Ignoring the Evidence

[miracles]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.

[agneau]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65863

[fallensoul]

And of course you are perfect, and always respond with proof and evidence and never spread scorn or lies or filth.

Judge not..............

[dedicate]

There are many misconceptions. This is part of our human nature to be deceived by what we see and think.-- every person has to be on the look out for it in their own life, if you are not then you start believing everything your mind tells you is true; not putting it to the test and such.

People non-believers and believers seem to think that if there is a book which is the word of God, then we must follow this religion, or at least study it. Well maybe so, and maybe not! In other languages, instead of Word of God, we have the terms Sutra and Scripture. These are all similar,, being derived works not from men, but from the word of God. So, maybe I want to study the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. You want to believe there is only one word of God, then fine by me, but you can not show/proove that these others are not the words of God -- not if you measure with the same measure those scriptures against the ones you hold as the only truth. Not honestly, you can't. And being honest is not always something you can just announce or believe and have it be true... One can be intellectually dishonest to himself and not know it. (Like not being able to see 1 scripture as having another interpretation than the 1 you see, or being unable to understand that God can not be prooved intellectually to another person -- you can convince someone of the possiblity, but that is about it. They have to do their own work.)

[saicosis]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)


Yes, when you're involved.


The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.


I'm glad you see the error of your ways, because really, you've described your own actions in the above.



God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.


Where is this proof you speak of?


ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.

Did you really?

[tannah]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.

Miracles, you are the obstinate soul ignoring the evidence. And it seems quite obvious you are too sensitive to discuss the whole picture regarding number systems, where they orginated, how they developed and the works made up from them. You'v made your point, it's the bible and nothing else. So there's nothing left to say.

[miracles]

Miracles, you are the obstinate soul ignoring the evidence. And it seems quite obvious you are too sensitive to discuss the whole picture regarding number systems, where they orginated, how they developed and the works made up from them. You'v made your point, it's the bible and nothing else. So there's nothing left to say.

I cant be accused of that dear boy, you havent supplied any evidence.

Show me these other numner systems you are refrring to and aagin, not a page of google links please. Do some work instead of spouting hot air if you want to be treated serioulsy in this debate. ME sensitive? Yes, I smell a rat from a mile away, its a very helpful gift. Come on lest see a prt of th epicture you are llooking at, please, I am now pleading and begging you for some evidence for your assumptions and throw away lines.

[miracles]

There are many misconceptions. This is part of our human nature to be deceived by what we see and think.-- every person has to be on the look out for it in their own life, if you are not then you start believing everything your mind tells you is true; not putting it to the test and such.

People non-believers and believers seem to think that if there is a book which is the word of God, then we must follow this religion, or at least study it. Well maybe so, and maybe not! In other languages, instead of Word of God, we have the terms Sutra and Scripture. These are all similar,, being derived works not from men, but from the word of God. So, maybe I want to study the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. You want to believe there is only one word of God, then fine by me, but you can not show/proove that these others are not the words of God -- not if you measure with the same measure those scriptures against the ones you hold as the only truth. Not honestly, you can't. And being honest is not always something you can just announce or believe and have it be true... One can be intellectually dishonest to himself and not know it. (Like not being able to see 1 scripture as having another interpretation than the 1 you see, or being unable to understand that God can not be prooved intellectually to another person -- you can convince someone of the possiblity, but that is about it. They have to do their own work.)

Maybe so and maybe not, most probably maybe not.

Proof is proof. People who deny proof show themselves to be at enmity with the truth. Which is why absolute truth is a beautiful thing, it sorts the wheat from the chaff, so that those on the side of truth can see those who arent. The sad thing is those who are not on the side of truth are blind and can not see it. SO any form of providing proof is of no use without divine intervention, but it doesnt stop the farmer from planting seeds, but the growth belongs to the Lord, we are just doing our part. Having said that, no seeds, no growth. Scripture is to be understood, not interpreted, in all your getting get understanding. Without the Holy Sprirt's guidance the natural man will understand NOTHING: He is simply an enemy of truth and is not in control of himself, and he doesnt even realise it. So what is a man who is on the side of truth to do about this dilema? Stay silent? Speak and be mocked? The truth hurts. Men die defending it, men kill it.

[clachan]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.

Ive got the same feelings,hope your not off for ever,but if so.....God bless you mate
Clachan

[miracles]

Ive got the same feelings,hope your not off for ever,but if so.....God bless you mate
Clachan
Thanks mate. I dont think I can stay away just yet. :)

[miracles]

Yes, when you're involved.



I'm glad you see the error of your ways, because really, you've described your own actions in the above.




Where is this proof you speak of?



Did you really?
I suggest you wake up out of your psychosis.

[dedicate]

In regard to response to my post, and a couple of others, this is what I'm talking about -- being intellectually honest. Emotionally honest, yeh, maybe you got that down,, we all know how you feel. But being reasonable, and seeing things logically... well.

For example: Most of your response is just idiomatic and didactic, like "I'm on the side of truth and you refuse to see it!" jargon. Well now we know how you feel. And I guess I should bow to your interpretation of things because of it.


Which brings me to point two.. You said, "scripture is understood, not interpreted." The meaning of interpret is to present in understandable terms. And the meaning of "to understand" is to interpret. Both words imply knowing the meaning of. Look it up. It is there. And this is what I mean by being intellectually dis-honest.

[dedicate]

This is the response I am refering to..

--- Maybe so and maybe not, most probably maybe not.

Proof is proof. People who deny proof show themselves to be at enmity with the truth. Which is why absolute truth is a beautiful thing, it sorts the wheat from the chaff, so that those on the side of truth can see those who arent. The sad thing is those who are not on the side of truth are blind and can not see it. SO any form of providing proof is of no use without divine intervention, but it doesnt stop the farmer from planting seeds, but the growth belongs to the Lord, we are just doing our part. Having said that, no seeds, no growth. Scripture is to be understood, not interpreted, in all your getting get understanding. Without the Holy Sprirt's guidance the natural man will understand NOTHING: He is simply an enemy of truth and is not in control of himself, and he doesnt even realise it. So what is a man who is on the side of truth to do about this dilema? Stay silent? Speak and be mocked? The truth hurts. Men die defending it, men kill it.

[miracles]

In regard to response to my post, and a couple of others, this is what I'm talking about -- being intellectually honest. Emotionally honest, yeh, maybe you got that down,, we all know how you feel. But being reasonable, and seeing things logically... well.

For example: Most of your response is just idiomatic and didactic, like "I'm on the side of truth and you refuse to see it!" jargon. Well now we know how you feel. And I guess I should bow to your interpretation of things because of it.


Which brings me to point two.. You said, "scripture is understood, not interpreted." The meaning of interpret is to present in understandable terms. And the meaning of "to understand" is to interpret. Both words imply knowing the meaning of. Look it up. It is there. And this is what I mean by being intellectually dis-honest.

Why do you peopl talk of we, like we know how you feel, do you think you speak for others now? Or is it that you think I am the only one on the side of truth in here? Because obviously I am not.

I dont really know what you feel or think. Tell us all? At least people know wher I stand according to you.

[dedicate]

Did you have trouble with logic and algebra in school miracles? Because here on this Religion sub-forum you are expounding on absolute truths and I wonder about your reasoning skills.

"We Know how you feel".. me and those like me. It's common rhetoric and literary style. We all know this. -- that is, me and those like me.

You don't know how I feel or what I think because really I think you don't care how others see things. You seem more concerned with other things. You should maybe try and find out what other people are feeling and seeing. But you have to work at it, dig sometimes, be patient with people and lead them gently to the truth the way Jesus taught.

Lot's of people get an idea where I'm coming from and relate to the things I say. I get a lot of personal messages from people telling me how much they like my posts. No need to explain myself here/now; people get the idea sooner or later.

[george tatum]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.

There you have it.

God exists and the bible was written by God.

That's good enough for me. I'm off to sign up as a seventh day mormonist jehova lunatic or maybe I'll actually read a book by David Icke.

This forum is 99.9% gibberish and will ultimately destroy any interest in truth or wisdom, simply because the people here are almost always fountains of absolute nonsense and mind pollution.

[miracles]

Did you have trouble with logic and algebra in school miracles? Because here on this Religion sub-forum you are expounding on absolute truths and I wonder about your reasoning skills.

"We Know how you feel".. me and those like me. It's common rhetoric and literary style. We all know this. -- that is, me and those like me.

You don't know how I feel or what I think because really I think you don't care how others see things. Your seem more concerned with other things. You should maybe try and find out what other people are feeling and seeing. But you have to work at it, dig sometimes, be patient with people and lead them gently to the truth the way Jesus taught.

Lot's of people get an idea where I'm coming from and relate to the things I say. I get a lot of personal messages from people telling me how much they like my posts. No need to explain myself here/now; people get the idea sooner or later.

Thank you oh wise and benevolent Master Dedicate. Those and people like me know where I am coming from. Sadly we are few and far between, And I dont blame them for that, why jump into the muck and mire. Unlike you I am oft criticised by all comers, I am patient enough to still be here in the face of daily scorn. But it is not me they hate, it is the truth. Why do you think that is?

I already know the answer. Hopefully one day you will aswell, but alas to you I am a fundamentalist lunatic, that you have also made clear and I had the patience to find that out.

[tannah]

I cant be accused of that dear boy, you havent supplied any evidence.

Show me these other numner systems you are refrring to and aagin, not a page of google links please. Do some work instead of spouting hot air if you want to be treated serioulsy in this debate. ME sensitive? Yes, I smell a rat from a mile away, its a very helpful gift. Come on lest see a prt of th epicture you are llooking at, please, I am now pleading and begging you for some evidence for your assumptions and throw away lines.

The evidence you seek is in the Apostolic Gnosis books, the Pythagorean/Hebrew/Greek/Chaldean/Mayan etc etc etc number systems.
If you can't be bothered to look into it, and keep bleating on about "evidence", then your record just got boring.

Various people have also given you links to check out the number correlations in the quran, but you don't seem interested in the possibility of breaking the spell the bible has over you.:)

Best of luck though trying to sell your God through the number stuff.

Looks like you can read the frist volume of the Apostolic Gnosis online here:

http://www.archive.org/details/materialsforstud01leatiala

But of course this won't count will it? You'll just get back and pretend people aren't supplying you with evidence.:)

[dedicate]

"Thank you oh wise and benevolent Master Dedicate." -- Why is it that if someone appears like a wise and benevolent teacher,, then do you reject what they say? If you are being sarcastic, then you are just displaying more of your emotionallism.-- no reason, just fiery emotions spewing out at all those around you. I used to know a super teacher who had fiery emotions,, but he had a good mind and was a great man. So there is a place for it, but one should develop other streangths as well.


"Those and people like me know where I am coming from. Sadly we are few and far between, And I dont blame them for that, why jump into the muck and mire. Unlike you I am oft criticised by all comers, I am patient enough to still be here in the face of daily scorn. But it is not me they hate, it is the truth. Why do you think that is?".. is that patients or stubborness? Would you know? And everybody, including me and you, tend to hate the truth when it comes around to knock us down and put us in our place. "Take the beam out of thine own eye, and then you will see well to take the flek out of the other person's eye". Who said that?

"I already know the answer." -- don't we all.

"I am a fundamentalist lunatic." If you say so.

[tannah]

Thank you oh wise and benevolent Master Dedicate. Those and people like me know where I am coming from. Sadly we are few and far between, And I dont blame them for that, why jump into the muck and mire. Unlike you I am oft criticised by all comers, I am patient enough to still be here in the face of daily scorn. But it is not me they hate, it is the truth. Why do you think that is?

I already know the answer. Hopefully one day you will aswell, but alas to you I am a fundamentalist lunatic, that you have also made clear and I had the patience to find that out.

Personally, from what I experienced of you and your cohorts, I'd say christianity is in real dire straits nowadays. Try a sanity check on the kind of things people like you believe. I'd say no wonder we have had so many wars on this planet.

[miracles]

"Thank you oh wise and benevolent Master Dedicate." -- Why is it that if someone appears like a wise and benevolent teacher,, then do you reject what they say? If you are being sarcastic, then you are just displaying more of your emotionallism.-- no reason, just fiery emotions spewing out at all those around you. I used to know a super teacher who had fiery emotions,, but he had a good mind and was a great man. So there is a place for it, but one should develop other streangths as well.


"Those and people like me know where I am coming from. Sadly we are few and far between, And I dont blame them for that, why jump into the muck and mire. Unlike you I am oft criticised by all comers, I am patient enough to still be here in the face of daily scorn. But it is not me they hate, it is the truth. Why do you think that is?".. is that patients or stubborness? Would you know? And everybody, including me and you, tend to hate the truth when it comes around to knock us down and put us in our place. "Take the beam out of thine own eye, and then you will see well to take the flek out of the other person's eye". Who said that?

"I already know the answer." -- don't we all.

"I am a fundamentalist lunatic." If you say so.

Just another twister of words and meanings, the only way you can win is to twist the truth, and call a lie the truth. Dont you see how sad that is???? You dont appear wise at all. Quite right sarcasm.

[miracles]

The evidence you seek is in the Apostolic Gnosis books, the Pythagorean/Hebrew/Greek/Chaldean/Mayan etc etc etc number systems.
If you can't be bothered to look into it, and keep bleating on about "evidence", then your record just got boring.

Various people have also given you links to check out the number correlations in the quran, but you don't seem interested in the possibility of breaking the spell the bible has over you.:)

Best of luck though trying to sell your God through the number stuff.

Looks like you can read the frist volume of the Apostolic Gnosis online here:

http://www.archive.org/details/materialsforstud01leatiala

But of course this won't count will it? You'll just get back and pretend people aren't supplying you with evidence.:)

I dont accept a link on the internet as evidence (for 400th time) until you point out on that link what you deem to be evidence. It is not my job to search for your evidence, (im not lettin you squeeze out of this one tannah, your in a choker hold, where is the evidence pal, post it?????) it is your job to post it. No links, cut and paste what you deem to be evidence so it can be addressed in th eclear light of day, not hidden on an internet link. We all need to kno what you deem to be evidence.

Oh right here we go again with the wars being Christians fault. My goodness your so infuriating and childish.

[dedicate]

How sad what is? When a person rejects, dismisses, believes he knows when he does not, lives in ignorance of what is right before his eyes, twists and turns and comes up empty? How sad that is?

I don't know how sad it is, Miracles, but I will definitely be contemplating it. Thanks for the key off. I'm sure I will find out how unhappy a situation that is,, yes. How truely truely that is a most unhappy situation. Thanks, I didn't think of it that way.

[tannah]

I dont accept a link on the internet as evidence (for 400th time) until you point out on that link what you deem to be evidence. It is not my job to search for your evidence, (im not lettin you squeeze out of this one tannah, your in a choker hold, where is the evidence pal, post it?????) it is your job to post it. No links, cut and paste what you deem to be evidence so it can be addressed in th eclear light of day, not hidden on an internet link. We all need to kno what you deem to be evidence.

Oh right here we go again with the wars being Christians fault. My goodness your so infuriating and childish.

Read the book, get back to me. It's a very in depth book into the Greek number system relative to the bible. Read it Miracles, don't waffle.

Are you going to read it? That's the only way you're going to get the evidence you're asking for.

[miracles]

Read the book, get back to me. It's a very in depth book into the Greek number system relative to the bible. Read it Miracles, don't waffle.

Are you going to read it? That's the only way you're going to get the evidence you're asking for.

WHat book it is again please? Title author and yes I will read it.

[tannah]

WHat book it is again please? Title author and yes I will read it.

I sent you the link two posts ago. Here it is again: Free read too. Cost me.:)

http://www.archive.org/details/mater...stud01leatiala

Apostolic Gnosis - Thomas Simcox Lea + Frederick Bligh Bond

[miracles]

How sad what is? When a person rejects, dismisses, believes he knows when he does not, lives in ignorance of what is right before his eyes, twists and turns and comes up empty? How sad that is?

I don't know how sad it is, Miracles, but I will definitely be contemplating it. Thanks for the key off. I'm sure I will find out how unhappy a situation that is,, yes. How truely truely that is a most unhappy situation. Thanks, I didn't think of it that way.


well to imply that I am calling myself a fundamental lunatic. The sad thing is that Im in conflict with everyome I want to help. Im changing my aways from now on. I dont want any more conflict something has to change so I will change myself.

How are you dedicate?
Can we start again with a clean slate please?. Forgive me for my closed mindedness and bullish pigheadedness. Come let us reason together. Tell me the most important lesson you have learned in your life so far?.

[miracles]

I sent you the link two posts ago. Here it is again: Free read too. Cost me.:)

http://www.archive.org/details/mater...stud01leatiala

Apostolic Gnosis - Thomas Simcox Lea + Frederick Bligh Bond
http://www.thetop10.com/search/default.aspx?kwd=apostolic+gnosis+thomas+simcox+le a+and+frederick+bligh+bond&subid=70138-33669

You may not appreciate this but I personally hand typed the evidence I have pasted from Panin from my own books.

[tannah]

http://www.thetop10.com/search/default.aspx?kwd=apostolic+gnosis+thomas+simcox+le a+and+frederick+bligh+bond&subid=70138-33669

You may not appreciate this but I personally hand typed the evidence I have pasted from Panin from my own books.

Well good for you. Either way you're staring into a monitor reading it.

A link, a link away. Bet you love the book.:)

[miracles]

Well good for you. Either way you're staring into a monitor reading it.

A link, a link away. Bet you love the book.:)

No sorry I coulnt find the link, hit the link on my post and see what came up mate? I cant find the book?

[tannah]

No sorry I coulnt find the link, hit the link on my post and see what came up mate? I cant find the book?


Join back the spaces and hopefully it will work:

http:// www. archive. org / details/materialsforstud01leatiala

[michael christopher]

This is the response I am refering to..

--- Maybe so and maybe not, most probably maybe not.

Proof is proof. People who deny proof show themselves to be at enmity with the truth. Which is why absolute truth is a beautiful thing, it sorts the wheat from the chaff, so that those on the side of truth can see those who arent. The sad thing is those who are not on the side of truth are blind and can not see it. SO any form of providing proof is of no use without divine intervention, but it doesnt stop the farmer from planting seeds, but the growth belongs to the Lord, we are just doing our part. Having said that, no seeds, no growth. Scripture is to be understood, not interpreted, in all your getting get understanding. Without the Holy Sprirt's guidance the natural man will understand NOTHING: He is simply an enemy of truth and is not in control of himself, and he doesnt even realise it. So what is a man who is on the side of truth to do about this dilema? Stay silent? Speak and be mocked? The truth hurts. Men die defending it, men kill it.

Excellent post.

[hadabusa]

look.
a book having that numeric dont prove anything.

if jesus was real and resurrected,so what?

does that make him god?

i hate religion and any1 who claims to have suffered for MY sin,tough we didnt live at the same frikkin millenium.


even if all his prophecies became true(so far,big fat fail),is he god?

[hadabusa]

I dont accept a link on the internet as evidence (for 400th time) until you point out on that link what you deem to be evidence. It is not my job to search for your evidence, (im not lettin you squeeze out of this one tannah, your in a choker hold, where is the evidence pal, post it?????) it is your job to post it. No links, cut and paste what you deem to be evidence so it can be addressed in th eclear light of day, not hidden on an internet link. We all need to kno what you deem to be evidence.

Oh right here we go again with the wars being Christians fault. My goodness your so infuriating and childish.

lol, but the bible is good enough for evidence to you.


everythings a link, nobody has own evidence.

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CONVINCE OTHER PPL ABOUT XTIANITY?

keep your belief4yourself, missionary, were grown ppl with brains.

you are the one who choses2ignore what you dont like2hear.

[dedicate]

The title of this thread is "ignoring the evidence." -- or ignorance of what is evident, and not seeing what is there to be seen. This is a Big issue. I don't know if anyone has said it, but ignorance may be the root cause of suffering, trouble and strife. For who would take action if he knew the result would be strife? Who would commit suicide, if he knew the result would not bring an end to the trouble? Or who would vote for in an election knowing that each contestent is the same person with a different mask? Only the biggest fool would, someone addicted to the activity, or someone willfully ignoring the facts. Sane people act differently.

Having said that, what seems most important is to be informed, using the information like a tool to carve out success in life. Religion should be about this. I see in the teachings of Buddha, the Teaching of Christ, and the Teachings of Krishna, all the information one could hope to find on the means to become a real person.

That doesn't mean one can not visit a doctor, lawer or psychiatrist; Or one does not get a mechanic to work on one's car or a carpenter to build a deck. Those kinds of instructions have their places and one should recognize them for what they are. But the Religion, I believe, is the most valuable resource for information on life one could ever find. --- The Most Valuable Resource.

And it is true.-- and an odd sort of irony,, that this institution which could transform yourself and the world, is given such a brush off by so many... not taken seriously. And.. it is also a sad thing, that so many who claim "religion" don't seem to take full advantage of it--- and often end up worse for their efforts. But this is the irony: The most valuable and essential tool for human life, is misused or not used at all -- ignored.

[miracles]

The title of this thread is "ignoring the evidence." -- or ignorance of what is evident, and not seeing what is there to be seen. This is a Big issue. I don't know if anyone has said it, but ignorance may be the root cause of suffering, trouble and strife. For who would take action if he knew the result would be strife? Who would commit suicide, if he knew the result would not bring an end to the trouble? Or who would vote for in an election knowing that each contestent is the same person with a different mask? Only the biggest fool would, someone addicted to the activity, or someone willfully ignoring the facts. Sane people act differently.

Having said that, what seems most important is to be informed, using the information like a tool to carve out success in life. Religion should be about this. I see in the teachings of Buddha, the Teaching of Christ, and the Teachings of Krishna, all the information one could hope to find on the means to become a real person.

That doesn't mean one can not visit a doctor, lawer or psychiatrist; Or one does not get a mechanic to work on one's car or a carpenter to build a deck. Those kinds of instructions have their places and one should recognize them for what they are. But the Religion, I believe, is the most valuable resource for information on life one could ever find. --- The Most Valuable Resource.

And it is true.-- and an odd sort of irony,, that this institution which could transform yourself and the world, is given such a brush off by so many... not taken seriously. And.. it is also a sad thing, that so many who claim "religion" don't seem to take full advantage of it--- and often end up worse for their efforts. But this is the irony: The most valuable and essential tool for human life, is misused or not used at all -- ignored.

Assuming for arguements sake (as you know my stance) there is absolute truth, and that truth is the bible, then what value for conscience sake is there in standing by and saying nothing when people are looking for truth in the wrong direction?

In that instance is it best to stay silent do you think? Lets be objective, there are many here who are expounding all manner of lies and claiming them as truth, does one sit by and enjoy the entertainment or seek to reason? It is clear you disagree and with me and seek to reason with me, or is it that you just say your piece and leave it there. If a man is in a burning building do you force him to come out or let him burn if he says I want to stay here with my dead cat? Also what's your definition of sanity? A person who does not know that both politicians are wearing a different mask to cover the same thing, and votes for the one he likes is not insane, one could argue he is blind, or perhaps then the whole world is insane, and until one has eyes to see, then they are in their blind insanity and can not be reasoned with. "Head to the hills and live off the land and let those who are dieing die, Im all right jack" ?

[tannah]

Assuming for arguements sake (as you know my stance) there is absolute truth, and that truth is the bible, then waht value in standing by and saying nothing when people are looking for truth in the wrong direction?

In that instance is it best to stay silent do you think? Lets be objective, there arte amny here who are expounding all manner of lies and climing them as truth, does one sit by and enjoy the entertainment or seek to reason?

You've won no arguments. Questions are not being dealt with very well by the christians around here. You ignore blatant facts (which you call lies) so you can hang on to your hipnotized belief.

I'm still waiting for someone to come forward, as a believer of the bible's divine conception, and actually provide a reasonable defence in light of the facts surrounding the book and its creation and evolution throughout its history. I doubt very much it will be you or stfd that will provide it.

It doesn't bother me that you believe what you do. But your somewhat innacurate claims that "we" talk crap and you guys are having to make a stand for the truth, is..is...is...not supported by the archives.:)

[miracles]

You've won no arguments. Questions are not being dealt with very well by the christians around here. You ignore blatant facts (which you call lies) so you can hang on to your hipnotized belief.

I'm still waiting for someone to come forward, as a believer of the bible's divine conception, and actually provide a reasonable defence in light of the facts surrounding the book and its creation and evolution throughout its history. I doubt very much it will be you or stfd that will provide it.

It doesn't bother me that you believe what you do. But your somewhat innacurate claims that "we" talk crap and you guys are having to make a stand for the truth, is..is...is...not supported by the archives.:)

You'll get no better evidence than the Panin work I have supplied. Sadly you would argue the toss with Christ himself, The beef that all you people have with the bible is that God exucuted judgment on evil. And he will do it again.

Why on earth you would have a problem with that is only clear that you do not undertsand the Laws of God, any more than you understand the human courts of law.

I have supplied evidece for belief in the bible, but my conversion happened with out this evidence. My conversion happened supernaturally. I cant provide proof of that, but no one can take it away from me.

You now what, I didnt come here to make a stand for my faith, I came here looking for 911 and cropp circle stuff, but when I saw all the anti Christ stuff in the religious threads I couldnt believe my eyes, Ive been here ever since defending the faith, not prosletysing of preaching. Defending. We have a faith based on solid evidence to defend you know. Do you? No! Thats why its just a talk and insult fest to the Christians who are here. Not everyone here is anti Chrstian or anti Christ. Most are gnostic spiritual cowboys. But all are anti evidence and many are haters of the God of the bible. (perhaps thats a bit harsh, but many do not understand the God of the bible and dont care to try to.)

[tannah]

We have a faith based on solid evidence to defend you know. Do you? No! Thats why its just a talk and insult fest to the Christians who are here. Not everyone here is anti Chrstian or anti Christ. Most are gnostic spiritual cowboys. But all are anti evidence and many are haters of the God of the bible. (perhaps thats a bit harsh, but many do not understand the God of the bible and dont care to try to.)

You're back on your horsey whipping it up, calling people anti-christ and spiritual cowboys. Well I say it's futile conversing with a person like you. So I'm not going to bother much any more, except to put a "yawwwnnn" or two after your posts.

[miracles]

You're back on your horsey whipping it up, calling people anti-christ and spiritual cowboys. Well I say it's futile conversing with a person like you. So I'm not going to bother much any more, except to put a "yawwwnnn" or two after your posts.

Well thats what people who are asleep do. YAWN. :)

God bless you. :cool: (the future is so bright, I have to wear shades!) BE NICE!

[tannah]

Well thats what people who are asleep do. YAWN. :)

God bless you. :cool: (the future is so bright, I have to wear shades!) BE NICE!

I've never noticed myself yawning whilst I'm asleep.

No, you don't warrent "nice", with your anti-christ remarks, and not being able to justify your accusations that people that question your stance are full of crap. If you think you're being nice then I'm obviously being just as nice, if not a lot nicer.:)

Meet people on equal ground, or get knotted ol chap.

[miracles]

I've never noticed myself yawning whilst I'm asleep.

No, you don't warrent "nice", with your anti-christ remarks, and not being able to justify your accusations that people that question your stance are full of crap. If you think you're being nice then I'm obviously being just as nice, if not a lot nicer.:)

Meet people on equal ground, or get knotted ol chap.

No I wont decend to your level anymore. Ive moved on to the higher ground, you should come up and see us some time. The view is sublime.

[kappy0405]

lol.. you go from this:

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

to this:

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

Do you not see the irony here? :D

lololololololololololololol

[miracles]

There you have it.

God exists and the bible was written by God.

That's good enough for me. I'm off to sign up as a seventh day mormonist jehova lunatic or maybe I'll actually read a book by David Icke.

This forum is 99.9% gibberish and will ultimately destroy any interest in truth or wisdom, simply because the people here are almost always fountains of absolute nonsense and mind pollution.

It was 99.8 percent gibberish before you joined. Welcome aboard. :D

[miracles]

lol.. you go from this:



to this:



Do you not see the irony here? :D

lololololololololololololol

I see the irony in your post yes, but that isnt what you meant. LOL:D

[tannah]

No I wont decend to your level anymore. Ive moved on to the higher ground, you should come up and see us some time. The view is sublime.

The view is hipnotic where you are. No thanks, but travelling up a blind alley north of the goolies is not my idea of higher ground. It's anything but higher ground, Miracles, your judgment of mankind, pretending it's God's, and then accusing others of wanting to be God.

[miracles]

The view is hipnotic where you are. No thanks, but travelling up a blind alley north of the goolies is not my idea of higher ground. It's anything but higher ground, Miracles, your judgment of mankind, pretending it's God's, and then accusing others of wanting to be God.
Right we will leave it there shall we. Iwont respnd to your future posts, id appreciate the same from you. Cheers

[dedicate]

Assuming for arguements sake (as you know my stance) there is absolute truth, and that truth is the bible, then what value for conscience sake is there in standing by and saying nothing when people are looking for truth in the wrong direction?

In that instance is it best to stay silent do you think? Lets be objective, there are many here who are expounding all manner of lies and claiming them as truth, does one sit by and enjoy the entertainment or seek to reason? It is clear you disagree and with me and seek to reason with me, or is it that you just say your piece and leave it there. If a man is in a burning building do you force him to come out or let him burn if he says I want to stay here with my dead cat? Also what's your definition of sanity? A person who does not know that both politicians are wearing a different mask to cover the same thing, and votes for the one he likes is not insane, one could argue he is blind, or perhaps then the whole world is insane, and until one has eyes to see, then they are in their blind insanity and can not be reasoned with. "Head to the hills and live off the land and let those who are dieing die, Im all right jack" ? ---

This is a dilemma? Or is it? -- Same could be said for any fundamentalist view of their religion. Why shouldn't they throw it in your face, force you to take the red pill and stop you from living like a junkie? They are in the right? No? They are only trying to save you, make your life better. So if your Bible were the absolute thruth and your fundamentalist view of the Bible were correct, you have every reason to stop others from believing other than you do and make your views their views. Right? Nothing to stop you. Nothing to get in your way of imposing your will onto others and preventing them from jumping to their death as you say.

This is a dangerous path, and I do not think the Bible would support this method of influencing people.

This path puts you in the place of God himself. I don't think it is your business if others want to condemn themselves to eternal pain. You give the warning (and all -- And I mean each and every person has heard it!!) the warning "Believe this or go to eternal damnation!".. ONCE. Maybe twice. But then you have done all that is asked of you by the Bible. No more needs be done. It is no longer your concern. Let God handle it from there...

Same with any other aspect of your faith. No need to travel this board making a show about the evils of paganism, catholicism or satanism. (And I'm not saying you do. But just as example) Say your piece, and let others decide. You've done your part. Once people understand who and what you are about, then you are just repeating yourself, and doing Christianity, The Way, yourself and nobody any good.



P.S. I didn't say a person who votes is insane. I'm sure you just skimmed over that and missed it. I said a person who knows the candidates are two of the same suite is insane for voting.

P.S.S. Then there are tons of other NEW methods of approach... maybe you have not tried. I've found that putting objections in the form of a question is good. Like, "Why don't you see it this way?" is a good way to let the other know your opinion but giving them the opertunity to show you why they don't see things this way. Then,, I've noticed some of your fellow Christians giving you advice on how to proceed. Listen to them.

[miracles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMjsIVX8kWs

[miracles]

---

This is a dilemma? Or is it? -- Same could be said for any fundamentalist view of their religion. Why shouldn't they throw it in your face, force you to take the red pill and stop you from living like a junkie? They are in the right? No? They are only trying to save you, make your life better. So if your Bible were the absolute thruth and your fundamentalist view of the Bible were correct, you have every reason to stop others from believing other than you do and make your views their views. Right? Nothing to stop you. Nothing to get in your way of imposing your will onto others and preventing them from jumping to their death as you say.

This is a dangerous path, and I do not think the Bible would support this method of influencing people.


.
This path puts you in the place of God himself. I don't think it is your business if others want to condemn themselves to eternal pain. You give the warning (and all -- And I mean each and every person has heard it!!) the warning "Believe this or go to eternal damnation!".. ONCE. Maybe twice. But then you have done all that is asked of you by the Bible. No more needs be done. It is no longer your concern. Let God handle it from there...

Same with any other aspect of your faith. No need to travel this board making a show about the evils of paganism, catholicism or satanism. (And I'm not saying you do. But just as example) Say your piece, and let others decide. You've done your part. Once people understand who and what you are about, then you are just repeating yourself, and doing Christianity, The Way, yourself and nobody any good.



P.S. I didn't say a person who votes is insane. I'm sure you just skimmed over that and missed it. I said a person who knows the candidates are two of the same suite is insane for voting.

P.S.S. Then there are tons of other NEW methods of approach... maybe you have not tried. I've found that putting objections in the form of a question is good. Like, "Why don't you see it this way?" is a good way to let the other know your opinion but giving them the opertunity to show you why they don't see things this way. Then,, I've noticed some of your fellow Christians giving you advice on how to proceed. Listen to them.

Okay, good advice. I will leave it there. One think I wont do again is get into slanging matches

[kappy0405]

I see the irony in your post yes, but that isnt what you meant. LOL:D

the irony in my post? I didn't present a theory or self-proclaimed "fact", nor did I contradict yours, so there was no irony.. maybe you can explain?

since you claimed that the existence of God, as in a deity, "has been proven people", perhaps you can explain how with the "evidence, fact, proof and sound reason" you claim we are all ignoring? You would think after thousands of years somebody would have done this by now, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt to be the first. ;)

The floor is yours. :D

[miracles]

the irony in my post? I didn't present a theory or self-proclaimed "fact", nor did I contradict yours, so there was no irony.. maybe you can explain?

since you claimed that the existence of God, as in a deity, "has been proven people", perhaps you can explain how with the "evidence, fact, proof and sound reason" you claim we are all ignoring? You would think after thousands of years somebody would have done this by now, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt to be the first. ;)

The floor is yours. :D

The irony is your are the walking talking example of what I am talking about in this OP and you cant see it.

Dude Ive supplied evidence the bible is the word of god, on the "Irrefutable proof the bible is from God" thread.

Thank you and good night, Im done with these pathetic repteitive arguements that are stuck on a loop. Im out. Im free.

[kappy0405]

The irony is your are the walkinbg talking example of waht I am talkingaboutin this OP and you cant see it.

HUH? I didn't even give a theory or contradict yours.. My mind is open if you have proof. Nowhere was I arrogant or bigoted in any way. That's the exact opposite of what you said in your OP! lol

The fact that you would even say this shows a bit of hypocrisy.

I'm disappointed; I was looking forward to this 'proof'.

[dedicate]

What do you need for proof?

[dedicate]

It's not a stupid question, "What do you need for proof?" Any lawer knows it is important to find out what it is the jury will accept as proof before he presents it. If he wishes to proove his client's case, he would best know what proof the jury will accept. In this case you are the jury and and are asking for proof,, but I as lawer, have no idea what it is you need or will accept as proof. I don't want to present proof to you that you will not accept. That would be rediculous.

So then it will turn out.. you will not accept any proof or evidence presented to you. That means you are a jury who has already made up it's mind about the case. So why should I bother presenting any case at all. It's called a kangaroo court, captain.

But if you could tell me what evidence you need to proove the case, then I will present what I have to offer. This I guarentee you.

[dedicate]

Well, I guess any proof will do, since nobody seems to know what they will accept as proof. Then we will just have to leave it that,, God exists because people say so. I can present books and records of people who not only speak of The One Omniscent God, but people who have experienced such. 5,000 years, and all civilations have talked of this God. There is the evidence.


Or you can just look around,, His fingerprints are all over the place.

Or you can just look out the window and see how He works wonders.

But of course none of this will be good enough for some people. So the question remains... What do you need as proof?

[miracles]

Well, I guess any proof will do, since nobody seems to know what they will accept as proof. Then we will just have to leave it that,, God exists because people say so. I can present books and records of people who not only speak of The One Omniscent God, but people who have experienced such. 5,000 years, and all civilations have talked of this God. There is the evidence.


Or you can just look around,, His fingerprints are all over the place.

Or you can just look out the window and see how He works wonders.

But of course none of this will be good enough for some people. So the question remains... What do you need as proof?

His finger print is all over the bible which is my point, and the evidence is being ignored

[flereous]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.

Yeah cuz your just SOOOOOOO perfect. GTFO!

[rapunzel]

His finger print is all over the bible which is my point, and the evidence is being ignored

If your contention about the code in the Bible is true why do you think this has not been taken up by Christianity generally?

[miracles]

If your contention about the code in the Bible is true why do you think this has not been taken up by Christianity generally?

Because Christianity generally isnt Christian. :D

PS, it's not a contention, it is true, I have supplied the evidence.

[miracles]

Yeah cuz your just SOOOOOOO perfect. GTFO!
Lovely. :(

[dedicate]

I agree, Miracles, the Bible has God written all over it. But not everybody is going to see it. And I'm not sure one can make them see, even by pointing out certain things. That's why I'm asking what is needed for proof, and discovering people don't know what they need for proof, or have no room for proof what-so-ever.

Where I differ from you is I believe: the Bible has been tampered with; the translation is inaccurate in many places; and there are text outside the Bible which are revealed Christian scripture, or at least could be considered such.

This is true -- I was in a waiting room two weeks ago and started to read a Bible they had around. I'm not a full Bible scholar and thought nothing unusual about seeing The Book of Sarah, which I began to read. I was amazed at the things I read, and wondered why none of it seemed at all familiar to me. When I got home and decided to re-read the book, I discoved my Bible did not have this book! Evidently this book is an Old Testament Apocrypha, and I wonder why it is dismissed in KJV>? How many others we don't know about? And what about modern texts? No new scripture? Why not?

[miracles]

I agree, Miracles, the Bible has God written all over it. But not everybody is going to see it. And I'm not sure one can make them see, even by pointing out certain things. That's why I'm asking what is needed for proof, and discovering people don't know what they need for proof, or have no room for proof what-so-ever.

Where I differ from you is I believe: the Bible has been tampered with; the translation is inaccurate in many places; and there are text outside the Bible which are revealed Christian scripture, or at least could be considered such.

This is true -- I was in a waiting room two weeks ago and started to read a Bible they had around. It is not uncommon for me to read something in the Bible I have never read before so thought nothing of The Book of Sarah. I was amazed at the things I read, and wondered why none of it seemed at all familiar to me. When I got home and decided to re-read the book, I discoved my Bible did not have this book! Evidently this book is an Old Testament Apocripha, and I wonder why it is dismissed in KJV>?

The books not included in the 66 do not contain the pattern Panin has brought to life. That is one reason, although since he has brought thisout in the late 1800s one would have to assume that divine interventoon as lead to their omittence, and we know the apocrypha is a catholic contruction, they add and subtract books and laws and commandments as they see fit a give one man the authority of God on earth. Not to mention many other the things the bible instructs men not to do. If God promised to preserve His word, no tampering from men will alter it. The tampering read herring is designed to tamper with mens minds and cast doubt which is what satan is all about. Satan can not change the word of God, he can only cast doubt upon it in mens minds. The bible is in tact.

[rapunzel]

Because Christianity generally isnt Christian. :D

PS, it's not a contention, it is true, I have supplied the evidence.

Are you saying that only the people who believe your "evidence" are true Christians?

[miracles]

Are you saying that only the people who believe your "evidence" are true Christians?
No

[dedicate]

Where in the Bible does God promise to keep his work intact? I only know of Revelation warning against tampering, and that concerns only that book. Does it mention in the Bible that all Hebrew and Christian scriptures would be gathered into one book? and would be "The Word of God".. the one and only book of Gods' Word?

As for modern Christians rejecting Bible Code.. It is a funny thing (funny/strange) they do reject BC, but I think most modern Christians religate this sort of thing as OCCULT or of the Devil. There use to be a show on TV.,, by preachers Church (his name) and another who studied the Hebrew Letters and their meanings. They even had a series of shows outlining prophecy found in the Psalms when read in Hebrew. Those two preachers would never admit what they were doing had anything to do with Kabbala. In fact, because of the letters and feedback to the show, they had to deny it. But Kaballa it was. Bible Code is hidden (occult-ish). Thus, I guess, Bible Code and Kaballa is a trick of the mind played on us by the Devil. I don't see it that way though.

[rapunzel]

No

So why don't other true Christians believe Panin's theory.?

Does 1 John 5:7 fit into Panin's theory?

[miracles]

So why don't other true Christians believe Panin's theory.?

Does 1 John 5:7 fit into Panin's theory?

I dont know, why do non Christians not believe and become christians?

The whole bible is numerical pattern. Its not a theory. When God speaks it is a perfect mathmatical pattern just like the earth and all creation is mathmatics, snowflakes etc etc so is his written word, thats how we know God wrote it. Men could not have done this.

http://www.wolaver.org/math/snowflakes.jpg

SNOW FLAKES

I wager if the whole bible was put into a computer and the numbers crunched we would end up with patterns and shapes like this - sacred geometry

[tannah]

Panin has not discovered that God wrote the bible . Panin has discovered a number system. Other number systems exist. The quran makes similar claims.

What is totally out of order is this arrogant view that anyone questioning this supposed "evidece" is anti-Christ. It leaves no room for reasoning, and as far as I'm concerned this so called true christian attitude is the worst form of blind religion I've encontered so far.

[miracles]

Panin has not discovered that God wrote the bible . Panin has discovered a number system. Other number systems exist. The quran makes similar claims.

What is totally out of order is this arrogant view that anyone questioning this supposed "evidece" is anti-Christ. It leaves no room for reasoning, and as far as I'm concerned this so called true christian attitude is the worst form of blind religion I've encontered so far.

Tannah, calm down man. I never said anyone who doesnt believe this is anti Christ. I said when I came here a year ago the threads where full of anti-christ stuff. Okay, get your facts straight man. Its not like that now. Not so long ago, Christians where banned very quickly in here, that may surprise you to know that.

Panin has proven irrefuteably that God did write the bible. Im sorry you dont agree, but I have the evidence. But I will say agin, this evidence is not required to know God wrote it once one is supernaturally born again as a result of reading it.

[rapunzel]

I dont know, why do non Christians not believe and become christians?

The whole bible is numerical pattern. Its not a theory. When God speaks it is a perfect mathmatical pattern just like the earth and all creation is mathmatics, snowflakes etc etc so is his written word, thats how we know God wrote it. Men could not have done this.

http://www.wolaver.org/math/snowflakes.jpg

SNOW FLAKES

I wager if the whole bible was put into a computer and the numbers crunched we would end up with patterns and shapes like this - sacred geometry

When you say "I don't know" are you referring to my first question or my second because the second question was important.

[reality man]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

My recent sentiments exactly too miracles, only i'm talking about a different bunch than you are - obviously!

I too am signing off as I now realize that this forum how shown that the world is full of paranoid, sleepwalking, hypnotised looneys after all who see life and the world as black n white only and refuse to budge an inch - and also what miracles said too

So goodbye peeps for the last time - i'm away off (not to watch the telly) but to read a good novel (at least I know its all bullshit!

[tannah]

Panin has proven irrefuteably that God did write the bible. Im sorry you dont agree, but I have the evidence.

Dream on sunshine.

[miracles]

When you say "I don't know" are you referring to my first question or my second because the second question was important.
The whole bible is numerical pattern. So yes it does. :)

[michael christopher]

I once smoked a joint out of a Bible page. It tasted like shit. It was Leviticus, that's probably why.

[miracles]

I once smoked a joint out of a Bible page. It tasted like shit. It was Leviticus, that's probably why.

Well if you smoked a number its no wonder your seeing numbers everywhere. :p

[rapunzel]

The whole bible is numerical pattern. So yes it does. :)

But 1 John 5:7 is widely believed by most scholars to be an interpolation as is the ending of Mark and the story of Jesus and the adulteress. Some of the letters attributed to Paul are also suspect.

[miracles]

But 1 John 5:7 is widely believed by most scholars to be an interpolation as is the ending of Mark and the story of Jesus and the adulteress. Some of the letters attributed to Paul are also suspect.


Lots of stuff is widely believed. Doesnt make it so. Lots of people call everything Paul did to be false and a lie. IE two thirds of the NT.

It doesnt surprise me how people would have a go at that scripture becuase it cleary states father son and holy spirit are one.

Ivan Panin with his use of the numeric structure that God has placed throughout scripture has laid to rest all so called "interpolations" for all eternity. That Christ was raised from the dead in the last 12 verses of mark was also "believed" to be interpolation, go figure!!! I wonder why?? Because it's the whole basis of the Christian faith, that and the father son and holy spirit scriptures.

[stfd]

Lots of stuff is widely believed. Doesnt make it so. Lots of people call everything Paul did to be false and a lie. IE two thirds of the NT.

It doesnt surprise me how people would have a go at that scripture becuase it cleary states father son and holy spirit are one.

Ivan Panin with his use of the numeric structure that God has placed throughout scripture has laid to rest all so called "interpolations" for all eternity. That Christ was raised from the dead in the last 12 verses of mark was also "believed" to be interpolation, go figure!!! I wonder why?? Because it's the whole basis of the Christian faith, that and the father son and holy spirit scriptures.



Yep so many 'things' are 'widely believed'.
But just because something is believed by MANY, doesn't make the 'object' of belief true. It simply means-that many believe it.
WHat must be true in order for something to be true is it's SUBSTANCE it's composition and NOT the number of believers.

And i dare to generalise on this even more and say that what many on this forum are doing is exactly that.
ASSUME that Christianity is what they have they been deceived into believing.

good post mr miracles man !

[rapunzel]

Lots of stuff is widely believed. Doesnt make it so. Lots of people call everything Paul did to be false and a lie. IE two thirds of the NT.

It doesnt surprise me how people would have a go at that scripture becuase it cleary states father son and holy spirit are one.

Ivan Panin with his use of the numeric structure that God has placed throughout scripture has laid to rest all so called "interpolations" for all eternity. That Christ was raised from the dead in the last 12 verses of mark was also "believed" to be interpolation, go figure!!! I wonder why?? Because it's the whole basis of the Christian faith, that and the father son and holy spirit scriptures.

The people I am talking about are reputable Bible scholars, often Christian themsleves who are many years of study and knowledge of languages have come to the conclusion that the Comma Johanneum in particular is fraudulent as in this extract from Bible.org

"This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. "

Source: http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

The doctrine of the Trinity took centuries to develop into its present form and a sticking point was always that it was not alluded to directly in the Bible. Hence the insertion of the disputed verse. Many of the early Church Fathers write about this doctrine and dispute endlessly about its meaning but although they discuss other scriptures they don't refer to 1 John 5:7. I wonder why?

The ending of Mark is not the only Gospel which has Jesus raised from the dead so that could not be a reason for those Christian scholars to doubt that the last few verses were original.

[michael christopher]

The people I am talking about are reputable Bible scholars, often Christian themsleves who are many years of study and knowledge of languages have come to the conclusion that the Comma Johanneum in particular is fraudulent as in this extract from Bible.org

"This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. "

Source: http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

The doctrine of the Trinity took centuries to develop into its present form and a sticking point was always that it was not alluded to directly in the Bible. Hence the insertion of the disputed verse. Many of the early Church Fathers write about this doctrine and dispute endlessly about its meaning but although they discuss other scriptures they don't refer to 1 John 5:7. I wonder why?

The ending of Mark is not the only Gospel which has Jesus raised from the dead so that could not be a reason for those Christian scholars to doubt that the last few verses were original.

Ouch!

You are going to hell for pointing that out, blasphemer!

[kappy0405]

God wrote Kryptos too.. The Voynich Manuscript - written by God. :cool:

Seriously, humans are incapable of producing patterns in their texts. ITS A FACT!

[rapunzel]

Ouch!

You are going to hell for pointing that out, blasphemer!

See you there then:D

[danceswithbunnies]

Wasn't the Arian controversy part of the schism around the nicene council in 325? Wasn't Arius banished as a result?
Isn't it true that trinity is a Hindu concept coming from India..

As i have quoted elsewhere that John 1:1 is a direct paraphrase of a verse from the puranas ..

Anyway Synoptics date from late second century..around 180 AD...there is a total silence in the antenicene church fathers writings quoting from them..

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=19

Assumption: The Gospels were written in The First Century

THE REALITY

There is so much evidence that the Gospels were written in the Second Century that it’s hard to believe that the vast majority of scholars still stick stubbornly to the belief that they are a First Century production. (snip)



* The first epistle of Clement of Rome (c 64-96 A.D.), which is reasonably dated to 95 A.D., makes no mention of any of the Gospels although it does mention the epistles of Paul. This is a strange omission had the Gospels been circulating at that time.
* The Gospel of Luke borrows heavily from material in Josephus’ (37–100 A.D.) later works [3], especially Life and Against Apion, implying that the Gospel of Luke was not composed (much less published) until after 100 A.D., since Josephus’ later works weren’t published before 95 A.D.
* None of the Gospels are mentioned in the letters of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, which can be dated from 110 A.D.
* Archeologically, the earliest dated portion of any gospel is a tiny fragment consisting of a few words from what could be the Gospel of John, and this dates to 125 AD (Funk & Hoover, 1993, p. 9).



The earliest allusion to any of the Gospels is from about 130 A.D. in the works of Bishop Papias, who refers to a collection of Jesus’ sayings/oracles in a Hebrew book whose author is said to be the disciple Matthew [4]. This book of sayings may refer to the lost document Q, but it obviously does not refer to the Gospel of Matthew, as we know it. Papias also mentions recollections of the disciple Peter, recorded by his secretary Mark. Though neither of these references is to what we now know as the Gospels of Mark and of Matthew, they begin to suggest that some things resembling these Gospels were in circulation after 130 A.D. Yet they were certainly not very well known since other prominent Christian writings from this period do not contain any references to them (e.g., Polycarp, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Exigetica, The Book of Hermas).



The first mention of the Gospels, as we know them, comes around 140 A.D. in the work of Aristides of Athens who refers to “the holy Gospel writing”. Yet we can’t be certain that these are the same Gospels. Shortly thereafter, a Christian reformer named Marcion (110–160 A.D.) broke with the traditional church over the issue of Jesus’ divinity, and set up his own church, including in its writings a stripped down version of the Gospel of Luke. In 150 A.D. Justin Martyr (c 100-163 A.D.) of Rome composed the first of his two Apologies, in which he specifically refers to the writings of Luke, Matthew, and Mark as “memoirs” (in the tradition of Papias 20 years earlier), but clearly not in the form of the Gospels as we know them (Waite, 1992). About 10 years later, Justin’s student, Tatian (c 110-185 A.D.), brought together the four Gospels and combined them into one harmonized book which he called the Diatessaron, written in Tatian’s native language of Syric. And by 180 A.D. Irenaeus (c 130-202 A.D.) wrote in his principal work, Against Heresies, that: “The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds…Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these…” (3.11.7-8).



Another indication that the gospels were written in the Second Century comes from the genealogy in the Gospel of Matthew. Herein the inclusion of four women with "questionable" backgrounds is usually taken by scholars to be an attempt by the writers of Matthew to discount the rumors that Mary had an affair with a Roman archer. In other words, if these four women with questionable backgrounds nonetheless led exalted lives, then Mary's questionable background can be discounted too. While there is near unanimity that this is the rationale, as far as we know, rumors about Mary are a Second Century phenomenon, mentioned for the first time in Celsus, around 175 AD. Hence, any remedies to offset these rumors must also have been from the Second Century.



Continuing with the Gospel of Matthew, those writers attempted damage control again in the passage about the resurrection, in which they claimed "this story [stealing the body of Jesus from the tomb] is still told among the Jews to this day (28:15).” In fact, there are no references to this story in the literature of the First Century and only in the Second Century is it mentioned by writers such as Tertullian [c. 155 - 230] and Justin Martyr [c. 100 - 165]. So, if the writers of Matthew are writing when these rumors are “still being told”, they must be writing in the Second Century, not the First.



Or consider the Gospel of Luke. Luke goes to great lengths to tone down the apocalyptic emphasis clearly present in Mark [5]. Ehrman (1999) notes: “Luke continues to think that the end of the age is going to come in his own lifetime. But he does not seem to think that it was supposed to come in the lifetime of Jesus’ companions. Why not? Evidently because he was writing after they had died… (p. 130).” Now consider what the “lifetime of Jesus’ companions” involved. Assuming Jesus died in 36 AD and assuming that some of his followers were 12 to 15 years old at the time (a reasonable assumption, particularly considering that “boy” is often mentioned), and assuming that it wasn’t unusual for a person to live to be 60 years old in those days (some people are said to live to be 100, but that’s probably an exaggeration), it means that the boys who attended Jesus would have lived until the end of the First Century. So if the writers of the Gospel of Luke were writing after the followers of Jesus were all dead, ipso facto, they were writing at the very end of the First Century, or more likely, in the Second Century. If you narrow the definition of "followers" to refer only to the disciples, we have to consider John, son of Zedebee, who was said to have lived to be 100. If John was 30 when Jesus died, and lived another 70 years, it still places the writing of Luke into the Second Century.



A further indication that the gospels are Second Century inventions comes from a careful study of the non-Christian writings (Van Voorst, 2000). The earliest works by Thallos (55 AD), Mara bar Serapion (73 AD), Pliny the Younger (100 AD), Tacitus (116 AD), and Suetonius (120 AD) contain virtually no historical information about Jesus, despite mentions of Christ, Chrestus, etc. But starting with Lucian of Samosata (165 AD), Jesus is mentioned as a "crucified sophist" and then with Celsus (175 AD) there is a plethora of historical information. Something happened between 120 AD and 170 AD that the non-historical Jesus suddenly assumed his historical mantle. Our assumption is that the appearance of the gospels, in the early to mid Second Century, accounts for this phenomenon. Had the Gospels been circulating in the First Century, historical material about Jesus would have appeared in the works of these writers early non-Christian writers such as Thallos, Pliny, and Tacitus.



We get still another indication that the Gospels were written in the Second Century from Pilate's title, Prefect. The office of Prefect was abolished around 46 AD, 10 years after Pilate had been removed from office. In 115 AD, Tacitus made the error of referring to Pilate as a Procurator, instead of a Prefect, probably because by that time the distinction had disappeared (Wroe, 1999, p. 65). Yet the Gospels refer to Pilate as a Procurator. Had they been written shortly after Jesus' death, the writers would have known about the difference between the Prefect and Procurator, and surely would have remembered the title of the longest serving Prefect in Judea. Instead, they use the term Procurator, implying that they are using the Tacitus error or, if not, they are writing at a similar time in which they and Tacitus make the same error. This places the gospel writings into the Second Century.



Another indicator that the Gospels are Second Century inventions comes from the rabid anti-Semitism contained therein. In the very early years, Christians were all Jews. By mid First Century, if the letters of Paul are to be believed, the Gentile movement took hold, but Jews and Gentiles still got along. But it was only after the destruction of the Temple and at the end of the First Century that relationships between Christians and Jews deteriorated, illustrated by the special malediction placed in the central Jewish prayer, the Shermoneh Esrei (aka Sherman Esrei), cursing the Nazarenes and other Christian groups. Thus, the rabid anti-Semitism of the gospels is clearly a Second Century phenomenon. groups, cementing the schism between Christians and Jews. Prior to this date (approximately 90 AD), such vehement anti-Semitism would not have been expected.



Finally, our survey of the early Christian art indicates that prior to the Third Century there are almost no portraits of Jesus in any medium. Had Jesus’ life been celebrated by the gospels as early as the First Century, one would have expected any explosion of artwork in the Second Century. Instead, it is only in the Third Century that we find such an explosion, suggesting that the gospels and the celebration of Jesus’ life is a Second Century phenomenon.



To summarize – Evidence from carbon dating, language analysis (e.g., use of Pilate, rabid anti-Semitism, the allusion to rumors about Mary, etc.) and citation as well as First Century non-Christian sources, show that the Gospels were written in the Second Century. Moreover, inferences from the artwork confirm this conclusion. By 160 A.D. we know, without question, that all four gospels were in circulation, and by 180 A.D. they were considered authoritative. Yet this is more than 100 years after Jesus’ death [6].

[miracles]

The people I am talking about are reputable Bible scholars, often Christian themsleves who are many years of study and knowledge of languages have come to the conclusion that the Comma Johanneum in particular is fraudulent as in this extract from Bible.org

"This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. "

Source: http://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

The doctrine of the Trinity took centuries to develop into its present form and a sticking point was always that it was not alluded to directly in the Bible. Hence the insertion of the disputed verse. Many of the early Church Fathers write about this doctrine and dispute endlessly about its meaning but although they discuss other scriptures they don't refer to 1 John 5:7. I wonder why?

The ending of Mark is not the only Gospel which has Jesus raised from the dead so that could not be a reason for those Christian scholars to doubt that the last few verses were original.
As I said you believe what you want. I belive the truth, because I have the evidence.

[rapunzel]

As I said you believe what you want. I belive the truth, because I have the evidence.

You obviously didn't read my post or the link or else you didn't understand it because you have made no comment on it whatsover. All you have done is to stick your fingers in your ears and say "I'm not listening........"

Belief is easy if you ignore the evidence against it. But hey, it's a free world and you're welcome to your belief even if you're frightened to look at the evidence against it.

Cheers

[edelweiss pirate]

Ouch!

You are going to hell for pointing that out, blasphemer!

Baiter. A 'Master' baiter I might add.

Post something worthwhile instead of constantly baitin' on the forum.

[seanx]

kappy0405 wrote:
God wrote Kryptos too.. The Voynich Manuscript - written by God.

Seriously, humans are incapable of producing patterns in their texts. ITS A FACT!

Funny that.

Yoiur bible also says: Be still and know that you are God.

So we are God at this level of awareness

You guys seem to ignore all the bits you don't like - and then just write
compete nonsense.

[bealert]

I have recently come to the realisation (I know slow huh?) that all meaningful discussion in these forums is a total and utter waste of time. (unless its entertianment value equal to that of television)

The reason being, evidence, fact, proof and sound reason is flatly ignored with no evidence, fact, proof or reason supplied to the contrary, only abuse and mockery and scorn, which means one spends ones time "debating" all and sundry in a talk fest with infants, closed minded biggots and people with chips on both shoulders. I fear most in here have arrived with a made up closed, blinded mind and their modus operandi is to cause discent and to unleash the bitterness in their twisted black hearts. Im done with it.

Im a grown man, I should know better.

God wrote the bible through men, it's been proven people. GET REAL.

ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.

LOVE MIRACLES.

Im off to watch TV, it's better than this.

PS You can not have your sins and a walk with God, I know this is why you are all so opposed to the Bible. The light shone but you loved darkness. It only took me 3201 posts to realise that. Im a slow learner but I got it in the end.
once a person as made up hes mind about something its very unlikely anybody on any forum can change there mind..forums only seem to aggravate a disagreement especially where religion ... politics or other strong beliefs are involved. you have a belief Miracle and that belief is with god and not with anybody on this forum stay with it and don't try not persuade those that don't want to hear.

[kappy0405]

kappy0405 wrote: "The Voynich Manuscript - written by God.

Seriously, humans are incapable of producing patterns in their texts. ITS A FACT"

Funny that.

Yoiur bible also says: Be still and know that you are God.

So we are God at this level of awareness

You guys seem to ignore all the bits you don't like - and then just write
compete nonsense.

:p I was being sarcastic. I thought that might have been obvious considering the previous direction of the thread. :cool:

Yes, we (and everything that is) are 'God'.

Jesus said, "The kingdom is within you and it is outside of you." ... "When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father"

Icke was right. We are infinite consciousness, and apparently, Jesus agreed. :)

[miracles]

once a person as made up hes mind about something its very unlikely anybody on any forum can change there mind..forums only seem to aggravate a disagreement especially where religion ... politics or other strong beliefs are involved. you have a belief Miracle and that belief is with god and not with anybody on this forum stay with it and don't try not persuade those that don't want to hear.
Fair enough.

[miracles]

You obviously didn't read my post or the link or else you didn't understand it because you have made no comment on it whatsover. All you have done is to stick your fingers in your ears and say "I'm not listening........"

Belief is easy if you ignore the evidence against it. But hey, it's a free world and you're welcome to your belief even if you're frightened to look at the evidence against it.

Cheers

I dont read links. If you have someting to say post. There is no evidence to refute my evidence. OKAY?

[michael christopher]

I dont read links. If you have someting to say post. There is no evidence to refute my evidence. OKAY?

LOL

This thread is called "Ignoring the Evidence" and you made it, yet looking who is ignoring most of the evidence.

You are a real satire. It's even more funny that you were bitching and leaving yet it's clear you are going nowhere. Have you gotten enough attention yet?

[miracles]

LOL

This thread is called "Ignoring the Evidence" and you made it, yet looking who is ignoring most of the evidence.

You are a real satire. It's even more funny that you were bitching and leaving yet it's clear you are going nowhere. Have you gotten enough attention yet?
No its dead boring in here now. I really think Ive grown out of it

How many numbers have you seen today?? And what demons are ringing in your head? At least thats entertaining.

[michael christopher]

No its dead boring in here now. I really think Ive grown out of it

How many numbers have you seen today?? And what demons are ringing in your head? At least thats entertaining.

You can't leave, can you? You always threaten like anyone here would miss you.

Yes, I've seen plenty of synchronized numbers today, in fact I played some of them in the lottery last night and got 3/6 numbers.

No demons ringing in my head though. You seem so fascinated with demons, I wonder why they're on your mind so much.

[miracles]

You can't leave, can you? You always threaten like anyone here would miss you.

Yes, I've seen plenty of synchronized numbers today, in fact I played some of them in the lottery last night and got 3/6 numbers.

.

3/6 numbers wow, I get that on a lucky dip, its a losing ticket.

Erm no Im facsinated by the demons in your mind actually. ( yo call them spirits though HAH.)


So you wouldnt miss me if I left then? No one talking to you so you thought you'd have another dance with me huh?? My dance card is full sorry.

[revolutionary_jam]

people need to connect to spirit to see evidence from propaganda
your intellect filters through your belief system while spirit can circumvent it

some mind-altering substances can help you know what it's like so you can emulate it in sober existence but for me it's been a long road getting that kind of awareness as a permanent fixture

[revolutionary_jam]

for a clear example of someones belief system emotionally swaying them away from evidence listen to this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx82iiDfbfo

notice how the interviewee keeps on reverting to the argument that "8 judges found him guilty" rather than addressing direct points of contrary evidence.

NB. I do not always appreciate the way Galloway addresses the caller, he also is often guilty of losing is temper when his belief system is challenged and losing your temper in a debate is often a sign that one is brainwashed by their belief system.

[rapunzel]

I dont read links. If you have someting to say post. There is no evidence to refute my evidence. OKAY?

I did post a paragraph from the link which you evidently didn't read. Why? Are you scared of finding facts which might disturb your belief? If posters take the trouble to post a link which supports their point of view it is most discourteous not to make the attempt to read it.

[michael christopher]

3/6 numbers wow, I get that on a lucky dip, its a losing ticket.

Erm no Im facsinated by the demons in your mind actually. ( yo call them spirits though HAH.)


So you wouldnt miss me if I left then? No one talking to you so you thought you'd have another dance with me huh?? My dance card is full sorry.

You should just go away, really. The only reason you're here is to push your brainwashing on people. It's plainly obvious. This is the David Icke forum. He is an anti-Christian. Christians would only come here to troll and attack people who study David Icke's research. You have proven yourself unable to take seriously any sort of authentic evidence and yet you claim some kabbalistic numerology proves the Bible is correct. You're a hypocrite on all fronts and very few people like you. You have defended the murder of infant children in the name of your God. You are really a joke. No one is buying what you're selling, yet you still devote so much time here trying to sell it. So much energy, fury and rage you put into your emanations, all for naught.

Stop while you're behind, okay.