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nosferatu_dj
14-10-2009, 12:17 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/science/space/13lhc.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all

The Collider, the Particle and a Theory About Fate

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/10/12/science/13lhc-600.jpg Martial Trezzini/European Pressphoto Agency
SUICIDE MISSION? The core of the superconducting solenoid magnet at the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland.





By DENNIS OVERBYE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/dennis_overbye/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: October 12, 2009
More than a year after an explosion of sparks, soot and frigid helium shut it down, the world’s biggest and most expensive physics experiment, known as the Large Hadron Collider (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/large_hadron_collider/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), is poised to start up again. In December, if all goes well, protons will start smashing together in an underground racetrack outside Geneva in a search for forces and particles that reigned during the first trillionth of a second of the Big Bang.
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Then it will be time to test one of the most bizarre and revolutionary theories in science. I’m not talking about extra dimensions of space-time, dark matter (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/dark_matter/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) or even black holes that eat the Earth. No, I’m talking about the notion that the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its own future. A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.
Holger Bech Nielsen, of the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, and Masao Ninomiya of the Yukawa Institute for Theoretical Physics in Kyoto, Japan, put this idea forward in a series of papers with titles like “Test of Effect From Future in Large Hadron Collider: a Proposal” and “Search for Future Influence From LHC,” posted on the physics Web site arXiv.org (http://arxiv.org/) in the last year and a half.
According to the so-called Standard Model that rules almost all physics, the Higgs is responsible for imbuing other elementary particles with mass.
“It must be our prediction that all Higgs producing machines shall have bad luck,” Dr. Nielsen said in an e-mail message. In an unpublished essay, Dr. Nielson said of the theory, “Well, one could even almost say that we have a model for God.” It is their guess, he went on, “that He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them.”
This malign influence from the future, they argue, could explain why the United States Superconducting Supercollider, also designed to find the Higgs, was canceled in 1993 after billions of dollars had already been spent, an event so unlikely that Dr. Nielsen calls it an “anti-miracle.”
You might think that the appearance of this theory is further proof that people have had ample time — perhaps too much time — to think about what will come out of the collider, which has been 15 years and $9 billion in the making.
The collider was built by CERN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/cern/index.html?inline=nyt-org), the European Organization for Nuclear Research, to accelerate protons to energies of seven trillion electron volts around an 18-mile underground racetrack and then crash them together into primordial fireballs.
For the record, as of the middle of September, CERN engineers hope to begin to collide protons at the so-called injection energy of 450 billion electron volts in December and then ramp up the energy until the protons have 3.5 trillion electron volts of energy apiece and then, after a short Christmas break, real physics can begin.
Maybe.
Dr. Nielsen and Dr. Ninomiya started laying out their case for doom in the spring of 2008. It was later that fall, of course, after the CERN collider was turned on, that a connection between two magnets vaporized, shutting down the collider for more than a year.
Dr. Nielsen called that “a funny thing that could make us to believe in the theory of ours.”
He agreed that skepticism would be in order. After all, most big science projects, including the Hubble Space Telescope (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/hubble_space_telescope/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), have gone through a period of seeming jinxed. At CERN, the beat goes on: Last weekend the French police arrested a particle physicist who works on one of the collider experiments, on suspicion of conspiracy with a North African wing of Al Qaeda.
Dr. Nielsen and Dr. Ninomiya have proposed a kind of test: that CERN engage in a game of chance, a “card-drawing” exercise using perhaps a random-number generator, in order to discern bad luck from the future. If the outcome was sufficiently unlikely, say drawing the one spade in a deck with 100 million hearts, the machine would either not run at all, or only at low energies unlikely to find the Higgs.
Sure, it’s crazy, and CERN should not and is not about to mortgage its investment to a coin toss. The theory was greeted on some blogs (http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/07/21/respectable-physicists-gone-crackpotty/) with comparisons to Harry Potter (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/complete_coverage/harry_potter/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). But craziness has a fine history in a physics that talks routinely about cats being dead and alive at the same time and about anti-gravity puffing out the universe.
As Niels Bohr (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/niels_bohr/index.html?inline=nyt-per), Dr. Nielsen’s late countryman and one of the founders of quantum theory, once told a colleague: “We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct.”
Dr. Nielsen is well-qualified in this tradition. He is known in physics as one of the founders of string theory and a deep and original thinker, “one of those extremely smart people that is willing to chase crazy ideas pretty far,” in the words of Sean Carroll, a Caltech physicist and author of a coming book about time, “From Eternity to Here.”
Another of Dr. Nielsen’s projects is an effort to show how the universe as we know it, with all its apparent regularity, could arise from pure randomness, a subject he calls “random dynamics.”
Dr. Nielsen admits that he and Dr. Ninomiya’s new theory smacks of time travel, a longtime interest, which has become a respectable research subject (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DEFDA143AF93BA15755C0A9639C8B 63) in recent years. While it is a paradox to go back in time and kill your grandfather, physicists agree there is no paradox if you go back in time and save him from being hit by a bus. In the case of the Higgs and the collider, it is as if something is going back in time to keep the universe from being hit by a bus. Although just why the Higgs would be a catastrophe is not clear. If we knew, presumably, we wouldn’t be trying to make one.
We always assume that the past influences the future. But that is not necessarily true in the physics of Newton or Einstein. According to physicists, all you really need to know, mathematically, to describe what happens to an apple or the 100 billion galaxies of the universe over all time are the laws that describe how things change and a statement of where things start. The latter are the so-called boundary conditions — the apple five feet over your head, or the Big Bang.
The equations work just as well, Dr. Nielsen and others point out, if the boundary conditions specify a condition in the future (the apple on your head) instead of in the past, as long as the fundamental laws of physics are reversible, which most physicists believe they are.
“For those of us who believe in physics,” Einstein once wrote to a friend, “this separation between past, present and future is only an illusion.”
In Kurt Vonnegut (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/v/kurt_vonnegut/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s novel “Sirens of Titan,” all of human history turns out to be reduced to delivering a piece of metal roughly the size and shape of a beer-can opener to an alien marooned on Saturn’s moon so he can repair his spaceship and go home.
Whether the collider has such a noble or humble fate — or any fate at all — remains to be seen. As a Red Sox fan my entire adult life, I feel I know something about jinxes.

jiffy
14-10-2009, 01:35 AM
Or it is just a load of sudo science, my guess they will smash protons together and then find yet more smaller (what ever name they wish to call them)particles

The more you read about physics and Cosmology the more you realize, scientist are so cognitive it's a joke.

Dark matter, dark energy "Invented" to fit in to known laws of gravity.
God forbid Newton was wrong!!!!!!


The most important question that science never wants to answer is.......how do you get Consciousness of of non conscious matter;)

microverses
14-10-2009, 03:10 AM
so the higgs particle will prevent itself from being observed by mankind by altering the past from the future. we can call it time travel, although i feel that's a crude way to describe the actual events.

what would the implications of this be? I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is that this could serve as proof that time is not a continuous, blanket that covers all of created matter within our 5 sense prison.

I do think that LHC will be successful this go around though, will it find the 'god' particle? Time will tell, or maybe it won't.

bulletproofheart
14-10-2009, 03:12 AM
That thing is just a Christmas decoration,Im sure all this stuff is already possible.

davew
14-10-2009, 09:01 AM
Or it is just a load of sudo science, my guess they will smash protons together and then find yet more smaller (what ever name they wish to call them)particles

The more you read about physics and Cosmology the more you realize, scientist are so cognitive it's a joke.

Dark matter, dark energy "Invented" to fit in to known laws of gravity.
God forbid Newton was wrong!!!!!!


The most important question that science never wants to answer is.......how do you get Consciousness of of non conscious matter;)

.. Did matter create mind, or did mind create matter?

elysiumfire
14-10-2009, 09:21 AM
The reason for colliding particles at greater energetic impacts than ever reached before is to see what simply appears at that level of energy. It's as simple as that.

The energy that was apparent within the first few nano-seconds of the Big Bang meant that the particles we are familiar with today did not yet exist, conditions had to cool down before they could appear. As the conditions started to cool, quite rapidly, the belief is that the 'Higgs Boson' (yet to be verified) appeared and was responsible for imparting 'mass' to other energy constituents as they themselves appeared during further cooling.

With the LHC, it is thought that by producing an impact between particles taken up to 3.5 trillion electron volts each, out of the 7 trillion electron volt collision the 'Higgs' will appear but will decay very rapidly as it dissipates its energy (as mass) to other particles that appear during the very rapid cooling process. To my understanding, that is what they hope to capture...evidence of the Higgs at that level of energy.

The concern is that in creating such colossal energies, other exotic energetic phenomena (such as micro black holes) may appear which may sustain long enough to cause damage to either the local environment, or even to the planet as a whole. The CERN experimenters acknowledge a small risk, but are confident that the odds are stacked in their favour for containing anything 'exotic' that may appear.

mr e man
14-10-2009, 10:02 AM
Would be one of the most and incredible and final things witnessed on TV. The Mountain range above the collider being sucked inside its self like an inside-out sock:rolleyes:

ben black
14-10-2009, 11:31 AM
Maybe they'll strike it lucky on 23rd december 2012?

anahata
14-10-2009, 11:37 AM
.. Did matter create mind, or did mind create matter?

Maybe they evolved together from antimatter?

jiffy
14-10-2009, 03:55 PM
.. Did matter create mind, or did mind create matter?

Exadamondo :D

atredies
14-10-2009, 04:44 PM
Would be one of the most and incredible and final things witnessed on TV. The Mountain range above the collider being sucked inside its self like an inside-out sock:rolleyes:

That reminds me of the LHC webcam :eek:
http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

concordewarrior
14-10-2009, 04:57 PM
How about the Large Hadron rap?

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

:)

So what is the Higgs boson?

What is the LHC about? What will it do?
How will they use it? What are they trying to find and why?

Will they find a way to make unlimited electricity that we all can get for free by some sort of fusion?

Calling on particle physics geeks and specialists to answer my questions. :)

cruise4
14-10-2009, 05:43 PM
Maybe it's to take out the holographic projecter? It's certainly nothing to do with anything generally believed.

white rabbit
14-10-2009, 05:54 PM
I think it will explode(burn or freeze) the area, nothing will happend to the world, but the people there..... :(