Pictures of dying marine bring war home to..

[accuracy]

Pictures of dying marine bring war home to America

Angry debate in US as agency releases picture of dying marine in Afghanistan

The Observer, Sunday 6 September 2009

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2009/9/5/1252184990681/Lance-Cpl.-Joshua-Bernard-001.jpg
Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard is tended to by fellow U.S. Marines in Afghanistan. Photograph: Julie Jacobson/AP

It is a graphic image of the harsh realities of war: the fatally wounded young marine lying crumpled in the mud, his vulnerable face turned to the camera. And it is one the US defence secretary would rather you did not see.

Lance Corporal Joshua Bernard, pictured being tended by comrades in southern Afghanistan, died of his injuries soon after. Now the release of this record of the 21-year-old's last moments has divided America, prompting furious debate over the sanitisation of war at a critical time for the military offensive.

The US defence secretary, Robert Gates, condemned the decision by the news agency Associated Press to publish. "I cannot imagine the pain and suffering Lance Corporal Bernard's death has caused his family. Why your organisation would purposefully defy the family's wishes, knowing full well that it will lead to yet more anguish, is beyond me.

"Your lack of compassion and common sense in choosing to put this image of their maimed and stricken child on the front page of multiple American newspapers is appalling."

However, AP, whose photographer Julie Jacobson took the shot after being caught in the middle of an ambush while accompanying marines on patrol, said it had acted only after a "period of reflection" and argued that the picture illustrated the sacrifice and the bravery of those fighting in Afghanistan. "We feel it is our journalistic duty to show the reality of the war there, however unpleasant and brutal that sometimes is," said Santiago Lyon, the director of photography for AP.

The row reflects rising tensions over the impact of the death toll on an already wavering American public, with support for the war dwindling and President Barack Obama warned this weekend by leading Democrats that any attempt to send more troops is likely to meet resistance in Congress.

It also recalls the controversy four years ago when the Pentagon finally released pictures of flag-draped coffins returning from Iraq, overturning a ban imposed in 1991 on the US media photographing military caskets in transit.

In that case, the concerns of families were also repeatedly cited as justification for suppressing images of the dead, and they were only published after a freedom of information request by a professor of journalism, who argued that they were a matter of public record. By contrast, the British media has regularly covered the return of coffins.

In extracts from her journal published by the US website huffingtonpost.com, Jacobson described the moment when she watched a marine lose his life "for the second time in my life". "He was hit with the RPG which blew off one of his legs and badly mangled the other... I hadn't seen it happen, just heard the explosion." She described how she heard Bernard calling out that he could not breathe, and his friends telling him he was going to make it.

About 20 American newspapers and some websites used the image, sent out alongside photographs of Bernard's life in uniform and his memorial service, last week, but it was taken on 14 August when Bernard's patrol in the village of Dahaneh was ambushed. He was airlifted to the US base at Camp Leatherneck but died there of his wounds, the 19th American to lose his life in Helmand that month at the height of the fighting.

AP said the images had been shown to his family in advance, but said that reporters had not specifically asked the family's permission to publish, admitting that his parents had not wanted the photographs to be used.

The son of a retired marine, Bernard, from New Portland in rural Maine, was described as a devout Christian, an Iraq war veteran, a keen snowboarder and an avid hiker. His father, John, described him as a "humble, shy, unassuming" man who did not smoke or drink and whose main friends were from his church group. Three weeks before Joshua died, Bernard Snr had written to his congressman expressing frustration at what he said was a change in the rules of engagement to spare civilians, calling the move "disgraceful, immoral and fatal" to American forces in combat.

Asked to sum up his son, John Bernard suggested the words "service and personal honour".

But as America continues to debate the use of his image, Joshua Bernard has now come to symbolise something more: the suffering inflicted on America's sons and daughters in uniform, and the unease of fellow citizens forced to confront the grim truth about their deaths.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/06/dying-marine-fury-america-afghanistan

[accuracy]

MORE pics here.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23430.htm

[cpfc12]

That is tragic, sorts of put into prespective when everyone is asking about the cost of the war in terms of troops being deployed etc, when all you need to know, is that someones son or daughter is being killed

[deadskinball]

Fuck with the bull and you'll get the horn.

-

No sympathy.

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[devanshoom]

Fuck with the bull and you'll get the horn.

-

No sympathy.

-

totally agree...shouldnt have been there and shouldnt have joined the fucking army in the first place.

[phildee3]

The sickest thing about this story is that the picture is nowhere near as graphic as the images we see every day of dead and wounded Afghans, Palestinians and Iraqi civilians.
The underlying message is that the lives of these active servicemen is of value while those of innocent victims whose country they are invading are not.

That is what is discraceful, not the publication of this photo.

[manxboz]

Well i don't see the big uproar, yes the war is wrong i agree there but they are soldiers and it's their job. My Dad was a soldier and many other family members were, they knew that if you got shot and killed it was all part of the job, now all soldiers do is sue the government, bloody pathetic i say. They all need to grow a pair, if they aren't willing to get shot at and wounded or killed then don't join the army.

[bobbydiva]

Well i don't see the big uproar, yes the war is wrong i agree there but they are soldiers and it's their job. My Dad was a soldier and many other family members were, they knew that if you got shot and killed it was all part of the job, now all soldiers do is sue the government, bloody pathetic i say. They all need to grow a pair, if they aren't willing to get shot at and wounded or killed then don't join the army.

I think it should be more "If you don't understand the true geo-political climate and the real reason we are at war, don't join the army".

[rowan22]

I suppose no one has considered the fact that many if not most who join the forces do so because they have little other opportunity besides joining the forces.

I don’t agree with the war, its a pretext for pillaging the oil and giving the Neo Cons a justification for destroying any hope of our questioning why 95% of the worlds wealth is owned by five percent of its population.

I feel deep sorrow for this poor young lad and his family. Another needless casualty of corruption and greed.

[themime]

He was another victim of the system just as much as any Afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a Saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep, the pledge his teacher made him repeat every morning before lessons, his sense of duty to a country which betrayed him, all this made him into the man dying in that picture. He didn't have a chance.

This story makes me want to say...

His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard...

[marpat]

The sickest thing about this story is that the picture is nowhere near as graphic as the images we see every day of dead and wounded Afghans, Palestinians and Iraqi civilians.
The underlying message is that the lives of these active servicemen is of value while those of innocent victims whose country they are invading are not.

That is what is discraceful, not the publication of this photo.

You speak as if all of the civilian causalties are caused by western troops. Dont you realise that the insurgents in those places are quite indiscriminate with their weapons and methods of attack and that they think its just Allahs will if people are killed by their actions?

People in this forum are happy to post pictures of dead civilians but this does not show how they were killed or by whom. I am sure that if it was the result of an insurgent suicide bomb that they would try and say that its just propoganda, as if the insurgents are nice people just trying to save their countries.

[marpat]

totally agree...shouldnt have been there and shouldnt have joined the fucking army in the first place.

Wow, you people are full of infinte love.

[jakemaverick]

You speak as if all of the civilian causalties are caused by western troops. Dont you realise that the insurgents in those places are quite indiscriminate with their weapons and methods of attack and that they think its just Allahs will if people are killed by their actions?

People in this forum are happy to post pictures of dead civilians but this does not show how they were killed or by whom. I am sure that if it was the result of an insurgent suicide bomb that they would try and say that its just propoganda, as if the insurgents are nice people just trying to save their countries.

insurgants have very primitive weapons, so it stands to reason they are more indiscriminate than the more high tech ones. they also defending themselves/ fighting back.

western weapons can be much better precisely targeted, but they choose to drop bombs in civilians. sometimes, just because they can. sometimes because it is considered more cost efefctive. sometimes because it is considered a better option than putting their own lives at risk.

chemical weapons prime example. saddam condemned for gassing the kurds. but barely a wisper when americans used chemical weapons in faluujah.....the war was officially over by that point, so how the hell can u justify that? radioative bullets?
all those thermo baric bombs down holes? ridiculously expensive! but the official casualty count is always zero (coz they incinerate EVERYTHING) so why keep using them? especially with the credit munch going on? where do you think all the civilians go when the bombs start falling?

+ a whole heap of other shit we can only speculate at....

[tb303]

Wow, you people are full of infinte love.

Wow, and you're just full of infinite shit.

[themime]

Wow, and you're just full of infinite shit.

Not wanting to step on any private arguments here but why this response?

[rowan22]

He was another victim of the system just as much as any Afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a Saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep, the pledge his teacher made him repeat every morning before lessons, his sense of duty to a country which betrayed him, all this made him into the man dying in that picture. He didn't have a chance.

This story makes me want to say...

His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard...

Excellent points my friend and Thankyou for reminding people of this (persons) name.

[geezer661]

I love how people think the pentagon care about tht soilder, they dont give a shit about the siolder in the picture. They just care about how it will effect the pro war opnion back home. People see pictures in the MSM of dead US soilders everyday they will soon want the troops out

[marpat]

insurgants have very primitive weapons, so it stands to reason they are more indiscriminate than the more high tech ones. they also defending themselves/ fighting back.

western weapons can be much better precisely targeted, but they choose to drop bombs in civilians. sometimes, just because they can. sometimes because it is considered more cost efefctive. sometimes because it is considered a better option than putting their own lives at risk.

chemical weapons prime example. saddam condemned for gassing the kurds. but barely a wisper when americans used chemical weapons in faluujah.....the war was officially over by that point, so how the hell can u justify that? radioative bullets?
all those thermo baric bombs down holes? ridiculously expensive! but the official casualty count is always zero (coz they incinerate EVERYTHING) so why keep using them? especially with the credit munch going on? where do you think all the civilians go when the bombs start falling?

+ a whole heap of other shit we can only speculate at....

Well actually they are not that primitive. They dont have access to the same technology the west does but they are not primitive. Did you know they have access to hand held SAM missiles? hardly a cavemans tool. Even if they have primitive weapons does that justify their indiscriminate use of them? it does not. Are you saying its OK for them to fire a barrage of missile roughly in the direction of troops who may be near to civilians? that appears to be what you are saying.

Defending themselves? so when the west have gone and the taliban return to ruling Afghanistan with an iron fist then will you think that is a good thing? dont forget that a lot of the insurgents are as foreign to those countries as the western troops are so it is not like they are fighting for their freedom.

All you are doing is peddling anti western propoganda. A lot of the material people get in this forum come from pro-arabic websites so its hardly going to be impartial. If thw est wanted to target civilians there would be a lot more dead out there. A single aircraft could probably destroy and entire village so dont give me that crap about targeting civilians when most of the civilian casualties are caused by the insurgents with their 'spray and pray' methods.

[marpat]

I love how people think the pentagon care about tht soilder, they dont give a shit about the siolder in the picture. They just care about how it will effect the pro war opnion back home. People see pictures in the MSM of dead US soilders everyday they will soon want the troops out

I am sure some politicians care especially as some have kids actually serving in such places. Some politicians are actually ex soldiers themselves and so have an empathy with them. The ones who dont care are those who have never had to suffer or fight, just lie and scheme.

[tb303]

Not wanting to step on any private arguments here but why this response?

:rolleyes:

You speak as if all of the civilian causalties are caused by western troops. Dont you realise that the insurgents in those places are quite indiscriminate with their weapons and methods of attack and that they think its just Allahs will if people are killed by their actions?

People in this forum are happy to post pictures of dead civilians but this does not show how they were killed or by whom. I am sure that if it was the result of an insurgent suicide bomb that they would try and say that its just propoganda, as if the insurgents are nice people just trying to save their countries.

[themime]

:rolleyes:

Umm ok....:confused:

[phildee3]

You speak as if all of the civilian causalties are caused by western troops. Dont you realise that the insurgents in those places are quite indiscriminate with their weapons and methods of attack...



Yes I'm sure they do stage as many false flag attacks as the US does.

War sucks!

[deem]

He had a choice, little Afghan kids dont. Karma.

[rowan22]

He had a choice, little Afghan kids dont. Karma.

Yep and two wrongs dont make a right.

[astrochicken]

I suppose no one has considered the fact that many if not most who join the forces do so because they have little other opportunity besides joining the forces.


It's amazing the doors that education opens.

[themime]

It's amazing the doors that education opens.

Quite so and even though it may have been an unintended side effect of the invasion a generation of Afghan girls now have that chance.

[exmicrochipmafia]

He had a choice, little Afghan kids dont. Karma.

God, comments like this make me sick. He's a dying human being in pain. Whether he's a soldier or not, it shouldn't make a difference in how he's looked at.

All the anti-soldier sentiments that run through this forum sicken me profoundly. It's like the line from Orwell's Animal Farm...'All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'

Sad sad sad.

[rowan22]

It's amazing the doors that education opens.

And amazing the doors it closes. Education should be about teaching people how to think, not what to think.

[marpat]

Yes I'm sure they do stage as many false flag attacks as the US does.

War sucks!

Again this is purely an anti western speculation. I notice how nobody even mentions the nasty things the insurgents do or how often they try to make excuses for them by saying its really the US or Israel. How can it be so one sided?

It seems many who claim to be awakened are blinded by their own consiracy theories

[astrochicken]

It's amazing the doors that education opens.

And amazing the doors it closes. Education should be about teaching people how to think, not what to think.



Sure, but i'd rather *wake up* to find out that i'd been lied to, than
lie dead in an afghani poppy field for want of better economic options.

[clachan]

He was another victim of the system just as much as any Afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a Saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep, the pledge his teacher made him repeat every morning before lessons, his sense of duty to a country which betrayed him, all this made him into the man dying in that picture. He didn't have a chance.

This story makes me want to say...

His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard...


Yes.....poor kid.....many young lads have no other decent option.

My nephew has just gone off to Afghanistan,he could find no other job...its army or dole for him...he,s 22.

[lost_in_translation]

I cant begin to imagine the pain that his family is feeling.. After being deployed to Iraq in 2003 I witnessed the passing of a few soldiers and i say to all those in here who are programed to hate soldiers...... hate is something the ones in charge use to guide us. there is no place for it around here...... I know war is not good" after witnessing it first hand" ...I know he made a choice... I know many feel he deserved it.... If the kind of world you want to live in includes prejudging others and hate then leave me here to the wolves. Im not going to trade one shitty life for another.. enlightened ones. Yea more like a little night light in a big room... get off the computer for a little bit and live life..

[sorath]

he was another victim of the system just as much as any afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep, the pledge his teacher made him repeat every morning before lessons, his sense of duty to a country which betrayed him, all this made him into the man dying in that picture. He didn't have a chance.

This story makes me want to say...

His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard. His name is joshua bernard...

+1

:)

[rowan22]

Sure, but i'd rather *wake up* to find out that i'd been lied to, than
lie dead in an afghani poppy field for want of better economic options.


I could say if we had a government who told us what to do at every turn...but they do. I could say if we had a government which made laws that only apply to the poor people....but they do. I could say that if we faced a constant and obvious erosion of all notions of redress in relation to state authority...but we do we would fight and resist and know our enemy was planning our enslavement.

All the IS HAPPENING and for most it goes unnoticed. So I say in the last analysis would I prefer to have some dead in the streets and risk being one of those dead if it meant I could die on my feet instead of being made to barely live on my knees, all drama aside I would say a wholehearted yes.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure".

[vetis]

He was another victim of the system just as much as any Afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a Saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep

shut up. really. the effects of movies, games and other things have been crapped on too many times for people to still believe they still have influence. if this was the case everyone who grew up at the same time would be the same. those have nothing to do with life choices.

[astrochicken]

I could say if we had a government who told us what to do at every turn...but they do. I could say if we had a government which made laws that only apply to the poor people....but they do. I could say that if we faced a constant and obvious erosion of all notions of redress in relation to state authority...but we do we would fight and resist and know our enemy was planning our enslavement.

All the IS HAPPENING and for most it goes unnoticed. So I say in the last analysis would I prefer to have some dead in the streets and risk being one of those dead if it meant I could die on my feet instead of being made to barely live on my knees, all drama aside I would say a wholehearted yes.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure".



WTF does that have to do with anything?

What you wrote might apply to do some poor wee guy called Achmet Bulbul or Mohammed Fuckknows
fighting on the very same street he and his family were born and live in.

"Joshua Bernhard" didn't die on the streets of Washington or London fighting for his freedom though did he?

[themime]

shut up. really. the effects of movies, games and other things have been crapped on too many times for people to still believe they still have influence. if this was the case everyone who grew up at the same time would be the same. those have nothing to do with life choices.

How does telling someone on an internet forum to "shut up" work?

I'm not saying that you aren't free to express your opinion, because that would be pointless and controlling but what I am saying is that the system uses different environments to the same ends, namely that it conditions the world's population to fight against itself under different flags and banners. So a kid in the US might grow up to carry a M16 while a kid in Iraq would grow up to carry a AK-47 there's no difference to tptb, different ideology, same result.

The only answer would be to dismantle the entire system.

[armoured_amazon]

I feel deep sorrow for this poor young lad and his family. Another needless casualty of corruption and greed.

+1

[rowan22]

WTF does that have to do with anything?

What you wrote might apply to do some poor wee guy called Achmet Bulbul or Mohammed Fuckknows
fighting on the very same street he and his family were born and live in.

"Joshua Bernhard" didn't die on the streets of Washington or London fighting for his freedom though did he?

It has everything to do with the populations of America, Britain, Afghanistan, Iraq in fact every country on the planet that wars can be fought and innocents murdered because our politicians are so corrupt that they no longer value human life.

Perhaps the next time you start throwing expletives around you might want to engage a little thing called comprehension first. Or do you think that the wars are being fought because we have a generation of well informed and politically active citizens?

How we are controlled and manipulated has a direct correlation to what can be done in the name of our ethical positions.

The fact that Joshua Bernhard and all the other Joshua Bernhards to come went to war with a belief in the patriotic right of their cause is precisely the point.

We are indoctrinated to believe that the red, white and blue is always just always right, and many still believe this.

So to reiterate, to stop the war stop the programming that accedes to the war being fought in the name of “liberty” and fight for the reality of freedom not the sound bite.

[entrangermercenary]

How does telling someone on an internet forum to "shut up" work?

I'm not saying that you aren't free to express your opinion, because that would be pointless and controlling but what I am saying is that the system uses different environments to the same ends, namely that it conditions the world's population to fight against itself under different flags and banners. So a kid in the US might grow up to carry a M16 while a kid in Iraq would grow up to carry a AK-47 there's no difference to tptb, different ideology, same result.

The only answer would be to dismantle the entire system.

Well you nearly got it right :) A kid in the US may grow up to carry an M16, but a KID in Iraq may well have grown up holding an ak47/74

[themime]

Well you nearly got it right :) A kid in the US may grow up to carry an M16, but a KID in Iraq may well have grown up holding an ak47/74

True.:)

I guess another analogy may be that it's a game of naught's and crosses...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo

How about a nice game of chess?

[jakemaverick]

I cant begin to imagine the pain that his family is feeling.. After being deployed to Iraq in 2003 I witnessed the passing of a few soldiers and i say to all those in here who are programed to hate soldiers...... hate is something the ones in charge use to guide us. there is no place for it around here...... I know war is not good" after witnessing it first hand" ...I know he made a choice... I know many feel he deserved it.... If the kind of world you want to live in includes prejudging others and hate then leave me here to the wolves. Im not going to trade one shitty life for another.. enlightened ones. Yea more like a little night light in a big room... get off the computer for a little bit and live life..

nice post and i appreciate the sentiment....

but trying clciking the link in my sig. when your OWN state does that to you what else have you got left? to keep you warm at night?

and the 'other side' has already suffered far more than i ever did......if all my friends and everybody i ever knew was obliterated in a cruise missile attack back in '98.....well, lets just say i may well have been one of those learning to fly planes (again, I used to be RAF for a short time...)

Is that still legal? believe it might be called 'justifying terrorism' now/ having an opinion....but can't help thinking! maybe i'll get away with it because i'm white....but it didn't stop them last time!

and whatever happened to cheering for the underdog? what is it to be british these days?

[rowan22]

nice post and i appreciate the sentiment....

but trying clciking the link in my sig. when your OWN state does that to you what else have you got left? to keep you warm at night?

and the 'other side' has already suffered far more than i ever did......if all my friends and everybody i ever knew was obliterated in a cruise missile attack back in '98.....well, lets just say i may well have been one of those learning to fly planes (again, I used to be RAF for a short time...)

Is that still legal? believe it might be called 'justifying terrorism' now/ having an opinion....but can't help thinking! maybe i'll get away with it because i'm white....but it didn't stop them last time!

and whatever happened to cheering for the underdog? what is it to be british these days?


Good point Jake. Yes it's no longer "fashionable" to cheer for the underdog because the underdog is now a "looser" who you should revile for his cheap trainers and his lack of bling!

They really have infected the British whith the same sickness of the soul that materialism always does. Just an incrimental slide towards the right wing which blames the ones with least control in their lives to take the most responsibility.

Even before the ink was dry on the "merchant bankers" bonuses the benefits agency were running a new stream of adds about benefit fraud!

And of course because we have been suitably prepped to hate the vulnerable everyone cheers and says yeah scumbags in council house with five kids lets boot them round. They can be paraded by the good villagers with their torches while the robber barons chuckle behind their blue lines of storm troopers.

[rowan22]

Just as an addendum to the last post. The government are at the moment enacting changes in the registration of Psychotherapists. The current situation allows counsellors with several years of experience in Humanistic Psychotherapy to be called a Psychotherapist. The changes involve the withdrawal of that title for all counsellors who do not subscribe to the medical model of "disease diagnosis". Basically unless you are willing to view normal emotional processes which correlate with events as "abhorrent" you will not be accorded the status of Psychotherapist.

This is an obvious and cynical move to put the health system in the pocket of a government whose only interest is the repression of people working through emotional difficulties. Either by Pharmacological means or with cognitive behavioural therapies which rationalise emotional problems into the most banal and simplistically callous “solutions”.

Once they can treat a "disease" and not a person they can ignore the environmental causes of the distress and create a business which supplies the tranquilises that destroy the will to resist. Thirty six million prescriptions for anti depressants were issued in the U.K last year....thirty six million!

The solution to mental health is simple. Treat people like human beings and they recover. Enable them with positive attachments to other emotionally literate human beings. Not disable them with drugs and the forensic stare of a mental health worker who has completed a six month course in C.B.T and is now sat across from you with a checklist of tick boxes to decide if you are in need of any further enforced "correction".

[jakemaverick]

rowan, gd post...but did u click my sig?

[rowan22]

rowan, gd post...but did u click my sig?

P.M. you jake.

[innerlight]

Just as an addendum to the last post. The government are at the moment enacting changes in the registration of Psychotherapists. The current situation allows counsellors with several years of experience in Humanistic Psychotherapy to be called a Psychotherapist. The changes involve the withdrawal of that title for all counsellors who do not subscribe to the medical model of "disease diagnosis". Basically unless you are willing to view normal emotional processes which correlate with events as "abhorrent" you will not be accorded the status of Psychotherapist.

This is an obvious and cynical move to put the health system in the pocket of a government whose only interest is the repression of people working through emotional difficulties. Either by Pharmacological means or with cognitive behavioural therapies which rationalise emotional problems into the most banal and simplistically callous “solutions”.

Once they can treat a "disease" and not a person they can ignore the environmental causes of the distress and create a business which supplies the tranquilises that destroy the will to resist. Thirty six million prescriptions for anti depressants were issued in the U.K last year....thirty six million!

The solution to mental health is simple. Treat people like human beings and they recover. Enable them with positive attachments to other emotionally literate human beings. Not disable them with drugs and the forensic stare of a mental health worker who has completed a six month course in C.B.T and is now sat across from you with a checklist of tick boxes to decide if you are in need of any further enforced "correction".

i was trapped in this phsyco-illogical spiral for the longest of times. a good 11 years in fact. Many good souls along the way helped me towards the light, mostly an ex girlfriend who is German by birth. She used to tell me all time how German doctors, when writing a scrip for depression meds, ALMOST ALWAYS inform the patient that the meds are only temporary (unlike the dogma preached in the States, where u need the meds FOR LIFE of course ) and the real work lies inside one's own mind/spirit. Don't even get me started on the inside of "mental hospitals"....don't get me wrong, there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of good doctors/nurses who truly care and are mother hen figures, but for the most part it is just a cycle of rinse/wash/get dirty again so we can make more cash......

THANK YOU for posting this post, and for offering up the numbers from the UK...I would dare say the US numbers for the depression meds are triple the UK, or even worse..........

[blackster]

He was another victim of the system just as much as any Afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a Saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep, the pledge his teacher made him repeat every morning before lessons, his sense of duty to a country which betrayed him, all this made him into the man dying in that picture. He didn't have a chance.

This story makes me want to say...

His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard...


Very well said my friend, any life lost be it allied forces or civilian is a great loss in these illegal wars.

RIP Joshua Bernard and also all the other fallen allied soldiers and the so called enemy and RIP all the civilians too.

[geezer661]

ermmmm last time i looked i didnt see an afghan child with a gun and in someone elses country uninvited. So get fuckin real its not the same. Fuck tht cannon fodder cattle!

[fuggles]

the man in the first post by the op died from an rpg being fired at him

only an army as unethical as the taliban would fire an rpg at an inidividual soldier

[blackster]

ermmmm last time i looked i didnt see an afghan child with a gun and in someone elses country uninvited. So get fuckin real its not the same. Fuck tht cannon fodder cattle!



You sound very enlightened :rolleyes:

[geezer661]

You sound very enlightened :rolleyes:

yes thanks

[geezer661]

the man in the first post by the op died from an rpg being fired at him

only an army as unethical as the taliban would fire an rpg at an inidividual soldier

as opposed to the very ethical american army?

[innerlight]

He was another victim of the system just as much as any Afghan child killed in this charade. His whole life led up to this point, the cartoons he watched on a Saturday morning as a kid, the comic books he read by torch light underneath his bed covers while his parents thought he was asleep, the pledge his teacher made him repeat every morning before lessons, his sense of duty to a country which betrayed him, all this made him into the man dying in that picture. He didn't have a chance.

This story makes me want to say...

His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard. His name is Joshua Bernard...

thank you for posting this Sir. you have summed it up better than I ever could....his name is Joshua Bernard, citizen of the universe, one who cries tears, one who laughs at jokes, one who had so many dreams, and sacrificed his own life b/c he believed he was defending the dreams of others....

RIP Joshua.....

[ectocooler hic]

totally agree...shouldnt have been there and shouldnt have joined the fucking army in the first place.

You can't honestly feel that way. Some join because they are stupid, some have no place in life and are troubled and do it to be apart of something...also troubled/stupid and misled. Then those that love killing people and it just a way to feed their sick desire to take part in this. But there also those that are simply fooled into thinking they are only fighting savages, you forget...the plan IS DEVELOPED so that it is meant to WORK. Perfectly decent people in every other aspect in their life are fighting who they have been led to. And let's not act like on the other side of the coin that there aren't some heartless savages being killed that wouldn't be pricks to their own family and people with or without political manipulation. Nothing is black and white, every little piece of any puzzle is a unique case. Not every soldier is bombing/shooting children or battling anybody other than other soldiers who may or may not be "terroristic" in their mind set and who may simply be defending themselves. It's such a complex detailed situation with many different fibers to it.

[marpat]

ermmmm last time i looked i didnt see an afghan child with a gun and in someone elses country uninvited. So get fuckin real its not the same. Fuck tht cannon fodder cattle!

So when armed Afghans and Pakistanis are crossing each others borders then who is right to have weapons? if an Afghan goes across to Pakistan with his weapons then he is an armed intruder in that country and likewise for any Pakistani fighters going the other way.

[marpat]

totally agree...shouldnt have been there and shouldnt have joined the fucking army in the first place.

Well he didnt join the army, he was a marine.

[octopusrex]

LOOK AT THE MAP.

Where is Afghanistan? Who are these WHITE marines fighting?

CHINAMEN!

FUCK THIS WAR AND FUCK THIS PROPAGANDA.

I might be white. But I recognize the map.

[marpat]

LOOK AT THE MAP.

Where is Afghanistan? Who are these WHITE marines fighting?

CHINAMEN!

FUCK THIS WAR AND FUCK THIS PROPAGANDA.

I might be white. But I recognize the map.

So being white over there is bad but Afghans and Pakistanis wandering over each others borders while heavily armed is ok?

[geezer661]

So when armed Afghans and Pakistanis are crossing each others borders then who is right to have weapons? if an Afghan goes across to Pakistan with his weapons then he is an armed intruder in that country and likewise for any Pakistani fighters going the other way.

Well in the northern part it's not afghani and pakistani ppl it's based on tribes and if they want to walk around heavily armed thts their right to do so. An intruder is someone uninvited the tribes who wander over the Borders are quite welcome. Why do yanks turn in to wet lettuce leaves when they see a dead American soldier? I doubt yr reaction would be the same if you saw a dying afghan fighter. Just stick to yr fox news broadcasts old chap.

[phildee3]

Why do yanks turn in to wet lettuce leaves when they see a dead American soldier?



Extreme ethocenricity.
The Brits are just as bad as the Yanks in this respect. If not - worse!

That's why this bigoted culture must collapse. There's no place for it in the twenty-first century.

[marpat]

Well in the northern part it's not afghani and pakistani ppl it's based on tribes and if they want to walk around heavily armed thts their right to do so. An intruder is someone uninvited the tribes who wander over the Borders are quite welcome. Why do yanks turn in to wet lettuce leaves when they see a dead American soldier? I doubt yr reaction would be the same if you saw a dying afghan fighter. Just stick to yr fox news broadcasts old chap.

There must still be a border there whether tribes are running the area or not. So its there right to cross into another country well armed? that is what you are basically saying. I am sure an armed Afghan would be considered an intruder by the Pakisatani government for crossing their border.

Are you saying that Americans should not be allowed to feel sorrow for fallen friends? that means you want them to be emotionless

[marpat]

Extreme ethocenricity.
The Brits are just as bad as the Yanks in this respect. If not - worse!

That's why this bigoted culture must collapse. There's no place for it in the twenty-first century.

It is nothing to do with nationality. Such things are done by all people when they see their own people die. Do you think Afghans just shrug their shoulders and accept it? you only have to see the way muslims wail with that incredibly annoying noise to see that they do the same thing.

Bigtotted culture must collapse? I hope you include people who want to impose sharia law in that bracket as well. The taliban are bigotted fuckers, they destroyed to immense buddhist icons that were carved into cliffs in Afghanistan because Islam comsidered them idols.

[geezer661]

There must still be a border there whether tribes are running the area or not. So its there right to cross into another country well armed? that is what you are basically saying. I am sure an armed Afghan would be considered an intruder by the Pakisatani government for crossing their border.

Are you saying that Americans should not be allowed to feel sorrow for fallen friends? that means you want them to be emotionless

Yes but yr not his friend yr just took in by the fox news pictures of his funeral and the sad music in the back ground and the overuse of the word hero.

[geezer661]

Extreme ethocenricity.
The Brits are just as bad as the Yanks in this respect. If not - worse!

That's why this bigoted culture must collapse. There's no place for it in the twenty-first century.

I never said they weren't and your statements contradict each other u say bigotry must end but yr fucking first statement was a bigoted comment.

[marpat]

Yes but yr not his friend yr just took in by the fox news pictures of his funeral and the sad music in the back ground and the overuse of the word hero.

But I am not crying for him either. Risks of the job as far as I am concerned

[phildee3]

It is nothing to do with nationality.



Agreed. I never said it did.
It's to do with ethnography (ie culture).



Such things are done by all people when they see their own people die. Do you think Afghans just shrug their shoulders and accept it?



No way!
But I think they tend to value our lives more than we value theirs (non-combatants, that is).

Oh shit - I just remembered - they did 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, etc. didn't they?
Okay - I'm wrong.

[marpat]

Agreed. I never said it did.
It's to do with ethnography (ie culture).



No way!
But I think they tend to value our lives more than we value theirs (non-combatants, that is).

Oh shit - I just remembered - they did 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, etc. didn't they?
Okay - I'm wrong.

You presume they value our live you mean. They certainly dont mind killing people for transgressing religious laws, never mind what they think of the 'infidel'

Before Afghanistan was invaded the taliban sent a suicide bomb team disguised as a news crew to kill a leader of the Northern Alliance. The blew up their equipment , which was packed with explosives, as the interview was underway. This is the sort of people they are, their leaders will send some sucker on a one way ticket to paradise while they sit back and live.

[phildee3]

Before Afghanistan was invaded the taliban sent a suicide bomb team disguised as a news crew to kill a leader of the Northern Alliance. The blew up their equipment , which was packed with explosives, as the interview was underway. This is the sort of people they are, their leaders will send some sucker on a one way ticket to paradise while they sit back and live.

I think we've changed the subject somewhat, haven't we?
This started as "Why do yanks turn in to wet lettuce leaves when they see a dead American soldier?"

I don't think this applies to leaders!

[octopusrex]

So being white over there is bad but Afghans and Pakistanis wandering over each others borders while heavily armed is ok?

India and Pakistan both have the bomb, right? If they wanted, they could end the 'small conflicts' in one BIG kaboom. It's all about Moneylenders using their money to lend to nations who are scared 'of each other' and buy more weapons. Like Mexico and the USA.

[octopusrex]

There must still be a border there whether tribes are running the area or not. So its there right to cross into another country well armed? that is what you are basically saying. I am sure an armed Afghan would be considered an intruder by the Pakisatani government for crossing their border.

Are you saying that Americans should not be allowed to feel sorrow for fallen friends? that means you want them to be emotionless

The Bloods and the Crips are heavily armed and they do tend to respect each other's borders... MOSTLY. :D

[marpat]

India and Pakistan both have the bomb, right? If they wanted, they could end the 'small conflicts' in one BIG kaboom. It's all about Moneylenders using their money to lend to nations who are scared 'of each other' and buy more weapons. Like Mexico and the USA.

My point was more about people having the right to bear arms in another persons country. People complain about the west for doing this yet Afghans have been enetering Pakistan with weapons since they were fighting the Russians. They may have tribal links but at the end of the day they have entered somebody elses country with weapons and nobody seems to have a problem with this, yet when the west goes there we hear all sorts of stuff about illegal invasions.

[lightgiver]

So being white over there is bad but Afghans and Pakistanis wandering over each others borders while heavily armed is ok?

Why have the whites always got their nose in the middle east and Africa?

[marpat]

Why have the whites always got their nose in the middle east and Africa?

Who can say, natural resources, regeneration contracts, etc. The modern world runs on things that have limited supplies, such as oil, so that nations try to secure as many resources as they can to retain their wealth and power. By projecting their presence into distant places they can make their presence felt when needed. I would have thought you would know this.

[lightgiver]

Who can say, natural resources, regeneration contracts, etc. The modern world runs on things that have limited supplies, such as oil, so that nations try to secure as many resources as they can to retain their wealth and power. By projecting their presence into distant places they can make their presence felt when needed. I would have thought you would know this.

They should not be doing it really should they.

why do you always insist on some kind of dig in every post you do,you are becoming rather tedious.

[octopusrex]

My point was more about people having the right to bear arms in another persons country. People complain about the west for doing this yet Afghans have been enetering Pakistan with weapons since they were fighting the Russians. They may have tribal links but at the end of the day they have entered somebody elses country with weapons and nobody seems to have a problem with this, yet when the west goes there we hear all sorts of stuff about illegal invasions.

Haven't you heard? It's the New World Order time. There ARE NO MORE NATIONS!:D

Only tribes.

[phildee3]

Haven't you heard? It's the New World Order time. There ARE NO MORE NATIONS!:D

Only tribes.



I wish you were right,
but the NWO = one nation/no tribes.

[geezer661]

Why have the whites always got their nose in the middle east and Africa?

Last time I checked Obama was a black man. Wht a fkin racist question
If you find questions like tht fine I'll ask one.
Why are black ppl lazy?
Are the Chinese not all over Africa grabbing their resources? Are they White ermmm no. Do all the different races in Europe and America not benefit from the resources? It's all about power not race. If there was a black empire they would be stealing ppls resources. If you want to have a dig at White ppl fuck off to yr black panther forum!

[phildee3]

Last time I checked Obama was a black man.



Better look again.
Here's his mother - Ann Durham.
http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Ann_Dunham.jpg

[geezer661]

Better look again.
Here's his mother - Ann Durham.
http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Ann_Dunham.jpg

Yes but the cattle keep bangin on the first blk president etc etc

[marpat]

They should not be doing it really should they.

why do you always insist on some kind of dig in every post you do,you are becoming rather tedious.

Its not a dig. All I said is that you should know about it. Don't forget that you were once one of those white people sticking their nose into the middle east yet you claim that you did nothing wrong.

[phildee3]

Yes but the cattle keep bangin on the first blk president etc etc

and you join them

[geezer661]

Better look again.
Here's his mother - Ann Durham.
http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Ann_Dunham.jpg

and you join them

I'm sorry I don't feed the trolls

[octopusrex]

I wish you were right,
but the NWO = one nation/no tribes.

Are there 2 New World Orders? Whut?:confused:

[octopusrex]

Why have the whites always got their nose in the middle east and Africa?

Because they have found that enslaving black and yellow people is profitable. :mad:

[octopusrex]

Better look again.
Here's his mother - Ann Durham.
http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_Ann_Dunham.jpg

Obama is one of the Goldens.
That's why we need Eugenics: to protect the endangereds. :p

[geezer661]

Because they have found that enslaving black and yellow people is profitable. :mad:

and the chinks aint doing it also?

[lightgiver]

Last time I checked Obama was a black man. Wht a fkin racist question
If you find questions like tht fine I'll ask one.
Why are black ppl lazy?
Are the Chinese not all over Africa grabbing their resources? Are they White ermmm no. Do all the different races in Europe and America not benefit from the resources? It's all about power not race. If there was a black empire they would be stealing ppls resources. If you want to have a dig at White ppl fuck off to yr black panther forum!

You reckon obama is black,funny kind of black to me .

Do you know what skin colour I am?

Because they have found that enslaving black and yellow people is profitable. :mad:

and white poor people also.

whites have been and are still subjected to slavery just has much as any other race.

[marpat]

You reckon obama is black,funny kind of black to me .

Do you know what skin colour I am?



and white poor people also.

whites have been and are still subjected to slavery just has much as any other race.

Thats were you get the term redneck

[lightgiver]

Thats were you get the term redneck

Redneck is a disparaging term that refers to a person who is stereotypically Caucasian and of lower social-economic status in the United States, particularly referring to those living in rural areas. Originally limited to the Southern United States, and then to Appalachia, the term has become widely used throughout North America.

The term has been used for different groups in different time periods. The most common American usage, that of the working class rural white Southerner, is generally believed to derive from individuals having a red neck caused by working outdoors in the sunlight over the course of their lifetime.

In the Dictionary of American Regional English, the earliest citation of the term in this context is from 1830, as "a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians of Fayetteville [North Carolina]". A citation from 1893 provides a definition as "poorer inhabitants of the rural districts...men who work in the field, as a matter of course, generally have their skin burned red by the sun, and especially is this true of the back of their necks".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

I reckon there are plenty red necks in the middle east at this moment in time.

[searching]

shit man poor kid, died for a war that wasnt his
shit they should send their own kids there:mad:

[geezer661]

shit man poor kid, died for a war that wasnt his
shit they should send their own kids there:mad:

Theres no chance in hell that they would have a rich ppls draft

[trix]

Photos like this should be shown, if we had the same media coverage experienced during Vietnam, this war would be over.

I watched a docu last night- No End In Sight- I had no idea the U.S dissolved the military in Iraq, which caused the out of work MILITARY men to become insurgents against the Americans. I thought Americans were working with Iraqi police and military. Please watch this documentary, I watched it on TV so not sure of where to find it online but it shouldnt be hard to find. We need to get the fuck out of there! The projected cost after all is said and done in Iraq is 1.8 trillion dollars.

[entrangermercenary]

:eek:Photos like this should be shown, if we had the same media coverage experienced during Vietnam, this war would be over.

I watched a docu last night- No End In Sight- I had no idea the U.S dissolved the military in Iraq, which caused the out of work MILITARY men to become insurgents against the Americans. I thought Americans were working with Iraqi police and military. Please watch this documentary, I watched it on TV so not sure of where to find it online but it shouldnt be hard to find. We need to get the fuck out of there! The projected cost after all is said and done in Iraq is 1.8 trillion dollars.

And the reason they dissolved it was they thought it was full of baathist party members.
The uk told them they made a fuck up by doing that, and they the yanks now admit they were wrong in doing so.

So they have had to retrain a small army and police force the American way :eek: