A Genuine Question...

[free thinker]

People outside of the craft have a 'distrust' of it, you only have to look at some of the many posts just on this forum alone to see that.


OK, i want to ask a question directly to masons.

How would you answer this from an individual point of view.

Hypothetically, i lay this accusation to you that a 'congregation of people gathering together at regular intervals behind closed doors, with a guard outside it's doors, and a guard immediately inside the door, at these meetings there are occupants within that have the capacity to by-pass certain 'things' that outsiders cannot'..?

I have seen answers such as, Yes but this can happen at a golf club, that may be the case but how many golf clubs have the need for the hailing of distress? - so for me the two are not comparable, in fact to go one step further how many golf clubs ask its members to take oaths to assist its members in the same way freemasonry does?


Again, Hypothetically, You are a Judge presiding over a case, or even a Juror, you see a defendant come before you who signals distress, lets say it was for a minor offence (ie not rape, or murder..things of that nature) would you ignore his call, or would you change your actions because of what you saw?


I realise what your answer should be, but in reality what would you do, remembering that in the example above, the fact a Jury is needed, signals that the defendant would be pleading not guilty.


Let me first tell you what i would do in all honesty....I would keep to my sworn oath and seek to assist him....but that is just being honest and admitting it....For the protection of the craft though, i would not assist him.

[stevepenny]

People outside of the craft have a 'distrust' of it, you only have to look at some of the many posts just on this forum alone to see that.

Hypothetically, i lay this accusation to you that a 'congregation of people gathering together at regular intervals behind closed doors, with a guard outside it's doors, and a guard immediately inside the door, at these meetings there are occupants within that have the capacity to by-pass certain 'things' that outsiders cannot'..?

The answer to your question is that they are there as the ritual calls for them to be there. We could just as easily lock the outside door; and in fact when we have business meetings that is exactly what we do rather than the Tyler stand outside all night.

There are always people, in all walks of life, who can 'bypass' certain things. I'll even give you an example. Our heating recently broke down and we needed a new boiler. One of our members is in the building trade and negociated a significant discount.

....so for me the two are not comparable, in fact to go one step further how many golf clubs ask its members to take oaths to assist its members in the same way freemasonry does?

Perhaps you can clarify this. Exactly what oaths to assist, and exactly what assistance, are you referring too?

There is only one oath in each of the degrees, and none of them make reference to 'assisting'. Neither do they make any reference, as some would have you believe, to some kind of Masonic loyalty.

Again, Hypothetically, You are a Judge presiding over a case, or even a Juror, you see a defendant come before you who signals distress, lets say it was for a minor offence (ie not rape, or murder..things of that nature) would you ignore his call, or would you change your actions because of what you saw?

Freemasonry states openly that a Masons obligation is to the Law, family , and State, before any obligation to Freemasonry. Using your hypothetical situation any Judge or Juror is oblidged both morally and legally to recuse themselves from the trial; in the same way that they would if they knoew or had any connection with the accused.

And to be honest, anyone using the 'sign' that you refer too would look very stupid if he gave it in the dock.

Let me first tell you what i would do in all honesty....I would keep to my sworn oath and seek to assist him....but that is just being honest and admitting it....For the protection of the craft though, i would not assist him.

Then you would be keeping an oath which you had not taken, and failing to discharge your moral, legal and civic duties.

[mike martin]

People outside of the craft have a 'distrust' of it, you only have to look at some of the many posts just on this forum alone to see that.
The word you have missed is "some". Some people distrust Freemasonry. The vast majority couldn't care less, the vocal minority make it appear that the whole world lives in fear or is under the control of Freemasonry, it's just not true.

Hypothetically, i lay this accusation to you that a 'congregation of people gathering together at regular intervals behind closed doors, with a guard outside it's doors, and a guard immediately inside the door, at these meetings there are occupants within that have the capacity to by-pass certain 'things' that outsiders cannot'..?
This is just paranoid!

Again, Hypothetically, You are a Judge presiding over a case, or even a Juror, you see a defendant come before you who signals distress, lets say it was for a minor offence (ie not rape, or murder..things of that nature) would you ignore his call, or would you change your actions because of what you saw?

I realise what your answer should be, but in reality what would you do, remembering that in the example above, the fact a Jury is needed, signals that the defendant would be pleading not guilty.

Let me first tell you what i would do in all honesty....I would keep to my sworn oath and seek to assist him....but that is just being honest and admitting it....For the protection of the craft though, i would not assist him.

These 3 above are all answered by the Obligation of a Master Mason itself, it is often misquoted by people who have an axe to grind. However, the words below should help:

I further solemnly engage myself to maintain and uphold the Five Points of Fellowship in act as well as in word: that my hand, given to a Master Mason, shall be a sure pledge of brotherhood; that my feet shall travel through dangers and difficulties to unite with his in forming a column of mutual defense and support; that the posture of my daily supplications shall remind me of his wants, and dispose my heart to succour his weakness and relieve his necessities, so far as may-fairly be done without detriment to myself or connections; that my breast shall be the sacred repository of his secrets when entrusted to my care - murder, treason, felony, and all other offences contrary to the laws of God and the ordinances of the realm being at all times most especially excepted. And finally, that I will maintain a Master Mason’s honour and carefully preserve it as my own: I will not injure him myself or knowingly suffer it to be done by others if in my power to prevent it, but, on the contrary, will boldly repel the slanderer of his good name, and most strictly respect the chastity of those nearest and dearest to him, in the persons of his wife, his sister and his child.

Mike

[free thinker]

I stand corrected on a number of points, (i typed in a bit of a hurry before i dashed out this morning.)


I have no axe to grind against freemasonry in it's self, i suspect like many Freemasons themselves, i deplore corrupt masons and consider them to be the lowest of the low.

They are normally given the term 'bad apples', a description that belittles the importance, IMO.

Is it the case then that there is no sign of distress, for a mason in distress?

Thanks for the replies so far BTW

[free thinker]

And to be honest, anyone using the 'sign' that you refer too would look very stupid if he gave it in the dock.


Obviously so... if it were to be the type of sign from a Monty Python sketch, but like the modes of recognition, they are subtle and only known by those who should know, it may go un-noticed by most.

Of course, we are talking hypothetical scenarios here, and assuming it ever got as far as a Courtroom...

[stevepenny]

Is it the case then that there is no sign of distress, for a mason in distress?

Yes there is, but it is a sign that is used as part of the ritual, to help to explain a specific event alluded to in the ritual. It is not overly complicated but you would look a complete 'dork' if you stood in the middle of the street and gave it.

Thanks for the replies so far BTW

:)

[stewart edwards]

Yes there is, but it is a sign that is used as part of the ritual, to help to explain a specific event alluded to in the ritual. It is not overly complicated but you would look a complete 'dork' if you stood in the middle of the street and gave it.



:)or even in the middle of a business meeting, followed by my blank face wondering what had just happened.

[free thinker]

or even in the middle of a business meeting, followed by my blank face wondering what had just happened.

Ah yes, but a good Ole hand shake before the meeting would negate the need for such an outburst.;)

[stewart edwards]

Ah yes, but a good Ole hand shake before the meeting would negate the need for such an outburst.;)Indeed, but for some reason people often assume that I am a mason. And this was a good decade plus years ago before I found my way to freemasonry so to speak.

He was in a bit of a spot and I was genuinely unable to help him, so then he went into his little couple of second "routine" with the look of horror when I didnt respond - I probably looked gobsmacked.

Which is why I smile to myself when masons claim that such things never happen. (and yes I am as certain as I can be that he is (or at least was) a mason, and I have checked out what happened with other known masons). But it was such a long time ago now.

[eastbeast]

Obviously so... if it were to be the type of sign from a Monty Python sketch, but like the modes of recognition, they are subtle and only known by those who should know, it may go un-noticed by most.

The sign of distress is hardly subtle!
As has been said, you would look very strange giving that sign anywhere and it would be sure to provoke some response in the form of an enquirey from the opposing council or other Magistrate.
Contrary to popular belief not all Police, members of the legal profession or those at Court are Freemasons.



Of course, we are talking hypothetical scenarios here, and assuming it ever got as far as a Courtroom...

Meaning a Freemason could use his connections?
A popular myth, one based on pure conjecture and totally false.

[free thinker]

Meaning a Freemason could use his connections?
A popular myth, one based on pure conjecture and totally false.

A blast from the past....


Thursday, March 5, 1998 Published at 13:49 GMT



UK

Freemasons - moral guardians or centre of corruption?

Opponents say masonic rituals and oaths could put members at odds with public duty
Depending on your point of view freemasonry is either a gentlemen's club devoted to moral and spiritual values or a corrupt organisation intent on looking after number one.



Lord Justice Milliett: "freemasonry is not an interest" (1' 53")
One thing is certain - freemasons would like to stay out of the public eye as much as possible.

It is this determination to preserve a shroud of secrecy which arouses suspicion in non-masons.



Masonry is surrounded by myth and legend
Even their origins are open to question. Some say the first examples of masonry date back to the Egyptian pyramid builders although modern freemasons can only claim a 300-year history.

Throughout their history stories of rituals and threats have leaked out.

There are freemasons all over Europe and North America.

Italy in particular is riddled with masonic lodges - the most famous of which was the corrupt P2 lodge - and freemasons have been at loggerheads with the Roman Catholic Church for years.

But it is how the membership is made up that worries some quarters.

Trumped up charges

The freemasons are estimated to have more than 300,000 members in the UK and thousands more abroad.

Stories are rife of masons winning promotion because their boss is a member and accused men standing in the dock giving the judge a sly sign indicating he is a mason, although evidence of such cases remains flimsy.

But Martin Short, author of Inside the Brotherhood, told the Home Affairs Select Committee how two Asian businessmen stumbled on a masonic dinner at a hotel and were prosecuted on trumped up charges of assaulting police officers.

He said it later became apparent that the police officers were lodge members as was the investigating officer, a senior official in the Crown Prosecution Service and the hotel manager. A presumably non-masonic jury acquitted the businessmen.

Two years ago the select committee said: "We believe that nothing so much undermines public confidence in public institutions as the knowledge that some public servants are members of a secret society, one of whose aims is mutual self-advancement."



Masons argue the society is no more harmful than the golf club
Masonic rules state that members must do all they can to support each other, to look after each other and to keep each others' lawful secrets.

For those breaking the rules, the penalties are outlined in bizarre initiation rituals.

New members are blindfolded, wearing a hangman's noose and are warned their throat will be slit, their tongue torn out and then they will be buried in the sand.

The rituals are all too similar to those of the Cosa Nostra and the Triads.

No-one believes masons will carry out the threats but critics argue the oaths of allegiance could put them at odds with public duty.

Centuries of secrecy

Since 1717 when four London lodges came together to form a Grand Lodge based on the concepts of brotherly love, relief and truth, non-members have been suspicious of freemasonry.

But it was only 14 years ago that masons began courting public acceptance with a leaflet on the positive aspects of their "craft".

Eight years later the media were invited to attend a masonic meeting for the first time.

Freemasons argue their organisation is open to any man regardless of religion or colour. But women are excluded.

They say all that is needed to join is a belief in a god, not necessarily the Christian God, and a good reputation.

They insist a mason who is a judge, for example, could not be put in a compromising position because freemasonry demands members respect the law.

Freemason literature says the society condemns members who use membership to promote his personal or business interests.

Masons date with destiny

There have also been questions about masonic involvement in the John Stalker disciplinary hearing, which forced the former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester to abandon his inquiry into an alleged shoot-to-kill policy being operated in Northern Ireland.

Freemasonry was also mentioned in relation to the discredited and eventually disbanded West Midlands Serious Crimes Squad.

So far the masons summoned, Commander Michael Higham, Grand Secretary of the United Lodge of England, and John Hamill, the lodge's librarian have refused to reveal the names of masons involved in the cases


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/57463.stm

[mike martin]

I have no axe to grind against freemasonry in it's self, i suspect like many Freemasons themselves, i deplore corrupt masons and consider them to be the lowest of the low.
Just to be clear, I wasn't pointing a finger at you. Up until now all you really had to work with was recycled tales of yore regarding Masonic misdeeds. Now what you have is a handful of Freemasons who can supply you with some inside knowledge and thereby balance.

I (along with the vast majority of the members of the UGLE) agree with you regarding the idea of "corrupt" Freemasons. I regard them to be just slightly lower than the people who insist in recycling fallacious gossip about Freemasonry. On the odd occasion that one turns up they do more damage than the "repeaters".

They are normally given the term 'bad apples', a description that belittles the importance, IMO.
The term illustrates their numbers, no more.

Is it the case then that there is no sign of distress, for a mason in distress?
Oh yes, there certainly is! It is given to us (several versions) when we become Master Masons I can promise you that to do it outside of a Lodge room in the context of the Ceremony would be akin to standing on a packed railway platform doing the "Teapot" song. (edit to say you can read the description of them and how to do them for yourself by visiting one of the online ritual exposes)

Watch from 0:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHnjwSMyIQ


Mike

[mike martin]

Obviously so... if it were to be the type of sign from a Monty Python sketch, but like the modes of recognition, they are subtle and only known by those who should know, it may go un-noticed by most.

Again, too much supposition! The modes of recognition are not subtle only the grip (handshake) part is, on it's own the grip proves nothing about possible membership. I shake hands as an EA and always have done, it's the size and shape of my hands. You have to do the words (tokens) that go with it to prove you're a Mason.

Mike

[mike martin]

Just to get away from the hypothetical for a while, try googling the murderer Frederick Henry Seddon, quite a famous case in its day.

Nothing hypothetical about his grief and distress!

Mike

[free thinker]

Hi Mike,

I am pleased that you see what i am trying to say, it is not the genuine Freemason that i have problems with, hand on heart.:)

But i am sure that you also will be with me that until the 'bad apples' are caught out, they will continue to 'deeds' that conflict with the tenets of your Craft.

The problem is, as i see it at least, is that these despots are probably the worst offenders when it comes to giving the Craft a bad name in some:) peoples eyes.

Not trying to tar you all with the same brush here, definitely not, but how would you respond to this statement "Freemasonry, can only claim to be as good as it's worst brother", i mentioned this on another thread.

I am a Company Director, and hold the above in high regard as it is a good yard-stick for a Company to have, it's fine being all dandy at the top, but it's your employees that can throw a big spanner in the works, as i am sure you will appreciate.

[free thinker]

Just to get away from the hypothetical for a while, try googling the murderer Frederick Henry Seddon, quite a famous case in its day.

Nothing hypothetical about his grief and distress!

Mike

Heartening,...the Judge probably was more annoyed that he did not use the correct term..:D

On being asked by the clerk of the court if he had anything to say as to why the sentence of death should not be passed against him, Seddon replied at length and appealed to the judge, as a brother Mason and in the name of ‘The Great Architect Of The Universe’ for a reversal of the jury’s finding.

[flyermay]

I'll even give you an example. Our heating recently broke down and we needed a new boiler. One of our members is in the building trade and negociated a significant discount.

So, you admit that freemasonry use their influences to obtain discounts? ;)

[free thinker]

So, you admit that freemasonry use their influences to obtain discounts? ;)

Conclusive proof! :D :p :D

[mike martin]

I've got to reorder this cos you need the background first.

Not trying to tar you all with the same brush here, definitely not, but how would you respond to this statement "Freemasonry, can only claim to be as good as it's worst brother", i mentioned this on another thread.

I am a Company Director, and hold the above in high regard as it is a good yard-stick for a Company to have, it's fine being all dandy at the top, but it's your employees that can throw a big spanner in the works, as i am sure you will appreciate.
No I wouldn't but that's just because I understand how the UGLE is actually structured. There are approx 230,000 members of the UGLE BUT they are are members of 8,000 individual and private Lodges, which have what can loosely be described as regional management in the form of 48 Provincial Grand Lodges.

Despite how it would seem to someone outside, A Lodge can only be as Good as its worst brother and a Province can only be as good as its worst Lodge and Grand Lodge can only be as good as its worst Province.

However, each Grand Lodge is totally independent of each other so therefore what goes on in other countries has nothing to do with the UGLE.

As GS is very keen to remind everyone the UGLE is not the sum of Freemasonry!

But i am sure that you also will be with me that until the 'bad apples' are caught out, they will continue to 'deeds' that conflict with the tenets of your Craft.
Yes I am afraid I am. However, in 15 years as a member I have only actually come across 2 members who were bad apples, they are now gone.

The problem is, as i see it at least, is that these despots are probably the worst offenders when it comes to giving the Craft a bad name in some:) peoples eyes.
In my experience it is very rare to find an actual in-the-flesh offender because the majority of Freemasonry's detractors are merely recycling old gossip.

Mike

[mike martin]

Heartening,...the Judge probably was more annoyed that he did not use the correct term..:D

That is the correct term?

It is claimed in some quarters that Judge Bucknill's summation contained these words:

It is not for me to harrow your feelings – try to make peace with your maker. We both belong to the same Brotherhood, and though that can have no influence with me this is painful beyond words to have to say what I am saying, but our brotherhood does not encourage crime, it condemns it.

I don't normally include them as the Court Records, don't normally include the summation so I can't verify them.

Mike

[free thinker]

Just to get away from the hypothetical for a while, try googling the murderer Frederick Henry Seddon, quite a famous case in its day.

Nothing hypothetical about his grief and distress!

Mike

Interesting, thank you Mike..thought i would post here.

http://www.mqmagazine.co.uk/issue-16/p-11.php


Frederick Seddon was hanged for the murder of his lodger, Eliza Barrow, in 1912
Judge Darling, who presided at the main court hearing, was not a Freemason. John Hurd, however, the witness at the Assize hearing, and Tunnard Moore, chairman of the Bench at the magistrate’s court hearing, as well as William Rees, the foreman of the jury, all belonged to Loyal Hay Lodge. Armstrong was found guilty of the murder of his wife and hanged on 31 May 1922. He had had a successful Masonic career by any standards. Bro. E H Cleese, who was in the same solicitors’ practice as Oswald Martin, introduced him to Loyal Hay Lodge in Hay-on-Wye in 1906. Armstrong served as Master in 1912, Chaplain in 1920 and was appointed a Past Provincial Senior Grand Deacon for the Province of Herefordshire in 1921.

The second case involving a Freemason is here being considered out of chronological sequence because of its greater significance to Freemasonry. It is the well-known case of Frederick Henry Seddon, who was tried, convicted and subsequently hanged at Pentonville Prison on 18 April 1912 for the murder of his lodger, Miss Eliza Mary Barrow. On being asked by the clerk of the court if he had anything to say as to why the sentence of death should not be passed against him, Seddon replied at length and appealed to the judge, as a brother Mason and in the name of ‘The Great Architect Of The Universe’ for a reversal of the jury’s finding.

According to some sources, he gave the First Degree sign, begging for mercy. Judge Bucknill, a prominent Freemason, is recorded to have said, with some emotion:


It is not for me to harrow your feelings – try to make peace with your maker. We both belong to the same Brotherhood, and though that can have no influence with me this is painful beyond words to have to say what I am saying, but our brotherhood does not encourage crime, it condemns it.
Then he pronounced the sentence of death. Spilsbury, very much a key player in seeing justice done, was still a young practitioner and not yet himself involved in Freemasonry. His colleagues who provided forensic evidence, however, were Masons.

Dr William Henry Wilcox, medical adviser to the Home Office who, as already mentioned, was a member of the Craft, having been initiated on 13 March 1906 in Sancta Maria Lodge, of which Spilsbury was later to become a joining member. So was Dr John Webster, senior official analyst to the Home Office, initiated on 8 June 1909.

The Seddon case remains one of considerable controversy. Aged 40 at the time of his trial, Seddon was seen to be an avaricious man whose only motive for the cruel murder of Eliza Mary Barrow was financial gain. He was accused of poisoning her with arsenic obtained from fly strips. The case against him was weak and depended almost entirely on the evidence of Spilsbury, whose expertise even this early in his career was instrumental and impressive.

The trial Judge, RW Bro Thomas Townsend Bucknill, Provincial Grand Master for Surrey from 1903 to 1915, was initiated in 1873 in Lodge of Good Report No. 136. As to Frederick Seddon, he was initiated in Stanley Lodge No. 1325, Liverpool, in 1901 and resigned a year later to travel south. In 1905 he is named as a founding petitioner of Stephens Lodge No. 3089, Bourne End in Buckinghamshire. He resigned from both Lodges in 1906.

As successful as his career had been, Spilsbury faced tragedies through his life. In 1940 he suffered a stroke and this was the start of the decline in his health. He had the shocking experience of hearing of his son’s death by way of a note of condolence from a colleague and not knowing which of his two sons had been killed.

It was his son Peter, whose passing was announced without comment in open Lodge on 3 February 1941, the meeting at which Bernard Spilsbury was elected Master. It is said that Spilsbury was a changed man thereafter. He lost the spring in his walk and there was a marked decline in his mental alertness. He was a man fatigued and worried with the continuous pressure of unwholesome work. It finally led to his taking his own life on 17 December 1947. His remains were cremated at the Golders Green crematorium.

Bernard Spilsbury’s standing as a staunch supporter of truth and justice, those special Masonic characteristics, and as the greatest forensic doctor of all time, will never be erased from memory.

[mike martin]

Interesting, thank you Mike..thought i would post here.

http://www.mqmagazine.co.uk/issue-16/p-11.php

Ahh now you see you've gone to a Freemason for that. When I research something I try to find neutral sources as well as the anti/pro lobbies.

My source is http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?foo=bar&path=sessionsPapers/19120227.xml&div=t19120227-48

Mike

[free thinker]

Ahh now you see you've gone to a Freemason for that. When I research something I try to find neutral sources as well as the anti/pro lobbies.

My source is http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?foo=bar&path=sessionsPapers/19120227.xml&div=t19120227-48

Mike

As i understand it, what is in bold means very little (EDIT as regard to distress that is) (your source)

I declare, before the Great Architect of the Universe, I am not guilty, my lord. If I say more, I do not suppose it will be of any account, but still if it is the last word I have to speak I say I am not guilty of the crime for which I stand committed."

[mike martin]

As i understand it, what is in bold means very little (EDIT as regard to distress that is) (your source)
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

He used a phrase found in Masonic Ritual (Great Architect of the Universe) to formulate an appeal to the Judge as a fellow Mason. The Judge held to his Obligation as a Master Mason and hung him.

Mike

[free thinker]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

He used a phrase found in Masonic Ritual (Great Architect of the Universe)Mike


It started as a question of masonic sign of distress, as i understand it what was said by Seddon was not the exact phrase of one of distress. (Hiram)

[mike martin]

It started as a question of masonic sign of distress, as i understand it what was said by Seddon was not the exact phrase of one of distress. (Hiram)
Ah I see! That goes back to what several of us have already said, that being although there is definitely such a thing it's not something that you're likely to see outside of a Lodge room or a Monty Python sketch.

Mike

[free thinker]

Ah I see! That goes back to what several of us have already said, that being although there is definitely such a thing it's not something that you're likely to see outside of a Lodge room or a Monty Python sketch.

Mike

Sorry Mike now you have lost me :confused: why would a Freemason need a sign of distress... if it is only ever used in a lodge, i see no logic in it - what could he possibly need it for, one presumes that if he is in a lodge, then why call into question his authenticity as a mason?

[thelonious]

Sorry Mike now you have lost me :confused: why would a Freemason need a sign of distress... if it is only ever used in a lodge, i see no logic in it - what could he possibly need it for, one presumes that if he is in a lodge, then why call into question his authenticity as a mason?

The distress signals may be used in life-or-death emergencies. One should not, for example, use one of them in order to get help changing a flat tire.

Since life-or-death emergencies are rare, most Masons will never use them, or see them being used, outside of the Lodge room.

[mike martin]

Sorry Mike now you have lost me :confused: why would a Freemason need a sign of distress... if it is only ever used in a lodge, i see no logic in it - what could he possibly need it for, one presumes that if he is in a lodge, then why call into question his authenticity as a mason?

I will put this into really personal terms, when I joined nerly 16 years ago I remember thinking how cool it was to have a sign of grief and distress (that's what it's actually called) and thinking that I could use it if I was in trouble. Now years later I realise it's just that, a nice idea.

If a Mason needs help and he thinks a fellow Mason can help he would ask him just like anybody else. I've said it before but non-Masons get hung up on the throw away bits of our Ritual and ignore all the really important stuff. I've never yet seen a non-Mason (whether anti or Conspiracy theorist) try to work their way through the working tools of each degree or the tracing boards or the whole of the Obligations, what they do is take a few words and present them out of context and twist their intended meaning.

Mike

[free thinker]

Mike,
You have been very accommodating thus far, you are a credit to the Craft, i am not patronising you BTW.

In this new tech age, as you well know there is an awful lot of info & dis-information about the craft.

The one thing that separate the two is verification, i fully appreciate the requirements to keep the inner working of freemasonry secret.

But as you well know the birth of the internet has placed some information out there that does hold some truth.

Hand shakes, words customs ceremonies the whole nine yards, almost.

you may think that i am just some average Joe who thinks that he knows it all, fair enough, i can accept that view.

But i think that you would be surprised, maybe horrified just how much someone could learn about the craft without actually being told 'from the horses mouth'...would you agree on that?

[grandsecretary]

The distress signals may be used in life-or-death emergencies. One should not, for example, use one of them in order to get help changing a flat tire.

Since life-or-death emergencies are rare, most Masons will never use them, or see them being used, outside of the Lodge room.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. The rituals of a Freemason describe its use outside of the lodge room. I will dig it out and publish it. Dear me.

[free thinker]

Our Grand Master Hiram Abif was slain at high-twelve. It was his usual custom at that hour, when the craft was called from labor to refreshment, to enter into the unfinished Sanctum Sanctorum, or Holy of Holies of the Temple, and there offer his devotions to Deity and draw his designs on the Trestleboard. The three Fellowcrafts who persisted in their murderous design, knowing this to be his usual practice, situated themselves at the South, West and East gates of the Temple and there awaited his return.

Our Grand Master Hiram Abif, having finished his devotions and other duties, attempted to retire by the South gate where he was accosted by Jubela, who thrice demanded of him the secrets of a Master Mason, or the Master's Word, and on being refused he gave him a blow with a twenty-four inch gauge across his throat. He then endeavored to pass out by the West gate where he was accosted by Jubelo, who in like manner thrice demanded of him the secrets of a Master Mason or the Master's Word, and on being refused he gave him a blow with a square across his breast; upon which he fled and endeavored to make his escape by the East gate where he was accosted by Jubelum, who in like manner thrice demanded of him the secrets of a Master Mason or the Master's Word; and on his being refused he struck him a violent blow with a Setting Maul upon his forehead which felled him dead on the spot.

The ruffians then buried the body in the rubbish of the Temple until low-twelve, when they met according to agreement and conveyed it a Westerly course from the Temple to the brow of a hill West of Mount Moriah where they buried it in a grave, situated due East and West, six feet perpendicular, at the head of which they planted an acacia in order to conceal it and that the place might be known should occasion ever require.

They then endeavored to make their escape out of the country.

Our Grand Master Hiram Abif was missed the following day. His absence was discovered by there being no designs drawn on the Trestleboard. King Solomon, being informed of this, said he feared that he was indisposed and ordered strict search and due inquiry to be made for him throughout the several apartments of the Temple. Strict search and due inquiry were accordingly made, but he could not be found. King Solomon, then fearing that some accident had befallen him ordered the several roles of the workman to be called, and at roll call it was found that three Fellowcrafts were missing, Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum, who, from the similarity of their names were supposed to be brothers and men from Tyre.

At this time, the twelve Fellowcrafts who had recanted appeared before King Solomon clothed in white gloves and aprons in token of their innocence, acknowledged their premeditated guilt and kneeling, humbly implored his pardon. King Solomon ordered them to arise, divide themselves into parties and travel three East, three West, three North and three South, with others whom he should appoint, in search of the ruffians, and to return not without tidings.

They traveled as directed; and as the party who pursued a Westerly course came down near the port of Joppa, the fell in with a Seafaring Man of whom they inquired if he had seen any strangers pass that way. He informed them that he had, three, who appeared to be workman from the Temple at Jerusalem seeking a passage to Ethiopia, but not having King Solomon's pass, they were unable to obtain passage and returned into the country.

They returned and brought this information to King Solomon who ordered them to disguise themselves and travel as before with positive injunction not to return without the ruffians, and with a positive assurance that if they did, the twelve should be deemed the murderers and severally suffer for the crime committed.

They traveled as before, and as they were returning after many days of fruitless search, one of them, being more weary than the rest, sat down on the brow of a hill West of Mount Moriah to rest and refresh himself. On arising he accidentally caught hold of an acacia which, easily giving away, excited his curiosity; upon which he hailed his comrades, and on examination, they found the appearance of a newly made grave.

At this time they heard from the clefts of the adjacent rocks the horrid exclamations which have been repeated in your hearing this evening. The first they recognized as the voice of Jubela, the second of Jubelo, and the third of Jubelum; upon which they rushed in, seized and bound them and took them before King Solomon, who, after a due confession of their guilt, ordered them to be taken without the gates of the city and there executed according to their several imprecations made in the clefts of the rocks. They were executed accordingly.

King Solomon then ordered the twelve Fellowcrafts to go in search of the body and, if found, to observe whether the Master's Word, a key to it, or anything appertaining to the Master's degree was on or about it. The body was found on the brow of a hill West of Mount Moriah where our weary brother sat down to rest and refresh himself, but nothing was found on or about it except the jewel of his office by which the body was designated.

King Solomon then ordered the twelve Fellowcrafts to repair to the grave and assist him in raising the body; and it was agreed between him and Hiram, King of Tyre, that as the Master's Word was then lost, the first sign given at the grave and the first word spoken after the body was raised should be adopted for the regulation of all Master's Lodges until future ages should find out the right.

They repaired to the grave where the body was raised, as you have been, by the Strong Grip of a Master Mason, or Lion's Paw. They carried it to the Temple from which they buried it in due form. The body of our Grand Master Hiram Abif was three times buried: first, in the rubbish of the Temple; second, on the brow of a hill West of Mount Moriah; and third and lastly, as near the unfinished Sanctum Sanctorum, or Holy of Holies of the Temple as the Jewish law would permit.

A Masonic tradition informs us that there was erected to his memory a marble monument consisting of a beautiful virgin weeping over a broken column, before her a book open, in her right hand a sprig of acacia, in her left an urn, behind her stands time, unfolding and counting the ringlets of her hair.

The beautiful virgin weeping over a broken column denotes the unfinished state of the Temple, likewise the untimely death of our Grand Master Hiram Abif; the book open before her, that his virtues there lie on perpetual record; the sprig of acacia in her right hand, the timely discovery of his grave; the urn in her left, that his ashes were therein safely deposited to perpetuate the remembrance of that amiable, devoted and exemplary craftsman. Time, unfolding and counting the ringlets of her hair, denotes that time, patience and perseverance will accomplish all things.

My brother, I will now proceed to give an explanation to you of the several signs belonging to this degree. This [Done], you recollect, is the Due Guard of a Master Mason; it alludes to the position in which your hands were placed while taking the obligation.

This [Done] is the Sign; it alludes to the symbolic penalty of your obligation. These signs have another allusion. When our ancient brethren repaired to the grave of our Grand Master Hiram Abif, they found their hands involuntarily placed in this [Due Guard] or this [Sign] position; as if to guard their nostrils from the offensive effluvia which assailed them from the grave.

This [Hands raised above head and brought down into the Due Guard], my brother, is the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress. It is the sign you solemnly promised in your obligation never to give except in circumstances of the most imminent danger, or within a regularly constituted Lodge, or for the purpose of instruction. And should you ever see the sign given, or hear the words thereto annexed spoken, you are equally bound by your obligation to fly to the relief of the brother so giving it, should there be a greater probability of saving his life than of losing your own. The words to be used in the dark, or when for any reason the sign cannot be given are: Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's Son? Either one will constitute the Sign of Distress.

This sign also has an allusion. At the raising of the body of our Grand Master Hiram Abif, our ancient brethren found their hands involuntarily raised above their heads in token of horror and surprise, at the same time exclaiming, "Oh Lord, my God, is their no help for the Widow's Son?"

Am i getting warm yet?

[stevepenny]

Am i getting warm yet?

Which ritual was this extracted from?

[mike martin]

This [Hands raised above head and brought down into the Due Guard], my brother, is the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress. It is the sign you solemnly promised in your obligation never to give except in circumstances of the most imminent danger, or within a regularly constituted Lodge, or for the purpose of instruction. And should you ever see the sign given, or hear the words thereto annexed spoken, you are equally bound by your obligation to fly to the relief of the brother so giving it, should there be a greater probability of saving his life than of losing your own. The words to be used in the dark, or when for any reason the sign cannot be given are: Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's Son? Either one will constitute the Sign of Distress.

Am i getting warm yet?
Well if you're in America I suppose a bit of Duncan's almost infamous Ritual exposure is nice. However with a bit more diligence it is relatively easy to find English Ritual on the Net.

A Freemason under the UGLE would recognise the words below and just be puzzled by what you've posted:

On the Continent of Europe the Sign of Grief and Distress is given in a different manner, by clasping the hands and elevating them with their backs to the forehead, exclaiming 'Come to my assistance, ye children of the widow’ on the supposition that all Master Masons are brothers to Hiram Abiff, who was a widow's son. In Ireland and the States of America the Sign of Grief and Distress is given in a still different manner, by throwing up the hands with the palms extended towards the Heavens and dropping them with three distinct movements to the sides, exclaiming 'Oh Lord my God, Oh Lord my God, Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?'

Mike

[free thinker]

Well if you're in America I suppose a bit of Duncan's almost infamous Ritual exposure is nice. However with a bit more diligence it is relatively easy to find English Ritual on the Net.

A Freemason under the UGLE would recognise the words below and just be puzzled by what you've posted:

On the Continent of Europe the Sign of Grief and Distress is given in a different manner, by clasping the hands and elevating them with their backs to the forehead, exclaiming 'Come to my assistance, ye children of the widow’ on the supposition that all Master Masons are brothers to Hiram Abiff, who was a widow's son. In Ireland and the States of America the Sign of Grief and Distress is given in a still different manner, by throwing up the hands with the palms extended towards the Heavens and dropping them with three distinct movements to the sides, exclaiming 'Oh Lord my God, Oh Lord my God, Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?'

Mike

I declare, before the Great Architect of the Universe, I am not guilty, you are saying is the english version then - correct?

[keystone]

Which is why I smile to myself when masons claim that such things never happen. (and yes I am as certain as I can be that he is (or at least was) a mason, and I have checked out what happened with other known masons). But it was such a long time ago now.Of course they happen. But the people starting it are, more frequently than not, not masons themselves. They either think it's clever or take the chance they can lull someone into a totally false sense of security or gain an advantage by trying on the old "masonic handshake" ploy.

I studiously ignore any such attempt at endearment - from anyone whatsoever. Always have done.

In any case a handshake is absolutely useless to identify a mason on its own.

Cheers

[keystone]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. The rituals of a Freemason describe its use outside of the lodge room. I will dig it out and publish it. Dear me.Well there is no need to be quite so deprecatory but in essence I agree with you. However, thelonius is from across the pond they might just do things a little bit differently over there so ridicule is probably not a good plan really.

Cheers

[free thinker]

Going back to the original post, my question related to signs of distress, my point was that masons do in fact have a distress sign.

So, as far as i can follow, they do, but only practised behind closed doors.

You would look funny doing it in the street and board meetings.

Were the sign would be conspicuous, a verbal saying is more favourable, but it may not serve its purpose because of different rituals worldwide.

Hmmmm, i see, or rather i don't:confused:

The conclusion i draw from all of this is, Chaff, with the greatest of respect...I will read back over the previous posts again to see if i have missed anything, of course remembering that secrets wouldn't be secrets if they were divulged...;) :)

[keystone]

The conclusion i draw from all of this is, Chaff, with the greatest of respectI would say you were correct even if you said it disrespectfully.

Cheers

[rodin]

However, the words below should help:

I further solemnly engage myself to maintain and uphold the Five Points of Fellowship...

They did

http://www.hailsatan.co.uk/Images/baphomet.png

:D

History of Freemasonry

http://www.freewebs.com/truestoriesvideoblog/two.htm

[mike martin]

They did

:D

Sorry? Do you have an opinion of your own?

Mike

[mike martin]

Going back to the original post, my question related to signs of distress, my point was that masons do in fact have a distress sign.

So, as far as i can follow, they do, but only practised behind closed doors.

You would look funny doing it in the street and board meetings.

Were the sign would be conspicuous, a verbal saying is more favourable, but it may not serve its purpose because of different rituals worldwide.

Hmmmm, i see, or rather i don't:confused:

The conclusion i draw from all of this is, Chaff, with the greatest of respect...I will read back over the previous posts again to see if i have missed anything, of course remembering that secrets wouldn't be secrets if they were divulged...;) :)

I have sort of pointed out what happens in an earlier post. What you need to do is actually have a look at the Rituals themselves. However, we usually discourage someone who is genuinely interested in joining from doing so, as reading through them first can spoil them for a Candidate.

However, as this is all just an academic exercise for you, have a browse through http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/frame_en.html This is just about the most accurate and comprehensive expose site ever and it goes way beyond Freemasonry.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Spot on free thinker:

It is the sign you solemnly promised in your obligation never to give except in circumstances of the most imminent danger, or within a regularly constituted Lodge, or for the purpose of instruction. And should you ever see the sign given, or hear the words thereto annexed spoken, you are equally bound by your obligation to fly to the relief of the brother so giving it, should there be a greater probability of saving his life than of losing your own. The words to be used in the dark, or when for any reason the sign cannot be given are: Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's Son? Either one will constitute the Sign of Distress.

or is a very important word.

... in circumstances of imminent danger OR within a lodge ...

Far too much disinformation here.

[free thinker]

Mike, Keystone, Grand Secretary and others, thank you for your answers.

I think that i have (as i believe at least) enough information from previous research to compare with new information, to understand more of the Craft.

I need not know so much as to cross every T & dot every I in the Craft, but as you say Mike, getting information from a wide spectrum of sources is the best way...;)

[grandsecretary]

All postings by me on this thread have been suspended. I am sorry but I am precluded for legal reasons.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England

[free thinker]

All postings by me on this thread have been suspended. I am sorry but I am precluded for legal reasons.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England

I dont quite understand, suspended ?? as in cannot type any posts..:confused:

[free thinker]

All postings by me on this thread have been suspended. I am sorry but I am precluded for legal reasons.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England


precluded - Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :

Preclude \Pre*clude"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Precluded; p. pr. &
vb. n. Precluding.] [L. praecludere, praeclusum; prae
before + claudere to shut. See Close, v.]
1. To put a barrier before; hence, to shut out; to hinder; to
stop; to impede.
[1913 Webster]

The valves preclude the blood from entering the
veins. --E. Darwin.
[1913 Webster]

2. To shut out by anticipative action; to prevent or hinder
by necessary consequence or implication; to deter action
of, access to, employment of, etc.; to render ineffectual;
to obviate by anticipation.
[1913 Webster]

This much will obviate and preclude the objections.
--Bentley.
[1913 Webster]

[thelonious]

I dont quite understand, suspended ?? as in cannot type any posts..:confused:

Probably more along the lines of "I've been caught lying, but will lose my credibility among the uninformed if I admit it; therefore, I'm not posting anymore".

;)

[grandsecretary]

Doesn't even have the brain to understand the word "suspended". How are you today? Your shift is it?

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/snake.jpg
Hsssssssssss!

Slither, slime, slither, slime, wallow in excrement, slither, slime, slither, slime.

http://www.redhotlindyhop.com/Images%20Newletter/Nov%202006/Cry-Baby.gif

GS has been naughty again miss! And I'm still leaking!!!

[grandsecretary]

Sorry? Do you have an opinion of your own?

Mike

Where did you say you worked again Mike? A genuine question.

[free thinker]

Doesn't even have the brain to understand the word "suspended". How are you today? Your shift is it?

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/snake.jpg
Hsssssssssss!

Slither, slime, slither, slime, wallow in excrement, slither, slime, slither, slime.

http://www.redhotlindyhop.com/Images%20Newletter/Nov%202006/Cry-Baby.gif

GS has been naughty again miss! And I'm still leaking!!!

Yes i understood suspended, of course i do, just couldn't equate to you having managed to post the fact you were suspended, unless of course The David Icke forums, offers " a Last Request"..... before being silencing members.

[grandsecretary]

I was being nice to the posteria who answered you, not you freethinker.

Just out to meet friends for an early meal and a nice cool glass of - last request. :D

I have no problem with the moderators here. I can be a little bit ... er, marginal, when a slap is called for. ;)

[free thinker]

I was being nice to the posteria who answered you, not you freethinker.

Just out to meet friends for an early meal and a nice cool glass of - last request. :D

I have no problem with the moderators here. I can be a little bit ... er, marginal, when a slap is called for. ;)

Doh. stoopid me, yes i see now, reading back...:o