Where is/was the first built masonic lodge?

[squeakamuffin]

This thread should sort the wheat from the chaff here.

Where was the first masonic lodge in Europe built?

What year was it completed and operative by?

What and why was the lodge's area chosen for? (did the area have special significance?)

And most importantly who gave this first lodge its charter?....

[keystone]

This thread should sort the wheat from the chaff here.

Where was the first masonic lodge in Europe built?

What year was it completed and operative by?

What and why was the lodge's area chosen for? (did the area have special significance?)

And most importantly who gave this first lodge its charter?....


Very good questions. Actually I do not know the answers off the top of my head. Please educate me.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Deleted due to technical fault. Sorry.

[grandsecretary]

Yes this is a very good question indeed. I agree, and the answer is not easy.

May I ask squeakamuffin to describe what he or she means by a "masonic lodge?" Do you mean a building?

Masonic Lodges (people) used to, and still do meet, in ecclesiastical premises, and I am not sure that anyone would know exactly where the very first Masonic Lodge was holden.

If you mean the first purpose built Masonic Temple, so-called, then that might be easier to pin down.

This might be an interesting discussion.

A Charter is a legal document which may only be granted by a king, queen or legislature. I know the answer to this question so far as Britain is concerned. A warrant is granted by a legal Charter holder. That is a debate for later. One thing at a time

[cryst4l]

Yes this is a very good question indeed. I agree, and the answer is not easy.

May I ask squeakamuffin to describe what he or she means by a "masonic lodge?" Do you mean a building?

Masonic Lodges (people) used to, and still do meet, in ecclesiastical premises, and I am not sure that anyone would know exactly where the very first Masonic Lodge was holden.

If you mean the first purpose built Masonic Temple, so-called, then that might be easier to pin down.

This might be an interesting discussion.


"A lodge is a place where free-masons assemble to work and to instruct and improve themselves in the mysteries of the antient science."

So a masonic lodge is not a person as you describe, Am I correct?

EDIT: "In an extended sense it applies to persons as well as to place; hence every regular Assembly or duly organized meeting of masons is called a lodge."

[grandsecretary]

"A lodge is a place where free-masons assemble to work and to instruct and improve themselves in the mysteries of the antient science."

So a masonic lodge is not a person as you describe, Am I correct?

EDIT: "In an extended sense it applies to persons as well as to place; hence every regular Assembly or duly organized meeting of masons is called a lodge."

That is why I asked the question. Nowadays it means both. It used to be the Masons, as people, meeting or lodging together. A Masonic Lodge may meet in the middle of a desert, or a field, or in a house, a church hall, or a scout hut, and they do. It is still a masonic lodge.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/TableMeeting-1.jpg
A masonic lodge meeting in the dining room of "a gentleman". Early 18th century.

PS: As a general point of interest. You will see in the front corner of the etching, a curtain (or veil) that has been drawn aside in order to reveal the masonic meeting to the eyes of the profane world. When you see such a curtain in an old print, etching or painting it is a clear indicator that the subject is Masonic.

See an outdoor lodge here: http://mngrandmaster09.blogspot.com/2009/05/outdoor-lodge.html

[cryst4l]

That is why I asked the question. Nowadays it means both. It used to be the Masons, as people, meeting or lodging together.

It was a good question to ask :D

[grandsecretary]

Oh yes, a very good set of questions, and not easy to answer, unless you have the answers of course!

These questions are so good, that we must not let this thread disappear from view.

[keystone]

Oh yes, a very good set of questions, and not easy to answer, unless you have the answers of course!

Indeed thats why I'm looking forward to the OP commencing the "wheat from chaff" exercise.

These questions are so good, that we must not let this thread disappear from view.Yep

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Great. Well then before we can move on may I ask squeakamuffin to take some time to answer my earlier questions?

Posting #4

Many thanks.

PS: I have sent a PM to squeakamuffin asking for a response so that we may continue this discussion..

[keystone]

BUMP for the OP to come back and educate us with his answers including answering GS further questions in Post #4.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

yes please. We can't really answer you satisfactorily without clarification. It would be a pity to lose this one.

[squeakamuffin]

Germany 1250 anyone?

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasons_history_germany.html

The first Masonic congress was in 1275 in Strasbourg under the Grandmaster Erwin von Steinbach. (but who gave him his charter and why?)

But what if there was one even older than that?

http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/oldest-masonic-lodge.htmlThe Oldest Masonic Lodge in the World

The oldest Masonic Lodge in the world is the Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1, Edinburgh, Scotland...sometimes known as Mary's Chapel. In July, 1949, it observed its 350th anniversary of its establishment. In 2008, (at the time of this writing), Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1 is 409 years old.

Oldest Masonic Lodge Minutes

Oldest Masonic Lodge Minutes - July 31, 1599: Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1 has records to prove its long time existence as the Oldest Masonic Lodge. Most impressively, its first 5 pages of minutes incorporate the Schaw Statutes which are dated December 28, 1598. Six months later, on July 31, 1599, are to be found the minutes which confirm the lodge's claim as having the oldest existing Masonic minutes. It must be noted, however, that from these minutes there exists no conclusive evidence that the lodge was actually constituted on this date.

Schaw Statutes: The Schaw Statutes (part of the Old Charges) are named for William Schaw, who was Master of Work to His Majesty and General Warden of the Masonic craft. In these Statutes, he declared that theses ordinances issued by him for the regulation of lodges considered the lodge at Edinburgh to be for all time, the first and principal lodge in Scotland.

Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1 was first called "The Lodge of Edinburgh" and retained this name until 1688, when the Grand Lodge of Scotland confirmed its charter, designating it as "The Lodge of Edinburgh (Mary's Chapel) No. 1"

Prominent members belonging to the Lodge of Edinburgh in its very early days were:

His Royal Highness, the Prince of Wales (afterward called King Edward VII)
His Royal Highness King Edward VIII
Both were affiliated with the lodge, taking the obligation on the "Breeches Bible", which was printed in 1587. The pen with which these 2 brothers signed the roll is still preserved in the Edinburgh Lodge No. 1 museum.




First Operative to Speculative Freemasons

First Operative to Speculative in Scotland - 1600: As early as 1600, The Lodge of Edinburgh began to admit non-operative Freemasons. In June, 1600, the Laird of Auchinleck was made a speculative member, the first authentic record of the making of such a member.

The famous Dr. Desaguliers visited the The Lodge of Edinburgh on August 24, 1721. He had served as Grand Master of England and was referred to as "General Master Desaguliers". On the next day, while he was present, the Lord Provost of Edinburgh, the Treasurer, the Deacon Convener of the Trades and the Clerk to the Dean of the Guild Court were admitted as members. This date is thought to mark the change over from operative to speculative Freemasonry in Scotland.

Inception of Grand Lodge of Scotland - 1736: When the Grand Lodge of Scotland was established on November 30, 1736, Lodge of Edinburgh took an active part. Thirty-three lodges were represented at the meeting which was held in the lodge room of Edinburgh Lodge. Because the oldest minute of a lodge was that of Edinburgh Lodge, it was placed first on the roll of the Grand Lodge.

Lodge Kilwinning - 1642: Lodge Kilwinning was the second oldest Masonic lodge because of its records dating to December 20, 1642. Considerable friction developed in 1807 when the Grand Lodge of Scotland permitted Kilwinning to prefix the word "Mother" to its name.

___________________________________




Should you wish to visit the oldest Masonic lodge in the world, I would be remiss not to mention that Edinburgh, Scotland is also home to Edinburgh Castle, standing 300-400 feet above the city. Lit up, even after dark, looking up you will see a virtual fairyland of turrets, battlements and castle buildings.


King George VI...Grand Master of Scotland: At a quarterly communication of the Grand Lodge, held November 5, 1936, they elected unanimously, Brother, His Royal Highness, the Duke of York, (later to become King George VI) as Grand Master of Scotland.

King George VI: It was also in Edinburgh Castle's Banquet Hall that the ceremony of the installation of the Duke of York, who later became King George VI, and who was the current Queen Elizabeth's father, was carried out on St. Andrew's Day, November 30, 1936. (the bi-centenary of the Grand Lodge of Scotland...in 1736)

Past Grand Master, Ray V. Denslow, the author of the book, attended this momentous ceremony at Edinburgh Castle.

________________________________________



Therefore, Edinburgh (Ed-in-burr-uh) Lodge No. 1 claims the rank of having

The Oldest Masonic Minutes
The lodge of record where the
first Operative to Speculative Freemasonry began.


...and, therefore, due to these documented Minutes, claims its title as the Oldest Masonic Lodge in the world.


________________________________________


and...now... for the Rest of the Story...


Lodge Kilwinning...the Oldest Masonic Lodge in the World?









Here is what Albert Mackey had to say about the dispute between the oldest Masonic lodge in the world being Edinburgh Lodge No. 1 or Mother Lodge 0 Kilwinning:

Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Page 517-518, 1929, published by The Masonic History Company:



"As the city of York claims to be the birthplace of Freemasonry in England, the obscure little village of Kilwinning is entitled to the same honor with respect to the origin of the Order in the sister kingdom of Scotland.

The claim to the honor, however, in each case depends on the bare authority of a legend, the authenticity of which is now doubted by many Masonic historians.

The Abbey of Kilwinning is situated in the bailiwick of Cunningham, about 3 miles north of the royal burgh of Irving, near the Irish Sea.

The abbey was founded in the year 1140, by Hugh Morville, Constable of Scotland, and dedicated to Saint Winning, being intended for a company of monks of the Tyronesian Order, who had been brought from Kelso.

The edifice must have been constructed at great expenses and with much magnificence, since it is said to have occupied several acres of ground in its whole extent.

Traveling Freemason Architects: Lawrie (History of Freemasonry, page 46, 1859 edition) says that, by authentic documents as well as by other collateral arguments which amount almost to a demonstration, the existence of the Kilwinning Lodge has been traced back as far as the end of the 15th century.

But we know that the body of architects who perambulated the Continent of Europe and have frequently been mentioned under the name of "Traveling Freemasons", flourished at a much earlier period; and we learn, also, from Lawrie himself, that several of these operative Freemasons traveled into Scotland, about the beginning of the 12th century.

Hence, we have every reason to suppose that these men were the architects who constructed the Abbey at Kilwinning, and who first established the Institution of Freemasonry in Scotland.

If such be the fact, we must place the origin of the first Lodge in that kingdom at an earlier date, by 3 centuries, than that claimed for it by Lawrie, which would bring it much nearer, in point of time, to the great Masonic Assembly, which is traditionally said to have been convened in the year 926, by Prince Edwin, at York, in England. (
Edinbugh, Scotland is approximately 200 miles from York, England...a trip of about 4-1/2 hours by car.




King Robert Bruce "There is some collateral evidence to sustain the probability of this early commencement of Freemasonry in Scotland. It is very generally admitted that the Royal Order of Herodem was founded by King Robert Bruce, at Kilwinning.





Thory, in the Acta Latomorum, gives the following chronicle:

"Robert Bruce, King of Scotland, under the title of Robert I, created the Order of St. Andrew of Chardon, after the battle of Bannockburn, which was fought on the 24th of June, 1314.

To this Order was afterwards united that of Herodem, for the sake of the Scotch Freemasons, who formed a part of the 30,000 troops with whom he had fought an army of 100,000 Englishmen.

Grand Master King Robert Bruce: King Robert reserved the title of Grand Master to himself and his successors forever, and founded the Royal Grand Lodge of Herodem at Kilwinning."








Doctor Oliver says that "the Royal Order of Herodem had formerly its chief seat at Kilwinning; and there is every reason to think that it and Saint John's Masonry were then governed by the same Grand Lodge."

In 1820, there was published at Paris a record which states that in 1286, James, Lord Stewart, received the Earls of Gloucester and Ulster into his Lodge at Kilwinning; which goes to prove that Lodge was then existing and in active operation at that place.

The modern iconoclasts, however, who are leveling these old legends with unsparing hands, have here been at work. Brother D. Murray Lyon has attacked the Bruce legend, and in the London Freemasons Magazine (of 1868, page 14), says:

"Seeing that the Fraternity of Kilwinning never at any period practised or acknowledged other than Craft degrees, and have not preserved even a shadow of a tradition that can in the remotest degree be held to identify Robert Bruce with the holding of Masonic Courts, or the Institution of a Secret Order at Kilwinning, the Fraternity of the "Herodim", must be attributed to another than the hero of Bannockburn, and a birthplace must be sought for it in a soil still more favorable to the growth of the high grades than Scotland has hitherto proved."

He, (Murray), intimates that the legend was the invention of the Chevalier Ramsay, whose birthplace was in the vicinity of Kilwinning.

Brother Mackey says, "I confess that I look upon the legend and the documents that contain it with some favor, as at least furnishing the evidence that there has been among the Fraternity a general belief of the antiquity of the Kilwinning Lodge."

Those, however, whose faith is of a more hesitating character, will find the most satisfactory testimonies of the existence of that Lodge in the beginning of the 15th century. At that period, when James II was on the throne, the Barons of Roslin, as hereditary Patrons of Scotch Freemasonry, held their annual meetings at Kilwinning, and the Lodge at that place granted Warrants of Constitution for the formation of subordinate Lodges in other parts of the kingdom.

Kilwinning Subordinate Lodges: The lodges thus formed, in token of their respect for, and submission to, the mother Lodge whence they derived their existence, affixed the word Kilwinning to their own distinctive name; many instances of which are still to be found on the register of the Grand Lodge of Scotland---such as Canongate Kilwinning, Greenock Kilwinning, Cumberland Kilwinning, etc.

Grand Lodge of Scotland...in Edinburgh: But, in process of time, this Grand Lodge at Kilwinning ceased to retain its supremacy and finally its very existence. ...so in Scotland, the supreme seat of the Order was at length transferred from Kilwinning to the metropolis; and hence, in the doubtful document entitled the "Charter of Cologne", which purports to have been written in 1542, we find, in a list of 19 Grand Lodges in Europe, that that of Scotland is mentioned as sitting at Edinburgh, under the Grand Mastership of John Bruce.

Kilwinning Records Cannot Prove Itself as the Oldest Masonic Lodge: In 1736, when the Grand Lodge of Scotland was organized, the Kilwinning Lodge was one of its constituent Bodies, and continued in its obedience until 1743. In that year it petitioned to be recognized as the oldest Lodge in Scotland; but as the records of the original Lodge had been lost, the present Lodge could not prove, says Lawrie, that it was the identical Lodge which had first practiced Freemasonry in Scotland.

Kilwinning Lodge Secedes From the Grand Lodge of Scotland: The petition was therefore, rejected, and, in consequence, the Kilwinning Lodge seceded from the Grand Lodge and established itself as an independent Body.

Mother Kilwinning Lodge: "Mother" Kilwinning Lodge organized Lodges in Scotland; and several instances are on record of its issuing Charters as Mother Kilwinning Lodges to Lodges in foreign countries. Thus, it granted one to a Lodge in Virginia in 1758, and another in 1779 to some Brethren in Ireland calling themselves the Lodge of High Knights Templar.

Kilwinning Rejoins the Grand Lodge of Scotland: But, in 1807, the Mother Lodge of Kilwinning renounced all right of granting Charters, and came once more into the bosom of the Grand Lodge, bringing with her all her daughter Lodges.

Here terminates the connection of Kilwinning as a place of any special importance with the Freemasonry of Scotland."

...End of Albert Mackey reference information.



...and That...is the Rest of the Story about the dispute as to which of these 2 Lodges is the Oldest Masonic Lodge in the World.


Simon-Sez:

Empirical evidence supporting the history of Freemasonry prior to the 18th Century (1700s) is difficult to find. The loss of evidence of the Minutes of Lodge Kilwinning from 1140 to 1642, which might well prove it to be the oldest Masonic lodge, is a very sad loss, indeed.

However, history can be reported only as accurately as it is recorded and passed down through the generations.


So...which of these 2 lodges is the Oldest Masonic Lodge in the world? Empirical (historical) evidence going back this far is difficult (read this to mean: almost impossible) to find. Dates of the chartered foundations of Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1, Mother Lodge Kilwinning No. 0 nor Lodge of Melrose St. John No. 1...all of which were in existence in and before 1598,...and all 3 of which are named with a zero or a one in their name, have not been found. Therefore, while Lodge of Edinburgh No. 1 has in their possession the oldest Masonic lodge minutes, it may very well be possible that another lodge may, in truth, be able to claim the title of the oldest Masonic lodge in the world...if only they could prove their claim to this title. Therefore, I'll let you decide from the evidence as to which is the oldest Masonic lodge in the world.

[keystone]

I predict an incoming on a mammoth scale from the quill of GS shortly. BTW right or wrong we have got the message by now that the oldest and only authentic freemasonry comes from York apparently.

In the meantime I'll read what you wrote. :D

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

I predict an incoming on a mammoth scale from the quill of GS shortly. BTW right or wrong we have got the message by now that the oldest and only authentic freemasonry comes from York apparently.

In the meantime I'll read what you wrote. :D

Cheers

No, we have never claimed this. Free Masonry as practiced by the Free Masons at York is pre-Davidic and came to Britain from elsewhere.

Free Masonry in England was formally recognised at York in AD 926 by Royal command of King Athelstan. He granted a Royal Charter which conferred upon the Free Masons of England the right to assemble at York under the authority of a Grand Master. He appointed his own brother, Prince Edwin of York, as the first Grand Master. It is a requirement of the Charter, granted in perpetuity, that the City of York should remains the location of the Chair of the Grand Master of all Free Masons. Of course there were Free Masons in England prior to AD 926. It was King Athelstan who provided them with the invaluable right of congregation as a single body. Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry cannot be separated from its religious context, which has existed since time immemorial. The religious context of genuine Free Masonry remains an essential mark of the true Free Mason. (SOURCE: Welcome page - website of The Grand Lodge of All England)

"After the establishment of the Kilwinning (c. AD 1140) and York Lodges (AD 926) the jurisdiction and antiquity of the Grand Lodge of York over other English Lodges has invariably been acknowledged by the whole Fraternity, the principles of Freemasonry rapidly spread throughout both Kingdoms and several Lodges were erected in different parts of the island." (SOURCE: A Brief History of Lodge Mother Kilwinning No. 0, Grand Lodge of Scotland, June 1944)

Before the forming of Grand Lodge in 1736 Mother Kilwinning was a Grand Lodge in her own right issuing warrants and charters to Lodges wishing to enjoy the privileges of Freemasonry, many Lodges still carry Kilwinning's name today. Scotland being a small country it was undesirable to have two Grand Lodges so Mother Kilwinning gave up this right.

However in 1743 Grand Lodge decided to number lodges by seniority and oldest records, unfortunately Mother Kilwinning's minute books date back to 1642, previous records thought to have been smuggled by the monks to France during the reformation or destroyed in the disastrous fire at nearby Eglinton Castle. Mother Kilwinning was placed second on the roll of the Grand Lodge a position she strongly disagreed with, so withdrew and continued to issue charters as before.

This dispute lasted until 1807 when the Grand Lodge of Scotland and the Grand Lodge of Kilwinning met in Glasgow and settled their differences and a new and binding agreement was reached, that being that Mother Kilwinning was placed at the Head of the Roll of the Grand Lodge of Scotland and now has the famous and distinctive Number ' 0 '. The master of the Lodge would by right of that office become Provincial Grand Master of Ayrshire. Mother Kilwinning also gave up the right to issue warrants and charters. In 1860 during a search in Eglinton Castle the now famous Schaw statutes of 1598 and 1599 were found. (SOURCE: Welcome page of the website of Mother Lodge Kilwinning)

The original Grand Lodge Kilwinning enjoyed exactly the same historic, and pre-Catholic religious roots as The Grand Lodge at York. The Abbey at Kilwinning was a Céli Déi (Culdee) Abbey, as was St Peter's of York (York Minster) and the Abbey of Armagh in Ireland, Glastonbury etc. In fact, there was a monastery of Culdees at Kilwinning several centuries before the foundation of Kilwinning Abbey.

[keystone]

No, we have never claimed this. Free Masonry as practiced by the Free Masons at York is pre-Davidic and came to Britain from elsewhere.Maybe so. Unfortunately that IS the impression you keep giving by the tone of some of your posts. Perhaps you don't mean to but that IS how it comes across. Sorry.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Maybe so. Unfortunately that IS the impression you keep giving by the tone of some of your posts. Perhaps you don't mean to but that IS how it comes across. Sorry.

Cheers

To you, because you have your own beliefs. However, I take your comments on board keystone, but I have always said, quite straightforwardly, openly, and from day one, that I do not speak for freemasonry, per se.

I can only represent the revived Grand Lodge of All England at York, its heritage, its history, and its Free Masons.

[keystone]

...............e, but I have always said, quite straightforwardly, openly, and from day one, that I do not speak for freemasonry, per se.Indeed and so have I. Actually I think I said it yet again just recently

I can only represent the revived Grand Lodge of All England at York, its heritage, its history, and its Free Masons.Of course and you have every right so to do. I, however, represent ONLY me and unlike others regard yourselves and LDH and GLDF etc etc as freemasons irrespective of whether my own Grand Lodge (which after all only has an administrative function) regards you as regular and whether or not amity exists. As a specific example I cannot agree with the GOF which removed the requirement to believe in a Supreme Being but their members are also freemasons and I will not castigate them for it either overtly or covertly for having slightly different beliefs.

Peace.

Cheers.

[grandsecretary]

Indeed and so have I. Actually I think I said it yet again just recently

Of course and you have every right so to do. I, however, represent ONLY me and unlike others regard yourselves and LDH and GLDF etc etc as freemasons irrespective of whether my own Grand Lodge (which after all only has an administrative function) regards you as regular and whether or not amity exists. As a specific example I cannot agree with the GOF which removed the requirement to believe in a Supreme Being but their members are also freemasons and I will not castigate them for it either overtly or covertly for having slightly different beliefs.

Peace.

Cheers.

Fair enough lightgiver. I wish you well, and bid you a good night's sleep and a happy weekend.

[keystone]

Fair enough lightgiver.Who?

I wish you well, and bid you a good night's sleep and a happy weekend.Ditto.

Cheers

[kimball13]

This thread should sort the wheat from the chaff here.

Where was the first masonic lodge in Europe built?

What year was it completed and operative by?

What and why was the lodge's area chosen for? (did the area have special significance?)

And most importantly who gave this first lodge its charter?....


shot in the dark but, where ever the first unification of the tribes occured,
The Templars,
yes,
maybe either Marry Magedeline or the first king of Britton(templar rep.).

but as far as first charter either a Templar or a King, or one that carries the authority and the only one i can think of that may have that at the time would have been Mary Magedeline.

oh ya the year, either around 5 a.d. or around 33-40 a.d. just in time to mess with the Romans when they came ah knocking.

i know the first one in usa.

i also know the ones that gave the first charter to a group of masons, but other than that its a bit of guess work.

[keystone]

i know the first one in usa.

i also know the ones that gave the first charter to a group of masons, but other than that its a bit of guess work.Could you share please?

Cheers

[kimball13]

first masonic lodge in the world was just imediately after the building of the Temple of Solomon, it occured the moment a Templar paid the mason in full and offerd a bonus(so to say);) but that was not europe and after veiwing the other answers from Grandsecratary it would apear as i was right about a lodge also being whereever a group of masons gather, is that right or does it break down further to the individual,,,,,,. But im still holdig fast about around 5-40 a.d. in Britton.

Where do the Teutanic knights fit, i thought that was the Germanic version of sorts.
ive wonderd where all of this German Masonic connection is comming from, very odd.

[grandsecretary]

Who?

Ditto.

Cheers

Sorry keystone, it's late. I wish this to you both.

[lightgiver]

Sorry keystone, it's late. I wish this to you both.

Ha Ha :D

I reckon you have sweet dreams of me :D See its you who needs sleep.

It must be love.

[kimball13]

Could you share please?

Cheers

New Hampshire

[kimball13]

i just like being a bit sarcastic in a funny know it all way,,,,,,,,,,,i used to love asking if someone knew how much the earth weighed, that and someone i looked up to greatly was a past Grand Master, so i suppose it is a bit of pridefull sarcasm;)i only take the things that hurt people seriosly and if im proud of it i may make a bit of fun and poke, ya knw dont take yourself so serously, i think the masons have that in there teachings somewhere,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oops got long worded again.

[grandsecretary]

first masonic lodge in the world was just imediately after the building of the Temple of Solomon, it occured the moment a Templar paid the mason in full and offerd a bonus(so to say);) but that was not europe and after veiwing the other answers from Grandsecratary it would apear as i was right about a lodge also being whereever a group of masons gather, is that right or does it break down further to the individual,,,,,,.

This is a little confusing. I will try to assist.

A Free Masonic Lodge is formed, anywhere, by a certain minimum number of initiated Free Masons. One of them must be suitably qualified to act as the Master of the Lodge so that he may act on behalf of the Grand Master himself, by warrant, locally, carrying out the business and duties of the Grand Lodge, including, if necessary, the ceremonies of initiation.

I am afraid that I cannot go along with your theory about the Knights Templar. Free Masonry is much, much older than that.

I hope that this helps.

[grandsecretary]

Ha Ha :D

I reckon you have sweet dreams of me.

No.

[kimball13]

oh are we talking freemasons or operative or just Masonic in general, and does that include those that bestowed the rights to hold the secrets they do,


ya to the one guy here xxxxxxxxxxxx
then Templars
then Operative Masons
then Free Masons
the Free and Accepted Masons

each has a differnt start date, each passing down a set of teachings, and when it came time to include other professions or social classes a new (for lack of better words) Lodge more inclusive was formed by the previose one.

[kimball13]

This is a little confusing. I will try to assist.

A Free Masonic Lodge is formed, anywhere, by a certain minimum number of initiated Free Masons. One of them must be suitably qualified to act as the Master of the Lodge so that he may act on behalf of the Grand Master himself, by warrant, locally, carrying out the business and duties of the Grand Lodge, including, if necessary, the ceremonies of initiation.

I am afraid that I cannot go along with your theory about the Knights Templar. Free Masonry is much, much older than that.

I hope that this helps.


oh i was talking the very first set of masons, ya know when they were given there traveling papers so that borders in europe would not hinder or impede them in there work, kinda like a european work visa.

[nihil]

Just a Guess...
.

. At the Golgotha Mount? . With those who attended the trial of Jesus Christ?

.

[grandsecretary]

oh are we talking freemasons or operative or just Masonic in general, and does that include those that bestowed the rights to hold the secrets they do,


ya to the one guy here xxxxxxxxxxxx
then Templars
then Operative Masons
then Free Masons
the Free and Accepted Masons

each has a differnt start date, each passing down a set of teachings, and when it came time to include other professions or social classes a new (for lack of better words) Lodge more inclusive was formed by the previose one.

kimball. Where have you been? This has been explained time and time again.

There are two distinct forms: Ancient Free Masonry dating from time immemorial; and Moderns freemasonry dating from 1717.

Ancient Free Masonry is pre-Davidic. It was "managed", from time to time, by The Knights Templar, who were Free Masons first and then became Knights Templar second.

The Moderns form of freemasonry began in 1717. They are known as Free and Accepted Masons. They do not have any connection whatsoever with the original religious Knights Templar.

Both systems were, and are, speculative, and non-operative. Certain stones are numinous.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/Athelstanstone.jpg

This numinous stone, in Kingston-upon-Thames, used for the coronation of King Adelstan (Athelstan), is dated AD925.

[nihil]

A Phallic Cult ?

Shiva's Lingam ?

[kimball13]

This is a little confusing. I will try to assist.

A Free Masonic Lodge is formed, anywhere, by a certain minimum number of initiated Free Masons. One of them must be suitably qualified to act as the Master of the Lodge so that he may act on behalf of the Grand Master himself, by warrant, locally, carrying out the business and duties of the Grand Lodge, including, if necessary, the ceremonies of initiation.

I am afraid that I cannot go along with your theory about the Knights Templar. Free Masonry is much, much older than that.

I hope that this helps.

im currios what degree are you.

funny i thought some thought it was an egyptian thing,,,,,,also funny most dont want to talk about the Atlantean things either.

i just ask about the degree thingy because i understand you can only speak of what you know and are taught to be. Trust me i understand.

i also understand allot of info is mixted up, and when i refer to Templar im talking way back, probley didnot call themselves templars yet remaind the same type thing.

oh ya it was Manly P. Hall whom also mentioned Atlantis in his book Your Amazing Powers, i had one there were only 5,000 and when i saw and knew what was happening i burned it with my chanupa for some very good reasons.
ya im poor(in matierals) and a book like that may be worth a few,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but hay it was a door to pandora, where do you think all that The Secret stuff cam from, oh ya use it for gain, good idea, Idiots.
that was the mistake Atlantis made.

Masonic laws are outdated, the laws once in place to ensure the survival of the ways has become a haven for criminals and perversions of all sorts.
Please dont take this personaly, it is but a few that have used Masonic networks to cause this to happen but it was allowed to continue by sighting mason doctine and law to justifie continueing of there pervresions under the protection of there bretheren,,,,,,,,,,,,this is why i cannot join, i cannot follow a man less ritchouse than myself, that and i was told to never enter in through the lower degrees.
it is true, i knew before the world head of the Templars, about what happend here in America to the group.


Here is a question Who can enter at or above 33 degree without having to go through the apreticshipt degrees.

[nihil]

Could be apreticshipt... :confused:

[grandsecretary]

A Phallic Cult ?

Shiva's Lingam ?

No, but it demonstrates that Free Masonry has Pagan Celtic/Druidic roots. The name Adelstan means "Noble Stone" in Anglo-Saxon English.

[grandsecretary]

im currios what degree are you.

funny i thought some thought it was an egyptian thing,,,,,,also funny most dont want to talk about the Atlantean things either.

i just ask about the degree thingy because i understand you can only speak of what you know and are taught to be. Trust me i understand.

i also understand allot of info is mixted up, and when i refer to Templar im talking way back, probley didnot call themselves templars yet remaind the same type thing.

oh ya it was Manly P. Hall whom also mentioned Atlantis in his book Your Amazing Powers, i had one there were only 5,000 and when i saw and knew what was happening i burned it with my chanupa for some very good reasons.
ya im poor(in matierals) and a book like that may be worth a few,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but hay it was a door to pandora, where do you think all that The Secret stuff cam from, oh ya use it for gain, good idea, Idiots.
that was the mistake Atlantis made.

Masonic laws are outdated, the laws once in place to ensure the survival of the ways has become a haven for criminals and perversions of all sorts.
Please dont take this personaly, it is but a few that have used Masonic networks to cause this to happen but it was allowed to continue by sighting mason doctine and law to justifie continueing of there pervresions under the protection of there bretheren,,,,,,,,,,,,this is why i cannot join, i cannot follow a man less ritchouse than myself, that and i was told to never enter in through the lower degrees.
it is true, i knew before the world head of the Templars, about what happend here in America to the group.


Here is a question Who can enter at or above 33 degree without having to go through the apreticshipt degrees.

The problem is that you only know about the Moderns form of Rosicrucian freemasonry with its 33 degree system. That is not Ancient Free Masonry. Ancient Free Masonry, not connected with the Moderns form of freemasonry, is pre-Davidic. It dates from time immemorial (thousands of years ago).

American freemasonry is a spin-off from the Moderns form (as late as 1717). It is very new. Their Knights Templar is just dressing up and play-acting. It has absolutely no connection whatsoever with the original, or real Knights Templar. It is a themed men's club.

The original form of Ancient Free Masonry does not have a degree system.

[kimball13]

kimball. Where have you been? This has been explained time and time again.

There are two distinct forms: Ancient Free Masonry dating from time immemorial; and Moderns freemasonry dating from 1717.

Ancient Free Masonry is pre-Davidic. It was "managed", from time to time, by The Knights Templar, who were Free Masons first and then became Knights Templar second.

The Moderns form of freemasonry began in 1717. They are known as Free and Accepted Masons. They do not have any connection whatsoever with the original religious Knights Templar.

Both systems were, and are, speculative, and non-operative. Certain stones are numinous.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/Athelstanstone.jpg

This numinous stone, in Kingston-upon-Thames, used for the coronation of King Adelstan (Athelstan), is dated AD925.

no offence but im not to into chaffe.

might be the time i spent with the indigenouse and how oral history is spoken and such, time is not the mane point in more earth based,

i was speaking of the older, yet i was also speaking of the new.

i see no difference in it to some degree because as the old passed away and formed what is now so to must what is now pass away to come together with the old again,,,,,,,

The ones that comitioned the building of the Temple gave the operative masons there charter so to speak is where i was going with it, so for a mason to someday become a Templar may mean that the Templars came before.


Oh the were have i been answer is, not listening to disinfo on conspiracy sights,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ive observed and understood instead of memorizing and manipulateing,,,,,,,,,,ive been doing what you might say a leader does,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ive been veiwing the info and such not from any group but from my heart.

i did it in the old ways, i went and learned what the peoples where i live do and took note when i recognized certain things and then i went and looked it up,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a type of spiritual vetting prosess. I could have had what most aspire for several times yet i had a duty, and that duty would not allow me to be dishonest spiritualy or emotionaly,,,,,and this is why i never asked as well as why one told me i could never become yet i was the best Mason he knows, so i wonder what am i, am i one of the hiden leaders, or instead of hiden am i imprisoned by a few bad apples.

i mean no disrespect and i applaud you and you tolerance in comming to this forum and being honest,,,,,,im sure some brethren may not aprove yet maybe the do aprove, maybe some dont uderstand, or maybe and elder asked you to do this, i wonder maybe youve met my Gramps, he was a very wise and knowlegable man, he said when i outgrow my anger i will be a man of great charector, i knew what he ment, i was only 9 at the time,,,,,,,,,yet it was that letter to my mother that started an onslaught of abuse by others to try to ingrain anger and such in me through abuse,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So ya im a bit ignorant on some things, yet i am usualy right about most, and the moral is always correct. I chose to learn of the native ways, i knew that i could not endure the corruption i saw, yet i saw the birth of that very corruption and learned, and now i carry an understanding of the native's as well as europeons that because of shame they burry as they drift from truth.

[kimball13]

oh its not your info or yo that is chaffe it is the conditoning of us all.

[kimball13]

The problem is that you only know about the Moderns form of Rosicrucian freemasonry with its 33 degree system. That is not Ancient Free Masonry. Ancient Free Masonry, not connected with the Moderns form of freemasonry, is pre-Davidic. It dates from time immemorial (thousands of years ago).

American freemasonry is a spin-off from the Moderns form (as late as 1717). It is very new. Their Knights Templar is just dressing up and play-acting. It has absolutely no connection whatsoever with the original, or real Knights Templar. It is a themed men's club.

The original form of Ancient Free Masonry does not have a degree system.

oh cool that is way cool, that would meen that the creme was creme no mater what you called it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,kinda like some sog in the feild(sog=spec ops group) the one with the most expeirence in a feild lead the way,,,,,,,,,hence the term brotherhood all equal, all part of a body to make the whole, a foot no matter what it does cannot advance to become a head no matter how hot it gets(get it hot, degrees),,,,,,,,,,,

[nihil]

Satanists

^
Occult Magick Societies

^
Bilderberg Group, CFR, ADL

^
-----------------------------------
MOG = Masonic Occupied Governments
.

* USA

* UK

* UN (All of European Countries)

* China

* Is Ra El

* Canada

* Australia

* Iraq

* Afghanistan

* Pakistan

* Suisse

* Luxembourg

.
MOG = Masonic Occupied Governments
-----------------------------------

^
Secret Services

^
Mafia, Gangs, Drug Cartels, Triad Tong

^
Cattle/Sheeple/ YOU .


.

[grandsecretary]

kimball, my posting is very clear.

Please take your time, read it carefully, visit our website, and try to benefit from the information that is here for you.

There are two very separate and distinct forms, totally unconnected with each other:

1) Ancient Free Masonrie inseparably involved with the real live Knights Templar, and

2) The Moderns Rosicrucian form of freemasonry (your American AF&AM), described by itself as "a product of The Enlightenment". No connection whatsoever with anything or anyone prior to its formation in 1717. Its Knights Templar is just dressing up, and play acting.

Free Masonrie (the Ancient form) was, and is, nothing to do with creme. It was, and is religious Holy Orders. We are the servants of God.

I realise that you are not being offensive, and trying to be light hearted, but we take this very seriously. Thanks for your input anyway and I wish you well with your researches.

[kimball13]

kimball, my posting is very clear. It could not be clearer.

Please take your time, read it carefully, visit our website, and try to benefit from the information that is here, for your benefit.

There are two very separate and distinct forms, totally unconnected with each other:

1) Ancient Free Masonry inseparably involved with the real live Knights Templar, and

2) The Moderns Rosicrucian form of freemasonry (your American AF&AM), described by itself as "a product of The Enlightenment". No connection whatsoever with anything or anyone prior to its formation in 1717. Its Knights Templar is just dressing up, and play acting.

Cannot be clearer. If you can't accept this then there is nothing I can do for you.

got you the first time,.

i also there is also the Manly thing and the book and atlantis.

to be honest ive read allot of info from the current proprietors of certain things and find allot is missing,.

The 1307 thingy did a wamy big time.
The current issues are not much differnt,.
I accepted it when i was in the Scotish rite clinic as a boy, i accepted it in there hall when i was but a boy of 6,,,,,,,,,,i also accept that York and Scottish are tow different things,,,,,,,,,,,,i also accept why it is a current system still learning yet at the same time telling everyone we know.

I dont know about over where your at, but when i have a shriner i dont know, from the old ya gotta prove your metal times, pull up and warn me and i look over and see a very large scotish rite temple ive put a few things together,,,,,,,,,its almost like the senat taking over congress, think of the problems and monopolys that take place.

And maybe none have noticed we are talking about to seprate lodges pre 1717 and the Real ones, or the ones claiming it, because then the question is this what about pre-1307,,,,,,,,,,,,the time is now,,,,,full disclosure,,,,,,,,in otherwords brotherhoods of secrets have outlived there usefullness,,,,,,,especialy if some are allowed to freely publish secrets and get away with it to make a few bucks and elevate themselves socialy,,,,,,,,,,,,this new concept of making a buck off a secret that is for the use of the Mason alone is very damageing to many,,,,,,,,it carrys with it a very crafty spirit of greed and destruction that is the mason enemy.

Think positive, attitude is everything, etc, The Secret,,,,,,,,,,,,,,all can be found in Manly P. Halls writtings as well as many others before him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,why is this a bad thing well,,,,,,,,think of it this way,,,,you can think positive and have a good attitude while your hacking up and eating someone, then go about your day and know one will be the wiser, this is the end results and danger in doing this little secret to much or with the wrong moral charactor.

Good thing i knew of this as a boy and was not a sicko, because if i was and knew what i knew uh-oh,,,,,,,,,,,,oh ya, someone wanted to see what would happen if i repressed it and they let the other one that had knowledge remember and trained, heck he even consulted some of yous guys, let me see he did everything others acused me of before i even could perform such things,,,,,,,,,,talk about a big goof up,,,,,,,,,or was it someones hay lets see if good does always truimph, then you try to teach me and make me submit in a passive agresive way,,,,,,,,,,,,oh boy, passive agresive mind games of submission, thats illuminate training/jesuit,,,,,,,,,the power of the will is a dangerous thing for the one that chooses to use that as a weopon, especialy when they come up against one that bends yet does not break, one with the strength of an oak and flexability of the willow oh ya dont forget the smell and beuty of a rose and thorns to boot.

Remote influencing and will power are two very dangerouse things,,,,,,,here is a clue and another subject,,,,,,alcohol causes one to be more suseptable to remote influenceing,,,,,,,,hence the reason why your given wine at comunion, why preists are not to be given any(according to scripture), why muslims dont drink, and also why the long haired magical kings could not drink,,,,,,,,,,all secrets kept secret to long and the reason is this, the enemy knows all these things but do the ones they hunt,.

Most of what i know is a bit far out even for me and has taken allot of experiences to learn as well as prove to myself, it was after the life experience that i then started on research, what i found was allot of what i learned with allot of filler in the gaps to keep a persons interest and promote devision,,,,,,,,,,then i also noticed another truth, what i learned was found all over the world in many cultures includeing masons,,,,as i also found the same mistakes and such,,,,,,,,,......I then notice what ive known for awhile, true sprituality was fractured, the tower of bable story,,,and where there was filler if that was removed and replaced with a spiritual truth from another culture it fit perfectly, even moreso than the filler did,.

Im about to go into some of what was found at the chapel and used by the vatican, so im going to stop there,,,,,,,,but here is a clue,,,,,,,,,,the wine is for the people, a little is to be given to the deacons, and none is to be give to the preists(includeing nazarites), the preist and such have there type of drink at the end of a hard day stuff, by the way for the preists and nazarites its not a drink.

So what i can make of it, lines got blurred and it is fun to discuss history, because it uncovers hidden knowledge and answers questions,,,,,,for me its not about dates and such, the moral of the story is my gift of sight, memorization and such is someone elses,,,,,,,its not that i dont care or have the ability, its just that is not a gift or pleasure of mine and consumes to much time and space,,,,kinda like a foot cant turn into a head no matter how hard it tries, same to for a head looking at the foot and knowing what the ground feals like, thats not a place for the head unless resting(meditating,quite time).


One good thing about dates and such though is did you know the same time columbus was on his way to the carribean Spain kicked out there entire jewish population,,,,,,there was anther interesting thing,,,,,,,,,its just facinating when you see that two seprate things occuring at the same time can have an impact and or show how organized some groups were,,,,,,,,,,spain and france with the backing of the vatican realy did a number, heck it wasnt even the spanish, french and catholics, it was just a handfull of powerhungry wackos stabing the rightfull leaders in the back then covering it up with the Roman Catholic machine,,,,,,,,,,,,,the whole Macheveli concept realy went to town on humanity, still havent read macheveli but i see the whole devide and conquere concept all over.

[kimball13]

notice your York, cool i dont think any resentments there.

But the Scotish rite in good old USA got some splainin to do, and by the way i will look at the site Grandsecratary,.

funny the stamp looks like my dad, with a beard and if he got that old. funny though according to the date he was, creepy the same age as my father when he died or there abouts give or take a year but the same age,,,,,,realy creepy considering the other things ive had to prosess,,,,,includeing the archetyple similaritys to other notables, oops, funny history repeats itself but the falure or defeats seem to be going in reverse for me, yet not those before me,,,,,,,case in point Daggobert's and the story of his death and his sons escape, just for one, now this, usualy i just set it aside and proces it fro a few years until im pushed up against a wall or other such thing occurs, then i have to find more than just looking like and age of death, so i am going to go on a exploration and i just wanted to say hay wow this is intesting on a personal level as well as what was a bit of an interest before it was personal, i just never wanted to pay attention to the players much,,,,,,,,,,,or place the responsobility of the knowledge and wisdom ive accumulated on one teacher or way,,,,,,i did not want to missinterpet someone elses work but only learn and pay my respects for the teachings and become there peer if still alive,,,,,,,and if someone from antiqueity i took the lessons and did not add to what i was not heart sure of as well as intelctualy and left the speculative side to those that debate and study date,times,places,translations,biographys, etc,,,,,,i try my best to not carry on with covert charector assasination of the living or dead, and if an idea starts to form a belief i state my belief asking for either correction or comfirmation, this to in my personal life, no judgement towards anyone other than my beliefs,,,,,,,,,and for that belief to either grow or die depends on the truth which i cannot always find on my own understanding, if an idea takes foothold it then starts to grow into belief, then from beleif to faith, that faith is what is the guide to Truth, there is only one Truth for every question, so if someone asks what is the one undiversal Truth, the answer depends on where your standing and looking at,,,,,,,,,some say i think to much, others may say im complicated and some say complex,,,,,,,,,yet when some take the time and meditate or just listen without judgement(feeling judged)they hear and understand and also realize i dont read minds, i was given that gift for a time and asked God about it,,,,,,,,,,the only answer i got was this, right to privacy. The thoughts of another are between them and God to judge, maybe this is why a sinful thought is the worst especialy if it became an action yet still remains as a hidden thought, a question of values and such never asked because your taught to ask antoher is to submit to there authority,,,,,,,,,,,which is strange because a good leader and King asks questions to make sure his info is correct and hes on the right track.

A True King is his peoples student, usualy the worst student but then that is why all the help, but because he is the only student his people must teach he can also be the best student and become a teacher to his people.

[kimball13]

But the thing i like about your site realy is the Coat of arms, funny the alter i was taught to use by the Lakota is the very same thing, realy moreso than most know, funny i pointed the same things out to many refering to biblcle symbolisms and such.

its the throne of God is what is being depicted as in Revalations, sorry to say not the four sided head dudes. Those are the four beasts of God.

funny the order though, yet not because the order the beasts are in forms the masonic symbol they are known for, yet in the bible and lakota when going by those connect the dots form a circle, funny another mystery and it looks as though it is to you guys to.

now that i think of it, it makes perfect sense combining the two and looking at the path drawn, makes it simple to explane to some whom dont believe that truth is in every culture.

starting at the eagle(west), then lion(north)(east,calf)south man, well the patern to complet this journey of teaching is similar to a circle with they masonic symbol, put this witha spiral, and walla a circular pyramid,,,,,,,,,,,2012 to the Mayans is realy what im getting at,,,but there is another body of pertanant info.

[kimball13]

yep all it took is a glance of The Kirkwall Scrolls.

i should spend time on it i could have allot of funn translateing that into Lakota form of spirituality then back and carry with that translation a bit more discovery.

[kimball13]

upper right hand the 12 dots and what looks like snake,,,,,,,,,especialy if thats a snake, 12 stones(elders)make the circle marking the directions and four winds and there 3 roots,,,,,,,,the snake is interesting because the lakota are of the Souix nations, souix means snake, if my memory serves me correctly,,,,,,damit that may be a decent thread, seeing what other see in that Scroll. could be educational to us all includeing the Lodge.

[nihil]

.

Masons derive from Medieval Trolls, easily found in the nearbies of bridges and easily corrupted with two (2) copper coins .

.
. . This is the first (1st) Mason:


http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5154/049mskigbo.jpg

.
. . This is his oldest tool (found until now): the ignominous Baals Bridge Square...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6390/baalsbridgesquare.jpg

Baal's Bridge Square

Troll's Lodge 13 have in their archives an old brass square that was found under the foundations of Baals Bridge.
This Square dated 1507 is reputed to be one of the earliest Masonic items in the world.
The old brass square, known as the Baal's Bridge Square, was recovered from the foundations of Baal's Bridge in Limerick when the bridge was being rebuilt in 1830.

It is inscribed

'I will strive to live with Love and Care Upon the Level By the Square'

and bears the date, 1507.

.

[grandsecretary]

The First Free Mason:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/TheGeometrician.jpg

[nihil]

Yours is TheGeometrician.jpg
.

Here's mine :

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1908/104songyemsk.jpg

...may it be the 1st mason ??

[grandsecretary]

Deleted due to technical fault. Sorry.

[grandsecretary]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6390/baalsbridgesquare.jpg

Disert Oenghusa Church, Limerick City, Limerick

The monastery at this site was founded by the great reformer Oenghus the Culdee (AD815). The present church on the sight dates back to the 15th or 16th century, and incorporates part of an older church, with later renovations occurring throughout history.

[nihil]

So the square comes from constructions and bridges

and the compass from navigational charts .

.
Sorta Sail' Ho and build a Church somewhere... à la Cristobal Colon ?? (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78542) .

.

[keystone]

and the compass from navigational charts .No. Its a construction tool like the square.


Cheers

[nihil]

Before GPS the routes on navigational charts were calculated with rulers and

...a compass .

[keystone]

Before GPS the routes on navigational charts were calculated with rulers and

...a compass .They still are. Sole reliance on GPS for fixing the ship is navigationally foolhardy. In navigation Compasses are used with a chart. A Compass is used for taking bearings - different instruments. Masonically the compasses are a constructional tool not a navigational one. Thats what I meant when I said you were wrong in post 54.

Cheers

[squeakamuffin]

To a lot of occult students what is interesting is that there was freemasons who even in the 10th and 11th century Europe were chartered to carry out initiations and give degrees.

So it begs the question where did they get their cue from?

Who would have had access to the ritual manuscripts and would have had the ability and means to have taken them across Europe between Germany and Britain?

(oh also has a side note Mother Lodge initiated the Royal House of Stewart in the 1200's long before Rosslyn Chapel was even an idea.)

And keep in mind this is long before the Templar exile from europe after the pope of the time banned the Templars, and their covine fled to Scotland.

[nihil]

The Legend of the first lodge of brothafellas heads to the Temple of Solomon .

[keystone]

The Legend of the first lodge of brothafellas heads to the Temple of Solomon .

Legend

Legend, typically, is a short (mono-) episodic, traditional, highly ecotypified historicized narrative performed in a conversational mode, reflecting on a psychological level a symbolic representation of folk belief and collective experiences and serving as a reaffirmation of commonly held values of the group to whose tradition it belongs." - Timothy R. Tangherlini 1990



Quite.

Cheers

[nihil]

The Myth of the first lodge of brothafellas heads to the Temple of Solomon .

[keystone]

The Myth of the first lodge of brothafellas heads to the Temple of Solomon .

Myth

1. A story of a great but unknown age which embodies a belief regarding some fact or phenomenon of experience, and in which often the forces of nature and of the soul are personified; an ancient story of a god, a hero, the origin of a race, etc.; a wonder story of prehistoric origin or;

2. A person or thing existing only in imagination, or whose actual existence is not verifiable. This word originates from the Sanskrit word "Mithya"; with the same meaning or;

3. A commonly-held belief.

Quite.

Cheers

[nihil]

hitherto only an imagination .

[keystone]

hitherto only an imagination .Don't take things out of context. You also need to allow for ", or whose actual existence is not verifiable." The "," links the two parts of the sentence together emphatically.

Cheers

[nihil]

The Myth of the first Lodge of brothafellas heads to the Legend of the Temple of Solomon .

Hitherto only an imagination, whose actual existence is not verifiable .

A credo .