Blokes with Aprons Say "Let's Do Lunch"

[decim]

Founding the first Grand Lodge
The first Grand Lodge, the Grand Lodge of England, was founded on the 24th, June, 1717 when four London 'lodges' met for a joint dinner, proclaiming themselves pre-eminent and assuming regulatory control over Freemasonry in England.

This spontaneous formation of the Grand Lodge understandably caused resentment amongst the other existing lodges of the time and ultimately lead to a schism in English Freemasonry that was not fully resolved until 1813 when the two rival groups formed the United Grand Lodge of England – the body which exists and co-ordinates English Freemasonry to this day.

In the mean time, the popularity of Freemasonry was spreading internationally. Grand Lodges were formed in Ireland in 1725 and Scotland in 1736. By the 1730’s Freemasonry had also been exported to the British Colonies in North America and, after the American Revolution, Grand Lodges began to form in each of the American states.

http://www.freemasonsvic.net.au/OurHistory/ABriefHistoryofFreemasonry/tabid/249/Default.aspx

[decim]

Danny Boy, PR & recruiter for the Ubiquitous Guffawing Lager Executive.

"After the Second World War, Masonic membership experienced a significant boom as men looked to maintain a sense of belonging and comradeship. Interest in Freemasonry is regularly revived by the works of historians or story tellers, most recently in 2003 returning to public interest when included in the fictional work, The Da Vinci Code, by novelist Dan Brown."

[boots]

Lodge Kilwinning...the Oldest Masonic Lodge in the World? http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/images/Mother_Lodge_Kilwinning_by_HP_Gray.jpg
Mother Kilwinning Lodge
Photo Courtesy of H.P. Gray
All Rights Reserved


Here is what Albert Mackey had to say about the dispute between the oldest Masonic lodge in the world being Edinburgh Lodge No. 1 or Mother Lodge 0 Kilwinning:

Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Page 517-518, 1929, published by The Masonic History Company:


"As the city of York claims to be the birthplace of Freemasonry in England, the obscure little village of Kilwinning is entitled to the same honor with respect to the origin of the Order in the sister kingdom of Scotland.
The claim to the honor, however, in each case depends on the bare authority of a legend, the authenticity of which is now doubted by many Masonic historians.
The Abbey of Kilwinning is situated in the bailiwick of Cunningham, about 3 miles north of the royal burgh of Irving, near the Irish Sea.
The abbey was founded in the year 1140, by Hugh Morville, Constable of Scotland, and dedicated to Saint Winning, being intended for a company of monks of the Tyronesian Order, who had been brought from Kelso.
The edifice must have been constructed at great expenses and with much magnificence, since it is said to have occupied several acres of ground in its whole extent.
Traveling Freemason Architects: Lawrie (History of Freemasonry, page 46, 1859 edition) says that, by authentic documents as well as by other collateral arguments which amount almost to a demonstration, the existence of the Kilwinning Lodge has been traced back as far as the end of the 15th century.
But we know that the body of architects who perambulated the Continent of Europe and have frequently been mentioned under the name of "Traveling Freemasons", flourished at a much earlier period; and we learn, also, from Lawrie himself, that several of these operative Freemasons traveled into Scotland, about the beginning of the 12th century.

Hence, we have every reason to suppose that these men were the architects who constructed the Abbey at Kilwinning, and who first established the Institution of Freemasonry in Scotland.
If such be the fact, we must place the origin of the first Lodge in that kingdom at an earlier date, by 3 centuries, than that claimed for it by Lawrie, which would bring it much nearer, in point of time, to the great Masonic Assembly, which is traditionally said to have been convened in the year 926, by Prince Edwin, at York, in England. (SeeOld Charges (http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/old-charges.html))"

[decim]

Great post boots, thanks for the link.

1717 made in China.

[boots]

Great post boots, thanks for the link.

1717 made in China.

No worries decim.

It's quite a good site. Straight from the horses mouth.;)

Hahaha, Made in China.


.

[mike martin]

Trust an Australian not know the history of Freemasonry either in England or America.
Founding the first Grand Lodge
The first Grand Lodge, the Grand Lodge of England, was founded on the 24th, June, 1717 when four London 'lodges' met for a joint dinner, proclaiming themselves pre-eminent and assuming regulatory control over Freemasonry in England.
Incorrect, the first or premier Grand Lodge proclaimed control ONLY over the cities of London and Westminster (yes they were separate back then). Lodges within an 8 mile radius were invited to join in. This original situation is represented by the Metropolitan Grand Lodge, which is the London version of a Masonic Province today.
This spontaneous formation of the Grand Lodge understandably caused resentment amongst the other existing lodges of the time and ultimately lead to a schism in English Freemasonry that was not fully resolved until 1813 when the two rival groups formed the United Grand Lodge of England – the body which exists and co-ordinates English Freemasonry to this day.
Nope, again! The Antients Grand Lodge (which went on to become part of the UGLE) was in fact formed in 1751 by mainly Irish Masons living in England. There are several versions of their reason for starting it, none of which are relevant except to people interested in Masonic history.
In the mean time, the popularity of Freemasonry was spreading internationally. Grand Lodges were formed in Ireland in 1725 and Scotland in 1736. By the 1730’s Freemasonry had also been exported to the British Colonies in North America and, after the American Revolution, Grand Lodges began to form in each of the American states.
Actually, there were initially Provincial Grand Lodges under the British (aka Home) Grand Lodges, after the American War of Independence they were cut loose and then formed themselves into Grand Lodges in their own right.

[kadosh]

Recommended reading:

A History of British Freemasonry 1425-2000 - http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/andrew_prescott.html

The Formation of American Grand Lodges 1777-1806 - http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/brentmorrisfr.html

[decim]

How many Cathedrals or similar had the 'group' who met at the Goose & GridIron, to proclaim the 'Moderns' form of masonry, built?

[mike martin]

How many Cathedrals or similar had the 'group' who met at the Goose & GridIron, to proclaim the 'Moderns' form of masonry, built?
None, they were speculative or Free and Accepted Masons.

Mike

[decim]

They sought the esoteric only, then?

None, they were speculative or Free and Accepted Masons.

Mike

[mike martin]

They sought the esoteric only, then?
Well yes.

Although do you understand what esoteric means? It is not the same thing as either "occult" or "mystical" which is what many non-Masons assume. Here are some definitions:

ESOT'ERIC, a. [Gr. interior, from within.] Private; an epithet applied to the private instructions and doctrines of Pythagoras; opposed to exoteric, or public.

Esoteric: A type of hidden knowledge that is generally known only by a few individuals and not by the general public.

esoteric adj1 restricted to or intended for an enlightened or initiated minority. 2 difficult to understand; abstruse 3 not openly admitted; private. ORIG from Gk. from esotero: inner

The Rituals of Freemasonry have moralistic lessons illustrated by the working tools of the Stone Mason but given an esoteric interpretation, here's an example the Working tools of an Entered Apprentice:
I now present to you the working tools of an Entered Apprentice Freemason: they are the 24-inch Gauge, the common Gavel, and Chisel. The 24-inch Gauge is to measure our work, the common Gavel to knock off all superfluous knobs and excrescences, and the Chisel to further smooth and prepare the stone and render it fit for the hands of the more expert workman. But, as we are not all operative Masons, but rather free and accepted or speculative, we apply these tools to our morals. In this sense, the 24-in Gauge represents the twenty-four hours of the day, part to be spent in prayer to Almighty God, part in labour and refreshment, and part in serving a friend or Brother in time of need, without detriment to ourselves or connections. The common Gavel represents the force of conscience, which should keep down all vain and unbecoming thoughts which might obtrude during any of the aforementioned periods, so that our words and actions may ascend unpolluted to the Throne of Grace. The Chisel points out to us the advantages of education, by which means alone we are rendered fit members of regularly organised Society.

First we are given the exoteric information followed by the esoteric or inner meaning.

Mike

[decim]

So by your admission, the righteous men (working free masons) who built the Cathedrals, etc, had their trade secrets & esoteric knowledge pilfered by the 18th century aristocracy?


Well yes.

Although do you understand what esoteric means? It is not the same thing as either "occult" or "mystical" which is what many non-Masons assume. Here are some definitions:

ESOT'ERIC, a. [Gr. interior, from within.] Private; an epithet applied to the private instructions and doctrines of Pythagoras; opposed to exoteric, or public.

Esoteric: A type of hidden knowledge that is generally known only by a few individuals and not by the general public.

esoteric adj1 restricted to or intended for an enlightened or initiated minority. 2 difficult to understand; abstruse 3 not openly admitted; private. ORIG from Gk. from esotero: inner

The Rituals of Freemasonry have moralistic lessons illustrated by the working tools of the Stone Mason but given an esoteric interpretation, here's an example the Working tools of an Entered Apprentice:

First we are given the exoteric information followed by the esoteric or inner meaning.

Mike

[veritasvoice]

This raises a question, based on Albert Pike's assertion that the degrees below the 33rd degree were used to conceal a Illuminati-aligned sub-order within the masons.

Speculating here, with a question for the masons on this forum - if this hypothetical situation occurred, would the lower 32 degrees or 33rd degree masons that did not choose to align themselves with this order still be bound by their masonic oaths not to harm or expose their brothers?

Hypothetically, would they see an esoteric order within freemasonry that had climbed the ladder of masonic initiation as still being fellow masons, or usurpers?

[decim]

veritasvoice, you'll find the non masonry 'masons' here will quote pike when it serves their purposes & deny him when anything detrimental might crop up.

[mike martin]

So by your admission, the righteous men (working free masons) who built the Cathedrals, etc, had their trade secrets & esoteric knowledge pilfered by the 18th century aristocracy?

Not even close! A system of moralising was started that used the Masons' tools and the symbolism of the building of King Solomon's Temple as a basis.

Mike

[mike martin]

This raises a question, based on Albert Pike's assertion that the degrees below the 33rd degree were used to conceal a Illuminati-aligned sub-order within the masons.
Sorry, this needs you to clarify your source before it can be sensibly be answered. The reason is that you may be working from one of the made-up quotes from Morals and Dogma (which I have corrected here a few times before) or you may be working from something new.

However, while you do that I'll mention that I haven't noticed Pike mention the "Illuminati" in any of his stuff that I've read.

Speculating here, with a question for the masons on this forum - if this hypothetical situation occurred, would the lower 32 degrees or 33rd degree masons that did not choose to align themselves with this order still be bound by their masonic oaths not to harm or expose their brothers?

Hypothetically, would they see an esoteric order within freemasonry that had climbed the ladder of masonic initiation as still being fellow masons, or usurpers?
I can only refer you back to the multitude of responses to the question similar to this that have been answered time after time right here on this forum previously.

Mike

[decim]

It is good to see you admit 'freemasons' are infact faux 'masons' as your degree system is neither 'free' nor do your group practice stone masonry. (Trade descriptions?)

What a charade,... a little music is in order.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Not even close! A system of moralising was started that used the Masons' tools and the symbolism of the building of King Solomon's Temple as a basis.

Mike

[mike martin]

It is good to see you admit 'freemasons' are infact faux 'masons' as your degree system is neither 'free' nor do your group practice stone masonry. (Trade descriptions?)

I think you just aren't considering the words properly. Nowhere does our title mention "stone" masonry, nor do we imply that it is free of charge to be a Mason.

The proper title is Free and Accepted Mason. We are free because we are not in bondage, we are accepted because we have been accepted into the Order and we are the Mason of our own ashlar.

Mike

[decim]

The 'Moderns' use the name Free Mason fraudulently, are you attempting to assert that the Craftsmen who actually were Masons & built stone buildings were in fact not Free Men & Accepted Masons?

Deception.

I think you just aren't considering the words properly. Nowhere does our title mention "stone" masonry, nor do we imply that it is free of charge to be a Mason.

The proper title is Free and Accepted Mason. We are free because we are not in bondage, we are accepted because we have been accepted into the Order and we are the Mason of our own ashlar.

Mike

[mike martin]

The 'Moderns' use the name Free Mason fraudulently, are you attempting to assert that the Craftsmen who actually were Masons & built stone buildings were in fact not Free Men & Accepted Masons?

Deception.
You are quite blatantly trying not to understand what is written in plain english.

I'll spell it out again. The term "Freemason" is a contraction of "Free and Accepted Mason", it is commonly used shorthand or slang.

Have a look at the title page of our Constitutions http://www.ugle.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/190308-cr-rule-2007.pdf then you'll see what I mean.

Mike

[decim]

It is you & yours that are obfuscating & deceptive.

Whatever 'permissions' Charters' 'Writs' or other legalese you use, they applied to 'Craftsmen' 'Stone Masons' not solicitors, publicans & social climbers looking to implant themselves enamoured with a club of Royal patronage.

You have admitted it, You are neither 'Craftsmen' nor 'Stone Masons'. You 'moderns' are Fakes.

Your 'group' merely appropriated another's esoteric knowledge & then usurped their position.

Your legalese jargon & 're-definitions' to suit, are smoke & mirrors for the fraud you perpetuate.

Fakes.

You are quite blatantly trying not to understand what is written in plain english.

I'll spell it out again. The term "Freemason" is a contraction of "Free and Accepted Mason", it is commonly used shorthand or slang.

Have a look at the title page of our Constitutions http://www.ugle.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/190308-cr-rule-2007.pdf then you'll see what I mean.

Mike

[mike martin]

some stuff

The Antient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons under the United Grand Lodge of England

There's no getting away from it. You have been misled up until this point but hey what does it really matter, now you understand where the term "Freemason" actually comes from.

Mike

[decim]

Fakes.

The Antient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons under the United Grand Lodge of England

There's no getting away from it. You have been misled up until this point but hey what does it really matter, now you understand where the term "Freemason" actually comes from.

Mike

[mike martin]

Fakes.

Sorry? Fake what exactly??

Mike

[decim]

You further admit the fraud.

Were the rights & privileges not in fact afforded to Actual Free Stone Masons, builders who actually built 'structures'? Yes of course they were.

Whatever 'permissions' Charters' 'Writs' or other legalese you use, they applied to 'Craftsmen' 'Stone Masons' not solicitors, publicans & social climbers looking to implant themselves enamoured with a club of Royal patronage.

It is true that 'moderns' non masons are frauds is'nt it, you have admitted as such, your words are clear to all.

Charade you are.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

As I have also written you have missed the point. We are not stone Masons! It is a system of moralising based on their tools and the building of King Solomon's Temple. The ashlar we work with is ourself.

Mike

Sorry? Fake what exactly??

Mike

[mike martin]

Repeated some stuff

So will I:

The Antient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons under the United Grand Lodge of England

There's no getting away from it. You have been misled up until this point but hey what does it really matter, now you understand where the term "Freemason" actually comes from.

Mike

[decim]

Did Antient Kings charter solicitors, publicans & candlestick makers?

Or Stone Masons Who Built Buildings.

FAKE.

So will I:
The Antient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons under the United Grand Lodge of England
There's no getting away from it. You have been misled up until this point but hey what does it really matter, now you understand where the term "Freemason" actually comes from.
Mike

[se19_london]

Did Antient Kings charter solicitors, publicans & candlestick makers?

Or Stone Masons Who Built Buildings.

FAKE.

bloody ell - how old are you fella?

[azaziel01]

he's probably about 8

[stevepenny]

Lodge Kilwinning...the Oldest Masonic Lodge in the World? http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/images/Mother_Lodge_Kilwinning_by_HP_Gray.jpg
Mother Kilwinning Lodge
Photo Courtesy of H.P. Gray
All Rights Reserved


Here is what Albert Mackey had to say about the dispute between the oldest Masonic lodge in the world being Edinburgh Lodge No. 1 or Mother Lodge 0 Kilwinning:

Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Page 517-518, 1929, published by The Masonic History Company:


"As the city of York claims to be the birthplace of Freemasonry in England, the obscure little village of Kilwinning is entitled to the same honor with respect to the origin of the Order in the sister kingdom of Scotland.
The claim to the honor, however, in each case depends on the bare authority of a legend, the authenticity of which is now doubted by many Masonic historians.
The Abbey of Kilwinning is situated in the bailiwick of Cunningham, about 3 miles north of the royal burgh of Irving, near the Irish Sea.
The abbey was founded in the year 1140, by Hugh Morville, Constable of Scotland, and dedicated to Saint Winning, being intended for a company of monks of the Tyronesian Order, who had been brought from Kelso.
The edifice must have been constructed at great expenses and with much magnificence, since it is said to have occupied several acres of ground in its whole extent.
Traveling Freemason Architects: Lawrie (History of Freemasonry, page 46, 1859 edition) says that, by authentic documents as well as by other collateral arguments which amount almost to a demonstration, the existence of the Kilwinning Lodge has been traced back as far as the end of the 15th century.
But we know that the body of architects who perambulated the Continent of Europe and have frequently been mentioned under the name of "Traveling Freemasons", flourished at a much earlier period; and we learn, also, from Lawrie himself, that several of these operative Freemasons traveled into Scotland, about the beginning of the 12th century.

Hence, we have every reason to suppose that these men were the architects who constructed the Abbey at Kilwinning, and who first established the Institution of Freemasonry in Scotland.
If such be the fact, we must place the origin of the first Lodge in that kingdom at an earlier date, by 3 centuries, than that claimed for it by Lawrie, which would bring it much nearer, in point of time, to the great Masonic Assembly, which is traditionally said to have been convened in the year 926, by Prince Edwin, at York, in England. (SeeOld Charges (http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/old-charges.html))"

Hi Boots,

This has long been debated in Scotland. Lodge Perth and Scoon No3 can possibly claim to be older based on the date of the building of Scoon Abbey in 1114 to 1115AD. Although this is not borne out by Lodge records it has long been held that a Lodge of operative Masons could have existed during the period of construction, thus pre-dating Kilwinning.

[stevepenny]

Danny Boy, PR & recruiter for the Ubiquitous Guffawing Lager Executive.

"After the Second World War, Masonic membership experienced a significant boom as men looked to maintain a sense of belonging and comradeship...

Another myth....try reading 'Masonic Membership Myths Debunked' by John L. Belton, published in Heredom Volume 9, 2001, pp 9-32.

[stevepenny]

veritasvoice, you'll find the non masonry 'masons' here will quote pike when it serves their purposes & deny him when anything detrimental might crop up.

Yet another myth.....this is getting boring ;)

Pike was only concerned with Freemasonry in the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. He is neither authoratative nor an accepted commentator on Freemasonry in the United Kingdom.

[stevepenny]

Did Antient Kings charter solicitors, publicans & candlestick makers?

Or Stone Masons Who Built Buildings.

FAKE.

Actually they did, in all three instances; along with Apothecaries, Armourers & Brasiers (armour-makers and workers in brass).
Bakers
Barbers (also surgeons and dentists)
Basketmakers
Blacksmiths
Bowyers (longbow makers)
Broderers (embroiderers)
Butchers
Carpenters
Chandlers (candle makers)
Clothworkers
Cordwainers (workers in fine leather)
Curriers (dressers of tanned leather)
Cutlers
Dyers
Farriers (shoers of horses)
Fishmongers
Fletchers (arrow makers)
Girdlers (girdles and belts as clothing)
Goldsmiths
Loriners (stirrups and other harness for horses)
Masons
Mercers (general merchants)
Needlemakers
Pattenmakers (makers of wooden clog-style footwear)
Plaisterers (plasterers)
Plumbers
Poulters
Saddlers
Salters
Scriveners (Lawyers and writers of court letters and legal documents)
Skinners
Tallow chandlers (Candle makers)
Upholders (upholsterers)
Vintners
Wax Chandlers ( candle makers)
Weavers
Wheelwrights
and Woolmen (winders and packers of wool)

When you have had enough of this dis-information please feel free to stop.

[decim]

Straight from the Goat's mouth at masonicdisinfo.coms own internet fable fabrication department...

Fake Masons? Counterfeit Freemasonry. What's THAT all about anyway? People don't really just 'pretend' to be Masons, do they?They wouldn't just start a group and call themselves something they aren't....

Well, yes - in some cases they do! (moderns ugle is such) Even at the formation of the very first Grand Lodge was an imitator, dissenter, and were mainly merely idle 'troublemakers'. Why? A variety of reasons but usually spite, a strong desire for self-aggrandizement and/or personal greed seem to top the list.

All three are strong motivators, particularly when someone feels that they can bring themselves greater personal recognition and reward.Today, they can use the internet to create what appears to be 'the real deal' - but better - so that the unsuspecting who want to actually become Masons will wind up giving them money(and praise) instead.

There are also those who create such organizations as a 'front' for other nefarious deeds, usually criminal. Long before telemarketing and telephones, Masonic degree peddling was a VERY lucrative business, making scam artists a pretty penny. Today with the internet, such scams grow and flourish! As with telemarketing, these spurious groups (ugle rgle) do LOTS of dancing around trying to claim "We are legitimate!" (ugle rgle) while regular, 'recognized' Grand Lodges merely go about their business.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/fakemasonry.htm

FAKE

[agneau]

Straight from the Goat's mouth at masonicdisinfo.coms own internet fable fabrication department...

http://www.masonicinfo.com/fakemasonry.htm

FAKE

...er, does that mean you think that it is true or not true? If you consider that source to be the 'fabrication dept', then presuambly you think that what they write it NOT true - yet you offer it as proof of your own theory...

I think I'm nearly as confused as you are.

Try again.

[stevepenny]

Straight from the Goat's mouth at masonicdisinfo.coms own internet fable fabrication department...

Fake Masons? Counterfeit Freemasonry. What's THAT all about anyway? People don't really just 'pretend' to be Masons, do they?They wouldn't just start a group and call themselves something they aren't....

Well, yes - in some cases they do! (moderns ugle is such) Even at the formation of the very first Grand Lodge was an imitator, dissenter, and were mainly merely idle 'troublemakers'. Why? A variety of reasons but usually spite, a strong desire for self-aggrandizement and/or personal greed seem to top the list.

All three are strong motivators, particularly when someone feels that they can bring themselves greater personal recognition and reward.Today, they can use the internet to create what appears to be 'the real deal' - but better - so that the unsuspecting who want to actually become Masons will wind up giving them money(and praise) instead.

There are also those who create such organizations as a 'front' for other nefarious deeds, usually criminal. Long before telemarketing and telephones, Masonic degree peddling was a VERY lucrative business, making scam artists a pretty penny. Today with the internet, such scams grow and flourish! As with telemarketing, these spurious groups (ugle rgle) do LOTS of dancing around trying to claim "We are legitimate!" (ugle rgle) while regular, 'recognized' Grand Lodges merely go about their business.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/fakemasonry.htm

FAKE

I don't know whether I just dislike you or pity you...

Perhaps one day you'll be old enough to make an adult comment devoid of all the lies and disinformation that you spout.

Ahh.. the SPOUTER OF LIES, now where did I just read that?

As you're probably not old enough to understand, it is a rhetorical question.

[decim]

Your gang's time is coming to an end, A world without zionism.

Consigned to the past along with your cosa nostra.


I don't know whether I just dislike you or pity you...

Perhaps one day you'll be old enough to make an adult comment devoid of all the lies and disinformation that you spout.

Ahh.. the SPOUTER OF LIES, now where did I just read that?

As you're probably not old enough to understand, it is a rhetorical question.

[stevepenny]

Your gang's time is coming to an end, A world without zionism.

Consigned to the past along with your cosa nostra.

Come the revolution you will be the FIRST one up against the wall ;)

[decim]

Well that's quite an offer Steven.

However I am not into non masonry masons amdram 'activities'.

Come the revolution you will be the FIRST one up against the wall ;)

[stevepenny]

Well that's quite an offer Steven.

However I am not into non masonry masons amdram 'activities'.

I was thinking more of giving the goat the first shot ;)

[decim]

Although the Goat is a slightly more attractive proposition, I would still be compelled to to decline your offer to partake in non masonry masonic 'games'.

I hope you understand.

I was thinking more of giving the goat the first shot ;)

[se19_london]

Straight from the Goat's mouth at masonicdisinfo.coms own internet fable fabrication department...

Fake Masons? Counterfeit Freemasonry. What's THAT all about anyway? People don't really just 'pretend' to be Masons, do they?They wouldn't just start a group and call themselves something they aren't....

Well, yes - in some cases they do! (moderns ugle is such) Even at the formation of the very first Grand Lodge was an imitator, dissenter, and were mainly merely idle 'troublemakers'. Why? A variety of reasons but usually spite, a strong desire for self-aggrandizement and/or personal greed seem to top the list.

All three are strong motivators, particularly when someone feels that they can bring themselves greater personal recognition and reward.Today, they can use the internet to create what appears to be 'the real deal' - but better - so that the unsuspecting who want to actually become Masons will wind up giving them money(and praise) instead.

There are also those who create such organizations as a 'front' for other nefarious deeds, usually criminal. Long before telemarketing and telephones, Masonic degree peddling was a VERY lucrative business, making scam artists a pretty penny. Today with the internet, such scams grow and flourish! As with telemarketing, these spurious groups (ugle rgle) do LOTS of dancing around trying to claim "We are legitimate!" (ugle rgle) while regular, 'recognized' Grand Lodges merely go about their business.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/fakemasonry.htm

FAKE

Errrrrm - excuse my ignorance.....but is that not a TOTAL contradiction on your part???! :S

[decim]

You are excused.

Errrrrm - excuse my ignorance.....but is that not a TOTAL contradiction on your part???! :S

[se19_london]

You are excused.

all well and good playing the clever dick mate.........

but you write nonsense....then try and mug everyone else off for it.....

weirdo.

[stevepenny]

Although the Goat is a slightly more attractive proposition, I would still be compelled to to decline your offer to partake in non masonry masonic 'games'.

I hope you understand.

I understand but the goat is a wee bit upset. What time is it in the sunshine state at the moment?

Or am I getting my states mixed up?

[decim]

Aye, you got the Continents mixed up.

IP searching, is ma lesion in charge of that? Figures...

I understand but the goat is a wee bit upset. What time is it in the sunshine state at the moment?

Or am I getting my states mixed up?

[stevepenny]

Aye, you got the Continents mixed up.

IP searching, is ma lesion in charge of that? Figures...

Not according to your myspace page

[decim]

Go on then I'll bite, as I don't have any 'page', should be good for a laugh..there's no goats are there....link?

Not according to your myspace page

[stevepenny]

Go on then I'll bite, as I don't have any 'page', should be good for a laugh..there's no goats are there....link?

Then somebody is stealing your thunder...but sadly no goats ;)

[decim]

Same nickname?

Then somebody is stealing your thunder...but sadly no goats ;)

[decim]

Announcement on behalf of the Antient & Accepted Freemechanics.

We don't actually work on Engines per se, we use the tools of the Mechanic, the Spanner, the Hammer & the Teapot, these are symbolic of the first Engine built by King Fingelgreuver, which was destroyed by rabid leprechauns in 70minCD.
We work on our inner Engine, gradually tuning it, until by the grace of God we have an inner V12 Supercharged Engine of Gloriousness worthy of the Sacred Lost Word 'TURBO'.
We were granted a charter in 1717 by a notorious barmaid known as Mary Jane Rotten Crotch in the Cat & Crab Paste pub, formerly situated on Great Stickle Brick street, in Hull.
This charter was given Royal assent by the invading alien King known as Khang III- -9091 - 1632.
Our secrets are manifold one day we hope to rebuild the great Engine of King Fingelgreuver in the Whally land.

This is known as the 'Great Smirk'.

Any resemblance to the ugle freemasons is purely coincidental.

Nb. I might add that our degree system is worked by means of a Strobe light, we are either advanced or slightly retarded depending on the level of 'Ignition', this ignition requires the 'Secret Key of FlatFoot.', in this respect only is freemasonry similar to our fraternity.

[stevepenny]

...we are either advanced or slightly retarded...

Great post :)

[decim]

You have exhibited the required 'qualities' are you presenting yourself as a candidate for mysteries of the Antient & Accepted Freemechanics?

Great post :)