The Lost Symbol

[montag]

Intrigue, but no skeletons at masonic hall

IN THE new Dan Brown novel The Lost Symbol, freemasons drink wine from human skulls. Apron-wearing politicians warn initiates at sword-point not to spill secrets or they'll have their tongues cut out.

The lead character, symbologist Robert Langdon, from Brown's earlier novel, The Da Vinci Code, scours Washington DC in search of a pyramid with a code word, inscribed by masons, that can help deify men.

There's a lot of bunkum in the book, according to Barry Reaper, the grand secretary of Freemasons Victoria, although real-life freemasons do have symbols, secret rituals and politician members, and they do wear aprons.

But overall, ''we think it portrays Freemasonry in a pretty fair and very respectful light'', Mr Reaper said.

The retired banker, a mason for 47 years, said the book could generate interest and spark young people to join. Since its September 15 release, the average number of hits on Freemasons Victoria's website has doubled.

There are 340 masonic lodges in Victoria and 14,000 members who practise brotherly love, truth and charity. Freemasons raised $1.1 million for the bushfire appeal and run homes for the aged.

But there are no blood rituals such as drinking wine from a skull. There are no ''chambers of reflection'' with skeleton, scythe and hourglass as reminders of mortality. No holy word and no pyramid.

It doesn't upset Mr Reaper. ''There are some fantasy elements in the book which are there to make it exciting as a work of fiction,'' he says. ''On the whole, we thought it was good escapist fun.''

Compared to Washington's granite and marble House of the Temple described in The Lost Symbol with chandelier fire bowls and Teutonic crosses, Melbourne's masonic centre at Dallas Brooks Hall, built in 1969, resembles a no-frills church.

But it is symbol-rich. A metal ''all seeing eye'' reminds masons their actions are noticed by a deity or their conscience. The chequered black and white carpet symbolises the contrast between good and evil.

At meetings, members wear dinner suits, and aprons that honour the Freemasons' origins as medieval stonemasons.

During initiations, inductees wear blindfolds to symbolise moving from darkness to light and swear to uphold Freemasonry's mysteries.

Then there are degree rituals - a kind of upgrade test - in which masons learn moral lessons through tool metaphors. A mason's square, for example, teaches one to look after your family, obey the law and support friends and community.

Current judges and state and Federal MPs are freemasons. Prime ministers Billy McMahon and Robert Menzies were masons, as was cricketer Don Bradman and war hero Edward ''Weary'' Dunlop.

Mr Reaper says men ''from all stations in life'' are masons, including plumbers, carpenters and farmers. They wear white gloves to symbolise equality, so a labourer's hands won't stand out against, say, a lawyer's.

''We believe in support of each other, no matter what our profession is,'' Mr Reaper says.

[montag]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/intrigue-but-no-skeletons-at-masonic-hall-20090927-g7q2.html

[grandsecretary]

[B]But there are no blood rituals such as drinking wine from a skull. There are no ''chambers of reflection'' with skeleton, scythe and hourglass as reminders of mortality. No holy word and no pyramid.

Wrong. Completely wrong.

[stewart edwards]

Even I, as a mere profane man, have helped to set up a chamber of reflection for a masonic lodge. OK I only grabbed a couple of everyday items to put in there, but nontheless I can confirm that some lodges do use them. Quite common in mainland Europe I understand, if not in ugle amity. I would guess that you will find them more commonly in lodges that take a more esoteric approach than the social club approach. A vital element in my mind, without which much is lost, from an esoteric perspective. Each to their own though.

And if you want to see a pyramid, somewhere on the net one of the (I think) Australian GLs a few years back published a video of the GM taking office. Just watch the hands of everyone present. It was discussed on masonic forums so perhaps one of the masons here remembers where.

[keystone]

Wrong. Completely wrong.A sweeping statement which gives the wrong impression and should be qualified. Would you allow me?

The Australian Mason quoted in this article is undoubtedly correct when he says there is no Chamber Of Reflection used in his jurisdiction and that would be on whose behalf he is talking. He would also be correct in saying I guess that drinking blood out of a skull is also not part of Craft Freemasonry. Perhaps GS could enlighten us? It may be included in an appendent order but as the guy would have been speaking on behalf of Craft Freemasonry in his State he is correct.

Now it is quite correct to say that the Chamber Of Reflection is used in Craft Freemasonry elsewhere in the world on the Continent of Europe for example. RGLE use it as well - as is clearly stated on their website.

So what he said isn't wrong but it isn't completely right either. It would have been if he had qualified his remarks to say they applied in his jurisdiction though n'est pas?

Cheers

[keystone]

Even I, as a mere profane man, have helped to set up a chamber of reflection for a masonic lodge. OK I only grabbed a couple of everyday items to put in there, but nontheless I can confirm that some lodges do use them. Quite common in mainland Europe I understand, if not in ugle amity. I would guess that you will find them more commonly in lodges that take a more esoteric approach than the social club approach. A vital element in my mind, without which much is lost, from an esoteric perspective. Each to their own though.

And if you want to see a pyramid, somewhere on the net one of the (I think) Australian GLs a few years back published a video of the GM taking office. Just watch the hands of everyone present. It was discussed on masonic forums so perhaps one of the masons here remembers where.Sorry Stewart I typed my response to GS before reading your post. Looks like I endorsed what you said. :D

I don't remember the Aussie GM vid at all. Can you give a pointer Stewart?

Cheers

[1977]

Wrong. Completely wrong.
Exactly. And such things, such as the 33º SR ritual portrayed in the book, have been an open secret since the 19th century. So why resort to these distortions and misleading statements?

[keystone]

Exactly. And such things, such as the 33º SR ritual portrayed in the book, have been an open secret since the 19th century. So why resort to these distortions and misleading statements?But what he said was correct in the context of the boundaries of the box in which he resides. His failure is not to realise that he should have defined those boundaries.

Cheers

[montag]

There's a lot of bunkum in the book, according to Barry Reaper, the grand secretary of Freemasons Victoria,
I think in the context of this statement he is completely wrong, what he seems to be alluding to that these other rituals are bunkum. Even though his branch of Freemasonry do not partake in them he must know that it goes on..

[montag]

What is also interesting is that books and movies like this are making this sought of information mainstream now, after thousands of years of secrecy and mystery all of a sudden they are allowing all of this info to be released, I wonder what they are getting us ready for..?

[keystone]

I think in the context of this statement he is completely wrong, what he seems to be alluding to that these other rituals are bunkum.Theres a classic example of disinfo if I may say so which will be jumped on by someone and promulgated as fact. He did not say that these other rituals are bunkum. He said there is a lot in the book which is bunkum. Thats absoluely NOT the same thing.

Even though his branch of Freemasonry do not partake in them he must know that it goes on.Yes of course he must.


What is also interesting is that books and movies like this are making this sought of information mainstream now, after thousands of years of secrecy and mystery all of a sudden they are allowing all of this info to be released, I wonder what they are getting us ready for..?This stuff was exposed years and years ago. Nothing new here and in any event its a novel. Why would "they be getting us ready for something" now? You are looking at this through a cloudy lens IMHO. There is nothing hidden about Freemasonry - you just have to know where to look.

Cheers

[stewart edwards]

I don't remember the Aussie GM vid at all. Can you give a pointer Stewart?
Uuurg it was years ago, but I will try.

I remember that all of the masons were giving pointy hand signs as if they were making pyramids above their heads, several in quick succession I think. But it was along time ago. I remember chuckling at the time thinking that they were saluting the new GM whilst confirming various esoteric aspects of pyramids;)

Back then it would have to have been on tfm, mfol or possibly one of Bills. Sadly I didnt reallygive it a lot of thought, though it was an interesting watch. I think that it was Australia but I guess it could have been the US as some frats there do make WM installations public. Wish my memory was better.

[keystone]

I remember that all of the masons were giving pointy hand signs as if they were making pyramids above their heads, several in quick succession I think. But it was along time ago. I remember chuckling at the time thinking that they were saluting the new GM whilst confirming various esoteric aspects of pyramids;)OK I recognise it from your description. The Grand Or Royal sign given as a salutation. I wouldn't suggest that it was confirming esoteric aspects of anything. Someone will though I have no doubt. ;)

Cheers

[stevepenny]

He would also be correct in saying I guess that drinking blood out of a skull is also not part of Craft Freemasonry. Perhaps GS could enlighten us? It may be included in an appendent order but as the guy would have been speaking on behalf of Craft Freemasonry in his State he is correct.

Hi Keystone,

I agree that drinking blood from a skull does not feature in craft Freemasonry but is a feature of the ritual in a higher (side) order.

The skeleton, scythe and hourglass all feature in the Master Mason degree, and the holy word is present in the RA (and others). The pyramid features throughout Freemasonry but is more allusory.

[keystone]

I agree that drinking blood from a skull does not feature in craft Freemasonry but is a feature of the ritual in a higher (side) order.Thats what I thought. Oh the inevitable discussion concerning "side" and "higher" rears its head! :D

The skeleton, scythe and hourglass all feature in the Master Mason degree, and the holy word is present in the RA (and others). The pyramid features throughout Freemasonry but is more allusory.Indeed. I was referring earlier primarily to use of the Chamber Of Reflection. Sorry if I was unclear.

Cheers

[stewart edwards]

OK I recognise it from your description. The Grand Or Royal sign given as a salutation. I wouldn't suggest that it was confirming esoteric aspects of anything. Someone will though I have no doubt. ;)

CheersOut of interest Keystone, if you are able to say, why do you think that the Royal Sign is used as a salutation to a Grand Master? Was it made up one day in a pub as a bit of fun? (just to bring a smile to Peters face:D).

[boots]

I think in the context of this statement he is completely wrong, what he seems to be alluding to that these other rituals are bunkum. Even though his branch of Freemasonry do not partake in them he must know that it goes on..


During initiations, inductees wear blindfolds to symbolise moving from darkness to light and swear to uphold Freemasonry's mysteries.


He also failed to mention the noose around the neck and a dagger to the throat.

So this GS is not forth coming with the truth. Imagine if he had said those things. Shit no, you can't say those things in public.

.

[boots]

Theres a classic example of disinfo if I may say so which will be jumped on by someone and promulgated as fact. He did not say that these other rituals are bunkum. He said there is a lot in the book which is bunkum. Thats absoluely NOT the same thing.

He did make that statement, BUT if you read the whole article he put's a nice spin on it, yeah you know just a blindfold nothing more than that.

Yes of course he must.


Funny how he didn't say which branch of masonry practise those rituals.


This stuff was exposed years and years ago. Nothing new here and in any event its a novel. Why would "they be getting us ready for something" now? You are looking at this through a cloudy lens IMHO. There is nothing hidden about Freemasonry - you just have to know where to look.

Cheers

Exposed by who and when??? When was it put out on the MSM keystone?? Before Dan Brown.


.

[grandsecretary]

Exactly. And such things, such as the 33º SR ritual portrayed in the book, have been an open secret since the 19th century. So why resort to these distortions and misleading statements?

You are quite right. There are blood rituals throughout Freemasonry although not using the actual blood any more, particularly the Knights Templar and the A&ASR, but the Craft or Blue Lodges too.

Chambers of reflection are commonplace, except in the UGLE in England, as are Holy words and pyramids.

The problem we have here is that there are those who tend to speak with authority when they have only been a member of a particular type of lodge, or degree, or jurisdiction.

[stevepenny]

He also failed to mention the noose around the neck and a dagger to the throat.

So this GS is not forth coming with the truth. Imagine if he had said those things. Shit no, you can't say those things in public.

.

Perhaps he fails to mention them because they have no significance! It is not a 'noose' and the real 'item' is important for a number of reasons. And the reference to the 'dagger' is completely misplaced.

I assume you are not speaking from a position of authority!!

[stevepenny]

:You are quite right. There are blood rituals throughout Freemasonry although not using the actual blood any more, particularly the Knights Templar and the A&ASR, but the Craft or Blue Lodges too.

Peter,

One slight correction :), the Blood Rituals no longer feature north of the border, and not always down south. They appear predominantly in 'Emulation' and 'Taylors', sometimes in 'Oxford' but not in 'Bristol'.

We tend to use McBrides and another (can't remember the name as I type this) which make only a passing reference to them, prefering to focus on 'integrity' to re-inforce the message.

[keystone]

Exposed by who and when??? When was it put out on the MSM keystone?? Before Dan Brown.Well lets just pick three for the moment:

Masonry Dissected - Samuel Pritchard - 1730

Illustrations Of Masonry - William Morgan - 1852

Darkness Visible - Walton Hannah - 1952

None of these were novels like Lost Secret. There are oodles more over the last 300 years. You could also argue that Mackey and Gould were exposees as indeed every single ritual book that has been published.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

:

Peter,

One slight correction :), the Blood Rituals no longer feature north of the border, and not always down south. They appear predominantly in 'Emulation' and 'Taylors', sometimes in 'Oxford' but not in 'Bristol'.

We tend to use McBrides and another (can't remember the name as I type this) which make only a passing reference to them, prefering to focus on 'integrity' to re-inforce the message.

I am very sorry Steve. I fell into the trap that I described. Talking with authority when I only have my own limited knowledge and experience to call upon.

Do you use "cutting the throat, the tongue torn from its root" a blood ritual; [I]"the heart torn therefrom"[/I;] or "the body severed in twain"?

[nihil]

KingdomAwaits Channel - Masonic rituals recorded and exposed by a Brother in Turkey .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyuhhH2g5lY


The first series of footage is a Masonic initiation of three Freemason recruits (Apprentices).


The second is a ritual of 33rd degree Freemason's slitting a sacrificial goat on a pentagram in the Lodge's temple room. Note, you can continue to observe the Masonic swords. The grand master drinks the goat's blood which is sacrificed in the middle of the room and prays in Hebrew language and ends the satanic worship ritual.


TRANSLATION

Please introduce the cadidates to us.

Serdar Büyüküstün, his profession is electrical engineering.

Aykut Erensoy, his profession is electrical Engineering.
Kenan Ali Akman, he is a businessman.

Understood. Please bring them inside.

Dear Misters, before all else we would like you to promise to us that,

whether you are accepted as a brother or not, after you are taken into what we call 'the room of contemplation', you will not mention anybody what you see and what you hear here, do you promise on your honour?

Mr. Erensoy?

Yes, I promise.

Mr. Büyüküstün?

I promise.

Mr. Akman?

Yes, I promise.

The inquisotor brother, let the candidates sit.

Mr. Büyüküstün, tell us what is the thing which was touched to your chest and which was made you feel with one of your hands?

Uhm... something metal... sword.

The meaning of the sword being touched to your chest is that you keep your promise otherwise you will be made to regret not keeping it and suffer pains for the rest of your life.

Let us avoid any mistakes, are you really the same people who wants to join us? Did you fill in the form without pressure from others and with your own free will and judgement? And you signed it?

Yes.

Let the cadidates commence 'the first journey'.

Who are these people? Those who seek the real light.

Misters, repeat the oath we made just now once again after me.

Before the symbol of the great architect of the universe and in front of the mason brotherhood, what I said was correct and I swear by it with all my sincerity.

I will not disclose any of our masonic secrets and what I have been shown and told here to anybody other than other brothers in a masonic lodge.

I will work towards the end of masonic goals.

I will obey the principles of the free masons' greater lodge.

I will regularly attend the meetings of the lodge which I will became a member of.

The first officer, brother, what do you want for the candidates?

The light of the scientific truth, dear master.

All other brothers who stand by the columns and decorate the true light. What do you want for the candidates?

The light of the scientific truth, dear master.

Let the scientific truth be given on the 3rd touch of the hammer.

The swords which are pointed at you symbolises the fact that, other masons will defend you should you ever be attacked by others in the rest of your life.


Tags: Freemasonry Masonic Freemason Ritual Scottish Rite Occult 33rd Cult Cults Secret Societies Society Freemasons Baalism

[boots]

Perhaps he fails to mention them because they have no significance! It is not a 'noose' and the real 'item' is important for a number of reasons. And the reference to the 'dagger' is completely misplaced.

I assume you are not speaking from a position of authority!!


Mmmm how can I put this nicely. I cant. Your a lair.


The Tyler prepares the Candidate in a room outside the Lodge room where he is to be initiated by divesting him of all metal articles. The Candidate removes his outer clothing until he stands ' in socks, his left shoe, trousers and shirt only. His shirt is unbuttoned to reveal his left breast, his right sleeve is rolled up to reveal the elbow, his left trouser leg is rolled up above the knee and a slipper is placed on his unshod foot. A hangman's noose is then placed around his neck, the end of the rope hanging down behind him. He is blindfolded.
He is then led by the Tyler to the door of the Lodge and the Tyler knocks.
The Inner Guard, moving with the prescribed step and making the First Degree sign, says, 'Brother junior Warden, there is a report.' After several ritual responses, the Inner Guard opens the door and asks the Tyler, 'Whom have you there?'
'Mr John Smith, a poor Candidate in a state of darkness,' says the Tyler, 'who has been well and worthily recommended, regularly proposed and approved in open Lodge, and now comes of his own free will and accord, properly prepared, humbly soliciting to be admitted to the mysteries and privileges of Freemasonry.'
There follow several repetitions exchanges, the Inner Guard places the point of a dagger to the Candidate's left breast. He is asked, 'Do you feel anything?
'Yes.'
The Inner Guard raises the dagger in the air, and the still blindfolded Candidate is led by the right hand by the junior Deacon to the kneeling-stool before the Worshipful Master, who then addresses the Candidate for the first time.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14414


The hangman's noose is actually called a "cable-tow" which is defined as a "rope; cable; cord; ritualistically, symbol or method of control of and initiate" (which may have been how a person was led during the Inquisition). Several Masons have written to me that most of the information Knight and Lomas present about Freemasonry is either outdated or incorrect
The candidate was questioned with a dagger blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. (Although the dagger is apparently not used in many [if not all] American lodges, I have been reliably informed that it is still used in United Grand Lodge of England [UGLE] rituals.)
.

[boots]

Well lets just pick three for the moment:

Masonry Dissected - Samuel Pritchard - 1730

Illustrations Of Masonry - William Morgan - 1852

Darkness Visible - Walton Hannah - 1952

None of these were novels like Lost Secret. There are oodles more over the last 300 years. You could also argue that Mackey and Gould were exposees as indeed every single ritual book that has been published.

Cheers

Yes very good keystone.:)

When I say MSM, I mean the modern media which is own by 5 corporation. It's a monopoly which is controlled. So apart from Danny boy, when has there been any "exposing" of freemasonry in the last 50 years??

.

[grandsecretary]

Mmmm how can I put this nicely. I cant. Your a lair.


The Tyler prepares the Candidate in a room outside the Lodge room where he is to be initiated by divesting him of all metal articles. The Candidate removes his outer clothing until he stands ' in socks, his left shoe, trousers and shirt only. His shirt is unbuttoned to reveal his left breast, his right sleeve is rolled up to reveal the elbow, his left trouser leg is rolled up above the knee and a slipper is placed on his unshod foot. A hangman's noose is then placed around his neck, the end of the rope hanging down behind him. He is blindfolded.
He is then led by the Tyler to the door of the Lodge and the Tyler knocks.
The Inner Guard, moving with the prescribed step and making the First Degree sign, says, 'Brother junior Warden, there is a report.' After several ritual responses, the Inner Guard opens the door and asks the Tyler, 'Whom have you there?'
'Mr John Smith, a poor Candidate in a state of darkness,' says the Tyler, 'who has been well and worthily recommended, regularly proposed and approved in open Lodge, and now comes of his own free will and accord, properly prepared, humbly soliciting to be admitted to the mysteries and privileges of Freemasonry.'
There follow several repetitions exchanges, the Inner Guard places the point of a dagger to the Candidate's left breast. He is asked, 'Do you feel anything?
'Yes.'
The Inner Guard raises the dagger in the air, and the still blindfolded Candidate is led by the right hand by the junior Deacon to the kneeling-stool before the Worshipful Master, who then addresses the Candidate for the first time.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14414


The hangman's noose is actually called a "cable-tow" which is defined as a "rope; cable; cord; ritualistically, symbol or method of control of and initiate" (which may have been how a person was led during the Inquisition). Several Masons have written to me that most of the information Knight and Lomas present about Freemasonry is either outdated or incorrect
The candidate was questioned with a dagger blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. (Although the dagger is apparently not used in many [if not all] American lodges, I have been reliably informed that it is still used in United Grand Lodge of England [UGLE] rituals.)
.

Just to be absolutely clear, the Poignard (dagger) and the Cable Tow (noose) are both still used in the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry.

They signify the following:

Poignard: ... that if an initiate attempted to rush forward into a lodge without being fully qualified by initiation he would be an accessory to his own death by stabbing as the brother who held it would have stood firm and done his duty.

Cable Tow: ... that if an initiate attempted to retreat from the lodge he would be an accessory to his own death by strangulation.

These violent acts are not carried out, of course, because they are against the law, but they are meant to instill a measure of fear into the mind of the initiate.

[boots]

Just to be absolutely clear, the Poignard (dagger) and the Cable Tow (noose) are both still used in the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry.

They signify the following:

Poignard: ... that if an initiate attempted to rush forward into a lodge without being fully qualified by initiation he would be an accessory to his own death by stabbing as the brother who held it would have stood firm and done his duty.

Cable Tow: ... that if an initiate attempted to retreat from the lodge he would be an accessory to his own death by strangulation.

These violent acts are not carried out, of course, because they are against the law, but they are meant to instill a measure of fear into the mind of the initiate.

Thanks for the clarification.


Yes this is true. I see that as a form of mind control, It's a threat and does not give people free will.


.

[stevepenny]

I am very sorry Steve. I fell into the trap that I described. Talking with authority when I only have my own limited knowledge and experience to call upon.

Do you use "cutting the throat, the tongue torn from its root" a blood ritual; [I]"the heart torn therefrom"[/I;] or "the body severed in twain"?

Hi Peter,

No we don't. The threat is now to be branded a "willfully purjured individual, devoid of all moral worth". At the end of the piece of ritual in question the candidate is informed that the 'antient penalties were...' etc etc. KNowing this is important as there is an important connection between the ancient penalties and other elements of the ritual.

I recently carried out a 'straw-poll' on a pro-Masonry forum that revealed that around 60 to 65% of English lodges still refer to the encient penalties.

[stevepenny]

Mmmm how can I put this nicely. I cant. Your a lair.

Hmmmm, let me put this another way...no i'm not.

The hangman's noose is actually called a "cable-tow" which is defined as a "rope; cable; cord; ritualistically, symbol or method of control of and initiate" (which may have been how a person was led during the Inquisition). Several Masons have written to me that most of the information Knight and Lomas present about Freemasonry is either outdated or incorrect
[/B]The candidate was questioned with a dagger blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. (Although the dagger is apparently not used in many [if not all] American lodges, I have been reliably informed that it is still used in United Grand Lodge of England [UGLE] rituals

Correct, the noose is called a 'Cable Tow'; so clearly I was not lying. The name of the item is very important later on in the ritual; if you called it a noose then it would not work as effectively.

The dagger is used in all UGLE Ritual that I have observed, and not at all in GLoS Ritual. The weapon of choice in Scotland is a sword.

The sword is not held to the candidates throat but is used as a reminder that the obligations are real and that the secrets of the craft may not be revealed.

Please do not fall into the trap that every lodge, every Grand Lodge, and every jurisdiction, follows the same ritual.

Your apology is accepted:)

[stewart edwards]

Thanks for the clarification.


Yes this is true. I see that as a form of mind control, It's a threat and does not give people free will.


.Based on Peters explanation I agree with Boots. The explanation of the poignard makes good esoteric sense (not travelling too quickly, taking things in your stride, going at a speed that you are comfortable with, not learning too much too soon etc), but the explanation of the cable tow does remove the ability of a candidate being able to leave of his own free will and accord. I am open to other explanations as being reasonable but Cable Tow: ... that if an initiate attempted to retreat from the lodge he would be an accessory to his own death by strangulationcould easily be grasped by darkness as an effective method of lodge penetration, which could lead to a lodge becoming a lodge of darkness not light.

[stevepenny]

Based on Peters explanation I agree with Boots. The explanation of the poignard makes good esoteric sense (not travelling too quickly, taking things in your stride, going at a speed that you are comfortable with, not learning too much too soon etc), but the explanation of the cable tow does remove the ability of a candidate being able to leave of his own free will and accord. I am open to other explanations as being reasonable but could easily be grasped by darkness as an effective method of lodge penetration, which could lead to a lodge becoming a lodge of darkness not light.

Hi Stewart,

The wording is archaic and no longer carries the same weight or sentiment that it originally did. In some ritual the Cable-Tow is mentioned thus:

"As you were hoodwinked (blindfolded) the cable-tow around your neck enabled you to be led from the lodge without having the secrets of Freemasonry revealed to you."

In context, when the candidate is led in, the Lodge is Tyled which means that 'none but Freemasons' may be present. If the candidate were to decide not to take the obligation, he could be removed from the Lodge Room without catching sight of a Tyled Lodge.

It's very much like the antient Blood Rituals; some ritual still uses them, and others don't; and those that do, are at pains to point out that they are only symbolic.

[stewart edwards]

"As you were hoodwinked (blindfolded) the cable-tow around your neck enabled you to be led from the lodge without having the secrets of Freemasonry revealed to you."

In context, when the candidate is led in, the Lodge is Tyled which means that 'none but Freemasons' may be present. If the candidate were to decide not to take the obligation, he could be removed from the Lodge Room without catching sight of a Tyled Lodge.Now this I am comfortable with.

The significant issue is the intent of the lodge, for what you describe is appropriate for a lodge of light, but equally what Peter describes could be (though not necessarily) used by a lodge in darkness to act as an entry point for the further penetration of darkness into an individual, the lodge and indeed into the community. Which is why it is important that hearts are good.

[stevepenny]

Now this I am comfortable with.

The significant issue is the intent of the lodge, for what you describe is appropriate for a lodge of light, but equally what Peter describes could be (though not necessarily) used by a lodge in darkness to act as an entry point for the further penetration of darkness into an individual, the lodge and indeed into the community. Which is why it is important that hearts are good.

Hi Stewart,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say a 'lodge in darkness'? In the EA degree the candidate enters blindfolded (hoodwinked) which serves two purposes; firstly it prevents the candidate seeing a tyled lodge prior to him taking the obligation, and secondly, the removal after the obligation allows him to receive 'more light'.

At all times the Lodge is fully lit. It is only in one part of a higher degree that the Lodge is in darkness when the candidate enters, and the light received in this element of the degree allows the candidate to focus on one specific aspect of that degree.

[stewart edwards]

Hi Stewart,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say a 'lodge in darkness'?Steve I am most definately on the esoteric side of Freemasonry as opposed to the social side.

In the EA degree the candidate enters blindfolded (hoodwinked) which serves two purposes; firstly it prevents the candidate seeing a tyled lodge prior to him taking the obligation,Makes perfect sense.

and secondly, the removal after the obligation allows him to receive 'more light'.How? By physically seeing lights? Or by seeing the brethren around him? There is much more to light than this Steve. It comes from your heart, and the only way that you will gain more light (as in spiritual light, knowledge of yourself, moving up the ladder, etc) is by a lot of hard work on yourself (smoothing the ashlar) and you do this by Practicing the Craft (sucking eggs I know but some seem to think that these are just words or simply by joining you do these things). Before you can do this you do have to be initiated in real life, which I am told, by your brothers, rarely accords with lodge initiations. Recently on the masonic forum of life I was told that many Freemasons forget about the mystic tie and about how lodge work reflects (and hopefully gives a step up) what happens in real life etc.

At all times the Lodge is fully lit.Again light in this sense has nothing whatsoever todo with light bulbs or candles. It is the same light that was taught in the ancient mystery schools, and in our world today in at least some branches of freemasonry, in parts of the new age, and in some religions. It is about coming to know yourself better, climbing the old ladder etc. Now if freemasonry has absolutely nothing to do with this as some masons claim, then it is interesting for from the little that I know about freemasonry it is such a theoretically effective means of teaching this stuff, supporting and guiding people as they travel.

Try not to think in terms of good and bad, for darkness and light dont correlate exactly with this. The way that I tend to explain it is that we all (as individuals and organisations) have the spark of light within us, but we also have the seeds of darkness. And the eternal battle raveges to see whether an individual will illuminate the way or act as a drain of darkness. You can see it when people argue, when people bully, in egos, everywhere.

At a mundane level, in a way that is easy to see, you could consider light and darkness as follows. Ever argued with someone then regretted it and knew that you shouldnt have? Did part of you know at the time that you should bite your tongue, yet you still lashed out? At the simplest level this is an effective illustration of the seeds of darkness and the flame of light. Once you scale this up to look at issues surrounding masonic lodges, you can see the same factors at play which is to be expected. But when the seeds win over lodges can do unseen harm in the community and to their members. And as with most darkness it is sneaky silent and most people turn a blind eye for they are so used to it in society. I have extensively explained this over the past half decade on various masonic forums, often using real life lodge events that have been published by your brotehrs to illustrate.

[stevepenny]

Steve I am most definately on the esoteric side of Freemasonry as opposed to the social side.

Stewart,

I'm sure you mean well but I don't need a lesson on esoterism:). My question was what do YOU infer by a lodge in darkness.

How? By physically seeing lights? Or by seeing the brethren around him? There is much more to light than this Steve.

Exactly; the candidate receives spiritual light.

Before you can do this you do have to be initiated in real life, which I am told, by your brothers, rarely accords with lodge initiations. Recently on the masonic forum of life I was told that many Freemasons forget about the mystic tie and about how lodge work reflects (and hopefully gives a step up) what happens in real life etc.

I would agree with this sentiment; to a large degree (no pun intended) Freemasonry is about self discovery and establishing a moral and ethical code that accords with life in general.

[stewart edwards]

Sorry Steve, I didnt mean to be well, you know..My question was what do YOU infer by a lodge in darkness.Easy one that has (hopefully temporarily) lost/forgotten the core essence of it all. One that goes through the motions but doesnt really help its members find the light.

[grandsecretary]

Sorry Steve, I didnt mean to be well, you know..Easy one that has (hopefully temporarily) lost/forgotten the core essence of it all. One that goes through the motions but doesnt really help its members find the light.

I concur with this Stewart. Thank you.

[boots]

Based on Peters explanation I agree with Boots. The explanation of the poignard makes good esoteric sense (not travelling too quickly, taking things in your stride, going at a speed that you are comfortable with, not learning too much too soon etc), but the explanation of the cable tow does remove the ability of a candidate being able to leave of his own free will and accord. I am open to other explanations as being reasonable but could easily be grasped by darkness as an effective method of lodge penetration, which could lead to a lodge becoming a lodge of darkness not light.

The darkness is all ready there stewart. The idea behind masonry as being charitable and men of morals is fine, but does is it this way when you have rituals which are threats to keep a secret, which shouldn't be a secret anyway.


.

[stevepenny]

The darkness is all ready there stewart. The idea behind masonry as being charitable and men of morals is fine, but does is it this way when you have rituals which are threats to keep a secret, which shouldn't be a secret anyway.

.

Which threats to keep a secret?, Which secret?, and why shouldn't it be a secret?

[decim]

So that's 3 pyramids, 1 dagger & a side order of skull blood?

drinking blood from a skull does not feature in craft Freemasonry but is a feature of the ritual in a higher (side) order.

From What or Who's blood did these drinkers sup?

Was/is a Human skull used & from where?

What is accomplished by the blood drinking?

[keystone]

Just a bookmark to allow me to find this later. Work now!

Cheers

[boots]

Which threats to keep a secret?, Which secret?, and why shouldn't it be a secret?

WHAT!!!

You tell me steve

I'll tell you this though, any ritual you do has a higher meaning it is a pledge you make to someone or something. What you do is, to put it simply. You sell your soul. You give away your power and you had better be sure of what you do or it will come back to bite you on the arse.

.

[bluehorseman]

Which threats to keep a secret?, Which secret?, and why shouldn't it be a secret?

There are secrets Stevepenny- what about knowing the end of the world and how the world was begun which according to G.Sec he has seen documentation of? < If this is indeed true then it is an example of how serious these secrets are and as such should be open to the general public; and also it makes you wonder what other important information your order has.

[grandsecretary]

There are secrets Stevepenny- what about knowing the end of the world and how the world was begun which according to G.Sec he has seen documentation of? < If this is indeed true then it is an example of how serious these secrets are and as such should be open to the general public; and also it makes you wonder what other important information your order has.

Well for once I agree with boots. I found out, after quite some time, that being a Moderns freemason was, not selling my soul, but denying that there are such things as one God, the Creator, and an immortal soul.

[grandsecretary]

WHAT!!!

You tell me steve

I'll tell you this though, any ritual you do has a higher meaning it is a pledge you make to someone or something. What you do is, to put it simply. You sell your soul. You give away your power and you had better be sure of what you do or it will come back to bite you on the arse.

.

Well I wouldn't put it quite like this, but boots is basically correct (not selling the soul but denying its existence). The Moderns form of freemasonry, which is a corruption, does EXACTLY this.

In fact, I could not have summed it up any better.

[stevepenny]

WHAT!!!

You tell me steve

Boots, you made the statement; so what exactly do you want me to tell you? You said:

...when you have rituals which are threats to keep a secret, which shouldn't be a secret anyway.

So i'll repeat the question; what threats are imposed or suggested to keep a secret? And if these secrets do exist, why should they not be kept a secret, and why do you think that; as a non Mason, you have a right to know?

Try this; go to the boardroom of the nearest company and ask to see the minutes of their last board meeting. When they tell you to go away would you challenge them and ask "why the secrecy"?

I'll tell you this though, any ritual you do has a higher meaning it is a pledge you make to someone or something. What you do is, to put it simply. You sell your soul. You give away your power and you had better be sure of what you do or it will come back to bite you on the arse.

How do you know that the ritual requires anyone to sell their soul? If you go to court and swear an oath to tell the truth, you are meeting the requirements of your own argument. Does this mean that telling the truth, or at least swearing to tell the truth, means selling your soul?

[stevepenny]

Well for once I agree with boots. I found out, after quite some time, that being a Moderns freemason was, not selling my soul, but denying that there are such things as one God, the Creator, and an immortal soul.

This is one of the key arguments against 'Modern' Freemasonry; and one to which I do have some sympathy. I regularly post on a Christian forum and sometimes EMFJ if I am in the mood for a good argument, where this question frequently crops up. I must confess to reading some very compelling arguments, particularly with regards to the wording in some of the ritual, and more especially in respect of the 'Raising'.

Fortunately in Scotland we do not use 'Emulation' or 'Taylors' which seem to be the main protagonists. This isn't the right thread for this topic but it might be worth starting one.

[bluehorseman]

Well for once I agree with boots. I found out, after quite some time, that being a Moderns freemason was, not selling my soul, but denying that there are such things as one God, the Creator, and an immortal soul.

G.Sec I was refering to this post by you in the beliefs and practices thread:

We have a hand written fair copy of a manuscript in the Gaelic tongue, dated c. AD 798. It is reputed to have been written by Óengus mac Óengobann, better known as Saint Óengus of Tallaght or Óengus the Culdee, an Irish bishop, reformer and writer. Unlike the HigginsMasonic document this ancient manuscript was used at Tallacht Abbey, the mother house of the Culdee (Céli Dé) Movement at Tallacht, County Wicklow, Ireland which was co-founded by Maelruain and Saint Óengus in AD 774



The content of these manuscripts have been handed down by pre-Davidic King Priests. They describe in detail the beginning and the end of time, and the secrets of the universe.

from where you say further:

It has been scanned to computer. It measures 50MB of text. I am afraid that it is only available to those who wish to be baptised and instructed in Free Masonrie.


There you go then.
I think this is important.

[boots]

Boots, you made the statement; so what exactly do you want me to tell you? You said:



So i'll repeat the question; what threats are imposed or suggested to keep a secret? And if these secrets do exist, why should they not be kept a secret, and why do you think that; as a non Mason, you have a right to know?

Try this; go to the boardroom of the nearest company and ask to see the minutes of their last board meeting. When they tell you to go away would you challenge them and ask "why the secrecy"?



How do you know that the ritual requires anyone to sell their soul? If you go to court and swear an oath to tell the truth, you are meeting the requirements of your own argument. Does this mean that telling the truth, or at least swearing to tell the truth, means selling your soul?

I’m not interested in playing semantics steve, The initiation for the apprentice requires that he wear a noose, cable tie, a looped rope with a knot around his neck. And to be blindfolded then his chest is laid bare and a dagger (you know a shaft with a pointy end)to the throat made to kneel ( beg) before the “master” He is told to keep secrets from the profane on threats of implied death

It’s a ritual and a pledge, you have agreed that your energy is to be used for the brotherhood.. This is the same as NLP. It’s all mind control. If you can’t see that then you are a feather in the wind.

You might like to think it’s the same as asking the minutes from a corporation but it’s totally different they don’t deal in esoteric symbols and rituals do they.

There should be no secrets if there are masons within all aspects of society and powerful positions The “privileged” few cannot hold sway over the democracy which we all belong too. That is why your organization it being exposed for what it is.

[stevepenny]

The initiation for the apprentice requires that he wear a noose, cable tie, a looped rope with a knot around his neck. And to be blindfolded then his chest is laid bare and a dagger (you know a shaft with a pointy end)to the throat made to kneel ( beg) before the “master” He is told to keep secrets from the profane on threats of implied death.

You are quite incorrect in this statement, no dagger or pointy thing is held to the throat, he is not made to kneel (beg) before the master, and there are no threats of death, implied or otherwise.

It's not a case of semantics; it's a case that you are wrong.

It’s a ritual and a pledge, you have agreed that your energy is to be used for the brotherhood.. This is the same as NLP. It’s all mind control. If you can’t see that then you are a feather in the wind.

Again you are wrong. There is no agreement that your energy is to be used for the Brotherhood; in fact quite the opposite. It is clearly stated that your obligation is to God, Family, The State, and then Freemasonry; in that specific order.

There should be no secrets if there are masons within all aspects of society and powerful positions The “privileged” few cannot hold sway over the democracy which we all belong too. That is why your organization it being exposed for what it is.

Again I ask the question; what secrets are you so concerned about; and what gives YOU the right to know. If you are that desperate to know, why not simply join?

[grandsecretary]

Steve, boots may have a good point here. The initiation ceremonies within Freemasonry, as with any other ritual ceremony such as Catholic Baptism, are designed in such a way that they change behaviour.

Change of behaviour requires a change of belief, a change of thinking, a different mindset.

The penalties used to be a reminder to the initiate that they are mortal and if they transgressed they would lose their immortal soul. The moral (religious) basis for this was removed by the Moderns in 1723. It is now just an elite club or "fraternity" (frat club) with silly games, in fancy dress.

[boots]

You are quite incorrect in this statement, no dagger or pointy thing is held to the throat, he is not made to kneel (beg) before the master, and there are no threats of death, implied or otherwise.

It's not a case of semantics; it's a case that you are wrong.


Blatant liar. So for the deciever I'll have to post this again.


The hangman's noose is actually called a "cable-tow" which is defined as a "rope; cable; cord; ritualistically, symbol or method of control of and initiate" (which may have been how a person was led during the Inquisition). Several Masons have written to me that most of the information Knight and Lomas present about Freemasonry is either outdated or incorrect
The candidate was questioned with a dagger blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. (Although the dagger is apparently not used in many American lodges, I have been reliably informed that it is still used in United Grand Lodge of England [UGLE] rituals.)
.
AND this from GS.

Just to be absolutely clear, the Poignard (dagger) and the Cable Tow (noose) are both still used in the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry.

They signify the following:

Poignard: ... that if an initiate attempted to rush forward into a lodge without being fully qualified by initiation he would be an accessory to his own death by stabbing as the brother who held it would have stood firm and done his duty.



Again you are wrong. There is no agreement that your energy is to be used for the Brotherhood; in fact quite the opposite. It is clearly stated that your obligation is to God, Family, The State, and then Freemasonry; in that specific order.


Listen feather. if you deny the esoteric meaning of masonry and can't comprehend Quantum physic and how thoughts are energy then you really are lost and a fool.



Again I ask the question; what secrets are you so concerned about; and what gives YOU the right to know. If you are that desperate to know, why not simply join?

I have every right to know. If masons are Prime ministers and presidents and members of Bilderberg groups and other think tanks which decide the out come for society then I have the right.


- Only 5% of 32nd and higher degree freemasons are invited into the Illuminati. Many "Christians freemasons" would contend that freemasonry is not a religion. The plan of freemasonry is that the majority of freemasons do not even know it is a religion. The plan of freemasonry is to deceive the majority of freemasons from the truth that Lucifer, or Satan, is the god of freemasonry. -
- [I]The Federal Observer -
(Posted here: Sep 12, 2005) http://www.illuminati-news.com/graphics/051306c/deadly-deception-cover.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0910311544/ref=dp_image_0/103-1713103-6302240?_encoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books) http://www.illuminati-news.com/graphics/051306c/33-degree-symbol.gif



What degree mason are you??

http://www.illuminati-news.com/graphics/masonic-eye.jpg http://www.illuminati-news.com/graphics/masonic-eagle.jpg
The Masonic Seal of America (http://www.geocities.com/endtimedeception/seal.htm)
- This is the Great Seal of the United States of America. It was designed by the Freemasons and contains a mass of symbolism that the profane (non masons) are not to understand. This article will once and for all prove that the Seal is a Masonic design. Have you ever asked the question 'Why is there a Pyramid on our $1 note"? The religion of Freemasonry and some of it's mysteries have descended from ancient Egypt whose mysteries descended from ancient Babylon. The Pyramid has of old been a fascination of Freemasons. It is a pagan temple of Satan worship. -
- Endtimedeception -


Freemasons - Its Roots & Links to the Occult (http://www.zephnet.com/?select=squib&league=composite&post_id=73651&docket=1&linkoff=1)
- The Royal Arch Degree shows that Masons are really Baal worshipers. Most Masons do it without realizing it by participating in rituals that they really don't understand. However, a few top-level Masons (those in highest authority) know exactly what they are doing. -
- Zephnet.com -

Either wake and research or be comfortable in your ignorance.

.

[boots]

Steve, boots may have a good point here. The initiation ceremonies within Freemasonry, as with any other ritual ceremony such as Catholic Baptism, are designed in such a way that they change behaviour.

Change of behaviour requires a change of belief, a change of thinking, a different mindset.

The penalties used to be a reminder to the initiate that they are mortal and if they transgressed they would lose their immortal soul. The moral (religious) basis for this was removed by the Moderns in 1723. It is now just an elite club or "fraternity" (frat club) with silly games, in fancy dress.

Good post GS

I see you understand it and get the meaning behind the rituals.


.

[stevepenny]

Blatant liar. So for the deciever I'll have to post this again.

[B]The hangman's noose is actually called a "cable-tow" which is defined as a "rope; cable; cord; ritualistically, symbol or method of control of and initiate" (which may have been how a person was led during the Inquisition).

Correct thus far, but not a liar.

Several Masons have written to me that most of the information Knight and Lomas present about Freemasonry is either outdated or incorrect

I quite agree.

The candidate was questioned with a dagger blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy

In Scotland under the Grand Lodge of Scotland this is utter BS. You can buy the ritual book from the GLoS website if you need clarification.

The candidate enters the lodge and a SWORD is pressed to his naked breast. Whilst STANDING he is informed "Enter this Lodge of ____ on the point of this sword pressing your naked ____ breast. As this may prove a torture to your soul, so may its recollection prove a torture to your conscience should you ever attempt to reveal the secrets of Freemasonry unlawfully.

See; no dagger, no kneeling (begging) before the master. Live with it and move on.

(Although the dagger is apparently not used in many [if not all] American lodges, I have been reliably informed that it is still used in United Grand Lodge of England [UGLE] rituals.)

You are reliably uninformed. It is used in CERTAIN ritual books, but by no means all. It is not used in Scotland nor in Ireland. You really must stop believing that one statement fits all.


AND this from GS.

Just to be absolutely clear, the Poignard (dagger) and the Cable Tow (noose) are both still used in the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry.

Again GS is correct in respect of those who use it.

... that if an initiate attempted to rush forward into a lodge without being fully qualified by initiation he would be an accessory to his own death by stabbing as the brother who held it would have stood firm and done his duty.

Correct.

Listen feather. if you deny the esoteric meaning of masonry and can't comprehend Quantum physic and how thoughts are energy then you really are lost and a fool.

You haven't asked about the esoteric meanings. If you were more specific in your questions I might be more specific in my answers. Your problem is that you have no first hand knowledge of the craft, preferring to rely on 'third party' sources for your information.

I have every right to know. If masons are Prime ministers and presidents and members of Bilderberg groups and other think tanks which decide the out come for society then I have the right.

Again it is you that have the problem; you are demanding to know something, but you don't know what it is that you demand to know. What secrets do you think the Masons are in possesion of that need to know about.

If I said to you that the 'Moderns' Masonic secrets are centered around the modes of recognition, would you still need to know what they were?

Only 5% of 32nd and higher degree freemasons are invited into the Illuminati. Many "Christians freemasons" would contend that freemasonry is not a religion. The plan of freemasonry is that the majority of freemasons do not even know it is a religion. The plan of freemasonry is to deceive the majority of freemasons from the truth that Lucifer, or Satan, is the god of freemasonry. - The Federal Observer.

Well that's it then; the secret is out, all hail the Federal Observer. ;)

There is no higer degree in 'Moderns' Freemasonry than that of a Master Mason (the 3rd Degree), of which I am proud to call myself one.

The Scottish Rite (which you are referring too), is an American institution formed in South Carolina in the 1800's. How many 32nd and 33rd degree Freemasons are there? Is 5% a lot or not a lot. I have no idea.

What degree mason are you??

I am a 'Mark Master Mason', the highest degree in the Blue Lodge. I am also a member of other Masonic Orders which I will not divulge.

The Royal Arch Degree shows that Masons are really Baal worshipers. Most Masons do it without realizing it by participating in rituals that they really don't understand. However, a few top-level Masons (those in highest authority) know exactly what they are doing.

I'd be interested in this one. If you are referring to the Name of Deity in the Royal Arch Degree then again you are mis-informed.

Either wake and research or be comfortable in your ignorance.

I'm far enough up the tree to know what is what. I have been researching for many years and know a lot more than most. Your problem is that you are not in a position to know the truth; you can only research it from badly informed sources. If I deny something you will only come back and quote some other poor sap who is as mis-informed as yourself.

If you want to ask specific questions then I will try to answer where I can. If I can't answer then i'll tell you I can't answer; but if I do then you have to accept that as the truth as I understand it.

[stevepenny]

Steve, boots may have a good point here. The initiation ceremonies within Freemasonry, as with any other ritual ceremony such as Catholic Baptism, are designed in such a way that they change behaviour.

Change of behaviour requires a change of belief, a change of thinking, a different mindset.

The penalties used to be a reminder to the initiate that they are mortal and if they transgressed they would lose their immortal soul. The moral (religious) basis for this was removed by the Moderns in 1723. It is now just an elite club or "fraternity" (frat club) with silly games, in fancy dress.

Hi Peter,

I am in complete accord with you, and have been working to change this but to no avail. If Boots were to stop generalising then I will be more inclined to help him where I can.

I should have my internet back on at home on Friday so I will email you about some pressing matters :)

[grandsecretary]

Very well.

[keystone]

Blatant liar. So for the deciever I'll have to post this again.


The hangman's noose is actually called a "cable-tow" which is defined as a "rope; cable; cord; ritualistically, symbol or method of control of and initiate" (which may have been how a person was led during the Inquisition). Several Masons have written to me that most of the information Knight and Lomas present about Freemasonry is either outdated or incorrect
The candidate was questioned with a dagger blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. (Although the dagger is apparently not used in many [if not all] American lodges, I have been reliably informed that it is still used in United Grand Lodge of England [UGLE] rituals.)

Boots - Steve is not lying. He is a Scottish mason and he is telling what happens in Scottish ritual.

GS has stated and you are both correct about the cable tow and the poignard being used in UGLE Lodges but what you have transcribed above is incorrect. If I may:

The candidate is brought into the Lodge blindfolded "that his heart might conceive before his eyes should discover".

He does have a cable tow about his neck. He is not led around by it and noone touches it until it is removed at a certain point during the ceremony. Depending on whether it was placed there after the blindfold was put on he may not even know what it is.

The poignard is used when he enters the Lodge when it is lightly touched to his chest. He is asked "do you feel anything?" He has no idea at the time what it was he felt. There is no duress there as he has no idea what it was.

The candidate is questioned about his suitability but the poignard is nowhere near him at that point. The CT is still around his neck but I repeat noone is touching it.

Cheers

[stevepenny]

Boots - Steve is not lying. He is a Scottish mason and he is telling what happens in Scottish ritual.

Thank you Keystone :) Unfortunately I think that 'Boots' has moved on.

[keystone]

Thank you Keystone :) Unfortunately I think that 'Boots' has moved on.Au plaisir. Oh he'll be back. Hes half a world away don't forget with consequent time differences.

Cheers