Religion is a deception

[tjohn]

The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become a religion - which although purporting to unite, actually divide people and cause much trouble for the world. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity.

A very young child can have a concept of God without the doctrines and rules of a religion. It is in fact the doctrines and rules that make a religion.

So what does religion tell us? Amongst many other things, religion tells us that we were 'born in sin' and/or that we are naturally inclined towards doing evil; that's what the doctrines tell us from the main Holy books. However, as can be seen by history, religious people have created untold hate and violence towards humanity (and even animals). Religion makes people self-righteous bigots and religion gives the impression that they are chosen by God and therefore they think they are 'better' than people of other religions, or non.

Religion says that the devil tempts us to do wrong, when in actual fact it is religion that has successfully caused people to do much wrong and not have compassion for other people! Ah, but, religious people are telling us that their 'perfect' god created us all! Blind fools is what religious people are and I don't hesitate to tell you that your god is not the God of all.


So I dream of the day when the 'Holy' books are put in a glass case in a museum protected by Lazers and all other 'Holy' books have been burned as relics of the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLwwww.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw)
(John Lennon was onto something, hence he was murdered)


On the glass case in a museum it is written:

These are the books that people lived for and have been killed for


Underneath those words, would be a summery of all the wars and dreadful atrocities committed and 'justified' in the name of religion.

Please people, give it up.

There are two sides to the universe, that which joins and creates and that which divides and destroys... Religion divides - so which do you chose?

[manxboz]

But what of the good things that has come from Religion?

[miracles]

The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become a religion - which although purporting to unite, actually divide people and cause much trouble for the world. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity.

A very young child can have a concept of God without the doctrines and rules of a religion. It is in fact the doctrines and rules that make a religion.

So what does religion tell us? Amongst many other things, religion tells us that we were 'born in sin' and/or that we are naturally inclined towards doing evil; that's what the doctrines tell us from the main Holy books. However, as can be seen by history, religious people have created untold hate and violence towards humanity (and even animals). Religion makes people self-righteous bigots and religion gives the impression that they are chosen by God and therefore they are 'better' than people of other religions, or non.

Religion says that the devil tempts us to do wrong, when in actual fact it is religion that has successfully caused people to do much wrong and not have compassion for other people!

Ah, but, religious people are telling us that your 'perfect' god created us all! Blind fools is what religious people are and I don't hesitate to tell you that your god is not the God of all.


So I dream of the day when the Holy books are put in a glass case in a museum protected by Lazers and all other 'Holy' books have been burned as relics of the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLwwww.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw)
(John Lennon was onto something, hence he was murdered)


On the glass case in a museum it is written:

These are the books that people lived and have been killed for


Underneath those words, would be a summery of all the wars and dreadful atrocities committed and 'justified' in the name of religion.

Please people, give it up.

There are two sides to the universe, that which joins and creates and that which divides and destroys... Religion divides so which do you chose?

Well one has to imagine theres no heaven or hell, yes its easy if you try, but that don't get rid of it. Imagine thers no wars etc. Imagination is imagination, not realisation.

Imagine your 20 pounds lighter
No wrinkles too, I,magine your not balding
Its easy if you try
But when you look in the mirror
your going to cry

Bhoo hooo ohhoooooooo

Imagine all the sheeple beleiving in this crap.....
And I laugh all the way to the bank.

The end.

[tjohn]

But what of the good things that has come from Religion?But what of the good things we could have without religion that causes self-righteousness and hate towards people on this planet?

We don't need it - we were not born with a religion but it is told to us.

[tjohn]

Well one has to imagine theres no heaven or hell, yes its easy if you try, but that don't get rid of it. Imagine thers no wars etc. Imagination is imagination, not realisation.

Imagine your 20 pounds lighter
No wrinkles too, I,magine your not balding
Its easy if you try
But when you look in the mirror
your going to cry

Bhoo hooo ohhoooooooo

Imagine all the sheeple beleiving in this crap.....
And I laugh all the way to the bank.

The end.I see you are still plugging your Christian theology! If you want to try another thread to do that, don't be too surprised if you meet some challenges.

May the Sun shine on you and give you some light... in the hope that your heart is warmed towards us all, not just your pious religion that suggests that Christianity is all there is.

[armoured_amazon]

A very young child can have a concept of God without the doctrines and rules of a religion. It is in fact the doctrines and rules that make a religion.

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

:o

[suicidal_martyr]

I wonder what religion would be if it wasn't fear based. Take away concept of hell and end times. What would it be I wonder?

[manxboz]

I wonder what religion would be if it wasn't fear based. Take away concept of hell and end times. What would it be I wonder?

There are Religions that don't have Hell or anything like that in it. They still thrive, man needs a belief even if its a beleif that there isn't a God.

[miracles]

I see you are still plugging your Christian theology! If you want to try another thread to do that, don't be too surprised if you meet some challenges.

May the Sun shine on you and give you some light... in the hope that your heart is warmed towards us all, not just your pious religion that suggests that Christianity is all there is.

This thread will do fine thanks, its on topic. Cheers.

[merlincove]

...... but only if you let it be a deception

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Y-2m-HQRM

When i find myself in times of trouble, Mother mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom

it is simply mans interpretation of that wisdom that creates deceptions.

Religion has the power to unite mankind, if only man would let it.

And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree - there will be an answer :D

let it be / imagine, no pun intended

[miracles]

...... but only if you let it be a deception

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Y-2m-HQRM

When i find myself in times of trouble, Mother mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom

it is simply mans interpretation of that wisdom that creates deceptions.

Religion has the power to unite mankind, if only man would let it.

And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree - there will be an answer :D

let it be / imagine, no pun intended

Dude the beatles are satanic, what are you guys on with these songs? THATS NWO DECEPTION IN SONG. Mother Mary is an annalogy of The Vigin Mary, mary worship which is satanic. Demons coming in dreams, sheesh. Wake up!!!!

Thank you I'll be here all week.

One world religion under satan, let it be my arse. The thing is it will be, but I'll be out of here by then thank Christ.

[merlincove]

Dude the beatles are satanic, what are you guys on with these songs? THATS NWO DECEPTION IN SONG. Mother Mary is an annalogy of The Vigin Mary, mary worship which is satanic. Demons coming in dreams, sheesh. Wake up!!!!

Thank you I'll be here all week.

One world religion under satan, let it be my arse. The thing is it will be, but I'll be out of here by then thank Christ.

Man if you'd ever met the energy of mother mary you would not even consider a single word of what you have said as truth.

i am glad that you percieve me as asleep, it is such a heathy show of respect and your own self awareness to pour out such a judgemetal statement as 'wake up'

You take up the stanse of appraising my state of awareness and yet stand on the solid ground of affording yourself as the judge of me, and yet you know me not.

Your awareness states that you know better than i?

And, of course you put forth such enlightened points of view.

Thank you indeed.

i am glad that i do not see the serpent in such menial things as a beautiful song.

i must be so unenlightened because i like a (very simple) song that you say is written by satanists for nwo agenda.

But i don't think i'll be bowing to your enlightened personality just yet, thank you all the same.

Nice to see also, that you thank Christ and yet see his mother as being an annalogy of satanic worship, you feeling a little mixed up miracles? :rolleyes:

;)

[whdevo]

Hi,

"So I dream of the day when the 'Holy' books are put in a glass case in a museum protected by Lazers and all other 'Holy' books have been burned as relics of the past.", you say ...

I hope that you are being facetious ...

"Withdrawal" of any information, surely is never beneficial (if it is "good" information, we could have learned from it; and, if it is "bad" information, we could learn not to repeat it ... but, remember, all "information" will be "bad" for some, and "good" for others -so who is to decide?-).

Anyway, it isn't necessary to do as you suggest: most "followers" of any religion have never bothered to open the "Holy Book" and, in their "conditioned laziness", they are happy to accept the second or third hand information/interpertatons of their so-called "leaders", and it is here that religion is corrupted.

I more than "believe" in God, although I am not "a Christian", "a Muslim", "a Hindu", etc., etc., but I have great respect for the Bible, the Q'ran, the Bahagavad Gita, etc., etc..

However, the difference between myself and most people who call themselves "religious" is that, when I have a question about religion, I do not rely on interpretators of these books, but, rather, go to the texts myself for first guidance, and, when I do seek further clarification, I never accept: "("Ah, but, although it says that, that is not what it means ... it actually means this ...").

I believe that it is the fact that most "followers" of religions are not familiar with their own "books of rules", which allows this extreme manipulation.

If we look at most of the "churches" and then look into their "books of rules" we will see two, at best "contradictory", and, at worst, "directly opposed" entities.

Religion, in my humble opinion, is not a bad thing.

However, due to the success of the usuprers, who utilise the ignorance of religions' "adherents", most religions have been "interpreted" (corrupted) almost out of recognition, when compared with their "Holy Books", and this is instilled/conditioned "non-chalance" is the "bad thing".

At least, so I think ...

[miracles]

Man if you'd ever met the energy of mother mary you would not even consider a single word of what you have said as truth.

i am glad that you percieve me as asleep, it is such a heathy show of respect and your own self awareness to pour out such a judgemetal statement as 'wake up'

You take up the stanse of appraising my state of awareness and yet stand on the solid ground of affording yourself as the judge of me, and yet you know me not.

Your awareness states that you know better than i?

And, of course you put forth such enlightened points of view.

Thank you indeed.

i am glad that i do not see the serpent in such menial things as a beautiful song.

i must be so unenlightened because i like a (very simple) song that you say is written by satanists for nwo agenda.

But i don't think i'll be bowing to your enlightened personality just yet, thank you all the same.

Nice to see also, that you thank Christ and yet see his mother as being an annalogy of satanic worship, you feeling a little mixed up miracles? :rolleyes:

;)

I dont mean to offend bro, honestly I dont, Sorry to be abrasive. But seriously? Beatles music as evidence for a religious belief or mantra to aspire too?. Please. I thought you guys actually where awake to the music industry. Aint no body bigger than the beatles, they started it all. Yes it is a very pleasant song musically, thats the power of it. Where you aware that satan is a musical instrument. His whole body has a built in orchestra. It use to be used to produce beautiful sound in worship of God, he now uses this to be worshipped himself. "Mother Mary" coming to Paul, is him. Subtle but very sinister, and very true. Im not asking you to bow down to me, bow down to the reality. Principles and truth are important, not personalities, particularly familar spirit personalites.

Ezekiel 28:13b ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Isaiah14:11-12 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols [stringed instruments]: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

[talkshowsonmute]

it might be a deception for u but not for others.. specially for hardcore religious people. can't blame them, we have our own belief systems.

[tjohn]

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

:oYes there are some wise sayings in the Bible, I do not deny that at all. There are however some unwise sayings in the book(s) so that people think that they are 'better' than other people because of their religion.

Religion is learned and without the book(s) and religious teachers we would all be as innocent as young children; no need for the carrot of Heaven nor any stick of Hell, we can just be what we are without religion and anyone who has eyes to see, can see that religion has caused untold suffering to the world.

Therefore religion is a deceptive jinn, a demon, or as the Bible puts it, "an angel of light" which does not in reality represent the light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

[miracles]

Yes there are some wise sayings in the Bible, I do not deny that at all. There are however some unwise sayings in the book(s) so that people think that they are 'better' than other people because of their religion.

Religion is learned and without the book(s) and religious teachers we would all be as innocent as young children; no need for the carrot of Heaven nor any stick of Hell, we can just be what we are without religion and anyone who has eyes to see, can see that religion has caused untold suffering to the world.

Therefore religion is a deceptive jinn, a demon, or as the Bible puts it, "an angel of light" which does not in reality represent the light. 2 Corinthians 11:14


Your right many do think they are better because of their religion, but this is not the religion the bible teaches. No one can boast being a saved person, however one can be secure and confident, knowing they have etrenal life, in the face of all detractors and mockers. And unashamed.

Eph 2:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#comm/8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifEph 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eph&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#comm/9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[agneau]

Your right many do think they are better because of their religion, but this is not the religion the bible teaches.

Really? The bible is just one huge statement that "we are the best and all others must die and be damned". Consider:

The Bible says in Exodus 10, verse 27, "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Then in verse 29; we read "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

ie the followers of god are better than the Egyptians.

In the Bible (Deut. 28, verse 16) God is made to say: "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth."

ie slaughter defenseless, defeated people, "to save alive nothing that breatheth." because we are better than they.

In the Bible (Josh. 10, verse 12-13) "Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and said in the sight of Israel, sun, stand thou still upon Gideon; and thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon. (13) and the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies."

Again...

In the Bible (1 Samuel 6, verse 19) "And He smote the men of Bethsemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with great slaughter."

ie If another people look at our (superior) works then they shall be destroyed.

Jesus is said to have said: (Luke 14:26) "If any man come to me and hate not his father, his mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

ie we are better even than your own family – confirmed by:

Jesus is said to have said: (Matthew 10:34-37) "Think not that I am come to send peace to earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in- law against her mother-in-law. (36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. (37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Jesus is said to have said: (Luke 12:5) "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; I say unto you, fear him."

Christianity is founded upon fear; the fear of: "if your not one of us, you are eternally damned." ie we are better than you.

Unlike the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament was not happy when his victims lay dead and broken before him. The Son of God has not only carried on the family tradition, but has exceeded the wildest expectations of the father.

If you are deluded enough to believe the Bible, you must believe the God of the New Testament pursues the dead into death. This God, we are told, has found a way to torture even those who have paid "the final penalty." And this is only reserved for the ‘lesser’ unbelievers. And you say that the bible does not teach that gods acolytes are better, more blessed, than others?

[miracles]

Really? The bible is just one huge statement that "we are the best and all others must die and be damned". Consider:



The Bible says in Exodus 10, verse 27, "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Then in verse 29; we read "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle


Yes, after they had been given plenty of opportunities to let the people go, and ignoring many other plagues, and then he drowned many soldiers in the waters of the red sea. Dont mess with God after He has given up giving you heaps of chances. Also this was after keeping the Israelites as slaves for 400 hundred years of slavery, brutal slavery. Who was better than other people then? There is a price to pay for this sort of thing, Phaorah paid the price, and its his fault all those children had to die. Dont play with God, He is God,

ie the followers of god are better than the Egyptians.

IE, no God is better than the Egyptians. Dont play with God


In the Bible (Deut. 28, verse 16) God is made to say: "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth."

ie slaughter defenseless, defeated people, "to save alive nothing that breatheth." because we are better than they.


What do you know about those cities? And why God did this? - I see you have omitted this part. Why?



In the Bible (Josh. 10, verse 12-13) "Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and said in the sight of Israel, sun, stand thou still upon Gideon; and thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon. (13) and the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies."


There is secular scientific fact that the earth did stand still too. What do you know about the Amorites and why God did this? You have left that part out, why?



In the Bible (1 Samuel 6, verse 19) "And He smote the men of Bethsemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with great slaughter."

ie If another people look at our (superior) works then they shall be destroyed
.

No they looked into the Ark of God, not into the ARk of people. Dont play with God.


Jesus is said to have said: (Luke 14:26) "If any man come to me and hate not his father, his mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

ie we are better even than your own family – confirmed by:


Dont put your family before God, it is God who gave you your family and your life not the other way around. dont play with God. This is parable about priorites. If my wife told me to renounce my faith in Christ or she would leave me, I would sadly, let her leave.


Jesus is said to have said: (Matthew 10:34-37) "Think not that I am come to send peace to earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in- law against her mother-in-law. (36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. (37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."


And that is what he has done, you and I are at variance with one another over truth, and I would die for that. I may have to one day, when some on elike you comes along to get rid of Christians. My mother and father and brother and family mocked my Christian faith and it put a huge strain on our relationship. So this scripture is true. This stuff is real mate, when some one is born again, satan hates it. All hell breaks loose.


Jesus is said to have said: (Luke 12:5) "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; I say unto you, fear him."



Correct whats your issue with that? You can see God doesnt muck about with unrepentant sinful men who reject His grace and mercy and who spit in His face and mock His Holy Word with scorn and evil bile. He is God. Dont play around with God.



Christianity is founded upon fear; the fear of: "if your not one of us, you are eternally damned." ie we are better than you.



All wisdom starts with the FEAR of the Lord, obviously it is wise to fear Him, he has the power to cast your soul into hell forever. So receive Christ. I fear God, anyone who doesn't, doesn't undertsand who God is. Don't play around with God. Do yo play around with the law and the police. God is the law of the universe man. You had better fear Him


Unlike the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament was not happy when his victims lay dead and broken before him. The Son of God has not only carried on the family tradition, but has exceeded the wildest expectations of the father.


Yes Christ fullfilled the perfect law of God perfectly. Which is why He can save me and has saved, me and I thank God for Christ. I can not boast that he saved a wretch like me. And he will save a bitter twisted wretch like you, who spits in his face and his word and in the face of believers too.



If you are deluded enough to believe the Bible, you must believe the God of the New Testament pursues the dead into death. This God, we are told, has found a way to torture even those who have paid "the final penalty." And this is only reserved for the ‘lesser’ unbelievers. And you say that the bible does not teach that gods acolytes are better, more blessed, than others?



I am not deluded, I am saved through grace and I am wise because I seek to save souls. You are lost in your sins, you of all people should be petrified because the wrath of almighty God is upon you. But while you are yet in your sins Christ died for you, reject the grace of salvation , and you will have God's wrath to deal with. Dont be like pharoah and harden your heart.


God Bless You.

A true believer and follower of Christ only wants his loved ones to be saved, and even people he doesnt know aswell, IE evryone . Are we better than unbelivers? Perish the thought, and quit that rubbish please. Im sorry if you have come accross somone who has treated you that why, its not right.

[picha]

I wonder what religion would be if it wasn't fear based. Take away concept of hell and end times. What would it be I wonder?

I may be wrong but buddism doesnt seem to be fear based.

[picha]

The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become a religion - which although purporting to unite, actually divide people and cause much trouble for the world. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity.

A very young child can have a concept of God without the doctrines and rules of a religion. It is in fact the doctrines and rules that make a religion.

So what does religion tell us? Amongst many other things, religion tells us that we were 'born in sin' and/or that we are naturally inclined towards doing evil; that's what the doctrines tell us from the main Holy books. However, as can be seen by history, religious people have created untold hate and violence towards humanity (and even animals). Religion makes people self-righteous bigots and religion gives the impression that they are chosen by God and therefore they think they are 'better' than people of other religions, or non.

Religion says that the devil tempts us to do wrong, when in actual fact it is religion that has successfully caused people to do much wrong and not have compassion for other people! Ah, but, religious people are telling us that their 'perfect' god created us all! Blind fools is what religious people are and I don't hesitate to tell you that your god is not the God of all.


So I dream of the day when the 'Holy' books are put in a glass case in a museum protected by Lazers and all other 'Holy' books have been burned as relics of the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLwwww.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw)
(John Lennon was onto something, hence he was murdered)


On the glass case in a museum it is written:

These are the books that people lived for and have been killed for


Underneath those words, would be a summery of all the wars and dreadful atrocities committed and 'justified' in the name of religion.

Please people, give it up.

There are two sides to the universe, that which joins and creates and that which divides and destroys... Religion divides - so which do you chose?

Im just interested to know after having been a JW what happened in your life that caused you to realise that religion is a deception?

[esowteric]

The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become a religion - which although purporting to unite, actually divide people and cause much trouble for the world. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity ...

Just as opinion is a poor substitute for fact, and even supposed "facts" change from time to time, so belief is a poor substitute for real knowledge. It degenerates and can become fossilised. Take care of your heart and look to Love and you won't go far wrong.

With good wishes,
eric.

[tjohn]

I am not deluded, I am saved through grace and I am wise because I seek to save souls. You are lost in your sins, you of all people should be petrified because the wrath of almighty God is upon you.

God Bless You.=Doublethink :rolleyes:

[miracles]

=Doublethink :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

[tjohn]

Im just interested to know after having been a JW what happened in your life that caused you to realise that religion is a deception?1) I saw much hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the JW religion (and others).
2) A JW friend killed herself.
3) I had my heart broken several times because I was being kind to other people but the JW 'Elders' did not approve, so I had to sit at the back of the congregation.
4) I missed out on love-life and was a virgin until I was nearly 40 because of trying to follow religion (not just JWs).
5) I did eventually get married but she was very screwed up, partly because of R.C. doctrines and she took all I had (after both my mum and dad had died within a few years).
6) As all this was going on, I studied the Bible independently and started seeing it for what it is - a deception.
7) Now I see the Qur'an on-line and I see that the Qur'an has a similar pattern to the Bible only worse.

So now at 61 years of age, I am without children to pass on my genes and my thoughts to. Religion has ruined the best part of my life but this is not just about me; religion has caused (and causes) untold suffering to humankind and all I want is for us to be one human family without religions which divide us.

[stfd]

1) I saw much hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the JW religion (and others).
2) A JW friend killed herself.
3) I had my heart broken several times because I was being kind to other people but the JW 'Elders' did not approve, so I had to sit at the back of the congregation.
4) I missed out on love-life and was a virgin until I was nearly 40 because of trying to follow religion (not just JWs).
5) I did eventually get married but she was very screwed up, partly because of R.C. doctrines and she took all I had (after both my mum and dad had died within a few years).
6) As all this was going on, I studied the Bible independently and started seeing it for what it is - a deception.
7) Now I see the Qur'an on-line and I see that the Qur'an has a similar pattern to the Bible only worse.

So now at 61 years of age, I am without children to pass on my genes and my thoughts to. Religion has ruined the best part of my life but this is not just about me; religion has caused (and causes) untold suffering to humankind and all I want is for us to be one human family without religion which divides us.

Assuming that what you say is true, i am deeply sorry.
And i say it this way because i mean it.

I do have to say however that this is entirely something like a circustantial turn of enevents.

I can't help but to say that you were in a very creppy sect there(JW). Really sorry to say it so plainly but it is the truth.
There is still time, time to heal the wounds of the past.

[tannah]

1) I saw much hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the JW religion (and others).
2) A JW friend killed herself.
3) I had my heart broken several times because I was being kind to other people but the JW 'Elders' did not approve, so I had to sit at the back of the congregation.
4) I missed out on love-life and was a virgin until I was nearly 40 because of trying to follow religion (not just JWs).
5) I did eventually get married but she was very screwed up, partly because of R.C. doctrines and she took all I had (after both my mum and dad had died within a few years).
6) As all this was going on, I studied the Bible independently and started seeing it for what it is - a deception.
7) Now I see the Qur'an on-line and I see that the Qur'an has a similar pattern to the Bible only worse.

So now at 61 years of age, I am without children to pass on my genes and my thoughts to. Religion has ruined the best part of my life but this is not just about me; religion has caused (and causes) untold suffering to humankind and all I want is for us to be one human family without religions which divide us.

I understand this. Part of my own journey too. I've come to see what happened , for me, as necessary experiences on the way to finding a valuable pearl. And that pearl is as you state right at the end "all I want is for us to be one human family without religions which divide us"

I understand that we can feel it is one big price to pay, but on the other hand this is one lifetime of yours, and you've reached a subtle fruition where you realize what the underlying truth is about this one human family of ours (all of creation in fact). You've completed a journey. I think your next journey is going to be fuelled by this important realization of yours.

[fallensoul]

There is much wisdom to be found in religions yet, the way it is used is far from anything wise.

Correct me here if I am wrong but to my understanding the Devil in the bible is the accuser, tempter, w/e but is there actually any passages describing how he slaughters whole peoples? I mean based on bibles account alone the god Christians worship has done some unspeakable evil deeds, yet Satan has merely accused people and tempted them.

I am not promoting either figure, I just would like someone religious to explain this to me.

Also I do not understand how anyone could confess their eternal love and devotion to a mass murderer, I don't care if he is a god or anything. The actions define the character, not their words.

[merlincove]

I dont mean to offend bro, honestly I dont, Sorry to be abrasive. But seriously? Beatles music as evidence for a religious belief or mantra to aspire too?. Please. I thought you guys actually where awake to the music industry. Aint no body bigger than the beatles, they started it all. Yes it is a very pleasant song musically, thats the power of it. Where you aware that satan is a musical instrument. His whole body has a built in orchestra. It use to be used to produce beautiful sound in worship of God, he now uses this to be worshipped himself. "Mother Mary" coming to Paul, is him. Subtle but very sinister, and very true. Im not asking you to bow down to me, bow down to the reality. Principles and truth are important, not personalities, particularly familar spirit personalites.

Ezekiel 28:13b ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Isaiah14:11-12 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols [stringed instruments]: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


No offence :D

i don't see the music industry, nor the beatles, as being satanic in any way other than it offers up false idols.

Lennon said it himself, we are bigger than the bible, and it was true, in essence, because, the media industry built and catapulted a conceptionalised idea of worship from the masses into being.

Angels make music too, btw :D

Music creates a vibration, and that vibration resonates with our emotional bodies creating an emotive response, triggering emotions and creating a feeling. When we listen to beautiful music the feeling resounds with a beauty and a resonance of love and compassion, when we listen to harsh music the sounds create feelings of energy, which often manifest with violent aspects of mental and emotional release - head-banging, drive by shootings etc.

the drive by shootings bit was humour btw :D

but consider listening to Let it Be, imagine, some of the most beautiful songs to emerge from the beatles, imho. Consider how they create a reaction, songs can bring tears of emotion, beauty and love to mind and heart. Some songs make you cry because they embody such beauty - Angel song within the astral is a perfect representaion of this.

There is some music at the end of crocodile dundee, it is a svery simple aboriginal shamanic drum beat, with pecussion, when he has gone walkabout in manhattan and the lass goes off to find him, as i'm typing that music is creating an emotive response within me, and i can't even hear it with my physical ears, but i feel the energy building! The music builds as she is running to catch up with him, and by the time she reaches him it is in full swing, that tune always, absolutely always, makes me cry. But i have a deep resonance with that music field anyway, it's not that i'm a sissy :p

it starts about 2 minutes in (play it loud for impact) :D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSDg2FsIW9k

And then there is some music that creates anger within me, makes me wanna hit stuff. I don't listen to that much. :D

So my point, lol: neither music, nor the industry is satanic, but music does have the power to create love, beauty / hatred, fear, and influence the mind in certain ways.

:D

EDIT: sorry to de-rail, OP :-)

[fallensoul]

I am waiting a reply from miracles, anxiously :D

[stfd]

There is much wisdom to be found in religions yet, the way it is used is far from anything wise.

Correct me here if I am wrong but to my understanding the Devil in the bible is the accuser, tempter, w/e but is there actually any passages describing how he slaughters whole peoples? I mean based on bibles account alone the god Christians worship has done some unspeakable evil deeds, yet Satan has merely accused people and tempted them.

I am not promoting either figure, I just would like someone religious to explain this to me.

Also I do not understand how anyone could confess their eternal love and devotion to a mass murderer, I don't care if he is a god or anything. The actions define the character, not their words.

is it alright if i answer this?

[fallensoul]

Go ahead, the more replies the better.

[joyce7]

As I get older I question what is Religion?Why do you have to follow one to be better than the next person?If you don't go to Church etc you're looked down upon.All religions follow the same lines and same laws.

[stfd]

There is much wisdom to be found in religions yet, the way it is used is far from anything wise.

Correct me here if I am wrong but to my understanding the Devil in the bible is the accuser, tempter, w/e but is there actually any passages describing how he slaughters whole peoples? I mean based on bibles account alone the god Christians worship has done some unspeakable evil deeds, yet Satan has merely accused people and tempted them.

I am not promoting either figure, I just would like someone religious to explain this to me.

Also I do not understand how anyone could confess their eternal love and devotion to a mass murderer, I don't care if he is a god or anything. The actions define the character, not their words.

So it goes like this:
Lucifer is the acuser,tempter,the source of darkness and deceit etc etc .
He does not slaughter people no , why would he do that? it would make no sense. He does "slaughter" souls however thats his gig.
What he does(Luci) gets people to slaughter eachother instead, that way he shots more than two birds with one stone- the more birds the better.
Once the men are dead he (Luci) takes their souls and thats that.

God on the other hand has done no unspeakeable deeds ( mind giving an example? ) Mass murderer where did you get that?

[fallensoul]

Okay I can see what you mean, but doesn't he still leave them with a choice, to fall into his temptation or walk away, just like Jesus did?

And I believe the mass murdering part was covered in this thread, check out post 18, and what about the flood? Also I would call sacrificing your only son an unspeakable deed, I mean he is all powerful and everything, why make a point in such a brutal manner.

[stfd]

Okay I can see what you mean, but doesn't he still leave them with a choice, to fall into his temptation or walk away, just like Jesus did?

And I believe the mass murdering part was covered in this thread, check out post 18, and what about the flood? Also I would call sacrificing your only son an unspeakable deed, I mean he is all powerful and everything, why make a point in such a brutal manner.

Of course, there is always THE option of not doing or thinking a certain thing.
Is called freedom.
And we have that, we have been blessed with that.
The choice is theirs (the humans) to do ,act and think as they see fit - what comes after that is another story - but they still have total freedom.

The flood wasnt mass murder.
It was a purge/cleanse action. Remember ,were talking about God and not a human being.

As for sacrificing His son... well Jesus IS God. Father , Son and Holy Spirit are one undivisible 'thing' ( lack of inspiration). Holy Trinity.
Hence one can say that God came on eart lived and sacrificed Himself for our sins. Perfectly correct , and not flawed whatsoever.

And remember, there were other two who were nailed to the Cross at the same time. One of them asked, why isn't Jesus get down , 'save' Himself and punsih all those who did this to Him.
He answered that His mission is another; the instension was to save our souls, to lift those who were already ' down with Luci' up to the Father and " smash the snake's head" .

[fallensoul]

Thanks for your insight, I guess we can both agree here that no matter what is said from here on it boils down to our point of view how we see the events on a personal level. I respect your opinion but I have my own. Carry on!

[stfd]

Thanks for your insight, I guess we can both agree here that no matter what is said from here on it boils down to our point of view how we see the events on a personal level. I respect your opinion but I have my own. Carry on!

Heh fair enough from my perspective( wich is just a human perspective btw)

"it boils down to our point of view how we see the events"

I agree with this ONLY if taken from a human approach.
This however (this perception of things at personal level) doeant change how certain things are.

I will give an example:
Say i do witchcraft and you dont.
I say that what i do is good.
You say is bad.
I say it's my right to believe is good to do as such and therefore is good.
You say is alright with you as it is my beliefe and im free to have one.

However - the universal fact that witchcraft is universally bad still stands , whatever our ' perception at personal level is' .

And while all are free to express themselves and act with freedom the fact that certain things are in a certain way in the grand scheme of things does not change regardless of our 'personal belief or perception).

:)

[fallensoul]

However - the universal fact that witchcraft is universally bad still stands , whatever our ' perception at personal level is.

How is it an universal fact tho? Did some authority inform you of this? I think most things including witchcraft is not so black and white and up for debate, but again it is my opinion :)

[miracles]

There is much wisdom to be found in religions yet, the way it is used is far from anything wise.

Correct me here if I am wrong but to my understanding the Devil in the bible is the accuser, tempter, w/e but is there actually any passages describing how he slaughters whole peoples? I mean based on bibles account alone the god Christians worship has done some unspeakable evil deeds, yet Satan has merely accused people and tempted them.

I am not promoting either figure, I just would like someone religious to explain this to me.

Also I do not understand how anyone could confess their eternal love and devotion to a mass murderer, I don't care if he is a god or anything. The actions define the character, not their words.

Justice is not murder. There are thousands of people who have been executed for crimes against humanity, this is not murder. That God executed whole cities only means the whole culture of people was corrupted beyond repair, remember he had to wipe out all manking before, if He lest it get out of hand, he would have to do that again. You don't seem to realise how fallen humanity is, we are all totally depraved at our baseist level.

And satan whom you think is guiltless (sheeesh) is the cause of ALL DEATH AND MURDER AND EVIL. God is good, there is no evil or sin in him. And if you hold on to that premise, it will help you to seek the truth in scripture in order to understand why God does certain things.(assumingyou want the truth that is) Believe me, I have struggled with the same issues as you. I threw my bible accross the room once about 15 years ago when reading what you are talking about in the OT and I wouldnt read the OT again for years, I said I dont want to worship a God like that, and who would? It can take a long time to figure some things out, but the answers are always there.

[tannah]

Justice is not murder. There are thousands of people who have been executed for crimes against humanity, this is not murder. That God executed whole cities only means the whole culture of people was corrupted beyond repair, remember he had to wipe out all manking before, if He lest it get out of hand, he would have to do that again. You don't seem to realise how fallen humanity is, we are all totally depraved at our baseist level.

You should actually stfu with words like that. You don't know much about anything if you can actually believe fairy tales as reality. Idiot brother. Don't you think enough blood has been shed over shit like that????


And satan whom you think is guiltless (sheeesh) is the cause of ALL DEATH AND MURDER AND EVIL. God is good, there is no evil or sin in him. And if you hold on to that premise, it will help you to seek the truth in scripture in order to understand why God does certain things.(assumingyou want the truth that is) Believe me, I have struggled with the same issues as you. I threw my bible accross the room once about 15 years ago when reading what you are talking about in the OT and I wouldnt read the OT again for years, I said I dont want to worship a God like that, and who would? It can take a long time to figure some things out, but the answers are always there.

Your answers are silly. You haven't got a clue about reality. You want to believe God's word, then sidestep God's blatant murder, then blame it on evil and blah blah blah. STFU idiots. You haven't got any clue about reality. It's about time you STFU blind brothers.:D

If there is a real God/Creator around here, it doesn't do the kind of crap you're egos think it does.

How can you seriously believe the crap you do?

[miracles]

No offence :D

i don't see the music industry, nor the beatles, as being satanic in any way other than it offers up false idols.

Lennon said it himself, we are bigger than the bible, and it was true, in essence, because, the media industry built and catapulted a conceptionalised idea of worship from the masses into being.

Angels make music too, btw :D

Music creates a vibration, and that vibration resonates with our emotional bodies creating an emotive response, triggering emotions and creating a feeling. When we listen to beautiful music the feeling resounds with a beauty and a resonance of love and compassion,

but consider listening to Let it Be, imagine, some of the most beautiful songs to emerge from the beatles, imho. Consider how they create a reaction, songs can bring tears of emotion, beauty and love to mind and heart. Some songs make you cry because they embody such beauty - Angel song within the astral is a perfect representaion of this.

There is some music at the end of crocodile dundee, it is a svery simple aboriginal shamanic drum beat, with pecussion, when he has gone walkabout in manhattan and the lass goes off to find him, as i'm typing that music is creating an emotive response within me, and i can't even hear it with my physical ears, but i feel the energy building! The music builds as she is running to catch up with him, and by the time she reaches him it is in full swing, that tune always, absolutely always, makes me cry. But i have a deep resonance with that music field anyway, it's not that i'm a sissy :p


And then there is some music that creates anger within me, makes me wanna hit stuff. I don't listen to that much. :D

So my point, lol: neither music, nor the industry is satanic, but music does have the power to create love, beauty / hatred, fear, and influence the mind in certain ways.

:D

EDIT: sorry to de-rail, OP :-)

You make a strong point, and a well made point, about the power of music over the human psyche, however it doesnt refute my point just becuase you choose not to believe manstream rock music is satanic.

I used to be drummer in a very well known covers band in Northern Ireland professionally for a year. Also when I became a christian I got sucked into the penetcostal charasmatic (kaos) movement and played the drums in church. Did you know that the illuminati funded christian rock music to the turm of 8 million dollars to ensure that rock music survived in the "chruch" becuase they where so worried it wasnt going to.Thats a fact. Rock? Thats because it is a tool for controlling the emotions, to hype people up then you can implant messages easier. I never really listened to the words in songs until I became a Christian, apart from my favourites of course.

[miracles]

You should actually stfu with words like that. You don't know much about anything if you can actually believe fairy tales as reality. Idiot brother. Don't you think enough blood has been shed over shit like that????




Your answers are silly. You haven't got a clue about reality. You want to believe God's word, then sidestep God's blatant murder, then blame it on evil and blah blah blah. STFU idiots. You haven't got any clue about reality. It's about time you STFU blind brothers.:D

If there is a real God/Creator around here, it doesn't do the kind of crap you're egos think it does.

How can you seriously believe the crap you do?

what does stfu mean? Let it all dude dont hold back, he with the loudest voice has the deepest hole.

[adbasque]

what does stfu mean? Let it all dude dont hold back, he with the loudest voice has the deepest hole.

I am sorry to say, it's not a nice thing bro, very childish though

STFU = Shut the F**** Up

[tannah]

what does stfu mean? Let it all dude dont hold back, he with the loudest voice has the deepest hole.

Well, are my days at David Icke forum limited if I tell you that you're God
is full of shit, and you are full of it to. I don't respect your crap God man., It's BS. And yes, "shut the fuck up" with your God of eternal hell. We're voting him out. He's outta here. He can fuck off to the make believe BS fantasy he was invented in.:D Is that plain enough? I can make it easier for you to understand, but must go to sleep now.

I'm fed up with your fantasies. People like you stop real progress being made between us folk.

[tjohn]

So it goes like this:
Lucifer is the acuser,tempter,the source of darkness and deceit etc etc .The word Lucifer (meaning light) and the word darkness, are contradiction in terms. Haven't people wondered about this?

Jesus, as a real person it turns out, very likely did not exist as portrayal in the Bible.

Then what about Lucifer who the Bible says has fallen? Could it be that 'Lucifer' rather than being are real person is a symbolic character? And what about the Devil, couldn't that symbolic too? And what about the Serpent?

Gen 3:3-7a "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the Serpent [represents DNA] said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened..."

Notice that in the KJV Bible it says, "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil."? (Gen 3:5) And it was after the 'fall' that Gen 3:7 says "the eyes of them both were opened."

There's our Lucifer that has 'fallen', human enlightenment! So the gods shortened our lifespan and intellect (by damaging our DNA) in order to hide the truth from us.

Gen 6:3 "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

God on the other hand has done no unspeakable deeds (mind giving an example?) Mass murderer where did you get that?Read the Bible and within there is mass murder by a "God" whom we have been told made us all and everything.

In short, religion is a Con.

[tjohn]

Really? The bible is just one huge statement that "we are the best and all others must die and be damned". Consider:

The Bible says in Exodus 10, verse 27, "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Then in verse 29; we read "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

ie the followers of god are better than the Egyptians.

In the Bible (Deut. 28, verse 16) God is made to say: "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth."

ie slaughter defenseless, defeated people, "to save alive nothing that breatheth." because we are better than they.

In the Bible (Josh. 10, verse 12-13) "Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and said in the sight of Israel, sun, stand thou still upon Gideon; and thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon. (13) and the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies."

Again...

In the Bible (1 Samuel 6, verse 19) "And He smote the men of Bethsemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with great slaughter."

ie If another people look at our (superior) works then they shall be destroyed.

Jesus is said to have said: (Luke 14:26) "If any man come to me and hate not his father, his mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

ie we are better even than your own family – confirmed by:

Jesus is said to have said: (Matthew 10:34-37) "Think not that I am come to send peace to earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword. (35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in- law against her mother-in-law. (36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. (37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Jesus is said to have said: (Luke 12:5) "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; I say unto you, fear him."

Christianity is founded upon fear; the fear of: "if your not one of us, you are eternally damned." ie we are better than you.

Unlike the God of the Old Testament, the God of the New Testament was not happy when his victims lay dead and broken before him. The Son of God has not only carried on the family tradition, but has exceeded the wildest expectations of the father.

If you are deluded enough to believe the Bible, you must believe the God of the New Testament pursues the dead into death. This God, we are told, has found a way to torture even those who have paid "the final penalty." And this is only reserved for the ‘lesser’ unbelievers. And you say that the bible does not teach that gods acolytes are better, more blessed, than others?Thank-you, agneau! :)

[tannah]

I am sorry to say, it's not a nice thing bro, very childish though

STFU = Shut the F**** Up

Awwwww, am I rude? At least I don't murder children, and pretend it was a righteous thing to do. Or maybe get it on with a nine year old like your deity fondler did eh Adbasque.

I know, I'm so rude eh? O dear, a few minus points coming my way. Please do report my posts, tossers.:D

Let's not offend the Prophets, or they may suck your testicles until you become infertile and they will cast you in hell for scoffing at their small penises. I know they are fantasies. How about you? Still convinced we have a God in this universe that does what your texts suggest?

[adbasque]

Awwwww, am I rude? At least I don't murder children, and pretend it was a righteous thing to do. Or maybe get it on with a nine year old like your deity fondler did eh Adbasque.

I know, I'm so rude eh? O dear, a few minus points coming my way. Please do report my posts, tossers.:D

Let's not offend the Prophets, or they may suck your testicles until you become infertile and they will cast you in hell for scoffing at their small penises. I know they are fantasies. How about you? Still convinced we have a God in this universe that does what your texts suggest?

Act your age :)

[tjohn]

Well, are my days at David Icke forum limited if I tell you that you're God
is full of shit, and you are full of it to. I don't respect your crap God man., It's BS. And yes, "shut the fuck up" with your God of eternal hell. We're voting him out. He's outta here. He can fuck off to the make believe BS fantasy he was invented in.:D Is that plain enough? I can make it easier for you to understand, but must go to sleep now.

I'm fed up with your fantasies. People like you stop real progress being made between us folk.Ouch!

... and you are right! :) ;)

[tannah]

Act your age :)

You don't undertsand Ad. I hung out with real people as always tonight, none of which give a toss about your beliefs, or Miracles beliefs. Yet real people with real spirits. You simply have to examine your crap beliefs dude!

I'm not being childish. Your beliefs, and people like Miracles, are simply crap. I've seen the light tonight. Tough for you. Your kinda God is a total illusion.:)
There's either no God at all, or the Kind of God I invisage, as a force we all grow toward. To think there's a God with a speaking part, that gives a shit about a hell or a heaven is just old wives tales man.:D

Admit it, you don't have a clue about this muslim or christian description of a God. Why would you like to believe in such??

How would you know Adbasque? Because some book told you? Well books don't override reality. To think that a God exists that would punish the friends I have met in life , just because they think having to believe in a son of God is silly, is really silly. It's stupid. Any real creator wouldn't play silly games like that.

So it looks to me that you are at a level where you will not see that which you think you will expect to see. None of your expectations will come to pass. You won't see a casting of human beings into hell. Sorry to dissappoint you. But great news for us all nevertheless, no idiot man made murderous God is real.:D

[manxboz]

Why is everyone so full of hate, can't anyone see that this is what they want you to do. It disgusts me to be called a Human Being alongside you lot.:mad:

[tjohn]

Awwwww, am I rude? At least I don't murder children, and pretend it was a righteous thing to do. Or maybe get it on with a nine year old like your deity fondler did eh Adbasque.

I know, I'm so rude eh? O dear, a few minus points coming my way. Please do report my posts, tossers.:D

Let's not offend the Prophets, or they may suck your testicles until you become infertile and they will cast you in hell for scoffing at their small penises. I know they are fantasies. How about you? Still convinced we have a God in this universe that does what your texts suggest?Ouch, Ouch!

I see you feel very strongly about this subject and so do I. However, please try to stay calm, OK? :D

[tjohn]

You don't undertsand Ad. I hung out with real people as always tonight, none of which give a toss about your beliefs, or Miracles beliefs. Yet real people with real spirits. You simply have to examine your crap beliefs dude!

I'm not being childish. Your beliefs, and people like Miracles, are simply crap. I've seen the light tonight. Tough for you. Your kinda God is a total illusion.:)
There's either no God at all, or the Kind of God I invisage, as a force we all grow toward. To think there's a God with a speaking part, that gives a shit about a hell or a heaven is just old wives tales man.:D

Admit it, you don't have a clue about this muslim or christian description of a God. Why would you like to believe in such??

How would you know Adbasque? Because some book told you? Well books don't override reality. To think that a God exists that would punish the friends I have met in life , just because they think having to believe in a son of God is silly, is really silly. It's stupid. Any real creator wouldn't play silly games like that.

So it looks to me that you are at a level where you will not see that which you think you will expect to see. None of your expectations will come to pass. You won't see a casting of human beings into hell. Sorry to dissappoint you. But great news for us all nevertheless, no idiot man made murderous God is real.:DVery pleased you meet people with real love, unlike the pious religionists! :)

[tjohn]

Why is everyone so full of hate, can't anyone see that this is what they want you to do. It disgusts me to be called a Human Being alongside you lot.:mad:Religion is full of hate disguised as 'love'.

[manxboz]

Religion is full of hate disguised as love.

Not just Religion Human life is full of hate disguised as love.

[adbasque]

You don't undertsand Ad. I hung out with real people as always tonight, none of which give a toss about your beliefs, or Miracles beliefs. Yet real people with real spirits. You simply have to examine your crap beliefs dude!

I'm not being childish. Your beliefs, and people like Miracles, are simply crap. I've seen the light tonight. Tough for you. Your kinda God is a total illusion.:)
There's either no God at all, or the Kind of God I invisage, as a force we all grow toward. To think there's a God with a speaking part, that gives a shit about a hell or a heaven is just old wives tales man.:D

Admit it, you don't have a clue about this muslim or christian description of a God. Why would you like to believe in such??

How would you know Adbasque? Because some book told you? Well books don't override reality. To think that a God exists that would punish the friends I have met in life , just because they think having to believe in a son of God is silly, is really silly. It's stupid. Any real creator wouldn't play silly games like that.

So it looks to me that you are at a level where you will not see that which you think you will expect to see. None of your expectations will come to pass. You won't see a casting of human beings into hell. Sorry to dissappoint you. But great news for us all nevertheless, no idiot man made murderous God is real.:D

Nothing personal, but try and act your age, you will have more credibility :)
You can insult as much as you like, it won't change the course of reality.

[adbasque]

Not just Religion Human life is full of hate disguised as love.

Yes absolutely :)

[tannah]

Ouch, Ouch!

I see you feel very strongly about this subject and so do I. However, please try to stay calm, OK? :D

Don't get me wrong. I'm celebrating man! Sorry If I come accross as anything else.

I'm happy to take the pee out of old superstition. I don't apologize anymore. It has got to stop.

I'm calm.:D I just take offence tonight at having my friends condemned to hell because they don't believe in sweet Jesus meek and mild being their wittle saviour. It may have been a number one hit for a few centuries, but it's been knocked off the top spot by a new song.

I know why people want to believe in a God of heaven and hell. It's to justify themselves (heaven bound) and to condemn their enemies (hell). Well , tough luck kiddies.:D

[tannah]

Nothing personal, but try and act your age, you will have more credibility :)
You can insult as much as you like, it won't change the course of reality.

You don't get it then. I'm passionate about people, life and this universe.

Credibility from minds that want to stick up for their bible or Koran???? Jim goes to heaven and Dorothy goes to hell? Cha! It's over! You guys need to be less childish, not me. Your belief systems are a laughing stock.

Sitting there thinking you have a clue about the destiny of mankind, as told by books? Ha ha ha ha ha.:D

[tjohn]

don't get me wrong. I'm celebrating man! Sorry if i come accross as anything else.

I'm happy to take the pee out of old superstition. I don't apologize anymore. It has got to stop.

I'm calm.:d i just take offence tonight at having my friends condemned to hell because they don't believe in sweet jesus meek and mild being their wittle saviour. It may have been a number one hit for a few centuries, but it's been knocked off the top spot by a new song.

I know why people want to believe in a god of heaven and hell. It's to justify themselves (heaven bound) and to condemn their enemies (hell). Well , tough luck kiddies.:dlol! :D ;)

[tjohn]

Not just Religion Human life is full of hate disguised as love.Human life would be much less hateful without religion telling people what to think and feel.

Try it. :rolleyes:

[manxboz]

oh i am, but i also no that without Religion we would fight about something else.We're a sick race.

[tjohn]

Nothing personal, but try and act your age, you will have more credibility :)
You can insult as much as you like, it won't change the course of reality.And in reality, have you contributed any real sense to this thread? :rolleyes: No.

[tjohn]

oh i am, but i also no that without Religion we would fight about something else.We're a sick race.We are a sick race because we have been brought up to be so!

Some are more sick than others and amongst the most sick are people who follow religions.

[manxboz]

We are a sick race because we have been brought up to be so!

Some are more sick than others and amongst the most sick are people who follow religions.

Not everyone in a Religion are evil sick ppl, some are really full of love.

[adbasque]

You don't get it then. I'm passionate about people, life and this universe.

Credibility from minds that want to stick up for their bible or Koran???? Jim goes to heaven and Dorothy goes to hell? Cha! It's over! You guys need to be less childish, not me. Your belief systems are a laughing stock.

Sitting there thinking you have a clue about the destiny of mankind, as told by books? Ha ha ha ha ha.:D

Right now you're the one who's agitated, not me, who are you trying to convince yourself or me?
If you're so sure why are you jumping up and down, unless something is really missing in your life:rolleyes:

That is exactly what happened to those who refuse to believe, they reject everything, because it's scary, sounds to me like a typical childish reaction, when afraid they cover their eyes.:)
I don't understand why are you telling me this, If you're so convinced, good luck to you, why the insults and personal attacks?


Insecurity makes people very nervous, and your reaction was expected too.

You keep preaching love, but at the first opportunity you won't hesitate to attack, insult, try and humiliate the other person simply because they disagree with your view, you provoke in a hope of getting a negative reaction.
It gives you a feeling of power.

Which will give you a pretext to let out what's really hurting you.
Yes you can disguise your frustration with nice smileys etc.. I look beyond the obvious.

Is that the love you keep preaching? With love like yours who needs hate?
:)

Not an insult but judging from your last posts and behaviours, I'd say try and act your age, try and discuss the matter like an adult and with your superior intelligence.

May I remind you that you haven't provided any evidence or proof yet, you do realise that, don't you?

Just your words nothing else.
Try real love see if it works, well if you're able to show real love.

Avoid talking for the sake of it.


Take care and I wish you an inner peace, it's genuine btw.

[tjohn]

You make a strong point, and a well made point, about the power of music over the human psyche, however it doesnt refute my point just becuase you choose not to believe manstream rock music is satanic.

I used to be drummer in a very well known covers band in Northern Ireland professionally for a year. Also when I became a christian I got sucked into the penetcostal charasmatic (kaos) movement and played the drums in church. Did you know that the illuminati funded christian rock music to the turm of 8 million dollars to ensure that rock music survived in the "chruch" becuase they where so worried it wasnt going to.Thats a fact. Rock? Thats because it is a tool for controlling the emotions, to hype people up then you can implant messages easier.... Including of course the beautiful music in all religious churches...

[miracles]

Including of course the beautiful music in all religious churches...

Well as usual you missed the point. Music in these so called churches IE Christian Rock Music, is not beautiful music.

[adbasque]

And in reality, have you contributed any real sense to this thread? :rolleyes: No.

Yes John, I had no intention in contributing, I simply replied to one person, I didn't want to get involved in this thread, the title says it all.

It will only lead to one thing.

So, I won't add anything after this.

Good luck to you all

[tjohn]

... That is exactly what happened to those who refuse to believe, they reject everything, because it's scary, sounds to me like a typical childish reaction, when afraid they cover their eyes.:)Refusing to 'believe' is scary (and childish)? For you it is.

[miracles]

Don't get me wrong. I'm celebrating man! Sorry If I come accross as anything else.

I'm happy to take the pee out of old superstition. I don't apologize anymore. It has got to stop.

I'm calm.:D I just take offence tonight at having my friends condemned to hell because they don't believe in sweet Jesus meek and mild being their wittle saviour. It may have been a number one hit for a few centuries, but it's been knocked off the top spot by a new song.

I know why people want to believe in a God of heaven and hell. It's to justify themselves (heaven bound) and to condemn their enemies (hell). Well , tough luck kiddies.:D

Hey we all go out with friends and dont talk about religion, I reserve that for religious discussion forums. The fact that you cant handle another persons contribution, IE a person that believes different from you, in a religious discussion forum no less, only serves to confrim what a hate filled, arrogant, self centered in the extreme, egocentric, bullying biggot you are.

So how about you stfu for a while unless you have something of value to contribute instead of your sick, twisted, whiney, little girls blouse, hate speach.

[tjohn]

Well as usual you missed the point. Music in these so called churches IE Christian Rock Music, is not beautiful music.Christian rock music is beautiful to some people and you have missed the point.
To quote your own words... Thats because it is a tool for controlling the emotions, to hype people up then you can implant messages easier...So what about the music in other churches?

[miracles]

Christian rock music is beautiful to some people and you have missed the point.
To quote your own words... So what about the music in other churches?

What music, and what churches?

[tjohn]

Hey we all go out with friends and dont talk about religion, I reserve that for religious discussion forums. The fact that you cant handle another persons contribution, IE a person that believes different from you, in a religious discussion forum no less, only serves to confrim what a hate filled, arrogant, self centered in the extreme, egocentric, bullying biggot you are.

So how about you stfu for a while unless you have something of value to contribute instead of your sick, twisted, whiney, little girls blouse, hate speach.God (if you will excuse the expression)! So here's a clue, "Mirror, Mirror on the wall"... who's got the best religion of all? :rolleyes:
:D

[tjohn]

What music, and what churches?It doesn't matter. It's all for the same reason, to effect people's feelings and emotions. In your own words, "to.... implant messages easier...."

I anticipate that you now will be thinking of John Lennon's song, Imagine which influenced a lot of people. So I ask, did that song cause people to go out and commit murder? The only person murdered because of his music was John Lennon himself.

Then I ask does religion with it's self-righteous dogma such as often expressed in religious music, cause murder? Yes it does! Yet you say that John Lennon's music is demonic?

You know your Bible (and yet you don't) so I feel sure you know it says, "every tree is known by its fruit" - "by their fruit you will know them"

Ironic.

Anyone with eyes can see that on the whole, the 'fruit' of religion has been, and still is, the cause of division and hate for humankind! Religion might appear to teach 'love' but that's the trick to get sheeple into the 'fold', to be indoctrinated into religion's self-righteous agenda.

[miracles]

It doesn't matter. It's all for the same reason, to effect people's feelings and emotions. In your own words, "to.... implant messages easier...."

Which I dont agree with. Okay do you get the freaken point now?

[tjohn]

Which I dont agree with. Okay do you get the freaken point now?Religious music does effect the emotions. Religious songs do contain messages. Do you get the freaken point now?
:D

[tjohn]

Well one has to imagine theres no heaven or hell, yes its easy if you try, but that don't get rid of it. Imagine thers no wars etc. Imagination is imagination, not realisation.

Imagine your 20 pounds lighter
No wrinkles too, I,magine your not balding
Its easy if you try
But when you look in the mirror
your going to cry

Bhoo hooo ohhoooooooo

Imagine all the sheeple beleiving in this crap.....
And I laugh all the way to the bank.

The end.Actually, the banks do have a lot to do with it.

[tjohn]

Banks BTW, have to do with river banks....

Down By the Riverside

Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside

Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Ain't gonna study war no more.Is that a 'demonic' song?

[miracles]

Banks BTW, have to do with river banks....

Is that a 'demonic' song?




Depends what they where up to with their swords before they decided to lay them down. :)

[tjohn]

Depends what they where up to with their swords before they decided to lay them down. :)Silly man the song is about the laying down of swords. In other words, the song is about promoting peace! On the other hand, religion with its self-righteousness of "we are better that you" causes endless wars! How can you deny that? How many thousands of years of bloodshed will it take for people to realise?


Then the John Lennon song Imagine says:

"Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do.

Nothing to kill or die for and no religion too.

Imagine all the people, living life in peace!

You hoo... you may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

I hope some day you'll join us, and the world can be as one."

[vril]

So how about you stfu for a while unless you have something of value to contribute instead of your sick, twisted, whiney, little girls blouse, hate speach.

I'm sorry I'm not getting involved in this discussion, I merely wanted to say that the line in bold made me LMAO!

I'm not necessarily agreeing with you, and I know it sounds ridiculous but for some reason that really cracked me up. :confused: :rolleyes: :):D

[tjohn]

I'm sorry I'm not getting involved in this discussion, I merely wanted to say that the line in bold made me LMAO!

I'm not necessarily agreeing with you, and I know it sounds ridiculous but for some reason that really cracked me up. :confused: :rolleyes: :):DPerhaps he has a fetish for little girls blouses? :D Or, is he just being sexist?

[vril]

Perhaps he has a fetish for little girls blouses? :D

LOL!

Nah, I don't think so! I'll give him the benefit of the doubt! :)

[miracles]

I'm sorry I'm not getting involved in this discussion, I merely wanted to say that the line in bold made me LMAO!

I'm not necessarily agreeing with you, and I know it sounds ridiculous but for some reason that really cracked me up. :confused: :rolleyes: :):D

Its a new zealand sayng and I actually stuffed it up, its "Ya Big Girls Blouse", glad ya got a laugh out of it mate. :D

[tjohn]

LOL!

Nah, I don't think so! I'll give him the benefit of the doubt! :)I would like to think so too but with religion in his mind, who knows?

[miracles]

I would like to think so too but with religion in his mind, who knows?

Im not easily offended, but I am by that. Way to bring world peace before you leave this mortal coil. Your a real piece of work, a deception.

[tjohn]

Im not easily offended, but I am by that. Way to bring world peace before you leave this mortal coil. Your a real piece of work, a deception.I did use the words "perhaps" and "who knows?" so if it doesn't apply, there's no need to take offence. What offends me very much, is all the violence and bloodshed that has been committed in the name of religion. How do you feel about that?


May your God be with you. :D :) :eek:

[stfd]

I did use the words "perhaps" and "who knows?" so if it doesn't apply there's no need to take offence. What offends me very much, is all the bloodshed that has been committed in the name of religion. How do you feel about that?

We were told it is in the name of religion or at least it what we were/are led to believe. In reality it was/is all done in someone elses 'name'.

and btw it makes my very sick yea.

[tannah]

Right now you're the one who's agitated, not me, who are you trying to convince yourself or me?
If you're so sure why are you jumping up and down, unless something is really missing in your life:rolleyes:


Ummm, I really wasn't agitated at all last night. Went out, had a couple of beers, played some nice blues (evil man), chatted with nice people, then came back here to read about how people like me and my friends are gonna be sent to some nasty dark place by Miracle's God. Agitated? I'd have to say that anyone who believes rubbish like Miracles believes, have at their core a foundation of resentment perhaps caused by childhood traumas. Religion sits nicely on top of that anger for some.


That is exactly what happened to those who refuse to believe, they reject everything, because it's scary, sounds to me like a typical childish reaction, when afraid they cover their eyes.:)
I don't understand why are you telling me this, If you're so convinced, good luck to you, why the insults and personal attacks?

No personal "attack" intended. I respond to the words I read in front of me.
I'd rather defend liberty away from a God of illusion with a bit of poetic license at times. I rarely get angry in fact.


Insecurity makes people very nervous, and your reaction was expected too.


Rubbish.


You keep preaching love, but at the first opportunity you won't hesitate to attack, insult, try and humiliate the other person simply because they disagree with your view, you provoke in a hope of getting a negative reaction.
It gives you a feeling of power.

Garbage. Love isn't always a nice appeasing of one's ego you know. When a father or mother get stern with their children for their own good, it's a very valid form of love. As long as what is being said is the truth about something, I'm happy to have my natural biorythms dude.:D



Which will give you a pretext to let out what's really hurting you.
Yes you can disguise your frustration with nice smileys etc.. I look beyond the obvious.


I don't do laying on couches at the psychiatrist personally.


Is that the love you keep preaching? With love like yours who needs hate?
:)


Nice stock reply there. A lot of hate is false compliments, flattery to deceive kinda thing.


Not an insult but judging from your last posts and behaviours, I'd say try and act your age, try and discuss the matter like an adult and with your superior intelligence.


I can act any age I choose whenever I want to.


May I remind you that you haven't provided any evidence or proof yet, you do realise that, don't you?

Of what??

Just your words nothing else.
Try real love see if it works, well if you're able to show real love.


Don't talk about real love you funny chappie you, and then justify it with one of your holy books. Get off your bloody pedestal. I want real life, not a phoney pretender telling me what real love is and that I should try it.


Take care and I wish you an inner peace, it's genuine btw.

And to your real self too of course. But if you want to talk about my own inner peace, start a thread, I'll let you into some of it. It was helped greatly when I somehow found enough courage to walk away from false gods. Haven't conquered all the attachments, but it gets more peaceful with each success.

[tannah]

Hey we all go out with friends and dont talk about religion, I reserve that for religious discussion forums. The fact that you cant handle another persons contribution, IE a person that believes different from you, in a religious discussion forum no less, only serves to confrim what a hate filled, arrogant, self centered in the extreme, egocentric, bullying biggot you are.

So how about you stfu for a while unless you have something of value to contribute instead of your sick, twisted, whiney, little girls blouse, hate speach.

Hey I don't get as sick as believing in a God that is gonna send somene to hell dude. I can handle anything fella dude mate brother. My replies are my handling of it here.

[tjohn]

We were told it is in the name of religion or at least it what we were/are led to believe. In reality it was/is all done in someone elses 'name'.

and btw it makes my very sick yea.I guess that when you say "in someone elses 'name'" you mean in mankind's name?

A region is defined by the doctrines and the teachers of religion. If the 'Holy' books were just seen as history or stories and not revered as 'the word of God' we would not have the Abrahamic religions with the dreadful results we see in the world, so yes in reality it is done in mankind's name. But I say burn the books, get rid of religion, because humans in general are often so stupid that they follow most everything they are told to believe.

[fallensoul]

I posted a thread to offer my views on Christianity, I think it speaks for itself. This debating in this thread made me do it, I will gladly await the replies of the blind following the blind.

[tjohn]

Tannah, I don't know who you are but you certainly have a way with words. ;)

[revolutionary_jam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm_MjEMH8Eo

[tjohn]

I posted a thread to offer my views on Christianity, I think it speaks for itself. This debating in this thread made me do it, I will gladly await the replies of the blind following the blind.The blind following the blind is a quote from the bible.... it's a bit like those Masonic symbols that are all over the place but most people do not see them for what they are! Religion is a joke against us! So humanity pays the price of being murdered and tortured.

[fallensoul]

The blind following the blind is a quote from the bible.... it's a bit like those Masonic symbols that are all over the place but most people do not see them!

Well where most sayings are from somewhere, but they can still be used in any context seen fit. Wouldn't you agree?

[tannah]

Tannah, I don't know who you are but you certainly have a way with words. ;)

:D Well, we all cringe at what we say sometimes don't we?! Only there are some that follow you around waiting to attack any personal flaw they can perceive. I'm happy to challenge the concepts, narrow-minded religions etc. If sometimes that has to include an odd fella/dude that is so wrapped up in it that they can't seperate themselves from their religion, it's not my problem. Online I seem to be like Geoffrey Boycott on speed!

[tjohn]

Well where most sayings are from somewhere, but they can still be used in any context seen fit. Wouldn't you agree?Yes I do agree with that. So in favour of humans being one family I say burn the religious books!

[suicidal_martyr]

I may be wrong but buddism doesnt seem to be fear based.

Hmm, never looked at Buddhism that way, as a religion, but more of a spiritual path, but that's my opinion. I'm referring to Christian, Islam, Catholic, etc. etc., just major organized religions which are fear based. I am aware that not everyone follows a religion out of fear but most do. Then again that's another opinion of mine.

[fallensoul]

Yes I do agree with that. So in favour of humans being one family I say burn the religious books!

Kiuas - The Decaying Doctrine

"Blessed are those who write their own scriptures, for they shall be kings of the new world."

Since the dawn of civilization
The so-called men of god
Have been lost in their obscurities
Their words would lead to sorrow
Commanding the weak to follow
A design for tyrants to control and enslave

We subdue not the voice inside us
We only bow down on our prey

Fire rains down from the heavens
Pouring down on those too weak to learn
On the ruins of the dead religion
Standing tall as the enslaving doctrines burn

"Blindly the sheep walk to their doom, for their leader came not to bring peace, but a sword."

To lead the flock astray
Each cult began their game
They created the face of evil and gave it a name
We take their game and squeeze it
Until it breaks in shards
And under the remains the truth will survive

We are the child who questions sincerely

And in our eyes a mirror framed

[suicidal_martyr]

I'll give some advice like someone on here gave me. Add "miracles" to your ignore list. Miracles is the biggest hypocrit I have seen on a forum in a long time. Seems every post I stumble on by miracles it is negative lol!! Yet he defends his bible to the core. What a Christian, or whatever you are. *cough* Troll *cough*

[fallensoul]

I'll give some advice like someone on here gave me. Add "miracles" to your ignore list. Miracles is the biggest hypocrit I have seen on a forum in a long time. Seems every post I stumble on by miracles it is negative lol!! Yet he defends his bible to the core. What a Christian, or whatever you are. *cough* Troll *cough*

Matthew 7 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

:D

[miracles]

I did use the words "perhaps" and "who knows?" so if it doesn't apply, there's no need to take offence. What offends me very much, is all the violence and bloodshed that has been committed in the name of religion. How do you feel about that?


May your God be with you. :D :) :eek:

Well what do you think I think about it? Same as you. If I murdered someone in your name would it be your fault? Im getting De Ja Vu now.

[miracles]

Matthew 7 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

:D

hah the hater of the biblical God is quoting scripture now.

[miracles]

I'll give some advice like someone on here gave me. Add "miracles" to your ignore list. Miracles is the biggest hypocrit I have seen on a forum in a long time. Seems every post I stumble on by miracles it is negative lol!! Yet he defends his bible to the core. What a Christian, or whatever you are. *cough* Troll *cough*

This guy loves me, he cant shut up about me, and he thinks he is ignoring me. HA! Man this place is comedy central. ;)

[pinkfreud]

let's prevent this thread from becoming a one on one battle zone shall we?


thanks.

[miracles]

let's prevent this thread from becoming a one on one battle zone shall we?


thanks.

Yes that would be rather nice. For start but a flea in that sucide martyre idiots ear.

[miracles]

Hey I don't get as sick as believing in a God that is gonna send somene to hell dude. I can handle anything fella dude mate brother. My replies are my handling of it here.

Handling it? Hah Yes you certainly do have a way words, can I have your autograph? You should start an "
Ask me anything thread" for your fans TBoner, fallen asshole and the twit who thinks he is ignoring me.

[fallensoul]

hah the hater of the biblical God is quoting scripture now.

There is good stuff in it, so why not ;)

[adbasque]

Matthew 7 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

:D

I certainly don't want to get involved in this, but it seems to me a bit ironic you quote something you don't believe in? lol

No offence just curious mate

[fallensoul]

I certainly don't want to get involved in this, but it seems to me a bit ironic you quote something you don't believe in? lol

No offence just curious mate

I don't believe their god or their religion, I have stated this many times before, there is wisdom and good things in the book. But it is not my truth and the way. I can quote things that fit, like in this context it does. It doesn't matter to me where it is or if I believe the message of the entire book. The quote as a standalone speaks for itself. I doubt its copyright of Christians or anything. Satan himself could use this quote when describing his enemies, and it would still be valid. This is my reasoning.

Make sense?

[stfd]

I don't believe their god or their religion, I have stated this many times before, there is wisdom and good things in the book. But it is not my truth and the way. I can quote things that fit, like in this context it does. It doesn't matter to me where it is or if I believe the message of the entire book. The quote as a standalone speaks for itself. I doubt its copyright of Christians or anything. Satan himself could use this quote when describing his enemies, and it would still be valid. This is my reasoning.

Make sense?

Hey, lets go to your thread we may have some 'peace and quiet' conversation there (maybe).

[adbasque]

I don't believe their god or their religion, I have stated this many times before, there is wisdom and good things in the book. But it is not my truth and the way. I can quote things that fit, like in this context it does. It doesn't matter to me where it is or if I believe the message of the entire book. The quote as a standalone speaks for itself. I doubt its copyright of Christians or anything. Satan himself could use this quote when describing his enemies, and it would still be valid. This is my reasoning.

Make sense?

I was just curious that's all, I wasn't judging you.
I guess it makes sense, unless that sentence was specific to certain group of people.

Peace

[fallensoul]

I didn't think you were judging me, I just like to convey my message thru, and be understood.

Peace to you too :)

[suicidal_martyr]

Non-believers can believe in parts of the bible.. Why does everything got to be so black and white? I don't fully believe in the bible because I know it's been tampered and altered numerous times. Now that doesn't mean I can't believe there are a few truths in it. I know there are as far as the morals and ethics go in the new testament. Some of the scriptures have good points in them. Everything doesn't have to be black and white. I have a variety of beliefs, no particular religion. I do believe in god, but not the ones that needed spaceships. The god I believe in is the whole existence as one. All of the consciousness combined. It's like theres a primary unit of awareness which is "god" and litte units of that awareness, which is of course us and all other life. But I do believe in certain hints of truth in the bible. Such as "knowing one by their fruits".

[fallensoul]

^ I concur

[tannah]

Handling it? Hah Yes you certainly do have a way words, can I have your autograph? You should start an "
Ask me anything thread" for your fans TBoner, fallen asshole and the twit who thinks he is ignoring me.

Awwwwwwwww..:) My friend has a dog a little like you in attitude. When they are petting him he's all tail wagging. As soon as someone else gets a little petting he's sulking his head off!

No, I insist, I need the autograph of the Miracle man, that makes Christianity such a turn off.

[suicidal_martyr]

Awwwwwwwww..:) My friend has a dog a little like you in attitude. When they are petting him he's all tail wagging. As soon as someone else gets a little petting he's sulking his head off!

No, I insist, I need the autograph of the Miracle man, that makes Christianity such a turn off.

Yeh miracles does make christianity look bad, in fact most, if not all christians act like he does anyway when someone doesn't believe in what they do. And miracles, you are ignored. I don't see why you think your not. The only messeges I see from you are what others are quoting. Unfortunetly I can't block what people quote so I have no choice but to see your venom. You filthy, inbred, serpent slash TROLL.

[miracles]

There is good stuff in it, so why not ;)

Hah, hypocrital in the extreme, no scratch that, lost.

[miracles]

Awwwwwwwww..:) My friend has a dog a little like you in attitude. When they are petting him he's all tail wagging. As soon as someone else gets a little petting he's sulking his head off!

No, I insist, I need the autograph of the Miracle man, that makes Christianity such a turn off.

Oh I seem to remember you where that littttle dog when I had you on ignore and people where agreeing with me. Please behave yourself Lassie.

[miracles]

Yeh miracles does make christianity look bad, in fact most, if not all christians act like he does anyway when someone doesn't believe in what they do. And miracles, you are ignored. I don't see why you think your not. The only messeges I see from you are what others are quoting. Unfortunetly I can't block what people quote so I have no choice but to see your venom. You filthy, inbred, serpent slash TROLL.

Im ignored??? :D In that case stop mentioning my name in every post. That would be gracioulsy appreciated.

[tjohn]

Non-believers can believe in parts of the bible.. Why does everything got to be so black and white? I don't fully believe in the bible because I know it's been tampered and altered numerous times. Now that doesn't mean I can't believe there are a few truths in it. I know there are as far as the morals and ethics go in the new testament. Some of the scriptures have good points in them. Everything doesn't have to be black and white. I have a variety of beliefs, no particular religion. I do believe in god, but not the ones that needed spaceships. The god I believe in is the whole existence as one. All of the consciousness combined. It's like theres a primary unit of awareness which is "god" and litte units of that awareness, which is of course us and all other life. But I do believe in certain hints of truth in the bible. Such as "knowing one by their fruits".Yes, unlike the religionists, you got it. :)

[tjohn]

Oh I seem to remember you where that littttle dog when I had you on ignore and people where agreeing with me. Please behave yourself Lassie.So what message do you bark? Love? No, hate for others who are not as brainwashed with religion as you are.

[miracles]

So what message do you bark? Love? No, hate for others who are not as brainwashed with religion as you are.
whatever trevor, your a bore.

[tjohn]

whatever trevor, your a bore.Is that the best answer you have? I really do think that you are being a bore.

[tannah]

Oh I seem to remember you where that littttle dog when I had you on ignore and people where agreeing with me. Please behave yourself Lassie.

It's been quite a while since I entertained a pissing contest with someone.:D
But I'll stick to the reasoned arguments about the flaws in this infallable book you seem to believe.

What's the name of this thread "religion is a deception". Yes it is. Religion is a sure sign that people are missing the point. Who have we got here at this forum to prove that? Well we got you.:)

And isn't it true that the argument in the bible, the personality of this supposed God in the OT, is so weak nowadays that ya gotta plead numerology as an authority? It's all about two little ducks dude, 22.

Jesus calls us brothers, and yet he's God. Jesus says we can achieve even more than he did, and yet he's God.

Sorry, I won't worship a God that kills babies. And as I believe in a Creator, I suggest that this God portrayed in the OT isn't the real God. It's a deception.

So much is it a deception that your only two options seem to be to degrade my charachter or parrot some texts from the deception itself.

Get this thread back on track and let's hear your argument about religion not being a deception. I say eternal hell for people is a deception because it promotes belief through fear. I also say that the Jesus that apparently came to save everyone shouldn't have such an ego that this salvation will only be valid if one chooses to believe him. I say stop with the pissing contest Jesus and either save us all or go the heck away and get your ego trips elsewhere.

Lies are generally twisted truths. By focusing on Jesus as the only Christ and God we are fooled into outward worship, war and making some elites rich yet again. And you're here promoting that Miracles. What's up with you?

[tjohn]

It's been quite a while since I entertained a pissing contest with someone.:D
But I'll stick to the reasoned arguments about the flaws in this infallable book you seem to believe.

What's the name of this thread "religion is a deception". Yes it is. Religion is a sure sign that people are missing the point. Who have we got here at this forum to prove that? Well we got you.:)

And isn't it true that the argument in the bible, the personality of this supposed God in the OT, is so weak nowadays that ya gotta plead numerology as an authority? It's all about two little ducks dude, 22.

Jesus calls us brothers, and yet he's God. Jesus says we can achieve even more than he did, and yet he's God.

Sorry, I won't worship a God that kills babies. And as I believe in a Creator, I suggest that this God portrayed in the OT isn't the real God. It's a deception.

So much is it a deception that your only two options seem to be to degrade my charachter or parrot some texts from the deception itself.

Get this thread back on track and let's hear your argument about religion not being a deception. I say eternal hell for people is a deception because it promotes belief through fear. I also say that the Jesus that apparently came to save everyone shouldn't have such an ego that this salvation will only be valid if one chooses to believe him. I say stop with the pissing contest Jesus and either save us all or go the heck away and get your ego trips elsewhere.

Lies are generally twisted truths. By focusing on Jesus as the only Christ and God we are fooled into outward worship, war and making some elites rich yet again. And you're here promoting that Miracles. What's up with you?Well said and I am eagerly awaiting his answer to you. ;)

If he wants to prove his point(s) he had better get it right - but, I do detect that he is unable and the reason is that Religion is a deception.

[miracles]

It's been quite a while since I entertained a pissing contest with someone.:D
But I'll stick to the reasoned arguments about the flaws in this infallable book you seem to believe.

What's the name of this thread "religion is a deception". Yes it is. Religion is a sure sign that people are missing the point. Who have we got here at this forum to prove that? Well we got you.:)

And isn't it true that the argument in the bible, the personality of this supposed God in the OT, is so weak nowadays that ya gotta plead numerology as an authority? It's all about two little ducks dude, 22.

Jesus calls us brothers, and yet he's God. Jesus says we can achieve even more than he did, and yet he's God.

Sorry, I won't worship a God that kills babies. And as I believe in a Creator, I suggest that this God portrayed in the OT isn't the real God. It's a deception.

So much is it a deception that your only two options seem to be to degrade my charachter or parrot some texts from the deception itself.

Get this thread back on track and let's hear your argument about religion not being a deception. I say eternal hell for people is a deception because it promotes belief through fear. I also say that the Jesus that apparently came to save everyone shouldn't have such an ego that this salvation will only be valid if one chooses to believe him. I say stop with the pissing contest Jesus and either save us all or go the heck away and get your ego trips elsewhere.

Lies are generally twisted truths. By focusing on Jesus as the only Christ and God we are fooled into outward worship, war and making some elites rich yet again. And you're here promoting that Miracles. What's up with you?


You have done nothing but start and continue a pissing contest, it's what your all about.

There is as much hope of you and I ever seeing eye to eye as a china man tring to convince an Irishman to become chinese.

Im out, your not on ignore but it's pointless contuing any direct contact to your posts, and you tjohn, and you Fallen and you MC. Does that mean you beat me, okay then winners. I'm sure you will enjoy your little love ins all the more with out me to challenge your tripe, play nicely with the other children in the sand pit now wont you byse bye.

[novymir]

Yes, religions are deceptions, tools of distraction and control. Looking externally, while the Spirit of The Creator is Within. We are ALL capable of Knowing "GOD". IT is within US, and We are within IT. Always.
"Religion Deception":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKDJE1zqphQ

"The Spirit and Judgement":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7oNilPIbBE

[fallensoul]

Hehehe, it is good tho, religion is like a psychology test for real humans, if you buy it, you will fail and be gone, if you do not, you will be presented with many, many great things later on.

Religion is like a trap, you get into it once, you are stuck, your mind has stuck, you are not getting any wiser, not learning anything new, you are yet another tit on the cash cow called religion, and you will be squeezed until your life has been drained out of you and in the end you will notice that there is nothing left of yourself anymore.

Miracles took that road, the road of the retarded martyr, martyr by choice, what an insane thing to do in this world.

[stfd]

Hehehe, it is good tho, religion is like a psychology test for real humans, if you buy it, you will fail and be gone, if you do not, you will be presented with many, many great things later on.

Religion is like a trap, you get into it once, you are stuck, your mind has stuck, you are not getting any wiser, not learning anything new, you are yet another tit on the cash cow called religion, and you will be squeezed until your life has been drained out of you and in the end you will notice that there is nothing left of yourself anymore.

Miracles took that road, the road of the retarded martyr, martyr by choice, what an insane thing to do in this world.

I gotta say , i feel nothing like that.
I feel as free as i can imagine... i don;t know why you gotta generalise but whatever.

[stfd]

Hehehe, it is good tho, religion is like a psychology test for real humans, if you buy it, you will fail and be gone, if you do not, you will be presented with many, many great things later on.

Religion is like a trap, you get into it once, you are stuck, your mind has stuck, you are not getting any wiser, not learning anything new, you are yet another tit on the cash cow called religion, and you will be squeezed until your life has been drained out of you and in the end you will notice that there is nothing left of yourself anymore.

Miracles took that road, the road of the retarded martyr, martyr by choice, what an insane thing to do in this world.

Oh and ( as you are a LOT more respectfull than others) can you pls explain what makes you determine that a Christian is sort of like a 'trapped soul' - as to me is EXACTLY the opposite.

but anyway , awaiting response.

[fallensoul]

stfd, as you know I have a high opinion of you since you are always willing to debate things in a civilized manner and I used a generalization because I was talking about the majority.

This is how I see the trap. Two paths (theres many but lets use these two as examples).

1.

You born into Christian family, you learn the bible through and through, you are now a hardcore Christian. Now your belief states that the truth is contained within the bible, everything outside it cannot be trusted in a sense. You have decided that it is the truth, the way and the life. Your life is now based around it. You will not seek truth outside your faith anymore. But then you are so arrogant that you actually decide that you have determined the truth of the world and it is right, thus you think you are infalliable, but that is never the case, NO ONE can know the real truth in and out ESPECIALLY if only thing they learned is the bible, do you for example find out how gravity works by reading the bible? Yet you believe in it. You have already decided what is. Now if you did research everything you could about religions, conspiracies, history, etc, basically the human knowledge in its whole. You might arrive into some greater truths that expand beyond the bible. But when you are set in your views, you won't ever find anything more by default. You are not evolving anymore, new discoveries will fly by you and you dismiss them as disinfo, deceit from Satan etc, as Miracles actively does. There is a reason that people have so much written knowledge, it is not all disinfo, it is to tell the story of your history. And even if it is disinfo it might still contain something that makes you realize more about your own faith. But fear keeps you locked inside this "bubble".

2.

Now if you do not see Christian faith and bible as the truth but as history and tales of mankind and a legacy from the older civilizations, then you will hopefully realize that the truth has been really lost in this world, and you will seek it from everywhere you can. Gradually you expand your knowledge on the world and its history. You will see a bigger picture of the history of humanity, you will connect dots you never knew existed and would never ever connected together, if not for your research.

Now there are Christians who study and seek the truth and nothing but the Truth outside and inside the bible and try to incorporate it into their faith. But those who most DI users call the sheep, disregard it all as irrelevant since it is not from the bible and Christian faith, "all we need is bible".

Going to church is just repeating stuff you learned in the past over and over again, but you never really find anything new EXCEPT you might get deeper understanding of the material within the Christian faith, but not outside it. Because you have decided everything else that which is not from your "god" is not relevant.

This is how I see it. I feel that even if you believe in the Christian faith, please study the world, to get better understanding of it. Most never do, I don't know about you tho.

No disrespect intended :)

And ofcourse you do not feel that way, it is my opinion and view, you got your own.

Also even if you think it is all from Satan and disinfo, there is a wise quote that even Christians should follow "Know thy enemy." How can you be aware of teh works of Satan and so on if you do not even know what they are. No matter what every human being should make their own studies into the human history and human knowledge.

[stfd]

stfd, as you know I have a high opinion of you since you are always willing to debate things in a civilized manner and I used a generalization because I was talking about the majority.

This is how I see the trap. Two paths (theres many but lets use these two as examples).

1.

You born into Christian family, you learn the bible through and through, you are now a hardcore Christian. Now your belief states that the truth is contained within the bible, everything outside it cannot be trusted in a sense. You have decided that it is the truth, the way and the life. Your life is now based around it. You will not seek truth outside your faith anymore. But then you are so arrogant that you actually decide that you have determined the truth of the world and it is right, thus you think you are infalliable, but that is never the case, NO ONE can know the real truth in and out ESPECIALLY if only thing they learned is the bible, do you for example find out how gravity works by reading the bible? Yet you believe in it. You have already decided what is. Now if you did research everything you could about religions, conspiracies, history, etc, basically the human knowledge in its whole. You might arrive into some greater truths that expand beyond the bible. But when you are set in your views, you won't ever find anything more by default. You are not evolving anymore, new discoveries will fly by you and you dismiss them as disinfo, deceit from Satan etc, as Miracles actively does. There is a reason that people have so much written knowledge, it is not all disinfo, it is to tell the story of your history. And even if it is disinfo it might still contain something that makes you realize more about your own faith. But fear keeps you locked inside this "bubble".

2.

Now if you do not see Christian faith and bible as the truth but as history of mankind and a legacy from the older civilizations, then you will hopefully realize that the truth has been really lost in this world, and you will seek it from everywhere you can. Gradually you expand your knowledge on the world and its history. You will see a bigger picture of the history of humanity, you will connect dots you never knew existed and would never ever connected together, if not for your research.

Now there are Christians who study and seek the truth and nothing but the Truth outside and inside the bible and try to incorporate it into their faith. But those who most DI users call the sheep, disregard it all as irrelevant since it is not from the bible and Christian faith, "all we need is bible".

Going to church is just repeating stuff you learned in the past over and over again, but you never really find anything new EXCEPT you might get deeper understanding of the material within the Christian faith, but not outside it. Because you have decided everything else that which is not from your "god" is not relevant.

This is how I see it. I feel that even if you believe in the Christian faith, please study the world, to get better understanding of it. Most never do, I don't know about you tho.

No disrespect intended :)

And ofcourse you do not feel that way, it is my opinion and view, you got your own.

Also even if you think it is all from Satan and disinfo, there is a wise quote that even Christians should follow "Know thy enemy." How can you be aware of teh works of Satan and so on if you do not even know what they are. No matter what every human being should make their own studies into the human history and human knowledge.


Firstly(as i gotta mention this especially on this forum) i greatly appreciate (for what's worth) the fact that you approach these kind of discussion from a reserved position.I believe that in order to get a point across one should not be offensive nor atempt to 'impose' stuff on another to whom he's discussing.

now to the subject.

I am born in a Christian family not only that but like all Orthodox i received the Baptism at 4 months of age.
While growing up the knowledge i received as a lil kid was a mixture of very basic religious based stories,parables,tales etc AND socially oriented folklore 'stuff' passed along from generation to generation by the 'old folk' (grandparents usually).Keep in mind that this was happening anywhere between 4-12 yrs of age.
The stuff put usually in 'tales' of whatever sort included mostly very very basic wisdom for example hinting things like : " dont make brother with the devil to cross the bridge" , "be brave and upright and keep the mind clear" , "do not do on other as you wouldnt like to be done on you" , "forgive and dont hold grudges or try to overcame those grudges in time" , " be patient and learn to listen" etc etc .All those 'things' were implemented , like i said in a mixture. This represented a 'foundation' .
I (gust givin myself as example for now-nor for show or anything, just trying to get a point across) read the Bible at about 15 or so and ummm i didnt 'really' get it - it seemed 'complicated' just as it seems today.HOWEVER , i was able to discover those valuable pieces of wisdom in it to pretty much match what i already knew from before.
And i admit i was fascinated how pieces seemed to be coming together.
There was no such thing as 'indoctrination' whatsoever - i swear. If i wanted so i could have not listened or i could have not read anything related or whatever(of course this is just my word against a million other voices who claim indoctrination actually is perpetrated - i'm only telling you how it was/is through my eyes thats all).

Later on i realized how 'stuff' passed on to me by the old folk was literally expanding (as a whole's event horizon :D) reinforced by stuff felt through the years , experiences acumulated and varous things felt.
ALL ALONG freedom of self was promoted with the regard for morality which had already been passed on by the old guys.
Now abviously i did screw up on many many ocasions :D
Sometimes i was aware that what im doing was bad sometimes i wasnt...

This beying said, i was '"taught" to not disregard anything to keep the eyes and ears open ,to try and think and feel.
To listen to all and any who might have something to say , and perhaps learn.As one cant learn while he's talking but only when he's listening.
However - the listening part abriptly ends when morality is 'trespassed'.
I was also "taught" to sand for basic moral principles which so happen to be all along promoted in the Bible.

"But then you are so arrogant that you actually decide that you have determined the truth of the world and it is right"
Arrogance is quite a sin, i am supposed to stay away from that.
How is it remotelly arrogant to actually LISTEN to someone which has something to say ?!


"Going to church is just repeating stuff you learned in the past over and over again, but you never really find anything new EXCEPT you might get deeper understanding of the material within the Christian faith, but not outside it. "

As a matter of fact is quite different :D
It is an understanding who's purpose is to 'touch' on things both on inside and outside.One based on morality, on love and freedom. Many would jump in and deliberatelly spill crap on my words but this is the truth and no other.
There is no freakin snake in front of the Altar that SUCKS life outa people. IN FACT i feel like im getting 'recharged' and not as im getting sucked of 'energy' or whatever.

It is all like so... i feel free , i feel no restrictions whatsoever as nothing restricts me. For an action there is a reaction , perhaps; and i Do have my own 'fate' in my own hands - to choose my own path the way i see fit.

And that's that.


Fin.

[fallensoul]

Interesting, no one ever told me how they see it and how it happened. You seem like a good person and the religion has obviously made you really kind and understanding person, so even if I do not agree with your faith it has no relevance to anything. This is how Christianity is imho supposed to effect the disciples.

You are not what I loathe in Christians, the prejudice, arrogance, ignorance and dismissal of anything that is outside their faith. Like I heard from a church going friend that some people there dont wanna be friends with certain people because they dont believe in Jesus. And the Crusades and persecution of people from other faiths is just terrible thing to exist.

That kinda thing, the side effects of religion. But you seem to keep an open mind and heart and obviously are not afraid to defend your beliefs. Unlike certain someones here who start insulting you when you challenge their position.

All the best for you, seriously, as you said, if you indeed can be a good person without the negative aspects of religion then it doesn't matter if you were right or wrong, because in the end of the day you can see that you lived as a honourable and good man. I hope more of the believing folk would share your qualitites :)

[stfd]

Interesting, no one ever told me how they see it and how it happened. You seem like a good person and the religion has obviously made you really kind and understanding person, so even if I do not agree with your faith it has no relevance to anything. This is how Christianity is imho supposed to effect the disciples.

You are not what I loathe in Christians, the prejudice, arrogance, ignorance and dismissal of anything that is outside their faith. Like I heard from a church going friend that some people there dont wanna be friends with certain people because they dont believe in Jesus. And the Crusades and persecution of people from other faiths is just terrible thing to exist.

That kinda thing, the side effects of religion. But you seem to keep an open mind and heart and obviously are not afraid to defend your beliefs. Unlike certain someones here who start insulting you when you challenge their position.

All the best for you, seriously, as you said, if you indeed can be a good person without the negative aspects of religion then it doesn't matter if you were right or wrong, because in the end of the day you can see that you lived as a honourable and good man. I hope more of the believing folk would share your qualitites :)


Thanks for the good words , i am not supposed to fall into pride and arrogance and feel good you said those good things to me :D
I will try to kinda sorta overlook them.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that to be Christian - by definition (or at leats the definition ive been given- is to be a good man - to try to be a good man actually , as you can never be good enough really.
And is the reason why we had been given a clear 'MODEL' which to follow in deeds and use as 'way' of living and aproaching things.

[fallensoul]

Hehehe, take some pride in being a good man, if nothing else :D

I agree with Jesus being a model for peaceful and free man, never thought anything else about it. My beef is with other things that have their beginning in religions :P

I feel good that we came to some kind of understanding where it is not necessary to argue about your faith really. Since you do not exhibit those really despicable qualities that many Christians have in them. And I seen your viewpoint pretty well imho so I have really no other questions. Another day lived is a another lesson learned :P

Damn I have again been on this forum for several hours, STARGAAAAAAAAAATE here I come :D

[stfd]

Hehehe, take some pride in being a good man, if nothing else :D

I agree with Jesus being a model for peaceful and free man, never thought anything else about it. My beef is with other things that have their beginning in religions :P

I feel good that we came to some kind of understanding where it is not necessary to argue about your faith really. Since you do not exhibit those really despicable qualities that many Christians have in them. And I seen your viewpoint pretty well imho so I have really no other questions. Another day lived is a another lesson learned :P

Damn I have again been on this forum for several hours, STARGAAAAAAAAAATE here I come :D



Oh and i forgot something.
I noticed all along how the emphasis was put towards 'following' and literally aspiring in having a lifestyle to resemble that of God/Jesus while man on earth.
No Pope or other guy mentioned - ever - .

Men are equal in birth and death.
Equal in scope and potential.
Equal in their innate rights.
Equally responsible and culpable in their choices.

Since men are so how can i possibly choose as 'model' one of them ?!

So that is WHY we use God/man - Jesus Christ as model and guiding principle in carying out our years.

"shoot for the moon, and even if you miss you will be among the stars"

[fallensoul]

Men are equal in birth and death.
Equal in scope and potential.
Equal in their innate rights.
Equally responsible and culpable in their choices.

Since men are so how can i possibly choose as 'model' one of them ?!

Words of wisdom my friend :) Only thing that is not "equal" about them is the way they choose to use these rights. Some make the choice to be less, some strive for maxium potential. Some choose to exploit others. And so on..

In my opinion we should all strive to achieve our greatest potential and simply coexist in peace. That way humans could as one species strive towards infinite possibilites. Now its system of others taking the freedom to choose to restrict others from that freedom in the name of personal gain, which is despicable.

[stfd]

Words of wisdom my friend :) Only thing that is not "equal" about them is the way they choose to use these rights. Some make the choice to be less, some strive for maxium potential. Some choose to exploit others. And so on..

In my opinion we should all strive to achieve our greatest potential and simply coexist in peace. That way humans could as one species strive towards infinite possibilites. Now its system of others taking the freedom to choose to restrict others from that freedom in the name of personal gain, which is despicable.

Despicable yes:(
And then the logical question comes:
How can we do that?
Can we even do it?

I think we can, but i don't think 'rebelion' is the way.
If one becomes 'at peace' with himself first then that may be the first step towards it.
I mean , if i am constantly restless,unfocused and steadly 'outa wack' in mind and soul how can i possibly go and even atempt to take on stuff greater than life ?

So technically what everyone needs (and is obviously my belief) is the following things:
A point of refference.
A moral scale of values - one which perpetuates and extends to the infinite.
A 'model' of achievement , which IS at the 'infinite end' of the scale i mentioned before.

Quite simplistic but as long as i am able to 'dumb down' stuff which can get overwhelming and end up with relativelly transparent 'chunks' then is all good and more importantly - stable.

[adbasque]

Despicable yes:(
And then the logical question comes:
How can we do that?
Can we even do it?


Sorry to burst in, I just want t add few things here if I may?

I think we can, but i don't think 'rebelion' is the way.
If one becomes 'at peace' with himself first then that may be the first step towards it.
I mean , if i am constantly restless,unfocused and steadly 'outa wack' in mind and soul how can i possibly go and even atempt to take on stuff greater than life ?
[/quote]
We first need to do whatever we want to see in the world on a personal level
find our true inner peace and true love, not the love on the edge of a tongue
the deep love that rises all the way from the heart.
Learn to be tolerant
Put aside our pride and ego
Look at others with the eye you would like them to look at you
Genuinely try and feel someone elses distress, no pretention.
Always try and combine wisdom with intelligence.
Sieve through the information we gather and reach a better knowledge
Most importantly be less arrogant, and consider other ideas from other venues.


So technically what everyone needs (and is obviously my belief) is the following things:
A point of refference.
A moral scale of values - one which perpetuates and extends to the infinite.
A 'model' of achievement , which IS at the 'infinite end' of the scale i mentioned before.

Quite simplistic but as long as i am able to 'dumb down' stuff which can get overwhelming and end up with relativelly transparent 'chunks' then is all good and more importantly - stable.

Pretty much yes.
I believe what we are witnessing here is a real battle of egos, once we can get rid of our egos, we can achieve a higher understanding of most things in our lives and our universe.
Patience
Tolerance and the two first steps imo

[stfd]

Sorry to burst in, I just want t add few things here if I may?

I think we can, but i don't think 'rebelion' is the way.
If one becomes 'at peace' with himself first then that may be the first step towards it.
I mean , if i am constantly restless,unfocused and steadly 'outa wack' in mind and soul how can i possibly go and even atempt to take on stuff greater than life ?

We first need to do whatever we want to see in the world on a personal level
find our true inner peace and true love, not the love on the edge of a tongue
the deep love that rises all the way from the heart.
Learn to be tolerant
Put aside our pride and ego
Look at others with the eye you would like them to look at you
Genuinely try and feel someone elses distress, no pretention.
Always try and combine wisdom with intelligence.
Sieve through the information we gather and reach a better knowledge
Most importantly be less arrogant, and consider other ideas from other venues.



Pretty much yes.
I believe what we are witnessing here is a real battle of egos, once we can get rid of our egos, we can achieve a higher understanding of most things in our lives and our universe.
Patience
Tolerance and the two first steps imo[/QUOTE]


and i agree.
entirelly.

And this is where i was trying to get.

THIS is what Christianity stand for. Exactly those things we both said here.
The FACT that some, many do otherwise, does not change what the moral set of values actually IS.
Is the point i tried to explain.
Some 'call' themselves Christian, carry Crosses, seem to do 'good stuff' in the view of other , they pose as something they AREN"T !
And in return the whole peoples which adhere to the Christian name get flamed and blamed...
So sad sad ... and i hope i could make sense and damn i wish it was different but were living hard times , when all is upside down ...

[adbasque]

and i agree.
entirelly.

And this is where i was trying to get.

THIS is what Christianity stand for. Exactly those things we both said here.
The FACT that some, many do otherwise, does not change what the moral set of values actually IS.
Is the point i tried to explain.
Some 'call' themselves Christian, carry Crosses, seem to do 'good stuff' in the view of other , they pose as something they AREN"T !
And in return the whole peoples which adhere to the Christian name get flamed and blamed...
So sad sad ... and i hope i could make sense and damn i wish it was different but were living hard times , when all is upside down ...

Unfortunately I have to agree with this.
What's more important, is these times were predicted in most religions I also know that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but nevertheless it has been predicted, that there will be a time, when truth will be rejected and falsehood will be adopted.


Yudhishthira said: How, O Bharata, should a person act who desires to adhere to virtue? O bull of Bharat’s race, possessed as thou art of learning, tell me this, questioned by me. Truth and falsehood exist, covering all the worlds. Which of these two O king, should a person adopt that is firm in virtue? What again is truth? What is falsehood? What again, is eternal virtue? On what occasions should a person tell the truth, and what occasions should he tell an untruth?

Source (http://www.hinduism.co.za/truth1.htm)

I am not a Hindu or anything but just to make a point.

[tjohn]

We first need to do whatever we want to see in the world on a personal level
find our true inner peace and true love, not the love on the edge of a tongue
the deep love that rises all the way from the heart.
Learn to be tolerant
Put aside our pride and ego
Look at others with the eye you would like them to look at you
Genuinely try and feel someone elses distress, no pretention.
Always try and combine wisdom with intelligence.
Sieve through the information we gather and reach a better knowledge
Most importantly be less arrogant, and consider other ideas from other venues.



Pretty much yes.
I believe what we are witnessing here is a real battle of egos, once we can get rid of our egos, we can achieve a higher understanding of most things in our lives and our universe.
Patience
Tolerance and the two first steps imo


and i agree.
entirelly.

And this is where i was trying to get.

THIS is what Christianity stand for. Exactly those things we both said here.
The FACT that some, many do otherwise, does not change what the moral set of values actually IS.
Is the point i tried to explain.
Some 'call' themselves Christian, carry Crosses, seem to do 'good stuff' in the view of other , they pose as something they AREN"T !
And in return the whole peoples which adhere to the Christian name get flamed and blamed...
So sad sad ... and i hope i could make sense and damn i wish it was different but were living hard times, when all is upside down ...

I am pleased that this thread has got onto the subject of love and understanding each other and it really does warm my heart. :)

However, because they have caused untold suffering and trouble in our world, I still think it would be wise to burn the religious books and abandon Religion. We can have a simple belief in God as a child does and we do not need the books or religious interpretations for that. We certainly do not need Religion (which is an interpretation of the books with doctrines and rules) all we need is to see each other as human family. You people are my family and although I often argue, in reality I love you all. We are born equal but then sadly, religion (and other identities) divide us.

[reality man]

The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become a religion - which although purporting to unite, actually divide people and cause much trouble for the world. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity.

A very young child can have a concept of God without the doctrines and rules of a religion. It is in fact the doctrines and rules that make a religion.

So what does religion tell us? Amongst many other things, religion tells us that we were 'born in sin' and/or that we are naturally inclined towards doing evil; that's what the doctrines tell us from the main Holy books. However, as can be seen by history, religious people have created untold hate and violence towards humanity (and even animals). Religion makes people self-righteous bigots and religion gives the impression that they are chosen by God and therefore they think they are 'better' than people of other religions, or non.

Religion says that the devil tempts us to do wrong, when in actual fact it is religion that has successfully caused people to do much wrong and not have compassion for other people! Ah, but, religious people are telling us that their 'perfect' god created us all! Blind fools is what religious people are and I don't hesitate to tell you that your god is not the God of all.


So I dream of the day when the 'Holy' books are put in a glass case in a museum protected by Lazers and all other 'Holy' books have been burned as relics of the past.


Couldn't have put it better myself tjohn.

I'm new to these forums - i'm glad I finally found people on my wavelength!

Religion is supposed to aid with the awakening of our true spiritual eternal nature, but all it appears to do is stifle that awakening with its silly rules which are designed to make us conform - ALWAYS CONFORM - to whatever the dictates of religion, society, government etc have to say. Quite rightly young children are in tune with their true selves until our blind society, government, religions etc kill that connection with the eternal nature.

To these blind systems of mental slavery the line from the song "The Wall" comes resounding loud and clear - "Your just another brick in the wall". Thats how these systems of conformity (slavery) view us all and thats the real purpose of religion - "there there nice little sheep, you do as you're told and dont rock the boat, because we're in control and we want to keep it that way - you be a nice little slave now until you breathe your last"

Religion has stamped our spiritual eternal truth into the dirt since time began - and so now mankind remains ignorant of its true origins because the world is too busy conforming to a list of rules which thier religions have given them.

shame, shame, shame!!!

[adbasque]

While at the same time, the very good sheeple was told, you have to leave "the religion", religion is your enemy, come and join our new religion to dumb you even further down, it's called no religion, we are telling you this because we care about you.

[tjohn]

Couldn't have put it better myself tjohn.

I'm new to these forums - i'm glad I finally found people on my wavelength!

Religion is supposed to aid with the awakening of our true spiritual eternal nature, but all it appears to do is stifle that awakening with its silly rules which are designed to make us conform - ALWAYS CONFORM - to whatever the dictates of religion, society, government etc have to say. Quite rightly young children are in tune with their true selves until our blind society, government, religions etc kill that connection with the eternal nature.

To these blind systems of mental slavery the line from the song "The Wall" comes resounding loud and clear - "Your just another brick in the wall". Thats how these systems of conformity (slavery) view us all and thats the real purpose of religion - "there there nice little sheep, you do as you're told and dont rock the boat, because we're in control and we want to keep it that way - you be a nice little slave now until you breathe your last"

Religion has stamped our spiritual eternal truth into the dirt since time began - and so now mankind remains ignorant of its true origins because the world is too busy conforming to a list of rules which thier religions have given them.

shame, shame, shame!!!
Welcome to the forum! :)

And well said!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgzDQcD5zFYwww.youtube.com/watch?v=jgzDQcD5zFY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgzDQcD5zFY)

[tjohn]

While at the same time, the very good sheeple was told, you have to leave "the religion", religion is your enemy, come and join our new religion to dumb you even further down, it's called no religion, we are telling you this because we care about you.Please don't start again, adbasque.

We were not born with a Religion and it's time to leave the sheeplefold. To do this all we need is Love. Are you now going to be saying that the Beetle song, "All you need is Love" is demonic?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTF_wJW7N4g

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJ2NKp23WU)

[adbasque]

Please don't start again, adbasque.

We were not born with religion and it's time to leave the sheeplefold.

We were not born with hundreds of things in our lives, but it didn't stop us doing them and practicing them, what sort of an argument is that?

I am not starting anything, I'll let you enjoy your thread don't you worry, good luck with no religion new religion

[stfd]

Yes, i am what and who i am and i will remain that.
I feel good that way, i feel stable and with a clear purpose.
A 'path' has been 'shown' to me and even though i fail at following it the way i should be - im trying.
And so , i will continue to try.
I will not 'burn' anything , if i'd do that, i'd loose it all i'd 'burn' my 'ticket' for the great concert along with it.
I am not about to do that.
I instead hope at getting a seat at it.

To me Christinity was/is 'shown' as THE way of doing/thinking/feeling exactly the opposite of what it is perpetrated and promoted it does on this frum for example.
Perhaps is me , perhaps is me + the environment i grew up in , perhaps it trully is so - and i believe is the last variant.

It does NOT represent a 'label' but it is who and what i am , is a determining atribute of myself. Without it i would no longer be myself, it instead, makes me be ME - and im very thankfull of that.

While it is increasingly difficult to whitstand the pressure and assaults, the tempting and deceit my intention is to remain so, to maintain this 'ME'; to keep my identity and NOT become 'something' else.

[adbasque]

Yes, i am what and who i am and i will remain that.
I feel good that way, i feel stable and with a clear purpose.
A 'path' has been 'shown' to me and even though i fail at following it the way i should be - im trying.
And so , i will continue to try.
I will not 'burn' anything , if i'd do that, i'd loose it all i'd 'burn' my 'ticket' for the great concert along with it.
I am not about to do that.
I instead hope at getting a seat at it.

To me Christinity was/is 'shown' as THE way of doing/thinking/feeling exactly the opposite of what it is perpetrated and promoted it does on this frum for example.
Perhaps is me , perhaps is me + the environment i grew up in , perhaps it trully is so - and i believe is the last variant.

It does NOT represent a 'label' but it is who and what i am , is a determining atribute of myself. Without it i would no longer be myself, it instead, makes me be ME - and im very thankfull of that.

While it is increasingly difficult to whitstand the pressure and assaults, the tempting and deceit my intention is to remain so, to maintain this 'ME'; to keep my identity and NOT become 'something' else.

What is weird, is the religion haters, always argue that we should all come together, unity, love, etc etc ...

but the sad truth is, that they are the ones who don't want any diversity, they are not actually looking for unity, what they want is you to be like them before they can open their arms and welcome you.

You can't be part of their "Unity" unless you follow their conditions.

You must give up everything you believe in, you must change, you must follow their way of life before they can consider you.
I think it's a joke, having said that I don't mean they are all like that, some do mean it, they want unity regardless of your belief.

Some are a total joke :D

[reality man]

Religion was the old way of trying to figure out what we really are. Some of those involved in those religions were decent people looking for answers - UNFORTUNATELY - the answers were withheld by those at the so called "top", and anyone who stubbornly continued searching out the truth were excommunicated, burned, tortured and belittled by the guys at the "top"! - once again, it was and still IS a case of, "dont you go rocking our little boat of power and control"!

That old way is now disintegrating before our very eyes - right across the world! - Thanks be God (God being the underlying source of all life - the matrix of energy from which everything has its existence)!

Some cling onto the old ways because they are afraid of being in what they percieve as being no mans land (a void). However, what is now being ushered in, is what has been commonly called "awakening". At the moment there is a tug of war almost - between the drowning old religions fighting to keep their control in place - and the new awakening which does not fight anything, but relys merely upon the individual asking themselves certain questions about the nature of their present reality.

By asking those deep questions about the nature of our present reality - the answers do come - one after the other - and then the truth dawns and we, bit by bit become free from the chains which kept us in a semi-comatose state of mental, intellectual and spiritual sleep!

This is no "NEW" religion - No beleif, philosophy or mode of thought is required for the awakening to take place - only first the questions - then the REALIZATIONS!!!

[stfd]

Religion was the old way of trying to figure out what we really are. Some of those involved in those religions were decent people looking for answers - UNFORTUNATELY - the answers were withheld by those at the so called "top", and anyone who stubbornly continued searching out the truth were excommunicated, burned, tortured and belittled by the guys at the "top"! - once again, it was and still IS a case of, "dont you go rocking our little boat of power and control"!

That old way is now disintegrating before our very eyes - right across the world! - Thanks be God (God being the underlying source of all life - the matrix of energy from which everything has its existence)!

Some cling onto the old ways because they are afraid of being in what they percieve as being no mans land (a void). However, what is now being ushered in, is what has been commonly called "awakening". At the moment there is a tug of war almost - between the drowning old religions fighting to keep their control in place - and the new awakening which does not fight anything, but relys merely upon the individual asking themselves certain questions about the nature of their present reality.

By asking those deep questions about the nature of our present reality - the answers do come - one after the other - and then the truth dawns and we, bit by bit become free from the chains which kept us in a semi-comatose state of mental, intellectual and spiritual sleep!

This is no "NEW" religion - No beleif, philosophy or mode of thought is required for the awakening to take place - only first the questions - then the REALIZATIONS!!!


Okay ... 'them on top' .
What or who is on top?
A man? or group of men?
An organization? o sort of a corporation maybe a sort of ngo ?

no.

This 'thing' does not have a form, and especially isnt a piramid shape. which has someone/something on top.
Such shape of an organized 'establishment' sugest great controll and ocultism.
And as Christianity is vehemently AGAINST all and any form of controll and all/any ocult it is very OBVIOUS that such 'type' of 'organization' is NOT what Christianity IS.

THEREFORE , one can conclude that if a sort of self-entitled Christian 'type' of 'organization' which adheres to things which perpetrate controll in any form , ocult in any form , decption in any form etc it is NOT of Christian character but a damned deceit.

And guess what, I am not the one to make a general judgement but i WILL judge the nature of things for myself. And that will be the end of it.

[reality man]

Okay ... 'them on top' .
What or who is on top?
A man? or group of men?
An organization? o sort of a corporation maybe a sort of ngo ?

no.

This 'thing' does not have a form, and especially isnt a piramid shape. which has someone/something on top.
Such shape of an organized 'establishment' sugest great controll and ocultism.
And as Christianity is vehemently AGAINST all and any form of controll and all/any ocult it is very OBVIOUS that such 'type' of 'organization' is NOT what Christianity IS.

THEREFORE , one can conclude that if a sort of self-entitled Christian 'type' of 'organization' which adheres to things which perpetrate controll in any form , ocult in any form , decption in any form etc it is NOT of Christian character but a damned deceit.

And guess what, I am not the one to make a general judgement but i WILL judge the nature of things for myself. And that will be the end of it.



I think we need only look at the Roman church for an example to see the kind of control/heirarchy i'm referring to (the council of cardinals etc).

True Christianity I think, was quite genuine to begin with - for example I think Jesus did exist and gave a genuinely helpful teaching to the world. But then those in power (the romans) highjacked Christianity and at the council of Nicea (to give one example) they polluted, watered down and twisted his message beyond all recognition. It was the old case of "If you cant beat them, join them" and then destroy what they are really all about!

We need to remember that the historical story of Jesus paints him as a radical - almost a troublemaker for the controlling authorities at that time - not the peaceful doormat we are presented with today! If he were around today I think he might go into many churches across the world with his stick a beat all around him like he apparently did in the temple at Jerusalem. He simple wouldn't recognise his own message.

So please dont feel like religion is being attacked or hated - it is merely slowly giving way for a new birth of Spirit into this world - and lets face it - the world needs that now more than ever!

[stfd]

I think we need only look at the Roman church for an example to see the kind of control/heirarchy i'm referring to (the council of cardinals etc).

True Christianity I think, was quite genuine to begin with - for example I think Jesus did exist and gave a genuinely helpful teaching to the world. But then those in power (the romans) highjacked Christianity and at the council of Nicea (to give one example) they polluted, watered down and twisted his message beyond all recognition. It was the old case of "If you cant beat them, join them" and then destroy what they are really all about!

We need to remember that the historical story of Jesus paints him as a radical - almost a troublemaker for the controlling authorities at that time - not the peaceful doormat we are presented with today! If he were around today I think he might go into many churches across the world with his stick a beat all around him like he apparently did in the temple at Jerusalem. He simple wouldn't recognise his own message.

So please dont feel like religion is being attacked or hated - it is merely slowly giving way for a new birth of Spirit into this world - and lets face it - the world needs that now more than ever!


The RC as a whole is not 'guided' by the Council of Cardinals but by a - MAN -the Pope.
And the main in this possition - they say - is without sin.
Now , that being said , why do you give them as example in a context where were talking things which have to do with the ' divine nature of things ' .
Your'e giving as example - people - simple people who sin just as you and i , fail just as you and i.

I would refrain from doing so...

[reality man]

The RC as a whole is not 'guided' by the Council of Cardinals but by a - MAN -the Pope.
And the main in this possition - they say - is without sin.
Now , that being said , why do you give them as example in a context where were talking things which have to do with the ' divine nature of things ' .
Your'e giving as example - people - simple people who sin just as you and i , fail just as you and i.

I would refrain from doing so...


Thankyou, but I was talking about how religion was meant to facilitate an actual experiental awakening to the divine nature of things - but has failed to do so - in fact, it has been an impediment before that realization - but then religions are made up of people...

... As you say, and you are quite right - People do fail (I don't use the word "sin") - and since organized religions are made up of a gathering of people - then those religions (just like the people) have failed!

They have failed to bring true awakened teachings to the world - they have failed to facilitate the awakening of our inner spiritual truth, and they have failed to bring the peace which thier founders spoke of - in fact they have been the main cause of much warring, division, hatred and hypocrisy in our world.



PS - the pope is only a figurehead (only a man) who has a body of advisors and needs their backing before he can exert any real change - superficial change, well yes, maybe - but his hands are tied when it comes to big change.

[tannah]

What is weird, is the religion haters, always argue that we should all come together, unity, love, etc etc ...

but the sad truth is, that they are the ones who don't want any diversity, they are not actually looking for unity, what they want is you to be like them before they can open their arms and welcome you.

You can't be part of their "Unity" unless you follow their conditions.

You must give up everything you believe in, you must change, you must follow their way of life before they can consider you.
I think it's a joke, having said that I don't mean they are all like that, some do mean it, they want unity regardless of your belief.

Some are a total joke :D

Adbasque your reasoning does contain problems. Your assuming that it isn't a wish to unify that has some people wishing to expose illusion. Nobody wants to force you to give up whatver you feel you want to believe in, but some people have every right to criticise what are obvious illusions about the nature of God.

It is the same with football hooliganism. In criticising them they may argue that I am not trying to take diversity into account and am not unifying. But it is my wish to unify the football experience that I would criticise hooliganism. Hooliganism is something people do, not necessarily what they
are. They can stop hooliganism and join the experience of whatching a football match peacefully.

Religion is divisive. None more so than the similarity between the Christian and Muslim God, bot claiming their book is the Word, and both having this murdeorus side toward unbelievers. It's obvious that this was a man made view of God. And it doesn't wash.

So I think the joke is on your self here, trying to wash over obvious illusions. It's interesting how Christians and Muslims here try really hard not to focus on the aspect of God that is being questioned. My main argument is that this aspect of God is not God, nor his supposed word to mankind. It doesn't mean that these books do not contain valid moral values. But I have seen the same morals in people that do not profess a religion.

[stfd]

Thankyou, but I was talking about how religion was meant to facilitate an actual experiental awakening to the divine nature of things - but has failed to do so - in fact, it has been an impediment before that realization - but then religions are made up of people...

... As you say, and you are quite right - People do fail (I don't use the word "sin") - and since organized religions are made up of a gathering of people - then those religions (just like the people) have failed!

They have failed to bring true awakened teachings to the world - they have failed to facilitate the awakening of our inner spiritual truth, and they have failed to bring the peace which thier founders spoke of - in fact they have been the main cause of much warring, division, hatred and hypocrisy in our world.



PS - the pope is only a figurehead (only a man) who has a body of advisors and needs their backing before he can exert any real change - superficial change, well yes, maybe - but his hands are tied when it comes to big change.



Whatever the case may be in regards to the Pope. whether he a figurehead or not, the simple fact that he too can sin - remains.

If i go by your judgement i could esily conclude that our whole existance as beings on this planet is a complete failure.
That is, because we, all the human beings on this planet are in essence a 'gahering' of people.
Therefore a gathering of people whether it be of 100 people , 10k or 100 billion simply 'fails' just because it is a gathering.

Now if say 100 people are 'gathered' and 'guided' through this 'life' by a way of morality and 'carved in stone principles' with the sole intent to help them into achieving what some call (including myself) salvation... WHERE is the 'failure' ?
The sole fact that 'bunch' of people which 'gather' or are 'gathered' ( by the fisherman of men) does NOT make it a 'failure' or /and does NOT make them(those people) fail.

Now, what CAN fail is the people themselves - individually - and so they do fail quite extensivelly. Only their personal failure does not alter the guiding priciples in any way - they remain - unchanged.

[reality man]

If i go by your judgement i could esily conclude that our whole existance as beings on this planet is a complete failure.
That is, because we, all the human beings on this planet are in essence a 'gahering' of people.
Therefore a gathering of people whether it be of 100 people , 10k or 100 billion simply 'fails' just because it is a gathering.

Now if say 100 people are 'gathered' and 'guided' through this 'life' by a way of morality and 'carved in stone principles' with the sole intent to help them into achieving what some call (including myself) salvation... WHERE is the 'failure' ?
The sole fact that 'bunch' of people which 'gather' or are 'gathered' ( by the fisherman of men) does NOT make it a 'failure' or /and does NOT make them(those people) fail.

Now, what CAN fail is the people themselves - individually - and so they do fail quite extensivelly. Only their personal failure does not alter the guiding priciples in any way - they remain - unchanged.


Look at the state of this world and the state of the people within it - do you call that success? War, depression, suicide, addications, greed etc, are all on the rise and religion does not help the world out of these problems. True spiritual realization though would help the world - we would then see "what is" and not what we "think" is - hence, we would awaken to our inner spiritual truth through direct realization in our own experience, here and now!

Do you think the people of this world are spiritualized through seeking "salvation"? Salvation (or whatever word fits) is really supposed to be a state of spiritualized awakening. The religions may promise "salvation", but what I see is failure on a galactic scale - there's not much sign of the "holy spirit" these days!

Religions (as gatherings of people with a moral code of principles), in thier attempts at achieving "salvation" have achieved nothing of use to the world at all - for the more religious a country is - The more extreme it is - hence why WAR has occurred by order of those countries who claim to be the most pious (I would use the word 'hypocritical').

Thier "morals" and "principles" are hiding colossal hypocrisy!

[stfd]

Look at the state of this world and the state of the people within it - do you call that success? War, depression, suicide, addications, greed etc, are all on the rise and religion does not help the world out of these problems. True spiritual realization though would help the world - we would then see "what is" and not what we "think" is - hence, we would awaken to our inner spiritual truth through direct realization in our own experience, here and now!

Do you think the people of this world are spiritualized through seeking "salvation"? Salvation (or whatever word fits) is really supposed to be a state of spiritualized awakening. The religions may promise "salvation", but what I see is failure on a galactic scale - there's not much sign of the "holy spirit" these days!

Religions (as gatherings of people with a moral code of principles), in thier attempts at achieving "salvation" have achieved nothing of use to the world at all - for the more religious a country is - The more extreme it is - hence why WAR has occurred by order of those countries who claim to be the most pious (I would use the word 'hypocritical').

Thier "morals" and "principles" are hiding colossal hypocrisy!

Religion does not promise 'salvation' is God who does.

Morals and principles hide nothing , it is in their nature to be transparent.

[adbasque]

Look at the state of this world and the state of the people within it - do you call that success? War, depression, suicide, addications, greed etc, are all on the rise and religion does not help the world out of these problems. True spiritual realization though would help the world - we would then see "what is" and not what we "think" is - hence, we would awaken to our inner spiritual truth through direct realization in our own experience, here and now!

Maybe because religion was suppressed?
When religion was at it's peak, people didn't take crap from their leaders, it's only when people started to be brainwashed to drop religion, that now we have all this mess.

when the Satanist were allowed into high positions, religion, could have stopped a lot of the social problems.

Religion did not accepte what banks dictate to us.
Won't allow casinos, promotion of sex, drugs, perversion and so on..
Religion was slowly pushed aside and disregarded by many many people, because they were lead to believe that every evil deed was caused by religion, while in fact it wasn't, evil deeds were caused by evil people, who hate religion and God in the first place, and then a lot of sheeple followed blindly believing the big lie.

[stfd]

Maybe because religion was suppressed?
When religion was at it's peak, people didn't take crap from their leaders, it's only when people started to be brainwashed to drop religion, that now we have all this mess.

when the Satanist were allowed into high positions, religion, could have stopped a lot of the social problems.

Religion did not accepte what banks dictate to us.
Won't allow casinos, promotion of sex, drugs, perversion and so on..
Religion was slowly pushed aside and disregarded by many many people, because they were lead to believe that every evil deed was caused by religion, while in fact it wasn't, evil deeds were caused by evil people, who hate religion and God in the first place, and then a lot of sheeple followed blindly believing the big lie.

:)

[fallensoul]

Maybe because religion was suppressed?
When religion was at it's peak, people didn't take crap from their leaders, it's only when people started to be brainwashed to drop religion, that now we have all this mess.

when the Satanist were allowed into high positions, religion, could have stopped a lot of the social problems.

Religion did not accepte what banks dictate to us.
Won't allow casinos, promotion of sex, drugs, perversion and so on..
Religion was slowly pushed aside and disregarded by many many people, because they were lead to believe that every evil deed was caused by religion, while in fact it wasn't, evil deeds were caused by evil people, who hate religion and God in the first place, and then a lot of sheeple followed blindly believing the big lie.

Sounds so sweet and nice but do you not see the underlying hypocrisy in your post? If religion indeed did dictate us, the ones who wouldn't agree would make this same post with some tweaks in the details.

You can not make everyone same, no matter how good the intentions behind it. Freedom knows no bounds, no labels, no one religion, it is just not real freedom if you try to enforce any kind of belief.

[tannah]

Maybe because religion was suppressed?
When religion was at it's peak, people didn't take crap from their leaders, it's only when people started to be brainwashed to drop religion, that now we have all this mess.

when the Satanist were allowed into high positions, religion, could have stopped a lot of the social problems.

Religion did not accepte what banks dictate to us.
Won't allow casinos, promotion of sex, drugs, perversion and so on..
Religion was slowly pushed aside and disregarded by many many people, because they were lead to believe that every evil deed was caused by religion, while in fact it wasn't, evil deeds were caused by evil people, who hate religion and God in the first place, and then a lot of sheeple followed blindly believing the big lie.

That is not the truth of it at all. When religion was at its peak it was the leader, and it spread untold horrors.

It's when the brainwashing didn't work anymore that a vacuum has slowly been created in this part of the world. People won't take on the label, and Reality Man is correct as to why. The vaccum will not be filled with these old religions again. Their time came and they didn't conduct themselves righteously.
These perversions you speak of are a result of that in some regards.

Spirituality has not died out however. It is re-shaping itself for this period in history. And it will emerge with a clearer image of God, and I think will eventually lead to a great period for mankind.

You are outright wrong to suggest people that critcise the old religions are haters at heart. Nor do they hate God. Because religions never defined a believable God in the first place.

[adbasque]

Sounds so sweet and nice but do you not see the underlying hypocrisy in your post? If religion indeed did dictate us, the ones who wouldn't agree would make this same post with some tweaks in the details.
I don't see any hypocrisy in my post.
Religion did not dictate us, religion was warning us, and teaching us, there's a slight difference.


You can not make everyone same, no matter how good the intentions behind it. Freedom knows no bounds, no labels, no one religion, it is just not real freedom if you try to enforce any kind of belief.

I wasn't trying to make everyone the same, if we are honest and look at how things have drastically changed for the worst since the majority of people left religion, started chasing an illusion, that they call dream, it's just a dream, the American dream, is nothing but a dream.

Because the creators of that dream have the rules and they dictated everything to the rest of us, if people truly held on to their religions these evil people won't have any powers.

Why do you think the constant attacks on religion?
That's what they've been doing for generations and they're still doing it.

They want to impose their own belief, whether you believe it yourself or not is irrelevant, what matters is they believe in Satan and destruction of mankind

[adbasque]

That is not the truth of it at all. When religion was at its peak it was the leader, and it spread untold horrors.



Religion did not spread horror, it did spread true love, evil people used it,
to cause horrors, why? Because most religious people did not know their religion, and the ones who hijacked it, used it to their advantage.

I mean can't you see that there's nothing in the religion that is evil, forget what people did in it's name, if you really want to be fair and honest about it.

Show me one thing in the "Religion" that is evil

[fallensoul]

Show me one thing in the "Religion" that is evil

Well it doesn't tolerate other faiths.. how about that?

[tannah]

Religion did not spread horror, it did spread true love, evil people used it,
to cause horrors, why? Because most religious people did not know their religion, and the ones who hijacked it, used it to their advantage.

I mean can't you see that there's nothing in the religion that is evil, forget what people did in it's name, if you really want to be fair and honest about it.

Show me one thing in the "Religion" that is evil

It's the same cop out every time isn't it? If I said those "unbelievers" that spread untold horrors were not true unbelievers, you'd be all over it.

So I'm not allowed to point to certain chapters of the Bible and Quaran? It's not about what people did in its name, it's in the so called words of God themselves. Apparently God did the horrors in its own name.

If attempting to understand God means one has to challenge old religious texts, then so be it. Truth really will prevail, and it's a matter of when not if.

What I understand about these books is very much held with a Bob Dylan song called "God on your side"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=tWc8koibMVg



Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

[adbasque]

Well it doesn't tolerate other faiths.. how about that?

Now hang on a minute, we are talking about evil, like crimes, wars, etc etc..
You are mixing things up, it doesn't tolerate other religions?

Where exactly in the religion or the book it says that?

What you're referring to my friend is what some people the same people I was pointing out as being evil, who created that division and hatred, not the religion itself.

We are here talking about religion not what people did with it.

I hope you can see the difference.

[adbasque]

It's the same cop out every time isn't it? If I said those "unbelievers" that spread untold horrors were not true unbelievers, you'd be all over it.

So I'm not allowed to point to certain chapters of the Bible and Quaran? It's not about what people did in its name, it's in the so called words of God themselves. Apparently God did the horrors in its own name.



First of all there's no cop out, what you like to call a cop out is actually the truth, I asked you if you can show me these horrors.
Where in these books God ordered the murder and the horrors?


Which brings us to our first question, where in this religion you see horrors?
I didn't ask for lyrics of a song written by Zimmerman,a known (Zionist)

They all preach peace and love, but we know what kind of love, unless you turn against God and his words you're not one of us, people like that who don't want unity and create the division, not religion itself.

Why does it bother you if I believe in God and his message? Why can't we unite?

[adbasque]

Just so you know who Bob Dylan really is:

Pro-Israel (http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jul02/dylan.htm)

Check out the link bellow.

This might help (http://ellissharp.blogspot.com/2005/09/bob-dylans-racist-song_25.html)

Bob Dylan is a pure Zionist, racist bastard, the amount of money he sends to support Israel is unbelievable, Nice man I am sure :)

[fallensoul]

Where in these books God ordered the murder and the horrors? You surely cannot be serious? He has commanded slaughters in the OT multiple times.. and raped entire humanity once (flood). Killed all the newborn in Egypt also? Are you like reading it and somehow not seeing these?

Your God apparently kills babies and gives orders to commit mass murder, so how is it not evil?

Exodus 10, verse 27, "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Then in verse 29; we read "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle"

(Deut. 28, verse 16) God is made to say: "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth."

(1 Samuel 6, verse 19) "And He smote the men of Bethsemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with great slaughter."

What is your explanation?

What kind of bible you been reading, the childrens version?

Also I would like to make a note that these passages and others were the initial motivation for the hardcore religious zealots to commit mass murder in the name of god against the infidels. Crusades anyone??

Early on the sixth day we attacked
the city on all sides and could do nothing against it. We were all surprised and alarmed. Then, at the approach of the hour at which our Lord Jesus Christ deigned to undergo the passion of the cross for us, our knights in one of the towers fought bravely, amongst them Duke Godfrey and his brother, Count Eustace.

One of our knights, Letholdus by name, climbed on to the wall of the city. When he reached the top, all the defenders of the city quickly fled along the walls and through the city. Our men followed and pursued them, killing and hacking, as far as the temple of Solomon, and there there was such a slaughter that our men were up to their ankles in the enemy's blood. . . .

The emir who commanded the tower of David surrendered to the Count [of St. Gilles] and opened the gate where pilgrims used to pay tribute. Entering the city, our pilgrims pursued and killed the Saracens up to the temple of Solomon. There the Saracens assembled and resisted fiercely all day, so that the whole temple flowed with their blood. At last the pagans were overcome and our men seized many men and women in the temple, killing them or keeping them alive as they saw fit. On the roof of the temple there was a great crowd of pagans of both sexes, to whom Tancred and Gaston de Beert gave their banners [to provide them with protection] . Then the crusaders scattered throughout the city, seizing gold and silver, horses and mules, and houses full of all sorts of goods. Afterwards our men went rejoicing and weeping for joy to adore the sepulchre of our Saviour Jesus and there discharged their debt to Him. . . .

On the eighth day after the capture of the city they elected Duke Godfrey prince of the city, to fight the pagans and protect the Christians. Also, on the day of St. Peter in chains, they elected as Patriarch a most wise and honourable man, named Arnulf. The city was captured by the Christians on Friday, July 15."


You can read more here -> http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/crusades.htm

[adbasque]

You surely cannot be serious? He has commanded slaughters in the OT multiple times.. and raped entire humanity once (flood). Killed all the newborn in Egypt also? Are you like reading it and somehow not seeing these?

Your God apparently kills babies and gives orders to commit mass murder, so how is it not evil?

So you took two words out of the OT, and used them, what about the whole story how it happen?

Now let's assume he is a Murderer God, how did he do it?
I believe every new born was killed by him, if he is not God how did he do it?

He is either God or he is not, do you agree?
Who the hell Faraho thinks he is? Why didn't he stop him then, if he was that powerful?

Are you going to fight him?
Can you fight him?

If you can't fight him that means he is your God, whether you agree with him or not, right?
And all of this was completely ripped out of it's context and you know it.

[fallensoul]

If you can't fight him that means he is your God, whether you agree with him or not, right?
And all of this was completely ripped out of it's context and you know it.

Correction, I cannot fight him because so far there has been no sign of him which leads me to conclude that he most probably does not exist. And why would I?

And well, it was taken out of context, but why the hell would he kill newborn no matter what the context, why punish innocent children, why not strike down the men or better yet Pharaoh himself? What kind of justice is it to take lives of innocent to punish the corrupt adults. There can not be any justification?

[tannah]

Just so you know who Bob Dylan really is:

Pro-Israel (http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jul02/dylan.htm)

Check out the link bellow.

This might help (http://ellissharp.blogspot.com/2005/09/bob-dylans-racist-song_25.html)

Bob Dylan is a pure Zionist, racist bastard, the amount of money he sends to support Israel is unbelievable, Nice man I am sure :)

Yeah, you focus on Bob Dylan and I'll focus on the lyrics of that song.

I don't expect you to come to your senses about what you think you worship.
Your eyes are firmly closed about it. I trust you are one of the nice believers of your particular religion.

Sure, let's unite. But don't ask me to shut up about books that promote God in a false light.

[tannah]

Correction, I cannot fight him because so far there has been no sign of him which leads me to conclude that he most probably does not exist.

And well, it was taken out of context, but why the hell would he kill newborn no matter what the context, why punish innocent children, why not strike down the men or better yet Pharaoh himself?

It's simple in my eyes. God simply isn't a person. It cannot ever open a mouth and say "I'm gonna kill you and your kids". People do that kind of thing. And in order to sleep at night they write books that say God did it.

[fallensoul]

It's simple in my eyes. God simply isn't a person. It cannot ever open a mouth and say "I'm gonna kill you and your kids". People do that kind of thing. And in order to sleep at night they write books that say God did it.

Probably is something like this. I also believe that if God did exist it would be like the sum of everything, containing everything in it, something beyond anything human. The collective whole.

[adbasque]

Yeah, you focus on Bob Dylan and I'll focus on the lyrics of that song.

I don't expect you to come to your senses about what you think you worship.
Your eyes are firmly closed about it. I trust you are one of the nice believers of your particular religion.

Sure, let's unite. But don't ask me to shut up about books that promote God in a false light.

You can't shut up because you want to attack me and you want a division, and you will only be happy when I become like you, you're not looking for unity, you see now who's in the intolerant of the other?

I said it before I don't care what you believe in, I don't attack your belief, you on the other hand can't keep away from attacking me and anyone who believes in a religion.

I just wanted to show you and others that you're the one who's intolerant, you preach what you can't deliver. :)

Yes Go ahead attack as much as you like, enjoy yourself, I have no desire in ranting.

[tannah]

You can't shut up because you want to attack me and you want a division, and you will only be happy when I become like you, you're not looking for unity, you see now who's in the intolerant of the other?

I said it before I don't care what you believe in, I don't attack your belief, you on the other hand can't keep away from attacking me and anyone who believes in a religion.

I just wanted to show you and others that you're the one who's intolerant, you preach what you can't deliver. :)

Yes Go ahead attack as much as you like, enjoy yourself, I have no desire in ranting.

You're wrong about my motivations in which case, and I can't apologize for your mistake in thinking that, nor am I interested in stopping the right I have to speak my mind. Your religion, as well as the Christian one (to name but two) sits atop a massive illusion. Bear that in mind and ponder it if you desire unity.

[adbasque]

You're wrong about my motivations in which case, and I can't apologize for your mistake in thinking that, nor am I interested in stopping the right I have to speak my mind. Your religion, as well as the Christian one (to name but two) sits atop a massive illusion. Bear that in mind and ponder it if you desire unity.

This sounds like a condition, then I don't wish to unite, you stay where you are and I'll do the same.


My religion and my belief is private and personal, don't find excuses with my religion, I am not attacking your belief, can you do the same? I doubt it.
So please don't talk to me about wanting unity, I don't know what is your motivation, I simply judge from what I read.

There's no illusion in (my) a religion, the illusion is what you're preaching here, I didn't preach my religion, I didn't impose my belief, you do.

I didn't put any conditions if you wanted unity, you're the one imposing your belief unless we are all like you, there wouldn't be unity.

How can we unite if you can't even show me a minimum respect?

We will leave it at that, no need for any further discussion.

[tannah]

This sounds like a condition, then I don't wish to unite, you stay where you are and I'll do the same.


My religion and my belief is private and personal, don't find excuses with my religion, I am not attacking your belief, can you do the same? I doubt it.
So please don't talk to me about wanting unity, I don't know what is your motivation, I simply judge from what I read.

There's no illusion in (my) a religion, the illusion is what you're preaching here, I didn't preach my religion, I didn't impose my belief, you do.

I didn't put any conditions if you wanted unity, you're the one imposing your belief unless we are all like you, there wouldn't be unity.

How can we unite if you can't even show me a minimum respect?

We will leave it at that, no need for any further discussion.

Well one last comment from me then. Firstly, I am showing you respect. I am also showing respect for the freedom of speech.

I get the feeling that people like yourself and Miracles will defend their religion till death. So here's an addendum to your beloved holy books

"And so it came to pass that the evil Tannah spoke against the faithful servant of the Lord, and persisted in tempting him to leave the ways of the Lord behind. And so the Lord smote Tannah, and his children and livestock, his asses and cows and also his beloved wife, as a sign of God's righteousness and that of his faithful servant"......I'm sure it would slot in nicely somewhere in the bible or quran.

This is what religious people do with unity. They piss on it and accuse others of being divisive. This type of God is the great justifier of self righteousness.
And in defending this God till death, and allowing no criticism of it, you do battle and you do rage and you do accuse the other side of blaspheming the true God. And I am fed up with it, and I am defending this planet from illusion in my own small way.

So go away if you want, practice your religion, read your scriptures, and avoid people like me.

[adbasque]

This is what religious people do with unity. They piss on it and accuse others of being divisive. This type of God is the great justifier of self righteousness.
And in defending this God till death, and allowing no criticism of it, you do battle and you do rage and you do accuse the other side of blaspheming the true God. And I am fed up with it, and I am defending this planet from illusion in my own small way.

So go away if you want, practice your religion, read your scriptures, and avoid people like me.

Nope, I am not accusing others I am accusing people who can't accept others like myself, we all have to ditch our faith and beliefs, or else we are not part of this unity, you're the one being divisive here not me.

Yes I will go away and leave you alone, what I do with my faith is nobody's business but mine, mine alone.
And if you can't accept me for who I am you're free to go your way and I will go my way.
No need for insults or attacks, it's that simple, you accusing us of wanting to impose our belief but it seems to me the foot is in the other shoe.

Now we will agree to disagree and we both go our seperate way.

[tannah]

Nope, I am not accusing others I am accusing people who can't accept others like myself, we all have to ditch our faith and beliefs, or else we are not part of this unity, you're the one being divisive here not me.

Yes I will go away and leave you alone, what I do with my faith is nobody's business but mine, mine alone.
And if you can't accept me for who I am you're free to go your way and I will go my way.
No need for insults or attacks, it's that simple, you accusing us of wanting to impose our belief but it seems to me the foot is in the other shoe.

Now we will agree to disagree and we both go our seperate way.

One last time dude, no one is picking on you. I have a right to call the quran and the bible a big illusion, that has people blindly believing, and it seems beyond bloody reproach.

Without having to resort to personal feelings, why don't we just focus on what is being critcised without the accusations of trying to cause division then? Coz you can't do that in my opinion. You will always have the excuse of being offended personally when someone picks on the absurdities in the quaran or bible.

And I don't apologize for doing that. To me it is your fault for identifying so strongly that you can't seperate objective critcism of your so called holy book from personal insult.

[miracles]

Please don't start again, adbasque.

We were not born with a Religion and it's time to leave the sheeplefold. To do this all we need is Love. Are you now going to be saying that the Beetle song, "All you need is Love" is demonic?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTF_wJW7N4g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTF_wJW7N4g)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJ2NKp23WU)

Religion and beliefs can not be discussed without arguement. Your the one that started again earlier bagging religious books as per.

And tannah, you do cause division becuase you are intolerant.

[tannah]

Religion and beliefs can not be discussed without arguement. Your the one that started again earlier bagging religious books as per.

And tannah, you do cause division becuase you are intolerant.

I was just going to say that religion and its scriptures were not written in order to unite people, but to divide them, and you just beat me to it Miracles. wll done.

I am intolerant of books that divide people and are based on illusion yes yes yes yes, very true Miracles, have a peanut brother.

The quaran and bible, especially, are at loggerheads, becuase they both claim theirs is the word of God. Want to talk about real intolerance Miracles, and how you presently personify it?

[adbasque]

One last time dude, no one is picking on you. I have a right to call the quran and the bible a big illusion, that has people blindly believing, and it seems beyond bloody reproach.

Yes Tannah you have the right to say what you want.


Without having to resort to personal feelings, why don't we just focus on what is being critcised without the accusations of trying to cause division then? Coz you can't do that in my opinion. You will always have the excuse of being offended personally when someone picks on the absurdities in the quaran or bible.
Just as much as your criticism is based on your personal views and your own conclusions, why can't you accept the fact that your lack of knowledge is deluding your views instead, at least consider the possibility of being wrong, that's what I call a rational approach to any fruitful debate, don't you think?


And I don't apologize for doing that. To me it is your fault for identifying so strongly that you can't seperate objective critcism of your so called holy book from personal insult.

They are not so called, they simply are holy books, not because you don't see them as holy it means they are not.

Don't forget there are billions of people who would disagree with you, and not just billions, I mean people who did real research, people with greater knowledge than yours.

I am not creating any division, now if you want to criticise the holy book(s) go right ahead, you're free to do so, I am not going to stop you.
But if you want to have any credibility, present your arguments based on real evidence, not taken out of context and hearsay.

So far what you said up until now, I have heard many many times, nothing new, but people failed to present real evidence.
And if you can't see the biggest manipulation behind it, there's and always was an agenda to suppress religion and God, if you really care to step away and take a look at the big picture ask yourself, why is religion being attacked.

For what purpose?

Everything that religion warns against or prohibits it's been promoted beyond any control.
Shoved down people's throats, do you think it's all happening by accident? or sheer coincidence?

But surely you must know better we are just a bunch of sheeple, and you're enlightened.

Either way I am not bothered, I am not going to get into any personal attacks, feel free to criticise and insult if you wish.

Take care:)

[tannah]

[QUOTE]Just as much as your criticism is based on your personal views and your own conclusions, why can't you accept the fact that your lack of knowledge is deluding your views instead, at least consider the possibility of being wrong, that's what I call a rational approach to any fruitful debate, don't you think?

I'm not putting forward an amazingly complicated thesis here. Yes, I've learnt things in life from being prepared to be wrong. But in this case I am simply pointing to the scriptures that people are quoting around here. The scriptures are doing the job of showing themselves to being rediculous. Are you seriosuly saying that Allah or Jehovah have done these actions portrayed in this holy books?


They are not so called, they simply are holy books, not because you don't see them as holy it means they are not.


I accept they are recognized as holy, even by billions and billions of people. How does that mean they really are true?


Don't forget there are billions of people who would disagree with you, and not just billions, I mean people who did real research, people with greater knowledge than yours.

But I'm not required to have much knowledge in this instance, because I'm not interested in anything else but what is before me, and I can read reasonably well.


I am not creating any division, now if you want to criticise the holy book(s) go right ahead, you're free to do so, I am not going to stop you.
But if you want to have any credibility, present your arguments based on real evidence, not taken out of context and hearsay.

How is pointing to scriptures that credit certain killings to the actions of God taking something out of context or hearsay? I will turn your question around and ask you to provide some credibility to this God, whom I consider a human fabrication and an abomination to Love, and the cause of much division throughout history.



So far what you said up until now, I have heard many many times, nothing new, but people failed to present real evidence.

Perhaps muslims and christians consistently fail to answer the "sensitive" questions posed to them. I must also say that you have replied with nothing new. So much so that I probably will throw the towel in soon, as I can see how fruitless it is to debate with obstinate denial.


And if you can't see the biggest manipulation behind it, there's and always was an agenda to suppress religion and God, if you really care to step away and take a look at the big picture ask yourself, why is religion being attacked.


On the one hand I would agree with you. But on the other hand you don't seem to acknowledge that part of the keeping away of people from God is the unbelievable image of IT in these so called holy books. Again it seems you can use your reasoning here as a way to not really ask yourself how you are prepared to believe in a God that can't live up to its own morals.


For what purpose?

Everything that religion warns against or prohibits it's been promoted beyond any control.
Shoved down people's throats, do you think it's all happening by accident? or sheer coincidence?

But here is the crux. You are not going to get Allah or Jehovah to sort any of this out! It's going to take real hard work from us. And we can draw from a far less divisive image of God than history has provided. It isn't a question of leaving your religion. It's a question of refinement. We have seen that forcing democracy on countries isn't the way forward. Likewise forcing the illimination of anyone's belief is counter productive. The way to liberation is through reason. So I don't accept the few coy comments made against me. I know where my heart is.


But surely you must know better we are just a bunch of sheeple, and you're enlightened.

Whatever I am I am more enlightened than the sarcastic comments coming my way here. I feel no shame about challenging illusion. It's because I want a fairer world, morally and with freedom and equality for all. I don't want to support BS like eternal damnation and Gods that killed babies and others in the past. I can't promise you I won't challenge that in the future should someone post that kind of crap.

Either way I am not bothered, I am not going to get into any personal attacks, feel free to criticise and insult if you wish.

That's another underhand comment. Why is it that I am insulting. Where in what I said is there an insult to you? Go to a mirror and utter " I AM NOT MY BELIEFS".

If you have the right to pass on your beliefs, so do I. When I talk to people I talk about how we can transcend what divides us by simply being love.
It comes with a responsibility, and I'm exercising it. If it threatens you in any way, I am sorry , but I would suggest it may be not becuase what I say is divisive or insulting, but that I am simply pointing out an image of God that is basically shameful nowadays.

If someone went around talking about my mother and father as murderers and killers of children, I would want to demand a proper explanation. How much more so when our spiritual father/mother is portrayed in this light?

We are always wise to deal with illusion and to be prepared to be wrong in our perceptions.

[adbasque]

I'm not putting forward an amazingly complicated thesis here. Yes, I've learnt things in life from being prepared to be wrong. But in this case I am simply pointing to the scriptures that people are quoting around here. The scriptures are doing the job of showing themselves to being rediculous. Are you seriosuly saying that Allah or Jehovah have done these actions portrayed in this holy books?


Well, let me try and explain a couple of things here, we can't elaborate without starting yet another debate which will probably end up in a rant, however certain things must be said.

I can only speak for myself and from my own experience on one level and perhaps generalise on another:

I was born as "Christian" up until I was 18 or so, then I started questioning in the exact same way you're questioning religion, I could even go further and acknowledge that I was wrong on a number of things. (just me remember)

So I started doing my proper research, travelled, checked other religions, I always knew there's a God, everything that's around us didn't just happen.
I am sure we agree on this.

Now, I was just like most people here, very sceptic about religion, especially Christianity, I didn't know much about Islam, except what I was fed by the main stream media, our "history" when I started looking into the Qu'ran and Islamic teachings, history and civilisation, I started to see the big lie that we've been fed here in the west.

A lot of things started to make more sense the more I dug, the more sense it made, (still just me), I am not imposing my own belief on anyone else.
Two things, I discovered (always knew) it was just a confirmation if you like, that Christianity has been heavily tampered with, and it was by the Jewish priests, the only problem was that it has been fundamentally changed forever, although I also found out that the original Bible is still hidden smewhere, Many people I have met have confirmed that it is hidden somewhere in the Vatican, both Muslims and Christians have confirmed it.

Ok some Christians refuse to accept it, that's fine, I am not going to argue with them, they are free to believe it. (I could be wrong)

To me Christianity or Islam are not an identity, I will follow the truth to wherever it is.
Now there are few things one has to consider, one is what we call the allegoric interpretation, literal interpretation, scientific and historic interpretation:
If we take some verses out, they could mean a completely different thing, it requires a lot of knowledge, dedication, time, etc.. in order to understand one small piece of the teachings, Ok some are straight forward.

In Islam for instance, you have the Surah (Chapters) and the verses, almost every verse has it's own history, it happened at a certain time for a certain reason, it could even be irrelevant to our time, although admittedly the Qu'ran is relevant at any time and any place.

The evidence is out there, take a look at the Qu'ran read it, compare with what happened, what's happening and what will eventually happen, you will see for yourself that it's not a joke, I am sure a lot of people who were disappointed by the Bible, are under the assumption that religion is BS.

In the Qu'ran it explains a lot of things about the Bible about what has happened.
Just before you ask the question about the Qu'ran, let me give you this.
The Qu'ran is coded in poetical system, which makes it impossible to to change it.
Not just poetical, but numerical and many other things are all linked, it's practically impossible for anyone to break it and change not even one single wod, but I can't explain all of these small details, as it would take a lot of time.

You need to look it up yourself, and one most important element, at the same time, the Qu'ran was written down, it was learnt by heart, passed on from father to son, and in the 4 corners of the world.

There's a huge amount of scientific evidence, again I am not going into little details.
You need to learn the history of the world and civilisation, believe me I was gob smacked what I have discvered in the last 25+ years, and I am still discovering as we speak.


I accept they are recognized as holy, even by billions and billions of people. How does that mean they really are true?

It's not because they are accepted by billions of people, it automatically certifies their authenticity or integrity, lot of people if not all at some point thought the planet was flat, and they were all wrong.

This is not what I am about, What I am trying to say, is amongst those billions I know of a lot scientists who discovered through within their fields of science that Islam is real, I can even give you some names, the list is endless, the scientists use it the Qu'ran to further their researches.

There are for example some ex Christian Ministers who converted to Islam.

Check out this Guy


Jerald Dirks (http://islamnewsroom.com/news-mainmenu-28/16-news.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyE6wXKc-RY

Please take a look at these videos when you have the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOZSrPF5GNo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQFXuZRLMTY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyE6wXKc-RY


But I'm not required to have much knowledge in this instance, because I'm not interested in anything else but what is before me, and I can read reasonably well.

You admit you don't have a big knowledge in relation to religions,
then see if something else can make more sense to you.
What if what is actually before your eyes is deceiving?
Don't you think it's a closing of the mind, to say that you're not interested?
Check Dr Jerald Dirks video and listen to what he has to say :)




How is pointing to scriptures that credit certain killings to the actions of God taking something out of context or hearsay? I will turn your question around and ask you to provide some credibility to this God, whom I consider a human fabrication and an abomination to Love, and the cause of much division throughout history.

This is because, things have been changed to sound horrible, God is in fact love, he loves everyone of his creatures, even the ones who disobeyed his commands, not only they disobeyed him, but they vowed to mislead others and drive them away from the path of truth.

It's all documented maybe you find it hard to believe that some people are truly evil, and they have literally sold their souls to the master of deception.

Consider the above possibilities even if it's for a short while, try and temporarily put your personal pride and ego to one side, by the way remember all of us have this pride.
sometime we need to swallow it for our own good.




Perhaps muslims and christians consistently fail to answer the "sensitive" questions posed to them. I must also say that you have replied with nothing new. So much so that I probably will throw the towel in soon, as I can see how fruitless it is to debate with obstinate denial.

Maybe because the questions are posed to those who haven't got much knowledge, and the media "elite" has done a fantastic job to keep people away from religion, from God, and this is IMO the hardest area to convince anyone he might be wrong, because everything "he" was fed, he'll believe it's his own conclusions.

Remember I was not born into this, I was not fed this since my childhood, I went out in search for it.
Sometimes you ask me to explain to you something that took me a life time to find.
It's not as easy as it may seem.





On the one hand I would agree with you. But on the other hand you don't seem to acknowledge that part of the keeping away of people from God is the unbelievable image of IT in these so called holy books. Again it seems you can use your reasoning here as a way to not really ask yourself how you are prepared to believe in a God that can't live up to its own morals.

As I said before I don't believe in these Books based purely on one book or the actual understanding of it, I know that the Bible has been changed so manu times, so many versions, so many interpretations, it has been tampered with.

I wasn't convinced by it if I am honest otherwise I'll still be Christian, wouldn't I?






But here is the crux. You are not going to get Allah or Jehovah to sort any of this out! It's going to take real hard work from us. And we can draw from a far less divisive image of God than history has provided. It isn't a question of leaving your religion. It's a question of refinement. We have seen that forcing democracy on countries isn't the way forward. Likewise forcing the illimination of anyone's belief is counter productive. The way to liberation is through reason. So I don't accept the few coy comments made against me. I know where my heart is.

I have to agree with you here, you're absolutely right on 3 counts.


1) We can't expect Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh to sort out our problems, he said it himself, God helps those who help themselves, God doesn't like lazy people, laziness are the grounds exploited and used by the Devil.

2) Yes we know history has lied to us all the way, too many lies if you ask me.

3) You cannot force anyone to adhere to your belief, in Islam (Qu'ran) it is stated that religion is peace and not force.



Whatever I am I am more enlightened than the sarcastic comments coming my way here. I feel no shame about challenging illusion. It's because I want a fairer world, morally and with freedom and equality for all. I don't want to support BS like eternal damnation and Gods that killed babies and others in the past. I can't promise you I won't challenge that in the future should someone post that kind of crap.

It was meant as sarcasm at all, you obviously believe you're more enlightened otherwise you wouldn't be arguing, would you?
I am sure you want a better world like most of us, do you think I want a world of domination?

I have said this several times now, while people were enjoying life in the west, the Muslims were warning of what was coming, and has arrived, now it took someone like David Icke and some others to bring to the attention of millions, what was all the time known by the Muslims, I am not saying that every Muslim knew, a lot of them knew something is not right, but don't go and imagine that every Muslim knows the truth or even knows his religion as he should, no way..
My presence here on this forum has to do with fighting the illuminati, the Elite etc.. I came here for that purpose, to find people with a common purpose, we bury our differences and fight together, side by side.

If I wanted to discuss religion believe me there are 100s of forums out there.


That's another underhand comment. Why is it that I am insulting. Where in what I said is there an insult to you? Go to a mirror and utter " I AM NOT MY BELIEFS".


Because by judging people, simple because f their beliefs, it's an insult, when you criticise without any evidence, without looking at the full picture
it can be perceived as an insult, although personally I don't really care, because I know who I am what I am anyone who wants to insult me, please be my guest.


If you have the right to pass on your beliefs, so do I. When I talk to people I talk about how we can transcend what divides us by simply being love.
It comes with a responsibility, and I'm exercising it. If it threatens you in any way, I am sorry , but I would suggest it may be not becuase what I say is divisive or insulting, but that I am simply pointing out an image of God that is basically shameful nowadays.

If someone went around talking about my mother and father as murderers and killers of children, I would want to demand a proper explanation. How much more so when our spiritual father/mother is portrayed in this light?

We are always wise to deal with illusion and to be prepared to be wrong in our perceptions.

That's just the point, I am not here to pass on my belief, as a matter of fact I will leave this thread, like I said I am not here to spread my belief, I only defended what I know it's true, this is hardly passing my belief to others.

Not even defending it, I am trying to explain what I believe most people haven't understood, unless you spend a lot of your time digging out the truth, you wouldn't really understand the profound wisdom and spirituality of the religion, and that is where the Elite's plan comes in, they stop you at the front gate, because they know if you dig any further you will eventually discver the truth.

We've all been mislead, but thank God we have a brain so we use it and determine the truth no matter how deep it's been buried.
Finally, remember God (Allah) Jehovah whatever name you would like to give him, Love you and you believe that, which means someone somewhere has lied and continues to lie.

It's your duty to find out that truth.

After this I will quit this thread
No hard feeling and I hope we all find peace and true love.

Let me just add this, remember every belief system has been infiltrated and created division from the inside.

All they have to do is understand a specific belief and then they'll try and destroyed from the inside, whether it's a religion or not.

They are experts in division, they can create, so no matter what belief you're on, they will infiltrate it and create a division.

Take care.

[fallensoul]

^Glad to see that someone actually did research their religion.

You admit you don't have a big knowledge in relation to religions,
then see if something else can make more sense to you.
What if what is actually before your eyes is deceiving?
Don't you think it's a closing of the mind, to say that you're not interested?

Hey I would like to ask you this one thing since you seem to know your own faith in and out. Have you researched history, mythology, ancient civilizations, ancient religions and stuff? Because I have researched the Quran a bit and read about the alleged miracles it contains, like certain words repeated x times which is allegedly some meaningful number. And the book containing some wisdom well before it's time. These things gave me some interest in the book. BUT I found out that civilazations before Quran had discovered much of the same things and much more. And the religions and teachings of many cultures before Qu'ran just don't always agree with it.

Actually if you take the whole of human history it always never agrees completely with the holy books, so how could they be the truth and the way if they clash with known history so much?

[solarwindspirit]

Nope, I am not accusing others I am accusing people who can't accept others like myself, we all have to ditch our faith and beliefs, or else we are not part of this unity, you're the one being divisive here not me.

Yes I will go away and leave you alone, what I do with my faith is nobody's business but mine, mine alone.
And if you can't accept me for who I am you're free to go your way and I will go my way.
No need for insults or attacks, it's that simple, you accusing us of wanting to impose our belief but it seems to me the foot is in the other shoe.

Now we will agree to disagree and we both go our seperate way.

religion is a deception. . .why all the fuse about religion these days. . .
does it mean that someone is loosing at his own game or sumptin?

who in the hell is someone to tell you what to read write say speak hear or believe. . .or see. . .god d@m it! closed minded idiots

ghandi. . .all roads lead to ONE. . .

[miracles]

religion is a deception. . .why all the fuse about religion these days. . .
does it mean that someone is loosing at his own game or sumptin?

who in the hell is someone to tell you what to read write say speak hear or believe. . .or see. . .god d@m it! closed minded idiots

ghandi. . .all roads lead to ONE. . .

Good post up until ghandi, if he was right I wouldnt be arguing. :)

[miracles]

Well, let me try and explain a couple of things here, we can't elaborate without starting yet another debate which will probably end up in a rant, however certain things must be said.[snip]

Addy, your wasting to much of your valuable life arguing with certain people in here. :)

[fallensoul]

Addy, your wasting to much of your valuable life arguing with certain people in here.

Can I resist it.... Wha.. I CAN!

nvm :D

[reality man]

Many times in my past I have openly questioned certain dubious belief systems as a way of trying to have a stimulating conversation in a group situation. At times I pointed out the obvious flaws within certain religions, even quoting people like Jesus and Buddha to back up a point. :cool:

For one small example - Jesus is reported as saying, not to go to the houses of worship to pray like the hypocrites do, rather go to your room, close the door and let no one know what you are doing. - However, what we have today are houses of worship everywhere - some elaborately decorated. :confused:

Jesus is also reported as saying that the kingdom of God is within you. So I would ask what people thought this meant - they would disagree (yes, disagree with Jesus) and still keep the childish picture of heaven being a place that you go to when you are dead - a place that is white, has pearly gates and a judgemental "god" sitting holding your wrongs against you. They would even argue that Jesus didn't say that heaven is within you at all - "it must be a misprint" even though it was there in every version of the bible. :confused:

As I brought these subjects of discussion up - At all times when I pointed out these things, it was immediately made out that I was "attacking" or "insulting" peoples beleifs! Many would get really angry with me and begin insulting me - even though I was only pointing out things that thier so called lord and master said! :rolleyes:

My only conclusion is, that thier lord and master is not "Jesus" per se - but thier lord and master is to be subservient to an organized form of religion for the comfort, sense of community and for the childish promises of a heavenly hereafter where all of the "good" guys hang out and watch the "bad" guys get thier cumuppence down in "hell". :eek:

Religion gives them a sense that they are right and you are wrong and one day it will be proved when you are burnt as they get to overindulge at the "heavenly" feast. :eek:


My oh my - when will people ever wake up? :(

[fallensoul]

^ Good post, agreed 100%

[tannah]

This is not what I am about, What I am trying to say, is amongst those billions I know of a lot scientists who discovered through within their fields of science that Islam is real, I can even give you some names, the list is endless, the scientists use it the Qu'ran to further their researches.


I see , science can confirm Allah exists right? I highly doubt that.



This is because, things have been changed to sound horrible, God is in fact love, he loves everyone of his creatures, even the ones who disobeyed his commands, not only they disobeyed him, but they vowed to mislead others and drive them away from the path of truth.

It's all documented maybe you find it hard to believe that some people are truly evil, and they have literally sold their souls to the master of deception.

The more I reason the closer I get to some form of Buddhism personally.
There are levels of spiritual awareness, and the journey there is about conquering attachments. Deception is born from a lack of spiritual awareness, not that these levels of awareness contain evil. Evil is simply illusion and non awareness of these spiritual dimensions.

The deception is in creating these forms and then worshiping them, giving them a speaking part in the drama, and using them to justify our attachments.




Consider the above possibilities even if it's for a short while, try and temporarily put your personal pride and ego to one side, by the way remember all of us have this pride.
sometime we need to swallow it for our own good.

I've considered the "possibilities" for years and years. It's you that has introduced the element of my not being knowledgeable. And I replied that I don't need to be knowledgeable to say I reject a God that does stuff as portrayed in bibles and qurans. I can use my knowledge to give specifics, but what use is that if it is quite clear one can use elementary reason to dismiss the image of God that early man has imagined?



Remember I was not born into this, I was not fed this since my childhood, I went out in search for it.
Sometimes you ask me to explain to you something that took me a life time to find.
It's not as easy as it may seem.

Well, people are not born heroin addicts. I've recently seen how religion is more highly addictive than heroin.



As I said before I don't believe in these Books based purely on one book or the actual understanding of it, I know that the Bible has been changed so manu times, so many versions, so many interpretations, it has been tampered with.

Yeah, I'm sure the christians here agree.



Because by judging people, simple because f their beliefs, it's an insult, when you criticise without any evidence, without looking at the full picture
it can be perceived as an insult, although personally I don't really care, because I know who I am what I am anyone who wants to insult me, please be my guest.


That's ok, I am not trying to insult you, but I do take issue with books like the quran and bible, for example. There's a saying in science "one element of pooo makes the whole thing pooo".

I've reached my own position not by being ignorant of these books, but by becoming pretty aware of them.

You are right about the system trying to block humans from their true inner nature. The control is through politics, education and religion. This cocktail of illusion is what one has to liberate themselves from.

[tjohn]

I see , science can confirm Allah exists right? I highly doubt that.

The more I reason the closer I get to some form of Buddhism personally.

There are levels of spiritual awareness, and the journey there is about conquering attachments. Deception is born from a lack of spiritual awareness, not that these levels of awareness contain evil. Evil is simply illusion and non awareness of these spiritual dimensions.

The deception is in creating these forms and then worshiping them, giving them a speaking part in the drama, and using them to justify our attachments.

I've considered the "possibilities" for years and years. It's you that has introduced the element of my not being knowledgeable. And I replied that I don't need to be knowledgeable to say I reject a God that does stuff as portrayed in bibles and qurans. I can use my knowledge to give specifics, but what use is that if it is quite clear one can use elementary reason to dismiss the image of God that early man has imagined?

Well, people are not born heroin addicts. I've recently seen how religion is more highly addictive than heroin.

Yeah, I'm sure the christians here agree.


That's ok, I am not trying to insult you, but I do take issue with books like the quran and bible, for example. There's a saying in science "one element of pooo makes the whole thing pooo".

I've reached my own position not by being ignorant of these books, but by becoming pretty aware of them.

You are right about the system trying to block humans from their true inner nature. The control is through politics, education and religion. This cocktail of illusion is what one has to liberate themselves from.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1214961&postcount=135

[veritasvoice]

I've got to disagree that all religion is based on deception and evil, or designed to spread hatred and distrust.

I've just got back from attending church myself, where the pastor talked about the following:

~ striving for truth and justice
~ the importance of personal connections instead of being purely connected through technology
~ the value of a supportive community
~ the importance of standing up against evil
~ the importance of individual rights

So is ALL religion an NWO tool? I don't think so.

I do think we have mainstream religion in the same way that we have mainstream media and science; and that is connected to the political structure of the NWO in order to manipulate people. The NWO has also put started to put together its nascent one-world religion in order to co-opt people; to do that, they will have to discredit and destroy all existing religions.

You'd have to be crazy to associate a local community church with the likes of Rick Warren, for example; and I've seen more local churches do more to actually HELP their communities and support people than any government ever has.

[fallensoul]

^Good post, there are some Christians and religious people who can see beyond their indoctrination and realize the real value of their faith. No one really said anything else. It really depends on so many factors, your pastor could be Christian and still believe in those things you said, Christianity and the stuff mentioned in your post are not mutually inexclusive, no one said that, I hope :)

[tannah]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1214961&postcount=135

Love that song.:) Tell it straight Pink Floyd!

[miracles]

I've got to disagree that all religion is based on deception and evil, or designed to spread hatred and distrust.

I've just got back from attending church myself, where the pastor talked about the following:

~ striving for truth and justice
~ the importance of personal connections instead of being purely connected through technology
~ the value of a supportive community
~ the importance of standing up against evil
~ the importance of individual rights

So is ALL religion an NWO tool? I don't think so.

I do think we have mainstream religion in the same way that we have mainstream media and science; and that is connected to the political structure of the NWO in order to manipulate people. The NWO has also put started to put together its nascent one-world religion in order to co-opt people; to do that, they will have to discredit and destroy all existing religions.

You'd have to be crazy to associate a local community church with the likes of Rick Warren, for example; and I've seen more local churches do more to actually HELP their communities and support people than any government ever has.

YAY, great post. :)

[miracles]

Many times in my past I have openly questioned certain dubious belief systems as a way of trying to have a stimulating conversation in a group situation. At times I pointed out the obvious flaws within certain religions, even quoting people like Jesus and Buddha to back up a point. :cool:

For one small example - Jesus is reported as saying, not to go to the houses of worship to pray like the hypocrites do, rather go to your room, close the door and let no one know what you are doing. - However, what we have today are houses of worship everywhere - some elaborately decorated. :confused:

Jesus is also reported as saying that the kingdom of God is within you. So I would ask what people thought this meant - they would disagree (yes, disagree with Jesus) and still keep the childish picture of heaven being a place that you go to when you are dead - a place that is white, has pearly gates and a judgemental "god" sitting holding your wrongs against you. They would even argue that Jesus didn't say that heaven is within you at all - "it must be a misprint" even though it was there in every version of the bible. :confused:

As I brought these subjects of discussion up - At all times when I pointed out these things, it was immediately made out that I was "attacking" or "insulting" peoples beleifs! Many would get really angry with me and begin insulting me - even though I was only pointing out things that thier so called lord and master said! :rolleyes:

My only conclusion is, that thier lord and master is not "Jesus" per se - but thier lord and master is to be subservient to an organized form of religion for the comfort, sense of community and for the childish promises of a heavenly hereafter where all of the "good" guys hang out and watch the "bad" guys get thier cumuppence down in "hell". :eek:

Religion gives them a sense that they are right and you are wrong and one day it will be proved when you are burnt as they get to overindulge at the "heavenly" feast. :eek:


My oh my - when will people ever wake up? :(

Mat 4:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=4&v=17&t=ASV#17)From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

One does not have the kingdom of heaven within them until they have followed this commandement, repent, confess believe and be baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. People like your good self seem to think you can pluck scriptures out of religious books to back up what ever hair brained concept comes into your mind, without knowing every thing about said books. Doctrines (IE religions) are not built and based on one scripture alone. When Jesus said these words "the kingdom of God is within you". He was speaking to believers, not the heathen unbelievers.

This is the Christian religion, Christians know what the christian religion is. Im not saying you have to believe it, but if you make your decisions based on a little bit of knowledge thats up to you, but when you start preaching it publically, people who know what the faith is all about can see that you dont know what you are talking about.

No offense intended, just stating the facts,

The gospel that Jesus preached was the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, this gospel must be believed and received, it can not be belived and recieved without a preacher preaching it first (at least in the times of Christ, we have the bible now) If the kingdome of God was within you from day one, Jesus would not have needed to come and preach repentance and neither would John the Baptists and all the apostles and all the deciples who all preached the same gospel.

[seanx]

Originally Posted by veritasvoice
I've got to disagree that all religion is based on deception and evil, or designed
to spread hatred and distrust.

I've just got back from attending church myself, where the pastor talked about the following:

~ striving for truth and justice
~ the importance of personal connections instead of being purely connected through technology
~ the value of a supportive community
~ the importance of standing up against evil
~ the importance of individual rights

So is ALL religion an NWO tool? I don't think so.

I do think we have mainstream religion in the same way that we have mainstream media and science; and that is connected to the political structure of the NWO in order to manipulate people. The NWO has also put started to put together its nascent one-world religion in order to co-opt people; to do that, they will have to discredit and destroy all existing religions.

You'd have to be crazy to associate a local community church with the likes of Rick Warren, for example; and I've seen more local churches do more to actually HELP their communities and support people than any government ever has.

The masons do the same trick.

On the surface lots of good charity work and helping the coummunitiy,
while the top levelscontinue to manipulate human thoughts and consciousness
keeping it on the frequency the Elite want.

All these man-made religions do the very same.

Next Sunday, ask your pastor what will happen to you if you tell
his ' God' and Jesus to fuck off?

Will you be damned for eternity? And then ask him why does God
who is ALL love need such obedience?

[miracles]

The masons do the same trick.

On the surface lots of good charity work and helping the coummunitiy,
while the top levelscontinue to manipulate human thoughts and consciousness
keeping it on the frequency the Elite want.

All these man-made religions do the very same.

Next Sunday, ask your pastor what will happen to you if you tell
his ' God' and Jesus to fuck off?

Will you be damned for eternity? And then ask him why does God
who is ALL love need such obedience?

Why dont you turn up to a church and ask that question since its you who wants the answer. You might learn something, Hey it's okay to ask these questions by the way, I dont have a problem with it.

[seanx]

Why dont you turn up to a church and ask that question since its you who wants the answer. You might learn something, Hey it's okay to ask these questions by the way, I dont have a problem with it.

I was brought up in your man -made religion. So I know the
answer.

You WON'T answer the question because it reveals the truth
about the deception you have fallen for.

The fact that your religion is man-made, based on Fear
and has nothing- ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the true
nature of God.

[miracles]

I was brought up in your man -made religion. So I know the
answer.

You WON'T answer the question because it reveals the truth
about the deception you have fallen for.

The fact that your religion is man-made, based on Fear
and has nothing- ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the true
nature of God.

I think if you really want to understand the TRUE nature of God you will find it is in perfect alignment with the bible, does that mean it is in perfect alignment with the way you where brought up and in perfect alignment with what church you went too or any church for that matter? I dont know, but I highly doubt it.

If you tell my God and Jesus to fuck off, you will most likely find; nothing happens. But when you stand before Him on judgmenet day your mouth will be stopped. So you may aswell have said what you want to say before that happens, and you are evidently free to do so.

[adbasque]

The masons do the same trick.

On the surface lots of good charity work and helping the coummunitiy,
while the top levelscontinue to manipulate human thoughts and consciousness
keeping it on the frequency the Elite want.

All these man-made religions do the very same.

Next Sunday, ask your pastor what will happen to you if you tell
his ' God' and Jesus to fuck off?

Will you be damned for eternity? And then ask him why does God
who is ALL love need such obedience?

Hi Seanx, I think that the Elite can divide people with almost anything, not necessarily with religion, the Elite have proven over the centuries to have successfully divided, people without the mention of religion.

Look at for instance what Britain did in India, what it did with native Americans, they were divided with other means.

It is not the religions fault if people were too dumb to fall for the division tactics, I think we all here to "fight" and expose the Elite unite and fight side by side instead of creating any animosity between, Believers, Non-Belivers, etc.. we are all slaves in their eyes, they couldn't give a rats ass if you ditch religion or follow it.

So instead of us bickering each other, I really think we all should step back take a deep breath and focus on the real issue.

If you can cast your mind back the church was fighting the Illuminatis centuries back, if they have created it, why would the church fight them?

Yes the Vatican is the most corrupt and richest institution in the world, but that doesn't mean the religion itself, it's the people within it that are corrupt.

But you can't possibly put every true Christian, Muslim, Jew in the same basket, some people really and truly believe in God and they fear God, which means they can't be that rotten, you will find the majority of people want to live in peace.

For instance take a look at how destruction started if I may:

If religion was in fact created by the Elite to control us, then tell me why is it.
Note when I say illegal I mean prhibited by the religion
Illegal to gamble (Prohibited)
The Elite legalised gambling and promoting it.

Why is it illegal to tax people the way we are taxed?
Why is it illegal to use interests and considered illegally earned money, stealing

What is it in the religion that makes you think it's for control?
They started wars without religion being involved, many times so why is religion a tool of control?

Yes in every religion they created radicals, people were paid to do horrible things and claim it to be part of that religion, but in reality it's nowhere to be found in the religion.

These same religion haters evil people, I mean the Elite, have used religion for their own agenda, they used it against us.

If people did know their religion, they wouldn't fall for the scam, it's people's fault not the religion.

The Highway code is there to be followed and respected by all the road users, it's not the highway code's fault if others don't respect it and drive like lunatics and put their lives and the lives of others in jeopardy is it?

I hear people use this argument religion is a tool for control and division blah blah, but nobody actually came up with a valid argument.

Unless someone can come up with solid arguments where he can point out.
First the control how it is played?
Second where in the religion itself it tolerates these evil deeds
Three Why is religion against everything that the Elite and the NWO stands for.

Religion is about, freedom, liberty for all, love, caring, charity etc..
I know you say the Freemasons do it too, but where did their religion come from?
Who's their Prophet, when was it created?
Even amongst the Freemason I am certain that there are a lot of people amongst them who haven't a clue what's going on at higher level, they are used.
Who do you meet in a Church, Synagogue, Mosque?
Only average people like you without any agenda, they come to listen to lectures and worship, what they do with that information is down to the individual, besides you don't have to join a Church or Mosque, you can worship your lord without leaving your house.

People gather in these places to help one another and support the community, how else are we going to unite Seanx?

You know that you and I have agreed on a lot of things, I think we need at least try and look at this from different angles.

You can see that religion is being attacked from every angle, why do you think they are doing this?
If they really created it, they would be supporting it, not showing it as evil, the truth is they want it wiped out, so they can impose and introduce their own belief, Satanism.

Remember these people do worship Satan, whether you believe in it or not is irrelevant what matters is they believe in Satan and they will destroy everything that is against Satan's plans, namely religion and religious people, and you people are helping them, sorry to be blunt but without knowing mate you're helping these bastards.

Even David Icke got it completely wrong on this, because this is part of the big manipulation.
You don't have to adhere to these religions it's not what I am saying, but accept others, and let's unite..
Peace everybody :)

[tannah]

I was brought up in your man -made religion. So I know the
answer.

You WON'T answer the question because it reveals the truth
about the deception you have fallen for.

The fact that your religion is man-made, based on Fear
and has nothing- ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the true
nature of God.

That's how I see it, as I hope you may have guessed. The problem with who your are arguing with is that you can't have a positive conversation with him. if things don't go his way Miracles will just put you on ignore. Until then he has his bible quotes on the ready. Nice circular logic, but don't ask him about the babies.:D What I see in Miracles is thousands of years of atrocities done in the name of his god. He has the perfect personality for it, and is totally not interested in any other views except his own and the bible's.
You may have noticed how the more moderate christians have either left or are silent.

[tjohn]

Love that song.:) Tell it straight Pink Floyd!So do I yet at the same time it's heartbreaking.

[tjohn]

I've got to disagree that all religion is based on deception and evil, or designed to spread hatred and distrust.

I've just got back from attending church myself, where the pastor talked about the following:

~ striving for truth and justice
~ the importance of personal connections instead of being purely connected through technology
~ the value of a supportive community
~ the importance of standing up against evil
~ the importance of individual rightsThose might be some of his very good opinions but it is not Religion.

So is ALL religion an NWO tool? I don't think so.

I do think we have mainstream religion in the same way that we have mainstream media and science; and that is connected to the political structure of the NWO in order to manipulate people. The NWO has also put started to put together its nascent one-world religion in order to co-opt people; to do that, they will have to discredit and destroy all existing religions.

You'd have to be crazy to associate a local community church with the likes of Rick Warren, for example; and I've seen more local churches do more to actually HELP their communities and support people than any government ever has.Christians supporting people? Lets start a little charity to help people in the name of our religion to make us look good. :rolleyes:

So where was the big outcry from all the millions and millions of Christians in this country, when they were bombing Afghanistan and Iraq with 'Shock and Awe'? For the most part all Christians did was pray and that didn't do much good, now did it. And where is the outcry now, as people are still being murdered and the tiny bodies of babies are being blown to bits because of government lies?

I went on many antiwar protests and I can assure you that by far the majority of people there were communists and atheists! How come? Where were all the millions of Christians? In church praying, some of them even supporting the wars!

Not that the protests did much good but at least some people tried to do something. The churches are powerful organisations and we could have had at least 50 million protesting, but no, and the clergy are saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers" so let us pray for peace in the world!"

[stfd]

Those might be some of his very good opinions but it is not Religion.

Christians supporting people? Lets start a little charity to help people in the name of our religion to make us look good. :rolleyes:

So where was the big outcry from all the millions and millions of Christians in this country, when they were bombing Afghanistan and Iraq with 'Shock and Awe'? For the most part all Christians did was pray and that didn't do much good, now did it. And where is the outcry now, as people are still being murdered and the tiny bodies of babies are being blown to bits because of government lies?

I went on many antiwar protests and I can assure you that by far the majority of people there were communists and atheists! How come? Where were all the millions of Christians? In church praying, some of them even supporting the wars!

Not that the protests did much good but at least some people tried to do something. The churches are powerful organisations and we could have had at least 50 million protesting, but no, and the clergy are saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers" so let us pray for peace in the world!"

Maybe, just - maybe - those people you mentioned AREN'T actually Christians.
Perhaps only they want to believe they are.

[manxboz]

Those might be some of his very good opinions but it is not Religion.

Christians supporting people? Lets start a little charity to help people in the name of our religion to make us look good. :rolleyes:

So where was the big outcry from all the millions and millions of Christians in this country, when they were bombing Afghanistan and Iraq with 'Shock and Awe'? For the most part all Christians did was pray and that didn't do much good, now did it. And where is the outcry now, as people are still being murdered and the tiny bodies of babies are being blown to bits because of government lies?

I went on many antiwar protests and I can assure you that by far the majority of people there were communists and atheists! How come? Where were all the millions of Christians? In church praying, some of them even supporting the wars!

Not that the protests did much good but at least some people tried to do something. The churches are powerful organisations and we could have had at least 50 million protesting, but no, and the clergy are saying, "Blessed are the peacemakers" so let us pray for peace in the world!"

I know many communists and atheists who support the war, you'll find people all across world from many different religions who support war and those the don't. Doesn't mean they represent that Religion.

[adbasque]

I went on many antiwar protests and I can assure you that by far the majority of people there were communists and atheists! How come? Where were all the millions of Christians? In church praying, some of them even supporting the wars!

So you have checked every single one of them? you asked every single person there and got a feed back that they were either communists or atheists but nobody was a believer?:rolleyes:

Some of them support the war true, like some communists, and lots of Atheists such as the Rothschilds, at least you have this in common with them.

They hate religion, they hate God and they hate anyone who follows God and his religion.

You have a lot in common with the Rothschilds, except perhaps you being against the war and them are the actual instigators, other than that you have a lot in common.

So all the communists were out there to protest against the war and not one Christian? How about Muslims, were they in the Protest or were they in Mosques praying too?

Oh what would the world do without the Atheists and Communists lol

:)

[stfd]

So you have checked every single one of them? you asked every single person there and got a feed back that they were either communists or atheists but nobody was a believer?:rolleyes:

Some of them support the war true, like some communists, and lots of Atheists such as the Rothschilds, at least you have this in common with them.

They hate religion, they hate God and they hate anyone who follows God and his religion.

You have a lot in common with the Rothschilds, except perhaps you being against the war and them are the actual instigators, other than that you have a lot in common.

So all the communists were out there to protest against the war and not one Christian? How about Muslims, were they in the Protest or were they in Mosques praying too?

Oh what would the world do without the Atheists and Communists lol

:)


Actually i think the Rotschilds are quite religious.
Only umm they worship mr Luci.
But hey is still worshiping ' something '.
Makes me freakin sick.

[adbasque]

Actually i think the Rotschilds are quite religious.
Only umm they worship mr Luci.
But hey is still worshiping ' something '.
Makes me freakin sick.

Well I wouldn't really call this a religion, they are Satanists, anti religion and anti God. I know it makes me sick too

[reality man]

Mat 4:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=4&v=17&t=ASV#17)From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

One does not have the kingdom of heaven within them until they have followed this commandement, repent, confess believe and be baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. People like your good self seem to think you can pluck scriptures out of religious books to back up what ever hair brained concept comes into your mind, without knowing every thing about said books. Doctrines (IE religions) are not built and based on one scripture alone. When Jesus said these words "the kingdom of God is within you". He was speaking to believers, not the heathen unbelievers.

This is the Christian religion, Christians know what the christian religion is. Im not saying you have to believe it, but if you make your decisions based on a little bit of knowledge thats up to you, but when you start preaching it publically, people who know what the faith is all about can see that you dont know what you are talking about.

No offense intended, just stating the facts,

The gospel that Jesus preached was the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, this gospel must be believed and received, it can not be belived and recieved without a preacher preaching it first (at least in the times of Christ, we have the bible now) If the kingdome of God was within you from day one, Jesus would not have needed to come and preach repentance and neither would John the Baptists and all the apostles and all the deciples who all preached the same gospel.



Hi miracles,

The "harebrained" remark about the kingdom of heaven being within you was not plucked from my mind - it was "apparently" plucked from Jesus' mind.

By the way - he did not say "the kingdom of heaven is within you, when you have followed this commandement, repented, confessed, believed and been baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit." - No - He merely stated that the kingdom of heaven was within you, in that particular passage.

And my friend - Jesus was speaking to what you term "heathen unbelievers". Perhaps you cannot remember him saying that "sick people do not need a doctor but only those who are unwell". In fact - it was the religious people of his day whom he had the most trouble with - and is it any wonder when they can still today get so angry whenever thier "beleifs" are called into question?

The kingdom of heaven is most surely within us from day one, hence why he also said, that "in order to enter the kingdom of God we must first become like little children". Obviously this is because small children are already in line with the state called Heaven, until of course religion instructs them otherwise.

Furthermore - My postings are not made with a little bit of knowledge - I have been studying various religions and the Bible for most of my life - if you want me to get into a pointless bible quoting match - well - we can do that, but like I said it would be pointless!

Religion is the main cause of division in this world and until it disintegrates from the face of the earth - there will NEVER be world peace!

[stfd]

"Religion is the main cause of division in this world and until it disintegrates from the face of the earth - there will NEVER be world peace! " <-- just one of the very popular globalist/nwo lines...

[reality man]

I was brought up in your man -made religion. So I know the
answer.

You WON'T answer the question because it reveals the truth
about the deception you have fallen for.

The fact that your religion is man-made, based on Fear
and has nothing- ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the true
nature of God.

Here Here - I second that!

[reality man]

That's how I see it, as I hope you may have guessed. The problem with who your are arguing with is that you can't have a positive conversation with him. if things don't go his way Miracles will just put you on ignore. Until then he has his bible quotes on the ready. Nice circular logic, but don't ask him about the babies.:D What I see in Miracles is thousands of years of atrocities done in the name of his god. He has the perfect personality for it, and is totally not interested in any other views except his own and the bible's.
You may have noticed how the more moderate christians have either left or are silent.


I second this too!

[reality man]

"Religion is the main cause of division in this world and until it disintegrates from the face of the earth - there will NEVER be world peace! " <-- just one of the very popular globalist/nwo lines...

Well stfd - at least the NWO are right about something then?

Actually the NWO are behind most of the religions - did you not hear a few weeks back, the pope was calling for a NWO?

Maybe you should check it out!

[adbasque]

Well stfd - at least the NWO are right about something then?

Actually the NWO are behind most of the religions - did you not hear a few weeks back, the pope was calling for a NWO?

Maybe you should check it out!

So you judge all religions and religious people to after what that idiot says or does?

Nobody gives a s** about the Pope, we know the Vatican is the most corrupt institution, the richest, it is totally and utterly been owned and controlled by the Elite.

Is that what you call religion? Oh dear oh dear no wonder what most people haven't got a clue what religion really is.

The Pope and his mates are nothing but a ruthless bunch of killers.

They couldn't give a tosh about a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Black, a White, Green, they couldn't give a rat's **** about anyone, they are there to control and steal people's money and wealth.

[stfd]

Well stfd - at least the NWO are right about something then?

Actually the NWO are behind most of the religions - did you not hear a few weeks back, the pope was calling for a NWO?

Maybe you should check it out!

the Pope is a man, he is not God.

Men are bound to screw up.

[reality man]

So you judge all religions and religious people to after what that idiot says or does?

Nobody gives a s** about the Pope, we know the Vatican is the most corrupt institution, the richest, it is totally and utterly been owned and controlled by the Elite.

Is that what you call religion? Oh dear oh dear no wonder what most people haven't got a clue what religion really is.

The Pope and his mates are nothing but a ruthless bunch of killers.

They couldn't give a tosh about a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Black, a White, Green, they couldn't give a rat's **** about anyone, they are there to control and steal people's money and wealth.

I sprang from the RC religion and I eventually turned my back upon it - and true - its probably becasue of their actions that I turned my back on all organized religions - I now view all organized religion with distaste.

It's organized religion I have found to be corrupt - it always starts out with the best of intentions - and then some control hungry guys try to take over and get into the limelight - where they are always the teacher and you are always the student.

I believe in equality - not the pastor/priest doing all the talking and telling us what is the case. I particularly like the line from the bible, where Jesus tells people to pray in thier room where no one sees them - not in the houses of worship.

I don't use the word "religion" (it puts a bad taste in my mouth). I use the word spirituality, because to me, everything Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed etc taught was really meant to facilitate the awakening of spirit within ones own experience.

Organized religion seems to step on the toes of that awakening!

Maybe there are some religious groups out there where this awakening is indeed happening - its just that I have encountered many groups - and none of them fall away from the same steretypical pattern ... the guy at the front, lecturing all of the little sheep - lots of beleif, but no experiential spiritual awakening!!!:cool:

[stfd]

I sprang from the RC religion and I eventually turned my back upon it - and true - its probably becasue of their actions that I turned my back on all organized religions - I now view all organized religion with distaste.

It's organized religion I have found to be corrupt - it always starts out with the best of intentions - and then some control hungry guys try to take over and get into the limelight - where they are always the teacher and you are always the student.

I believe in equality - not the pastor/priest doing all the talking and telling us what is the case. I particularly like the line from the bible, where Jesus tells people to pray in thier room where no one sees them - not in the houses of worship.

I don't use the word "religion" (it puts a bad taste in my mouth). I use the word spirituality, because to me, everything Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed etc taught was really meant to facilitate the awakening of spirit within ones own experience.

Organized religion seems to step on the toes of that awakening!

Maybe there are some religious groups out there where this awakening is indeed happening - its just that I have encountered many groups - and none of them fall away from the same steretypical pattern ... the guy at the front, lecturing all of the little sheep - lots of beleif, but no experiential spiritual awakening!!!:cool:


Putting all religions in one bucket reminds of the thing slapped together by UN... the yare trying to basically merge all in one which they call 'high spirituality' where all pray together and do all together...
And what a bunch of deceit that is...

Anyway i AM sorry for your past experience with the RC.
But understand, is a matter of faith and not what this guy or the other tell you.If i were you i wouldnt judge the RC as a whole only because you had personal (even tho real) problems with it.
And while those issues arent actually local but more like global iwouldn;t judge then either.
What it takes is judgement on personal level; and in this case you concluded by efectivelly leaving the RC.
Now my question is, upon leaving ( for whatever reasons) why have you turned wholly and entirelly on Christianity?

[adbasque]

I sprang from the RC religion and I eventually turned my back upon it - and true - its probably becasue of their actions that I turned my back on all organized religions - I now view all organized religion with distaste.

You turned your back, not on religion itself, but on what some hypocrites did with it and they did it so you turn your back away from it.

And it happens globally, people judge religion by what some evil corrupt entities did in it's name, they didn't try and learn more about that particular religion.


It's organized religion I have found to be corrupt - it always starts out with the best of intentions - and then some control hungry guys try to take over and get into the limelight - where they are always the teacher and you are always the student.

Exactly, so your answer should be, I'll show you what real religion teaches us, and help others see the true beauty of it, it's real spirituality, I have been disappointed too, but I said there's more to it than meets the eye.

It was clear to me who was doing behind this huge manipulation and it's been going on for many centuries.
The early Christians, Muslims etc.. were really fighting the Illuminati, you can check it out for yourself.


I believe in equality - not the pastor/priest doing all the talking and telling us what is the case. I particularly like the line from the bible, where Jesus tells people to pray in thier room where no one sees them - not in the houses of worship.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that, you don't have to run to the church unless you know the priest to be an honest man, and you know the people who attend the church to be genuine nice people, because there a lot of benefits, as we all live in communities, it's sometime important to get to know people, you never know when you'll need them, even if it's based on a selfish point of view.

Remember not everybody out there is a monster, monsters are a small minority who knew how to manipulate the large populations.
You smell a rat in your local church talk to others kick the priest out, and have him replaced with someone you know he is a nice genuine human being.


I don't use the word "religion" (it puts a bad taste in my mouth). I use the word spirituality, because to me, everything Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed etc taught was really meant to facilitate the awakening of spirit within ones own experience.

Call it spirituality, I have no problem what anyone would call it, religion or spirituality etc.. are just words, what matters is the union between you and God, and what you do to your fellow human beings, fighting injustice, helping the weak etc..


Organized religion seems to step on the toes of that awakening!

To be honest, I don't see the organised religion as a problem, once a person is wide awake, nothing can blur their vision.
Ones you know how the game is played and to keep yourself on alert, as soon as you see the same pattern emerging again, you'll spot it right away.



Maybe there are some religious groups out there where this awakening is indeed happening - its just that I have encountered many groups - and none of them fall away from the same steretypical pattern ... the guy at the front, lecturing all of the little sheep - lots of beleif, but no experiential spiritual awakening!!!:cool:

It's all down to honesty, depends how honest people are, don't take anybody who claims to be religious on his words, a true religious person, can't harm anyone, at least not intentionally, will speak the truth, will help the weak and one another etc.. love to your neighbour what you would like to yourself.

That's a true religious, and also it's good to remember that a religious man/woman are just human beings, they are not perfect, but what matters is their sincerity, if they have made a mistake and sincerely asked for forgiveness or (Repented, we all make mistakes, nobody is perfect.

[tjohn]

So you have checked every single one of them? you asked every single person there and got a feed back that they were either communists or atheists but nobody was a believer?:rolleyes:

Some of them support the war true, like some communists, and lots of Atheists such as the Rothschilds, at least you have this in common with them.

They hate religion, they hate God and they hate anyone who follows God and his religion.

You have a lot in common with the Rothschilds, except perhaps you being against the war and them are the actual instigators, other than that you have a lot in common.

So all the communists were out there to protest against the war and not one Christian? How about Muslims, were they in the Protest or were they in Mosques praying too?

Oh what would the world do without the Atheists and Communists lol

:)Please stop twisting my words. When I say "the majority of people" are non-believers, that's not the same as saying all.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1216545&postcount=212

The stop the war 'coalition' in the UK is mainly of composed of communists and socialists and that is a fact. Naturally there were Muslims protesting and some Christians as well but the Christians churches do not attempt to rally people to do much practical. Instead, like many religious people they are simply praying rather than doing and over the centuries billions of people have prayed for peace but it makes no difference, we still have wars. Despite all the prayers where was your Allah when Iraq was bombed? Where is your Allah now? How many more centuries will it take for people to realise that Religion is a deception?

[adbasque]

Please stop twisting my words. When I say "the majority of people" are non-believers, that's not the same as saying all.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1216545&postcount=212

The stop the war 'coalition' in the UK is mainly of composed of communists and socialists and that is a fact. Naturally there were Muslims protesting and some Christians as well but the Christians churches do not attempt to rally people to do much practical. Instead, like many religious people they are simply praying rather than doing and over the centuries billions of people have prayed for peace but it makes no difference, we still have wars. Despite all the prayers where was your Allah when Iraq was bombed? Where is your Allah now? How many more centuries will it take for people to realise that Religion is a deception?

John please try and act like a mature adult when you make statements such as these "where was my Allah", Allah always is.

Think about it just one second, if Allah strikes everytime a human being sins, nobody would be left on this planet.

Allah reserves his judgements to the end, he is not going to intervene, so try and speak with a little wisdom, you are looking for any excuse to attack God.

Go on be honest about it and tell us exactly your problem with God, don't give that over the years blah blah I found he doesn't exist religion blah blah;

I mean you have something very personal and you're very resentful of God and this is not the way to go, you're acting like a small child who hasn't got what he wanted, whatever that maybe, and he is taking it on God.

I am certain it's personal, you didn't get something (s) in your life and you're blaming Allah, God etc..

It's bitterness coming out from you and I feel you're very jealous of people who still worship him, who adore him, etc.. that's why you're so pissed off at God and religious people.

It's incredible how you made it a personal vendetta, you're acting exactly like the devil did, when he refused to bow, listen mate you're playing with your maker, do you realise??
He made you and he can do whatever the hell he wants with you and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it, you will always be a loser not him.

So get you're act together and don't let that Shaytan blow your ego you will lose, your only friend is God, not me, not any other human being, certainly not Satan.

We humans tend to look at what we didn't have rather than what we have.
Be thankful to whatever he gave you.

You're doing nothing but bashing him, he is not your enemy your enemy is hiding and whispering to your ear, you keep talking about dimension, well Satan is the expert he works on another dimension.

These people who are bombing, killing, mutilating, lying, stealing, robbing, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc... as soon as they die the punishment starts, they will be asked few questions, to which they won't have answers, and then the real punishment starts, Not hell, No not yet, hell is right at the end.

They will be punished from the day they die until the judgement day.
This is no Joke, and some people have actually seen it with their own eyes.

First take a look at the torment of the grave
And check out how many people have witnessed it some even passed out.

These are true stories where I have known people who witnessed not hearsay blah blah or some legends or myths.

Think about it, ask about the torments of the grave.

[stfd]

John please try and act like a mature adult when you make statements such as these "where was my Allah", Allah always is.

Think about it just one second, if Allah strikes everytime a human being sins, nobody would be left on this planet.

Allah reserves his judgements to the end, he is not going to intervene, so try and speak with a little wisdom, you are looking for any excuse to attack God.

Go on be honest about it and tell us exactly your problem with God, don't give that over the years blah blah I found he doesn't exist religion blah blah;

I mean you have something very personal and you're very resentful of God and this is not the way to go, you're acting like a small child who hasn't got what he wanted, whatever that maybe, and he is taking it on God.

I am certain it's personal, you didn't get something (s) in your life and you're blaming Allah, God etc..

It's bitterness coming out from you and I feel you're very jealous of people who still worship him, who adore him, etc.. that's why you're so pissed off at God and religious people.

It's incredible how you made it a personal vendetta, you're acting exactly like the devil did, when he refused to bow, listen mate you're playing with your maker, do you realise??
He made you and he can do whatever the hell he wants with you and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it, you will always be a loser not him.

So get you're act together and don't let that Shaytan blow your ego you will lose, your only friend is God, not me, not any other human being, certainly not Satan.

We humans tend to look at what we didn't have rather than what we have.
Be thankful to whatever he gave you.

You're doing nothing but bashing him, he is not your enemy your enemy is hiding and whispering to your ear, you keep talking about dimension, well Satan is the expert he works on another dimension.

These people who are bombing, killing, mutilating, lying, stealing, robbing, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc... as soon as they die the punishment starts, they will be asked few questions, to which they won't have answers, and then the real punishment starts, Not hell, No not yet, hell is right at the end.

They will be punished from the day they die until the judgement day.
This is no Joke, and some people have actually seen it with their own eyes.

First take a look at the torment of the grave
And check out how many people have witnessed it some even passed out.

These are true stories where I have known people who witnessed not hearsay blah blah or some legends or myths.

Think about it, ask about the torments of the grave.


good post :)

[live_free]

Religions in general seem to be nothing more than a glorified way of conning slaves and indentured servants into sheepishly putting up with things they'd otherwise never put up with.

[thelucifer]

Go on be honest about it and tell us exactly your problem with God, don't give that over the years blah blah I found he doesn't exist religion blah blah;

I mean you have something very personal and you're very resentful of God and this is not the way to go, you're acting like a small child who hasn't got what he wanted, whatever that maybe, and he is taking it on God.

I am certain it's personal, you didn't get something (s) in your life and you're blaming Allah, God etc..

It's bitterness coming out from you and I feel you're very jealous of people who still worship him, who adore him, etc.. that's why you're so pissed off at God and religious people.


So, this is what maturity looks like ?

the real punishment starts, Not hell, No not yet, hell is right at the end.

They will be punished from the day they die until the judgement day.
This is no Joke, and some people have actually seen it with their own eyes.


This is the icing on the cake.


Cartoonish at best.

[stfd]

Religions in general seem to be nothing more than a glorified way of conning slaves and indentured servants into sheepishly putting up with things they'd otherwise never put up with.

'seem' as in YOU think that that's what they are, right?

[stfd]

So, this is what maturity looks like ?




This is the icing on the cake.


Cartoonish at best.

The time is late.
Do you think that resorting to this is gonna change anything?
Why do you prefer a cozy lie over the inconvenient truth?

[adbasque]

The time is late.
Do you think that resorting to this is gonna change anything?
Why do you prefer a cozy lie over the inconvenient truth?

Because the truth is so scary, they think all of these evil doers will just walk away after what they've done.

On one hand they complain why didn't God intervene while they were committing their crimes (which was explained)

When God takes action to punish them, they are all up in arms rejecting it as even accusing him of being ruthless, hateful God.

You can never win with these people never, no matter what you do, I found that some f them have a weakness for evil things, almost as if it excites them in some strange way.

Yes they will deny it, but everything that's god stands for they are against it, the only way to not follow his commands is by first rejecting "religion" and His "words", that way they can go on and do whatever the hell they want.

Why would it bother me how God is going to punish those people?
Are we more merciful than he is?
Do we care about those people more than he does?
How arrogant can anyone be?

He is GOD he knows what you will never know, he sees what you will never see, he hears what you will never hear, he can he has the power, even if you disagree with him, there's nothing you can do about it.

You know why? Because he is God almighty all powerful.

[live_free]

'seem' as in YOU think that that's what they are, right?

Since you need to have the obvious spelled out for you, yes.

I'm well aware that countless others think that "submission (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLhsv9HhplU)" to authority (no matter how corrupt that authority is) equals "freedom."

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[dedicate]

Yes, these questions about suffering and painful situations, are always thown out by the sceptic and critic... Like somehow this world should just be a wonderful beautiful peaceful fun place for them to live? and if it isn't then they refuse to live at peace and in wonderment? And that's the end for them.

[stfd]

Since you need to have the obvious spelled out for you, yes.

I'm well aware that countless others think that "submission (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLhsv9HhplU)" to authority (no matter how corrupt that authority is) equals "freedom."

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe



None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
EXACTLY!
You falsely believe that you are free by not believing in God while all along you have been wrong.
Is good to see were starting to understand eachother.

[dedicate]

"Freedom" -- that's a big word.

[live_free]

You falsely believe that you are free by not believing in God

By not believing in your God, you mean.

How typically arrogant.

"As several of my colleagues and others of my fellow-citizens of France have given me the example of making their voluntary and individual profession of faith, I also will make mine; and I do this with all that sincerity and frankness with which the mind of man communicates with itself.

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

"But, lest it should be supposed that I believe in many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

-- Thomas Paine (http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/reason1.htm)

[reality man]

What it takes is judgement on personal level; and in this case you concluded by efectivelly leaving the RC.
Now my question is, upon leaving ( for whatever reasons) why have you turned wholly and entirelly on Christianity?

I haven't turned my back on Christianity - I respect the historical Jesus, but I also respect Buddha in the same way - to me, they taught virtually the same message - in different ways of course.

It is the corrupted version of Christianity I have turned on - and if Jesus were alive today, I think he would despair over what has gone on and is still going on in his name.

I ask "christians" sometimes what they think about some of the things recorded in the new testament - things Jesus said - and they always walk out of the room or get nasty with me.

These are not my sayings, but words recorded from the mouth of a man they claim to follow. And once again, I don't lecture but merely ask what they think about some of these sayings ... some follow below...

... The kingdom of heaven is within you

... It is written in your own scriptues that God said "You are Gods", God called those people Gods, the very people to whom his message was given.

... Whoever does not become like a child will never see the kingdom of God

... The wind blows where it wishes, you hear the sound it makes but do not know where it comes from or where it goes - it is like that with everyone who is born of the spirit.


These are a few small examples - and I always get bad reactions from so called "christians" when I ask them about it. Maybe you caould shed a light on why that may be the case???

[stfd]

By not believing in your God, you mean.

How typically arrogant.

"As several of my colleagues and others of my fellow-citizens of France have given me the example of making their voluntary and individual profession of faith, I also will make mine; and I do this with all that sincerity and frankness with which the mind of man communicates with itself.

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

"But, lest it should be supposed that I believe in many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

-- Thomas Paine (http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/reason1.htm)



I am pretty sure you said it yourself -->I'm well aware that countless others think that "submission" to authority (no matter how corrupt that authority is) equals "freedom."

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

How am i arrogant? is something i pasted from your post ?!?
Can you pls make sense?

[adbasque]

Religions in general seem to be nothing more than a glorified way of conning slaves and indentured servants into sheepishly putting up with things they'd otherwise never put up with.

Putting up with things they'd otherwise never put up?

So according to your above statement all non religious people are aware what's going on and they are not putting up with certain things.

And the rest of us who have faith and religious are putting up with those things?

Whatever they may be:rolleyes:

[stfd]

Putting up with things they'd otherwise never put up?

So according to your above statement all non religious people are aware what's going on and they are not putting up with certain things.

And the rest of us who have faith and religious are putting up with those things?

Whatever they may be:rolleyes:

:)

[adbasque]

Maybe we should all follow his belief and his masters, because this guy doesn't believe in God either, he is Satan's whore in the true sense of the word.


Maybe this guy should not be punished by God and his masters, after all we don't want to be harsh do we? :rolleyes:

They rape us and they get away with it :)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/25/article-1208839-0233F649000005DC-605_468x319.jpg
Deal on downloaders: Peter Mandelson, Secretary of State for Business, leaves his home near Regents Park, North London


Maybe we all should follow them, we make them happy and everybody is happy :)


Illegal downloaders will have broadband cut off under new Mandelson plan

Internet users who illegally download films and music will have their broadband connection cut off under Government proposals due to be announced today.

The decision means internet users who share copyrighted materials with others will get warning letters, before having their connection stopped if they persist.

The move triggered anger among campaigners who claim it flies in the face of ministers' desire for universal broadband access.[

Link Here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208839/Illegal-downloaders-internet-cut-new-Mandy-plan.html)


The first steps to kill the internet.

[reality man]

Thats it - i'm off - there's more sense being talked in the reptilians forum!

[adbasque]

Thats it - i'm off - there's more sense being talked in the reptilians forum!

Lol good luck with the lizards then

[tjohn]

John please try and act like a mature adult when you make statements such as these "where was my Allah", Allah always is.I said "where was your Allah?" and it wasn't an immature question but a very reasonable one: Despite all the prayers where was your Allah when Iraq was bombed? Where is your Allah now? How many more centuries will it take for people to realise that Religion is a deception?

Think about it just one second, if Allah strikes everytime a human being sins, nobody would be left on this planet.Then how can your Allah be the perfect God of all?

Allah reserves his judgements to the end, he is not going to intervene, so try and speak with a little wisdom, you are looking for any excuse to attack God.I agree that your Allah is not likely to intervene and I am not attacking GOD.
Go on be honest about it and tell us exactly your problem with God, don't give that over the years blah blah I found he doesn't exist religion blah blah;My problem is not with GOD; my problem is with Religion and if you can't tell the difference, quite frankly, your eyes must be glued together so that you cannot see straight!

I mean you have something very personal and you're very resentful of God and this is not the way to go, you're acting like a small child who hasn't got what he wanted, whatever that maybe, and he is taking it on God.

I am certain it's personal, you didn't get something (s) in your life and you're blaming Allah, God etc..

It's bitterness coming out from you and I feel you're very jealous of people who still worship him, who adore him, etc.. that's why you're so pissed off at God and religious people.So I say it again. My problem is not with God; my problem is with Religion and if you can't tell the difference, quite frankly your eyes must be glued together so that you cannot see straight.

It's incredible how you made it a personal vendetta, you're acting exactly like the devil did, when he refused to bow, listen mate you're playing with your maker, do you realise??I am not playing with my maker (yet I am but you wouldn't have a clue to understand) and I am in serious dispute of your version of God being the God of all.

He made you and he can do whatever the hell he wants with you and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it, you will always be a loser not him.It seems to me that your version of God did not make me.

So get you're act together and don't let that Shaytan blow your ego you will lose, your only friend is God, not me, not any other human being, certainly not Satan.Satan would be a religious fabrication else your god is not GOD.

We humans tend to look at what we didn't have rather than what we have. Be thankful to whatever he gave you.Your version of God which you claim is perfect, gave me and much of the world a great deal of pain. Seems that rather than being perfect, in some ways 'He' hates 'Himself' then. Listen and watch my lips! Your god is not the God of all and your god is a 'He' and also a 'We' that does not represent everything that exists which 'He/We' claims to have created.

You're doing nothing but bashing him, he is not your enemy your enemy is hiding and whispering to your ear, you keep talking about dimension, well Satan is the expert he works on another dimension.I do not keep talking about other dimensions, though I do think they exist. I rarely mention "dimensions" so why are you throwing "dimensions" at me on these threads? Another example of your dishonesty it would seem.

These people who are bombing, killing, mutilating, lying, stealing, robbing, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc... as soon as they die the punishment starts, they will be asked few questions, to which they won't have answers, and then the real punishment starts, Not hell, No not yet, hell is right at the end.Punishment from your perfect God who you say made us all?
They will be punished from the day they die until the judgement day. This is no Joke, and some people have actually seen it with their own eyes.

First take a look at the torment of the grave
And check out how many people have witnessed it some even passed out.

These are true stories where I have known people who witnessed not hearsay blah blah or some legends or myths.

Think about it, ask about the torments of the grave.Torments from your perfect God whom you say made us all?

[adbasque]

John we will be going around in circles, your problem is not with God but with religion.

My problem is not with Bush but his policies, does that sound right to you?

Allah is one of his names (GOD) is the title how many times do we have to say this?

There's only one God not two thousands.
You keep repeating the same things.

My God is your God and everybody elses God, what you call him is is up to you.
One thing you cannot change is his Oneness.

Why did he create us?
Why are we on this earth and not somewhere else in the heavens?
Why do we live such a short life, it's basically a blink of an eye

What is his main reason to create us and send us down here to live and then die?

You seem to reject Hell and Heaven, if that's true, then why are we here?
What is the purpose of it all?

How did you know he existed at all if it weren't for the religion?

[adbasque]

John Said


Your version of God which you claim is perfect, gave me and much of the world a great deal of pain. Seems that rather than being perfect, in some ways 'He' hates 'Himself' then. Listen and watch my lips! Your god is not the God of all and your god is a 'He' and also a 'We' that does not represent everything that exists which 'He/We' claims to have created.

Such as?
Show me this pain that "My" God did to you personally and the rest of the world, it's strange I haven't heard anyone complaining about my God.

Don't beat around the bush please, Me Adbasque want you TJOHN to show me and this forum where did my God cause s much pain?

You say you want to help me see, ok then here's your chance, show me that awful God of mine and his evil deeds.