Are Freemasons a brainwashing / religious cult?

[deathcultreject]

I think the question deserves some discussion, some facts and some definitions of terms perhaps.

This question has been moved from the goat riding thread,

so that the goatriding thread can remain pure.

[grandsecretary]

The Free Masonrie of The Grand Lodge of All England seeks to change the attitudes and values of society in order to more closely reflect its own attitudes and values.

It does this by ritual persuasion rather than "brain washing", but we must accept that ritual persuasion does have a changing effect on the thinking and future behaviour of those who accept its ethos, religion and teachings.

The Grand Lodge of All England is definitely deeply religious in its outlook and practices.

Straight answer to a straight question.

[stevepenny]

I think the question deserves some discussion, some facts and some definitions of terms perhaps.

This question has been moved from the goat riding thread,

so that the goatriding thread can remain pure.

I'll make this short.

No :)

[grandsecretary]

Well I agree with your "No", because it is an extreme description, but why not Steve? I think that is the point of debate. Do your rituals not change thinking? And is not your freemasonry religious rather than a religion? I believe that it is worth discussing.

[decim]

The question needs to be asked also, that if masonry from which emanates all aspects of civil, law, moral & religious aspects of life in the society of the UK, why is the country such a Godless cesspit, lacking any morals, or national well being?

Just Who is, pulling the strings.

[grandsecretary]

The question needs to be asked also, that if masonry from which emanates all aspects of civil, law, moral & religious aspects of life in the society of the UK, why is the country such a Godless cesspit, lacking any morals, or national well being?

Just Who is, pulling the strings.

Do you know this is such an important question. Too few Free Masons? That is our contention. Our Free Masons of course, not "theirs". ;)

They have had a go and failed. The ranks of Governments are almost entirely Mason free nowadays, so let those who succeeded in the past be revived and try again.

[decim]

The people being elected are for the most part wholly unremarkable & even lack a rudimentary life experience or degree of success in any particular field.

Where are the Brunel's, the Stephensons, the Christopher Wren's, the Verne's, Wells', Nelson's, Cook's & Shackleton's, where is OUR Space program & why did we allow the yanks force it stop?

Do you know this is such an important question. Too few Free Masons? That is our contention. Our Free Masons of course, not "theirs". ;)

They have had a go and failed. The ranks of Governments are almost entirely Mason free nowadays, so let those who succeeded in the past be revived and try again.

[deathcultreject]

Do you know this is such an important question. Too few Free Masons? That is our contention. Our Free Masons of course, not "theirs". ;)

They have had a go and failed. The ranks of Governments are almost entirely Mason free nowadays, so let those who succeeded in the past be revived and try again.

I thought this point required an opinion poll.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85471

Apologies if I worded it badly.

[deathcultreject]

The Free Masonrie of The Grand Lodge of All England seeks to change the attitudes and values of society in order to more closely reflect its own attitudes and values.

It does this by ritual persuasion rather than "brain washing", but we must accept that ritual persuasion does have a changing effect on the thinking and future behaviour of those who accept its ethos, religion and teachings.

The Grand Lodge of All England is definitely deeply religious in its outlook and practices.

Straight answer to a straight question.

A very straight answer.

It raises quite a few questions, or points of debate, so I might reffer to it and quote it more than once in due course.

[stevepenny]

Well I agree with your "No", because it is an extreme description, but why not Steve? I think that is the point of debate. Do your rituals not change thinking? And is not your freemasonry religious rather than a religion? I believe that it is worth discussing.

Peter,

Yes this subject is worthy of debate, but not whilst it is titled "Are Freemasons a Brainwashing / Religious Cult". That in itself puts the onus on Masonry to initially disprove the contention before it can establish what it is.

If the title were "Is Freemasonry a Religion / and does it harm those who join", then I might be more inclined to join in.;)

[deathcultreject]

Peter,

Yes this subject is worthy of debate, but not whilst it is titled "Are Freemasons a Brainwashing / Religious Cult". That in itself puts the onus on Masonry to initially disprove the contention before it can establish what it is.

If the title were "Is Freemasonry a Religion / and does it harm those who join", then I might be more inclined to join in.;)

I used the terms used on the goat riding thread where the question was raised.

Start another thread if you want, but it might look like wrangling the semantics. AKA 'spin'

[stevepenny]

Start another thread if you want, but it might look like wrangling the semantics. AKA 'spin'

No wrangling the semantics as you put it; just a desire to start with a less aggressive and less extreme position.

'Brainwashing' is defined as " Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs".

There is nothing even remotely Intensive or Forcible .

'Cult' is defined as "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader".

Which is complete nonsense.

[swethirte]

Do you know this is such an important question. Too few Free Masons? That is our contention. Our Free Masons of course, not "theirs". ;)

They have had a go and failed. The ranks of Governments are almost entirely Mason free nowadays, so let those who succeeded in the past be revived and try again.

Don't you do rituals then in your branch of Freemasonry?

[deathcultreject]

No wrangling the semantics as you put it; just a desire to start with a less aggressive and less extreme position.

Well it's an 'agressive and extreme position' that was threatening to derail the hallowed sanctity of the goat riding thread.

So I thought I'd move it into an apropriate quaranteen.

If you want to shun it in favour of discussing finer points, then don't blame me if people say that you don't want to discuss it at all.

I think I might go off and look for some lists of criteria that earn the notorious title of a 'cult' and then perhaps Freemasons of a less 'lily livered' persuasion might want to tick or cross the boxes to see how well they score.

[deathcultreject]

There is nothing 'agressive and extreme' about my choice of lists here.

I typed 'cult criteria' into google and this is what came up at the top of the list.

http://www.caic.org.au/general/cultcrit.htm

"Common Properties of Potentially Destructive Cults

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure.

The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering.

They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives. The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves.

Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members.

Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say. The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising.

Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive.

The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

The third set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of coercive psychological systems. If most of Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of thought reform is being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult. These eight points are:

1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL. Limitation of many/all forms of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters and visits with friends and family are taboo. "Come out and be separate!"

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION. The potential convert to the group becomes convinced of the higher purpose and special calling of the group through a profound encounter/experience, for example, through an alleged miracle or prophetic word of those in the group.

3. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or personal level. "Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed."

4. CULT OF CONFESSION. The unhealthy practice of self disclosure to members in the group. Often in the context of a public gathering in the group, admitting past sins and imperfections, even doubts about the group and critical thoughts about the integrity of the leaders.

5. SACRED SCIENCE. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required.

6. LOADED LANGUAGE. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members "think" within the very abstract and narrow parameters of the group's doctrine. The terminology sufficiently stops members from thinking critically by reinforcing a "black and white" mentality. Loaded terms and clich_s prejudice thinking.

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly and decisively interpreted through the absolute doctrine, even when experience contradicts the doctrine.

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE. Salvation is possible only in the group. Those who leave the group are doomed.

Cult Awareness & Information Center
PO Box 2444
Mansfield Q 4122 "

[deathcultreject]

It does this by ritual persuasion rather than "brain washing", but we must accept that ritual persuasion does have a changing effect on the thinking and future behaviour of those who accept its ethos, religion and teachings.


I agree that ritual can have a conditioning effect, not just on thinking but also on filters of perception, and the kind of luck which the participant experiences afterwards.

This is why I take the stance that a ritualist isn't 'free' unless they can understand and design their own rituals.

Forced or coerced ritual can be brainwashing or mind control by most people's definition.
(Abusers in ritual groups will hide their intentions behind false intentions which look reasonable or altruistic.)

So in this area, the question becomes;

Do Freemasons coerce or force people into rituals?

'Force' has allready been denied, but coercion is a trickier subject.

Do Freemasons have any kind of social 'sanctions' against someone who refuses to undertake a certain ritual?

Are Freemasons given less dignity and respect by fellow Freemasons if they are at a lower grade?

[stevepenny]

There is nothing 'agressive and extreme' about my choice of lists here.

I typed 'cult criteria' into google and this is what came up at the top of the list.

http://www.caic.org.au/general/cultcrit.htm

"Common Properties of Potentially Destructive Cults

An interesting read, but then again it limits itself to the subject of Destructive Cults. To me this refers to Jim Jones, Waco, and all the other Wacko cults in the world.

Taken to an extreme, early Christianity was defined as a Cult, and by some people still is.

[stevepenny]

I agree that ritual can have a conditioning effect, not just on thinking but also on filters of perception, and the kind of luck which the participant experiences afterwards.

I too would agree that the ritual can have a conditioning effect, in much the same way as religion can have a conditioning effect. The question should be is this a bad conditioning effect.

Teaching about morality, truth, brotherly love, honesty, and knowing one's inner self, can hardly be deemed to be bad.

This is why I take the stance that a ritualist isn't 'free' unless they can understand and design their own rituals.

The ritual is what it is; and has been for moer than 200 years. In Scotland Lodges are permitted to modify any ritual where they feel that it is ambiguous or difficult to understand.

'Force' has allready been denied, but coercion is a trickier subject.

Nobody is forced or coerced to join a Lodge. Lodges (at least in the UK) do not 'recruit' and anybody is free to leave, demit, resign, at any time they choose.

Do Freemasons have any kind of social 'sanctions' against someone who refuses to undertake a certain ritual?

Not that I am aware, and no I've never yet met anyone who has refused to undertake any ritual.

Are Freemasons given less dignity and respect by fellow Freemasons if they are at a lower grade?

Nowadays Masons tend to be entered and raised in a fairly short time so that they can be fully included in all aspects of Lodge life.

[deathcultreject]

Thank you Steve Penny.

I'm personaly inclined to think that a ritual subculture may have subtle mistakes in it's rituals which can gain momentum over time, making the subculture cultish whilst it might not be bad enough to be called a cult.

[deathcultreject]

An interesting read, but then again it limits itself to the subject of Destructive Cults. To me this refers to Jim Jones, Waco, and all the other Wacko cults in the world.

Yes.

The majority of cults aren't 'cool aid drinkers' but they can still damage the nature of the people involved, and can also cause serious errors of judgement (by the standards of people out side the cult)

The original accusation was that freemasons deffend freemasonrie or other freemasons deceitfuly, because of brainwashing.

[eastbeast]

Are Freemasons given less dignity and respect by fellow Freemasons if they are at a lower grade?


Not that I have seen yet, in fact on the occasion of his initiation into Freemasonry, the initiate sits in the second most important seat at the Festive Board, at the right hand side of the Master.

Thereafter, one moves seating position every time so as not to sit next to the same person every time, so getting to know everyone in the Lodge.

Hardly less dignity or respect IMO.

[thelonious]

So in this area, the question becomes;

Do Freemasons coerce or force people into rituals?

No, the candidate applies for the degree, pays an initiation fee, and mass the ballot in order to receive the degree. In other words, he personally requests the initiation ritual, and is willing to have his character scrutinized and pay the fee.


Do Freemasons have any kind of social 'sanctions' against someone who refuses to undertake a certain ritual?

No, but in the United States, only Master Masons (Third Degree members) are allowed to attend stated meetings, and the have the right to vote and hold office. The two lesser degrees are considered probationary.

Are Freemasons given less dignity and respect by fellow Freemasons if they are at a lower grade?

No. Newbies are assigned mentors to teach them, answer their questions, and generally to give them guidance. In Freemasonry it is recognized that the first degree Entered Apprentice of today is the Grand Master of tomorrow. Much time and dedication is given to instructing, getting to know, and fellowshipping with, the younger and newer initiates. One day, they will be the Craft's leaders.

[deathcultreject]

No. Newbies are assigned mentors to teach them, answer their questions, and generally to give them guidance. In Freemasonry it is recognized that the first degree Entered Apprentice of today is the Grand Master of tomorrow. Much time and dedication is given to instructing, getting to know, and fellowshipping with, the younger and newer initiates. One day, they will be the Craft's leaders.

If a newbie finds their mentor a bit dodgy, can they get another one?

[thelonious]

If a newbie finds their mentor a bit dodgy, can they get another one?

I've never personally seen that happen, but yes, they could request a different one if they didn't hit it off.

[deathcultreject]

I've never personally seen that happen, but yes, they could request a different one if they didn't hit it off.

So newbies have recourse against a corrupt mentor who tells tries to push them in a corrupt direction?

[thelonious]

So newbies have recourse against a corrupt mentor who tells tries to push them in a corrupt direction?

I'm not sure how there would be a "corrupt direction". The mentor's job is to instruct the candidate in the history and traditions of the Craft, along with ritual, philosophy, etc. Mentors generally have an official guide to go by to work with the new initiates.

Nevertheless, the candidate could always request the Master of the Lodge to assign someone else, although hopefully he wouldn't have to. Mentors should be assigned who have superior Masonic knowledge and skill, and high moral character.

[deathcultreject]

I've never personally seen that happen, but yes, they could request a different one if they didn't hit it off.

OK,

Is it possible that you might not see something which everyone outside the order can see?

[free thinker]

OK,

Is it possible that you might not see something which everyone outside the order can see?

Interesting question...i suppose the answer would be that until they 'see' a problem then they cant do anything about it..

[zebede]

In answer to the OP, Yes.

And so is most organised religion.

And so are most organised cults. Sorry I mean societies.

[stevepenny]

In answer to the OP, Yes.

And so is most organised religion.

And so are most organised cults. Sorry I mean societies.

Just one piece of evidence is all that is required. Over to you!!

[keystone]

OK,

Is it possible that you might not see something which everyone outside the order can see?Wood for trees syndrome huh? I have a teensy little problem with "everyone" oustide seeing something though.

Cheers

[deathcultreject]

Wood for trees syndrome huh? I have a teensy little problem with "everyone" oustide seeing something though.

Cheers

It happens with people into drugs, ritual and or NLP / brainwashing.

The group gets really bluntly into denial of things that they don't want to see.

No one seems to know when it's stupidity, and when it's intentional bullying against people who don't share the blind spot.

[grandsecretary]

All postings by me on this thread have been suspended. I am sorry but I am precluded for legal reasons.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England

[deathbeast]

no one is forced to join the masons, the term Free is there for a reason. if someone want to join they do so of their own free choice. if someone is not prepared to under go the rituals then they can walk away.i have known one initiate who was so unsure that he stopped the ritual just before he took the oath and chose not to go through with it. his father was a past master of the lodge and was witnessing the ritual. people choose to join for their own reasons.

[nayan]

Do you know this is such an important question. Too few Free Masons? That is our contention. Our Free Masons of course, not "theirs". ;)

They have had a go and failed. The ranks of Governments are almost entirely Mason free nowadays, so let those who succeeded in the past be revived and try again.

mason free? meaning they are not mason anymore?

[grandsecretary]

Very few Masons in government. If you take a look at our website and read the biographies of our Grand Masters you will see how many of them were at the very centre of government. No more, the UGLE ruined that, but we are trying to do something about it.

[boots]

Very few Masons in government. If you take a look at our website and read the biographies of our Grand Masters you will see how many of them were at the very centre of government. No more, the UGLE ruined that, but we are trying to do something about it.


It should be kept that way.


Who wants "a select few" dictating to the rest who are not masons or do not wish to have a secret society within government structures.


.

[grandsecretary]

It should be kept that way.


Who wants "a select few" dictating to the rest who are not masons or do not wish to have a secret society within government structures.


.

Not talking about a select few. As many as possible. The current lot is not a very good advertisment for "the rest" are they? You tell us. :(

[free thinker]

It should be kept that way.


Who wants "a select few" dictating to the rest who are not masons or do not wish to have a secret society within government structures.


.

Governments, are a select few, and NO government will ever lead to utopia, Power Corrupts....

[nayan]

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

http://www.grailcode.net/freemason.jpg

there may not be any freemasons in there, but there are surely freemasons in the government that are at a higher level.

[sedate_solution]

Give me a brainwashing anytime :rolleyes:

[deathcultreject]

Give me a brainwashing anytime :rolleyes:

Funny how the 'brainwashing positive' younger generation are the ones who skip around blurting 'child sex is great.'

I see a connection there.

[sedate_solution]

Funny how the 'brainwashing positive' younger generation are the ones who skip around blurting 'child sex is great.'

I see a connection there.

Hmmm, at least I still skip around :rolleyes:

[marpat]

I think the question deserves some discussion, some facts and some definitions of terms perhaps.

This question has been moved from the goat riding thread,

so that the goatriding thread can remain pure.

Why would they be? if they embrace virtues of good, honest living then why should that be a problem?

To my mind brainwashing is where you are incapable of any sort of individual thought, where the mind is under the will of some other controlling idea. I seriously doubt that freemasons fall into the definition which I use.

What do you think they are being brainwashed into and why?

[deathcultreject]

Hmmm, at least I still skip around :rolleyes:

Are you claiming to have information on my levels of skipiness?

[sedate_solution]

Are you claiming to have information on my levels of skipiness?

LoL, I can't help but love ya !

:D

[deathcultreject]

Why would they be? if they embrace virtues of good, honest living then why should that be a problem?

To my mind brainwashing is where you are incapable of any sort of individual thought, where the mind is under the will of some other controlling idea. I seriously doubt that freemasons fall into the definition which I use.

What do you think they are being brainwashed into and why?

Thank you for posting your definition :)

There was an accusation on the goat riding thread which seemed unfair against freemasons, but it would have been spot on if it had been against some other ritual groups.

We're still getting to the bottom of it, and so far the only thing we're agreeing on is that brainwashing is too strong a term for what anyone has seen of Freemasonry.

(from my point of view it's useful to find out about other people's definitions and impressions of what 'brainwashing' and 'mind control' mean)

Feel free to join in :)

[deathcultreject]

LoL, I can't help but love ya !

:D

If you're not answering questions,

Please don't talk to me.