was jesus a jew?

[hadabusa]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

is this total bs or not?

im no big bible reader, others may judge better.

thx4input

[manxboz]

He certainly was a Jew, if he wasn't he wouldn't have been allowed to enter the Temple, as only Jews were allowed to do that.

[marpat]

Not only that but when he healed on person he told them to go and tell the temple priest what had happened and to make an offering according to the laws given by Moses. Why would a non-jew be interested in telling somebody else to honour jewish laws if he did not follow them himself?

[drakul]

He certainly was a Jew, if he wasn't he wouldn't have been allowed to enter the Temple, as only Jews were allowed to do that.

I believe when he went into the Temple at Passover with a whip - Jesus said approx - `The Lord built this temple for ALL PEOPLE but YOU have made it into a den of THIEVES'.

Which is an indication that the Temple was not just for Jews. In fact it may have been built before the Hebrews arrived in Palestine. As the Canaanites were already there when the Hebrews entered Jerusalem and in fact, the Jews dwelled with the Canaanites.

The Bible is FULL of hints that Jesus was not Jewish. I have had long interesting discussions about this elsewhere. There are certain things that just don't fit - where is the cultural religios background for Jesus God of Love? Definitely the Jewish Jehovah demanded multitudes of sacrificial victims. During the Jewish Passover the temple was a virtual slaughterhouse.

[drakul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZm35FhsmKs

is this total bs or not?

im no big bible reader, others may judge better.

thx4input

Thanx very much for posting this video hadabusa. It brings up some very logical points. I am going to bookmark it.

[yhwhschild]

Shalom all,

I haven't watch the vid but I can guess where its going. Catholicism has always under the direction of Satan wanted to distance itself from Judaism and the Torah as it was planning on bringing in the Babylonian doctrines and Constantine was a high priest of mithra which is just Babylon dieties with different names. This is the reason they changed his name from Yeshua/Yahushua to Jesus which was a mix of Latin and Greek.

I am not sure where people get the idea that the Bible shows that Yeshua was not a Jew. For a start he was born of Mariam and Yoseph and was of the royal bloodline of the house of David. He had to be as it was prophicied he would be. Secondly he was a Teacher of the Torah (Rabbi) this is the only way he could have been allowed to teach in the Temple. He was also from the Netzarim sect of Judaism which had the biggest schools around where he was born. He had also taken the vow, hence the long hair and beard. To do all these and to keep the Torah perfectly he had to be a Jew.

Also Yeshua is not a god either he became the son of YHWH after he had died but the angels are also and so are we after the final resurrection when we get the bodies we were meant to have before the fall of Adam. Yeshua always called himself the son of man which means son of Adam. He was meant to be the second Adam as he was there to repair the damage that was caused to mankind through the fall of the first Adam.

All in all he had to be a Jew.

[yhwhschild]

Shalom again,

Now I have just watched the vid and get what this is all about. The term Jew is an English term dervied from the word Yehudim which comes from the area they lived in Yudea/Judah. At one point in the History of Israel the kingdom split in two and they had two Kings one of the roles of the Messiah is to heal this split and unite the Kingdom. Yeshua was born in the area of Judea which is the Southern Kingdom and the rightful King of all Israel ruled from Jerusalem which would have been him if it was part of YHWH's plan to put him on the throne. Thats why when Yeshua rode into Jerusalem the people greated him as their King they knew who he was and so did the ruling Pharasees who wanted to get rid of him. The prophecy about Yeshua already foretold that they would eventually reject him but this was part of YHWH's plan anyway as the problem of the fall of Adam and the resulting sin had to be dealt with.

What I am absolutely amazed with is that Yeshua was a teacher of the Torah and knew it backwards so how long he knew he was gonna die before he did and still kepot going is mind boggling. He was only a man when all is said and done and to know what he was gonna face the rejection and knowing the method of his exicution and still carried on with his ministry is truely amazing.

So when all is said and done he was both a Jew and an Israelite.

Not all that call themselves Jews would actually be Jews as this would depend on which Tribe of Israel they were born into. It was Judah and Benjamin that were the Tribes who were Jews. There all Israelites though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew_(word)

[drakul]

Shalom all,

I haven't watch the vid but I can guess where its going. Catholicism has always under the direction of Satan wanted to distance itself from Judaism and the Torah as it was planning on bringing in the Babylonian doctrines and Constantine was a high priest of mithra which is just Babylon dieties with different names. This is the reason they changed his name from Yeshua/Yahushua to Jesus which was a mix of Latin and Greek.

I am not sure where people get the idea that the Bible shows that Yeshua was not a Jew. For a start he was born of Mariam and Yoseph and was of the royal bloodline of the house of David. He had to be as it was prophicied he would be. Secondly he was a Teacher of the Torah (Rabbi) this is the only way he could have been allowed to teach in the Temple. He was also from the Netzarim sect of Judaism which had the biggest schools around where he was born. He had also taken the vow, hence the long hair and beard. To do all these and to keep the Torah perfectly he had to be a Jew.

Also Yeshua is not a god either he became the son of YHWH after he had died but the angels are also and so are we after the final resurrection when we get the bodies we were meant to have before the fall of Adam. Yeshua always called himself the son of man which means son of Adam. He was meant to be the second Adam as he was there to repair the damage that was caused to mankind through the fall of the first Adam.

All in all he had to be a Jew.

Jesus was not descended from King David. Joseph was from the House of David. But Joseph was NOT Jesus father.

IF Jesus was such a perfectly prepared Rabbi trained to `keep the law' of the Torah etc etc, then HOW did he come up with a completely different god and way of worship. Jesus did not simply denounce the Rabbis and their laws - he called them `vipers who is of their father the Father of Lies' of the `Synagogue of Satan'. Synagogue of SATAN? Isn't Jesus referring to the Jewish GOD - Jehovah here? Considering that Jehovah demanded constant blood sacrifice, I agree with Jesus.

[coco]

Drakul,

Do you think he was a Caananite? ;)



You gave me a hug in that thread and I now return it. {{{hug}}}

*Drakul knows but doesn't remember me*

[marpat]

I believe when he went into the Temple at Passover with a whip - Jesus said approx - `The Lord built this temple for ALL PEOPLE but YOU have made it into a den of THIEVES'.

Which is an indication that the Temple was not just for Jews. In fact it may have been built before the Hebrews arrived in Palestine. As the Canaanites were already there when the Hebrews entered Jerusalem and in fact, the Jews dwelled with the Canaanites.

The Bible is FULL of hints that Jesus was not Jewish. I have had long interesting discussions about this elsewhere. There are certain things that just don't fit - where is the cultural religios background for Jesus God of Love? Definitely the Jewish Jehovah demanded multitudes of sacrificial victims. During the Jewish Passover the temple was a virtual slaughterhouse.

No coment for my posts? why did he tell a woman that he came for the redemption of Israel and why did he tell somebody he healed to go to the temple and offer accordring to the laws of moses? I will even dig up a bible if you want actual quotes.

Who created the modern bible? its contents were decided by men not be jesus so who is to say he did not worship yhvh? In the gnostic gospels he is said to come from the Aeon of barbelo and teaches that the god the jews worship is a false god called Yaldabaoth or Saklas, but this is a common theme of the gnostic gospel. I have finished reading the gopsel of judas and that theme exists there.

[herushura]

he was an Essenes Jew

Essenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[coco]

he was an Essenes Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

I have heard of that assertion.

[drakul]

=coco;1058302440]Drakul,

Do you think he was a Caananite? ;)

Yes. I think Jesus was either a Hellenized Canaanite or a Greek/Philistine. Jesus' understanding, his ideas and his deep felt beliefs, so radically different from the Hebrews, had to come from somewhere.

Simply being a `Rabbi' did not train Jesus for all that he was and practiced. Rabbinic training did not provide him the kindness, the compassion, the understanding, the LOVE that Jesus had. Think about it - Rabbis were expected to perform BLOOD SACRIFICES. That was a big part of their job. Where in the Bible do you EVER see Jesus perform a blood sacrifice??? In fact, at the Last Supper, Jesus does not even offer MEAT but strictly vegetarian - BREAD AND WINE.

Some historians try to explain this extreme variance betw Jesus and Jewish rabbincal teaching of the day by claiming - `Oh Jesus must have gone to India where he was influenced by Buddhism'. They are willing to accept that, as far-fetched as it is, rather than consider the fact that Jesus actually came from a completely different religious/cultural background.

You gave me a hug in that thread and I now return it. {{{hug}}}

*Drakul knows but doesn't remember me*


Hi My Friend Coco - (scratches head) Do I know you from another forum and or under another name?

[hadabusa]

Thanx very much for posting this video hadabusa. It brings up some very logical points. I am going to bookmark it.

my pleasure,buddy;)

note, this isnt a pisstake or meant to offend anybody.
i found the video rather interesting and would look forward at the points made being debatted.


thx2the contributors, rolleyes to the dismissive before debatting guys.

[king triad]

jesus was the king of the jews..thats why they wrote him out of their history...

[marpat]

Yes. I think Jesus was either a Hellenized Canaanite or a Greek/Philistine. Jesus' understanding, his ideas and his deep felt beliefs, so radically different from the Hebrews, had to come from somewhere.

Simply being a `Rabbi' did not train Jesus for all that he was and practiced. Rabbinic training did not provide him the kindness, the compassion, the understanding, the LOVE that Jesus had. Think about it - Rabbis were expected to perform BLOOD SACRIFICES. That was a big part of their job. Where in the Bible do you EVER see Jesus perform a blood sacrifice??? In fact, at the Last Supper, Jesus does not even offer MEAT but strictly vegetarian - BREAD AND WINE.

Some historians try to explain this extreme variance betw Jesus and Jewish rabbincal teaching of the day by claiming - `Oh Jesus must have gone to India where he was influenced by Buddhism'. They are willing to accept that, as far-fetched as it is, rather than consider the fact that Jesus actually came from a completely different religious/cultural background.



Hi My Friend Coco - (scratches head) Do I know you from another forum and or under another name?

Ill just copy my earlier post into here rather than typin again:

why did he tell a woman that he came for the redemption of Israel and why did he tell somebody he healed to go to the temple and offer accordring to the laws of moses? I will even dig up a bible if you want actual quotes.

Who created the modern bible? its contents were decided by men not be jesus so who is to say he did not worship yhvh? In the gnostic gospels he is said to come from the Aeon of barbelo and teaches that the god the jews worship is a false god called Yaldabaoth or Saklas, but this is a common theme of the gnostic gospel. I have finished reading the gopsel of judas and that theme exists there.

jesus is not a vegetarian is he. Who is to say no meat was eaten at the last supper just because the story is focussed on bread and wine? also he tells the disciples to eat the symbols of his body and blood. Also, doesnt god let down a blanket for Peter, saying kill and eat up? Peter refuses to and upsets god. In fact Peter seems to be very good at pissing god off and denying chrsit.

[drakul]

he was an Essenes Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

It's possible. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls are written in Classical Greek, so the Essenes were Hellenized. However the Essenes strictly observed many Jewish laws, especially observation of the Sabbath. Whereas Jesus did not. In fact Jesus preached against strict observance of the Sabbath, dietary laws, (what comes out of your mouth is more important than what goes into it), etc.

Jesus may have been heavily influenced by Egyptian/Greek Sufism. I know that Sufism is supposed to be Islamic, but it is not. Sufism was around the ME long before Islam appeared. Some Egyptian historians claim that the original Egyptian religion was Sufism.

[coco]

Hi My Friend Coco - (scratches head) Do I know you from another forum and or under another name?

Ck your PM. :)

[drakul]

Ill just copy my earlier post into here rather than typin again:

why did he tell a woman that he came for the redemption of Israel and why did he tell somebody he healed to go to the temple and offer accordring to the laws of moses? I will even dig up a bible if you want actual quotes.

Who created the modern bible? its contents were decided by men not be jesus so who is to say he did not worship yhvh? In the gnostic gospels he is said to come from the Aeon of barbelo and teaches that the god the jews worship is a false god called Yaldabaoth or Saklas, but this is a common theme of the gnostic gospel. I have finished reading the gopsel of judas and that theme exists there.

jesus is not a vegetarian is he. Who is to say no meat was eaten at the last supper just because the story is focussed on bread and wine? also he tells the disciples to eat the symbols of his body and blood. Also, doesnt god let down a blanket for Peter, saying kill and eat up? Peter refuses to and upsets god. In fact Peter seems to be very good at pissing god off and denying chrsit.

Sorry Marpat if I didn't respond to your post yet - it takes time, can't do this one off the cuff as I need to really think about your points and I am also working right now...will respond later this evening in depth.

[drakul]

Ck your PM. :)

Yes, My Friend Coco (`Miss B' on another forum).

So glad you are here. I enjoy reading your posts, especially on religion. :)

So what is your opinion Coco? Was Jesus a Jew? Why or Why Not?

[coco]

Yes, My Friend Coco (`Miss B' on another forum).

So glad you are here. I enjoy reading your posts, especially on religion. :)

So what is your opinion Coco? Was Jesus a Jew? Why or Why Not?

He was raised in a society where its prime religion for those people in that location in that time was Judaism. It's noted he visited Temple. It was clear however, that his spiritual philosophies were meant to include all people and not strictly Jewishcentric. He ticked the priests off.

My knowledge of the Essenes is limited to what I have read on another forum and the little that has been mentioned in doco's. They were a fiercely zealous people, strictly observing a belief system that excluded females and were prone to communal living arrangements. Jesus certainly associated with females and interacted with many of different beliefs. Like Essenes he promoted forgoing worldly possessions and money.

[hadabusa]

who 1star'd this?:rolleyes:

some village clown?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[yhwhschild]

Jesus was not descended from King David. Joseph was from the House of David. But Joseph was NOT Jesus father.

IF Jesus was such a perfectly prepared Rabbi trained to `keep the law' of the Torah etc etc, then HOW did he come up with a completely different god and way of worship. Jesus did not simply denounce the Rabbis and their laws - he called them `vipers who is of their father the Father of Lies' of the `Synagogue of Satan'. Synagogue of SATAN? Isn't Jesus referring to the Jewish GOD - Jehovah here? Considering that Jehovah demanded constant blood sacrifice, I agree with Jesus.

Shalom,

Not trying to put anyone down but to say there are quite alot of people who try and talk about the Scriptures without any knowledge other than the Catholic based propaganda is amazing. To say this is supposed to be a truth movement forum.

Yeshua was and is the promised Messiah. Every time the Jews (Israel) strayed from the Torah and starte practicing false doctrines YHWH would send a prophet to put them back on the right track. Yeshua was a prophet and a Messiah just like the other prophets but the difference is that he is the final promised Messiah.

When the Jews returned from Babylon they brought with them alot of the religious practices from that area. The also developed the Babylonian Talmud which is their Oral Torah. These practices over ruled the Torah of YHWH and brought in 1000's of extra laws that were not in the Torah but were just traditions that their Fathers had brought in during their captivity.

This is what Yeshua's ministry was all about it was to bring the children of Israel back to the real Torah and not the traditions that the Pharasees had brought in. Under the Torah you are not allowed to add any new laws or take any away. The ruling religous scribes and Pharasees did just that. This why Yeshua got so upset with them because they new that what they were doing was wrong and evil as they were taught the Torah from and early age and knew the Laws. So infact they were not taking after their father YHWH but had changed over to to Satan through their deeds and the bondage that they inflicted on the people they were supposed to care for.

So yes they were following Satan rather than YHWH it has nothing to do with the every day Jew who keeps and tries to live the Torah. It has to do with those who were in power who were blinded by greed and power and had manipulated the Torah to maintain that at the expense of all others.

Jehovah is not the name of YHWH either as it has a totally different meaning.

And the name Jesus doesn't have any meaning at all as it isn't even a real word just a mixture of Greek and Latin which changed the meaning of the prophecied name. Yep looks like Satan is still working overtime.

[yhwhschild]

he was an Essenes Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

Shalom,

I had heard this as well but I very much doubt it as the Essenes had some teachings that did not follow the Torah. They were also reputed to be involved with the septugent who probably changed some passages in the Tenakh to read that the Messiah was going to be G-d. The are lots of scriptures that point to Yeshua being part of the Nazirite sect and take extreme vows to show that they are on a mission for YHWH. They do this by cutting of their hair and beard in a ritual in the synagogue and then will not cut their hair or beard until their mission is complete. Paul also did this when he returned to Jerusalem to show that he was not teaching against circumcision. He also continued Yeshua's work in teaching against the Talmud and the other eronious teachings of that time but most interprit it as he was speaking against the Torah(he wasn't). He was a highly trained Pharasee that was teaching against the false teachings of Pharasees and using their jargon against them and those who had been blinded by this doctrine. Every thing that the Pharasees did was based on ritual and outward show. This was to make the people believe that they were pious but really they were full of deceit and evil.

Any way I went off on one there sorry:o

[drakul]

Shalom,

I had heard this as well but I very much doubt it as the Essenes had some teachings that did not follow the Torah.

I don't understand your statement here - the majority of what Jesus taught was against the Torah. That's what made Christianity a different religion.
If not give examples from the Torah. Isn't the OT based on the Torah?

They were also reputed to be involved with the septugent who probably changed some passages in the Tenakh to read that the Messiah was going to be G-d. The are lots of scriptures that point to Yeshua being part of the Nazirite sect and take extreme vows to show that they are on a mission for YHWH. They do this by cutting of their hair and beard in a ritual in the synagogue and then will not cut their hair or beard until their mission is complete.

Yes there is a thought that Jesus was a `Nazarene' not `from Nazareth' a town which some historians say did not even exist at that time. Were the Nazarenes strictly Jewish?

Paul also did this when he returned to Jerusalem to show that he was not teaching against circumcision. He also continued Yeshua's work in teaching against the Talmud and the other eronious teachings of that time

That brings up an interesting question - when were the Torah and Talmud written? According to scholars, the Judeans had no written law until after 70AD and the Talmud was not completed until several hundred years later, long after Christ's or St. Paul's time. My point being since Hebrew LAW was not written down there's no way of knowing what Paul preached against in this oral, unwritten `Talmud'.

Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia History of the Torah & Talmud -

Main article: Oral Torah
The first page of the Vilna Edition of the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Berachot, folio 2a.

Originally, Jewish scholarship was oral. Rabbis expounded and debated the law (the written law expressed in the Hebrew Bible) and discussed the Tanakh without the benefit of written works (other than the Biblical books themselves), though some may have made private notes (megillot setarim), for example of court decisions. This situation changed drastically, however, mainly as the result of the destruction of the Jewish commonwealth in the year 70 CE and the consequent upheaval of Jewish social and legal norms.

As the Rabbis were required to face a new reality—mainly Judaism without a Temple (to serve as the center of teaching and study) and Judea without autonomy—there was a flurry of legal discourse and the old system of oral scholarship could not be maintained. It is during this period that Rabbinic discourse began to be recorded in writing.[1][2] The earliest recorded oral law may have been of the midrashic form, in which halakhic discussion is structured as exegetical commentary on the Pentateuch. But an alternative form, organized by subject matter instead of by biblical verse, became dominant about the year 200 C.E., when Rabbi Judah haNasi redacted the Mishnah (משנה).

The Jerusalem Talmud, also known as the Palestinian Talmud, was one of the two compilations of Jewish religious teachings and commentary that was transmitted orally for centuries prior to its compilation by Jewish scholars in Palestine.[3] It is written largely in a western Aramaic dialect that differs from its Babylonian counterpart.

This Talmud is a synopsis of the analysis of the Mishnah that was developed over the course of nearly 200 years by the Academies in Israel (principally those of Tiberias and Caesaria.) Because of their location, the sages of these Academies devoted considerable attention to analysis of the agricultural laws of the Land of Israel. Traditionally, this Talmud was thought to have been redacted in about the year 350 C.E. by Rav Muna and Rav Yossi in the Land of Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------

but most interprit it as he was speaking against the Torah(he wasn't). He was a highly trained Pharasee that was teaching against the false teachings of Pharasees and using their jargon against them and those who had been blinded by this doctrine. Every thing that the Pharasees did was based on ritual and outward show. This was to make the people believe that they were pious but really they were full of deceit and evil.

Yes Paul was a Pharisee from the beginning, he participated in the stoning of Jesus' brother James and urged the persecution of Christians. But does that mean Jesus cut his hair and beard and took a vow in the Jewish `synagogue'? No it does not. The Bible says nothing about it.

Any way I went off on one there sorry:o

My friend you did not `go off'. This is what we are all here for! :) One reason I am very interested in the history of the Talmud is because it refers in a very negative coded, way to Jesus. For those who say that Jesus never existed, the Talmud could be used as proof that he did exist. However since the Talmud was written down later than the first Bibles, it does us no good as a historical record of Jesus. Unless written Talmud fragments could be found which predate the first Bibles.

[drakul]

Ill just copy my earlier post into here rather than typ in again:

why did he tell a woman that he came for the redemption of Israel and why did he tell somebody he healed to go to the temple and offer accordring to the laws of moses? I will even dig up a bible if you want actual quotes.


Here I look at the overall BODY, the overall MESSAGE of Jesus Christ's work. This is what an objective judge does. Yes the Anti-Christs (i am not saying you are one), such as Jordan Maxwell, Acharya, Tsarion, etc love to pick out a few sentences from the Bible such as - I came only for the lost sheep of Israel, or I came to bring a sword, etc., to prove that Jesus was Jewish or that Jesus was a warlord or that Jesus was not Jesus, or that Jesus never existed. HOWEVER, these same `alternative historians' scream `INTERPOLATION' if you cite quotes don't agree with their cause. Everything in the Bible or in the writings of ancient historians such as Flavius Josephus that they don't agree with is `clearly an INTERPOLATION'. :D

So could these statements you just paraphrased also be INTERPOLATIONS? Seeded into the NT to make it look like Jesus was Jewish? Remember the first bible was published by the Greek Christian Bishop Marcion in 160AD. Marcion's Bible was only the NT, there was no OT because Marcion considered the bloodthirsty Jewish God Jehovah to be a DIFFERENT GOD. In fact there was huge controversy about attaching the OT onto the NT which in fact made Jewish beliefs and history 3/4 of Christianity. The OT dwarfs the NT in size and teaches precious little about how to live. Mainly it is a litany of the history of the Hebrew people and rife with licentiousness, murder, incest, human and blood sacrifice, etc etc. Which had little to do with Jesus' teachings at all.

Who created the modern bible? its contents were decided by men not be jesus so who is to say he did not worship yhvh?

IMO -the majority of Jesus teachings show that he did not worship Jehovah.

In the gnostic gospels he is said to come from the Aeon of barbelo and teaches that the god the jews worship is a false god called Yaldabaoth or Saklas, but this is a common theme of the gnostic gospel. I have finished reading the gospel of judas and that theme exists there.


This is interesting. Care to elaborate?

jesus is not a vegetarian is he. Who is to say no meat was eaten at the last supper just because the story is focussed on bread and wine?

You're right - Jesus told the disciples - it's not what goes into your mouth but what comes out of it. Jesus encouraged his apostles not to observe Jewish dietary laws so that they could mingle with all kinds of people.

also he tells the disciples to eat the symbols of his body and blood.

This was Jesus' NEW COVENANT - No More Blood Sacrifice. Christian churches will not be used as slaughter houses like the Jewish temples. You will eat bread and wine in memory of me. And this Christians do to this day.

Also, doesnt god let down a blanket for Peter, saying kill and eat up? Peter refuses to and upsets god. In fact Peter seems to be very good at pissing god off and denying chrsit.

We are all fallible. If I was in a Muslim country and a Jihadi came up to me with a sword and said - `Are you a Christian?' Would I deny it? You bet I would. But St. Peter came through in the end.

[amethyst]

Im surprised...is any sort of scripture reference not considered?

Revelation 5:5 says:

"But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, thus making him an authentic "jew"

But remember, there are 11 other tribes also.

Being "jewish" in today's society is not what most people think it is. There are a lot of "fake" jews around...if one wants to consider lineage at all.

[amethyst]

The talmud was not considered in the orignal torah, the original cannon of scripture, the first five books of the Old Testament. as it was created by the sects that added to the cannon of the torah.

That's why it advocates some terrible things in it. The pharisees LOVED the talmud. They loved putting people into bondage and slavery and using so called sacred scripture to "back it up".

[coco]

Im surprised...is any sort of scripture reference not considered?

Revelation 5:5 says:



Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, thus making him an authentic "jew"

But remember, there are 11 other tribes also.

Being "jewish" in today's society is not what most people think it is. There are a lot of "fake" jews around...if one wants to consider lineage at all.

I consider with respect Drakul's opinion. Jesus was not born the flesh of Joseph and according to Jewish tradition, lineage is only considered from the father's side. Mary's detailed lineage is unknown to me - or it has slipped my mind.

Amethyst worded much better what I was trying to say earlier in that Jesus was born in a time and place and culture that was Jewish so I believe he was raised as Jewish.

But was he really, really Jewish? Perhaps by Mary's blood, of course as far as the man was concerned but Christ is not Jewish in my mind nor is He Christian as we are familiar with the idea that exists today. I believe Christ was and is a great spiritual master who knows only perfect equality despite mortal man's labels.

[amethyst]

[QUOTE]I consider with respect Drakul's opinion. Jesus was not born the flesh of Joseph and according to Jewish tradition, lineage is only considered from the father's side. Mary's detailed lineage is unknown to me - or it has slipped my mind.

Right I agree....Jesus 'heritage" as born of Mary was heavenly, as He was conceived by the the Holy Spirit of God in Mary's womb. She hadn't had sex with Joseph prior to her conception. It was a heavenly, spiritual "conception".

My point about Jesus being "lion of the tribe of Judah" was that he is considered the "root of David"

*the first chapter of the book of Matthew gives a good geneology description of Jesus the Christ.

[marpat]

IMO -the majority of Jesus teachings show that he did not worship Jehovah.


You're right - Jesus told the disciples - it's not what goes into your mouth but what comes out of it. Jesus encouraged his apostles not to observe Jewish dietary laws so that they could mingle with all kinds of people.


This was Jesus' NEW COVENANT - No More Blood Sacrifice. Christian churches will not be used as slaughter houses like the Jewish temples. You will eat bread and wine in memory of me. And this Christians do to this day.



We are all fallible. If I was in a Muslim country and a Jihadi came up to me with a sword and said - `Are you a Christian?' Would I deny it? You bet I would. But St. Peter came through in the end.

Well the new testament does not tell you who he worships. He simply states the father but that could be anything in truth. There are many references to jesus not worshipping yhvh but these are generally gnostic works like the ones I have been reading recently. In the gospel of Judas Jesus claims that the jews, and even his disciples, worship a false, blood thristy god. Judas is the only one to notice that Jesus came from the immortal aeon of barbelo and not from the Jewish god.

Why would you deny christ when you could be marytr?

[yhwhschild]

I don't understand your statement here - the majority of what Jesus taught was against the Torah. That's what made Christianity a different religion.
If not give examples from the Torah. Isn't the OT based on the Torah?



Yes there is a thought that Jesus was a `Nazarene' not `from Nazareth' a town which some historians say did not even exist at that time. Were the Nazarenes strictly Jewish?



That brings up an interesting question - when were the Torah and Talmud written? According to scholars, the Judeans had no written law until after 70AD and the Talmud was not completed until several hundred years later, long after Christ's or St. Paul's time. My point being since Hebrew LAW was not written down there's no way of knowing what Paul preached against in this oral, unwritten `Talmud'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud History of the Torah & Talmud -

Main article: Oral Torah
The first page of the Vilna Edition of the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Berachot, folio 2a.

Originally, Jewish scholarship was oral. Rabbis expounded and debated the law (the written law expressed in the Hebrew Bible) and discussed the Tanakh without the benefit of written works (other than the Biblical books themselves), though some may have made private notes (megillot setarim), for example of court decisions. This situation changed drastically, however, mainly as the result of the destruction of the Jewish commonwealth in the year 70 CE and the consequent upheaval of Jewish social and legal norms.

As the Rabbis were required to face a new reality—mainly Judaism without a Temple (to serve as the center of teaching and study) and Judea without autonomy—there was a flurry of legal discourse and the old system of oral scholarship could not be maintained. It is during this period that Rabbinic discourse began to be recorded in writing.[1][2] The earliest recorded oral law may have been of the midrashic form, in which halakhic discussion is structured as exegetical commentary on the Pentateuch. But an alternative form, organized by subject matter instead of by biblical verse, became dominant about the year 200 C.E., when Rabbi Judah haNasi redacted the Mishnah (משנה).

The Jerusalem Talmud, also known as the Palestinian Talmud, was one of the two compilations of Jewish religious teachings and commentary that was transmitted orally for centuries prior to its compilation by Jewish scholars in Palestine.[3] It is written largely in a western Aramaic dialect that differs from its Babylonian counterpart.

This Talmud is a synopsis of the analysis of the Mishnah that was developed over the course of nearly 200 years by the Academies in Israel (principally those of Tiberias and Caesaria.) Because of their location, the sages of these Academies devoted considerable attention to analysis of the agricultural laws of the Land of Israel. Traditionally, this Talmud was thought to have been redacted in about the year 350 C.E. by Rav Muna and Rav Yossi in the Land of Israel.
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Yes Paul was a Pharisee from the beginning, he participated in the stoning of Jesus' brother James and urged the persecution of Christians. But does that mean Jesus cut his hair and beard and took a vow in the Jewish `synagogue'? No it does not. The Bible says nothing about it.



My friend you did not `go off'. This is what we are all here for! :) One reason I am very interested in the history of the Talmud is because it refers in a very negative coded, way to Jesus. For those who say that Jesus never existed, the Talmud could be used as proof that he did exist. However since the Talmud was written down later than the first Bibles, it does us no good as a historical record of Jesus. Unless written Talmud fragments could be found which predate the first Bibles.

Shalom,

There is quite alot to answer here so forgive me if I miss something or misinterprit what you have writen. (It might be along on as well - sorry)

Yes it did make Christianity a diferent religion as now it is the whore of Babylon. This was not because of Yeshua's teachings or the Apostles this was because of the false Catholic doctrines that came later. Christianity as some of the early renewed church called themselves was still a small Jewish sect that rejected the mainstream Pharasee teachings of the Talmud (oral tradition) and returned to the Torah given by YHWH and its teaching of selfless infinite Love. This is why Yeshua said that you can sum up all the Torah with two commandments.
Love YHWH with all your heart (do what He asks of you even when your not sure of the logic behind what he is asking because He knows what He is doing) and your neighbour as yourself (treat your neighbours aspecially the ones you don't like as you want to be treated yourself). This is because all the 613 laws that are contained in the Torah show you how to do this.

Yeshua was and is the Torah made flesh. When Yohananan (John) wrote about the Word becoming flesh he was refering to the Torah. This what was spoken to Moshe at Mt Sinai by YHWH and was written down by him during the 40 years of wondering in the wilderness. The Torah is the first five books of the Tenakh (OT) and these contain the teachings of YHWH and the laws that show you how to follow His teachings. Yeshua could not teach against the Torah as he lived and breathed the Torah and was the very embodyment of the Torah. When Moshe sat on Mt Horeb giving his final speach to the children of Israel before they went into the promised land. He gave them a warning after he went through all the Torah laws again that they were to gaurd these laws for all generations as this was an everlasting covernant between man and YHWH and that any prohet or teacher that taught anything different or tried to take away or add to what had said and that they practice they would be a false one (see Dueteronomy). This is why on many occasion Yeshua always refered to the origional Torah teachings and spoke against the "oral traditions" of the Pharasees as these laws were an adition and were not part of the Torah of YHWH. As I have writen in other posts Judaism had become a sesspool of false teachings and rituals that were designed to keep the masses in servitude and bondage while the ruling elite religious Pharasees went around basking in their false righteousness and using it for their own status, power and greed.
Can you see why Yeshua was so angry with the and why every time they turned up he was quick to them up for who they were really are. They were following Satan's plans whether willingly or not and they had totally destroyed the meaning of the Torah by their added rules and rituals.

The article on the Talmud is correct but only covers the false oral traditions. Although all the teachings of YHWH were handed down from father to son and mother to daughter. There was always a Torah scroll that was read every year to all and was kept in the Tabernacle along with the Ark of the Covernant (but not inside). Then it was moved into the Temple and then into the Synagogues as writing material became more widely available. Eventhe scrolls that contain the works and prophecies have been dated back to long before the birth of Yeshua. The book of Daniel is said to be writen around 500 BC. It is very difficult to believe what is writen in wiki as from what I have read most of their info comes from Catholic/Anglican sources who have been distancing the Teachings of Yeshua from its Jewish origins since the fall of Israel and its temple in 70 AD. They don't want you to belive that Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi and not only kept but promoted the Torah. Because if you did you would then realise what a lie modern Christianity has become and how much false doctrines and rituals are in it. Anyone who does some serious research can see that Catholicism is Yeshua's prophecied whore of Babylon and the Protestant churches are it's harlot daughters. Judaism falls in this catergory as well as the majority hold the Oral Torah (traditions) higher than the Torah of YHWH and the authority of the Rabbi's over the authority of YHWH.

Paul was a Pharasee right up to the end not because he supported their false teachings but because he knew how to debunk them. He did this in most of his letters and you can see the very learned jargon he used.
It is very difficult to show you just how pro Torah he was without writing at least a chapter on it but when he spoke against the Law he was refering to the man made oral traditions invented by the Pharasees not the Torah of YHWH. If this were not so then the Bereans would have seen through his lies as he commended them on checking up on what he said to see if it was true in the Scriptures. Note that Paul is telling them to use the Scriptures as the basis of truth. The scriptures were the Tenakh which is the collection of books containing the Torah (first five books), the Writings (the Psalms, Songs, and history) and the Prophets (the prophetical writings). This is proof that the Temple at least had copies of all these scrolls for any one to go and look at.

See www.eliyah.com - as there is some very indepth research and studies there on the writings of Paul and the teachings of Yeshua.
also see http://www.torahofmessiah.com/ as this has some very good studies as well.

BTW Paul had Stephen stoned not James as Paul went to see James in Jerusalem on many occasions after his conversion.

The reason peole believe that Yeshua had taken the Nazirite vow is because of the things he did while going about doing his ministry.

The nazerene sect was a sect that was part of Judaism and rejected the false teachings of mainsteam Judaism. The early church was part of this sect and it had nothing to do with Nazereth but there were lots of schools in the area or Galilee and was the most likely place where Yeshua was schooled as that area was very pro Torah and anti oral tradition.

Also at the time of Yeshua there were about 24 different sects in Judaism and all had there own theories it was just the Pharasees and scribes were the worst.

Hope I didn't go on to long