My First Year As A Muslim - An open letter.

[converger]

My First Year As A Muslim

An open letter from Jeremiah D. McAuliffe, Jr., Ph.D. to the Pittsburgh Muslim community one year after he embraced Islam

My dear brothers and sisters,

I pray Allah grants you His peace in your minds and in your hearts. I am somewhat nervous about writing this letter because of two reasons. One is my lack of depth of Islamic knowledge, the other is because of attitudes and behaviors in our community that I have found very disturbing. I have only been a member of this community for one solar year, but frankly, I see little difference than in the Christian communities of which I have been a part. Like those communities there is a small group of people, always the same people, who try to organize and run activities and day-to-day operations. Others either criticize or simply do nothing at all. I have heard Muslims question the piety of other Muslims, indeed, have heard Muslims implying (and saying outright) that another Muslim is "kafr". I have heard so many truly hateful comments about certain communities among the People of the Book that I don't know quite how to respond. I have watched men run outside, play frisbee and football, socialize and have fun while two sisters sit for hours all alone and with nothing to do and no one else to talk to. This was supposed to be "protecting them". From who? From what? I know personally about sexual assault-- two members of my family are victims of such crimes, yet with my Muslim brothers I feel like I am not trusted. Honestly, what I saw was not "protection", but a form of cruelty and meanness. I walk to the masjid and see on the grounds: diapers, tissues, popsicle sticks, partially eaten food, cigarette butts, coke cans, cups, candy wrappers, etc. and I think, "How many Muslims walked by this and didn't pick it up? Why wasn't it thrown in the garbage in the first place?" I have taken on the editing of the newsletter, and I have received complaints which is fine. I ask the person to write the complaint-- I'll publish it (yes, even if critical of what I am doing) but I get nothing. When I am here working on the newsletter only two or three people are ever here for prayer. To a new Muslim, sorry brothers and sisters, you aren't setting a very good example! I tell you, if this is Islam I want nothing to do with it.

But I know this is not Islam. Islam is kindness and compassion. Islam is strong faith in the existence of Allah, though unseen, and belief that the Qur'an is a revelation from the One True God to us. Islam is following the best example of Muhammad (PBUH) but what is the Sunnah exactly? Is it how he wore his clothes or his facial hair, or is it the type of person he was. And if it is both which is more important? None of us use rocks to clean ourselves with, but isn't that Sunnah?? Muhammad (PBUH), to my reading, was so very, very kind, flexible, sensitive, easy. It just seems like many of us emphasize the outer form of the Sunnah at the expense of the inner form-- and thus our inner form is filled with harshness.

But of course, that is only one small group of Pittsburgh Muslims. Because I have seen many people who are what I would think Muslims would try to be. Their personalities are gentle and kind. They have smiles on their face-- smiles that cover up pain as they see what a state our ummah is in. They are often trying their very best to do whatever they can and they bear the slings and arrows of others' criticism with much more patience than I have! How hard they seem to be trying to go beyond their cultural conditioning into the universally human life-style of Islam. They are examples to me. Without them I would have stopped coming to any masjid in Pittsburgh months ago. How sad that so many of them come only to jumah prayer. When I ask why they don't do something to change things they sadly shake their heads and walk away. How did they get so dejected?

I have three suggestions. 1. We must stop centering our attention on what is wrong with the other person and concentrate on what is wrong with us as individuals. We need to take our own moral inventory rather than concentrating on the defects of others. Only Allah and that person can take their moral inventory. As part of this we need to foster the virtues of patience and compassion in ourselves. We need to ask "what can I do" rather than "what is the other person doing". 2. The administrative structure of the masjid needs to be changed: how people are nominated and chosen to serve on the Executive Committee needs to be updated. Perhaps people need to serve in these positions for two years and should be people who live here permanently. 3. We need to read, read, read! We need to learn, learn, learn! We need to know about sociology, anthropology, and psychology so we can confront the challenges that face us when so many different cultural groups have been thrown together. We must have the courage to reject aspects of our own culture that is not Islamic and adopt those from other cultures that may be more in line with Islam. This will take incredible amounts of courage and open-mindedness. Allah can give us these gifts if we ask and are sincere.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

[raven200]

My First Year As A Muslim

An open letter from Jeremiah D. McAuliffe, Jr., Ph.D. to the Pittsburgh Muslim community one year after he embraced Islam

My dear brothers and sisters,

I pray Allah grants you His peace in your minds and in your hearts. I am somewhat nervous about writing this letter because of two reasons. One is my lack of depth of Islamic knowledge, the other is because of attitudes and behaviors in our community that I have found very disturbing. I have only been a member of this community for one solar year, but frankly, I see little difference than in the Christian communities of which I have been a part. Like those communities there is a small group of people, always the same people, who try to organize and run activities and day-to-day operations. Others either criticize or simply do nothing at all. I have heard Muslims question the piety of other Muslims, indeed, have heard Muslims implying (and saying outright) that another Muslim is "kafr". I have heard so many truly hateful comments about certain communities among the People of the Book that I don't know quite how to respond. I have watched men run outside, play frisbee and football, socialize and have fun while two sisters sit for hours all alone and with nothing to do and no one else to talk to. This was supposed to be "protecting them". From who? From what? I know personally about sexual assault-- two members of my family are victims of such crimes, yet with my Muslim brothers I feel like I am not trusted. Honestly, what I saw was not "protection", but a form of cruelty and meanness. I walk to the masjid and see on the grounds: diapers, tissues, popsicle sticks, partially eaten food, cigarette butts, coke cans, cups, candy wrappers, etc. and I think, "How many Muslims walked by this and didn't pick it up? Why wasn't it thrown in the garbage in the first place?" I have taken on the editing of the newsletter, and I have received complaints which is fine. I ask the person to write the complaint-- I'll publish it (yes, even if critical of what I am doing) but I get nothing. When I am here working on the newsletter only two or three people are ever here for prayer. To a new Muslim, sorry brothers and sisters, you aren't setting a very good example! I tell you, if this is Islam I want nothing to do with it.

But I know this is not Islam. Islam is kindness and compassion. Islam is strong faith in the existence of Allah, though unseen, and belief that the Qur'an is a revelation from the One True God to us. Islam is following the best example of Muhammad (PBUH) but what is the Sunnah exactly? Is it how he wore his clothes or his facial hair, or is it the type of person he was. And if it is both which is more important? None of us use rocks to clean ourselves with, but isn't that Sunnah?? Muhammad (PBUH), to my reading, was so very, very kind, flexible, sensitive, easy. It just seems like many of us emphasize the outer form of the Sunnah at the expense of the inner form-- and thus our inner form is filled with harshness.

But of course, that is only one small group of Pittsburgh Muslims. Because I have seen many people who are what I would think Muslims would try to be. Their personalities are gentle and kind. They have smiles on their face-- smiles that cover up pain as they see what a state our ummah is in. They are often trying their very best to do whatever they can and they bear the slings and arrows of others' criticism with much more patience than I have! How hard they seem to be trying to go beyond their cultural conditioning into the universally human life-style of Islam. They are examples to me. Without them I would have stopped coming to any masjid in Pittsburgh months ago. How sad that so many of them come only to jumah prayer. When I ask why they don't do something to change things they sadly shake their heads and walk away. How did they get so dejected?

I have three suggestions. 1. We must stop centering our attention on what is wrong with the other person and concentrate on what is wrong with us as individuals. We need to take our own moral inventory rather than concentrating on the defects of others. Only Allah and that person can take their moral inventory. As part of this we need to foster the virtues of patience and compassion in ourselves. We need to ask "what can I do" rather than "what is the other person doing". 2. The administrative structure of the masjid needs to be changed: how people are nominated and chosen to serve on the Executive Committee needs to be updated. Perhaps people need to serve in these positions for two years and should be people who live here permanently. 3. We need to read, read, read! We need to learn, learn, learn! We need to know about sociology, anthropology, and psychology so we can confront the challenges that face us when so many different cultural groups have been thrown together. We must have the courage to reject aspects of our own culture that is not Islamic and adopt those from other cultures that may be more in line with Islam. This will take incredible amounts of courage and open-mindedness. Allah can give us these gifts if we ask and are sincere.

Jeremiah McAuliffe

Dear Jeremiah,

As you have had the opportunity of seeking the truth and converting your faith of one that follow the Holy Prophet Mohammad as.

I would like to further inform you that the Massiah and Mahdi that Muslims are waiting for has been and gone.

Please read the books or articles from the following website.

www.Alislam.org

We are the only muslim community who is no longer waiting for Jesus to magically decend from the heavens and beleive his second coming to be of a spiritual one that took place in india more than a 100 years back.

We are known as Ahmadi Muslims only so that people can identify us as the muslims who have accepted the second coming of Jesus and of the Imam Mahdi, both of whome was to be through the one person.

We also have a TV channel MTA (Muslim television Ahmaddiyya). SKY 807

I am conveying the message to you that you may further be blessed by accepting not only Islam but also the Prophecised second coming Of Jesus and also the coming of the Mahdi.

Regards

Well wisher (Love for all Hatred for none)

[islamvslizards]

hey raven bro, im bored of twits like eternal_spirit and tjohn, do you want to discuss ahmadi beliefs of the mahdi/ return of jesus?

if you dont thats fine too, like i said im not really big on inter-faith dialogues but itll make a refreshing change to have intelligent discussions for once

[raven200]

hey raven bro, im bored of twits like eternal_spirit and tjohn, do you want to discuss ahmadi beliefs of the mahdi/ return of jesus?

if you dont thats fine too, like i said im not really big on inter-faith dialogues but itll make a refreshing change to have intelligent discussions for once

I have no problem with that thought, you may have specific questions and I may have some answers and so Vice versa, I may have questions as well.

Overall You may want to get some insight into our view of the second coming of Jesus and whome better to explain that than the person who claimed to be massih and mahdi himself.

I am inserting a link to one of his books, if you get chance to read it please do and then we can discuss it, if you don't read it and still have question we can still discuss it. Though I do reccomend a reading.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/TheNeedForTheImam.pdf

[islamvslizards]

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/TheNeedForTheImam.pdf

ive read this book brother. shall we use it as the basis for the discussion? i have many questions, but first i would like to ask:

in the noble quran, it states one of the many miracles attrbuted to jesus, son of mary, was as follows:

[5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

as far as i understand mirza ghulam ahmad claimed he was a reincarnation of jesus, AND the mahdi, in the same person?

what then, is his understanding of this verse, is it literal, or allegorical? scholars such as allama tabatabei, pooya/ali, even contempories like al-khoei and modaressi all say that this was a literal miracle, and there are countless hadiths from the prophet himself (peace be upon him) which relate to this ayat, explaining its literal nature.

now, if mirza ghulam believes that this ayat is literal, are there any accounts of him repeating this, or any, of jesus' miracles? and if allegorical, what is the symbolic meaning of the ayat, according to mirza ghulam?

finally, upon what does he base his knowledge, if not previous scholars/hadiths/the quran?

[raven200]

ive read this book brother. shall we use it as the basis for the discussion? i have many questions, but first i would like to ask:

in the noble quran, it states one of the many miracles attrbuted to jesus, son of mary, was as follows:

[5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

as far as i understand mirza ghulam ahmad claimed he was a reincarnation of jesus, AND the mahdi, in the same person?

what then, is his understanding of this verse, is it literal, or allegorical? scholars such as allama tabatabei, pooya/ali, even contempories like al-khoei and modaressi all say that this was a literal miracle, and there are countless hadiths from the prophet himself (peace be upon him) which relate to this ayat, explaining its literal nature.

now, if mirza ghulam believes that this ayat is literal, are there any accounts of him repeating this, or any, of jesus' miracles? and if allegorical, what is the symbolic meaning of the ayat, according to mirza ghulam?

finally, upon what does he base his knowledge, if not previous scholars/hadiths/the quran?

You say That Mirza Sahib states is the self incarnation of Jesus christ. Well this is absolutely incorrect and nor has he stated anywhere that he is Jesus the same Jesus that was alive in the time before the Holy prophet. His claim is that he is Jesus in the form of the Spiritual embodyment of Jesus.

Now in relation to the verse you have quoted I would like to add some further verses after that to show a clearer picture:

[5:111] When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”

[5:112] And when I inspired the disciples of Jesus to believe in Me and in My Messenger, they said, ‘We believe and bear Thou witness that we have submitted.’

[5:113] When the disciples said, ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, is thy Lord able to send down to us a table spread with food from heaven?’ he said, ‘Fear Allah, if you are believers.’

[5:114] They said, ‘We desire that we may eat of it, and that our hearts be at rest and that we may know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that we may be witnesses thereto.’

[5:115] Said Jesus, son of Mary, ‘O Allah, our Lord, send down to us a table from heaven spread with food that it may be to us a festival, to the first of us and to the last of us, and a Sign from Thee; and provide sustenance for us, for Thou art the Best of sustainers.’

[5:116] Allah said, ‘Surely, I will send it down to you, but whosoever of you disbelieves afterwards — I will surely punish them with a punishment wherewith I will not punish any other of the peoples.’

[5:117] And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things.

[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.

Firstly it is important to note that even after Jesus showed so many miracles even then his disciples went onto further ask for yet another sign so that they may beleive and yet still there were people who did not belive in him being the Jesus and thus the Jews who were waiting for Elijah to come before the massiah went aggresively against him. Even though Jesus informed them that Yahyah the son of Zacharia was the spiritual second coming of Elijah.

It is the same with Muslims today who have become like the Jews, they await the second coming when it has already happened with great signs being fulfilled

Now importantly Ahmadies believe that Jesus has died a natural death and the final few versus that I have posted from the Quran prove this to be true.

[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.

The holy Quran over and over again in several verses states that all men shall taste death, Jesus obviously being a man that means has tasted death and even states that God you have caused me to die. Therefore how is it that he will physically come back and importantly is sitting alive in heaven when he states that he had died. The verse quoted is explaining on the day of judgement when all men will be questioned.

Now in relation to the Miracles of Jesus, anything is possible under the command of God. In relation to Jesus having had so many amazing miracles and the promised messiah not having the same miracles does not mean that he is not the spiritual coming of Jesus.

In all honesty The Holy Prophet Mohammad our beloved prophet the greatest of all prophets did not have similar miracles he did not make anything of clay and breath air into it and make it fly. Does this make him Astaghfrulla any less, by no means this is the case as you will agree.

As the verse you have quoted explains, that people who want to believe and are seeking the truth they shall believe with our without miracles, but the unbelievers will and have always resisted and tormented Messengers.
Below I am inserting a link which explains via the Quran and also Hadith the one of the greatest and undeniable signs of the second coming:

http://www.alislam.org/library/sign.html

Lastly in relation to the promised Massiah’s knowledge, he attributes all his knowledge from the undeterred and consistent guidance by God Almighty himself. He explains in the book to which I gave you the link that the Imam of the time is specifically kept under the light of Allah who shows him through revelation and unbelievably clear insight and understanding of Quran and Hadith the truths that mankind seeks.

It is through this guided insight from God that he was able to clearly explain that Jesus did not die on the cross but in Kashmir at an age of 120, also the Guru Nanak was a muslim and even pointed out the relating evidence, which is the Chola of Guru nanak that contains nothing but quranic ayats and also the book he carried with him was nothing other then the Holy Quran, both of which still reside with the family of Guru Nanak. Our Jamaat has actually got video evidence of the Chola.

But currently I am putting link of a Sikh website, which admits the Quranic verses on the chola:

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurdwara_Langar_Mandir_Chola_Sahib

There are many things that I can continue to provide you as evidence, but in relation to your question I am currently just providing you a simpler understanding, which I hope will make things clearer for you.

[raven200]

IslamvsLizard I am still waiting for a response from you?

You wanted to debate about the coming of the massih and the beliefs of Ahmadies but you have not replied after I reponded to your question?

[islamvslizards]

IslamvsLizard I am still waiting for a response from you?

You wanted to debate about the coming of the massih and the beliefs of Ahmadies but you have not replied after I reponded to your question?

salams bro raven...damn i missed this thread, it got buried thanks to all the anti islam ones. interesting points. im writing up my response now.

[islamvslizards]

You say That Mirza Sahib states is the self incarnation of Jesus christ. Well this is absolutely incorrect and nor has he stated anywhere that he is Jesus the same Jesus that was alive in the time before the Holy prophet. His claim is that he is Jesus in the form of the Spiritual embodyment of Jesus.

apologies, you are going to have to explain further, i dont understand. so mirza ghulam was the "spirit" of jesus, but not "jesus in body"? am i right to assume this?

if so, was he able to perform any of jesus' miracles, as proof of his status? are there any accounts of this?


[5:117] And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things.

[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.


bro, we have to look at the words used here. specifically - the tense.

why is allah talking in the future tense, when the quran was revealed much after the life of the prophet isa? if jesus died a natural death, surely allah would be referring to something that happened in the PAST?

look again at the words:

god WILL ask jesus, did you say "worship me as a god"? jesus WILL say, no, you caused me to die.

from this, can we not conclude, that this is talking about the day of judgement? when ALL of creation will die? this cannot therefore be used as proof that jesus died a natural death, since no muslim believes that jesus is immortal, that he will not die. only he is not dead YET.



Firstly it is important to note that even after Jesus showed so many miracles even then his disciples went onto further ask for yet another sign so that they may beleive

yes, and allah provided such a miracle no?

[5:116] Allah said, ‘Surely, I will send it down to you, but whosoever of you disbelieves afterwards — I will surely punish them with a punishment wherewith I will not punish any other of the peoples.’


and yet still there were people who did not belive in him being the Jesus and thus the Jews who were waiting for Elijah to come before the massiah went aggresively against him. Even though Jesus informed them that Yahyah the son of Zacharia was the spiritual second coming of Elijah.

i have trouble understanding your terminology - "spiritual second coming"? can you elaborate, or provide further islamic evidence where transmigration of the soul occured?


It is the same with Muslims today who have become like the Jews, they await the second coming when it has already happened with great signs being fulfilled

brother i have to disagree here. which "great signs" have been fulfilled? if i remember correctly the ahmadis believe that their imam (mirza ghulam) will "end christianity", and claim that his books do this. however there are still more christians in the world than ahmadis, so how has this sign been fulfilled?

what other signs are there? as yet we are awaiting the rise of the dajjals embodiment. who was the dajjal? the sufyani? the yemeni? the black flags from khorasan? the beast rising from egypt? and countless others?

secondly, there are unanimous hadiths - sunni and shia - which state that jesus will offer prayers BEHIND the mahdi, how therefore could this have happened if both jesus and the mahdi were the same person - ghulam mirza?


Now importantly Ahmadies believe that Jesus has died a natural death and the final few versus that I have posted from the Quran prove this to be true.

[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.

The holy Quran over and over again in several verses states that all men shall taste death, Jesus obviously being a man that means has tasted death and even states that God you have caused me to die. Therefore how is it that he will physically come back and importantly is sitting alive in heaven when he states that he had died. The verse quoted is explaining on the day of judgement when all men will be questioned.

indeed no muslim is questioning the validity of the ayats, but the quran also mentions prophets who lived much longer than 2normal" lives - for example noah who lived almost a thousand years, the companions (now sleepers) in the cave who will awaken at the final battle, who lived over 300 years before their sleep, khizr the teacher of moses' secrets, who is still alive...why therefore is it impossible that jesus could also be alive still?


Now in relation to the Miracles of Jesus, anything is possible under the command of God. In relation to Jesus having had so many amazing miracles and the promised messiah not having the same miracles does not mean that he is not the spiritual coming of Jesus.

brother how else are we to prove that he was indeed the spiritual coming of jesus? if i was to claim i was the spiritual second coming of jesus, surely the first thing anyone would ask would be "prove it". therefore how did mirza ghulam prove it?


In all honesty The Holy Prophet Mohammad our beloved prophet the greatest of all prophets did not have similar miracles he did not make anything of clay and breath air into it and make it fly. Does this make him Astaghfrulla any less, by no means this is the case as you will agree.

the prophets miracles were numerous brother. for ease and simplicity i will mention only one:

taken from the nahjul balagha, the collection of the sermons of imam ali, and almost universally accepted as reliable narrations by most sects in islam:

I was with him when a party of the Quraysh came to him and said to him, "O' Muhammad, you have made a big claim which none of your fore-fathers or those of your family have made. We ask you one thing; if you give us an answer to it and show it to us, we will believe that you are a prophet and a messenger, but if you cannot do it, we will know that you are a sorcerer and a liar."

The Messenger of Allah said: "What do you ask for?" They said: "Ask this tree to move for us, even with its roots, and stop before you." The Prophet said, "Verily, Allah has power over everything. If Allah does it for you, will you then believe and stand witness to the truth?" They said "Yes". Then he said, "I shall show you whatever you want, but I know that you won't bend towards virtue, and there are among you those who will be thrown into the pit, and those who will form parties (against me)." Then the Holy Prophet said: "O' tree, if you do believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, and know that I am the Prophet of Allah, come up with your roots and stand before me with the permission of Allah." By Him who deputed the Prophet with truth, the tree did remove itself with its root and came with a great humming sound and a flapping like the flapping of the wings of birds, till it stopped before the Messenger of Allah while some of its twigs came down onto my shoulders, and I was on the right side of the Holy Prophet.

When the people saw this they said by way of pride and vanity. "Now you order half of it to come to you and the other half of it remain (in its place)." The Holy Prophet ordered the tree to do the same. Then half of the tree advanced towards him in an amazing manner and with greater humming. It was about to touch the Prophet of Allah. Then they said, disbelieving and revolting, "Ask this half to get back to its other half and be as it was." The Prophet ordered it and it returned. Then I said, "O' Prophet of Allah, I am the first to believe in you and to acknowledge that the tree did what it did just now with the command of Allah, the Sublime, in testimony to your Prophethood and to heighten your word. Upon this all the people shouted, "Rather a sorcerer, a liar; it is wonderful sorcery, he is very adept in it. Only a man like this (pointing to me) can stand testimony to you in your affairs."


link (http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/191.htm)


As the verse you have quoted explains, that people who want to believe and are seeking the truth they shall believe with our without miracles, but the unbelievers will and have always resisted and tormented Messengers.

how then, did the people know that their prophets were real, and not a fraud? for example a few days after the prophet passed away an imposter called mohalamine announced HE was a prophets incarnation and demanded followers. how therefore would the people at that time know he was fake?

(just for info, they asked him to perform a similar miracle of the prophet and he was unable to do so)


Below I am inserting a link which explains via the Quran and also Hadith the one of the greatest and undeniable signs of the second coming:

http://www.alislam.org/library/sign.html

i will have to write a separate post in response to the link.


Lastly in relation to the promised Massiah’s knowledge, he attributes all his knowledge from the undeterred and consistent guidance by God Almighty himself. He explains in the book to which I gave you the link that the Imam of the time is specifically kept under the light of Allah who shows him through revelation and unbelievably clear insight and understanding of Quran and Hadith the truths that mankind seeks.

brother look at the highlighted part again. how does mirza ghulam fulfill this criteria? is there any evidence of his revelation (even tho islam is adamant that revelation ended with the prophet), his insight (even though there is no evidence of this?) and he has provided no tafsir of the quran to demonstrate his knowledge of the quran and hadith?

by the way, which hadiths did mirza ghulam believe were reliable? what were his views on abu hurraira/ ibn taymiyya?


It is through this guided insight from God that he was able to clearly explain that Jesus did not die on the cross but in Kashmir at an age of 120,

brother this is no great discovery, the tomb of jesus predates mirza ghulam by thousands of years. for him to "know" about it all he would have to do was visit kashmir once in his life.


also the Guru Nanak was a muslim and even pointed out the relating evidence, which is the Chola of Guru nanak that contains nothing but quranic ayats

again, this is no unique discovery. anyone who has read the sikh books (as i have) can instantly spot where he mentions allah and muhammed. its not exactly difficult.


There are many things that I can continue to provide you as evidence, but in relation to your question I am currently just providing you a simpler understanding, which I hope will make things clearer for you.

allahu aalim brother. its good talking to you :)

[islamvslizards]

Below I am inserting a link which explains via the Quran and also Hadith the one of the greatest and undeniable signs of the second coming:

http://www.alislam.org/library/sign.html


firstly brother, double eclipses in ramadan are no unique or special occurence.

list of all the double eclipses in ramazan and their regularity (http://alhafeez.org/rashid/eclpart5.htm)

in fact they happen around once a century? the last one occured in 2003! and predicting them is fairly accurate, in fact eclipse predictions have been going on since early history, with the greeks and egyptians.

it is no great leap of logic that he would have known of this eclipse far in advance? maybe years in advance? and planned accordingly?

[enga]

Re:OP

From what I've seen where I live a lot of problems with people following Islam seem to be social conditioning and partially cultural and unrelated per-se to the religion itself. I doubt it says anywhere in the Koran to lock up your daughters.
I read the Koran when I was a teenager and it's like most religions...the theory is great but practice...not so great depending on who is doing it.
I think all the good Muslims should set a good example to the idiotic ones and call them up on any stupid behaviour.
I have a friend who is Muslim and she was married young to a guy who beat the hell out of her. She had kids with him. Later she managed to get away and got divorced. Now she met some other nice Muslim guy who she loves and wants to marry. His Mother is so locked into wanting Grandkids (my friend wants no more kids) and disapproving her divorce that she wont approve it. The Mother is constantly bringing women for her Son to try to get him into an arranged marriage. It's so stupid - neither of them want that.

[raven200]

apologies, you are going to have to explain further, i dont understand. so mirza ghulam was the "spirit" of jesus, but not "jesus in body"? am i right to assume this?

if so, was he able to perform any of jesus' miracles, as proof of his status? are there any accounts of this?


I shall go through your questions and responses one by one and hope inshallah by the grace of Allah that you will be able to see what is very apparent.

In relation to revelation from God, Hadhrat massiah Maud had thousands of revelations from God, for it was as if the fountain of gods revelation had opened upon him. In terms of Miracles, his revelations from God were absolute miracles.

When the Holy Quran says that Jesus raised people from the dead by the will of god, this is very much so explained by hadhrat Massiah Maud as he did the same, I shall post his word below:

From his book Essence of Islam Volume 2;

"Then, a long time afterwards, it so happened that the
son of Nawab Sardar Muhammad ‘Ali Khan, a nobleman
of Malir Kotla, fell seriously ill in Qadian, and his
life was almost despaired of. He beseeched me for

prayer. So I retired to my Bait-ud-Du‘a60 and prayed
for him. After I had prayed I learned that his death had
been decreed and that it was futile to pray at the time.
Upon this I said: ‘Lord, if the prayer is not to be accepted,
then I intercede on his behalf that You may
cure him for my sake.’ These words involuntarily escaped
my lips but I was afterwards filled with remorse
for having uttered them. Immediately after this I received
the revelation:

‘Who can dare to intercede without His permission?’

I fell silent after hearing this revelation. Hardly a minute
had passed before I received the following revelation:

‘You are granted permission to intercede.’

I then prayed fervently and I could feel that this time the
prayer would not go unanswered. The boy recovered
that very day, nay that very moment, and it was as if
he had come out of his grave. I know for a fact that
the miracles of Jesusas, whereby he gave life to the
dead, were no greater than this. I am grateful to God
that many miracles of this kind have been demonstrated
at my hands."

He has explained all this in a lot of detail and if you want to read it with also the arabic revelation given to him read from the following link from pages 186 to 191 the page numbers of the text pages and not the PDF page numbers.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-5.pdf


bro, we have to look at the words used here. specifically - the tense.

why is allah talking in the future tense, when the quran was revealed much after the life of the prophet isa? if jesus died a natural death, surely allah would be referring to something that happened in the PAST?

look again at the words:

god WILL ask jesus, did you say "worship me as a god"? jesus WILL say, no, you caused me to die.

from this, can we not conclude, that this is talking about the day of judgement? when ALL of creation will die? this cannot therefore be used as proof that jesus died a natural death, since no muslim believes that jesus is immortal, that he will not die. only he is not dead YET.

[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.

You are right this verse explaining that when Allah will ask the prophets to whome people had likened to God on the day of judgement if they had really told them they were God or children of God.

Now as you yourself understand this is the day of Judgment and God is asking Hadhrat Isa the same Isa that came to the Jews if he had told them he was God, he will respond by saying that I had died I could not witness what they were saying about me.

Well Brother how can a man who was sitting in heaven alive say that he did not witness this while as you beleive him to be still alive, is he not witnessing all that the Christians have made him into even to this day?

In relation to your belief should he have not said in this verse instead that even though I came down from heaven and told them I am not God they still did not believe me.

How can on the day of judgement Hadrhat Isa miss such an important aspect of his coming back down from heaven and making all the christians muslims. I mean if a man comes down from the sky with two angels carrying him down then obviously the whole world will believe in his truth, and so he will not have to tell God on judgment day that you caused me to die and I could not witness what they were upto.

It is so clear in the Holy Quran that Hadhrat Isa died and did not return and that on the day of judgment the day of reconing he tells God that I told them what you told me to tell them and after I died I could'nt witness what they were saying about me or making me into.


i have trouble understanding your terminology - "spiritual second coming"? can you elaborate, or provide further islamic evidence where transmigration of the soul occured?

I don't say that transmigartion of the soul had occurred and that the sould of Jesus had gone into Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.

The spiritual coming in the sense of the massiah means that the spiritual mission of the Second coming is almost exactly for the same purpose as was of Jesus.

Jesus came to reform the Jews, they had gone astray from there true teachings, as exactly the same spritiual mission of the promised Massiah but this time it is for the muslims who have gone astray from there teachings. Now firstly as I have explained earlier as a muslim one needs to clear his heart and understand the quran when it informs us that Jesus has died, once you understand this as I have explained above you will start to understand that the second coming was not to be of the same person but a spiritiual representation of the same mission as was of the first massiah.

I shall give some quotes from hadtih, which clearly indicate that the Massih and Imam mahdi were to be the same person:

"What will be your condition when the son of Mary will descend among you and he will be your Imam from among yourselves."
(Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Anbiya)

"There is no Mahdi except Isa."
(Ibn Maja, Bab Shiddatuz Zaman)

"Whosoever lives from among you shall meet Isa, son of Mary who is Imam, Mahdi, Arbiter and Judge."
(Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411)

The following hadith give a time of around when the mahdi is to come, now this time has already come and gone.

"When one thousand and two hundred and forty years will pass, God will raise Mahdi."
(An-Najmus Saqih, Vol. 2, p. 209)

Also brother explained in hadhrat massiah mauds book, Taudih-e-Maram (Elaucidation of objection) he has given reference to a hadith in Bukhari in which the Holy prophet has given a description of Hadhrat Isa but also in Bukhari he has given a very different description of the massih.

The Holy Prophetsa saw the first Messiah on the night of the Mi‘raj. According to a tradition mentioned in Sahih Bukhari, page 489, the Holy Prophetsa described him as of medium height, reddish complexion, curly hair, and a broad chest. But, in the same book, the Holy Prophetsa is reported to have described the second Messiah as being of light brown complexion the colour of wheat, and having, not curly, but straight hair reaching down to his ears.


further details of this are in the link below:

http://messiahmahdi.blogspot.com/2007/03/7-different-men-different-descriptions.html

brother i have to disagree here. which "great signs" have been fulfilled? if i remember correctly the ahmadis believe that their imam (mirza ghulam) will "end christianity", and claim that his books do this. however there are still more christians in the world than ahmadis, so how has this sign been fulfilled?

My friend I just want to add something I saw today and it made me think, mainly as I have been studying my own faith in much more details lately trying to understand much better what was the clear message of the Massih and Mahdi.

Now as I was driving home from work today I stopped at the traffic lights and to the left there was a lorry parked, this lorry belonged to company council or the company that do road works to fix road once they have gone bad, and on the side of the lorry it was written, "They will know I have been - once I have gone."

As soon as I read this I felt as though a message or one of my doubts had been cleared from my mind.

The massiah had come to reform and to put things right when they had gone bad for Islam. Like Jesus it will be even after the passing away of Hadhrat massiah Maud that the truth will continue to spread, and a time will come by Allah will when the majority of the world will be following the true Islam.

The road have been laid down afresh for the true bleiver to realise that that Massiah has come and Islam by the grace and will of Allah will bear witness to all of its truth as the religion of Allah. Our master hadhrat Mohammad (saw) the greatest light of all, the one who's inner mirror was so perfect that Gods most beautiful reflection was reflected to all who belived in him has through God given us the teaching of the one final religion for all mankind.

Now it is through the Massih and Mahdi that this great religion will shine it's light through the world and bring all the millions under it fold.

I tell you brother that by God inshallah Ahmadiyyat will be spread under the banner of Islam throughout the world, currently in a matter of 100 years there are more then 200 million Ahmadies and this number will keep on growing because this is the will of God, and it is is will that is the truth.

what other signs are there? as yet we are awaiting the rise of the dajjals embodiment. who was the dajjal? the sufyani? the yemeni? the black flags from khorasan? the beast rising from egypt? and countless others?

The link I gave you earlier to the Book of Hadhrat Massiah Maud, which is the book Essence of Islam volume 5, this is full of facts relating to Miracles signs and prophecies, if you get time have a read through:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-5.pdf

Now in relation to the Dajjal, the dajjal has arrived sometime ago brother, have you lokked around and seen the advancements man has made in the last hundred years or so? The description of the Dajjal was given at a time when people could not comprehend the advances in techonology, therefore the explanation given by the Holy prophet was put in a manner that they could understand. Brother in relaity you will not see a one eyed monster appear, the one eyed monster is already hear. The one eye represents the eye for the material world. Below I shall put the words of the Hadhrat Massiah Maud in relation to this:

From Essence of Islam Volume 4:

Which then is the time of a greater Dajjal and greater tribulations which is yet to come? Can you point to any tribulation which is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an and
in the Ahadith and which is not to be encountered today? You might employ yourselves in this research to your last breaths, but you will not be able to show from
the Holy Qur’an and the Ahadith that there will ever be a time of greater tribulations than those with which we are faced today. Gentlemen! even the father of your supposed Dajjal could not have conceived of all the wickedness and
deceit that is spreading in this age.

Mankind is being led astray in a thousand ways, which would need volumes
to describe, and the opponents have been so successful in their efforts to misguide people that hearts are atremble thereat. Their sciences and their philosophy have sown the seeds of such temerity and audacity that everyone of their votaries claims to be
god. Wake up, therefore, and observe what sort of age we are witnessing and reflect how the trend of present thinking is opposed to the pure Unity of God, so
much so that the very concept of Divine power is considered absurd, and he who talks of the Divine Decree is accounted a fool. Philosophers and their ilk are spreading atheism and trying to take possession of the whole machinery of Godhead. They want to control epidemics, to avert death, to cause rain, and to cultivate at will. In short, they want everything to be in their power. It is a matter for reflection that there is
no end to all this misguidance and both wings of Islam are under assault.


secondly, there are unanimous hadiths - sunni and shia - which state that jesus will offer prayers BEHIND the mahdi, how therefore could this have happened if both jesus and the mahdi were the same person - ghulam mirza?

This brother is very simple to understand if you understand that the Massih from over 2000 years is not to come back, for if he did he would be one that is a Jew.

The hadith are correct the Massih will come but he will be under the banner of Islam. The mahdi is the spiritual faith of the Holy Prophet Mohammad, it is through the Mahdi that the true light of The Holy prophet is to shine through the world again, and it is no other faith other then Islam that will be foremost and at the front, thus the hadith are clearly saying that Islam will be the religion under which the Massih will come to not a christian or Jewish faith, thus the reformation of the massih will be to reform Islam and the Massih himself will appear under the banner of Islam.



indeed no muslim is questioning the validity of the ayats, but the quran also mentions prophets who lived much longer than 2normal" lives - for example noah who lived almost a thousand years, the companions (now sleepers) in the cave who will awaken at the final battle, who lived over 300 years before their sleep, khizr the teacher of moses' secrets, who is still alive...why therefore is it impossible that jesus could also be alive still?

Brother see this you are trying to point out, first you tell me if you were a hindu and you said this I could understnad as Hindus believe in many Gods with great powers and extra ordinary life. Though in relaity have you ever seen a man live for more then 150 years or so? Do you think in the normal law of nature this is possible?

I understand anything is possible under God's will but why would go out of his way and give other prophets such long lifes but the greatest prophet of all our master the Holy prophet only a mere existence of 60 odd years. This is not right, the greatest prophet of all lives a few years and all prophets that are under him live linger then him and Jesus is given so much importance that he is given a seat in heaven all alive and ready for battle?

The actaul meaning of these time frames for these prophets is the length of time there teaching stayed with there people. Those teaching can be attributed as almost the person who brought them to be alive in spirit with them. A physical existence did not and will nto happen for any man.


The prophets miracles were numerous brother. for ease and simplicity i will mention only one:

taken from the nahjul balagha, the collection of the sermons of imam ali, and almost universally accepted as reliable narrations by most sects in islam:

I was with him when a party of the Quraysh came to him and said to him, "O' Muhammad, you have made a big claim which none of your fore-fathers or those of your family have made. We ask you one thing; if you give us an answer to it and show it to us, we will believe that you are a prophet and a messenger, but if you cannot do it, we will know that you are a sorcerer and a liar."

The Messenger of Allah said: "What do you ask for?" They said: "Ask this tree to move for us, even with its roots, and stop before you." The Prophet said, "Verily, Allah has power over everything. If Allah does it for you, will you then believe and stand witness to the truth?" They said "Yes". Then he said, "I shall show you whatever you want, but I know that you won't bend towards virtue, and there are among you those who will be thrown into the pit, and those who will form parties (against me)." Then the Holy Prophet said: "O' tree, if you do believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, and know that I am the Prophet of Allah, come up with your roots and stand before me with the permission of Allah." By Him who deputed the Prophet with truth, the tree did remove itself with its root and came with a great humming sound and a flapping like the flapping of the wings of birds, till it stopped before the Messenger of Allah while some of its twigs came down onto my shoulders, and I was on the right side of the Holy Prophet.

When the people saw this they said by way of pride and vanity. "Now you order half of it to come to you and the other half of it remain (in its place)." The Holy Prophet ordered the tree to do the same. Then half of the tree advanced towards him in an amazing manner and with greater humming. It was about to touch the Prophet of Allah. Then they said, disbelieving and revolting, "Ask this half to get back to its other half and be as it was." The Prophet ordered it and it returned. Then I said, "O' Prophet of Allah, I am the first to believe in you and to acknowledge that the tree did what it did just now with the command of Allah, the Sublime, in testimony to your Prophethood and to heighten your word. Upon this all the people shouted, "Rather a sorcerer, a liar; it is wonderful sorcery, he is very adept in it. Only a man like this (pointing to me) can stand testimony to you in your affairs."
link (http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/191.htm)

how then, did the people know that their prophets were real, and not a fraud? for example a few days after the prophet passed away an imposter called mohalamine announced HE was a prophets incarnation and demanded followers. how therefore would the people at that time know he was fake?

Brother this miracle you have quoted this is hadith and not all hadith are true. Why was such a great Miracle of the Holy prophet not given as evidence in the Quran when great Miracles of Jesus were?



I will answer the rest of your questions as well, I have written a lot and it has taken some time so bear with me inshallah the final few question you have raised I shall cover them as well.

[tannah]

But I know this is not Islam. Islam is kindness and compassion. Islam is strong faith in the existence of Allah, though unseen, and belief that the Qur'an is a revelation from the One True God to us.

I think I get it now. These Gods are like the Mafia. They each have their turf, and protect it by writing a book which is their Word. You gets the Christian patch, and the Muslim patch. Generally speaking it ain't wise to cross over to the other side's patch. Big Bang Boom Pow Scrunch Zock, and all that.

[islamvslizards]

I shall go through your questions and responses one by one and hope inshallah by the grace of Allah that you will be able to see what is very apparent.

thanks bro. i cant tell you how refreshing it is to have an intelligent conversation on this forum which actually stretches my grey cells for once lol :D


In relation to revelation from God, Hadhrat massiah Maud had thousands of revelations from God, for it was as if the fountain of gods revelation had opened upon him. In terms of Miracles, his revelations from God were absolute miracles.

can you provide me 5 - 10 of these revelations/ miracles, and if they were independently witnessed by people who were not his followers? we will discuss them.


When the Holy Quran says that Jesus raised people from the dead by the will of god, this is very much so explained by hadhrat Massiah Maud as he did the same, I shall post his word below:

From his book Essence of Islam Volume 2;

"Then, a long time afterwards, it so happened that the
son of Nawab Sardar Muhammad ‘Ali Khan, a nobleman
of Malir Kotla, fell seriously ill in Qadian, and his
life was almost despaired of. He beseeched me for

prayer. So I retired to my Bait-ud-Du‘a60 and prayed
for him. After I had prayed I learned that his death had
been decreed and that it was futile to pray at the time.
Upon this I said: ‘Lord, if the prayer is not to be accepted,
then I intercede on his behalf that You may
cure him for my sake.’ These words involuntarily escaped
my lips but I was afterwards filled with remorse
for having uttered them. Immediately after this I received
the revelation:

‘Who can dare to intercede without His permission?’

I fell silent after hearing this revelation. Hardly a minute
had passed before I received the following revelation:

‘You are granted permission to intercede.’

I then prayed fervently and I could feel that this time the
prayer would not go unanswered. The boy recovered
that very day, nay that very moment, and it was as if
he had come out of his grave. I know for a fact that
the miracles of Jesusas, whereby he gave life to the
dead, were no greater than this. I am grateful to God
that many miracles of this kind have been demonstrated
at my hands."

brother this is no proof at all! one mans testimony of something only he apparantely witnessed?

look, if he did indeed perform miracles, then they had to be things that:

(1) science could not explain and/or
(2) independently witnessed, by people who were not his followers, but who accepted that it was genuine.

the above does not fulfill either criteria does it? something he claims only he witnessed? if i was to say "i prayed for the credit crunch and it happened", because there was no apparant evidence against me, does that make it true?


You are right this verse explaining that when Allah will ask the prophets to whome people had likened to God on the day of judgement if they had really told them they were God or children of God.

so then why did you use it as proof that jesus is dead?


Well Brother how can a man who was sitting in heaven alive say that he did not witness this while as you beleive him to be still alive, is he not witnessing all that the Christians have made him into even to this day?

brother we do not believe he is in "heaven" any more than we believe that the mahdi is in heaven. all we know is that they are in a state that we cannot understand. i suggest you read the quranic ayats which describe the story of the ashaab-e-qahf for a similar situation.

secondly, if you notice, allah is asking jesus about his actions while he was amongst his followers. not after his ghaybat. hence the reply of jesus i.e. "I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me ", how could jesus convey what he was commanded to do if dead/ not among his followers?


In relation to your belief should he have not said in this verse instead that even though I came down from heaven and told them I am not God they still did not believe me.

no, it seems apparant, and most logical, that allah is questioning jesus about the time he spent amongst his followers. if you have this in mind, and read the ayats again, it becomes instantly recognisable that this is indeed the case no?


How can on the day of judgement Hadrhat Isa miss such an important aspect of his coming back down from heaven and making all the christians muslims. I mean if a man comes down from the sky with two angels carrying him down then obviously the whole world will believe in his truth, and so he will not have to tell God on judgment day that you caused me to die and I could not witness what they were upto.

brother this is twisting things :) what you are basically saying is - how can jesus return at the end times, and why didnt his return at end times stop his companions when he was amongst them from not making him into a god :) this is not logical a question. the actions of his immediate followers who diefy him is obviously what he is talking about, not the people at the end of time.


It is so clear in the Holy Quran that Hadhrat Isa died and did not return and that on the day of judgment the day of reconing he tells God that I told them what you told me to tell them and after I died I could'nt witness what they were saying about me or making me into.

if you notice the ayats in their correct context, you will see that they are referring to his followers when he was amongst them, eg asking to see miracles, then the ayat IMMEDIATELY changes to allah asking hazrat isa (As) did he ask THEM (i.e. his followers) to diefy him, to which jesus will reply "i only conveyed what you commanded me, i am not witness to what they (i.e. my followers when i was amongst them, then after i left them) did".


I don't say that transmigartion of the soul had occurred and that the sould of Jesus had gone into Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.

The spiritual coming in the sense of the massiah means that the spiritual mission of the Second coming is almost exactly for the same purpose as was of Jesus.

Jesus came to reform the Jews, they had gone astray from there true teachings, as exactly the same spritiual mission of the promised Massiah but this time it is for the muslims who have gone astray from there teachings.

ok, so let me understand this:

- jesus came to reform the jews, so christians should really be better jews, not christians
- mirza ghulam came to reform the muslims - by creating a totally new sect?

by this argument, isnt mirza ghulam the polar opposite of jesus? jesus came to reform, not create a new religion, mirza ghulam created a new religion?

what teachings did mirza ghulam correct? specifically

- the prayer, how to do it
- the hajj
- khums
- tafsir of the quran.

there are others where sunnis and shias and other sects differ, how did he correct these 4 things, and what evidence did he use to do so?


Now firstly as I have explained earlier as a muslim one needs to clear his heart and understand the quran when it informs us that Jesus has died

yet the quran itself is testimony that if allah wills, he can extend life for as long as he wishes? and even provides examples?

[29.14] And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.

and the companions (sleepers) in the cave:

[18.25] And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine.
[18.26] Say: Allah knows best how long they remained; to Him are (known) the unseen things of the heavens and the earth; how clear His sight and how clear His hearing! There is none to be a guardian for them besides Him, and He does not make any one His associate in His Judgment.

of course there are more if you require them.


I shall give some quotes from hadtih, which clearly indicate that the Massih and Imam mahdi were to be the same person:

"What will be your condition when the son of Mary will descend among you and he will be your Imam from among yourselves."
(Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Anbiya)

"There is no Mahdi except Isa."
(Ibn Maja, Bab Shiddatuz Zaman)

"Whosoever lives from among you shall meet Isa, son of Mary who is Imam, Mahdi, Arbiter and Judge."
(Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411)

The following hadith give a time of around when the mahdi is to come, now this time has already come and gone.

"When one thousand and two hundred and forty years will pass, God will raise Mahdi."
(An-Najmus Saqih, Vol. 2, p. 209)

brother, i think you will find the overwhelming number of hadiths say the opposite. you cant ignore 99% of hadiths that say one thing, which are found in both shia and sunni hadiths, then only quote 4 hadiths - found only in sunni books - and use that as evidence?

i could just as easily provide (with actual chains), no less than NINE hadiths from jalaluddin suyutis OWN BOOKS which say the opposite:

Naim Abu Said relates that the Messenger of Allah (saas) said: THE PERSON BEHIND WHOM ‘ISA (AS) SON OF MARYAM WILL PERFORM THE PRAYER (SALAT) IS OF MY LINE [HAZRAT MAHDI (AS)].


Ibn Abi Shayba relates from Ibn Shirin in his Musannaf. He said:
HAZRAT MAHDI (AS) IS OF THIS COMMUNITY AND WILL ACT AS IMAM TO THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS).


Naim Ibn Hammad relates from Abdullah Ibn Amr. He said: HAZRAT MAHDI (AS) IS HE WHO WILL DESCEND UPON ‘ISA (AS) SON OF MARYAM AND BEHIND WHOM HE WILL PERFORM THE PRAYER (SALAT).

Bukhari and Muslim relate from Abu Huraira. He said: WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN ‘ISA (AS) SON OF MARYAM DESCENDS AMONG YOU AND WHEN YOUR IMAM IS HAZRAT MAHDI (AS)?

Abu Naim narrates from Jabir, saying, the Messenger of Allah (saas) said: ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam will descend from the sky and Hazrat Mahdi (as), the spiritual leader of Muslims, will say to him, ‘Come and lead us in prayer (salat).’ BUT THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL SAY, AS A BLESSING ON THAT COMMUNITY FROM ALLAH, ‘NO. SOME OF YOU ARE THE COMMANDERS OF OTHERS. (HE WILL MAKE HAZRAT MAHDI (AS) THE IMAM.)

Ibn Majah, Ravyani, Ibn Huzayma, Abu Avana, Haqim and Abu Naim relate from Abu Imama. He said the Messenger of Allah (saas) addressed us. Referring to the Dajjal, he said:...When the imam has taken his place in the front row to lead the morning prayer (salat), he will see that ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam has descended that morning. This imam [Hazrat Mahdi (as)] will then withdraw to the back so the Prophet ‘Isa (as) can pass to the front. THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL PLACE HIS HANDS ON HIS SHOULDERS AND SAY: “GO TO THE FRONT AND LEAD THE PRAYER (SALAT). BECAUSE THE CALL TO PRAYER HAS BEEN MADE FOR YOU.” AT THIS, THE IMAM [HAZRAT MAHDI (AS)] WILL LEAD THEM IN PRAYER.

Abu Amr and Dani in the Sunan relate from Hudhaifa. He said the Messenger of Allah (saas) said: Hazrat Mahdi (as) will see that ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam has descended, and it will be as if water is dropping from his hair. And Hazrat Mahdi (as) will say to him, “Go to the front and lead the people in prayer (salat).” BUT THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL SAY: “THE CALL TO PRAYER HAS BEEN MADE FOR YOU.” AT THIS, HE WILL PRAY BEHIND ONE OF MY CHILDREN [(HAZRAT MAHDI(AS)].”

Abu Amr and Dani in the Sunan relate from Jabir Ibn Abdullah that he said: The Messenger of Allah (saas) said: During the Dawn of the New Age, one from my community [Hazrat Mahdi (as)] will struggle for the true faith in Jerusalem until the coming of the Prophet ‘Isa (as). Hazrat Mahdi (as) will then say: “O PROPHET OF ALLAH! Come to the front and lead us in prayer.” THE PROPHET JESUS (AS) WILL SAY, “ONE OF THIS COMMUNITY [(HAZRAT MAHDI (AS)] IS THE COMMANDER OF THE OTHERS.


Ahmad, Muslim, Ibn Jurayr and Ibn Hibban relate from Jabir Ibn Abdullah that he said: A group from my community will strive for the victory of truth (will wage war against the Dajjal) until Doomsday. And when ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam descends from the sky, their Commander (Hazrat Mahdi (as), their spiritual leader) will say to him, “Come and lead us in prayer (salat).” But he, as a blessing on the community from Allah, will say: “ONE OF YOU IS THE COMMANDER OF THE OTHERS.” (IN OTHER WORDS, HAZRAT MAHDI (AS), YOUR IMAM, IS AMONG YOU, AND IT IS HE WHO MUST LEAD YOU IN PRAYER.)

Jalaladdin as-Suyuti, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman, p. 78, Translated by: Müşerref Gözcü - Kahraman Publications

also, there are these (proven) reliable hadiths which back this up:


"As we know, the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will appear and destroy the Dajjal intellectually. It is a fact that THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL NOT TAKE OVER COMMAND (THE SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP OF MUSLIMS) FROM HAZRAT MAHDI (AS) BECAUSE THEIR LEADER (Muslims’ spiritual leader) IS FROM THE QURAYSH. These two will be present among people, such that THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL BE HIS VIZIER, NOT HIS COMMANDER. IT IS FOR THESE REASONS THAT HE WILL PRAY BEHIND AND FOLLOW HAZRAT MAHDI (AS)."

Muhammad Ibn Rasul Al-Husayn Al Barzanji, ’Portents of Doomsday’ Pamuk Publications, p. 185


When their leader is Hazrat Mahdi (as), a pure individual, they will seek shelter in Jerusalem. At a time when their imam passes to the front to lead them in the morning prayer (salat), they will see that ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam, has descended in the morning. Hazrat Mahdi (as) will withdraw to allow the Prophet ‘Isa (as) to pass to the front. THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL PUT HIS HANDS ON HIS SHOULDERS AND SAY TO HIM, “GO TO THE FRONT AND LEAD THE PRAYER (SALAT). BECAUSE THE CALL TO PRAYER HAS BEEN MADE FOR YOU....”

Related from Abu Rafi; Imam Sharani, Death, Doomsday, the Hereafter and the Portents of the End Times, Bedir Publications, p. 495-496

from sahih muslim itself:

... Hazrat Mahdi (as), the spiritual leader of Muslims, will say to ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam: “Come and lead us in prayer (salat).” AT THIS, ‘ISA (AS) WILL SAY, “NO. AS A BLESSING ON THIS COMMUNITY FROM ALLAH SOME OF YOU ARE THE COMMANDERS OF OTHERS.” (He will bestow the position of imam on Hazrat Mahdi (as).)

Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 209



Also brother explained in hadhrat massiah mauds book, Taudih-e-Maram (Elaucidation of objection) he has given reference to a hadith in Bukhari in which the Holy prophet has given a description of Hadhrat Isa but also in Bukhari he has given a very different description of the massih.

there are many, many contradictions in all the hadith books. this is not proof.


The massiah had come to reform and to put things right when they had gone bad for Islam.

please see my previous points re: how to pray, go on hajj etc etc. how did mirza ghulam reform or change those main acts?


Now in relation to the Dajjal, the dajjal has arrived sometime ago brother, have you lokked around and seen the advancements man has made in the last hundred years or so? The description of the Dajjal was given at a time when people could not comprehend the advances in techonology, therefore the explanation given by the Holy prophet was put in a manner that they could understand. Brother in relaity you will not see a one eyed monster appear, the one eyed monster is already hear. The one eye represents the eye for the material world. Below I shall put the words of the Hadhrat Massiah Maud in relation to this:

thats great bro. how did mirza ghulam defeat the dajjal?


This brother is very simple to understand if you understand that the Massih from over 2000 years is not to come back, for if he did he would be one that is a Jew.

why do you say that?


Brother see this you are trying to point out, first you tell me if you were a hindu and you said this I could understnad as Hindus believe in many Gods with great powers and extra ordinary life. Though in relaity have you ever seen a man live for more then 150 years or so? Do you think in the normal law of nature this is possible?

brother be careful. you are denying the words of the very quran itself. see the ayats i posted earlier.


I understand anything is possible under God's will but why would go out of his way and give other prophets such long lifes but the greatest prophet of all our master the Holy prophet only a mere existence of 60 odd years. This is not right, the greatest prophet of all lives a few years and all prophets that are under him live linger then him and Jesus is given so much importance that he is given a seat in heaven all alive and ready for battle?

age is irrelevant to rank. the companions in the cave lived over 300 years before their sleep, yet they werent even prophets at all!


The actaul meaning of these time frames for these prophets is the length of time there teaching stayed with there people. Those teaching can be attributed as almost the person who brought them to be alive in spirit with them. A physical existence did not and will nto happen for any man.

im afraid the quran says the opposite then, to what mirza ghulam teaches.


Brother this miracle you have quoted this is hadith and not all hadith are true. Why was such a great Miracle of the Holy prophet not given as evidence in the Quran when great Miracles of Jesus were?

the book, nahjul balagha, was comiled by the scholar shaikh radhy. for an ideas as to his reliablity, please see this article

Misconceptions about Nahjul Balagha

No scholar of Sunni or Shi'a profession has questioned the genuineness and authenticity of Nahjul Balagha for more than two centuries. The first person to raise doubts about its attribution to Amir al-Mu'minin was Ibn Khallikan (d. 681/1282), who, without referring to any author or source,made the following remarks about the authorship of Nahjul Balagha : People have different opinions about the compiler of Nahjul Balagha , a collection of the utterances of al-'Imam 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) There is difference as to whether it was compiled by al-Sharif al-Murtada or his brother al-Radi. It is also said that it is not at all the composition of 'Ali (as) and that the one who compiled it and attributed it to him made it himself; but Allah knows the truth. These remarks were made in Wafayat al-aya'n in connection with the account of the life and work of al-Sharif al-Murtada, al-Radi's elder brother. Ibn al-'Athir al Jazari (555-630/1160-1232) in Mukhtasar al-Wafayat, Salah al-Din al-Safadi (d. 764/1362) in al-Wafi bi al-wafayat, al-'Allamah al-Yafi'i(d. 768/1366) in Mir'at al Jinan, and Ibn al-'Imad in Shadharat al-dhahab were content just to repeat Ibn Khallikan's conjecture without bothering to substantiate it. Al-'Allamah al-Dhahabi (d. 748/1347) in Mizan ul-'i'tidal was the first person to pick up the audacity to raise the unfounded doubt to a degree of certainty a century after Ibn Khallikan. He wrote in his account of al-Murtada: Al Sharif al-Murtada, who is accused of fabricating Nahjul Balagha , was a scholar of considerable knowledge. Whosoever sees his book Nahjul Balagha would come to believe that it was falsely attributed to Amir al-Mu'minin (as), because it contains open abuse rather than downgrading of the two caliphs Abu Bakr and 'Umar. Contradictions and mean matters have also crept into it, which do not conform with the spirit of the Companions of the Quraysh and our knowledge of the later Companions. One is convinced that the major part of this book is forged and unauthentic. Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 748/1347) repeated al-Dhahabi's objections without bothering to probe deeper into the matter. The most interesting and at the same time the weakest part of the objections concerns ascription of the authorship of Nahjul Balagha to al-Murtada. The objectors belonged to the Umayyad West and had deep prejudices against Shiii scholars, and perhaps under the impact of Umayyad propaganda their prejudice was so deep-rooted that even their scholarship could not rise above it. Among the four contemporaries of al-Radi and al-Murtada, three, that is, al-Tha'alibi, al-Najashi (d. 450/1058), and al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463/1071) have given accounts of both the brothers. Al Shaykh al-Tusi did not give any account of al-Radi in al-Fihrist or al-Rijal, but he did not count Nahjul Balagha among the works of al-Murtada, which dispel any conjecture attributing its authorship to him, because al-Tusi was very close to him as his student. Al-Tha'alibi and al-Khatib al-Baghdadi did not mention Nahjul Balagha either in the account of al-Murtada or that of al-Radi.Al-Najashi in unambiguous terms attributed Nahjul Balagha to al-Radi. Al-Tusi's exclusion of Nahjul Balagha from the works of al-Murtada,and al-Najashi's mention of it among the works of al-Radi are sufficient to prove that it was without any doubt a work of al-Radi. The objectors, who could not even determine authorship of the book exactly, depended on nothing but their whim to raise doubts about its authenticity. A more convincing proof of al-Radi's authorship of Nahjul Balagha can be found in his own other works in which he has mentioned it. Those books are the following: 1. Khasa'is al- 'A'immah: A manuscript of this work of al-Radi is in Rida Library Rampur (India) which reveals that Fadl Allah ibn 'Ali al- Husayn al-Rawandi (d. 555/1160) accepted Khasa'is as al-Radi's work. In this book, as quoted above, al-Radi has mentioned his intention of compiling Nahj al-balaghah. 2. Haqa'iq al-tanzil: Only the fifth part of this book is accessible to us. Its authorship is unanimously attributed to al-Radi. On page 167 of this book al-Radi makes this remark: Anybody who needs a proof of our claim should refer to our book Nahj al-balaghah and think upon its contents. We have compiled all forms and genres of the utteranees of Amir al-Mu'minin (as) in this book, which comprises sermons, letters, aphorisms, and admonitions, and is divided into three independent parts, each containing a specific genre. 3. Majazat al-'athar al-Nabawiyyah: Al-Najashi and others have included this book among al-Radi's works. At two places in this book al-Radi has referred to Nah; al-balagha as a work of his own compilation. It is important to note that even Ibn Khallikan, al-Dhahabi and Ibn Hajar did not question the authenticity of the attribution of Nahj al-balaghah in its entirety to'Ali (as). They were mainly skeptical of those parts which were critical of the Caliphs Abu Bakr and 'Umar. But if we find such utterances and writings of Amir al-Mu'minin (as) in both Shi'i and non-Shi'i sources earlier than Nahjal-balaghah,baseless-ness of al-Dhahabi's and Ibn Hajar's objections can be conclusively proved. Let us again refer to Istinad-e Nahj al-balagha by 'Arshi, a contemporary Sunni scholar of India. With respect to the harshest of the sermons concerning the issue of the caliphate, known as al-Khutbat aldhiqshiqiyyah, 'Arshi refers to the following early sources in which the sermon had occurred: 1. Abu Ja'far Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid al-Barqi (d.274/887) has quoted it in full in al-Mahasin wa al-'adab. 2. Ibrahim ibn Muhammad al-Thaqafi al-Kufi (d. 283/896) quoted it in al-Gharat. In his notes on al-Gharat, Sayyid Jalal al-Din Muhaddith,quoting Imtiyaz 'Ali Khan 'Arshi, says that this khutbah is not found in it; even Ibn Abi al-Hadid and al-'Allamah Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi (1037-1110 or 1111/1627-1698 or 99) did not refer to al-Gharat as an early source of this sermon. 3. Abu 'Ali Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab al Jubba'i al-Basri al-Mu'tazili(d. 303/915 -16) narrated it. 4. Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Qubbah al-Razi (a teacherof al- Mufid and a pupil of Abu al-Qasim al-Balkhi, a Mu'tazili in his youth) quoted it in al-Insaf. 5. Abu al Qasim 'Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Mahmud al-Ka'bi al-Balkhi al-Mu'tazili (d. 319/931) in al-'Insaf. 6. Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn 'Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Musa ibn Babawayh al-Qummi, known as alShaykh al-Saduq (d. 318/930), has quoted it in two of his books: Ilal al Sharayi' and Ma'ani al-'akhbar. 7. Abu 'Abd Allah Muhammad ibn al-Nu'man, known as al-Shaykh al-Mufid(d. 413/ 1022) inKitdb al-'irshad. 8. Shaykh al-Ta'ifah Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Tusi (d. 460/1068) in al-'Amali. 'Arshi adds that al Shaykh al Saduq has narrated this Khutbah on the authority of two different chains of narrators: Narrated to us Muhammad ibn 'Ali Majalawayh from his uncle Muhammad Ibn al-Qasim, he from Ahmad ibn 'Abd Allah al-Barqi he from his father, he from Ibn Abi 'Umayr, he from Aban ibn 'Uthman he from 'Aban ibn Taghlib, he from 'Ikrimah, he from 'Abd Allah ibn al-'Abbas. ('Ilal al-sharayi' and Ma'anial-' akhbar) Narrated to us Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Ishaq al-Taliqani, from 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn Yahya al Jalludi, from Abu 'Abd Allah Ahmad ibn 'Ammar ibn Khalid, from Yahya ibn 'Abd al-Hamid al- Hammani, from 'Isa ibn Rashid, from 'Ali ibn Khuzaymah, from 'Ikrimah, from Ibn al-'Abbas. (Ma'ani al 'akhbar) Al-Sayyid al-Radi has not quoted the entire chain of narrators, and was content to remark that the sermon was popularly known as 'al-Shiqshiqiyyah ', while his teacher al-Mufid narrates both the chain of narrators and the story behind its narration. This is indicative of the fact that this sermon was so famous in those days that al-Radi did not find it necessary to prove its veracity by quoting the chain of its narrators. Surprisingly, the same famous sermon was used by his and 'Ali's opponents to question his veracity and to malign him by accusing him and/or his brother of forging it. The kind of criticism Ibn Khallikan and his followers dabbled in not only discredits them as researchers but also makes their other works suspicious in the eyes of impartial and objective students of history. Those who could not find any of the above-mentioned books to cross-check the veracity of Nahj al-balaghah had failed miserably even in determining correctly its authorship. Al-Shaykh al-Mufid has collected a number of 'Ali's speeches in al-'Irshad concerning the issue of the succession to the Prophet (saw) and 'Ali's criticism of the ways and means adopted by his opponents to deprive him of the caliphate. The famous Khutbah known as al-Shiq-shiqiyyah begins with the following preface: (A group of traditionists report by a variety of chains of authority (turuq) on the authority of Ibn al-'Abbas, who said:) I [i.e. Ibn al-'Abbas, was with the Commander of the Faithful at al-Rahabah I mentioned the [matter of] Caliphate and those who had preeeded him. He breathed heavily and said: "By God, Ibn Abi Quhatah took on...." This khutbah ends with the following words: Then you would have found that your world is more insignificant in my eyes than a goat's snot. At this point 'Ali's speech was interrupted by a man from Kufah. Ibn al-'Abbas, after narrating the text of the speech, adds: I have never regretted anything nor felt such distress like the distress l felt at losing the rest of the speeeh of the Commander of the Faithful, peace be on him. When he finished reading the letter, I said: "Commander of the Faithful would you continue your speech from the point which you reached?" He answered: "In no way, in no way. It was like foam on the camel's mouth (shiqshiqah) as it opens its mouth to bellow and then falls silent." Apart from al-'Irshad this khutbah, as claimed by 'Arshi, is found in other sources also. In no way can it be dubbed as al-Radi's or al-Murtada's fabrication. Sayyid Hibat al-Din al-Shahristani, in Mahuwa Nahj al-balaghah, has quoted different versions of al-Khutbat al-Shiqshiqiyyah from: Nathral-durar wa nuzhat al-'adab by the vizier Abu Sa'id al-'Abi; al-'Irshad by al- Shaykh ai-Mufid; al-Mahasin wa al-'adab by al-Barqi; al-Saduq in Ila'l al-sharayi';and a book of al-Jalludi. All the versions have minor differences, which indicate that the source from which al-Radi quoted this sermon was other than these four. After enumerating the earlier works containing this khutbah,Hibat al-Din al- Shahristani points out that Ibn 'Abd Rabbih, one of tbe compilers of al-Khutbat al-Shiqshiqiyyah, was a follower of the Banu Umayyah and a staunch admirer of the third caliph 'Uthman ibn writes: 'Affan. Much earlier than Ibn Khallikan made his remark questioning the authenticity of the attribution of Nahj al- balaghah, certain doubts had come to circulate as indicated by Ibn Abi al-Hadid al-Mu'tazili (d. 555/1257), who referred to a discussion concerning the attribution of al-Khutbat al- Shiqshiqiyyah with his teacher Abu al-Khayr Musaddiq ibn Shabib [sic. Shayb] al-Wasiti (d. 605/1208), who said: I read this khutbah in the presenee of Abu Muhammad 'Abd Allah ibn Ahmad, known as Ibn al-Khashshab (493 -567/1099-1172)... and asked him if he considered this khutbah to be a forged one and not of 'Ali (as). Ibn al-Khashshab said: By God, I am convinced that it is from 'Ali and I am as sure of it as I am convineed of your truthfulness. Al-Wasiti said to Ibn al-Khashshab: "A group is of the view that this khutbah was fabricated by al-Radi, may God be pleased with him." Ibn al-Khashshab said: Is it not beyond the eloquence of al-Radi or any other? How could he speak from such a high level of spirituality in such a (forceful) style? We are well acquainted with al-Radi's writings, his style and his technique. I have assessed both his poetry and prose, these words as compared to those of al- Radi are so different that there is no question of confusing them with his writings." He further said: By God, I have read this sermon in books written two hundred years before the birth of al-Radi. Yes, of course, I have seen it written in many books. I can identify this khutbah very well and know that which of the 'ulama' and men of letters quoted it (in his work) mueh before al-Radi's father was born." (Sharh Nahj al-balaghah, vol. I) On another occasion, in his Sharh Nahj al-balaghah, Ibn Abi al-Hadid A group of blind followers of their own whims and wishes is of the opinion that the best part of Nahj al-balagha is fabricated and forged by a group of Shi'i writers and is something new. Most of them consider a part of it to be the product of al-Radi's pen or of others. But this group consists of prejudiced people, whose heart's vision is blocked by partiality and who have deviated from the right and straight path of truth; they have strayed from truth due to perversion, lack of knowledge, and unfamiliarity with literature and poetry. (vol. 1, p. 543) At another place he writes about the words of Amir al-Mu'minin (as): His eloquence is such that he is the leader of the eloquent and the guide and master of orators. It is said about his ulterances that his words are below the Word of the Creator only, but over and above the words of all creatures; and from him the world has learnt the art of speech and rhetoric. There were people in the age of al-Radi himself whose hearts and eyes were sealed in such a manner that they attributed some of 'Ali's utterances to Mu'fiwiyah. Al-Radi's commentary on the following khutbah,is important: His comment, are as follows: People with no ability to understand literature aseribe it to Mu'awiyah whereas these are undoubtedly the words of Amir al- Mu'minin. How can dirt compare with pure gold?... 'Amr ibn Bahr al Jahiz, a critic gifted with insight and a distinct sensibility, has probed the matter minutely. He has included this khutbah in al-Bayan wa al-tabyin, and has mentioned those who attributed it to Mu'awiyah. Subsequently he says: "This speech is very much like the speeches of 'Ali (as) and is in conformity with the great man's classification of people, and it also corresponds with his manner of depicting the people's modes of behaving in anger, under oppression and waywardness, and in the state of dissimulation and fear. Similarly, al-Radi refers to his sources on a number of occasions,and also gives an account of the circumstances that were responsible for the mood and theme of a certain sermon. He has referred to: al Jahiz; al-Waqidi; Abu Ja'far al-'Iskafi; Hisham ibn al-Kalbi; Sa'id ibn Yahya ai-'Umawi, the author of al-Maghazi; Abu 'Ubayd al- Qasim ibn Salam; al-Tabari; Tha'lab; Ibn al-'A'rabi; al-Mubarrad, and many others. How could an author who allegedly forged the utterances and writings of Amir al- Mu'minin (as) be so honest in acknowledging his indebtedness to his predecessors? Those who raised doubts about the contents of Nahj al-balagha were unaware of the high status and prestige of its compiler, both in the society and in the academic circles. A man of his eminence could not even think of fabricating sermons and letters in the name of al-'Imam 'Ali (as). Had any such attempt been made by anybody, Shi'i scholars themselves would have been the first to reject it, as an anthology of poetry attributed to al-'Imam 'Ali (as) (Diwan-e 'Ali) was never accepted by the majority of Shi'i scholars as authentic. Some other such works, for example, the commentary on the Quran attributed to al- Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (as) or Fiqh al-Rida attributed to al Imam al-Rida (as),are at issue among Shi'i scholars. But no one among al-Radi's contemporaries or from the successive generations of Sunni or Shi'i 'ulama' ever questioned Nahj al-balaghah's authenticity for more than two centuries. Regarding the contents of Nahj al-balaghah the Muslim scholars of all shades of opinion never doubted al-Radi's veracity. They were aware of the presence of earlier sources of al-'Imam 'Ali's utterances. There is abundant reliable evidence in support of the existence of such collections in the first and second centuries of Hijrah, from which 'Abd al-Hamid ibn Yahyfi, Ibn al- Muqaffa', and Zayd ibn 'Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn 'Ali ibn Abi Talib had quoted al-'Imam 'Ali's sermons and letters. In the third and fourth centuries, too, several collections of 'Ali's khutab and rasa'il were compiled, some of which have been already referred to above. Ibn Abi al-Hadid (d. 655 or 656/1257 or 58); Taqi al-Din Ahmad, known as Ibn Taymiyyah (661-728/1263-1328); and his pupil Salah al-Din al-Safadi (d.764/1362 -63) accepted Nahj al-balaghah as a genuine collection of al Imam 'Ali's words. The former not only wrote one of the most famous commentaries on it, but also repudiated all doubts about its authenticity. Ibn Taymiyyah and al-Safadi were among staunch opponents and critics of the Shi'ah, but both of them verified the authenticity of Nahj al-balagha and the veracity of al-Sharif al-Radi. Al-Safadi, in the account of al-Radi, writes: People are of the view that Nahj al-balaghah is his own writing. But I heard my teacher, al-'Imam al-'Allamah Taqi al-Din Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah say: "Nahj al-balaghah is not al-Sayyid al-Radi's product. What in this book is the utterance of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) is known, and whatever is from al-Radi that is also known. (al-Wafi bi al-wafayat, vol. 2, p. 375) Instead of going into further details of the controversy about the authenticity of Nahj al- balaghah's ascription and forwarding more evidence against those who created doubts about it, I would recommend the keen reader to consult al-Mu'jam al-mufahras li alfaz Nahj al-balaghah, edited by al-Sayyid Kazim al-Muhammadi and al-Shaykh Muhammad al-Dashti, who have done a commendable job in preparing a very comprehensive bibliography of the sources of the book along with a detailed item- by-item list of the sources of each and every sermon, letter, and saying contained in Nahj al-balaghah. Moreover, since the death of al-Radi scholars of eminence have been always interested in writing commentaries on Nahj al-balagha, which is another very strong proof of its authenticity. So many Sunni, Mu'tazili, and Shi'i scholars would not have taken pains to comment upon al Radi's own fabrications. 'Ali Naqi Munzawi, in the catalogue of the library of Mishkat, donated to Tehran University, has enumerated 33 narrators of al-'Imam 'Ali's utterances before al-Radi and fourteen after him till the tenth Hijrah century. Danish Pizhoh, in his preface to Farman-e Malik Ashtar, edited by Husayn 'Alawi Awi, has given a list of its early commentators. Sayyid 'Abd al-Zahra' al-Khatib, in Masadir Nahj al balagha wa asaniduh, has counted thirty-three books written concerning the sources of Nahj al- balaghah. Hundreds of manuscripts of Nahj al-balaghah in various libraries of the world and even a greater number of the manuscripts of other earlier works containing al-'Imam 'Ali's utterances invite all seekers of truth to trace the sources and ascertain the authenticity of Nahj al-balaghah. There are also numerous documents available which contain certificates and testimonials issued by eminent scholars to their pupils authorizing them to narrate the contents of Nahj al-balaghah along with the permission to narrate ahadith of the Prophet (saw) and the Imams (as). This is enough to show that Nahj al-balaghah has been considered to be of equal value in reliability with the most authentic compendiums of hadith. The narration of Nahj al-balagha's traditions had started during the lifetime of al-Radi. Qutb al-Din al-Rawandi (d. 573/1177) in the preface of his commentary on Nahj al- balaghoh, refers to a daughter of al-Sharif al Murtada, who had studied the book under al-Radi himself and was authorized to narrate its traditions to others, and she used to narrate Nahj al-balaghah on her uncle's authority. Shaykh 'Abd al-Rahim al-Baghdadi has narrated from this learned lady of the family of the Imams (as).

so you can see, the nahjul balagha is, in fact, absolutely reliable. so if the hadith is mentioned in it, i believe it. to go against it, is to go against the greatest named scholars in all of islams history.

and for it not being in the quran, is the way the prophet read namaz in the quran?

[/quote]
I will answer the rest of your questions as well, I have written a lot and it has taken some time so bear with me inshallah the final few question you have raised I shall cover them as well.[/QUOTE]

inshallah

[zarah]

Oh thank God for intelligent, rational discourse between two respectful human beings. I'm gonna go back to the begining and read everything. :)

[pinnochio]

Can i ask you guys a question respectfully.

What is it for you guys that attracts you to this particular religion. And why you choose to follow it?

[raven200]

Can i ask you guys a question respectfully.

What is it for you guys that attracts you to this particular religion. And why you choose to follow it?

The religion Islam stands for "Peace and Submission".

If a few people represent the religion incorrectly that does not mean that the true teachings are in correct. Islam is seen as a violent and dangerous religion by the west, this is due to the Maulvi and clerics that spread lies within communities and breed hate. They use incorrect scriptures, which they say are true words of the holy prophet and make people beleive that what they are doing is correct.

Though the truth in Islam is in the greatest treasure that God has bestowed upon it and that is the Holy Quran.

If you read the quran fully you will slowly understand that the word of God does not breed hate but in fact shows fairness to all humanity and a proper conduct that humans should adhere to so that they do not take away other people rights.

The Quran teaches very basic things ranging from how an orphans rights should be maintained to how legal disputes should be dealt with.

There is immense scientific information related in the Quran, which no man could have known about 1500 years ago, I shall give few examples below:

Chapter : 4 (Al-Nisa') Verse : 120

'And assuredly I will lead them astray and assuredly I will arouse in them vain desires, and assuredly I will incite them and they will cut the ears of cattle; and assuredly I will incite them and they will alter Allah's creation.' And whoever takes Satan for a friend instead of Allah, he certainly suffers a manifest loss.

The above verse talks of the genetic modifications the scientists are now taking part in, to alter the way many things are made and changed. The above verse is what satan is saying, and it is in the Quran as a warning that these things, such as gentic modifications are not correct and are satanic and will cause more problem then good. When the Quran was written men had not the capabilities of altering creation, therefore this verse is a sign as are other verses that the Quran is from a higher source and not from man.

Chapter : 21 (Al-Anbiya') Verse : 105

'The day when We shall roll up the heavens like the rolling up of written scrolls by a scribe.' As We began the first creation, So shall We repeat it - a promise binding upon US; We shall certainly fulfil it.

The above verse is talking of how our universe is created and is expanding, and as scientist now know that the universe will expand to a point from where it will go back to the point that it started from. This is part of the big bang theory and in the Quran it is stated almost 1500 years back that the universe will one day all retract itself back to its orginal point of expansion and will start all over again.

Chapter : 23 (Al-Mu'minun) Verse : 15

Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.

No one new exactly how the child was created in the womb when the Quran was written, and it beautifully explained in the above verse how Human life is created within the womb.
Another sign that this book is from a greater source and not from man. If you check the sequence of how a baby develops in the womb from what is written in the above verse with a doctor he will tell you that this is correct, now who would have known the sequence of development than?
Read the following link, which shows how a embryo develops in the womb and you will be shocked at the accuracy of the Quran.

http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-c3852671-f7c9-43d0-8bd0-92c3329e23e9.aspx

Chapter : 39 (Al-Zumar) Verse : 7

He created you from a single being; then from that He made its mate; and He has sent down for you of the cattle eight pairs. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, through three stages of darkness. This is Allah, your Lord. His is the Kingdom. There is no god but He. Whither then are you being turned away?

According to the Quran we were created from a single being. Something which science has nowhere even began to work out, how the first humans came about. The Quran says it is from a single source. Maybe science will shed more light onto this in the future. We do know that Mary was capable of giving birth to Jesus without being touched by a man. Therefore it would probably have been a similar event in the creation of man. Which makes mankinds creation very pure like Jesus's.
Jesus's birth was a sign of the creation of man.

So from this you can see that 1500 years ago people had no idea how a child was created in the womb but the Quran explains this. Medical science had not got to a stage to understand these things. Also you will have to agree if you look into this that all medical researchers will vouch to this that the first in depth medical science was best explained by Arab doctors in books and even to this day doctors refer to these books.

The Quran is a book for mankind thus all forms of information is available within it that benefits mankind.

It restricts Muslims from drinking alcohol 1500 years ago! why? because it is evident today the damage it is doing to society. That when a man or women is drunk they have almost no sanity and in many cases some of the worst crimes have been commited under the influence of alcohol.

Same goes for drugs, anything that is addictive is prohibited to muslims. Gambling is prohibited.

Even interest is prohibited, and has it not become clear to us all in the current world economic climate the damage interest has done to society.

Thus the religion Islam when practiced truthfully has perfect guidance on how to live in harmony.

Ok moving onto another point I would like to wish all muslims Ramdhan Mubarak. This Holy month has started and I pray that the world should work towards finding god in this month, and that we all may be forgiven for our sins as this is the month where god willing if we change our bad habits god will show his mercy to us.

Also that we may continue with a truthful change in our hearts and are blessed to see the true light of Allah.

RAMDHAN MUBARAK ALL.

IslamvsLizard I shall inshalla write a response to your post tomorrow.

[raven200]

Quote IslamvsLizard

ok, so let me understand this:

- jesus came to reform the jews, so christians should really be better jews, not christians
- mirza ghulam came to reform the muslims - by creating a totally new sect?

by this argument, isnt mirza ghulam the polar opposite of jesus? jesus came to reform, not create a new religion, mirza ghulam created a new religion?

what teachings did mirza ghulam correct? specifically

- the prayer, how to do it
- the hajj
- khums
- tafsir of the quran.

there are others where sunnis and shias and other sects differ, how did he correct these 4 things, and what evidence did he use to do so?

Brother I was going to give full reply to all your questions tomorrow but reading your response again I felt that this understanding you have given about Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, needs to be corrected.

Firstly Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not on any account bring a new religion, I very much so expressed that Like Jesus had come to reform the Jews, yes to become better Jews and follow the true faith of Allah. Similarly Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has come as a reformer to reform the muslims so that they go back to the true teachings of Allah.

Ahmadies read the same Five prayers as all muslims, we read the same Kalima and not any other as other sects accuse us of making up.

If you read Hadharat Mirza Ghulam Ahmads book you can clearly see that as his name he is truely a Ghulam to the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw) may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

He defended Islam and Ahmadies to this day defend Islam and preach peace but all other sects unite against us and have declared us non muslim. Why? Because Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed that he was a prophet.

In his own words Hadhrat Mirza ghulam Ahmad Declared that the Holy Prophet Mohammad was and has finality over prophethood, and that is the prophethood that bears and brings faith and religion.

He is the seal of all prophets. Though he does explain that there is a certain level that men can still attain that is expressed as prophethood, this is not the complete prophethood like the one of Holy Prophet Mohammad but is partial, I shall paste his own words in explaining this below:


Source: Elucidation of objectives. pages; 15-24

However, if the objection is raised that since the first Messiah was a Prophet of God, the second Messiah too ought to be a Prophet, the answer is that the Holy Prophetsa did not make Prophethood as the condition precedent for the Second Messiah:

It is clearly recorded that he would be a Muslim by faith and practise the Quranic law like other Muslims. He will not claim to be anyone other than a Muslim and the Imam of Muslims. There is no doubt that Allah has appointed me, a humble person, as Muhaddath. A Muhaddath, in a way, is also a Prophet. It is true that his Prophethood is not absolute or complete, but he is, in part, a Prophet, for he has the honour of talking to God and the secrets of the unseen are revealed to him; like the messengers of God and His Prophets, the revelations he receives are free from satanic interference; he is taught the deeper meaning and essence of the Law; he is ordained exactly like Prophets and, like them, he is under obligation to openly pronounce and declare his ministry; and anyone who rejects him incurs a kind of Divine chastisement. Prophethood too requires these same characteristics to be
present in the person who claims to be a Prophet.

To the objection that the door to Prophethood is closed forever, and that the revelation which the Prophets receive has now ceased, my answer is that neither has the door to all kinds of Prophethood been completely closed, nor has every kind of revelation been stopped. The fact is that the door to Prophethood remains open to the Ummah. But let it be understood, once and for all, that the institution of Prophethood, which is forever interminable, is neither absolute nor complete but is only partial, as I have just mentioned. Another name for it is Muhaddathiyat. It is granted only through total submission to the Perfect Man who is the repository of all excellences pertaining to perfect Prophethood.

If you ask what exactly is the quality and spiritual power in which the two of us—the Messiah son of Mary and my own humble self—resemble, the answer is that it is an overall quality with which the spiritual sensibilities of the two of us have been endowed. At one end, the chain stretches deep down below, and at the other, reaches high above.

The descent signifies the extreme anguish and concern for the good of God’s creatures. It reinforces the already close and strong ties that exist between the Messenger of God and his devoted disciples, and transmits the spiritual vitality inherent in the holy person of the Messenger to all the green and vibrant branches. The upward journey symbolizes the superior love, which is rooted in strong faith. God so wills that love at first sprouts in the heart of the worshipper and then attracts the love of the Almighty Himself. When the two loves meet—each functioning as the male and female counterpart—they give birth to a strong communion and intense affinity between the Creator and the created. The blazing flames of Divine love set afire the tinder dry firewood of human love, giving birth to a third phenomenon known as Ruhul Qudus.


Let it be clear that his is the most exalted and superior station, the sole occupant of which is the Holy Prophet(sa)—the Perfect Man— alone. No one else can even remotely approach its unsurpassing quality—let alone attain it.

In order to get an idea of the great spiritual station of the Holy Prophetsa, it must be pointed out that the stations of love and of close relationship to God in the context of spiritual levels are of three kinds. The lowest level which in its own right is exalted enough, is where the flames of Divine love do warm the human heart even to the extent that the resultant warmth sometimes begins to function quite like fire; yet it falls short of being radiant like it.

As the flames of Divine love fall on love at this level, the warmth generated by these flames may be described as Peace and Tranquility and sometimes even as Angels. The second level of love has already been described above. At this level, the two loves meet; the flame of Divine love heats up the human heart to the extent that it begins to glow like fire but its flames are not angry or aggressive but only lambent and are described as Ruhul Qudus.

At the third level of love, the blazing flames of Divine love fall on the inflammable wick of human love and set it afire, enveloping it in all its parts and ramifications, and transforming it into its complete and perfect manifestation. In this condition, the fire of Divine love not only lends the human heart a kind of glow, but all of a sudden, the entire being (of the recipient) also catches fire; its flames illuminate the environs quite like the bright day. Not a vestige of darkness remains. One’s entire being turns into light, complete with its fiery qualities.

This condition which is so ablaze, comes into being with the union of the two loves and is known as Ruhul Amin, for it provides immunity against every kind of darkness and is free from any estrangement. Its other name is Shadidul Quwa because the revelational experience it denotes is of the mightiest degree. A mightier revelation is unthinkable.

It is also called Dhul Ufuqil A‘la—the master of the loftiest horizon— because it is a manifestation of Divine revelation of the highest order. It is also known as R’a ma R’a (He saw what He saw), for the comprehension of this condition is beyond human ken, imagination, or fancy.

This super-condition was vouchsafed to the one and only person in the entire world—namely the Perfect Man. He alone is the culmination and apex of human excellence. It is in his person that the evolutionary cycle of human potentiality reached absolute perfection. Indeed he is the last point on the higher scale of the extended line of God’s creation and constitutes the absolute pinnacle of all spiritual heights.

Divine wisdom initiated the evolutionary process at the lowest level of creation with the meanest of creatures and caused it to attain the highest point, the other name of which is Muhammad—peace and blessings of God be upon him. The name Muhammadsa signifies the most praised one or the one who is the supreme embodiment of all perfection and excellence.

Just as the Holy Prophet’ssa innate spiritual station was extremely exalted and so high and lofty, the quality of revelation vouchsafed to him was also very high. It is too exalted a station for me or the Messiah to attain. It is known as the Meeting Point or the point of Absolute Union.


I hope you took time to read it carefully as it explains very much so that door to revelation has not closed and that once a man nears a state of spiritual perfection, God then lets revelation to be granted to him, and also that there are different levels of status in relation to love and nearness to god in spirituality, which he has very beautifully explained.

Even the Quran explain regarding this state and Inshallah I will provide you with those verses, I have to find them but I have read them.

So I hope you can see that Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has not brought a new religion but is very much so a Muslim and is under the banner of Islam and was truely a defender of his master the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw).

[pinnochio]

Thankyou for your reply Raven

[melting dogma]

If you religious guys had the guts to take heroic dose of psilocybin and go to the woods to meditate you'd soon realize how utterly ridiculous it is to give your power away to some dogma. It's almost an insult to common sense when you get it. Follow your path, not someone elses. Peace.

[raven200]

Original posted by islamvslizard

can you provide me 5 - 10 of these revelations/ miracles, and if they were independently witnessed by people who were not his followers? we will discuss them.

below explains a number of his prophecies and revelation, you can go through them and even have a read of the books that they are from:



The World War of 1914 and downfall of the Russian Czar

Followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claim that he predicted the onset of the first world war and the downfall of the Russian Czar in the following prophecy:

“ A sign is going to be manifest some days after this date. The villages and cities and fields shall be in a state of revolution on account of it. All of a sudden all shall severely quake by a quaking, mortal and trees and mountains and seas. In the twinkling of an eye this earth shall turn upside down. Streams of blood shall flow as the water of rivers. Those who don robes white like Jessamine at the night the morning will make them (blood stained) like chanar trees. The travelers shall feel the severity of the hour; those who are on the way shall lose the way losing their senses as it were. The great and the small shall all be in a state of prostration on account of fear. Even the Czar shall at that hour be in a state of utmost distress. That Divine sign shall be a sample of wrath; the heaven shall assault drawing forth its sword (Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, part 5th, p.120,)”

“ The date this day is 15th April 1905. and In the Divine revelation the word Zalzalah (meaning a quaking or earthquake), is repeated again and again. … But I cannot yet with certainty take the word in its literal significance. It might be that it is not an ordinary earthquake but some terrible disaster which should bring about a scene of the judgment Day, and a sever destruction should come upon lives and buildings

Also:

The Plague

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is said to have made numerous prophecies concerning the plague in the Punjab and issued multiple warnings against it. This plague was an occurrence of special significance within Ahmadiyya as it is believed to have been mentioned by earlier religious scriptures as one of the signs of the promised Messiah.

In his book Siraj-e-Munir Ghulam Ahmad recalls a revelation which he claimed to have received:

“ O Messiah of mankind. Rid us of our pestilences. ”

Commenting upon this he wrote:

“ Wait and see how and when these warnings fulfil themselves. There are times when prayer brings death. Another time comes when prayer will bring life. ”

He further issued an announcement:

“ I know that those devoid of spiritual feelings will tend to ridicule my statement. Nevertheless, out of sympathy for them, it is my duty to warn people. The warning is this. Today, February 6, 1898, Monday, I saw in a dream that angels of God were planting black trees in different parts of the Punjab. Those trees were black, ugly, terrifying and of small size. I asked some of those who were planting them: What kind of trees are these? They answered: These are trees of the plague which is about to spread in the country. I am not quite sure whether it was said that the plague would spread during the next winter or the winter after, but it was a terrible sight which I saw. I am reminded also of a revelation of mine about the plague. It said, 'Verily Allah does not change the lot of a people unless they first change their hearts.' It seems that the plague will not disappear unless extreme sin and transgression disappear first. ”

By this time the plague had already started in Bombay but disappeared after a year. Two villages in the Punjab were also affected. Subsequently the plague spread throughout the whole of the Punjab, increasing in severity each year. Various kinds of treatments were tried by the British officials but to no avail. Eventually, Ghulam Ahmad claimed that he had been told in a dream that the Plague has gone but the fever remains after which it began to decline steadily, having raged for nine years.

A very heart breaking prophecy for the jamaat:

The Afghan martyrs

Hadhrat Massiah Maud claimed to have foretold the execution of two of his devout followers based on a revelation he claimed to have received:

“ Two goats will be slaughtered and all those upon it are mortal. ”

He claims to have interpreted this to mean that two of his followers would be killed and that as a result general destruction would overtake the country in which they were killed.

Sayyed Abdul Latif, one of the first martyrs of the Ahmadiyya faithAhmad's followers claim that this fulfilled twenty years later in two separate incidents when Ahmad's books found their way to Afghanistan.After reading Ahmad's books, Sayyed Abdul Lateef decided to send one of his disciples (Maulvi Abdur Rahman) to Qadian in order to meet Ahmad.He gave Rahman permission to offer Latif's allegiance if Rahman felt convinced.Rahman was convinced, took an oath of allegiance, and returned to Afghanistan with more of Ahmad's books.He brought the books to Emir Habibullah Khan to proselytize. Rahman was executed by strangling.

A few years later, Lateef left Afghanistan Qadian in order to meet Ahmad before starting on the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca). After having stayed at Qadian with him for a few months, he returned to Afghanistan to proselytize to his King. Upon reaching Khost, he wrote to some courtiers who decided to have him arrested and brought to Kabul. The Emir asked him to renounce his beliefs and recant, but Lateef refused.He was then stoned to death before a large crowd. Ahmad's followers claim that Kabul experienced a cholera epidemic within a month of the stoning.

The English traveler, Frank A. Martin, who was for many years Engineer-in-Chief to the government of Afghanistan, recalls this event in his book thus:

Before being led away from the Amir’s presence to be killed, the moullah (Abdul Lateef) prophesied that a great calamity would overtake the country, and that both the Amir and the Sirdar would suffer. About nine o’clock at night the day the moullah was killed, a great storm of wind suddenly rose and raged with violence for half an hour, and then stopped as suddenly as it came. Such a wind at night was altogether unusual, so the people said that this was the passing of the soul of the Moullah. Then cholera came, and, according to former outbreaks, another visitation was not due for four years to come, and this was also regarded as part of the fulfillment of the moullah’s prophecy, and hence the great fear of the Amir and the prince, who thought they saw in all this their own death and it accounts also for the prince losing control of himself when his favourite wife died.

– Frank A. Martin, Under the Absolute Amir, ISBN 978-1-43049488-1, pg.204
Another Prophecy against an enemy of Islam who was continously disrespecting the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw)

Pandit Lekh Ram's assassination

Pandit Lekh Ram, a leader of the Arya Samaj, was a contemporary of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Because of his derogatory characterizations of The Islamic Prophet Muhammad and his anti-Islamic attitude[8] he was in constant conflict with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Upon his growing anti-Islamic behaviour and his demand for a sign, Ghulam Ahmad is said to have prayed and thus made aware of the imminent death of Lekh Ram who expressed his fearlessness upon such prophecies and insisted on a time limit.Ghulam Ahmad withheld the publication of any prophecy for a while in which he is said to have waited for further knowledge. Eventually he announced that Lekh Ram will meet a bitter end within six years from February 20, 1893.

In an announcement dated February 22, 1893 he stated:

“ Like the calf of Samiri, lekh Ram shall be cut into pieces.”

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to have received multiple revelations regarding Lekh Ram's death and his likeness unto the golden calf of Samri was a recurring theme in these prophecies. About one of his visions he wrote:

“ On April 2, 1893, I beheld in a vision that a stout and sturdy man, frightful to look at, with blood trickling from his face, stood in front of me. He seemed not a creature of this earth but one of the infernal beings whose appearance struck terror into the hearts. Where is Lekh Ram? He growled in a roaring voice and named one more man. I knew that he had been deputed for the chastisement of Lekh Ram and the other person.”

He also foretold that his death will take place on a day close to the festival of Eid:

“ And God gave me the tidings that I will witness a day of Eid, and this day will be close to the Eid. ”

This prophecy was fulfilled on Saturday March 6, 1897 which happened to be a day after the festival of Eid, when Pandit Lekh Ram was brutally stabbed with a dagger by a stranger who it is said turned the knife round and round in his stomach thus cutting his entrails thoroughly. Lekh Ram died the next day. It is said that although his family was at home, and there were some men downstairs, near the gate at the time of the murder, no one saw any person entering or leaving the house.His body was subsequently cremated in accordance with Hindu custom and the remains dispersed of in a river. There was a police investigation but it failed to apprehend the murderer. A few years after his death the Plague struck the Punjab.

Now coming back to the verse:

[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.


Response by islamvslizards

brother this is twisting things what you are basically saying is - how can jesus return at the end times, and why didnt his return at end times stop his companions when he was amongst them from not making him into a god this is not logical a question. the actions of his immediate followers who diefy him is obviously what he is talking about, not the people at the end of time.

Ok with this argument lets look at it from another angle, as you seem not to really understand what I am pointing out.

Now according to majority of Muslims today the second coming fo Jesus will be that he will come back down from a state fo sleep from the sky possibly heaven and possibly not heaven as you are not sure.

Also in relation to majority of muslims today he will be carried down by two angels.

O.K. so lets say this does happen, and in relation to you it has not happened as yet but in this argument say it does happen.

Now in relation to the vast amount of media every where and everybody having cameras and security camers being every where, do you not think that this descent of Hadhrat Isa will be recorded by someone and if so do you not think that such an awe aspiring miracle will cause every human being to become a believer of Jesus, and in Islam if he states that I am now a muslim.

Now such an event leading to mass conversion all round the world, why has God not covered this point in the Quran with Jesus, I mean his second coming is to be a monumentous event. Not only Muslims but christians world wide are still waiting for this to happen.

Though in relation to the verse quoted above, Jesus says to God:

"but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things"

This verse is to be said on the day of judgement, would you not agree? So on the day of judgement Jesus is saying to God you caused me to die.

If he was talking about the time when his disciples made him into god, would he not say that when you raised me alive in a state of sleep?

No Jesus says you caused me to die therefore if he is talking of the time of when his disciples or so called disciples mis represented him 2000 years ago and made him into God then he should not be saying that you caused me to die. should he?

Brother I am not twisting things I am stating what the Quran says clearly, I would say that it is infact you that is finding it difficult to believe as made up hadith that contrdict the quran have been fed into muslims today and are very much forced upon them and if any one disagrees then they are classed as kafir.

These are the areas that Hadhrat massiah maud came to reform. It was only him who clearly says that Jesus has died, whilst all muslims still await him. It is him who declared that Jesus is not to return in the form of the Jesus that was alive 2000 years ago.

Would you not agree that if muslims had lost there way and like the Jews brought in there own additional scriptures to await someone who was never to return, was the time of the mahdi and massih coming not to put right this misconception.

[islamvslizards]

Brother I was going to give full reply to all your questions tomorrow but reading your response again I felt that this understanding you have given about Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, needs to be corrected.

apologies. it seems apparant that the problem lies with my understanding of some of the terminology used here, but i think im starting to get what you are saying now.


Firstly Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not on any account bring a new religion, I very much so expressed that Like Jesus had come to reform the Jews, yes to become better Jews and follow the true faith of Allah. Similarly Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has come as a reformer to reform the muslims so that they go back to the true teachings of Allah.

ok brother, lets break this down.

if mirza ghulam did not bring any new religion

- how did he prove that the prophet prayed the way miraz ghulam was saying?
- how did he explain the debacle of saqifa/the tragedy of thursday/the burning of the house etc?
- how did he prove that the sharia he was reforming, was the same as the prophet himself?

how do ahmadis pray btw? is it according to any shia/sunni school of jurisprudence or something totally new?




If you read Hadharat Mirza Ghulam Ahmads book you can clearly see that as his name he is truely a Ghulam to the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw) may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

lol ghulam ahmad...ghulaam e muhammed.....the slave of muhammed


He defended Islam and Ahmadies to this day defend Islam and preach peace but all other sects unite against us and have declared us non muslim. Why? Because Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed that he was a prophet.

brother that is quite a serious claim to make. the quran itself is clear that the message ended with the prophet, look at the words of the ayats revealed after his most famous, final, speech at ghadir khum after his farewell hajj before death:

[5.3].... This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

now, there are 2 main types of leader -

(1) prophets - defined as people who recieve revelation
(2) imams - those who do not recieve revelation, but who maintain the revelation of teh previous prophet

mirza ghulam was stating that he was a prophet - a reciever of divine inspiration (wahi) - which goes against the quran.

this is not a claim that can be accepted by other muslims.


Source: Elucidation of objectives. pages; 15-24

However, if the objection is raised that since the first Messiah was a Prophet of God, the second Messiah too ought to be a Prophet, the answer is that the Holy Prophetsa did not make Prophethood as the condition precedent for the Second Messiah:

what on earth? prophets didnt "make" anything, it was allah himself. where is mirza ghulam getting his information from? because i can guarantee you it wont be found in any reliable hadith or quranic ayat. which in fact state the opposite of what he does!


It is clearly recorded that he would be a Muslim by faith and practise the Quranic law like other Muslims. He will not claim to be anyone other than a Muslim and the Imam of Muslims.

so, the fact that mirza ghulam openly claims to be a prophet, and here he says the mahdi will NOT claim to be a prophet, does this mean that mirza ghulam was therefore not the mahdi by his own admission?


There is no doubt that Allah has appointed me, a humble person, as Muhaddath. A Muhaddath, in a way, is also a Prophet.

ABSOLUTELY false. and not grounded in islam. in a way? is that meant to mean?

Hadith studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a prophet recieves wahi, a muhaddith has a good memory. are the two things the same? by this argument was bukhari a prophet? muslim? hanbal? even today, how about scholars like al-khoei? sistani? rouhani? bahjat? they all are confirmed muhaddith, why have none of them ever claimed to be prophets?


for he has the honour of talking to God and the secrets of the unseen are revealed to him; like the messengers of God and His Prophets, the revelations he receives are free from satanic interference; he is taught the deeper meaning and essence of the Law; he is ordained exactly like Prophets and, like them, he is under obligation to openly pronounce and declare his ministry; and anyone who rejects him incurs a kind of Divine chastisement. Prophethood too requires these same characteristics to be
present in the person who claims to be a Prophet.

brother...im sorry to say but this is an out and out lie. there is no "revelation" involved in the study of ilm ar rijal, NONE. on top of that, what evidence is there that mirza ghulam was a muhadiith? where did he learn, and what hadith books did he learn FROM, and who was his teacher?

in fact, who WAS is teacher?


To the objection that the door to Prophethood is closed forever, and that the revelation which the Prophets receive has now ceased, my answer is that neither has the door to all kinds of Prophethood been completely closed, nor has every kind of revelation been stopped. The fact is that the door to Prophethood remains open to the Ummah. But let it be understood, once and for all, that the institution of Prophethood, which is forever interminable, is neither absolute nor complete but is only partial, as I have just mentioned. Another name for it is Muhaddathiyat. It is granted only through total submission to the Perfect Man who is the repository of all excellences pertaining to perfect Prophethood.

this is ridiclulous! hadiths were not formally compiled into books until about 300 years after the prophet DIED, and were in fact banned during his life and immediately after! does this mean that the prophet was not a prophet because he was not a muhaddith? or that mirza ghulam was better than the prophet since he knew something rasool e paak didnt?


If you ask what exactly is the quality and spiritual power in which the two of us—the Messiah son of Mary and my own humble self—resemble, the answer is that it is an overall quality with which the spiritual sensibilities of the two of us have been endowed. At one end, the chain stretches deep down below, and at the other, reaches high above.

The descent signifies the extreme anguish and concern for the good of God’s creatures. It reinforces the already close and strong ties that exist between the Messenger of God and his devoted disciples, and transmits the spiritual vitality inherent in the holy person of the Messenger to all the green and vibrant branches. The upward journey symbolizes the superior love, which is rooted in strong faith. God so wills that love at first sprouts in the heart of the worshipper and then attracts the love of the Almighty Himself. When the two loves meet—each functioning as the male and female counterpart—they give birth to a strong communion and intense affinity between the Creator and the created. The blazing flames of Divine love set afire the tinder dry firewood of human love, giving birth to a third phenomenon known as Ruhul Qudus.


what spiritual sensibilities would they be? kindness? mercy? ability to bring the dead back to life? how many other people on the face of the earth share these "sensebilities" (apart from the miracles, they are reserved for prophets)

brother what miracles did mirza ghulam do, in order to prove he was indeed sent by allah? abraham was saved from the fire, moses had his staff. jesus resurrected lazarus and countless others, the prophet muhammeds life was nothing BUT strings of miracles...so what dod mirza ghulam do?

also, he misunderstands the meaning of ruhul qudus....hadith qudsi were revealed soley to prophet muhammed (pbuh), but were not part of the holy quran. im afraid they have nothing whatsoever to do with isa son of mary.

if mirza ghulam claims to recieve ruhul qudus, then please can you provide a few narrations of his which he claims is based on ruhul qudus?



At this level, the two loves meet; the flame of Divine love heats up the human heart to the extent that it begins to glow like fire but its flames are not angry or aggressive but only lambent and are described as Ruhul Qudus.

why am i beginning to think that mirza ghulam has no idea what ruhul qudus is at all? how can you accept his words without any independent knowledge yourself?


Even the Quran explain regarding this state and Inshallah I will provide you with those verses, I have to find them but I have read them.

please provide them.

[raven200]

Firstly please read the post above yours as it seems we both posted around the same time so my answer to your previous post just got posted before yours.

Also unfortunately it seems like you do not understand the meaning of Ruhul Qudus:

Meaning of ruhul qudus:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit

Main article: Holy Spirit (Islam)

Holy Spirit in Islam is an agent of divine action or communication commonly identified with the angel Gabriel (ar: Jibreel) or Ruhul Qudus but also alternatively with the created spirit from God by which he enlivened Adam, made Mary pregnant with Jesus, and inspired the angels and the prophets. The belief in Trinity is explicitly forbidden by the Qur'an and called a grave sin. The same applies to any idea of the duality of God (Allah).

It is important that before you start describing the meaning of a word that please at least look up the islamic understanding of it.

Most scholars will agree with the quote I have provided.

And Ruhul Qudus is explained in the Quran:

http://www.introducingislam.org/info/infallibility/chapter2.php

(b) In Surah Qadr:

"Surely We revealed it on the grand night. And what will make you comprehend what the grand night is? The grand night is better than a thousand months. The angels and Ruhul Qudus descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair, Peace! it is till the break of the morning." (Surah Qadr 97:1-5)

Also in relation to your following statement:

Firstly what I had written:

Originally Posted by raven200
It is clearly recorded that he would be a Muslim by faith and practise the Quranic law like other Muslims. He will not claim to be anyone other than a Muslim and the Imam of Muslims.


Response from islamvslizard

so, the fact that mirza ghulam openly claims to be a prophet, and here he says the mahdi will NOT claim to be a prophet, does this mean that mirza ghulam was therefore not the mahdi by his own admission?

Seems to me your getting confused with what is written or maybe not wanting to put it in the context that it is written.

It is not written that the Mahdi will NOT claim to be a prophet, but infact my post stated:

He will not claim to be anyone other than a Muslim and the Imam of Muslims.

Now in this where did prophethood come into it, the statment clearly says that the mahdi will not claim to be anyone other then a muslim and imam of muslims. This is explaining in a hadith which states the claim of the Imam mahdi. Prophethood is not discussed in this hadith. That does not mean that an imam who has been bestowed with divine revelation from Allah does not attain a certain level of prophethood, which is the only means by which true communication can be recieved via Ruhul Qudus from Allah.

[islamvslizards]

bro ruhul qudus = hadith qudsi = wahi = through jibrail. we are talking about the same thing. however mirza ghulam isnt.

[raven200]

bro ruhul qudus = hadith qudsi = wahi = through jibrail. we are talking about the same thing. however mirza ghulam isnt.

I'm afraid it seems like you are persistent in twisting the discussion when I have clearly explained to you that Ruhul Qudus is the (Holy spirit) yes Hadhrat Jibrael.

Also this is exactly the context in which Hadhrat massiah maud is talking about, as it is through Hadhrat Jibrael if you are not aware that the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet.

It is the same Holy spirit that spoke to Hadhrat mariam the mother of Hadhrat Isa to inform her of the miracalous birth she is about to bear.

All prophets were guided via ruhul qudus and this is a simple fact that seems like you don't yet understand.

Or you are under the guidance of someone who is feeding you incorrect information that you are arguing the point and making it into something it is not.

May Allah open your eyes.

Also I had already informed you that we pray exactly as the Holy Prophet taught muslims to pray the five daily prayers. We read the same kalima.

We follow the five pillers of Islam.

Most importantly unlike others we have on top of that accepted the second coming of Hadhrat Isa whilst you still wait for him to come down from the sky with two angels and land on a minaret.

I tell you not in your lifetime and any after you will this happen, The day of judgement will arrive and many muslims will blindly still be waiting for this to happen.

[islamvslizards]

brother we are getting distracted. lets take it back a step.

how did mirza ghulam prove that his reformations of islam were the "right" ones. for instance how did he know "his" prayers were the "right" ones?

[raven200]

Also in relation to the word Muhaddath:

seems like you've got it confused with another word, which is muhaddith.

But hadhrat massiah maud clearly writes Muhaddath which means:

http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/prophethoodislam/prophethoodislam.shtml

The above link is not from an Ahmadiyy website so have a look at the definition in it given for Muhaddath:

• Muhaddath is a prophet in the metaphorical sense

Now it does say metaphorical in the description this is because if muslims today gave the meaning of this word as not being in a metaphorical sense then they would have to believe that a certain levels of the doors of revelation are still open.

As how does one call someone a prophet in the metphorical sense, either is or is not.

[islamvslizards]

Also in relation to the word Muhaddath:

seems like you've got it confused with another word, which is muhaddith.

But hadhrat massiah maud clearly write Muhhadath which means:

http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/prophethoodislam/prophethoodislam.shtml


i think i did misread the word, i guess its too early on a monday and my fast is messing with my brain :o i guess we are all human! ill read through it again and re-post later in the day

[raven200]

brother we are getting distracted. lets take it back a step.

how did mirza ghulam prove that his reformations of islam were the "right" ones. for instance how did he know "his" prayers were the "right" ones?

His prayers were exactly the same that the holy prophet read, in relation to knowing the truth about hadhrat Isa and him being the Massih and Mahdi, this was through revelation from God.

As I have posted previously and quoted from him, he explains clearly that when a man reaches a certain level of purity he then attains revelation from Allah.

Though the important factor in his case was that he was destined to come as a reformer as it was prophecised previously by Jesus and by the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw).

His truth is that his message as he prophecised through revelation from god that his message will spread to the corners of the world and this is exactly that is happening today. Ahmadies world wide are spreading his message and pushing forward to the truth to reform and via MTA our channel his message is spread through the sky all round the world 24 hours a day.

In my next few posts I shall provide you with youtube links to show how millions world wide have accepted his message and how through Khilafat the unity of Islam is guided spiritualy.

[islamvslizards]

His prayers were exactly the same that the holy prophet read, in relation to knowing the truth about hadhrat Isa and him being the Massih and Mahdi, this was through revelation from God.

As I have posted previously and quoted from him, he explains clearly that when a man reaches a certain level of purity he then attains revelation from Allah.

Though the important factor in his case was that he was destined to come as a reformer as it was prophecised previously by Jesus and by the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw).


ok, see, this is my problem.

what he is effectively saying is, all the hadiths which people use to prove how to pray, plus all the scholars down the ages who dedicated their lives in study are wrong? and because he has had "revelations" he is right in the face of all those people?

can you show me how ahmadis pray?

[raven200]

ok, see, this is my problem.

what he is effectively saying is, all the hadiths which people use to prove how to pray, plus all the scholars down the ages who dedicated their lives in study are wrong? and because he has had "revelations" he is right in the face of all those people?

can you show me how ahmadis pray?

No he is not saying all hadith and all scholars are wrong, there are many hadith and many scholars who agree with what he was saying in relation to there understanding of Islam.

His revelations were guided by God and instructed by God, below is also a list of some of the scholars that would agree with the viewpoint that prophethood to as described by hadhrat massiah maud can continue after Holy prophet but it must be through the Ummah under Islam. No new religion is to be established and Islam will continue until judgement day.

Mulla Ali Qari, Muhy-ud-Din Ibn-i Arabi, Imam Abdul Wahab Sharani, Mujaddid Alf Thani, Mirza Mazhar Janjanan and Maulawi Muhammad Qasim Nanotawi.

Also in terms of how we read namaz, well exactly like you read namaz.

Fajar, Zohar, Asr, Maghrib, Isha.

Do ghuzu beforehand, and like always adhan, to call all to prayer, then takbeer.

This is the same before all five daily prayers, and yes we do face the Kabbah.

Also Rakats, farz, sunnats are read exactly to the same number that you would read.

Salah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How the above link explains, that is exactly how we read namaz, in the table showing the number of rakats we follow the same number as sunni's not shia.

Brother I assure you there is no difference.

[islamvslizards]

How the above link explains, that is exactly how we read namaz, in the table showing the number of rakats we follow the same number as sunni's not shia.

Brother I assure you there is no difference.

bro which sunni madhabs prayers do ahmadis follow? because all 4 read differently

[raven200]

bro which sunni madhabs prayers do ahmadis follow? because all 4 read differently

My friend Madhab is all the same madhab is religion and all are under Islam.

The 5 daily prayers they are same for all, I presume possibly shias may pray them differently as they seem to on many accounts have changed many parts of Islam very greatly, even so that some of them well most revere Hadhrat Ali higher then Holy prophet Mohammad (saw) - Nausbillah.

But over all methadology for all Sunni's is the same of how namaz is read, I've posted the link in the previous post, which describes this.

Salat is to be read how the holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) peace be on him has taught in his sunnat. Therefore most muslims read the same namaz.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to find out, if there is something you think we do that is different in reading namaz then ask.

But you will get the answer that we do not.

[islamvslizards]

below explains a number of his prophecies and revelation, you can go through them and even have a read of the books that they are from:

i have not replied to the other posts yet but think this one needs answering first.

firstly - if he was indeed a prophet, WHATEVER he predicted, would ABSOLUTELY come to pass. if he was wrong about even a single prophecy, surely this shows that he is a false prophet?

would hazrat jibrail make a mistake?


the prophecies that DIDNT come true (http://www.irshad.org/exposed/false.php)

what are your views on this?

also, what are your views of these ayats, in light of the prophecies that were not fulfilled:

[11.18] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah? These shall be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses shall say: These are they who lied against their Lord. Now surely the curse of Allah is on the unjust.
[11.19] Who turn away from the path of Allah and desire to make it crooked; and they are disbelievers in the hereafter.

[islamvslizards]

My friend Madhab is all the same madhab is religion and all are under Islam.

The 5 daily prayers they are same for all, I presume possibly shias may pray them differently as they seem to on many accounts have changes many parts of Islam very greatly, even so that some of them well most revere Hadhrat Ali higher then Holy prophet Mohammad (saw) - Nausbillah.


brother come on man do you think i speak out of ignorance???

let me just take one example - and i assure you 100% that i have been through every SINGLE nuance and movement in prayers, but this is the most easily identifiable one:

the differences between hanafi, hanbali and shafii

1) The Hanafis say that the males should place their right hand over the left and place them below the navel and the females should put their hands on the chest.

2) The Hanbalis are of the view that both the males and the females should put their right palms on the back of their left hands and place them below the navel.

3) The Shafis say that both the males and the females should place their right palms on the back of their left hands and place them above the navel but below the chest, as it is the Sunnah.

Al-fiqa al-Mazahib al-Arba’a, page 399-400, compiled by Allama Abdul Rehman Al-Jazeeri, published by Ulema Academy, Department of Auqaaf, Punjab

THE MALIKI VIEW

4) The early three Sunni Imams were born far away from Madina, but Imam Malik bin Anas was born there, he grew up he saw the elders, the literary people and the scholars of Madina offering prayers with unfolded hands, and therefore he ordered that the prayers be offered likewise.

Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi writes about him in Sharh Muslim.

“According to Imam Malik the prayers should be offered with unfolded hands, he considers the folding of hands as undesirable in obligatory prayers and permissible in Nafl prayers.”

Sharh e Muslim, volume 1, page 590, by Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi, Published in Lahore

THE AHLUL HADITH (SALAFI/WAHABBI) VIEW

5).The Ahl’ul Hadeeth have graded the traditions in the “Sihah Sittah” on the folding of hands as weak, and place their folded hands on their chests, this act is performed both by their men and women.

Salat ar-Rasool, page 190, compiled by Maulana Muhammad Sadiq Sialkoti, Published in Lahore.

in fact, lets look at this in more detail shall we?

Imam Shokani records the following statemen of Ibn Manzar who was one of the teachers of Imam Bukhari:

ال ابن المنذر في بعض تصانيفه‏:‏ لم يثبت عن النبي صلى اللَّه عليه وآله وسلم في ذلك شيء فهو مخير‏

“There is no such proven tradition from Holy Prophet (s) in regard to folding of hands, therefore it is up to the worshipper [whether he offers the prayers with either folded or unfolded hands]”.

1. Nayl al Awtar, Volume 2, page 203
2. Aun al-Ma’bood, Sharh Sunan Abi Daud, volume 2, page 322, published by Dar ul-Kutb e Ilmia, Beirut.

Imam Ahmed reocrds:

حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا أبو معاوية ثنا الأعمش عن مسيب بن رافع عن تميم بن طرفة عن جابر بن سمرة قال : خرج علينا رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ذات يوم فقال ما لي أراكم رافعي أيديكم كأنها أذناب خيل شمس أسكنوا في الصلاة

Jabi bin Samara said: ‘Once Allah's messenger (s came to us andid: ‘Why you fold your hands as the tails of horses, you have to settle in prayer’’.

Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume 5 page 93 Hadith 20905 (http://islamport.com/d/1/mtn/1/89/3501.html)

Shaykh Shoib Al-Aranut stated about this Hadith:

‘The chain is Sahih according to Muslim's standard’

i have many....many more hadiths about salah, but lets concentrate on this first.

so, according to which sunni madhab, do ahmadis put their hands when in prayer?

[raven200]

i have not replied to the other posts yet but think this one needs answering first.

firstly - if he was indeed a prophet, WHATEVER he predicted, would ABSOLUTELY come to pass. if he was wrong about even a single prophecy, surely this shows that he is a false prophet?

would hazrat jibrail make a mistake?


the prophecies that DIDNT come true (http://www.irshad.org/exposed/false.php)

what are your views on this?

also, what are your views of these ayats, in light of the prophecies that were not fulfilled:

[11.18] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah? These shall be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses shall say: These are they who lied against their Lord. Now surely the curse of Allah is on the unjust.
[11.19] Who turn away from the path of Allah and desire to make it crooked; and they are disbelievers in the hereafter.

All of his prophecise came true brother, you are traulling through the internet to find information written by maulvi and clerics who are against the jamaat, and who mis quote or chnage the truth and put in another context.

Brother read the follwowing, it is written by Hadhrat massiah maud himself and he has explained exactly what the challenge was. Abdullah Atham backed out against the challenge, please read below:



Source Essence of Islam volume 5

‘ABDULLAH ATHAM

Among the great signs of Allah, the Almighty, is the sign He manifested with regard to Deputy ‘Abdullah Atham, a Christian. It was occasioned by a debate between Islam and Christianity which took place at the urging of Dr. Martyn Clark in May and June 1893. The Christians selected Deputy ‘Abdullah Atham for this debate, and I represented the Muslims. A few days before the debate began, ‘Abdullah Atham had used the term Dajjal [Antichrist] with reference to our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), in his book Andruna-e-Bible, as I have mentioned on the last page of Jang-e-Muqaddas. His mischief and insolence during the entire debate is still fresh in my memory, and I earnestly wished that God should grant me some prophecy regarding his chastisement. It was with this in mind that I took a signed
statement from Atham, so that when I announced the prophecy he should not rush to the court like other Christians and try to harm me.

I was occupied in the debate for fifteen days and continued to pray privately for [a sign of] reprimand for Atham. When the debate was over, I was informed by God Almighty that if Atham would not repent of his audacity and insolence, and would not retract the word Dajjal, which he wrote in his book with reference to the Holy Prophet sa, he would be cast in hawia [hell] within a period of fifteen months. Having received this revelation, I addressed ‘Abdullah Atham on the day that the debate was concluded. This was before a large gathering, which included Dr. Martyn Clark and about thirty
other Christians, as well as about thirty or forty members
of my Jama‘at. Among these were brother Maulavi Hakim Nuruddin, brother Maulavi ‘Abdul Karim, brother Shaikh Rahmatullah, brother Munshi Tajuddin (Accountant Railway Office, Lahore), brother ‘Abdul ‘Aziz Khan (clerk in the Office of the Examiner, Railway, Lahore), brother Khalifa Nuruddin, and others.

I said to Deputy ‘Abdullah Atham: ‘Although this debate has ended in the intellectual and rational sense, there is still another ongoing contest that remains to be decided, and it has been ordained by God. It is as follows: In your book, Andruna-e-Bible, you have called our Holy Prophetsa
Dajjal, whereas I believe him to be a true Messenger, and I firmly believe Islam to be from God. Now this is something that will be decided by heaven. The heavenly decree is that whichever of us is false in his statement and unjustly declares the true Messenger to be a liar and Dajjal, and whichever of us is an enemy of the truth, shall be cast in hawia [hell] within fifteen months from today, in the lifetime of the truthful one, unless he turns to the truth, i.e., desists from calling the Righteous and True Prophetsa Dajjal and refrains from impertinence and abuse.

I said this because the mere denial of a religion does not merit punishment in this world, it is audacious, impertinent and insolent vilification that makes one deserve punishment. Thus when Atham was apprised of this Prophecy in this gathering of more than seventy people, he blanched visibly, his face turned pale, and his hands started to tremble. He immediately took his tongue out of his mouth, touched his ears with both hands, and began to shake his head and hands just like frightened culprit who vehemently denies any wrongdoing, repents and shows great humility.

With a quivering tongue, he kept saying, I repent! I repent! I am not guilty of any disrespect or blasphemy; and I have never ever called the Holy
Prophetsa Dajjal. All the while he was trembling, and this spectacle was not only beheld by Muslims but his humble attitude was also witnessed by a large number of Christians. His denial seemed to signify that his statement in his book Andruna-e-Bible was not meant as an insult. In any case, he ended up retracting the word Dajjal before this gathering of about seventy people, and it was this one word that had occasionedthe prophecy.

He escaped death within a period of fifteen months, because he had recanted that blasphemousword on which the prophecy depended and God would surely never forget the condition that He Himself had attached. Although this should have been enough for Atham to avail himself of the condition of repentance, he not only retracted the word Dajjal but, from the very day that he heard the prophecy, he stopped attacking Islam altogether. The fear this Prophecy instilled in his heart continued to increase until he became a nervous wreck. All his peace and tranquillity was gone. He changed himself so much that he completely ceased to have debates with Muslims
and stopped writing books against Islam, as had previously been his habit. He stopped uttering sacrilegious and insulting remarks, as though his mouth
had been sealed. He became very quiet and depressed.

Such was his depression that he despaired of his verylife and, in a state of frenzy, began travelling from town to town to pay a last visit to his relatives. It was in the course of these travels that he finally met his death in Ferozepur. The question is, why was he caught up by Divine punishment and why did he die shortly thereafter while he had repented publicly of his sacrilegious remark, and had more than once expressed aversion to
using the word Dajjal? The answer is that since he had become the target of mubahala [prayer-duel], therefore, in keeping with the prophecies that were
made fifteen months later, while Atham was still alive, and are recorded on the first page of the book Anjam-e-Atham, it was inevitable that he should die. It was clearly stated in these prophecies that Atham would die soon after his refusal to swear an oath and after concealing the testimony and after reverting to his impertinence. Since he was guilty of these offences, he died seven months after my last announcement was published. His death was also ineluctable because it was implicit in the prophecy that the liar would die
before the truthful one.

If any Christian still doubts Atham’s deception, then let him have his doubt removed through the Heavenly Testimony. Atham died in accordance with the
prophecy, now let any person proclaim himself as his surrogate and swear that Atham was not overawed by the prophecy, and that he was in fact attacked four times, and if he who takes this oath survives for one year, I will declare publicly that my prophecy proved to be false. But this oath will have to be without any preconditions. In this manner the matter will be clearly resolved and the person who is false in the sight of God will be exposed.



Therefore he managed to get more time due to his repentance but he had dared challenge God will and thus it was evident that he was to be perished sooner or later and that he was man well shaken with fear of what was to become of him.

Also in relation to prophecy relating to his marriage to Muhammadi Begum, that too was not just simple announcement that he will definately Marry her, God had given him guidance and also informed him of what the consequences will be for the family of Muhammadi begum if she was to wed to someone else, which happened just as it was prophecised:

Please read it in detail from the link:

http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/prophecy.html

I can give you full detail of every single Prophecy listed by the uneducated liar who has dared to spread lies and challenge what God has revealed to the Massih and Mahdi as untrue.

Though again I will advise you to have a look on our jamaat website www.alislam.org regarding all these prophecise as they are explained entirely. Not one of his prophecise failed.

And whomesoever claim they did may Allah open there eyes and give them a chance to ask for mercy or the day is not far when God will clear the Earth from agressor and liars.

[11.18] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah? These shall be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses shall say: These are they who lied against their Lord. Now surely the curse of Allah is on the unjust.
[11.19] Who turn away from the path of Allah and desire to make it crooked; and they are disbelievers in the hereafter.

I tell you these people who say his prophecise failed are the ones who are forging a lie against Allah. Ahmadiiyat grows stronger day by day, whilst these evil clerics and maulvi's are getting ratted out from there hell holes and being destroyed. Allah has surely put them under his wrath and they will nothing but perish.

[raven200]

brother come on man do you think i speak out of ignorance???

let me just take one example - and i assure you 100% that i have been through every SINGLE nuance and movement in prayers, but this is the most easily identifiable one:

the differences between hanafi, hanbali and shafii

1) The Hanafis say that the males should place their right hand over the left and place them below the navel and the females should put their hands on the chest.

2) The Hanbalis are of the view that both the males and the females should put their right palms on the back of their left hands and place them below the navel.

3) The Shafis say that both the males and the females should place their right palms on the back of their left hands and place them above the navel but below the chest, as it is the Sunnah.

Al-fiqa al-Mazahib al-Arba’a, page 399-400, compiled by Allama Abdul Rehman Al-Jazeeri, published by Ulema Academy, Department of Auqaaf, Punjab

THE MALIKI VIEW

4) The early three Sunni Imams were born far away from Madina, but Imam Malik bin Anas was born there, he grew up he saw the elders, the literary people and the scholars of Madina offering prayers with unfolded hands, and therefore he ordered that the prayers be offered likewise.

Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi writes about him in Sharh Muslim.

“According to Imam Malik the prayers should be offered with unfolded hands, he considers the folding of hands as undesirable in obligatory prayers and permissible in Nafl prayers.”

Sharh e Muslim, volume 1, page 590, by Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi, Published in Lahore

THE AHLUL HADITH (SALAFI/WAHABBI) VIEW

5).The Ahl’ul Hadeeth have graded the traditions in the “Sihah Sittah” on the folding of hands as weak, and place their folded hands on their chests, this act is performed both by their men and women.

Salat ar-Rasool, page 190, compiled by Maulana Muhammad Sadiq Sialkoti, Published in Lahore.

in fact, lets look at this in more detail shall we?

Imam Shokani records the following statemen of Ibn Manzar who was one of the teachers of Imam Bukhari:

ال ابن المنذر في بعض تصانيفه‏:‏ لم يثبت عن النبي صلى اللَّه عليه وآله وسلم في ذلك شيء فهو مخير‏

“There is no such proven tradition from Holy Prophet (s) in regard to folding of hands, therefore it is up to the worshipper [whether he offers the prayers with either folded or unfolded hands]”.

1. Nayl al Awtar, Volume 2, page 203
2. Aun al-Ma’bood, Sharh Sunan Abi Daud, volume 2, page 322, published by Dar ul-Kutb e Ilmia, Beirut.

Imam Ahmed reocrds:

حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا أبو معاوية ثنا الأعمش عن مسيب بن رافع عن تميم بن طرفة عن جابر بن سمرة قال : خرج علينا رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ذات يوم فقال ما لي أراكم رافعي أيديكم كأنها أذناب خيل شمس أسكنوا في الصلاة

Jabi bin Samara said: ‘Once Allah's messenger (s came to us andid: ‘Why you fold your hands as the tails of horses, you have to settle in prayer’’.

Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume 5 page 93 Hadith 20905 (http://islamport.com/d/1/mtn/1/89/3501.html)

Shaykh Shoib Al-Aranut stated about this Hadith:

‘The chain is Sahih according to Muslim's standard’

i have many....many more hadiths about salah, but lets concentrate on this first.

so, according to which sunni madhab, do ahmadis put their hands when in prayer?

Now what you have listed are things that are minute in the sense that having the arms below the naval or above the naval does'nt matter.

It is definately in hadith and tradition that the Holy prophet put the right arm over the left when reading prayer and that is how we read namaz.

Billions of muslims all around the world fold one arm over the other, and a few don't well I would say that tradition and hadith are on agreement of folding one arm over another.

All day you stand with your hands hung by your sides and yet when it come to stand in front of God you would disrespect him by not humbling yourself by folding your arms.

[islamvslizards]

It is definately in hadith and tradition that the Holy prophet put the right arm over the left when reading prayer and that is how we read namaz.


can you therefore provide me with the hadith?

however i think you should be made aware of this:

the leading and famous scholar of Deobandis, Shah Muhammad Ismail wrote in his book Tanveer ul Ai’nain, page 30.

“The traditions of unfolding the hands have been reported from pious followers like Hasan Basri, Ibrahim, Ibn e Musaiyab and Ibn e Seerain, as reported by Ibne Shaiba. If the traditions (of folded hands) had reached these scholars, they did not deem it a Sunnah, but attributed it to a common practice. (They would have adopted it had they regarded it as Holy Prophet’s practice). Therefore they carried on with their way of unfolded hands due to it being authentic and having evidence to that effect. If these traditions had not reached them, we will assume they did not know about the folding of the hands, they told people to open their hands when praying, due to it being authentic, whereas the folding of hands is a custom with no solid evidence.”


and not to mention the sunni imam malik was adamant about hands being open:

Fatah ul Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2 page 224:

وروى بن القاسم عن مالك الإرسال وصار إليه أكثر أصحابه

Ibn Qasim reports Imam Malik offered prayers without folding hands.

The same narration has also been recorded in Tayseer al Bari Sharh Sahih al Bukhari, translated by E’tiqad Publishing house, Delhi, volume 1, chapter 707, page 489

We read in Sharh Muslim by Nawawi Volume 1 page 173:

وعن مالك رحمه الله روايتان أحداهما يضعهما تحت صدره والثانية يرسلهما ولا يضع إحداهما على الأخرى وهذه رواية جمهور أصحابه وهي الأشهر عندهم

“The other narration of Malik is that the hands should remain open in Salat, not closed and this opinion is the most prevelant amongst the Sahaba of Malik”.

Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Ai’ni in Sharh Kunz ul Daqaiq, page 250, published in Nolakshoor, writes:

Imam Malik said that the order is certainly about unfolding the hands but prayers can be offered with the folded hands. The Holy Prophet (s) and his companions used to offer prayers with unfolded hands to the extent that their finger tips got red due to the blood getting blocked there.

In Al Kifayah Volume 1 page 250 and al Ghayah Volume 1 page 250, both of which are commentaries of Hidayah, we read this narration:

“Imam Malik gave a Fatawa that the hands should be pointing in the direction of the ground”

Muhammad bin Abdul Rahman Dimishquee Shafee writes in Rehmath al ummah Volume 1 page 37, Dhikr Salat:

“The narration of Imam Malik is well known that he would pray with open hands”

Sunni scholars Sherani in Meezan al Kubra Volume 1 page 150, Dhikr Salath says:

“The Fatawa of Imam Malik is well known, namely that he would pray with open hands”


The darling of the Wahabbi and Deobandi movement Muhammad Ismaeel Shaheed writes in Tanveer al Aynayn page 41:

“The Syrian companions fo Imam Malik bin Ums narrate that he would offer Salat with his hands open. This Fatawa related to his obligatory Salath, and Imam Qasim narrates that he would read the obligatory and Sunnah prayers with open hands. Shuhaib also records that Malik prayed open hands, and he narrates that Imam Malik’s Sahab acted upon this”

We read in au Jaza al Masalik fee Sharh Muwatta Imam Malik Volume 3 page 166:

“There exist various narrations from Imam Malik on the opening of the hands, and amongst the Malikis the opening of the hands is preferred and better, and Imam Malik deemed the act of folding during obligatory prayers to be Makruh, but Musthahab in Sunnah prayers”

Maulana Ishfaque ur-Rehman in Imam Malik’s Muwatta (Arabic), page 142, printed by Noor Muhammad Asah Al-Mutabe’ Karachi, border/margin of Kashful Ghita writes:

That is, “About placing the right hand on the left hand, Imam Malik said: “In the obligatory prayers, I am not even aware of the folding of hands” so in obligatory prayers Imam Malik wasn’t convinced that the hands should be folded, and he considered it as abominable. But while offering the Nafl prayers in order to ease up things he allowed folding the hands if the position of Qayyam gets lengthy.”

About the folding of hands, in the border of the very same page it is stated:

“Imam Malik has allowed the folding of hands for Nafl prayers but for the Obligatory prayers, it is not allowed.”

Ibn al-Qasim said:

“…Maalik said about placing the right hand over the left during Salat. He said: (“I don’t know (of) that in the obligatory (prayer).” And he used to dislike it. “However, in voluntary prayers (nawaafil), when the standing is extended, there is no harm in that (for one who doesn’t) support himself by it..."
Al-Mudawwanah 1/111

so what do we see? sunni salah is DEFINATELY not the same, even the way they have their hands is open to interpretation!

so my question remains, according to which madhab do ahmadis pray?

if you wish we can discuss major differences between the sunni madhabs, i can assure you there are plenty.

[islamvslizards]

All of his prophecise came true brother, you are traulling through the internet to find information written by maulvi and clerics who are against the jamaat, and who mis quote or chnage the truth and put in another context.


yes indeed i am finding things online. my knowledge of ahmadi beliefs is mostly second hand, as you are the first ahmadi i have properly spoken to.

[raven200]

yes indeed i am finding things online. my knowledge of ahmadi beliefs is mostly second hand, as you are the first ahmadi i have properly spoken to.

please can you show me the link on the alislam site for mirza ghulams prophecies about Abdullah Khan Atham? i cant seem to find the prophecies section on the site?

I have pasted a large extract relating to the Prophecy of Atham:

But you can read it for yourself, all of it from the following link:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-5.pdf

Pages 63 onwards. (please use the page numbers of the sheet and not displayed in the PDF numbering.)

The link above is to the book Essence of Islam volume 5.

This mainly covers a number of revelation and prophecies by Hadhrat Massiah Maud.

[islamvslizards]

ok brother, thanks. reading it now, in the meantime, can we concentrate on the ahmadi salah?

[raven200]

ok brother, thanks. reading it now, in the meantime, can we concentrate on the ahmadi salah?

Brother we can discuss salah if you want, but I think a more important topic is the return of Hadhrat Isa, on which I posted a response on one of the previous posts.

Anyway in relation to Salat:

Our jamaat has issued a book explaining how we read namaz in detail, you can have a look at that:

http://www.alislam.org/books/salat/index.html

In relation to hadith of folding arms:

Sahih al-Bukhari (Vol. 1, Chapter. 6, no. 707, pg. 396, English ed'n)

Hadith from Sahl ibn Sa'ad (Allah be pleased with him) who said: "The people were ordered to place the right hand on the left forearm in the prayer." Abu Hazim said, " I knew that the order was from the Prophet (Peace be upon him)." [see also Muwatta of Imam Malik, section 9.15, no 50, pg 70, English trans'n by A. Abdarahman and Y. Johnson for a very similar narration].

In footnote to Abu Dawood's Sunan (vol. 1, pg. 194, fn. 345, English ed'n)

Author of Awn al- Mabood (1,275), Shams al-Haqq Azimabadi, claimed that both Abu Ishaq al-Marwazi and al-Hafiz Ishaq ibn Rahwaih (one of Imam al-Bukhari's teachers) held the position that the hands should be folded below the navel! In his Sahih Muslim sharif-Mukhtasar Sharh Nawawi (vol. 2, pg. 28, fn. 23), Wahid az-Zaman (a late scholar of the 'Salafiyya' in Pakistan) also affirmed that the Imam's Sufyan al-Thawri, Abu Hanifah, Ishaq ibn Rahwaih and Abu Ishaq al-Marwazi (Allah's mercy be upon them) all used to place their hands below the navel!

Ahmadies agree with the notion of folding arms below the naval.

[islamvslizards]

Brother we can discuss salah if you want, but I think a more important topic is the return of Hadhrat Isa, on which I posted a response on one of the previous posts.


very well. we will return to salah later inshallah.

which post about hazrat isa shall we discuss bro?

[raven200]

very well. we will return to salah later inshallah.

which post about hazrat isa shall we discuss bro?

It was Post 189, on the second part of the post I had covered the same verse we were discussing earliar.

Brother have look and then inshallah we can continue the discussion later today or tomorrow as I am on my way out for now.

It is good to have a number of debates with someone who has an open mind to try and understand. What I will also do today or tomorrow is in a post and put some videos from youtube relating to Ahmadiyyat you may find them intresting.

Ok brother Inshallah will post further after Iftari or tomorrow.

:)

[raven200]

As I said I would post some youtube videos about Ahmadiyyat:

Below are link to them, expalining fundemental beleifs of the jamaat and also about the promised massiah and the khilafat that followed.

Islam Ahmadiyya - The Revival of Faith (Part-1) {English} - YouTube

Islam Ahmadiyya - The Revival of Faith (Part-2) {English} - YouTube

Islam Ahmadiyya - The Revival of Faith (Part-3) {English} - YouTube

Islam Ahmadiyya - The Revival of Faith (Part-4) {English} - YouTube

Islam Ahmadiyya - The Revival of Faith (Part-5) {English} - YouTube

Islam Ahmadiyya - The Revival of Faith (Part-6) {English} - YouTube

[mr t]

Raven, what do you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Uc8ALJEEs&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjK06DOTs-A&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPNLkZV2F7c&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8BNzsIrrZM&feature=channel


And what do you think of Mirza Ghulam recieving some of his revelations in in urdu AND english, then writing the english down in urdu?

why are ahmadis allowed residency in israel?

[raven200]

Raven, what do you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Uc8ALJEEs&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjK06DOTs-A&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPNLkZV2F7c&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8BNzsIrrZM&feature=channel


And what do you think of Mirza Ghulam recieving some of his revelations in in urdu AND english, then writing the english down in urdu?

why are ahmadis allowed residency in israel?

Well let me start with regards to the links to the videos you have posted. I on and off look at this guys youtube speeches for a good laugh.

He's got this mystic thing going on, with the dark background and and evil little grin, like you could say those gypsies in movies who are about to read or look into your future.

If you ask me what I think about his comments I will say that he does not have a clue and probably has some personal agenda. He says he used to be an Ahmadi but in relation to what he talks about he does not have any sound understanding of Ahmadiyyat or its core values.

I think he's trying to get praise by all those anti Ahmadies who would say shabash to him (well done), for spreading lies and twisting things and making it look all so realistic by quoting well in fact mis quoting and twisting words from books.

Truthfully this guy is leading himself towards some form of chastisement from God because he mocks God's revelation.

Any way moving onto your next question about revelation coming in english and then being translated in urdu.

Well, the promised massiah recieved revelation in Urdu, English, Persian and majority of the revelation was though in Arabic.

Now in order for a lot of people to understand the words of the revelation don't you think it would make sense to actually translate so people can understand, well the ones who don't speak the language.

Even the Arabic was translated so that people could understand.

The Promised massiah was blessed by God, which again is a sign that he was able to fluently write books in these languages and even was ordained to give a friday sermon in Arabic, a language that was not his mother tongue and had not learnt it.

He describes the following when giving this speech:



THE REVEALED SERMON

On the morning of 11th April, 1900, the day of Eid-ul-Adha, I received a revelation, ‘Today you shall make a speech in Arabic. You are given the power’. This was followed by the revelation:

(I was unable to copy and paste the arabic but you can see it in the following link)

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-5.pdf

Page 159 onwards.

This means, that the Gracious God has endowed this address with eloquence. The following people were immediately apprised of this revelation: The Late
Maulavi ‘Abdul Karim Sahib, Maulavi Hakim Nuruddin Sahib, Shaikh Rahmatullah Sahib, Mufti Muhammad Sadiq Sahib, Maulavi Muhammad ‘Ali Sahib M.A., Master ‘Abdul Rahman Sahib, Master Sher ‘Ali Sahib B.A., Hafiz ‘Abdul ‘Ali, and many others. Accordingly, I stood up after Eid prayer to deliver the Eid sermon in Arabic. God Almighty knows that the capacity was bestowed upon me from the unseen and the eloquent Arabic address that proceeded extemporarily from my mouth was definitely beyond my power. I cannot imagine that anyone in the world can deliver such a speech, extending over so many pages, with such eloquence and without the help of Divine revelation. This Arabic address, which has been named Khutbah Ilhamiyyah [The Revealed Sermon], was delivered to an audience of about two hundred
people. All praise is due to God.

It seemed as if a fountain had begun to flow from the unseen, and I knew not whether it was I who was speaking or whether it was an angel speaking through my tongue. I knew only that I had no part in this address. Sentence after sentence issued from my mouth and each one was for me a sign. These sentences have been published by the name of The Revealed Sermon.

Read this book and you will realize how impossible it is for someone to stand up and extemporarily deliver such a long speech in Arabic. This is a miracle of a literary nature that God has shown, and no one can present anything like it.


If you want to read the speech you can from the following link:

http://aaiil.org/text/books/mga/khutbahilhamiyya/khutbahilhamiyyadeepermeaningsacrificepdf.shtml

Finally to your final question or point that why are Ahmadies allowed residency in Israel well my friend either you are lacking in historical data or you have been kept unaware but other then Ahmadies, would you like to know whow many other muslims have residency in israel:

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

20% of the population of Israel are Arab citizens and vast majority of these are muslims.

I think a small sum of this would be Ahmadies as well, so what would your point be in relation to this?

[raven200]

firstly brother, double eclipses in ramadan are no unique or special occurence.

list of all the double eclipses in ramazan and their regularity (http://alhafeez.org/rashid/eclpart5.htm)

in fact they happen around once a century? the last one occured in 2003! and predicting them is fairly accurate, in fact eclipse predictions have been going on since early history, with the greeks and egyptians.

it is no great leap of logic that he would have known of this eclipse far in advance? maybe years in advance? and planned accordingly?

Coming back to the point relating to double eclipse in ramdhan, and hadith relating to this:

please see link below:

http://www.alislam.org/library/sign.html

No other person has ever claimed to be massih and Mahdi and then for these signs to appear. Is there anyone on earth who you can name who claimed that he was the Imam mahdi and massih of this time under the banner of Islam and then for the sign of the eclipse to appear and also the prophecy of plague to follow it appear as well.

You have to agree that when someone claims to be such a person that has been prophecised then these sign appear, do they not testify to his truth.

A lot of muslims believe that the Imam will come but he will be hiding around from people of the government because they will kill him, I mean a man of God and he will be fearing for his life and not have faith in God's protection, what sort of Imam is that.

This mythical Imam has been made up to cover up the fact that muslims have realised that the time of the coming has come and gone and no one has made claim.

Though the one man who has made the claim, the majority of leading ullemah and there followers have all denied him.

Have a read of the following link from a Non Ahmadi website and see how desperate they are to find some form of solution to the coming of the Imam, they seem to quote all the correct hadith and quranic ayats but yet still do not realise that these signs have taken place under the claim of one person, or they deny him because it was also prophecised the the ullamah of the time will all go against him.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1014130/posts

I mean these people are still preparing for something and the methadology of there preparation is absolutely herretical and extreme, rather then showing the truth of Islam via the Holy Quran and through Allah these people are planning a war, and are talking about weapon training etc.

This to some extent shows that the action the west is taking against these extremists is correct becuase these people are not protecting the faith rather they want to force faith on others.

The Holy Quran says: "There is no compulsion in religion". So who gives these people a right to go on a war path and force Islam over others.

Is not the way of Hadhrat Massiah Maud better, and that is to break lies, prove by using arguments from the truth of the Quran, and guidance from prayer.

What better way is there to spread the truth of Islam and that is through complete submission to God, rather then starting a war of a style that was used against Muslims in the time of the Holy prophet Mohammad (saw).

I say people there is still time, listen to your hearts and believe that Promised Massiah and Imam mahdi was non other then Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as).

[islamvslizards]

I say people there is still time, listen to your hearts and believe that Promised Massiah and Imam mahdi was non other then Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as).

brother raven, how do you know mirza ghulam to be the true mehdi, and not riaz gohar shahi? (http://www.goharshahi.com/)

both claim to be the awaited one, both claim miracles, both claim divine signs "proving" them, both originate from pakistan, both make prophecies, both have written books, both claim to be multiple roles (eg kalki avatar) in the same person.

what are your views on this? how can you prove mirza ghulam to be the awaited one, and gohar shahi to be a fraud?

secondly, every single hadith in islam from every single madhab is united that the awaited one will arise/return to fight and defeat the dajjal.

therefore, how did mirza ghulam defeat the dajjal?

[raven200]

brother raven, how do you know mirza ghulam to be the true mehdi, and not riaz gohar shahi? (http://www.goharshahi.com/)

both claim to be the awaited one, both claim miracles, both claim divine signs "proving" them, both originate from pakistan, both make prophecies, both have written books, both claim to be multiple roles (eg kalki avatar) in the same person.

what are your views on this? how can you prove mirza ghulam to be the awaited one, and gohar shahi to be a fraud?

secondly, every single hadith in islam from every single madhab is united that the awaited one will arise/return to fight and defeat the dajjal.

therefore, how did mirza ghulam defeat the dajjal?

Firstly it's the first time I'm hearing of Gohar Shahi, also have heavenly signs appeared for his claim?

Secondly Gohar Shahi never claimed to be Massiah on the contrary, he had strange notions such as that he had met Isa in America?

Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This man died with an end to his strange beliefs, He died humiliated and ignored by all.

What sort of man are you comparing to hadhrat Massiah maud?

The other point is that his few followers refer to him as being greater then the Holy Prophet nausbillah and have to some extent even praised to him God like assention.

This is nothing to what hadhrat massiah maud claimed. He was and is completely under the love and teaching of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw)

He brought no new religion and has revived Islam of false doctrines as I have been discussing, you are comparing Gold to dust....

The dajjal is all around my friend, Western Powers that utilise capitalism to assertain there influence over the poor and then take for the rich, this is the dajjal and my friend God is slowly bringing all this to an end, as you are aware christianity is the main source of energy behind all of this.

Ahmadiyyat will and is showing the truth to christianity through the revelation and insight given to hadhrat massiah maud relating to Jesus not dying on the cross and in fact dying in india.

If you read hadhrat Massiah Mauds book he has given unequivical evidence about the misconception behind the christian faith, Inshallah as I have informed you though the promised massiah has passed away yet his work continues through his followers and guidance under khilafat.

Also dajjal to some extent is also explained as the Maulana of today who are under a form of dajjaliyat. There mind is full of hate and only desires for themselves.

Brother all this is being destroyed and by God you will see that Under the shade of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw) true teachings and also the revival of Islamic misconceptions via the promised massiah.

The Dajjal will be destroyed.

I will go into more detail relating to the dajjal in another post, so that you can clearly understand what hadith mean in relation to dajjal.

[islamvslizards]

Firstly it's the first time I'm hearing of Gohar Shahi, also have heavenly signs appeared for his claim?

Secondly Gohar Shahi never claimed ot be Massiah on the contrary, he had strange notions such as that he had met Isa in America?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riaz_Ahmed_Gohar_Shahi

unfortunately, his followers insist there are all sorts of signs which "prove" he is the mahdi.

his image on the moon, his image on the hajr-e-aswad of the kaaba, his face is the "face on mars", his face on a piece of marble in some random hotel in pakistan, his image in the clouds, and his face in space can all be seen on the homepage (http://www.goharshahi.com/)

so, how can you prove that *his* (admittedly odball) signs are false and *yours* are true?


The Dajjal will be destroyed.

by whom, if not the mahdi?

[raven200]

unfortunately, his followers insist there are all sorts of signs which "prove" he is the mahdi.

his image on the moon, his image on the hajr-e-aswad of the kaaba, his face is the "face on mars", his face on a piece of marble in some random hotel in pakistan, his image in the clouds, and his face in space can all be seen on the homepage (http://www.goharshahi.com/)

so, how can you prove that *his* (admittedly odball) signs are false and *yours* are true?



by whom, if not the mahdi?

Well firstly there is documented evidence of the lunar and solar eclipse actually appearing in the time of hadhrat massiah maud, there are the actual books of hadhrat massiah maud that are a sign upon themselves.

There are his prophecise the like of which you can't even begin to compare with this person you have managed to find on the net.

Also the most important factor that at no point did hadhrat massiah maud claim to be or even his followers make him greater then our master the Holy prophet Mohammad (saw).

How can you compare someone who is truely under the influence and love of Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw) and has always championed his truth.

Whereas nausbillah this person you have found apprently has had his face seen on the kabbah.

Is it not apparent that any man who claims to be greater then the prophet Mohammad (saw) or even likened to God cannot be truthful. His followers are full of shirk.

My friend it saddens me that you are comparing such a person to the promised massiah. But as I am here to answer you and provide you with the knowledge that I have I shall continue to answer you. Even though I am very much so saddened by your unfortunately it is, a horrific comparison.

[islamvslizards]

My friend it saddens me that you are comparing such a person to the promised massiah. But as I am here to answer you and provide you with the knowledge that I have I shall continue to answer you. Even though I am very much so saddened by your unfortunately it is, a horrific comparison.

apologies; i was attempting to show that obvious frauds like gohar shahi make the same claims that mirza ghulam made, i.e. "divine" signs. we will talk about this later inshallah, i want to concentrate on something else:

you keep saying "the promised" messiah...yet what was "promised" and by who? because islamic texts are absolutely unanimous that the messiah will fight and defeat the dajjal. mirza ghulam did not do this, or even attempt to do this in any way, shape or form. you claim that he came to reform islam, yet that is not the *only* thing islam says the mahdi will do? what about the dajjal?

what are your views on this?

[raven200]

apologies; i was attempting to show that obvious frauds like gohar shahi make the same claims that mirza ghulam made, i.e. "divine" signs. we will talk about this later inshallah, i want to concentrate on something else:

you keep saying "the promised" messiah...yet what was "promised" and by who? because islamic texts are absolutely unanimous that the messiah will fight and defeat the dajjal. mirza ghulam did not do this, or even attempt to do this in any way, shape or form. you claim that he came to reform islam, yet that is not the *only* thing islam says the mahdi will do? what about the dajjal?

what are your views on this?

Brother I want to give you a complete answer in relation to the dajjal, I will post full details relating to dajjal in relation to hadith.

Please bear with me as I am currently at work and unable to give my full attention that is required to this. I will this evening go in great depth on this topic.

Then we can discuss this in detail.

Also brother in my previous post I had asked you to provide me with one name that had claimed he was the Massih and Mahdi and that the heavenly signs of the lunar and solar eclipse appeared for him in Ramadhan.

These signs importantly had to come while he was alive as when dead there is no point. So this person you gave the name of did a lunar and solar eclipse take place for him in ramadhan while he was alive?

I'm sure you won't be able to answer this with a Yes. As it was decreed by God that these signs were only to appear for the Massih when he proclaims his ministry.

[islamvslizards]

Also brother in my previous post I had asked you to provide me with one name that had claimed he was the Massih and Mahdi and that the heavenly signs of the lunar and solar eclipse appeared for him in Ramadhan.

These signs importantly had to come while he was alive as when dead there is no point. So this person you gave the name of did a lunar and solar eclipse take place for him in ramadhan while he was alive?

I'm sure you won't be able to answer this with a Yes. As it was decreed by God that these signs were only to appear for the Massih when he proclaims his ministry.

brother the double eclipse is not unique, its happened many times since and it will happen again, plus it is not the only sign.

what mirza ghulam and his followers have done, is found obscure hadiths which seem to correspond to him, and ignore the majority which dont!

let me give you an example:

1) Imam's (as) inherited weapons:

From Kitab al-Irshad by Shaykh al-Mufid, translation by I.K.A. Howard, Ansariyan publications, Chapter V (Imam Ja'far b. Muhammad al-Sadiq (as))

He, peace be on him, used to say: "Our knowledge is of what will be (ghabir), of what is past (mazbur), of what is marked in hearts (nakt fi al-qulub), and of what is tapped into ears (naqr fi al-asma). We have the red case (jafr), the white case, and the scroll of Fatima, peace be on her, and we have (the document called) al-jami'a in which is everything the people need."

He was asked to explain these words and he said: "Ghabir is knowledge of what will be; mazbur is knowledge of what was; what is marked in the hearts (nakt fi al-qulub) is inspiration; and what is tapped into the ears (naqr fi al- asma) are words of angels; we hear their speech but we do not see their forms. The red case (jafr) is a vessel in which are the weapons of the Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family. It will never leave us until the one (destined) among us members of the House, to arise (qa'im), arises. The white case (jafr) is a vessel in which are the Torah of Moses, the Gospels of Jesus, the Psalms of David and the (other) Books of God. The scroll of Fatima, peace be on her, has in it every event which will take place and the names of all the rulers until the (last) hour comes. (The document called) al-jami'a is a scroll seventy yards long which the Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family, dictated from his own mouth and Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be on him, wrote in his own handwriting. By God, in it is everything which people need until the end of time, including even the blood-wit for wounding, and whether a (full) flogging or half a flogging (is due).

Page 415:

[Mu'awiya b. Wahb. reported on the authority of Said al- Simman:]

I was with Abu 'Abd Allah Ja'far b. Muhammad, peace be on them, when two of the Zaydis visited him. They asked him: "Is there among you an Imam whom it is a duty to obey?"

"No," he replied.

"Reliable men have told us on your authority that you claim to be him," they retorted. They named some people and said: "These are men of piety and distinction. They are among those who do not lie."

Abu 'Abd Allah, peace be on him. became angry and said: "I have not told them that."

When the two men saw the anger on his face, they left.

"Do you know those two?" he asked me.

"Yes," I replied, "they are from the people of our market. They are Zaydis and they claim that Abd Allah b. al-Hasan has the sword of Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family."

"They are liars, may God curse them," he said. "By God, Abd Allah b. al-Hasan has never seen it either with both his eyes or even with one of them. O God, not even his father has seen it unless he saw it with Ali b. al-Husayn, peace be on him. If they are truthful, (ask them) what is the sign in the hilt and what is the mark on its blade. I have the sword of the Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family. I have the standard of the Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family, and his breast-plate, his armour and his helmet. If they are truthful (ask them) what is the mark on the breast-plate of the Apostle of God, may God bless him and grant him peace. Indeed the victorious standard of the Apostle of God is with me, as are the tablets and rod of Moses. I have the ring of Solomon, the son of David, and the tray on which Moses used to offer sacrifice and I have (knowledge) of the (greatest) name (of God) which when the Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family, used to put it between the Muslims and the polytheists no arrow from the polytheists could reach the Muslims. I have the same as what the angels brought. We have the weapons in the same way that the Banu Isra'll had the ark of the covenant. Prophecy was brought to any house in which the ark of the covenant was present; the Imamate will be brought to which ever of us receives the weapons. My father dressed in the armour of the Apostle of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, and it made marks on the ground. I put it on and it was (like) it was (for my father). The one (destined to) rise up (qa'im) from among us, will fill it (so that it fits him exactly) when he puts it on, if God wishes.


Also, if you are going to doubt the authencity then I would suggest reading regarding the book Kitab al Irshad and its authencity. The Scholar has chosen only those hadiths which are authentic.

[raven200]

apologies; i was attempting to show that obvious frauds like gohar shahi make the same claims that mirza ghulam made, i.e. "divine" signs. we will talk about this later inshallah, i want to concentrate on something else:

you keep saying "the promised" messiah...yet what was "promised" and by who? because islamic texts are absolutely unanimous that the messiah will fight and defeat the dajjal. mirza ghulam did not do this, or even attempt to do this in any way, shape or form. you claim that he came to reform islam, yet that is not the *only* thing islam says the mahdi will do? what about the dajjal?

what are your views on this?

Ok brother is is very important that we first understand who the dajjal is or will be, There are a number of Hadith from the holy Prophet explaining the coming of the Dajjal and one of these hadith also gives description of the Massih.

Now as you will be aware that in one of the post earliar I posted a hadith which stated that the Holy prophet had given two descriptions of hadhrat Isa.

The first was :

in Sahih Bukhari, page 489, the Holy Prophet (sa) described him as of medium height, reddish complexion, curly hair, and a broad chest.

Now you would agree that this is a description of someone who is very much of Jewish lineage as as this was and is the physical appearance of the people of that lineage.

Whereas the description the Holy prophet has given of the Massih for the time of when the dajjal is to have come is:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.242 Abdullah narrated:

The Prophet mentioned the Massiah Ad-Dajjal in front of the people saying, Allah is not one eyed while Messiah, Ad-Dajjal is blind but one eye will be covered by thick film and the other will be protruding like a bulging out grape. While sleeping near the Ka'ba last night, I saw in my dream a man of brown color the best one can see amongst brown color and his hair was long that it fell between his shoulders. His hair was lank and water was dribbling from his head and he was placing his hands on the shoulders of two men while circumambulating the Kaba. I asked, 'Who is this?' They replied, 'This is Jesus, son of Mary.' Behind him I saw a man who had very curly hair and was blind in the right eye, resembling Ibn Qatan (i.e. an infidel) in appearance. He was placing his hands on the shoulders of a person while performing Tawaf around the Ka'ba. I asked, 'Who is this? 'They replied, 'The Masih, Ad-Dajjal."

So again is it not apparent that the Massih that was to come in the time of the dajjal was not the same man.

Now going back to the Dajjal and realising who is the dajjal:

http://etori.tripod.com/on-antichrist.html

The link above shows numerous Hadith relating to the dajjal, now what I will do is go through some of these hadith and explain that what they state, and there meaning as description of the Dajjal were explained to the followers of the Holy Prophet at a time when they could not understand things like Aeroplanes, Jet fighters, tanks, cars and various techological advances of today powered by Fire. Therefore the Holy prophet gave the description in a manner there it would highlight the main attributes of the Dajjal, so I will discuss these via hadith first and then I shall put forward the explanation Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed gave of the Dajjal.

First Hadith

Sahih Muslim Hadith 6931 Narrated by Hudhayfah ibn Usayd Ghifari

Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion) He said: What do you discuss about? (the Companions) said: We are discussing about the Last Hour. Thereupon he said: It will not come until you see ten signs before and (in this connection) he made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), The Gog and Magog, and landslides in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.

Looking at this hadith we can see that the disciples (sahabah) of the holy Prophet (saw) are discussing the Last Hour.

in reponse to there discussion the Holy Prophet (saw) relates to them certain criteria in terms of signalling the arrival of the last day.

one of them being the Dajjal, now if you notice the chronology. The Dajjal in relation to the coming of Hadhrat Isa is before that. Therefore it can be established that the Dajjal would have arrived beforehand.

Now looking at a Hadith that give a bit more description of the Dajjal:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.554 Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Shall I not tell you about the Dajjal a story of which no prophet told his nation? The Dajjall is one-eyed and will bring with him what will resemble Hell and Paradise, and what he will call Paradise will be actually Hell; so I warn you (against him) as Noah warned his nation against him."

Now the Holy Prophet states that the Dajjal will be One-eyed, now as long as you realise that it does not define a mythical cyclopse appearing then you can be very clear about the matter that the one eye represents the Eye for simply looking at the materialistic world, as further in the same hadith the Holy prophet says (saw) "will bring with him what will resemble Hell and Paradise, and what he will call Paradise will be actually Hell;"

So what can it be that he brings that will look like to man Heaven but it will be hell and Hell that will look like heaven. Well in the west the lifestyle that became the norm about 200 or 150 years ago especially after America was established. (On April 30, 1789, George Washington, standing on the balcony of Federal Hall on Wall Street in New York, took his oath of office as the first President of the United States.)

You should be very much aware of how America goes about promoting democracy around the world and that the wars it has taken upon itself are to bring about freedom and democracy, yet in reality they have been taking away freedom of not just there nation but of the world slowly. They have been utilising and promoting a notion of freedom which has allowed many sins to become acceptable, I don't think you would need for me to go into details relating to this as it is very much so understandable.

Now Brother the next hadith I am about to quote is very very important as it not only talks about the Dajjal but about the Third World War and then finally the day of judgement:

Sahih Muslim Hadith 7023 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr

Someone came to him and said: What is this hadith that you narrate that the Last Hour will come at a certain time? Thereupon he said: Hallowed be Allah, there is no god but Allah (or words to the same effect).

I have decided that I shall not narrate anything to anyone now. I have only said that you will see after some time an important event: that the (sacred) House (Ka'bah) will be burnt and it definitely happen. He then reported that Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal will appear in my Ummah and he will stay (in the world) for forty--I cannot say whether he meant forty days, forty months or forty years. Allah will then send Jesus, son of Mary, who will resemble Urwah ibn Mas'ud. He (Jesus Christ) will chase him and kill him. Then people will live for seven years, during which time there will be no rancour between any two persons.

After that Allah will send a cold wind from the direction of Syria. None will survive on Earth, having a speck of good in him or faith in him: he will die. Even if some among you were to enter the innermost part of the mountain, this wind would reach that place also and cause your death. I heard Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) as saying: Only the wicked people will survive and they will be as careless as birds with the characteristics of beasts. They will never appreciate good nor condemn evil. Then Satan will come to them, in human form, and would say: Don't you respond? They will say: What do you order us to do? He will command them to worship the idols but, in spite of this, they will have an abundance of sustenance and lead comfortable lives. Then the trumpet will be blown and he who hears it will bend his neck to one side and raise it from the other side.

The first one to hear that trumpet will be the person who is busy in setting right the cistern meant for supplying water to the camels. He will faint and the other people will also faint. Then Allah will send or He will cause to be sent rain which will be like dew and there will grow out of it the bodies of people. Then the second trumpet will be blown and they will stand up and begin to look (around). Then it will be said: O people, go to your Lord. They will be made to stand there and they will be questioned. Then it will be said: Bring out a group (of them) for the Hell-Fire. It will be asked: How much? It will be said: Nine hundred and ninety-nine out of one thousand for the Hell-Fire. That will be the day that will make the children old because of its terror and that will be the day about which it has been said: "On the day when the shank will be uncovered".

Now the above hadith speaks about the Dajjal also appearing in the Holy Prophets Ummah, therefore from the description from a number of hadith it becomes clear that the Dajjal will not be one person but in fact be a group of people, who are inclined towards evil. Today it has become apparent that the clerics and maulana's preach nothing but hate, openly lie and take untruthful oaths and also are responsible for deaths of so many innocents that one cannot count.

Now we know this has been the case of clerics for many many years now, and the Holy Prophet (saw) states that then will the massiah come, now in this hadith it does say son of Mary but straight after that he states that he will resemble "Urwah ibn Mas'ud". Now this can only mean again that he is not talking about the same Isa as was born to Mary as he would and could not resemble Urwah ibn Mas'ud because Urwah ibn Mas'ud was of brown skin and brown hair, so again clear evidence that Isa born to Mary will not come back if he was to resemble Urwah ibn Mas'ud he would most probably have had to genetically change his physical appearence.

So at this point we have established that the Dajjal will arrive before the Massih and we have identified clearly that the description of the Dajjal is on of the leaders of America and the other of Evil clerics from his Ummah.

Also we have established when the American parliament was officially established.

Also we already knew that the Holy prophet had mentioned in hadith that the coming of the massih was to be in the 14th Century (Islamic calendar) Therefore is it not so so evident that they only nation to rise that shows exactly the same characteristics of the Dajjal was America, and that the only man to claim that he was the Massih and Mahdi was none other then Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.

Therefore what else is left now my brother, are you waiting for the day of judgement.

But we yet have to discuss some matters that are still to come, which are not far now, still mentioned in the above hadith.

After that Allah will send a cold wind from the direction of Syria. None will survive on Earth, having a speck of good in him or faith in him: he will die. Even if some among you were to enter the innermost part of the mountain, this wind would reach that place also and cause your death.

The above is that part that is talking about the Third world war, but in the above hadith there are possibly parts missing or it has been mis interpreted as it says only the wicked people will survive.

But in another hadith it is said:

Sahih Muslim Hadith 3187 Narrated by AbuHurayrah

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Dajjal will come from the eastern side with the intention of attacking Medina until he will get down behind Uhud. Then the angels will turn his face towards Syria and there he will perish.

That it will in fact be the Dajjal that dies from this turn of of wind from Syria. So as we understand that it is the Dajjal that is to be defeated and he will be destroyed when he turns his face towards Syria.

My brother right now do you know who has surrounded the Kabah, it is none other then the American and European Armies, and we know who leads them, it is America.

The time therefore is not far now when this event will take place, so brother you know the dajjal has reached the doors of Makkah and the Massih was to come before this event to take place then How can you not see that the Massih has already come.

Another Hadith that describe and give warning to the Ullamah, which it has become apprent have not been heeded:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5.685 Narrated by Ibn Umar

We were talking about Hajjat-ul-Wada, while the Prophet was amongst us. We did not know what Hajjat-ul-Wada' signified. The Prophet praised Allah and then mentioned Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal and described him extensively, saying, "Allah did not send any prophet but that prophet warned his nation of Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. Noah and the prophets following him warned (their people) of him. He will appear amongst you (O Muhammad's followers), and if it happens that some of his qualities may be hidden from you, but your Lord's State is clear to you and not hidden from you. The Prophet said it thrice. Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he (i.e. Ad-Dajjal) is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out (of its cluster). No doubt,! Allah has made your blood and your properties sacred to one another like the sanctity of this day of yours, in this town of yours, in this month of yours." The Prophet added: No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you?" They replied, "Yes," The Prophet said thrice, "O Allah! Be witness for it." The Prophet added, "Woe to you!" (or said), "May Allah be merciful to you! Do not become infidels after me (i.e. my death) by cutting the necks (throats) of one another."

At the end of the hadith the prophet has warned to his Sahabah to not be like the infidels but killing each other, but you are aware from history that it was not long after the death of the Holy Prophet that muslims started killing one another, but in this time and age the age of the dajjal muslims have taken this to another level whereby everyday hundereds are killing each other, not one day goes by that we hear that muslim suicide bomber kills other muslims.

Another sign of the Dajjal explained in the following hadith relates to how Interest and debt is related to Dajjal:

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 1.795 Narrated by Aisha

(the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Apostle used to invoke Allah in the prayer saying "Allahumma inni a'udhu bika min adhabil-qabri, wa a'udhu bika min fitnatil-masihid-dajjal, wa a'udhu bika min fitnatil-mahya wa fitnatil-mamati. Allahumma inni a'udhu bika minal-ma thami wal-maghrami. (O Allah, I seek refuge with You from the punishment of the grave and from the afflictions of Masiah Ad-Dajjal and from the afflictions of life and death. O Allah, I seek refuge with You from the sins and from being in debt)." Somebody said to him, "Why do you so frequently seek refuge with Allah from being in debt?" The Prophet replied, "A person in debt tells lies whenever he speaks, and breaks promises whenever he makes (them)." 'Aisha also narrated: I heard Allah's Apostle in his prayer seeking refuge with Allah from the afflictions of Ad-Dajjal.

The end of the system is not far now as you are aware that the current economic crisis has shown that debt is the most common thing around the world today and therefore it would be true to say that as according to the holy prophet people in debt are liars and looking at the whole world is in debt in relation to nations being in debt does this not state that they are all liars and we are well aware that almost all politicians break promises. Also who is it that controls majority of this capitalistic market, it is the Jews and the Americans who have very much so established this, and majority of nations follow them thinking that it leads to prosperity but has it?

So brother the signs are all there the time of defeat of dajjal is not far and the Massih has already come and under the Light of Islam he has promoted Peace and love and the destruction of the dajjal cannot be one that is like of one of which a man slays another man, but of one that slowly through God the truthful believers will survive by accepting the massih and by continuing his message so that ultimately majority of the world will come to believe and the dajjal meaning the paradise it shows, which infact is hell dissapears as there are no more to follow in his path.

I shall continue on this post, as there is still a lot more to discuss, bear with me:

[miracles]

I like muslims, your cool guys. What does inshallah mean?

[raven200]

I like muslims, your cool guys. What does inshallah mean?

Inshallah mean = If God wills.

We tend to use this word when preparing to do something, as we understand that all we do will and can only be successfully be accomplished if God wills.

[islamvslizards]

brother raven let me summarise my issues with the claims that mirza ahmad was the messiah:

(1) you claim that he came as a "reformer", yet he reformed nothing, not the prayer, not the hajj, not one of the pillars of islam. in fact, all he actually changed was that he took "sunnism" and attached a belief that he was the awaited messiah onto it. this is not reform. reform is a change in the fundamentals, the building blocks of the faith. if he came to reform then the FIRST thing he would reform would be the prayer. yet you state he prays "as sunnis do". even though sunnis all pray differently.

(2) secondly, he claimed that he was the messiah, yet every single source says that the messiah will fight and defeat the dajjal. mirza ghulam did not do this at all, or even attempt to do this.

(3) you say he was the messiah sent to instruct muslims what the "real" islam is. yet i very much doubt that hardly any non pakistani muslims even know who he is. let alone non muslims. arabs and iranians have never heard of him and unfortunately think this is all some kind of joke.

so if he was not the reformer, and he did not defeat the dajjal, and from my previous post we can see that he only actually fulfilled one (VERY dubious) prophecy, ignoring 99.99% of the rest of them completely, how can you therefore say he was the chosen messiah with any confidence?

[raven200]

brother raven let me summarise my issues with the claims that mirza ahmad was the messiah:

(1) you claim that he came as a "reformer", yet he reformed nothing, not the prayer, not the hajj, not one of the pillars of islam. in fact, all he actually changed was that he took "sunnism" and attached a belief that he was the awaited messiah onto it. this is not reform. reform is a change in the fundamentals, the building blocks of the faith. if he came to reform then the FIRST thing he would reform would be the prayer. yet you state he prays "as sunnis do". even though sunnis all pray differently.

(2) secondly, he claimed that he was the messiah, yet every single source says that the messiah will fight and defeat the dajjal. mirza ghulam did not do this at all, or even attempt to do this.

(3) you say he was the messiah sent to instruct muslims what the "real" islam is. yet i very much doubt that hardly any non pakistani muslims even know who he is. let alone non muslims. arabs and iranians have never heard of him and unfortunately think this is all some kind of joke.

so if he was not the reformer, and he did not defeat the dajjal, and from my previous post we can see that he only actually fulfilled one (VERY dubious) prophecy, ignoring 99.99% of the rest of them completely, how can you therefore say he was the chosen messiah with any confidence?

Let me ask you a few questions?

Do you or do you not believe the Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) is still sitting in heaven alive or in state of sleep, and is around over 2000 years old?

Do you or do you not believe that he will come down from the sky and literally start a war and kill non muslims who do not accept Islam?

Do muslims today not believe that some prophets phsyically lived alive for more then 800 years or so?

Do you believe as many muslims do but many do not now that the dajjal will physically be a one eyed man who will come to fight the massih?

These are some of the things he came to reform as muslims many of who are also dajjal as they also possess the one eye of the materialistic world rather then God had created beliefs which contradicted the Holy Quran.

I have already proven to you that the Holy Quran states that Jesus has died.

Now even after all of this if you want not to believe then brother it's your wish I can only pass the message to you or possibly others who will be reading this debate.

If you are lucky enough to recieve the message then may Allah guide you, you can also simply just pray that God show you the truth.

In relation to who is Ahmadiyy and who has and who has not heard of him; and that the Iranians have not heard of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, well how is it that you know who has and who has'nt heard of him, I agree there are people who have not heard of him but God will show the truth to the people who really deserve it, I just want to post another hadith below:

Sahih Muslim Hadith 7034 Narrated by Anas ibn Malik

Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls.

Isfehan is in Iran brother and majority of Iran is Shia who take Hadhrat Ali to be greater then the Holy Prophet (saw).

Therefore as I said the true believer will and have recieved the message and Allah will show them the truth if they are willing to open both eyes rather then the one eye of the dajjal.

[islamvslizards]

Let me ask you a few questions?

ok bro


Do you or do you not believe the Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) is still sitting in heaven alive or in state of sleep, and is around over 2000 years old?

alive - yes. in heaven - probably not. in a state of existence i do not understand - yes.


Do you or do you not believe that he will come down from the sky

dont know about come from the sky, but he will re-appear yes


and literally start a war and kill non muslims who do not accept Islam?

absolutely not. shia and sunni hadiths differ here, i trust the narrator chains of the shia hadiths, since in most of the sunni ones they are either partial or missed out completely.


Do muslims today not believe that some prohets phsyically lived alive for more then 800 years or so?

it is spelled out in the quran, without any allegory. to deny it is to deny the quran.


Do you believe as many muslims do but many do not now that the dajjal will physically be a one eyed man who will come to fight the massih?

brother most sunnis believe he is a man. shias believe (and have always believed) that he was a symbol, a mascot of an institution.


These are some of the things he came to reform as muslims

why are these more important than the prayer, or the hajj etc, that muslims differ on? for eg why dont ahmadis pray on earth, instead of carpet?


many of who are also dajjal as they also possess the one eye of the materialistic world rather then God had created beliefs which contradicted the Holy Quran.

brother there have always been people of certain beliefs that contradict the quran. see the khawarij for an example


I have already proven to you that the Holy Quran states that Jesus has died.

no, you proved that jesus will be dead by judgement day, i never contested this, since ALL humans will die by then. this is not evidence that he is dead.


Now even after all of this if you want not to believe then brother it's your wish I can only pass the message to you or possibly others who will be reading this debate.

If you are lcuky enough to recieve the message then may Allah guide you, you can also simply just pray that God show you the truth.

inshallah.


In relation to who is Ahmadiyy and who is not and that the Iranians have not heard of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, well how is it that you know who has and who has'nt heard of him, I agree there are people who have not heard of him but God will show the truth to the people who really deserve it, I just to post another hadith below:

Sahih Muslim Hadith 7034 Narrated by Anas ibn Malik

Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls

i.can.not.BELIEVE that you just posted that hadith :eek:

do you want me to break down exactly, via ilm e rijal, sanad and matn why that hadith is rejected?


Isfehan is in Iran brother and majority of Iran is Shia who take Hadhrat Ali to be greater then the Holy Prophet (saw).

yet another falsehood? whats gotten into you bro? nusayris/ alawis are based in syria, not iran, and they naudhobillah believe that ali was ALLAH astagfirullah. in fact the president of syria is an alawi himself.

where does isfahan, one of the great centres of learning, come into this?


Therefore as I said the true believer will and have recieved the message and Allah will show them the truth if they are will to open both eyes rather then the one eye of the dajjal.

brother i am asking reasonable questions. what kind of messiah does nothing expected from a messiah?

[raven200]

ok bro



alive - yes. in heaven - probably not. in a state of existence i do not understand - yes.



dont know about come from the sky, but he will re-appear yes



absolutely not. shia and sunni hadiths differ here, i trust the narrator chains of the shia hadiths, since in most of the sunni ones they are either partial or missed out completely.



it is spelled out in the quran, without any allegory. to deny it is to deny the quran.



brother most sunnis believe he is a man. shias believe (and have always believed) that he was a symbol, a mascot of an institution.



why are these more important than the prayer, or the hajj etc, that muslims differ on? for eg why dont ahmadis pray on earth, instead of carpet?



brother there have always been people of certain beliefs that contradict the quran. see the khawarij for an example



no, you proved that jesus will be dead by judgement day, i never contested this, since ALL humans will die by then. this is not evidence that he is dead.



inshallah.



i.can.not.BELIEVE that you just posted that hadith :eek:

do you want me to break down exactly, via ilm e rijal, sanad and matn why that hadith is rejected?



yet another falsehood? whats gotten into you bro? nusayris/ alawis are based in syria, not iran, and they naudhobillah believe that ali was ALLAH astagfirullah. in fact the president of syria is an alawi himself.

where does isfahan, one of the great centres of learning, come into this?



brother i am asking reasonable questions. what kind of messiah does nothing expected from a messiah?

Brother in relation to you not making Hadhrat Ali greater then God and Holy Prophet, that is good but as you have admitted there are shias that do believe him to be so.

I apologise if you feel I had included you in them as well, as you don't then apologise that comment is not related to you.

Other then the rest of your response unfortunately it seems to me you have not read my posts properly and poosibly have been skim reading as you have not contested my comments relating to hadhrat Isa and how the Quran states that he has died:

Please read again post 189 and post 198 again and then respond;

[islamvslizards]

Sahih Muslim Hadith 7034 Narrated by Anas ibn Malik

Quote:
Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls.
Isfehan is in Iran brother and majority of Iran is Shia who take Hadhrat Ali to be greater then the Holy Prophet (saw).

let me just give you one single aspect, one side of my argument why you cannot use this against shias.

the myth of ibn saba part 1 (http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter10/1.html)
the myth of ibn saba part 2 (http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter10/2.html)
the myth of ibn saba part 3 (http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter10/3.html)
the myth of ibn saba part 4 (http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter10/4.html)
the myth of ibn saba part 5 (http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter10/5.html)

the Sahih Muslim hadith in question speaks of Jews coming from Isfahan and going with the Dajjal and in essence fighting with him.

This Sahih Muslim hadith could possibly be speaking of the Taliban! Why? Because the Taliban are overwhemingly made up of Pashtun people. For example
1) Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar(la); from Wikipedia; quote- Omar is an ethnic Pashtun, a member of the Hotak tribe, of the Ghilzai branch of the Pashtun. end quote.
2) The thankfully now dead mass murderer Mullah Dadullah(la)- again from Wikipedia; quote- He was an ethnic Pashtun from the Kakar tribe of Kalai-Kakaran village in Uruzgan province of Afghanistan. end quote.

Finally another quote- More notoriously, Pashtuns make up the ranks of the Taliban end quote.

No one important thing with Pashtuns there is some belief and evidence that Pashtuns may possibly be of Israelite descent (i.e. "the lost tribes of Israel). Article on the Pashtun/Israelite theory here:

Pashtun/Israelite theory (http://www.answering-christianity.com/lost_people_of_israel.htm)

Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some anthropologists lend credence to the oral traditions of the elder Pashtun tribes themselves. For example, according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites is traced to Maghzan-e-Afghani, a history compiled for Khan-e-Jehan Lodhi in the reign of Mughal Emperor Jehangir in the 16th century CE

so, even if this hadith were true, it would be more accurate that its actually referring to the taliban, or the fact that there are a sizeable number of jews living in isfahan anyway

[islamvslizards]

Brother in relation to you not making Hadhrat Ali greater then God and Holy Prophet, that is good but as you have admitted there are shias that do believe him to be so.

no bro, if someone believes ali > muhammed, he is no shia. thats why they are called nusayris, ghalis or alawis, not shias.


Other then the rest of your response unfortunately it seems to me you have not read my posts properly and poosibly have been skim reading as you have not contested my comments relating to hadhrat Isa and how the Quran states that he has died:

Please read again post 189 and post 198 again and then respond;

bro i have read, and replied. do you deny that allah is talking about judgement day?

also, why do ahmadis not pray on earth instead of carpet?

[raven200]

no bro, if someone believes ali > muhammed, he is no shia. thats why they are called nusayris, ghalis or alawis, not shias.



bro i have read, and replied. do you deny that allah is talking about judgement day?

also, why do ahmadis not pray on earth instead of carpet?

O.K.

I think I may have to explain this to you one more time...

I don't deny that the conversation between God and Jesus is that of the day of judgement, but in relation to that you said that Jesus was explaining about him not being able to witness his disciples making him into God, we can understand that this is clearly the First massiah who came to the Jews.

Now it is in relation to that time that Jesus says that you had caused me to die, so he could not witness what his disciples were making him into.

He is not talking about when he came back for the second time... Do you understand what I am saying now.


Also in relation to Ahmadies reading namaz on carpet...

Well what sort of question is that, we normally tend to read namaz like any other muslim on a janamaaz. If by chance we are in a situation that it is time for prayer and do not have access to janamaaz then we can read namaz on the bear earth.

So I don't understand what your point is?

Also in relation to the hadith I posted it is not about taliban, as how can it be because it says Isfehan and that is in Iran.

I don't disagree that the Afghan are one of the lost tribes of Israel but the tribes were taken to the east to Assuriya.

So some of the tribes very well could have gone to Iran. Anyhow in relation to false doctrine you agree with me that Alawi have such a faith that praises Hadharat Ali more, and there are many of them not just in syria but Iran as well. Infact there are 2.2 million alawis world wide in relation to the following link:

http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcalawi.html

So now these people are under the banner of Islam yet Ahmadiyys have been announced as non muslim in relation to this I would like to post another hadith:

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked,'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions."

Now in the time of the Holy prophet muslims were extremely persecuted, they were not allowed to say the kalima, they were not allowed to say slaam to anyone, they were killed for there belief.

Now out of all 73 sects all of them have openly declared Ahmadiyys as non muslim and Ahmadiyy mosques are not allowed to have mosque written on them or kalima. Other muslims in many countries do not want to even say slaam to Ahmadiyys.

I shall post videos of this from you tube so you can see for yourself that like at the time of Holy Prophet how Ahmadies are treated in the same manner.

Yet they do not move from there faith, as in previous post I gave you the example of Abdul Latif sahib of Afghanistan who was martyred and stoned to death for his belief.

Many Ahmadies have been murdered simply for saying the kalima.

So brother, these are all signs.

[islamvslizards]

O.K.

I think I may have to explain this to you one more time...

apologies, my fast really affects my mind, since i usually cant eat until around half 10 at night, and thats the only time i eat until the next day, i promise you im not thick, just enormously tired lol. may allah grant us all sabr inshallah.


I don't deny that the conversation between God and Jesus is that of the day of judgement, but in relation to that you said that Jesus was explaining about him not being able to witness his disciples making him into God, we can understand that this is clearly the First massiah who came to the Jews.

yes, i agree, to the extent that we are talking about jesus, son of mary, known as the messiah.

we can see proof of this conversation happening on judgement day when we look at the context of the surrounding verses


[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
[5.117] 1 did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
[5.118] If Thou shouldst chastise them, then surely they are Thy servants; and if Thou shouldst forgive them, then surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
[5.119] Allah will say: This is the day when their truth shall benefit the truthful ones; they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide in them for ever: Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah; this is the mighty achievement.

so there is no doubt that

(1) these ayats are referring to jesus, son of mary
(2) these ayats are referring to judgement day


Now it is in relation to that time that Jesus says that you had caused me to die, so he could not witness what his disciples were making him into.

He is not talking about when he came back for the second time... Do you understand what I am saying now.

yes indeed i do. you are saying that jesus is basically saying "i was among them, it was ok. you caused me to die, after that, you are witness to what they did.

what we have here, is a breakdown of translations.

i take it you do not speak arabic?

let me show you the difference

SHAKIR:1 did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
YUSUF ALI: "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
PICKTHALL: 005.117 I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.

so what do we have? 2 of the three main translations say the same thing "took me up", which is different to "died".

what jesus is actually saying - in the original arabic - is that "when allah took me into ghaybat, he was witness of what they did, while i was in occultation"

would you like a breakdown of why the arabic word for "taken up" is not the same as "died", but shakir mistranslated it?



Also in relation to Ahmadies reading namaz on carpet...

Well what sort of question is that, we normally tend to read namaz like any other muslim on a janamaaz. If by chance we are in a situation that it is time for prayer and do not have access to janamaaz then we can read namaz on the bear earth.

So I don't understand what your point is?

brother its a very, very important question. no, a fundamental one.

the prophet ALWAYS prayed by placing his head on earth, almost NEVER (with few exceptions) on a jahnamaz. a messiah come to reform islam would reform this thing FIRST.


Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: I saw Allah's Apostle prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 12, no. 798; vol. 3, book 33, no. 244]

Narrated Anas bin Malik: We used to pray with the Prophet in scorching heat, and if someone of us could not put his face on the earth (because of the heat) then he would spread his clothes and prostrate over them.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 2, book 22, no. 299]

According to this hadith only in exceptional circumstances would the Prophet (s) and his Companions prostrate on cloth.

The Prophet (s) also used to have a Khumra on which he would put his forehead for prostration.

Narrated Maymuna: Allah's Apostle used to pray on a Khumra.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 8, no. 378]

According to al-Shawkani, a famous Sunni scholar, more than ten Companions of the Prophet (s) have narrated traditions mentioning his prostration on a Khumrah. And he lists all the Sunni sources recording these traditions which include Sahih Muslim, Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan al-Nasa'i and many others.
[Al-Shawkani, Nayl al-Awtar , Chapter of Prostration on the Khumrah, vol. 2, p. 128]

So what is a khumrah ?

a small mat sufficient just for the face and the hands while prostrating during prayers.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 8, no. 376 (as explained by the translator in paranthesis)]

Ibn al-'Athir, another famous Sunni scholar, in his Jami al-'Usul has written:
"Khumra is [like that] upon which the Shi'ah of our time perform their prostrations."
[Ibn al-'Athir, Jami' al-Usul, (Cairo, 1969), vol. 5, p. 467]

"Khumra is a small mat made from palm fibres or other material…. and it is like that which the Shi'ah use for prostration."
[Talkhis al-Sihah, p. 81]

why did mirza ghulam not know this?


Also in relation to the hadith I posted it is not about taliban, as how can it be because it says Isfehan and that is in Iran.

its a theory that either

(1) the hadith is referring to the jews who live in isfahan currently
(2) the taliban taking over iran at some point in the future.

however this is meaningless, my point was that the hadith is rejected, and you cant use it to claim shias = jews.


Anyhow in relation to false doctrine you agree with me that Alawi have such a faith that praises Hadharat Ali more, and there are many of them not just in syria but Iran as well. Infact there are 2.2 million alawis world wide in relation to the following link:

http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcalawi.html

yes, but numbers do not make them shia?


So now these people are under the banner of Islam yet Ahmadiyys have been announced as non muslim in relation to this I would like to post another hadith:



Now in the time of the Holy prophet muslims were extremely persecuted, they were not allowed to say the kalima, they were not allowed to say slaam to anyone, they were killed for there belief.

Now out of all 73 sects all of them have openly declared Ahmadiyys as non muslim and Ahmadiyy mosques are not allowed to have mosque written on them or kalima. Other muslims in many countries do not want to even say slaam to Ahmadiyys.

brother i do not agree at all by the way ahmadis are treated. i find it disgusting, ignorant and stupid.

[raven200]

Ok brother the next post I shall discuss the Arabic word in the translation and to how it means die and not taken up.

I need to do some research on this, also I ma at work and will post again later today.

Inshallah may Allah guide you and me to the right path.

[eternal_spirit]

quote islamvslizards
absolutely not. shia and sunni hadiths differ here, i trust the narrator chains of the shia hadiths, since in most of the sunni ones they are either partial or missed out completely.
Well there you go then, you think sunnis are wrong and you being a shia think shias are right. Millions of sunnis would disagree with you and that's been one of my main points all along.

PS thanks Raven for a different perspective on Islam from a differnt sect than ILVS.

Not read much of this thread yet. That's all I wanted to say.

[islamvslizards]

Ok brother the next post I shall discuss the Arabic word in the translation and to how it means die and not taken up.


brother lets look at the word in arabic.

the word in arabic for death is "mawt". it is the same word in farsi, urdu, hindi and most other middle eastern languages.

the ayat is this:

وإذ قال ٱلله يعيسى ٱبن مريم ءأنت قلت للناس ٱتخذونى وأمى إلهين من دون ٱلله قال سبحنك ما يكون لى أن أقول ما ليس لى بحق إن كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم ما فى نفسى ولآ أعلم ما فى نفسك إنك أنت علم ٱلغيوب
ما قلت لهم إلا مآ أمرتنى به أن ٱعبدوا ٱلله ربى وربكم وكنت عليهم شهيدا ما دمت فيهم فلما توفيتنى كنت أنت ٱلرقيب عليهم وأنت على كل شىء شهيد

توفيتنى as you know, is not the word for "mawt".

he word توفيتنى means returned me to You (Allah).

lets take a look in more detail:

أعوذ بالله من الشيطٰن الرجيم بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ
وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ لِمَن يُقْتَلُ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ أَمْوَٰتٌۢ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَآءٌۭ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَشْعُرُونَ
[2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

you see? mawt = dead.

can you see توفيتنى in this ayat that actually uses the word "die"?

[raven200]

Well there you go then, you think sunnis are wrong and you being a shia think shias are right. Millions of sunnis would disagree with you and that's been one of my main points all along.

PS thanks Raven for a different perspective on Islam from a differnt sect than ILVS.

Not read much of this thread yet. That's all I wanted to say.

No problem Eternal, we have mainly been discussing in this thread the second coming of Jesus in the Islamic perspective.

Also I have been providing information relating to the person my sect beleive to be the second coming of Jesus and not in the physical sense.

Due to this belief we are the only sect in Islam pronounced as non muslim and it is our sect that has the moto:

" Love for All Hatred for non".

I hope you have a read, you may not understand some parts but there maybe posts you find beneficial.

Islamvslizard Inshallah I shall post on this later thanks for your post I have read it will respond.

[islamvslizards]

Well there you go then, you think sunnis are wrong and you being a shia think shias are right.

thats not what i said.

i said i trust the shia hadiths which refer to the topic we are discussing since almost every link in the chain of narrators is present and able to be scrutinised. most sunni hadiths have broken or missing chains, making them "mursal" or "daeef".

this, as i am sure you can work out, is not the same as me rejecting all sunni hadiths, especially since many sunni hadiths deal with shia issues.

which i bet you did not know.


Millions of sunnis would disagree with you and that's been one of my main points all along.

your points, like your posts, have been meaningless rubbish.

[eternal_spirit]

this, as i am sure you can work out, is not the same as me rejecting all sunni hadiths, especially since many sunni hadiths deal with shia issues.your points, like your posts, have been meaningless rubbish. I never said you reject ALL. Fact is Millions of Muslims disagree with you on certain points. So your last statement is utter nonsense as usual.

[raven200]

People can we not get into an argument that will not lead to anything.

I think it is more beneficial if we discuss points which we can have an in depth debate about rather then just accuse one another.

Rather this thread stays fresh with strong debate.

The two of you will never agree on certain points so at that we should agree to disagree. :)

[islamvslizards]

^^ lol indeed. mashallah you keep your calm much easier than i do with a fast bro :)

shall we carry on?

[raven200]

^^ lol indeed. mashallah you keep your calm much easier than i do with a fast bro :)

shall we carry on?

Yup we should carry on, but I will put my main in depth post later on as I'm unable to give time to in depth post due to work requirements.

But inshallah will post on the arabic of the word we are discussing later today or tomorrow morning.

I keep coming back to have a read lol.

[islamvslizards]

lol :D inshallah

[raven200]

brother lets look at the word in arabic.

the word in arabic for death is "mawt". it is the same word in farsi, urdu, hindi and most other middle eastern languages.

the ayat is this:

وإذ قال ٱلله يعيسى ٱبن مريم ءأنت قلت للناس ٱتخذونى وأمى إلهين من دون ٱلله قال سبحنك ما يكون لى أن أقول ما ليس لى بحق إن كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم ما فى نفسى ولآ أعلم ما فى نفسك إنك أنت علم ٱلغيوب
ما قلت لهم إلا مآ أمرتنى به أن ٱعبدوا ٱلله ربى وربكم وكنت عليهم شهيدا ما دمت فيهم فلما توفيتنى كنت أنت ٱلرقيب عليهم وأنت على كل شىء شهيد

توفيتنى as you know, is not the word for "mawt".

he word توفيتنى means returned me to You (Allah).

lets take a look in more detail:

أعوذ بالله من الشيطٰن الرجيم بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ
وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ لِمَن يُقْتَلُ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ أَمْوَٰتٌۢ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَآءٌۭ وَلَٰكِن لَّا تَشْعُرُونَ
[2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

you see? mawt = dead.

can you see توفيتنى in this ayat that actually uses the word "die"?

Brother you agree in this post that the word in arabic for death is maut, well brother other then the verse above there is another verse in the Holy Quran talking about Hadhrat Isa that uses this word in relation to his death:

Chapter 3 Verse 55.

http://www.multimediaquran.com/quran/003/003-055.htm

3:55 idh qaalal-laahu yaa 'Iysaa in-niy mutawaf-fiyka wa raafi'Uka ilay-ya wa muTah-hiruka minal-ladhiyna kafaruu wa jaa'Ilul-ladhiynat-taba'UUka fawqal-ladhiyna kafaruu ilaa yawmil qiyaamah* thum-ma ilay-ya marji'Ukum fa aHkumu baynakum fiymaa kuntum fiyhi takhtalifuun

Now normally they translate this verse as (raise thee to myself) but as you can clearly see in the arabic the word muta is there which means death in arabic.

Also going back to the original verse we were discussing below is a link to another forum where a brother with knowledge of Arabic has clearly explained the meaning of the word (tawaffa)

http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?t=1508

Now it seems like initially all translators purposely did not translate this as death as it would go against what the norm had become in muslim understanding and belief regarding hadhrat Isa but further on Shakir managed to translate another verse using the word to die as he must have realised that this was the second time the Quran was clearly saying that hadhrat Isa had died.

Brother is this not becoming more and more clear hadhrat Isa has died and that he did die 2000 years ago when he came to the Jews.

[eternal_spirit]

Brother is this not becoming more and more clear hadhrat Isa has died and that he did die 2000 years ago when he came to the Jews.
Jews claim they killed Jesus according to their own comments in their Talmud.

[raven200]

Jews claim they killed Jesus according to their own comments in their Talmud.

Your right Eternal that is what the Jews Claim but this is a whole other debate on it's own right as I do believe and thats what has been proved that Jesus had died.

Though I do not believe he died at the hands of the Jews, we would have to discuss this in context with the bible and how Jesus could not have died on the cross.

I believe that he was saved and then went east to find the lost sheep of Israel, which was one of his missions and died at a right old age of 120 and his grave is in Kashmir (India).

Now if you want I can provide you evidence to why Jesus did not die on the cross.

[eternal_spirit]

Though I do not believe he died at the hands of the Jews, we would have to discuss this in context with the bible and how Jesus could not have died on the cross.

I believe that he was saved and then went east to find the lost sheep of Israel, which was one of his missions and died at a right old age of 120 and his grave is in Kashmir (India).

I have heard such storys. There are many other storys too stating he never died at Jerusalem on the cross and one story that he travelled to Britain.

Now if you want I can provide you evidence to why Jesus did not die on the cross.
No it's okay,carry on the debate and the threads topics with islamvslizards, but if you think it's on topic post what you like, you said you hadn't much time to post at the moment. I am also involved on other threads and short of time.

[raven200]

I have heard such storys. There are many other storys too stating he never died at Jerusalem on the cross and one story that he travelled to Britain.

No it's okay,carry on the debate and the threads topics with islamvslizards, but if you think it's on topic post what you like, you said you hadn't much time to post at the moment. I am also involved on other threads and short of time.

Sure, when we have more time we could possibly start a thread on that and discuss it.

Though you are right it will be a whole other debate and on this thread at the moment will confuse the subject matter. :)

[islamvslizards]

firstly apologies for the delay, had a busy few days.

there are a number of holes in the link you posted bro, although mashallah the user is quite obviously very knowledgeable.

it seems i will have to reply to it line by line, probably take a good few days tho. in the meantime can we carry on with mine and your conversation?

firstly, why is it that the majority of the signs of the appearance of the awaited one have been ignorned by mirza ghulam, and he only highlighted ones that seem to correspond to him, when the same hadiths he is telling everyone have come true, are in the same books, with the same chains and narrators as the ones he rejects, i.e. he has no reason to reject them, other than they do not fit in with what he is saying?

secondly, what was his mission? because he didnt actually reform anything, except getting some people to believe the possibility that jesus may or may not be dead, which is not actually a fundamental belief in islam anyway?

[yass]

I am somewhat nervous about writing this letter because of two reasons
a guy with a phd wouldn't be saying "because of" two reasons. He would be saying "for" two reasons.

little things like that...

[raven200]

I know I have not posted for sometime on this thread, but in relation to you "IslamvsLizard" consistantly asking as to how one can know the truth regarding the massih and Imam Mahdi, I can only guide you and inform you with a method that has been advised by God to Hadharat Masiah Maud.

If you are able to follow this correctly and as it has been advised, I can tell you with the deepest and strongest belief in my heart that you will be able to see the truth:


Words of the Massiah and Imam Mahdi of the age.

If someone is in doubt concerning me and my claim, I proceed to set out an easy way of resolving these doubts, which, God willing, will satisfy a true seeker. Anyone who has such doubts should repent sincerely and offer two rak‘as of prayer at night, reciting Surah Ya Sin in the first rak‘a and Surah Al-Ikhlas twenty-one times in the second rak‘a. Thereafter, calling down Durud [blessings on the Holy Prophetsa] three hundred times and asking Istighfar [forgiveness of sins] three hundred times, he should supplicate in the following
words:

‘O Powerful and Noble One! You know all hidden things and we do not know. The accepted one and the righteous one, the rejected one and the impostor, none can remain hidden from You. We, therefore, humbly ask You to reveal to us the true standing of this person who claims to be the Promised Messiah, the Mahdi and the Mujaddid [Reformer of the age]. Is he true or false? Is he, in Your estimation, an accepted one or a rejected one? Disclose his reality to us through a dream or vision or revelation, so that if he be a rejected one, we should not go astray by accepting him, and if he is an accepted one and is from You, we should not be ruined by denying and ridiculing him. Guard us against every trial, for You have every power (Amin).’

This supplication should be made for at least two weeks with an uncommitted mind. He whose mind is already full of rancour and ill-thinking and desires to know the truth concerning one whom he detests, is visited by Satan who, in accord with the darkness that fills his mind, injects further dark thoughts into it and his last condition becomes worse than the first. Thus, if you wish to ascertain something from God Almighty, you should first cleanse your bosom of all rancour and enmity and seek the light of guidance after completely emptying your mind both of rancour and of love. Then, according to His promise, God will surely bestow light upon you, which will be entirely free from any smoke of egoistic thoughts.

Inshallah I pray you get your answer, and to any other person who reads this.

[islamvslizards]

I know I have not posted for sometime on this thread, but in relation to you "IslamvsLizard" consistantly asking as to how one can know the truth regarding the massih and Imam Mahdi, I can only guide you and inform you with a method that has been advised by God to Hadharat Masiah Maud.


brother this is my problem.

mirza ghulam says that the way to identify the messiah is the way god only taught....mirza ghulam. do you see the circular argument here? its like american christians saying "the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is the word of god, therefore it is the word of god". in this case you are saying "mirza ghulam was the messiah because he said he was the messiah therefore he is the messiah".

the problem with that is as follows. please answer them individually.

- the majority of the signs of the reappearance/ appearance of the awaited one have simply not occured. mirza ghulam circumnavigated these by claiming those prophecies are false and the only real ones are the ones that seem to relate to him.

- you claim he came as a reformer, but he did not reform even a *single* fundamental pillar of islam. not one. think about how much difference there is in prayers alone, or the opening time for the fast, or historical events such as saqifa, ghadir, kisa, tayr, the event of brotherhood and countless others. he remained silent about all these crucial - who knows how many hundreds and thousands have DIED over these topics - issues, and instead focused on one tiny aspect of the faith i.e. whether jesus is alive or not, which isnt even a blip on the radar when it comes to importance in islam.

- the very nature of "the messiah" is the polar opposite of "the antichrist". you claim that the dajjal is the system, and with shia beliefs you share this opinion. however. how did mirza ghulam fight/ defeat this system?

- another proof of his being the awaited one, is his so- called "prophecies". unfortunately, the evidence (and there is an overwhelming majority of it) points to his prophecies being wrong. as for the issue of the eclipse, its no great leap to predict an eclipse, especially since the greeks and egyptians and even muslims did it for thousands of years.

[raven200]

islamvslizards;1250790]brother this is my problem.

the problem with that is as follows. please answer them individually.

- the majority of the signs of the reappearance/ appearance of the awaited one have simply not occured. mirza ghulam circumnavigated these by claiming those prophecies are false and the only real ones are the ones that seem to relate to him.

Can you tell me of which signs you are waiting for which have not as yet taken place?

I have explained a number of signs other then that of the eclipse, I've discussed the dajjal and it's coming as well.

I've informed you of the hadith which states that the Massih was to come at the beginning of the fourteenth century (Islamic CALENDAR), which has already passed.

I have covered a number of signs, if there are signs that I am unaware of please let me know about them?

- you claim he came as a reformer, but he did not reform even a *single* fundamental pillar of islam. not one. think about how much difference there is in prayers alone, or the opening time for the fast, or historical events such as saqifa, ghadir, kisa, tayr, the event of brotherhood and countless others. he remained silent about all these crucial - who knows how many hundreds and thousands have DIED over these topics - issues, and instead focused on one tiny aspect of the faith i.e. whether jesus is alive or not, which isnt even a blip on the radar when it comes to importance in islam.

Let me ask you something.

Is the Holy Quran not a complete and perfect book?

Do the pillers of Islam explained to us by the Holy Prophet need correcting or changing?

Do the ways fasts are kept need to be changed?

I mean do you not understand the Second Massih like the first massih was not to come and change the religion, but was to come to change the ideology and improve the impoverished behaviour of the muslims. He was to bear a light of truth that would bring the muslims out of a belief of a violent Islam.

Would you not agree that a vast amount of muslims still are under the belief that Jihad is to be carried out by the sword?

In this day and age muslims cannot beat the arguments of the christians as they themselves support them and one of the strongest one being of making a Godhead of Jesus by agreeing to not exactly but of a similar nature that Jesus is still alive in the Sky!

How can a muslim break a cross when he agrees with the people who hold strong the cross and make Jesus into a Godly figure who has superior rights of which are nausbilla greater then the holy Prophet Mohammad (sa)

The massish and Mahdi has not come to change the perfect religion but has come to guide the so called followers to the true way of belief in God, he is to revive the truth and bring Islam out as the perfect and complete religion that it truely is and that it cannot and will never be seen as through the eyes of the hypcrital clerics who falsley lead so many people in lies.

- the very nature of "the messiah" is the polar opposite of "the antichrist". you claim that the dajjal is the system, and with shia beliefs you share this opinion. however. how did mirza ghulam fight/ defeat this system?

The system is one that you cannot win by holding a violent conquest as muslims believe, a fight to the death is not how the massih is to conquer the system but infact it is through prayer and complete submission to God that he has shown that the dajjal will be conquered.

If you know about Gog and Magog you will understand that very much so the two great powers are under the influence of the dajjal, and hadith states it that these two waring powers will wreak havoc on earth and only the true believers who submitted towards God and also the believers that received and accepted the message of the massih will be saved.

Though it will be the power of the fire of these two that will ultimately be the cause of destruction for themselves and for the dajjal as well.

The strongest weapon spirituality offers is that of prayer and that is exactly what Hadhrat Massiah Maud has made clear through what God informed him.

I can tell you know as in one of my previous posts I explained that the time is now not far when these powers begin this great war which will lead to there destruction and ultimately the Victory of true Islam.

- another proof of his being the awaited one, is his so- called "prophecies". unfortunately, the evidence (and there is an overwhelming majority of it) points to his prophecies being wrong. as for the issue of the eclipse, its no great leap to predict an eclipse, especially since the greeks and egyptians and even muslims did it for thousands of years.

It seems to me you have decided to agree with the people who utilise history out of context to try and make it evident that his prophecise were wrong. I have provided you in the past post of a way that he himself has said will show people who want to know the truth of which there heart is unable to or unwanting to accept but he has also stated that God will provide these people with a clear sign of his truth but it will be of not the same benfit as it would have been for them if they had understood and accepted with clear and open minded understanding.

And going back to your last comment regarding the eclipse, you are still yet to give me one name of someone who claimed to be massih and mahdi at the beginning of the 14th century and that this sign appeared for him?

[raven200]

Quote Islamvslizards

- you claim he came as a reformer, but he did not reform even a *single* fundamental pillar of islam. not one. think about how much difference there is in prayers alone, or the opening time for the fast, or historical events such as saqifa, ghadir, kisa, tayr, the event of brotherhood and countless others. he remained silent about all these crucial - who knows how many hundreds and thousands have DIED over these topics - issues, and instead focused on one tiny aspect of the faith i.e. whether jesus is alive or not, which isnt even a blip on the radar when it comes to importance in islam.

You have a good point here that these areas so small but which causes so much bloodshed today how was the massih and mahdi to resolve this.

Well this is exactly one of the main areas that he did and has resolved.

Say that the massih you await does come down from the Sky and states this way is the correct way of practicing, would you not agree and follow him.

Well this is exactly what his coming has done he has clearly outlined the methodology of practicing Islam of, which the Holy Prophet Mohammad (sa) outlined as the best way.

it is under a united front that the correct teachings can be agreed upon, and when a man proclaims and does show the correct teaching yet still people disbelieve.

But the ones who do beleive do not argue about these petty things as where you hold your arms in prayer and what you should pray on as the Massih and mahdi has guided on this and they follow all united.

That is what Ahmadies do, we are all united and do not need to argue about how namaz or prayer or hadith should be looked at because we belive that the promised massih and mahdi has come and cleared up these areas for us.

We are the only one muslim jamaat that are united under khilafat as it was intially under the Holy Prophet Mohammad (sa)

We are currently by the grace of Allah with our fifth Khalifa who spritually guides the whole jamaat.

his word in relation to working forward as a jamaat is final and we move forward with him united.

The humblness of our system is so great that every single Ahmadi has access to him and can have a seating with him to discuss matters.

Millions follow him by the grace of Allah and by the blessing of the Holy Prophet mohammad (sa) and by the blessings of the Massih and Mahdi who left us with this gift so that Islam once again one day will be elite via Allah's will.

No other muslim community can say that they are all united under one khalifa as they never will. As God has already informed us that the followers of the clerics will be more intrested in fighting and killing each other rather then follow the truth.

So by the Grace of Allah the Khilafat we have itself is a sign of the truth of the Hadhrat Massiah Maud.

Faith Inspiring Love for Khilafat - YouTube

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[islamvslizards]

Can you tell me of which signs you are waiting for which have not as yet taken place?

I have explained a number of signs other then that of the eclipse, I've discussed the dajjal and it's coming as well.

I've informed you of the hadith which states that the Massih was to come at the beginning of the fourteenth century (Islamic CALENDAR), which has already passed.

I have covered a number of signs, if there are signs that I am unaware of please let me know about them?


my god brother are you serious?

here are SOME



The Sufyani
will come out in revolt; the Hasanid will be killed; the Abbasids will
dispute over worldly kingdom; there will be an eclipse of the sun in
the middle of the month of Ramadan; there will be an eclipse of the
moon at the end of that month in contrast to ordinary happenings;
the land will be swallowed up at al-Bayda'; it will be swallowed in the
east-it will be swallowed up in the west; the sun will stay still from the
time of its decline to the middle of the time for the afternoon prayer; it
will rise from the west; a pure soul (nafs zakiyya) will be killed in the
outskirts of Kufa with seventy righteous men; a Hashimite will be
slaughtered between the corner (of the Ka'ba) and the station of
Abraham); the wall of the mosque of Kufa will be destroyed; black
standards will advance from Khurasan; al-Yamani will come out in
revolt; al-Maghribi will appear in Egypt and take possession of it
from Syria; the Turk will occupy the region of al-Jazira; the
Byzantines will occupy Ramla; the star will appear in the east giving
light just like the moon gives light; then (the new moon) will bend
until its two tips almost meet; a colour will appear in the sky and
spread to its horizons; a fire will appear for a long time in the east
remaining in the air for three or seven days; the Arabs will throw off
the reins and take possession of their land, throwing out the foreign
authority; the people of Egypt will kill their ruler and destroy Syria;
and three standards will dispute over it (Syria); the standards of Qays
and the Arabs will come among the people of Egypt; the standards of
Kinda (will go) to Khurasan; horses will come from the west until
they are stabled in al-Hira; the black standards will advance towards
them from the east; the Euphrates will flood so that the water comes
into the alleys of Kufa; sixty liars will come forward, all of them
claiming prophethood, and twelve will come forward from the family
of Abu Talib, all of them claiming the Imamate; a man of important
rank of the supporters of the 'Abbasids will be burnt between Jalula'
and Khaniqin; the bridge next to Karkh in the city of Baghdad will be
established; a black wind will raise it at the beginning of the day and
then an earthquake will occur so that much of it will be swallowed up;
fear will cover the people of Iraq and Baghdad; swift death (will
occur) there and there will be a loss of property, lives and harvests;
locusts will appear at their usual times and at times not usual so that
they attack agricultural land and crops and there will be little harvest
for what the people planted; two kinds of foreigners will dispute and
much blood will be shed in their quarrel; slaves will rebel against
obedience to their masters and kill their masters (mawali); a group of
heretics (ahl al-bida) will be transformed until they become monkeys
and pigs; slaves will conquer the land of their masters; a cry (will
come) from the sky (in such a way) that all the people will hear it in
their own languages; a face and a chest will appear in the sky before
the people in the centre of the sun; the dead will arise from their
graves so that they will return to the world and they will recognize one
another and visit one another; that will come to an end with twenty-
four continous rainstorms and the land will be revived by them after
being dead and it will recognize its blessings; after that every disease
will be taken away from those of the Shia of the Mahdi, peace be on
him, who believe in the truth; at that time they will know of his
appearance in Mecca and they will go to him to support him.

(These signs) are as the reports have mentioned. Among the total of
these events are some which are bound (to happen) and other which
are conditional. God knows best what will take place. We have only
mentioned them on the basis of what is recounted in basic sources of
tradition (usul) because of their inclusion in traditions which have
been handed down. From God we seek help and Him do we ask for
success.

the rest can be seen here (http://www.al-islam.org/masoom/bios/12thimam.html)

as you can no doubt see. mirza ghulam latched on to ONE prophecy - the eclipse - and completely ignored the rest, all of which have EXACTLY the same validity of reliability in terms of sanad/matn/ilm ar rijal as the prophecy of the eclipse. if he accepts the hadith about the eclipse to be true, then he MUST accept the rest, as they are all part of the same package.

yet he did not.

[islamvslizards]

I've informed you of the hadith which states that the Massih was to come at the beginning of the fourteenth century (Islamic CALENDAR), which has already passed.

brother the current hijri year is 1430, therfore by your argument mirza ghulam should have been born in/ around 1979. this is no proof of him being messiah.

[islamvslizards]

Let me ask you something.

Is the Holy Quran not a complete and perfect book?

brother please show me the ayats which explain, in perfect detail, exactly how to read the 5 prayers, how many rakats and what to read.

this will answer your question.


Do the pillers of Islam explained to us by the Holy Prophet need correcting or changing?

Do the ways fasts are kept need to be changed?

let me give you one, tiny, example of what people are doing wrong.

the quran states, for ablution (wudhoo):

[5.6] O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.

the quran specifically states - WIPE your feet. yet most muslims WASH their feet (i.e. hold their feet under the tap). by doing this they are going against words of the quran!

so, how did mirza ghulam instruct his followers to perform ablution? was it according to the quran, or (again) just blindly following what sunni madhab instructed?

[islamvslizards]

I mean do you not understand the Second Massih like the first massih was not to come and change the religion, but was to come to change the ideology and improve the impoverished behaviour of the muslims. He was to bear a light of truth that would bring the muslims out of a belief of a violent Islam.

Would you not agree that a vast amount of muslims still are under the belief that Jihad is to be carried out by the sword?


well in that case would you agree that sunnis such as dr tahir ul qadri, who have dedicated their lives to peaceful coexistance, and the martyr baqir al sadr, who did likewise, are also following the same spiritual goal, and messiahs in the same sense?

[islamvslizards]

And going back to your last comment regarding the eclipse, you are still yet to give me one name of someone who claimed to be massih and mahdi at the beginning of the 14th century and that this sign appeared for him?

why would i claim anything when i dont believe the majority of signs have been completed? the eclipse was one sign in a series of many.

[islamvslizards]

Well this is exactly one of the main areas that he did and has resolved.


Well this is exactly what his coming has done he has clearly outlined the methodology of practicing Islam of, which the Holy Prophet Mohammad (sa) outlined as the best way.

oh really? so he claims that the sunni way is the "best" way?

so then why do sunnis hate him?


it is under a united front that the correct teachings can be agreed upon, and when a man proclaims and does show the correct teaching yet still people disbelieve.

what teachings would they be brother? he didnt even teach a single thing as far as you have explained, apart from (1) jesus is dead and (2) he is the mahdi


But the ones who do beleive do not argue about these petty things as where you hold your arms in prayer and what you should pray on as the Massih and mahdi has guided on this and they follow all united.

i would say the debacle of saqifa was the number 1 most important event in islams history after the death of the prophet.

what, then, did mirza ghulam say about saqifa? please provide me with a direct quote. i want to see. no, i DEMAND to see his views on saqifa.

more later. i insist that you tell me what he said about saqifa.

[raven200]

brother the current hijri year is 1430, therfore by your argument mirza ghulam should have been born in/ around 1979. this is no proof of him being messiah.

Please look at the following quote regarding the timeline of the 14th Century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century_AH

We are now covering the 15th century brother not 14th.

Centuries are always mentioned in relation to the completion of the 100 years of that century.

E.G. We are now in the 21st century in relation to western calendar but the year is 2000.

And in the 1900 in the beginning of movies you would have noticed they all started with 20th century.

I hope you understand.

[raven200]

I'll cover al you points regarding saqifa as well, don't worry.

You can demand it's not a problem.

Though you keep saying that sunni's are wrong well if something agrees with holy prophets sunnat then it is not wrong.

I will cover shia's beliefs as well with you to get a better understanding of Shia view but from what i know it goes to another direction which contradicts a lot of Islam.

I know you won't like what I say but we can discuss it.

[islamvslizards]

Please look at the following quote regarding the timeline of the 14th Century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century_AH

We are now covering the 15th century brother not 14th.


brother you do realise that the prophecy for the eclipse is a shia one, and the prophecy for the messiah being "born" in the 14th century is a sunni one, dont you?

so which set of prophecies do you follow? you cant follow both since they are quite obviously mutually exclusive. one set says hes already born the other says he is yet to be born. you cant have it both ways.

[raven200]

brother you do realise that the prophecy for the eclipse is a shia one, and the prophecy for the messiah being "born" in the 14th century is a sunni one, dont you?

so which set of prophecies do you follow? you cant follow both since they are quite obviously mutually exclusive. one set says hes already born the other says he is yet to be born. you cant have it both ways.

I have to say you worry my emmensily when you state that one is shia and one is sunni and which one to believe.

Hadith as you very much so are aware are the saying of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (sa).

As long as they do not contradict the Holy Quran they can be validated as authentic.

Now both of these hadith do not contradict the Quran, the eclipse is also mentioned in the Holy Quran.

He asks: When will be the day of Resurrection? When the eye is dazzled, And the moon is eclipsed, And the sun and the moon are brought together, On that day man will say, whither to escape? (Ch. 75: vs.7-11)

Also in relation to the timing of the coming at the beginning of the 14th Century:

As foretold in this tradition of the Holy Prophet, Islam began to decline after the first three centuries of uninterrupted conquests and growing prosperity, till it suffered a very serious check in about 271 A.H. when its graded decline and decay continued till it reached its nadir in the next one thousand years that the reference has been made in the Quranic verse:

"Then shall it go up to Him in a day the duration of which is a thousand years." (32:6)

So brother we Ahmadiyy don't consider it being a shia hadith or Sunni hadith.

We beleive hadith to be sayings of the Holy Prophet (sa) and they are considered authentic if they do not as I have mentioned contradict the Holy Quran.

Your method of debate is consistant with how muslims were prophecised to quiblle over things that would bring and maintain a barrier between them until the Massih and Mahdi comes and it will be through him and his followers that faith in Islam will once again unite.

By you constantly looking to dissprove who's way of praying is right and who's is wrong will inevitably always keep muslims fighting.

Islam is the Holy Quran and what they Holy Prophet taught us, being his sunnat.

If one cannot maintain these basics then what is the point of then pin pointing out minute debates of methods of praying.

When the truth is that Allah wants you to pray to him and little things like using a matt and not using a matt to pray on makes no big difference as long as your soul is seeking purity and truth.

Also one does not state that he is yet still to be born as I have explained to you that the 14th Century has passed which runs from 1300 to 1399.

1400 onwards is 15th Century.

[raven200]

oh really? so he claims that the sunni way is the "best" way?

so then why do sunnis hate him?



what teachings would they be brother? he didnt even teach a single thing as far as you have explained, apart from (1) jesus is dead and (2) he is the mahdi



i would say the debacle of saqifa was the number 1 most important event in islams history after the death of the prophet.

what, then, did mirza ghulam say about saqifa? please provide me with a direct quote. i want to see. no, i DEMAND to see his views on saqifa.

more later. i insist that you tell me what he said about saqifa.

Ok brother you want to touch upon the debate relating to what happened at saqifah and how hadhrat Abu Bakr became Khalifa in relation to what you believe that Hadhrat Ali should have been made khalifa.

Well firstly I shall start by asking you a question.

Do you believe hadhrat Abu Bakr to be the first khalifa?

below I am going to paste a quote from a book, written by a shia scholar Salman Al Farsi;

According to Shi'a narrations from Salman Al-Farsi, it is said that Satan himself swore allegiance to Abu Bakr while at Saqifah.

So the continuation of Islam according to Shia's after the Holy Prophet Mohammad (sa) was not guided by God but rather by the devil?

I would first like to know a bit more about your view point on this area as I take khilafat to be established by Allah as Allah guides the selection of the right person for the time to be khalifa.

I can say this because hadhrat massiah mauds jamaat is blessed with khilafat and we have also seen the difficulties of who is selected and how this selection takes place.

No man can ask for khilafat himself, if a man expects to be made khalifa then he needs to search his soul further as he cannot ordain it upon himself to take a seat that is ordained by Allah.

And I can confidently say that it was not Hadhrat Ali who wanted to be khalifa but a few muslims who suggested so.

Please let me know about your views on this.

In relation to Ahmadies view point on this, we agree with the view that the holy Prophet (sa) was not declaring hadhrat Ali as Khalifa at Ghadir Khumm.

He was pointing out to the fact of how the first sahabas that accepted him had a very high position in the view of Allah.

If he wanted to he could have clearly declared Ali to be his successor, why would he leave such a big confusion amongst muslims, which apparently it has become so because Shias insist that he was to be khalifa because of that speech.

Though the Holy Prophet (sa) did not say so, he clearly pointed out the position of the first sahabas and also on top of that on many occasions he had just as much given praise to the other sahbas as well.

So the Holy prophet expected the people to select the khalifa as was the method to hold a shura and elect the khalifa.

Have a read of the following link in relation to history of Shia's regarding there behaviour and the origins:

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/category/articles/history

[raven200]

Including link below to a forum dedicated to answering questions relating to Ahmadi muslims beliefs:

http://www.ahmadiyyaislam.com/
There is a lot of informative information in this link.

[waymarker]

My First Year As A Muslim
An open letter from Jeremiah D. McAuliffe...
-----------------------------------------------

Whoa Jerry mate, that'd be better entitled- "My First Year As A Jesus-Rejecter".
No offence, but you'd therefore bore the krap out of me, so on yer bike..:)