Where does "fundie" christianity fit with Truthers

[dhama_initiative]

I don't get it, There are christian truthers here who are "fundies" believe in the end times and that people need Jesus etc. Yet, the govt in the USA is influenced by the fundie establishment and they have a lot of power and talk to presidents. So how do they figure it out? Do they just say that the christians with the power are the bad ones? Or that they are the only good influence on TPTB.

[dhama_initiative]

To expand, this is where I ponder,

I grew up in a evangelical/fundie family and church (I am using those words in their denominational sense).

I had an older friend at church who was a real strict "fundie" (even the other members thought him noturiously strict). Anti gay, moralistic, etc. He was really into conspiracies and talked in church for ages about the Vatican, the Mafia, the Freemasons and how they were all demonic and working together.

My parents are now into preachers who cast out demons and they help cast out demons too. (I don't go to that type of church as I didn't like the atmosohere and it made me uncomfortable). Basically "pentecostal, charismatic".

But, the way they describe the demons, (and the way their books I borrowed describe possesion) is exactly the same way Icke and others describe reptilian/alien harrasment.

I read "fundie" "pentecostal" Christian books that described demon harrasment, a book about alien harrasment, and an Icke book about reptilian harrasment, and the descriptions of experiences were all exactly the same.

However, those same Christian books, will then go on to condemn Icke as a "new-age deciever" etc.

I read this one Christian anti new-age book, that had a chapter on Hitler's control by his occult master (eckhart?) . The text was almost exactly the same as the section in Icke's "Biggest Secret" book, word for word. But the same book complained about Icke as a deciever. And Icke himself is against "fundie" Christians and debunks them (he said loving types like Quakers were ok). (and he also said Christ himself was ok.)

So I wonder, they are all all having the same experience with these same scary dimensional creatures (whatever you call them) , but one of them must be getting it wrong - ie, interpreting it in the wrong way, explaining them in the wrong way.

[dhama_initiative]

ie, the "fundies" dont believe in gay rights, they dont believe people should be allowed to sleep with who they like, unlike Icke who has the complete opposite view.

They believe that non Christians will go to hell, and that people of other faiths need to be told that their faith is wrong and that jesus is the only way, Icke says no faiths should be judged and people should be left alone to follow the faith they want.

[marpat]

They have one particular stance, that the world is evil and you need jesus to save it. All the conspiracy theories then become the work of their devil until you hit the idea of religious conspiracies and manipulation.

[geolaureate8]

ie, the "fundies" dont believe in gay rights, they dont believe people should be allowed to sleep with who they like, unlike Icke who has the complete opposite view.

They believe that non Christians will go to hell, and that people of other faiths need to be told that their faith is wrong and that jesus is the only way, Icke says no faiths should be judged and people should be left alone to follow the faith they want.

What? Icke judges every faith and says they're all a load of bollocks. And he's right.

To answer the question though, I don't think you can be a Christian in the alternative research movement. You just can't search for the truth, if you already think you've found it. If you found the truth and it's in the Bible, why bother researching, why bother seeking, why bother any of that. You found your book and it ends there.

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[truth finder]

They have one particular stance, that the world is evil and you need jesus to save it. All the conspiracy theories then become the work of their devil until you hit the idea of religious conspiracies and manipulation.



thats not true at all..........

[dhama_initiative]

hmm true that he does judge religions, I should have said he says you shouldnt judge the people that follow them.

[dhama_initiative]

To answer the question though, I don't think you can be a Christian in the alternative research movement. You just can't search for the truth, if you already think you've found it. If you found the truth and it's in the Bible, why bother researching, why bother seeking, why bother any of that. You found your book and it ends there.

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You can still look at current politicians and situations and wonder what your faiths view toward them should be. You can look at current people who represent your faith and figure out if they are liars or good people.

[danceswithbunnies]

I don't get it, There are christian truthers here who are "fundies" believe in the end times and that people need Jesus etc. Yet, the govt in the USA is influenced by the fundie establishment and they have a lot of power and talk to presidents. So how do they figure it out? Do they just say that the christians with the power are the bad ones? Or that they are the only good influence on TPTB.

Well, let me put it this way..the powers behind the scenes that run the government as a for profit exercise are actually protestants...calvinistic variety (at least that is what i have grown to believe from the info i read at my end)\

Protestant calvinist christianity actually gave rise to the type of vulture capitalism we "enjoy" here in the states where the wealthy collect things and wealth as a mark of "God's Favor".


Here is a christian guy that has some very good information on what is going on:
Antipas Ministries
http://www.antipasministries.com/articles.htm

HOWEVER, most of the christians i have dealt with, including those who are friends of mine (and i do live here in the states) tend to fall for the political dogma that goes with this brand of christianity hook line and sinker...and they are a big voting block that the establishment consistently manipulates into voting against their self interests..

(for example the ridiculous health insurance industry here in the US which has actually caused health care costs to skyrocket, the right wing political corporate goons who dominate talk radio are busy whipping the christians into a frenzy about government health care...and how "we" can't afford it...but for some reason neglect to mention that "we" squander over a trillion dollars per year on a military budget when there isn't even a war going, and Bushy just handed his little banker buddies over 800 Billion dollars of taxpayer money...but "WE" can't afford to provide for the little people who are working three jobs...hmmmm and this is only one example)

Anyway, to address the demonic/reptillian issue, i believe that in many cases they are dealing with fractured shadow parts of themselves but in some cases they may be dealing some separate entity that they have either managed to call in because of the incredible amount of negativity they exude, or may be picked up from other means.

I find it interesting that other religions generally speaking do not have so much congress with demonic entities...of course christians claim that is because the demons attack those who are christ's but i think it may a bit more than that...

[dhama_initiative]

Thats an interesting point about Calvinism and capitalism, i had the same debate with my sister (who is a calvinist)

[danceswithbunnies]

Thats an interesting point about Calvinism and capitalism, i had the same debate with my sister (who is a calvinist)


Antipas writes a bit about it on his site, he talks about the super wealthy who are penurious with themselves (live like they are in the great depression), screw their employees blind, resort to all sorts of callous and reprehensible business tactics...but are "pious" and "good" christians who leave large sums of money to "charities"..& trusts to be dispersed in support of their vision..

...and there is a book by Max Weber:
(don't know if you would be interested or not)

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

http://books.google.com/books?id=fo9OIS7I0XAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=max+weber#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The way capitalism arose was very interesting..i was reading a witch called starhawk, she writes about it in Dreaming in the Dark.

(so does Thom Hartmann)
She talks about how during feudal times, the liege lords actually had a duty to the serfs...(duty went two ways)..the serfs came with the land, and they also had access to the commons, which was land held in common, that could be fished or farmed by those who were down on their luck or destitute.
Unlike today where most of our better standard of living is BECAUSE of technology rather than because of a "capitalistic system" or "democracy", the serfs top rate of taxation was 33% of their gross.
(unlike today where we have so many hidden taxes that if you add everything up we pay close to 80% of our labor here in the US)

Today we are landless wage slaves (we never really own our land we rent it from the government) who are totally at the mercy of employers for our right to live.

So anyway, she writes about the transition from feudalism into merchant bankers and into industrialization..
You do not have to be interested in paganism to find it a fascinating read.
(it is under appendix A, page 189 starts about expropriation of the land)

http://books.google.com/books?id=HJPYwFTG5H0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dreaming+in+the+dark#v=onepage&q=&f=false

You also don't have to agree with everything she is saying to find some fascinating truths buried in there.
She ias also referencing max weber's work.

[michael christopher]

Nowhere.

Judeo-Christianity, like Islam and Judaism, has always been part of the Illuminati plot to take over the collective mind of humanity.

[bendoon]

I don't get it, There are christian truthers here who are "fundies" believe in the end times and that people need Jesus etc. Yet, the govt in the USA is influenced by the fundie establishment and they have a lot of power and talk to presidents. So how do they figure it out? Do they just say that the christians with the power are the bad ones? Or that they are the only good influence on TPTB.

I think you got the highlighted bit wrong.

[danceswithbunnies]

You know what may be going on?

You have already noticed that fundamentalism has been used as a political tool, in christianity, judaism, and islam...they all have their radical fundamentalist sects.

The interesting thing is that it usually takes about 100-120 years for philosophical ideas to hit mainstream..

Now the idea that there is no anthropomorphic god has had to trickle down into mainstream...and i am sincerely wondering IF the fundamentalism in all three faiths that we are witnessing may be a type of reaction against secularism a type of denial?

What i mean by that is that many many people feel hopeless despair and loss of meaning in their lives without some God "out there" at the helm that is orchestrating things...they would have to create their own meaning and they don't know how..couldn't what we are seeing be a psychological last gasp of denial before people move on to find another way of relating to things?

(like it did in the time of Jesus when Judaism was undergoing huge philosophical shifts?)

If that is the case then perhaps fundamentalist engaged in the Truth Movement will eventually have to admit certain things to themselves?
Maybe they are blinded by ideology that causes them to work against their own self interest, and freedom..but if they stay in the truth movement long enough they might lose that..

[bendoon]

Nowhere.

Judeo-Christianity, like Islam and Judaism, has always been part of the Illuminati plot to take over the collective mind of humanity.

Glad you said Judeo Christianity because that's peculiar to US and has only been around for 50 years or so, before then Christianity was anti Jewish.

[geolaureate8]

Glad you said Judeo Christianity because that's peculiar to US and has only been around for 50 years or so, before then Christianity was anti Jewish.

Christianity is an extention of Judaism. And Jesus was a Jew.

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[bendoon]

Christianity is an extention of Judsism. And Jesus was a Jew.

.

Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

[stfd]

Christianity is an extention of Judsism. And Jesus was a Jew.

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riiiight :o

[geolaureate8]

Care to elaborate?

(Sorry for the typo, I was on my iPod touch trying to type.)

[nicolaj]

I'm a Christian and have no problem believing in ufo/aliens we understand Satan is prince of the air, same with demonic possession/alien walk-ins I believe they are one of the same thing.

The difference imo as Christians we accept Jesus as our only way of salvation out of this, we await our new kingdom and have nothing to fear because God is in full control, the things that are taking place now must to fulfil his word. Truthers believe they can do it alone, some truthers believe they can stop the course of what is to take place.

[dhama_initiative]

Nice to see bendoon and stfd blowing us away with their usual standard of deeply thought and meticolous rebuttals.