Man throws sick wife off balcony

[lumukanda]

Man throws sick wife off balcony

Kansas City, Missouri - A man threw his seriously ill wife four stories to her death because he could no longer afford to pay for her medical care, prosecutors said in charging him with second-degree murder.

According to court documents filed on Wednesday in Jackson County Circuit Court, Stanley Reimer walked his wife to the balcony of their apartment and kissed her before throwing her over.

The body of Criste Reimer, 47, was found on Tuesday night outside the apartment building, near the upscale Country Club Plaza shopping district.

Stanley Reimer, 51, was charged on Wednesday. He remained jailed on $250 000 bond and was scheduled to be arraigned on Thursday.

In the probable cause statement filed with the charges, police said Reimer was desperate because he could not pay the bills for his wife's treatment for neurological problems and uterine cancer.

Investigators said that Reimer was in the apartment when they arrived. He told them, "She didn't jump", but did not elaborate, they said.

Criste Reimer's caregiver told police she could barely walk and would not have been able to climb over the railing of the balcony, according to the probable cause statement.

Reimer's alleged motive emerged after several more hours of questioning, police said.

No health insurance

According to Jackson County Probate Court records, Criste Reimer had been in ill health for several years. Her weight had fallen to 34kg and she was partly blind.

According to the court records, she had no health insurance to pay for medical bills that ranged from $700 to $800 per week.

The Probate Court documents were filed in April, when Stanley Reimer petitioned to be allowed to sell personal property his wife owned in Wheeler County, Texas, for $20 000.

The documents listed her assets at approximately $6 700, with monthly income of $725 from oil royalties and a government payment for the disabled.

It was not immediately known if Stanley Reimer had an attorney.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2165567,00.html

i dunno what makes me angrier, the fact that he did that to his wife, or the fact that the so called 'health' system drove him to it..

[umbrex]

i dunno what makes me angrier, the fact that he did that to his wife, or the fact that the so called 'health' system drove him to it..

i'd go with "the system did it!"

[lumukanda]

it's pretty sad either way...

[umbrex]

it's pretty sad either way...

well, i just watched sicko 2 days ago, so i can follow the frustration.

This isn't definitive either, who knows - maybe the wife asked him too, and it might have been an act of charity.

A person weighing in at 34 kg doesn't have a long time to go.

[lumukanda]

i have a suspicion that she asked him to, i can't imagine being in a position like that.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Colour me Outraged!

I am outraged, I say!, Throw your wife off a high balcony, is murder!

Husbands do have duties to their wife, to comfort and help, especially when the path becomes difficult. The 'Worst case scenario', painful, terminal illness. The transition from 'this life' could have been accomplished in a much more Humane manner.

This event speaks poorly as to the Husbands 'Character'.

My opinion, a lenthy prison term would be merciful.

Colour me disgusted! Notso Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[i_am]

i dunno what makes me angrier, the fact that he did that to his wife, or the fact that the so called 'health' system drove him to it..

The (so called) health system!! Desperation can drive people to do things that they would not normally contemplate. I think he probably could have found a more humane way to end her life though.

[limelady]

well, i just watched sicko 2 days ago, so i can follow the frustration.

This isn't definitive either, who knows - maybe the wife asked him too, and it might have been an act of charity.

A person weighing in at 34 kg doesn't have a long time to go.

She may have been happy to die, but would she have askedto be thrown 4 stories to her death? But if this was the case, I sincerely hope she was filled to the gills with pain-killers before he did it so she didn't know what was happening.

The whole thing is totally horrific!

[cheesedanish]

she always said that she wanted to Fly.....

[thetonic]

Oh man this is absoulutely insane and makes me feel so sorry for the both of them for what they both have endured and will endure... I am totally against this oppressive health care we have in place... It could make people ill with no money want to die ...:confused::mad::(

[smariot]

It might have been almost romantic, if not a little morbid, if he decided to embrace her for the duration of the fall.

[earthseed]

Think of what people will be doing when the economy finally dies yet they still expect you to keep on paying. All the systems are for the elite it's just another well planned depopulation program.

[infinitetruth]

They create a system - trick us into thinking that its better relying on them, then ourselves. So we rely on them, we forget how to look after ourselves, then they limit the help they give and we suffer.

The man was probably sick of watching his wife suffer, sick of feeling helpless. She was probably sick of him having to look after her, sick of seeing him unhappy, pressured, stressed. Having looked after someone who was unwell, I can understand the tough times you can face - sometimes they are literally unbearable.

[binhdinh_khiwarrior]

what fuckin "system", the only system i can see is the systematic destruction of the poor

[notaslave]

...reminds me to get sick alone.

[truthsayer]

Having watched my mum care for my dad with Cancer and watch it eat him away stripping a person of everything as well as money, I can easily see how it can get too much for both parties.

Snoopsnuffleopagus, I think you judge too harshly without experience or at least empathy. You not not know or can imagine what he or his wife were going through and to pass such heavy judgement makes you a candidate for policing your own state.

I don't condone the taking of life, but I can not judge someone who becomes so desperate into such an act whereby I do not know what it feels like, so I simply don't judge at all.

What about the death penalty? Does a license to kill make the executioner guilt free of taking another's life?

[i_am]

Having watched my mum care for my dad with Cancer and watch it eat him away stripping a person of everything as well as money, I can easily see how it can get too much for both parties.

Snoopsnuffleopagus, I think you judge too harshly without experience or at least empathy. You not not know or can imagine what he or his wife were going through and to pass such heavy judgement makes you a candidate for policing your own state.

I don't condone the taking of life, but I can not judge someone who becomes so desperate into such an act whereby I do not know what it feels like, so I simply don't judge at all.

What about the death penalty? Does a license to kill make the executioner guilt free of taking another's life?

:) Yes! It is very easy to be judgemental, if you have not been in that position. Seeing someone you love waste away is horrific enough but coupled with the desperation of being refused medical assistance because you have no insurance and no money could drive you to desperate measures.

I in no way condone what he did but can understand why he did it. I cannot understand why he used such a cruel metod but when your mind is in the state his probably was, I guess reason deserts you. Everyone has a different level of coping. Everyone has a limit and all are different.

I feel only compassion for both and their families.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings & Salutations! truthsayer & i am:

Methinks you judge too harshly, as I have walked these paths. I am the most empathetic person you will ever meet. Immediate family members with the same qualities.

Steel is forged in Fire.

You say: desparate, You say he can present you with justification for 'helping his wife over the balcony'.

I say: mean, and nasty. sunnavabich. He could never justify his action to me, I would not accept any justification.

BUT, he doesn't have to justify himself to me.

I know this.

Methinks the lad with the paucity of empathy, is the one who helped his wife over the balcony.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

Addendum: Argument for Death Penalty: Crime: Adult(s) sexually assaulting minors and/or killing a minor(s).

Precedent in Law: Yahshua Messiah advocating suicide to any adult(s) who would commit such crimes.

[truthsayer]

Greetings & Salutations! truthsayer & i am:

Methinks you judge too harshly, as I have walked these paths. I am the most empathetic person you will ever meet. Immediate family members with the same qualities.

Steel is forged in Fire.

You say: desparate, You say he can present you with justification for 'helping his wife over the balcony'.

I say: mean, and nasty. sunnavabich. He could never justify his action to me, I would not accept any justification.

BUT, he doesn't have to justify himself to me.

I know this.

Methinks the lad with the paucity of empathy, is the one who helped his wife over the balcony.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

Addendum: Argument for Death Penalty: Crime: Adult(s) sexually assaulting minors and/or killing a minor(s).

Precedent in Law: Yahshua Messiah advocating suicide to any adult(s) who would commit such crimes.

I repeat I saw what both my mum and dad endured, I can not completely dismiss euthanasia here or an individuals right to die, whether I agree or not. That to me, is an individuals right and is justification enough.

I am troubled that you condemn a troubled and desperate man with a dying wife yet can agree with a death penalty whose system is flawed and has killed innocent people, please justify corporal punishment over this mans actions to a dying wife?

I see a double standard here.

I hear no understanding or empathy in your words.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings truthsayer!:

Consider: 2nd Degree Murder charge. This is a serious charge with a criminal motive .not desparate, 'Real' motive emerged after several hours of questioning: Financial 250,000 Bail. I have alot of empathy for womans family and friends.

Sure, I am all for individual choice for euthanasia,(hemlock society). Your, or immediate family choice. In a Humane manner.

Now the key verb is 'Throw' over the balcony, that is proactive on this misguided lads part.

Empathy, of course, yet utter disgust and contempt for his solution.

My criteria for Death Penalty is very limited. This dope would not be executed.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[truthsayer]

Greetings truthsayer!:

Consider: 2nd Degree Murder charge. This is a serious charge with a criminal motive .not desparate, 'Real' motive emerged after several hours of questioning: Financial 250,000 Bail. I have alot of empathy for womans family and friends.

Sure, I am all for individual choice for euthanasia,(hemlock society). Your, or immediate family choice. In a Humane manner.

Now the key verb is 'Throw' over the balcony, that is proactive on this misguided lads part.

Empathy, of course, yet utter disgust and contempt for his solution.

My criteria for Death Penalty is very limited. This dope would not be executed.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

I am sorry, but I simply can not agree that taking a life justifies taking another life as a form of punishment.

If the 'murderer' had no 'right' to take life where does an executioner have the 'right' to take a life. Murder is murder, as you seem so bent on reminding us, yet you can bend the rules for an executioner. I say it again, its a double standard and its flawed.

Where there is any percentage of flaw that an innocent person can be 'murdered' by this form of punishment then it should not exist. I repeat innocent people have lost their lives through the death penalty. Justification enough to scrap it.

As for a man throwing his wife off the balcony, were you in his shoes, do you have any idea what on earth was going through his mind, what conversation he may have had with his wife that led up to that moment? No you do not, yet pass such a heavy judgement.

Again, I do not condone the taking of any life, I am against the death penalty for that very reason, but at the same time, do not judge what you have not lived through and make a judgement so harsh as of you have.

Again, it is such a character as yours that I feel will police its own people because of the harshness of judgement you place on your fellow human being. Life its not as black and white as you paint it, and part of love and healing that we so desperately need in this world is backing off on the heavy judgement call of the individual whereby we have not lived their life or know them to pass such judgements.

So do you think Bush should get off scot free for allowing 9/11 or get the death penalty? Here we continue to see the double standard, the flaw in the system of judgement.

We scrapped it here in the UK many years ago and one very public case of an innocent man dying at the hands of a system you put so much faith in is part of that reason.

An innocent man judged guilty by a flawed system and lost his life. Where does it end?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings truthsayer!:

First & foremost this issue is a non-starter. Put yourself in the shoes of this womans family. You have made false assignations as to the quality of my character. Examine yourself!

It seems you did not read the link to the source of the story. Prosecuters have a wide lattitude, scope of charges to draw from. From misdemeanor
manslaughter to various homicide charges.

2nd degree murder is implicit as to criminal intent. I most certainly have put myself in this mans shoes, And I will never accept his solution. His motive was Financial, this is in the linked story. You should search-engine the criminals name, maybe find something interesting.

Your entire position is built on shifting sands. How will you protect the children? how will you champion the weak?

There are some lads and lasses, you can 'Beam Sunshine' at them all day,but they will remain a danger to other members of society.

I only advocate the Death Penalty for defilers and murderers of children. Whats wrong with that? I have been studying and employing empathy, long before you were even swimmin' around in your pappys sack. You can blow all the 'Sunshine' you want up this crumbs ass, but a 'road to Damascus' moment is farfetched.

I will end with this caveat, Monsieur Empathy. Pray, pray to whatever it is you pray to. That a sexual predator never harms a child who is dear to you.
How empathetic will you be then?

This woman was somebodys daughter, maybe a sister to someone. She was a fellow human, thrown, tossed, flung, hurled, airmailed over a FOURTH floor balcony rail. My empathy is properly measured and placed. Honour for the departed and a Chain Gang for the crumb at the Louisiana State Farm in Angola for a few decades. Colour me Humane & Enlightened.

I am the Flower Child in a long line of Berserkers.

Give it up truthsayer!!, you have chosen to champion a piece of shit that threw his wife off a 4th floor balcony for FINANCIAL reasons. Whats up with that? Read the linked story!

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus


Addendum: I think that smariots response was the best take on this sordid affair.

Addendum 2: Additional information at: hicktownpress.com/stanley reimer

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen:

I urge all of you to enter above web address into search engine and read article there.

According to this article: The woman was living safely and comfortably with her Family, the guy went there and 'retreived' her, bringinging her to his home, which has an middle or upper middle class ambience.

He initially informs Police, 'she jumped!'.

Read both articles and reconsider.

Rather than JUDGEMENT, it is Judgement, weighed with Discernment.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[truthsayer]

Ladies & Gentlemen:

I urge all of you to enter above web address into search engine and read article there.

According to this article: The woman was living safely and comfortably with her Family, the guy went there and 'retreived' her, bringinging her to his home, which has an middle or upper middle class ambience.

He initially informs Police, 'she jumped!'.

Read both articles and reconsider.

Rather than JUDGEMENT, it is Judgement, weighed with Discernment.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

I don't condone taking a life and if his sole intention was murder then that is wrong what I was disagreeing with you on, is your jumping to conclusions and judgement before reading the article and body of evidence you now present. Innocent until proven guilty, is he not?

Despite the sheeple nature of our fellow humans I still like to believe in the good of our human race and also that until we have such facts (and can still never know everything) not to pass such heavy judgements before we do. This was my argument with you.

You passed a guilty judgement without any evidence either way, that is what I find unfair and harsh on any human being.

If he is guilty of murder, I still do not believe in taking his life as punishment either, the death penalty is of the dark ages. Its the bible bashing taking over political and judicial systems where it has now place, it has no balance or logical reasoning; its too fanactical and extreme to ever be fair.

[truthsayer]

Greetings truthsayer!:

First & foremost this issue is a non-starter. Put yourself in the shoes of this womans family. You have made false assignations as to the quality of my character. Examine yourself!

I have and I do, I am analytical by nature as well as empathic.

It seems you did not read the link to the source of the story. Prosecuters have a wide lattitude, scope of charges to draw from. From misdemeanor
manslaughter to various homicide charges.

I clicked on the link in the original post which repeats what was posted. It still does not justify your motives for such heavy judgement. The full facts are not revealed.

Investigators said that Reimer was in the apartment when they arrived. He told them, "She didn't jump"

Admission up front doesn't display the typical characteristic of a murderer hoping to get away with it and get the life insurance. It show's a question of mind and motive at the time, yes. Again, we do not have all the evidence to hand, yet you passed judgement on him none the less, this is what I took issue with.

2nd degree murder is implicit as to criminal intent. I most certainly have put myself in this mans shoes, And I will never accept his solution. His motive was Financial, this is in the linked story. You should search-engine the criminals name, maybe find something interesting.

Your entire position is built on shifting sands. How will you protect the children? how will you champion the weak?

By the same methods everyone else is protected and the same reason and logic every other crime is researched and judgement passed. (whether I agree with it or not, but the death penalty I do not agree with)

As for protecting children this is as much down to the parents not putting their children at risk in the first place. The Mccann's have highlighted what happens, when parents chose selfishness and irresponsibility towards very young children in a foreign country; a child gets taken. Again, I looked into that case with open eyes, did my research and the crime here was partly with the parents. Had they not left their very young children unattended its more then unlikely that Maddy would never gone missing. So how much judgement do you spread around? Should the parents get the death penalty too for putting their child at risk of being taken? As I said before, where does the punishment end?

Might I add that everyone, of every age group is important, not just children. The difference with children is that they are dependant on an adult to guide and protect. So again, I say parents play their part.

There are some lads and lasses, you can 'Beam Sunshine' at them all day,but they will remain a danger to other members of society.

Your beginning to sound like a minority report, punish those that may commit a crime before they do, because by their very nature will commit a crime. Your passing heavy judgement indeed.

Its not to do with the sunshine of a spotless mind, alone.

There is also an issue of human rights here, of both the woman who died as well as the accused who may be innocent or maybe guilty. Again, innocent until proven guilty.

Its so easy to pass judgement when your on the other side of the fence looking in.

I for one pass no judgement either way I don't have the required evidence. If he took her life to gain money then that is pretty horrible, if he took her life at her bequest, then I can only given sympathy for being asked to do such a painful and difficult task.

You're over generalising the human race and different aspects of human individuals. Again, I say this with background knowledge and experience. You need to know more about the human mind before passing yet another of your judgements. Buttons can be pushed with the most 'sane' of minds, those that do have all the appearance of a happy functioning disposition.

I only advocate the Death Penalty for defilers and murderers of children. Whats wrong with that? I have been studying and employing empathy, long before you were even swimmin' around in your pappys sack. You can blow all the 'Sunshine' you want up this crumbs ass, but a 'road to Damascus' moment is farfetched.

I will end with this caveat, Monsieur Empathy. Pray, pray to whatever it is you pray to. That a sexual predator never harms a child who is dear to you.
How empathetic will you be then?

This woman was somebodys daughter, maybe a sister to someone. She was a fellow human, thrown, tossed, flung, hurled, airmailed over a FOURTH floor balcony rail. My empathy is properly measured and placed. Honour for the departed and a Chain Gang for the crumb at the Louisiana State Farm in Angola for a few decades. Colour me Humane & Enlightened.

My empathy is with those that loose their lives through one thing or another and with the family left behind, having lost many of my close family to diease; mostly Cancer and a brother who is currently very ill with a lump waiting a biopsy, so don't lecture me about empathy for the family, I am that family, I know just how it feels, thank you very much. Your so quick to judge and assess people you've never met aren't you??!

Now here I don't judge you as a person I don't know you, but I am in disagreement with your sensibilities over human life and how it should be punishment.

I am not religious, but I feel this quote sums it up pretty neatly against your ease of belief in the death penalty.

"Let he is without sin cast the first stone"

Therefore who has the right to judge and take another's life? No one!

I am the Flower Child in a long line of Berserkers.

Give it up truthsayer!!, you have chosen to champion a piece of shit that threw his wife off a 4th floor balcony for FINANCIAL reasons. Whats up with that? Read the linked story!

How dare you, I have chosen to champion innocent before guilty. Evidence before judgement. What have you chosen? Guilty until proven innocent.

If he murdered her then he is guilty of a crime, if he did not, and she asked him to end it, then he is only guilty of carry out his wife wishes. Either way, I believe in finding the truth before passing any sort of judgement and you are twisting everything I've said to your own perspecption.

I change my perspective with knowledge and experience and information. Always exploring and changing. Again, your judging; it seems to be your niche and your Achilles.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings truthsayer!:

Have no doubt truthsayer, your loss is my loss, my loss is your loss. Ultimately everybody looses due to the interconnectability. 'For want of a Nail'.

The sage who shared with us the philosophy of he who is without sin, may throw the first stone. Rabbi Yahshua(jesus) was informing the peoples that Father Yahwehs Laws were in effect, but unless you yourself were sinless, you could not take punitive action. Rabbi Yahshua also informed the peoples: Before you harm a child, or the weak and infirmed, Take Your Own Life!

Rabbi Yahshua(jesus) advocates suicide. To the mis-creants(oh! I am being judgemental again), who would harm the meekest members of our society, He pretty much informs the miscreants, that by taking their own life before commiting the crime, would spare them the justice Yahweh and Yahshua will administer, which I can imagine would be rigorous beyond human comprehension.

Now a mis-creant, proved guilty, conclusively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to have grievously harmed members of the above mentioned groups, I would personally take them to the swamp and feed them to the alligators and crocodiles. A very strident rehabilitation. They forfeited their right to exist as an oxygen breathing denizen of planet earth.

truthsayer, you have not acknowledged the 2nd degree murder charge, explicit criminal intent. I have worked with prosecutors(dwi issue), you can make reasonable queries of their office. 'If' he was a 'good guy'. who was emotionaly overwrought. He would have been appropriately charged with a
misdemeanor manslaughter charge.

I'll tell ya truthsayer, my own life hasn't 'been a walk in the parc on a sunny day'. But I always viewed 'Hardship' as an opportunity to strengthen the 'Inner Being'.

I am saddened you have lost friends and family, I too, have witnessed exactly what you have shared with us. I too have lost friends and family.

I am not just a realist, I am a Harsh Realist, I have witnessed and experienced a wide swing of the pendulum.

You have made a great issue of my original post, as I am too harshly judgemental, well, if anything I was restrained. You have chosen to Champion the 'wrong' horse in this race.

You, yourself, are ardently judgemental, that 'Jazz' about minority report is farfetched and indicates you watch too much T.V., and 'believe it'. You say I have been too harsh in my condemnation of a member of our society who 'went off the tracks'. I disagree, read my first post again, very restrained. Accurate observation. Is it that you, yourself have thought of these 'Dark Solutions'?. They may be Politically incorrect, but reasonable?

You have not posted your 'Justice' for this particular event. I opted for twenty-thirty years on a chaingang. What say you?

This is my last post on this matter> Much is known of this man, his motive was ignoble, his method, moreso, and than he lied to the investigators. I stand by my original post.

Addendum 1: Forced Logic, Deductive Reasoning And Circumspect Perspective. Tools of analysis. And always appropriate Empathy.

You Posit: The gravely sick woman requests of her loving husband, to end her life, by being cast off a fourth floor balcony. She has decided more discreet means of the Grand Transition, were unneccessary, and the investigators of her public Transition(yes, there is an investigation), would be informed by her loving husband that 'she jumped', and that should 'settle matters'. No harm, no foul. Mitigating Circumstances

The ensuing investigation has so far rendered Indictment for 2nd degree Murder with Criminal Intent. We know this. My harshness is in response to the cruel method that was employed. I 'think' it was obvious to most readers that the alledged perpetrator is guilty and would not be able to provide 'mitigating circumstances'.




Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[julieray]

Whatever the husband did or did not do - he was wrong to do it. Suffering is unbearable, I appreciate that, but it does not give him the right to take a life. What happened to "in sickness and in health", or should that have been "in sickness and in health until it becomes unbearable!".

However, his having to live with what he has done, must surely be punishment enough - it was his wife afterall and he surely must have loved her. Unfortunately consent cannot be a defence to murder or manslaughter and hence he will have to face prosecution.

It is a very sad state of affairs. If she wanted to end her life, I wonder why she couldn't just take some pills and go in her sleep?? We will never know, but I do not believe in an eye for an eye and certainly not in a case such as this. The world is in desperate need of love and healing, not outrage and revenge.

[truthsayer]

Peace & Greetings truthsayer!:

Have no doubt truthsayer, your loss is my loss, my loss is your loss. Ultimately everybody looses due to the interconnectability. 'For want of a Nail'.

The sage who shared with us the philosophy of he who is without sin, may throw the first stone. Rabbi Yahshua(jesus) was informing the peoples that Father Yahwehs Laws were in effect, but unless you yourself were sinless, you could not take punitive action. Rabbi Yahshua also informed the peoples: Before you harm a child, or the weak and infirmed, Take Your Own Life!

Rabbi Yahshua(jesus) advocates suicide.

Seriously, what? This contradicts core Christian (and many other) beliefs and what they state the bible says and means. Suicide is considered a sin worthy of damnation! Even still, you clearly state 'suicide' not anything that describes the death penalty as punishment.

This is the very reason why religion is flawed, everything is interpreted to suit an agenda not the truth. Manipulation of facts (or in this case a very simple saying).

...To the mis-creants(oh! I am being judgemental again), who would harm the meekest members of our society, He pretty much informs the miscreants, that by taking their own life before committing the crime, would spare them the justice Yahweh and Yahshua will administer, which I can imagine would be rigorous beyond human comprehension.

Now a mis-creant, proved guilty, conclusively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to have grievously harmed members of the above mentioned groups, I would personally take them to the swamp and feed them to the alligators and crocodiles. A very strident rehabilitation. They forfeited their right to exist as an oxygen breathing denizen of planet earth.This is religion deciding the fate of a human, and playing "god" in the life and death of our fellow humans. Dictator of life.

The saying is simple and is not open to the interpretation you state here (and I am not religious at all)

Are you perfect? No. Then do you have the right to pass judgement on another? No. Its that simple. No interpretation needed, pretty plain and simple.

truthsayer, you have not acknowledged the 2nd degree murder charge, explicit criminal intent. I have worked with prosecutors(dwi issue), you can make reasonable queries of their office. 'If' he was a 'good guy'. who was emotionaly overwrought. He would have been appropriately charged with a
misdemeanor manslaughter charge.If he did indeed, murder his wife then a murder charge is of course the approriate course of action. That was never my 'issue'. Judgement passed, guilty before innocent was my issue.

As far as 1st degree murder/death penalty goes, in my mind, is never an appropriate course of action in any case, and is not employed in law here in the UK. This I believe was one of my original points raised over your post of how he 'should' be treated for his 'crime'.

Religion should play NO part in law and order. One of my points also, which in America, it seems plays a very large role even down to Government policy and who gets elected* (Abortion being only one example).

(*although we know that's fixed anyway)

If we allowed religion to dictate law, homosexuals would be criminalised along with murderers and placed on death row for their "sin", and that smacks of wrong to me. That de-humanises.

"In most places that practice capital punishment today, the death penalty is reserved as punishment for premeditated murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder), espionage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage), treason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason), or as part of military justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_justice)."
Do I need to point out why capital punishment is wrong? (see 'bold' for hints)

I'll tell ya truthsayer, my own life hasn't 'been a walk in the parc on a sunny day'. But I always viewed 'Hardship' as an opportunity to strengthen the 'Inner Being'.Me neither and I try to see everything as a challenge and if I had a time machine really wouldn't change anything personally, otherwise I wouldn't have reached this point, although it doesn't stop life from being hard.

I am saddened you have lost friends and family, I too, have witnessed exactly what you have shared with us. I too have lost friends and family.

I am not just a realist, I am a Harsh Realist, I have witnessed and experienced a wide swing of the pendulum.

You have made a great issue of my original post, as I am too harshly judgemental, well, if anything I was restrained. You have chosen to Champion the 'wrong' horse in this race.Life has hardened you, as it does us all to a degree, but my loss has made me care even more about the human being and the individual as a whole.
If that is my crime and my 'Champion' then throw away the key now, as that view and care for each individual, that can not been boxed, labelled, stamped, pigeonholed, filed, generalised, is just that an individual not a minority report in waiting. I have been treated pretty poorly by the human race as a whole, yet still make every effort not to slip in a bad habit of generalising and de-humanising them, but trying to understand them and where their coming from, from their perspective and set of life experiences. Although I don't claim to be perfect, far from it, I am flawed like the rest.

You, yourself, are ardently judgemental, that 'Jazz' about minority report is farfetched and indicates you watch too much T.V., and 'believe it'. You say I have been too harsh in my condemnation of a member of our society who 'went off the tracks'. I disagree, read my first post again, very restrained. Accurate observation. Is it that you, yourself have thought of these 'Dark Solutions'?. They may be Politically incorrect, but reasonable?I don't deny it, we are all judgemental of varying degrees, I am human like the rest and far from perfect, but I am repeating here and have already stated my 'case' and you are not listening.

As for the whether I am 'PC' or not, being 'PC' is a spin used by our Governements to 'correct' the way we behave socially (there are numerous other posts here that deal with that topic) and since that has its own agenda is really not something I concern myself with conforming to either way it is not in my thinking when I research a subject.

As I have already stated. I explore and change. Research and discover, it's not something I would label 'Dark', I don't seek to be politcally incorrect more I seek truth, fact from fiction, (why else would I be on this forum?) but again, you seem to have great ease with passing judgement over all thats said and done so I guess I am flogging a dead horse in over stating my character and case.

Additionally, The Minority Report is by author Philip K. Dick (was first published in 1956). I am an avid reader of both fiction and non-fiction.

Again, you make assumptions and judgement of my character based on one line of text. Your reasoning and judgement appears flawed in its heavy handiness, and if you are being restrained that simply beggars belief of how you treat your fellow 'man' in real life away from these forums.

I don't want to argue with you, I hope you'll sit back and remember everyone is human, they have a history, a life history, and I state again for the record, I do not condone taking another human life, but in that same sense I do not believe in taking life as a form of punishment. We do not have that right.

You have not posted your 'Justice' for this particular event. I opted for twenty-thirty years on a chaingang. What say you?Proper investigation of fact finding and a psychoanalytic assessment where deemed necessary. Then pass a fair judgement based on that evidence.

Innocent before proven guilty. That was my point to you when you were passing judgement from the first post of evidence alone.

This is my last post on this matterDitto!

I see that taking a life, any life brings out certain instincts in all of us towards those that have committed the 'crime', but I also feel we need to step back from those, sometimes rash emotions, and assess each case as an individual not another generalised statistic.

Much is known of this man, his motive was ignoble, his method, moreso, and than he lied to the investigators. I stand by my original post.Fair enough, but does the punishment always fit the crime? Does "eye for an eye" really belong in a court of law? I am asking you questions here as much as I am passing on an my opnion (which is always subject to change with new information, I repeat; I explore and change)

I am a thinker and I like to encourage others to do the same; think before you judge, research and reason on par with instinct and emotion. Some sort of balance where humanly possible.

Addendum 1: Forced Logic, Deductive Reasoning And Circumspect Perspective. Tools of analysis. And always appropriate Empathy.See previous last para ^

You Posit: The gravely sick woman requests of her loving husband, to end her life, by being cast off a fourth floor balcony. She has decided more discreet means of the Grand Transition, were unnecessary, and the investigators of her public Transition(yes, there is an investigation), would be informed by her loving husband that 'she jumped', and that should 'settle matters'. No harm, no foul. Mitigating Circumstances

The ensuing investigation has so far rendered Indictment for 2nd degree Murder with Criminal Intent. We know this. My harshness is in response to the cruel method that was employed. I 'think' it was obvious to most readers that the alledged perpetrator is guilty and would not be able to provide 'mitigating circumstances'.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

It is cruel indeed to dispose of a life in such a manner (even by request, its not a way I would want to go), I feel it important that you know I recognise this since you pass such heavy judgement on me just from my posts.

Nonetheless, I can not and will not agree with the death penalty that's one area I am not so open minded on. You can't teach the world its wrong to murder or its a 'sin' then turn around and murder someone as punishment, it contravenes "deductive reasoning" and logic. Two wrongs don't equal a right; it simply equals two wrongs. No interpretation required.

On a very final note, I don't judge you nor am I completely in disagreement with you (despite the possible appearance of such). Its a heated debate and subject yes, but I have read through each and everyone of your posts and taken on board what you've said.

The world is in desperate need of love and healing, not outrage and revenge.

Exactly, you said it all right there!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

julieray & truthsayer:

First and foremost I never advocated the death penalty for the piece of shit that threw his sick wife off a fourthfloor balcony.

I'll posit: that anyone who wasn't outraged and disgusted by this story, concerning an obviously guilty mis-creant, is 'Dead to the World'.

Perhaps you are edorsees of the 'There is no good or bad, there just is. Or, there is no good or bad, it is all good.

truthsayer, julieray: There is a beautiful child in your immediate family, you nurture her and protect this child to the best of your abilities, but a monster decieves and penetrates your defences and takes this child.

This monster than defiles this child in hideous ways and when done, buries her alive.

An investigation reveals the identity of the monster, conclusive evidence is amassed, proving beyond any doubt the monster committed these acts. The monster even gloatingly admits it and laughs.

My question to the two of you: What are your emotions? What is your 'justice'?

2: The United States of America and Great Britain are using and deploying depleted and non-depleted uranium munitions, throughout wide swaths of the Earth. This weapon is considered a 'force multiplier' as it continues to cause harm after the combatants have left the field.

Evidence of babies being poisoned in their mothers womb,due to radiation, resulting in horrific consequences, diminishing the quality of their lives before they are born.

My question to you: what are your emotions. What is your 'justice'?

In this world at this time I posit: At this time, on this planet, True joy and bliss are unatainable unless you are devoid of empathy. Do these children and their parents have 'self-fulfilling prophecies':

You can see the 'good' in these situations?

truthsayer, I advocate the death penalty only for the defilers and murderers of children, no one else. You didn't ever seem to 'grasp' that point. So much so, I believe you have just been 'takin' the pee' on ol' snoops. Fess up

Sometimes, truthsayer, guilt or innocence is obvious from the beginning. Better read my first post again truthsayer. Never advocated death for him, I was honestly outraged and disgusted. Ample evidence as to motive and method.

Perhaps you are envious I am better equipped to analyse a complex subject with greater facility than you. The man, with evidence already presented to the reader, is obviously guilty of murder most foul. You did not grasp this. The first post was based on my critical assesment. No rush to judgement.

yes, at times, I am neccessarily 'Hard', I am also Soft' as a bunny rabbit. Demeanor is determined by events. My 'hard' side is appropriately restrained and I am slow to anger, very slow.

I would like the both of you to share with me, both: emotions and penalties(justice) for the above posited scenarios: Monster defiling and murdering a child PERSONALY close and dear to you, and your emotions concerning the defilement of babies in their mothers wombs.

In 'my world' the pendulum swings both ways.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[julieray]

Whilst you have made valid points in a scenario i shudder will never be experienced to anyone, but I believe that whatever it is we experience in life has already been agreed in the spirit world - therefore, should i be murdered tomorrow, that is something I have previously agreed with the murderer beforehand, hence when I go back home, I shall have a quick review and assess what it is I next have to do in order to progress.

I believe that at some point in time, we have all murdered, but because it is now quite incomprehensible to us in this life, that is because we have learnt from those lessons and will therefore never go back there. We are all at varying levels of progress and to anyone committing murder, are nothing but poor and damaged souls that need help and healing and most importantly love, because if it is happening in our reality then we have allowed that to happen.

May sound a bit dippy, may sound a bit far fetched, but anger and revenge will never get us off up to the next vibrational level, so unconditional love is seriously the only way forward to true enlightenment.

Unconditional love and light to you my friend
xxxxx:)

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings!, julieray:

Well said. You have presented your position with clarity and succinctnesss.
Though I do not agree with that school of thought, I am familiar with it, and respect and honour your right to frame your life and perspective according to your beliefs.

This right ends before doing harm to others.

The school of thought I embrace is mechanical and mathematical. Actions have consequences in the here and now.

Though there is always common ground, there is a vast chasm between our beliefs. I honestly honoured the emotions I felt, based upon information presented. truthsayer has failed to realise his oveerdrawn, melodramatic judgement of Snoopsnuffleopagus, is judgement of himself. It is he, himself who posseses the quality he is attempting to assign to Snoopsnuffleopagus.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopaguss

[truthsayer]

Peace & Greetings!, julieray:

Well said. You have presented your position with clarity and succinctnesss.
Though I do not agree with that school of thought, I am familiar with it, and respect and honour your right to frame your life and perspective according to your beliefs.

This right ends before doing harm to others.

The school of thought I embrace is mechanical and mathematical. Actions have consequences in the here and now.

Though there is always common ground, there is a vast chasm between our beliefs. I honestly honoured the emotions I felt, based upon information presented. truthsayer has failed to realise his oveerdrawn, melodramatic judgement of Snoopsnuffleopagus, is judgement of himself. It is he, himself who posseses the quality he is attempting to assign to Snoopsnuffleopagus.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopaguss

Arrghh enough already. I judge you not, but make assessments from your posts of what you convey and I do not agree, and never shall we agree on the point over the death penalty. Can I not make that any clearer?

Taking a life any life, is wrong. I don't agree with war, neither shall I agree with capital punishment in both cases innocent people have been killed and that will always make it unacceptable, because ALL life is valuable. Have I made myself clear enough for you now?!

Many US states have put a moratorium on executions, citing faulty court trials and verdicts and persistent problems in the lethal injection method. But Texas continues to push ahead with almost weekly executions.

Since the 1976 reinstatement, Texas has accounted for more than one-third of the total 1,091 executions carried out country-wide. This year, with other states now reticent, it will account for nearly two-thirds.

If your so up for the death penalty then maybe you should sign your self up for duty rather then just talk about it and see with what ease your in agreement with it, as you watch the life ebb away...

Have you ever seen someone in front of you die? I have and you never forget that experience. Again, I have had a certain set of life experiences that give me my views and value on ALL life and how that life is treated. I've seen people do things so out of character who've become so ill of mind through trauma you wouldn't recognise them even if you'd know them your whole life. I try to understand all aspects of humanity including the mind. There's always more to the story then what the papers/online news give us which we know from using this forum is greatly manipulated.

You even make assumptions about my gender which says it a lot in itself. You assume I am a man because of my view point? I find that funny. You've even come so far as to judge a gender in your post. Overdrawn or hitting at more truth? I am female btw, not that it has anything to do with this topic or my view.

We clearly have very different life experiences and different views on how to treat our fellow human beings, even down to law and order.

To kill another human being is sick, I emphasis the word sick here. Sick need healing and that healing may come from being put in prison to spend the rest of ones life contemplating such an act against another human being. Each case is unique. That was and is my point (which have made more then once) and that is what I keep repeating and you keep side stepping. You are not listening.

Your view is too rigid on this subject unwilling to bend to different conditions. Unable to adapt to new possibilities or ideas.

I could go on, but even I am tired of reading my own words and am not going to continue on where it is on deaf ears. Brick wall springs to mind.

Over an out.

Edit to add: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[julieray]

Peace & Greetings!, julieray:

Well said. You have presented your position with clarity and succinctnesss.
Though I do not agree with that school of thought, I am familiar with it, and respect and honour your right to frame your life and perspective according to your beliefs.

This right ends before doing harm to others.

The school of thought I embrace is mechanical and mathematical. Actions have consequences in the here and now.

Though there is always common ground, there is a vast chasm between our beliefs. I honestly honoured the emotions I felt, based upon information presented. truthsayer has failed to realise his oveerdrawn, melodramatic judgement of Snoopsnuffleopagus, is judgement of himself. It is he, himself who posseses the quality he is attempting to assign to Snoopsnuffleopagus.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopaguss

Whilst I do respect your views, I too cannot agree with them, but each to their own.

However it would not be spiritual of me to just walk away from this situation as I know that you are a very good person. If you were to realise that we are spiritual beings bound by the physical world, then you would realise that the progression of your soul is the fundamentally most important thing in your life. Therefore, by becoming fixed with the physical aspect of life, you are forgetting that it is the progress of your soul that really matters. Therefore, if you think that, even in some cases an eye for an eye is justice, then you are being no better than that poor soul, who obviously did not know better!!

If you believe in the oneness of the God of First Source and that everything has come from this, then equally everything must return back. That means all those evil people in the world must also return to God and as God is unconditional love, then don't you think that we have a duty to help our fellow souls to heal and be shown love so that they too can return to God sooner rather than later.

Another perspective is looking at the situation from this angle. If you believe that Reptiles rule this world and that they feed off the negative vibrations of man, that we are being hounded by untold chemicals, poisons, mass hypnosis, terror, war, pain, suffering etc. etc. in order to keep our vibrations low, because that way Reptilians grow and prosper. By adding to all this negativity is simply feeding the reptilians. However, if you eminate love, healing and compassion and understand that these individuals are simply just sick, then they will go away, disappear, because they cannot survive on our vibrational level. Simply love them away, don't feed them with anger!

I have had to have this explained to me and I have to say it makes perfect sense and when you realise this, life does become better even though there are still terrible things going on, because if we all send out love, everyone will be healed. By sending out unconditional love is a win win situation.

You don't have to accept my view, but it was explained to me by someone I dearly respect who is far more of a spiritual healer than I can ever hope to be. We really can take control of our own lives if we choose to do so!!
Unconditional love and healing to you.
Julie
xxx

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings!, julieray:

Thank you for your kind sentiment and further expounding your position. I understand this very well. You are a good soul who is proactive in her beliefs, thus being part of the solution.

Know this, I bear hatred to no-one, I do not let anger dwell in my heart. Indeed, Rabbi Yahshua taught us to love our enemies, as that would be as hot coals upon their head.

What truthsayer does not realise about me, is I am an empath, a very deep empath. On the positive side I express this as a classical guitarist, watercolorist, gardener, feeder of birds and squirrels, and my favorite, chipmunks. I am employed in a Physical Rehabilitation Hospital.

Harm a child or defensless person, and my inner beast becomes engaged. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan has cast a pall over my soul. My joy is no longer as robust as it once was, for as long as innocents are exploited and abused, I care, I care very deeply. And I am willing to champion them. This I have done.

There are too many predators, preying on the young and defenseless, that I felt a strident punishment would serve as a strident warning to those contemplating this evil path. Nothing personal.

Julieray: I thank you again for your heartfelt and compassionate post. You are wise and high-minded. You are a helper.

We will dis-agree over the ultimate end of these predators, but in the End, Love shall surely prevail. Until then,

My Very Kindest Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[truthsayer]

Peace & Greetings!, julieray:

Thank you for your kind sentiment and further expounding your position. I understand this very well. You are a good soul who is proactive in her beliefs, thus being part of the solution.

Know this, I bear hatred to no-one, I do not let anger dwell in my heart. Indeed, Rabbi Yahshua taught us to love our enemies, as that would be as hot coals upon their head.

What truthsayer does not realise about me, is I am an empath, a very deep empath. On the positive side I express this as a classical guitarist, watercolorist, gardener, feeder of birds and squirrels, and my favorite, chipmunks. I am employed in a Physical Rehabilitation Hospital.

Harm a child or defensless person, and my inner beast becomes engaged. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan has cast a pall over my soul. My joy is no longer as robust as it once was, for as long as innocents are exploited and abused, I care, I care very deeply. And I am willing to champion them. This I have done.

There are too many predators, preying on the young and defenseless, that I felt a strident punishment would serve as a strident warning to those contemplating this evil path. Nothing personal.

Julieray: I thank you again for your heartfelt and compassionate post. You are wise and high-minded. You are a helper.

We will dis-agree over the ultimate end of these predators, but in the End, Love shall surely prevail. Until then,

My Very Kindest Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

I have stated, time and time again, I do not judge you personally, I don't have that right. I made assessments from your posts and that is the most I can do.

It was you that was and still is making judgement about my character and even assumptions.

The war In Iraq (and war general) has effected many at the 'soul' level and I am most certainly one such individual. Again, I am not going to justify my character to you because you deem your self worthy of judging me (or anyone else for that matter).

As for children, you again are making assumptions I don't have regard for their wellbeing (when the opposite is true) without proper facts of my character. Try reading some of my other posts in another thread before making yet more assumptions and judgements over mine or anyone else's character. This is where you seem to trip up.

You make far too many assumptions and base your judgements on those assumptions.

I left you a link to Sam Harris, who is a great speaker who deals with religion, but as much about the human mind and reasoning in general.

This is really my last post on this subject as its clear am saying one thing and you are reading another, and simply not listening or digesting the truth of my words. The mind believes what it wants to believe.

The world is not clear cut; it is not as black and white as you paint it.

Open your eyes

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings 'truth'sayer!:

Methinks your assumption, of me assuming, is an assumption in error.

4th Law of Toltec Shamanism:Never Make Assumptions. Rather, your post is an artful dodge of the posed queries. You never answered the questions as to emotional response and rendered justice, utilising provided scenarios. scenario 1. scenario 2.

Your first reference to snoopsnuffleopagus was an erroneous judgement, likewise your most recent.

Are you doing this for the lulz?

Colour me gone!! Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus