Parking Ticket help please

[airkraft]

Hi. I would like some advice on what my next course of action is towards Liverpool City Council (LCC).

While I was attending the "Beyond Knowledge" Talks, I received a parking ticket at (for those that know the area) Mount Pleasant Multi Story Carpark.

The truthful story is :- I arrived late for the event at 11.25 am and wanted to buy a ticket to last till 20:00 pm (£6), but the ticket machine wouldnt take £2 coins so I had to use what other change I had to buy a ticket which only lasted for 2 hrs(£2.40).

I returned at about 13:15pm, within the 2hr ticket range, with correct change and a bought a ticket which covered me till 20:00pm which I promptly stuck the to the rear view mirror.

I returned at 20:00pm to find I had a PCN on my car windscreen. The PCN was for "parked after expiry of paid for times". When I checked the time on the PCN it said 13:36pm on it. I then realised the ticket for 20:00pm was not displayed because it had fallen face up onto my drivers seat, but still clearly visible from the side window.

I wrote a letter to LCC to explain about buying 2 tickets and provided a photo copy of the 20:00pm ticket, but they replied that the officer had checked all windows and there was no visable sign of a ticket, so they want me to pay the fine. I couldnt believe it !!!!!

Could anyone advise on my next course of action please.

[Mo0n5tar]

Does the ticket you bought have a time and date of issue on it?

[not amused]

Does the ticket you bought have a time and date of issue on it?
that doesn't matter as you could have found that 20.00 ticket on the floor and are trying to pull a fast one, it's your word against theirs I think, I would try the citizens advice as they pack quite a punch.. good luck

[makeithappen]

I would go to www.fmotl.com
Use the template to conditionally accept.
Anything they send you back ( they ignore your notices) you write back with the same notice, and ref the original.
keep doing this till they send you the independent kangaroo court form.
Fill that in ignoring any MR / First / Surname and cross it all out, and complete as e.g. david of the icke family
Write that you have conditionally accepted the fine explain what has happened as a reasonable human and as you conditionally accepted the fine nothing is in dispute, you just are asking for the proof from them, they (the council) are the ones in dis-honour. Ask for a paper hearing.

I am now 4-0 up using this method! Oh, make sure you do not sign anything, read the info on FMOTL first. send recorded mail.

You will be fine.

[hollo]

it seems easy to say "dont pay"

whats the ticket for £30 /£60?!

the more letters you send them saying your not paying and the more you drag your feet the better as they arnt going to want to pay money to take you to court for £60 - even if they do - you have the ticket!! and thats the best evidence that could be used!

[airkraft]

Does the ticket you bought have a time and date of issue on it?

No it doesnt...it just has a ticket number on it, which I`m sure they can validate with checking the machine that issued it.

[airkraft]

it seems easy to say "dont pay"

whats the ticket for £30 /£60?!

the more letters you send them saying your not paying and the more you drag your feet the better as they arnt going to want to pay money to take you to court for £60 - even if they do - you have the ticket!! and thats the best evidence that could be used!


The ticket was for £50....but if I pay within 14 days its £25.

Its not the amount of money, its the principal.....I have bought 2 tickets and have the proof.
I could see the ticket on the car seat from the window .....and read it, but the officer couldnt ?????

I just cant believe they dont take my word that I bought them when I actually showed them the evidence

I will send a letter back.....but its how to word it, thats the problem. I will look on the FMOTL website for advice

[airkraft]

I would go to www.fmotl.com
Use the template to conditionally accept.
Anything they send you back ( they ignore your notices) you write back with the same notice, and ref the original.
keep doing this till they send you the independent kangaroo court form.
Fill that in ignoring any MR / First / Surname and cross it all out, and complete as e.g. david of the icke family
Write that you have conditionally accepted the fine explain what has happened as a reasonable human and as you conditionally accepted the fine nothing is in dispute, you just are asking for the proof from them, they (the council) are the ones in dis-honour. Ask for a paper hearing.

I am now 4-0 up using this method! Oh, make sure you do not sign anything, read the info on FMOTL first. send recorded mail.

You will be fine.

The thing is, I dont accept the fine.....I thought the idea was to not agree to the "contract" because there is no signature....or something along those lines :confused:

[hollo]

The ticket was for £50....but if I pay within 14 days its £25.

they use this fear technique a lot so ppl pay up quickly

my sisters fighting a ticket atm - she has sent 2 letters about a week ago
- havent heard anything since :)

[theoneandonly]

The thing is, I dont accept the fine.....I thought the idea was to not agree to the "contract" because there is no signature....or something along those lines :confused:

Conditionally accept it.. so that means you agree to pay if they prove to you that you lawfully have to pay.. and because you have conditionally agreed to pay there is no dispute to take you to court with! They just have to provide you with what you have asked for (the conditions).

[entheogen]

Perhaps ask them for :

1. Proof of Claim - that the council is not in fact a business operating for profit and therefore holds no jurisdiction under common law

2. Signed copy of the contract between both parties

3. Signed bill in accordance with the bills of exchange act

;)

[makeithappen]

Conditionally accept it.. so that means you agree to pay if they prove to you that you lawfully have to pay.. and because you have conditionally agreed to pay there is no dispute to take you to court with! They just have to provide you with what you have asked for (the conditions).

Thanks one and only, spot on words.

All I can add is that you have been given an offer of a contract, this is conditional, in that if you do nothing, you have to pay, if you say no I do not accept it, you have to pay, If you conditional accept it, you are just saying, please explain this to me some more, I am peaceful and want to help you solve this, please supply me with a little more information and here is my information to think about also. All the templates you need are on fmotl.com, pm me if you need some help. (I say "have to pay" in the way the council view it, not that you have to pay anything you have not contracted to)

For the record, I have now won 1 case from Norwich Council and 3 from London boroughs, one has sent a bailiff around to my house 2 times, but I was peaceful and asked him more questions than he could answer. Not been over to mine for 3 months now. One case I even have a letter saying, you win! Another where they did not turn up to represent even thou I made a request for a paper hearing, funny. It is all bull shit, what is the worse that can happen? I mean really, just how bad? think about it for 5 minutes, and 5 minutes thinking about that will be quite a feat!

Do you fear them? If so, pay up and move on. I done this to test myself, not to win or loose, just to experience the challenge, find out how much and far I am prepared to go. I am now building the strength to get on with my affidavit, noi and cor.

MIH

[sixfour]

I know it's not following the fmotl methods, but this one should really be a very simple matter to resolve - without all the hassle of writing a ton of letters and worrying about timescales etc.

Just sit tight, and wait for the "notice to owner" to arrive in your letterbox.
When it does, you file a stat dec (ie: you write in the box provided, or attach a letter) explaining that you bought a ticket and the ticket officer must have missed it, as i had bought another ticket earlier. Attach a photocopy of the ticket you bought.

Sit back and wait for it to be dropped.
This goes to the ombudsman, who in my experience is actually pretty fair.

I'm still waiting for a good opportunity to try out the fmotl concept, but sometimes it's a lot less hassle to "play their game" - especially if the outcome is as favourable as your looks to be.

Good luck.

[pureheart]

I thought traffic wardens had to take photographs now to prove that the ticket was not in any way visible? I've seen them taking photographs of the inside of a car before.

[sixfour]

It doesn't really matter too much I don't think. Who's to say it didn't fall off. Condensation or something. Whatever, the fact is - he actually did pay for a ticket. If you were to go the freeman route - why even buy a ticket at all?

Applying freeman principles to this train of thought - he bought a ticket, therefore has paid for a service. If they are then trying to extort extra money out of him, this is out of order. Hence my reason to "play their game" this one time - as he really has already paid for the parking service.

Before you all jump on me, I'm waiting try out these principles for real one time - but the only tickets i've had to fight have been in my girlfriends name. So, as you can understand, i'm not about to play around with her "persona" to experiment. If i ever get a ticket of my very own, i'm certainly going to explore this further!

[airkraft]

I know it's not following the fmotl methods, but this one should really be a very simple matter to resolve - without all the hassle of writing a ton of letters and worrying about timescales etc.

Just sit tight, and wait for the "notice to owner" to arrive in your letterbox.
When it does, you file a stat dec (ie: you write in the box provided, or attach a letter) explaining that you bought a ticket and the ticket officer must have missed it, as i had bought another ticket earlier. Attach a photocopy of the ticket you bought.

Sit back and wait for it to be dropped.
This goes to the ombudsman, who in my experience is actually pretty fair.

I'm still waiting for a good opportunity to try out the fmotl concept, but sometimes it's a lot less hassle to "play their game" - especially if the outcome is as favourable as your looks to be.

Good luck.


Do you think it would be a good thing writing back now with a few more details that others in work came up with for me to ask about, like.....To check the CCTV footage.....to check the time on the machine when the tickets were bought etc.....To co-oberate my story.

I have my story(my word)...I have the 2 tickets (evidence) against a ticketing officers word, with no evidence


This ticketing system also brought some more questions up in work....it says the ticket is "not transferable"...this obviously means that you cant hand it to somebody else to use if there is any time left on it......So.....what are you actually paying for, is it the time or the parking space, and if you are paying for one/both, then you should be able to do with it/them as you wish.....cant you. This may include giving it to somebody else to use if you so wish....its yours (time/parking space) untill the ticket says its not.......as long as you dont sell it of course.

[airkraft]

Thankyou so much for all the help and advice everyone

[sixfour]

Don't write back. Just sit tight and wait for the NtO. Sometimes councils play silly buggers and never post it though, so if you end up getting a "charge certificate" through the post instead of a notice to owner, then they have fucked up. In which case, you fill in a form provided, stating you never recieved the NtO, and then it reverts back to that stage and you can "make your representations" - ie: send in your evidence and a short letter stating that you bought a ticket, and here it is *attached*.

Bosh, done.

It's a shitty system, but easy to sort this one out by playing their game this time i'd say.