FAO GS And Keystone

[zyphus]

I came on here a while ago and said that I'd spoken to a Mason who attended harmony with Tony Blair. The fact still remains and I'm genuinely reporting what I was told. I've asked him again and he remains steadfast in his assertion and I see no need for him to lie over such a simple matter. I didn't even know what harmony was when I originally posted what I did.

I'm not one to prod and pry, but I do know that the guy in question was initiated in an Edinburgh lodge. Forgive my ignorance, but would that automatically infer that he is GLOS? I'm only asking this due to the American heritage of the Scottish rite.

[mike martin]

I came on here a while ago and said that I'd spoken to a Mason who attended harmony with Tony Blair. The fact still remains and I'm genuinely reporting what I was told. I've asked him again and he remains steadfast in his assertion and I see no need for him to lie over such a simple matter. I didn't even know what harmony was when I originally posted what I did.

I'm not one to prod and pry, but I do know that the guy in question was initiated in an Edinburgh lodge. Forgive my ignorance, but would that automatically infer that he is GLOS? I'm only asking this due to the American heritage of the Scottish rite.

Tony Blair is not and has never been a member of a Lodge under the UGLE. Although it is possible for Blair to be a member of or be able to join a Scottish Lodge it is highly unlikley as he would have to live in Scotland to do so.

YES if your friend states that he was Initiated into an Edinburgh Masonic Lodge he would be a member of GLoS. Of course beware, because in Scotland it is also possible for him to join a Lodge of the Orange Order which is not Masonic.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Tony Blair would NOT be a member of an Orange Lodge. He is a Roman Catholic Mike.

This is not enough information for us to offer our opinion, or change our view which is that he is not a freemason, but possible a Knight of St Columba.

May I offer some assistance if this is bothering anyone. Zyphus, if this person who has made the claim would care to telephone me, in confidence, then I will ask the right questions and advise either you, or this forum, as you wish.

0113 203 7233 - Monday through Friday - 09.30 to 17.30

Peter Clatworthy

[mike martin]

Tony Blair would NOT be a member of an Orange Lodge. He is a Roman Catholic Mike.

Should've made that clearer, I was talking about Zyphus's acquaintence/informant with the 2nd para.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Yes, I know, but it has to be cleared up otherwise it will come up again and again. The offer is there, genuinely.

[keystone]

Hi Zyphus

Doesn't seem much has changed since I wrote this:

".......... because I've had harmony with him .........." isn't confirmation that Blair is a mason for a single moment. "Harmony" is a Scots Masonry tradition (if thats the correct word) which takes place after a masonic meeting has been completed. Its a little R&R over a few (well;)) drinks and smallie eats. Non-masons are frequently present at the "harmony". So Bliar could easily have attended a harmony as a non-mason. This is not proof of anything.

back in July. In that case I'm really quite as happy now as I was then to accept that your informant had "harmony" with the person in question.

So we still don't really know then.

Cheers

[zyphus]

Tony Blair is not and has never been a member of a Lodge under the UGLE.

I genuinely can't put across enough about how I'm not immersed in this affair. (Anon).. But on an even keel though Mike, I couldn't care much and I'm kinda going out of my way.. I'm not trying to convince anyone though. The guy I spoke to is (Now I know) GLoS.

Tony Blair would NOT be a member of an Orange Lodge. He is a Roman Catholic Mike.
Peter Clatworthy

You seem to have hit on a specific thing there GS.

Should've made that clearer, I was talking about Zyphus's acquaintence/informant with the 2nd para.

Mike

Mike, he's a Mason for God sake, and proud of it. He simply, and proudly, told me that he attended harmony with Tony Blair. Which straight laced human being wouldn't?

[zyphus]

Hi Zyphus

Doesn't seem much has changed since I wrote this:



back in July. In that case I'm really quite as happy now as I was then to accept that your informant had "harmony" with the person in question.

So we still don't really know then.

Cheers

I'm none too sure of your response Keystone to be fair, I didn't realise it was such a big do my friend. I absolutely stand by what I said and it can be proven in the physical.

Chill out a bit fella. I'm not a Mason Conspiritist.

[keystone]

I'm none too sure of your response Keystone to be fair, I didn't realise it was such a big do my friend. I absolutely stand by what I said and it can be proven in the physical.Oh it isn't a big deal at all. No reason that he could not have attended as I said back in July thats my point but it doesn't actually make him a freemason because he did attend. Your friend says he attended. Thats fine by me. Simples.

When I said nothing had changed it wasn't meant in a derogatory fashion at all. I quite believe your friend in respect of Bliars attendance at a nice social event. I'm not questioning what you say.

Chill out a bit fella. I'm not a Mason Conspiritist.Oh I'm totally chilled. I'm not the one rushing about making enquiries hither and thither.

Cheers

[keystone]

Theres a very very simple answer to this "is Bliar a freemason or not" question. Wait 'til stevepenny gets back on Monday and ask him to check GLoS records.

Cheers

[zero1]

Tony Blair is not and has never been a member of a Lodge under the UGLE. Although it is possible for Blair to be a member of or be able to join a Scottish Lodge it is highly unlikley as he would have to live in Scotland to do so.

YES if your friend states that he was Initiated into an Edinburgh Masonic Lodge he would be a member of GLoS. Of course beware, because in Scotland it is also possible for him to join a Lodge of the Orange Order which is not Masonic.

Mike

The bit in bold, you really believe the Orange Order has no Masonic connexions? That is not what is widely believed (or evident) here in the South of Ireland.

[zyphus]

Oh it isn't a big deal at all. No reason that he could not have attended as I said back in July thats my point but it doesn't actually make him a freemason because he did attend. Your friend says he attended. Thats fine by me. Simples.

When I said nothing had changed it wasn't meant in a derogatory fashion at all. I quite believe your friend in respect of Bliars attendance at a nice social event. I'm not questioning what you say.

Oh I'm totally chilled. I'm not the one rushing about making enquiries hither and thither.

Cheers

Keystone, I'm not disputing you my friend, not right now! I'm a little drunk, do forgive me. I will debate you tomorrow, although I feel you are being a little too harsh. Do forgive me..

[keystone]

Keystone, I'm not disputing you my friend, not right now! I'm a little drunk, do forgive me. I will debate you tomorrow, although I feel you are being a little too harsh. Do forgive me..I'm really not trying to be harsh at all. Sorry if I come over that way. I don't see what there is to debate frankly. I'll get a beer as well then. :D

Cheers

[mike martin]

The bit in bold, you really believe the Orange Order has no Masonic connexions? That is not what is widely believed (or evident) here in the South of Ireland.
I've got to tell you that there are people in the South of Ireland who think Freemasons are 6 foot lizard men, that isn't true either! The misunderstanding that you talk of exists in the North and Scotland as well.

However, Just cos a few people think it, doesn't make it true and a simple reality check is helpful:

The first thing to remember is there is just the one Grand Lodge of Ireland, that means the Masons of both North and South are members of the one Grand Lodge. So you need to ask yourself how long would that last if it had anything to do with the LOL.

Something started by Masons isn't automatically Masonic itself!
Something copying a bit of Masonic ritual doesn't automatically make it Masonic.
Sometimes something even saying it is Masonic doesn't make it Masonic.

There are often debates about whether Irish Masons should really be able to be members of things like the LOL and the Hibernians, as their objectives are very sectarian and diametrically opposed to Freemasonry. However the debate always hits a brick wall because those organisations neither are, nor claim to be, Masonic.

Mike

[zero1]

I've got to tell you that there are people in the South of Ireland who think Freemasons are 6 foot lizard men, that isn't true either! The misunderstanding that you talk of exists in the North and Scotland as well.

However, Just cos a few people think it, doesn't make it true and a simple reality check is helpful:

The first thing to remember is there is just the one Grand Lodge of Ireland, that means the Masons of both North and South are members of the one Grand Lodge. So you need to ask yourself how long would that last if it had anything to do with the LOL.

Something started by Masons isn't automatically Masonic itself!
Something copying a bit of Masonic ritual doesn't automatically make it Masonic.
Sometimes something even saying it is Masonic doesn't make it Masonic.

There are often debates about whether Irish Masons should really be able to be members of things like the LOL and the Hibernians, as their objectives are very sectarian and diametrically opposed to Freemasonry. However the debate always hits a brick wall because those organisations neither are, nor claim to be, Masonic.

Mike

Thank you for the reply. :)

[grandsecretary]

I've got to tell you that there are people in the South of Ireland who think Freemasons are 6 foot lizard men, that isn't true either! The misunderstanding that you talk of exists in the North and Scotland as well.

However, Just cos a few people think it, doesn't make it true and a simple reality check is helpful:

The first thing to remember is there is just the one Grand Lodge of Ireland, that means the Masons of both North and South are members of the one Grand Lodge. So you need to ask yourself how long would that last if it had anything to do with the LOL.

Something started by Masons isn't automatically Masonic itself!
Something copying a bit of Masonic ritual doesn't automatically make it Masonic.
Sometimes something even saying it is Masonic doesn't make it Masonic.

There are often debates about whether Irish Masons should really be able to be members of things like the LOL and the Hibernians, as their objectives are very sectarian and diametrically opposed to Freemasonry. However the debate always hits a brick wall because those organisations neither are, nor claim to be, Masonic.

Mike

The Orange Order is definitely Masonic. There are Masons in Ireland who are NOT members of The Grand Lodge of Ireland whose members are overwhelmingly Protestant both North and South of the border.

[mike martin]

The Orange Order is definitely Masonic. There are Masons in Ireland who are NOT members of The Grand Lodge of Ireland whose members are overwhelmingly Protestant both North and South of the border.
Sorry Peter but once again you know all too well the truth and the statement above is not it.

The LOL is what is nknown within Masonic circles as quasi-Masonic in that it imitates Masonic rituals.

Mike

[zero1]

The Orange Order is definitely Masonic. There are Masons in Ireland who are NOT members of The Grand Lodge of Ireland whose members are overwhelmingly Protestant both North and South of the border.

This is what is generally believed and known amongst those of us who research the history of the orders in the South.

[grandsecretary]

Sorry Peter but once again you know all too well the truth and the statement above is not it.

The LOL is what is nknown within Masonic circles as quasi-Masonic in that it imitates Masonic rituals.

Mike

Mike, I understand completely where you are coming from, but it is definitely Masonic, and most importantly the people of Northern Ireland considers it to be Masonic. That is the test, not what the UGLE thinks, and even so, the UGLE allows cross membership, big time!

I have dined many times with members of the Northern Irish Black Lodges at Great Queen Street. Not what I would call a pleasure.

[mike martin]

This is what is generally believed and known amongst those of us who research the history of the orders in the South.

Uh huh, so where exactly did you do your research that told you that the Orange is Masonic?

Mike

[zero1]

Uh huh, so where exactly did you do your research that told you that the Orange is Masonic?

Mike

None of your business.

The Protestant secret societies and private orders are all bedfellows with each other, Orangism and Masonry not least in any way.

[mike martin]

Mike, I understand completely where you are coming from, but it is definitely Masonic, and most importantly the people of Northern Ireland considers it to be Masonic. That is the test, not what the UGLE thinks, and even do, the UGLE allows cross membership, big time!.

Actually and very strongly I not only beg to differ but I insist that you are very mistaken or are purposely trying to misrepresent the situation. I don't understand why but hey ho.

If the LOL ITSELF does not think or claim itself to be Masonic then it doesn't matter what people may decide about it from the outside. It is not Masonic.

Your targeting is faulty, the UGLE has no interest in the Orange, as it is not an issue in England. What you actually meant was that the Grand Lodges of Scotland and Ireland allow dual membership and that (I am informed) is because the LOL is not masonic.

Mike

[mike martin]

None of your business.
In my experience that usually means either nowhere or imagination. Either way no point continuing the debate.

Mike

[zero1]

In my experience that usually means either nowhere or imagination.

Neither in point of fact; I'm just unwilling to cite sources and explain private research on an open public internet forum.

Either way no point continuing the debate.

Fair enough. Pity.

[zyphus]

Oh it isn't a big deal at all. No reason that he could not have attended as I said back in July thats my point but it doesn't actually make him a freemason because he did attend. Your friend says he attended. Thats fine by me. Simples.

When I said nothing had changed it wasn't meant in a derogatory fashion at all. I quite believe your friend in respect of Bliars attendance at a nice social event. I'm not questioning what you say.


Fair enough, I posted it in the 'did you know he was a mason thread' originally, but you rightly pointed out that a non Freemason can attend harmony. I wasn't to know this.