Pentagon Debris

[gribz]

At risk of taking over the Shanksville thread I thought we start another.

The following is a reply from tabea blumenschein to me which I stated there was one piece of small metal at the Pentagon.

"One small piece of metal ...?"

Let's look at some evidence, shall we? (Links to photos of plane wreckage at end of post)

Mark Roberts took the time to go through some of the many eyewitness accounts of the Pentagon crash. Here is a summery of his findings:

Quote:
104 directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact.

26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet.

39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner.

2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size.

7 said it was a Boeing 757.

8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief.

2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport.

4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon.

10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole).

16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit.

42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts.


2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats.

15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel.

3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged.

3 took photographs of the aftermath.

Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings."

And of course,

0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon.

0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away.
Mr. Roberts also wants to know why truthers don't contact any of the over 8,000 people who responded to the Pentagon attack:


Quote:
Conspiracists are afraid to have their fantasies destroyed, so they scrupulously avoid contacting the hundreds of Pentagon 9/11 first responders and the over 8,000 people who worked on rescue, recovery, evidence collection, building stabilization, and security in the days after 9/11. These are just some of the organizations whose members worked on the scene:

Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue, American Airlines, American Red Cross, Arlington County Emergency Medical Services, Arlington County Fire Department, Arlington County Sheriff's Department, Arlington VA Police Department, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic staff, DeWitt Army Community Hospital staff, District of Columbia Fire & Rescue, DOD Honor Guard, Environmental Protection Agency Hazmat Teams, Fairfax County Fire & Rescue, FBI Evidence Recovery Teams, FBI Hazmat Teams, Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams, FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams Maryland Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, FEMA Emergency Response Team, Fort Myer Fire Department, Four U.S. Army Chaplains, Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit, Military District of Washington Engineers Search & Rescue Team, Montgomery County Fire & Rescue, U.S. National Guard units, National Naval Medical Center CCRF, National Transportation Safety Board, Pentagon Defense Protective Service, Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team, Pentagon Medical Staff, Rader Army Health Clinic Staff, SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams, Salvation Army Disaster Services, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County, Virginia Beach Fire Department, Virginia Department of Emergency Management, Virginia State Police


Wait. Don't tell me. They were all in on it.

Just like the over 1,500 people who assisted at the Shanksville crash site were all in on it.

Just like the hundreds of structural engineers at ground zero in the hours, days, and weeks after the attacks were all in on it.

Just like the thousands of ironworkers, the forensics experts, the police and fire departments of NYC, just like all these people.

All "in on it", right? Every last one of them, you say? Not tens of thousands of decent, caring human beings but tens of thousands of liars, dupes and shills willing to be complicit in one of the worst crimes ever committed.

Do you really believe that?

Given the collective expertise and combined experience of those mentioned, it's difficult to chalk up their silence to incompetence or simply being oblivious to the (so-called by you) "smoking gun evidence" that was literally right before their very eyes.

One of my biggest beefs with so-called "truthers" is their willingness to accuse absolutely anyone of anything, no matter how heinous, simply to prop up or defend their own paranoid delusions.

Lots of stuff on the Pentagon attacks at Mark's website, including photos of airplane wreckage:

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/911p...videncesummary

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/pentagonattackpage2

More plane wreckage photos and information at 9/11 myths:

http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html
__________________

[dave52]

http://website.lineone.net/~bosankoe/exit_hole_c.jpg

6 re-enforced walls breached...?

Fantasy.

[bsmurph83]

i think people forget the obvious:

if what the Gov said hit the Pentagon actually DID hit the Pentagon, then the 5 frames of footage they released showing something heading towards the building would have supported that idea. instead, the frames show the nose of something that looks like either a drone craft or missile.

more importantly though; the FBI confiscated film from nearby locations that would categorically have proven the Government's story as being true, but the Gov didn't release that film. why?

because it would have exposed the lie. that's why the FBI ducked in nice and quick before anyone could look at those security tapes.

this is incredibly incriminating behaviour. in admiralty, silence is fatal - and we ARE in admiralty, aren't we?

it's simple: if the story was true they would have shown us the footage that proved it. they didn't do that, which tells us...

also, there are witnesses and witnesses. some witnesses say they saw the passenger jet but others say it was definitely not a commercial jet. the witnesses don't trump the other evidence - not by a long way.

the available 5(?) frames of film and the UNavailable film that was confiscated right from the start speak quite persuasively.

also, a commercial jet cannot penetrate that amount of steel reinforced concrete. they're made of aluminium and crumble almost 'to dust' in an impact like that. it could never cut a perfect hole like that and then pass through the 18 feet (or whatever the number was) of steel reinforced concrete walls. not possible. fantasy land.

it also would have left a much bigger impact hole, and not a near-perfect geometric circle.

and maybe, i dunno.... some wing marks? or are there commercial jets out there flying without wings we're not meant to know about? (i think they're called missiles?)

and why did they cover up the remaining major engine (?) parts of the plane with a tarpaulin? something to hide? where was the rest of the debris from the plane? there's massive debris in a plane crash - where on earth did it go? they cleaned the lawn in unbelievable time using mostly bare sets of hands...

hmm... something wrong with this picture? nah, the government never lies...

this is the same power network that funded the opposing sides in the last world wars...

the same power network responsible for numerous and ADMITTED false flag "terror attacks" and other such false flag events...(some of them used, like 9/11 to start faux 'wars' and other such delightful activities)

on and on the list goes... *yawn*

some people just don't want to face the grotesquities of life:

the 'elite' are psychotic and view us as slaves. they will do anything - ANYTHING - to achieve a fully fledged global feudal system.

9/11 is a VERY SMALL PART OF THAT. 9/11 is actually not about 9/11.

it is about something far bigger and far more disturbing.

denial will not improve the situation, but some will rationalize themselves into a place where 'denial' is merely 'taking a rational view' and all other views are 'paranoid conspiracy theories'. this, of course, can only be achieved by being incredibly selective with the information one chooses to take cognizance of (think 'debunkers'). this may allow for the temporary avoidance of cognitive dissonance, but only so long as the papier mache damn walls can hold back the water that must inevitably burst through.

the tide is actually turning so fast, so to speak, that the debunker mind won't know what hit it when the damn finally bursts.

keep making your posts gribz, but don't waste your energy arguing, if you want my advice. post your material if it helps elucidate truth for others who also want it - whatever form it may take. maybe your energies could be directed towards spreading awareness of fundamentals that people have had kept from them. start a website, make pamphlets, stickers, flyers, etc, if it feels right.

then ya won't be wasting yer time trying to convince those minds that will not be convinced "even if you prove it!"

in fact, by NOT addressing those who would blindly argue on into eternity, you can eventually change their minds by changing the consensus reality.

like a challenge?

[changethetruth27]

i think people forget the obvious:

if what the Gov said hit the Pentagon actually DID hit the Pentagon, then the 5 frames of footage they released showing something heading towards the building would have supported that idea. instead, the frames show the nose of something that looks like either a drone craft or missile.

more importantly though; the FBI confiscated film from nearby locations that would categorically have proven the Government's story as being true, but the Gov didn't release that film. why?

because it would have exposed the lie. that's why the FBI ducked in nice and quick before anyone could look at those security tapes.

this is incredibly incriminating behaviour. in admiralty, silence is fatal - and we ARE in admiralty, aren't we?

it's simple: if the story was true they would have shown us the footage that proved it. they didn't do that, which tells us...

also, there are witnesses and witnesses. some witnesses say they saw the passenger jet but others say it was definitely not a commercial jet. the witnesses don't trump the other evidence - not by a long way.

the available 5(?) frames of film and the UNavailable film that was confiscated right from the start speak quite persuasively.

also, a commercial jet cannot penetrate that amount of steel reinforced concrete. they're made of aluminium and crumble almost 'to dust' in an impact like that. it could never cut a perfect hole like that and then pass through the 18 feet (or whatever the number was) of steel reinforced concrete walls. not possible. fantasy land.

it also would have left a much bigger impact hole, and not a near-perfect geometric circle.

and maybe, i dunno.... some wing marks? or are there commercial jets out there flying without wings we're not meant to know about? (i think they're called missiles?)

and why did they cover up the remaining major engine (?) parts of the plane with a tarpaulin? something to hide? where was the rest of the debris from the plane? there's massive debris in a plane crash - where on earth did it go? they cleaned the lawn in unbelievable time using mostly bare sets of hands...

hmm... something wrong with this picture? nah, the government never lies...

this is the same power network that funded the opposing sides in the last world wars...

the same power network responsible for numerous and ADMITTED false flag "terror attacks" and other such false flag events...(some of them used, like 9/11 to start faux 'wars' and other such delightful activities)

on and on the list goes... *yawn*

some people just don't want to face the grotesquities of life:

the 'elite' are psychotic and view us as slaves. they will do anything - ANYTHING - to achieve a fully fledged global feudal system.

9/11 is a VERY SMALL PART OF THAT. 9/11 is actually not about 9/11.

it is about something far bigger and far more disturbing.

denial will not improve the situation, but some will rationalize themselves into a place where 'denial' is merely 'taking a rational view' and all other views are 'paranoid conspiracy theories'. this, of course, can only be achieved by being incredibly selective with the information one chooses to take cognizance of (think 'debunkers'). this may allow for the temporary avoidance of cognitive dissonance, but only so long as the papier mache damn walls can hold back the water that must inevitably burst through.

the tide is actually turning so fast, so to speak, that the debunker mind won't know what hit it when the damn finally bursts.

keep making your posts gribz, but don't waste your energy arguing, if you want my advice. post your material if it helps elucidate truth for others who also want it - whatever form it may take. maybe your energies could be directed towards spreading awareness of fundamentals that people have had kept from them. start a website, make pamphlets, stickers, flyers, etc, if it feels right.

then ya won't be wasting yer time trying to convince those minds that will not be convinced "even if you prove it!"

in fact, by NOT addressing those who would blindly argue on into eternity, you can eventually change their minds by changing the consensus reality.

like a challenge?

well put. People make excuses, just because its safer to asume your government are hte nice guys even though they are out murdering people because they might be terrorist.

Question..Last major terror attack on the US? Oops, must be that army working. LOL

great post.

[strt]

Just out of curiosity, what different options you guys discuss here?
I would prefer few sentences answer max.

Thanks.

[dave52]

Just out of curiosity, what different options you guys discuss here?
I would prefer few sentences answer max.

Thanks.

What with regards to the Pentagon...?

[strt]

What with regards to the Pentagon...?

Yes, this thread, Pentagon only. What is the dilemma?

[dave52]

Question: What hit the Pentagon...?

Large Passenger Jet (Official story)
Smaller Jet
Military Jet
Drone
Missile
Nothing
Other.

[tabea_blumenschein]

i think people forget the obvious:

if what the Gov said hit the Pentagon actually DID hit the Pentagon, then the 5 frames of footage they released showing something heading towards the building would have supported that idea. instead, the frames show the nose of something that looks like either a drone craft or missile.

more importantly though; the FBI confiscated film from nearby locations that would categorically have proven the Government's story as being true, but the Gov didn't release that film. why?

because it would have exposed the lie. that's why the FBI ducked in nice and quick before anyone could look at those security tapes.

this is incredibly incriminating behaviour. in admiralty, silence is fatal - and we ARE in admiralty, aren't we?

it's simple: if the story was true they would have shown us the footage that proved it. they didn't do that, which tells us...



Video evidence is not needed to prove that a 757 hit the Pentagon. There is plenty of other evidence to clinch the case.

Besides, there's the classic truther "catch-22" ...

No video = it didn't happen.

Video = faked evidence.

Even if there were dozens of videos clearly showing the plane, you'd dismiss them as "CGI" or some such rubbish. You know you would.

also, there are witnesses and witnesses. some witnesses say they saw the passenger jet but others say it was definitely not a commercial jet. the witnesses don't trump the other evidence - not by a long way.

Sure, there are a few discrepancies between the stories of the eyewitnesses; that's not unexpected. You have to take into account where the witnesses were standing, how unobstructed their view was, for how many seconds they saw the plane, and so forth. There are a couple of witnesses among those whose testimonies are summarized in my previous post who described a "corporate jet" or "commuter plane". But too many people definitely identified the plane as a large commercial jet, an American Airlines jet, or a Boeing 757 for there to be any doubt as to what the plane actually was.

the available 5(?) frames of film and the UNavailable film that was confiscated right from the start speak quite persuasively.

also, a commercial jet cannot penetrate that amount of steel reinforced concrete. they're made of aluminium and crumble almost 'to dust' in an impact like that. it could never cut a perfect hole like that and then pass through the 18 feet (or whatever the number was) of steel reinforced concrete walls. not possible. fantasy land.

it also would have left a much bigger impact hole, and not a near-perfect geometric circle.

and maybe, i dunno.... some wing marks? or are there commercial jets out there flying without wings we're not meant to know about? (i think they're called missiles?)


Take a look at this picture. (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/5.jpg) Note the gentleman in the suit standing in the foreground. The fuselage of the plane entered the building at a point right above the gentleman's head. The right wing of the plane is responsible for the gaping opening behind where the spools are. The material in front of the gaping hole is material hanging down freely from the structure.

Damage done to the building by the left wing can be seen in this photograph (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/10.jpg), which was taken after the collapse of the floors above the impact area.

As for your notions about what "should have" happened, all I can say is you have some funny ideas about the physics of high-speed impacts.

and why did they cover up the remaining major engine (?) parts of the plane with a tarpaulin? something to hide? where was the rest of the debris from the plane? there's massive debris in a plane crash - where on earth did it go? they cleaned the lawn in unbelievable time using mostly bare sets of hands...


Go through all the trouble to plant a major piece of airplane debris and then cover it over with a tarp? I'm sorry, you've lost me.

Also, very little of the plane debris actually ended up on the lawn. Most of the debris came to rest inside the building. It's "truther catch-22" again, anyway. Even if additional photographs of airplane debris besides the ones currently available were released, you'd just say "planted evidence" or "faked photos". That's the "truth" movement's usual modus operandi.

hmm... something wrong with this picture? nah, the government never lies...

this is the same power network that funded the opposing sides in the last world wars...

the same power network responsible for numerous and ADMITTED false flag "terror attacks" and other such false flag events...(some of them used, like 9/11 to start faux 'wars' and other such delightful activities)

on and on the list goes... *yawn*

some people just don't want to face the grotesquities of life:

the 'elite' are psychotic and view us as slaves. they will do anything - ANYTHING - to achieve a fully fledged global feudal system.


Just like a truther. Accuse the thousands and thousands of good, decent and caring men and women (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/someoftheagencies%2Corganizationsandindivi) who responded to the 9/11 tragedy of being liars, dupes or shills for a shadowy network of "elites" bent on world domination. Accuse anyone of anything without so much as a twinge of guilt just to protect your precious delusional fantasies.

These are the people who are responsible for the "official story" you keep ignorantly disparaging, so whether you like to admit it or not, that's exactly what you are accusing them of being.

9/11 is a VERY SMALL PART OF THAT. 9/11 is actually not about 9/11.

it is about something far bigger and far more disturbing.

denial will not improve the situation, but some will rationalize themselves into a place where 'denial' is merely 'taking a rational view' and all other views are 'paranoid conspiracy theories'. this, of course, can only be achieved by being incredibly selective with the information one chooses to take cognizance of (think 'debunkers'). this may allow for the temporary avoidance of cognitive dissonance, but only so long as the papier mache damn walls can hold back the water that must inevitably burst through.

the tide is actually turning so fast, so to speak, that the debunker mind won't know what hit it when the damn finally bursts.


Here is a "9/11 was an inside job!" cultist sounding just like ... well, just about any member of any cult in human history.

keep making your posts gribz, but don't waste your energy arguing, if you want my advice. post your material if it helps elucidate truth for others who also want it - whatever form it may take. maybe your energies could be directed towards spreading awareness of fundamentals that people have had kept from them. start a website, make pamphlets, stickers, flyers, etc, if it feels right.

then ya won't be wasting yer time trying to convince those minds that will not be convinced "even if you prove it!"

in fact, by NOT addressing those who would blindly argue on into eternity, you can eventually change their minds by changing the consensus reality.

like a challenge?


I have a better idea. Why don't you guys start picking your way through the mountain of b.s. that is "9/11 truth" and find out how much of it is factual, logical, and reasonable?

A great way to start would be by getting in touch with some of those fire departments and other organizations in Mr. Roberts' list of people/organizations who responded to the Pentagon attacks and asking the people who were there that day what they actually saw.

Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue, American Airlines, American Red Cross, Arlington County Emergency Medical Services, Arlington County Fire Department, Arlington County Sheriff's Department, Arlington VA Police Department, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic staff, DeWitt Army Community Hospital staff, District of Columbia Fire & Rescue, DOD Honor Guard, Environmental Protection Agency Hazmat Teams, Fairfax County Fire & Rescue, FBI Evidence Recovery Teams, FBI Hazmat Teams, Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams, FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams Maryland Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, FEMA Emergency Response Team, Fort Myer Fire Department, Four U.S. Army Chaplains, Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit, Military District of Washington Engineers Search & Rescue Team, Montgomery County Fire & Rescue, U.S. National Guard units, National Naval Medical Center CCRF, National Transportation Safety Board, Pentagon Defense Protective Service, Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team, Pentagon Medical Staff, Rader Army Health Clinic Staff, SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams, Salvation Army Disaster Services, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County, Virginia Beach Fire Department, Virginia Department of Emergency Management, Virginia State Police


On second thought, maybe you shouldn't. I don't think you'd like the answers they gave you.

The answers might be "disillusioning", if you get my drift.

[stannrodd]

Tabea,

I will refer you to this image taken on September 12/13 by the entourage of Congresswoman Berkeley during her visit to the Pentagon in 2001, and posted on her official website.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/mil_pentagon_relief_plane.jpg

Can you identify if this is 757 wreckage ... or is it from something like an A3 Sky Warrior, or any other aircraft. To date no one has been able to identify this piece as being from a Boeing 757 .. I would have thought that it was possible given the USA's forensic capabilities.

If it is not from a 757 then the official story is crap. Fill your boots and see if you can prove it is 757 wreckage. I have tried and to date there is no way that it is from a 757.

I could be wrong .. and off course .. of course :)

Stann

[tabea_blumenschein]

Tabea,

I will refer you to this image taken on September 12/13 by the entourage of Congresswoman Berkeley during her visit to the Pentagon in 2001, and posted on her official website.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/mil_pentagon_relief_plane.jpg

Can you identify if this is 757 wreckage ... or is it from something like an A3 Sky Warrior, or any other aircraft. To date no one has been able to identify this piece as being from a Boeing 757 .. I would have thought that it was possible given the USA's forensic capabilities.

If it is not from a 757 then the official story is crap. Fill your boots and see if you can prove it is 757 wreckage. I have tried and to date there is no way that it is from a 757.

I could be wrong .. and off course .. of course :)

Stann


I cannot identify that piece of debris for you, nor do I know what makes you think that it might be from some other plane besides a Boeing 757. If you really need to know what make and model of airplane that debris is from, my recommendation is to send an e-mail to an engineer who works at Boeing, along with the photograph in question, and see if they can help identify it for you.

Other photographs of airplane wreckage at the Pentagon show debris that is consistent with being from a Boeing 757. The "null hypothesis" should be that this debris is from the same plane. Somehow I doubt that you believe that two planes crashed into the Pentagon at around the same time. If I were you, I think I'd lean toward the simpler explanation and say that the picture shows 757 wreckage, even if we can't definitely identify it as such.

Here are a few links to pages with photographs of Pentagon plane wreckage, along with some comparison photos:

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/pentagonattackpage2

http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html

I'm sorry I can't help you any further.

[stannrodd]

Tabea,

I have done that and the responses have been nil .. does that say anything to me.

What it says to me, is that there is little support for investigation into what may have been alleged.

Facts are facts for me as a Truther as you casually call us. I have an open mind mate and when Boeing will not provide anything at all .. it stinks of rats.

It would have been quite useful had the Boeing engineers come back and said that the piece of wreckage is from a 757 and this is what the part is .. and showing that to be fact with some supporting data. To show and tell so to speak.

Instead there was complete silence. Curious stuff don't you think .. or perhaps .. another loonie asking idiot questions.

Anyway the image is on the record. I have the website saved for the record as stated by the Congresswoman.

Is it 757 wreckage Tabea ??

I don't know that .. but if it isn't .. then there are a few questions which need to be answered .. don't you think.

Stann

[fanoftruth]

Personally I've always thought there was a fair possibility the Pentagon was struck by a 757 (thus quite possibly AA77) but I have never leaned in favour of it. There is enough eye witness testimony (though with one OBVIOUS plant) to consider it as the truth and despte the usual thruther claim that there was no wreckage at the crash site there was in fact a fair scatter of bits and pieces laying about.

I think the claim that Hani Hanjour made the recorded maneuvers en route to crashing against the side of the building is simply ludicrous and is nothing short of an intellectually degrading thing to believe, add to that I'm quite sure that if an American Airlines 757 had genuinly hit the building there is little doubt that we would have been presented with the video evidence.

For the authorities to reveal the infamous 5 frames and for them to believe they prove anything is again quite ubsurd.

[stannrodd]

What do you think we should do about this image .. ignore it.?

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/mil_pentagon_relief_plane.jpg

What do you think strt ?

Stann

[strt]

What do you think we should do about this image .. ignore it.?

What do you think strt ?

Stann

I think that posting same images and arguments will not make any side change it's view. I am very afraid that some of you guys can't break out of the loop of hanging exclusively at this forum, wasting both your time and bandwidth, discussing events that happened eight years ago :( Sure, I can think of number of new untouched 911 topics and we can all argue about them too. In the meantime there is whole world of spirituality and current events that impact our lives as we speak.

Sure, we all overslept 911 and did not reacted when we should but we are all in danger now of not noticing another false flag by dealing too much with the past.

Personally I feel deeply embarrassed because of wasted time and energy at 911 forum. :(

[dave52]

Personally I feel deeply embarrassed because of wasted time and energy at 911 forum. :(

Don't come in here then.

[stannrodd]

For those of you interested ...

Here's the url to the Congresswoman Shelley Berkley's website. The page has thumbnail links to larger images. There are other Pentagon pics there too.

http://berkley.house.gov/legis/otr/press_releases/2001/pr_2001_0913.html

Stann

[tabea_blumenschein]

For those of you interested ...

Here's the url to the Congresswoman Shelley Berkley's website. The page has thumbnail links to larger images. There are other Pentagon pics there too.

http://berkley.house.gov/legis/otr/press_releases/2001/pr_2001_0913.html

Stann


My most recent posts have been rather angry, but that anger is not directed at you.

About that piece of plane wreckage. Could you briefly explain why you think that it might not be wreckage from a Boeing 757? I've looked at the picture carefully and I don't see what's making you suspicious.

Also, you might want to talk about the other photos of plane wreckage around the Pentagon. Do you think that the other wreckage is from a 757? Why or why not?

[stannrodd]

About that piece of plane wreckage. Could you briefly explain why you think that it might not be wreckage from a Boeing 757? I've looked at the picture carefully and I don't see what's making you suspicious.

Also, you might want to talk about the other photos of plane wreckage around the Pentagon. Do you think that the other wreckage is from a 757? Why or why not?

The point I was trying to make is .. that it SHOULD be 757 wreckage if we are to believe the Official Story.

There has been much conjecture and speculation as to the Pentagon attack.

My reason for working in this field, is to ascertain whether the conjecture and speculation has any merit.

If the wreckage can be clearly identified as being from a 757 then either a 757 hit the Pentagon as alleged or the wreckage was planted there.

If however the wreckage is not 757 then what the ferk is it doing there considering what the media has told us.

If this is the case then .. what is it, and why is it there.

I joined up at the F-16 forums and started an underhand thread so as to enlist the help of some aircraft experts about a mystery wreckage piece.

They told me that it wasn't from an F16. One charming expert claimed it was from the space shuttle which broke up on re-entry. :D

However I got busted by an alert mod who checked out my username, found where I was posting and simply dismissed me from the forum as a lunatic 9/11 nutter.

Now having approached Boeing and got silence it remains a mystery. The piece no doubt still exists as evidence "surely".

It's not about what I think Tabea, it's about what is fact. Are the other pieces 757?

I don't know .. but they should be if the story is correct.

Stann

[tabea_blumenschein]

Your points are fair enough, but I still don't see what there is to be suspicious about. For the life of me, I don't see what makes you think that that piece might not be 757 wreckage.

The plane was definitely identified by eyewitnesses as "a large passenger jet", "a United Airlines jet" or "a 757" by eyewitnesses, as per the summery in my previous post. The plane was actually seen to crash into the building (http://www.pbs.org/memorialdayconcert/stories/sept11.html) (warning, some rather grim reading). The remains of the flight 77 passengers were found at the Pentagon crash site.

Once again, I post the following as a reminder:

Conspiracists are afraid to have their fantasies destroyed, so they scrupulously avoid contacting the hundreds of Pentagon 9/11 first responders and the over 8,000 people who worked on rescue, recovery, evidence collection, building stabilization, and security in the days after 9/11. These are just some of the organizations whose members worked on the scene:

Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue, American Airlines, American Red Cross, Arlington County Emergency Medical Services, Arlington County Fire Department, Arlington County Sheriff's Department, Arlington VA Police Department, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic staff, DeWitt Army Community Hospital staff, District of Columbia Fire & Rescue, DOD Honor Guard, Environmental Protection Agency Hazmat Teams, Fairfax County Fire & Rescue, FBI Evidence Recovery Teams, FBI Hazmat Teams, Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams, FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams Maryland Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, FEMA Emergency Response Team, Fort Myer Fire Department, Four U.S. Army Chaplains, Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit, Military District of Washington Engineers Search & Rescue Team, Montgomery County Fire & Rescue, U.S. National Guard units, National Naval Medical Center CCRF, National Transportation Safety Board, Pentagon Defense Protective Service, Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team, Pentagon Medical Staff, Rader Army Health Clinic Staff, SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams, Salvation Army Disaster Services, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County, Virginia Beach Fire Department, Virginia Department of Emergency Management, Virginia State Police


If anyone in the truth movement were to contact these people, they'd no doubt get a response something like this one (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1849603&postcount=1), from retired USAF Col Hal Bidlack to one Killtown.

Killtown,
I am certainly aware of people like yourself who believe that those of us who suffered on 9/11 must be part of some giant plot, either as dupes or plotters. I was in the Pentagon when the plane hit, I held parts of that aircraft in my hands, covered with fuel and oil, and I helped with the triage area. I helped a guy with a headwound, aided ambulances coming in, and suffer to this day with ongoing nightmares on a very regular basis. When one has seen what I saw, and had to do what I had to do, the images, the smells, the sounds, resonate in your mind forever.

I do not object to your desire to dispute the facts of that day. While I feel you are hopelessly naive and silly, that is your right. But please know that your page on the Pentagon crash is deeply offensive to the survivors such as myself. Again, it's not that you argue. But your tone is one of mocking, of making light of the greatest suffering I ever saw in my 25 years of military service. Your fake "quotes," your quips, all mock the pain of those of us that were there, and served that day. I am very likely one of the people in some of your photographs, and I assure you our thoughts were not about the grass (a silly claim you make, by the way), but were deeply, intensely worried about the people hurt, the people left inside. I will never forget that day, and while I can forgive your foolishness in not understanding the facts, the science, the reality of that day, I find it much harder to forgive your willingness to laugh at those who were so terribly hurt that day. Such an attitude shows you to be a cruel and heartless person, in addition to silly one.

LT Col Hal Bidlack
USAF Retired


Of course, the contactee would then be smeared as a "murderer" or "an accomplice to murder". That's what the truth movement does best.

Again, that's not directed at you, Stann.

[stannrodd]

Your points are fair enough, but I still don't see what there is to be suspicious about. For the life of me, I don't see what makes you think that that piece might not be 757 wreckage.


I never said that it might not be 757 wreckage .. Tabea.

I said it Should be 757 wreckage ..

That is how we think differently.

Stann

[dave52]

but I still don't see what there is to be suspicious about.

Er...

http://website.lineone.net/~bosankoe/exit_hole_c.jpg

[cruise4]

What Hit the Pentagon? - A new paper at the Journal of 9/11 Studies

http://www.911blogger.com/node/20771

The Journal of 9/11 Studies has published a new paper by Dr. Frank Legge, entitled "What Hit the Pentagon?"

http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2009/WhatHitPentagonDrLegge.pdf

Here are some excerpts:

"The most logical inference from the Pentagon attack evidence is that the perpetrators of 9/11 knew that there would be many members of the public who would become suspicious for one reason or another. The perpetrators realized that a powerful technique for weakening the arguments of the skeptics would be to have them arguing against one another."

"There are two essential points to note:

1. Nothing should have hit the Pentagon. This implies a stand down order existed, as
appears to be confirmed by Mineta’s testimony to the 9/11 Commission.

2. The authorities could easily show us what hit the Pentagon but they do not."

[zhenshanren]

Video evidence is not needed to prove that a 757 hit the Pentagon. There is plenty of other evidence to clinch the case.

Besides, there's the classic truther "catch-22" ...

No video = it didn't happen.

Video = faked evidence.

Even if there were dozens of videos clearly showing the plane, you'd dismiss them as "CGI" or some such rubbish. You know you would.



Sure, there are a few discrepancies between the stories of the eyewitnesses; that's not unexpected. You have to take into account where the witnesses were standing, how unobstructed their view was, for how many seconds they saw the plane, and so forth. There are a couple of witnesses among those whose testimonies are summarized in my previous post who described a "corporate jet" or "commuter plane". But too many people definitely identified the plane as a large commercial jet, an American Airlines jet, or a Boeing 757 for there to be any doubt as to what the plane actually was.




Take a look at this picture. (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/5.jpg) Note the gentleman in the suit standing in the foreground. The fuselage of the plane entered the building at a point right above the gentleman's head. The right wing of the plane is responsible for the gaping opening behind where the spools are. The material in front of the gaping hole is material hanging down freely from the structure.

Damage done to the building by the left wing can be seen in this photograph (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/10.jpg), which was taken after the collapse of the floors above the impact area.

As for your notions about what "should have" happened, all I can say is you have some funny ideas about the physics of high-speed impacts.




Go through all the trouble to plant a major piece of airplane debris and then cover it over with a tarp? I'm sorry, you've lost me.

Also, very little of the plane debris actually ended up on the lawn. Most of the debris came to rest inside the building. It's "truther catch-22" again, anyway. Even if additional photographs of airplane debris besides the ones currently available were released, you'd just say "planted evidence" or "faked photos". That's the "truth" movement's usual modus operandi.




Just like a truther. Accuse the thousands and thousands of good, decent and caring men and women (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/someoftheagencies%2Corganizationsandindivi) who responded to the 9/11 tragedy of being liars, dupes or shills for a shadowy network of "elites" bent on world domination. Accuse anyone of anything without so much as a twinge of guilt just to protect your precious delusional fantasies.

These are the people who are responsible for the "official story" you keep ignorantly disparaging, so whether you like to admit it or not, that's exactly what you are accusing them of being.




Here is a "9/11 was an inside job!" cultist sounding just like ... well, just about any member of any cult in human history.




I have a better idea. Why don't you guys start picking your way through the mountain of b.s. that is "9/11 truth" and find out how much of it is factual, logical, and reasonable?

A great way to start would be by getting in touch with some of those fire departments and other organizations in Mr. Roberts' list of people/organizations who responded to the Pentagon attacks and asking the people who were there that day what they actually saw.




On second thought, maybe you shouldn't. I don't think you'd like the answers they gave you.

The answers might be "disillusioning", if you get my drift.

Dude, you are tripping!

[cruise4]

Air Force Vet Breaks Silence on What Hit Pentagon on 9-11
James P. Tucker, Jr.
American Free Press
Friday, July 31, 2009

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/pentagon_on_9-11_187.html

A veteran Air Force mechanic called to help clean up the Sept. 11, 2001 explosion at the Pentagon says the U.S. government’s blaming a plane for the damage makes no sense. The evidence was staged, he said.

He agreed to a face-to-face interview with AFP on condition he not be identified for obvious reasons: the Air Force would punish him severely (the same military harshness that gagged survivors of the 1967 USS Liberty attack for many years).

The airman, a tech sergeant, is richly experienced in hazardous waste cleanup, having been deployed twice to Afghanistan in the first Persian Gulf war under President Bush the Elder and, later, under George the Younger. He has 17 years of Air Force service.

Air Force Vet Breaks Silence on What Hit Pentagon on 9 11 150709banner1

The scene at the Pentagon “doesn’t look right,” the airman said. “There was only a piece of engine and sections of landing gear on the ground. It was like they were placed there. Where were the wings? Tail section? We expected to find a lot of debris but there was very little.”

There were “two massive engines” from planes that had, according to the government, penetrated the Pentagon “but the holes were too small” for that to be true, the airman said. The holes in the Pentagon were of the size made by Predators—the remote-controlled spy planes used in Iraq and Afghanistan—he said.

He indicated agreement with numerous construction experts interviewed by AFP who say the planes that struck the Twin Towers in New York could not have caused them to collapse as they did and bombs had to have been set off from inside.

Another oddity he noted was the story of young Israeli citizens, in this country illegally, who had set up a tripod camera on the roof of the warehouse where they worked and trained their camera on the Twin Towers shortly before the attacks. Witnesses told police the boys celebrated the attacks by joyfully jumping and slapping hands. Police held the men overnight and they were returned to Israel the next day. All this was reported in the mainstream media, but the story was immediately dropped. How did these Israelis know where to be and when to film the Trade Center disaster.

His “first instinct” is still with him. The airman told AMERICAN FREE PRESS: “We attacked ourselves to set up the invasion of Iraq.”

If true, this is the exact definition of treason, the penalty for which is death.

Me: Ever get the feeling they react to 'us'?

[tabea_blumenschein]

Air Force Vet Breaks Silence on What Hit Pentagon on 9-11
James P. Tucker, Jr.
American Free Press
Friday, July 31, 2009

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/pentagon_on_9-11_187.html

A veteran Air Force mechanic called to help clean up the Sept. 11, 2001 explosion at the Pentagon says the U.S. government’s blaming a plane for the damage makes no sense. The evidence was staged, he said.

He agreed to a face-to-face interview with AFP on condition he not be identified for obvious reasons: the Air Force would punish him severely (the same military harshness that gagged survivors of the 1967 USS Liberty attack for many years).

The airman, a tech sergeant, is richly experienced in hazardous waste cleanup, having been deployed twice to Afghanistan in the first Persian Gulf war under President Bush the Elder and, later, under George the Younger. He has 17 years of Air Force service.

Air Force Vet Breaks Silence on What Hit Pentagon on 9 11 150709banner1

The scene at the Pentagon “doesn’t look right,” the airman said. “There was only a piece of engine and sections of landing gear on the ground. It was like they were placed there. Where were the wings? Tail section? We expected to find a lot of debris but there was very little.”

There were “two massive engines” from planes that had, according to the government, penetrated the Pentagon “but the holes were too small” for that to be true, the airman said. The holes in the Pentagon were of the size made by Predators—the remote-controlled spy planes used in Iraq and Afghanistan—he said.

He indicated agreement with numerous construction experts interviewed by AFP who say the planes that struck the Twin Towers in New York could not have caused them to collapse as they did and bombs had to have been set off from inside.

Another oddity he noted was the story of young Israeli citizens, in this country illegally, who had set up a tripod camera on the roof of the warehouse where they worked and trained their camera on the Twin Towers shortly before the attacks. Witnesses told police the boys celebrated the attacks by joyfully jumping and slapping hands. Police held the men overnight and they were returned to Israel the next day. All this was reported in the mainstream media, but the story was immediately dropped. How did these Israelis know where to be and when to film the Trade Center disaster.

His “first instinct” is still with him. The airman told AMERICAN FREE PRESS: “We attacked ourselves to set up the invasion of Iraq.”

If true, this is the exact definition of treason, the penalty for which is death.

Me: Ever get the feeling they react to 'us'?


The American Free Press. Hmmm, that's a piece of filth brought to us by neo-fascists and holocaust deniers, right? (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1797725&postcount=1)

That's where a lot of the horseshit in the "Loose Change" videos came from, right?

Great place to get your "evidence" from.

~

You gotta love truthers. After all that time and effort trying to explain why a huge commercial jet going upwards of 500 mph "shouldn't" be able to pierce the wall of the building, they decide that the damage was due to much smaller, much slower predator drones instead:

There were “two massive engines” from planes that had, according to the government, penetrated the Pentagon “but the holes were too small” for that to be true, the airman said. The holes in the Pentagon were of the size made by Predators—the remote-controlled spy planes used in Iraq and Afghanistan—he said.

Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

~

Oh, and here we go with the five dancing Israelis (http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html) again.

Another oddity he noted was the story of young Israeli citizens, in this country illegally, who had set up a tripod camera on the roof of the warehouse where they worked and trained their camera on the Twin Towers shortly before the attacks. Witnesses told police the boys celebrated the attacks by joyfully jumping and slapping hands.

~

Now about that interview.

This is a quick, 2-page summery of what the anonymous Air Force mechanic has to refute.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/911pentagonflight77evidencesummary

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/pentagonattackpage2

I expect what the JREFer's like to call an "EPIC FAIL."

[tabea_blumenschein]

I never said that it might not be 757 wreckage .. Tabea.

I said it Should be 757 wreckage ..

That is how we think differently.

Stann


I agree with you, it should be 757 wreckage.

I just don't see why there should be any doubt that it is.

[tabea_blumenschein]

Er...

http://website.lineone.net/~bosankoe/exit_hole_c.jpg

Are you drawing my attention to the exit hole indicated by the red rectangle?

What about it?

[tabea_blumenschein]

Dude, you are tripping!


I have never taken illegal drugs of any kind in my life; nor have I ever taken so much as a single drink of alcohol.

If you'd like to debate something I said, do so.

[secondsun]

I just don't see why there should be any doubt that it is.

...can anyone see a 757?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/911wasainsidejob/pentagon-animation.gif

[stannrodd]

I agree with you, it should be 757 wreckage.

I just don't see why there should be any doubt that it is.

There is doubt .. and I have noticed it .. I even agree painfully with that public doubt.

Why you do not see any reason for doubt, .. must be based in a belief .. in some sort of faceless Truth .. which you do not doubt. BUT I don't get that at all.

It's a bit like saying God is irrefutable !!

Like I said before, .. I have an open mind .. I am prepared to look at all sides objectively.

It is my opinion that you do not have that same openness to discussion. Can I suggest that you look at what can be put on the table .. not what has been put on the table.

tabea I respect your outlook but it's not quiite open enough for me.

Cheers
Stann

[matrix911]

...can anyone see a 757?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/911wasainsidejob/pentagon-animation.gif

In the real world where the perpetrators weren't in charge of the evidence before it was leaked.. errr i mean released, I'd say this is where and the WAY one would expect to see a 757...in all its detail and luster.

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18e2538993cb.gif

go figure.

but of course we all know the footage was doctored, frames edited out and/or photoshopped to hide the fly-over and/or missle if there was one.