For StevePenny Questions to StewartEdwards

[stewart edwards]

On the masonic beliefs thread I saidAll you need is some balls and moral fibre.

We agree that the masonic world needs to get back to basics. The question is how. My thoughts are:-

1. Generate thought, not so much as a short sharp shock, but more of something to get the boys thinking, to pause for a moment. I could easily do this if you can pack your grand lodge room with your grand officers. I would not be popular. That is probably the understatement of the year. I would expect some walk outs. But hearts would after 3 hours be beginning to open. And from that growth could emerge.

2. Over the ensuing months, once the dust has settled, those opening hearts would reflect and will would develop. After a few years as more and more hearts were opened by being around these initially opened hearts, you would begin to see a revitilisation at GL level.

3. All of the above would filter down, so in the course of a decade or two you would organically find yourself back to basics and thriving. Yes there would remain pockets of darkness but they would be illuminated by the renewed light and would either leave (oh no cant have that - yet another new fraternity and lost money - no no no cant have that!!!!) or be less dark.

4. Simultaeneously you need to enable bottom up revitilisation. Amongst other things you need to become more transparent in terms of encouraging the esoteric side, reducing internal ridicule, etc. This could be achieved by encouraging lodges to discuss these issues and show how they will implement them or ignore them, while keeping an eye out for the yes men responses, form over substance, and accepting that it will take time. Easy piezy though once the ball is rolling. You could for example also tie in grand lodge honours to having to write a page on such topics, which if nothing else would foce thought and aid the selection process, though again a weary eye for the cheats woudl be required. You could for example ask for a page to be written on how the masters table as shown in the museum could have helped initiates in days gone by and how this relates to current lodge practice? You also need to find ways of making it cheaper preferably down to Scots levels. Edinburgh is not a cheap place yet lodge fees can be 1/10 of those in England. You financially exclude large parts of the population down here. And you have to recognise, as Julians meridien lodge have that not everyone wants a festive board with formality etc. If that was an essential part of freeemasonry then GLoS and the american frats would do likewise. For the most part they dont. I realise that all of this will hit comfort zones but such is, if freemasonry cant offer a guiding hand to itself then that speaks volumes.

5. With regard to masonic reputation in the wider world this is where the real work is required. You need to clean house publicly (I can feel the cringing already), as you get back to basics. You will most likely need an initial amnesty to have any hope of getting this of the ground. But it is this that will over the medium term will enable you to regain all that you have lost in terms of trust and respect.

Thats probably enough for now. Though remember all that you have to do is expect your members to act like Freemasons - little things like follow the tenets and not hinder others from doing so (especially the tolerance and striving for truth bits). That should be easy. If it isnt you need to ask yourself are you really a masonic organisation anymore?

Simples.


My qualifications for the job:-

1. Seen first hand the darker sides of the masonic world so I am not nieve about it.
2. Walked myself out of darkness into light. If what I suspect is true I have actually lived a lot of what is taught in masonic ceremonies so can relate it to real life.
3. I am passionate to return the ancient mysteries to their proper place.
4. I have proven experience in helping masons (and indeed many more nonmasons) take steps forwards in their lives, some have even confirmed this on forums.
5. I have proven experience in inspiring people in several walks of life. Only little things I give you but peer respect is peer respect.
6. I am sufficiently in the system to be taken seriously yet sufficiently out of it to be able to be honest with people and be critical.

But:-

1. I would need to be able to do it without a salary from the job, so I guess that I would need to win the lottery. That way the old bu@@ers couldn't blackmail me or threaten me to try to get their own way on pain of loosingthe job for rocking the boat. And I would rock the boat, gently.
2. If I were doing it for ugle as opposed to any other of the fraternities I would need to be grand master with a good pro who could comfort those who would be feeling insecure and implement it all. This would enable me to become Europena president (how exactly could I apply for that job???) Do you think that Tony Blair would give me some tips? Anyhow this would mean that I would need to be of royal blood and as you cant buy that it is all a no goer. Unless you know someone else who can do all of the above and who has the necessary life experiences - In which case I would happily point them in the right direction. Seriously.

Better stop Walting now.Steve asked for lots of detail (cant do quotes in quotes sorry) and I saidProbably a good place for you to start would be to talk to your ugle brothers who have read my posts over the last half decade or so on masonic forums, Mike and Keystone would be good starting points. They can confirm to you that I have detailed it all, many times over the years. You could also use any contacts you have in UGLE to see my correspondence to them over the years some of which has detailed upcoming issues and solutions, which on at least one occassion was addressed in a grand master speech (though I accept that my letter could have nothing to do with that - coincidence etc)

If you want me to answer every point above I will, but it will take several pages and would probably be best on a separate thread. If you want to start it I will respond. probably read easiest if you asked for the details of the first point, which I then respond to, then once you have finished with any quieries re that move onto the next one.

For what it is worth Steve I dont expect to get the job (in case there is any doubt in your mind) just generting thought.

[stewart edwards]

1. Generate thought, not so much as a short sharp shock, but more of something to get the boys thinking, to pause for a moment. I could easily do this if you can pack your grand lodge room with your grand officers. I would not be popular. That is probably the understatement of the year. I would expect some walk outs. But hearts would after 3 hours be beginning to open. And from that growth could emerge.To which Steve saidThat's a very noble sentiment but it does lack substance. What specifically would you talk about?

Steve this is the one that I dont really want to give to much away on as I would be opening hearts during those 3 hours, and quite frankly it is one of those things that to much foreknowledge could dilute the message and make it less effective. So in this case I will be as specific as I can, but no where near as specific as I could be. I hope that you understand.

I would cover in no specific order:-

1. What ugle defines freemasonry to be and how this is applied in practice. Citing examples related to the tenets. Looking at how some of these issues are in practice holding ugle and its members back as well as in some cases helping damage its reputation in the wider world. (Note for clarity - the tenets are great but it is issues relating to their application).
2. Specific events in my life that have intertwined my life with freemasonry (those who have read my posts over the years should have no shocks here). Both good and bad.
3. Specific life events (perhaps using small visual aids) that are directly relevant to opening hearts in the masonic world, though not in themseves masonic.

People would be put on the spot. Forced to think about difficult issues. About half way through many would not like me much, but by the end it would recover as hearts began to open.

Do I have any realistic expectation that ugle wil let me do this? Of course not but it would be in its benefit if it did for it would be an enabler for it as more hearts opened and energy began to renew. I could however get lynched.


Anyhow Steve over to you. As I said above in this case I dont want to get to specific for that will dilute such an events effectiveness (if people went in knowing precisley what was coming). But if you have any questions around this please ask away. Also anyone else. Once this point has been inactive for a day or two I will move on to the next point, if requested to do so.

[stevepenny]

To which Steve said

Steve this is the one that I dont really want to give to much away on as I would be opening hearts during those 3 hours, and quite frankly it is one of those things that to much foreknowledge could dilute the message and make it less effective. So in this case I will be as specific as I can, but no where near as specific as I could be. I hope that you understand.

I would cover in no specific order:-

1. What ugle defines freemasonry to be and how this is applied in practice. Citing examples related to the tenets. Looking at how some of these issues are in practice holding ugle and its members back as well as in some cases helping damage its reputation in the wider world. (Note for clarity - the tenets are great but it is issues relating to their application).
2. Specific events in my life that have intertwined my life with freemasonry (those who have read my posts over the years should have no shocks here). Both good and bad.
3. Specific life events (perhaps using small visual aids) that are directly relevant to opening hearts in the masonic world, though not in themseves masonic.

People would be put on the spot. Forced to think about difficult issues. About half way through many would not like me much, but by the end it would recover as hearts began to open.

Do I have any realistic expectation that ugle wil let me do this? Of course not but it would be in its benefit if it did for it would be an enabler for it as more hearts opened and energy began to renew. I could however get lynched.


Anyhow Steve over to you. As I said above in this case I dont want to get to specific for that will dilute such an events effectiveness (if people went in knowing precisley what was coming). But if you have any questions around this please ask away. Also anyone else. Once this point has been inactive for a day or two I will move on to the next point, if requested to do so.

Stewart,

In my initial reply it should have been clear that you are, IMHO, talking from a position that at face value does not include a great deal of knowledge in terms of Freemasonry.

As you have said yourself, this in unlikely to be taken up by UGLE, and so there is no harm in expanding on your thoughts in this forum. Rather than a back and forth approach, perhaps you could address the points from my post in the following order:

What ugle defines freemasonry to be and how this is applied in practice. Citing examples related to the tenets. Looking at how some of these issues are in practice holding ugle and its members back as well as in some cases helping damage its reputation in the wider world.

Perhaps you could give one relevant example of this.

You seem to like the theme of 'Darkness' and yet you do not define what this 'Darkness' is.

A simple explanation will do.

I said: What makes you think that we do not discuss the esoteric side of Freemasonry. After all it defines itself in terms of "...vieled in allegory and illustrated by symbols...".

You have not answered.

I Said: What are the lodge fees in UGLE? I know what they are up here, perhaps you could state them so we might compare.

You have not answered.

I Said in relation to Festive Boards: Do we not?

You have not answered.

I don't wish to appear abrubt :) but you claim to be the 'solution' to the Masonic problem, whereas you do not seem to be able to define what the problem is.

I acknowledge that you have played a small part in your local lodge, even though you are not a Freemason; but your Masonic knowledge seems to be restricted to a small part of the craft.

How can you comment on ritual that you have never experienced, how can you comment on esoterism and allegory without a firm grounding in the ritual?

Put another way; I used to teach history at degree level, and did so from a position of authority, i.e. having the relevant qualification and experience; not from reading the books of Simon Sharma or watching Time Team.:)

[stewart edwards]

Stewart,

In my initial reply it should have been clear that you are, IMHO, talking from a position that at face value does not include a great deal of knowledge in terms of Freemasonry.

As you have said yourself, this in unlikely to be taken up by UGLE, and so there is no harm in expanding on your thoughts in this forum. Rather than a back and forth approach, perhaps you could address the points from my post in the following order:As you wish.



Perhaps you could give one relevant example of this.The stiffling of the searching of truth through ridiculing those interested in the esoteric side of masonry. By way of evidince I would hope that in the audience would be a mason who could personally confirm his experience of this.



A simple explanation will do.Darkness is being ego controled, being diverted form the path by your inner demons/fears/etc.



You have not answered.That would be because I was going to do it point by point Steve. I have had sufficient conversations with masons, plenty of whom have clearly stated that it is all mummery and in one case that there is nothing esoteric at all about freemasonry. I know others who have either been on the receiving, or in one case admits to being on the giving end, of ridiculing those who follow such a path. Equally I have the good fortune to know a number of esoterically aware masons and those that can see the inner beauty of the ritual.



You have not answered.Again beacuse I was doing it step by step Steve. I was quoted about £300 a year, I know others who pay between £300 and £400 a year. Masons in my family back home (Edinburgh)tell me that a tenth of this is more typical. Indeed I think you also said this here recently.


You have not answered.Again beacuse I was doing it point by point. By your own admission most scots lodges have harmonies with occassional formal meals. My point, as I explained above, was that if a formal full festive board was essential to freemasonry all lodges would do it (like they do the ritual) but no some have harmonies, some agapes, and some I am aware none at all.

I don't wish to appear abrubt :) but you claim to be the 'solution' to the Masonic problem,When have I said that. I have offered solutions, some of which have helped individual masons, there are a few who post on masonic forums, Mike and Keystone could probably guess some, and some have posted to this effect. I have also encourged various high hied yins raising issues and solutions or just encouraging. One example I gave in my original post.

whereas you do not seem to be able to define what the problem is. Thats a bit off given that I have been stating it for many years now on masonic forums and indeed here. Darkness has slowly and silently penetrated over the past few generations and is now largely unnoticed except by people who decide enough is enough and leave.

I acknowledge that you have played a small part in your local lodge,Dont know where you got that from Steve, it is totally inaccurate.

even though you are not a Freemason; but your Masonic knowledge seems to be restricted to a small part of the craft.So it would appear.

How can you comment on ritual that you have never experienced,I dont. Show me once that I have beyond general comments eg re outwardly esoteric rituals eg lauderdale v say emulation. I have read neither by the way, though some years back I did flick read emulation on the web. As your brothers can confirm to you I have done my best to keep away form reading ritual.

how can you comment on esoterism and allegory without a firm grounding in the ritual?Somethings you just know. The confirmations come from your brothers over the years not from me by the way. I just write form my heart.

Put another way; I used to teach history at degree level, and did so from a position of authority, i.e. having the relevant qualification and experience; not from reading the books of Simon Sharma or watching Time Team.:)Perhaps I have the relevant experience hotwired into me? Who knows. But what is for sure I didnt get it from books. Those masons did point me towards books after I started writing.

Mike Martin would be a good person to talk to Steve for he had to suffer me half a decade ago when I was just making sense of it all. I am well known to many of your brothers, you could talk to any long term member of tfm (I stoped posting there 5 years ago ish), mfolight (until a couple of years ago) CP, mfolife. Some like me, some dont, some agree with me, some dont. Some even have been known to positively encourage me.

It is a pity that you clearly havent read my posts over the past decade Steve. Some of your brothers have taken the time to thank me for them.

[mike martin]

Mike Martin would be a good person to talk to Steve for he had to suffer me half a decade ago when I was just making sense of it all. I am well known to many of your brothers, you could talk to any long term member of tfm (I stoped posting there 5 years ago ish), mfolight (until a couple of years ago) CP, mfolife. Some like me, some dont, some agree with me, some dont. Some even have been known to positively encourage me.

It is a pity that you clearly havent read my posts over the past decade Steve. Some of your brothers have taken the time to thank me for them.
Actually I'm not someone to talk to about Stewart, not if you want to start off with a blank canvas.

I would not want to blot Stewart's figurative copybook before you even get started. I note with interest that you have asked questions and inferred points that I have done, previously.

That is my input, in total.

Mike

[stewart edwards]

Mike, pity for as we have had issues you would actually be a very good person to talk to Steve re my early days on forums. I have no problem you blotting my copybook at all. It may be an error in my judgement, but I judge you to be fair.

I will share a little secret with you, I expect to be pretty quiet over the next few years as I will be too busy learning ritual and being a good boy. So you most probably are going to see the back of me:eek:

In the meantime I have generated thought, which I know has helped some of your brothers. Pity that it took an outsider to do it.


Evil cackle....hahahahah...evil cackle.....:D

[stevepenny]

Hi Stewart,

When I wrote that you do not seem to be able to define what the problem is, you replied with the following;

Thats a bit off given that I have been stating it for many years now on masonic forums and indeed here. Darkness has slowly and silently penetrated over the past few generations and is now largely unnoticed except by people who decide enough is enough and leave.

I have not read any of your thoughts either here on on the other forums on which I participate (CARM and Lodgeroom International) but am surprised to read that the problem is one of darkness. Especially when coupled to your statement that Darkness is defined as:

Darkness is being ego controled, being diverted form the path by your inner demons/fears/etc.

If you truly believe this then you truly do not understand Freemasonry, or its inherent problems. But more of this in a future post.

When asked for an example of how you could help Freemasonry, and what you might discuss, you comment that;

The stiffling of the searching of truth through ridiculing those interested in the esoteric side of masonry. By way of evidince I would hope that in the audience would be a mason who could personally confirm his experience of this.

Personally I have never heard anybody being ridiculed for having an interest in the esoteric elements of the craft, but would love to hear from those who have been. Anybody who does should attend a meeting of their local research lodge, which in some instances can be more akin to 'Harry Potter' than the gentle craft.

.....and in one case that there is nothing esoteric at all about freemasonry. I know others who have either been on the receiving, or in one case admits to being on the giving end, of ridiculing those who follow such a path. Equally I have the good fortune to know a number of esoterically aware masons and those that can see the inner beauty of the ritual.

What does Freemasonry seek to achieve? What is it's stated goal? I wont make it easy for you but it will help to answer your point above. If you knew the answer then you would not make the statement.

Again beacuse I was doing it step by step Steve. I was quoted about £300 a year, I know others who pay between £300 and £400 a year. Masons in my family back home (Edinburgh)tell me that a tenth of this is more typical. Indeed I think you also said this here recently.

Thanks for clarifying this. In Scotland, annual test fees are in the region of £30, with various add-ons for the RA, Templars, PM's etc; but nowhere near £300.

Again beacuse I was doing it point by point. By your own admission most scots lodges have harmonies with occassional formal meals. My point, as I explained above, was that if a formal full festive board was essential to freemasonry all lodges would do it (like they do the ritual) but no some have harmonies, some agapes, and some I am aware none at all.

No-one has suggested that they are essential to Freemasonry; I was rebutting your throw away comment that;

If that was an essential part of freeemasonry then GLoS and the american frats would do likewise. For the most part they dont.

The point is that they do. I've visited several US lodges where the Festive Board is very much in evidence; as is the Harmony in Scottish Lodges. In Scotland the Harmony has never been about a sit-down formal meal although installations are always run on that basis. The Harmony is about eating and drinking in an informal post-work atmosphere. We generaly don't tyle until 7.15pm meaning that some working goes on to 10pm or later; making formal meals problematic. Further more, no-one is oblidged to attend either a lodge meeting, or the Harmony, which takes 'cost' out of the equation.

I wrote that I acknowledged that you have played a small part in your local lodge, whereas you replied Dont know where you got that from Steve, it is totally inaccurate. . Perhaps I misunderstood or have confused you with another forum member, you have my apologies.

I asked how can you comment on ritual that you have never experienced.

Your reply confused me in as much that you wrote I dont. Show me once that I have beyond general comments eg re outwardly esoteric rituals eg lauderdale v say emulation. I have read neither by the way, though some years back I did flick read emulation on the web. As your brothers can confirm to you I have done my best to keep away form reading ritual.

I was referring to how you might address a lodge meeting, not what you have stated thus far. In as much that the Ritual goes to the heart of the matter, the question still stands. How do you address the 'problem' when the problem is centered around the ritual. I also find it curious that you believe Emulation not be to esoteric when compared to Lauderdale. Firstly Lauderdale is Indian (Dharma) in origin and is not a recognised Masonic Ritual, other than with the LDH, and Emulation is the ritual used in around 50% of UGLE Lodges.

Note: The 50% figure is based on a straw poll on a Masonic forum.

Lauderdale is esoteric, but blatantly so, Emulation is much more subtle in its approach. Here in Scotland we do things our own way and do not use Emulation nor Taylor's.

how can you comment on esoterism and allegory without a firm grounding in the ritual? Somethings you just know. The confirmations come from your brothers over the years not from me by the way. I just write form my heart.

Very commendable but it lacks a certain authority. Perhaps we should put this to the test, although you may wish to engage in this using PM rather than in a public forum.

It is a pity that you clearly havent read my posts over the past decade Steve. Some of your brothers have taken the time to thank me for them.

Stewart, I find it hard to catch up after a weekend, let alone 10 years worth.:)

[mike martin]

Thanks for clarifying this. In Scotland, annual test fees are in the region of £30, with various add-ons for the RA, Templars, PM's etc; but nowhere near £300.
Hi Steve, I'll just fix this little innaccuracy!

Subscription to an English Lodge is between £90 and £100 per year, this includes: admin costs (Secretary etc), the fees to both the Province, Grand Lodge and standard donation to the Grand Charity.

On top of this is the Dining Fee (if a member chooses to dine after meetings, it's not compulsory) my London Lodge is £36 per meeting (5x36= 180) my West Kent Lodge is £13 per meeting (5 x 13 =65). The cost merely reflects where the Lodge meets, you would be hard pressed to find a Provincial Mason paying £200 all-in per year, let alone £300

There are also English Lodges that have harmonies, in the main they tend to be the daylight Lodges, I am a regular visiter to one.

Extra Degrees = extra fees but they're all pretty cheap. IE my Chapter = £60 per year and Mark = £45.

Hope this clarifies England a bit for you.
Mike

[stewart edwards]

Yikes where do I startIf you truly believe this then you truly do not understand Freemasonry, or its inherent problems. But more of this in a future post.That is entirely possible. I used to always put "I could be wrong" after my posts but it annoyed some of your brothers who felt, actually I am not sure what they felt, but after a lot of persuasion I stopped attaching it.

Very commendable but it lacks a certain authority. Perhaps we should put this to the test, although you may wish to engage in this using PM rather than in a public forum.No I am happy with a public forum. I have nowt to hide and if I prove myself to be a prat so be it. My ego can cope. What sort of test do you have in mind Steve?


Stewart, I find it hard to catch up after a weekend, let alone 10 years worth.:)I do understand this Steve. It is a shame though for you would then have understood me better and how I have got to where I am today. Anyhow a couple of final points, somewhere above, I interpreted rightly or wrongly that you thought that I was evangelical. I should reflect upon that for nothing could be further from the truth. Though I accept that this may not be immediately obvious.

In any case as it is possible that next year I will be joining a small lodge, it is all rapidly becoming history. For should I take this step I expect that I will be focusing on learning ritual for a few years, and the time for this will come from my forum time. Oh and in case it crosses anyones mind I wont be becoming one of these "lets promote my lodge/fraternity" types when I do post. I have done my bit in generating thought.

[stevepenny]

No I am happy with a public forum. I have nowt to hide and if I prove myself to be a prat so be it. My ego can cope. What sort of test do you have in mind Steve?

Stewart,

I'm not suggesting a test as in a challenge; i'm more interested in your thought process and how you arrived at you current position. My intention is not to ridicule anybody; after all, that is one of your 'observations' with regards esoterism within the craft.

There were two questions within the body of my post, one of which was

What does Freemasonry seek to achieve?

I would also be interested in your thoughts on the allegory behind the Hiram Legend.

...I interpreted rightly or wrongly that you thought that I was evangelical. I should reflect upon that for nothing could be further from the truth. Though I accept that this may not be immediately obvious.

Your posts do suggest an element of evangelism, intended or otherwise.

In any case as it is possible that next year I will be joining a small lodge, it is all rapidly becoming history. For should I take this step I expect that I will be focusing on learning ritual for a few years, and the time for this will come from my forum time.

I wish you well in this endevour :)

[stevepenny]

Hi Steve, I'll just fix this little innaccuracy!

Thanks Mike.

[stewart edwards]

What does Freemasonry seek to achieve? From what I can fathom - helping you know yourself. And from this helping you travel through life a little easier. I do know that some freemason disagree with this. (eg Its just a social club Stewart nothing else).

I would also be interested in your thoughts on the allegory behind the Hiram Legend.Would you believe me if I told you that I have never really given it all that much thought? I rather suspect that the ruffians are our inner demons - fear etc.


I wish you well in this endevour :)If it happens it happens and if it doesnt it doesnt. I am sure that the masonic world will continue without me.

[stevepenny]

From what I can fathom - helping you know yourself. And from this helping you travel through life a little easier. I do know that some freemason disagree with this. (eg Its just a social club Stewart nothing else).

Freemasonry seeks to make good men better; but doesn't define how that might be acheived.

Among the pre-requisites are a belief in a supreme being, and being of good report. That genearally suggests an individual with a modicum of morality and a man with an open mind with regards religion.

In terms of making men better, it is up to the individual to make the journey, and to take from the craft, as little or as much as he needs to acheive it.

Some can acheive a state of moral living through nothing more than association with like minded individual; whereas others seek to delve into the hidden mysteries of the craft to find the answers.

But these are not the problem with Freemasonry; and neither is the problem the same throughout the land. In general terms we are suffering from a shrinking membership; the old guard are leaving (usually in a wooden box) and new members are hard to attract. The fact that Freemasonry does not advertise is both a blessing and a curse.

Those who do join, do so for their own reasons; some selfishly believe that they will learn some great secret which will give them a position of power; some hope to obtain Masonic patronage to give them a 'leg-up' in the world; and some like myself, join because they believe Freemasonry can offer something that is missing from their spritual self.

You can tell the selfish ones; they join, the are raised, and they leave. Good riddance to them. You can tell the ones seeking patronage; they join, hang around for a few months; and then leave. Others join; learn the ritual; go through the various offices; and in some cases look to the side orders in order to broaden their outlook and their Masonic knowledge.

The shrinking membership is not a Masonic problem; it is one based on our current society. We no longer want or need to associate or interact with each other, prefering to talk, shop, and even work on-line in the comfort of our own homes. Church congregations are shrinking as people no longer have time to attend on a Sunday or their particular day of worship.

We no longer work 9 to 5, which causes problems for those wanting to attend Lodges on a regular basis. I am fortunate that I work 7.30am to 4pm which gives me bags of time; but when I was teaching I would often be in the office at 7 or 8pm dealing with students and their associated problems.

As a society we are no longer interested in 'History' and the 'Classics'; which is why I left teaching; as classes were growing smaller each year. Nowadays students want to do Business Studies, Modren Studies, Socialogy, and even degrees in Leather (yes i couldn't believe it either).

Where I think Freemasonry needs a kick up the backside is that Masonic Education, i.e. opening the box a little, has to a degree been side-lined, in an attempt to practice more ritual so that more individuals can be included.

Would you believe me if I told you that I have never really given it all that much thought? I rather suspect that the ruffians are our inner demons - fear etc.

The point is that it can be what you want it to be. You take from it what you want, and leave the rest behind.

The subjects of the three degrees can be broken down into Birth, Life and Death, in that order; with the most esoteric being the Hiram Legend.

Some believe that it is a story of moral courage; i.e. not revealing those things that you have promised not to reveal. Others believe it is an allegory for the life of Jesus Christ; and there are many pointers within the legend to suggest that this is the true meaning.

As I said Stewart, this is not a 'test'. And I truly believe you mean well; but until you have been through the rituals yourself, and have spent some time in office, including membership of the lodge commitee; you are hardly in a position to judge.

But please don't let that stop you from giving your opinion. I have been at this for more years than i care to remember; but I am always learning, and i'm never always right ;)

[stewart edwards]

Steve

Would it suprise you to know that I have written extensively on these very problems and societal changes that you mention, over the years on masonic forums?

There is an important point that you have missed:-

You admit that many join for the worng reason and leave. Some of these no doubt leave a wee bit bitter/disillusioned. The result is that the community learn things form ex maons which may or may not be true. This has adversely affected the masonic reputation and public trust. (remember that in England the masonic world is far less ingrained in the community compared with Scotland).

Now where did this start to go wrong. In my opinion after the first world war when you opened the doors to lost lonely and broken men. This was one of the kindest most charitable things you have done. But it has been a double edged sword for it has also been the seeds of the current problem. Clearly compounded after the second world war.

Now, think about this Steve. You have masses of men join, many with no interest in masonic stuff beyond friendship. They have a military understanding. By sheer mass this has resulted through recent generations of the core essence of masonry being sidelined. Not through any specific manevolent act, but as an unexpected consequence of kindness. This is how darkness has crept in as freemasonry has become anything to anyone and the core (and masonic education you alluded to) has become neglected or even in some casees not seen as relevant or as interesting as what time the bar opens. This is why you need to reopen hearts.

Just a thought

It is actually a very exciting time to watch the masonic world to see if it rises to the challenge of socital changes, or whether it becomes the has-been that many see it as.

[stevepenny]

Now where did this start to go wrong. In my opinion after the first world war when you opened the doors to lost lonely and broken men. This was one of the kindest most charitable things you have done. But it has been a double edged sword for it has also been the seeds of the current problem. Clearly compounded after the second world war.

Now, think about this Steve. You have masses of men join, many with no interest in masonic stuff beyond friendship. They have a military understanding. By sheer mass this has resulted through recent generations of the core essence of masonry being sidelined. Not through any specific manevolent act, but as an unexpected consequence of kindness. This is how darkness has crept in as freemasonry has become anything to anyone and the core (and masonic education you alluded to) has become neglected or even in some casees not seen as relevant or as interesting as what time the bar opens. This is why you need to reopen hearts.

Stewart,

Just a quick reply as time is pressing this afternoon. This from a paper by John Belton PM and published by my local Research Lodge. Although it centers on the American problem, it still holds good for the UK:

At first sight the fact that membership in nineteen states' peaked in 1928 and 1963 (see figure 3) might lead one to that conclusion. However, if one considers the formula for membership given earlier, it is worth examining further the trends in new members and total membership.

Because of the twenty-fold difference between Raisings and Members, different scales are used in figure 3 to allow a visual comparison between the peaks and troughs of the two sets of data. It is interesting to compare the U.S. data with that for Australia. It is quite evident, though, that the influx of new masons peaked or bottomed well before its impact was felt in the total membership figure! It is of course true that the number of masons for quite some period after both World Wars increased and that lodges would have felt themselves to be prospering - but the graph makes it clear, with the benefit of the exact science of hindsight, that the decline was in fact both inevitable and predictable - if the number of raisings had been but tracked.

The increase in membership seen after WWII was not from men joining after 1945, the end of the war - it was the result of a strong thirteen-year upward trend from 1933 which peaked in 1946. Curiously the end of that war saw "John Doe" becoming less inclined to become a freemason with each passing year.

Logic seems to demand that we accept that membership would fall after the Wall Street Crash because of the great personal hardships it caused, and that some of the contraction in membership must have been income-related. Yet underlying this was a sharply falling number of new members from 1920 through to 1933, a fall that started nine years before the Wall Street Crash. The timings were mere coincidence! If a man dying of cancer is killed by a truck, his long-term disease is forgotten, and the spectacular accident is remembered.

For whatever reason, men started to join in increasing numbers from 1933 almost as soon as the recovery from the Great Depression started, and this growth continued at a sustained upward pace until 1946. There is no obvious explanation for this, but it is not purely an American phenomenon because the patterns in Australia and England are remarkably similar. The similarity of the Australian data and the English data for new masons is thought-provoking. Sadly U.G.L.E. does not publish total membership figures, and only those for new members are available.

The common wisdom is that men joined in large numbers after the World Wars, and that this accounts for the post-war membership peaks. The facts, however, show to the contrary that men started joining in ever smaller numbers soon after the end of the wars. The myth and the fact are diametrically opposed. This conundrum is examined later in the paper, in particular in relation to the views of Robert Putnam, Francis Fukuyama, and John Kenneth Galbraith.

[stewart edwards]

See Steve I told you that I could be wrong.