No Belief Is True

[reality man]

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I will kick start this forum with a question.

When I say to you, that ALL of your beliefs are not true, what do you feel or think? Do you get angry or irritated, or are you indifferent?

Well then, read on a little - let's see where this all takes us ....



Many people throughout time have fought over beliefs - of who is right and who is wrong concerning beliefs, beliefs and more beliefs.

Yet what is belief anyway, but mere thought swirling around a mind which does not know reality - like a dream at night - no one ever questions the so called "reality" of a dream whilst one is having it - No - it is only when we awaken from the dream that we know that our dream/thought/belief was not reality.

Our religious beliefs in particular are fed into our mind as children - they come mainly from OLD BOOKS taught to us by what we percive as being "intelligent" adults. We trust these adults - we think they have all of the answers, and so we allow our uncontaminated mind/awareness to be hypnotised with thier second hand views of life and reality.

As adults we do not question our religious beliefs due to the sticky manner in which they soil our mind and awareness. We see the dream of religion and we see its books and its structures, and it puts up a very convincing illusion (just like the night time dream does). As a result - all we see is our belief and nothing will ever make us see the truth, whilst we hold a belief up in front of our eyes instead.

Other forms of belief saturate our awarenss too - beliefs about who or what we are - where we came from - where we are headed. When we say the words "I am a ..." - we usually finish up with a mere belief (a thought) about who or what we are, and not the reality of what we truly are.

Some of us move away from organized relgion into the new age philosophies - we think we are radicals or seekers after truths by doing this - but are we really? Are we not just swapping the old belief system for a "newer" or more trendy belief system instead? Are we not still obscuring our true reality with an even trickier form of belief - a form of belief which actually makes us BELIEVE that we do know the truth of our inner being and reality - when we actually don't?

I say that no belief is true, simply because belief comes from thought - we usually have no evidence of our beliefs, but some of us would gladly start a war to uphold and project them anyway - if we do find some evidence, whether physical eveidence or experiential evidence within our own awareness to confirm what we believed to be true - well then - our beliefs are no longer beliefs, but have then been transformed into realities/truths/certainties.

What I wonder, would happen if we ever cleared our awareness of our beliefs/thoughts/dreams and allowed the perception of reality to arise in our awareness instead? You see - our beliefs obscure the reality of what is!

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!


What do you all think about this subject?




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[fallensoul]

What I wonder, would happen if we ever cleared our awareness of our beliefs/thoughts/dreams and allowed the perception of reality to arise in our awareness instead? You see - our beliefs obscure the reality of what is!

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!

Done this, everything is just an illusion, this life is but a dream and sometimes we dream inside this dream, or maybe we return to the "reality" realm of infinite possibilities, those who have had lucid dreams know what I mean.

No reason to believe in anything, just KNOW.

Good post reality man, you have lifted many veils in your time.

[zenith82]

I agree 100%, there's a big difference between believing and knowing. I don't believe anything but i know what i know to be true lol.

[bagatell]

beLIEf

[reality man]

beLIEf
.


That's a good way to put it bagatell - simple and straight to the point.



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[manxboz]

Are you forgetting something, the belief that nothing is true is still a belief.

[reality man]

Are you forgetting something, the belief that nothing is true is still a belief.


Manzbox, you need to get the words I used correct before posting. I said that no BELIEF is true - I never said that nothing is true!

No offense.

[miracles]

.


I will kick start this forum with a question.

When I say to you, that ALL of your beliefs are not true, what do you feel or think? Do you get angry or irritated, or are you indifferent?

Well then, read on a little - let's see where this all takes us ....



Many people throughout time have fought over beliefs - of who is right and who is wrong concerning beliefs, beliefs and more beliefs.

Yet what is belief anyway, but mere thought swirling around a mind which does not know reality - like a dream at night - no one ever questions the so called "reality" of a dream whilst one is having it - No - it is only when we awaken from the dream that we know that our dream/thought/belief was not reality.

Our religious beliefs in particular are fed into our mind as children - they come mainly from OLD BOOKS taught to us by what we percive as being "intelligent" adults. We trust these adults - we think they have all of the answers, and so we allow our uncontaminated mind/awareness to be hypnotised with thier second hand views of life and reality.

As adults we do not question our religious beliefs due to the sticky manner in which they soil our mind and awareness. We see the dream of religion and we see its books and its structures, and it puts up a very convincing illusion (just like the night time dream does). As a result - all we see is our belief and nothing will ever make us see the truth, whilst we hold a belief up in front of our eyes instead.

Other forms of belief saturate our awarenss too - beliefs about who or what we are - where we came from - where we are headed. When we say the words "I am a ..." - we usually finish up with a mere belief (a thought) about who or what we are, and not the reality of what we truly are.

Some of us move away from organized relgion into the new age philosophies - we think we are radicals or seekers after truths by doing this - but are we really? Are we not just swapping the old belief system for a "newer" or more trendy belief system instead? Are we not still obscuring our true reality with an even trickier form of belief - a form of belief which actually makes us BELIEVE that we do know the truth of our inner being and reality - when we actually don't?

I say that no belief is true, simply because belief comes from thought - we usually have no evidence of our beliefs, but some of us would gladly start a war to uphold and project them anyway - if we do find some evidence, whether physical eveidence or experiential evidence within our own awareness to confirm what we believed to be true - well then - our beliefs are no longer beliefs, but have then been transformed into realities/truths/certainties.

What I wonder, would happen if we ever cleared our awareness of our beliefs/thoughts/dreams and allowed the perception of reality to arise in our awareness instead? You see - our beliefs obscure the reality of what is!

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!


What do you all think about this subject?




.

I dont get angry, I get annoyed when people misquote the bible and use the bible wrongly for their own beliefs, regardless as to whether people think the bible is true, it is still the bible and deserves to be quoted in context if at all by unbelivers in it.

EG Bible girl has set up a thread statingthat he bible teaches Reincarnation, thats the biggest lie under the sun, and many deluded fools in here are buyingit. I detest that sort of thing. Oh and then I get accused for being a troll and to "ram it" when I disagree on the thread. Pathetic isnt it? Yes it is.

[brainfreeze]

I dont get angry, I get annoyed when people misquote the bible and use the bible wrongly for their own beliefs, regardless as to whether people think the bible is true, it is still the bible and deserves to be quoted in context if at all by unbelivers in it.

EG Bible girl has set up a thread statingthat he bible teaches Reincarnation, thats the biggest lie under the sun, and many deluded fools in here are buyingit. I detest that sort of thing. Oh and then I ger accused for being a troll when I disagree on the thread. Pathetic isnt it.


~The bible is open to interpretation which is why there are so many Christian "factions" so to speak.

EG: the Catholics and the Protostants have never agreed, and so goes it with religion.

[tannah]

I dont get angry, I get annoyed when people misquote the bible and use the bible wrongly for their own beliefs, regardless as to whether people think the bible is true, it is still the bible and deserves to be quoted in context if at all by unbelivers in it.

EG Bible girl has set up a thread statingthat he bible teaches Reincarnation, thats the biggest lie under the sun, and many deluded fools in here are buyingit. I detest that sort of thing. Oh and then I ger accused for being a troll when I disagree on the thread. Pathetic isnt it.

I was online talking with a friend from America just now, and we discussed this killing of the first borns , as mentioned in the bible. In her younger days this American lady was very much a Christian. She more or less predicted the kind of responses I'd likely get from Christians over this issue. As such, I can only sit here and observe your hipocrasy Miracles. If I'm being told to respect your beliefs, I'd rather not bother posting anymore. It makes a mockery of reason to have to be labelled a hater, merely for pointing out stuff that simply doesn't add up. Can you actually put together a reasoned response, rather than try to ignore the issue? How do you believe in a God that is a baby slayer????????????????????????? I don't care how righteous this God thought it was, it is not acceptable by decent people that a creator should exist that performs such actions. And therefore, I consider the bible not to be the Word of God.

Find me a context, Miracles, where this God can righteously slay babies.
I'd like all the Christians that ever read this, and that have children, to look at their kids and ask how they'd feel if one of those children were murdered by God.

[reality man]

I was online talking with a friend from America just now, and we discussed this killing of the first borns , as mentioned in the bible. In her younger days this American lady was very much a Christian. She more or less predicted the kind of responses I'd likely get from Christians over this issue. As such, I can only sit here and observe your hipocrasy Miracles. If I'm being told to respect your beliefs, I'd rather not bother posting anymore. It makes a mockery of reason to have to be labelled a hater, merely for pointing out stuff that simply doesn't add up. Can you actually put together a reasoned response, rather than try to ignore the issue? How do you believe in a God that is a baby slayer????????????????????????? I don't care how righteous this God thought it was, it is not acceptable by decent people that a creator should exist that performs such actions. And therefore, I consider the bible not to be the Word of God.

Find me a context, Miracles, where this God can righteously slay babies.
I'd like all the Christians that ever read this, and that have children, to look at their kids and ask how they'd feel if one of those children were murdered by God.

Tannah,

Please don't stop posting because of one like miracles = his beliefs are the greatest form of hypnosis I think I have ever encountered (apart from the hypnosis my dad is enmeshed in).

He he stereotypical of those hypocritical religious nuts who would kill us all to protect his treasured hypnosis - he is completely asleep and nothing will ever wake him up. Look at how he insults everyone and calls us fools - who could take such a person seriously at all. I'm pretty sure he will respond to this by trying to abuse me, but I ignore him now, as I ignore ALL sleepwalkers.

[reality man]

I dont get angry, I get annoyed when people misquote the bible and use the bible wrongly for their own beliefs, regardless as to whether people think the bible is true, it is still the bible and deserves to be quoted in context if at all by unbelivers in it.

EG Bible girl has set up a thread statingthat he bible teaches Reincarnation, thats the biggest lie under the sun, and many deluded fools in here are buyingit. I detest that sort of thing. Oh and then I get accused for being a troll and to "ram it" when I disagree on the thread. Pathetic isnt it? Yes it is.

Miracles? Yeah right!

You talk of misquoting the bible? HA! - my oh my, how blind you are!

I my friend do not BELIEVE anything at all - I am a reality man, not an airy fairy man! I deal in facts and realizations - not dreams!

I wonder did your Jesus refer to others as being "deluded fools"? I don't think so - and I also think he would despair of you!

[manxboz]

Look stop picking on mircles and God slaying babies, he has explained this to you before but you don't except it. Leave people to believe what they want, yes tell them your views but respect their faith and they will respect you.

[tannah]

Look stop picking on mircles and God slaying babies, he has explained this to you before but you don't except it. Leave people to believe what they want, yes tell them your views but respect their faith and they will respect you.

Does that include respecting pedophile priests then? If one turns up here , will we be really disrespectful if we show that person that his belief sucks?
I would respect Miracles a lot more if he had acted a little bit more human himself. As it is, I'm at a low ebb with his attitude. If I find he starts replying with a little bit more reason, I will revert to how I'd rather discuss things with others, by mutual respect. It's up to him. He will basically shit on any effort I make, and have made.

Sure, if this was about red being better than blue, I guess we'd be right to show respect. But this isn't about that. It's a little bit more danger filled than that. If Miracles likes coming here, it isn't to respect me or others that question the bible. And I'm still waiting for a Christian with real reason to start showing me how there could possibly exist a God that would cause so much pain to countless parents and simply wipe out their first borns.
Come on man, it's a silly tale, written to create a sense of righteousness for a particular culture. We're better than that.

[manxboz]

No i didn't say respect the priests but it's only fair to respect the belief. I believe God didn't cause all this pain and suffering. It's like the Son who grew up and left home and became a real nasty person, it's not the Father's fault he's like that is it. Look just show some respect and i bet you'll get resepect back. It's good you have views and opinions but it isn't right to shove them in faces of the oppersition, you should do it tactfully.

[reality man]

Does that include respecting pedophile priests then? If one turns up here , will we be really disrespectful if we show that person that his belief sucks?
I would respect Miracles a lot more if he had acted a little bit more human himself. As it is, I'm at a low ebb with his attitude. If I find he starts replying with a little bit more reason, I will revert to how I'd rather discuss things with others, by mutual respect. It's up to him. He will basically shit on any effort I make, and have made.

Sure, if this was about red being better than blue, I guess we'd be right to show respect. But this isn't about that. It's a little bit more danger filled than that. If Miracles likes coming here, it isn't to respect me or others that question the bible. And I'm still waiting for a Christian with real reason to start showing me how there could possibly exist a God that would cause so much pain to countless parents and simply wipe out their first borns.
Come on man, it's a silly tale, written to create a sense of righteousness for a particular culture. We're better than that.


Tannah, the bible is a whole lot of old bullshit. At times I quote it to these bible thumpers becasue I know they aint got any backup for it, apart from thier constant repetition about me being a "heathen sinning unbeliever".

God doesn't cause pain because God is an energy within us all (I'm guessing you know that already anyway). The pain is caused by airy fairy nut job religious maniacs who want to shove thier crap down everyones throat. You know that too - I know!

You or I, will never get through to miracles or any of his blind sort. I would suggest you give up trying and spend your time with those who show a glimmer of hope.

[miracles]

I was online talking with a friend from America just now, and we discussed this killing of the first borns , as mentioned in the bible. In her younger days this American lady was very much a Christian. She more or less predicted the kind of responses I'd likely get from Christians over this issue. As such, I can only sit here and observe your hipocrasy Miracles. If I'm being told to respect your beliefs, I'd rather not bother posting anymore. It makes a mockery of reason to have to be labelled a hater, merely for pointing out stuff that simply doesn't add up. Can you actually put together a reasoned response, rather than try to ignore the issue? How do you believe in a God that is a baby slayer????????????????????????? I don't care how righteous this God thought it was, it is not acceptable by decent people that a creator should exist that performs such actions. And therefore, I consider the bible not to be the Word of God.

Find me a context, Miracles, where this God can righteously slay babies.
I'd like all the Christians that ever read this, and that have children, to look at their kids and ask how they'd feel if one of those children were murdered by God.

I already have, you ignored it. I dont call you hater, you can belive whatever you like. I find it funny how everyone mentions me in nearly every post in here though. What am I public enemy number one or what? Im a christian, Ilove people and preach the good news. You people are so blind you cant even see that. When the NWO takes over, christians will be the first to be excecuted, So I dont know what all the fuss is about, we wont be around for long. l

[dedicate]

The NWO has already taken over. And the first religion to get the axe seems to be Islam. Maybe the NWO will go after Christians too, but not until the West has been pretty much desimated with war/famine/disease or whatever. And before the Christians, --- maybe the "Truthers" as they are called, anyone who speaks up against the NWO. And don't forget the homosexuals who always seem to be a good target.

And as for the question why God would have Israel kill babies,, it was answered by the "Christian". If the answer isn't good enough, then maybe that is your problem. I don't know, but seems to me, no answer would be good enough from certain perspectives.

[tannah]

I already have, you ignored it. I dont call you hater, you can belive whatever you like. I find it funny how everyone mentions me in nearly every post in here though. What am I public enemy number one or what? Im a christian, Ilove people and preach the good news. You people are so blind you cant even see that. When the NWO takes over, christians will be the first to be excecuted, So I dont know what all the fuss is about, we wont be around for long. l

You're not an enemy, you've made yourself notorious by the quality of your posts.

Maybe it was the NWO that killed the first borns of Egypt and then blamed God for it? Careful though, because then the good news you think you stand for is a bit crooked here and there.

Actually I do think I know what good news is. That's why I disagree about the bible, and of course any other book that would make the mistaken claim of being God's word. That disagreement is exceedingly good news. It liberates me. Instead of trusting a textual report, I trusted the inner witness.

[dedicate]

Right. The Good news was taught to the Jews who were tied down to material beliefs (did you know Jews did not believe in life after death) and endless ritual with no benefit. Jesus brought the good news that we are of the spirit (the Father) we don't die (the resurrection) and the mode of religion he offered was for us to love one another. Good news.

The Good News is not,, Jesus died for our sins, believe in him and go to eternal heaven. Even though in some sense this is true, and it is good news, this is something that one must discover on one's own on a personal level and relate to it on that level, if at all. It is not something that can just be told to someone and understood easily.

Making too much out of the later, does not seem to be the way to go with promoting your religion. One may have to find out where the other is at and lead them gently onto the bigger pictures. -- you know, showing them the way one step at a time. But this takes a good reasoning mind, not emotionalism. Fundamentalism is based on emotionalism.

[biblegirl]

I dont get angry, I get annoyed when people misquote the bible and use the bible wrongly for their own beliefs, regardless as to whether people think the bible is true, it is still the bible and deserves to be quoted in context if at all by unbelivers in it.

EG Bible girl has set up a thread statingthat he bible teaches Reincarnation, thats the biggest lie under the sun, and many deluded fools in here are buyingit. I detest that sort of thing. Oh and then I get accused for being a troll and to "ram it" when I disagree on the thread. Pathetic isnt it? Yes it is.

Taking the Bible out of context applies when a person is saying it means something other than what it says. The posts I made were as literal as it could possibly be interpreted, so have the courtesy to at least say that I'm taking the Bible "much too literally" if that is the problem you have with me. You don't have to agree with my interpretation of it, but please, leave the false accusations out of it and refrain from mentioning how you feel about me in unrelated threads.

.
Our religious beliefs in particular are fed into our mind as children - they come mainly from OLD BOOKS taught to us by what we percive as being "intelligent" adults. We trust these adults - we think they have all of the answers, and so we allow our uncontaminated mind/awareness to be hypnotised with thier second hand views of life and reality.

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!


What do you all think about this subject?
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My apologies for the above, reality man, just wanted to clear the air since i was mentioned here :).

I do think that some of the best truth we can find is in the ancient wisdom and "old books" :p, just not in context with religion.

You gave some interesting thoughts here about belief and truth. I do wonder if some people create the realities they believe, so I wonder if it's anyone's place to convince them otherwise??? For instance, a catholic can have an NDE in which they see Mary. This will confirm to them that catholicism is the true religion, period. But a muslim person can also have an NDE and see Muhammad, and be likewise convinced that islam is the true religion. How can we tell them otherwise? Who are we to say that what they saw in their NDE, they didn't really see? What is truth for them is not truth for others, yet we are sometimes convinced that we have the truth, the only truth. Factoring in the nature of thoughts and reality as you did in the OP is a smart idea. Interesting discussion :).

[biblegirl]

Right. The Good news was taught to the Jews who were tied down to material beliefs (did you know Jews did not believe in life after death) and endless ritual with no benefit. Jesus brought the good news that we are of the spirit (the Father) we don't die (the resurrection) and the mode of religion he offered was for us to love one another. Good news.

The Good News is not,, Jesus died for our sins, believe in him and go to eternal heaven. Even though in some sense this is true, and it is good news, this is something that one must discover on one's own on a personal level and relate to it on that level, if at all. It is not something that can just be told to someone and understood easily.

excellent post!!! the above concept came from an old book, yet religion has a different story altogether

[miracles]

Taking the Bible out of context applies when a person is saying it means something other than what it says. The posts I made were as literal as it could possibly be interpreted, so have the courtesy to at least say that I'm taking the Bible "much too literally" if that is the problem you have with me. You don't have to agree with my interpretation of it, but please, leave the false accusations out of it and refrain from mentioning how you feel about me in unrelated threads.


:).

You have posted scriptures word for word, and then implied they mean something else with question marks after your implications?

I adressed each of the scriptures you posted, and you then accused me of insiulting you, and made no comment about my post other than that. I then get accused of being a troll by others on there and to ram it. I can live with that, but not with perversions of the scripture.

So; you have not taken the scripture literally at all, you have interpreted them with your bent to suggest scripture teaches reincarnation. You are entitled to believe in reincarnation, but you are not entitled to twist, no obliterate, the holy scripture into meaning something it does not.

It may seem like a slightly funny and unusual concept to you that Christians know their bibles and fully grasp and understand the religion they have devoted the best part of their lives too. Reincarnation is no part of it. Thank you and good day.

[miracles]

You're not an enemy, you've made yourself notorious by the quality of your posts.

Maybe it was the NWO that killed the first borns of Egypt and then blamed God for it? Careful though, because then the good news you think you stand for is a bit crooked here and there.

Actually I do think I know what good news is. That's why I disagree about the bible, and of course any other book that would make the mistaken claim of being God's word. That disagreement is exceedingly good news. It liberates me. Instead of trusting a textual report, I trusted the inner witness.

Good for you stop arguing with me then. We do not agree, end of story.

[miracles]

You're not a real Christian. You're a fascist. And your behavior is transparent to the rest of us.

That's why we point it out and that's why we call you a troll.

You don't love anyone, miracles, you don't preach any 'good news' or anything relevant to Christ. *shrug* You're just another burden to the very religion you claim to support.

Burden to this forum as well.

Speak for yourself troll, your not the high and mighty spokesperon for this forum like you think you are. Ive reported you for trolling me again. Im sick of you. Your just a nasty bit of work.

[tannah]

Jesus brought the good news that we are of the spirit (the Father) we don't die (the resurrection) and the mode of religion he offered was for us to love one another. Good news.


That's how the bible ended up portraying it. But I also suggest Jesus would have been aware of the mother/father creative principle, as he was of the Essenes.


The Good News is not,, Jesus died for our sins, believe in him and go to eternal heaven.

Although Heaven is an inner experience. It isn't so much one goes there, but one recognizes their true self through the example of Love and good actions towards one's neighbour. The greatest thing a friend can do is to die for you. Firemen do that all the time in the name of serving others. Jesus also did this, but it wasn't part of some carefully scripted plan. A master incarnated and showed what it meant to be one with God, and also the price that it would entail in a world dominated by the Romans at the time, as well as the corrupt religious leaders of his own culture.

I'm also glad you brought up emotionalism, because I have come to recognize that the highest love is not an emotion, but an action based work of otherness. If you want to experience God in this dimension, go and serve a nice cup of hot tea to a homeless person sometime, and do it because you care baout that person, and not because it is a ticket to some heaven out there. Experience otherness, it isn't so much a wonderful emotional feeling. It is a sense of purpose and a default state of being, sharing your shirt with someone more needy than yourself, putting them up if they have no where to live.

It isn't as though God is watching these actions and scribbling your score down on a piece of paper. These actions themselves are the doorway through to your higher self awareness. Practice them and you will be walking the path. No ritual comes anywhere close to that action.

[metacomet]

You have posted scriptures word for word, and then implied they mean something else with question marks after your implications?


What is your problem, man?

You don't own the bible.

You didn't write the bible.

When someone posts scripture verbatim and then contemplates it's meaning - you are not allowed to say 'no that's wrong.' That's not Christianity, that's fascism.

You were probably a member of the Spanish inquisition in a past life.


I adressed each of the scriptures ypu posted
Like an asshole.

and you then accused me of insiulting you

Because you did.

, and made no comment about my post other than that.

She humored you more than any of us are willing to, you should be grateful she even invited you into her thread - when all you did was throw mud at it.

I then get accused of being a troll by others on there and to ram it.

Because you are a troll - mentioning other peoples threads and discussing them in threads that are unrelated is called trolling. You should ram it, but marpat is the one who told you to, and you've been stomping around crying about it ever since.

How old are you?

I can live with that, but not with perversions of the scripture.

You obviously can't live with any of it because all you've been doing is moping and dragging your sore butt into other threads.

So; you have not taken the scripture literally at all, you have interpreted them with your bent to suggest scripture teaches reincarnation.

More than a few people, biblical scholars, have come to the same conclusions. Just because you can run off to your fundamentalist archives and copy paste some half-ass rebuttal doesn't mean anything, miracles. You failed in that thread and now you're failing in this one.

You are entitled to believe in reincarnation, but you are not entitled to twist, no obliterate, the holy scripture into meaning something it does not.


Why don't you just say how you really feel?

Nobody is entitled to think anything different from yourself... after all, you wrote the bible, you are it's owner and master.

It may seem like a slightly funny and unusual concept to you that Christians know the their bibles and fully grasp and understand the religion they have devoted the best part of their lives too.

You're so fucking dense that you can't even see that her name is biblegirl. Who are you to say that she doesn't have knowledge of the bible or that she hasn't devoted her life to it?

Again, miracles, You are not a real Christian. You are a way-layer and a thorn in the side of those who seek to honestly study the words of Christ.

It is people like you that Jesus ended up flipping tables over. Don't you get it? You don't own the key to anything, you are not an authority on the bible, and you are not permitted to act like an ass on this forum without being told to 'ram it'.

So, ram it.

Thank you and good day.

You'll be back here in 30 seconds.

[tannah]

Good for you stop arguing with me then. We do not agree, end of story.

This is a forum Miracles. People post things and others respond. If you say something I am not in agreement with it generally results in my mistakenly thinking that this time you'll exercise some reason in your responses, not blindly stick up for your mighty book. Try qualifying why the book is right, by using reason. Reason triumphs all things, and a wise person will be swayed by it.

[miracles]

What is your problem, man?

You don't own the bible.

You didn't write the bible.

When someone posts scripture verbatim and then contemplates it's meaning - you are not allowed to say 'no that's wrong.' That's not Christianity, that's fascism.

You were probably a member of the Spanish inquisition in a past life.


Like an asshole.



Because you did.



She humored you more than any of us are willing to, you should be grateful she even invited you into her thread - when all you did was throw mud at it.



Because you are a troll - mentioning other peoples threads and discussing them in threads that are unrelated is called trolling. You should ram it, but marpat is the one who told you to, and you've been stomping around crying about it ever since.

How old are you?



You obviously can't live with any of it because all you've been doing is moping and dragging your sore butt into other threads.


More than a few people, biblical scholars, have come to the same conclusions. Just because you can run off to your fundamentalist archives and copy paste some half-ass rebuttal doesn't mean anything, miracles. You failed in that thread and now you're failing in this one.



Why don't you just say how you really feel?

Nobody is entitled to think anything different from yourself... after all, you wrote the bible, you are it's owner and master.


You're so fucking dense that you can't even see that her name is biblegirl. Who are you to say that she doesn't have knowledge of the bible or that she hasn't devoted her life to it?

Again, miracles, You are not a real Christian. You are a way-layer and a thorn in the side of those who seek to honestly study the words of Christ.

It is people like you that Jesus ended up flipping tables over. Don't you get it? You don't own the key to anything, you are not an authority on the bible, and you are not permitted to act like an ass on this forum without being told to 'ram it'.

So, ram it.



You'll be back here in 30 seconds.

My problem is you your a big head. I feel great. How do you feel?

[metacomet]

My problem is you your a big head.

:confused:

You didn't even read my post. Again.

You're so angry and frothing at the mouth that you just read the first line and jump straight to a response.

Now let me sit back and wait for you to make a massive edit to your post...

Oh! There's one.

[miracles]

:confused:

You didn't even read my post. Again.

You're so angry and frothing at the mouth that you just read the first line and jump straight to a response.

Now let me sit back and wait for you to make a massive edit to your post...

Oh! There's one.
:D Do you think I waste time on your bile? Im chuckling my nut off at you. In between reporting you for abuse.

[metacomet]

:D Do you think I waste time on your bile? Im chuckling my nut off at you.

Dude, if you're not going to read my posts, stop quoting them.

You even admit that you don't read my posts and then you quote them, filling page space and wasting everyone's time.

I stuck you to the wall on page 3 and I am not surprised that you're too much of a coward to stomach it.

But seriously, you are a troll and this forum doesn't need you.

[miracles]

Dude, if you're not going to read my posts, stop quoting them.

You even admit that you don't read my posts and then you quote them, filling page space and wasting everyone's time.

I stuck you to the wall on page 3 and I am not surprised that you're too much of a coward to stomach it.

But seriously, you are a troll and this forum doesn't need you.

Im a christian and you hate me, just be honest and stop speaking on behalf of the forum please. Start a "vote me off the forum thread" and if you get twenty yeses, I will leave. There's agood boy. off you trot.

[metacomet]

Im a christian and you hate me, just be honest and stop speaking on behalf of the forum please. Start a "vote me off the forum thread" and if you get twenty yeses, I will leave. There's agood boy. off you trot.

I already explained to you that you're not a real christian. You're a pharisee and a snake. You use your devotion to the bible as a weapon against others, poking them in the chest and trying to intimidate them out of open discussion of the scripture.

You are a curse to your religion, miracles, and this forum would vote you off within a matter of minutes, only to have you spew your tantrum in that thread as well.

I'm done replying to you. Please stop wasting the moderators time 'reporting me'... they of all people know not to take you seriously.

And now, anyone who is coming into this thread, having seen how we in here have handled you, will know just as well. ;)

[dedicate]

Maybe we don't all want to see you go, but I for one would like to see you grow. And maybe you have to some degree. What do I know about mustard seeds and their rate of growth, eh?

One thing you have mentioned that was interesting just today was that you are married to a Buddhist. Now I wouldn't have expected that. Like saying you are married to a Tarot card reader or Wiccan, seems to me. What's it like being married to a person who you know you will never see again after this life?

[miracles]

Maybe we don't all want to see you go, but I for one would like to see you grow. And maybe you have to some degree. What do I know about mustard seeds and their rate of growth, eh?

One thing you have mentioned that was interesting just today was that you are married to a Buddhist. Now I wouldn't have expected that. Like saying you are married to a Tarot card reader or Wiccan, seems to me. What's it like being married to a person who you know you will never see again after this life?

Well she was a buhdist, she is a christian now. he he he. God bless you. Grow into what by the way, a freelance pick and chose spiritualist? The bible is the word of God, I dont need anything else. I am growing every day.

[miracles]

I already explained to you that you're not a real christian. You're a pharisee and a snake. You use your devotion to the bible as a weapon against others, poking them in the chest and trying to intimidate them out of open discussion of the scripture.

You are a curse to your religion, miracles, and this forum would vote you off within a matter of minutes, only to have you spew your tantrum in that thread as well.

I'm done replying to you. Please stop wasting the moderators time 'reporting me'... they of all people know not to take you seriously.

And now, anyone who is coming into this thread, having seen how we in here have handled you, will know just as well. ;)


Well why dont you start a "get rid of miracles thread" to vote me off? I promise I will leave if at least 20 people want me gone no arguments. Im not the one who has a hissy fit every two seconds.


Simple put your big mouth to the test.

I will report abusive remarks everytime. I dont really care if moderators ignore the forum guidlines as much as you do.

By the way, I'm about the realist Christian your ever likely to come across in your life.

Funny I thought I would have been voted off by now. Already I have one vote who doesnt want me gone. Nice.

I recall your the bloke who started a thread dissing your best mate for life in public telling us all what a total ashole he was and how brilliant you where for putting up with him. Your barely a human being.

PS. the bible is a sword, a weapon againts lies. And it never goes blunt.

[tannah]

PS. the bible is a sword, a weapon againts lies. And it never goes blunt.

So the Aztecs came to find out as the real swords killed them in droves. Well, the Spanish Catholics were disgusted with them lying Aztecs and their fake Gods right miracles? What else could they do but kill 'em for Jesus. They refused to worship the one and only, I mean, it's only just to bring an early grave to them, right Miracles? Just like when Pharoah told Moses to fuck off, right? So Moses did, and took his smelly mates with him, and later fabricated a scornful tale about how his mighty God killed all of the Egyptian first borns. Geez, you bloody children! If it wasn't so blood stained it would be funny.

Parted the Red sea indeed.

[miracles]

So the Aztecs came to find out as the real swords killed them in droves. Well, the Spanish Catholics were disgusted with them lying Aztecs and their fake Gods right miracles? What else could they do but kill 'em for Jesus. They refused to worship the one and only, I mean, it's only just to bring an early grave to them, right Miracles? Just like when Pharoah told Moses to fuck off, right? So Moses did, and took his smelly mates with him, and later fabricated a scornful tale about how his mighty God killed all of the Egyptian first borns. Geez, you bloody children! If it wasn't so blood stained it would be funny.

Cathoilcs are not Chrstians. They are Catholics.

How is the gas chamber you are building coming along for the smelly jews?

[tannah]

Cathoilcs are not Chrstians. They are Catholics.

How is the gas chamber you are building coming along for the smelly jews?

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, another cocky comment from our resident one and only only he is a christian Miracle man.:D Sweet.

So basically Protestants killed Catholics in Northern Ireland becuase , hey let's face it, they weren't Christians. Doesn't the Catholic bible have Exodus in it then? I mean, aren't they allowed to share in the tale about God and the Egyptian first borns?

Man, I just realized. if the Catholics aren't Christian, OMG, that means Heaven is going to have a lot of vacancies, as a lot of the world is Catholic.


Yes, the chamber I'm building, funnily enough, is a hell propellant...ooops repellant

[miracles]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, another cocky comment from our resident one and only only he is a christian Miracle man.:D Sweet.

So basically Protestants killed Catholics in Northern Ireland becuase , hey let's face it, they weren't Christians. Doesn't the Catholic bible have Exodus in it then? I mean, aren't they allowed to share in the tale about God and the Egyptian first borns?

Man, I just realized. if the Catholics aren't Christian, OMG, that means Heaven is going to have a lot of vacancies, as a lot of the world is Catholic.


Yes, the chamber I'm building, funnily enough, is a hell propellant...ooops repellant


FEMA trains with ...GUILLOTINES in the general threads section.

Check out this thread to see what you and yours have got planned for me and mine. Its time to get real pal. Im from Northern Ireland, dont talk to me about another topic you know nothing about, it will just be another half assed wise guy talk fest.

[tannah]

FEMA trains with ...GUILLOTINES in the general threads section.

Check out this thread to see what you and yours have got planned for me and mine. Its time to get real pal. Im from Northern Ireland, dont talk to me about another topic you know nothing about, it will just be another have assed wise guy talk fest.

Me and mine? Is that how you'll justify lashing out wiff yer sword then?
Nothing more distasteful than a wise guy saying "you know nothing about blah blah".

Answer the question about Catholics and Exodus, and a practically empty heaven.

Miracles, get help man.

So, having read about this coming martial law, which is no surprise to me actually, why do you get the impression it will only be used against christians? And why would you associate me with such a martial law?

I'll tell you about getting real. if the people have the sense to wake up and stop reading fairty tales, they may take power into their own hands and stand up to the corruption in this world.

[miracles]

Me and mine? Is that how you'll justify lashing out wiff yer sword then?
Nothing more distasteful than a wise guy saying "you know nothing about blah blah".

Answer the question about Catholics and Exodus, and a practically empty heaven.

Miracles, get help man.

So, having read about this coming martial law, which is no surprise to me actually, why do you get the impression it will only be used against christians? And why would you associate me with such a martial law?

I'll tell you about getting real. if the people have the sense to wake up and stop reading fairty tales, they may take power into their own hands and stand up to the corruption in this world.

It wasnt a question it was a pathetic unlearned ill-informed silly statement with a question mark after it. I have all the help I need. You get help.

PS. back on ignore, all the help I need.

[dedicate]

Just grow up.

"Pick and choose"-- if I had a nickle for every time I've heard that one. Every person bent on their own religious ideas, blaimes others of picking and choosing. Way I see it, there is no other way, and all those that label other than their way as "picking and choosing" are making the ol' ploy of dismissing without thought.

Yes, it is all about picking and choosing. -- though a smug and condescending way of saying it. That is what you and all people are called to do. Make the right choice. Pick the right road.

Worst is, people who say what you just said, are the worst at it. They pick and choose as THEY LIKE and it's usually the wrong thing and then tell others "You can't pick and choose". - (What they are really saying is, "You have to believe what I say you have to believe.-- you can't pick and choose, let me do that for you.")


"Catholics are not Christian". I can't believe you said that.

[miracles]

just grow up.

"pick and choose"-- if i had a nickle for every time i've heard that one. Every person bent on their own religious ideas, blaimes others of picking and choosing. Way i see it, there is no other way, and all those that label other than their way as "picking and choosing" are making the ol' ploy of dismissing without thought.

Yes, it is all about picking and choosing. -- though a smug and condescending way of saying it. That is what you and all people are called to do. Make the right choice. Pick the right road.

Worst is, people who say what you just said, are the worst at it. They pick and choose as they like and it's usually the wrong thing and then tell others "you can't pick and choose". - (what they are really saying is, "you have to believe what i say you have to believe.-- you can't pick and choose, let me do that for you.")


"catholics are not christian". I can't believe you said that.

huh?

[reality man]

A message for everyone,

Miracles is turning this forum into a shambles - a place for him to spew his hatred of all those who HE has deemed to be heathens etc. His bigotry towards catholics in particular is quite striking, I came from the catholic religion and though I no longer agree with them, I still see them as christians.

Miracles, I have never encountered your equal - my suggestion to everyone would be to simply put him on ignore - thats what i'm now going to do, since he is obviously lacking in many ways.

[miracles]

A message for everyone,

Miracles is turning this forum into a shambles - a place for him to spew his hatred of all those who HE has deemed to be heathens etc. His bigotry towards catholics in particular is quite striking, I came from the catholic religion and though I no longer agree with them, I still see them as christians.

Miracles, I have never encountered your equal - my suggestion to everyone would be to simply put him on ignore - thats what i'm now going to do, since he is obviously lacking in many ways.

Well they arent Christians, and your right this place has turned into a shambles, not because of me though. Its a freaken miracles hate fest in here. I must be doing something right. Excellent. Turning the world upside down, thats what its all about coz it's the wrong way up.

[reality man]

.


I will kick start this forum with a question.

When I say to you, that ALL of your beliefs are not true, what do you feel or think? Do you get angry or irritated, or are you indifferent?

Well then, read on a little - let's see where this all takes us ....



Many people throughout time have fought over beliefs - of who is right and who is wrong concerning beliefs, beliefs and more beliefs.

Yet what is belief anyway, but mere thought swirling around a mind which does not know reality - like a dream at night - no one ever questions the so called "reality" of a dream whilst one is having it - No - it is only when we awaken from the dream that we know that our dream/thought/belief was not reality.

Our religious beliefs in particular are fed into our mind as children - they come mainly from OLD BOOKS taught to us by what we percive as being "intelligent" adults. We trust these adults - we think they have all of the answers, and so we allow our uncontaminated mind/awareness to be hypnotised with thier second hand views of life and reality.

As adults we do not question our religious beliefs due to the sticky manner in which they soil our mind and awareness. We see the dream of religion and we see its books and its structures, and it puts up a very convincing illusion (just like the night time dream does). As a result - all we see is our belief and nothing will ever make us see the truth, whilst we hold a belief up in front of our eyes instead.

Other forms of belief saturate our awarenss too - beliefs about who or what we are - where we came from - where we are headed. When we say the words "I am a ..." - we usually finish up with a mere belief (a thought) about who or what we are, and not the reality of what we truly are.

Some of us move away from organized relgion into the new age philosophies - we think we are radicals or seekers after truths by doing this - but are we really? Are we not just swapping the old belief system for a "newer" or more trendy belief system instead? Are we not still obscuring our true reality with an even trickier form of belief - a form of belief which actually makes us BELIEVE that we do know the truth of our inner being and reality - when we actually don't?

I say that no belief is true, simply because belief comes from thought - we usually have no evidence of our beliefs, but some of us would gladly start a war to uphold and project them anyway - if we do find some evidence, whether physical eveidence or experiential evidence within our own awareness to confirm what we believed to be true - well then - our beliefs are no longer beliefs, but have then been transformed into realities/truths/certainties.

What I wonder, would happen if we ever cleared our awareness of our beliefs/thoughts/dreams and allowed the perception of reality to arise in our awareness instead? You see - our beliefs obscure the reality of what is!

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!


What do you all think about this subject?




.



I'm quoting myself again here - just to get us back onto the subject matter of this forum, since miracles has taken us way off coarse with his bible ramblings and insults.

[biblegirl]

steevo made some good posts here http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79328 about truth being a living, conscious thing...so i guess that's how it can differ from beliefs, which are in essence, thoughts

[miracles]

I'm quoting myself again here - just to get us back onto the subject matter of this forum, since miracles has taken us way off coarse with his bible ramblings and insults.


Is it possible that you and anyone can stop taking about me in their posts? If you have something to say, say it to me directly. It's very rude to speak about me in the third person, whats with that? If you keep this up I will grind you into the ground.

[solarwindspirit]

The NWO has already taken over. And the first religion to get the axe seems to be Islam. Maybe the NWO will go after Christians too, but not until the West has been pretty much desimated with war/famine/disease or whatever. And before the Christians, --- maybe the "Truthers" as they are called, anyone who speaks up against the NWO. And don't forget the homosexuals who always seem to be a good target.

And as for the question why God would have Israel kill babies,, it was answered by the "Christian". If the answer isn't good enough, then maybe that is your problem. I don't know, but seems to me, no answer would be good enough from certain perspectives.

and hype http://esthergarvi.com/2009/04/22/the-famine-scam-documentary-now-available-on-youtube/

do gooders pls know where your money is going

I think that you are catching on. . .it's do unto others before they do unto you . . .the law of their jungle

come on. . .give me a red bozo button. . .I like the truth and have a mind of my own. . .but it was nice to have the intermediary media. . .so we could slice and dice and find out just how credulous it is lol (its all in the dhrama) It really made you think. . .and people still puzzle over it. . .was there really a plane that disappeared into the tower? ok replay again

and no we will never forget. . .bowed low hurt our lions pride


oh my. . .don't give em any ideas. . .pls don't start putting 'real' medieval knights on a checkered board killing each other. . .for us kings and queens. . .I could see them doing it! Their crazy!

whose to blame?

Well it's shaped like a ballon. . .there really is nowhere to point your finger. . .*accept for the seventy two year old man with a two week old finger. . .it's the love of the healer. . .can you imagine he grew inail skin vessels bone nerves back in a couple of weeks. . .(I really think that in ancient times man could do that. . .but wasn't without suffering. . .I"ve seen all kinds of amputees in my life. . .and I remember thinking more than once how wrong this is for some reason, barbaric to shock vessels skin etc to an abrupt halt . . .but today its all we got. . .perhaps man was womans true equal at one time in history . . .who knows what tomorrow holds. . .but as for today. . .its called deevolution) Healing is an innate gentle process that you surrender to. . .

so I believe in miracles

get the flouride out of the water. . .forget medicine vaccines and other profitable drugs. . .go back to the basics of life

[miracles]

and hype http://esthergarvi.com/2009/04/22/the-famine-scam-documentary-now-available-on-youtube/

do gooders pls know where your money is going

I think that you are catching on. . .it's do unto others before they do unto you . . .the law of their jungle

come on. . .give me a red bozo button. . .I like the truth and have a mind of my own. . .but it was nice to have the intermediary media. . .so we could slice and dice and find out just how credulous it is lol (its all in the dhrama)

Good post, thanks. I always had my suspicians about that. Having said that, no one one really gave a stuff any way. Much to my chagrin.

[fromthevoid]

Im a christian and you hate me, just be honest and stop speaking on behalf of the forum please. Start a "vote me off the forum thread" and if you get twenty yeses, I will leave. There's agood boy. off you trot.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with being a Christian. Many of us have been through that phase. And before you tell me it's not a phase, let me point out that the Christianity that is driven by judging others, railing at them incessantly over minor or major points in the Bible actually drive people away from Christianity....that's what did it for me.

Considering we are to love others and treat them as we wish to be treated
(do you not wish to be treated good?)
Considering we are to love our brothers and sisters as ourself
Considering God loves us and has the most perfect love
Consdering the lovingkindness that Jesus exhibited toward the woman at the well
Considering we are told to let our lights shine to bring others to our faith and not to cram it down their throats. Surely you are familiar with This Little Light of Mine?.....a song I joyfully sang in the church.....ony problem was, the church was filled with Judgments, ill will, saying ugly things about other members that are in the congregation that absolutely were not true.

Would I vote you off the forum? In a New York second. But only because when I read your communication, I can feel the hatred and rage jumping out at me and I don't enjoy feeling it. Makes me feel it as if you were in my face shaking your finger at me. And I haven't even joined the conversation yet.

I would ask again, is this really the stuff you want out of life? Referencing treating others as you would be treated---or you reap what you sow. And I care not if you wish to tell me I am taking something from the bible out of context. For I find that the higher spirit, whomever it may be, is faithful and true to assist me when I am in danger. And you are certainly no danger to me. I come from the void of nothingness which is where I ended up once the church got through with me. My relationship with whoever god is, is simply between me and god.....ain't no extra human beings involved in it...period. As a matter of fact, I do not associate myself with Christianity, it is an embarrassment for me. It represents cruelty and hate to me. In my opinion it is an embarrassment to whoever god is.

I also look at what is going on in the world today and a few years back realized that this holy war/oil war that is currently in progress has, has all the earmarks of the same mindset that the old testament is written. It is a barbarian mindset that is cruel to people....One can only imagine why on earth a god would require the 150 or so foreskins of enemies to be allowed to marry someone....go figure.....he was supposedly God's favorite person since time began.....Good o'le King David.

Ok, I'll get off my rant.

Regards,
Nancy

[tannah]

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with being a Christian. Many of us have been through that phase. And before you tell me it's not a phase, let me point out that the Christianity that is driven by judging others, railing at them incessantly over minor or major points in the Bible actually drive people away from Christianity....that's what did it for me.

Considering we are to love others and treat them as we wish to be treated
(do you not wish to be treated good?)
Considering we are to love our brothers and sisters as ourself
Considering God loves us and has the most perfect love
Consdering the lovingkindness that Jesus exhibited toward the woman at the well
Considering we are told to let our lights shine to bring others to our faith and not to cram it down their throats. Surely you are familiar with This Little Light of Mine?.....a song I joyfully sang in the church.....ony problem was, the church was filled with Judgments, ill will, saying ugly things about other members that are in the congregation that absolutely were not true.

Would I vote you off the forum? In a New York second. But only because when I read your communication, I can feel the hatred and rage jumping out at me and I don't enjoy feeling it. Makes me feel it as if you were in my face shaking your finger at me. And I haven't even joined the conversation yet.

I would ask again, is this really the stuff you want out of life? Referencing treating others as you would be treated---or you reap what you sow. And I care not if you wish to tell me I am taking something from the bible out of context. For I find that the higher spirit, whomever it may be, is faithful and true to assist me when I am in danger. And you are certainly no danger to me. I come from the void of nothingness which is where I ended up once the church got through with me. My relationship with whoever god is, is simply between me and god.....ain't no extra human beings involved in it...period. As a matter of fact, I do not associate myself with Christianity, it is an embarrassment for me. It represents cruelty and hate to me. In my opinion it is an embarrassment to whoever god is.

I also look at what is going on in the world today and a few years back realized that this holy war/oil war that is currently in progress has, has all the earmarks of the same mindset that the old testament is written. It is a barbarian mindset that is cruel to people....One can only imagine why on earth a god would require the 150 or so foreskins of enemies to be allowed to marry someone....go figure.....he was supposedly God's favorite person since time began.....Good o'le King David.

Ok, I'll get off my rant.

Regards,
Nancy

Excellent post, straight to the heart of the matter.

[reality man]

I have found that beliefs tend to hypnotise people so much in some cases, that they cannot see the error of thier ways. Some may claim to be christian, but all they have is WORDS, beliefs and bible quotes....

...Where is the love to back up those words?

In a mind saturated with BELIEFS/hypnosis, we are capable of meting out all manner of hate, bigotry, injustice, and most importantly (as we have seen from some) absolute blind hypocrisy!

A sleeping mind does not know reality - it only knows the thoughts it has ABOUT reality. A sleeping mind only knows what it believes and so it will fight and argue for what it believes - because to that mind, what it believes is the truth. A sleeping mind is to be viewed with pity, because it is completely lost without realizing that it is lost. It doesn't know that it can experience the truth of reality first hand without the need to believe. Well - if I can see it, then I need not believe it anymore???

I think these forums teach us one thing - In a world without belief, we would all live in peace and unity!

[fromthevoid]

A sleeping mind does not know reality - it only knows the thoughts it has ABOUT reality. A sleeping mind only knows what it believes and so it will fight and argue for what it believes - because to that mind, what it believes is the truth. A sleeping mind is to be viewed with pity, because it is completely lost without realizing that it is lost. It doesn't know that it can experience the truth of reality first hand without the need to believe. Well - if I can see it, then I need not believe it anymore???

I think these forums teach us one thing - In a world without belief, we would all live in peace and unity!


I swear this one makes my head swim. Every time I think of something to say, I always loop back to if nothing you see or think is reality then I have parameters that I cannot conform to. I big on non-conforming :-)

But I'll go with the assumption that some of what I call my awakening was real. Since it is abnormal, it must be real. Twisted kind of thinking, I know.

My reaction to someone telling me that nothing I believe is real would be more of, you could be right, you could be wrong. Aren't we just wing'in it through our spiritual lives? How the heck do I know what is truly real. I do, however, allow for possibility. Stepping through a door, which for all appearances opens into a very dark casm...you allow for possibility and you're not often falling in the dark, if at all.

Oh yes, never fear.....someone some where would come up with something different to control the masses if you took religion out of the equation. Hillel was a teacher I think in older Jewish times. I read a book about him once and he said something to the effect of when the Christ thing happened, it was an opportune time to take religion to its next stage.

[reality man]

I'll go with the assumption that some of what I call my awakening was real. Since it is abnormal, it must be real. Twisted kind of thinking, I know.

My reaction to someone telling me that nothing I believe is real would be more of, you could be right, you could be wrong. Aren't we just wing'in it through our spiritual lives? How the heck do I know what is truly real. I do, however, allow for possibility. Stepping through a door, which for all appearances opens into a very dark casm...you allow for possibility and you're not often falling in the dark, if at all.

Hi fromthevoid,

My point is that beliefs are thoughts, and you are right - they could be right or they could be wrong. But what if we could literally go beyond belief? What if we could be certain? What if we could actually percieve a reality which is untouched by thought - a reality where only truth abides - where we need no longer believe, because we have our first hand experience/evidence of that reality? What if we could experience our own spirit and the spirit which flows through all life? Well then, that would be our proof - and our belief in a spirit/God would then be transformed into a knowing reality and truth (well, for us anyway).......But what if the whole world could experience this ... by moving beyond belief into the realm of experience instead?

Without thought to interpret the reality we face - then we would percieve life as it is - in its purity (uncontaminated by thought and belief). What if we looked, listened, felt life NOW AS IT IS -and did not interpret it with our beliefs and thoughts? What I wonder would we see? Would it be possible that we would then see what we have called God (the source/life/energy of all)?

If I can see you - then I need not believe that you exist - I need not speculate, argue or philosphize about what you are, or what you are like - because I see you and I hear you etc. So, What do you say???

[miracles]

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with being a Christian. Many of us have been through that phase. And before you tell me it's not a phase, let me point out that the Christianity that is driven by judging others, railing at them incessantly over minor or major points in the Bible actually drive people away from Christianity....that's what did it for me.

Considering we are to love others and treat them as we wish to be treated
(do you not wish to be treated good?)
Considering we are to love our brothers and sisters as ourself
Considering God loves us and has the most perfect love
Consdering the lovingkindness that Jesus exhibited toward the woman at the well
Considering we are told to let our lights shine to bring others to our faith and not to cram it down their throats. Surely you are familiar with This Little Light of Mine?.....a song I joyfully sang in the church.....ony problem was, the church was filled with Judgments, ill will, saying ugly things about other members that are in the congregation that absolutely were not true.

Would I vote you off the forum? In a New York second. But only because when I read your communication, I can feel the hatred and rage jumping out at me and I don't enjoy feeling it. Makes me feel it as if you were in my face shaking your finger at me. And I haven't even joined the conversation yet.

I would ask again, is this really the stuff you want out of life? Referencing treating others as you would be treated---or you reap what you sow. And I care not if you wish to tell me I am taking something from the bible out of context. For I find that the higher spirit, whomever it may be, is faithful and true to assist me when I am in danger. And you are certainly no danger to me. I come from the void of nothingness which is where I ended up once the church got through with me. My relationship with whoever god is, is simply between me and god.....ain't no extra human beings involved in it...period. As a matter of fact, I do not associate myself with Christianity, it is an embarrassment for me. It represents cruelty and hate to me. In my opinion it is an embarrassment to whoever god is.

I also look at what is going on in the world today and a few years back realized that this holy war/oil war that is currently in progress has, has all the earmarks of the same mindset that the old testament is written. It is a barbarian mindset that is cruel to people....One can only imagine why on earth a god would require the 150 or so foreskins of enemies to be allowed to marry someone....go figure.....he was supposedly God's favorite person since time began.....Good o'le King David.

Ok, I'll get off my rant.

Regards,
Nancy

It not realistic to suggest I am driving people away from Christianity who already hate christianity and the bible. If anyone has driven peopel away from Christianity in this place, it's David Icke. Not me.

The bible talks about many people who believe the word for a while then it is strangled and they walk away because of the cares of the world. Many are called but not many have the bollocks to walk the thin line. Just becuase you went through a "phase" doesnt mean anything at all to me.

Jesus was told to get lost almost everywhere he went and eventually murdered. I guess they where going through a phase huh? Pfffft!

PS I treat others in here exactly the way they treat me. So get of your judgmental high horse please Phase Christian.

Thanks for joing in the "I hate miracles conversation" by the way, nice to have another fan. I look forward to you returning to the void after your latest phase. While your here, set up "the vote me off thread" and if you get 20 votes will gladly and delightedly leave ths place.

[tannah]

It not realistic to suggest I am driving people away from Christianity who already hate christianity and the bible. If anyone has driven peopel away from Christianity in this place, it's David Icke. Not me.

The bible talks about many people who believe the word for a while then it is strangled and they walk away because of the cares of the world. Many are called but not many have the bollocks to walk the thin line. Just becuase you went through a "phase" doesnt mean anything at all to me.

Jesus was told to get lost almost everywhere he went and eventually murdered. I guess they where going through a phase huh? Pfffft!

PS I treat others in here exactly the way they treat me. So get of your judgmental high horse please Phase Christian.

Thanks for joing in the "I hate miracles conversation" by the way, nice to have another fan. I look forward to you returning to the void after your latest phase. While your here, set up "the vote me off thread" and if you get 20 votes will galdly and delightedly leave ths place.

What a martyr. What a man of respect too. I could learn how to be real tolerent watching a man like Miracles and his approach to people.:D

Just imagine when the fake second coming arrives, and peope like Miracles become soldiers for "God", as he orders the death of all unbelievers. Whaddya reckon then guys, is Miracle's going to do as his "Lord" commands him?

Please don't stab us Miracles, we're good people, and I want to see my baby for a while longer, please don't take her away from us. Put a good word in for us Miracles, my mum ain't well and hell is so lonely. What did we do that was so evil Miracles? Please spare us. Oh great and mighty man of God, we didn't mean to help others and love them, we shouldda been like you I know.

Oh, and bite me.:D

[miracles]

PS. void, you can always put me on ignore which is what Ive done to Tannah. :D

[reality man]

What a martyr. What a man of respect too. I could learn how to be real tolerent watching a man like Miracles and his approach to people.:D

Just imagine when the fake second coming arrives, and peope like Miracles become soldiers for "God", as he orders the death of all unbelievers. Whaddya reckon then guys, is Miracle's going to do as his "Lord" commands him?

Please don't stab us Miracles, we're good people, and I want to see my baby for a while longer, please don't take her away from us. Put a good word in for us Miracles, my mum ain't well and hell is so lonely. What did we do that was so evil Miracles? Please spare us. Oh great and mighty man of God, we didn't mean to help others and love them, we shouldda been like you I know.

Oh, and bite me.:D


Heh Tannah,

There's one possibility that none of us have considered --- maybe miracles is the henchman of "god"? Maybe "god" is like Dr.Evil from Austin Powers, and miracles is like Mini Me - he orchastrates and carries out all of "gods" evil doing - which involves rediculing anyone who does not interpret the bible in the way he does - it also involves calling people names like "heathen" and "sinner" etc...He speaks just like a "true" christian doesn't he ... Jesus would be proud of him!

My oh my ... how I wish I were still spellbound by the trappings of so called "christianity" - then I too could be spellbound by the smokescreen of BELIEF and delude my mind into thinking that my way was the only way too.

[miracles]

PS. void, you can always put me on ignore which is what Ive done to Tannah. :D


hey miracles this Reality man cant stop taking you about you, have you noticed that?

Yes miracles I have noticed that.

Why do you think that is?

Dont know, may be he fancies you?

Ewe yuck. !! :D

Hey Miracles are you schizo?

No.

Neither am I.

I used to be but we're both doing fine now.

Cool so are we.

[reality man]

hey miracles this Reality man cant stop taking you about you, have you noticed that?

Yes miracles I have noticed that.

Why do you think that is?

Dont know, may be he fancies you?

Ewe yuck. !! :D


I think that the above quote from miracles shows exactly the frame of diseased mind he carries ... I s that what your religion has done for you miracles? I am beginning to wonder what age you actually are becasue you are displaying the mindset of a teenager ... Do you have any intellect at all to share with us here .. or is it just going to be more bible and insults???

[miracles]

Hey miracles?

Yeah?

I think your a great bloke, dont let these bastards get you down?

I think your a good bloke too, dont worry I dont, hey one day if you hang in there you might even be as cool as me one day.

Wow really?

Probably not. :D

PS. hey reality girl, try facing up to reality or change your handle.

[reality man]

PS. hey reality girl, try facing up to reality or change your handle.


Now there is a funny post from the good christian bible thumper miracles for a change - try facing up to "reality" - Ha Ha ha ha ha ha !!!

Phew .. I needed that laugh - oh and thanks for more of your "christian" insults there miracles - spread your love my friend ... who knows maybe some of us will then want to join you and be more like you.

[miracles]

Now there is a funny post from the good christian bible thumper miracles for a change - try facing up to "reality" - Ha Ha ha ha ha ha !!!

Phew .. I needed that laugh - oh and thanks for more of your "christian" insults there miracles - spread your love my friend ... who knows maybe some of us will then want to join you and be more like you.

Spreading the truth is spreading love my friend. Its also reality. You dont like insults then stop insulting, you reap what you sew.

[reality man]

Spreading the truth is spreading love my friend. Its also reality. You dont like insults then stop insulting, you reap what you sew.

Blah blah blah - yack yack yack!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[miracles]

Blah blah blah - yack yack yack!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
Great intelligent witty comeback.

[reality man]

Great intelligent witty comeback.

I thought i'd meet you on your own level.

[miracles]

I thought i'd meet you on your own level.

You'd have to jump up to hit bottom mate.

[reality man]

You'd have to jump up to hit bottom mate.

I don't know - all you seem to do is upset people and insult them, so then they insult you back...it's a vicious circle Let's see if we can find out why?

For starters, Why do you feel the need to attack those who interpret the bible differently from you - are you the be all and end all authority on all of its meaning?

Is your version of christianity the true version for example? You have stated that catholicism is not christianty - but we all know that it is.

So perhaps if you explained some of these things you say instead of attacking, insulting and ranting, then we could all engage in sensible conversation once again...and the insults and chilishness would then cease?

[tannah]

Heh Tannah,

There's one possibility that none of us have considered --- maybe miracles is the henchman of "god"? Maybe "god" is like Dr.Evil from Austin Powers, and miracles is like Mini Me - he orchastrates and carries out all of "gods" evil doing - which involves rediculing anyone who does not interpret the bible in the way he does - it also involves calling people names like "heathen" and "sinner" etc...He speaks just like a "true" christian doesn't he ... Jesus would be proud of him!

My oh my ... how I wish I were still spellbound by the trappings of so called "christianity" - then I too could be spellbound by the smokescreen of BELIEF and delude my mind into thinking that my way was the only way too.

Yeah, you were probably like I was, couldn't help being the observer rather than blindly participating.

[metacomet]

I think that the above quote from miracles shows exactly the frame of diseased mind he carries ...

This entire thread,
and many others,
are a testament to his illness.

Sorry he had to derail your thread :rolleyes:.

[miracles]

I don't know - all you seem to do is upset people and insult them, so then they insult you back...it's a vicious circle Let's see if we can find out why?

For starters, Why do you feel the need to attack those who interpret the bible differently from you - are you the be all and end all authority on all of its meaning?

Is your version of christianity the true version for example? You have stated that catholicism is not christianty - but we all know that it is.

So perhaps if you explained some of these things you say instead of attacking, insulting and ranting, then we could all engage in sensible conversation once again...and the insults and chilishness would then cease?

well booh hoo hooo, they can put me on ignore which is what I have to do to the ones who insult and upset me. Any one who is worth his salt and has done his research knows that catholism is one of the most evil cults in the world. It is not true christianity, your an infant anylist mate, stop whinning. The pope is leading the One World Religion movement for the UN, get you fact right and stop being a liar

You said the bible is a piece of shit and you think you can interpret it? Get real reality girl. Youve got a new supporter now, mega comment, lucky you.

[miracles]

This entire thread,
and many others,
are a testament to his illness.

Sorry he had to derail your thread :rolleyes:.

Originally Posted by reality man http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1229951#post1229951)
Just popped in to say that the bible is a piece of shit which has been used by hypocritical oppressors since the dawn of time to spread thier religious madness and hatred of everybody who does not believe as they do!


Well this was his conrtibution to one of my threads Megatroll. Your on ignore now, fell free to wax lyrical as per, shoud have put you there ionns ago.

[reality man]

well booh hoo hooo, they can put me on ignore which is what I have to do to the ones who insult and upset me. Any one who is worth his salt and has done his research knows that catholism is one of the most evil cults in the world. It is not true christianity, your an infant anylist mate, stop whinning. The pope is leading the One World Religion movement for the UN, get you fact right and stop being a liar

You said the bible is a piece of shit and you think you can interpret it? Get real reality girl. Youve got a new supporter now, mega comment, lucky you.

I asked miracles if we could possibly have a sensible conversation for once without resorting to insults ... the above quote was his response (spoken like a "true" christian) ... In fact the above style of quote seems to be his response to everyone on these forums ... Oh well, we have just another hate filled, angry, burn everyone on earth "christian" who has his bible and he's going to shove his crap down everyones throat whether they want to hear it or not ...

... I now think when I put you on ignore, i'll keep you on ignore

[reality man]

.


I will kick start this forum with a question.

When I say to you, that ALL of your beliefs are not true, what do you feel or think? Do you get angry or irritated, or are you indifferent?

Well then, read on a little - let's see where this all takes us ....



Many people throughout time have fought over beliefs - of who is right and who is wrong concerning beliefs, beliefs and more beliefs.

Yet what is belief anyway, but mere thought swirling around a mind which does not know reality - like a dream at night - no one ever questions the so called "reality" of a dream whilst one is having it - No - it is only when we awaken from the dream that we know that our dream/thought/belief was not reality.

Our religious beliefs in particular are fed into our mind as children - they come mainly from OLD BOOKS taught to us by what we percive as being "intelligent" adults. We trust these adults - we think they have all of the answers, and so we allow our uncontaminated mind/awareness to be hypnotised with thier second hand views of life and reality.

As adults we do not question our religious beliefs due to the sticky manner in which they soil our mind and awareness. We see the dream of religion and we see its books and its structures, and it puts up a very convincing illusion (just like the night time dream does). As a result - all we see is our belief and nothing will ever make us see the truth, whilst we hold a belief up in front of our eyes instead.

Other forms of belief saturate our awarenss too - beliefs about who or what we are - where we came from - where we are headed. When we say the words "I am a ..." - we usually finish up with a mere belief (a thought) about who or what we are, and not the reality of what we truly are.

Some of us move away from organized relgion into the new age philosophies - we think we are radicals or seekers after truths by doing this - but are we really? Are we not just swapping the old belief system for a "newer" or more trendy belief system instead? Are we not still obscuring our true reality with an even trickier form of belief - a form of belief which actually makes us BELIEVE that we do know the truth of our inner being and reality - when we actually don't?

I say that no belief is true, simply because belief comes from thought - we usually have no evidence of our beliefs, but some of us would gladly start a war to uphold and project them anyway - if we do find some evidence, whether physical eveidence or experiential evidence within our own awareness to confirm what we believed to be true - well then - our beliefs are no longer beliefs, but have then been transformed into realities/truths/certainties.

What I wonder, would happen if we ever cleared our awareness of our beliefs/thoughts/dreams and allowed the perception of reality to arise in our awareness instead? You see - our beliefs obscure the reality of what is!

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!


What do you all think about this subject?




.



I'll post the OP AGAIN, because miracles has yet again derailed the thread .. so let's see if we can get back on track!

[dedicate]

So far, reality man, you have equated "Belief" only with "religious belief". Or at least a good portion of this thread has. Mostly, its' been the word "belief" means "religion". That is, seems to me, so far, all has been said is religious beliefs are the trouble and the problem.
So when you say, "All beliefs are untrue," you are stating "All religious beliefs are untrue." But what is "religion?" and what is "belief?".-- just your belief about what a belief is, thus untrue? (note: you said, RM, "I deal in facts, not airy fairy stories".. isn't that your belief? That there are "facts" and that you deal in just these things?)

All belief is not untrue. I understand what you are getting at, since belief often will hamper and get in the way of progress. It's an unnessassary construct of the mind, limiting and small. But still a belief can be true. And it can be said, in some sense, "What you believe is the truth." The more one believes in something the more true it becomes. One can make this principle work for one too.

Having said that, then why pick on just religion belief (But what is religion? Do you know? have you said?)? And, there are many other beliefs outside of the pervue of religion such as "I am a good man." or "I love my country." Or even the belief, "I have to send my kids to college" or "Religion is a waste of time". All beliefs. Even, "All belief is untrue" is a belief which logically nullifies itself.

funny you haven't gotten very far with this idea, except to chip away at people's religions. Maybe it RMan has some beliefs about religion? Does RMan have the belief that somehow he must break the back of religion and thus advance his "fact based reality"?

[tannah]

Interesting article at wikipedia about belief. Here's some of it:


Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.[1]

The relationship between belief and knowledge is subtle. Believers in a claim typically say that they know that claim. For instance, those who believe that the Sun is a god will often report that they know that the Sun is a god. However, the terms belief and knowledge are used differently by philosophers. It is a telling point concerning the nature of belief that most people distinguish between what they know and what they believe, even though they consider both kinds of statements to be true.

Epistemology is the philosophical study of knowledge and belief. The primary problem in epistemology is to understand exactly what is needed in order for us to have knowledge. In a notion derived from Plato's dialogue Theaetetus, philosophy has traditionally defined knowledge as justified true belief. The relationship between belief and knowledge is that a belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true.

A false belief is not considered to be knowledge, even if it is sincere. A sincere believer in the flat earth theory does not know that the Earth is flat. Similarly, a truth that nobody believes is not knowledge, because in order to be knowledge, there must be some person who knows it.

Later epistemologists[who?] have questioned the "justified true belief" definition, and some philosophers[who?] have questioned whether "belief" is a useful notion at all.

Beliefs are the assumptions we make about ourselves, about others in the world and about how we expect things to be.

Beliefs are also how we think things really are.


"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

[reality man]

So far, reality man, you have equated "Belief" only with "religious belief". Or at least a good portion of this thread has. Mostly, its' been the word "belief" means "religion". That is, seems to me, so far, all has been said is religious beliefs are the trouble and the problem.
So when you say, "All beliefs are untrue," you are stating "All religious beliefs are untrue." But what is "religion?" and what is "belief?".-- just your belief about what a belief is, thus untrue? (note: you said, RM, "I deal in facts, not airy fairy stories".. isn't that your belief? That there are "facts" and that you deal in just these things?)

All belief is not untrue. I understand what you are getting at, since belief often will hamper and get in the way of progress. It's an unnessassary construct of the mind, limiting and small. But still a belief can be true. And it can be said, in some sense, "What you believe is the truth." The more one believes in something the more true it becomes. One can make this principle work for one too.

Having said that, then why pick on just religion belief (But what is religion? Do you know? have you said?)? And, there are many other beliefs outside of the pervue of religion such as "I am a good man." or "I love my country." Or even the belief, "I have to send my kids to college" or "Religion is a waste of time". All beliefs. Even, "All belief is untrue" is a belief which logically nullifies itself.

funny you haven't gotten very far with this idea, except to chip away at people's religions. Maybe it RMan has some beliefs about religion? Does RMan have the belief that somehow he must break the back of religion and thus advance his "fact based reality"?


I am not just talking about belief from the point of view of religion (the thread got derailed a little with that), however when most people talk of belief they usually go down that road. My point was simple - that belief is nothing but a thought, and a thought can be correct or incorrect - but as long as it remains only belief (speculation), then it is untrue until it has been proven to be true. When a thought (belief) is proven to be true - well then, it is no longer belief but fact. Like a scientist who has a theory (belief), he carries out some experiments and finds his theory (belief) was right - so now he no longer has a theory (belief) - he has a scientific fact - it has been transformed.

The examples you have given of "I love my country" and "I am a good man" are once again speculations we make through thought - they are unture because it all depends on ones own perception and thoughts of what is good - and the love of a country stems from ones THOUGHTS about the country they live in - but the country remains neutral in reality - it is neither good nor bad - it just IS.

I like facts, because then we need not believe anymore - we can still speculate but as long as it remains only a belief, we really remain in the dark. Beliefs may make that dark seem more bearable and a nicer place to live in, but we still don't really KNOW for sure as long as we allow belief to stand in the way of truth/fact/reality. When beliefs stand before obvious facts like this, then they are like a hypnosis upon the mind and can stagnate ones life and progress - as you rightly pointed out.

So when I say "No belief is true" - I am merely stating that no thought is true - and when it is proven to be true, it is no longer a belief but a fact. So only proven facts are true and beliefs are mere speculation until they are proven - hence - "No belief is true".

[dedicate]

Let me get this strait. You are saying, "No belief is true, by definition of belief. Belief is only an idea that has not been proven true. Once it has been shown to be true, then it is not a belief anymore." Is that what you are saying?

That's a wild horse you have chosen to ride. I think you are going to fall off. Belief is just accepting the reality of something. Once something is found to be true, it is still a belief. That's how I see it.

I think you are saying, if it is true, then it is true outside my belief. This is true, but it is still within your belief it is true. Hasn't some philospher already gone over this? When you are objective,, it is you who are being objective, thus subjective?

The truth that the world is round is only a belief. The truth people occupy this earth is a belief.

We could make a lot of it, and get very involved-- complicated. It depends on how you (subjective, belief system) want to define belief. If you want to define belief as only thoughts not found true or false as of yet, then fine. But I don't know if that is what most people are going to go along with.

Belief is just the acceptance of the reality of something.. weather found true, or found false, unfounded, or based on some evidence. No reason to say, "It's not belief, when I say God exists (or does not exist), it's fact" because it's all belief at that juncture, fact or not.

[miracles]

I asked miracles if we could possibly have a sensible conversation for once without resorting to insults ... the above quote was his response (spoken like a "true" christian) ... In fact the above style of quote seems to be his response to everyone on these forums ... Oh well, we have just another hate filled, angry, burn everyone on earth "christian" who has his bible and he's going to shove his crap down everyones throat whether they want to hear it or not ...

... I now think when I put you on ignore, i'll keep you on ignore

All you have to say to me is insulting, can you not see that you insolent man? A man with "no beliefs", and you think you live in reality? Dear me, the forum has reached a new low. Effectively what you sayng is your a nulified human being. I agree, you are. Sub human. I cant keep quiet with this crap. Its not on! Im upping the anti on you, so you had better put me on ignore fast or you will get a dose of reality man.

[biblegirl]

My point was simple - that belief is nothing but a thought, and a thought can be correct or incorrect - but as long as it remains only belief (speculation), then it is untrue until it has been proven to be true. When a thought (belief) is proven to be true - well then, it is no longer belief but fact. Like a scientist who has a theory (belief), he carries out some experiments and finds his theory (belief) was right - so now he no longer has a theory (belief) - he has a scientific fact - it has been transformed.

The examples you have given of "I love my country" and "I am a good man" are once again speculations we make through thought - they are unture because it all depends on ones own perception and thoughts of what is good - and the love of a country stems from ones THOUGHTS about the country they live in - but the country remains neutral in reality - it is neither good nor bad - it just IS.

i don't know, it seems to make things rather ambiguous when you put it this way, because what counts as proof of fact to one person may not count to another...most people believe their beliefs ARE facts, to them they are true...yet there are so many contradictory beliefs how can any of them be proven to everyone?? like the man who says he loves his country...only he would know the truth whether he loves it or not: are you saying he has to prove to someone that he loves his country before it becomes true?

this discussion just went way over my head

imo in this matrix reality facts are relative, especially the ones spewing from the scientific community :D

[miracles]

i don't know, it seems to make things rather ambiguous when you put it this way, because what counts as proof of fact to one person may not count to another...most people believe their beliefs ARE facts, to them they are true...yet there are so many contradictory beliefs how can any of them be proven to everyone?? like the man who says he loves his country...only he would know the truth whether he loves it or not: are you saying he has to prove to someone that he loves his country before it becomes true?



imo in this matrix reality facts are relative, especially the ones spewing from the scientific community :D

Hear hear

[dedicate]

It's not over your head, biblegirl. You are right.

You are alluding to what I said earlier about making things too complicated. This is a trick of the ego, mind, (ie... believing) that believes itself to be real. A mind hanger-oner trick.-- Pick apart all manusia of the arguement until the point gets lost!

And both sides of the religion debate engage in it. There is at least one Bible Man around here who will see what he sees as the only truth. Put a new concept about a scripture before him, and he will shiver and shake and spew about how that is not factual truth, you are making things up. He is stuck in his beliefs as truth. The anti-religionist/or materialist will also fail to admit the same thing... "The truth is the truth and that's how it is... and it's not me believing it that makes me say so"!!!

This is where we fail as a species on the point of unity... and letting others have their beliefs. That is, the acceptance of what we call truth is also a belief.... truth or not, it is our belief, it is our opinion, it is our subjective reality. Even if you feel strongly, even it is the truth, it is still your belief. This failure has to do with being un-gracious, Un-giving, and unkind.

[manxboz]

All you have to say to me is insulting, can you not see that you insolent man? A man with "no beliefs", and you think you live in reality? Dear me, the forum has reached a new low. Effectively what you sayng is your a nulified human being. I agree, you are. Sub human. I cant keep quiet with this crap. Its not on! Im upping the anti on you, so you had better put me on ignore fast or you will get a dose of reality man.

Calm down Miracles my brother, this is not the Christ like way, combat his insults with love, it may seem hard but The Lord will give you strength to do it.

[tannah]

It's not over your head, biblegirl. You are right.

You are alluding to what I said earlier about making things too complicated. This is a trick of the ego, mind, (ie... believing) that believes itself to be real. A mind hanger-oner trick.-- Pick apart all manusia of the arguement until the point gets lost!

And both sides of the religion debate engage in it. There is at least one Bible Man around here who will see what he sees as the only truth. Put a new concept about a scripture before him, and he will shiver and shake and spew about how that is not factual truth, you are making things up. He is stuck in his beliefs as truth. The anti-religionist/or materialist will also fail to admit the same thing... "The truth is the truth and that's how it is... and it's not me believing it that makes me say so"!!!

This is where we fail as a species on the point of unity... and letting others have their beliefs. That is, the acceptance of what we call truth is also a belief.... truth or not, it is our belief, it is our opinion, it is our subjective reality. Even if you feel strongly, even it is the truth, it is still your belief. This failure has to do with being un-gracious, Un-giving, and unkind.

Some beliefs start wars. Others create caste systems. Even others cause victim mentalities and whatnot. On our way to unity it would be wise to be faced with our beliefs. Some will wriggle and refuse to budge, but they are part of the whole process. The outcome will be unity and a real one, not one of false accomadation.

The majority of fear in this world is a result of conflicting beliefs and false suggestions filtered down as belief systems.

The internet allows for the mind to type without the face to face interaction. That's good and it is bad also. Neither of which should disable the desire to
tackle any of these subjects coming up.

Unity and beliefs are not ultimately compatable. Some beliefs are waiting for the appearance of an almighty judge. In itself that dismisses the notion of unity. Through contemplation I simply know that we are one family, in it together, through it together, and together eternally.

Unity will be achieved though Self Government and Being, and when belief passes away, all that will be left is Loving Being, with Self Governing spirits
recognizing through knowing the Oneness they are all part of .

Those motivated by illusion and blinding attachments do not go to hell, they experience the loss of light/hell in the moment. It is Reason that will liberate everything, in time and toward Reality.

That's what I share with the universe. Only reality will surface eventually. And if I'm wrong about my own vision of unity, and God is the judge who condemns to hell, then I know where I am going.

[dedicate]

That's what I'm saying. As long as one believes something is true, one fails to view it as a belief AND, more importantly, one often fails to allow others to hold contrary beliefs.-- will thow it in their faces, beat them over the head and maybe kill. This is because they believe something true. But if they were to just accept what they are presenting to other peoples are just opinions, beliefs etc.. then maybe they wouldn't be so violent and confrontational.

Everything you posted, tenah, is your belief... your opinion... true or not.

Living with-out belief is the true way. But TRY IT!!!! It is not a easy road,,, and very few humans have traveled that road to enlightenment. The human mind is very very powerful an influence AND EVEN MORE TRICKY. One can believe he lives outside belief, but be in the middle of it!!! Ego, belief, mind, all the same.

This is why it is important for most of us to take a more conventional religion approach. Not the above Zen approach, which is too difficult for most of us. The conventional religion is one that cultivates kindness, graciousness and a giving disposition. After you have cultivated some measure of kindness and peace in your life,, then you will be fitter to work on the irradication of the monkey mind. My opinion.

[reality man]

Some beliefs start wars. Others create caste systems. Even others cause victim mentalities and whatnot. On our way to unity it would be wise to be faced with our beliefs. Some will wriggle and refuse to budge, but they are part of the whole process. The outcome will be unity and a real one, not one of false accomadation.

The majority of fear in this world is a result of conflicting beliefs and false suggestions filtered down as belief systems.

The internet allows for the mind to type without the face to face interaction. That's good and it is bad also. Neither of which should disable the desire to
tackle any of these subjects coming up.

Unity and beliefs are not ultimately compatable. Some beliefs are waiting for the appearance of an almighty judge. In itself that dismisses the notion of unity. Through contemplation I simply know that we are one family, in it together, through it together, and together eternally.

Unity will be achieved though Self Government and Being, and when belief passes away, all that will be left is Loving Being, with Self Governing spirits
recognizing through knowing the Oneness they are all part of .

Those motivated by illusion and blinding attachments do not go to hell, they experience the loss of light/hell in the moment. It is Reason that will liberate everything, in time and toward Reality.

That's what I share with the universe. Only reality will surface eventually. And if I'm wrong about my own vision of unity, and God is the judge who condemns to hell, then I know where I am going.


Well said Tannah, that's what I mean to get across, but you have done a better job of it than me.


Dedicate:
Living with-out belief is the true way. But TRY IT!!!! It is not a easy road,,, and very few humans have traveled that road to enlightenment. The human mind is very very powerful an influence AND EVEN MORE TRICKY. One can believe he lives outside belief, but be in the middle of it!!! Ego, belief, mind, all the same.

This is why it is important for most of us to take a more conventional religion approach. Not the above Zen approach, which is too difficult for most of us. The conventional religion is one that cultivates kindness, graciousness and a giving disposition. After you have cultivated some measure of kindness and peace in you life,, then work on the irradication of the monkey mind. My opinion.

Could the approach I am speaking about (a moving beyond belief and into the NOW approach), call it zen if you like - could our view of this being too "hard" be the reason that we hang on desperately to speculation, theories and beliefs to fill up what we think might be an otherwise void? Perhaps at first glance it sounds nihilisitic, but is it really? Would moving beyond belief not take us to the enlightened awake state of pure awareness quicker rather than trying to ciltivate kindness and graciousness etc?

I see where you are coming from - if we have good beliefs which make us feel good then what is wrong with that? But what if we traded in a thought based reality for a higher reality beyond belief? Does this make sense? I don't know if I am explaining myself well or not.

[dedicate]

--- Could the approach I am speaking about (a moving beyond belief and into the NOW approach), call it zen if you like - could our view of this being too "hard" be the reason that we hang on desperately to speculation, theories and beliefs to fill up what we think might be an otherwise void? Perhaps at first glance it sounds nihilisitic, but is it really? Would moving beyond belief not take us to the enlightened awake state of pure awareness quicker rather than trying to ciltivate kindness and graciousness etc? ---

You are explaining yourself fine. It's not nihilistic. Yes it is difficult because the Western man is very very much involved with the mind. Some people even believe they are their mind! So for most people this method is too arduous and would take 3 years at a monestary just to get an idea. Not practacle.

Quicker? Yes. Most direct. Yes. But Zen and the method you speak of is usually a buffer at first. We are talking about enlightenment now, aren't we? and how best to get there. Good! Then..... realize it right now! You are enlightened already!! Do you have it? .. if you say you have it, then you don't.

Now you might have a glimpse about what we are talking about. It is fleeting and mommentary, at best. It is easy to fool oneself, and I see it on this board all the time. It is pride that says, "I have attained. I know". Pride is mind and ego.

And like I say,, don't fool yourself about it. It's easy and quick and most direct.. but it is far from quick and easy! Zazzen is the practice of being enlightened. Try some Zazzen.. practice enlightened practice and see how far you get without your mind! I bet you wont get out of the parking lot!


But for most people it is better to develop some measure of charity and peace. This can bring one to enlightenment too.

It's interesting how it works. Meditation brings one to a compassionate state. Compassion brings one to a meditative state. For most people today, it is best to cultivate the compassion in order to develop the meditative. Compassion eases the mind and desires naturally. Meditation makes one aware of the suffering around oneself. But either way is good.

[fallensoul]

Living with-out belief is the true way. But TRY IT!!!! It is not a easy road,,, and very few humans have traveled that road to enlightenment. The human mind is very very powerful an influence AND EVEN MORE TRICKY. One can believe he lives outside belief, but be in the middle of it!!! Ego, belief, mind, all the same.

It is scary for most, when they lose their identity, when they see they are whoever they want to be. When they keep changing and growing and learning to be so much more than they were before. Seeing the world from so many different perspectives and finally they are able to see the world with their own eyes not through veils of indoctrination.

It is beautiful experience, I think life was meant to be lived like that. Define it on your own.

It takes time to adjust but there is no turning back.

[tannah]

Everything you posted, tenah, is your belief... your opinion... true or not.



Well ok, if that's what you choose to believe/observe from your own standing. Except that I'm more about knowing and Being. If I practice that on the internet there is no more posting really! I'd be happy to accept everyone I meet as equals to me, as an eternal brother or sister.

I have had this image occur to me, for about fifteen years now. When things get a little out of hand, someone or myself say things that are a bit aggressive or whatever, and someone feels wronged or whatever, I simply stand at a gate. It's my gate, the one that ushers people into my world and my universe. And I ask myself, is there anyone you won't let in. And I invariably can't stand the thought of leaving someone outside.

Then I'm told "well what about those evil people that have done some of the most hideous things in life"? They are some of the first I let in. That's because they need the love experience the most, best they get in there real quick. We can sit around, and we can discuss why they do what they do and why I do what I do. Through example and reason they will be won over to reality. This is what the parable of the prodigal son is all about. It's those that have gone wayward into physical pleasure and suffered attachment that get welcomed back with the most joy. The prodigal son parable is about the cycle that everyone takes, out into the duality, experiencing and finding out that they want to go back home. Who are we to really judge a spirit? We have no idea if they are on their way home, where they are in their journey, very little. But we know they go back home.

I have found in life that hanging around with a supposed no good thief or whore provides a much better depth of conversation. These people are more in touch than the false "pharisee". Not that that is a rule. But the attitude was born from a dream, back in 1984. I was in a basketball arena of all places. A group of us kids were standing round, listening to Jesus speak to us. Suddenly a group of tramps, thiefs, whores and other downtrodden walked into the arena. Jesus turned to us and said "see these people? Not one will be lost in the kingdom". This is what Jesus meant about following him and believing in his way, because he held up the perfect ideal to the universe and to God.

Mirror that with a dream I had six days ago. We were in a hall listening to a preacher up on his pulpit. There was a sense of the satanic in him. We wanted to expose him, but a voice said "you can't take on satan just like that, be careful", and as he said this the church door creaked open and a very nasty atmosphere around that door was about to come in. I understood the dream. The church has turned the truth into a set of provisos.

[marpat]

.


I will kick start this forum with a question.

When I say to you, that ALL of your beliefs are not true, what do you feel or think? Do you get angry or irritated, or are you indifferent?

Well then, read on a little - let's see where this all takes us ....



Many people throughout time have fought over beliefs - of who is right and who is wrong concerning beliefs, beliefs and more beliefs.

Yet what is belief anyway, but mere thought swirling around a mind which does not know reality - like a dream at night - no one ever questions the so called "reality" of a dream whilst one is having it - No - it is only when we awaken from the dream that we know that our dream/thought/belief was not reality.

Our religious beliefs in particular are fed into our mind as children - they come mainly from OLD BOOKS taught to us by what we percive as being "intelligent" adults. We trust these adults - we think they have all of the answers, and so we allow our uncontaminated mind/awareness to be hypnotised with thier second hand views of life and reality.

As adults we do not question our religious beliefs due to the sticky manner in which they soil our mind and awareness. We see the dream of religion and we see its books and its structures, and it puts up a very convincing illusion (just like the night time dream does). As a result - all we see is our belief and nothing will ever make us see the truth, whilst we hold a belief up in front of our eyes instead.

Other forms of belief saturate our awarenss too - beliefs about who or what we are - where we came from - where we are headed. When we say the words "I am a ..." - we usually finish up with a mere belief (a thought) about who or what we are, and not the reality of what we truly are.

Some of us move away from organized relgion into the new age philosophies - we think we are radicals or seekers after truths by doing this - but are we really? Are we not just swapping the old belief system for a "newer" or more trendy belief system instead? Are we not still obscuring our true reality with an even trickier form of belief - a form of belief which actually makes us BELIEVE that we do know the truth of our inner being and reality - when we actually don't?

I say that no belief is true, simply because belief comes from thought - we usually have no evidence of our beliefs, but some of us would gladly start a war to uphold and project them anyway - if we do find some evidence, whether physical eveidence or experiential evidence within our own awareness to confirm what we believed to be true - well then - our beliefs are no longer beliefs, but have then been transformed into realities/truths/certainties.

What I wonder, would happen if we ever cleared our awareness of our beliefs/thoughts/dreams and allowed the perception of reality to arise in our awareness instead? You see - our beliefs obscure the reality of what is!

We either have belief or truth - one is a dream of thought, and the other is reality!


What do you all think about this subject?




.

I would say that while there may be no absolute truths a lot of truth is relative and depends on the relationship between the perceiver and the perceived, which can change.

[reality man]

It is scary for most, when they lose their identity, when they see they are whoever they want to be. When they keep changing and growing and learning to be so much more than they were before. Seeing the world from so many different perspectives and finally they are able to see the world with their own eyes not through veils of indoctrination.

It is beautiful experience, I think life was meant to be lived like that. Define it on your own.

It takes time to adjust but there is no turning back.


I agree fallensoul,

I think we can stagnate if we are locked in a box of rigid beliefs, we put the blockers on our ability to grow intellectually and spiritually and then we cannot allow ourselves to be the ALL that we can be. Without blind belief or a false set of thoughts about who or what we are, we do see the world through our own unclouded eyes - not through all of those veils of thought/belief - perhaps this is what enlightenment is (but again there's different views on that word).

Some have called it enlightenment, when the veils drop away and we begin to see WHAT IS rather than what we THINK IS - but even labelling this clear seeing with a word like enlightenment kind of puts a blocker up again, because then we have a lot of inner assumptions and beliefs about what enlightenment is or isn't - and we may then say "oh, was that an enlightenment experience I just had, or was it some other LABEL".

So I think you are right - just calling this clear seeing which is beyond belief and all thought "the beautiful experience", is much better than getting caught up in definitions/words/thoughts/beliefs about it all.

[fallensoul]

I think we can stagnate if we are locked in a box of rigid beliefs, we put the blockers on our ability to grow intellectually and spiritually and then we cannot allow ourselves to be the ALL that we can be. Without blind belief or a false set of thoughts about who or what we are, we do see the world through our own unclouded eyes

This was kind of my point, can't really emphasize this enough.

[reality man]

dedicate:
You are explaining yourself fine. It's not nihilistic. Yes it is difficult because the Western man is very very much involved with the mind. Some people even believe they are their mind! So for most people this method is too arduous and would take 3 years at a monestary just to get an idea. Not practacle.

Maybe it wouldn't take that long - could it be presumed that it is seen as being difficult to awaken out of the mind here and now, simply because we believe it is difficult. Maybe if we didn't spend 3 years looking for the "idea" you mentioned - well then, maybe we would awaken quite simply from the need for beliefs and ideas. After-all if the western man believes he is his mind, then that proves the problems we have with belief.

First we believe that we are our mind.
Then we believe that it is difficult to awaken from this spell.
Then we believe that it is not practacle to awaken ... and so ... we remain asleep in the dream of thought and belief.

From the outset the beliefs are the problem ... even though they are not true, but mere speculation, and as a result of that speculation/belief/theory, we stagnate our life once again. Now, the above example of how belief can stagnate ones life is only one small example - because of what we believe, What other limitations are we holding within our minds?

[dedicate]

The mind is the limitation. Just you saying, "What other limitations are we holding within our minds.", shows that you still believe in the mind as real. So you have a long way to go and don't realize it. When you realize you have a long way to go, then you will be close. It's all a wonderful paradox.

If you want to get technical.. the limitations of the mind are in the form of belief, desire, ego, pride, want, speculations, anger, lust, greed, indignation, hate. There is a million of them. So, even if you say to yourself, "I am beyond mind.", most likely you are fooling yourself... the first time someone cuts in front of you in line will proove it... even though, it's easy, immediate,, all one has to do is make the cut, and one is free.

P.S. if something is true or not, does not have any baring on this conversation. YOu seem to think! it's ok to see something as true. But this is a form of belief.

[tannah]

The mind is the limitation. Just you saying, "What other limitations are we holding within our minds.", shows that you still believe in the mind as real. So you have a long way to go and don't realize it. When you realize you have a long way to go, then you will be close. It's all a wonderful paradox.

If you want to get technical.. the limitations of the mind are in the form of belief, desire, ego, pride, want, speculations, anger, lust, greed, indignation, hate. There is a million of them. So, even if you say to yourself, "I am beyond mind.", most likely you are fooling yourself... the first time someone cuts in front of you in line will proove it... even though, it's easy, immediate,, all one has to do is make the cut, and one is free.

P.S. if something is true or not, does not have any baring on this conversation. YOu seem to think! it's ok to see something as true. But this is a form of belief.

Wouldn't you agree the mind is also an interface? It is the place of action, as your examples show:


the limitations of the mind are in the form of belief, desire, ego, pride, want, speculations, anger, lust, greed, indignation, hate.


Being wouldn't necessarily imply non-action. But Being is the source. The individual is the best judge of the inner relationship between source and mind. After that, the source acts according to our desire.

For ego one could simply give it up and take on the married being within, the whole (lots of discipline required, don't moan if you don't think you can do it, you probably can't if you think those thoughts in the first place). This neutralizes the dual minded problem. Invariably pride will switch to humility, want to satisfaction, speculation to surety, anger to joy, lust to control, greed to generosity, indignation to balance, and hate becomes love. I'm not sure the duality's love is really love, but a mixture of the negative and positive aspects, both products of the ego.

And I can only assume this is why we are here, to learn to manifest the will of the One through our interface/Mind.

[dedicate]

The emotion and body are the place of manifest action. If by interface, you mean, like a lens, then yes. If you want to work on the alchemy and Tantra of transmuting the opposites, through the marriage ceremony .. fine. Utilizing the mind for imagery may be OK too in this respect, as a means of clearing the mind through mind acting on the body and then body/emotion curing mind. Possible. Yes. Many many things one can do, not just Zen.

[reality man]

The mind is the limitation. Just you saying, "What other limitations are we holding within our minds.", shows that you still believe in the mind as real. So you have a long way to go and don't realize it. When you realize you have a long way to go, then you will be close. It's all a wonderful paradox.


I don't claim to be beyond mind (although I have had that experience many times, it doesn't seem to last though), i'm shooting the breeze here to see where this leads - like you say its all a wonderful paradox - one can have an experience of what it is like to side step the mind, but even with that experience we can still see that the mind and its many facets are still a limitation, as long as we believe them to be.

My point is, what if we could begin to see through thought and belief, so that all of these limitations are seen through once and for all, and therefore no longer have any impact upon our awareness and lives? What if we could see the thought/belief arise in our awareness and we are then able to dismiss it due to our understanding of the nature of thought and how it hypnotises the awareness - for when we truly understand - well then we are no longer spell bound - and we can then use the mind like the tool it is, without demanding to live in a permanent state of no-mind (which I don't think is possible, unless we intend to spend our whole life in a cave in the Himalayas).

[fallensoul]

I don't claim to be beyond mind (although I have had that experience many times, it doesn't seem to last though)

This sate is pure bliss. But to reach it one must drop all attachements and completely exist in the now without desires etc. I have experienced this. But what pulled me out of it was the world, I had to start thinking the future, money, etc. It would take immense mastery to switch between the future/past oriented mind back to the present with will.

In this state the mere act of sitting still was magical, the mere act of taking shower was blissful, feeling the water flow all around you, massaging and warming your skin and body. Eating food, tasting everything having nothing else in your mind except the act of eating.

It is beyond words, but impossible to maintain in a this current society where most of our attention is always diverted to the future and to the past, rarely we can enjoy the moment. But that is exactly why sunsets etc are so magical, you forget everything else and live in the moment.

I wish one day I could live in this state, but as for now I know I can not since everyday I need to think about the next, or I will not know when to wake up to get to school etc, or pay bills etc.

[stfd]

This sate is pure bliss. But to reach it one must drop all attachements and completely exist in the now without desires etc. I have experienced this. But what pulled me out of it was the world, I had to start thinking the future, money, etc. It would take immense mastery to switch between the future/past oriented mind back to the present with will.

In this state the mere act of sitting still was magical, the mere act of taking shower was blissful, feeling the water flow all around you, massaging and warming your skin and body. Eating food, tasting everything having nothing else in your mind except the act of eating.

It is beyond words, but impossible to maintain in a this current society where most of our attention is always diverted to the future and to the past, rarely we can enjoy the moment. But that is exactly why sunsets etc are so magical, you forget everything else and live in the moment.

I wish one day I could live in this state, but as for now I know I can not since everyday I need to think about the next, or I will not know when to wake up to get to school etc, or pay bills etc.


This 'society' , this environment , this whole material 'thing' we live in is of our making.
We alone have created and we alone contribute ,each and every day, to it.
We CONTRIBUTE to that which destroys us.
Every single day we do.
We have become lenient, lazy, forgot to love , to care, to forgive.
Willingly twisted meanings and willingly altered things so that we may be able to better live this way while blatantly and constantly refusing to feel the reality.

Why do we have to 'blame' an external 'factor' - it is us to blame.
We have those great gifts which were given to us , why not use them?
Why?

[fallensoul]

Why do we have to 'blame' an external 'factor' - it is us to blame.
We have those great gifts which were given to us , why not use them?
Why?

Well as far as I know I was born in 1988 and did not decide how the world would be but it was already there. So if I need to blame someone, I can blame those who worked towards creating the current world.

But of course it is only up to the people to change the world. Few can see beyond and understand what is wrong they are too caught up in the lie.

[miracles]

Calm down Miracles my brother, this is not the Christ like way, combat his insults with love, it may seem hard but The Lord will give you strength to do it.

Will do brother.

[tannah]

Calm down Miracles my brother, this is not the Christ like way, combat his insults with love, it may seem hard but The Lord will give you strength to do it.

You're making it sound as if Miracles is getting nothing but insults. Perhaps the Lord is giving Reality Man strength to stand his ground against obvious illusion? It may be that the high ground isn't occupied by the supporters of the bible and quran as God's word. I don't have to feel any less closer to God just because I bring into question the personality God is given in the OT, for example.

The basis for God, according to the bible, is to overlook the similar texts from other cultures that contributed to the bible story. Let's not scorn that fact as untrue. Archeologists are not lying. We now know how the bible, and how most cultures back then used God as a real person that said stuff and kept people in their place.

Tell someone that the flood story is older than the bible version, and one gets dismissed as just an "insulter, hateful".

But why would one believe that the flood story is older than Genesis? From a Christian point of view it has to be that Genesis came before the Sumerian texts. Yet we know that the Jews were supposed to be slaves in Bablyon, and that Abraham came from Ur, which was in that region. The dates for the Sumerian texts are older than those of the Genesis texts. It's very plausable that these stories were brought back from Sumaria, and that in establishing a new Jewish culture it brought about the rehashing of other myths.

A view I'm putting out there is that Yahweh/Jehovah isn't the real Creator. Yes, he was viewed as a God by those that wrote about him. But there's a God/Creator more intrinsic than this fella.

I do feel compassion for the Christian people here, especially, who are reading this kinda stuff. I was in the same position, and I eventually chose reality. And it didn't turn out that bad. I have respect for the few Jesus personas I've encountered from various sources. Although I think Jesus would be rather embarrased by the overall persona he's been made out to be in the bible. Get a nice soap charachter, based on some truth, sprinkled with ritual, and take it into the world, put to death those that won't accept it, and establish the flag on that ground. In the end the bible has acheived its aim. And so have many other similar books, not just religious.

No insults intended.

[miracles]

Well as far as I know I was born in 1988 and did not decide how the world would be but it was already there. So if I need to blame someone, I can blame those who worked towards creating the current world.

But of course it is only up to the people to change the world. Few can see beyond and understand what is wrong they are too caught up in the lie.

I have a lot of respect for you young 20 somethings in here discussing these topics, when I was your age, alcohol amd parties where my only currency and I was hammered almost every day of the week.

[miracles]

You're making it sound as if Miracles is getting nothing but insults. Perhaps the Lord is giving Reality Man strength to stand his ground against obvious illusion? It may be that the high ground isn't occupied by the supporters of the bible and quran as God's word. I don't have to feel any less closer to God just because I bring into question the personality God is given in the OT, for example.

The basis for God, according to the bible, is to overlook the similar texts from other cultures that contributed to the bible story. Let's not scorn that fact as untrue. Archeologists are not lying. We now know how the bible, and how most cultures back then used God as a real person that said stuff and kept people in their place.

Tell someone that the flood story is older than the bible version, and one gets dismissed as just an "insulter, hateful".

But why would one believe that the flood story is older than Genesis? From a Christian point of view it has to be that Genesis came before the Sumerian texts. Yet we know that the Jews were supposed to be slaves in Bablyon, and that Abraham came from Ur, which was in that region. The dates for the Sumerian texts are older than those of the Genesis texts. It's very plausable that these stories were brought back from Sumaria, and that in establishing a new Jewish culture it brought about the rehashing of other myths.

A view I'm putting out there is that Yahweh/Jehovah isn't the real Creator. Yes, he was viewed as a God by those that wrote about him. But there's a God/Creator more intrinsic than this fella.

I do feel compassion for the Christian people here, especially, who are reading this kinda stuff. I was in the same position, and I eventually chose reality. And it didn't turn out that bad. I have respect for the few Jesus personas I've encountered from various sources. Although I think Jesus would be rather embarrased by the overall persona he's been made out to be in the bible. Get a nice soap charachter, based on some truth, sprinkled with ritual, and take it into the world, put to death those that won't accept it, and establish the flag on that ground. In the end the bible has acheived its aim. And so have many other similar books, not just religious.

No insults intended.


Okay, putting the OT aside for arguements sake, what are your views on the NT?

[tannah]

Okay, putting the OT aside for arguements sake, what are your views on the NT?

Well, you did have a chance there to express some of your views about the points raised in the post, about Sumerian texts, for example.

Your question wishes to divide the bible up? How am I supposed to view the NT without the backbone of the OT? The bible claims continuity.

Let's just say that if any book like the bible is studied in earnest, wisdom will lead the searcher to towards the truth. The truth won't be found in the rituals and belief system set out though. Truth isn't a belief system, as some here know. One has to be that thing. Zen Buddhism seems to know:

Buddhas don't save Buddhas. If you use your mind to look for a Buddha, you won't see the Buddha. As long as you look for a Buddha somewhere else, you'll never see that your own mind is the Buddha. Don't use a Buddha to worship a Buddha. And don't use the mind to invoke a Buddha. Buddhas don't recite sutras. Buddhas don't keep precepts. And Buddhas don't break precepts. Buddhas don't keep or break anything. Buddhas don't do good or evil.

To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature.

[miracles]

Well, you did have a chance there to express some of your views about the points raised in the post, about Sumerian texts, for example.

Your question wishes to divide the bible up? How am I supposed to view the NT without the backbone of the OT? The bible claims continuity.

:


Your right but no comment on the NT I see. never mind.

Please post a thread topic about your views on the sumerian texts, what are they? where did they come from? who wrote it?, and we will get stuck into on that thread, go on I dare you?????

PS Jesus tells us reciting prayers is a waste of time by the way, and he said dont do it. I think people can read the bible find wisdom and create their onw religion plagurising the bible, thats my theory.

. Buddhas don't do good or evil.

Which means buddahs don't do anything? Pray tell whats the point?

[fallensoul]

I have a lot of respect for you young 20 somethings in here discussing these topics, when I was your age, alcohol amd parties where my only currency and I was hammered almost every day of the week.

Thanks, I got past that drinking phase when I was younger like 15-18, then realized how pointless it is. I have researched so much that people just don't believe me, I could discuss any subject to be honest and if the one you suggested was something I didn't know enough about I would research it. That is who I am, I seek knowledge, all of it. Now I feel way too old for my physical age, cannot ever connect and relate very well with people my age. I can play along tho, I was like them once but It never feels real.

So I am left debating here on the internet with "bitter" old men ;D

Also I can't really debate or discuss with the people I know, since I have studied everything in English and I have no idea what some words mean in my mother tongue I understand English better than my "own" language. :(

[manxboz]

You're making it sound as if Miracles is getting nothing but insults. Perhaps the Lord is giving Reality Man strength to stand his ground against obvious illusion? It may be that the high ground isn't occupied by the supporters of the bible and quran as God's word. I don't have to feel any less closer to God just because I bring into question the personality God is given in the OT, for example.

The basis for God, according to the bible, is to overlook the similar texts from other cultures that contributed to the bible story. Let's not scorn that fact as untrue. Archeologists are not lying. We now know how the bible, and how most cultures back then used God as a real person that said stuff and kept people in their place.

Tell someone that the flood story is older than the bible version, and one gets dismissed as just an "insulter, hateful".

But why would one believe that the flood story is older than Genesis? From a Christian point of view it has to be that Genesis came before the Sumerian texts. Yet we know that the Jews were supposed to be slaves in Bablyon, and that Abraham came from Ur, which was in that region. The dates for the Sumerian texts are older than those of the Genesis texts. It's very plausable that these stories were brought back from Sumaria, and that in establishing a new Jewish culture it brought about the rehashing of other myths.

A view I'm putting out there is that Yahweh/Jehovah isn't the real Creator. Yes, he was viewed as a God by those that wrote about him. But there's a God/Creator more intrinsic than this fella.

I do feel compassion for the Christian people here, especially, who are reading this kinda stuff. I was in the same position, and I eventually chose reality. And it didn't turn out that bad. I have respect for the few Jesus personas I've encountered from various sources. Although I think Jesus would be rather embarrased by the overall persona he's been made out to be in the bible. Get a nice soap charachter, based on some truth, sprinkled with ritual, and take it into the world, put to death those that won't accept it, and establish the flag on that ground. In the end the bible has acheived its aim. And so have many other similar books, not just religious.

No insults intended.

I'm not saying that be as i class miracles as a friend and i know he is a christian. But if i gave the same advice to another would i be heded i don't think so. My response was in the way that miracles threw insults at others, it's not very christ like.

[reality man]

This sate is pure bliss. But to reach it one must drop all attachements and completely exist in the now without desires etc. I have experienced this. But what pulled me out of it was the world, I had to start thinking the future, money, etc. It would take immense mastery to switch between the future/past oriented mind back to the present with will.

In this state the mere act of sitting still was magical, the mere act of taking shower was blissful, feeling the water flow all around you, massaging and warming your skin and body. Eating food, tasting everything having nothing else in your mind except the act of eating.

It is beyond words, but impossible to maintain in a this current society where most of our attention is always diverted to the future and to the past, rarely we can enjoy the moment. But that is exactly why sunsets etc are so magical, you forget everything else and live in the moment.

I wish one day I could live in this state, but as for now I know I can not since everyday I need to think about the next, or I will not know when to wake up to get to school etc, or pay bills etc.

This is the same boat I am in - work usually takes me out of the present moment and back into dreamland (although i'm developing a habbit of staying present more so these days) - and you are right, the way our society is set up it does make this presence seem more difficult to stay with (I would say, more difficult to remember). But I think we should try to make it a priority anyway since with a clear mind I have found the answers to problems appearing more readily (it makes life easier to manage and deal with). I would say that I stay fairly clear and present about 60% of the day now, with the other 40% caught up in the same distractions you mentioned.


Originally by miracles:
I have a lot of respect for you young 20 somethings in here discussing these topics, when I was your age, alcohol amd parties where my only currency and I was hammered almost every day of the week.

I was the same miracles - i'm almost 34 and I gave up the booze sessions when I was 21 (that was my spiritual turning point), although I still enjoy an occasional beer. I started with various religious texts and meditation and it grew from there - it was more like a peeling away of all that was not really me, then a peeling away of all that made no sense, until now - a point I am at where I feel that our whole world and way of life is built upon total lies!

[miracles]

I was the same miracles - i'm almost 34 and I gave up the booze sessions when I was 21 (that was my spiritual turning point), although I still enjoy an occasional beer. I started with various religious texts and meditation and it grew from there - it was more like a peeling away of all that was not really me, then a peeling away of all that made no sense, until now - a point I am at where I feel that our whole world and way of life is built upon total lies!

Much respect, well done. Keep up the good work. :)

[reality man]

Much respect, well done. Keep up the good work. :)

Thanks - you see, now we're getting on!

[miracles]

Thanks - you see, now we're getting on!

I think we would all get on famoulsy oustide in the real world if religion was out of bounds, I get on with most people, Im sure we all do. :D

[reality man]

I think we would all get on famoulsy oustide in the real world if religion was out of bounds, I get on with most people, Im sure we all do. :D

A difference in Religious opinion and belief does tend to get people rattled at times - all of us I guess :rolleyes:

[fallensoul]

Well they say after a heated battle if you find understanding you will have created a bond for life?

Or something like that :D