Witches, Shaman, Occultists

[danceswithbunnies]

This thread is for us to discuss these views if you are game, and to bring occult out of the darkness of superstition..

A very wise person once pointed out to me that the occult is a tool, and like most tools it can be used for good and for life, or it can be twisted to serve evil and death...but then that is true of religion as well.


To get the ball started here is a non gardenerian witchcraft tradition called Feri

http://www.feritradition.org/

Initiation into hermetics by Bardon:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/301820/Initiation-into-Hermetics-by-Franz-Bardon

There is also a very excellent resource called Veritas which has information on PSI..(chock full of info)
I won't post the link because it would probably be bad protocol, but you can find it by typing "PSI Veritas" into google.

[edelweiss pirate]

Ok let's get the ball rolling...

Tell us about YOUR initiation....

[danceswithbunnies]

Ok let's get the ball rolling...

Tell us about YOUR initiation....

I don't do initiations..i am a wild also known as natural...born that way.
Are you an occultist?

[edelweiss pirate]

I don't do initiations..i am a wild also known as natural...born that way.
Are you an occultist?

No because that is a label which has negative connotations. I believe that the potential of the human soul are limitless and I try to explore magical possibilities which bring balance and harmony to the world. I ask you if you have been initiated because you seem to be 'pushing' the occult agenda of witches, shamans masons and other weird bodies.

I have been initiated several times but the effect 'woke me up' to the reality of the group I would be joining, the loss of free will and privacy which is the price of belonging to occult groups is not worth paying in my view.

So I do my own thing. I like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed but there are hardly any famous occultists I like because they all seem tarnished with materialism and self serving.

On the black and white checkerboard of life I make sure I'm always standing in the white-square. I don't accept 'duality' and the necessity of the dark force because my natural home is not in this universe. I long to return to the light.

[danceswithbunnies]

No because that is a label which has negative connotations. I believe that the potential of the human soul are limitless and I try to explore magical possibilities which bring balance and harmony to the world. I ask you if you have been initiated because you seem to be 'pushing' the occult agenda of witches, shamans masons and other weird bodies.

I have been initiated several times but the effect 'woke me up' to the reality of the group I would be joining, the loss of free will and privacy which is the price of belonging to occult groups is not worth paying in my view.

So I do my own thing. I like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed but there are hardly any famous occultists I like because they all seem tarnished with materialism and self serving.

On the black and white checkerboard of life I make sure I'm always standing in the white-square. I don't accept 'duality' and the necessity of the dark force because my natural home is not in this universe. I long to return to the light.


Okay...fair enough. I will be up front with you too.I am not pushing any agenda, when i say that the "devil could be the real god" it is only because i can see how the PTB could have twisted the truth so badly that up is down, black is white..etc
I am still figuring some things out...probably never have all the answers.


I am phobic about joining anything, any kind of group. I don't know why, but i mean i get VERY nervous. Doesn't matter whether it is church of coven i don't join groups.

When i said the darkness, i was not referring to evil...i know what evil is, i was raised by evil people that used to like to play mind games. I was referring to parts of yourself that you have been forced to deny..like buried fear, creativity whatever.

The reason i have an interest in the occult, is because i do have talents showing up...and i want to know how to train them to protect and help myself and others. I think that you can pick and choose, and do not have to worship anything in the process...so i am doing my own thing too...and yes i want to explore the magical possibilities.

a

[miracles]

No because that is a label which has negative connotations. I believe that the potential of the human soul are limitless and I try to explore magical possibilities which bring balance and harmony to the world. I ask you if you have been initiated because you seem to be 'pushing' the occult agenda of witches, shamans masons and other weird bodies.

I have been initiated several times but the effect 'woke me up' to the reality of the group I would be joining, the loss of free will and privacy which is the price of belonging to occult groups is not worth paying in my view.

So I do my own thing. I like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed but there are hardly any famous occultists I like because they all seem tarnished with materialism and self serving.

On the black and white checkerboard of life I make sure I'm always standing in the white-square. I don't accept 'duality' and the necessity of the dark force because my natural home is not in this universe. I long to return to the light.

A wilde or a natural what exactly? Witch?

There are painless ways to murder people and there are tortureous ways to murder people. Its still murder. There is no nice witchcraft.

[major seven]

Okay...fair enough. I will be up front with you too.I am not pushing any agenda, when i say that the "devil could be the real god" it is only because i can see how the PTB could have twisted the truth so badly that up is down, black is white..etc
I am still figuring some things out...probably never have all the answers.


I am phobic about joining anything, any kind of group. I don't know why, but i mean i get VERY nervous. Doesn't matter whether it is church of coven i don't join groups.

When i said the darkness, i was not referring to evil...i know what evil is, i was raised by evil people that used to like to play mind games. I was referring to parts of yourself that you have been forced to deny..like buried fear, creativity whatever.

The reason i have an interest in the occult, is because i do have talents showing up...and i want to know how to train them to protect and help myself and others. I think that you can pick and choose, and do not have to worship anything in the process...so i am doing my own thing too...and yes i want to explore the magical possibilities.

a


Hey Bunny
What do you think about Ouija Boards?

We use to dork around with them now again as teenagers.
They sort of freaked us all out.
Yeah I heard about the sub-concious thing making the marker move and what not, but still, it takes two people to make it move. And I know the other person wasn't moving it either.

I got a friend who is a diehard Baptist that thinks its Satanic and won't even touch it with a yardstick. LOL!

A few years ago my wife and I tried one just for laughs since she never used one before, and we never did get the stupid thing to move.
After all my hype before hand and previous experience, I think she was too freaked out with too much negative energy. LOL!

FM7

[danceswithbunnies]

Hey Bunny
What do you think about Ouija Boards?

We use to dork around with them now again as teenagers.
They sort of freaked us all out.
Yeah I heard about the sub-concious thing making the marker move and what not, but still, it takes two people to make it move. And I know the other person wasn't moving it either.

I got a friend who is a diehard Baptist that thinks its Satanic and won't even touch it with a yardstick. LOL!

A few years ago my wife and I tried one just for laughs since she never used one before, and we never did get the stupid thing to move.
After all my hype before hand and previous experience, I think she was too freaked out with too much negative energy. LOL!

FM7

Well i agree with your baptist friend about the yarstick.

No man, i wouldn't touch those..i have heard if you do the appropriate banishings they are okay, but for myself i still wouldn't touch them.
the other one that makes me nervous is pendulums.

Channeling....definitely not, won't touch that either.
Or anything that lets another entity take over your body like a god form (invocation) or what not...NO.
Won't touch that.

[danceswithbunnies]

A wilde or a natural what exactly? Witch?

There are painless ways to murder people and there are tortureous ways to murder people. Its still murder. There is no nice witchcraft.

Murder people? HUH?

What are you talking about?

I am talking about gifts handed down through family lines...my grandmother had them and guess what?
She had a very close relationship to Christ..

[major seven]

Well i agree with your baptist friend about the yarstick.

No man, i wouldn't touch those..i have heard if you do the appropriate banishings they are okay, but for myself i still wouldn't touch them.
the other one that makes me nervous is pendulums.

Channeling....definitely not, won't touch that either.
Or anything that lets another entity take over your body like a god form (invocation) or what not...NO.
Won't touch that.


Yeah! I think the science guys are grasping at straws with their theories on why that pointer thingy moves.
Whats really freaky is when it spells out whole words and names.
The freakiest session we did as kids was asking it what our Indian Spirit names were. It gave everybody an appropriate Indian sounding name, like
Dances With Bunnies. :D
Just kidding, that wasn't one, but they were all pretty cool. Freaky actually.

So whats up with pendulums?
I agree they can be a tad nerve wracking if your layed out under a very large and sharp one swinging back and forth over your body ala Edgar Allen Poe.
Otherwise, not sure what else is creepy about them.
Check this out! Its right up your alley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_(mathematics))

So what sort of talents do you see yourself developing?
I hope its not that one where you can turn your head 360 degrees. :D
Anything Harry Potter can do? :)
I'm sick of the gas prices. I could use one them flying broom sticks.

FM7

[amethyst]

Okay...fair enough. I will be up front with you too.I am not pushing any agenda, when i say that the "devil could be the real god" it is only because i can see how the PTB could have twisted the truth so badly that up is down, black is white..etc
I am still figuring some things out...probably never have all the answers.


I am phobic about joining anything, any kind of group. I don't know why, but i mean i get VERY nervous. Doesn't matter whether it is church of coven i don't join groups.

When i said the darkness, i was not referring to evil...i know what evil is, i was raised by evil people that used to like to play mind games. I was referring to parts of yourself that you have been forced to deny..like buried fear, creativity whatever.

The reason i have an interest in the occult, is because i do have talents showing up...and i want to know how to train them to protect and help myself and others. I think that you can pick and choose, and do not have to worship anything in the process...so i am doing my own thing too...and yes i want to explore the magical possibilities.

a

The devil is tptb's "god'...they just don't realize it....all that mind control, ritual and stuff they are subjected to, ya know?

I am phobic about joining anything, any kind of group. I don't know why, but i mean i get VERY nervous. Doesn't matter whether it is church of coven i don't join groups.

That's actually a good thing about not joining.....there's not a lot of "truth' in the illusionary world.....it's all a masquerade, as the song goes...

But if you mess with the occult, you are inviting "guests" to your dinner party, that don't have your best interests at heart. They might spoil the meal.

[the om]

You know, its actually kind of incredible... I was 'initiated' in Shamanism more than two years ago, and only recently (as in the past few weeks) have I started developing (or noticing) my psychic abilities.

Any other Shamans out there?

And Miracles, the Occult (which is again, just a label that actually means nothing more than 'hidden', because the knowledge had to be hidden due to a fear of persecution, mainly by the christian church), as someone on this thread has already aptly said, is nothing more than a tool. You can use a hammer to build a house (thus promoting life), but you could use that same hammer to bash someone's head in (ending life). Its about how you use the hammer, because, on its own, it can be neither good nor bad.

[miracles]

Hey Bunny
What do you think about Ouija Boards?

We use to dork around with them now again as teenagers.
They sort of freaked us all out.
Yeah I heard about the sub-concious thing making the marker move and what not, but still, it takes two people to make it move. And I know the other person wasn't moving it either.

I got a friend who is a diehard Baptist that thinks its Satanic and won't even touch it with a yardstick. LOL!

A few years ago my wife and I tried one just for laughs since she never used one before, and we never did get the stupid thing to move.
After all my hype before hand and previous experience, I think she was too freaked out with too much negative energy. LOL!

FM7

That shit is real dude, when I was a kidd my brother and my girl friend mucked about with for a while and a demon tried to enter my brother, I think one did, he went ape shit. Yelling get out of me "get out of me get out of me", plus we got the usual demonic bullshit about our last lives spelt out to us on the board. We werent making it up.

I may have to retract ty earlier comment that you are one of a few with any gumption around this place if you maintain that this stuff is a joke old buddy. Im not sure if it works with two people very well. Stay away from it.

l

[miracles]

Murder people? HUH?

What are you talking about?

I am talking about gifts handed down through family lines...my grandmother had them and guess what?
She had a very close relationship to Christ..

Your an academic, you get the point. Oh yeah what "gifts"? God doesnt have grandchildren, maybe satan does, the sins of the fathers to the fourth generation handed down, ring any bells? And satan was rather fond of Christ, he offered him a job to rule the world.

[amethyst]

Your an academic, you get the point. Oh yeah what "gifts"? God doesnt have grandchildren, maybe satan does, the sins of the fathers to the fourth generation handed down, ring any bells? And satan was rather fond of Christ, he offered him a job to rule the world.

I agree, the "sins of the fathers" are handed down, but someone can stop the curse if they choose to reject the lies and a lieing system, and embrace the TRUTH.

TRUE light (not the false light) always dispels darkness.

[miracles]

I agree, the "sins of the fathers" are handed down, but someone can stop the curse if they choose to reject the lies and a lieing system, and embrace the TRUTH.

TRUE light (not the false light) always dispels darkness.

I agree.

[major seven]

That shit is real dude, when I was a kidd my brother and my girl friend mucked about with for a while and a demon tried to enter my brother, I think one did, he went ape shit. Yelling get out of me "get out of me get out of me", plus we got the usual demonic bullshit about our last lives spelt out to us on the board. We werent making it up.

I may have to retract ty earlier comment that you are one of a few with any gumption around this place if you maintain that this stuff is a joke old buddy. Im not sure if it works with two people very well. Stay away from it.

l


OK! :D

Actually, the joke is on me.
I paid 15 bucks or whatever it was for the stupid thing and it didn't even work.
But really, it all worked out for the best, because I suspected my wife was a brick wall against demon spirits.
Now I know for sure. :)
Its interesting the different experiences people have with those things.
My initial experiences were fun while yours were terrifying.
Maybe it just depends on how good you built your wall, Eh What?
I think I'll start adding a few more bricks to mine.

:D

[miracles]

OK! :D

Actually, the joke is on me.
I paid 15 bucks or whatever it was for the stupid thing and it didn't even work.
But really, it all worked out for the best, because I suspected my wife was a brick wall against demon spirits.
Now I know for sure. :)
Its interesting the different experiences people have with those things.
My initial experiences were fun while yours were terrifying.
Maybe it just depends on how good you built your wall, Eh What?
I think I'll start adding a few more bricks to mine.

:D

Good. Gumption has returned. :D

I wasnt terrified, my girl friend broke down in tears and my brother went ape, I had alreday received Christ by then, but was only 17 and doing dumb teenage stuff. (it dont get dumber than that. The demon told me I was murdered or hung (cant remember) in France in the 18th centuray. Nice.

[armoured_amazon]

A wilde or a natural what exactly? Witch?

There are painless ways to murder people and there are tortureous ways to murder people. Its still murder. There is no nice witchcraft.

Good analogy.

Murder people? HUH?

What are you talking about?

I am talking about gifts handed down through family lines...my grandmother had them and guess what?
She had a very close relationship to Christ..

Our family have the same gifts/abilities/talents. The clue is in CHOICE. Do we choose to use said tools when it is innate in us, or do we choose not to? Choice is everything. One cannot fight an enemy with the enemy's sword and expect to win.

[miracles]

Good analogy.



Our family have the same gifts/abilities/talents. The clue is in CHOICE. Do we choose to use said tools when it is innate in us, or do we choose not to? Choice is everything. One cannot fight an enemy with the enemy's sword and expect to win.

Thanks, you too.

[miracles]

You know, its actually kind of incredible... I was 'initiated' in Shamanism more than two years ago, and only recently (as in the past few weeks) have I started developing (or noticing) my psychic abilities.

Any other Shamans out there?

And Miracles, the Occult (which is again, just a label that actually means nothing more than 'hidden', because the knowledge had to be hidden due to a fear of persecution, mainly by the christian church), as someone on this thread has already aptly said, is nothing more than a tool. You can use a hammer to build a house (thus promoting life), but you could use that same hammer to bash someone's head in (ending life). Its about how you use the hammer, because, on its own, it can be neither good nor bad.

I know what occult means mate. When you dabble in that stuff, it wont be long before the bloke that gave you the hammer caves your head in with it.

Shaman

sha⋅man
(esp. among certain tribal peoples) a person who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.


sham1.something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious imitation; fraud or hoax.2.a person who shams; shammer.3.a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward appearance: a pillow sham.
–adjective 4.pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic façade. 5.designed, made, or used as a sham.
–verb (used with object) 6.to produce an imitation of.7.to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness.
–verb (used without object) 8.to make a false show of something; pretend.

Origin:
1670–80; orig. uncert.http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

Synonyms:
1. pretense. 4. spurious, make-believe, simulated, mock. See false. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=false&db=luna) 6. imitate. 7. feign, fake.

So you see, a shaman is being shamed by satan. You think you are in control, when you are actually being controlled.

[major seven]

Good. Gumption has returned. :D

I wasnt terrified, my girl friend broke down in tears and my brother went ape, I had alreday received Christ by then, but was only 17 and doing dumb teenage stuff. (it dont get dumber than that. The demon told me I was murdered or hung (cant remember) in France in the 18th centuray. Nice.


Thanks Man!
I don't know what I'd do without my "Gumption".
Whats a Gumption? :)

Well there you go. The demons just proved reincarnation.
Lets see, 1700s France?
You might have been one of those Cathars, also known as "The Good People", that the Roman Catholics spent two generations trying to exterminate because you wouldn't call the fucking village priest, or the fucking Pope, "Father".
That'll get you killed in some fasion or another.
Pretty much the same thing as being murdered, Eh What?
And you didn't even have to steal a loaf of bread to keep from starving which would amount to the same thing.
Or then maybe you did.
No telling what kind of a dirt bag you were in the 1700s. :D
The only thing that is really clear here is that you must have pissed off somebody. :)

AH Yes! Good old 17.
Can you imagine being 17 now with the Internet?
Use to be we already knew EveryThing WITHOUT the Internet. LOL!

FM7

[armoured_amazon]

The demons just proved reincarnation.

lol

[danceswithbunnies]

Your an academic, you get the point. Oh yeah what "gifts"? God doesnt have grandchildren, maybe satan does, the sins of the fathers to the fourth generation handed down, ring any bells? And satan was rather fond of Christ, he offered him a job to rule the world.

You don't know what you are talking about

[danceswithbunnies]

Major Seven...that is not the type of pendulum i am talking about..many people use small pendulums to do divination..the point is that something is moving the pendulum and that these things come up through our subconscious.

Most of the major religions leave you wide open to this kind of thing and do not show you how to protect yourself.


But if you mess with the occult, you are inviting "guests" to your dinner party, that don't have your best interests at heart. They might spoil the meal.

That is tacitly untrue...guests will show up whether you invite them or not.
Funny that it is the christians who struggle with the demonic. What they concentrate on comes to them.

I had never dabbled with the occult, was saved at seven, and this thing showed up...a hooded creature with no face. I was spontaneously OBE in my sleep and the thing was attacking me.

[danceswithbunnies]

You know, its actually kind of incredible... I was 'initiated' in Shamanism more than two years ago, and only recently (as in the past few weeks) have I started developing (or noticing) my psychic abilities.

Any other Shamans out there?

And Miracles, the Occult (which is again, just a label that actually means nothing more than 'hidden', because the knowledge had to be hidden due to a fear of persecution, mainly by the christian church), as someone on this thread has already aptly said, is nothing more than a tool. You can use a hammer to build a house (thus promoting life), but you could use that same hammer to bash someone's head in (ending life). Its about how you use the hammer, because, on its own, it can be neither good nor bad.

Thank you...yes i had hoped to get some actual shaman, witches (european shamanism), and occultists on the thread, but mostly get christian opinions about why the occult is dangerous..It is like saying don't use a kitchen knife because you might cut yourself..don't use a car because you might crash.

Most of the christians i have known leave themselves wide open to any kind of attack, and as a result they are the ones plagued by problems with demons..

My husband and i both do shamanic journeying.(husband more than myself)
Those have been some of the most powerful experiences of my life.That and prayer.And it does take time to develop..for myself the trauma from my childhood was blocking natural gifts. That seems to be the case for many people. Have been looking into soul retrieval work. (several people show you how to do this, like Alberto Villoldo)

Have done some of the ceremonial magic like banishing..Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram which calls on the Jewish names of God and the Archangels, seems fairly powerful. You can also cast using your power animals, which can be very powerful too...you can also do it in the imagination by visualization instead of in the physical, which seems to have different effects.

[the om]

I know what occult means mate. When you dabble in that stuff, it wont be long before the bloke that gave you the hammer caves your head in with it.

Shaman

sha⋅man
(esp. among certain tribal peoples) a person who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.


sham1.something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious imitation; fraud or hoax.2.a person who shams; shammer.3.a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward appearance: a pillow sham.
–adjective 4.pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic façade. 5.designed, made, or used as a sham.
–verb (used with object) 6.to produce an imitation of.7.to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness.
–verb (used without object) 8.to make a false show of something; pretend.

Origin:
1670–80; orig. uncert.http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

Synonyms:
1. pretense. 4. spurious, make-believe, simulated, mock. See false. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=false&db=luna) 6. imitate. 7. feign, fake.

So you see, a shaman is being shamed by satan. You think you are in control, when you are actually being controlled.

Ok dude, first off, the person who gave me the hammer helped me install storm windows on my house with it.

Second, you said it yourself: Shamanism can help to heal illness, and tell the future. If you could look me in the eye and tell me that these aren't two incredibly useful traits, well... I dunno. But I don't think you could.

Third, I underlined italicized and bolded the origin of the word 'Sham'. The late 1600's. Doesn't that strike you as a little strange? I mean, the word 'shaman' (in one form or another) has been around for millennia. Then, all of a sudden, in the late 1600's, WHICH, by the way, happens to be when the infamous Witch Trials were taking place, this word pops up, incriminating a practice that has helped people for millennia, but the Christian church seems to have a problem with. Now. If thats not an influence of the Illuminati, well, I really dont know what is...

And also, the spirits I've worked with have all operated in the name of Love, and have taught me to live in Love. Satan does not (CANnot) operate in Love, because by definition, he is the opposite of Love.

[the om]

Dances With Bunnies, it is pretty awesome, isn't it? I was lucky in being 'initiated' at such an early age (I was 16 at the time I think), and it really has changed a lot in my life. My entire outlook on life was changed the moment I walked out of that room...

If you can find someone you trust enough to get the soul retrieval done, its incredible. They say it can take a while till you feel the effects, but I walked home that night and ... at the risk of sounding kinda cheesy, I was a completely new person. I was whole again. It really was incredible...

I've gotta say though, I've stayed away from Ceremonial Magic for my path. Just kinda kept it internal... Dunno why, I just haven't really had much interest in it. I think I'm gonna give it a try though!

Personally, I've just been listening to the wisdom offered by my power animals and guides. I love it and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Peace

[armoured_amazon]

Thank you...yes i had hoped to get some actual shaman, witches (european shamanism), and occultists on the thread, but mostly get christian opinions about why the occult is dangerous..It is like saying don't use a kitchen knife because you might cut yourself..don't use a car because you might crash.

Most of the christians i have known leave themselves wide open to any kind of attack, and as a result they are the ones plagued by problems with demons..

My husband and i both do shamanic journeying.(husband more than myself)
Those have been some of the most powerful experiences of my life.That and prayer.And it does take time to develop..for myself the trauma from my childhood was blocking natural gifts. That seems to be the case for many people. Have been looking into soul retrieval work. (several people show you how to do this, like Alberto Villoldo)

Have done some of the ceremonial magic like banishing..Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram which calls on the Jewish names of God and the Archangels, seems fairly powerful. You can also cast using your power animals, which can be very powerful too...you can also do it in the imagination by visualization instead of in the physical, which seems to have different effects.

Such sweeping generalisations! Okay, I get it. This was just a fapping thread. Carry on.

[danceswithbunnies]

Such sweeping generalisations! Okay, I get it. This was just a fapping thread. Carry on.

Sweeping generalizations IS a sweeping generalization...i have known dozens of christians who have had very serious problems, used to be a fundie christian, so these are people i know personally, and things i have observed personally.

I don't know what "fapping" means..but i would say that i started this thread for people of religions other than the book religions. To discuss things pertaining to them.

[danceswithbunnies]

Dances With Bunnies, it is pretty awesome, isn't it? I was lucky in being 'initiated' at such an early age (I was 16 at the time I think), and it really has changed a lot in my life. My entire outlook on life was changed the moment I walked out of that room...

If you can find someone you trust enough to get the soul retrieval done, its incredible. They say it can take a while till you feel the effects, but I walked home that night and ... at the risk of sounding kinda cheesy, I was a completely new person. I was whole again. It really was incredible...

I've gotta say though, I've stayed away from Ceremonial Magic for my path. Just kinda kept it internal... Dunno why, I just haven't really had much interest in it. I think I'm gonna give it a try though!

Personally, I've just been listening to the wisdom offered by my power animals and guides. I love it and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Peace

Not cheesy at all..you find that still point and feel balanced.
The ceremonial magick made me nervous because it does use the jewish names for god..personally i do not like calling on any godname, but that is me. The banishings (LBRP)does have an effect you can notice though.Even if you aren't going to use it, understanding how it works and what is going on can be good information that you can file away for later use.

I plan to do the soul retreival work myself with my husband..(the book by Alberto Villoldo shows you how to do this). For me at least, the shamanic work seems to be more powerful than the ceremonial type of magic (see Donald Michael Kraig, Modern Magick, he is a jewish guy who says he started delving into what was really going on in his religion...i like his book because he explains things. Useful information. YHVH btw, is just the material universe...the four compass points..YHShVH is the pentagram, four compass points and spirit)

[merlincove]

You know, its actually kind of incredible... I was 'initiated' in Shamanism more than two years ago, and only recently (as in the past few weeks) have I started developing (or noticing) my psychic abilities.

Any other Shamans out there?



Aye.... ***holds hand up and passes across a warm smile***

once upon a time i was quite proud to use the word shaman. Recently tho it has become just another name, something that doesn't describe me at all.

i know some people who profess to be shaman and i feel a great unhappiness in my heart, because it has become a badge of recent, worn by those who seek only more power to their ego. It is such a shame, that noble arts, ancient beyond knowing, are taken as talismans by those who would only serve to gain £ and a name at the sakes of others' freedoms.

i do not call my self a shaman now, i haven't for a long time, a couple of years almost.

The gifts of the shaman are multi fold, i have found, and whereas the gifts for healing are perhaps their best known qualities, a shaman may also comune with nature to a greater degree, talk with the spirits of animal and plant, journey to their kingdom for knowledge, understanding and teaching. The shaman have long traditions of comuning with the crystal people and Star people and have an eye that sees beyond the veil of the illusory real, or at least an eye that sees into another real. Although i heal on occassion, when such is asked of me, i work with the gifts of vission and journey to a much deeper degree and enjoy the freedoms and understanding that such a gift brings.

We hold regular drumming journey sessions, and i feel that the participants / journeyrs recieve invaluable self and personal healing from such.

Most healers have the ability to attend to past life work, energy retrieval, energy / entity removal, chord cutting, re-balancing, inner child etc. A few healers are gifted with vissionary blessings and the ability to journey, and i think that it is these aspects that give a healer a shamanic edge.

And of course, shaman have the ability to walk into darker realms where many healers would fear to tread, or deal with / detach 'entities' that many would be affraid to. And the W'win shaman even walk within those dark realms (for want of a better term to describe the dualistic concepts of light and dark) in order to better defeat their negative energy in the world of men.

i was told by my teacher, some years ago, that shaman means, quite literally, he who sees into dark places, and that meaning resonates with what a shaman is and what he / she does, imo.

Some of the most gifted shaman i know are females, btw...

Wan-an-nee-che told me a few years ago when i was working with him on his book, that in his culture there is no such thing as a shaman, that it is a made up word to discribe some one who 'white men' do not understand.

Are the Toltec shaman? Is Toltec another word for shaman? The Toltec are teachers, much of their teaching resonates with me, not all but much, and i feel that the Toltec traditions are much more shamanic than any other tradition.

we were looking at Toltec tradition about three r four years ago, specificaly the four agreements, and the concept of masks came up in that work. One of the group suggested that being a shaman was a mask, and i kinda dissagreed because i didn't think it was. i felt, and still do feel to a degree, that being shaman is a kinda way of life, something you are and not simply something that you do. I have come to terms with the conclussion over the last few years that the word 'shaman' is a kinda mask, worn by some who profess a secret knowledge and yet know little about the walk of that knowledge. This is why i don't use the name shaman, as i now see the name as a mask. i also feel that the name has been diluted somewhat by those who wear the mask for self gratification in the name of mysticism. There is a respect for the name and unfortunately some take the name in order to gain the respect and little else.

i am me, i have a certain ability, and i have a love and a respect for that ability and the gifts it affords, some may choose to call me a shaman, i don't.

Being a shaman isn't about having a title, it is, in my opinion, about having an ability to help others.

i find it interesting that you say that you were 'initiated' into shamanism, the om, and that you have only felt an embrace of your gifts recently. Do you see the 'initiation' as a Self Empowerment tool, the om? Allowing you the freedom to be able to embrace your true nature? i see the reiki attunement as a Self Empowerment tool, empowering people to use the gifts they already have within them, and i wonder if you feel the same. That 'shamanism' was always within you, deep in your being, and that the initiation allowed those gifts to come to the surface?

Peace be with you my friend :D

lee

[tannah]

I had a pretty powerful dream about a Shaman, some four years ago.

There was a big field, and in the centre was a big fire, with a man sat cross legged protecting it. It was dark. I was at the edge of the field, and I turned to look behind me. There were many people talking amongst themselves, all uttering that there was going to come a terrible pack of ugly faced spirits and energy from beyond the pitch black on the other side of the field. The feeling was that this was the whole human race collected on the edge of the field.

A voice spoke and said "stay close to the Shaman around the fire, and the spirits won't harm you". So we all placed ourselves around the fire and the Shaman. Suddenely from the pitch black started coming many distorted faces and shrieking spirits. None of them were able to get near the fire,and we were safe.

This dream means a lot to me. It suggests universal salvation. The fire being in the centre of the field reminds me of non-duality. The shaman I see as Christ, and it is at our centre that we are protected from illusion.

[the om]

Merlincove, I can understand what you're saying. Really, I do. But I've found that the one's who you are referring to aren't Shamans. Like you said, they are the one's who use the label as a means of empowering their ego. In reality though, they have no idea what it really is, what it means to be a Shaman, and when you talk to them about it they either throw it in your face or ridicule you for it. I've seen it, and had it happen to me. But you know what? It doesn't bother me. My teacher used to tell me that there is a lot of healing to be done on this planet, and I think thats just one more thing we need to heal.

And also, I said I was 'initiated' into Shamanism. I made sure I put that word in these things: ' ' (can't think of what they're called... :o ). I used them because that was the first time I journeyed. But I guess a lot of the stuff in my life was leading up to it, and that was just the first time it all came together.

Peace

[amethyst]

Major Seven...that is not the type of pendulum i am talking about..many people use small pendulums to do divination..the point is that something is moving the pendulum and that these things come up through our subconscious.

Most of the major religions leave you wide open to this kind of thing and do not show you how to protect yourself.



That is tacitly untrue...guests will show up whether you invite them or not.
Funny that it is the christians who struggle with the demonic. What they concentrate on comes to them.

I had never dabbled with the occult, was saved at seven, and this thing showed up...a hooded creature with no face. I was spontaneously OBE in my sleep and the thing was attacking me.

I believe your story.

But you misunderstand.

When you dabble in the spirit realm, the "unseen', you do (unknowingly and for some, knowingly) invite entities....that is what I meant.

But yes, they also show up uninvited. That is why you need a holy forcefield as it were, around you, and the knowledge/awareness of it. A hedge of protection. If you don't know the holy one, you are not going to be protected....just that you "think" you are.

With the occult, you may be temporarily protected, just to hook you in.

The devil's "protection" comes with a price tag....always. But what do you do then, when the piper comes calling? You have to pay up.

Not so with God. His protection is free because He wants His children to be free....always.

[the om]

I had a pretty powerful dream about a Shaman, some four years ago.

There was a big field, and in the centre was a big fire, with a man sat cross legged protecting it. It was dark. I was at the edge of the field, and I turned to look behind me. There were many people talking amongst themselves, all uttering that there was going to come a terrible pack of ugly faced spirits and energy from beyond the pitch black on the other side of the field. The feeling was that this was the whole human race collected on the edge of the field.

A voice spoke and said "stay close to the Shaman around the fire, and the spirits won't harm you". So we all placed ourselves around the fire and the Shaman. Suddenely from the pitch black started coming many distorted faces and shrieking spirits. None of them were able to get near the fire,and we were safe.

This dream means a lot to me. It suggests universal salvation. The fire being in the centre of the field reminds me of non-duality. The shaman I see as Christ, and it is at our centre that we are protected from illusion.

Awesome dream! Sounds almost like it was more of an Astral experience! A lot of power in it. It kinda reaffirms the old metaphor: you can bring a candle into a dark room and it will light it up, but you can't bring darkness into a light room to darken it

[amethyst]

That is tacitly untrue...guests will show up whether you invite them or not.
Funny that it is the christians who struggle with the demonic. What they concentrate on comes to them.

I had never dabbled with the occult, was saved at seven, and this thing showed up...a hooded creature with no face. I was spontaneously OBE in my sleep and the thing was attacking me.

Probably why they showed up is because your family was involved with the occult in the first place. You may not have invited it, but generational families bring these unwanted things upon themselves, when they sold out to Satan years ago....in exchange for knowledge and power.

They made a pact, and the devil doesn't take that lightly.

[danceswithbunnies]

The name is just a name, it is the doing that is important...the way we are using it here is just in reference to tools you can use which is why i put "witches, shaman, and occultists"..

I am wondering if i can address a concern here, maybe you all can answer.
Several posters have said (and they may be correct ) that 70% of the people on earth have the spirit of the earth itself, like the animals and will merge with this Source after they die..But there are 30% who have spirit...the question here is that..is being able to speak with nature and the animals indicative of losing your spirit, or if you do this will you lose it?
I think this may be incorrect for me (at least from my experience) because i have experienced animals as having spirits...and they do reincarnate.



there is a guy Tannah who writes about Jesus as a shaman, "Reiki Shamanism" by Jim Pathfinder Ewing..it is a little to 'lightworker' for my taste, but to each his own.

[danceswithbunnies]

I believe your story.

But you misunderstand.

When you dabble in the spirit realm, the "unseen', you do (unknowingly and for some, knowingly) invite entities....that is what I meant.

But yes, they also show up uninvited. That is why you need a holy forcefield as it were, around you, and the knowledge/awareness of it. A hedge of protection. If you don't know the holy one, you are not going to be protected....just that you "think" you are.

With the occult, you may be temporarily protected, just to hook you in.

The devil's "protection" comes with a price tag....always. But what do you do then, when the piper comes calling? You have to pay up.

Not so with God. His protection is free because He wants His children to be free....always.

I dunno about that...the christians i personally know are some of the most tormented and angry people in my circle of aquaintances..constant bad luck and catastrophe..
So this hedge of protection doesn't seem to be working for them, in fact this free price tag just shuts them off from protection and allows "the devil" to beat the snot out of them.

[merlincove]

I had a pretty powerful dream about a Shaman, some four years ago.

There was a big field, and in the centre was a big fire, with a man sat cross legged protecting it. It was dark. I was at the edge of the field, and I turned to look behind me. There were many people talking amongst themselves, all uttering that there was going to come a terrible pack of ugly faced spirits and energy from beyond the pitch black on the other side of the field. The feeling was that this was the whole human race collected on the edge of the field.

A voice spoke and said "stay close to the Shaman around the fire, and the spirits won't harm you". So we all placed ourselves around the fire and the Shaman. Suddenely from the pitch black started coming many distorted faces and shrieking spirits. None of them were able to get near the fire,and we were safe.

This dream means a lot to me. It suggests universal salvation. The fire being in the centre of the field reminds me of non-duality. The shaman I see as Christ, and it is at our centre that we are protected from illusion.

What a beautiful post, really made me smile. And reminded me of a time i journeyed last year, where i was told to keep my candle burning, 'see what happens when you light a candle, the darkness can not get into the light, the light pushes the darkness away - do not allow anyone to tempt you to extinguish your flame...'

A beautiful metaphor that you were given.

Awesome dream! Sounds almost like it was more of an Astral experience! A lot of power in it. It kinda reaffirms the old metaphor: you can bring a candle into a dark room and it will light it up, but you can't bring darkness into a light room to darken it

+1 :-)

[the om]

I am wondering if i can address a concern here, maybe you all can answer.
Several posters have said (and they may be correct ) that 70% of the people on earth have the spirit of the earth itself, like the animals and will merge with this Source after they die..But there are 30% who have spirit...the question here is that..is being able to speak with nature and the animals indicative of losing your spirit, or if you do this will you lose it.
I think this may be incorrect for me (at least from my experience) because i have experienced that animals having spirits...and they do reincarnate.



The way I see it, the animals haven't been poisoned with the shit we have been (sure, they've been affected by mercury and such, which is horrible, but I think its safe to say we've been poisoned a little more...), like fluoride, aspartame, and, like many animals, mercury. Now, a lot of people have speculated as to the nature of these poisons, and the general consensus seems to be that they are used to dumb down our third eye. So, I guess if you are able to communicate with animals through psychic experience, its a pretty damn good thing. Either it means you've been able to stay away from the poisons, or your powers are pretty damn strong.

Also, I completely agree that animals reincarnate. I've never had a memory that shows me what animals I've been in past lives, but I can't see how it would be that they don't.

But hey, just my 2 cents

[siriusc]

I've been reading this thread with interest and as someone mentioned before they are just labels. However, I would like to point out that one does not chose to be a shauman. You are born one, you may turn away from that path or embrace it. It frustrates me to see people say they are interested in learning to be a shauman. It is not possible. If it is your path you may find a person willing to show you the way and take responsibility for you but it's not something that can be learned from a book, taking a course, or visiting a shauman to learn from. That path can only shine a light on a small amount of knowledge. True shaumanism is a gift.

[merlincove]

Merlincove, I can understand what you're saying. Really, I do. But I've found that the one's who you are referring to aren't Shamans. Like you said, they are the one's who use the label as a means of empowering their ego. In reality though, they have no idea what it really is, what it means to be a Shaman, and when you talk to them about it they either throw it in your face or ridicule you for it. I've seen it, and had it happen to me. But you know what? It doesn't bother me. My teacher used to tell me that there is a lot of healing to be done on this planet, and I think thats just one more thing we need to heal.

And also, I said I was 'initiated' into Shamanism. I made sure I put that word in these things: ' ' (can't think of what they're called... :o ). I used them because that was the first time I journeyed. But I guess a lot of the stuff in my life was leading up to it, and that was just the first time it all came together.

Peace

:cool: yeah, the journey can do that sometimes can't it :D

the first time i journeyed to the drum (i used to journey with my guide when i was a small child) was amazing.

That feeling is so powerful, 'reaer' than reality, much more real than a dream, i understand what you are saying - the drum journey was for me a pivotal aspect of my walk.

That first time, when i came back from the journey, as i lifted my hands to rub awakeness into my eyes, if i hadn't had been lying down i'd have fallen to the floor. I had just spent twenty minutes soaring as an eagle, fitting so easilly into its mind, the flexing of wings had become so ingrained within my mind that i was amazed to find i had fingers when i woke. Wow, what a rush. i just laughed and laughed, being a bird was so real, i had forgot i was in a human body. What an initiation - i totally see where you are coming from :D

And for those who flex their ego, i guess it is by their fruits that we know them ;)

[tannah]

[QUOTE]I am wondering if i can address a concern here, maybe you all can answer.
Several posters have said (and they may be correct ) that 70% of the people on earth have the spirit of the earth itself, like the animals and will merge with this Source after they die..But there are 30% who have spirit...the question here is that..is being able to speak with nature and the animals indicative of losing your spirit, or if you do this will you lose it?
I think this may be incorrect for me (at least from my experience) because i have experienced animals as having spirits...and they do reincarnate.

Personally I can't agree with the 70/30 thing. The Earthly Mother and Heavenly Father produce creation with no percentages pre-ordained.

I remember walking past a group of young nursery children once, and they were all making animal kinda noises as they chatted and played, and I remember wondering if they were fresh incarnations from a more previous animal existence, or indeed if there is as much seperation at that young an age.


there is a guy Tannah who writes about Jesus as a shaman, "Reiki Shamanism" by Jim Pathfinder Ewing..it is a little to 'lightworker' for my taste, but to each his own.

Yes, I didn't mention Jesus though. Jesus is a Christ, but Christ is not solely Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus is symbolically a centering energy. I had a quick look for this Jim guy, and like you I am not a big "lightworker" kinda person! Work as me, no group to identify with:D I always plan my "getaway" from most I have encountered.

[the om]

I've been reading this thread with interest and as someone mentioned before they are just labels. However, I would like to point out that one does not chose to be a shauman. You are born one, you may turn away from that path or embrace it. It frustrates me to see people say they are interested in learning to be a shauman. It is not possible. If it is your path you may find a person willing to show you the way and take responsibility for you but it's not something that can be learned from a book, taking a course, or visiting a shauman to learn from. That path can only shine a light on a small amount of knowledge. True shaumanism is a gift.

I know what you mean, but in essence, the word 'Shaman' really isn't much different than 'Christian' (in that its a label). Sure, you are born into a situation that gives you a certain advantage in being a Shaman, but ultimately its your life experiences and your outlook on life that will either lead you to embrace it or shun it away. I think that we are all born with the ability to be Shamans, its just that some people's paths have led them to have an outlook on life that doesn't allow for them to experience such things. Hell, one of my best friends back in Switzerland is like that.

[tannah]

What a beautiful post, really made me smile. And reminded me of a time i journeyed last year, where i was told to keep my candle burning, 'see what happens when you light a candle, the darkness can not get into the light, the light pushes the darkness away - do not allow anyone to tempt you to extinguish your flame...'

A beautiful metaphor that you were given.



+1 :-)

Cheers, the Om and Merlincove! It's awesome to know what winners we are as who we are manifests according to the lighted candle.

[siriusc]

I know what you mean, but in essence, the word 'Shaman' really isn't much different than 'Christian' (in that its a label). Sure, you are born into a situation that gives you a certain advantage in being a Shaman, but ultimately its your life experiences and your outlook on life that will either lead you to embrace it or shun it away. I think that we are all born with the ability to be Shamans, its just that some people's paths have led them to have an outlook on life that doesn't allow for them to experience such things. Hell, one of my best friends back in Switzerland is like that.

I understand what you are saying, I just worry to see those just starting out on their discovery being seduced by something they think they want to become instead of listening to their own drum beat and developing what they already are. We are meant to be different. I like to think of it as different cells of the body, we can't all be brain cells.

[amethyst]

I dunno about that...the christians i personally know are some of the most tormented and angry people in my circle of aquaintances..constant bad luck and catastrophe..
So this hedge of protection doesn't seem to be working for them, in fact this free price tag just shuts them off from protection and allows "the devil" to beat the snot out of them.

Without knowing them personally, I certainly wouldn't comment specifically. But the question is, do they really know God and are they really walking with Him?

Some (not all) calamity teaches humility. Do you let it teach you or do you let it make you bitter?

[the om]

I understand what you are saying, I just worry to see those just starting out on their discovery being seduced by something they think they want to become instead of listening to their own drum beat and developing what they already are. We are meant to be different. I like to think of it as different cells of the body, we can't all be brain cells.

Exactly! We're all here to follow our own paths. Where they take us, well thats completely up to us.

[amethyst]

Yes, I didn't mention Jesus though. Jesus is a Christ, but Christ is not solely Jesus.

Jesus is not "a" christ.

Jesus is "the" Christos (Christ)- the "anointed" of God.

[merlincove]

The way I see it, the animals haven't been poisoned with the shit we have been (sure, they've been affected by mercury and such, which is horrible, but I think its safe to say we've been poisoned a little more...), like fluoride, aspartame, and, like many animals, mercury. Now, a lot of people have speculated as to the nature of these poisons, and the general consensus seems to be that they are used to dumb down our third eye. So, I guess if you are able to communicate with animals through psychic experience, its a pretty damn good thing. Either it means you've been able to stay away from the poisons, or your powers are pretty damn strong.

Also, I completely agree that animals reincarnate. I've never had a memory that shows me what animals I've been in past lives, but I can't see how it would be that they don't.

But hey, just my 2 cents

Also animals do not have the programe to contend with. They remian outside the program of control. i have a very dear buddhist friend, he is a lama, and he said to me one time, that the animals and plants are by nature lama's (teachers) they do not have to attain such status, they simply be such.

Animals reincarnate? Many shamans will tell you that time does not exist, do they then believe in past life's?

Are we re-incarnate souls, or are we incarnate beings experiencing one lifetime within a single stream of many?

If time does not exist (which i feel is a great truth, that time is an illusory affect in which to control the minds of man, a created form to map causality - although it is a much needed affect, as it allows us to form a basis of here and now, i feel it still remains the greatest and most potent tool for control and suppression) the access of 'past' lives is simply moving the consciousness from one part of the single stream to another....?

i don't want to steamroller this thread, but i have posted my thoughts on the conceptional aspects of time and how ni believe it enslaves our mind elsewhere.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74611

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1187644#post1187644

But i do find it interesting, the concievance of past lives when viewed against the concept that time does not exist.

i think what we percieve as past lives are concurrent incarnations with our current conception of existing here and now, that all our percieved past lives exist in the single stream of consciousness - that right now my higher self has populated my stream of conscious awareness with lives happening in Elizabethan England, The Crucades, Viking times, within Pre-Columbus Americas, and that they are all happening at the same time, that i am experiencing them all at the same time, because time does not actually exist?

I'm not saying that this is for sure, just that time is a part of the illusion - and when you step out of that illusion, in this instance within the shamanic journey, you allow your spirit the freedom to escape the boundaries of the real, into a space where time does not exist (a journey that passes for 20 minutes in real time can gift us with great expanse of time in altered state, a day in the life of an eagle, a heartbeat of a tree) and therefore allows us to escape the boundaries of length and bredth and size.

i don't feel that time is real, although it has a real essence in the thinking of the mind, whether others believe in this or can take it on board or not is their own journey, but for now, i am trying to unravel the essense of my conscious reality from the boundaries of time.

:D

[danceswithbunnies]

The way I see it, the animals haven't been poisoned with the shit we have been (sure, they've been affected by mercury and such, which is horrible, but I think its safe to say we've been poisoned a little more...), like fluoride, aspartame, and, like many animals, mercury. Now, a lot of people have speculated as to the nature of these poisons, and the general consensus seems to be that they are used to dumb down our third eye. So, I guess if you are able to communicate with animals through psychic experience, its a pretty damn good thing. Either it means you've been able to stay away from the poisons, or your powers are pretty damn strong.

Also, I completely agree that animals reincarnate. I've never had a memory that shows me what animals I've been in past lives, but I can't see how it would be that they don't.

But hey, just my 2 cents

Yeah, i have had some amazing experiences with animals..they taught me what love was all about...i have bunnies, and they do reincarnate to me.

The last experience when my eldest died (december 2008)was a real kicker, if you are interested i can send you a pm,i am not going to post that one..but that one's brother died in 2006..i dreamt about being in a green BEAUTIFUL meadow, the colors were more intense than anything i had ever seen..bunny cages were standing empty in the meadow, and this woman and i were trying to communicate with the dead on an antique radio set...as i woke up i felt bunny paws running across my arm and leg..

The experiences seem to be developing naturally no matter what path i walk.

THAT is an angle i had never considered...the poisons.
Back around 2007 i hit toxic overload with the MSG in the processed food i was eating, it is in EVERYTHING...corn syrup, vitamin C, modified Food starch..i thought i was going to die..muscle spasms, vertigo, fatigue, blurred vision ,swollen thyroid..bleeding..and within a week of stopping processed foods ALL those symptoms STOPPED.
It takes a year to clear all of it out..It hits the endocrine system HARD..
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/

MSG is more addictive than nicotine (which is more addictive than heroine)
Hidden sources:
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html

Because there is so much info pumped out by the food manufacturers AND because i am so addicted to certain foods (thai food...), i will usually convince myself that the symptoms are all in my head...as soon as i start eating this stuff though i feel sick and if i ignore it and keep it up, within a month there will be a major ailment pop up.

I absolutely must eat straight unprocessed food, i have no choice,.

But i am so glad you brought that up because that may be a factor in hindering ability, and i never thought about it.
Definitely need to check out eliminating flouride .

Thank you for bringing that up.

[danceswithbunnies]

Also animals do not have the programe to contend with. They remian outside the program of control. i have a very dear buddhist friend, he is a lama, and he said to me one time, that the animals and plants are by nature lama's (teachers) they do not have to attain such status, they simply be such.

That was my intuitive grokking of it too, but i keep an open mind towards some other ways of looking at things..My animals have taught me more than any human.


i don't feel that time is real, although it has a real essence in the thinking of the mind, whether others believe in this or can take it on board or not is their own journey, but for now, i am trying to unravel the essense of my conscious reality from the boundaries of time.

:D

I kinda think that too, but as we speak, what is here, we are constrained to time..i have had some very powerful obe/dreams that indicate that time is not real...it is too hard for me to try to describe some of that in words..so i just call this universe, inny outie world..

[tannah]

Jesus is not "a" christ.

Jesus is "the" Christos (Christ)- the "anointed" of God.

With many brothers and sisters. People think that to understand our own Christ it somehow weakens the Christ within Jesus and the surrounding symbology.
Bear in mind that we are not lodgers within the "house" of God.

There's a lot about Jesus not mentioned in the bible. I checked out as much of it as possible. If you have something to say about the pros and cons of that, why not make a post to the "Christian perspective" thread.

[amethyst]

With many brothers and sisters. People think that to understand our own Christ it somehow weakens the Christ within Jesus and the surrounding symbology.
Bear in mind that we are not lodgers within the "house" of God.

There's a lot about Jesus not mentioned in the bible. I checked out as much of it as possible. If you have something to say about the pros and cons of that, why not make a post to the "Christian perspective" thread.

But are you "anointed" of God?

I've had this discussion before on here. You can become like God, or god-like, but you will never be God because there is only one God (the Creator) with a capital "G".

We didn't create ourselves. I'm guessing you disagree?

Jesus said He was the "I AM". All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things originate from Him.

[tannah]

[QUOTE]But are you "anointed" of God?

I've had this discussion before on here. You can become like God, or god-like, but you will never be God because there is only one God (the Creator) with a capital "G".



The same is true for the analogy between a drop in the ocean and the ocean itself.


We didn't create ourselves. I'm guessing you disagree?


I've said quite a few times my own opinion is that we are created in image of God. So are trees, animals, and the elements. All things contain this. Nothing has been made that doesn't contain it.



Jesus said He was the "I AM". All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All things originate from Him.


All things "through the Word", the non-dual giving birth to the duality, a single force expressing itself as light/dark, positive/negative, masculine/feminine in order to manifest. We can get ourselves lost and identify with the duality, when actually our home is a non-dual residence, planted in us as the image of God, that is, unconditional Love (neither of the dual conditions). That's how I understand it at present.

[amethyst]

[QUOTE=tannah;1195973][QUOTE=amethyst;1195896]

I've said quite a few times my own opinion is that we are created in image of God. So are trees, animals, and the elements. All things contain this. Nothing has been made that doesn't contain it.

Sorry, I overlooked your posts stating that...ya know, the comments fly fast and furious in the "religion" section :D It's hard to keep track of what someone wrote or didn't write. That's the limitations of a forum.

Yes, I agree, God's thumbprint is on and in all creation. We haven't lived during a time like before the fall in the garden- (that's where darkness entered into mankind and/including the animal kingdom)

We just can't comprehend (in our natural minds) what it was like to walk with God in perfect unity, harmony and perfection. Thus, the necessity of Jesus Christ-God coming to the earth in the flesh, to restore back to us what was lost in the garden, before the fall. And to restore our darkened consciences as well.

This is where the spiritual transformation: ie: being "born again" of God's Spirit takes place. As Christ said 'you must be born again' in order to "see" the kingdom of heaven.

[amethyst]

[QUOTE]
Sorry, I overlooked your posts stating that...ya know, the comments fly fast and furious in the "religion" section :D It's hard to keep track of what someone wrote or didn't write. That's the limitations of a forum.

Yes, I agree, God's thumbprint is on and in all creation. We haven't lived during a time like before the fall in the garden- (that's where darkness entered into mankind and/including the animal kingdom)

We just can't comprehend (in our natural minds) what it was like to walk with God in perfect unity, harmony and perfection. Thus, the necessity of Jesus Christ-God coming to the earth in the flesh, to restore back to us what was lost in the garden, before the fall. And to restore our darkened consciences as well.

This is where the spiritual transformation: ie: being "born again" of God's Spirit takes place. As Christ said 'you must be born again' in order to "see" the kingdom of heaven

(Editing myself: Not only with Christ's coming to earth did He restore our darkened consciences, (if you receive Him and have experienced the "new" uncorrupted spiritual re-birth) but in truth, His coming is the restoration of ALL things....a removal of the corruption and the corrupted things here on earth. Evil rule will have an end.

"Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN" said Christ.

The fulfillment of this is the millenium or the thousand year reign of Christ, which commences at the end of this "age", after the false "christ" has tested and sifted the hearts of men)

[miracles]

You don't know what you I'm talking about

Correct

[miracles]

I dunno about that...the christians i personally know are some of the most tormented and angry people in my circle of aquaintances..constant bad luck and catastrophe..
So this hedge of protection doesn't seem to be working for them, in fact this free price tag just shuts them off from protection and allows "the devil" to beat the snot out of them.

Wether you like it or not, as you "used to be a fundie Christian": that would mean you received Christ as your saviour" Which is what a Christian is. So you are a Christian. Nothing can change that, you are sealed. God will allow you to go loose, but mark my words, "He who started a good work in you will bring it through to completion". You are in safe hands, which is why you are getting away with dabbling with demons.

[the om]

I kinda think that too, but as we speak, what is here, we are constrained to time..i have had some very powerful obe/dreams that indicate that time is not real...it is too hard for me to try to describe some of that in words..so i just call this universe, inny outie world..



You know, I've done some thinking on the subject of time (actually, the idea I'm about to share was what got my teacher to notice I might be able to remember how to be a Shaman), and I think that time really does not exists in the linear fashion that seems to dominate our world. You see, I realized that the only moment we ever experience is the Now. Now, seeing things like that means that there is no past or future, since they were also Now. Right? So I came to the conclusion that every moment we ever experience is nothing but a unique manifestation of the eternal Now. Its not then, its Now.

Peace

[tannah]

(Editing myself: Not only with Christ's coming to earth did He

He?


restore our darkened consciences, (if you receive Him and have experienced the "new" uncorrupted spiritual re-birth) but in truth, His coming is the restoration of ALL things....a removal of the corruption and the corrupted things here on earth. Evil rule will have an end.

We've caused that corruption. It's about time one stopped using this "devil" as an excuse. And we have to "restore" ourselves. It's a cop out to think we need not experience the work it takes, and just take on a half blind further corrupted message from the past. There's no cheap way back to our real Self.

I say we're all born with a Christ Self, a Higher Self. So one has to peel away the layers of conditioning and identify their own attachments that blind them to this reality. This may be the real meaning of being born again, in that one is firstly born as a Christ Self, then it's conditioned out of one, and after the refining and seeking, one re-discovers it. Becoming like little children is a metaphor for re-discovering the preconditioned Self.

Meditation and disciplining oneself to let go of attachment is like sweeping a cluttered room. I know it works.


"Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN" said Christ.


We also pray that. Heaven is within. It's directly related to the bit of the gospel of Thomas posted the other day:


Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html


That one line you quoted is a prayer for heaven on earth, inside becoming the outside. This little vital piece of advice from the gospel of Thomas is a dangerous thing, and if there are powers that wish us not to become merged within, one can understand why it hasn't been included in a biblical context.

The fulfillment of this is the millenium or the thousand year reign of Christ, which commences at the end of this "age", after the false "Christ" has tested and sifted the hearts of men)

Man is the true Christ and the false Christ (blind illusion seekers)

I went through the bible trip. There's a Muslim somewhere right now getting off on the verses from his own holy book, and a Buddhist somewhere getting off on her sacred texts.

I have got to the stage where I only recognize an all inclusive God, or no God at all. The word of God has to be all inclusive. Whenever I read something which isn't all inclusive, I instantly know it isn't God's word. People of the past did well, we gotta finish off the job and unite this world. Unconditional Love is God, and it means exactly what it says, unconditional.
All inclusive means All Reality, with the illusion left out. That applies to all people of all faiths and even non faiths. Their actions are always being weighed in the balance, regardless of label.

And I apologize for helping this thread go off topic.

[merlincove]

QUOTE: And I apologize for helping this thread go off topic.

it is quite interesting that Christ has been discussed so deeply within this thread.

Christ had amazing healing abilities, but his link beyond the illusion allowed him to heal right back to the sourse, he heraled the rifts that time created, connected the still bodies of the dead with theier departed souls, halted the emergance of karmic contracts, if you would call them that, in healing lepers.

In aspiring to his teachings we become better hman beings, better souls journeying in human time, better healers.

Christ not only saw into dark paces, he had the vission to see beyond them.

Christ is a light we can all aspire to, his lioght in this thread is most welcome, as it is in all places.

I feel that Christ was and is the breath of God, manifest within the earth walk, maybe in order that He may comprehend our journey?

i don't think we can fully understand Christ, because the words we read today of his time have been so manipulated by the minds of man. Christ exists within us all, in the same way that God exists within us all.

'Anointed by God,' so what do we understand about the word 'anointed'? In my mind i see it as 'to apply an oil, liquid substance, or to choose by divine covernance, both seem to apply to the incarnate occurance of Christ on Earth, if you see the soul / spirit as being applied to the material?

[armoured_amazon]

Wether you like it or not, as you "used to be a fundie Christian": that would mean you received Christ as your saviour" Which is what a Christian is. So you are a Christian. Nothing can change that, you are sealed. God will allow you to go loose, but mark my words, "He who started a good work in you will brig it through to completion". You are in safe hands, which is why you are getting away with dabbling with demons.

AGREED. Like I said, this is just a fap thread. "I used to be a xxx but now I'm so enlightened and blah blah blah." This is a thread for the OP to tell how many parlour tricks he/she can do...don't mess with stuff you profess to master, OP, otherwise you may get a little jolt as you're put back in your place.

I've been reading this thread with interest and as someone mentioned before they are just labels. However, I would like to point out that one does not chose to be a shauman. You are born one, you may turn away from that path or embrace it. It frustrates me to see people say they are interested in learning to be a shauman. It is not possible. If it is your path you may find a person willing to show you the way and take responsibility for you but it's not something that can be learned from a book, taking a course, or visiting a shauman to learn from. That path can only shine a light on a small amount of knowledge. True shaumanism is a gift.

+1

[eternal_spirit]

I didn't expect anything less than the usual repetition of opinions from all sides. There's alot I'd like to say, but I'd probably be beaten down with Bibles or Christ is saviour slogans, or even lambasted by people wielding pentagrams/hexagrams. (also I'd probably be accused of batting for both sides, or one or the other side by both sides) LOL! De ja vu.

Maybe later chow for now.
:D

[merlincove]

I didn't expect anything less than the usual repetition of opinions from all sides. There's alot I'd like to say, but I'd probably be beaten down with Bibles or Christ is saviour slogans, or even lambasted by people wielding pentagrams/hexagrams. (also I'd probably be accused of batting for both sides, or one or the other side by both sides) LOL! De ja vu.

Maybe later chow for now.
:D

everyones truth is different, yet they are equally valid as truths, across the board.

As i have conme to discover though, the most impoortant aspect of truth , is that it is an intrinsic trait ~ that your truth be your own truth and not a carbon copy of a truth you have been told is true by another. That your truth be your truth, absolutely yours - shaped by your own reality: a record of your journey and the lessons you have personally learned as its core design framework, this is of great importance.

The bible and the teachings of Christ can help us to find our core truth, because no matter how much it has been re-written and translated, it is such a powerful work that its beauty wil not allow itself to go unseen. Some will live their life by biblical doctrine, and if that is empowering for them then that is all well and good - though they will still be living their life with a truth that is someone elses perspective, by anothers creed.

i for one link with christ and accept his beauty as a part of my truth. I try not to be judgemental, sometimnes i fail, but each time i fail i see that i am undertaking a lesson. Sometimes i learn from that lesson, other times i dont. Sometimes i don't even see the lesson. But for those who profess spirituality / christ consciousness / divine covenance / christianity and befall into judgemental attitude without comprehension of doing so, to dispell the opinions and the truths of others in the light of their own righteousness, such people declare their unwillingness to accept the truth that they apparently believe in, imo.

[jojo]

We hold regular drumming journey sessions, and i feel that the participants / journeyrs recieve invaluable self and personal healing from such.

hi merlincove
really?? :) i was at a drumming circle last night, round a fire, in the starlight, mostly women. are you in derbyshire?




Some of the most gifted shaman i know are females, btw...
;)


Are the Toltec shaman? Is Toltec another word for shaman? The Toltec are teachers, much of their teaching resonates with me, not all but much, and i feel that the Toltec traditions are much more shamanic than any other tradition.

i too have studdied the toltec traditions. they awoke me years ago and i still live my life by their core teachings now

[marpat]

Your an academic, you get the point. Oh yeah what "gifts"? God doesnt have grandchildren, maybe satan does, the sins of the fathers to the fourth generation handed down, ring any bells? And satan was rather fond of Christ, he offered him a job to rule the world.

But if God is the ultimate power in the universe then who is satan to give power over the world? he would have to have gods authority to do this, which means god sent satan to tempt jesus, just as in Job.

[merlincove]

hi merlincove
really?? :) i was at a drumming circle last night, round a fire, in the starlight, mostly women. are you in derbyshire?

;)




i too have studdied the toltec traditions. they awoke me years ago and i still live my life by their core teachings now

:D

we are on the derbyshire / notts border, a little town called heanor if you know it?

Am i right in thinking you an h are in stoke?

[jojo]

:D

we are on the derbyshire / notts border, a little town called heanor if you know it?

Am i right in thinking you an h are in stoke?

yep just on the staffs/cheshire/shropshire border :)

[miracles]

But if God is the ultimate power in the universe then who is satan to give power over the world? he would have to have gods authority to do this, which means god sent satan to tempt jesus, just as in Job.

Yes satan has been given authority, but only in that it fulfills God's ultimate will and purpose to save mankind. The only satisfactory answer (well maybe not satisfactory to some) as to why God put the tree of knowldege in the Garden, knowing that satan would successfully tempt Eve, and then Adam, was to fulfill Gods puprose, He immediately set about fulfilling that purpose by promising to crush satans head under the heal of Christ in Genisis 3:15. Then Christ came and said "it is finished" The thing is we are saved and redeemed as soon as we see our need for it. Adam and Eve saw that need immediately, I personally saw that need when I was 11. All will see with their need for redemption eventually, although some chose to reject it and exalt themselves above God, saying they are gods, just like satan did.

Satan is the ruler of this worlds system, a christian is in the world, but no longer of the world, a Christian doesn't love this world because we see with open spiritual eyes who is running the show, our only purpose is to set the captives free. The name of Christ is hated in the "world" only because satan controlls it. Jesus Christ is a swear word. Personally, I can't wait to get the flock out of here. Do you want to come too?

Dont get me wrong, I love my family and friends, and I have compassion for people, but I detest with a passion what goes on in the world and this worlds system and its getting worse, not better. I hope Christ delays his return, I would to like to live a long life on earth and see my son grow up, and have grand children, and let them have a full life too. Im not a doom and gloom merchant who wants armhagedon to happen. I only want people to be saved and see their need for Christ. When that happens we already are in heaven. Hell is a place without God, and we can live our whole lives in hell on earth.

Many non Christian people see this too, but not many see the way out or the solution. They just make do and get by what ever way they can. Which is all one can do.

[miracles]

Ok dude, first off, the person who gave me the hammer helped me install storm windows on my house with it.

Second, you said it yourself: Shamanism can help to heal illness, and tell the future. If you could look me in the eye and tell me that these aren't two incredibly useful traits, well... I dunno. But I don't think you could.

Third, I underlined italicized and bolded the origin of the word 'Sham'. The late 1600's. Doesn't that strike you as a little strange? I mean, the word 'shaman' (in one form or another) has been around for millennia. Then, all of a sudden, in the late 1600's, WHICH, by the way, happens to be when the infamous Witch Trials were taking place, this word pops up, incriminating a practice that has helped people for millennia, but the Christian church seems to have a problem with. Now. If thats not an influence of the Illuminati, well, I really dont know what is...

And also, the spirits I've worked with have all operated in the name of Love, and have taught me to live in Love. Satan does not (CANnot) operate in Love, because by definition, he is the opposite of Love.

Satan gives people everything they want, he has that power. Storm windows, sheesh, if your gonna mess with that stuff why not go the whole hog and get a castle and money and fame and riches, you can have that too. If you are going to lose your soul you may as well gain the whole world. Ask the loving spirits, the will give it you.

Satan has the power to appear as angel of light and love. All of the false religions masgurade as love.

[danceswithbunnies]

Just wanted to thank the christians on the board for once again hijacking the thread.

I will see you folks later...

but consider this, To people who do come to this board, who are not christian, your behavior in this and other threads
(as in thank you miracles for calling me a "murderer")
The constant namecalling, thread hijacking and patent nastiness that you all engage in, makes a very powerful example to people TO NOT BECOME CHRISTIAN OR EVEN CONSIDER WHAT CHRIST SAID...
Congratualtions...well done good and faithful servants.

[the om]

Satan gives people everything they want, he has that power. Storm windows, sheesh, if your gonna mess with that stuff why not go the whole hog and get a castle and money and fame and riches, you can have that too. If you are going to lose your soul you may as well gain the whole world. Ask the loving spirits, the will give it you.

Satan has the power to appear as angel of light and love. All of the false religions masgurade as love.

Ok. Look. If you were to try this, I'm pretty sure you'd see that its origin is not of Satan. Its pure Love. Not addictive, no strings attached, simply Love. What you need in the moment. Not what you want, but what you need.

And you said to "ask the loving spirits, the will give it you". The loving spirits are exactly the ones I deal with. I do healing on spirits who need it (the ones that have lost their way), but I dont interact with them.

And I know what you mean, when you say that "Satan has the power to appear as angel of light and love"; I've seen it. Satan tried to trick me like that once, but I saw through it. You know how? I trusted in what I had learned from the Spirits I met while Journeying.

And yes, storm windows. Because thats all I need. She knows that whether or not my house will stand against the storm is up to the way I built it. She just helped me to fill in the weaknesses.

You also said that I should go the whole nine yards and "gain the world [since I'm selling my soul]". I haven't sold my soul. I know who I am (I know what I am), and that kind of knowledge is something that Satan can't even begin to contend with. He can't challenge it, since he knows it to be true, and he can't battle it because he represents the darkness, while I represent the light. There's an old metaphor: you can bring a candle into a dark room and it will light up, but you can't bring darkness into a bright room and expect it to darken.

And I do agree with what you said, where "all false religions masquerade as love". I completely agree. They tell people that they aren't good enough, but since these 'religions' love them, they will help them to be better. I know. But as long as you trust yourself and what you feel about something (not what you think you feel, because it seems cool or something), you can't go wrong, since you are allowing yourself to be guided by the creator. Thats the way I see it.

I've gotta say though, I find it interesting that you ignored my comment about the origin of the word 'sham'. You brought it up, lets hear some rebuttal on that one! :p :D

[marpat]

Yes satan has been given authority, but only in that it fulfills God's ultimate will and purpose to save mankind. The only satisfactory answer (well maybe not satisfactory to some) as to why God put the tree of knowldege in the Garden, knowing that satan would successfully tempt Eve, and then Adam, was to fulfill Gods puprose, He immediately set about fulfilling that purpose by promising to crush satans head under the heal of Christ in Genisis 3:15. Then Christ came and said "it is finished" The thing is we are saved and redeemed as soon as we see our need for it. Adam and Eve saw that need immediately, I personally saw that need when I was 11. All will see with their need for redemption eventually, although some chose to reject it and exalt themselves above God, saying they are gods, just like satan did.

Satan is the ruler of this worlds system, a christian is in the world, but no longer of the world, a Christian doesn't love this world because we see with open spiritual eyes who is running the show, our only purpose is to set the captives free. The name of Christ is hated in the "world" only because satan controlls it. Jesus Christ is a swear word. Personally, I can't wait to get the flock out of here. Do you want to come too?

Dont get me wrong, I love my family and friends, and I have compassion for people, but I detest with a passion what goes on in the world and this worlds system and its getting worse, not better. I hope Christ delays his return, I would to like to live a long life on earth and see my son grow up, and have grand children, and let them have a full life too. Im not a doom and gloom merchant who wants armhagedon to happen. I only want people to be saved and see their need for Christ. When that happens we already are in heaven. Hell is a place without God, and we can live our whole lives in hell on earth.

Many non Christian people see this too, but not many see the way out or the solution. They just make do and get by what ever way they can. Which is all one can do.

Genesis does not say the serpent will be crushed by christ as that term is not even used in the pentateuch. The serpent gets its head bruised by the womans heel.

If people are made in the image of god and contain his life then they are in essence living by the the god force, so they are as gods. Notice that genesis says, 'they have eaten of the fruit and become like US, to know good and evil'. The bible says we are as gods but this does not mean that we exalt ourselves in any way over god. I cant understand how you could even conceive that. Can you quote any bible reference where satan says he is greater than god? why would god give authority to a fallen spirit to rule over all of his physical creation then punish us for failure? it is like selling your children into slavery.

Satan is doing gods work by testing souls for weakness. Christians fear being tested and see his function as evil and blame him for all of the things that they dont wish to acknowledge themselves. Examples are where people sin greatly and instead of admitting it they look to blame the devil, who they then make their scapegoat.

I hate the smug piety and self righeousness of christians who think they are spiritually superior to others. I once had some stop me in the street and tell my that I am a sinner although they did not know me. That really won me over to their cause.

[edelweiss pirate]

Satan is doing gods work by testing souls for weakness. Christians fear being tested and see his function as evil and blame him for all of the things that they dont wish to acknowledge themselves. Examples are where people sin greatly and instead of admitting it they look to blame the devil, who they then make their scapegoat.

I hate the smug piety and self righeousness of christians who think they are spiritually superior to others. I once had some stop me in the street and tell my that I am a sinner although they did not know me. That really won me over to their cause.

I don't believe God has anything to do with the testing process. I've been through it and found it to be slightly unfair and a bit contrived and I expect many people suffer horribly on false pretences... nor does this testing lead to an improvement of conditions on earth as those who are punished become damned and spread their damnation to others.

Obviously I got through the test otherwise it's unlikely I'd be in a fit mental state to post on this forum.

There are invisible beings involved but I don't believe they represent God as I know it.

More like the old-testament bully Jahweh and his odd posse of destroying angels.

I saw that so called religion and so called evil are two sides of the the same system of opression. This is outlined in the Book of Job as you know.

[marpat]

I don't believe God has anything to do with the testing process. I've been through it and found it to be slightly unfair and a bit contrived and I expect many people suffer horribly on false pretences... nor does this testing lead to an improvement of conditions on earth as those who are punished become damned and spread their damnation to others.

Obviously I got through the test otherwise it's unlikely I'd be in a fit mental state to post on this forum.

There are invisible beings involved but I don't believe they represent God as I know it.

More like the old-testament bully Jahweh and his odd posse of destroying angels.

I saw that so called religion and so called evil are two sides of the the same system of opression. This is outlined in the Book of Job as you know.

Who said people are suffering under false pretences? even Jesus said that people are made to suffer so that gods glory can manifest in them.

[edelweiss pirate]

Those that fail the test develop schizophrenia (the so called Shaman's illness) and have to join esoteric masonry in order to have a support group which will protect them and allow them to function in society. In return they perpetuate the testing process on others.

From what I see of the world not many people pass the test. All these stars and celebrities are failed candidates who are testing the rest of society through the promotion of vice, avarice and general imbecility. This explains the reason for masonic involvement in paedophilia, prostitution and pornography, one reason is as a test, it is also used for blackmail and trauma based mind control.

Is it really necessary? It certainly isn't moral.

[miracles]

Genesis does not say the serpent will be crushed by christ as that term is not even used in the pentateuch. The serpent gets its head bruised by the womans heel.

If people are made in the image of god and contain his life then they are in essence living by the the god force, so they are as gods. Notice that genesis says, 'they have eaten of the fruit and become like US, to know good and evil'. The bible says we are as gods but this does not mean that we exalt ourselves in any way over god. I cant understand how you could even conceive that. Can you quote any bible reference where satan says he is greater than god? why would god give authority to a fallen spirit to rule over all of his physical creation then punish us for failure? it is like selling your children into slavery.

Satan is doing gods work by testing souls for weakness. Christians fear being tested and see his function as evil and blame him for all of the things that they dont wish to acknowledge themselves. Examples are where people sin greatly and instead of admitting it they look to blame the devil, who they then make their scapegoat.

I hate the smug piety and self righeousness of christians who think they are spiritually superior to others. I once had some stop me in the street and tell my that I am a sinner although they did not know me. That really won me over to their cause.

15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203.15-16&version=47;#fen-ESV-71a)] and(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203.15-16&version=47;#cen-ESV-71A)) her offspring;
(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203.15-16&version=47;#cen-ESV-71B)) he (Christ) shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel

No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be as gods who know what is good and what is bad."


Okay, Thanks ALEISTER.and Satan. "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north

I can understand how any one who quotes Crowley and Satan and then concludes that satan is good, sees things the way you do. Lets leave it there shall we. I hate blind leaders of the blind. So there for we hate each other and are enemies.

[tannah]

15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203.15-16&version=47;#fen-ESV-71a)] and(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203.15-16&version=47;#cen-ESV-71A)) her offspring;
(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203.15-16&version=47;#cen-ESV-71B)) he (Christ) shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel

No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be as gods who know what is good and what is bad."


Okay, Thanks ALEISTER.and Satan.

I can understand how any one who quotes Crowley and Satan and then concludes that satan is good, sees things the way you do. Lets leave it there shall we. I hate blind leaders of the blind. So there for we hate each other and are enemies.

That's really good Miracles, people with their eyes open are blind!! Much better to be a parrot eh man?

[miracles]

That's really good Miracles, people with their eyes open are blind!! Much better to be a parrot eh man?

Right, Go and read the post on love you posted before again, and let it sink in. I dont love wrong doing and lies. I hate it. People with their eye closed to the truth are blind and mArpat is clearly blind.

love miracles.

[tannah]

Right, Go and read the post on love you posted before again, and let it sink in. I dont love wrong doing and lies. I hate it. People with their eye closed to the truth are blind and mArpat is clearly blind.

love miracles.

Dear o dear Miracles. If you think about it, this eating of an apple and knowing good and bad is simply so people can judge things like the Massa does. Put the apple down ol boy.

I suggest you also let that "love" quote sink in, just one more time, even though you have probably read it hundreds of times.

LT

[miracles]

Dear o dear Miracles. If you think about it, this eating of an apple and knowing good and bad is simply so people can judge things like the Massa does. Put the apple down ol boy.

I suggest you also let that "love" quote sink in, just one more time, even though you have probably read it hundreds of times.

LT

I dont like apples. :D

[chris_com283]

I know what occult means mate. When you dabble in that stuff, it wont be long before the bloke that gave you the hammer caves your head in with it.

Shaman

sha⋅man
(esp. among certain tribal peoples) a person who acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc.


sham1.something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious imitation; fraud or hoax.2.a person who shams; shammer.3.a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward appearance: a pillow sham.
–adjective 4.pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic façade. 5.designed, made, or used as a sham.
–verb (used with object) 6.to produce an imitation of.7.to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness.
–verb (used without object) 8.to make a false show of something; pretend.

Origin:
1670–80; orig. uncert.http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

Synonyms:
1. pretense. 4. spurious, make-believe, simulated, mock. See false. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=false&db=luna) 6. imitate. 7. feign, fake.

So you see, a shaman is being shamed by satan. You think you are in control, when you are actually being controlled.
Can I have a go?

1677, "a trick, a hoax, a fraud," perhaps from sham, a northern dialectal variant of shame (q.v.). Sense of "Something meant to be mistaken for something else" is from 1728. The meaning in pillow-sham (1721) is from the notion of "counterfeit." The adj. is attested from 1681; the verb from 1677. Shamateur "amateur sportsman who acts like a professional" is from 1896.
http://www.etymonline.com

1698, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples," probably via Ger. Schamane, from Rus. shaman, from Tungus shaman, which is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Skt. sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=shaman


As mentioned, a (debated) approach explains the etymology of word “shaman” as meaning “one who knows”.
Shamanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know where you got the idea that shamanism comes from the word sham. Seems you've studied at the Jordan Maxwell school of Etymology.

[miracles]

Can I have a go?

1677, "a trick, a hoax, a fraud," perhaps from sham, a northern dialectal variant of shame (q.v.). Sense of "Something meant to be mistaken for something else" is from 1728. The meaning in pillow-sham (1721) is from the notion of "counterfeit." The adj. is attested from 1681; the verb from 1677. Shamateur "amateur sportsman who acts like a professional" is from 1896.
http://www.etymonline.com

1698, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples," probably via Ger. Schamane, from Rus. shaman, from Tungus shaman, which is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Skt. sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=shaman


As mentioned, a (debated) approach explains the etymology of word “shaman” as meaning “one who knows”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism

I don't know where you got the idea that shamanism comes from the word sham. Seems you've studied at the Jordan Maxwell school of Etymology.

I just saw the similarities in the words. But I didnt need the dictionary to know shamanism is a sham and a shame. :D

[miracles]

Ok. Look. If you were to try this, I'm pretty sure you'd see that its origin is not of Satan. Its pure Love. Not addictive, no strings attached, simply Love. What you need in the moment. Not what you want, but what you need.

And you said to "ask the loving spirits, the will give it you". The loving spirits are exactly the ones I deal with. I do healing on spirits who need it (the ones that have lost their way), but I dont interact with them.

And I know what you mean, when you say that "Satan has the power to appear as angel of light and love"; I've seen it. Satan tried to trick me like that once, but I saw through it. You know how? I trusted in what I had learned from the Spirits I met while Journeying.

And yes, storm windows. Because thats all I need. She knows that whether or not my house will stand against the storm is up to the way I built it. She just helped me to fill in the weaknesses.

You also said that I should go the whole nine yards and "gain the world [since I'm selling my soul]". I haven't sold my soul. I know who I am (I know what I am), and that kind of knowledge is something that Satan can't even begin to contend with. He can't challenge it, since he knows it to be true, and he can't battle it because he represents the darkness, while I represent the light. There's an old metaphor: you can bring a candle into a dark room and it will light up, but you can't bring darkness into a bright room and expect it to darken.

And I do agree with what you said, where "all false religions masquerade as love". I completely agree. They tell people that they aren't good enough, but since these 'religions' love them, they will help them to be better. I know. But as long as you trust yourself and what you feel about something (not what you think you feel, because it seems cool or something), you can't go wrong, since you are allowing yourself to be guided by the creator. Thats the way I see it.

I've gotta say though, I find it interesting that you ignored my comment about the origin of the word 'sham'. You brought it up, lets hear some rebuttal on that one! :p :D

Well I must say you sound like a nice person. Just be careful, thats all.

[the om]

Thanks, but I'm out... If you guys won't even consider that there could be some truth here, I'm kinda wasting my time... At least try and harbor an open mind if you come to threads like this please though...

[miracles]

Thanks, but I'm out... If you guys won't even consider that there could be some truth here, I'm kinda wasting my time... At least try and harbor an open mind if you come to threads like this please though...

WOW. What brought that on? I just said you sound like a nice person and be careful? Hey mate, non ebelivers high jack Christian and muslim hreads with their altrenate views and hate speech every minute of the day. If you cant stand the heat, it best to stay out of the kitchen. There are plenty of threads in here that address alternate views on spirtism etc, not in the religious threads. Whats the issue? When it comes to religion, there are many passionate die hard believers. Get used to it.

[tannah]

I just saw the similarities in the words. But I didnt need the dictionary to know shamanism is a sham and a shame. :D

Truth is you really don't know one way or the other. Isn't that right? "Pop" is the sound of illusion dissapating from brain cells and "aaaahhhhhhh" is the moment of reality.

One shouldn't be a pretender. Look at the people who have given positive opinions about Shamanism. Jolly nice bunch. The probably know far more than yourself about the study and practice of it.

It's not a dictionary one needs. It's the ability to know the heart.

[tannah]

Thanks, but I'm out... If you guys won't even consider that there could be some truth here, I'm kinda wasting my time... At least try and harbor an open mind if you come to threads like this please though...

Or hang around and help people like Miracles with their fear problem.

[miracles]

Truth is you really don't know one way or the other. Isn't that right? "Pop" is the sound of illusion dissapating from brain cells and "aaaahhhhhhh" is the moment of reality.

One shouldn't be a pretender. Look at the people who have given positive opinions about Shamanism. Jolly nice bunch. The probably know far more than yourself about the study and practice of it.

It's not a dictionary one needs. It's the ability to know the heart.


I hate the smug piety and self righeousness of christians



Much better to be a parrot eh man?


TO NOT BECOME CHRISTIAN OR EVEN CONSIDER WHAT CHRIST SAID


Yeah a lovely bunch. Your a trip.

[tannah]

With Love comes gifts and other abilities like understanding/discernment and inner peace. The gift of healing is one of them. With illusion comes disease.

And so things are always known by their fruits. So as a question I'd like to ask someone if they would kindly inform me about some of these "fruits" that shamanism has brought about.

[chris_com283]

I just saw the similarities in the words. But I didnt need the dictionary to know shamanism is a sham and a shame. :D
So basically you were talking out of your ass. Well at least you didn't seriously believe the crap you wrote. I'm wondering how you know shamanism is a sham. Have you looked into it in much detail?

[tannah]

Yeah a lovely bunch. Your a trip.

You don't think being a parrot is stealing the real experience potential within?

It is not lying to say I could easily write the expected responses from religious types that think reciting the same stuff is somehow the way. I like creative types, people that show that the stuff they've contemplated has born fruit within them.

And yes, I wouldn't say I hate it, but the smug self righteousness of many religious types is a shame/sham.:)

TO NOT BECOME CHRISTIAN OR EVEN CONSIDER WHAT CHRIST SAID

Mmmmmmm, I remember that well, from earlier today. Of course what led to that statement was her contact with the expression of christianity from those such as yourself. I can understand that kind of frustration, can you spare no compassion for seeing her point of view? Are you suggesting you play no role in helping to create such a statement from someone?

[miracles]

So basically you were talking out of your ass. Well at least you didn't seriously believe the crap you wrote. I'm wondering how you know shamanism is a sham. Have you looked into it in much detail?

Yeah basiscally, like everyone else around here, if you cant beat em join em huh?

Trances,drug taking, chanelling spirts (aka demons) pagan, etc. Thats what I think. The same as witchcraft. Obviously it' s gonna take some heat from a brain washed christian like me.

You tell me what it means? Ive already alienated myself from all the peace loving light workers on here so far they hate my guts. lol. Can you save me?

[miracles]

You don't think being a parrot is stealing the real experience potential within?

It is not lying to say I could easily write the expected responses from religious types that think reciting the same stuff is somehow the way. I like creative types, people that show that the stuff they've contemplated has born fruit within them.

And yes, I wouldn't say I hate it, but the smug self righteousness of many religious types is a shame/sham.:)



Mmmmmmm, I remember that well, from earlier today. Of course what led to that statement was her contact with the expression of christianity from those such as yourself. I can understand that kind of frustration, can you spare no compassion for seeing her point of view? Are you suggesting you play no role in helping to create such a statement from someone?

Dude since I joined here she has been busting in on anything I have to say and dropping steaming dumps, just like you. You reep what you sew. And if you run into an imoveable brick wall, your gonna get hurt, is that the walls fault? The truth is imoveable. I might do a little complilation for it for you if I can ever be bothered.

[tannah]

Dude since she joined here she has been busting in on anything I have to say and dropping steaming dumbs, just like you. You reep what you sew. And if you run into an imoveable brick wall, your gonna get hurt, is that the walls fault? The truth is imoveable. I might do a little complilation for it for you if I can ever be bothered.

I've heard it all before. Like I said - to the tune of Hound Dog by Elvis:

You ain't nuffin but a parrot
Squawking all the time


That isn't an insult. It's the truth about you and your self righteous attitude here, and probably in life as a whole.

As far as you are concerned, it seems you only come out to fight the dark forces man.

Constipation is deemed unmovable.

I don't think I'm a "steaming dumb dropper" at all Miracles. I just think I know your type. Yes, it is normally pointless conversing with people like you. Even the devils love their own, and you belong with your kind, because when you venture out and come to a forum like this there will be people here that expose your kind of narrow-minded rubbish.

No-one that I see hate's you. They dislike your dictum, you know, the speil that's been yapped and yakkety yakked for centuries like a good little parrot legion.

Christians that behave like you were number one centuries ago. It's tough for you now. All those like you will have left eventually is a sulky little mound of marytdom if you don't wake from your hipnotism. Parroting does that.

Just like you won't budge from your own truth, then I won't make it easy for your type , because I'm a spiritual Dawkins dude:D I know the harm your vibe does, to yourself and all around you. If I didn't care I'd put you on ignore.

[miracles]

LOL, youve heard it all before HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Here are some posts from your mate Dances with demons along the lines of what you have just typed, you just cant hold back for long, you where doing okay for a day trying to at least be a little bit pleasant. Out of the heart the mouth speaks.



Former fundamentalist pastor concludes that
Jesus is the Sun:


Then again, maybe the Bible is actually inspired by Satan.

What better way to fool all of mankind than to destroy the knowledge of any real creator or spirit through worshiping some lying vengeful deity who insists on ignorance and the slaughter of the innocent to propitiate its bloodlust...


lucifer" as satan was an invention of the Poet Milton.....

In fact the Lucifer is Jesus Christ..the bright and morning star..

Revelation to John 22:16
Time present: I, Jesus am Lucifer..

Christians are actually Satanists

It is clear that the God of the old testament is also Satan..
In Isa 45:7 he says he creates evil...in other verses he admits sending lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets..(1Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22)
God is satan..when HE causes David to number Israel.

this is cut and dried.

Ever notice that people resemble the god they worship?

SO Given the behavior of the God of the Bible, what exactly is "dark" about satan?

I don't recall hearing him mass murder anybody, i don't recall him exhorting people to smash infants heads against the rocks the way biblegod does..(as i have said before though they are actually one and the same many times)

1 plus 1 can equal zero IF i am working in Modulo 2.

The fact that you think that Ivan Panin's work is "irrefutable" is just evidence that you do not understand probability.

I can cherry pick the bible too to support whatever view i want

Ivan Panin's "irrefutable proof" is largely the result of cherry picking data...

According to the cluckulator:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

Is 28% evil and 72% good..whatever that means

In order to produce these patterns, they modified the text using the many variant readings that appear in old manuscripts. In addition to this deliberate cooking of the data, they presented some of the vast number of features of 7 that appear in any text by pure chance. "

edited to add:
I hope you forgive me if i appear brusque , i deeply dislike bible numerics material, i find it deeply offensive, especially when it is presented as "irrefutable proof"..perhaps i need to sit down and look at my conditioning and figure out which buttons that is pushing.

You are not winning anyone to Christ with your obnoxious posts that is for certain....and you appear to be typical.
In your fervor to "win arguments" by namecalling, backbiting, and other things prohibited by the epistles, you might consider what effect you are having on hearts and minds.

Good job miracles...

way to win hearts and minds eh miracles?

By belittling me and the mathematician that wrote those articles, you may make yourself feel better temporarily, but you are definitely hurting the cause of Christ because you cannot control your ego.

It is very obvious that you are not trying to win anybody to Christ, in fact you are hurting his cause...if you do not like that, tough luck.
you might want to try actually picking up your cross daily working out your salvation in fear and trembling,instead of just talking about being saved..

Annoying people who actually can do mathematics with mathematical nonsense, SHOULD be a criminal offence.

It is not enough that they actually tax people like that with the Lottery.
We actually have comedic books about people like Panin put out by the Cambridge Press..everyone in math circles knows about it... at least everyone who gets the AMA journals...pretty close to everyone.

You have been egocetrically going on and on about how you have "irrefutable proof" with Ivan Panin, which is highly offensive to people with any kind of mathematical knowledge.

I posted this thread to call you on it, because it is offensive to mathematicians and you are browbeating people with it.
Knock it off.

The truth is that your personal experience and how you act with pother peope tellme if you actually know anything worth knowing.
Please get to know the real Christ...and stop this crap..okay

I looked at Panin's work realized almost immediately that it was nonsense, when you have done enough work in an area you can spot these kinds of things..."going to the pool room", so you must have seen "The Castle".
....slogging through that kind of nonsense has got to be some kind of punishment.

Locked up in chains...LOLOLOL
you do have an active fantasy life dontcha?

Sorry i bruised your widdle.

Mathematicians are alot of things but hardly elite, mostly we don't get invited to parties and no one sends us the memos...i don't know where you get your disinformation or your axe to grind against any kind of knowledge...

Oh that's right, the whole Bible from the very beginning is a diatribe against KNOWLEDGE, in fact that LUDDITE (look it up) thread runs throughout the Bible first to last..

"secular" education, wow there is an oxymoron.
"Evolution is a lie"..
Well i happen to believe neither creationism or evolution is correct, but that is probably because i have been subjected to the evils of critical thinking..and every vain philosophy which exalts itself...err whatever.

Have fun, and thanks for all the fish.


He'll Fuck You Up" (He being biblegod )

that's okay, it is more fun watching you all fall on your swords

Well,let's put it this way...Lucifer does seem to have some good points.Like i have said before, How many genocides have been committed in his name? How many book burnings? How many burnings at the stake...how many kids molested ...none?

Actually the Bible, in fact JESUS HIMSELF says that you can have eternal life by selling all you have and giving the money to the poor.

Yes Christians are sadomasochists. I was looking for (and can't find in my bookmarks) the story about this saint who used to NOT wash, and cinched a belt about his middle so tightly that the flesh started rotting and was crawling with maggots.

"Similarly my god is a militant black lesbian Jewish Communist. This projection of God or ‘definition’ of God is a quite separate issue to the issue of the existence of a Creator."

No, i think Christian God/Satan are one and the same...

I have been trying to say that this is WHO the elites also worship, same God of the Christians/Jews, it is just that the Christians and Jews can't see that.

They do not understand that by their worship they are empowering the god of the elites that is keeping humanity enslaved in chains of darkness(ignorance). We are in fact the "Angels (of light)" who kept not our first estate.

Lucifer is a whole different kettle of fish and has nothing to do with the christian god/satan, and more with Prometheus

Christianity itself is the Antichrist speaking the blasphemous things.

For some reason it is acceptable for you to be offensive and tell other people that they are worshipping demons, and are sinners and are going to burn in hell forever...because you think you are telling the Truth.

Apparently you are not very good at taking your own medicine.

You expect behavior of others that you cannot comply with yourself.


There is a word for that, but i am not going to say it.

I did not get my information from any 'truth movement' but from reading and doing word studies and thinking about things instead of swallowing what others told me to believe whole cloth.

The christian church is the Antichrist, the truth hurts

IResponse to the logical fallacy of "he wasn't a real christian"..

posted for educational entertainment purposes....

Hail Sat...... err i mean Reason
HEHEHEHEHEHEH

Most christian priests and pastors are gay?

I have had MANY gay friends and not a single one of them was remotely attracted to children...whereas i have had many christian acquaintances whom i cannot say the same thing about.


the divorce rate for most "christians" is higher than the divorce rate of secular people, and the amount of adultery is higher too...currently trying to find that article

There was an actual academic paper that showed that in fact evangelicals in the US were much less moral than their liberal or secular counterparts.
I will find that paper eventually but there are other resources..

Here we go..

Fundies have the Top Divorce Rate.
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/evange...p_Divorce_Rate (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/evangelical_ath/Christianity_Does_Not_Work_as_Advertised.htm#Fundi es_Have_The_Top_Divorce_Rate)

Evengelicals are Habitual Liars:

in fact CHRISTIANITY corrupts good morals:
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/evange...ts_Good_Morals (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/evangelical_ath/Christianity_Does_Not_Work_as_Advertised.htm#Chris tianity_Corrupts_Good_Morals)


So all you two can do is speak bible gibberish?

But you wonder why the world is so messed up?


The christians claim to be fighting evil and satan, and they get attacked by "demons" to prove they are on "God's side"...but it is interesting how this "God" seems to enjoy and encourage their suffering and does very little in the way of actually helping them.

I have often wondered WHY it is that "angels" seem to appear before tragic situations occur, prophesying to the faithful impending personal harm that these angels do not mitigate.

Maybe this "God" of theirs is a massive thoughtform that literally sucks souls into it, keeping people from the actual Creator of spirits....that most likely did not make this prison universe...maybe all the energy you feed this thing, not only depletes your energy, but means you will lose your soul when you die and only the stripped naked spark of awareness of the spirit itself gets recycled to grow a new soul..

Keep the sparks imprisoned, use them to grow new souls, then harvest the energy.




Unless a corn of wheat falls to the ground and dies...says the "Good Shepherd".

What do shepherd DO to sheep?

(and this only up to page three of 12.)

[tannah]

What's that about Love not keeping a record of "wrongs"? You really don't do too bad yourself you know. And yes, I've met plenty of your type throughout my many years. You don't approach people on an even keel, because somehow you have to view others as under Satan's influence if they don't agree with your belief system. There is nothing closer to self righteousness than that. It also insures that the first insult is usually from people like you, although I can well believe you'll never see it that way.

All in all Miralces, you are an amazingly hipocritical spiirt, self justified and not a pleasure to converse with. But that's ok, not all meetings have to be pleasurable.

So, what are you trying to say anyway? Can you back up why Shamanism is such a dreadful thing, before you burn it at the stake with the usual "cross of Jesus"?

[tannah]

Let me also ask you about this Miracles:


"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)

If God commanded you to cut off the head of a child what would you do?

[miracles]

Let me also ask you about this Miracles:



If God commanded you to cut off the head of a child what would you do?

Id say I cant do that Lord, but Tannah will.

Or I'd say, I cant do that Lord, but I'll cut Tannahs head off for a tenner.

[tannah]

Id say I cant do that Lord, but Tannah will.

Or I'd say, I cant do that Lord, but I'll cut Tannahs head off for a tenner.

Precisely. I'd say you can't be the Lord if you are asking such a thing.
In both your examples you are condoning murder.

[miracles]

[quote=tannah;1199452]What's that about Love not keeping a record of "wrongs"? quote]

Oh so your saying it's a record of wrongs are you? Thanks for that. There is somebody home.

[miracles]

Precisely. I'd say you can't be the Lord if you are asking such a thing.
In both your examples you are condoning murder.

Actually your heads cut already. Scratch the second one.

[tannah]

[quote=tannah;1199452]What's that about Love not keeping a record of "wrongs"? quote]

Oh so your saying it's a record of wrongs are you? Thanks for that. There is somebody home.

No I put the word in parenthesis, because you are the one saying it is a record of wrongs.

[tannah]

Actually your heads cut already. Scratch the second one.

Actually, it took just two posts to show what illusion is in your mind.

[miracles]

Actually, it took just two posts to show what illusion is in your mind.


Well done doctor Dr, what do I owe you?

[miracles]

[quote=miracles;1199537]

No I put the word in parenthesis, because you are the one saying it is a record of wrongs.

Um nah, you posted it not "me". But I put that in parenthesis, so I didnt really say that either?

Tell me something else you know about me this is fun?

[tannah]

Well done doctor Dr, what do I owe you?

You make it so easy, sadly. It's what you owe yourself that matters now.
Reflect on that if you choose to.

[miracles]

You make it so easy, sadly. It's what you owe yourself that matters now.
Reflect on that if you choose to.

Lord I pray for Tannah that you will bless he/she/it with peace, happiness, and the joy of salvation, in Jesus name amen, Oh and give me patience, but hurry.

Oh and forgive me in advance for praying in public before I get accused of being a hypocrite again by the unconscious one

Nite nite. :)

[tannah]

Lord I pray for Tannah that you will bless he/she/it with peace, happiness, and the joy of salvation, in Jesus name amen, Oh and give me patience, but hurry.

Oh and forgive me in advance for praying in public before I get accused of being a hypocrite again by the unconscious one

Nite nite. :)

S'Up? No one offer you a tenner for Tannah's head?

You're doing no more than praying to a self justified ego identity you have nurtured thinking it to be the real thing. Haven't we all been there? You CAN do something about that.

[miracles]

S'Up? No one offer you a tenner for Tannah's head?

You're doing no more than praying to a self justified ego identity you have nurtured thinking it to be the real thing. Haven't we all been there? You CAN do something about that.

What the lord doesn't answer your prayers? Not surprised.

What can I do about it? Learn manisfestation techniques from "The Secret"?

Ive got a secret for you, its not a secret, it' s all in the bible.

[armoured_amazon]

Oh and forgive me in advance for praying in public before I get accused of being a hypocrite again

LOL :D


What the lord doesn't answer your prayers? Not surprised.

What can I do about it? Learn manisfestation techniques from "The Secret"?

Ive got a secret for you, its not a secret, it' s all in the bible.

Indeed!

I had a nice little sign from our Creator the other day. It's good to be reminded from time to time. :)

[miracles]

LOL :D




Indeed!

I had a nice little sign from our Creator the other day. It's good to be reminded from time to time. :)

Awesome. :) What was it? (if thats not too personal, if it is cool)

[armoured_amazon]

Awesome. :) What was it? (if thats not too personal, if it is cool)

Heh, I forget now, I was sitting in a waiting room and it was about 4 random things that, in their togetherness, were not random. In the space of a minute, it was like 'bam, bam, bam, bam!'

I'm going to have my coffee and try to remember them, I have short term memory like mud.

:o

Good thing was, it clearly answered something I was wondering about, which was if my actions at the time were in accordance with God's will or not.

:)

[miracles]

Heh, I forget now, I was sitting in a waiting room and it was about 4 random things that, in their togetherness, were not random. In the space of a minute, it was like 'bam, bam, bam, bam!'

I'm going to have my coffee and try to remember them, I have short term memory like mud.

:o

Good thing was, it clearly answered something I was wondering about, which was if my actions at the time were in accordance with God's will or not.

:)

Cool. :)

[tannah]

What the lord doesn't answer your prayers?

The answer might surprise you, and other smug people that think God is
owned by them only.

[miracles]

The answer might surprise you, and other smug people that think God is
owned by them only.

Bro, nobody owns God.

[stfd]

Murder people? HUH?

What are you talking about?

I am talking about gifts handed down through family lines...my grandmother had them and guess what?
She had a very close relationship to Christ..

... A witch or one who does withcraft,magic or anything ocult can't be in any "relationship" with God.
Those "powers" arent those handed over by God nor they are performed with the help of God, nor they are "endorsed" by God.

Guess who's hand is in it then? or tail... wink wink ^ ^

[armoured_amazon]

... A witch or one who does withcraft,magic or anything ocult can't be in any "relationship" with God.
Those "powers" arent those handed over by God nor they are performed with the help of God, nor they are "endorsed" by God.

Guess who's hand is in it then? or tail... wink wink ^ ^

Totally.

[tannah]

... A witch or one who does withcraft,magic or anything ocult can't be in any "relationship" with God.
Those "powers" arent those handed over by God nor they are performed with the help of God, nor they are "endorsed" by God.

Guess who's hand is in it then? or tail... wink wink ^ ^

Idiotic thing to say really, when all is taken into account. Just a few a parroted opinions.

[armoured_amazon]

Idiotic thing to say really, when all is taken into account. Just a few a parroted opinions.

Not idiotic at all. Some of us have had a lifetime of experience to draw our opinions from. We just don't fap about it on forums, that's all.

[miracles]

Not idiotic at all. Some of us have had a lifetime of experience to draw our opinions from. We just don't fap about it on forums, that's all.
+1

[tannah]

Not idiotic at all. Some of us have had a lifetime of experience to draw our opinions from. We just don't fap about it on forums, that's all.

Well instead of merely procliaming it, how about a nice dissertation backing up the comments?

You have heard of a sacred cow I take it.

[stfd]

Idiotic thing to say really, when all is taken into account. Just a few a parroted opinions.

Heh if you would only know...
Quite a few years ago when i was quite a lil kid i actually saw something, something quite disturbing.
And i saw this one thing out of pure "randomness" wasn't planned , in fact there were "failsafes" in place so that i or any other kids could not see it.

So here goes:

I was about 12, i think i was grade six and my class was taken on a 2 day trip which included an overnight stop to a monastery up in the mountains.
The word there was that a young girl was brought by her family to be see by one of the very very old monks as she was possesed in part due to witchcraft interference.
No i KNOW what i saw and with the eye of a child; likely if i were to see it today i would be a lot more shocked than i was then.
TRUST what i say , what we saw i ANY damned movie was child's play compared to what happened there.

good luck to you

[tannah]

Heh if you would only know...
Quite a few years ago when i was quite a lil kid i actually saw something, something quite disturbing.
And i saw this one thing out of pure "randomness" wasn't planned , in fact there were "failsafes" in place so that i or any other kids could not see it.

So here goes:

I was about 12, i think i was grade six and my class was taken on a 2 day trip which included an overnight stop to a monastery up in the mountains.
The word there was that a young girl was brought by her family to be see by one of the very very old monks as she was possesed in part due to witchcraft interference.
No i KNOW what i saw and with the eye of a child; likely if i were to see it today i would be a lot more shocked than i was then.
TRUST what i say , what we saw i ANY damned movie was child's play compared to what happened there.

good luck to you


stfd, only an unprepared fool would meddle with real energies. That's why Solomon mastered it with authority first. I got news for you, the Spice Girls gave music a bad name.:D

[stfd]

stfd, only an unprepared fool would meddle with real energies. That's why Solomon mastered it with authority first. I got news for you, the Spice Girls gave music a bad name.:D

Aaahh ok so youre saying that the spice girls of ocultism give a bad name to real,capable,professional ocultists.
Fair enough... but that doesnt change the fact that such 'thing' as magic or anything ocult is purely evil by its nature.

And has absolutely nothing to do with God in any way or fashion.

As for Solomon, well he was alright untill his mind and heart got twisted by the egyptian sweetheart.
He screwed up very badly by allowing that to happen.
He basically freely gave away the relationship with God for the relationship with the pretty witch.

[tannah]

Aaahh ok so youre saying that the spice girls of ocultism give a bad name to real,capable,professional ocultists.
Fair enough... but that doesnt change the fact that such 'thing' as magic or anything ocult is purely evil by its nature.



Better get the scaffolding up, wood laid around it, and start burning a few practicers then.

[stfd]

Better get the scaffolding up, wood laid around it, and start burning a few practicers then.

Why would i do such thing?

It would make no sense whatsoever for me to engage in such an action.











In other words, i really dont give 2 s%*ts.


Only when individuals come forth and state ridiculous stuff such as - some ocult is good or some magic is "white" or whitchcraft is from God - i get pissed.

[tannah]

Why would i do such thing?

It would make no sense whatsoever for me to engage in such an action.











In other words, i really dont give 2 s%*ts.


Only when individuals come forth and state ridiculous stuff such as - some ocult is good or some magic is "white" or whitchcraft is from God - i get pissed.

Yes, that's because the laws aren't in your favour anymore. But when the church was the law it administered its narrow-minded bigotry quite succesfully and murdered many people. At times people would have you burnt as a witch purely out of jealousy, and not even becuase the person being burnt was practicing witchcraft.

I've never been interested in this witchcraft thing. I can only go by the vibe that some of the people who talk positively about it give. Just like I go by your vibes and mentality towards things.

[stfd]

Yes, that's because the laws aren't in your favour anymore. But when the church was the law it administered its narrow-minded bigotry quite succesfully and murdered many people. At times people would have you burnt as a witch purely out of jealousy, and not even becuase the person being burnt was practicing witchcraft.

I've never been interested in this witchcraft thing. I can only go by the vibe that some of the people who talk positively about it give. Just like I go by your vibes and mentality towards things.

Look...
i really dont care about what the "church" as in the "institution" did ,does ar will do.
Also PLEASE understand that it wasn't the faith which did those things and who does it today!
I t was people damit !
people like you and i - P E O P L E.
Yes they were wearing priestly robes, carried Crosses in they hands and were followed by all that fancy shamancy stuff.
But please - TRY and discern between an act of pure evil beneath the apparent protection of ones status and circumstance and Faith.

One who does such things CANNOT possibly be in the way for which the Faith stands.
Perhaps he isn't what he says he is after all.
Perhaps he is a fraud , wouldnt you think?

[stfd]

Yes, that's because the laws aren't in your favour anymore. But when the church was the law it administered its narrow-minded bigotry quite succesfully and murdered many people. At times people would have you burnt as a witch purely out of jealousy, and not even becuase the person being burnt was practicing witchcraft.

I've never been interested in this witchcraft thing. I can only go by the vibe that some of the people who talk positively about it give. Just like I go by your vibes and mentality towards things.


"thou shalt not kill"

C L E A R statement !
Obvously those burning people on fires were going against this very basic LAW ! right ?

Well then - what is the conclussion - They were not that which were saying they were, pretty simple yes?

[armoured_amazon]

Well instead of merely procliaming it, how about a nice dissertation backing up the comments?

You have heard of a sacred cow I take it.

It's not important to me to win on teh net! I have bigger fish to fry. :rolleyes:

[marpat]

Those that fail the test develop schizophrenia (the so called Shaman's illness) and have to join esoteric masonry in order to have a support group which will protect them and allow them to function in society. In return they perpetuate the testing process on others.

From what I see of the world not many people pass the test. All these stars and celebrities are failed candidates who are testing the rest of society through the promotion of vice, avarice and general imbecility. This explains the reason for masonic involvement in paedophilia, prostitution and pornography, one reason is as a test, it is also used for blackmail and trauma based mind control.

Is it really necessary? It certainly isn't moral.

And you consider yourself to have passed? from your posts I seriously doubt it. For somebody who thinks they are a christian you certainly judge people a lot.

Dont forget that some of the greatest evils in this world have been carried out by christians in christs name and with the full blessing of the church. Lets not pretend that being a christian somehow makes you morally superior to anybody.

Have you got anything that proves what you claim?

[edelweiss pirate]

And you consider yourself to have passed? from your posts I seriously doubt it. For somebody who thinks they are a christian you certainly judge people a lot.

Dont forget that some of the greatest evils in this world have been carried out by christians in christs name and with the full blessing of the church. Lets not pretend that being a christian somehow makes you morally superior to anybody.

Have you got anything that proves what you claim?

I'm not a Christian. So you can put that cudgel away!

Anything that proves what I say? That's a meaningless question and you know it.

Why would any of the masons I knew want to testify against their own organisation?

Only a mason for whom lying is a way of life would accuse a forummer of lying.

Lies are your domain not mine. I'm reporting your post as we have a right to post information here without 'you people' trolling us.

[rapunzel]

Aaahh ok so youre saying that the spice girls of ocultism give a bad name to real,capable,professional ocultists.
Fair enough... but that doesnt change the fact that such 'thing' as magic or anything ocult is purely evil by its nature.

And has absolutely nothing to do with God in any way or fashion.

As for Solomon, well he was alright untill his mind and heart got twisted by the egyptian sweetheart.
He screwed up very badly by allowing that to happen.
He basically freely gave away the relationship with God for the relationship with the pretty witch.

But the God you are talking about is the God of the Hebrews, Yahweh, a very limited God compared with the real Creator of the Universe. A Being of such infinite power and wisdom and love of creation that your little Yahweh pales in comparison. The priests of Yahweh couldn't stand competition; they couldn't stand anyone taking their spiritual development into their own hands and actually contacting the Divine in their own way, so they outlawed any kind of witchcraft, shamanism etc as a threat to their own influence. Don't do it your way, do it our way or die.

That's one of the reasons I rejected orthodox religion because I can't trust anyone else with my spiritual development; no man or woman will tell me the way to God; no man or woman will tell me I may worship in that way but not the other way. They may advise me and give their opinion and guidance but I am free to accept or reject as appropriate.

It is a long and strange journey but it is mine and no-one else's and while I sometimes look for signposts I reserve the right to leave the well lit path and strike out for unknown destinations across the uncharted and unknown land and providing I harm none (including myself) and do not interfere with anyone else's free will the Gods will protect me.

[stfd]

But the God you are talking about is the God of the Hebrews, Yahweh, a very limited God compared with the real Creator of the Universe. A Being of such infinite power and wisdom and love of creation that your little Yahweh pales in comparison. The priests of Yahweh couldn't stand competition; they couldn't stand anyone taking their spiritual development into their own hands and actually contacting the Divine in their own way, so they outlawed any kind of witchcraft, shamanism etc as a threat to their own influence. Don't do it your way, do it our way or die.

That's one of the reasons I rejected orthodox religion because I can't trust anyone else with my spiritual development; no man or woman will tell me the way to God; no man or woman will tell me I may worship in that way but not the other way. They may advise me and give their opinion and guidance but I am free to accept or reject as appropriate.

It is a long and strange journey but it is mine and no-one else's and while I sometimes look for signposts I reserve the right to leave the well lit path and strike out for unknown destinations across the uncharted and unknown land and providing I harm none (including myself) and do not interfere with anyone else's free will the Gods will protect me.



"but I am free to accept or reject as appropriate"
Yes you are , we all are.

The God i am talking about is THE God.
God , simple as that.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit - that God and no other.
"Yahweh" is the jewish name for God. As God's name in english is "God" so is in jewish "Yahweh".
Is the same God as the one i'm saying and no other - why woould you say they are 2 different GodS?

[armoured_amazon]

I rejected orthodox religion because I can't trust anyone else with my spiritual development

+1

Hence, people trying to educate me on here is a waste of time.

[rapunzel]

"but I am free to accept or reject as appropriate"
Yes you are , we all are.

The God i am talking about is THE God.
God , simple as that.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit - that God and no other.
"Yahweh" is the jewish name for God. As God's name in english is "God" so is in jewish "Yahweh".
Is the same God as the one i'm saying and no other - why woould you say they are 2 different GodS?

"God" is not a name it is a title and comes from German "Gott". In Hebrew "El" is the word for God and Yahweh is one of his names. El was the Father God of the Canaanites from which some Israelite religion comes and Yahweh was one of his sons. You can see in this in one of the Psalms in which the Hebrew is quite clear. I'll look it up for you later if you want to know.

The Creator is unnameable and infinite. The Israelite Yahweh whom the Israelites arrogantly claimed to be the sole God and Creator is no such thing; he is simply what the Israelites imagined the True God to be. They were wrong.

Must go, time for bed.

[armoured_amazon]

"God" is not a name it is a title and comes from German "Gott". In Hebrew "El" is the word for God and Yahweh is one of his names. El was the Father God of the Canaanites from which some Israelite religion comes and Yahweh was one of his sons. You can see in this in one of the Psalms in which the Hebrew is quite clear. I'll look it up for you later if you want to know.

The Creator is unnameable and infinite. The Israelite Yahweh whom the Israelites arrogantly claimed to be the sole God and Creator is no such thing; he is simply what the Israelites imagined the True God to be. They were wrong.

Must go, time for bed.

In calling something unnameable and infinite, we've given it two names already. I think you're splitting hairs.

[marpat]

I'm not a Christian. So you can put that cudgel away!

Anything that proves what I say? That's a meaningless question and you know it.

Why would any of the masons I knew want to testify against their own organisation?

Only a mason for whom lying is a way of life would accuse a forummer of lying.

Lies are your domain not mine. I'm reporting your post as we have a right to post information here without 'you people' trolling us.

You can report it but I dont think I am breaking any rules. I have a right to give my opinion on any subject so stop crying.

[marpat]

"God" is not a name it is a title and comes from German "Gott". In Hebrew "El" is the word for God and Yahweh is one of his names. El was the Father God of the Canaanites from which some Israelite religion comes and Yahweh was one of his sons. You can see in this in one of the Psalms in which the Hebrew is quite clear. I'll look it up for you later if you want to know.

The Creator is unnameable and infinite. The Israelite Yahweh whom the Israelites arrogantly claimed to be the sole God and Creator is no such thing; he is simply what the Israelites imagined the True God to be. They were wrong.

Must go, time for bed.

The Egyptians also had a moon god called jah. Perhaps this is the root of the Hebrew god.

[edelweiss pirate]

You can report it but I dont think I am breaking any rules. I have a right to give my opinion on any subject so stop crying.

I merely object to insincerity. How about you prove you're sincere, on second thoughts keep it! a soldier boy who loves Crowley! What have you got to prove? How potty you are? I'm sold!

Night. I ain't arguing no more. Post what ever dissing bullshit you want. I'm out!

[miracles]

Yes, that's because the laws aren't in your favour anymore. But when the church was the law it administered its narrow-minded bigotry quite succesfully and murdered many people. At times people would have you burnt as a witch purely out of jealousy, and not even becuase the person being burnt was practicing witchcraft.

I've never been interested in this witchcraft thing. I can only go by the vibe that some of the people who talk positively about it give. Just like I go by your vibes and mentality towards things.

You need to read foxes book of martyres to get a handle on who was getting burned and killed bro, it was people who would not reject or recant the gospel, 10,000,000 through out history, show me a history book that can show 10,000,000 witches where killed? There are laws against paedohillia, that doesn't stop the satanic catholic church, they are still all powerful.

[tannah]

It's not important to me to win on teh net! I have bigger fish to fry. :rolleyes:

Well quite honestly I'd rather you didn't keep chiming in saying people are wrong about something, if it ain't important to you to qualify your statements. In other words, you could always leave the whole thing alone and fry your fish instead. Sounds like a load of cod anyway.

[mayorofcydonia]

None of yous have a clue.

http://transcendpolarisation.webs.com/abrahamthesumerian.htm

http://transcendpolarisation.webs.com/secretsofgnostisism.htm

[tannah]

None of yous have a clue.

http://transcendpolarisation.webs.com/abrahamthesumerian.htm

http://transcendpolarisation.webs.com/secretsofgnostisism.htm

I've read four Sitchin books, my soul mate lady friend is an expert in Sumerian stuff, and I've learnt plenty from her. I've also read a large amount of gnostic texts. How do you mean "we" don't have a clue? Just skimmed your two links. Little new stuff there. But I'd definately recommend researching it. Will probably be a waste of breath for those waiting for a nice rapture to come along.

[armoured_amazon]

Well quite honestly I'd rather you didn't keep chiming in saying people are wrong about something, if it ain't important to you to qualify your statements. In other words, you could always leave the whole thing alone and fry your fish instead. Sounds like a load of cod anyway.

Well, quite honestly, I find your inflated self-importance irksome.

[tannah]

Well, quite honestly, I find your inflated self-importance irksome.

Garbage. You must have a screw loose somewhere darlin. You've been giving +1 to the over inflated self rightoeus egos for over a week now. Try again.

[miracles]

Garbage. You must have a screw loose somewhere darlin. You've been giving +1 to the over inflated self rightoeus egos for over a week now. Try again.

Armoured Amazon is one of the few that's clued up mate.

[tannah]

Armoured Amazon is one of the few that's clued up mate.

We have to figure that out by ourselves, and what comes at us. So far she's someone who says "well you're wrong" and thinks she's above explaining why, and with a fob off comment about me not being "open".

Honestly dudes, I've had a great musical evening conversing with real honest people, and come back to pathetic christian mind games. I thought maybe you'd have more to you than that.

if you're that clued up AA then stop the garbage, either say something and qualify it, or just be cool and we'll ignore each other. I ain't up for being made to feel "unopen" about things.

[the om]

Thanks, but I'm out... If you guys won't even consider that there could be some truth here, I'm kinda wasting my time... At least try and harbor an open mind if you come to threads like this please though...

Uuuuhhhh.... I'm gonna be honest, I didn't post that... I'm pretty sure it was my cousin... Sorry all... I'm back though!

I was thinking about this, and if you should right about the idea that Shamanism / the Occult in general is from satan, wouldn't the best use of it be not to ignore it, but to use it for good? (like, to heal? It would literally be breaking the system down from the inside.)

And I'm gonna be honest... I flat out don't understand the idea of being able to sell your soul. For me it just doesn't work. Like, I've found myself in situations that led me to think that I was doing something wrong and 'selling' my soul, but when I looked into it deeper I realized it was nothing but a ploy to get me to live in fear. Nothing more. The soul cannot be owned by any but yourself. It is free. I mean, the idea of owning the soul is even more ridiculous than proclaiming that you own this certain portion of the earth, not nature or mother Gaia. Can you see what I mean?

[tannah]

Uuuuhhhh.... I'm gonna be honest, I didn't post that... I'm pretty sure it was my cousin... Sorry all... I'm back though!

I was thinking about this, and if you should right about the idea that Shamanism / the Occult in general is from satan, wouldn't the best use of it be not to ignore it, but to use it for good? (like, to heal? It would literally be breaking the system down from the inside.)

And I'm gonna be honest... I flat out don't understand the idea of being able to sell your soul. For me it just doesn't work. Like, I've found myself in situations that led me to think that I was doing something wrong and 'selling' my soul, but when I looked into it deeper I realized it was nothing but a ploy to get me to live in fear. Nothing more. The soul cannot be owned by any but yourself. It is free. I mean, the idea of owning the soul is even more ridiculous than proclaiming that you own this certain portion of the earth, not nature or mother Gaia. Can you see what I mean?


That's a great insight. Because nothing is "from satan", it's either a direct contact with reality or with one of our fears and illusions.

[miracles]

We have to figure that out by ourselves, and what comes at us. So far she's someone who says "well you're wrong" and thinks she's above explaining why, and with a fob off comment about me not being "open".

Honestly dudes, I've had a great musical evening conversing with real honest people, and come back to pathetic christian mind games. I thought maybe you'd have more to you than that.

if you're that clued up AA then stop the garbage, either say something and qualify it, or just be cool and we'll ignore each other. I ain't up for being made to feel "unopen" about things.

It's because she is clued up, she doesn't get into pathetic discussions with aniti-christ trolls who clearly hate christians and christianity, why bother? which means she is more clued up than me too. Which isnt hard as you know. :D

Honestly dude why did you come back in ere and ruin a good night out? Becuase you love it! I bet you couldn't wait to get back.

[miracles]

Uuuuhhhh.... I'm gonna be honest, I didn't post that... I'm pretty sure it was my cousin... Sorry all... I'm back though!

I was thinking about this, and if you should right about the idea that Shamanism / the Occult in general is from satan, wouldn't the best use of it be not to ignore it, but to use it for good? (like, to heal? It would literally be breaking the system down from the inside.)

And I'm gonna be honest... I flat out don't understand the idea of being able to sell your soul. For me it just doesn't work. Like, I've found myself in situations that led me to think that I was doing something wrong and 'selling' my soul, but when I looked into it deeper I realized it was nothing but a ploy to get me to live in fear. Nothing more. The soul cannot be owned by any but yourself. It is free. I mean, the idea of owning the soul is even more ridiculous than proclaiming that you own this certain portion of the earth, not nature or mother Gaia. Can you see what I mean?

Yes I can see what you mean, hey man, if you can heal people, thats got to be a special gift.

[the om]

Yes I can see what you mean, hey man, if you can heal people, thats got to be a special gift.

Exactly! But now my question is, if you believe that something like Shamanism was founded by the devil, can it still be used for healing, and for carrying out the divine plan?
I believe it can, because like I said, its a tool (I know you didn't like this analogy, but I'm stickin by it :p ). And regardless of who made the tool, it can be used for either good or bad purposes. It just depends on your intention.

[miracles]

Exactly! But now my question is, if you believe that something like Shamanism was founded by the devil, can it still be used for healing, and for carrying out the divine plan?
I believe it can, because like I said, its a tool (I know you didn't like this analogy, but I'm stickin by it :p ). And regardless of who made the tool, it can be used for either good or bad purposes. It just depends on your intention.

If you can steel a tool out of a bad mans tool shed and use it for good, the moral dilema would be; is stealing okay?

I am open to anyone with a gift of healing people for it to be a gift from God unless of course the healer knows otherwise. If he knows otherwise, then thats a personal decision. If he doesn't now otherwise and he is healing people out of the goodness of is heart, is he excused fo worng doing, I dont know. "whilst we where still sinners Christ died for us"

The and sorcerers/magicians(shamans?, dont know) coveted Jesus healing abilities, and sought him out for it so they could use it for gain and prestige, did he give it to them?. No.

[tannah]

It's because she is clued up, she doesn't get into pathetic discussions with aniti-christ trolls who clearly hate christians and christianity, why bother? which means she is more clued up than me too. Which isnt hard as you know. :D

Honestly dude why did you come back in ere and ruin a good night out? Becuase you love it! I bet you couldn't wait to get back.

Dude there's no point in spilling perfectly good energy on male and female clowns. You are both not open, yet accuse me of such, then go on to show just how unopen you are.

You can't discuss anything , and your "anti-christ troll" comment should be pointed directly at you in the way you behave.

[stfd]

Dude there's no point in spilling perfectly good energy on male and female clowns. You are both not open, yet accuse me of such, then go on to show just how unopen you are.

You can't discuss anything , and your "anti-christ troll" comment should be pointed directly at you in the way you behave.

When it comes to being 'open' or 'unopen' one can only go so far.
I for example, am open to extent to which my faith and belief stays untouched.

You gotta understand that it is how some people feel, they feel that in them.
Aditionally an overly 'openness' is equivalent to 'denial', which in itself represents a rejection of that which one IS at that point.
Therefore i for example, can't be extremelly 'open' because that would mean to deliberatelly deny that which i am and for which i stand.

As conclusion, a christian can't be 'open' to the extent to which he is almost rejecting some or most of the basic principles of Christianity.

Your 'open' vs 'unopen' post makes no sense to me.


-1

[tannah]

When it comes to being 'open' or 'unopen' one can only go so far.
I for example, am open to extent to which my faith and belief stays untouched.

You gotta understand that it is how some people feel, they feel that in them.
Aditionally an overly 'openness' is equivalent to 'denial', which in itself represents a rejection of that which one IS at that point.
Therefore i for example, can't be extremelly 'open' because that would mean to deliberatelly deny that which i am and for which i stand.

As conclusion, a christian can't be 'open' to the extent to which he is almost rejecting some or most of the basic principles of Christianity.

Your 'open' vs 'unopen' post makes no sense to me.


-1

Precisely. Were you the one that gave AA a +1 for her comments to me about being wrong and not worth explaining why because I was so unopen?

You "christians" are up each other's butt. After a few weeks of observing it is obvious your main role is to stifle anything you deem non-christian. Because I'm pretty sure you don't come here thinking you'll convert someone.

I can understand why some people get fed up and leave.

Where does "overly" come from? Was it mentioned by me?

And identifying with a particular faith is your problem, not mine. If you identify with it to the extent you can't reason anymore, then we are not talking about being open to any extent anymore. Faith is meant to lead to the light, not become a way of thinking you must be right and everything else is satan/anti-christ and all that rubbish. If text has saved someone then they are dilluding themselves.

As far as christianity is concerned it is no longer dealing with the depths of reality. This can be proved by the many comments made even on this forum.
It can be proved by the lopsided views of its proponents who approach people assuming those people are on a lower standing for not having the christian faith. Don't tell me that is what a christian must do, or else why be a christian? You'll really have missed the point. Be a human and stay open to reason.

As far as shamanism is concerned, and dealing with healing, all things lead ultimately to God, because God creates all things. Like theOm said, it's how we deal with these energies that matters. And personally how the christians here are dealing with their faith is more self righteous than an actual service to others. You no longer "wash the feet of your brothers", but use your faith as a self righteous pedestal. For a christian to say "it ain't worth explaining, you're too unopen" is a totally blind comment. If I were that person I'd re-examine their faith. Especially since what led that person to that comment was based on accurate discriptions of that faith by others.

So yes your brownie points and assumptions of the truth are shallow.
Jesus would be a creepy shaman with strange healing gifts to you nowadays. God to you has to make your egos feel better, feel saved, quote lines of text, feel superior, you might explain you might not, depends if that person is worth it..blah blah.

This isn't an angry post, so don't throw that one back at me. You can reply and tell me how it is, be as stern as you like. But if you're here promoting a particular faith, and can't even live by it, that really sucks.

A faith that practically condemns the majority of mankind to eternal damnation sucks. It needs to be scrutinized, and those who believe in that faith need to defend it with reason.

Have a nice day bro.

[rowan22]

Religions do not have a monopoly on, or an absolute right to prescribe how a human being connects with the universe. If religion has any legitimacy at all, it rests upon its acceptance of human beings as we are.

Prescriptions which seek to negate any....any aspect of human experience are bogus. Jesus Christ was a man, no more no less. He was a spiritually evolved man, but a man none the less.

The currents of universal power he drew upon have existed since the universe was formed. You'll notice I say formed because that is what happened. The universe formed from the physical structure of the previous universe. This whole cycle repeats itself again and again and we are challenged to look within ourselves and out into the cosmos until such a time as the sense of separateness diminishes and disappears.

Shaman and Witches and Christians and Muslims and Buddhists it makes no difference. They are labels which we either transcend in being human, or we languish in some backwater yoked to their authority until the universe whispers or shouts to make yourself and itself known to us.

Being 100% ourselves is only the start of the journey. You have try to be at ease with your deepest self even if that means you are not at ease with yourself!

Honest acceptance means owning those aspects of ourselves which are easily defined into repression by those who fear a whole experience of themselves. They seek to personify their own very human flaws into an external figure of "evil".

Lucifer/Satan is no more than a metaphor. It is the clumsy immature way cultures have sought to abdicate responsibility for their own actions,feelings and existence.

Some people fear the implications of the fact that Shaman and in fact anyone can be powerful and spiritual and have no need of an intermediary to sanctify their connection to the creative spirit of the universe.

[stfd]

Precisely. Were you the one that gave AA a +1 for her comments to me about being wrong and not worth explaining why because I was so unopen?

You "christians" are up each other's butt. After a few weeks of observing it is obvious your main role is to stifle anything you deem non-christian. Because I'm pretty sure you don't come here thinking you'll convert someone.

I can understand why some people get fed up and leave.

Where does "overly" come from? Was it mentioned by me?

And identifying with a particular faith is your problem, not mine. If you identify with it to the extent you can't reason anymore, then we are not talking about being open to any extent anymore. Faith is meant to lead to the light, not become a way of thinking you must be right and everything else is satan/anti-christ and all that rubbish. If text has saved someone then they are dilluding themselves.

As far as christianity is concerned it is no longer dealing with the depths of reality. This can be proved by the many comments made even on this forum.
It can be proved by the lopsided views of its proponents who approach people assuming those people are on a lower standing for not having the christian faith. Don't tell me that is what a christian must do, or else why be a christian? You'll really have missed the point. Be a human and stay open to reason.

As far as shamanism is concerned, and dealing with healing, all things lead ultimately to God, because God creates all things. Like theOm said, it's how we deal with these energies that matters. And personally how the christians here are dealing with their faith is more self righteous than an actual service to others. You no longer "wash the feet of your brothers", but use your faith as a self righteous pedestal. For a christian to say "it ain't worth explaining, you're too unopen" is a totally blind comment. If I were that person I'd re-examine their faith. Especially since what led that person to that comment was based on accurate discriptions of that faith by others.

So yes your brownie points and assumptions of the truth are shallow.
Jesus would be a creepy shaman with strange healing gifts to you nowadays. God to you has to make your egos feel better, feel saved, quote lines of text, feel superior, you might explain you might not, depends if that person is worth it..blah blah.

This isn't an angry post, so don't throw that one back at me. You can reply and tell me how it is, be as stern as you like. But if you're here promoting a particular faith, and can't even live by it, that really sucks.

A faith that practically condemns the majority of mankind to eternal damnation sucks. It needs to be scrutinized, and those who believe in that faith need to defend it with reason.

Have a nice day bro.


Hey !
Nah why would i be stern? is all good!
In any case i am trying to live by the faith that i have - trying ok?

I am definetly not here to "stifle" anything; but i will , here or anywhere i will be, reject and counter all that is immoral and 'attacks' me ('me' as in ME the whole, my whole 'self').
I have all the right to defend and stand for myself.I think we all do.

I meant no offence in any of my posts, if i was - i apologize.


As for the comment with " being eachothers but" - it was pretty uncalled for.
Whats that bs for anyway?
I find it very nice that people stick to eachother for moral-related issues, where is the problem?

[tannah]

I am definetly not here to "stifle" anything; but i will , here or anywhere i will be, reject and counter all that is immoral and 'attacks' me ('me' as in ME the whole, my whole 'self').
I have all the right to defend and stand for myself.I think we all do.


Well yes, and that seems to be a problem when one identifies so strongly with a particular faith that when that faith is being scrutinized the defenders feel that they are being attacked. It isn't you. You're a brother. We can never be seperated regardless of where we're at.

So when I began a thread scrutinizing christianity and the bible, I got accused of being unopen. That's probably because the person felt it was they that were being attacked.

[tannah]

Religions do not have a monopoly on, or an absolute right to prescribe how a human being connects with the universe. If religion has any legitimacy at all, it rests upon its acceptance of human beings as we are.

Prescriptions which seek to negate any....any aspect of human experience are bogus. Jesus Christ was a man, no more no less. He was a spiritually evolved man, but a man none the less.

The currents of universal power he drew upon have existed since the universe was formed. You'll notice I say formed because that is what happened. The universe formed from the physical structure of the previous universe. This whole cycle repeats itself again and again and we are challenged to look within ourselves and out into the cosmos until such a time as the sense of separateness diminishes and disappears.

Shaman and Witches and Christians and Muslims and Buddhists it makes no difference. They are labels which we either transcend in being human, or we languish in some backwater yoked to their authority until the universe whispers or shouts to make yourself and itself known to us.

Being 100% ourselves is only the start of the journey. You have try to be at ease with your deepest self even if that means you are not at ease with yourself!

Honest acceptance means owning those aspects of ourselves which are easily defined into repression by those who fear a whole experience of themselves. They seek to personify their own very human flaws into an external figure of "evil".

Lucifer/Satan is no more than a metaphor. It is the clumsy immature way cultures have sought to abdicate responsibility for their own actions,feelings and existence.

Some people fear the implications of the fact that Shaman and in fact anyone can be powerful and spiritual and have no need of an intermediary to sanctify their connection to the creative spirit of the universe.

I totally agree with your reasoning, especially the cyclic nature of things.

[stfd]

Well yes, and that seems to be a problem when one identifies so strongly with a particular faith that when that faith is being scrutinized the defenders feel that they are being attacked. It isn't you. You're a brother. We can never be seperated regardless of where we're at.

So when I began a thread scrutinizing christianity and the bible, I got accused of being unopen. That's probably because the person felt it was they that were being attacked.

Yea it is sort of like that.
I do feel 'attacked' when one bashes Christianity.
Is one very important 'thing' which makes me - me.

Is pretty logical why i do feel 'attacked'.

You see i feel no need to 'scrutinize' or 'disect' anything related to this so i guess that's also why the reaction.

I guess is at least good we agree on this one lol.

[tannah]

Yea it is sort of like that.
I do feel 'attacked' when one bashes Christianity.
Is one very important 'thing' which makes me - me.

Is pretty logical why i do feel 'attacked'.

You see i feel no need to 'scrutinize' or 'disect' anything related to this so i guess that's also why the reaction.

I guess is at least good we agree on this one lol.

Hey I was a "Christian". Scrutiny is good for ya! Scrutiny isn't attacking.

Take it away John:

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

[the om]

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together? Here ya go:

Beatles Cartoon STEREO - I Am the Walrus - YouTube

:p :D ;)

[armoured_amazon]

Precisely. Were you the one that gave AA a +1 for her comments to me about being wrong and not worth explaining why because I was so unopen?

You "christians" are up each other's butt. After a few weeks of observing it is obvious your main role is to stifle anything you deem non-christian. Because I'm pretty sure you don't come here thinking you'll convert someone.

I can understand why some people get fed up and leave.

Where does "overly" come from? Was it mentioned by me?

And identifying with a particular faith is your problem, not mine. If you identify with it to the extent you can't reason anymore, then we are not talking about being open to any extent anymore. Faith is meant to lead to the light, not become a way of thinking you must be right and everything else is satan/anti-christ and all that rubbish. If text has saved someone then they are dilluding themselves.

As far as christianity is concerned it is no longer dealing with the depths of reality. This can be proved by the many comments made even on this forum.
It can be proved by the lopsided views of its proponents who approach people assuming those people are on a lower standing for not having the christian faith. Don't tell me that is what a christian must do, or else why be a christian? You'll really have missed the point. Be a human and stay open to reason.

As far as shamanism is concerned, and dealing with healing, all things lead ultimately to God, because God creates all things. Like theOm said, it's how we deal with these energies that matters. And personally how the christians here are dealing with their faith is more self righteous than an actual service to others. You no longer "wash the feet of your brothers", but use your faith as a self righteous pedestal. For a christian to say "it ain't worth explaining, you're too unopen" is a totally blind comment. If I were that person I'd re-examine their faith. Especially since what led that person to that comment was based on accurate discriptions of that faith by others.

So yes your brownie points and assumptions of the truth are shallow.
Jesus would be a creepy shaman with strange healing gifts to you nowadays. God to you has to make your egos feel better, feel saved, quote lines of text, feel superior, you might explain you might not, depends if that person is worth it..blah blah.

This isn't an angry post, so don't throw that one back at me. You can reply and tell me how it is, be as stern as you like. But if you're here promoting a particular faith, and can't even live by it, that really sucks.

A faith that practically condemns the majority of mankind to eternal damnation sucks. It needs to be scrutinized, and those who believe in that faith need to defend it with reason.

Have a nice day bro.

LOL '-isms' and '-itys'. Faith is personal; it is between one and their Creator. Your sweeping generalisations are moot.

[edelweiss pirate]

Shaman and Witches and Christians and Muslims and Buddhists it makes no difference.

Would be nice it it were true. It isn't. Pagan religions celebrate power and nature, the revealed religions teach that all that is irrelevent and we should seek to trancend human and material concerns.


Look at how the three different systems deal with someone who slights you:

Wicca will teach you how to be avenged.
Jesus will teach you how to forgive.
Buddha will teach you how to ignore.

For the peace of all concerned the Wicca path is most likely to be counterproductive.

[tannah]

LOL '-isms' and '-itys'. Faith is personal; it is between one and their Creator. Your sweeping generalisations are moot.

That's what I thought when you said I wasn't open or deserved an explanation from you as to why I was wrong about the bible.

[merlincove]

Exactly! But now my question is, if you believe that something like Shamanism was founded by the devil, can it still be used for healing, and for carrying out the divine plan?
I believe it can, because like I said, its a tool (I know you didn't like this analogy, but I'm stickin by it :p ). And regardless of who made the tool, it can be used for either good or bad purposes. It just depends on your intention.

perfect analogy :D

Energy is nutral. it is not good or bad, it is indifferant, it is the intention that activates it to such cause. How we use it, this is what defines it.

Like fire, it can be used for good or for bad, the fire does not intend to cause harm or bring comfort, we use it to kep warm, or we use it to destroy.

Fire is a tool, just like shamanism.

Those voodoo doll things, well they were originally created as a healing tool, where a skilled healer, a shaman, could work on a physical representaion being of a person he could not attend to in order to affect healing. Such a concept - or tool, if you will - was later taken and used for ill purpose. It is supremely powerful magic, though it is not evil and nor is it good, it is simply magic.

[edelweiss pirate]

perfect analogy :D

Energy is nutral. it is not good or bad, it is indifferant, it is the intention that activates it to such cause. How we use it, this is what defines it.

Like fire, it can be used for good or for bad, the fire does not intend to cause harm or bring comfort, we use it to kep warm, or we use it to destroy.

Fire is a tool, just like shamanism.

Those voodoo doll things, well they were originally created as a healing tool, where a skilled healer, a shaman, could work on a physical representaion being of a person he could not attend to in order to affect healing. Such a concept - or tool, if you will - was later taken and used for ill purpose. It is supremely powerful magic, though it is not evil and nor is it good, it is simply magic.


What you say may be true but most who practice these arts and the people who write the books are not quite so 'neutral' in their desires.

It takes superhuman discipline and rare good fortune to be a magician of the pure light and for every one of them there are countless thousands who nurture and manipulate the darkness in themselves. It's a numbers game. That's why odds on, the occult is bad news.

[marpat]

Would be nice it it were true. It isn't. Pagan religions celebrate power and nature, the revealed religions teach that all that is irrelevent and we should seek to trancend human and material concerns.


Look at how the three different systems deal with someone who slights you:

Wicca will teach you how to be avenged.
Jesus will teach you how to forgive.
Buddha will teach you how to ignore.

For the peace of all concerned the Wicca path is most likely to be counterproductive.

Who said paganism isnt a revealed religion? many religions offer a form of escapism from the effort living in the real world and christianity exemplifies this with it evil, dualistic dogma.

Are you an expert in wicca? what is your depth of knowledge? I dont recall any wiccans who are vengeful but there are many christians who are complete sadists.

Buddha doesnt teach people to ignore as this means his path would be one of ignorance. For somebody who claims he is not a christian you seem to have a thing for promoting that belief structure over the others, telling people it is a bout forgiveness when so much evil has been carried out by its followers.

[marpat]

What you say may be true but most who practice these arts and the people who write the books are not quite so 'neutral' in their desires.

It takes superhuman discipline and rare good fortune to be a magician of the pure light and for every one of them there are countless thousands who nurture and manipulate the darkness in themselves. It's a numbers game. That's why odds on, the occult is bad news.

Have you any real experience of what the occult is? what is your definition and explanation of it? many people use 'occult' rituals to invoke the light so how is that bad news?

Can you offer some real facts to support your wild and highly biasedd claims?

[stfd]

Who said paganism isnt a revealed religion? many religions offer a form of escapism from the effort living in the real world and christianity exemplifies this with it evil, dualistic dogma.

Are you an expert in wicca? what is your depth of knowledge? I dont recall any wiccans who are vengeful but there are many christians who are complete sadists.

Buddha doesnt teach people to ignore as this means his path would be one of ignorance. For somebody who claims he is not a christian you seem to have a thing for promoting that belief structure over the others, telling people it is a bout forgiveness when so much evil has been carried out by its followers.

Sadist and Christian are words that in themseves eliminate eachother.
One who is a sadist cant be a Christian - get your shit straight.

[schaff]

What you say may be true but most who practice these arts and the people who write the books are not quite so 'neutral' in their desires.

It takes superhuman discipline and rare good fortune to be a magician of the pure light and for every one of them there are countless thousands who nurture and manipulate the darkness in themselves. It's a numbers game. That's why odds on, the occult is bad news.

Good post EP very true a friend of mine who was not only physically but mentally strong went from being a top bloke to being a right nasty bastard after getting into the occult ,started with the runes and tarot cards then got into all kinds of dark practices and he was never the same again the deeper he delved the nastier and darker he became it was bad news for him his friends and family.

[merlincove]

Good post EP very true a friend of mine who was not only physically but mentally strong went from being a top bloke to being a right nasty bastard after getting into the occult ,started with the runes and tarot cards then got into all kinds of dark practices and he was never the same again the deeper he delved the nastier and darker he became it was bad news for him his friends and family.

Some people have a hunger for power, and those with power have a great hunger for more of the same.

It sounds like your friend was manipulated because he was either to weak or naive to protect himself, he was given a taste of something he liked and decided to emerse himself fully into it.

Those who would control us have learned to know our weaknesses, and they will aspire to use our weaknesses against us in order to attain their will through us.

What you say may be true but most who practice these arts and the people who write the books are not quite so 'neutral' in their desires.

It takes superhuman discipline and rare good fortune to be a magician of the pure light and for every one of them there are countless thousands who nurture and manipulate the darkness in themselves. It's a numbers game. That's why odds on, the occult is bad news.

It does not take 'superhuman discipline' nor 'rare fortune' tom walk with a pure heart, beyond the reach of manipulative energies, it just takes an awareness and the sacrifice of ego. Whether the numbers are stacked one way or another, it is irrevalanet if you have a strong heart and can banish the ego drive for power and glory.

Some can, many can not - but it has nothing to do with luck or superhuman feats. discipline, yes, and an understanding of what is purely right and what is purely wrong as wellk as all the grey areas in between.

:D

[rowan22]

Like in all religions there are those who wear the mask of compassion and "godliness" but whose fundamental motivation is to disempower and negate individuality as they were negated.

And where better for a sadist than a group who supposes itself to be the mouthpieces of the creator? No more vicious and cruel people are those who feel themselves in the service of the divine surely? The "divine mandate" is a powerful cosmic get out of purgatory free card isn't it?

By virtue of the fact that certain people adopt an absolute sense of their own right I would suggest that they are precisely the ones we should be most concerned about not less!

[marpat]

Sadist and Christian are words that in themseves eliminate eachother.
One who is a sadist cant be a Christian - get your shit straight.

Well how about evil murdering christians then

[marpat]

Good post EP very true a friend of mine who was not only physically but mentally strong went from being a top bloke to being a right nasty bastard after getting into the occult ,started with the runes and tarot cards then got into all kinds of dark practices and he was never the same again the deeper he delved the nastier and darker he became it was bad news for him his friends and family.

But dont you think that it might have been a weakness of his character rather than the subjects he was studying? you cant blame these paths because defective people mess around and fuck themselves up.

Why should a person go from being nice to being nasty because he studied tarot or runes? it makes no sense. Perhaps he fancied himself as a black magician because it held some form of attraction to him. I know many people who are living examples of how magic and occultism can help people gain great self control and knowledge instead of having it spoon fed from a vicar.

[rowan22]

Tomás de Torquemada
At his birth (1420, Torquemada, Castile, Spain) Tomás already had something to hide: his grandmother was a converso; a converted Jew; a New Christian.
Spain had more converted Jews than any other country; some had converted by choice, many more by force, but they were all regarded with suspicion and mistrust by the Old Christians. Some, called Marranos, were only nominally converted, and continued their Jewish customs in secret.

The result was the Spanish cult of sangre limpia, "pure blood", that is, pure white Christian blood. Actually, since Spain had the largest Jewish population in medieval Europe and conversion and intermarriage were common, hardly anyone had sangre limpia, but many claimed to, and it was a constant preoccupation of the nobility. Torquemada's life work was an attempts to achieve sangre limpia for Spain.

By 1479, when Spain was unified under Ferdinand and Isabella, Torquemada was a Dominican priest and Isabella's confessor. Four years later he had established himself as the head of the Spanish Inquisition.

The purpose of the Inquisition was to root out heresy, and for Torquemada this meant destroying the Marranos. The Inquisition published a set of guidelines so that Catholics could inform on their Marrano neighbors:


If you see that your neighbors are wearing clean and fancy clothes
on Saturdays, they are Jews.
If they clean their houses on Fridays and light candles earlier than
usual on that night, they are Jews.
If they eat unleavened bread and begin their meal with celery and
lettuce during Holy Week, they are Jews.
If they say prayers facing a wall, bowing back and forth,
they are Jews.
The mildest penalty imposed on Marranos began with the forfeiture of their property, which proved to be a convenient fund-raising technique for the war against the Moors. This was followed by the public humiliation of being paraded through the streets wearing the sambenito, a sulfur-yellow shirt emblazoned with crosses that came only to the waist, leaving the lower body uncovered. They were then flogged at the church door. This was the punishment suffered by Juan Sánchez de Cepeda, the grandfather of Teresa de Avila.

The scale of punishments continued up to burning at the stake, which was performed as a public spectacle called an auto-da-fé ("act of faith"). If the condemned recanted and kissed the cross, they were mercifully garroted before the fire was set. If they recanted only, they were burned with a quick-burning seasoned wood. If not, they were burned with slow-burning green wood.

In 1490 Torquemada staged a famous show-trial, the LaGuardia trial. This involved eight Jews and conversos, who were accused of having crucified a Christian child. No victim was ever identified and no body was ever found; nevertheless all eight were convicted, on the strength of their confessions which were obtained through torture. They were burned at the stake.

Rumours about Jews committing ritual murder of Christian children have circulated around Europe for centuries and are known collectively as "the blood libel." While there is no evidence to support the blood libel, its opposite, the ritual murder of Jews by Christians, is well known. The Spanish Inquisition alone committed the ritual murder of about thirty thousand Jews.

Torquemada used the LaGuardia trial to argue that the Jews were a danger to Spain. His intention was to convince Ferdinand and Isabella to order their expulsion. Hearing of this, two influential Jews raised thirty thousand ducats and offered it to Ferdinand and Isabella, saying they could give them even more if they would allow the Jews to remain. Ferdinand and Isabella, always hard up for cash, wavered at this; but Torquemada said, "Judas sold his Master for thirty ducats. You would sell Him for thirty thousand ... Take Him and sell Him, but do not let it be said that I have had any share in this transaction."

On March 31st, 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella issued their Edict of Expulsion. "[We] have decided to command all of the aforesaid Jews, men and women, to leave our kingdoms and never to return to them." The Jews were given until July 1st to leave the kingdom; any found within its borders after that date would be killed. Some fled to Portugal or North Africa, where they faced more persecution; some took ship with a foolhardy explorer named Christopher Columbus; some remained in Spain as "Secret Jews", and their descendants are still Secret Jews today.

Having accomplished the expulsion of the Jews, Torquemada retired to the monastery of St. Thomas in Avila, which he had designed himself. In his last years he was convinced that he would be poisoned, and kept a unicorn's horn by his plate as an antidote. He was not poisoned, however, but died a natural death in 1498.



copyright © 1996 Beth Randall
bibliography
Table of Contents

[stfd]

Well how about evil murdering christians then

Nope , that doesn't work either.

[joyce7]

I've just bought some books on Witchcraft and I'm enjoying reading them.I've even got a spell book and performed some and what I asked for is giving interesting results.There is nothing to be frightened of ever since I was a child I have been interested in this .I have loads of books on Tarot Pendulems spirit world guides oujia boards etc you name it I'm always looking at them having seen spirit forms it does not frighten me.Most people don't like as their brought up by Religion to think it's wrong.

[stfd]

I've just bought some books on Witchcraft and I'm enjoying reading them.I've even got a spell book and preformed some and what I asked for is giving interesting results.There is nothing to be frightened of ever since I was a child I have been interested in this type of interest etc.I have loads of books on Tarot Pendulems etc you name it I'm always looking at them.Most people don't like as their brought up by Religion to think it's wrong.


lol what's wrong is wrong by itself and in itself.
it's simply how it is.

That this or that religion says the same thing simply enforces "the gut feeling" - is pathetic...

[rowan22]

lol what's wrong is wrong by itself and in itself.
it's simply how it is.

That this or that religion says the same thing simply enforces "the gut feeling" - is pathetic...

You mean like the Inquisition and the Popes silent consent to the slave trade and Holocaust?

[rowan22]

Would be nice it it were true. It isn't. Pagan religions celebrate power and nature, the revealed religions teach that all that is irrelevent and we should seek to trancend human and material concerns.


Look at how the three different systems deal with someone who slights you:

Wicca will teach you how to be avenged.
Jesus will teach you how to forgive.
Buddha will teach you how to ignore.

For the peace of all concerned the Wicca path is most likely to be counterproductive.

Any mantel that is worn over our default humanity is a bad idea. The details are irrelevant. Once the fundamental internalisation of "I need adjustment" has been accepted at an emotional level, it makes no difference whether that mandate comes from Pan or Yahweh or the man in the moon.

[stfd]

You mean like the Inquisition and the Popes silent consent to the slave trade and Holocaust?

Please remeber the Pope is just some guy ultimatelly.
The Pope is not God, maybe the Pope screwed up just as we all do.
Unfortunatelly The RC have a man leading the Church institution, should have been kept in the old ways instead- it could have helped prevent lots of nasty stuff.

[lady_oblivion]

I've study and practiced the occult/magick whatever you wish to call it for 17 years. Its a huge part of my life and i wouldnt have it any other way. When pushed to say what my faith is, i say Khaote, as i genrally refuse to lable myself due to the diversity of my belief set which i a hybrid of everything i've studied. I find my own truths within each tradtion and system and turn it into my own.

I'm a high Priestes out there in the real world and have been teaching for the last 7 years. I have respect for other religions and faiths as we're all different and faith is a very personal choice

[rowan22]

I've just bought some books on Witchcraft and I'm enjoying reading them.I've even got a spell book and performed some and what I asked for is giving interesting results.There is nothing to be frightened of ever since I was a child I have been interested in this .I have loads of books on Tarot Pendulems spirit world guides oujia boards etc you name it I'm always looking at them having seen spirit forms it does not frighten me.Most people don't like as their brought up by Religion to think it's wrong.


Hi Joyce, following your own heart is always what the universe wants from us.

People will tell you that you will be colluding with dark forces etc but that is about their own fear of themselves. The universe is both benign and compassionate and followed in that spirit is always growth promoting.

Just don’t accept anyone who tells you that they have a secret spell of power or an ancient artefact etc. The most esoteric and magical part of the universe is the human heart, know it and trust it.

[stfd]

You mean like the Inquisition and the Popes silent consent to the slave trade and Holocaust?

and no i dont mean like the inquisition or the crusades or the so called convertion at the point of the sword - thats sick fuc&%ed up sh&t and if you judge a group by one of it's so called members ... well what can i say - youve been missled.

[rowan22]

I've study and practiced the occult/magick whatever you wish to call it for 17 years. Its a huge part of my life and i wouldnt have it any other way. When pushed to say what my faith is, i say Khaote, as i genrally refuse to lable myself due to the diversity of my belief set which i a hybrid of everything i've studied. I find my own truths within each tradtion and system and turn it into my own.

I'm a high Priestes out there in the real world and have been teaching for the last 7 years. I have respect for other religions and faiths as we're all different and faith is a very personal choice

Couldn't agree more the truth is in our own hearts.

[lady_oblivion]

aww thank you rowan its very simple really, by boxing ourselfs in and tightly clinging on to paradigms we trap ourselfs and we stop growing. Thinking outside the box is a great thing

[rowan22]

Please remeber the Pope is just some guy ultimatelly.
The Pope is not God, maybe the Pope screwed up just as we all do.
Unfortunatelly The RC have a man leading the Church institution, should have been kept in the old ways instead- it could have helped prevent lots of nasty stuff.

I accept what you say human=fallible. Which is fine so long as the institutions which surround fallibility don’t erect bulwarks of impenetrable divine authority to control the free expression of the human spirit.

[rowan22]

aww thank you rowan its very simple really, by boxing ourselfs in and tightly clinging on to paradigms we trap ourselfs and we stop growing. Thinking outside the box is a great thing

Your welcome and I agree, a loose affiliation keeps me centered and defining myself from the inside and not the outside. That to me is the basis of my belief "I exist" and all I can experience is flavour and texture to the garden.

[rowan22]

and no i dont mean like the inquisition or the crusades or the so called convertion at the point of the sword - thats sick fuc&%ed up sh&t and if you judge a group by one of it's so called members ... well what can i say - youve been missled.


No not by one of its members by repeated exposure on a personal level to people who believe their cruelty to be "for my own good".

Some people who follow the teachings of Jesus are good humane people. But that humanity was theirs by default, it has very little to do (I.M.O) with the teachings it has to do with what the teachings were trying to bring to fruition, but which already resided within them and only needed the hand of another humane human to bring it to the surface.

[lady_oblivion]

Theres so much to learn out there and also so much to learn about ourselfs and break down those barriers which stop us. I've had a year of conscious development , so to speak, and its been an amazingly freeing experience.

[stfd]

I accept what you say human=fallible. Which is fine so long as the institutions which surround fallibility don’t erect bulwarks of impenetrable divine authority to control the free expression of the human spirit.

Well as we are aware ,and as the timeline shows in 1870 the RC have passed the 'dogma of papal infalibility' ...

To say that the Pope can't sin is pure craziness lol.
What more can i say on this...


http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/documents/timeline_ezg_1.gif

[rowan22]

Theres so much to learn out there and also so much to learn about ourselfs and break down those barriers which stop us. I've had a year of conscious development , so to speak, and its been an amazingly freeing experience.


Yeah as the saying goes "know thyself" is the way to knowing others really. I know people follow religions for many reasons, and they are completely entitled to the beliefs they hold, so long as they don’t need to undermine other paths to endorse their own. Some members of organised religion wield their faith like a weapon and I can't accept that that is a legitimate use of spiritual authority.

[rowan22]

Well as we are aware ,and as the timeline shows in 1870 the RC have passed the 'dogma of papal infalibility' ...

To say that the Pope can't sin is pure craziness lol.
What more can i say on this...


http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/documents/timeline_ezg_1.gif


If the pope is a man as other men then why does his sanctification control the volition of millions of Catholics?

[lady_oblivion]

Indeed rowan. I have many friends from across the full faith spectrum including chrsitian, muslim, jewish and when ever we meet we NEVER undermine each others religions. Infact we ask questions we debate discuss and dont resort to petty name calling and saying well your wrong if you dont belive what i do.

My partners an atheist so some times we can get into a heated debate about sprituality but he understands that this is my path. Plus on the various celebrations he gets to party so not to many complaints LOL

[rowan22]

Indeed rowan. I have many friends from across the full faith spectrum including chrsitian, muslim, jewish and when ever we meet we NEVER undermine each others religions. Infact we ask questions we debate discuss and dont resort to petty name calling and saying well your wrong if you dont belive what i do.

My partners an atheist so some times we can get into a heated debate about sprituality but he understands that this is my path. Plus on the various celebrations he gets to party so not to many complaints LOL

That’s ideally as it should be. Mutual respect so long as that respect is reciprocal and done with a smile. I am one of the few who actually believe that religion and intolerance are not always the fault of religion but the fault of intolerance.

[stfd]

If the pope is a man as other men then why does his sanctification control the volition of millions of Catholics?

I couldn't accuratelly answer that.
But this is what i can say:

Even so,when millions of Catholics 'follow' their Pope (more or less), one cant and should not judge them all by the actions of some who purpousely did the things they did so that everyone gets the judgement as a group.
Remember that everyone is repaid - by the repayer of all -for his deeds as a single undivisible soul and NOT as a group.

I am not entirely sure but i dont think all Popes were actually sanctified.
If you know that let me know, pretty curious about it.

In the event that they were , well that makes things even crazier as one who basically agrees with mass murder can't be a Saint , not even a simple Christian.
But hey to each his own :D

[lady_oblivion]

Its not really the religions fault. Religion is a concept, an idea, its the people who follow and interept it which make it what it is

[rowan22]

I couldn't accuratelly answer that.
But this is what i can say:

Even so,when millions of Catholics 'follow' their Pope (more or less), one cant and should not judge them all by the actions of some who purpousely did the things they did so that everyone gets the judgement as a group.
Remember that everyone is repaid - by the repayer of all -for his deeds as a single undivisible soul and NOT as a group.

I am not entirely sure but i dont think all Popes were actually sanctified.
If you know that let me know, pretty curious about it.

In the event that they were , well that makes things even crazier as one who basically agrees with mass murder can't be a Saint , not even a simple Christian.
But hey to each his own :D

Its a very strange time we are living through, the Pope whether by way of Papal infallibility or not still speaks for millions of the earths population.

His pronouncements on say abortion and contraception leave millions in squalor and poverty, he is no more a single man than a general on a battle field is a single man. His actions and instructions shape the lives and deaths of millions of people. If, as you say we are "judged" as the members of an indivisible spirit then our effects will also be judged and not just our actions.

For as the ripples on a pond spread outward, those of us whose existence holds so much sway on others surely have a concomitant measure of responsibility for those effects and actions.

[lady_oblivion]

So who are the witches/shamans and occultists out there? LOL. Always nice to meet like minded people.

[rowan22]

Its not really the religions fault. Religion is a concept, an idea, its the people who follow and interept it which make it what it is


True, and the concept shapes the experience which shapes the belief and gives rise to the action. And I agree that it is up to people to keep the empathy and compassion which is the real foundation of spirituality alive. We are all responsible for one another to remind us of what gentle human contact is about.

[stfd]

Its a very strange time we are living through, the Pope whether by way of Papal infallibility or not still speaks for millions of the earths population.

His pronouncements on say abortion and contraception leave millions in squalor and poverty, he is no more a single man than a general on a battle field is a single man. His actions and instructions shape the lives and deaths of millions of people. If, as you say we are "judged" as the members of an indivisible spirit then our effects will also be judged and not just our actions.

For as the ripples on a pond spread outward, those of us whose existence holds so much sway on others surely have a concomitant measure of responsibility for those effects and actions.

Someone once said that whomever has eyes to see and ears to hear should use them.
And man , such a great sugestion that was/is.

And i mean ok this guys says this the other says that but one has to use his mind and heart and ultimatelly make us of that freedom his got.

what can i say we have to act as that which we have been created to be - and that was/is NOT drones.

[rowan22]

So who are the witches/shamans and occultists out there? LOL. Always nice to meet like minded people.

I think the ones who "protest too much" always make feel exhausted. I'm sure you know what I mean. I'm just at the stage where I value my own uniqueness far more than a title or a persona. I delight in being an oddball and am fiercely into deep ecology. But I have always felt this way. I love laughing and stupid humour. I resent being defined so don’t define others. I will always find common ground with someone who shows there underbelly so to speak because I value sincerity and genuines most of all. I feel this makes me who I am more than a title.

[lady_oblivion]

Well it was a post to get this thread back on track LOL. As it seems to of lost its ways. I'm a self confessed fruity loop and my partner thinks i'm certifiably insane. I'm also compleatly happy with who and what i am and people can think of me whatever they wish, their bad perception, their problem LOL.

[rowan22]

Someone once said that whomever has eyes to see and ears to hear should use them.
And man , such a great sugestion that was/is.

And i mean ok this guys says this the other says that but one has to use his mind and heart and ultimatelly make us of that freedom his got.

what can i say we have to act as that which we have been created to be - and that was/is NOT drones.

I totally agree. And my decision to be an individual as opposed to a "believer" reflects my commitment to remain outside of the hive!!

For me we are all (as you say) members of an indivisible mind. The sense of separateness is ultimately an illusion, but it is an illusion with a profound purpose. And that purpose is to give each person a choice in free will to establish an organismic and spiritual integrity. An integrity which cannot be imposed or dictated but which must be chosen as an act of pure human volitional choice...a real revelation of the soul.

[rowan22]

Well it was a post to get this thread back on track LOL. As it seems to of lost its ways. I'm a self confessed fruity loop and my partner thinks i'm certifiably insane. I'm also compleatly happy with who and what i am and people can think of me whatever they wish, their bad perception, their problem LOL.


You seem a very nice fruity loop! some of the best people I know are certifiably insane so there you go. If the price we pay for freedom is a little eccentricity then I'm all in!!

The real causes for concern reside well and truly on the normal arm of the bar chart lol!!. In insane times madness is normal reaction to an abnormal situation.

[lady_oblivion]

well it adds a little spice and interest to things ;) LOL.

[rapunzel]

In calling something unnameable and infinite, we've given it two names already. I think you're splitting hairs.

Well spotted. Of course the minute we say anything about this Creator we have defined it but the alternative is to not speak about it which is not acceptable to me.

[armoured_amazon]

I've just bought some books on Witchcraft and I'm enjoying reading them.I've even got a spell book and performed some and what I asked for is giving interesting results.

So, in your opinion, it's okay to bend others to your will, then.

And we can all label ourselves high priests and priestesses. Some of us didn't even need to learn from books! We were born with abilities and don't feel the need to create a title of self-importance and deify ourselves. We unlearned and shake our heads at the debacle of the so-called 'all-knowing' people, speaking as though they are trumpets, when they are car horns.

'Development' of the Ego gets them nowhere, other than becoming a legend in their own living rooms. A slave to themSelves.

Woop woop!

[merlincove]

So, in your opinion, it's okay to bend others to your will, then.

And we can all label ourselves high priests and priestesses. Some of us didn't even need to learn from books! We were born with abilities and don't feel the need to create a title of self-importance and deify ourselves. We unlearned and shake our heads at the debacle of the so-called 'all-knowing' people, speaking as though they are trumpets, when they are car horns.

'Development' of the Ego gets them nowhere, other than becoming a legend in their own living rooms. A slave to themSelves.

Woop woop!

lol, that made me laugh so much i spilled coffee...

There is some definate truth there - that sometimes learning is not a prerequisite, when the gift is there already.

i feel that i bought a lot with me, and i think a lot of people have a natural aptitude and a knowing for things esoteric, and that such a knowing can be seen to be a natural aspect of their being. Also i was also shown a great deal by my guides from a very early age, which has helped me form a deep understanding.

it's a lil bit like music, sometimes there comes a soul who can play anything, and play well, without the need to learn, a natural gift of being, an affinity with rhythm, with song.

Witchcraft, Shamanism, a knowing, it is like an extention of the Self, a part of being, just like a guitar becomes an extension of the players being - the guitar, or the gift, are not seperate things with such people, they become something much more intrisic and tangable.

Such empathy moves beyond normal scopes. Those with such talents have a unique apraishal of their abilities that does not always fit the generally concieved molds of understanding from learning: such understanding can be the recognition of learning that was learned long ago, beyond the edges of physical memory, beyond the hold of time. and with such esoteric gifts, time becaomes none-existantm, a barrier bested, so it is perfectly concievable that for a soul to understand times limitations, through the learning of knowledge, such knowledge is not contained by the same time that contains the physical aspects of 'past lifes.'

And, once we learn to move beyond the limitations that time exerts upon us, it is absolutely possable to draw upon the essence of understanding from our future selves too, in a similar way :D

But that is a whole new story.

knowing without learning.

[the om]

So, in your opinion, it's okay to bend others to your will, then.

And we can all label ourselves high priests and priestesses. Some of us didn't even need to learn from books! We were born with abilities and don't feel the need to create a title of self-importance and deify ourselves. We unlearned and shake our heads at the debacle of the so-called 'all-knowing' people, speaking as though they are trumpets, when they are car horns.

'Development' of the Ego gets them nowhere, other than becoming a legend in their own living rooms. A slave to themSelves.

Woop woop!

While I agree that its wrong to "bend others to your will", I don't think that every single spell has something to do with that. I mean, there are plenty of healing spells out there, right? I doubt you would need to gain control over anyone to heal (after all, its a direct juxtaposition). Its like I've been saying (or, I guess, agreeing with the original poster) all along: the occult, in its many shapes and forms, is a tool. Nothing more or less. A tool you can use to kill or help.

And you said that "some of us didn't even need to learn from books". I completely agree, but while there are those of us who may pick up a musical instrument and be able to play any song just by hearing it (I've heard of a lot of people who can do that with the Piano), they'll never be able to create anything as incredible as what Hendrix managed to do in the short 27 years of his life. And how did he get to where he got to? Not by picking up the guitar and playing, but by practicing. He practiced so that he could play what he heard in his head.

And there is actually nothing wrong with the ego. Hell, I use mine all the time! Its when we allow our ego to go into its 'pay attention to me!!!' mode that we get kinda screwed... Its because then we begin to create conflict and the whole 'I'm right, you're fucked up for thinking what you think' that inevitably ends in no one being happy with the outcome of the 'discussion'.

And as an end note, the occult isn't evil. A lot of people are instinctually afraid of it because they see the state of the world, and hear that the illuminatti use it, so immediately assume its the purest expression of evil. What they forget though, is that in nature there is both fire, and water.

Peace

Edit: its late here, so I was typing pretty slowly... But I just saw that Merlin and me wrote a lot of the same stuff... Mainly about the musical reference. What can I say? Great mids think alike... :p :D

[merlincove]

>>>Edit: its late here, so I was typing pretty slowly... But I just saw that Merlin and me wrote a lot of the same stuff... Mainly about the musical reference. What can I say? Great minds think alike...<<<

i was actually gonna use Hendrix as an analogy too :D i think that guy was just at one with the music, his music came fromthe heart, the guitarw as just a means of it being heard :D

[lady_oblivion]

I had an inate ability but that never stopped me from reading and studying as it opened my eyes to news things and new ideas, rather then just being stuck on the same track. Gave me a far wider view of themany idfferent practices out there. If you take it down to its very simplist form magick isn just energy and the way we use it, words, actions, crystals etc are all just focuses of that energy which help us do as we will. If you get rid of all the distraction(though a little drama is always fun now and again) its a weonderfully different experince.

I tend not to do spells anyone as i've come past that point and if you look at it a lot fo low magick as such is inherently selfish due to it statisfying you. Magick has no colour, its not black or white.

[rowan22]

lol, that made me laugh so much i spilled coffee...

There is some definate truth there - that sometimes learning is not a prerequisite, when the gift is there already.

i feel that i bought a lot with me, and i think a lot of people have a natural aptitude and a knowing for things esoteric, and that such a knowing can be seen to be a natural aspect of their being. Also i was also shown a great deal by my guides from a very early age, which has helped me form a deep understanding.

it's a lil bit like music, sometimes there comes a soul who can play anything, and play well, without the need to learn, a natural gift of being, an affinity with rhythm, with song.

Witchcraft, Shamanism, a knowing, it is like an extention of the Self, a part of being, just like a guitar becomes an extension of the players being - the guitar, or the gift, are not seperate things with such people, they become something much more intrisic and tangable.

Such empathy moves beyond normal scopes. Those with such talents have a unique apraishal of their abilities that does not always fit the generally concieved molds of understanding from learning: such understanding can be the recognition of learning that was learned long ago, beyond the edges of physical memory, beyond the hold of time. and with such esoteric gifts, time becaomes none-existantm, a barrier bested, so it is perfectly concievable that for a soul to understand times limitations, through the learning of knowledge, such knowledge is not contained by the same time that contains the physical aspects of 'past lifes.'

And, once we learn to move beyond the limitations that time exerts upon us, it is absolutely possable to draw upon the essence of understanding from our future selves too, in a similar way :D

But that is a whole new story.

knowing without learning.

Really enjoyed this post thanks.

[rowan22]

So, in your opinion, it's okay to bend others to your will, then.

And we can all label ourselves high priests and priestesses. Some of us didn't even need to learn from books! We were born with abilities and don't feel the need to create a title of self-importance and deify ourselves. We unlearned and shake our heads at the debacle of the so-called 'all-knowing' people, speaking as though they are trumpets, when they are car horns.

'Development' of the Ego gets them nowhere, other than becoming a legend in their own living rooms. A slave to themSelves.

Woop woop!



I feel that in reality we are always whether by intention or not influencing, shaping or bending other people to our will, perception, or viewpoint.

The very act of expressing a strongly held point of view could be said to be such an attempt. Refining our understanding, honing our debating skills supplying our intellect with the means to prove our point of view as something "superior" to another’s is our cultures benchmark of intelligence isn't it?

I would say that things which fall under the umbrella term "esoteric" include reason but also extend its application to include the subtler elements of consciousness. I say subtler because for most people their feelings are not fully integrated or acknowledged.

For me I would advance my position as I am doing now presenting (hopefully) coherent points to try and cast a different light on what is under discussion. What I wouldn't do is deploy underhanded methods to undermine or negate another persons view.

Purely because I feel that this would mean I was totally unaware of how my own spiritual progress was to be made. Namely by coming to understand and where possible have an empathic connection with another person and their experience of lets face it a shared consciousness.

I like your "legend in their own living room" made me laugh! And your right the ego can and does get hold of ideas in some cases before the time is right for it to comfortably do so. But I feel this is a vital and valuable opportunity for learning.

A bit of crisis/transformation isn't always a bad thing. And those of you/us who are further along the road less travelled show our maturity by perceiving and receiving another’s state and stage and holding it with compassion (I.M.O.)

[rowan22]

>>>Edit: its late here, so I was typing pretty slowly... But I just saw that Merlin and me wrote a lot of the same stuff... Mainly about the musical reference. What can I say? Great minds think alike...<<<

i was actually gonna use Hendrix as an analogy too :D i think that guy was just at one with the music, his music came fromthe heart, the guitarw as just a means of it being heard :D


Watched Hendrix on Woodstock this weekend, words like awesome just seem laughable but have you ever seen anyone so indistinguishable from their means of expression like a serpent writhing around a guitar, gives me chills watching him!!!

[miracles]

“When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” (Exodus 22:18).

[rapunzel]

The Egyptians also had a moon god called jah. Perhaps this is the root of the Hebrew god.

Normally Thoth was thought of as the moon god but this Jah or Iah (no agreement on how it was pronounced) just means moon. According to the British Museum he didn't appear until after 660 BC so too late to influence the Israelites but interesting thought.

[edelweiss pirate]

Watched Hendrix on Woodstock this weekend, words like awesome just seem laughable but have you ever seen anyone so indistinguishable from their means of expression like a serpent writhing around a guitar, gives me chills watching him!!!

Unfortunately the voodoo spirits Hendrix evoked were ulitmately his downfall as he had to pay them back with his early death.....

Robert Johnson was the first blues man to make a deal with the devil, he again paid with his life.....

It isn't big and it isn't clever. Even the music they produce while superficially thrilling, leads to emotionally unbalance.... the chaos we see in society is a result of discordant and hypnotic rhythms which lead us into trance like delirium of excess....

The Beatles had to give up touring because their female fans became uncontrollable and virtually insane during concerts.

I love music too as much as anyone, I also see the disturbing power it contains for what it is.

[lady_oblivion]

lol mircles, your words dont bother me in the slightest lol. You really must get it through your mind that not everyone on this world is christian and not everyone shares your views. But hey ho i'd proerly get through more to a brick wall each to there own.

[miracles]

lol mircles, your words dont bother me in the slightest lol. You really must get it through your mind that not everyone on this world is christian and not everyone shares your views. But hey ho i'd proerly get through more to a brick wall each to there own.


They arent my words love. :D .01 percent of the world are true Christians, Im only trying to improve the odds

[lady_oblivion]

lol, well i've been quoted that many times it make me chuckle not sure why. I know a few of what i woulod call true chrsitians and they are the kindest people i know, truely fantastic. We just have the policy of not discussing faith seeing it differs so much LOL. I'll think i';ll take a passon your thread though mirciles as i donnt like arguing on the internet its kinda pointless plus i simple can ignore it LOL

[edelweiss pirate]

lol, well i've been quoted that many times it make me chuckle not sure why. I know a few of what i woulod call true chrsitians and they are the kindest people i know, truely fantastic. We just have the policy of not discussing faith seeing it differs so much LOL

That's really cool and probably a good idea. Some of the most brainwashed and least interesting people I've met have called themselves Christians, also some of the best and kindest people have also called themselves Christians...

Probably the same thing goes for pagans.

I think we should try to end all this endless polarisation and turning things into a 'them and us' scam. Divide and conquer plays straight into the Illuminati's hands.

We could certainly use some of that pagan firepower to help take the Illuminati down!

[miracles]

lol, well i've been quoted that many times it make me chuckle not sure why. I know a few of what i woulod call true chrsitians and they are the kindest people i know, truely fantastic. We just have the policy of not discussing faith seeing it differs so much LOL. I'll think i';ll take a passon your thread though mirciles as i donnt like arguing on the internet its kinda pointless plus i simple can ignore it LOL

Funny, Im not arguing. And its not my thread. It's the thread put here by some who hates me and christianity so much, she has left the forum.

I'm glad you have some lovely Christian friends but remember you posted to me first. I think you really must get it through your mind that some of us here are christians and in a religious forum we tend to discuss religion. .

[lady_oblivion]

I've met some incredibly intollerent people in the "pagan" community. More then likely becuas ethy cant fit me in a box and figure out what i believe without going deeper then the surface. Oh and btw i know god exsists,but hes not the only one and not the sole creator of everything and he really doesnt have a lot of influence in my life what so ever.

Stopping the us and them thing would be fab getting united and lookin past beliefs but you know thas never gonig to happen as the individuals dontwant it to. I can get on with anyone of an faith, its was there desicion to belief what they do.

[lady_oblivion]

i was talking about this one http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78166

[miracles]

i was talking about this one http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78166


Oh I see, sorry about that. By all means, pass on it. :)

[rowan22]

Unfortunately the voodoo spirits Hendrix evoked were ulitmately his downfall as he had to pay them back with his early death.....

Robert Johnson was the first blues man to make a deal with the devil, he again paid with his life.....

It isn't big and it isn't clever. Even the music they produce while superficially thrilling, leads to emotionally unbalance.... the chaos we see in society is a result of discordant and hypnotic rhythms which lead us into trance like delirium of excess....

The Beatles had to give up touring because their female fans became uncontrollable and virtually insane during concerts.

I love music too as much as anyone, I also see the disturbing power it contains for what it is.


Beatles fans were the expression of a cultivated hysteria which was a symptom of the repression of the generation reaching a point of release no more no less.

The sexual revolution of the sixties was both liberator and yoke of oppression. It smashed the Psychological stranglehold the state had through the shame and guilt created by the church. It also presented an opportunity for the manipulation of the masses using mass market popular culture to replace an intrinsic with an extrinsic locus of evaluation and value.

Music like any medium can be abused and misused to create a culture of Nihilism and despair Hip Hop can be seen to be both an exposé of the corruption of Capitalist society and its lap dog.

It rails against the injustice of Neo Conservatism on the one hand and on the other celebrates a culture which devalues life and celebrates self destruction and therefore surrenders its own self worth.

In this it is a reflection not of the polarity between good/evil but a reflection of the duality inherent in all things.

It is a things use in intent which determines its effect and its value.

A gun can be used to defend a pregnant mother from a murderer. A kidney dialysis machine can be unplugged and dropped from a window to kill an innocent passer by, nothing is good or evil in and of itself.

There are myriad influences and contexts which shape peoples actions and I'm afraid music comes pretty far down the list when we are ranking order of importance.

Child abuse and a lack of attachment to those who are supposed to love us comes however pretty much near the top.

As for selling of the soul? People can fall under the spell of a belief or another persons will only if that’s persons belief system is already an accommodating fit for the abusers mind set. Voodoo is a good example if you buy into the Psychological frankly superstition of voo doo then the negative effects of a “curse” become a self fulfilling prophecy much like the inverse of the placebo effect.

I simply do not accept the existence of a personification of good or evil and so do not encounter either in my life. I encounter people who are hurt and angry or pious and passively aggressive but these things are often perfectly normal reactions given an understanding of the context in which they developed and grew up.

Hendrix came from a deprived ghetto pure and simple. He had loads of cash and women throwing themselves at his feet during a time when social upheaval re drew the boundaries of virtually every convention which had existed. Add to this mind altering drugs and loads of them and you don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to work out why things went bad for him

[marpat]

“When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” (Exodus 22:18).

Isnt the correct interpretation a poisoner, not a witch? would it not also depend on what the ancient hebrews thought a witch was compared to what christians consider them to be?

Also, are you condoning the killing of people who call themselves witches? very christian of you.

[stfd]

Isnt the correct interpretation a poisoner, not a witch? would it not also depend on what the ancient hebrews thought a witch was compared to what christians consider them to be?

Also, are you condoning the killing of people who call themselves witches? very christian of you.

'killing' of anything is simply pointless and exactly the opposite of constructive.
'killing' is firmly stated in the 10 Commandments.
'killing' is against 'life' as it 'does' exactly the opposite.

And as Christian promotes 'life' it is at the core, flawed to have Christianity and 'killing' in the same sentence.

[marpat]

'killing' of anything is simply pointless and exactly the opposite of constructive.
'killing' is firmly stated in the 10 Commandments.
'killing' is against 'life' as it 'does' exactly the opposite.

And as Christian promotes 'life' it is at the core, flawed to have Christianity and 'killing' in the same sentence.

Yet God tells Peter (if I am correct) to 'kill and eat up'. He refuses and pisses God off. Jesus celebrated the passover, which would have entailed killing some animals I would have thought.

It is true that killing is forbidden in the bible yet on many occasions the word of God tells the Israelites to kill their enemies, including women and children at times. How does that fit in? even God kills when he feels the need, again born out in the bible.

[stfd]

Yet God tells Peter (if I am correct) to 'kill and eat up'. He refuses and pisses God off. Jesus celebrated the passover, which would have entailed killing some animals I would have thought.

It is true that killing is forbidden in the bible yet on many occasions the word of God tells the Israelites to kill their enemies, including women and children at times. How does that fit in? even God kills when he feels the need, again born out in the bible.

ummm i am not sure what you're trying to say.

'kill and eat up' what ?

sorry

[marpat]

ummm i am not sure what you're trying to say.

'kill and eat up' what ?

sorry

Animals, but it is still killing

[stfd]

Animals, but it is still killing

...ok

i have no comments.

[danceswithbunnies]

Okay so..(as mrs doyle on father ted would say)

If anyone wants to still discuss this i am bringing the thread up again..
maybe favorite authors, music, food and favorite celebrations...
because fear sucks and being happy is fun.

Think i will be celebrating my first autumn equinox and may be going to a first pagan meetup in my area..i am jazzed and nervous.

Found an interesting book, for people who might not want to work physical spells anymore..you can do it in your imagination which sounds like alot of fun.

Check out the New Hermetics
Has alot of very interesting ideas. Visualization+NLP..

http://books.google.com/books?id=Or7uQAuEu2AC&pg=PP1&dq=new+hermetics&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[major seven]

Bunny
Think i will be celebrating my first autumn equinox and may be going to a first pagan meetup in my area..i am jazzed and nervous.


M7
Why?
What sort of pagans are they and what do they believe?

Really Bunny!
Considering your history with "non-involvement", much like my own, I'm intrigued to know why you would want to get involved with these pagan guys.

M7

[danceswithbunnies]

Bunny
Think i will be celebrating my first autumn equinox and may be going to a first pagan meetup in my area..i am jazzed and nervous.


M7
Why?
What sort of pagans are they and what do they believe?

Really Bunny!
Considering your history with "non-involvement", much like my own, I'm intrigued to know why you would want to get involved with these pagan guys.

M7

In a nutshell: Experience..

Why wouldn't i want to hang out with them?
They are a mixed group of various kinds of pagans that have eclectic beliefs

They don't demand belief or obedience to anything and are open minded, and have fun with each other.


I used to live in another state, and attended a couple of their pagan fairs and festivals there.

It has taken me about three years to make up my mind.
This last year has been the clincher.

I have had the direct experience that spirit realms co-exist beside us, despite what religionists say these are not "demonic". To subscribe to some other view would be to deny my own experiences.

I have experience from the past with the pagans,..overwhelmingly positive.

Add to that experiences i have had with christians in the past year,in churches and out.

Added to that my affinity with nature, and animals..i have amazing experiences with wildlife

And why wouldn't i want to join a loose knit community who enjoys the same things?
Is there something good about staying isolated?
Maybe by sharing power we can come up with new ways of doing things, new ways of being, and bring healing to each other and community.

[edelweiss pirate]

In a nutshell: Experience..

Why wouldn't i want to hang out with them?
They are a mixed group of various kinds of pagans that have eclectic beliefs

They don't demand belief or obedience to anything and are open minded, and have fun with each other.


I used to live in another state, and attended a couple of their pagan fairs and festivals there.

It has taken me about three years to make up my mind.
This last year has been the clincher.

I have had the direct experience that spirit realms co-exist beside us, despite what religionists say these are not "demonic". To subscribe to some other view would be to deny my own experiences.

I have experience from the past with the pagans,..overwhelmingly positive.

Add to that experiences i have had with christians in the past year,in churches and out.

Added to that my affinity with nature, and animals..i have amazing experiences with wildlife

And why wouldn't i want to join a loose knit community who enjoys the same things?
Is there something good about staying isolated?
Maybe by sharing power we can come up with new ways of doing things, new ways of being, and bring healing to each other and community.


Well if you become a pagan you'll be in good company, the rulers of our world are all pagans.

That's what puts me off. Why join the slime?

[saicosis]

Well if you become a pagan you'll be in good company, the rulers of our world are all pagans.

That's what puts me off. Why join the slime?

I think you're referring to something different than what Dances is talking about. Pagan is a very broad term.

[element]

I think you're referring to something different than what Dances is talking about. Pagan is a very broad term.
What boggles me is that some Christians on this forum say we shouldn't generalize them, and shouldn't use the bad apples (the 'fake Christians' and Catholics etc.) as an example of what Christianity or Christians are/would be.
Yet.. they are guilty of this behaviour themselves.

Maybe they should start to tell us what they mean with paganism, and what they think is so bad about it.

''Who is a "Pagan?"

Everybody has their favorite definition of the word "Pagan." Most people are convinced that their meaning is the correct one. But no consensus exists, even within a single faith tradition or religion as to the "correct" definition of "Pagan." The same problem happens with the definition of "Christianity," and probably with many other religions.''

...

''By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today.''

http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm

[stfd]

What boggles me is that Christians on this forum say we shouldn't generalize them, and shouldn't use the bad apples (the 'fake Christians' and Catholics etc.) as an example of what Christianity or Christians are/would be.
Yet.. they are guilty of this behaviour themselves.

Maybe they should start to tell us what they mean with paganism, and what they think is so bad about it.

''Who is a "Pagan?"

Everybody has their favorite definition of the word "Pagan." Most people are convinced that their meaning is the correct one. But no consensus exists, even within a single faith tradition or religion as to the "correct" definition of "Pagan." The same problem happens with the definition of "Christianity," and probably with many other religions.''

...

''By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today.''

http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm



uhuh you are soooo riiight mr 'truthseeker' ...

[octopusrex]

I suspect Christianity to be more "pagan" than most.
My reasoning is simple: Rome brought it to us.
Rome had some funky ass religions before Christ came around.
Why would Constantine want to bright Christ into the mix?
It fit Rome's needs.

On the other hand, Christ's message is perfectly good to life a fine, healthy life. Unless your chosen profession is that of Witch-Doctor.... Then you need to 'go outside the box'.. Or in this case 'the book'.

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

[stfd]

I suspect Christianity to be more "pagan" than most.
My reasoning is simple: Rome brought it to us.
Rome had some funky ass religions before Christ came around.
Why would Constantine want to bright Christ into the mix?
It fit Rome's needs.

On the other hand, Christ's message is perfectly good to life a fine, healthy life. Unless your chosen profession is that of Witch-Doctor.... Then you need to 'go outside the box'.. Or in this case 'the book'.

If it ain't broke, why fix it?


Uhh If Rome would have been the one who brought this religion it would have been called something like 'Romanity' or something like that.
I twas not however , it was brought to us by Christ , so is called Christianity.
Constantine realized and understood what Christ's message was/is hence why he became a Christian himself and by the power of his position turned Christianity into 'state religion'.

There is no box, no box whatesoever.
Just God.

[miracles]

I suspect Christianity to be more "pagan" than most.
My reasoning is simple: Rome brought it to us.
Rome had some funky ass religions before Christ came around.
Why would Constantine want to bright Christ into the mix?
It fit Rome's needs.

On the other hand, Christ's message is perfectly good to life a fine, healthy life. Unless your chosen profession is that of Witch-Doctor.... Then you need to 'go outside the box'.. Or in this case 'the book'.

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Christianity outlived the Roman empire man!
And it was Herod an pilot who ploted to have Christ killed in order to preserve the tryrianical power structure, they didnt bank on the followers evangelising the world.

That Rome gave us Christianity is a myth, that has grown the legs of centipede in places like this.

[tannah]

Christianity outlived the Roman empire man!
And it was Herod an pilot who ploted to have Christ killed in order to preserve the tryrianical power structure, they didnt bank on the followers evangelising the world.

That Rome gave us Christianity is a myth, that has grown the legs of centipede in places like this.

Bye bye Miracles. Thanks for sharing your dreamworld.