Religion, why? [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

islamvslizards

29-07-2009, 11:35 AM

you know, there is a quotation that goes along the lines of "the wisest of people are those who ask the wisest of questions", your question wasnt insulting/ attacking in any way, its actually an excellent starter for discussion.

i can only speak for myself, so this is how i came to what i believe in.

i come from a science background - my first degree in university was a genetics/ biology/ medical science based bsc. the more i studied the human body, the more i came to realise that there was no chance this happened by random accident. small scale point - evolution is one thing, and is provable and quanifiable, but "the origin of species" theory written by darwin was a load of crap. and thats speaking as someone who studied evolution to university level, and whose tutors were ALL non religious.

my "eureka" moment, where i finally came to accept that there was definately a creator, was studying the actual double helix itself. the way it replicates, the way it binds with RNA, mitosis and meiosis, everything.

lets say darwin was right and we all came from monkeys who came from fish who came from bacteria...where did the DNA come from? how did its functionality evolve?

my need for religion came from my yearning to learn more about the creator of DNA, and the creator of the infinite details of the world around me.

my religion does not separate me from the creator - it makes the bond stronger. to increase my spirituality i spend 5 times a day stopping whatever im doing and remembering my creator, i watch what i eat, drink, do, all in order to improve myself physically and spiritually - islam isnt about blanket bans or blanket acceptance, islam is always the middle path, the medium between two extremes, the moderate option.

the restrictions placed on me are common sense - dont eat or drink something that will damage my body/ health, marry for life and be good to your wife and kids and parents, dont get trapped into paying interest, dont disrespect women by looking at porn/ leering at women on the street, and above all, why i think islam is a wiser choice than christianity, is that it teaches me to never turn the other cheek - if someone attacks you then it is your basic right to defend yourself. when the shit hits the fan this attitude will be more useful than just taking it.

secondly, islam, in my opinion only, far surpasses other religions in scholarship. 1400 years ago isnt that long ago, and the ahlebeyt and their followers philosophies, actions and sayings are very well documented and recorded, and the chain of narrators is identifiable. as such, i trust scholars who have spent 40 - 50 years studying the narrations and quran, and who live simple, humble, quiet lives to be telling the truth.

when it comes to modern issues, such as the legitimacy of stem cell research, the scholars have funded and opened, and sponsor, scientists from all over the world and take their research into account as well as the ancient texts.

one of the titles of these scholars is "mujtahid" - literally scientist. as well as studying texts they also dedicate phd level research into the 3 sciences, even economics and business, all under the umbrella of "islamic research".

so why do i follow islam as a religion? because i believe it brings me closer to the creator, and i believe that the system we have to give us the tools to allow this are reliable.

i hope this answers your question, there is much more i would like to say, but dont want to start waffling lol

peace

merla

29-07-2009, 05:14 PM

Ok , just to be clear on this im not attacking anyone's religion as , its a waist of my time and your's as it wont get anything done. I however have a seriouse question for people.

Why do you fallow your religion? , what was it about the religion that made you think "this is it" so to say. I would prefer people who converted later in life around 16+ as they didnt have the idea's forced on them from a young age. Please state your religion if you answer please.

I don't perticularly follow religion per say, I have a relationship with God, I feel things on a spiritual level, my upbringing was traditional church of england with a dash of spiritual warfare thrown in but I rebelled against it for a short time in my teens because I'd seen too much too young (my grandparents' house was full of an evil presence and my step mother had something strange going on too) and it scared me off, I choice to ignore the Divine because those things left me alone if I did.

I don't think any brand of religion is totally right, I don't think it's posible because we are falible humans trying to describe something beyond our comprehension. I see myself as a Christian because I feel that my God is the one in the Bible and a lot of the things I experienced in my childhood point that way but I don't think I'd fit into any one specific denomination. The whole point of faith is to have a living relationship with your creator and to walk your own path of discovery with them at your side to guide you in the right direction while at the same time you're totally free to ignore them and go your own way. Personally I've found that my own way is not the best way in most cases and although His way doesn't always make sense it works out better.

Just to clarify a little, I never had ideas forced on me from an early age, I had a choice whether I believed or not but when you've seen and felt the kind of things I have then it's pretty conclusive that there is something more out there. :)

islamvslizards

29-07-2009, 05:56 PM

lightgiver

30-07-2009, 01:44 AM

Everyone has a right to decide his own destiny,that's why without interference.:)

bendoon

30-07-2009, 02:41 AM

I would really call myself non religious allthough my beliefs are broadly what would be termed Christian, the reason I say I am not religious is because I do not align with any particular Christian sect/church. After searching for the truth for around 5 years, the Bible is the only thing I have found that comes anywhere answering all the questions about things that are happening in these troubled times.

merla

30-07-2009, 08:29 AM

i agree with what you are saying - each person has a direct connection to their creator. the only difference between us is that i follow one set of guidelines that i believe will increase my spirituality, such as regular prayers and fasting etc, and you follow another. ultimately, however, we are just people on the same path. ive never once agreed with the need to "discuss" which faith is right and which is wrong, although i do think that people should be given chances to clear up misconceptions about their faiths.

Agreed, I would never be so arrogant as to assume I knew someone was wrong unless it was misconceptions/mistakes about my faith or in the case of obvious scam cults taking advantage of people searching for the answer and providing them with nothing fruitful in return for their money (yes I'm aware some people think that of Christianity but my relationship with God is what matters not whether I belonged to the right club). I love debating religion with other people, discussing what we believe and why but not arguing over who's right; that's just pointless and like I said at the start arrogant.

I like your story of how you found God, sorry if this sounds a bit mushy but it really is beautiful. :o
It always baffles me that people think science and religion must be at odds, science is just the word we use to describe the knowledge we have of the world around us, it's not some anti-God outside force.

tusme

30-07-2009, 09:10 AM

manxboz

30-07-2009, 10:59 AM

I joined wat some would call a bad mind-control cult, the reason i did this was because i was in a very bad patch with sucide attempts, losing my family, prison. Whilst in prison i prayed, the first time since i was younger (i was a religious fanatic when at school, though my own choosing) and a day later i was let out of my soldiatry cell to go to the small libary and there staring at me was this religions book, i never saw it before in the libary but i was drawn to it. I tried reading it but it made no sense to me, but i kept it by my bed until i was released. The first weekend i was released i was walking down the prom (since being locked away for 23 out of 24 hours a day, you really appreciate the outside and freedom you have) and i had this voice, this urge to turn left down a side street (which took me off course) and i came to the Main Street on the Island (we only have like one main street full of shops) and there i was approached by this religions missionaries, instantly i remembered the Book i had in prison and i set up an appointment to see the missionaries to discuss this religion. This religion picked me up, dusted me off and made me a new man, i have since become a member of their priesthood, i am now seeing it as part of my journey where i need to find my own path but this is just one of the many roads ill take since i started to wake up.

merla

30-07-2009, 12:19 PM

This religion picked me up, dusted me off and made me a new man, i have since become a member of their priesthood, i am now seeing it as part of my journey where i need to find my own path but this is just one of the many roads ill take since i started to wake up.

This is another really great story, very moving, I'm glad you found what you needed :)

I had a somewhat similar experience when I was 14-15 that pulled me back from my choice to ignore the spiritual side of life; I was in the garden of my grandparent's house (yes the same one that contributed to me being scared off) and was just stood thinking, I had had a very deep and complicated conversation about religion and what I believed the day before which had forced me to admit that I still compltely believed although I had been merrily going on my way without giving it a second thought, it wasn't that I didn't think God was there, I knew He was, it was more I had slammed the door shut in His face because I couldn't handle the spiritual attacks that had been plaguing my family. The house was in the countryside and the garden was massive and full of broken clay pipes and bits of old plates or what have you, it was quite clear that at some point in the past there had been a different house on this spot, I used to collect the pieces because I'm interested in archeology. I would have loved to get Tony Robinson to come and have a dig around but no one else was interested in the history of the place.

Anyway, I was standing there mulling things over, trying to figure out what to do and I felt a voice telling me to look down and there on the soil in the flower bed I was standing by was a very small crucifix, it was obviously old and was barely visible in the earth it was sat on. I would never have seen it if I haven't had that urge, I was absolutely over-awed, it was the clearest sign/ message I've ever had, it was as if He was telling me He had always been there and always would be no matter what.

I never found anything other than bits of clay pipe, old glass or china before or after that.

fantabulous

01-08-2009, 09:05 PM

The purpose of religion was to direct people toward the truth, which of course includes the truth about the true existence of God.

The second purpose of religion, was to keep people at a distance from the truth until the time comes when the majority of people of this world are ready to receive it directly. This distance protects them from being in a dangerously close proximity with that which is an extreme threat to them in endless ways.

As you know, you are only dependent upon beliefs if you at a distance from the truth itself. Religious believers stick to their beliefs. This has gone on for thousands and thousands of years. Thus mankind has grown used to being accustomed to being at a distance from the truth, via the ongoing practice of belief systems.

Thus truths of an enormously grand scale are currently only accepted from a distance, in a form known as a belief.

Therefore, at this moment, if these grand truths were presented to mankind, they would reject them instantly. They would immediately back away from such truths to once again set a distance between themselves and the truth, and do so by once again allowing the mind to function via the practice of beliefs / disbeliefs, which as I said can only occur if you ARE at a distance from the truth.

Roughly 2,000 years ago, a fellow made a point about this. He presented grand truths to the few who were ready and able to accept grand truths, and he also presented theses truths to those who preferred to be believers and thus placed their beliefs first in line when it came to decision making.

Those who could see and hear the truth thus accepted the grand truths he presented.

After hearing his words concerning the grand truths, those who chose to be believers and thus put their beliefs first in line, spat in his face, called him a liar, a blasphemer, flogged him, scourged him, and crucified him.

By placing beliefs at the top of the ladder, truth had to be relocated. Since it can't be repositioned any higher, it is repositioned all the way down to the bottom where it has to start all over, which also is as far away from where truth actually belongs.

With this being the case, the believers saw the grand truths exposed by this fellow, who also went by the name of Jesus Christ, as the exact opposite of the truth, thus he was treated in the exact opposite manner of which he should have been treated.

Thus today, the religious believers would perceive Christ as the Anti-Christ, and the Anti-Christ as the Christ, if a direct contact occured in real time.

I know, you don't believe this do you!

fantabulous

01-08-2009, 09:41 PM

... Thus today, the religious believers would perceive Christ as the Anti-Christ, and the Anti-Christ as the Christ, if a direct contact occurred in real time.

But as I said, there would be no luck when it comes to having direct contact with a grand truth today. Anyone in flesh who claimed to be Christ would immediately be classified as a person who is in a psychotic mind state and is clearly experiencing delusions, hallucinations, etc., and the investigation stops dead in the tracks right there.

So there is a long wait ahead before people finally will see that truth is more truthful than a belief. They will finally realize that truth is not at a distance from itself.

I know, you don't believe this do you!

bendoon

02-08-2009, 03:07 AM

And perhaps, as then, the majority will not believe the truth, but believe their beliefs.

adbasque

02-08-2009, 07:08 AM

Imho, Religion is a man-made construct, ie, only exists within this Physical Dimension...and I suspect, for the purposes of control...

The Spirit being, which is Infinite, requires no Religion to exist in this Physical & Spirit Dimension...at the point of the first breath (birth), it (the Spirit being) chooses to exist in the Physical being regardless...thus, the Physical being is merely the "vehicle" for the Spirit being's experience/expression in this Physical Dimension...thus also, at the point of the last breath, the Spirit being simply departs the Physical being...to continue it's (Truth) journey, again, as exclusively Spirit Truth energy...in other words, exactly as it did before the Physical being's birth...

I respect your opinion, about religion is a man made, however I have to disagree with you.

Yes I agree with some of your points, but
why are we in this body?
Why is it for a short while?
Who decided to come to life into this vehicle for a short while and then we depart it again? :)
I mean what you've said above, is not wrong we are indeed infinite spirits, but why didn't we just made to live as spirits and more importantly who took this decision for us to be in this world for a little while and then we leave it again in order to go back to our original shape and why such a short while and not few hundred million years?

adbasque

02-08-2009, 07:49 AM

Ok , just to be clear on this im not attacking anyone's religion as , its a waist of my time and your's as it wont get anything done. I however have a seriouse question for people.

This is a pefectly reasonable and genuine question, you're not attacking anyone, as IVL mentioned above.
You're absolutely right, we don't want to waste our time in arguing who's right and who's wrong.

Why do you fallow your religion? , what was it about the religion that made you think "this is it" so to say. I would prefer people who converted later in life around 16+ as they didnt have the idea's forced on them from a young age. Please state your religion if you answer please.

I have decided to answer this from "my" personal experience
I was born into what we call a typical Christian family (Church Of England)

I was not very religious as I was growing up read the Bible it made some sense but not all of it.

But I started asking all sorts of questions, regarding our existence, why the world is shaped the way it is, why is there so much suffering and so on and so forth.
All I heard was religion was at the base of these atrocities, and I started to ask questions about every living thing, how come everything is so perfectly synchronised, I don't believe in coicidences, I don't believe in things happening by themselves.
So I started my journey as a teenager, I started travelling meeting other people, harvesting their knowledge and their opinions, comparing people's points of view.
I lived in many different countries, from Europe to Africa, to the Middle East and so on..

The first thing that really stroke me was the fact of hearing so many conflicting sides, on one hand I hear people accusing religion of being the cause of all the evil, and on the other hand I watch that religion was attacked then I started digging into religion.

The more I dug the more I discovered certains things about life, about humanity, about caring, about many other aspects that touches all our lives.

So, more questions arose from that, if this is the source of all evil, how come I haven't found a direct link to evil then?
Then I started to look at the problems more closely, as you would carry any other investigation.

Who has more to gain from religion?
Who wants religion out of the way and why?
Who's really using religion for their own gains, and what are those gains?
Why do we need religion?
Why are there more than one religion?

Who's trying to confuse the masses and for what purpose?
What were the links between wars and religion?
So I started learning, well first of all it took me years of research before I decided yes this is it.
Convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt, from scientific, historical facts and lots of common sense.

Then I started looking at what most people call contradictions, so far I have found none, the only things that some people have pointed out as being contradictions, were in fact nothing but their misconception and total misunderstanding of a specific part of the religion, which most people didn't bother to take that extra step to find out the truth truth.

All signs around us point to the creator, if we only care to look.
Let's face it, a lot of people only recently noticed the Pyramid on the US dollar the one eye, etc.. if it wasn't pointed out to them, they wouldn't see it.

The other thing that I took very seriously is the events mentioned in the religion that started to unfold some have already come out some still yet to come out etc..

In order to understand religion you need patience, dedication, and lot of questions.
If you just glance at religion, you will not see much, it's like a blured picture
unless you do some enhancement to it you won't be able to see it clearly.

The reasons being, we need to remove the cloud over our eyes first, take a fresh new approach, with a clean mind, leave our ego to one side, be prepared to be proven wrong, accept the fact you were lied to since you were born.

You should be able to link the dots if you can't do that something is missing you need to find it, not dismiss it, but find it.

It's there all you need to do is look for it, no matter how long it will take you.
From my own experience, God will help you, if you are genuine he will help you to see the truth (light)
The first thing to do is not to choose a religion and then start digging, but start digging and then you will see the path to the religion.

Religion is the path and the link between you and your maker.
That's all I have to say for now.

tusme

02-08-2009, 06:52 PM

I respect your opinion, about religion is a man made, however I have to disagree with you.

Yes I agree with some of your points, but
why are we in this body?
Why is it for a short while?
Who decided to come to life into this vehicle for a short while and then we depart it again? :)
I mean what you've said above, is not wrong we are indeed infinite spirits, but why didn't we just made to live as spirits and more importantly who took this decision for us to be in this world for a little while and then we leave it again in order to go back to our original shape and why such a short while and not few hundred million years?
Hi Adbasque,

We're in this "body" because of "our" Spirit (Truth) energy...without it, the first breath is not possible, and thus, neither is the Physical being's existence...

It's for "a short while", due to the Physical Dimension's principles, properties and conditions...otherwise, could you imagine a physical being existening for 500 hundred years? :rolleyes:

Through the Spirit (Truth) energy, every Physical being which existed, still exists and yet still to exist, are all perfectly ONE (Infinite Consciousness) Spirit Truth energy...meaning, every Physical being was CHOSEN for a Truth experience in this Physical Dimension...!!

As for your question, re, "why didn't we just made to live as spirits"...? Truth is, we do exist (vibrate) as Spirits, but for some reason or other, just not aware of such a consciousness existing within and Infinitely beyond our Physical Being and the Physical Dimension...

Spirit (Truth) energy is Infinite, besides this Physical Dimension, it also exists (vibrates) perfectly as One with/in the Spirit (GOD) Dimension...thus, for the Spirit (Truth) energy there is "no beginning nor end"...hmm, how would you prefer to equate "few hundred million years" to anything which is Infinite...!? :(

Compare it with the Physical being's existence however, then our Physical being's existence is literally a "flash"...through this Physical Dimension...and, at the rate mankind is going, just as well...I suspect, the Spirit being would be "thinking"... :D

kanz

22-11-2009, 05:21 AM

phildee3

22-11-2009, 07:02 AM

bump

Thanks for all the above posts, let try and keep this thread alive. As i said i would prefer only religulous people to answer as they are the only ones who can give me the info i thurst after.

Any posts would be greatly appreciated .

Hi kanz,
I became a practicing Catholic, in 1983, at the age of 35.
I am still practicing.

Why?
Because I find the seven sacraments to be effectual.

sweetsoundofgrace

22-11-2009, 08:20 AM

well, i WAS raised Christian,
but am now slowly residing, now i understand some of it.

Michael Tsarion explains as having all to do with our ego, our fear

i think you can make two huge collumns on a sheet of paper,
making one side 'FEAR' and the other 'LOVE',
and see even things like sorcery/magic being complete opposites.

the churches i have attended, always were sincerely seeking for more love,
and pouring it out into the world, you know, it's all very good initially.

but... we have closed off many essential areas for true spirituality,
giving away our power and trust, while it is part of ourselves from birth.

a christian's ultimate view on spirituality
oftentimes is complete surrender,
and i fear that is not meant as surrender of your ego to your self,
but to 'God'

so... i guess it is mainly a matter of the spell of society's indoctrination
to say you are in need for an outside being/force/value/idea/anything,
to make it through life, and to find your identity

it is only now i start to see the nonsense of it all,
no matter how far and deep the journey goes

hope it makes a little sense,
i am still digging my way out of the system,
while not rejecting all the wonderful pure hearts
that make up the body of my church

peace & love :)

jeg293

22-11-2009, 10:31 AM

In just over 3 years, I have come from position as very-active, involved Born Again Christian to above-all-religion Truthseeker... It's been an incredible journey, and a conscious decision (finally) to follow the Voice inside rather than externals. It is a hard thing to let go of 'fear of deception' and 'satan appearing as angel of light', etc. Also, it's a big thing to leave behind all that you gave your life to for many, many years, but this incredible Voice/Energy inside led me step-by-step OUT OF AND ABOVE RELIGION very gently, and I stumbled an awful lot along the way, in fear sometimes of what I was leaving and fear of what I was entering. David Icke talks a bit about 'synchronicity' - events/situations falling into place for you at just the right time - leading you on. This has happened, and I was led to writings/audios, etc., that slowly unravelled me from this prison of taking another person's word (as 'gospel'!) to gradually learning to follow that Voice within.

Have any of you heard of a book called "The Christ Conspiracy - the greatest story ever sold"? Did you know that throughout pre-Christian history, there have been as few as 12 and as many as 26 'Saviour-myths' in legends/religions, with almost identical stories to that of Jesus Christ? Almost exact same life stories, from birth to a virgin, being born in a manger/cave, wise men visiting, the same miracles and death as Jesus Christ, etc? The Cross symbol is not unique to Christianity either. All religions are recycled legends of previous ones. Whatever about you, this all BLEW ME AWAY. My Saviour wasn't unique and religious books have been put together by 'who' I don't know, but used mainly to control and ensure that the populace go to a person for their spiritual food rather than to God within. Haven't time to go into it, but it's another step out of systems to read such a book.... The footnoting and evidence in this book is detailed.

dedicate

22-11-2009, 01:23 PM

phildee3

22-11-2009, 01:44 PM

Religion is the path and the link between you and your maker.

Some religions are - notably the Abramic (Yahwist) religions.

But there are others that go beyond that - to before our creation - to the infinite no-beginning.

jeg293

22-11-2009, 08:06 PM

Dedicate said: "The Pendulum swings! -- "I have come from position as very-active, involved Born Again Christian" to saying, "My Saviour wasn't unique and religious books have been put together by 'who' I don't know, but used mainly to control and ensure that the populace go to a person for their spiritual food rather than to God within"

It is amazing to me, how many people who were once Born Again evangelicals move to opposite polarity of rejecting Christianity. Like they never found the good in their religion while they were Evangelicals. -- it was all a bad mistake. Sad to hear that. Actually nothing has changed for you. You are like the CIA agent who believes in America who then turns active anarchist, robbing banks and blowing up buildings."

Actually, Dedicate, you show zero discernment of me and don't know me. What you say above is very untrue of me. Unlike you said, I DID get a huge benefit from my years in the Christian church, and learned to love God as I understood in my limited way. It is because of this genuine searching and desire to grow, that I was led on further. I do NOT think it was a bad mistake (Christianity), but I know a lot more now than I did then, and still have a long way to go. I'm shocked at your arrogant reply and ignorance. If you knew me, you'd know that what you've said is unjust and erroneous. Many people are being led out of religion - it is not bad in itself, but it DOES encourage people to trust a man/personage rather than the Voice within.

nirvana

22-11-2009, 08:37 PM

A few months ago I was obsessed with all the latest conspiracy theories. I had been doing this for a number of years .Never finding much peace allways trying to gain more knowledge Untill I started to think to myself what the fuck am i doing .I felt like I was just going round in circles .Getting more angry as the days went on.

Then I started to go to a chuch with my mate {who has been a born again christian for 10 yrs}
In side the chuch ive never seen so many peaceful people .All the christians there seemed to be happy and have a deep peace.

My mate told me he had been homeless befor going to church and when he went to church after a few weeks ,the church helped to get him somewhere to live. Also all the congregation helped him to kit his new flat out.

Im not baptised or anything and still only really playing with the christian idea. But so far Ive become alot more peaceful met a wonderful girlfriend who is pregnant now {and were not married :eek:} So Im about to become a father next year.

My 2pence worth is that i feel a peace there where i dont get anywhere else ,if that makes any sense:)

phildee3

22-11-2009, 08:41 PM

kanz,
Where are you, and what are you doing with the data you are collecting here?

dedicate

23-11-2009, 02:59 AM

I quoted you jeg293. You said it more than I did. You think the good you got out of your involvement in Christian Evangelicalism is you "learned to love God as I understood in my limited way".? Wow! Everybody has that! -- even the atheist.

Anyway, you are "above religion" now? eh? (The way you were above all else while an evengelical, maybe?) I guess that means you are better than me, since I'm not above religion. Not yet. Hey that's OK. Some people ARE above it. None that I know of would say some of the things you are saying here, though. Actually most would pay homage to the religion which showed them the way out,, or at least recognize the unique gunuine aspects of the teachings -- of all religions.

P.S. You stated: "Religion DOES encourage people to trust a man/personage rather than the Voice within".. That's not what it encourages me to do. Maybe you are the weak one and not so much everybody else; needing a person to believe in. Maybe religion has shown me the way of trust, but not what you are saying here.

delamo1999

23-11-2009, 10:43 PM

dedicate

24-11-2009, 10:39 PM

Nothing more from jeg293? I thought maybe he would have some pertinent questions,, not just denial and indignation. Oh well, it is probably a healthy feeling to hate the system that pulled the wool over one's eyes for so long,, even when done in the name of religion. I just thought it would be helpful in this instance to remind him it was his fault he got taken. And if one is to rise above it all, then one must eventually take responsiblity for all that one has done; no one's fault but mine, attitude.

I'm sure he would agreee with me.

jeg293

27-11-2009, 08:30 AM

Hi Dedicate! I'm a lady, not a man. I'm not into bowing to attacks, and don't get the blast of them in my off-forum life, so I'm not going to start now. Hatred of people is never part of my life, and I see you're an arrow drawn, so I will bow gracefully out of this. Peace to you and yours!

nicolaj

27-11-2009, 09:21 AM

I believe no one can pluck you out of Gods hands if you really are his.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

geolaureate8

27-11-2009, 09:30 AM

The Pendulum swings! -- "I have come from position as very-active, involved Born Again Christian" to saying, "My Saviour wasn't unique and religious books have been put together by 'who' I don't know, but used mainly to control and ensure that the populace go to a person for their spiritual food rather than to God within"

It is amazing to me, how many people who were once Born Again evangelicals move to opposite polarity of rejecting Christianity. Like they never found the good in their religion while they were Evangelicals.

There is no good to be found in religion. Period. The only thing it was good for was to act as a negative catalyst, or terrible tragedy that needed to be overcome. Just like wars and political manipulation. They're not the least bit good, but were a challenge that needed to be overcome.

-- it was all a bad mistake. Sad to hear that.

It was all a bad mistake. I agree totally with what jeg293 is saying.

Actually nothing has changed for you. You are like the CIA agent who believes in America who then turns active anarchist, robbing banks and blowing up buildings.

What a terrible and misrepresenting analogy. jeg didn't resort to absolute nihilistic, materialistic atheism. Maybe then your analogy might be accurate. However, that's not the case.

dedicate

27-11-2009, 10:08 AM

You must be young, geolaureate8. I would imagine you listen to loud music, party too much, and believe you can do anything you like.-- no consequences. So you don't like to be told what to do because you know what is best. It will be some years yet, if you are fortunate, and you will discover "my way" was not "the way".

It's obvious to me, because you don't understand what I'm saying. Actually, it seems you are jumping to conclusions,, not adding two + two, or asking the correct questions. Just like most youth today.-- educated and uneducated. They always know what is what and who is who. No experience to teach them,, no adults to show them the way.

For example, you don't seem to know what an analogy is, or you did not really look at what was said. I said, "You have not changed"... The point was the original poster has not changed.. I did not say anthing about him being nihlistic or atheistic. What you are saying here is not how one would interpret an analogy.

The analogy was,, -- you have only put on an opposite set of clothes, looks totally different, but you have not changed,,, from the evengelical to the rejecting of the Christianity with no real differance between the two. Like the terrorist CIA agent killing foreigners in the name of Justice and Freedom,, who discovers he was not really doing anything for the good of the nation so becomes an anarchist robbing banks and blowing up buildings -- no change. Only the belief that one has changed, and now stands on the right side of things. The pendulum swings!

It may be hard for you to accept, geolaureate8, but, most likely, you have picked up your beliefs about religion without scrutiny,, and have accepted them without much question. -- exactly the thing you dislike about religion people.

geolaureate8

27-11-2009, 10:56 AM

You must be young, geolaureate8.

I'm 21, however this is irrelevant.

I would imagine you listen to loud music, party too much, and believe you can do anything you like.-- no consequences.

I like music, yes. Party? No. I do accept that there are consequences for actions. However, I may disagree with the reason behind some of the consequences.

So you don't like to be told what to do because you know what is best.

No one has authority over my mind or my actions.

It will be some years yet, if you are fortunate, and you will discover "my way" was not "the way".

I accept that I do not know everything and that I am still in the middle of progress. However, I have progressed passed all the things that I now know are false like religion, politics, just like we have progressed past the flat earth concept.

It's obvious to me, because you don't understand what I'm saying. Actually, it seems you are jumping to conclusions,, not adding two + two, or asking the correct questions. Just like most youth today.-- educated and uneducated. They always know what is what and who is who. No experience to teach them,, no adults to show them the way.

I understand what you're saying, perhaps you don't understand my response.

For example, you don't seem to know what an analogy is, or you did not really look at what was said. I said, "You have not changed"... The point was the original poster has not changed.. I did not say anthing about him being nihlistic or atheistic.

You misunderstood what I said. I never claimed that you called him nihilistic or atheistic. I was saying that your analogy would only be valid is if she turned from {evangelical, religious} to {nihilistic and atheistic}, complete opposites, and equally as bad. Which would then validate your analogy of {government loving, CIA agent} to {anarchist who blows up buildings}, complete opposites, yet equally as bad. Do you follow? This is pure logic and undeniable.

What you are saying here is not how one would interpret an analogy.

The analogy was,, -- you have only put on an opposite set of clothes, looks totally different, but you have not changed,,, from the evengelical to the rejecting of the Christianity with no real differance between the two. Like the terrorist CIA agent killing foreigners in the name of Justice and Freedom,, who discovers he was not really doing anything for the good of the nation so becomes an anarchist robbing banks and blowing up buildings -- no change. Only the belief that one has changed, and now stands on the side of right.

I already knew that. My point was that jeg didn't turn to the complete opposite as you suggested. You completely misunderstood my point.

It may be hard for you to accept, geolaureate8, but, most likely, you have picked up your beliefs about religion without scrutiny,, and have accepted them without much question. -- exactly the thing you dislike about religion people.

You would like to think that wouldn't you. However, that's not the case. Many of my conclusions about religion have come from my own philosophical ponderances and I actually write my own philosophic essays containing my own thoughts on these matters.

As Krishnamurti said:

"There is no teacher, no pupil, there is no leader, there's no guru, there's no master, no savior. You yourself are the teacher, the pupil, the master, the guru, you are the leader. You are everything."

"One has to be light to oneself, and you cannot possibly depend on anyone. You cannot have light from another. It cannot be lit by whoever it is, by God or by saviors and Buddhas. It cannot be handed down to another. One has to be totally, completely, a light to oneself."

dedicate

27-11-2009, 11:22 AM

So, then my analogy is correct if there is no real change? And you are saying there was a change,, therefore the analogy is incorrect. Is that what you are saying? Then we can leave it at that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said, "So you don't like to be told what to do because you know what is best." And you responded, "No one has authority over my mind or my actions"

That was one of a few "test" statements. Subtley study what I said, and see I never asked to give authority over your mind to someone else. I remember, I was working and the supervisor said, "Do as you are told!" and I said, "If I decide to do as I'm told, then have I not decided to do as I tell myself to do?"-- Then there is the subtle teaching that even you do not have 'authority' over your actions. Testing, 1, 2 3,, testing.

-----------------------------------------

I'm not sure you fully understand Krishnamurti. He's talking about the end of the journey. I like Krisnamurti, and he does not waver from this point of view,, and I find his teachings correct. -- One does not need to make the journey, or need to search,, Truth is pathless. The end and the means are the same with Krishnamurti.

Krisnamurti is not rejecting religion. He's teaching the core of all religion. That's what I see. -- In truth,, the only way for there to be "No Teacher -- No Guru" is if there are teachers and gurus. Testing.

P.S. "You would like to think that wouldn't you. However, that's not the case. Many of my conclusions about religion have come from my own philosophical ponderances and I actually write my own philosophic essays containing my own thoughts on these matters."

It has nothing to do with what I would like to think. It is what I see. You saying it is not true, does not change what I see. You may believe you have come to certain conclusion without bias or prejudice,, but I don't believe it.

geolaureate8

27-11-2009, 11:52 AM

I said, "So you don't like to be told what to do because you know what is best." And you responded, "No one has authority over my mind or my actions"

That was one of a few "test" statements. Subtley study what I said, and see I never asked to give authority over your mind to someone else.

I never claimed that you did. That was my way of responding. You said that I don't like to be told what to do because I know what is best. But the point I was making, was that whether I know best or not, has no bearing on whether a person can have authority over my mind or actions. In this case, maybe Icke knows best, but I don't grant him authority over my mind or actions.

I'm not sure you fully understand Krishnamurti.

I would say the same for you, and I'll show you why.

Krisnamurti is not rejecting religion.

Yes he is. Last time I checked, a statement like "there is no master, no savior" would be considered anti-religious. He's even explicitly rejected religion:

"[Religions] have failed. Why? Because they are based on some belief, which has no value at all. On some dogma, fate. Do this, don't do that. That's what religion's about. [Religions being different paths] is ... nonsense. Path to what? Is it to God, to truth? As though fixed. God and truth, as stationary. Living can't be stationary." - Krishnamurti

He's teaching the core of all religion.

Um no, as I just demonstrated, he is teaching the antithesis of all religion.

The core of religion is this: Blindly believe in me based on no evidence, blind faith is a virtue, and if you require evidence for my existence, you can go to hell. Oh, and by the way, I watch you every second of your life, and constantly judge you. If you do something I don't like, you will burn. I'm your master, you're my slave. Obey me and my 700 specific commandments, outlined in this book.

In truth,, the only way for there to be "No Teacher -- No Guru" is if there are teachers and gurus. Testing.

Not really. His point is that no other person outside yourself, can act as a guru or teacher to you. Only you can be a teacher or guru to yourself. That's what he's saying.

.

dedicate

27-11-2009, 12:21 PM

Then how can I say, "I agree with Krisnamurti."?

You give a qoute,, "Religion has failed.",, and take it to mean Krishnamurti has rejected religion? We all fail, -- religion has failed, education has failed, govenment has failed, even the family has failed. Only means one can do without those things,, AND/OR one can find the good and do better with those things. Either way would be valid, from a valid point of view. But does not mean one has to be rejecting of those things.

Yes, even Krisnamurti teachings fail. As I can see here. Just another way for people to avoid responsiblity, avoid looking at things closely or working hard to carve out one's own salvation. -- Saying "Hey, I've already got it. No need to do anything or work at it."

Now, let's here the denials... about how hard you have worked and how far you know you have to go! You at 21!

P.S. I never said anything like, "The core of religion is this: Blindly believe in me based on no evidence, blind faith is a virtue, and if you require evidence for my existence, you can go to hell. Oh, and by the way, I watch you every second of your life, and constantly judge you. If you do something I don't like, you will burn. I'm your master, you're my slave. Obey me and my 700 specific commandments, outlined in this book.".. I said nothing like this.. WHERE? WHEN? DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THIS? so maybe you are brainwashed! to believe without question your view of what religion is.

Whenever someone says, "Religion" you immediately equate it with that!?!

geolaureate8

27-11-2009, 12:30 PM

You give a qoute,, "Religion has failed.",, and take it to mean Krishnamurti has rejected religion? We all fail, -- religion has failed, education has failed, govenment has failed, even the family has failed. Only means one can do without those things,, AND/OR one can find the good and do better with those things. Either way would be valid, from a valid point of view. But does not mean one has to be rejecting of those things.

Yes, he is rejecting religion. Not only has it failed, but it's also based on false premises to begin with (as he said specifically: "religion is based on some belief, which has no value at all."), so it can't be expected to succeed. That is what he said, if you read the whole quote.

"Your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid, and cruel life." - Krishnamurti

I don't think he can be anymore clear about his outright denial of religion.

Then how can I say, "I agree with Krisnamurti."? ...

Yes, even Krisnamurti teachings fail. As I can see here. Just another way for people to avoid responsiblity, avoid looking at things closely or working hard to carve out one's own salvation. -- Saying "Hey, I've already got it. No need to do anything or work at it."

Now, let's here the denials...

It would seem that his words are a contradiction, but Michael Tsarion clarifies this paradox. He says that people like himself can point you in the right direction or act as a guide, but he can't do the walking for you. So Krishnamurti's principles still apply. It's like they're cutting the puppet strings for you, and then you're on your own. Do you follow?

P.S. I never said anything like, "The core of religion is this: Blindly believe in me based on no evidence, blind faith is a virtue, and if you require evidence for my existence, you can go to hell. Oh, and by the way, I watch you every second of your life, and constantly judge you. If you do something I don't like, you will burn. I'm your master, you're my slave. Obey me and my 700 specific commandments, outlined in this book.".. I said nothing like this.. WHERE? WHEN? DID I SAY THIS? so maybe you are brainwashed! to believe without question your view of what religion is.

Lol. Why do you keep saying that? Everytime I make a statement, you claim that I said you said it. No, I never claimed that you said those words. Read more carefully.

Anyways, you made a very asinine statement here "so maybe you are brainwashed! to believe without question your view of what religion is."

This doesn't even make sense. I've been brainwashed to believe what my view of religion is? Sorry, but opinions come from the person themselves. If they are brainwashed to believe something (i.e. 911 official story is true), that's not an opinion. That's just a false belief. I have come to my own conclusions about religion with my own mind and contemplative thought. You are denying that I go through the process of contemplative thought, which only I can know if I do or not.

.

dedicate

27-11-2009, 01:19 PM

I believe we are discussing religion,, and have been for 7 or 8 posts.-- so I would think you have some sort of understanding about what it is I'm discussing and how I'm using the word? No?.. . So, for you to just interject in the middle of a conversaition,, "Religion is Control! Religon teaches one to 'Blindly believe in me based on no evidence, blind faith is a virtue, and if you require evidence for my existence, you can go to hell. Oh, and by the way, I watch you every second of your life, and constantly judge you. If you do something I don't like, you will burn. I'm your master, you're my slave. Obey me and my 700 specific commandments, outlined in this book:'" -.

Makes me say, "Why are you bringing up that dead horse? That's not what I'm talking about."..

Anyway.. Good luck.. or should I say, "God luck" to ya. Stick around the D.I. forum. Lots of good minds here who know more about J.K. than I do. See you around. I hope to see other posts by you. Your an intelligent person. Nice to talk to you.

deusvult

28-11-2009, 12:22 AM

tannah

28-11-2009, 12:49 AM

I am a Roman Catholic. I wasn't brought up in a

religious family. God spoke to me and I listened.

The more I learn and understand, the more at peace within myself I feel.

God has helped me to structure my life and to live with a purpose. I think we

all want to belong to something or at least feel like we have purpose in this

life. God comforts me in every way, both in body and soul.

The devil strains every nerve to secure the souls which belong to Christ. We

should not grudge our toil in wresting them from Satan and giving them back

to God

Hey you sound just like a Christian.:) Which is ironic, since Christians don't seem to think Catholics are one of them.

You see I can't envisage a Satan that lives to take people away from Christ. It would become a boring job after a few thousand years, and Satan must be surfing porn on PCs by now, out of total boredom of his role.

It would be nice if we put down these labels, and began understanding what man is capable of. Man is capable of the most unbelievable evil, and the most eye watering good. Nothing is stopping man except his own short-sightedness and attachments to need and ambition and pride. But reality is about a Creator, not about an accidental universe. And , as such, reality will prevail, and man will learn it....'allelujah.:)

deusvult

28-11-2009, 01:13 AM

Hey you sound just like a Christian.:) Which is ironic, since Christians don't seem to think Catholics are one of them.

You see I can't envisage a Satan that lives to take people away from Christ. It would become a boring job after a few thousand years, and Satan must be surfing porn on PCs by now, out of total boredom of his role.

It would be nice if we put down these labels, and began understanding what man is capable of. Man is capable of the most unbelievable evil, and the most eye watering good. Nothing is stopping man except his own short-sightedness and attachments to need and ambition and pride. But reality is about a Creator, not about an accidental universe. And , as such, reality will prevail, and man will learn it....'allelujah.:)

I am a Catholic.:)

Go forth in peace, for you have followed the good road.

dedicate

28-11-2009, 01:30 AM

Catholicism is wonderful. 1500 years of rich spiritual tradition there. All those things that modern man with his modern life tends not to have time for,, they have preserved for the world.

People like to drag them through the mud, but I believe we will some day find the Catholic Church was not such the Satan everybody, even the protestant and the what-ever-Christian, believes.

P.S. Like your Icon deusvult

lightgiver

28-11-2009, 02:30 AM

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 02:46 AM

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7554/communismatheismatheist.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/communismatheismatheist.jpg/)

http://th01.deviantart.com/fs10/300W/i/2006/123/e/3/Religion_by_StarDragon77.jpg

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/11/1/633927101451770490-thebible.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/2943908357_6b6c522e0a.jpg

lightgiver

28-11-2009, 02:55 AM

http://th01.deviantart.com/fs10/300W/i/2006/123/e/3/Religion_by_StarDragon77.jpg

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/11/1/633927101451770490-thebible.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/2943908357_6b6c522e0a.jpg

You have to find out who edited the bible and the what the term religion means.

I am into no extreme behaviour,if you get a few extremists in a religion,that does not mean the religion is to blame,religion is just a label,what matters is the actions behind the label :)

A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.[1] Religion is commonly identified by the practitioner's prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things, and is often interwoven with society and politics. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.

Nothing wrong with that,Freedom means Freedom.:)

as long as it is not being forced upon anyone.(like the commies like to do)

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 03:24 AM

You have to find out who edited the bible and the what the term religion means.

I already have.

I am into no extreme behaviour,if you get a few extremists in a religion,that does not mean the religion is to blame,religion is just a label,what matters is the actions behind the label :)

No, religion is what you defined below. I never said you were an extremist, and I find that irrelevant. Religion is to blame for being a violent, anti-philosophical doctrine, and the person is to blame for falling for it.

A religion is a system of human thought

Haha, thought? No. Indoctrination and blind belief is more appropriate. And as you can see, it says "system." That's another word for PRISON. That's why David Icke calls them prison religions.

which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.[1]

Which can be translated to: "dictates how you live." Religion requires that you follow it's code of conduct and actions, and restricts the person from doing anything outside the confines of the belief system.

Religion is commonly identified by the practitioner's prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things, and is often interwoven with society and politics. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature)

Which it needs to stay out of. Religion is utterly and entirely wrong about the Cosmos; and human nature as well.

which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle.

Translation: spiritual dictatorship

Nothing wrong with that,Freedom means Freedom.:)

Everything is wrong with it, and it is antithetical to Freedom.

.

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 03:24 AM

By the way, you make the distinction between the religious and religious extremist, yet you don't give the same treatment to secularism. Secularism actually doesn't even apply, because there is no doctrine. Any evil or violent acts (you point out communist dictatorships), have nothing to do with secularism. There's no secular doctrine that commands people to commit genocide. Religion DOES have doctrine that commands people to commit genocide.

In other words, you got it all backwards.

adbasque

28-11-2009, 08:11 AM

Religion DOES have doctrine that commands people to commit genocide.

Where exactly? Show it to us in all three religions Thanks :)

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 09:15 AM

Where exactly? Show it to us in all three religions Thanks :)

Talmud:

“Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)

Bible:

"You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites – as Yahweh your God commanded you." Deuteronomy 20.17

Quran:

"Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment." --4:56

.

kanz

28-11-2009, 10:12 AM

kanz,
Where are you, and what are you doing with the data you are collecting here?

im here ,this is just personally for my self. the reason im not posting is i cant answer my own question. im here to learn not comment.

however does seam like this thread is about to head off the tracts. i only wanted people to explain why later in life they chose religion.

phildee3

28-11-2009, 10:24 AM

phildee3

28-11-2009, 10:29 AM

im here ,this is just personally for my self. the reason im not posting is i cant answer my own question. im here to learn not comment.

however does seam like this thread is about to head off the tracts. i only wanted people to explain why later in life they chose religion.

Well, this is a discussion forum, and you should expect it to go off the tracks if you don't enter into the discussion.
Why do you want to know why people adopt religious practices later in life?
What have you learned from the concise answers that some (like myself) have given (post no.18)?

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 10:36 AM

That's two religions, Judaism and Islam.
What about Christianity?

Oh, so the Bible is no longer a Christian doctrine? Please enlighten me as to what the new book of Christianity is. If you concede that the Bible is a Christian book, then I covered all three religions. If you are making an asinine implication that the New Testament is the only Christian book, I can find plenty of violent verses in there too.

.

adbasque

28-11-2009, 10:40 AM

Talmud:

“Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)

Bible:

"You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites – as Yahweh your God commanded you." Deuteronomy 20.17

Quran:

"Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment." --4:56

.

First get your facts together mate, Talmud were written by 70 rabis under the influence of the Babylonian rulers.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion none whatsoever.

What you quoted from the Qu'ran has nothing to do with genocides none whatsoever if you took the time to understand it the why and to whom it was destined then perhaps you'll understand more about religion :)

I asked you a specific question where does it say anything about "GENOCIDES" you quote me something totally different.

Answer the question please if you don't mind or leave it out :)

If you don't answer the question I won't bother replying.
Find me somewhere in any of the 3 religions where it says anything about committing genocides :) Take your time :)

Thanks

phildee3

28-11-2009, 10:52 AM

Oh, so the Bible is no longer a Christian doctrine? Please enlighten me as to what the new book of Christianity is. If you concede that the Bible is a Christian book, then I covered all three religions. If you are making an asinine implication that the New Testament is the only Christian book, I can find plenty of violent verses in there too.

The Bible is a collection of books, one of which is Deuteronomy - which was written long before Christianity began.

In the case of Christianity, the book is a posteriori to the religion, not a priori.
(Jesus sent the Apostles out with "no scrip" - Mark ch.6 et al)
Still, I would be interested to see any texts written, after the founding of Christianity, which supports any violent acts by Christians.

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 11:04 AM

First get your facts together mate, Talmud were written by 70 rabis under the influence of the Babylonian rulers.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion none whatsoever.

Talmud has nothing to do with religion? Oh really?

"[The Talmud is] a central text of mainstream Judaism" - Wikipidia

What you quoted from the Qu'ran has nothing to do with genocides none whatsoever if you took the time to understand it the why and to whom it was destined then perhaps you'll understand more about religion :)

You are focusing too much on semantics. My point is that religious texts either talk about God exterminating masses of people, God commanding others to kill, etc. The whole point is that religious texts are violent and condone violence. You're deliberately picking on semantics to make it seem like religious is peaceful, when you know damn well that it's brutally violent.

You say that I don't understand enough about religion? I was religious for 17 years. And ironically, I understand religion better now, than when I was religious.

I asked you a specific question where does it say anything about "GENOCIDES" you quote me something totally different.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people defined by their nationality, or by their ethnic, cultural, or religious background." - Answers.com

Close enough. Semantics won't save you, sorry. Let me also note, that the word "genocide" wasn't invented til the 1900's, so if you're asking me to find that word, you're being unrealistic.

If you don't answer the question I won't bother replying.
Find me somewhere in any of the 3 religions where it says anything about committing genocides :) Take your time :)

"So the LORD smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chronicles 14:12

There you have it. God murdered 1,000,000 Africans, "a deliberate destruction of a group of people defined by their ethnic and cultural backgrounds."

Given all this, please tell me why religion is good, if it's so violent and brutal?

.

kanz

28-11-2009, 12:14 PM

Well, this is a discussion forum, and you should expect it to go off the tracks if you don't enter into the discussion.
Why do you want to know why people adopt religious practices later in life?
What have you learned from the concise answers that some (like myself) have given (post no.18)?
being honest i just want know why people do what they do , what have i learned? well i havent quite figured that out yet, but im thankful for evertone that has answered. as soon as i feel i can answer that question ill get back to you.

adbasque

28-11-2009, 03:14 PM

Talmud has nothing to do with religion? Oh really?

"[The Talmud is] a central text of mainstream Judaism" - Wikipidia

Please, try and stay within the debate, it has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

God's religion, what men did with it has nothing to do with it
Quoting me wikipedia is not a proof of anything, I told you where the Tlmud originated from now it's up to you to take what you want out of it.

You are focusing too much on semantics. My point is that religious texts either talk about God exterminating masses of people, God commanding others to kill, etc. The whole point is that religious texts are violent and condone violence. You're deliberately picking on semantics to make it seem like religious is peaceful, when you know damn well that it's brutally violent.

You said it, I know damn well it's peaceful, what men did with it, and how they overturned it is what YOU call religion, that's not what I call religion :)
I hope that's clear now.
You say that I don't understand enough about religion? I was religious for 17 years. And ironically, I understand religion better now, than when I was religious.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people defined by their nationality, or by their ethnic, cultural, or religious background." - Answers.com

Again can you give something out of your head and your own knowledge or everything has to be copy paste?

Close enough. Semantics won't save you, sorry. Let me also note, that the word "genocide" wasn't invented til the 1900's, so if you're asking me to find that word, you're being unrealistic.

Ok show me where in the religion it says mass kill, destroy masses, any word you want to pick, just find me where it says it :)

"So the LORD smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chronicles 14:12

There you have it. God murdered 1,000,000 Africans, "a deliberate destruction of a group of people defined by their ethnic and cultural backgrounds."

Given all this, please tell me why religion is good, if it's so violent and brutal?

.

Did he? And you were there when God destroyed 1,000 000 Africans?
Or another website told you that?

How did he exactly murder 1000 000 of his people that he created?
Can you show me how did he do that?
You see it violent and brutal because some people want you to see it that way, because those people who kill and murder in it's name so you come along and think humm religion is S**** but the real culprit walks free.

But then now you're ego will take over I am sure, even if you see some sense init you won't admit it.

In Any case, believe what you want, you're free mate :)

Take care

lightgiver

28-11-2009, 06:42 PM

I already have.

.

It appears you nave not.

No, religion is what you defined below. I never said you were an extremist, and I find that irrelevant. Religion is to blame for being a violent, anti-philosophical doctrine, and the person is to blame for falling for it.

.

Religion is not to blame people are,no true religion advocates killing,only silly deluded beings do that.

How can labels be violent,when did the label religion ever kill anyone,religion as no conscience,it is just a label like everything in the desire realm.

You need to work on your attachments and learn to recognise them.

Haha, thought? No. Indoctrination and blind belief is more appropriate. And as you can see, it says "system." That's another word for PRISON. That's why David Icke calls them prison religions.

.

You need to find out where D icke got all his info from,especially on the chakras and like,maybe D Icke is a New age guru,you appear to believe everything he says.

Which can be translated to: "dictates how you live." Religion requires that you follow it's code of conduct and actions, and restricts the person from doing anything outside the confines of the belief system.

Which it needs to stay out of. Religion is utterly and entirely wrong about the Cosmos; and human nature as well.

Translation: spiritual dictatorship

Everything is wrong with it, and it is antithetical to Freedom.

.

telling people what they should and should not be doing is dictatorship sunshine.

and you appear to be on that path.:)

Oh BTW did you know M Tsarion is a Rosicrucian. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91373

Religion DOES have doctrine that commands people to commit genocide.

In other words, you got it all backwards. :confused: Really.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1756/communismbyrapierwitt2.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/i/communismbyrapierwitt2.jpg/)

Mao Zedong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

Karl Marx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pol Pot - WikipÃ©dia

Henry Kissinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could go on,

all fanatical extremists.

What a lovely bunch of atheists.:eek:

You stupid boy - YouTube

geolaureate8

28-11-2009, 11:31 PM

Please, try and stay within the debate, it has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

Fine, you win. The Talmud is not a religious Judaic text.

God's religion, what men did with it has nothing to do with it

If you scrap the Bible, the Quran, etc. as man made abomination to God's religion, then what are you left with? NOTHING. NO RELIGION AT ALL. Secularism is what you're left with, is that what you're implying is "God's Religion"?

You said it, I know damn well it's peaceful, what men did with it, and how they overturned it is what YOU call religion, that's not what I call religion :)

What did man do with it? There is nothing man can do to make religion better or worse. It's inherently false, bottom line. It is a PRISON of the MIND, it is ANTITHETICAL to FREE THOUGHT, and therefore, it is philosophically false. It is against rational inquiry and frowns upon understanding the cosmos. Look what they did to Galileo. (Please don't preach about the evil Catholic church, I don't want to hear it. It's no better than Christianity, sorry.)

Again can you give something out of your head and your own knowledge or everything has to be copy paste?

Are you retarded, or do you just spout nonsense for the hell of it? When providing a definition of a word, you're supposed to go to a dictionary to define it properly, otherwise I can just start defining words how I want. Watch. Religion: a heaping pile of dog shit. Do you like that better? This time I didn't copy and paste a dictionary definition.

Ok show me where in the religion it says mass kill, destroy masses, any word you want to pick, just find me where it says it :)

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." - Genesis 7:4

There you have it. A global genocide performed by Yahweh himself.

Did he? And you were there when God destroyed 1,000 000 Africans?
Or another website told you that?

I don't believe in Yahweh, so I don't believe it happened. However, Christians who believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, believe that he exists and did everything said in the Bible. Whether he exists or not is besides the point. The point is that religious doctrine, that is supposed to be taken as fact, is indeed very violent.

And it has nothing to do with a website who told me that. It's Bible verse. I know what you're trying to do and it's not working. You are trying to make it look like I can't think for myself and get my opinions from a website. This is very dishonest on your part because no where have I used a website to express my views. I quote the Bible to demonstrate directly that it's violent, and I quoted Answers.com for a definition, which is not contradictory to free thought.

How did he exactly murder 1000 000 of his people that he created?
Can you show me how did he do that?

I don't believe exists, of course I don't believe he actually did that. That is what religious texts tell us he did, and that is what I am opposing.

You see it violent and brutal because some people want you to see it that way, because those people who kill and murder in it's name so you come along and think humm religion is S**** but the real culprit walks free.

I don't give a goddamn about people who kill in the name of religion. I don't don't give a fuck if every religious person was Mother Theresa. That is called an appeal to consequences fallacy. I'm bashing religion itself, not it's effects. Btw, Mother Theresa admitted to being an Atheist before she died.

In Any case, believe what you want, you're free mate :)

I'm a free thinker, I don't have beLIEfs.

.

geolaureate8

29-11-2009, 12:05 AM

Religion is not to blame people are,no true religion advocates killing,only silly deluded beings do that.

No true religion advocates killing? Well, that rules out any hopes of Judeo-Christian religions being true. They all advocate killing. If you really don't believe that, look no further:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

How can labels be violent,when did the label religion ever kill anyone,religion as no conscience,it is just a label like everything in the desire realm.

It's not a label. It's a set of false beliefs that it's adherents are required to follow and obey.

You need to work on your attachments and learn to recognise them.

Tell that to religious people who are attached to invisible space daddies, not me.

You need to find out where D icke got all his info from,especially on the chakras and like,maybe D Icke is a New age guru,

Icke is not a New Age guru. If you read his books, you'd know that. He continually condemns the New Age in his writings and lectures.

David Icke: "Many New Agers condemn me for being "too negative" (saying what is really happening) and for exposing the "spiritual" charlatans and the Illuminati manipulation of the New Age mentality. The reason I can unite such apparently opposing groups is that they all have one thing in common. They each have a dogma to sell or defend. As I am challenging all dogmas, impositions, and suppression, I can bring them together as one indignant voice. They are opposames." - Children of the Matrix

you appear to believe everything he says.

When I said that he calls religion prisons of the mind, I'm not believing him, I'm agreeing with him. Two different things. I don't need anyone to tell me that religion is bad.

telling people what they should and should not be doing is dictatorship sunshine.

and you appear to be on that path.:)

Where did I tell anyone what to do? All I'm doing is trying to show people that religion enslaves your mind. If anything, I'm freeing minds.

Oh BTW did you know M Tsarion is a Rosicrucian. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91373

Oh, btw, did you know I don't give a shit what his affiliations are. His works are brilliant. An ad hominem attack against him doesn't affect the quality and validity of his works. Manly Hall is a Freemason, and his works are excellent.

:confused: Really.

Yes really.

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants (non-believers) of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

I could go on,

all fanatical extremists.

What a lovely bunch of atheists.:eek:

You could go on, and keep spouting a bunch of bullshit. Show me ONE SECULAR DOCTRINE ADVOCATING VIOLENCE. NONE, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO DOCTRINES IN SECULARISM. That's the point. Secularism is void of all belief systems and doctrines. You, trying to attach Communism and Fascism to secularism is ridiculous and asinine. That's like me saying that Nazism is a core tenet of Christianity because Hitler was a Christian.

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca the Younger (Philosopher)

.

lightgiver

29-11-2009, 12:16 AM

I could not care less who follows what

whatever ism or schism.

Labels do not kill and oppress, people do that who hide behind labels .

FACT.

Bye have a nice life :)

geolaureate8

29-11-2009, 12:25 AM

I could not care less who follows what

whatever ism or schism.

Labels do not kill and oppress, people do that who hide behind labels .

FACT.

Labels don't kill, however, they do oppress people.

"If you can put a name to what you believe, you have built a wall around your mind. It doesn't matter what "ism" or "ianity" it may be. Once you can give it a name you are closing the door on infinity where everything just is and we all just are. There are no names for infinite knowledge. It encompasses all that is, and once we succumb to an "ism" we disconnect from all that is." - David Icke

Bye have a nice life :)

Yeah, I will have a nice life, being free from mind prisons.

.

lightgiver

29-11-2009, 12:29 AM

Labels don't kill, however, they do oppress people.

"If you can put a name to what you believe, you have built a wall around your mind. It doesn't matter what "ism" or "ianity" it may be. Once you can give it a name you are closing the door on infinity where everything just is and we all just are. There are no names for infinite knowledge. It encompasses all that is, and once we succumb to an "ism" we disconnect from all that is." - David Icke

Yeah, I will have a nice life, being free from mind prisons.

.

Sorry I will have to reply,labels do not have a conscious.

I do not follow D icke so keep repeating what he says will have no effect.

You are in a prison of your own device,when you grow up you will come to realise.

geolaureate8

29-11-2009, 12:41 AM

Sorry I will have to reply,labels do not have a conscious.

Non sequitur fallacy. Oppression, therefore conscious. Oppress: to put down; subdue or suppress. - Dictionary.com. Is a prison conscious because it suppresses people?

I do not follow D icke so keep repeating what he says will have no effect.

The words are true whether you like him or not.

You are in a prison of your own device.

Bare assertion. What prison do you speak of? I am free from all prisons of the mind. I think you need to practice what you preach and follow that Buddha quote: "Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." ~ Buddha

If you understood what he was saying, surely you wouldn't be sticking up for religious belief systems that require BLIND BELIEF without evidence.

.

lightgiver

29-11-2009, 12:49 AM

Non sequitur fallacy. Oppression, therefore conscious. Oppress: to put down; subdue or suppress. - Dictionary.com. Is a prison conscious because it suppresses people?

The words are true whether you like him or not.

Bare assertion. What prison do you speak of? I am free from all prisons of the mind. I think you need to practice what you preach and follow that Buddha quote: "Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." ~ Buddha

If you understood what he was saying, surely you wouldn't be sticking up for religious belief systems that require BLIND BELIEF without evidence.

.

True freedom is allowing people to practise and live their life how they want ,obviously within reason.

Like I say you are born into a prison of you own device.

old age sickness and death, which no one escapes.:)

do you think I have not looked into anything :confused:

you sound to me like you are suppressing yourself.

Everything Comes From the Mind

Buddhism can be understood on many different levels. People who actualize the Buddhist path do so gradually. Just as you pass slowly through school and university, graduating from one year to the next, so do Buddhist practitioners proceed step by step along the path to enlightenment. In Buddhism, however, we’re talking about different levels of mind; here, higher and lower refer to spiritual progress.

In the West, there’s a tendency to consider Buddhism as a religion in the Western sense of the term. This is a misconception. Buddhism is completely open; we can talk about anything. Buddhism has its doctrine and philosophy, but it also encourages scientific experimentation, both inner and outer. Don’t think of Buddhism as some kind of narrow, closed-minded belief system. It isn’t. Buddhist doctrine is not an historical fabrication derived through imagination and mental speculation, but an accurate psychological explanation of the actual nature of the mind.

When you look at the outside world you have a very strong impression of its substantiality. You probably don’t realize that that strong impression is merely your own mind’s interpretation of what it sees. You think that the strong, solid reality really exists outside, and perhaps, when you look within, you feel empty. This is also a misconception: the strong impression that the world appears to truly exist outside of you is actually projected by your own mind. Everything you experience—feelings, sensations, shapes and colours—comes from your mind.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=115&chid=167

geolaureate8

29-11-2009, 12:56 AM

True freedom is allowing people to practise and live their life how they want ,obviously within reason.

I'm not denying people the right to do as they want. I'm merely engaging in debate, which is something that should be encouraged.

Like I say you are born into a prison of you own device.

You keep asserting this without explanation or reason. Therefore, this statement has no merit.

do you think I have not looked into anything :confused:

Knowledge is no replacement for clear, rational thinking and philosophic inquiry. You could have the knowledge of a library, yet be entirely ignorant with a mind that doesn't have sharp thinking abilities.

you sound to me like you are suppressing yourself.

Suppressing myself with what? I don't follow any belief systems, nor do I pretend that a religion is not a belief system (like many Christians do. "I'm not religious, I have a personal relationship with Jesus" LOL). If you think I'm suppressing myself by shunning religion, you are sadly mistaken. I don't dismiss that there is some value to be found in religious texts, what I do dismiss is belief systems that block out free thought.

In the West, there’s a tendency to consider Buddhism as a religion in the Western sense of the term. This is a misconception. Buddhism is completely open; we can talk about anything. Buddhism has its doctrine and philosophy, but it also encourages scientific experimentation, both inner and outer. Don’t think of Buddhism as some kind of narrow, closed-minded belief system. It isn’t. Buddhist doctrine is not an historical fabrication derived through imagination and mental speculation, but an accurate psychological explanation of the actual nature of the mind.

When did I ever condemn Buddhism or call it a religion? I was clearly agreeing with the wise Buddha quote. It is my understanding that Buddha was a wise philosopher who was against religious thought, yet some of his followers made a religion out of him. I actually consider Buddhism to be more of a philosophical school of thought rather than religion. When I say the word religion, I am generally singling out the Big 3.

When you look at the outside world you have a very strong impression of its substantiality. You probably don’t realize that that strong impression is merely your own mind’s interpretation of what it sees. You think that the strong, solid reality really exists outside, and perhaps, when you look within, you feel empty. This is also a misconception: the strong impression that the world appears to truly exist outside of you is actually projected by your own mind. Everything you experience—feelings, sensations, shapes and colours—comes from your mind.

I'm already aware of that.

.

lightgiver

29-11-2009, 12:58 AM

.[/COLOR]

So do I :)

ask yourself where is the I.

When you look at the outside world you have a very strong impression of its substantiality. You probably don’t realize that that strong impression is merely your own mind’s interpretation of what it sees. You think that the strong, solid reality really exists outside, and perhaps, when you look within, you feel empty. This is also a misconception: the strong impression that the world appears to truly exist outside of you is actually projected by your own mind. Everything you experience—feelings, sensations, shapes and colours—comes from your mind.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=115&chid=167

Try it,try and find a independent existing geolaureate8.

adbasque

29-11-2009, 02:56 PM

Fine, you win. The Talmud is not a religious Judaic text.

Yes but before that you were positive that it was part of the Judaic religion :)

If you scrap the Bible, the Quran, etc. as man made abomination to God's religion, then what are you left with? NOTHING. NO RELIGION AT ALL. Secularism is what you're left with, is that what you're implying is "God's Religion"?

You don't seem to get the concept of what is religion and what isn't sorry
I suggest you check out and learn more about religion, you will be surprised what you can find and how wrong you are.

What did man do with it? There is nothing man can do to make religion better or worse. It's inherently false, bottom line. It is a PRISON of the MIND, it is ANTITHETICAL to FREE THOUGHT, and therefore, it is philosophically false. It is against rational inquiry and frowns upon understanding the cosmos. Look what they did to Galileo. (Please don't preach about the evil Catholic church, I don't want to hear it. It's no better than Christianity, sorry.)

It's rather amazing how little you really know about religion and it's concept, I am not being funny, but the more you talk about it the more you confirm that you haven't got a clue what is religion and how it came about.

You keep contradicting yourself, you don't believe in it that doesn't make it so.
You don't believe in it only you not others, you call yourself free thinking there's no such thing as a free thinker, we are all free thinkers or we are not.

I don't have the time to go into more details to why you're not a free thinker
We come to this life, we all go by a "belief System" one way or another, think about it, and think real hard if you call yourself a free thinker, that's the only piece of advice I can give you.

Are you retarded, or do you just spout nonsense for the hell of it? When providing a definition of a word, you're supposed to go to a dictionary to define it properly, otherwise I can just start defining words how I want. Watch. Religion: a heaping pile of dog shit. Do you like that better? This time I didn't copy and paste a dictionary definition.

No I am not retarded, I don't remember asking you to give me a definition of anything, I asked you to provide a text where it incites genocides, am I retarded, it seem to me that the shoe is in the other foot.

Calling me retarded is not going to make your case or argument any better :)

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." - Genesis 7:4

There you have it. A global genocide performed by Yahweh himself.

And that's why we are still here talking to each other if he had performed that?
Before you quote something why don't you try and understand it take the time to find out more about it instead of taking it literally.

I don't believe in Yahweh, so I don't believe it happened. However, Christians who believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, believe that he exists and did everything said in the Bible. Whether he exists or not is besides the point. The point is that religious doctrine, that is supposed to be taken as fact, is indeed very violent.

Two things, You don't believe in Yahweh and God or whatever, is your business, that doesn't mean the ones who believe in him are wrong, you can't prove to them he doesn't exist otherwise you would've done so already, so you're giving your opinion not stating any facts, you opinion is yours and yours alone.
Some might share it others will think otherwise simple as that.

And it has nothing to do with a website who told me that. It's Bible verse. I know what you're trying to do and it's not working. You are trying to make it look like I can't think for myself and get my opinions from a website. This is very dishonest on your part because no where have I used a website to express my views. I quote the Bible to demonstrate directly that it's violent, and I quoted Answers.com for a definition, which is not contradictory to free thought.

It is not dishonest from my part, because on this forum, you get many like that, they make their arguments quoting from some websites, as I said before at the beginning of our conversation, I did ask a specific question I was expecting a specific answer and you went on pasting the definition of the "Word" it is not what I asked was it?
I don't believe I was dishonest I just wanted you to tell me how you came to that conclusion.

I don't believe exists, of course I don't believe he actually did that. That is what religious texts tell us he did, and that is what I am opposing.

Again another contradiction mate, on one hand you say it's violent blah blah, and on the other you don't believe he exist at all, so if he doesn't exist as you're saying why are you worried about it then? Why are you condemning somebody or something that doesn't exist of being violent?

When I said what men do and did with religion you said it has nothing to do with men, etc.. which implies that GOD (Yahweh) is violent and a destroyer?

As I said before, I honestly don't believe you understand the whole concept of religion and it's origins, when I speak about religion I mean the 3 main religions.

You don't have the foggiest idea on what is religion.

I don't give a goddamn about people who kill in the name of religion. I don't don't give a fuck if every religious person was Mother Theresa. That is called an appeal to consequences fallacy. I'm bashing religion itself, not it's effects. Btw, Mother Theresa admitted to being an Atheist before she died.

Keep bashing religion, it's usually the case in a human nature we always tend to bash what we don't understand, as I said before what you think only applies to you not to everyone else, only people who think like you who would agree with you.

I don't care what mother Theresa says or the pope, I don't believe for others I believe for myself, if the entire planet decides to bash religion tomorrow, it doesn't mean anything to me, everyone is free to decide for him/herself
What you think or mother Theresa thinks is your business and yours alone.

Until you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that religion is what you think it is, then we can talk, but right now you haven't proved anything.
However I respect your views, can you do the same? :)

I'm a free thinker, I don't have beLIEfs.

You keep coming back to this "Free Thinker" business again, for you a free thinker has to agree with you and your views lol
No you think you're a free thinker, but deep down you know there's no such a thing, what you are is a non believer that's different.

It's like one who believes in Aliens and another who doesn't believe in them.
You keep telling this person that you're a free thinker simply because you don't share his belief ^^
Without knowing or even trying to find out why does he/she believe in them, you can clearly see that the person isn't a fool or maybe that's what you think of believers? who knows

In Any case, I don't think we should waste anymore time on this, we are two individuals with two different views and this debate isn't going anywhere.

The way I see it, is you're free to believe oh sorry (to think) in anyway you like, so can I what matters is we respect one another.

I have nothing more to say about this, as it's fruitless, we can end up with pages and pages of nonsense.

So go ahead and think that's what we humans do best, I think my way you do it yours end of a story :)

Peace & love

.[/QUOTE]

adbasque

29-11-2009, 02:57 PM

So do I :)

ask yourself where is the I.

When you look at the outside world you have a very strong impression of its substantiality. You probably don’t realize that that strong impression is merely your own mind’s interpretation of what it sees. You think that the strong, solid reality really exists outside, and perhaps, when you look within, you feel empty. This is also a misconception: the strong impression that the world appears to truly exist outside of you is actually projected by your own mind. Everything you experience—feelings, sensations, shapes and colours—comes from your mind.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=115&chid=167

Try it,try and find a independent existing geolaureate8.

Absolutely :)
Well said mate

trev1

29-11-2009, 03:09 PM

All religions are man-made and with the agenda to keep most
people within the box of our 5 sense level...... tptb use it as a
method to control and manipulatle people. It distroys spirituality. :mad:

I could go one forever on this .... Religion especially the catholic
church is a mind manipulation of the masses based on a fairytale. :mad:

deusvult

29-11-2009, 07:14 PM

amethyst

29-11-2009, 07:25 PM

[QUOTE=trev1;1058446330]All religions are man-made and with the agenda to keep most
people within the box of our 5 sense level...... tptb use it as a
method to control and manipulatle people. It distroys spirituality. :mad:

I could go one forever on this .... Religion especially the catholic
church is a mind manipulation of the masses based on a fairytale. :mad:[/QUOT

Millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is.

And what do you think the "Roman Catholic Church" is...in your own words?

BTW, that avatar you have....the pope sits in front of an inverted one

Christ was apparently crucified on a "wooden tree"....on two pieces of wood haphazardly nailed together as were other crucifixtion victims of that time....not what we know as a "cross"

phildee3

29-11-2009, 08:40 PM

Non sequitur fallacy. Oppression, therefore conscious. Oppress: to put down; subdue or suppress. - Dictionary.com. Is a prison conscious because it suppresses people?

A prison does not suppress people - the people who run it do.
Without them, what do you have?
A building that, if you can get into you can walk out of!

geolaureate8

30-11-2009, 06:26 AM

You don't seem to get the concept of what is religion and what isn't sorry
I suggest you check out and learn more about religion, you will be surprised what you can find and how wrong you are.

Equivocation fallacy. You can't make an argument by inserting your own arbitrary definition. And since you insist on doing so, please tell me how YOU define religion, because this whole "that's not religion, that's not religion" really is getting annoying.

It's rather amazing how little you really know about religion and it's concept, I am not being funny, but the more you talk about it the more you confirm that you haven't got a clue what is religion and how it came about.

You keep saying this, yet you fail to provide the "true" definition. Maybe you have no clue.

You keep contradicting yourself, you don't believe in it that doesn't make it so.

You've failed to show where I contradicted myself.

You don't believe in it only you not others,

And? Their belief doesn't make it true. I'm not making a positive claim.

you call yourself free thinking there's no such thing as a free thinker, we are all free thinkers or we are not.

Congratulations. You just made no sense whatsoever. You presented a false dichotomy of either: we're all free thinkers or there's no free thinkers.

I don't have the time to go into more details to why you're not a free thinker
We come to this life, we all go by a "belief System" one way or another, think about it, and think real hard if you call yourself a free thinker, that's the only piece of advice I can give you.

Belief systems are static and unchanging. People who don't have a belief system can actively pursue truth, even if it means abandoning old ideas you once thought were true.

No I am not retarded, I don't remember asking you to give me a definition of anything, I asked you to provide a text where it incites genocides, am I retarded, it seem to me that the shoe is in the other foot.

Calling me retarded is not going to make your case or argument any better :)

It was a rhetorical remark.

And that's why we are still here talking to each other if he had performed that?

So you concede that the Bible is lying? Great then, we agree.

Before you quote something why don't you try and understand it take the time to find out more about it instead of taking it literally.

Yeah, you're right. When the Bible said Yahweh destroyed every living creature from off the face of the earth, it was a metaphor for how angry he was. BULLSHIT.

Two things, You don't believe in Yahweh and God or whatever, is your business, that doesn't mean the ones who believe in him are wrong, you can't prove to them he doesn't exist otherwise you would've done so already, so you're giving your opinion not stating any facts, you opinion is yours and yours alone.
Some might share it others will think otherwise simple as that.

I'm surprised that you lack basic logical skills. You cannot prove non-existence. There's no way to prove negative claims. The person who makes a positive claim must provide the evidence to prove their positive claim. Do I have to prove to you that invisible, pink unicorns don't exist?

Again another contradiction mate, on one hand you say it's violent blah blah, and on the other you don't believe he exist at all, so if he doesn't exist as you're saying why are you worried about it then? Why are you condemning somebody or something that doesn't exist of being violent?

This clearly shows you are not capable of rational thought. You think you're being clever by pointing out a nonexistent contradiction. Sorry, but you fail. I'm not condemning Yahweh for being violent, as if I want him captured and punished. I'm condemning religion and it's followers for worshiping a psychopathic murderer worse than Hitler. Would it be wrong to criticize Draco from Harry Potter, simply because he doesn't exist? Another thing I'm pointing out is that Christians believe in an all-loving God who commits the most horrific atrocities.

When I said what men do and did with religion you said it has nothing to do with men, etc.. which implies that GOD (Yahweh) is violent and a destroyer?

It does not imply God is violent. It implies the beliefs and dogma is violent.

You don't have the foggiest idea on what is religion.

I do. You obviously don't considering you've failed to provide what you think is the "true" definition.

Keep bashing religion, it's usually the case in a human nature we always tend to bash what we don't understand, as I said before what you think only applies to you not to everyone else, only people who think like you who would agree with you.

The wise would agree with me. I understand religion, I was religious for 17 years, and I know what it is I am criticizing.

Until you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that religion is what you think it is, then we can talk, but right now you haven't proved anything.
However I respect your views, can you do the same? :)

Religion is not about what I think it is, it is a word defined by the dictionary. People can equivocate and say religion is a relationship with Jesus or God, or some bullshit, but it doesn't make it true.

You keep coming back to this "Free Thinker" business again, for you a free thinker has to agree with you and your views lol
No you think you're a free thinker, but deep down you know there's no such a thing, what you are is a non believer that's different.

It's like one who believes in Aliens and another who doesn't believe in them.
You keep telling this person that you're a free thinker simply because you don't share his belief ^^
Without knowing or even trying to find out why does he/she believe in them, you can clearly see that the person isn't a fool or maybe that's what you think of believers? who knows

No, not at all. Being a free thinker means that your mind is not trapped by the belief. A belief system will say "Jesus rose from the dead," and that belief is not debatable and there's nothing you can do to change a person's mind if they believe that. A free thinker doesn't enslave their mind to an unchanging belief, especially an irrational, false belief.

Do you understand the difference. I'm not defining "lack of belief" as being a free thinker. I'm defining it as someone who's mind is free from concrete beliefs, unchangable beliefs.

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