Terrorist attacks in Spain? [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 09:17 PM

ETA want the Basque lands that France & Spain stole from them, back.

Exactly,it appears most do not see the bigger picture,at least some do,

People need to stop listening to the Ministry of truth,;)

Party ownership of the print media
made it easy to manipulate public opinion,
and the film and radio carried the process further.

16. Ministry Of Truth (Lies)

The Ministry of Truth, Winston's place of work, contained, it was said, three thousand rooms above ground level, and corresponding ramifications below.

The Ministsry of Truth concerned itself with Lies. Party ownership of the print media made it easy to manipulate public opinion, and the film and radio carried the process further.

The primary job of the Ministry of Truth was to supply the citizens of Oceania with newspapers, films, textbooks, telescreen programmes, plays, novels - with every conceivable kind of information, instruction, or entertainment, from a statue to a slogan, from a lyric poem to a biological treatise, and from a child's spelling-book to a Newspeak dictionary.

Winston worked in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT (a single branch of the Ministry of Truth) editing and writing for The Times. He dictated into a machine called a speakwrite. Winston would receive articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, in Newspeak, rectify. If, for example, the Ministry of Plenty forecast a surplus, and in reality the result was grossly less, Winston's job was to change previous versions so the old version would agree with the new one. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs - to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance.

When his day's work started, Winston pulled the speakwrite towards him, blew the dust from its mouthpiece, and put on his spectacles. He dialed 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to rectify.

In the walls of the cubicle there were three orifices. To the right of the speakwrite, a small pneumatic tube for written messages; to the left, a larger one for newspapers; and on the side wall, within easy reach of Winston's arm, a large oblong slit protected by a wire grating. This last was for the disposal of waste paper. Similar slits existed in thousands or tens of thousands throughout the building, not only in every room but at short intervals in every corridor. For some reason they were nicknamed memory holes. When one knew that any document was due for destruction, or even when one saw a scrap of waste paper lying about, it was an automatic action to lift the flap of the nearest memory hole and drop it in, whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building.

As soon as Winston had dealt with each of the messages, he clipped his speakwritten corrections to the appropriate copy of The Times and pushed them into the pneumatic tube. Then, with a movement which was as nearly as possible unconsicious, he crumpled up the original message and any notes that he himself had made, and dropped them into the memory hole to be devoured by the flames.

What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.

In the cubicle next to him the little woman with sandy hair toiled day in day out, simply at tracking down and deleting from the Press the names of people who had been vaporized and were therefore considered never to have existed. And this hall, with its fifty workers or thereabouts, was only one-sub-section, a single cell, as it were, in the huge complexity of the Records Department. Beyond, above, below, were other swarms of workers engaged in an unimaginable multitude of jobs.

There were huge printing-shops and their sub editors, their typography experts, and their elaborately equipped studios for the faking of photographs. There was the tele-programmes section with its engineers, its producers and its teams of actors specially chosen for their skill in imitating voices; clerks whose job was simply to draw up lists of books and periodicals which were due for recall; vast repositories where the corrected documents were stored; and the hidden furnaces where the original copies were destroyed.

And somewhere or other, quite anonymous, there were the directing brains who co-ordinated the whole effort and laid down the lines of policy which made it necessary that this fragment of the past should be preserved, that one falsified, and the other rubbed out of existence.

1984 IS HERE FOLKS,I HAVE NOTICED SINCE THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN THE MSM SKY AND BBC NEWS PIRATES RATINGS HAVE GONE UP,MORE BULLSHIT TO FEED THE MASSES.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 09:18 PM

Brave people, these bastards of ETA, trying to kill yesterday 41 CHILDREN. Look at the pictures of the building that they attacked yesterday in Burgos. It is a miracle that nobody died.
Any political movement that try to kill innocent people and children deserve the calification of BASTARDS.
Look what brave, look:

http://www.estadao.com.br/fotos/spain_eta_reuters.jpg

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 09:22 PM

brave people, these bastards of eta, trying to kill yesterday 41 children. Look at the pictures of the building that they attacked yesterday in burgos. It is a miracle that nobody died.
Any political movement that try to kill innocent people and children deserve the calification of bastards.
Look what brave, look:

http://www.estadao.com.br/fotos/spain_eta_reuters.jpg

hmm let me think who did 911,7>7,all the bombings in iraq,remember the spanish inquisition I could go in.etc etc.

check post 104, http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26466&page=11

take the blinkers off sunshine.

Knights of malta,http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75264 Click on link.

How many thousands killed in the middle east?????????????????

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 09:26 PM

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 09:48 PM

I feel ashamed of the people of this forum trying to justify violence for a stupid think like INDEPENDENCE of what? a country? they own the land? are they different?
I tell you what, in the Basque country the nationalist polititians spread the idea that they (Basques) have a different type of blood, different from Spaniards. They have been growing the hate between regions during the last years.

Thousands of people in wheelchairs, thousands of people without legs, arms, orphans, widows, this is what ETA leaves behind.
And don't tell me this is a good cause, cause I know an innocent person that died in an ETA shooting, and his only mistake was to be in the wrong place at the wrong moment.

HEY MATE,

No one is justifying violence but when people are oppressed and no one is listening ,Violence is usually the outcome,

I see you checked the links I posted,the Elites and TPTB are the biggest scumbag murderers on the planet and that includes King Juan the anti christ.

Get it.

and the Basques do have a high majority of rhesus neg blood also.http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml

Two facts set the Basque peoples apart from the other Europeans who have dominated the continent the past 3,000 years: (1) The Basque language is distinctly different; and (2) The Basques have the highest recorded level of Rh-negative blood (roughly twice that of most Europeans), as well as substantially lower levels of Type B blood and a higher incidence of Type O

You have been listening to the MSM ministry of truth BS for to long by the sounds of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco

http://vaulterjohn.tripod.com/King_Juan_Carlos.htm

Click on links and you may start to get it,

also do you not think the Spanish powers that be may do a few false flags of their own also.

They have killed and maimed more people than anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ju7754pXU

Pan's Labyrinth takes place in Spain in May and June, 1944, after the Spanish Civil War, during the Franquist repression.

You need to watch this film.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:11 PM

HEY MATE,

No one is justifying violence but when people are oppressed and no one is listening ,Violence is usually the outcome,

I see you checked the links I posted,the Elites and TPTB are the biggest scumbag murderers on the planet and that includes King Juan the anti christ.

Get it.

and the Basques do have a high majority of rhesus neg blood also.http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml

Two facts set the Basque peoples apart from the other Europeans who have dominated the continent the past 3,000 years: (1) The Basque language is distinctly different; and (2) The Basques have the highest recorded level of Rh-negative blood (roughly twice that of most Europeans), as well as substantially lower levels of Type B blood and a higher incidence of Type O

You have been listening to the MSM ministry of truth BS for to long by the sounds of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco

First, nobody is opressed in Spain. I'm Spaniard, I know what I'm talking about, and I know the people and problems of my country.

Second, the Protestant Church actually killed and burned more people than the Spanish Inquisition. Both churches must shut up, the Protestant and the Catholic. By the way Spain is a secular country, you can have the religion you want.

Third, Spaniards conquered America, but at least the Indians survived and now lead their countries. What about the US? oh, yeah, indians are in reserves and they tried to exterminate them all. In the South Americans countries there was an integration and in the US extermination.

Francisco Franco died 34 years ago. Spain now is a free country.

Almost ALL Spaniards want a republic, free from the king. And no doubt we are going to have a Republic soon.

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:13 PM

First, nobody is opressed in Spain. I'm Spaniard, I know what I'm talking about, and I know the people and problems of my country.

Second, the Protestant Church actually killed and burned more people than the Spanish Inquisition. Both churches must shut up, the Protestant and the Catholic. By the way Spain is a secular country, you can have the religion you want.

Third, Spaniards conquered American, but at least the indians survived and now lead their countries. What about the US? oh, yeah, indians are in reserves and they tried to exterminate them all. In the South Americans countries there was an integration and in the US extermination.

Francisco Franco died 34 years ago. Spain now is a free country.

Almost ALL Spaniards want a republic, free from the kind. And no doubt we are going to have a Republic soon.

Rubbish take the blinkers off.

How old are you?

No one in this world is free mate:rolleyes:

All these elites pee in the same pot.

King Juan Carlos was born in Rome, Italy on January 5, 1938 A.D.. His full name is, "Juan Carlos Alfonso Victor Maria de Borbon y Borbon". His father's full name was, "Juan Carlos Teresa Silverio Alfonso de Borbon y Borbon". His father was in exile from Spain while Francisco Franco ruled Spain following Franco's overthrow of the Spanish monarchy. Juan Carlos (the son), from the age of 10, was personally trained under Franco's direction, and graduated from all three of Spain's military academies.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:16 PM

Rubbish take the blinkers off.

How old are you?

No one in this world is free mate:rolleyes:

All these elites pee in the same pot.

Yes, same question, how old are you?

I'm almost 40. I've seen a lot of things guy.
And yes, I'm free, cause I don't believe in any country, religion, political movement..I believe in myself and in the good people.

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:18 PM

Yes, same question, how old are you?

I'm almost 40. I've seen a lot of things guy.
And yes, I'm free, cause I don't believe in any country, religion, political movement..I believe in myself and in the good people.

Well you have not lived to have such a blinkered view of the world.

So what things have you seen in the world??

King Juan Carlos was born in Rome, Italy on January 5, 1938 A.D.. His full name is, "Juan Carlos Alfonso Victor Maria de Borbon y Borbon". His father's full name was, "Juan Carlos Teresa Silverio Alfonso de Borbon y Borbon". His father was in exile from Spain while Francisco Franco ruled Spain following Franco's overthrow of the Spanish monarchy. Juan Carlos (the son), from the age of 10, was personally trained under Franco's direction, and graduated from all three of Spain's military academies.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75264

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:20 PM

Well you have not lived to have such a blinkered view of the world.

So what things have you seen in the world??

King Juan Carlos was born in Rome, Italy on January 5, 1938 A.D.. His full name is, "Juan Carlos Alfonso Victor Maria de Borbon y Borbon". His father's full name was, "Juan Carlos Teresa Silverio Alfonso de Borbon y Borbon". His father was in exile from Spain while Francisco Franco ruled Spain following Franco's overthrow of the Spanish monarchy. Juan Carlos (the son), from the age of 10, was personally trained under Franco's direction, and graduated from all three of Spain's military academies.

Answer me, how old are you? what kind of world have you seen?
Are you more Spanish than me to know the problems of my country?

astrochicken

30-07-2009, 10:20 PM

ETA want the Basque lands that France & Spain stole from them, back.

Stole? what are you talking about? I suggest you to read a bit of history of Spain. ETA is against their own people, the people that live in the Basque Country and want PEACE.
Spain is a free country, the regions have the right to use their own language, they have their own education, taxes, etc. A minory in the Basque Country wants independence. The rest feel united and live in harmony with Spain.

ETA yesterday tried to kill 41 CHILDREN by puting a car bomb in front of a building. By miracle, they were only injured. Are they brave, isn't it? trying to kill innocent children!

"The way it is" you are utterly convinced that you percieve things the only correct way.
Sorry, i don't want to burst your bubble but i'm not the only one who thinks you might be talking out your arse.

Gora Euskadi

Ever heard of a lauburu?
These things, as is the basque identity, are much, much older than the artificial construct called "spain".
Read up on YOUR history and you might realize what it's about.

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/4/0/0/4/11949852531320261371lauburu_aitor_avila_.svg.med.p ng

That aside.. this bombing was probably western intelligence services.. just as a wee reminder that people should still be
*terrified* because of the ongoing "war on terror" (remember that?)

"arrrghhhg... shriek.... HELPPPPP.. Do something PLEASE!"

Condolences to those that died.

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:22 PM

Answer me, how old are you? what kind of world have you seen?
Are you more Spanish than me to know the problems of my country?

I see you are avoiding the questions I asked first,if you research my posts you may know.

The Knights of Malta are the militia of the Pope, and are sworn to total obedience by a blood oath which is taken extremely seriously and to the death. The Pope as the head of the Vatican is also the head of a foreign national power.”

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:22 PM

Ok, I will appreciate that any administrator cancel my subscription from this forum.
I won't tolerate anyone to justify terrorist attacks.
Do you know my country? the answer is NO

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:23 PM

"The way it is" you are utterly convinced that you percieve things the only correct way.
Sorry, i don't want to burst your bubble but i'm not the only one who thinks you might be talking out your arse.

Ever heard of a lauburu?
These things, as is the basque identity, are much, much older than the artificial construct called "spain".
Read up on YOUR history and you might realize what it's about.

Gora Euskadi
http://www.clker.com/cliparts/4/0/0/4/11949852531320261371lauburu_aitor_avila_.svg.med.p ng

That aside.. the bombing was probably western intelligence services.. just a wee reminder that people should be *terrified*.
"arrrghhhg... shriek.... HELPPPPP.. Do something PLEASE!"

Condolences to those that died.

Good Post.

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:24 PM

Ok, I will appreciate that any administrator cancel my subscription from this forum.
I won't tolerate anyone to justify terrorist attacks.
Do you know my country? the answer is NO

Yes run off like a headless chicken and do not accept the light of reality.

The whole world is being lied to.

We are trying to give you some knowledge.

TPTB are the real Terrorists.

I know your country.

The Knights of Malta are the militia of the Pope, and are sworn to total obedience by a blood oath which is taken extremely seriously and to the death. The Pope as the head of the Vatican is also the head of a foreign national power.”

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75264

You really think Terrorists did the Madrid Bombings?

http://www.rense.com/general50/east.htm

Very Dark forces run this world mate,and sooner people realise this the better for humanity.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:27 PM

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:32 PM

No, you don't know my country at all.

Any administrator that can cancel my subscription?

I don't want to run as a chicken. It is that to listen to people that justify terrorism make me want to throw up.

Just read the info above I have posted,you just cannot accept it,because it is to much for you to handle,most people are usually like this at first,but at least the seed as been planted,you will realise soon enough,that's why you are here in the 1st place.

No one wants Violence,but it is a bigger picture going on here.

You really think Terrorists did the Madrid Bombings?

We Know Enough About Madrid To Determine Who Did It

http://www.rense.com/general50/east.htm

and I have a feeling this was just another inside job and someone will be framed for it.

and Yes I do know your country.http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75264

Ignorance is Bliss I suppose for some.

lizzy

30-07-2009, 10:36 PM

Ok, I will appreciate that any administrator cancel my subscription from this forum.
I won't tolerate anyone to justify terrorist attacks.
Do you know my country? the answer is NO

LOL.:rolleyes::eek: :) bye bye :p

edit...not to be mean.......but the truth is hard to take and if you can't see it....itis best you get out now, because the journey once started upon is a horror show.....stay with the lies........there is an old saying,.....'ignorance is bliss'....( but it might get you killed to).good luck.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:40 PM

Just read the info above I have posted,you just cannot accept it,because it is to much for you to handle,most people are usually like this at first,but at least the seed as been planted,you will realise soon enough,that's why you are here in the 1st place.

No one wants Violence,but it is a bigger picture going on here.

You really think Terrorists did the Madrid Bombings?

We Know Enough About Madrid To Determine Who Did It

http://www.rense.com/general50/east.htm

and I have a feeling this was just another inside job and someone will be framed for it.

and Yes I do know your country.http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75264

Ignorance is Bliss I suppose for some.

I'm not talking in any moment of the MADRID bombs, jesus...

I'm talking about the bomb of yesterday in BURGOS. Do you know where it is? And it was ETA, they have admitted.
The picture I posted was about yesterday's bombs. Jesus.
You don't know even what I'm talking about.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:45 PM

mikethepunk

30-07-2009, 10:46 PM

mikethepunk

30-07-2009, 10:47 PM

rodin

30-07-2009, 10:50 PM

Where's the 52?

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:50 PM

All terrorist groups are sponsored and run by the New World Order.

WAKE UP.

And this show that you didn't even read my post and analized it.
I said that ETA was trained by IRA and is/was trained in Colombia by the FARCS.
I said how they even get the money.
They all are terrorist trying to create chaos. They don't want peace, they want terror.

mikethepunk

30-07-2009, 10:52 PM

And this show that you didn't even read my post and analized it.
I said that ETA was trained by IRA and is/was trained in Colombia by the FARCS.
I said how they even get the money.
They all are terrorist trying to create chaos. They don't want peace, they want terror.

and the IRA was trained by the BRITS (NWO).

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 10:52 PM

29 of July, bomb attack in a building of Burgos, 61 injureds, 41 children. It was ETA.
30 of July, bomb attack with a car filled with explosives in Mallorca. Two persons died. It was ETA.
They have deactivated today another car full of explosives. It was ETA.

Who mentioned MADRID? JESUS, you don't know even what I'm talking about.

Why do you keep doing 2 posts,show the evidence all these attacks were ETA?

I smell something funny here,common purpose maybe.

Ignoring the tons of info and just repeating yourself.

Madrid its all linked sunny.

Maybe I need to bump the info you have not looked at.

mikethepunk

30-07-2009, 10:54 PM

I guess my point was :
to run from this forum because of what one poster said is cowardice, straight up.

How are you going to fight the NWO and then run away because of what one person said? Believe me there will always be someone that doesnt agree with you and there will always be someone pissing you off. There are too many souls that are not living in peace and that are dominated by the negative side of their ego.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:55 PM

and the IRA was trained by the BRITS (NWO).

Ok man, but I'm agree in the esential, the problem is that you don't listen.
I said that is someone-something behind ETA, and that they don't want the independence, they just want chaos.
Yesterday they put a bomb in Spain, and today, two.
This about opression of the Basque country is bullshit. ETA is a terrorist band, financed by WHO the hell knows (FARC, international drug business, extortions)

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 10:58 PM

Why do you keep doing 2 posts,show the evidence all these attacks were ETA?

I smell something funny here,common purpose maybe.

Ignoring the tons of info and just repeating yourself.

Madrid its all linked sunny.

Maybe I need to bump the info you have not looked at.

But god damn it, if they even have recognized they put the bombs of yesterday and today!

Listen, Madrid bombs have nothing to do with ETA. This is other history.

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 11:00 PM

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 11:06 PM

and the IRA funded by the American military complex,I wonder who killed Kennedy,the terrorists,get outta here.

The terrorists they are everywhere,TPTB are the terrorists matey.

The Madrid bombings have everything to do with it.

Madrid bombings have to do with a lot of things, there are so many theories that we don't even know the truth here in Spain. But one thing is for sure, nobody believes the official version of the story. Some people said ETA was also involved, other said that was ETA and the CIA, others that only the CIA.

What I said is that the two bombings of this week are made by ETA. Who is behind ETA? nobody knows for sure, as I said in my previous posts. But be sure that they don't act because of some bullshit like "independence of an opressed country".

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 11:07 PM

Madrid bombings have to do with a lot of things, there are so many theories that we don't even know the truth here in Spain. But one thing is for sure, nobody believes the official version of the story. Some people said ETA was also involved, other said that was ETA and the CIA, others that only the CIA.

What I said is that the two bombings of this week are made by ETA. Who is behind ETA? nobody knows for sure, as I said in my previous posts. But be sure that they don't act because of some bullshit like "independence of an opressed country".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJxfsrtnRHc

Open your mind,or maybe you do not want to.

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 11:09 PM

HEY MATE,

No one is justifying violence but when people are oppressed and no one is listening ,Violence is usually the outcome,

I see you checked the links I posted,the Elites and TPTB are the biggest scumbag murderers on the planet and that includes King Juan the anti christ.

Get it.

and the Basques do have a high majority of rhesus neg blood also.http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml

Two facts set the Basque peoples apart from the other Europeans who have dominated the continent the past 3,000 years: (1) The Basque language is distinctly different; and (2) The Basques have the highest recorded level of Rh-negative blood (roughly twice that of most Europeans), as well as substantially lower levels of Type B blood and a higher incidence of Type O

You have been listening to the MSM ministry of truth BS for to long by the sounds of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco

http://vaulterjohn.tripod.com/King_Juan_Carlos.htm

Click on links and you may start to get it,

also do you not think the Spanish powers that be may do a few false flags of their own also.

They have killed and maimed more people than anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ju7754pXU

Pan's Labyrinth takes place in Spain in May and June, 1944, after the Spanish Civil War, during the Franquist repression.

You need to watch this film.

Bumped for repeaters,you soon got through the info:rolleyes:

You are sticking out like a sore thumb mate.

you have 2 sides to a brain,try and use it.

Its the terrorists,its reminds me of George Orwell or the Brasil film .

mikethepunk

30-07-2009, 11:12 PM

Ok man, but I'm agree in the esential, the problem is that you don't listen.
I said that is someone-something behind ETA, and that they don't want the independence, they just want chaos.
Yesterday they put a bomb in Spain, and today, two.
This about opression of the Basque country is bullshit. ETA is a terrorist band, financed by WHO the hell knows (FARC, international drug business, extortions)

Maybe I could understand you if you knew how to write in English because honestly your broken english makes no fucking sense and you are still a coward for wanting to leave this site because someone hurt your feelings.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 11:12 PM

Maybe is you the one that need to listen, cause you repeate your information, maybe you are the repeater.
You don't even analyze the information I give you or try to understand.

I know this video of David Icke from long time ago. So you don't need to repeate, please.

thewayitis

30-07-2009, 11:14 PM

Maybe I could understand you if you knew how to write in English because honestly your broken english makes no fucking sense and you are still a coward for wanting to leave this site because someone hurt your feelings.

At least I try to communicate with my "broken english". I'd like to read your Spanish. No Spanish right? I see

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 11:17 PM

astrochicken

31-07-2009, 02:57 PM

At least I try to communicate with my "broken english". I'd like to read your Spanish. No Spanish right? I see

Nice, that you are still here.

The Powers that Be ARE the Terrorists.

Ever seen the Life or Brian?

They invent things like the "Judean People's Liberation Front", or the "People's Liberation Front of Judea"

and then call them terrorists.

Are there terrorists?
Sure there are , and they get their orders from people called King "this" or Queen "that".

and besides... the "basques" really are totally unique on this wee blue planet.

decim

31-07-2009, 03:12 PM

Basque saying.

"Before God was God and boulders were boulders, the Basques were already Basques."

erdo

31-07-2009, 04:53 PM

I just want to point out that knowing a country it is not just to swim in the sea, to take a sunbath or to take a beer in the "chiringuitos". I say it because terrorist attacks are unjustifiable, specially if your blood is different.

erdo

31-07-2009, 05:06 PM

Maybe the Rockefellers were behind it.

is there any "evidence", document or anything which can lead somehow to come to that conclusion?

Ian2day

31-07-2009, 06:14 PM

Carried out by the same people that took down the Air France plane from Brazil. Who also shot the pizza delivery guy in NI. Carried out the 7/7 attacks of London. Attacked the Romany people in NI. Killed MJ. Ponzi schemes. Diamond heists. Organs for sale. Trafficking and a whole host of other goings on.

astrochicken

31-07-2009, 08:52 PM

Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

It really is that simple.

No Terrorism=>No Fear=>One Consciousness=>They lose.

cpfc12

31-07-2009, 08:53 PM

bob_jones

01-08-2009, 02:53 AM

Don't miss my two peneth on ETA folks, they have some real babes and they are well cool.

Not that bombs are cool, but there is usually another side of killing by the state that goes unreported.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75462

hunter77

01-08-2009, 04:09 AM

Maybe I could understand you if you knew how to write in English because honestly your broken english makes no fucking sense and you are still a coward for wanting to leave this site because someone hurt your feelings.

give the guys english a break, why dont you write a reply in spanish:rolleyes:
its ok to make valid points, but dont pick on someone for conversing in a foreign language:(

bob_jones

01-08-2009, 05:49 AM

Yea and the British Royal Family decided they were "Divine" at Bilderburg meetings and so were guided by God to Blow up Madrid on 11/03/04.

How do you say FU Pedro in Spanish, because they all went along with it for money, the horse's cock sucker King Philip included...

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69088&highlight=pedro

adbasque

01-08-2009, 06:01 AM

We can change the term, STA.
State Terrorist Attack.

It will make things much clearer to some people :)

adbasque

01-08-2009, 06:11 AM

Hola.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJxfsrtnRHc

Why do people join the David Icke Forum :confused: and do not beleive TPTB are corrupt,does not make any sense?,OH yes it does to try and convince people and sway their minds.

Sorry mate X forces, I know what goes in the military intelligence services.

That is exactly what it is mate:

They join this forum for many reasons:
First to spy on the truthers:
then
They try and discredit their opponents (truth seekers)
They try and disrupt good debates
They try and hijack genuine threads and topics
They try and confuse people
They try the ridicule tactic
They play dumb to lower the level of awarness, this is very commonly used.
Just like the BBC's 7/7 Programme.
They use practically every technique in the book.

Their aims are not the same as yours and mine and the genuine people here on this forum, they are not interested in any truth, they try and bury the truth anyway they can.

T

adbasque

01-08-2009, 06:24 AM

trained by mi6 IRA gangsters

Half of the IRA members are MI6 agents.
ETA was also an infiltrated organisation, it started years and years ago, they wanted their independance.

ETA started as early as the late 50s, they didn't want to be under the French and Spanish ruling, just like the Bretons of France.

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) it means Basque territory and freedom.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/58/ETAlogo.jpg/200px-ETAlogo.jpg

Bietan jarrai

I used to live in the Basque country between France and the Spanish borders, in a place called Dinnar, Saint Jean de Luz.
I know a little bit about their culture and their struggle.
Not quite like the IRA slightly different.
Irish republican Army did not recognise the Irish army or Government as legitimate, but soon after it's creation it was infiltrated and ran by the MI6 and the Irish secret services.
So the two are very similar, some members of the IRA have trained with ETA members back in the early 70s and 80s, in Lybia

lightgiver

02-08-2009, 03:01 AM

That is exactly what it is mate:

They join this forum for many reasons:
First to spy on the truthers:
then
They try and discredit their opponents (truth seekers)
They try and disrupt good debates
They try and hijack genuine threads and topics
They try and confuse people
They try the ridicule tactic
They play dumb to lower the level of awarness, this is very commonly used.
Just like the BBC's 7/7 Programme.
They use practically every technique in the book.

Their aims are not the same as yours and mine and the genuine people here on this forum, they are not interested in any truth, they try and bury the truth anyway they can.

T

yes adbasque;);then they come back and add pictures trying to sway peoples minds with propaganda pics:

all one as to do is take a look around :it is well easy to spot these people now:

Please People remember to not let your emotions cloud your minds:

This is how the elite physhos work;they come on here and profile.

they have had thousands of years of experience.

BTW your name rhymes with Basque;)

ITS THE ELITE PSYCHOS WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS/REMEMBER 911:

YOU CAN FOOL THE PEOPLE SOMETIMES BUT YOU CANT FOOL THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME

the nine

02-08-2009, 03:26 AM

99 percent of the terror attacks are done by the NWO.

Think about that....if these criminals had not been manipulating mankind for 1000's of years, the people of planet earth would be living in peace with each other. These disgusting criminals are going to go down and if I have to reincarnate to keep fighting these bastards until they are all dead, I will.

I suggest everyone google or search engine "George Washington's vision at Valley Forge" and then Americans get ready, at least spiritually, for what is coming here in America.

There will be another civil war here in the states and it is going to be the real America (the one of the fore fathers and constitution) against the NWO.

Americans need to read the vision of George Washington. It is so important.

wasnt george washinton a 33rd degree free mason though?

erdo

02-08-2009, 04:54 AM

adbasque

02-08-2009, 05:28 AM

yes adbasque;);then they come back and add pictures trying to sway peoples minds with propaganda pics:

all one as to do is take a look around :it is well easy to spot these people now:

Please People remember to not let your emotions cloud your minds:

This is how the elite physhos work;they come on here and profile.

they have had thousands of years of experience.

BTW your name rhymes with Basque;)

ITS THE ELITE PSYCHOS WHO ARE THE TERRORISTS/REMEMBER 911:

YOU CAN FOOL THE PEOPLE SOMETIMES BUT YOU CANT FOOL THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME

Adbasque = Agent double Basque lol :D just kidding of course
Sometimes as you said they copy pictures and huge texts they don't even bother to read them, themselves sometimes they don't even know what's in those articles, who wrote them, why etc..

And the other thing is the constant repitition of the same articles and if you read the forum's guidelines it's considered as a spam.
Yes you can spot them miles away, the propagandists are very active in most forums.

I totally agree with you, we should debate topics and issues to shed some lights of things that are already obscured by the PTB, we don't need emotional reactions, the BBC, ITV, C4 etc.. do that quite successfully already, here we need to be rational not emotional.

To be honest with you, there are some individuals here, I really wonder what they are doing on this forum.
I guess we ought to be a little bit more selective it's the best way.
otherwise we will end up in a huge chaos and good posts and threads will go unoticed.
or buried under tons of propaganda pictures and crap articles, ready made by some agents on other websites.

Ian2day

02-08-2009, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ian2day http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1160676#post1160676)
Carried out by the same people that took down the Air France plane from Brazil. Who also shot the pizza delivery guy in NI. Carried out the 7/7 attacks of London. Attacked the Romany people in NI. Killed MJ. Ponzi schemes. Diamond heists. Organs for sale. Trafficking and a whole host of other goings on.

Oh yeah and stole my dog last summer for satanic purposes

They also carried out 9/11, murder of Di, Mumbai bombing, sinking of a ship being towed for scrap off of the South African coastline, MP's expense scandal, arrested Luke from WeAreChange, Queens day attack in Belgium. Loads of other shit too!

Maybe you should get a Cat to replace the Dog or how about a Horse.

adbasque

02-08-2009, 05:32 AM

Good points,
But above all, they show hatred.

Yes they sometimes react "emotionally" show hatred for one purpose to create diversion and division.
When they see a good thread they try and put people off, make them run away and the thread will die away.

I have seen several threads gone quiet because of the behaviour of some.

erdo

02-08-2009, 06:53 AM

Yes they sometimes react "emotionally" show hatred for one purpose to create diversion and division.
When they see a good thread they try and put people off, make them run away and the thread will die away.

I have seen several threads gone quite because of the behaviour of some.

But you cannot form an army of only 100% truth seekers.
Knowledge leads to power, and power can be use to do good but also to do evil. I think that true knowledge not always leads people to do good, that is the reason i think David Icke talks about infinite love instead of infinite knowledge.

adbasque

02-08-2009, 07:44 AM

But you cannot form an army of only 100% truth seekers.
Knowledge leads to power, and power can be use to do good but also to do evil. I think that true knowledge not always leads people to do good, that is the reason i think David Icke talks about infinite love instead of infinite knowledge.

You're right, knowledge without wisdom is usually used for the wrong reasons
Anyone can acquire knowledge but not everyone can acquire wisdom.

I do realise that wisdom is under rated, but wisdom is what keeps the balance between evil and good.

Without wisdom any person is susceptible to lose their empathy, and their good human qualities.

Evil will always exist, but there's a difference between evil exists and evil taking over, we can never eradicate it once and for all, it's only an illusion, but we can suppress it from rising to the top and become powerful.

danny fremen

02-08-2009, 09:29 AM

adbasque

02-08-2009, 09:39 AM

king Juan Carlos had a lot to say :-

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/Rey/Hay/darles/cabeza/acabar/elpepunac/20090802elpepinac_3/Tes

"Hay que darles en la cabeza y acabar con ellos"

(We have to strike them on the head and finish them off)

Great opportunity for him to denounce evil terrorists and portray himself as the good guy, and further brainwash (with dirty water) the Spanish and Basque populations into not seeking Basque independence. He's the main man who doesn't want the Basques to have their independence. But they never make a serious attempt to try and kill him. Ironic.

These acts of terrorism only serve to equate the achievement of Basque independence with "giving in to terrorists", so cui bono? Certainly not any Basque organisation that wishes independence from Spain. The only beneficiary is he who does not want el Pais Basque to split off, other than coffin makers and funeral directors.

The deceived Basques who wish to be part of Spain could actually go and live in Spain instead if they like it so much, rather than help to sell their nation out.

I don't believe in democracy, I believe in what's right. Because the majority are very often wrong here in this lunatic asylum called Earth.

That a small group of people decide they want to live their lives how they wish, with no interference from their bigger neighbours with an oversized central government hundreds of miles away, is always a good thing. It's called self-determination. If there were more of it in this world, the world would be a better place.

Notice how the UK's and the USA's controllers murder hundreds of thousands of people, in countries thousands of miles away, but not so many in their own country? Was it 3,000 on 911? And 56 on 7/7? Kinda hard for a leader to order the murder of so many people if they live right next door to him, yanno?

ETA is a mafia? Maybe there are some thugs who go around stealing "taxes" calling themselves "ETA". But what is the Spanish State and Juan Carlos then? A super-mafia?

Cui bono, cui bono...

Juan Carlos and Franco were both known dictators, Spain doesn't want to give up the Basques country, not only Spain, France on the other side too.

It's very similar to NI same tactic used, that's why some members of the IRA and ETA trained together and shared intelligence for decades.

If the NI wanted to be part of Britain why not come and live in Britain, why force others to give up their country to the British Empire?
But the Irish government like any other government on this planet is corrupt to the core.
They serve their masters and not their people.

Breaking all sovereinties starting with small countries with the help of some traitors.
The few patriots are viewed as terrorists and monsters.
Most attacks in British cities were carried out by the British and Irish secret services to frame the IRA

Now they are doing the same thing to frame the Muslims, they frame and use whom ever suits their current agenda.
If people still can't see the same pattern than they'll never see it.

astrochicken

02-08-2009, 06:20 PM

I used to live in the Basque country between France and the Spanish borders, in a place called Dinnar, Saint Jean de Luz.
I know a little bit about their culture and their struggle.

I did too.. a wee place called bergua in the basque pyrenees.
Lovely people.

lightgiver

02-08-2009, 10:39 PM

Adbasque = Agent double Basque lol :D just kidding of course
Sometimes as you said they copy pictures and huge texts they don't even bother to read them, themselves sometimes they don't even know what's in those articles, who wrote them, why etc..

And the other thing is the constant repitition of the same articles and if you read the forum's guidelines it's considered as a spam.
Yes you can spot them miles away, the propagandists are very active in most forums.

I totally agree with you, we should debate topics and issues to shed some lights of things that are already obscured by the PTB, we don't need emotional reactions, the BBC, ITV, C4 etc.. do that quite successfully already, here we need to be rational not emotional.

To be honest with you, there are some individuals here, I really wonder what they are doing on this forum.
I guess we ought to be a little bit more selective it's the best way.
otherwise we will end up in a huge chaos and good posts and threads will go unoticed.
or buried under tons of propaganda pictures and crap articles, ready made by some agents on other websites.

I concur ;)

brainfreeze

02-08-2009, 10:45 PM

But you cannot form an army of only 100% truth seekers.
Knowledge leads to power, and power can be use to do good but also to do evil. I think that true knowledge not always leads people to do good, that is the reason i think David Icke talks about infinite love instead of infinite knowledge.

See how David imparts his info to us who don't know? How he doesn't shove it in our face or call us shills and sheeple when at first we battle to get it, which makes you want to listen and learn more.

Some of the Experts on here would do themselves and those here to learn a favour by learning how to do that.

But unfortunately, passing on info on this forum is too often either done respectfully from one "guru to the other" or with a sneer by those who know more than the minions who dare to question their view. And who wants to learn from someone like that?

Well, that's been my experience on here.

erdo

03-08-2009, 02:44 AM

See how David imparts his info to us who don't know? How he doesn't shove it in our face or call us shills and sheeple when at first we battle to get it, which makes you want to listen and learn more.

Some of the Experts on here would do themselves and those here to learn a favour by learning how to do that.

But unfortunately, passing on info on this forum is too often either done respectfully from one "guru to the other" or with a sneer by those who know more than the minions who dare to question their view. And who wants to learn from someone like that?

Well, that's been my experience on here.

Exactly.that is the point.
There is nothing to learn different to defeat from someone who defends tactics used by an organisation which is near the extinction and will be wiped out soon. A 90 years old grandparent will last longer:D
My uncle has been 40 years studying Mayan codex, that is an expert, much different from an hysterical and rabid forumer

adbasque

03-08-2009, 03:34 AM

I did too.. a wee place called bergua in the basque pyrenees.
Lovely people.

All the time I have lived there, I have never had a problem with anyone, lovely, warm people, truly genuine people.

I totally agree

peterklutz

04-08-2009, 01:59 PM

No, it's ETA.
Who gives money to the band?
I tell you. ETA works as the mafia. They threaten businessmen. They have the called "revolutionary tax". They send letters to companys, firms, saying that if they don't pay, they will kidnap or killed someone from the family. You need to pay or die.
This is ETA, a mafia that makes impossible to life in peace in the Basque Country and in the rest of Spain.

..and what is the difference between this MO and the way the Spanish (or any other government) operate? Pay up the money we say you owe us or see you and your family suffer the consequences. Whether the retribution is handed out by offcial looking figures wearing some sort of uniform or a revolutionary army is a moot point.

If what you are writing is true, this is simply the way "governments" have always worked .

elisa

08-08-2009, 03:13 PM

king Juan Carlos had a lot to say :-

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/Rey/Hay/darles/cabeza/acabar/elpepunac/20090802elpepinac_3/Tes

"Hay que darles en la cabeza y acabar con ellos"

(We have to strike them on the head and finish them off)

Great opportunity for him to denounce evil terrorists and portray himself as the good guy, and further brainwash (with dirty water) the Spanish and Basque populations into not seeking Basque independence. He's the main man who doesn't want the Basques to have their independence. But they never make a serious attempt to try and kill him. Ironic.

These acts of terrorism only serve to equate the achievement of Basque independence with "giving in to terrorists", so cui bono? Certainly not any Basque organisation that wishes independence from Spain. The only beneficiary is he who does not want el Pais Basque to split off, other than coffin makers and funeral directors.

The deceived Basques who wish to be part of Spain could actually go and live in Spain instead if they like it so much, rather than help to sell their nation out.

I don't believe in democracy, I believe in what's right. Because the majority are very often wrong here in this lunatic asylum called Earth.

That a small group of people decide they want to live their lives how they wish, with no interference from their bigger neighbours with an oversized central government hundreds of miles away, is always a good thing. It's called self-determination. If there were more of it in this world, the world would be a better place.

Notice how the UK's and the USA's controllers murder hundreds of thousands of people, in countries thousands of miles away, but not so many in their own country? Was it 3,000 on 911? And 56 on 7/7? Kinda hard for a leader to order the murder of so many people if they live right next door to him, yanno?

ETA is a mafia? Maybe there are some thugs who go around stealing "taxes" calling themselves "ETA". But what is the Spanish State and Juan Carlos then? A super-mafia?

Cui bono, cui bono...

Hi guys!

I've only been around for a little while, then I decided to join the forums because I find very interesting some of the things you guys talk about.

But this whole post is... really, I don't even know where to start, nor if it's worth to say anything, seeing what your totally uninformed opinions are.

If you don't live in Spain, danny, I just will tell you that you have NO idea whatsoever of what's going on.

If you do live in Spain, then I understand why we are still suffering the ETA desease.

Unbelievable.

Hugs everyone. :)

texdallas

08-08-2009, 04:10 PM

trained by mi6 ira gangsters

lol!

marpat

08-08-2009, 05:53 PM

thewayitis......you sound overly convinced you know what your talking about....im sure you must....but there's no terrorist group that does'nt take orders from the masons running the globe...

Fucking hell, this place is so predictable.

cpfc12

08-08-2009, 07:59 PM

Fucking hell, this place is so predictable.

hahaha, i am now going to accuse you as being a shill or masonic troll, because you disagree:D

elisa

09-08-2009, 07:45 PM

Ok, I reread the post, and now that I have nothing better to do, I do like to give a better answer to your post:

The deceived Basques who wish to be part of Spain could actually go and live in Spain instead if they like it so much, rather than help to sell their nation out.

Sell their nation out, you say. What nation? El País Vasco, Basque Country, is not and has never been a nation. It's always been a spanish province, like the rest of them. Look it up, history books are everywhere. Even the ones written there.

And The deceived Basques, as you called them, are, actually, pretty much the majority of the basque people, which know that ETA is not them, nor representates their wishes or expectations. Basque people is fed up with the terror. They want to live in peace. They want to go out to buy groceries without wondering whether they'll get back home or not, whether they are going to be blackmailed or threatened. Because, yes, ETA kills basque people too. Their own. They don't really care that much about ideals anymore, and that's why they've lost so many followers. Even among their so called friends.

I don't believe in democracy, I believe in what's right.

I'm glad to hear you believe in what's right. Because then you'll never find excuses for someone shooting parents in front of their children, or maiming innocent 13 year old girls who just happened to be in one place and not other, or kidnapping a man and killing him after three days of torture.

Life is right. Life is beautiful. And there's absolutely NO excuse for us taking it. Especially not from innocent people who have NOTHING to do with whatever issues they might have with the state.

Imagine you're with your friends/parents/family in a shopping centre. You're planning christmas, what you're going to do, what tree you'll be taking home, which horrible present you'll get from you're horrible uncle Phil. And then you and your family are no more because you've been severed into peaces by a bomb that some people you don't even know, or worst, you understood and even were pals with, put there today.

Or let's try this. You're a well-known doctor in another province who has nothing to do with Basque Country. One of your patients comes in, you smile while telling him to sit down, please, so you aren't expecting his producing a gun out of nowhere and shooting you in the head.

That is ETA. Not the bunch of oppressed poor people pursuing their freedom you somehow got to picture.

That a small group of people decide they want to live their lives how they wish, with no interference from their bigger neighbours with an oversized central government hundreds of miles away, is always a good thing. It's called self-determination. If there were more of it in this world, the world would be a better place.

Again, I refer you to history books, since I'm no expert or anything. Spain, as you surely know, is organised in Autonomies. That meaning many of the most important issues are not run by the central government in any shape or form.

And danny, Spain is the biggest neighbour of PORTUGAL, not País Vasco. It is not a country, it's an autonomy that has been Spain since Spain is Spain. It was there since the unification. ETA was merely born in the seventies (or rather as far back as the late 50s).

And yes, self-determination is fantastic. I entirely agree that the world would be a better place if self-determination started within ourselves, in the first place.

A pity what ETA seeks is not really self-determination.

I mean, I'm sure you're a normal person, danny, with people who love you and people you love.

Would you go as far as calling your parents out for having kidnapped you and severed your freedom, and then, among other nonsense, threaten them to kill them along with all your sisters and brothers and other family members, even neighbours or total strangers, if they don't give you their house, plus a luxury flat in some posh street, and of course paying for anything and everything you demand?

One thing is to have theories and all. But this is... I mean, the fact that those bastards might be considered innocent and repressed people fighting for their freedom, is terribly worrying.

Oh, and this is fantastic. Any ETA assasin, in prison, lives like 9847843576 times better than I do in my house, without having commited crime of any sort. Just for the record.

Hugs,

Elisa ~

PS: On a totally unrelated subject, ERDO, I just saw your avatar and got the chills. Cebri is truly missed :(

lightgiver

11-08-2009, 12:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byfhU58NQkE

FREEDOM FOR THE BASQUE COUNTRY

elisa

11-08-2009, 01:46 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byfhU58NQkE

FREEDOM FOR THE BASQUE COUNTRY

Hi Lightgiver,

Well, you're right. It's easier to find something on Youtube, and spread it, when you're not involved. Or so I hope.

If only the video were true.

I could tell you where are the images from and who those people are, but what's the point. I mean, what you found here it's the equivalent of a bunch of satanists making a video about the advantages and wonders of sacrificing little kids; with inspiring music and a little editing here and there, it might look even appealing.

This is Pro-ETA video made by people with those views. You didn't happen to find the 567645 videos of thousands of basques collapsing streets all around the Basque Country with banners and signs begging ETA to leave them alone, telling them to stop altogether, did you? Year after year, killing after killing? They're not so hidden, you know. You surely must have seen them too.

Funny thing is that I see the word TRUTH around the forums constantly, yet I find people who don't even live here talking about this and thinking that ETA and the PEACEFUL nationalist movement is the same. The latter is right, the former is just against every law of nature, love and logic.

From the words of some people on this thread, I have assumed that at least some of you aren't spanish or even live in Spain (except for one, I think, I gathered it from the avatar). If I happen to be wrong and ALL of you guys are over here and therefore living the nightmare and knowing what's all about, then I don't have anything else to say, for people who find excuses for ETA's killings aren't even 'people' to me in the first place.

The killing of innocent lives, Lightgiver, is as furthest from Light as one can get.

I hope none of you ever need to bury any loved one in these circumstances. Of course, perhaps you'll be ok. It was pursuing poor people freedom after all, so perhaps you'll be better at having the pieces of your son, or your father, or your best friend, being collected all over the street before you can bury them than I will ever be.

Disgusting. And so very very sad.

PS: Your signature quotes are amazing (honest, no double entendre). But I cannot reconcile them with your position on this matter, which makes me think that you're speaking from afar, not from anywhere near the nightmare. The other option I pray to god it's not the true one.

For their fruits, the blood of innocents, they are simply soulless monsters.

A statement that regardless any youtube videos, totally agrees with my own reason and my own common sense.

astrochicken

11-08-2009, 10:40 AM

Elisa,

Do tell, what is your opinion on the terror and forced evictions inflicted on the basque people by Mr. Franco for decades?
(not mentioned at all in *official* spanish history courtesy of the madrid publishing houses).

We are talking about the suppression and intended removal of an entire people and their culture here,
not just some line drawn on a map depicting the concept of an supposedly "autonomous" region.

Have YOU ever spent much time in the basque country?

I think not, because your arguments are straight out of the official wikipedia page on spain.

Look at the empty villages, talk to the locals... they paint a very different picture of recent spanish history.

Gora Euskadi, Viva Catalunya und Viva Galicia.

adbasque

11-08-2009, 01:03 PM

Elisa,

Do tell, what is your opinion on the terror and forced evictions inflicted on the basque people by Mr. Franco for decades?
(not mentioned at all in *official* spanish history courtesy of the madrid publishing houses).

We are talking about the suppression and intended removal of an entire people and their culture here,
not just some line drawn on a map depicting the concept of an supposedly "autonomous" region.

Have YOU ever spent much time in the basque country?

I think not, because your arguments are straight out of the official wikipedia page on spain.

Look at the empty villages, talk to the locals... they paint a very different picture of recent spanish history.

Gora Euskadi, Viva Catalunya und Viva Galicia.

Totally agree with you, for generations they have been squeezed between France and Spain, they basically wanted to wipe them out and their culture.

I know a lot of my friends who are Basques, and they all wanted their independance, they want to be recognised as a free country, and I know you lived there, am I right?
You know how warm they are.

Franco was a f*** vermin and Juan Carlos too both were real f** dictators

elisa

11-08-2009, 02:38 PM

Elisa,

Do tell, what is your opinion on the terror and forced evictions inflicted on the basque people by Mr. Franco for decades?
(not mentioned at all in *official* spanish history courtesy of the madrid publishing houses).

Hi astrochicken,

Franco, another soulless monster, inflicted pain and terror for decades to ALL who dared to disagree with his nonsensical mind and dictatorship, not only the basques. Especially, but not exclusively. Roads and highways across all spanish territory are still serving as tombs for unknown souls who had to suffer that madman rage just because they didn't want to lose their rightful freedom .

I hope I made myself clear on this respect.

Also, I'd like to point out that you're talking about a different era, a different time. Things are different now. Comparisons between how we lived then and how we live now are totally out of any logic. Fortunately, that changed, although we're trying hard to heal our civil war scars even as we speak.

Have YOU ever spent much time in the basque country?

I think not, because your arguments are straight out of the official wikipedia page on spain.

Sure of ourselves, are we?;) My my, how can you state you know where I am or where I come from or what did I read?

Sorry to disappoint, but I didn't really had to look something on any Wiki. That's for those who don't live the reality at hands, and therefore speak by ear, not by experience.

I live here, dear. I live here. Which is why this topic got to me so much. Because I can't believe that people totally unrelated to this can find any excuses for what we're going through. It's like if I started talking with authority about, I don't know, the comings and goings of 11-S, or the Sierra Leona wars, or North-South Corea issues. I mean. Seriously.

Were do YOU live, astrochiken? I don't know, you sound pretty sure about things. Are we neighbours?

We are sick of ETA. Sick to the bone. They're doing nothing but making Basque goals look bad, look the same as theirs, and therefore making people think "oh, they're all the same bunch". Nothing further from the truth. Basques are peaceful, and warm, and love life, and condemn death and terror. Ironically enough, ETA has ended being no better than Franco was.

And funnily enough, the Basque country wouldn't even survive in the independency terms ETA claims to seek.

So yes, GORA Euskadi, but ETA KANPORA

Hugs everyone.

astrochicken

11-08-2009, 04:21 PM

Basques are peaceful, and warm, and love life, and condemn death and terror..

My sentiments exactly. Some of the loveliest people i have EVER met. Consistently.

The resurrection of ETA is all to convenient for those wishing to distract from what is really going on.

Let's see if the RAF resurface in Germany and the IRA in London.

It's all bullshit.

I got involved in this thread as THE basques were being tarred with the same brush by those without the slightest knowledge or personal experience of the people, the land or the culture.

Killing people is never an option but we are still being fed shite and drinking forced-fluoridated water day in and day out by kings,queens and elected puppets.

Is there a difference?

elisa

11-08-2009, 08:05 PM

The resurrection of ETA is all to convenient for those wishing to distract from what is really going on.

Maybe, except that ETA has never been eradicated, not really. So it's not entirely a resurrection, more like some herpes, oscillating from bad to worse back and forth, but never gone.

Let's see if the RAF resurface in Germany and the IRA in London.

Let's do some global finger-crossing or something for that never coming to happen.

I got involved in this thread as THE basques were being tarred with the same brush by those without the slightest knowledge or personal experience of the people, the land or the culture.

Which honours you, because you'll be surprised at how much ETA is affecting basques' reputation. For the worst, as you can imagine.

But reading that ETA might be laureated and seen as poor basque people pursuing their freedom is simply outrageous for the rest of the basques who don't believe in terror and death as currency. They aren't. They totally aren't. Basques don't deserve to be put in the same plate with them even for a moment.

I mean, what kind of independent country would this kind of people instaurate? People who blackmail and threaten and kill innocents at the drop of a hat if they don't do as they say, just as our last dictator did? I'd rather never live to see the answer, to be honest.

Killing people is never an option but we are still being fed shite and drinking forced-fluoridated water day in and day out by kings,queens and elected puppets.

Is there a difference?

I'd like to think that there is, astro, but that's the optimist in me. Precisely because of what you say: because killing people should never be an option. Killing your own people...I don't even know how to call that.

I don't know much about this theory of water I've seen in passing around the forums, so I'm going on the basics here. But if you are correct and that theory is correct, at least the killing is not made by your own, by your neighbours, by the people you supposedly share views and life and culture with.

Some days I really wonder how the Earth hasn't already exploded what with all this bad karma around...

Hugs. :)

lightgiver

11-08-2009, 08:46 PM

Hi Lightgiver,

Well, you're right. It's easier to find something on Youtube, and spread it, when you're not involved. Or so I hope.

If only the video were true.

I could tell you where are the images from and who those people are, but what's the point. I mean, what you found here it's the equivalent of a bunch of satanists making a video about the advantages and wonders of sacrificing little kids; with inspiring music and a little editing here and there, it might look even appealing.

This is Pro-ETA video made by people with those views. You didn't happen to find the 567645 videos of thousands of basques collapsing streets all around the Basque Country with banners and signs begging ETA to leave them alone, telling them to stop altogether, did you? Year after year, killing after killing? They're not so hidden, you know. You surely must have seen them too.

Funny thing is that I see the word TRUTH around the forums constantly, yet I find people who don't even live here talking about this and thinking that ETA and the PEACEFUL nationalist movement is the same. The latter is right, the former is just against every law of nature, love and logic.

From the words of some people on this thread, I have assumed that at least some of you aren't spanish or even live in Spain (except for one, I think, I gathered it from the avatar). If I happen to be wrong and ALL of you guys are over here and therefore living the nightmare and knowing what's all about, then I don't have anything else to say, for people who find excuses for ETA's killings aren't even 'people' to me in the first place.

The killing of innocent lives, Lightgiver, is as furthest from Light as one can get.

I hope none of you ever need to bury any loved one in these circumstances. Of course, perhaps you'll be ok. It was pursuing poor people freedom after all, so perhaps you'll be better at having the pieces of your son, or your father, or your best friend, being collected all over the street before you can bury them than I will ever be.

Disgusting. And so very very sad.

PS: Your signature quotes are amazing (honest, no double entendre). But I cannot reconcile them with your position on this matter, which makes me think that you're speaking from afar, not from anywhere near the nightmare. The other option I pray to god it's not the true one.

For their fruits, the blood of innocents, they are simply soulless monsters.

A statement that regardless any youtube videos, totally agrees with my own reason and my own common sense.

How do you know me??:confused:

All our governments are the biggest terrorists who have murdered and plundered for centuries take ya blinkers off.

all them people must be wrong then who are demonstrating,ever heard of False flags.

You can write as much as you like, I know what I know.What is so wrong with an independent Basque region,why are the Spanish dictator government so bothered.:confused:

I will tell you power and control.

Cheers.

Lessons from the North of Ireland?

Does the Spanish Government really want to repeat the old mistakes of the British Government in the North of Ireland or rather learn from the Irish conflict resolution process? One of the lessons is, that a political conflict can only be resolved by negotiations of all parties involved. Oppression, exclusion and criminalization prolong the conflict. The aggressive violation of human and civil rights by the state strengthen solidarity and resistance of the people.

http://www.info-nordirland.de/euskalherria/comment_gestoras_e.htm

The Basque Ball opens on general release this month in Britain, following the political earthquake in Spain that led to the downfall of the PP government. The right-wing administration that had expected to be re-elected in parliamentary elections, paid a heavy price for attempting to FALSELY blame ETA for the 11 March Madrid bombings that killed 192 people and which were subsequently claimed by a political Islamic group.

http://socialistworld.net/eng/2004/06/01review.html

Oh BTW you do not have to tell moi about Light:who has said the killing of innocents is right;not me mate:you need to be telling the ones dropping bombs on babies children and women its like the blind leading the blind;with some people on here:rolleyes:

flyermay

11-08-2009, 09:37 PM

You didn't happen to find the 567645 videos of thousands of basques collapsing streets all around the Basque Country with banners and signs begging ETA to leave them alone, telling them to stop altogether, did you? Year after year, killing after killing? They're not so hidden, you know. You surely must have seen them too.

Hi Elisa,

I did saw those videos (actually they are aired on the Spanish TV all day long). But very few of those protesting and waving banners are really Basques; they are the Spanish descendants of the fascist colonists that took over the Basque country since Franco's times.

What those videos don't show are the Basques (the real ones) being murdered, tortured, imprisoned, beaten, threatened and silenced (including the families and friends of any suspects), simply for saying what they think.

People don’t realise that in the Basque country newspapers are close and their workers imprisoned; Basque political parties (the real ones) illegalised and their member imprisoned; protesters beaten, tortured and imprisoned; and almost anyone in Spain that does not condemn Basque activism is liable to torture and imprisonment.

Funny thing is that I see the word TRUTH around the forums constantly, yet I find people who don't even live here talking about this and thinking that ETA and the PEACEFUL nationalist movement is the same. The latter is right, the former is just against every law of nature, love and logic.

What makes you think that every single person that wants freedom for Euskadi is a terrorist (apart from the propaganda against them?.. but you might like to know that there are (were) many political parties and movements that rejected ETA's violence, and they are still shut up, illegalised, imprisoned and tortured.

I hope none of you ever need to bury any loved one in these circumstances. Of course, perhaps you'll be ok. It was pursuing poor people freedom after all, so perhaps you'll be better at having the pieces of your son, or your father, or your best friend, being collected all over the street before you can bury them than I will ever be.

So... why can't you also empathise with all the victims that died due to the Spanish colonisation of the Basque country until today? Rather than turning against those that are simply defending their culture, language and land; all taken away by brute force.

lightgiver

11-08-2009, 11:05 PM

Q. Are the Basques genetically different from other Europeans?

A. Apparently, yes. It has long been known that the Basques have the highest proportion of rhesus-negative blood in Europe , and one of the highest percentages of type-O blood (55%). Recently, however, the geneticist Luiga Luca Cavalli-Sforza has completed a gene map of the peoples of Europe, and he finds the Basques to be strikingly different from their neighbours. The genetic boundary between Basques and non-Basques is very sharp on the Spanish side. On the French side, the boundary is more diffuse: it shades off gradually toward the Garonne in the north. These findings are entirely in agreement with what we know of the history of the language.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7002/spain.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/spain.jpg/)

Now why would the Spanish Dictators be so reluctant to give up such a tiny portion of their country.

Could this be the REAL reason,I wonder,

EUROPE'S MYSTERY PEOPLE :

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf085/sf085a02.htm
The researches of R. Frank, a scholar at the University of Iowa, suggest that the Basques were far-advanced in navigational skills and other aspects of technology long before the rise of the Roman Empire. The Basques, she believes, are the last remnants of the megalith builders, who left behind dolmens, standing stones, and other rock structures all across Europe and perhaps even in eastern North America.

Two facts set the Basque peoples apart from the other Europeans who have dominated the continent the past 3,000 years: (1) The Basque language is distinctly different; and (2) The Basques have the highest recorded level of Rh-negative blood (roughly twice that of most Europeans), as well as substantially lower levels of Type B blood and a higher incidence of Type O blood.

Some probable technological feats of the Basques or their ancestors are:

Stonehenge and similar megalithic structures....A unique system of measurement based on the number 7, instead of 10, 12, or 60 Regular visits to North America long before Columbus to fish and to trade for beaver skins. Recently unearthed British customs records show large Basque imports of beaver pelts from 1380-1433. The invention of a sophisticated navigational device called an "abacus." (No relation to the common abacus.)

(Haddingham, Evan; "Europe's Mystery People," World Monitor, p. 34, September 1992. Cr. A. Rothovius.)
From Science Frontiers #85, JAN-FEB 1993. A9 1997 William R. Corliss

The Reptilians are tracking those with Rh-Negative Factor Blood. Going back into time....the Rh-Neg Hybrids came from the DRACO Caverns in the Carpathian Mountains. They were mostly RED Haired, with Green Eyes and Black haired, with Brown Eyes. They tried to infiltrate themselves into the Blond/Brown Haired, with Blue Eyes, Civilization. They wanted to Mate with those who were not Rh-Negatives. Most Rh-Negs have a Lower Body temperature and Blood pressure than Rh-Positives. Many Rh-Negs are born with a CAUDA(tail) or an Extra Vertebra (Tail Bone). Rh-Negs are Hybrids. They are Part Reptilian/part human. If two Rh-Negs try to have a baby it will usually die or be born a "BLUE Baby", because it is Not processing oxygen properly. Thus "Blue-Bloods", if they survive. 5% of the Earth's population are currently Rh-Negatives. But, they are 15% of the population of the England and the USA.

Dr. Luigi Cavalli-Sforza from Stanford University wrote an article entitled "Genes, Peoples and Languages" (Scientific American, Nov.'91). He pointed out the high Rh-negative concentrations among the people of Morocco, the Basque country of Euskadi, Ireland, Scotland and the Norwegian islands.

The only people among these still to speak their original neolithic language were the Basques...
From http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/intro.shtml

Also on the Rh-factor map, you will notice that the Icelandic=20 population has a very low incidence of Rh-negative individuals, unlike the rest of Scandinavia.
From http://www.sfs.nphil.uni-tuebingen.de/linguist/issues/3/3-87.shtml

The most distinctive members of the European branch of the human tree are the Basques of France and Spain. They show unusual patterns for several genes, including the highest rate of the Rh-negative blood type. Their language is of unknown origin and cannot be placed within any standard classification.

This is the reason why.

Another thing remember the forum you are on.

The Babylonian Brotherhood
As the flood waters receded after the Venus cataclysm, the survivors came down from the mountains and up from within the Earth. They settled on the lowlands and plains and began to rebuild. This was when Sumer, Egypt and the civilization in the Indus Valley suddenly appeared at a very high level of technological advancement, although they had existed before and were now restored after the upheavals. The Sumerian society began at the peak of its development because of this sudden infusion of knowledge and the white Aryan race, originally from Mars, expanded out from the Caucasus Mountains and the Near East down into Sumer, Egypt and the Indus Valley where, as even conventional history agrees, highly advanced societies spontaneously emerged.

However, within this white race, and others also, was a genetic stream I will call reptile-Aryan or reptile-human, Whenever I use the term Aryan I am referring to the white race. These were the crossbreed bloodlines created from the genetic manipulation of the Anunnaki. The major center for the reptile-Aryan bloodlines, in the ancient world after the flood waters receded, was Babylon in the south of the Sumer region alongside the River Euphrates. A closer look at the evidence appears to date the foundation of Babylon far earlier than previously believed and it was one of the first cities of the post-flood era. It was here that the mystery schools and secret societies were formed which were to span the globe in the thousands of years that followed.

The Brotherhood which controls the world today is the modern expression of the Babylonian Brotherhood of reptile-Aryan priests and ‘royalty' which came together there after the flood. It was in Babylon in this post flood period from around 6,000 years ago that the foundation beliefs - manipulated beliefs - of today's world religions were established to control and rule the people.

The people of the Basque region have a greater than 50 percent concentration of the RH negative gene,. The frequency decreases in relation to the distance from the Basque region into the rest of the world until there is very little evidence of this gene. This genetic mapping helps to show that a mutation from RH positive to RH negative occurred somewhere in the Basque area of Europe maybe as much as 40,000 years ago, as he discussed later. Basques are not regional inhabitants of an area, as some believe - they are a completely separate and distinct race whose origins are shrouded in mystery.

Although to all outward appearances they seem to be part of the so called "white" or "Caucasian" race group, they have distinct genetic differences which does not allow their being classified as part of that "white" race. For example : Basques are believed to have been the originators of the RH negative blood factor - the original genetic pool from which this factor came. While RH negatives are a small minority in the "white" and other races, and practically non-existent in "orientals", the current Basques still are over 33 % RH negative. Another salient genetic feature is the the shape and sutures (bone joints) of cranial bones of Basques[The Reptilian skull ridge]. A third skeletal difference is the tendency to having a thicker breast bone.

According to Alex Collier... The Alpha Draconians, a reptilian race composed of master geneticists, tinker with life - which from their perspective exists as a natural resource. The Draconians look at lifeforms which= they have created or altered as a natural resource. Apparently, the Alpha Draconians created the primate race, which was first brought to Mars and then to Earth. The primate race was then tinkered with....

flyermay

12-08-2009, 12:12 AM

elisa

12-08-2009, 01:33 AM

Hi Flyermay,

Beautiful post (The Guernica one, I mean. I just realised you wrote another one before that one...I have this horrible habit of reading posts backwards :rolleyes:)

During the dictatorship pretty much everything was banned, but again, not only in Basque Country, but everywhere. It was worse though because of a series of factors, historical, cultural and political and all you can imagine.

Ok, now I'm reading the first one you posted :)

Hi Elisa,

I did saw those videos (actually they are aired on the Spanish TV all day long). But very few of those protesting and waving banners are really Basques; they are the Spanish descendants of the fascist colonists that took over the Basque country since Franco's times.

Flyermay, everytime you see a protesting in Madrid, there's a mirror one in at least the three capitals of the three basque provinces. I can tell you that for very very sure. And all day long? No, they are aired when they happen, not all day long. Not sure why you say this.

I'm confused with the second part, not sure if I got what you were actually trying to say.

What I understand is that you are picturing the Basque Country as a place colonised by Franco?:confused: If so, I don't know where that's stated as a fact (outside extremist propaganda, of course). Spain has been Spain for centuries, basque country included. In that sense, then Franco colonised ALL of Spain, since he started in Africa and went up up up up... until he got to Euskadi. A matter of strategy. But Euskadi was Spain.

And really, you call people who has nothing to do with those fascists or support their ideals, 'descendants of....'? What you see there is just normal people conmiserating the horror we're suffering. And believe me, it's highly appreciated.

What makes me wonder: are we truly accountable for our parents' mistakes? For our grandparents'? Should the native american community of the USA start killing the descendants of those british imperialists that conquered them, this is, pretty much every american out there? They are descendants of those colonialists, you know.

A matter of viewpoint, I suppose. I only know that I'm in no way responsible for my ancestors actions, nor my children should have to bear the burden of mines. How can a 12 year old girl deserve to be maimed? How basque men and women who work for the land they love deserve to be killed when they choose FREEDOM and fight against the terror?

What those videos don't show are the Basques (the real ones) being murdered, tortured, imprisoned, beaten, threatened and silenced (including the families and friends of any suspects), simply for saying what they think.

The real ones. I'd really like to know what you mean with 'The Real Ones'. What makes a basque real according to you? Their wanting or not wanting to kill people in the name of their alleged ideals? If there's a bunch out there undeserving of the pride of being called basque is ETA.

This is all a matter of who tells the tale, so I'm not even going to try. Of course that Pro-ETA people is going to sing their praises and tell all kinds of stories to distort the only real truth: that they are just a bunch of bastards slowing whatever progress towards independence there might be.

Those tortures were bad, but in the past, and not out of nowhere, but after doing atrocities. Nowadays, go and visit any ETA prisoner. They are treated like royalty. Having killed and tortured and... well, that doesn't matter. They have everything they want, whereas the victims have to sit and miss their lost ones.

This alone attemps against all laws of nature and love.

People don’t realise that in the Basque country newspapers are close and their workers imprisoned; Basque political parties (the real ones) illegalised and their member imprisoned; protesters beaten, tortured and imprisoned;

People don't realise what? Oh my, your sources might be just terrific...

Goodness... Really, it's all the opposite! It's us, normal people who don't want more death, more bombs, more terror, the ones that can't even go to a different bakery for fear of reprisals! If you say something they don't like, the next day you find your car burned to the roots, and a picture of your children coming out of school in your mailbox with a clear warning.

THAT is what they do! Is that what poor people who only fight for their freedom do? Or what terrorists and dictators do? What about my freedom?

Why do you think the protestings in Euskadi are less crowded? It's not because basques support ETA, it's because we FEAR ETA. That same people you're picturing as poor oppressed guys with newspapers closed, burn cars, houses, beat people, destroy the beautiful cities we have, and murder whoever they want, basque or not...Is that the freedom they preach?? Again, what about our freedom? Why I can't go out and protest without fearing tomorrow something terrible will happen to a loved one?

How those people can be seen as poor oppressed gudaris?

and almost anyone in Spain that does not condemn Basque activism is liable to torture and imprisonment.

This, my dear, is so surreal and untrue that I don't even know what to say. Like, I don't know, saying that Africa is the first developped continent in the world.

I don't know who told you this, or where you read it, but in a forum where the word Truth is so venerated and sought out, I can't believe things like this are spread just like that. It makes me wonder where else lies are painted like absolute truths.

What makes you think that every single person that wants freedom for Euskadi is a terrorist (apart from the propaganda against them?.. but you might like to know that there are (were) many political parties and movements that rejected ETA's violence, and they are still shut up, illegalised, imprisoned and tortured.

Now, what makes YOU think I think that, when I've already stated that I live here and therefore know that is absolutely NOT the truth? It was actually one of the points I wanted to bold in here, because you guys are confusing ETA with nationalism, peaceful nationalism. ETA is NOT wanted, nationalism IS.

True nationalist parties are not closed down. Have you heard of Aralar, for example? Only the ones with ETA associations are. Only those who don't want to give up the violence. And really, stop with the torture propaganda. That's an old ETA victimistic trick, for god's sakes. As if they don't kill for fun.

And I for one am glad of parties that don't reject ETA's violence gone. I don't want Basque Country running by assasins.

You (not only you, flyermay, just in general) really need to pay attention to those wonderful concepts you talk about in this forum, truth and love and peace. ETA and those words are water and oil.

I wonder if the speech would be the same if it were you in our place. You seek freedom, yet find excuses for a band of terrorist who do nothing but take the freedom out of basques. It's not fair.

elisa

12-08-2009, 02:47 AM

Hi Lightgiver,

How do you know me??:confused:

All our governments are the biggest terrorists who have murdered and plundered for centuries take ya blinkers off.

I happen to kind of agree, so I won't pay attention to the not-really-necessary blinker remark.

You can write as much as you like, I know what I know.

And I live where I live, therefore I experience what I know.

And don't worry, my answer won't be long. What's the point. So far you've only posted things you find elsewhere. Things like that ETA video, coming from only one side, therefore, biased.

Not everything that opposes to governments is right, especially not when killing is their way to go. Actually, it's just another kind of blinker, I guess.

What is so wrong with an independent Basque region,why are the Spanish dictator government so bothered.:confused:

You must have missed my posts (which is ok, they are long as hell). Otherwise you wouldn't be wondering what's wrong with an independent basque region, and how that is not the main problem at all.

Oh, and no, of course I don't know you, nor whatever you know. But unless you live here too, you don't know half of the half.

Another thing remember the forum you are on.

That meaning...?:confused:

I know where I am. I found it interesting overall. Do I have to agree with everything? I hope not, because then all the truth seeking, the openmindedness and the love all around would look pretty phony.

I'm here to listen and understand and then draw my own conclusions. People seem nice and logic enough for the discussion to be possible and enlightening.

Have a nice day, people.

Elisa ~

astrochicken

12-08-2009, 10:57 AM

Mods.. invent an anti-shill and anti-troll filter.

Anyways.. a pat on the back to he/she who spots the troll.

Oh.. and gora euskadi and fuck state-sponsored terrorism... arrggghhh... the bogeyman he cometh....

adbasque

12-08-2009, 11:27 AM

It's been said there will be a time, where one is trying to speak the truth it's like crossing a ring of fire.

flyermay

12-08-2009, 12:52 PM

Hi Flyermay,

Beautiful post (The Guernica one, I mean. I just realised you wrote another one before that one...I have this horrible habit of reading posts backwards :rolleyes:)

Never mind, I also read posts backwards and thanks for your comments; it was definitely nicer than the first one. :)

During the dictatorship pretty much everything was banned, but again, not only in Basque Country, but everywhere. It was worse though because of a series of factors, historical, cultural and political and all you can imagine.

The Spanish language and culture were not banned, but on the other than, the Basque were not only banned, but brutally repressed.

Flyermay, everytime you see a protesting in Madrid, there's a mirror one in at least the three capitals of the three basque provinces. I can tell you that for very very sure. And all day long? No, they are aired when they happen, not all day long. Not sure why you say this.

Yes, I’m talking about the protests in Euskadi; the ones against ETA are mainly formed by colonialists; something like the Protestants parading in Northern Ireland.

And about TV, there’s a propaganda campaign 24/7; any reason is good: a bomb, a detention, a new clue, an anniversary, and so on…

What I understand is that you are picturing the Basque Country as a place colonised by Franco?:confused: If so, I don't know where that's stated as a fact (outside extremist propaganda, of course). Spain has been Spain for centuries, basque country included. In that sense, then Franco colonised ALL of Spain, since he started in Africa and went up up up up... until he got to Euskadi. A matter of strategy. But Euskadi was Spain.

I’m referring to the one and only Spain that Franco wanted to build, which included Euskadi; how they were flooded by Spanish colonists (something like what China is doing with Tibet); and how their language and culture was replaced by the Spanish. Of course it was strategic, and even convenient to conquer Euskadi, but that doesn’t justify it.

And really, you call people who has nothing to do with those fascists or support their ideals, 'descendants of....'? What you see there is just normal people conmiserating the horror we're suffering. And believe me, it's highly appreciated.

What makes me wonder: are we truly accountable for our parents' mistakes? For our grandparents'? Should the native american community of the USA start killing the descendants of those british imperialists that conquered them, this is, pretty much every american out there? They are descendants of those colonialists, you know.

Well, I’m sorry for having putting it that way; after all, they can’t be blamed for what their ancestors did, and they are now caught in the middle of a battle (but please read further down).

The real ones. I'd really like to know what you mean with 'The Real Ones'. What makes a basque real according to you? Their wanting or not wanting to kill people in the name of their alleged ideals? If there's a bunch out there undeserving of the pride of being called basque is ETA.

By “the real ones” I’m referring to those whose ancestors are Basque, and have Basque surnames.

This is all a matter of who tells the tale, so I'm not even going to try. Of course that Pro-ETA people is going to sing their praises and tell all kinds of stories to distort the only real truth: that they are just a bunch of bastards slowing whatever progress towards independence there might be.

Exactly, but the voice of those seeking freedom and independence is never heard; just those who oppose and demonise them get to tell their story (whom by the way, own all the media and rule the governments). Did you ever heard the say: “history is written by victors”?

Those tortures were bad, but in the past, and not out of nowhere, but after doing atrocities. Nowadays, go and visit any ETA prisoner. They are treated like royalty. Having killed and tortured and... well, that doesn't matter. They have everything they want, whereas the victims have to sit and miss their lost ones.

And what happens with the many Basque victims; the families of all of those killed, tortured and imprisoned?

I remind you that Gonzalez’s “democratic” government (the same party that is today in power) paid the paramilitary group “GAL” to kill and torture suspects just a few years ago.

And suspects are still being tortured today, there no doubt that those practices went on far beyond Franco’s death. I assume you understand Spanish, so this is a small example of what can happen when a suspect is detained: they can end up in the ICU of any hospital (though that’s barely ever shown on the news, thanks to the “summary secrets”).
http://www.youtube.com/v/D5AON2AKAoA

Many people are still imprisoned today just because of what they think. There is a law in Spain called “apology of terrorism” that’s used quite often to control what it’s said. Just now Spain is trying to extradite a guy for just saying “kick the ball”!!!

Many Basque newspapers have been closed and their writers imprisoned, like the “Diario Gara”.

And any Basque parties that do not agree with Madrid’s government are illegalised, and their members often end up in jail, like: PCTV/EHAK, Batasuna, D3M, ANV, and God know how many more.

And what about those politicians taken to court and forced to leave their “democratically elected” posts just because they didn’t condemn ETA’s actions? No wonder why everyone now condemns independentists, they have no other option!!!

Now they are even detaining teenagers in the middle of the night accused of having participated (in the past) in protests.

True nationalist parties are not closed down. Have you heard of Aralar, for example? Only the ones with ETA associations are. Only those who don't want to give up the violence. And really, stop with the torture propaganda. That's an old ETA victimistic trick, for god's sakes. As if they don't kill for fun.

No, of course not; the ones that agree with Madrid and support their campaign to get rid anyone fighting for their freedom, they can stay. But all of those who want to stop Spain governing over Euskadi, those are illegal and terrorist supporters.

But what is terrorism? Is defending your land, language and culture terrorism?

And I for one am glad of parties that don't reject ETA's violence gone. I don't want Basque Country running by assasins.

Don’t the Spanish also have an army full of people willing to kill (not on ideals) but on simple orders? Didn’t the Spaniards have to kill and torture thousands of Basques to end up ruling over Euskadi?

What happens to the families of those who fought for their freedom, the families of those who died defending their culture, language and land, and the families of those tortured and still imprisoned? Do the families of the aggressors are more worthy of you empathy and compassion than the defenders?

adbasque

12-08-2009, 01:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byfhU58NQkE

FREEDOM FOR THE BASQUE COUNTRY

I concur,

Every Basque I have ever met and I have known quite a few, I still in touch with them, they all speak with the same voice, except very tiny minority of them who are corrupt. they all want their nation country to be FREE, independant from the two greedy Nations France and Spain.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a liar or misinformed. full stop

I have lived there for few years I know a lot of Basque people, wonderful people absolutely lovely human beings.

ETA, was originally genuine and then it has been infiltrated by the Elite, same as the IRA was, as a matter of fact some IRA and ETA agents were training together in the late 70s and mid 80s in Lybia, look it up.

As I said either people are completely wrong about the struggle of these people or delieberately trying to brush facts under the rug. (as usual)

The same problem with the Bretons, and the Corsicans in France, Big countries are bullies trying to swallow small countries.

The Basque people want peace indeed, but fed up of Juan Carlos.

flyermay

12-08-2009, 02:41 PM

ETA, was originally genuine and then it has been infiltrated by the Elite, same as the IRA was, as a matter of fact some IRA and ETA agents were training together in the late 70s and mid 80s in Lybia, look it up.

The case is that ETA has been used for long as an excuse to take liberties and freedoms away in Spain.

Apart from the freedom of speech, and freedom of association and political freedom, the last example includes the "pay as you go" phones. Now the accounts of all of those users that do not provide proof identity and address are going to be close down. And all because ETA supposedly used a mobile phone to report a bombing.

elisa

12-08-2009, 02:56 PM

Never mind, I also read posts backwards and thanks for your comments; it was definitely nicer than the first one. :)

Hi again, flyermay,

Nah, don't worry. We all have, with exceptions, our nicer and nastier posts. Which is ok as long as respect is somehow in the middle of it all :)

The Spanish language and culture were not banned, but on the other than, the Basque were not only banned, but brutally repressed.

That's what I meant with special factors..

And about TV, there’s a propaganda campaign 24/7; any reason is good: a bomb, a detention, a new clue, an anniversary, and so on…

Again, all this 'campaign' is about ETA, flyermay. About the people in arms, not about the nationaslism. Euskadi needs desperately to get rid of ETA if it wants to achieve something. It is messing it all up for the rest of us.

I’m referring to the one and only Spain that Franco wanted to build, which included Euskadi; how they were flooded by Spanish colonists (something like what China is doing with Tibet); and how their language and culture was replaced by the Spanish. Of course it was strategic, and even convenient to conquer Euskadi, but that doesn’t justify it.

Ah, ok, now I understand what you wanted to say. It's just that the word 'colonist' to me means someone from another country. Franco was not from another country, to the shame of this one.

But then again, the basques lands, centuries ago, joined this Castilla with the...mm..no idea of the english words that means Fueros. It was centuries ago and due to the movements there were back then. Anyway, back then no basque put into question we were spanish. Then things happened, and independency movements started. But that was later in the centuries. The nationalism is very recent, in the whole picture.

And I have no idea how I ended up talking history..:rolleyes:

By “the real ones” I’m referring to those whose ancestors are Basque, and have Basque surnames.

Ah, ok.

Although..well...I assume you know how terribly familiar that sounds, making distinctions about the 'purity' of the race.I've heard Germany had some issues with that in the past...

No, seriously. That train of thought borders the insult to the people that has worked and lived here for generations and feel as basque as the ones sporting basques surnames.

Exactly, but the voice of those seeking freedom and independence is never heard; just those who oppose and demonise them get to tell their story (whom by the way, own all the media and rule the governments). Did you ever heard the say: “history is written by victors”?

Unfortunaly yes, history is written by victors. And no, voices are not being heard. Yet. That's why basques don't want ETA. What ETA don't seem to realise is that it's even more difficult for those voices to be heard among the sounds of guns and bombs.

And what happens with the many Basque victims; the families of all of those killed, tortured and imprisoned?
I remind you that Gonzalez’s “democratic” government (the same party that is today in power) paid the paramilitary group “GAL” to kill and torture suspects just a few years ago.

Any death is terrible and should never happen, flyermay. That's a given, and what I've been trying to say all along. And GAL was, indeed, terrible and inhuman, I of course sympathise with the families that lost some loved one.

I'm only saying they were no angels in any shape or form. They kill innocents. How is that the path to independence? Death is never the path to anywhere. And if someone think it is, then it's proof enough that they are NOT the right choice.

And suspects are still being tortured today, there no doubt that those practices went on far beyond Franco’s death. I assume you understand Spanish, so this is a small example of what can happen when a suspect is detained: they can end up in the ICU of any hospital (though that’s barely ever shown on the news, thanks to the “summary secrets”).
http://www.youtube.com/v/D5AON2AKAoA

Yes, I can assure you I understand spanish very well... the result of being born in a place and no other, I guess...;)

I've also seen people literally knocking their haids like mad against a concrete wall, to go then to the nearest TV cam and shout "look what they did!!"
Which is just..well. Wow.

What I'm trying to say here, I think, is that the story always has, at least, two sides.

[quote]Many people are still imprisoned today just because of what they think. There is a law in Spain called “apology of terrorism” that’s used quite often to control what it’s said.

I'm not asking you this with any tone, so please don't take it that way. Are you living in Spain? Honest, just curious. Because then you know that that Apology of Terrorism has nothing to do with nationalism and the right to be part of independentist parties.

Ah ok, you're talking this here:

And any Basque parties that do not agree with Madrid’s government are illegalised, and their members often end up in jail, like: PCTV/EHAK, Batasuna, D3M, ANV, and God know how many more.

All parties that not only refuse to condemn the violence of ETA, but also encourage this path. THAT is apology of terrorism.

Dammit, I should actually stop mixing your points, lol:

And what about those politicians taken to court and forced to leave their “democratically elected” posts just because they didn’t condemn ETA’s actions? No wonder why everyone now condemns independentists, they have no other option!!!

*sigh* Because you can't have pro-murderings and pro-violence people running anything. It's, I don't know, basic.

And really, independentists are not condemned! A different thing is that in other parts of Spain don't understand it and therefore don't want it (exceptions of morons are everywhere, so I'm not even mentioning those obvious ones). But abertzales parties, the ones with real goals for a peaceful and independent Euskadi, are not banned, and they don't agree with the government at all.

They only agree in that death and violence must stop.

Now they are even detaining teenagers in the middle of the night accused of having participated (in the past) in protests.

Oh my...those. I'm not even going to start with those 'innocent' teenagers. But well, most of the time it's not only for having 'peacefully' participated in 'peaceful' protets, you know. More like peacefully detroying the land they allegedly love and are fighting for.

Didn’t the Spaniards have to kill and torture thousands of Basques to end up ruling over Euskadi?

Not exactly. Look it up in history books, basque history books, better. Radical leaflets do not count.

But what is terrorism? Is defending your land, language and culture terrorism?

Of course not. Defending your land, language and culture is something everyone should do. Doing it by killing innocents is not defending a land, is just killing innocents.

ETA kills basques. Real basques, to borrow your label, if they happen to disagree with ETA. That doesn't sound like a bunch of people wanting their freedom. We all know how that sounds.

Nice chat, flyermay :)

elisa

12-08-2009, 03:10 PM

Every Basque I have ever met and I have known quite a few, I still in touch with them, they all speak with the same voice, except very tiny minority of them who are corrupt. they all want their nation country to be FREE, independant from the two greedy Nations France and Spain.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a liar or misinformed. full stop

I have lived there for few years I know a lot of Basque people, wonderful people absolutely lovely human beings.

Yep. Basques are all that and more...;)

But unless you have lived and met basques from all over Euskadi, and I mean living for a good amount of time in many places, you can't full stop anything, adbasque. The Euskadi reality is complex and rich.

Living in Getxo is not the same that living in Bilbo, to take two places at random. Can the formers call liars the latters? Or viceversa?

But really, it's ok. I am starting to get how this works. I am not here to preach or convince anyone of anything. You all seem sure about things you don't even experience first hand. It's ok.

I just had to say that Euskadi is not ETA, and that we will never be free as long as ETA is still around killing basques and innocents and slowing the process.

Have a nice day, everyone. :)

adbasque

12-08-2009, 03:42 PM

I just had to say that Euskadi is not ETA, and that we will never be free as long as ETA is still around killing basques and innocents and slowing the process.

Have a nice day, everyone. :)

I am not in total disagreement with you here, the ETA has been infiltrated for decades now, yes they are killing innocents, I don't want to see Spanish people killed or Basque people killed, this is never a way to sort out differences.

However all the time I lived in the Basque countries, and the people I have met, none of them wanted violence, they all wanted peace believe me, they had nothing against the Spanish people, but against the Government and the King.

Don't get me wrong, I am not someone who would condone violence, there are ways to settle differences.

What I was pointing out, is the Elite's agenda to cause little distraction left right and centre, to keep us busy.

I was referring to the original movement of the Basque people, in which the ETA sprung from.

But now, I am sure the ETA operates under the full control of the illuminati.
Same thing in Ireland
Same thing in Palestine
Same thing in Kashmir

These terrorists are the NWO (Elite) orchestrated attacks against all people.

They don't care about the Spanish, Basque, French, Jews, Arabs, British etc.. they simply couldn't care less.

Franco was a dictator who put him in power?
Juan Carlos is an elitist.
so we know who's pulling the strings, I still have good friends on both sides, Basques and Spanish.

I don't want to see anyone hurt.
we should come together and stop the division.

flyermay

12-08-2009, 03:53 PM

Hi Elisa,

Just for the record I’m not defending killing any innocent people just because they’re pissed off or because they are Spanish (actually, it would be illegal for me to do so ;)).

Again, all this 'campaign' is about ETA, flyermay. About the people in arms, not about the nationaslism. Euskadi needs desperately to get rid of ETA if it wants to achieve something. It is messing it all up for the rest of us.

But the problem is that peaceful protests and political actions don’t work, you cannot sit down with an invader enemy who has ruled over your people for generations and simply tell them to leave.

Please bear in mind that ETA was born during (and because or) Franco’s brutal repression; which continued to a great extent during the transition, and well into the Spanish “democracy”.

Ah, ok, now I understand what you wanted to say. It's just that the word 'colonist' to me means someone from another country. Franco was not from another country, to the shame of this one.

Well… Franco’s troops and government officials (as well as today’s) were surely not Basque, at the contrary, their main goal was to turn every single Basque into Spaniards (same language and culture).

But then again, the basques lands, centuries ago, joined this Castilla with the...mm..no idea of the english words that means Fueros. It was centuries ago and due to the movements there were back then. Anyway, back then no basque put into question we were spanish. Then things happened, and independency movements started. But that was later in the centuries. The nationalism is very recent, in the whole picture.

And I have no idea how I ended up talking history..:rolleyes:

That’s fine, I really like history (as well as many here)… but those were by mutual consent, and not by force. The difference is that centuries ago Basques were allowed to keep their culture and language and to govern over themselves; and that is what they are asking for.

Although..well...I assume you know how terribly familiar that sounds, making distinctions about the 'purity' of the race.I've heard Germany had some issues with that in the past...

But that’s not the same case. In the case of Germany, Germans never lost control over their mainland and they thought of themselves as superior to other races. In the case of Euskadi, they just want to regain control over what is rightfully theirs and live in peace with everyone else. It’s not about race or genetics; it is about Basques ruling over Euskadi; as well as Spanish like to rule over Spain. What if the Muslim world takes over again half of Spain, would you be racists for defending yourselves.

No, seriously. That train of thought borders the insult to the people that has worked and lived here for generations and feel as basque as the ones sporting basques surnames.

I’m sorry, I realise how it sounds, and as I said before, you are trapped in the middle of a battle that you didn’t start personally. But please consider that they see you as invasors; as well as you saw Muslims when they took over Al Andalus. Again, it has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

Unfortunaly yes, history is written by victors. And no, voices are not being heard. Yet. That's why basques don't want ETA. What ETA don't seem to realise is that it's even more difficult for those voices to be heard among the sounds of guns and bombs.

Yes, I agree that ETA made huge mistakes by targeting so many innocent people that had nothing to do with their fight, and it’s true that it damaged their image more than helping them. But those same mistakes were made by both sides, with just one difference: the Spanish government was never in a desperate situation.

Any death is terrible and should never happen, flyermay. That's a given, and what I've been trying to say all along. And GAL was, indeed, terrible and inhuman, I of course sympathise with the families that lost some loved one.

But then, don’t you think that all those who lost someone (or something) now want their revenge? One thing is sure, ETA didn’t start the killing; they are a product of fascism.

I've also seen people literally knocking their haids like mad against a concrete wall, to go then to the nearest TV cam and shout "look what they did!!"

Oh, please Elisa, we all know police still tortures in Spain (and the rest of the world)… they even do it to common detainees, so imagine what they do to suspects of terrorism; which has been tagged as the worse crime you could do nowadays (well... except when governments commit it).

I'm not asking you this with any tone, so please don't take it that way. Are you living in Spain? Honest, just curious. Because then you know that that Apology of Terrorism has nothing to do with nationalism and the right to be part of independentist parties.

It’s fine. No, I’m not living in Spain right now, but I will go back very soon (I hope their not reading this :)). But I grew up in Spain, and half of my family are Spanish and live in Spain.

*sigh* Because you can't have pro-murderings and pro-violence people running anything. It's, I don't know, basic.

But that would include every single political party in Spain!!!

Is it not true that almost every politician in Spain supports their troops killing innocent women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan? So what is the difference with the Basques?... Oh, yes, they kill Spanish… That’s the only difference.

All parties that not only refuse to condemn the violence of ETA, but also encourage this path. THAT is apology of terrorism.

And really, independentists are not condemned! A different thing is that in other parts of Spain don't understand it and therefore don't want it (exceptions of morons are everywhere, so I'm not even mentioning those obvious ones). But abertzales parties, the ones with real goals for a peaceful and independent Euskadi, are not banned, and they don't agree with the government at all.

They only agree in that death and violence must stop.

I assure you they would love to do it peacefully and politely ask Spain to leave Euskadi, but that will simply not work. Do you think that people like throwing away and risking their lives? Most of those who decide to join are families or friends of those who have been killed tortured and imprisoned, they don’t do it for fun.

And that's what will happen in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, they have just created a whole generation full of hate and with nothing left to lose who are just thinking on getting their personal revenge, through the one means posible: terrorism!!! (but that's part of the plan, having us constantly under threat, enough to give up our freedoms).

Oh my...those. I'm not even going to start with those 'innocent' teenagers. But well, most of the time it's not only for having 'peacefully' participated in 'peaceful' protets, you know. More like peacefully detroying the land they allegedly love and are fighting for.

Well, they are probably not peaceful because ever single protest in favour of independence ends up with a police charge. It’s funny how the government systematically allows every single protest against them and bans every single one in favour.

Of course not. Defending your land, language and culture is something everyone should do. Doing it by killing innocents is not defending a land, is just killing innocents.

That I agree!!! But in every war, innocents are always the ones who pay the ultimate price.

ETA kills basques. Real basques, to borrow your label, if they happen to disagree with ETA. That doesn't sound like a bunch of people wanting their freedom. We all know how that sounds.

Well, they don’t kill any Basques, just the ones that cooperate with the enemy; what they call traitors. But I also don’t agree with those tactics.

Nice chat, flyermay :)

Thanks Elisa, it’s really nice to chat with another Spaniard (regardless of the disagreements ;))

lightgiver

12-08-2009, 10:21 PM

The reason why the origin of their language cannot be traced is because no one in history was able to fully conquer Euskadi; not even the Roman Empire.

Franco needed the help from the German airforce to conquer them. Guernica was the first ever urban civilian target in history to be air-bombed; symbolised in Picasso's famous painting of the same name.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/PicassoGuernica.jpg

Their language and culture was banned during the dictatorship, reason why ETA took on the arms to fight against fascism until today; yes, ETA has always been an anti-fascist group. Their language nearly dissapeared complately during those times; actually, it is the region of Spain with the lowest rates of people using (or even knowing) their own language.

About the Basques being genetically different, I can only say that if any of you had the chance of getting to know well any *real* Basque, you would surely noticed that they are quite different to anyone else (nothing to do with the Spaniards).

Yes FM,;) and Kaixo Zer moduz?

Musician Fermin Muguruza sings in the Basque language -- a language which was forbidden in Spain during Franco's regime. In this i Musician Fermin Muguruza sings in the Basque language -- a language which was forbidden in Spain during Franco's regime. In this interview Fermin Muguruza speaks about his personal experiences with music censorship in Spain: Its mechanisms, its impact on the artist, and the authorities' fear of what music can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwaY2KT3K3I

Eskerrik asko. LG :)

flyermay

12-08-2009, 10:48 PM

Yes FM,;) and Kaixo Zer moduz?

Musician Fermin Muguruza sings in the Basque language -- a language which was forbidden in Spain during Franco's regime. In this i Musician Fermin Muguruza sings in the Basque language -- a language which was forbidden in Spain during Franco's regime. In this interview Fermin Muguruza speaks about his personal experiences with music censorship in Spain: Its mechanisms, its impact on the artist, and the authorities' fear of what music can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwaY2KT3K3I

Eskerrik asko. LG :)

Glad you know them. For many years the "radical" movement in Euskadi has been talking not only about local problems, but also about many of the things that are now said in reference to the elite, the bankers, their lies and exploitation, state-terrorism, corporate abuse, religious hypnotism and hypocrisy, and so on and so forth. It was a real eye openner when we were teenagers.

elisa

14-08-2009, 02:57 PM

EDIT: Mm...so sorry Flyermay! I hadn't realised I was that chatty today, lol. Feel free to save your corneas and skip through the post or something :o

Hi Elisa,

Just for the record I’m not defending killing any innocent people just because they’re pissed off or because they are Spanish (actually, it would be illegal for me to do so).

Phew! ;) Kidding, kidding. I know. But some people do.

But the problem is that peaceful protests and political actions don’t work, you cannot sit down with an invader enemy who has ruled over your people for generations and simply tell them to leave.

No, not so far. Not anywhere, actually. That's why I think the key must be working on alternatives, which I'm not legally educated or even clever enough to come up with, I'm afraid. I just know that resorting to killing innocents is not the the way and must be rejected -always.

The funny (to say something...) thing of the generations issue you mention here is that there wasn't really any issues until over a century. So it's not like basques have been claiming independence since the XIII century or something. It's all very recent, stirred by the church, to add more spice to the mix.. (and now I'm stopping here before going historyish again, lol).

Well… Franco’s troops and government officials (as well as today’s) were surely not Basque, at the contrary, their main goal was to turn every single Basque into Spaniards (same language and culture)

Which was awful, simply awful. But again, everything surrounding that man was awful. He did atrocities. I'm thinking of andalusians now, for example. They have great struggles to get going, even nowadays, because it was always good that they were, and still are, somehow less developped than the rest of Spain, for some reason. The few politicians who seem to be good for them, never have a chance to do something.

And I just lost myself, yet again ...

Ah ok, about Franco and colonising. I still see the same, I'm afraid. Franco wasn't basque, but he wasn't andalusian or murcian or from canary islands either.Basque country was Spain, just like the rest, and he imposed himself on all the territory of SPain, to which Basque country already belonged. Peacefully (although a bit grumpy because of the fueros thing, again).

That’s fine, I really like history (as well as many here)… but those were by mutual consent, and not by force. The difference is that centuries ago Basques were allowed to keep their culture and language and to govern over themselves; and that is what they are asking for.

Yes, that was it. Their Fueros were respected. It was only later than they weren't. But nowadays is not then, really. It's not the ideal situation either, but we can't even compare those days with these days. It's not fair to truth and reality.

Basques have self-determination nowadays in ways than our ancestors never had, with language and culture and everything respected and kept, which is ironic.

I hate politics and politicians for a reason. No matter on what side, they are disgusting. And the odd poor ones who truly believe they can do something, are crushed by either the reality or their own broken hopes.

Now here's the trick: the independence is not possible, economically,right now. People are aware of this. Ask any business man, any farmer, any milk producer... If you actually go out there and ask, they all go "no no, I don't want it, it would be terrible for my business and the basque economy".

Perhaps we aren't prepared until we don't have a well thought out plan, not just this romantic idea of freedom. Romanticism is not enough, unfortunately.

And that's why I think that everyone involved, and I especially mean basque parties and ETA, are just using the basque issue to their own purposes. There's no other explanation to all this mayhem and nonsense and lack of real and solid plans.

But that’s not the same case. In the case of Germany, Germans never lost control over their mainland and they thought of themselves as superior to other races. In the case of Euskadi, they just want to regain control over what is rightfully theirs and live in peace with everyone else. It’s not about race or genetics; it is about Basques ruling over Euskadi; as well as Spanish like to rule over Spain. What if the Muslim world takes over again half of Spain, would you be racists for defending yourselves.

I just said all that about real basques and all because ETA DOES make those same dinstinctions, though. ETA also wants to FORCE neighbour provinces like Navarra to join, when they have never felt the need to part ways with Spain, just because they say it's part of Euskal Herria. Doesn't that sound a bit franco-ish?

It's surreal, really. That's why most of us go ballistic when we read about ETA being pitied and understood abroad. :(

But please consider that they see you as invasors; as well as you saw Muslims when they took over Al Andalus. Again, it has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

Remember how we've been going through the join to Castilla and yadayadayada? Well, that was in the XIII/XIV century.

Wouldn't it be more logical for us to have felt invaded earlier, and not after centuries of harmony? It's this whole "Spain invaded Euskadi" thing that I don't really understand, not from ETA's point of view anyway. I mean, it was not like we were conquered by Spanish troops by force. We did have self-determination, being Spain, long before Franco.

That's why I can't stand those who stirr hate nowadays because of THEIR own plans, and then mask them in the name of basque freedom.

Someone somewhere is very interested in spreading hate towards Spain and France and whatever in the middle, when there's no need for hating if you follow your path towards your goal.

(Really, just a couple of weeks involved in the forums and I'm already all for conspiracy theories :D)

Yes, I agree that ETA made huge mistakes by targeting so many innocent people that had nothing to do with their fight, and it’s true that it damaged their image more than helping them. But those same mistakes were made by both sides, with just one difference: the Spanish government was never in a desperate situation.

ETA keeps on making those mistakes, which to me are no mistakes, are assasinations and murderings in full conscience. The spanish government, even from the view of people who don't want it, still hasn't maimed kids or killed basques randomly. Which I'm grateful for, to be honest ;)

But then, don’t you think that all those who lost someone (or something) now want their revenge? One thing is sure, ETA didn’t start the killing; they are a product of fascism.

That revenge part is actually the main problem nowaydays. You see merely teenagers hating and hating and hating: spain, france, basque parties, basques with different opions...because they've been programmed to hate.
And to me that is as awful and unforgivable. Some people truly look like they actually want a repeat of the Civil War just to let their hate come out.

I sometimes truly consider to go and try to live in Antarctica...

And about ETA not starting...well. One is one's ultimate responsible for one's actions. ETA DID start THEIR killing innocents. They voluntarily took that path.

Spain was in a fascist dictatorship back then. There were killings everywhere. Following this logic, there should have been andalusian terrorists, catalan terrorists, Galician terrorists, Castilla terrorists, Murcian terrorist...and so and so.

But there aren't. You might say they weren't as repressed as basques were: true, they weren't. But they also suffered mass killings and had their freedom stolen. Only they didn't resort to random killings and violence as a response.

Oh, please Elisa, we all know police still tortures in Spain (and the rest of the world)… they even do it to common detainees, so imagine what they do to suspects of terrorism; which has been tagged as the worse crime you could do nowadays (well... except when governments commit it).

Of course there are corrupts everywhere, that's a given, so I didn't even mention it.

I was merely talking about what I have seen; not heard about, not read about. SEEN, with my eyes. Which of course does not mean the other isn't happening. It only means that this is happening too.

It’s fine. No, I’m not living in Spain right now, but I will go back very soon (I hope their not reading this ). But I grew up in Spain, and half of my family are Spanish and live in Spain.

Good! :)

Is it not true that almost every politician in Spain supports their troops killing innocent women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan? So what is the difference with the Basques?... Oh, yes, they kill Spanish… That’s the only difference.

Well, no. Not really.

One of the things I'm actually proud of: remember that Aznar guy who used to run Spain a few years ago? The entire country voted NO to the war, the other parties voted no too. Everybody was against it, and he went on anyway with his BFF George. Zapatero is actually dying to bring them back for good.

That is the main difference. We normal people were totally against the killing of innocents.ETA is all about killing of innocents. We didn't want Aznar. We don't want ETA. Simple :)

I assure you they would love to do it peacefully and politely ask Spain to leave Euskadi, but that will simply not work.

So they decide to start killing right and left. That doesn't work either :(

And that's what will happen in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, they have just created a whole generation full of hate and with nothing left to lose who are just thinking on getting their personal revenge, through the one means posible: terrorism!!! (but that's part of the plan, having us constantly under threat, enough to give up our freedoms).

The hate circle is just terrible, indeed.

In ETA's case, they are creating a generation full of hate for the hate; but they should pass along the message: they were created to fight for freedom. And now they don't even know what freedom is.

That I agree!!! But in every war, innocents are always the ones who pay the ultimate price.

Which sucks big time. It's frustrating.

Well, they don’t kill any Basques, just the ones that cooperate with the enemy; what they call traitors. But I also don’t agree with those tactics.

Those tactics are...no name for it.

But cooperating with the enemy? Mm. Not sure it's that simple.

ETA Steals freedom from the basques that don't agree with them, plain and simple. The government do the same, some might say. But at least the government is not trying to trick people into thinking they represent basques or basques goals.

Actually, they go as far as to try and press Navarra that they are Euskadi too. Navarra has a right to decide for themselves and they DON'T feel basque. WHy are they being pressured then?

Imagine that I'm a wealthy basque business man. I'm an independentist, because I truly don't feel spanish, but basque. I want Euskadi independent from Spain. I don't particularly have anything against them, spanish are naturally nice and I have many many friends all over the country. But in the same way I love my neighbours, I'm not them.

One day, ETA contacts me in a letter. They want my money to support them. They accuse me of not being a basque, of being a traitor, if I don't go with their requests. They insinuate that life is dangerous, so bad things might happen to me or my family members any day. They attach the picture of my daughter, taken just at my door. Another one of her leaving school. Another one of her with her friends at a birthday party somewhere.

What does that man do? He doesn't want violence. He's sick of silly murderings, he rejects their methods. But they have pictures of his daughter.

Of course I'm not saying names or anything, but that was a real case. ETA can't speak about freedom when THAT is their version of it.

Another one. Imagine I happen to find a new bakery that makes tasty cakes and all. My kids happen to love those cakes, so I start buying there sometimes. I am accused of traitor becuse that bakery (remember I only go there because of my children tastes in cakes), is run by an old man from Madrid.

Where's my freedom? I can't even go to a place they don't like without being 'warned'. Compared to that, there are days that I really think Spain is the last of basque issues until ETA is out of the equation.

Thanks Elisa, it’s really nice to chat with another Spaniard (regardless of the

disagreements )

Definitely! :) Which is hopeful, meaning there are still people out there that can manage a dialogue without resorting to sticks and stones..

Go us, lol. ;)

Hugs,

Elisa ~

elisa

14-08-2009, 03:04 PM

I am not in total disagreement with you here, the ETA has been infiltrated for decades now, yes they are killing innocents, I don't want to see Spanish people killed or Basque people killed, this is never a way to sort out differences.

However all the time I lived in the Basque countries, and the people I have met, none of them wanted violence, they all wanted peace believe me, they had nothing against the Spanish people, but against the Government and the King.

Hi adbasque. That's just it. Basques, the majority of them, want peace. Basques like Spain. Basques love and enjoy spanish people and culture. Some even feel spanish too, along basques, because they have always been, after all. Basques don't definitely want basques or other spanish people diying.

Those ETA asassins feeding on hate who claim to fight for the basques and a free Euskadi aren't the entire basque people. And so we don't want them to be seen like poor people trying to free their land, because that's how they want to be seen outside Spain. As if the whole basque country was supporting them, and they were representants of it.

About the rest of your post, ETA being infiltrated by these Elites.

I don't know much about this elite thing, adbasque (David Icke is not that well known in Spain), and I'm just starting to read what's his theory and all.

But you know what? I wouldn't be surprised about ETA being corrupted by someone. I myself, and I know I'm not the only one, have come to wonder what's wrong and why they are like..I don't know, like ruining any real attempt at pursuing independence when that's what they supposedly seek.

You see, ETA claims to seek independence, Basque peaceful people seek independence...but then no one in its sane mind would give ETA what they want. And I totally understand that. That would be like telling "Hey, killing and violence was the right way to go, after all!". They act more like Franco than the actual government.

Right now, it's getting to the point that we'd rather get rid of them and have basic freedoms, like eating tapas wherever we please or being friends with whoever we choose, or speaking and reading spanish when and if we please, than part ways with Spain.

I'm going to do some reading about those theories about elites. Kind of match with some things.

I don't want to see anyone hurt.
we should come together and stop the division.

How I hear you, adbasque. How I hear you. :(

Have a nice day.

Elisa ~

adbasque

14-08-2009, 03:27 PM

The Ideal world to live in is in my opinion as follows:

Every country will keep his identity and culture.
Every human being is free to travel from one country to another without any hassle.

Every country in the world should be stable economically and politically where the people rule for real.

Where countries can exchange goods, trade, in real harmony.
Where every human being is seen as such, no superior no inferior.

Where humans stop judging one another, stop the arrogance, stop the killing, establish trust, between individuals, between nations, no army will be needed, the army will be deployed only in case of a natural disaster because there's always panic and confusion in these circumstances, so the army can keep some order, but for no other reason.

Where humans can bury their differences, and we all become tolerant of each other's beliefs and choices of in our own lives.

It can be achieved if only people pull try and get together, and say No to division, and stop being manipulated, above all stop finding excuses for division.

Someone is a Jew, Muslim, Christian, White, Chinese, Black, short, fat, etc..
We all respect each other and reinstate the true values of the human race, prove to each other that we really are intelligent and division is a thing of the past.

You may say I am a dreamer but I am not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be (AS) one
John Lennon (Imagine)

The world will be as one, that doesn't mean we kill our individual cultures, each nation should hold on to it's own culture.
And that's what makes this world so beautiful it is its divirsity, we should really be thankful for what we are and who we are.

For the ones who are trying to divide us, we either cast them out, or re-educate them.

If need be, we stick them all on deserted island cut off the rest of the world who wants to live in peace.

astrochicken

17-08-2009, 11:06 AM

The Ideal world to live in is in my opinion as follows: ......

AND

Mind-expanding drugs should not be criminalized and freely available to all those sound of mind.

flyermay

19-08-2009, 01:49 PM

Sorry for the delay Elisa; I’ve been trying to shorten the message without leaving any points out (but as you can see, it's still quite long).
The funny (to say something...) thing of the generations issue you mention here is that there wasn't really any issues until over a century. So it's not like basques have been claiming independence since the XIII century or something. It's all very recent, stirred by the church, to add more spice to the mix.. (and now I'm stopping here before going historyish again, lol).
…
But again, everything surrounding that man was awful. He did atrocities. I'm thinking of andalusians now, for example. They have great struggles to get going, even nowadays, because it was always good that they were, and still are, somehow less developped than the rest of Spain, for some reason. The few politicians who seem to be good for them, never have a chance to do something.
…
Spain was in a fascist dictatorship back then. There were killings everywhere. Following this logic, there should have been andalusian terrorists, catalan terrorists, Galician terrorists, Castilla terrorists, Murcian terrorist...and so and so.

Well, they started claiming freedom as soon as they started to be repressed and their culture, language and auto determination threatened.

Yes, but you have to realise that Franco’s policies continue during the transition and well into the democracy (the GAL was not Franco’s ideal).

The difference is that the worst atrocities happened in Euskadi, were whole civilian populations were bombed and whipped out. Many other anti-fascist groups also appeared in Spain, like GRAPO and other minor regional ones.

No, not so far. Not anywhere, actually. That's why I think the key must be working on alternatives, which I'm not legally educated or even clever enough to come up with, I'm afraid. I just know that resorting to killing innocents is not the the way and must be rejected -always.

Both side have tried many times to solve the problem through dialogue, but it never worked. The case is that Spanish prisons are full of political prisoners and prisoners of war; and now they are even imprisoning anyone just for expressing their opinions.

I know what you are going to say, that they have been imprisoned for supporting murderers; but then, shouldn’t they also imprison anyone that supports their troops killing civilians abroad?

Basques have self-determination nowadays in ways than our ancestors never had, with language and culture and everything respected and kept, which is ironic.

I don’t think they do, they are currently governed by a Lehendakari whose surname is Lopez, then by the Spanish government, and then to a great extent by the European Union.

And look at what still goes on: just this week there have been many cases of bars closed for what they think, many peaceful protests banned, and a call from the Lehendakari to "zero tolerance".

ETA keeps on making those mistakes, which to me are no mistakes, are assasinations and murderings in full conscience. The spanish government, even from the view of people who don't want it, still hasn't maimed kids or killed basques randomly. Which I'm grateful for, to be honest ;)
That revenge part is actually the main problem nowaydays. You see merely teenagers hating and hating and hating: spain, france, basque parties, basques with different opions...because they've been programmed to hate.
And to me that is as awful and unforgivable. Some people truly look like they actually want a repeat of the Civil War just to let their hate come out.

But even though, with infinite more resources than ETA, they made horrible mistakes too and many innocents were (and still are) affected.

And I agree that violence is a vicious circle, and that hate provokes even more hate, but one side is allowed to take their revenge (torturing and imprisoning) and for the other side the only option is to forgive and forget.

I was merely talking about what I have seen; not heard about, not read about. SEEN, with my eyes. Which of course does not mean the other isn't happening. It only means that this is happening too.
Look at this video, this is what the police do when they accuse detainees of injuring themselves (and I assure you that the British “bobbies” are way nicer than the Spanish “nationals”)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXFMIbkKMMc

I hate politics and politicians for a reason. No matter on what side, they are disgusting. And the odd poor ones who truly believe they can do something, are crushed by either the reality or their own broken hopes.

I sometimes truly consider to go and try to live in Antarctica...
lol, me too: I also can’t stand politicians; they are salesmen turned into professional liars. But on the other hand, my interest in politics grows ever day; especially all referent to the main stream political manipulation and control.

And you might think I’m joking; but you wouldn’t believe how many times I dream about moving to a place like Antarctica. :)