HPV Vaccine - Gardasil

[nodens]

Hello all,

My little sister has recently gone to the doctor who has strongly recommended that she get this vaccine as soon as possible. She has asked my mother and myself what we have heard about (we both work in the health industry). Beyond the usual anti-vaccine information that I can provide to her I was looking for any information specific to Gardasil that you may be able to provide positive or negative so that she can make a more informed decision about whether or not to have the injection.

I have gone over (and am continuing to do so) the forums and found a few sites on these forums. Unfortunately, for my purposes, most of the threads are about the Swine Flu 'pandemic'. Any links and information that I can pass on to her would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance everyone.

All the best,
Nodens

[motleyhoo]

Have you heard about the Jane Burgermeister lawsuits regarding mass vaccinations? She was just on Coast to Coast and she commented that the media is keeping from us information that Gardisil is causing many maladies all over the world, includiing sterility. She went on to say that big pharma knows Gardisil is harmful and that they are covering it up.

There is no possible way I would ever let my child get this shot. You are FAR more likely to get sick from the shot than develop cancer someday because you didn't get the shot. Not only that, but it has never been proven by anyone that the shot even works. Humans are gullible and they have been duped and brainwashed into believeing anything medical authorities say, when in fact they are just as fallable as anyone else.

.

[ustane]

How do i stop my adult daughter (18 yrs) having this? She isn't listening to me yet I have showed her a video about a girl who died from it.:eek::(

How can I wash this out of her system if she's already had it?

[americana]

http://www.newswithviews.com/NWV-News/news57.htm

& found the above article . . . here's the beginning of it:

EIGHTEEN DEATHS LINKED TO GARDASIL VACCINE REPORT CLAIMS



By NWV Staff Writer, Sarah Foster
Posted 1:00 AM Eastern
July 17, 2008
© NewsWithViews.com

A recent publication by a conservative watchdog group has rekindled media interest in a controversial anti-virus vaccine and sent Big Pharma and federal health agency officials into damage control mode.

In a 25-page special report released June 30, Judicial Watch -- a Washington DC-based nonprofit organization that promotes “transparency and accountability in government” – presents evidence based on government documents that in the two years since being licensed by the Food and Drug Administration, Merck & Co’s Gardasil, heavily promoted as a safe and effective vaccine against cervical cancer, has been connected with nearly 9,000 “adverse events,” including the deaths of 18 – perhaps 20 – girls and young women.

In addition, there were 140 “serious” events reported (27 categorized as “life-threatening”), with 10 spontaneous abortions and six cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome – all since January 2008.

Then I typed in gardasil sick headaches on Yahoo, because I remember that girls got headaches (for STARTERS) . . .

And here's an article from The New York Post:

FEDS’ WARNING SHOT

By SUSAN EDELMAN and BRUCE GOLDING

July 6, 2008 —

GARDASIL – a new cervical-cancer vaccine heavily marketed to young girls in ubiquitous ads on TV and in movie theaters – is under investigation for possible links to paralysis, seizures, and 18 deaths.

Federal health officials have logged 8,000 “adverse events” in girls and women injected with the Merck & Co. vaccine introduced two years ago, more than 500 of them from New York.

And lawyers last month filed the first two claims on behalf of girls with ailments blamed on Gardasil under a federal program to compensate victims of vaccine-caused illness, The Post has learned.

Both girls got the injections at their middle schools.

One is Jesalee Parsons, now 15, of Oklahoma, who began vomiting the day she got a Gardasil shot and developed pancreatitis, her claim says.

“It makes me mad because they’re saying how great it is, but they never mention how many people have been hurt by it,” Jesalee told The Post.

Healthy all her life, her family says, Jesalee has been hospitalized on and off for more than a year. She restricts her diet, takes pain pills and misses many school days.

“I’m pretty sick all the time,” she said.

The other claim was filed for Jessica Vega of Nevada, who came down with Guillain-Barré Syndrome, an immune-system disorder, at age 14 – a week after her second Gardasil shot.

Thirty others have reported the syndrome after getting the vaccine.

JESSICA’S mom, Rhonda Vega, says the girl’s lower legs and arms were paralyzed, but she’s learned to walk again. “Protecting girls against cervical cancer is a fabulous thing, but if this is what’s going to happen, they need to research it more,” she said.

In Florida, the mother of 13-year-old Brittany LeClaire said her daughter suffered headaches and lethargy after a Gardasil shot last Aug. 13. On Sept. 2, Brittany’s left leg became paralyzed. After months on a walker, she limps.

Her pediatrician “highly recommended” the vaccination, mom Christina Bell said. “He told me it was a cancer preventative. I thought it was the right thing to do. You see it advertised on TV every 15 minutes.”

Brittany’s case is one of six being prepared for filing by Boston vaccine lawyer Kevin Conway. He said other cases include “paralysis, seizures and brain damage.”

Gardasil was licensed by the Food and Drug Administration in June 2006 for females ages 9 to 26. Sold worldwide, it’s been given to more than 8 million US girls and women, Merck says.

The vaccine is aimed at warding off strains of the human papillomavirus, or HPV, which can lead to cancer. The vaccinations cost a total $360.

Securities and Exchange Commission documents show Merck made $1.5 billion in Gardasil sales last year.

ONE doctor who helped conduct clinical trials on Gardasil told The Post the vaccine has been aggressively marketed to girls too young to need it.

“There’s a huge push for giving this to girls 11 and 12 years of age,” said Dr. Diane Harper of Dartmouth Medical School. “There’s no hurry. You can give it to someone who is 20, 25 or 30 and still have the same level of protection.”

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, run by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, has collected thousands of reports of health problems after Gardasil shots.

The fatalities include:

* A 17-year-old New York girl who collapsed and died on Feb. 22 this year, two days after the last of three Gardasil injections. An autopsy could not pinpoint the cause, but doctors suspect a heart-rhythm disorder.

* An 11-year-old who suffered a heart attack in May 2007, three days after a Gardasil shot. The nurse who reported it said a doctor blamed it on “an anaphylactic [severe allergic] reaction to Gardasil.” The feds could not confirm the case.

* A 12-year-old girl with no prior medical problems who died in her sleep on Oct. 6, 2007, three weeks after a Gardasil shot.

DR. John Iskander, the CDC’s acting director for immunization safety, said a review of 10 confirmed deaths found no common thread. Officials “concluded to the degree of certainty possible” that Gardasil wasn’t to blame.

“It’s tragic that young, apparently healthy people, do die,” Iskander said.

But he added that doctors hold special meetings weekly to review new cases, and compare them to prior ones.

Fainting is the main symptom linked to Gardasil, he said.

Merck spokeswoman Kelley Dougherty said the company “actively monitors” reports of side effects.

“An event report does not mean that a causal relationship between an event and vaccination has been established – just that the event occurred after vaccination,” she said.

A Post analysis of adverse- event reports filed through April 30 found that about 20 percent followed injections of Gardasil, plus up to seven other vaccines at the same time – including shots to prevent flu, chicken pox, hepatitis and tetanus. Almost 6,300 cases involved Gardasil alone.

Under a federal law passed in the late 1980s, victims of vaccines may file a claim under the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, but cannot sue the pharmaceutical.

Last year, the government added HPV to a list of vaccines, including polio, hepatitis and measles, granted immunity from suit.

If victims prove a vaccine likely caused injuries, the program pays a maximum $250,000 for death. The average payment for injury has been $1 million.

susan.edelman@nypost.com

And read this http://tyrashow.warnerbros.com/2008/07/is_gardasil_safe.php from the Tyra Banks show. Lots of ANECDOTAL comments,

You can read and decide for yourself. Personally, I think there's a real problem when Merck itself puts the fainting warning on information about Gardasil. Why on earth would a VACCINE make girls faint? :confused:

The way that this vaccine is promoted in magazines makes me sick.

[nodens]

For those others who are looking for information though not entirely about Gardasil this video does have some good information that you may gain something from watching.

http://wideeyecinema.com/?p=4053

Further I cannot find a list of ingredients of what is actually in the vaccine. Is there a list of all viruses, chemical compounds found in the vaccine? Many thanks in advance, I am still looking for general information as well so if you have any links I would greatly appreciate them.

Americana as for the fainting due to the vaccine according to the video that I linked above (as always leave and take from it as you will) she feels that the fainting and some of the other sideaffects that come with the fainting are actually visible signs of a mini-stroke - her words. As for the validity of the comment I am unsure.


Edit: Also as for Jane Burgermeister all of the links that I see about her are apparently about the H1N1 are there any links that you can provide that show comments on Gardasil?

[crocoduck]

David H. Gorski, MD, PhD, FACS is a surgical oncologist specializing in breast cancer and an Associate Professor of Surgery at the Wayne State University School of Medicine based at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute. An NIH-funded investigator whose primary research interests include tumor angiogenesis and the role of glutamate receptors in promoting the growth and metastasis of breast cancer, Dr. Gorski first became interested in pseudoscience and “alternative” medicine several years ago, when he wandered into the Usenet newsgroup misc.health.alternative and began critically examining the claims there.

HPV vaccination misinformation and bias in Medscape (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=98)
by David Gorski
from Science Based Medicine (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/)

Like many physicians, I often peruse Medscape (http://www.medscape.com/). It’s generally been a convenient and quick way to catch up on what’s going on in my field not directly related to my research, for which I tend to rely on pre-configured RSS feeds for PubMed searches to highlight any articles related to my areas of interest. Since these searches routinely flag hundreds of articles a week whose titles and abstracts I end up perusing, sometimes only cursorily to identify the articles I might want to read, it is impractical for me to rely on this approach for areas that are even only a bit out of my field. That’s where, at least so I thought, services like Medscape came in handy. I could look over stories and quickly find out about research and medical of interest to me, only occasionally needing to look up the actual journal articles. Like a fair number of physicians, I rely on it fairly regularly. I should also point out that Medscape sometimes even tries to go against the tide of woo, as it did when it published an article (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=132) authored by two of my co-bloggers, along with two others. The article, authored by Kimball C. Atwood IV, MD; Elizabeth Woeckner, AB, MA; Robert S. Baratz, MD, DDS, PhD; and Wallace I. Sampson, MD, entitled Why the NIH Trial to Assess Chelation Therapy (TACT) Should Be Abandoned (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/570625), was a tour de force deconstruction of why TACT is bad science and unethical to boot.

So how to explain an article published in Medscape last week and authored by Alison Gandey entitled HPV Vaccine Adverse Events Worrisome Says Key Investigator (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/578110)?

The article could have been a fair assessment of whether the risks of Gardasil are higher than reported. “Could have” is the operative phrase. Unfortunately, in among the real scientists quoted (and quoted rather selectively, I might add), Gandey parroted back a whole lot of antivaccination nonsense and a misunderstanding. I expect far better from Medscape. Unfortunately, this time I did not get it. For example, there was this howler from Gandey’s report:

"Members of the antivaccine movement point to a number of potential perils, including the presence of aluminum in injections. Like many vaccines, Gardasil contains aluminum salts. Each 0.5-mL dose contains approximately 225 μg of aluminum, 9.56 mg of sodium chloride, 0.78 mg of L-histidine, 50 μcg of polysorbate 80, 35 μg of sodium borate, and water."

Oh, no! Toxins (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9)! We’re poisoning the children! Won’t you help?!

I suppose I should be grateful that Gandey refrained from repeating the formaldehyde, antifreeze, or the ever-dreaded “fetal parts” gambit. On the other hand, although you may not know it, let me assure you that anti-vaccine advocates know the significance of mentioning borate (it’s a “roach killer (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x22416),” don’t you know?) or polysorbate 80, (it’s been linked to infertility in mice (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x22416)–supposedly). Remember my old “toxins” post (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9), and you’ll see how ridiculous these gambits are. For example, the rat study of the effects of polysorbate 80 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8473002?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) injected rats with amounts of the chemical that, by body weight, were incredibly high; nowhere near that amount is found in vaccines on a per weight basis. Similarly, I can’t figure out why L-histidine was included in this list. Histidine is an amino acid that’s found in virtually every protein in the body. It’s also an essential amino acid in growing children (http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/problem_sets/aa/aa.html#Essentialaa). That Gandey would even mention it along with aluminum and other ingredients in the context of antivaccinationists’ complaints about a “number of perils” shows a serious lack of understanding of nutrition and pharmacology. As for aluminum, as I’ve said many times before, now that mercury in vaccines is being increasingly exonerated (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14)as a cause or “trigger” for autism by multiple high quality studies and lots of science, aluminum is fast becoming the new mercury among antivaccinationists. This goes in stark contrast to science and clinical experience, where aluminum salts used as adjuvants have an 80 year track record of safety in vaccines (http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20040129/aluminum-in-vaccines-poses-no-harm). Nor is there any compelling evidence, as claimed by antivaccinationists, that it causes or contributes to Alzheimer’s disease.

Next, Gandey quotes Christiane Northrup, MD. Yes, that Christiane Northrup, Oprah Winfrey’s favorite OB/GYN (http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/13349) and a regular guest on her show, the doctor who has discussed with Oprah how women should use qi gong to direct their qi into their vaginas (http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=852) in order to achieve more powerful orgasms. Indeed, my co-blogger Harriet Hall, MD has deconstructed Dr. Northrup’s ideas (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=110), which, much like Andrew Weil’s, are a mix of the sensible and science-based thrown together haphazardly with a whole lot of woo to the point where it’s often hard to tell which is which. For instance, Dr. Nortrhup is an advocate of so-called “bioidentical hormones,” a highly dubious “rejuvenator” advocated by Suzanne Somers (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/11/from_the_ridiculous_to_the_sublime_a_jou.php) that lacks any plausible basis in scientific medicine, as Dr. Hall discussed a while back right here on this very blog (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=65) in the context of hormone replacement therapy.

Sadly, Dr. Northrup more than lived down to my expectations based on seeing her on Oprah. She exceeded in pseudoscience beyond even the dim view I generally have of her. Indeed, she did even worse than I would have expected, as she regurgitated a standard trope of germ theory denialists. Yes, germ theory denialists. I kid you not:

"Dr. Northrup recommended that the money going toward vaccines and related programs be allocated to general health and wellness initiatives and proper nutrition. This harkens back to the age-old debate between Louis Pasteur and Antoine Beauchamp, Dr. Northrup suggests.

For most of his career, Pasteur subscribed to germ theory, while Beauchamp backed the more unpopular theory of biological terrain. The question: Is it the germs themselves that make people sick or a weakened state of immunity that allows germs to take root? “Pasteur was widely supported, but on his death bed conceded that Beauchamp was right,” Dr. Northrup said during an interview. She suggests that this is what experts should be concentrating on now."

Here’s the problem. None of what Dr. Northrup claimed in the quote above is true, other than that there was a debate between Pasteur and Beauchamps in the late 1800s over the role of “seed versus soil” in infectious disease. That debate was settled long ago–and not in Beauchamps’ favor. Indeed, that Pasteur “recanted’ germ theory on his deathbed or admitted that “Beauchamps was right” after all represents nothing more than a myth promulgated by germ theory denialists (http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm) (shaking my head in disbelief, I still can’t fathom how it is that such people still exist in this day and age, but they do). Northrup simply parroted the same sort of misinformation beloved of “alternative” medicine advocates and especially germ thoery denialists, such as Bill Maher (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/is_bill_maher_really_that_ignorant_part.php), and Gandey serves up this quote without even bothering to check whether what Dr. Northrup said was, in fact, true.

Worse, Gandey fails to give any sort of context for the reports of 9,700 adverse reactions reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) (http://vaers.hhs.gov/). What people don’t understand about VAERS is that it’s not a good epidemiological for establishing strong evidence of causation, and it’s dubious even for correlation. Indeed, such was never its intent when it was designed. VAERS was originally intended as a “canary in the coalmine,” so to speak, in that anyone can report problems that occur in close temporal proximity to vaccines. It’s an early warning system, not a rigorously administered database. “Adverse events” reported don’t even have to be something that looks suspicious as having been caused by vaccines. Indeed, I still remember the infamous story of how Dr. Jim Laidler once reported to VAERS a most unusual complication from vaccination (http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism):

"The chief problem with the VAERS data is that reports can be entered by anyone and are not routinely verified. To demonstrate this, a few years ago I entered a report that an influenza vaccine had turned me into The Hulk. The report was accepted and entered into the database.

Because the reported adverse event was so… unusual, a representative of VAERS contacted me. After a discussion of the VAERS database and its limitations, they asked for my permission to delete the record, which I granted. If I had not agreed, the record would be there still, showing that any claim can become part of the database, no matter how outrageous or improbable."

In other words, just because a health problem or event is reported to VAERS does not mean that it was related to any vaccine. Moreover, whenever a reporter writes about VAERS, he or she should be aware that VAERS is very susceptible to corruption by publicity, well-meaning advocacy groups, or even litigation in a way that no other vaccine database is. As Dr. Laidler put it (http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism):

"Since at least 1998 (and possibly earlier), a number of autism advocacy groups have, with all the best intentions, encouraged people to report their autistic children–or autistic children of relatives and friends–to VAERS as injuries from thimerosal-containing vaccines. This has irrevocably tainted the VAERS database with duplicate and spurious reports."

It’s even worse than that, though. As was shown in a study by Michael J. Goodman and James Nordin published in the journal Pediatrics in 2006 (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/117/2/387), vaccine litigation has hopelessly corrupted the VAERS database. In the study, the authors, did something incredibly simple that no one had done before. They took data from the VAERS database from 1990 through 2003 and imported it into SAS data files for analysis. Then they searched the database using key words to look for reports associated with litigation, particularly with regards to autism. They also searched for records containing “thimerosal,” “mercury,” or “autism” in their fields, especially when coupled with terms like “lawyer,” “legal,” “attorney,” or “litigate,” while excluding records containing “legal” coupled with the term “guardian” that did not relate to litigation. They also excluded cases related to well characterized allergic reactions to thimerosal. Finally, they compared records from nonlitigation cases to those from litigation cases regarding symptomatology reported.

Not surprisingly, beginning in 2001, they noted a dramatic increase in the number of non-Lyme disease VAERS reports related to litigation, from only 7 in 2000 to 213 in 2002 and 108 in 2003. (They attributed the decline in 2003 reports to processing delays in creating public use files.) Next, they examined reports related to symptom sets. For autism, they observed a dramatic increase in the percentage of litigation-related reports from 0% of the reports related to litigation in 1999 to over one-third (35%) in 2002. For records mentioning thimerosal that weren’t related to allergic reactions, the rise was even more dramatic, from 0% of these reports related to litigation in 2000 to 87% in 2002.

Given that study from a couple of years ago, I have to wonder whether anti-vaccine advocacy groups, religious groups opposed to Gardasil on the grounds that it will “encourage promiscuity,” or potential litigants might be doing something similar with VAERS reports related to Gardasil. There’s no way of knowing yet because Gardasil is too new and there hasn’t been sufficient time to look at such trends and correlations in VAERS. In any case, the ease with which the VAERS database can be influenced by simple publicity (of which there has been a lot recently over Gardasil), advocacy, or litigation-driven reports is what makes it virtually useless for longitudinal studies or studies of correlation. It’s also why VAERS is so beloved of antivaccine pseudoscientists like Mark and David Geier, who love to go data mining (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/the_geiers_go_dumpsterdiving_y_1.php) in it for spurious correlations between vaccines and autism. The CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vsd/) is a much better resource for doing epidemiological studies about whether vaccines cause or contribute to specific adverse events or complications, not the least of which because reports are entered only by health care professionals and rigorous documentation is required.

Now, let’s take a closer look at those reported adverse events, shall we? The reason, of course, is that it’s not just Medscape that reports these VAERS numbers without context. CNN has the same thing (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/07/07/cervical.cancer.vaccine/index.html) recently, too, but I expect more of Medscape. Unfortunately, this time, I didn’t get it, and indeed Medscape appears this time to have done even worse a job than CNN. For example, when Medscape reports that 6% of the adverse events reported to VAERS were considered “serious,” as it turns out, this is less than half the 15% of reactions (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/08/cnn-spreads-hpv-vaccination-doubts/) reported as “serious” for other vaccines. Moreover, although there is a perfunctory mention from a spokesperson from Merck that it’s impossible to tell whether these events were related to vaccines or not, the overall impression left by the article is that there’s a strong reason to be concerned. This impression is reinforced by the relatively free rein given to Gardasil critics, even to the point of reporting nonsense spouted by Dr. Northrup, and the relatively little said by those supporting the safety of vaccines, complete with a heart-tugging anecdote of a suspected Gardasil-related complication. It’s also bolstered by the lack of anything resembling a serious discussion of why VAERS reports are very poor evidence for adverse events causation by a vaccine.

Left out for the most part was information to put these reports in context. For example, here’s what the American Cancer Society (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_6x_FAQ_HPV_Vaccines.asp) says about the possible link between Gardasil and Guillain-Barré syndrome or death:

"There have been 15 reports of sudden death after vaccination. The CDC says after careful review of the 10 reports that had adequate information for analysis, CDC could not establish the causal relationship between vaccination and death.

In addition, there had been 31 reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) after Gardasil vaccination in the U.S, ten of which had been confirmed as GBS. Of those 10, 5 reported vaccination with Menactra, a vaccine against meningitis, at the same time. Of the remaining 21 reports, 7 did not meet the case definition for GBS, one had symptoms of GBS prior to vaccination, 4 were unconfirmed reports, and 9 were pending additional follow-up. The CDC says the number of GBS cases reported are within the range that could be expected to occur by chance alone after a vaccination. CDC and FDA physicians and scientists continue to review all reports of serious side effects reported to VAERS to identify potential new vaccine safety concerns that may need further study. The American Cancer Society continues to monitor those reviews to ensure the safety of those who receive the vaccine, which has the potential to prevent the majority of the cases and deaths of cervical cancer."

It struck me as odd that none of this was discussed in the Medscape article. Where Gandey went wrong as well was in emphasizing doubts about the vaccine’s effectiveness above all else, whether valid concerns or not. For instance, she reported this quote:

"At the 2006 American Society of Clinical Oncology annual meeting, delegates were enthusiastic. One presenter showed a series of cervical cancer photos and told observers that “these types of pictures will soon disappear in clinical oncology.”

Unfortunately, that utopian prediction is unlikely. “Cervical cancer is not a vaccine-preventable disease,” Dr. Lippman said during an interview. And in her recent editorial, she points out that surrogate end points — not cervical cancer — were used to measure the efficacy in the clinical trials.

“No one would want to wait to see cervical cancer develop in participants,” she writes. “But the general failure to mention that the precancerous lesions chosen for study are not only potentially removable, most (those that are CIN 2) would probably have resolved on their own without any intervention, is arguable."

By this rationale, the MMR vaccine does not prevent subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) (http://www.encephalitis.info/TheIllness/TypesEncephalitis/SSPE.html), a rare but late complication of measles, and the influenza vaccine does not prevent flu-associated pneumonia. I realize that some advocates of the HPV vaccine sometimes have a distressing tendency to oversell its benefits or label everyone, not just religious fundamentalists who see Gardasil as the tool of the devil that will take away a penalty for premarital sex, questioning whether the HPV vaccine is ready for widespread use yet as ““anti-woman (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=22416&mesg_id=22418),” but it’s a mistake to go too far the other way and undersell the vaccine’s potential benefits as well. There’s also a difference between saying that a vaccine against HPV can prevent cervical cancer, which is what is claimed based on the data, and saying it’s a “cervical cancer vaccine,” which strikes me as a bit of a straw man characterization of what advocates of HPV vaccination actually do say about it.

In conclusion, let me just point out that, as one of the main resident vaccine advocates here on Science-Based Medicine, even I am not yet convinced entirely that state-recommended and state-funded mass vaccination programs with Gardasil or any other HPV vaccine are, at this stage, warranted by science and policy considerations. The reason is not so much that I am concerned that the vaccine is not safe or that it is not effective. Indeed, the evidence suggests that it is. Rather my concern emerges in the context of the entire vaccination program taken as a whole. One problem is the expense of Gardasil. Compared to other vaccines that protect against acute deadly diseases, it’s not cheap, and without the funds to pay for mass vaccination a lot of parents won’t be able to afford it if their health insurance won’t cover it. Worse, the poor and uninsured, who would be most likely to benefit from it, would be the most likely not to be able to afford it. Second, my concern lies in whether the evidence is such that the vaccine’s benefits outweigh its expense and risks by a margin comparable to that of other vaccines in the routine childhood vaccination schedule, which is what I consider a necessary burden of proof to be met before the vaccine is added as a routine part of the overall vaccination schedule. Personally, I’m of the belief that HPV vaccination is safe and probably a good idea, but I haven’t yet been convinced that a mass vaccination program is yet justified. I’m close, but I”m not quite there yet, and I don’t claim that some skepticism isn’t warranted. The problem is that skepticism demands accurate information about potential risks and benefits, and this Medscape article provided neither.

That being said, Medscape is supposed to be operating at a higher plane, scientifically speaking, than mainstream news outlets. It failed miserably in its responsibility by publishing this misinformation-laden and biased article that even went so far as to allow the parroting of germ theory denialism by someone as unqualified as Dr. Northrup. The debate over whether the HPV vaccine should become a regular part of the routine health care of girls in this country is an important one, and articles such as this Medscape article serve far more to confuse,rather than enlighten.

I guess I now know that I should be a lot more skeptical of anything published on Medscape. I spotted this because I know a bit about the issues involved. I’m not so sure I could spot a similar level of misinformation in articles regarding topics about which I am not as conversant. I like to think I can, but that’s probably a falsely reassuring self-delusion.

[motleyhoo]

Here is along list of Gardasil horror stories -->

http://www.naturalnews.com/Gardasil (http://www.naturalnews.com/GoogleSearchResults.html?q=gardasil&cx=010579349100583850635%3Aw_kzwe9_yca&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&sa.x=34&sa.y=14&sa=Search#1091)

.

[crocoduck]

Reports of Health Concerns Following HPV Vaccination. (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaers/gardasil.htm)

[skylinenorwich]

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3861/gardisil.jpg

Look at the logo - It could be an all seeing eye above a pyramid???

..I also would question why the 'G'of GARDASIL is larger than the other letters, even though they are all CAPITALS.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7959/magicg.jpg
The master letter G

What do you think?

[rodin]

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3861/gardisil.jpg

Look at the logo - It could be an all seeing eye above a pyramid???

..I also would question why the 'G'of GARDASIL is larger than the other letters, even though they are all CAPITAL

The master letter G

What do you think?

Very likely

Depopulation Pill

[crocoduck]

OK, about this whole depopulation thing - Why is it that the global population has been increasing in the face of this supposed conspiracy? It would seem that if such a conspiracy were true, whoever's running it is comically incompetent. Why is it that the evidence for so many of these conspiracies just happen to manifest themselves in such a way that's perfectly consistent with these conspiracies simply not existing?

[motleyhoo]

OK, about this whole depopulation thing - Why is it that the global population has been increasing in the face of this supposed conspiracy? It would seem that if such a conspiracy were true, whoever's running it is comically incompetent. Why is it that the evidence for so many of these conspiracies just happen to manifest themselves in such a way that's perfectly consistent with these conspiracies simply not existing?

Actually, only the populations of non-industrialized countries is increasing because of birth rate. Population growth is in decline in almost every western country, and over the last 50% years, healthy sperm counts have dropped by 50%.

.

[idgy]

Nodens,
Here is a brilliant website about all vaccines and a whole section on Gardasil.

http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html

My personal opinion about this jab, is that in a few year time when these poor girls try to start a family, they will find themselves infertile. That's if they haven't suffered from more immediate effects.

Jabbing girls as they come up to reproduction age reeks of mass sterilization to me.

Choose life.

idgy

[ustane]

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3861/gardisil.jpg

Look at the logo - It could be an all seeing eye above a pyramid???

..I also would question why the 'G'of GARDASIL is larger than the other letters, even though they are all CAPITALS.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7959/magicg.jpg
The master letter G

What do you think?

Ah. Also, take the word GARDASIL in reverse - LISADRAG: lizard rag? or am I jumping to conclusions, I don't know

[angelx666]

gardasil is to make girls inferitile - end of storey

[crocoduck]

Actually, only the populations of non-industrialized countries is increasing because of birth rate. Population growth is in decline in almost every western country, and over the last 50% years, healthy sperm counts have dropped by 50%.

.

This doesn't really respond to what I'm saying though. Since the population is increasing, this conspiracy, if it exists, is ridiculously incompetent at achieving its goal.

[motleyhoo]

This doesn't really respond to what I'm saying though. Since the population is increasing, this conspiracy, if it exists, is ridiculously incompetent at achieving its goal.

If the population is increasing and you want to slow it down, then how is hiding a sterilization agent in a vaccine incompetent? In fact, it is deviously clever, especially knowing that you can get away it because the sheeple are clueless.

.

[ustane]

Yes. It is disturbing. If the population is rising then all the more reason to do it if they want to depopulate.

[crocoduck]

If the population is increasing and you want to slow it down, then how is hiding a sterilization agent in a vaccine incompetent? In fact, it is deviously clever, especially knowing that you can get away it because the sheeple are clueless.

.

It isn't clever because it's 1. not accomplishing the goal of depopulation, and 2. shows a causal relationship to increased life expectancy. It's incompetent, if the goal is depopulation, because the results of such a plot are the exact opposite of the supposed aims.

[crocoduck]

Yes. It is disturbing. If the population is rising then all the more reason to do it if they want to depopulate.

How long do you think this depopulation plot has been going on? They seem to be doing it wrong.

[boots]

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/gardasil_h.html
GARDASIL (Merck (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/merck.htm) cervical cancer vaccine HPV4)
[back] The Vaccines (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/vaccines.html)http://www.whale.to/a/image/merck.png (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/hpv_vaccine.html)
[The latest killer (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_deaths.html) (27 have died as of August, 2008 USA1 (http://www.cynthiajanak.com/20081113Gardasiladifferentway.html)) disguised as safe (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/safer.html) and effective (http://www.whale.to/a/lie_effective.html), and a preventer, not cause, of Genital warts (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/vaers_warts_gardasil.html). If you want to trust them (Allopathy Inc) (http://www.whale.to/a/allopathy_h.html) over Human Papilloma virus (HPV) then you should know they haven't even proven any virus causes hepatitis, yet have lucrative tests and even a vaccine! (see (http://www.whale.to/a/hepatitis_tests_h.html)), and they like to use viruses as a cover for their disease causing products (1 (http://www.whale.to/v/polio2.htm),2 (http://www.whale.to/v/poisons.html),3 (http://www.whale.to/a/pharma_aids.html),4 (http://www.whale.to/w/bse.html),5 (http://www.whale.to/v/meningitis8.html),6 (http://www.whale.to/v/spanish_flu.html),7 (http://www.whale.to/a/smon_h.html)...), such as other vaccines (1 (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/cancer.html)) and drugs which are known causes of female cancers (1 (http://www.whale.to/a/tamoxifen_h.html), 2 (http://www.whale.to/drugs/hrt1.html), 3 (http://www.whale.to/drugs/pill.html) & see (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/lobato.html)), so with one (hidden) hand they cause the cancers, while with the other they sell you pseudo-cancer 'virus' insurance (see (http://www.whale.to/a/virus.html)).
Also, not only have they suppressed dozens of non-toxic effective cancer therapies (see (http://www.whale.to/a/cancer_c.html)), they have suppressed many non-Allopathic cures for viral infections such as Vitamin C, known for 57 years (1, (http://www.whale.to/a/levy4.html) 2 (http://www.whale.to/m/klenner.html)), herbal medicine (1 (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/paudarco.html), 2 (http://www.whale.to/y/herbal1.html)), Oxygen Therapy (http://www.whale.to/c/oxygen.html).and Electronic Medicine (http://www.whale.to/w/electronic.html). The knowledge and use of which would mean no one would fear cancer (see (http://www.whale.to/a/fear_dis.html)).
But that would be bad for business, and the Merck (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/merck.htm) killer bandits need to recoup some gold after their great Vioxx (http://www.whale.to/a/vioxx_h.html) massacre (27,000 heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths) caused by Vioxx, so another raid is in progress, and if you wanted any company to design an infertility vaccine (see: 1 (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_shot_implications.html), 2 (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/barr.html)) it would be Merck (1 (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/horowitz1.html))----'Tested on 100,000 ten year old girls in Africa.' (1 (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil223.html)). Not the first vaccine suspected of being used for that purpose (1 (http://www.whale.to/m/sterile.html)). Vaccine genocide (http://www.whale.to/v/biowarfare.html) shows they are capable of it, along with why they invented the HIV virus (see (http://www.whale.to/b/rappoport.html)), while they took 20 years to tell everyone Pellagra wasn't caused by one (see (http://www.whale.to/a/pellagra_h.html)), and they certainly don't want you knowing smallpox vaccination never saved a single life but was killing 25,000 infants every year at its height (see (http://www.whale.to/a/deathssmallpox.html)).
Not a story to inspire great confidence in this sodium borate (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sodium_borate.html), Aluminium (http://www.whale.to/y/aluminium.htm) and Tween 80 (http://www.whale.to/v/tween_80.html) containing vaccine (see (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_pi.pdf)). Run into the bushes with your kids and hide (see (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/flee.html)), a long tradition of African and Australian Aborigine mothers when the vaccine man calls. http://www.whale.to/b/images/pics/icon_wink.gif
Merck spent $841,000 for Internet ads alone relating to HPV in the first quarter of 2006 -- months before the FDA had even approved Gardasil (1 (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/merck_prom.html))]

Quotes (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/gardasil_q.html)
Media stories (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_damage.html)
Articles (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_a.html)
VAERS (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/vaers_gardasil.html)
VAERS Genital warts (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/vaers_warts_gardasil.html)http://www.whale.to/vaccine/news018a.jpg (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/my_girl_died.html)
Citations (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_citations.html)
Data sheet (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/hpvmer060806LB.pdf)
Gardasil deaths (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_deaths.html)
Gardasil Vaccine - side effects reporting (http://www.whale.to/vaccine/gardasil_vaccine.html)

[motleyhoo]

It isn't clever because it's 1. not accomplishing the goal of depopulation, and 2. shows a causal relationship to increased life expectancy. It's incompetent, if the goal is depopulation, because the results of such a plot are the exact opposite of the supposed aims.

That is actually not true. 1) birth rates have been in decline for decades among the most industrialized countries. 2) take a look at the US health care system and correlate cost to benefit and life expectancy. More and more money is being spent for less and less benefit, and life expectancy is actually beginning to decline. The sperm count among healthy males has dropped 50% over the last 50 years, mostly in the last 20. Cancer rates are increasing as are diabetes and cardiovascular disease, even tho the per capita vaccinations given is at an all time high.

I have not said tho that this was a depopulation plan. What I implied was that this particular swine flu scenario we are seeing unfold is beyond the pail in what global organizations are govts are doing and declaring. We have seen illnesses far more deadly sweep the globe that didn't have 1/10th the kind of repsonse we are seeing. That is no coincidence. It is quite possible that TPTB would like to implement some form of depopulation and just as possible that the swine flu scare is how they're going to do it.

But hey, because I love freedom, I will say that you have the freedom to keep your head in the sand.

.

[crocoduck]

That is actually not true. 1) birth rates have been in decline for decades among the most industrialized countries. 2) take a look at the US health care system and correlate cost to benefit and life expectancy. More and more money is being spent for less and less benefit, and life expectancy is actually beginning to decline. The sperm count among healthy males has dropped 50% over the last 50 years, mostly in the last 20. Cancer rates are increasing as are diabetes and cardiovascular disease, even tho the per capita vaccinations given is at an all time high.

I have not said tho that this was a depopulation plan. What I implied was that this particular swine flu scenario we are seeing unfold is beyond the pail in what global organizations are govts are doing and declaring. We have seen illnesses far more deadly sweep the globe that didn't have 1/10th the kind of repsonse we are seeing. That is no coincidence. It is quite possible that TPTB would like to implement some form of depopulation and just as possible that the swine flu scare is how they're going to do it.

But hey, because I love freedom, I will say that you have the freedom to keep your head in the sand.

.

Funny, I didn't say anything about birth rates, so you didn't contradict anything I said. There are reasons for lowering of birth rates, and they correlate well across the board with increased education. As people become more educated, they realize there is more to life than just raising children. Or that could be the reason for getting into higher education in the first place. So it makes perfect sense for birth rates to have a reverse correlation as education levels increase.

DEPOPULATION is about lowering the population. Since the population is increasing instead of decreasing, this alleged conspiracy is failing their alleged goal of depopulation. So if it exists, this conspiracy is hilariously incompetent at achieving its alleged goal.

Some of the reactions here are amusing though. If the population is decreasing, that proves a conspiracy. If it's increasing, that proves the motivation of the conspiracy. What if the population rate were completely level? Would that prove a conspiracy, too? Is there any possible circumstance which could disprove it? It seems like you guys have just about every possibility covered as supposedly proving your claims.

[motleyhoo]

Funny, I didn't say anything about birth rates, so you didn't contradict anything I said. There are reasons for lowering of birth rates, and they correlate well across the board with increased education. As people become more educated, they realize there is more to life than just raising children. Or that could be the reason for getting into higher education in the first place. So it makes perfect sense for birth rates to have a reverse correlation as education levels increase.

DEPOPULATION is about lowering the population. Since the population is increasing instead of decreasing, this alleged conspiracy is failing their alleged goal of depopulation. So if it exists, this conspiracy is hilariously incompetent at achieving its alleged goal.

Some of the reactions here are amusing though. If the population is decreasing, that proves a conspiracy. If it's increasing, that proves the motivation of the conspiracy. What if the population rate were completely level? Would that prove a conspiracy, too? Is there any possible circumstance which could disprove it? It seems like you guys have just about every possibility covered as supposedly proving your claims.

How would you know their depopulation plan is failing if they haven't done it yet? Mass swine flu vaccinations won't begin until October.

But also, birth rates may indeed have a direct link to a depopulation agenda. What better way to depopulate than the gradual sterilization of the people. If the plan is to use pesticides, nutrient deficient foods, prescription drugs, vaccinations, and pollution, then anyone with half a brain could only conclude that the plan is working quite well (if that is the plan).

.

[crocoduck]

How would you know their depopulation plan is failing if they haven't done it yet? Mass swine flu vaccinations won't begin until October.

But also, birth rates may indeed have a direct link to a depopulation agenda. What better way to depopulate than the gradual sterilization of the people. If the plan is to use pesticides, nutrient deficient foods, prescription drugs, vaccinations, and pollution, then anyone with half a brain could only conclude that the plan is working quite well (if that is the plan).

.

So you're saying the only part of this depopulation plan is the H1N1 vaccine? Were all of the other instances of fearmongering over vaccines, "chemtrails," pesticides, GM food, and so on and so on and so on a faked depopulation plan? All of those things have been around for quite some time, and both the population and life expectancy rates have increased along with them. So obviously the plan isn't working if it even exists. You just want your beliefs to be not subject to any kind of testing, which is why the implementation of these conspiracies always seems to be right around the corner. But it never ends up happening, and in the meantime people get rich scaring people into buying their worthless products to protect them from some made-up conspiracy.

[antinwo]

Think we have another MARPAT guys:D Are we ever going to get rid of Shills on this forum?????

[boots]

Think we have another MARPAT guys:D Are we ever going to get rid of Shills on this forum?????

*sigh*


No

[crocoduck]

Think we have another MARPAT guys:D Are we ever going to get rid of Shills on this forum?????

What if I were a shill? Shouldn't you still be able to prove me wrong with evidence or something?

And what's with this weird, fascistic desire to "get rid" of certain people? You must be pretty insecure in your beliefs if you need to stomp out any critical perspectives.

[antinwo]

What if I were a shill? Shouldn't you still be able to prove me wrong with evidence or something?

And what's with this weird, fascistic desire to "get rid" of certain people? You must be pretty insecure in your beliefs if you need to stomp out any critical perspectives.


So you are not even denying the fact that you are a shill, what a surprise:rolleyes: I don't have a belief system I just follow information and do my own research before I come to a conclusion, not like some. Anyway you still haven't proven to me that Mercury is not in vaccinations. Comon then where is your proof.

[crocoduck]

So you are not even denying the fact that you are a shill, what a surprise:rolleyes: I don't have a belief system I just follow information and do my own research before I come to a conclusion, not like some. Anyway you still haven't proven to me that Mercury is not in vaccinations. Comon then where is your proof.

I don't see why I should even address whether or not I'm a shill because it's irrelevant. What you're trying to do here is called an ad hominem attack because you are focusing on the person making the claim instead of the claim itself.

For example, it could be the case that you are being paid by the "alternative medicine" industry, but that wouldn't make your claims incorrect. The fact that there is no evidence for them does that quite nicely.

What would you accept as proof? What kind of evidence would you accept as a falsification of your beliefs?

[crocoduck]

I'm also still wondering why you're so insecure in your belief system that you feel the need to "get rid" of people who dissent from it. What's up with that? Isn't that even more of an indication of being a shill than simple disagreement? I don't feel any need to "get rid" of you, but you do for me. In what manner do you believe I should be "gotten rid of?"

[motleyhoo]

So you're saying the only part of this depopulation plan is the H1N1 vaccine? Were all of the other instances of fearmongering over vaccines, "chemtrails," pesticides, GM food, and so on and so on and so on a faked depopulation plan? All of those things have been around for quite some time, and both the population and life expectancy rates have increased along with them. So obviously the plan isn't working if it even exists. You just want your beliefs to be not subject to any kind of testing, which is why the implementation of these conspiracies always seems to be right around the corner. But it never ends up happening, and in the meantime people get rich scaring people into buying their worthless products to protect them from some made-up conspiracy.

Did you even read what I posted? I listed several things that could be part of a depopulation plan if such a plan exists.

Actually, population rates and birth rates have been on decline, and life expectancy is beginning to plateau.

The only people getting rich are the pharmaceutical companies selling millions of hyped up flu vaccines to any country they can get the WHO to scare into paying for them, and the lobbyists who are helping them push it. You should get a job with one of them, being you think vaccines and drug companies are so safe and all.

It isn't we who are spreading fear, it's the corporate conglomerates and the governmental/global institutions who serve them hyping up the "deadly swine flu" who are doing that.

.

[antinwo]

I don't see why I should even address whether or not I'm a shill because it's irrelevant. What you're trying to do here is called an ad hominem attack because you are focusing on the person making the claim instead of the claim itself.

For example, it could be the case that you are being paid by the "alternative medicine" industry, but that wouldn't make your claims incorrect. The fact that there is no evidence for them does that quite nicely.

What would you accept as proof? What kind of evidence would you accept as a falsification of your beliefs?

It is obvious that you are a shill cos you wont deny the fact that you are. Like I said before I have done a lot of research into the dangers of vaccination and that is from where I draw my conclusions. Whether you agree with me or not doesn't bother me TBH.

[antinwo]

I'm also still wondering why you're so insecure in your belief system that you feel the need to "get rid" of people who dissent from it. What's up with that? Isn't that even more of an indication of being a shill than simple disagreement? I don't feel any need to "get rid" of you, but you do for me. In what manner do you believe I should be "gotten rid of?"

I am not insecure with my beliefs and I do not work for someone like yourself trying to promote disinfo because you are so worried that people are waking up to your lies and filth. Go ahead and get your vaccines seen as though you think they are completely safe. There is nothing else to say here.

[crocoduck]

Did you even read what I posted? I listed several things that could be part of a depopulation plan if such a plan exists.

Actually, population rates and birth rates have been on decline, and life expectancy is beginning to plateau.

The only people getting rich are the pharmaceutical companies selling millions of hyped up flu vaccines to any country they can get the WHO to scare into paying for them, and the lobbyists who are helping them push it. You should get a job with one of them, being you think vaccines and drug companies are so safe and all.

It isn't we who are spreading fear, it's the corporate conglomerates and the governmental/global institutions who serve them hyping up the "deadly swine flu" who are doing that.

.

Yeah, I did read your post, and as I said in my response to it, all of those things have been around for quite a long time now. And yet the population and life expectancy have both gone UP and not DOWN.This is perfectly consistent with your depopulation conspiracy being fictitious.

LOL @ you claiming you're not fearmongering and enabling people who are getting rich off of it. "Alternative medicine" is big business. The only difference between them and people involved in real medicine is that the latter's been tested and has been proven to work. That's why "alternative medicine" is still "alternative" and not just medicine.

[crocoduck]

It is obvious that you are a shill cos you wont deny the fact that you are. Like I said before I have done a lot of research into the dangers of vaccination and that is from where I draw my conclusions. Whether you agree with me or not doesn't bother me TBH.

What difference would it make if I'm a shill? That's just an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy. If you want to convince someone you're right, instead of attacking people and trying to scare them, it might be better to try to respond to the actual claims made. If you have any serious studies by professionals which have been double-blinded, properly controlled, and peer reviewed which back up your beliefs, I'd love to see them. Thanks.

[crocoduck]

I am not insecure with my beliefs and I do not work for someone like yourself trying to promote disinfo because you are so worried that people are waking up to your lies and filth. Go ahead and get your vaccines seen as though you think they are completely safe. There is nothing else to say here.

You'd have to be pretty insecure in your beliefs to want to "get rid" of someone merely for disagreeing with them. If I'm spreading disinformation, feel free to provide legitimate sources containing evidence to the contrary. And just so you know, Oprah Winfrey, Jenny McCarthy, and the rest of the woo-peddling huckster businesspeople aren't legitimate sources. Thanks.

[snapdragon]

OK, about this whole depopulation thing - Why is it that the global population has been increasing in the face of this supposed conspiracy? It would seem that if such a conspiracy were true, whoever's running it is comically incompetent.

Because they have harvested/exhausted the caucasian who have gone through the industrial revolution, arts, music etc... now Caucasian are too big for their boots and come to the end of their development, they are no longer wealth producers Asians are part way through the process and next will be the negro.

[crocoduck]

Because they have harvested/exhausted the caucasian who have gone through the industrial revolution, arts, music etc... now Caucasian are too big for their boots and come to the end of their development, they are no longer wealth producers Asians are part way through the process and next will be the negro.

Races don't develop. Populations within species evolve, but the human population is too intertwined to be separated in the way in which you seem to want them to be.

[motleyhoo]

Yeah, I did read your post, and as I said in my response to it, all of those things have been around for quite a long time now. And yet the population and life expectancy have both gone UP and not DOWN.This is perfectly consistent with your depopulation conspiracy being fictitious.

LOL @ you claiming you're not fearmongering and enabling people who are getting rich off of it. "Alternative medicine" is big business. The only difference between them and people involved in real medicine is that the latter's been tested and has been proven to work. That's why "alternative medicine" is still "alternative" and not just medicine.

You are wrong. The rate of population growth is the key number, not population growth itself, and it is decreasing throughout the industrialized world. That is a fact!

Life expectancy has been going up for hundreds of years and for many reasons, but it has recently begun to plateau, meaning the rate of increase is falling, and it is falling at an increasing rate. That is also a fact!

And I never once said the swine flu hoax was a plan to depopulate the world. In fact, my belief is that it is nothing more than a grand hoax to maximize profit and control people, even tho vaccines are not safe and many will die or be permanently maimed by the vaccinations.

If you think "alternative medicine" can economically out-compete or spends more money on marketing and advertising than the conventional medical industry does then you are insane. Over 30% of MSM ad dollars now comes from drug companies. The FDA is actually paid by the drug companies to license their drugs. Most med school grants are now funded by drug companies. These things have corrupted the safety of our entire public health system. FACT!

This is my last reply to your pro-elitist ramblings because trying to reason with programmed, brainwashed, delusional people is a waste of time.

.

[antinwo]

You'd have to be pretty insecure in your beliefs to want to "get rid" of someone merely for disagreeing with them. If I'm spreading disinformation, feel free to provide legitimate sources containing evidence to the contrary. And just so you know, Oprah Winfrey, Jenny McCarthy, and the rest of the woo-peddling huckster businesspeople aren't legitimate sources. Thanks.

The evidence is out there and you know it. How about you show me what led you to your conclusions about vaccinations??

[crocoduck]

You are wrong. The rate of population growth is the key number, not population growth itself, and it is decreasing throughout the industrialized world. That is a fact!

Life expectancy has been going up for hundreds of years and for many reasons, but it has recently begun to plateau, meaning the rate of increase is falling, and it is falling at an increasing rate. That is also a fact!

And I never once said the swine flu hoax was a plan to depopulate the world. In fact, my belief is that it is nothing more than a grand hoax to maximize profit and control people, even tho vaccines are not safe and many will die or be permanently maimed by the vaccinations.

If you think "alternative medicine" can economically out-compete or spends more money on marketing and advertising than the conventional medical industry does then you are insane. Over 30% of MSM ad dollars now comes from drug companies. The FDA is actually paid by the drug companies to license their drugs. Most med school grants are now funded by drug companies. These things have corrupted the safety of our entire public health system. FACT!

This is my last reply to your pro-elitist ramblings because trying to reason with programmed, brainwashed, delusional people is a waste of time.

.

Depopulation means reducing the population.

The population is not being reduced. It is increasing.

Therefore, depopulation is not happening.

I don't think it can be made any simpler than that.

You can move the goalposts all you want, but the fact that your beliefs are based on a fiction is obvious.

Yes, "alternative medicine" (thankfully) can't compete with real medicine. That's because real medicine really works, and the "alternative" - not so much. Even with government bailouts like the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, they still just fail and fail and fail.

[crocoduck]

The evidence is out there and you know it. How about you show me what led you to your conclusions about vaccinations??

Actually, I don't know it. Show me the best example, please.

I posted several articles in this thread as well as the "vaccination thread" which outline evidence which contradicts the kind of fearmongering going on in places like this forum.

[antinwo]

Actually, I don't know it. Show me the best example, please.

I posted several articles in this thread as well as the "vaccination thread" which outline evidence which contradicts the kind of fearmongering going on in places like this forum.

Why should I have to show you evidence when you are not the sort of person who really wants it. You just want evidence to fit your belief system and unfortunately my evidence wont so I am not going to waste my time..

[crocoduck]

Why should I have to show you evidence when you are not the sort of person who really wants it. You just want evidence to fit your belief system and unfortunately my evidence wont so I am not going to waste my time..

What evidence do you have that I'm "not the sort of person who wants it?" Put up or shut up already.

[antinwo]

What evidence do you have that I'm "not the sort of person who wants it?" Put up or shut up already.

Do not tell me to shut up :mad:

[crocoduck]

Do not tell me to shut up :mad:

I'm giving you the option to put up or shut up. You can do one or the other if you like. Thanks.

[antinwo]

I'm giving you the option to put up or shut up. You can do one or the other if you like. Thanks.

I aint going to waste anymore of my time talking to disinfo agents like yourself. Now do yourself a favour and shut up. You are wasting your time on the Icke forum trying to convince people that vaccines are safe. Goodbye

[crocoduck]

I aint going to waste anymore of my time talking to disinfo agents like yourself. Now do yourself a favour and shut up. You are wasting your time on the Icke forum trying to convince people that vaccines are safe. Goodbye

So no evidence? None at all? What a shock!

How would you know I'm a "disinfo agent" if you don't even have any contrary evidence? LOL

[boots]

So no evidence? None at all? What a shock!

How would you know I'm a "disinfo agent" if you don't even have any contrary evidence? LOL

There is plenty of evidence. You just wont acknowledge it.

LOL

:rolleyes:

[antinwo]

There is plenty of evidence. You just wont acknowledge it.

LOL

:rolleyes:


:D

[crocoduck]

There is plenty of evidence. You just wont acknowledge it.

LOL

:rolleyes:


LOL, no there isn't. All you have are anecdotes, testimonies, and the opinions of quacks and hucksters.

[americana]

Don't feed the ducks (or the crocs!)

[crocoduck]

Don't feed the ducks (or the crocs!)

Yup, the best way to respond is to not present any evidence at all! That'll show 'em! LOL

[antinwo]

Yup, the best way to respond is to not present any evidence at all! That'll show 'em! LOL

Maybe we should show our 'CARTOON' evidence next time lol:D

[crocoduck]

Maybe we should show our 'CARTOON' evidence next time lol:D

Yeah, because I'm certain you actually bothered to go over any of the actual evidence presented. And what's this cartoon you're talking about? I posted a few comics, but no cartoons. I thought you were going to "get rid" of me. Whatever happened with that? LOL!

[antinwo]

Yeah, because I'm certain you actually bothered to go over any of the actual evidence presented. And what's this cartoon you're talking about? I posted a few comics, but no cartoons. I thought you were going to "get rid" of me. Whatever happened with that? LOL!

You are a shill that presents disinfo, nothing more nothing less now shut the croc up:D

[motleyhoo]

Please everyone, stop replying to crocoduck's posts. This person is only participating in these forums to intentionally work people up and create arguements in order to disrupt our discussions. That is called trolling, and the only way to stop it is to ignore them. Once they find out that their words have no affect they go away to pollute/poison/infect some other forum. In fact, this particlular person is likely causing problems in other forums already.

.

[crocoduck]

You are a shill that presents disinfo, nothing more nothing less now shut the croc up:D

Prove it.

[motleyhoo]

The first tremors of a coming Gardisil earthquake are beginning to rumble. You can already see a pattern forming that resembles the same historical patterns where certain vaccines turned out to be catastrophes.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WellnessNews/story?id=8368062

I will go out on a limb here and predict that this story is going to get much, much worse over the next couple of years, and many more parents will rue the day they gave into the propoganda and maimed their kids.

.

[antinwo]

Prove it.

I don't need to prove the fact that you are a shill. It is more than obvious.:D

[nodens]

Sorry for the bump.

My computer was down so I haven't been able to see this thread for a while. I wanted to thanks everyone that contributed seriously to the discussion and I shall pass it on to my sister. Many thanks again.

All the best,
Nodens