Is your councillor a freemason?

[free thinker]

FREEMASONRY is still alive and well among councillors in North Devon and Torridge, according to a survey by the North Devon Journal .

This newspaper asked every member of North Devon Council and Torridge District Council if they were a freemason.

Some 11% of councillors said they were members of the society — and more members said they had been freemasons in the past.

But freemason Phil Daniel (Cons) was not sure if it was in the public interest to report he was a member.

He added: "I have never kept it secret that I am a mason, in fact I am proud to be one, especially in the light of all the good charity work that we do. Did you know that a UK lodge raised a million pounds in one year for a particular charity?
more here http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/news/councillor-freemason/article-1398637-detail/article.html

[mike martin]

Hmmm

There are five freemasons on North Devon Council (out of 42 members) and four at Torridge (out of 36 members). In addition to the nine active members, there are at least three former members, meaning that about 15% of the councillor have been, or are, freemasons.

Mike

[hirschfelder]

Why the hmmmm?

[free thinker]

Your Avatar is from the film Kes i see.:)

[barney_rubble]

Hmmm


There are five freemasons on North Devon Council (out of 42 members) and four at Torridge (out of 36 members). In addition to the nine active members, there are at least three former members, meaning that about 15% of the councillor have been, or are, freemasons.

Mike

Is that high of low compared to the general public.
In my jurisdiction (Ontario Canada) about 1.5 of the eligible men are Freemasons.

The above stats would indicate that 11.5% of the council are active masons.

In my jurisdiction that would be high.

[grandsecretary]

Is that high of low compared to the general public.
In my jurisdiction (Ontario Canada) about 1.5 of the eligible men are Freemasons.

The above stats would indicate that 11.5% of the council are active masons.

In my jurisdiction that would be high.

Who cares?

[keystone]

Who cares?OMG don't tell me I'm going to spend this evening agreeing with him? :D

Yes - who cares?

Cheers

[lycan]

This newspaper asked every member of North Devon Council and Torridge District Council if they were a freemason.

Some 11% of councillors said they were members of the society — and more members said they had been freemasons in the past.


Such is life.

Did they ask how many eat meat or who is a folder or crasher when using the toilet paper??

[keystone]

Your Avatar is from the film Kes i see.:)Hmm - I asked that once before and never got an answer! Great film.

Cheers

[zebede]

I distinctly remember when I found out my councillor was a freemason. Then I realised it made sense, only one so buried up his own arse would be a mason.


Still, if he thinks he will find his answer in a hollow instiution, so be it.

I think it must have been the dressing up he liked so much.

Queer fellow.

[keystone]

I distinctly remember when I found out my councillor was a freemason. Then I realised it made sense, only one so buried up his own arse would be a mason.


Still, if he thinks he will find his answer in a hollow instiution, so be it.

I think it must have been the dressing up he liked so much.

Queer fellow.Yes OK - nerver mind. You made sense in your first couple of posts since becoming a member but seem to have dissolved into a gibbering idiot since ariving in this sub-forum. Temporary aberration I'm sure.

Cheers

[cheeney1]

OMG don't tell me I'm going to spend this evening agreeing with him? :D

Yes - who cares?

Cheers

well someone should, You lot are all Acting like tossers One for all all complete twats,

Threads on the Same Ole Shit Round and Round The Merry Go Round and nothing gets proven nor settled :rolleyes:

[mike martin]

Threads on the Same Ole Shit Round and Round The Merry Go Round and nothing gets proven nor settled :rolleyes:
You know, you make an excellent point and one that I made when I first arrived on this Forum.

It is common practise in English Law that the "accuser" must prove that the "accused" is guilty of the charge(s) made either to a Judge or a Jury (not to sympathisers), hence the burden of proof lays with the conspiracy theorists making the claims. It is very difficult for anyone to disprove an "argument from ignorance" or an "argument from personal incredulity" which are how the claims made here regarding Freemasonry are generally laid.

No one here has managed to prove any charge against Freemasonry (individual Masons yes but Freemasonry no) they just keep on recycling and repeating the same old unsubstantiated claims based on the actions of a handful of Masons (over the course of several centuries) and misquotes from our Rituals and books about Freemasonry.

Take this topic for example, there is no hint of any of these Councillors being involved in any kind of wrongdoing. They have, in fact, only become journalistic and thereby conspiracy "targets" because they are members of the world's oldest Fraternity.

Have a think about it, I wish some people on here would.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

All postings by me on this thread have been suspended. I am sorry but I am precluded for legal reasons.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England

[zyphus]

No one here has managed to prove any charge against Freemasonry (individual Masons yes but Freemasonry no) they just keep on recycling and repeating the same old unsubstantiated claims based on the actions of a handful of Masons (over the course of several centuries) and misquotes from our Rituals and books about Freemasonry.


Mike

I think the greatest charge levelled against the Masons is the Hanoverian infiltration in the 1700's. Surprisingly, this is very rarely brought up, if ever.

What is your take on this Mike? Did you enter Free Masonry fully aware that you were being initiated into a Germanic order?

[mike martin]

I think the greatest charge levelled against the Masons is the Hanoverian infiltration in the 1700's. Surprisingly, this is very rarely brought up, if ever.

What is your take on this Mike? Did you enter Free Masonry fully aware that you were being initiated into a Germanic order?

Well as the other bloke says! It's a red herring. Served up by GS.

The UGLE is not a Germanic Order and you only have to look at the events of 1751 and 1813 to recognise that. Even if the Premier Grand Lodge (1717) did have hanoverian sympathies, the Antients Grand Lodge (1751) certainly didn't! Which is why some Masonic historians have labelled it as "jacobite".

The UGLE is the culmination of both those Grand Lodges not one or the other, it is a blend of both their Ceremonies and ethos. Hence NO POLITICS to be discussed in our Lodges.

Mike

[zyphus]

Well as the other bloke says! It's a red herring. Served up by GS.


Why do you just assume that I found the information through GS? Très bizarre..


The UGLE is not a Germanic Order and you only have to look at the events of 1751 and 1813 to recognise that.


Well, this would take a whole new thread altogether, and a very interesting one it would be indeed.

Can I ask you though Mike, who is the Grand Patroness of world Free Masonry? It's not a Hanoverian descendent by any chance is it?

[mike martin]

Why do you just assume that I found the information through GS? Très bizarre..
Sorry I didn't assume, I (rightly or wrongly) surmised based on the fact that GS is the only person I've come across in the last 10 years making the claim.
Well, this would take a whole new thread altogether, and a very interesting one it would be indeed.
Quite right but I'm also sure that it would be a hard one to wade through as you'd have to supply plenty of background info to the claim.
Can I ask you though Mike, who is the Grand Patroness of world Free Masonry? It's not a Hanoverian descendent by any chance is it?
Yes you can. The answer is very simple, there is no such person. I shall explain.

1) Neither the UGLE nor the GLoS have such a person. Our Charities have a Grand Patron but that is our Grand Master the Duke of Kent. I am sorry to report that HM the Queen has no stronger connection to Freemasons than she has to any other Loyal (non-Forces) citizens.

2) We have only had one Grand Patron of Freemasonry, back in 1830 for a short period of time King William IV had that title which may have made his wife a Grand Patroness.

2) Even if HM the Queen was a "grand patroness", there is no such thing as "world Freemasonry" for her to be grand patroness of. I'm sure that you will have noticed from here that each and every Grand Lodge is a sovereign and independent body.

Mike

[zyphus]

Sorry I didn't assume, I (rightly or wrongly) surmised based on the fact that GS is the only person I've come across in the last 10 years making the claim.

Well I assumed, seeing as you are on the David Icke forum, that you would be at least familiar with the charges he has levelled against Freemasonry. I.e. The Hanoverian Bloodline influence.


1) Neither the UGLE nor the GLoS have such a person. Our Charities have a Grand Patron but that is our Grand Master the Duke of Kent. I am sorry to report that HM the Queen has no stronger connection to Freemasons than she has to any other Loyal (non-Forces) citizens.

2) We have only had one Grand Patron of Freemasonry, back in 1830 for a short period of time King William IV had that title which may have made his wife a Grand Patroness.

2) Even if HM the Queen was a "grand patroness", there is no such thing as "world Freemasonry" for her to be grand patroness of. I'm sure that you will have noticed from here that each and every Grand Lodge is a sovereign and independent body.

Mike

O.k. fair do's Mike. I don't know where I read that the Queen is the Grand Patroness of World Freemasonry, and it was a bit loose on my behalf, granted.

But... Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, is the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England. He is also the first cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. Queen Elizabeth II is of hanoverian descent, of that there is absolutely no doubt. So it would also seem that the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England is also of Hanoverian descent. A placemen.

Could we absolutely clarify this through Burkes Peerage?

[mike martin]

Well I assumed, seeing as you are on the David Icke forum, that you would be at least familiar with the charges he has levelled against Freemasonry. I.e. The Hanoverian Bloodline influence.
Oh dear are you going all "Biggest Secret" on me? You did notice I said last 10 years didn't you? You may have noticed I find it boring when people recycle old theories and present them as new.

O.k. fair do's Mike. I don't know where I read that the Queen is the Grand Patroness of World Freemasonry, and it was a bit loose on my behalf, granted.
No fuss, I first came across it on a VOMIT related website (possible Freemasonrywatch) about a decade ago. Seemed quite reasonable until I actually thought about what they were actually claiming.

But... Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, is the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England. He is also the first cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. Queen Elizabeth II is of hanoverian descent, of that there is absolutely no doubt. So it would also seem that the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England is also of Hanoverian descent. A placemen.

You may have noticed that I used some phrases earlier, I would suggest researching the term "argument from personal incredulity" cos that's what you have just (re-) presented.

The fact that the Duke of Kent, our present Grand Master, is a member of the family/dynasty proves what about Freemasonry? What it proves is that we try to have a member of the Royal Family as our Grand Master and at present that means it has to be a Hanoverian. This will also be further proven when the DoK steps downs as no other Royals are intested in Freemasonry.

Mike

[zyphus]

Oh dear are you going all "Biggest Secret" on me? You did notice I said last 10 years didn't you? You may have noticed I find it boring when people recycle old theories and present them as new.

Only in the last couple or few years have I genuinely started to research Freemasonry, for no other reason out of curiosity, and now I have the chance to correspond with actual Freemasons on the subject. I read Icke's book when it first came out, but I was far too involved in other things anyway to give it much energy, although the one thing I did remember was the Hanoverian Bloodline infiltration theory into Freemasonry. Try and give me a little wider birth Mike.

No fuss, I first came across it on a VOMIT related website (possible Freemasonrywatch) about a decade ago. Seemed quite reasonable until I actually thought about what they were actually claiming.

Cool ;)

You may have noticed that I used some phrases earlier, I would suggest researching the term "argument from personal incredulity" cos that's what you have just (re-) presented.

That is a quite ridiculous notion. See below.

The fact that the Duke of Kent, our present Grand Master, is a member of the family/dynasty proves what about Freemasonry?

Mike

That there is undoubtedly an Hanoverian influence right from the top down in UGLE Freemasonry. Self explanatory really.

It is therefore ruled by a descendent of the Hanoverian bloodline. It can't be more clear.

[mike martin]

Try and give me a little wider birth Mike.
As it goes, I'm sorry for that, I was showing off.

What you don't know about me is that my interest in Freemasonry started in the early 80s when I read a book called "the Brotherhood" by Stephen Knight and I was actually on the other side of the fence. Fortunately I have a bit of intelligence and am able to research things for myself.

That is a quite ridiculous notion. See below.

That there is undoubtedly an Hanoverian influence right from the top down in UGLE Freemasonry. Self explanatory really.

It is therefore ruled by a descendent of the Hanoverian bloodline. It can't be more clear.

Let me put it this way for you.

I am Freemason. I am approaching the 16th anniversary of my initiation. In conspiracy terminology, I am not a low level Freemason being both a Master Mason and a Past Master (Mark Master, Royal Arch etc don't actually make me any higher). I also work within the Grand Lodge building so on a daily basis I mingle with the big names.

Although I have met the DoK twice as a Mason and sit in Grand Lodge when he presides, I am not a Hanoverian and neither are any of my brethren. So on what do you base the claim of a "hanoverian influence"?

I think the problem is that non-Masons put too much emphasis on the Grand Master as the power. In reality the Grand Secretary has far more influence within a Grand Lodge.

Mike

[barney_rubble]

Is that high of low compared to the general public.
In my jurisdiction (Ontario Canada) about 1.5 of the eligible men are Freemasons.

The above stats would indicate that 11.5% of the council are active masons.

In my jurisdiction that would be high.

Who cares?

I didn't start the numbers game.
I was just responding to Mike Martins statistics.

I only responded because i had the stats fresh in my mind for the eligible individuals (based on age and sex alone) in my jurisdiction who are currently Freemasons.

To be honest I don't not really care which councilors are Freemasons; or for that matter i don't care which plumbers, garbage collectors, teachers, policemen or Wal-mart greeters are Freemasons.

I do however want to know if any of them are Odd-Fellows.

[zyphus]

I was halfway through a reply, but I've been summoned :D

I would like to carry on discussing this as it's interesting to me, and hopefully we can do it as Man to Man and not Man to Mason.

Minus a few sly insinuations would be nice also Mike.

Have a good night. For now :)

[zebede]

Yes OK - nerver mind. You made sense in your first couple of posts since becoming a member but seem to have dissolved into a gibbering idiot since ariving in this sub-forum. Temporary aberration I'm sure.

Cheers


You seem to have a cage rattling. Deep breaths, it will be ok.

[mike martin]

I would like to carry on discussing this as it's interesting to me, and hopefully we can do it as Man to Man and not Man to Mason.
I'm quite happy to, Freemasonry is rather important to me. However, if you're after knowledge rather than an argument, you'll notice that they're the same thing (I did)

Minus a few sly insinuations would be nice also Mike.
Ah now I apologised for being snotty already.

ttfn

Mike

[mike martin]

I do however want to know if any of them are Odd-Fellows.
I'm more concerned about the Knights of St Columbanus and the Hibernians myself.:eek::D

Mike

[barney_rubble]

I'm more concerned about the Knights of St Columbanus and the Hibernians myself.:eek::D

Mike

Hmm the above are both new to me
-------------------------------------------

What really scares me is the "Independent Order of Foresters". :eek::D:eek:

They claim there roots back the the "Friendly Societies" of Thirteenth Century England. :eek:

Now they are a "fraternal benefit society providing financial services, products and fraternal benefits to members in Canada and the USA". :eek:

To be eligible to become a member today you must buy an insurance policy from them with a minimum coverage of $10,000.00!! :eek:
(or be a spouse / child of a current member)

Rights, Privileges & Opportunities as a member to the in the "Independent Order of Foresters" include:
- Attend Branch events, functions, meetings
- Volunteer at events
- Receive Branch mailings and Foresters publications
- Vote in elections and Branch matters
- Hold office in a Branch executive
- and more!

Sounds like a "Piranha Brothers" scheme to me! :D LOL

See
http://www.foresters.com
http://www.foresters135.com/Pages/Home.aspx


Actually maybe I will buy a policy just so I can say I am a member of the "Independent Order of Foresters"
and to attend the Forester's yearly picnic and fish fry. :D

NOTE TO MODS: this post is 100% sarcasm and is meant to lighten the mood!

[mike martin]

Hmm the above are both new to me
You may recognise the Knights as Knights of Columbus which is what they are known as in the US. Or as I like to think of them the enforcement arm of Opus Dei.

The Ancient Order of Hibernians is something else again.

Mike

[barney_rubble]

You may recognise the Knights as Knights of Columbus which is what they are known as in the US. Or as I like to think of them the enforcement arm of Opus Dei.

The Ancient Order of Hibernians is something else again.

Mike


Ah yes we have the Knights of Columbus here in Canada. They do not seem bad to me.

One of my work mates is the head his local Council (similar to Worshipful master of a lodge).

Apparently the Knights and we Masons (in Ontario) sometime work together on charity projects. I have never witnessed this myself but I am told it has (and does) happen.

[keystone]

You seem to have a cage rattling. Deep breaths, it will be ok.Not at all. In out in out. Thats better - try it! :D

Cheers

[zyphus]

As it goes, I'm sorry for that, I was showing off.

Doesn't that go against everything a Freemason is supposed to be? I would turn a blind eye if you were a Mason of very little experience, but you are not Mike, and that was very cheap my friend.

To quote from http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-masonry/

Freemasonry is one of the world’s oldest secular fraternal societies. The following information is intended to explain Freemasonry as it is practised under the United Grand Lodge of England, which administers Lodges of Freemasons in England and Wales and in many places overseas.

Freemasonry is a society of men concerned with moral and spiritual values. Its members are taught its precepts (moral lessons and self-knowledge) by a series of ritual dramas - a progression of allegorical two-part plays which are learnt by heart and performed within each Lodge - which follow ancient forms, and use stonemasons’ customs and tools as allegorical guides.

Freemasonry instils in its members a moral and ethical approach to life: it seeks to reinforce thoughtfulness for others, kindness in the community, honesty in business, courtesy in society and fairness in all things. Members are urged to regard the interests of the family as paramount but, importantly, Freemasonry also teaches and practices concern for people, care for the less fortunate and help for those in need.

Nowhere in those three paragraphs does it say anything about 'showing off' to those who are curious to learn more about Freemasonry. I'm especially intrigued as to why there is virtually no or very little evidence concerning Freemasonry pre 1717. Hence why I'm curious about the Hanoverian influence.

Perhaps you would like to 'show off' to a more experienced Mason than yourself with your knowledge concerning the Hanoverian influence in moderns Freemasonry. The person in question is our very own GS. I find it peculiar that you did not take GS to task on this subject, yet eagerly bushwhacked someone who openly admits to very little Masonic knowledge.

Here's a good place to start

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1273221&postcount=1256

What you don't know about me is that my interest in Freemasonry started in the early 80s when I read a book called "the Brotherhood" by Stephen Knight and I was actually on the other side of the fence.

And what you don't know about me is that I have read virtually every post in this section of the forum over the past few months as I'm trying to learn more about Masonry. I'm quite aware that you started out your Masonic life as an 'anti' (As you put it) and I guess that would go some way to explaining that you seem to think that anyone who is not a Mason, is either anti-mason or a conspiracy theorist. I am neither Mike.

And just for the record, this particular forum is looked down on as a bit of a joke in what you term 'conspiracy theory' forums. Although I happen to think there are some brilliant and original posters here if you're willing to sift through the manure.


Fortunately I have a bit of intelligence and am able to research things for myself.

This is the quote I was getting at regarding sly insinuations, but anyway, that was Friday night.

Although, could I kindly ask to see your research on the matter at hand? I.e. The Hanoverian (or not) influence on moderns Freemasonry. A counter argument would be all the better.

Let me put it this way for you.

I am Freemason. I am approaching the 16th anniversary of my initiation. In conspiracy terminology, I am not a low level Freemason being both a Master Mason and a Past Master (Mark Master, Royal Arch etc don't actually make me any higher). I also work within the Grand Lodge building so on a daily basis I mingle with the big names.

I'm not too sure where this fits in to be fair Mike. I couldn't care less about the day to day inner workings of UGLE, I'll leave that to other people.

Although I have met the DoK twice as a Mason and sit in Grand Lodge when he presides, I am not a Hanoverian and neither are any of my brethren. So on what do you base the claim of a "hanoverian influence"?

That the DoK is of Hanoverian descent. I'm not quite sure how else I can word this better. The only thing I can imagine is that he has absolutely no influence regarding UGLE Freemasonry.

I didn't once say that this is necessarily a good or a bad thing. I'm just after some straight forward data.

I think the problem is that non-Masons put too much emphasis on the Grand Master as the power. In reality the Grand Secretary has far more influence within a Grand Lodge.

Mike

Fair enough. Not a lot I can add to that as I simply would not know.

And I would've answered you a bit earlier, but Friday night kinda turned into Saturday morning :D

Hope you had a good weekend anyway..

[grandsecretary]

On this question you might like to read this article.

http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2007/12/sussex-v-sussex-case-for-genuine-anglo.html

Genuine Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry was appropriated by the Hanoverian dynasty in 1813 during a period of national crisis in a move designed to ensure that henceforth the Fraternity would be unable to articulate an independent response to the situation of the day. Freemasonry was also institutionalised by the same process of patronage that the Hanoverians used to such effect elsewhere in the Kingdom.

It is written by Richard Martin Young, Grand Chancellor of The Grand Lodge of All England: P.S. and partly by me, I forgot.

There is no doubt whatsoever, that the Duke of Kent is the Grand Master of The United Grand Lodge of England, and that he is a representative of the Hanoverian Dynasty, which continues to exert its influence throughout the world, including in the arena of Freemasonry.

His brother, Prince Michael of Kent, represents the Hanoverian Dynasty as the Grand Master of all of the "side degrees" of the freemasonry of the United Grand Lodge of England.

Both the Duke of Kent, and Prince Michael of Kent, brothers of the Hanoverian blood royal, are active members of The Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Rite 33° for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapter overseas (The Higher Degrees of Freemasonry).

I have no doubt, whatsoever, that Her Majesty the Queen, of the House of Hanover, has authorised and encouraged their continued involvement. It is inconceivable that this would not be the case.

See here: House of Hanover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[zyphus]

Thanks for that GS, looking forward to reading it. Dinner is almost served so I will save it 'til after..

[free thinker]

The original post was a cut n paste job from a recent news article...

Playing devils advocate for a moment, the more cynical among us may see it as a problem if their councillors are Freemasons, simply because of the 'oaths' taken to protect each other.

Like i said in another thread, even our Politicians try to cover each others backs, when whistles get blown.

I realise the fact that perhaps the majority of masons may be upstanding pillars (no pun intended) of society, but like everything else in life, the few spoil it for the many.

Perhaps the ritual should include a part that gives equal weight as say, the one that befalls a mason for divulging inner secrets, rather than just expulsion?

Something like..." should you use your position under the umbrella of the lodge to interfere, coherce....." OK maybe in different terminology, but essentially make it a masonic crime, and then throw them to the dogs....