Summons to magistrate

[Mo0n5tar]

I got a letter sent to my old address which has just been delivered by my mum today from Southern Rail who are trying to take me to court, they sent out witness statements, summons, acknowledgement and notice of plea for me to fill in, statement of facts containing a claim for £105.00 prosecution costs a statement of means and a notice of plea of guilty in my absence.

Now I just filled it all in ready to plead guilty ( so i don't have to go to crawley magistrates next week and before sending it off thought twice, as they have no idea of my address why bother, the judgement will not affect me if they don't know where i live?

My initial response to this kind of thing is rip it up, or bury head in sand, or RUNNNNN.

Any legal knowledge welcome here:(

[vienna]

I got a letter sent to my old address which has just been delivered by my mum today from Southern Rail who are trying to take me to court, they sent out witness statements, summons, acknowledgement and notice of plea for me to fill in, statement of facts containing a claim for £105.00 prosecution costs a statement of means and a notice of plea of guilty in my absence.

Now I just filled it all in ready to plead guilty ( so i don't have to go to crawley magistrates next week and before sending it off thought twice, as they have no idea of my address why bother, the judgement will not affect me if they don't know where i live?

My initial response to this kind of thing is rip it up, or bury head in sand, or RUNNNNN.

Any legal knowledge welcome here:(

summons means 'imvitation' - an invitation to their place of business

what you don't do is ignore it or rip it up - a s this places you in dishonour- you conditionally accept their offer but attach conditions to it*

there's a template letter someone posted to reply with on this forum (they should have a template page on this forum :( )

anyone able to locate it??
*I conditionally accept your offer to agree that I am legal fiction 'person' your full name here and in capitals’ and that I must furnish you with details for consideration for forfeiture rendered by your company, upon proof of claim of all of the following:

1. Upon proof of claim that I am a person, and not a human being.

2. Upon proof of claim that you know what a 'person' actually is, in legal terms.

3. Upon proof of claim that you know the difference between a 'human being' and a 'person', legally speaking.

4. Upon proof of claim that you know the difference between 'legal' and a 'lawful'.

5. Upon proof of claim that I am legal fiction 'person' full name here in capitals again, being the entity to which your paperwork was addressed, and notChristain name: of theSurname family, as commonly called.

6. Upon proof of claim that the charge was the result of a lawful investigation unmarred by prejudice.

7. Upon proof of claim that I am a member of the society whose statutes and subsisting regulations you are enforcing.

8. Upon proof of claim that I showed you some sort of identification.

9 Upon proof of claim that there is a nameable society that I belong to and that the laws covered within any alleged transgressions state that they apply to me within that named society....ETC ETC.....




from burnttoast

If he doesn't want to contract he could write "Refusal for Cause without Dishonor - U.C.C. 3-501" on the doc and sent back via registered mail...if it's been less than 72 hours since presentment.

Peace

[merlincove]

A summons is not an order it is an invitation.

You can write the court, thanking them for their time and diligense in the matter and politely decline their offer to appear.

If you just ignore it then you are agreeing to whatever course of action they deem fit, you will in effect be pleading guilty and be hit with the charges and costs and a baliff will be instructed to attend to you for the £ owed, plus the baliff costs. They'll use the electoral database and or credit ref companies to find you mate.

Tho if and when they find you you can choose not to answer the door and deny their cause to contract :D

They might take your car, if you have one, though.

So whatcha in court for?

[merlincove]

summons means 'imvitation' - an invitation to their place of business

what you don't do is ignore it or rip it up - a s this places you in dishonour- you conditionally accept their offer but attach conditions to it


from burnttoast

+1 What he said ^ :D

[Mo0n5tar]

Thanks guys it's for one of those penalty fair things.

I know it isn't really on topic for the forums and I should just accept responsibility and pay, but I want to ensure this is the most sound course of action and make sure it is an even playing field, am I right that I could accept guilt but question their costs £105?

Thanks for that template Vienna not too sure whether to bring up the legal fiction angle as I am relying on the nanny state quite heavily at the mo...

[merlincove]

You could always live with it, plead guilty anmd then refuse to contract with the baliffs, you do not have to speak to them when they call at your door, and they'll only call a few times.

It may be better to retreat now with the guilty plea and play the game later with the baliff's. Beacsue as you have not contracted with them, as they are officers of the court, or acting on behalf of the court to get the £, you can argue that you do not want to play ball with them.

I'm not sure if the courts will then instruct an arresting officer to bring you before the bench for not paying a court order.

i'm sure more learned folk than that will be along to say yea or nea.

If you plead guilty then you'll get time to pay anyway. And it will be a lot less hassle.

I'm not advocating that you step into line with the system, or otherwise, but when these things move into the arena of the courts then you can move either way, in either towing their line or fighting for what you believe is right. it is better though, if you are going to fight, that you fight it from the begining with a clear understanding of the processes of law and the actions you can take.

Running away, ripping up the summons and pretending it will all go away just plays into their hands. And you don't want to do that as you lose all rights, and they will punish you for dishonouring their system.

The court room is an arena that no one likes to be in, except perhaps Robert Arthur of the Menard family who seems to take great pleasure in such lol.

You can still use that template - whether you are in the system or not, you are simply asking that they prove certain things, the onus of proof is on their shoulders, and as a human being you have an absolute right to see and validate all the facts. no matter if you are wrapped up in the state or not. Equality does not care that you are on benefits or whatever.

:D

[sorath]

They'll use the electoral database and or credit ref companies to find you mate.

Am I right in thinking that only government agencies can use this method to track debtors? Wouldn't be against the data protection act for a non government agency to obtain information about someone they are chasing?

[merlincove]

Am I right in thinking that only government agencies can use this method to track debtors? Wouldn't be against the data protection act for a non government agency to obtain information about someone they are chasing?

Yeah, maybe they use that (electoral reg) to get you for council tax evasion then?

i just thought they used it. It is odd how they can find folk who aren't part of the credit system etc.

[Mo0n5tar]

Lot's to think about Merlin lot's to think about.

Let them have the victory on this occasion. I will highlight the numerous spelling errors in all their notices when I mail them back, and that shall be my small victory, a subtle one upmanship!

[sorath]

Non government agencies use all manner of tricks to trap people who they claim owe them money. Sending cards saying they are going to visit your property, sending telegrams for you to collect by ringing a certain number and giving your details etc. They will try anything to catch up with you but basically they are fishing and have no idea. If they did then they would just send you a bill for what you owe them.

[the worm that turned]

I got a letter sent to my old address which has just been delivered by my mum today from Southern Rail who are trying to take me to court, they sent out witness statements, summons, acknowledgement and notice of plea for me to fill in, statement of facts containing a claim for £105.00 prosecution costs a statement of means and a notice of plea of guilty in my absence.

Now I just filled it all in ready to plead guilty ( so i don't have to go to crawley magistrates next week and before sending it off thought twice, as they have no idea of my address why bother, the judgement will not affect me if they don't know where i live?

My initial response to this kind of thing is rip it up, or bury head in sand, or RUNNNNN.

Any legal knowledge welcome here:(

Perhaps have a read of my thread on how to answer the person question once and for all. Could set a precedent for all in England :D

[yozhik]

I posted this on another thread, so forgive me for duplicating, but I thought this might be both highly relevant and interesting;

There is a huge misunderstanding regarding Magistrates; not just by you, but by most people.

1. Magistrates are NOT paid.
2. Magistrates are community volunteers.

Let me write that again so you have time to take that in ... magistrates are unpaid, community volunteers.

Find that hard to believe?
Let's go straight to the source;

Magistrates or JPs

Magistrates or Justices of the Peace (JPs) are volunteers from all walks of life who deal with around 95 per cent of criminal cases in England and Wales, including many of the crimes that most affect the public, such as anti-social behaviour.

You need to be able to commit at least 26 half-days per year to sit in court (employers are required by law to grant reasonable time off work for magistrates). Magistrates are not paid for their services. However, many employers allow time off with pay for magistrates. If you do suffer loss of earnings you may claim a loss allowance at a set rate. You can also claim allowances for travel and subsistence.

Magistrates can be appointed from the age of 18 and they must retire at 70. However, the Lord Chancellor will not generally appoint anyone aged 65 or over. Selection is based entirely on merit and applications are welcome from all sections of the community regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation. You don't need legal or academic qualifications to be a magistrate and full training is provided.

Source (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Becomingamagistrate/DG_071384)

How many people were aware of the fact that 95% of all criminal hearings/cases are "judged" by a volunteer with no legal or academic qualifications?


Not exactly confidence building, is it?

[the worm that turned]

I posted this on another thread, so forgive me for duplicating, but I thought this might be both highly relevant and interesting;

There is a huge misunderstanding regarding Magistrates; not just by you, but by most people.

1. Magistrates are NOT paid.
2. Magistrates are community volunteers.

Let me write that again so you have time to take that in ... magistrates are unpaid, community volunteers.

Find that hard to believe?
Let's go straight to the source;


How many people were aware of the fact that 95% of all criminal hearings/cases are "judged" by a volunteer with no legal or academic qualifications?


Not exactly confidence building, is it?

My father in law was a JP and I know for a fact that he is not aware of the PERSON situation. He is a very well educated man and even took the time to study law (I now have all his books although a bit dated ;)). He admitted to me that there are legal bods (not sure of their official title) who "assist" with the technicalities. I think they are the guys that run the show and I also think they are aware of the PERSON situation as they are lawyers (i.e. members of the secret handshake society).

Purely speculation, but I think the magistrate is used as the "honest face" of society to deal with misdemeanour's. I'm not sure if they can even deal with Common Law trials and purely deal with statute offences that carry fines and or prison sentences.

Imagine that, getting sent to prison by your father in law :D

[the moral man]

Dear Mo0n5tar
kind regards
In response to your comments.

I got a letter sent to my old address which has just been delivered by my mum today from Southern Rail who are trying to take me to court, they sent out witness statements, summons, acknowledgement and notice of plea for me to fill in, statement of facts containing a claim for £105.00 prosecution costs a statement of means and a notice of plea of guilty in my absence.

People on the DavidIcke.com forum disgust me, they support Icke merely because he is opposed to the state.
It seems that the people who contributed to this thread want to steer you away from taking responsibility for a debt that you ran up.

Now I just filled it all in ready to plead guilty ( so i don't have to go to crawley magistrates next week and before sending it off thought twice, as they have no idea of my address why bother, the judgement will not affect me if they don't know where i live?

If you get a CCJ against your name, your credit rating is busted.
Forget about taking out a mortgage or a credit card unless you are willing to pay tremendously high rates.

My initial response to this kind of thing is rip it up, or bury head in sand, or RUNNNNN.

Any legal knowledge welcome here

My advice would be to not listen to the weed smoking hippies on this forum and pay what you owe.
If someone has a debt, then they should do the honourable and sensible thing by paying it off untill it is cleared.
You seem to think that you can obtain products without paying for them because you think that you deserve it, it is time to wake up to the realities of life.
Render unto caesar what belongs to him and then get on with the rest of your life.
yours thankfully
John

[wobbler]

Notice you say magistrates court, pretty sure that's a lot more serious than county court and they don't issue ccj's either

[dolores1]

Dear Moral Man, John,

Who elected you judge and jury, you don't know what the fine was for, or any of his circumstances. Why don't you enquire before making judgements?

It is reasoning like this, that is causing the innocent, not accused of breaking any law of the land into bankruptcy.

Who is your master?

[the moral man]

Dear Friends
kind regards
I'd like to respond to the following people.
wobbler.........

Notice you say magistrates court, pretty sure that's a lot more serious than county court and they don't issue ccj's either

If someone is a debtor, they can be hit with a CCJ.
The fact is that this person should simply pay what he owes instead of running away from it.
Its attitudes like this that caused the current credit crisis.
The government is too lenient on individuals who owe money to creditors and firms.
dolores1.........

Dear Moral Man, John,

Who elected you judge and jury, you don't know what the fine was for, or any of his circumstances. Why don't you enquire before making judgements?

This guy got himself a debt, how he got it is not important, what is important is that he pays it.

It is reasoning like this, that is causing the innocent, not accused of breaking any law of the land into bankruptcy.

People who get themselves into debt are not innocent, they are usually the kind of people who spend beyond their means and then run up hefty bills that they try to run away from.

Who is your master?

I have no master on this topic, just the truth and logic on my side.
People on this forum are encouraging a debtor to shirk his responsibility to pay what he owes, which is effectively encouraging someone to steal.
That is precisely why we are in a credit crunch because the system doesn't have safeguards against people like this screwing with the system.
Everybody wants to talk about corporate corruption but never public corruption and it is a boaderline disgrace.
yours thankfully
John

[nialldabass]

People on this forum are encouraging a debtor to shirk his responsibility to pay what he owes, which is effectively encouraging someone to steal.
That is precisely why we are in a credit crunch because the system doesn't have safeguards against people like this screwing with the system.


John with all due respect, this is not what this forum is about, I agree that we need to pay our way in life, but it is not the man in the street who made all this 'fictional money' available, increasing the house prices, encouraging the use of credit cards and putting us in ever more debt,and please dont say people should not use the credit if they can not afford it as they handed it out to unemployed, school leavers, anyone going on to Uni, and what happened if you reached your limit? they increased it so you could get in ever more debt. It is the people who need the safeguards from the system.

On the case in point, reading between the lines, the debt he owes is the cost of the rail ticket, some may call that stealing, but how on earth is the fine ' what he owes '. He owes the cost of the fare.
If you think the whole freeman thread is nonesense, you dont have to be here or are you he to safeguard the moral system?

[merlincove]

John :-)

With all due respect, i hear what you are saying.

But, take a look at fmot.com and in particular pay some attention to the sections regarding money and the banking system.

Money is a huge fraud laid onto us by those who would control us. Where do you think money comes from?

Money has been invented to keep the moral man (no dissrespect intended) in slavery to a system.

Believe in money and you will believe in its value as a commodity. The value of money is put on an hours worth of sweat and toil. The charge for a parking ticket is menial, it is menial for one reason and one reason alone - to give the common man a full conception of the worth of £. If the ticket was £100 then more people would say, i can't afford that, and they would not pay. But the ticket is £35 and people give in easilly because it is 'hardly worth bothering about.'

But back on track, the OP speaks about costs amounting to £x and as such isn't reflective given the apparent 'crime'.

The truth is: money is actually worthless. It is nothing more than a promisary notice, 'i promise to pay the bearer on demand....' It is actually unlawfull to pay a debt with a debt, and yet this is how the system works. It is astounding.

The percieved value of money is given by how much value we, the consumers, give it. And the 'state' continue to levy stealth taxes upon us for one thing and another, bank charges, statutory fines, court costs, parking fines, speeding fines, wearing blue on a tuesday fines, this cost and that cost. And as such, because of the amount of taxes we pay, we have concieved a great value upon money. It is worth so much to us becaue they take it away so easilly. And this is the mind trap that the state want us to be wrapped up in, they want us to believe their lie that £ has value.

What has value is our time, this is what is precious to us. It is the most precious thing in the world. And in a way, court costs, taxes, stealth or otherwise, take our time away from us.

And that is absolutely, irrevocably wrong. Where a man or woman has not taken from another human being, or caused that human being loss or damage, how can anyone say that there is a cost to be levied?

The theft of time for the sake of what?

A train ticket? ok so pay the train company. That is fair. To add X amount onto that, to charge someones very life essence in costs is unfair.

We are the only currency, our sweat and our hours are the currency. £ / $ is just a symbol, a fictional 'name' given to toil and sweat and labour.

We create the £. Without us it would not exist. Banks don't lend money, banks are not allowed to lend the money they have in their vaults, because it isn't theirs to lend. The banks access our bond and lend to us our own money, and then charge us for doing so. And if we default then they take our property. Yet they did not give us anything, not really.

Regards

lee

[the worm that turned]

pot smoking hippies :D very judgemental Johnny Boy.

The reason we are in this mess is not because people are refusing to pay back debts!!! I think it is actually because greedy banksters are willing to lend money to anyone and everyone regardless of whether they can pay it back. Don't forget that for each (secured) loan they lend, they then have first charge on the house if they default. So fake money not collected = real house on their books.

That's assuming they haven't sold the rights to collect the money to someone else to enable them to lend more "bank made" money (via fractional reserve banking). So no real sympathy for a dead (in legal terms) legal fiction called a bank, and LOTS of sympathy for my fellow human beings who on average (in the UK) are all 40,000+ in debt!!!

[rosix]

the moral man, (you have no idea what morals are, that much is clear - you do what you've been programmed to do like a good little robot, that isn't bearing morals, quite the contrary)
the fiat monetary system in place in the USA, the UK, Canada, etc. is fundamentally flawed and a high-school mathematician could prove that to you (yes mathematical proof that the system is designed to not 'work') So go ahead playing your broken game because you've been told your whole life you have no choice.

AA,
well done to your friend. Sounds fun :)

[the moral man]

Dear Friends
kind regards
I am not pleased with the amount of disrespect that I am receiving from people on this forum thread.
Regardless of what you all say about the credit system and its injustices (who sticks a gun to your head and makes you take out credit?) it is a known fact that debtors helped to cause the credit crunch.
Debtors borrow money, both from companies and individuals, they then refuse to pay and then they keep on running.
In this nation of ours, debtors have the law on their side, when they run up a debt they go into hiding and it is hard to trace them thereafter.
Debtors cannot be traced if they are hiding due to the data protection act and therefore the lender has no rights.
Furthermore, if a debtor gets a CCJ, they are the type of people who will gladly get fifty CCJs a time and the lender (company or individual) is nowhere near to getting their money if the debtor keeps running.
However, any sensible debtor would just pay what they owe instead of running because it does their credit rating and their prospects no good.
The only good thing to come out of it is that the debtor has been stuck with a bad credit rating to the tune of thousands and is then trapped in a mess of their own making.
It seems to be a government ploy to weaken both independent businesses (lenders) and individuals (debtors) by weakening both sides through the credit system and the latter is the most weakened because he refuses to pay what he owes.
Once again, the DavidIcke.com forum members blame the companies and not the individual debtors (they are members of the "Angelic" Joe Public and eternal victims) who are likely have an unscrupulous inclination to begin with.
These debtor parasites are a disgrace to this nation and helping to bring down the nation, they should be made to be held accountable for their thievery.
yours thankfully
John

[injustice]

pot smoking hippies :D very judgemental Johnny Boy.

The reason we are in this mess is not because people are refusing to pay back debts!!! I think it is actually because greedy banksters are willing to lend money to anyone and everyone regardless of whether they can pay it back. Don't forget that for each (secured) loan they lend, they then have first charge on the house if they default. So fake money not collected = real house on their books.

That's assuming they haven't sold the rights to collect the money to someone else to enable them to lend more "bank made" money (via fractional reserve banking). So no real sympathy for a dead (in legal terms) legal fiction called a bank, and LOTS of sympathy for my fellow human beings who on average (in the UK) are all 40,000+ in debt!!!

Quite right!

[injustice]

Dear Friends
kind regards
I am not pleased with the amount of disrespect that I am receiving from people on this forum thread.
Regardless of what you all say about the credit system and its injustices (who sticks a gun to your head and makes you take out credit?) it is a known fact that debtors helped to cause the credit crunch.
Debtors borrow money, both from companies and individuals, they then refuse to pay and then they keep on running.
In this nation of ours, debtors have the law on their side, when they run up a debt they go into hiding and it is hard to trace them thereafter.
Debtors cannot be traced if they are hiding due to the data protection act and therefore the lender has no rights.
Furthermore, if a debtor gets a CCJ, they are the type of people who will gladly get fifty CCJs a time and the lender (company or individual) is nowhere near to getting their money if the debtor keeps running.
However, any sensible debtor would just pay what they owe instead of running because it does their credit rating and their prospects no good.
The only good thing to come out of it is that the debtor has been stuck with a bad credit rating to the tune of thousands and is then trapped in a mess of their own making.
It seems to be a government ploy to weaken both independent businesses (lenders) and individuals (debtors) by weakening both sides through the credit system and the latter is the most weakened because he refuses to pay what he owes.
Once again, the DavidIcke.com forum members blame the companies and not the individual debtors (they are members of the "Angelic" Joe Public and eternal victims) who are likely have an unscrupulous inclination to begin with.
These debtor parasites are a disgrace to this nation and helping to bring down the nation, they should be made to be held accountable for their thievery.
yours thankfully
John

Are you a banker or a debt collector?

[rosix]

Dear Friends
kind regards
I am not pleased with the amount of disrespect that I am receiving from people on this forum thread.
Regardless of what you all say about the credit system and its injustices (who sticks a gun to your head and makes you take out credit?) it is a known fact that debtors helped to cause the credit crunch.
Debtors borrow money, both from companies and individuals, they then refuse to pay and then they keep on running.
In this nation of ours, debtors have the law on their side, when they run up a debt they go into hiding and it is hard to trace them thereafter.
Debtors cannot be traced if they are hiding due to the data protection act and therefore the lender has no rights.
Furthermore, if a debtor gets a CCJ, they are the type of people who will gladly get fifty CCJs a time and the lender (company or individual) is nowhere near to getting their money if the debtor keeps running.
However, any sensible debtor would just pay what they owe instead of running because it does their credit rating and their prospects no good.
The only good thing to come out of it is that the debtor has been stuck with a bad credit rating to the tune of thousands and is then trapped in a mess of their own making.
It seems to be a government ploy to weaken both independent businesses (lenders) and individuals (debtors) by weakening both sides through the credit system and the latter is the most weakened because he refuses to pay what he owes.
Once again, the DavidIcke.com forum members blame the companies and not the individual debtors (they are members of the "Angelic" Joe Public and eternal victims) who are likely have an unscrupulous inclination to begin with.
These debtor parasites are a disgrace to this nation and helping to bring down the nation, they should be made to be held accountable for their thievery.
yours thankfully
John

I must admit I didn't read the whole post, I just got up to you referring to us as the debtors and then I let out a great big *sigh* because that shows your harrowing ignorance of the system.

No-one is holding guns to our head to make us 'borrow' money, quite right, this is very rarely the case in the literal sense. No-one is holding guns to the people who make the bank policies and bank market plans and saying they have to run a fundamentally flawed and FRAUDULENT business plan

you could sorta compare the situation to your senior sibling saying to you everyday from the moment of your 7th birthday that you have to play a board-game with him where you have to pay to play and the maximum you can win is what you paid in to start with - he has written down all the rules on paper and used a lot of fancy language and has even consulted other senior siblings in other families about it. This is obviously going to seem absurd to you but just think, this is what the media and almost everyone/everywhere has been doing to you with regards to statute 'laws'

I could go on for paragraphs about everything you've just said, I've said it before, Stephen Hawking has said similar (The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge), and I will say it again - the most dangerous thing to us as people and to us as a society is not the ignorant man but the man with the illusion that he is knowledgeable/learned, and that is you, sir.

[the moral man]

Are you a banker or a debt collector?

Dear injustice
kind regards
I am not a banker or a debt collector.
I am currently in contact with a debt collector to get money back that is owed to me and I know first hand how debtors try to worm their way out of paying you what they owe.
The debtors try to hide and therefore the debt collector has the task of tracing them, which is most frustrating.
A debtor cannot be issued with a summons until you get their adress, even then they could change an adress.
If a CCJ is issued against a debtor they are still not forced to pay and can evade debt collectors once again by going into hiding.
All of the while these debtors are protected by government privacy laws (data protection act) that pretty much allows them to hide.
The government are crooked, but the people are crooked also, they are two sides of the same coin.
By using the public voting system, the masses ensure that they get the chance to screw each other over by demanding privacy laws that actually allow them to commit crimes.
You and of the others that old card of "poor, persecuted Joe Public" and it is outdated.
The majority of people that you sympathise with are Minion Incarnations (animal spirits in human form) and hence these beings will pretty much do anything they can to survive.
It is the trait of animals to steal and run, it is the trait of debtors to steal and run.
I have to assume that most of these debtors are Minion Incarnations and realize that I should never lend out money again.
yours thankfully
John

[rosix]

Are you a banker or a debt collector?

he could be either but almost certainly he is a man who is too proud of the fact he has spent several, perhaps dozens, of years slaving to pay mortgages and other loans.

[the moral man]

I must admit I didn't read the whole post, I just got up to you referring to us as the debtors and then I let out a great big *sigh* because that shows your harrowing ignorance of the system.

No-one is holding guns to our head to make us 'borrow' money, quite right, this is very rarely the case in the literal sense. No-one is holding guns to the people who make the bank policies and bank market plans and saying they have to run a fundamentally flawed and FRAUDULENT business plan

you could sorta compare the situation to your senior sibling saying to you everyday from the moment of your 7th birthday that you have to play a board-game with him where you have to pay to play and the maximum you can win is what you paid in to start with - he has written down all the rules on paper and used a lot of fancy language and has even consulted other senior siblings in other families about it. This is obviously going to seem absurd to you but just think, this is what the media and almost everyone/everywhere has been doing to you with regards to statute 'laws'

I could go on for paragraphs about everything you've just said, I've said it before, Stephen Hawking has said similar (The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge), and I will say it again - the most dangerous thing to us as people and to us as a society is not the ignorant man but the man with the illusion that he is knowledgeable/learned, and that is you, sir.

Dear crybaby
kind regards
You and the people on this thread are severely irritating people, you all deserve to have buckets of custard thrown over you.
All you do is cry about the system instead of working within the system.
The society doesn't get individuals into debt in most cases, the individual gets himself into debt.
The individual buys things that he can do without in nearly all cases, look at what the individual has in comparison with what he needs and then look at his debts.
As it currently stands, I have a debt over nine grand because I have just left uni.
Now I have two options.
1. Cry and moan about system injustice.
2. Do the honourable and smart thing by finding ways to pay off the debt.
At present, I have no job, restless about seeking employment and have a financial plan whereby a big percentage of money that I earn will be used to pay off this student loan.
This is MY problem and not the problem of anyone else.
My complaining about the situation won't change it, yes it is frustratring to be stuck with a student loan debt, but I see it as a challenge to pay it off.
When I pay it off, I will be a very happy man and can get on with other things.
The mentality of people on this forum needs to change because you are all playing victim and trying to upload your problems onto the state.
We are in the Dark sector of the galaxy, the government AND the majority are corrupt.
You will have to live with that reality and work with it if you have any chance of gaining anything beneficial in this World.
yours thankfully
John

[gilly]

Please would all members post within the guidelines stickied at the start of this sub-forum, and not allow this thread to become further derailed. Thanks.

[rosix]

Dear crybaby
kind regards
You and the people on this thread are severely irritating people, you all deserve to have buckets of custard thrown over you.
All you do is cry about the system instead of working within the system.
The society doesn't get individuals into debt in most cases, the individual gets himself into debt.
The individual buys things that he can do without in nearly all cases, look at what the individual has in comparison with what he needs and then look at his debts.
As it currently stands, I have a debt over nine grand because I have just left uni.
Now I have two options.
1. Cry and moan about system injustice.
2. Do the honourable and smart thing by finding ways to pay off the debt.
At present, I have no job, restless about seeking employment and have a financial plan whereby a big percentage of money that I earn will be used to pay off this student loan.
This is MY problem and not the problem of anyone else.
My complaining about the situation won't change it, yes it is frustratring to be stuck with a student loan debt, but I see it as a challenge to pay it off.
When I pay it off, I will be a very happy man and can get on with other things.
The mentality of people on this forum needs to change because you are all playing victim and trying to upload your problems onto the state.
We are in the Dark sector of the galaxy, the government AND the majority are corrupt.
You will have to live with that reality and work with it if you have any chance of gaining anything beneficial in this World.
yours thankfully
John

uh yea almost everything mentioned in this forum is "working within the system" like you say and I haven't been whining for one second about it.

go get a clue

Please would all members post within the guidelines stickied at the start of this sub-forum, and not allow this thread to become further derailed. Thanks.

sorry but the moral man came in here and completely de-railed the thread with his ignorant trolling

[merlincove]

Dear injustice
kind regards
I am not a banker or a debt collector.
I am currently in contact with a debt collector to get money back that is owed to me and I know first hand how debtors try to worm their way out of paying you what they owe.
The debtors try to hide and therefore the debt collector has the task of tracing them, which is most frustrating.
A debtor cannot be issued with a summons until you get their adress, even then they could change an adress.
If a CCJ is issued against a debtor they are still not forced to pay and can evade debt collectors once again by going into hiding.
All of the while these debtors are protected by government privacy laws (data protection act) that pretty much allows them to hide.
The government are crooked, but the people are crooked also, they are two sides of the same coin.
By using the public voting system, the masses ensure that they get the chance to screw each other over by demanding privacy laws that actually allow them to commit crimes.
You and of the others that old card of "poor, persecuted Joe Public" and it is outdated.
The majority of people that you sympathise with are Minion Incarnations (animal spirits in human form) and hence these beings will pretty much do anything they can to survive.
It is the trait of animals to steal and run, it is the trait of debtors to steal and run.
I have to assume that most of these debtors are Minion Incarnations and realize that I should never lend out money again.
yours thankfully
John

Dear John.

You know that i enjoy reading your posts and i hope you don't feel that i was being dissrespectful.

You were very kind in pointing me in a direction some time ago that enabled me to address some concepts of belief and see things a little more clearly. Please take some time to address the concepts i mentioned in my earlier post, so as not to derail this thread i have created a new thread here:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1238798#post1238798

with exrtracts from fmotl.com to give a clearer view of the money and lending system currently affecting the freedoms of every human being on this planet.

If you don't agree with the piece, that is ok, i hope it affords some a better understanding.

I can see what you are saying and your points are very valid ones, however, when weighed against the concepts that maney is a tool for enslavement such meets with a little adversity.

Freeman concepts are about taking responsability for your Self, they are not about getting out of debt. But also, as a part of taking self responsability they are about loosening the shackles that society bind us in, and one of those chackles is to understand the concept of debt, the manifestation of it as a tool for control and the freedom from it.

But when we take into account that currency does not exist in any real sense of the word, that it is in fact us, every human being on the planet who is the currency, that a fund is created in our name by way of a bond, and we can access that bond by the simple application of a signature on a bit of paper, and further more when we consider that the bank does not lend us any of its own, or any one elses money, that a loan is simply the accesses to our bond, how does that weigh in the face of the credit crunch and percieved loan defecits?

Kind regards john

:D

[gilly]

uh yea almost everything mentioned in this forum is "working within the system" like you say and I haven't been whining for one second about it.

go get a clue



sorry but the moral man came in here and completely de-railed the thread with his ignorant trolling

And now it needs to stop.

Any further posts not relevant to the OP & in the spirit of this sub-forum's intended purpose will be deleted.

[merlincove]

Hey Gilly :D

i've created another thread to discuss the relative values of £ and debt as per my post above - if we can take the discussion there.

:D

[Mo0n5tar]

Dear Moral Man
Kind Regards

Thank you for offering your opinion on this situation, I notice you chose to only quote some of my posts in this thread, I assure you the matter will be dealt with in a strictly moral minded fashion on my behalf, but the immoral procedure and enforcement of statutes is what got me in this mess, and I cannot vouch for the moral stature of the Justice of the Peace presiding this hearing.

But I have decided to take the easy way out of this one and foot the bill, it can go on my list of bills to pay off that I barely manage at the moment.

I shall pay to Caesar what is his and offer him more besides for;

The robbed that smiles, steals something from the thief.

Kind Regards

Mo0n5tar

[Mo0n5tar]

pot smoking hippies :D very judgemental Johnny Boy.

The reason we are in this mess is not because people are refusing to pay back debts!!! I think it is actually because greedy banksters are willing to lend money to anyone and everyone regardless of whether they can pay it back. Don't forget that for each (secured) loan they lend, they then have first charge on the house if they default. So fake money not collected = real house on their books.

That's assuming they haven't sold the rights to collect the money to someone else to enable them to lend more "bank made" money (via fractional reserve banking). So no real sympathy for a dead (in legal terms) legal fiction called a bank, and LOTS of sympathy for my fellow human beings who on average (in the UK) are all 40,000+ in debt!!!

The reason I am in this mess if I may be so candid, is that I have the unfortunate situation of having no money ever, as i am unemployed, renting, paying bills and banks are usurious ba5tards, and have never had a credit card or wanted money at someone elses expense.

When sent by the government to attend Job training for 13 weeks in the next big town, I frequently had to catch the train without a ticket, for no reason other than being skint and not heartless enough to have a robbery gang or drug dealing scam going on.

Out of probably 20 or more journeys without a ticket I think one capture is a good return and tbh I've probably dodged well over £200 of fares in my time so this might even it up with them a bit.

[wez004]

I posted this on another thread, so forgive me for duplicating, but I thought this might be both highly relevant and interesting;

There is a huge misunderstanding regarding Magistrates; not just by you, but by most people.

1. Magistrates are NOT paid.
2. Magistrates are community volunteers.

Let me write that again so you have time to take that in ... magistrates are unpaid, community volunteers.

Find that hard to believe?
Let's go straight to the source;


How many people were aware of the fact that 95% of all criminal hearings/cases are "judged" by a volunteer with no legal or academic qualifications?


Not exactly confidence building, is it?

Exactly. Magistrates have no legal training. In my experience of being up before them they are very often just figure heads. These people are the semi retired Tory gin and Tonic brigade without the understanding of law to make any determination. I’m not sure there’s many magistrates that would understand the definition of a person.

The real power in the court is the clerk. The clerk has legal training and advises the magistrates on points of law and sentencing guide lines. The magistrates do as they’re told most of the time. The whole systems a complete sham.

[girlgye]

+1 What he said ^ :D

That's funny don't I recall it was you who said you have ignored all your council tax demands for the past 15 years?

[merlincove]

That's funny don't I recall it was you who said you have ignored all your council tax demands for the past 15 years?

yeah, fair cop. ;)

p'rhaps more n 15 years lol

whoops

:D

[wez004]

That's funny don't I recall it was you who said you have ignored all your council tax demands for the past 15 years?

I’m not sure what you find funny. The times I've been before the magistrates were when I was bailed to appear before them as a result of criminal charges in my youth. I’ve been involved in all manner of court cases including old style committal and trial by jury in crown court. I’ve never attended anything to do with poll tax and council tax demands.

I don’t pay council tax. I didn’t pay it when it was poll tax and I don’t pay it now. Mendip district council haven’t had 1p in the last 3 years (i've lived here for nearly 3 years previous coucil Telford and Wrekin).

All I get are nasty bailiff letters because this is all they have. You either take it on board or let it go and realise it’s you that gives it the power by letting it scare you. I get 1 letter a week. The content of the letters is pathetic, half truths, assumptions and lies. I take the John Harris route to deal with this. I put a sticker over my name and address saying NO CONTRACT return to sender and then post it back.

Here's a sample one. I've got other's I havn't delt with from when i was away in july.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/wez005/equit.jpg

[wez004]

yeah, fair cop. ;)

p'rhaps more n 15 years lol

whoops

:D

Notice of Request for Clarification

1. I do not understand this post. Please clarify what "Yes fair cop. p'rhaps more n 15 years lol
whoops" means in plain english.

Thank you

[dolores1]

Dear crybaby
kind regards
You and the people on this thread are severely irritating people, you all deserve to have buckets of custard thrown over you.
All you do is cry about the system instead of working within the system.
The society doesn't get individuals into debt in most cases, the individual gets himself into debt.
The individual buys things that he can do without in nearly all cases, look at what the individual has in comparison with what he needs and then look at his debts.
As it currently stands, I have a debt over nine grand because I have just left uni.
Now I have two options.
1. Cry and moan about system injustice.
2. Do the honourable and smart thing by finding ways to pay off the debt.
At present, I have no job, restless about seeking employment and have a financial plan whereby a big percentage of money that I earn will be used to pay off this student loan.
This is MY problem and not the problem of anyone else.
My complaining about the situation won't change it, yes it is frustratring to be stuck with a student loan debt, but I see it as a challenge to pay it off.
When I pay it off, I will be a very happy man and can get on with other things.
The mentality of people on this forum needs to change because you are all playing victim and trying to upload your problems onto the state.
We are in the Dark sector of the galaxy, the government AND the majority are corrupt.
You will have to live with that reality and work with it if you have any chance of gaining anything beneficial in this World.
yours thankfully
John


You have been sucked into the system and I hope you recognise this. Please widen your perceptions of the many threads on the site. Open your eyes and remember you don't have to remain a victim.

WHAT IS MONEY?

Our friend who started the thread also has story and I believe he is trying to handle it as best he can without going further down the rabbit hole. I wish him luck.

[merlincove]

Notice of Request for Clarification

1. I do not understand this post. Please clarify what "Yes fair cop. p'rhaps more n 15 years lol
whoops" means in plain english.

Thank you

:D

i was going to elaberate :rolleyes:

One time, many many years ago i recieved a letter for what was then the poll tax, this was back in the day, obviously: i'd moved out from my parents and into the big wide world. I didn't like the idea of paying poll tax. So i ignored it, i threw the letter away. And i continued to throw all the letters away.

One time i even got a refund, for £110! Even though i had never made a single payment. I cashed the cheque lol.

Ive continued to ignore and throw the letters away, usually unopened.

Over the last 12 months or so i've come to get a feel of the freeman things. i can fully understand the concept of conditional acceptance as a better lawful stance than acquiessense / ignoring and throwing away!

Hense the wee rejoinder from gg about my coments 'what he said' in response to 'never ignore them as you are entering into disshonour' etc :D as i agreed that it is best not to ignore the letters even tho i have been doing for over 15years lol

Altho, as you have mentioned, ignoring the mails, sending them back with no wish to contract on works, which i can vouch for with over 15 yrears worth of acquiessence on my part of their notices. However even tho i may vouch, it would be wrong of me to say here is a proven method, go do it. Proof of claim and conditional acceptance is the way to go, i fully believe. Of course back in the day, and till only 12 months ago i didn't know of these methods.

Outside the council tax arena, acquiessense is not the best way of dealing with court letters etc, i shouldn't think - it has the possability of landing you in hot water. But as we know, in respect of council tax bills, they have no contract that will hold up in any court. Parking fines and other statutory fines are in the same boat, i guess.

Peace.

[stickwhistler]

You might want to look at this womans struggle re council tax.
http://www.namastepublishing.co.uk/Elisabeth%20Beckett%20-%20News%20Black%20Out.htm

TPTB are not interested in contracts, or justice, only compliance and obedience.

[Mo0n5tar]

These are all great posts thanks very muchly.

Merlin, it just seems wrong to me to have to continually pay through the nose to these companies, corporations and governments for the privileges of living in society, for me the cons of society outweigh the pros, so I know you are not the only one who deals with the dreaded council tax in this way.

Proof of claim and conditional acceptance is the way to go, i fully believe.

There are stories all over the net of people using this method to avoid unlawful charges against them, also requesting proper bills of exchange is tried, I might try this when I get my first council tax bills, writing back to them I conditionally accept this bill upon proof of claim .....

And if one is parting with money I think the proper Bills of Exchange deals with them showing where your money is going, for instance overdraft charges of £25 for ink and the paper to notify you would never be considered lawful.

[vienna]

These are all great posts thanks very muchly.

Merlin, it just seems wrong to me to have to continually pay through the nose to these companies, corporations and governments for the privileges of living in society, for me the cons of society outweigh the pros, so I know you are not the only one who deals with the dreaded council tax in this way.



There are stories all over the net of people using this method to avoid unlawful charges against them, also requesting proper bills of exchange is tried, I might try this when I get my first council tax bills, writing back to them I conditionally accept this bill upon proof of claim .....

And if one is parting with money I think the proper Bills of Exchange deals with them showing where your money is going, for instance overdraft charges of £25 for ink and the paper to notify you would never be considered lawful.

have you seen this?

http://www.freedomrebels.co.uk/members/profile/1/blog-view/blog_4.htm

[merlincove]

These are all great posts thanks very muchly.

Merlin, it just seems wrong to me to have to continually pay through the nose to these companies, corporations and governments for the privileges of living in society, for me the cons of society outweigh the pros, so I know you are not the only one who deals with the dreaded council tax in this way.



There are stories all over the net of people using this method to avoid unlawful charges against them, also requesting proper bills of exchange is tried, I might try this when I get my first council tax bills, writing back to them I conditionally accept this bill upon proof of claim .....

And if one is parting with money I think the proper Bills of Exchange deals with them showing where your money is going, for instance overdraft charges of £25 for ink and the paper to notify you would never be considered lawful.

Absolutely. :D

And it is ironic that our comprehension of the value of £ is a direct result of all the stealth taxes like petty fines and unlawfull charges levied against us at every turn. Because the more they take it from us the more we comprehend its value...

i have no issue in not paying the council tax. I don't vote, i don't use their system. I recycle what i can and do not use their refuse collection service. I asked them to come fetch their bin as i would not be using it. I take everything i can't recycle to the privately owned tip down the road.

A portion of the CT goes to the police, I rarely have any need to call the police out and on the only occassions i've had to deal with them was in respect of my car being damaged by vandals, they knocked on my door and reported the damage to me, and did zero else cept give me a crime number.

So i have no issue in not paying it. I don't accept that i am a member of their society, their rules therefore don't apply to me. I've thought like this for many years and even before i discovered the freeman aspects of life i felt that i didn't want to be a part of a society who abused the masses with a dictatorship of You will pay the poll tax, or you will go to prison. That is blatantly unfair, isn't it?

And you are so right, bank charges, court charges, baliff charges, fines for parking 3" over a line, for leaving a bin out on the wrong day, for travelling at 3mph over the speed limit (even a fine of littering for one ol lady feeding ducks!) - fines and charges for those who are generally lawfull in their lives are crippling the will of the people of this country.

And to sidetrack a little, why are the troops coming home from Iraq, do you think? Might it be because there is an impending unrest from the tax paying masses at the state of this country and how it is being run?

And all the time they are charging us these petty little fines, the governemnt blobs are sailing around in luxury cooking their own expense accounts, lol indeed.

Rant over...... and appologies, but it does aggrivate the senses when you look to deeply into it....

But let us know how you get on with it all moonstar :D

[Mo0n5tar]

Yeah well put man, the powers that be have stamped on everybodies feet soo much they are gonna end up having it all blow up in their faces, because everyone is getting royally ripped off everyone is gonna want to opt out of this society.

I just read that Wirral council piece Vienna, amazing news also this guy Ray St Clair (interesting name hehehe) in my local district has been busy:

Sussex Man Lays Perjury Charges Against Horsham District Council & 2 Magistrates in Council Tax Fiasco
http://www.nocounciltax.com/?p=92

[injustice]

Yeah well put man, the powers that be have stamped on everybodies feet soo much they are gonna end up having it all blow up in their faces, because everyone is getting royally ripped off everyone is gonna want to opt out of this society.

I just read that Wirral council piece Vienna, amazing news also this guy Ray St Clair (interesting name hehehe) in my local district has been busy:

Sussex Man Lays Perjury Charges Against Horsham District Council & 2 Magistrates in Council Tax Fiasco
http://www.nocounciltax.com/?p=92

That is nearly the most interesting piece I have read in a long time! What happens if the LA already have a liability order?

The other article is mind blowing.

http://www.nocounciltax.com/?p=71

[tien an]

You might want to look at this womans struggle re council tax.
http://www.namastepublishing.co.uk/Elisabeth%20Beckett%20-%20News%20Black%20Out.htm

TPTB are not interested in contracts, or justice, only compliance and obedience.

Thank you, stickwhistler, for the link to the article of the year (for me).
This could be anyone's grandmother.
Bless her.

All the best,
tian an.

PS I'm not being fair...it seems Ray, of the family St.Clair, has taken up where she left off...
as you so aptly put it injustice, it's 'mindblowing'.

[dolores1]

Am I right in thinking that only government agencies can use this method to track debtors? Wouldn't be against the data protection act for a non government agency to obtain information about someone they are chasing?

Honestly,
You can buy these.:(

[iq_145]

Exactly. Magistrates have no legal training. In my experience of being up before them they are very often just figure heads. These people are the semi retired Tory gin and Tonic brigade without the understanding of law to make any determination. I’m not sure there’s many magistrates that would understand the definition of a person.

The real power in the court is the clerk. The clerk has legal training and advises the magistrates on points of law and sentencing guide lines. The magistrates do as they’re told most of the time. The whole systems a complete sham.

In England and Wales the magistrate courts are simply legalized robbery booths. When you go in there you are literally guilty until proven innocent and, because the magistrates have no clue whatsoever as to what they are doing, proving yourself innocent is as near to impossible as one can get.

In Scotland they have Sheriff Courts, presided over by a sheriff who was also a fully qualified and practising solicitor before being made a sheriff. In these, at least, one is still innocent until proven (beyond a reasonable doubt) to be guilty.

One up for the Scots! :)

[rosix]

In England and Wales the magistrate courts are simply legalized robbery booths. When you go in there you are literally guilty until proven innocent and, because the magistrates have no clue whatsoever as to what they are doing, proving yourself innocent is as near to impossible as one can get.

In Scotland they have Sheriff Courts, presided over by a sheriff who was also a fully qualified and practising solicitor before being made a sheriff. In these, at least, one is still innocent until proven (beyond a reasonable doubt) to be guilty.

One up for the Scots! :)

in any admiralty court you're guilty to the charges

[merlincove]

in any admiralty court you're guilty to the charges

The legal definition of a dock is, paraphrasing: : the place in a criminal court where a prisoner or crinminal stands during trial: the place where a vessel is moored.

Simple: you get into a dock and you are imediately classed as either a vessel / ship or a criminal. In either way the court can act upon you, and in attending your self into a dock you admit yourself to their juristiction, you abide by their laws and their language and you stand under their rule.

Do not, if you can in any way, do not get intio a dock when attending court.

if i can dig the definate Blacks definition up i'll post, unless someone else gets there first :D

[nowimgone]

Dont pay.
Do what everyone has suggested and send the request for clarification document.
If you havnt caused harm injury or loss to another individual then theres absolutly no need for you to be paying any fine, or appearing in any court.
These are your birthrights.

[merlincove]

Quotations taken from Blacks law 2nd edition.

http://www.blacks.worldfreemansociety.org/2/index.htm

Dock: n. the cage or an enclosed space in a criminal court where prisoners stand when bought in for trial.
The space in a river or harbour, enclosed between two wharves. An artificial basin in connection with a harbour used for the reception of vessels in the taking on or the discarding of their cargoes.

Person: am man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes.

A human being considered as capable of having rights and of being charged with duties: while a ‘thing’ is the object over which rights may be exercised.


You might also like to look up 'things' too, the definition is very interesting.