Speaking in Tongues...........

[james777]

Acts 2

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

I'm just curious to see what ya'll think about 'speaking in tongues'. It's a way for our souls to communicate directly with God the Creator. It edifies/recharges our physical and spiritual senses. I know this to be true through experience.........

Does anyone here in fact 'speak in tongues'? Is anyone totally against it? I'm just curious to see how a forum full of 'spritual people feel about this......

[challand]

If you haven't seen it, watch 'Jesus Camp'. It is an interesting documentary focusing on Pentacostal and Evangelicals... there is a good deal of speaking in tounges and I found it utterly creepy and wierd!

[deathstickboy]

The biblical passages seem to describe a form of telepathy/mass telepathy.

What Pentacostals and other evangelical christians are doing when they claim they are speaking in tounges, is babbling utter gibberish.

[titurel]

The biblical passages seem to describe a form of telepathy/mass telepathy.

What Pentacostals and other evangelical christians are doing when they claim they are speaking in tounges, is babbling utter gibberish.
Modern evanges are babbling. So are politicians... All politicians talk gibberish these days.

.

[james777]

The biblical passages seem to describe a form of telepathy/mass telepathy.

What Pentacostals and other evangelical christians are doing when they claim they are speaking in tounges, is babbling utter gibberish.

No, it's describing a quite literal act. They were heard and seen by many when they first received the 'Holy Spirit'.

How do you know it's 'utter gibberish'? Have you taken part and been filled with the 'Holy Spirit'? Or is this just your opinion?

[cheeb]

I have witnessed this,
At a charismatic? church ,
they seem to be saying:

"Have a bacardi have a shandy,"
very fast.

Brainwashed ,
Programmed,
Indoctrinated,
Fools that they Are.

Same as hypnosis,
Mass Suggestiability,
And Advertising,

Break the matrix,
And tear down the walls of your programming,

Jesus died for his own sins, not mine!

Peace On Earth,

Power To The People!

[titurel]

I have witnessed this,
At a charismatic? church ,
they seem to be saying:

"Have a bacardi have a shandy,"
very fast.

Brainwashed ,
Programmed,
Indoctrinated,
Fools that they Are.

Same as hypnosis,
Mass Suggestiability,
And Advertising,

Break the matrix,
And tear down the walls of your programming,

Jesus died for his own sins, not mine!

Peace On Earth,

Power To The People!
What proof do you have that that is how it was 2,000 years ago? Didn't you know anyone who sins becomes enslaved to Satan. Christ was the only one who could break that devish bond and set us potentially free, but if you prefer to remain chained to your own strength for eternity, without super help, that's entirely your choice. God let's us choose which path we want to take, into eternal life or death...

[fccool]

The problem is ... people don't keep reading :). Read the whole thing!

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?


So if people would read the whole passage and not letting their priests/pastors make decision for them... it is clear to me that these people were speaking in known languages they did not know... and people from other countries could understand them.

What Pentacostals doing today is Speaking in NO KNOW LANGUAGE. Nobody can understand what they are saying. They claim it to be the true sign of "Holy Spirit", which it is not. It's just means to control by mass hysteria. If you go to some of their churches you would see what I'm talking about. It's pretty entertaining, but sad nevertheless.

So to answer your original question. Yes I speak tongues. I speak English, Russian, Ukrainian, and enough Spanish to carry on a semi-conversation.:D

[james777]

The problem is ... people don't keep reading :). Read the whole thing!

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?


So if people would read the whole passage and not letting their priests/pastors make decision for them... it is clear to me that these people were speaking in known languages they did not know... and people from other countries could understand them.

What Pentacostals doing today is Speaking in NO KNOW LANGUAGE. Nobody can understand what they are saying. They claim it to be the true sign of "Holy Spirit", which it is not. It's just means to control by mass hysteria. If you go to some of their churches you would see what I'm talking about. It's pretty entertaining, but sad nevertheless.

So to answer your original question. Yes I speak tongues. I speak English, Russian, Ukrainian, and enough Spanish to carry on a semi-conversation.:D

Вы не знаете что когда вы продолжаетесь прочитать о говорить в языках они также говорят heavenly языком не будет ' знанный ' язык на земле?

[cheeb]

Did not anyone know,
That God is a programme,
To keep you enslaved,
Into a dubious mindset,
C'mon , this is the David Icke forum here,
Not the born again missionary.

Infiltrators.

POe
Pttb

[titurel]

Did not anyone know,
That God is a programme,
To keep you enslaved,
Into a dubious mindset,
C'mon , this is the David Icke forum here,
Not the born again missionary.

Infiltrators.

POe
Pttb
It's best to focus on the real people plotting to become God by taking over the world. The NWO illuminati people. That's why I don't pay any homage to politicians and religious leaders. They are all deceived. One can't blame those who don't support any worldly institutions and the Houses of Corruptions.

[fccool]

Вы не знаете что когда вы продолжаетесь прочитать о говорить в языках они также говорят heavenly языком не будет ' знанный ' язык на земле?

Not in Acts 2. Yesli tim mozesh yeto pokazat' yeto v Acts 2, to bud' moim gostyem. Ya znayu chto oni govorili na yazikah angelov tak ze, no tyebye nado ponyat' pochyemu Bog dal im dar yetih yazikov. Prosti myenya, potomu chto ya nye znayu Bibliyskiye termini na Russkom. V Den' pentacosta, Bog dal im dar yazikov chtobi ih smogli ponyat' lyudi iz drugih stran.
I don't see them speaking anything other then what is described in Acts 2. In fact there is no other mention of "tounges of Angels", other than in the following passage:
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become a sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal” (1 Cor. 13:1)

There's no other passage you can find that says anything about speaking in "tounges of Angels". Even in this passage it is secondary to tounges of men, and is used as illustration.


In the following passage it even descredits the practice. Forgive me for pasting the entire Chapter, but I'll add emphasis as it goes. Notice that nothing in there says anything about Angelic Tounges. Although absence of proof is not proof of absence, it makes it much harder to debate :), especially when there's much more contrary evidence:


6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[e] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:

"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"


26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. ....

If you can show me an example of the "heavenly tounge" (other than a hyperbolic example in 1 Cor 13:1) spoken to people, then I would be gladly stand corrected. If not, then I can logically conclude that the languages that were spoken in Acts 2 were simply that... earthly languages so that others could understand and the passage above I think speaks for it.

There would also be a simple way to see if the people really speaking something, or if they are faking it and just let out blubber of speech. If the language does exist, then it is a set language. I doubt if you get two of these in the room separately and let them interpret a sentence into a "heavenly" language... it would be the same thing :). The only way this can work if nobody else knows what the heck they just said. Then anybody can enterpret, and believe me people swollow it hook and sinker because they think they are "experiencing" something. I don't think you can experience God in such manner. It is not a feeling, it's 100% mind changing process. But, once again, it's your choice what to believe. I would not expect, or require anybody to believe what I do.

[challand]

Personally I think it sounds evil when a whole room of people are babbling! I dunno, just seems like something you might see going on at a Satanist convention.

[deathstickboy]

No, it's describing a quite literal act. They were heard and seen by many when they first received the 'Holy Spirit'.

How do you know it's 'utter gibberish'? Have you taken part and been filled with the 'Holy Spirit'? Or is this just your opinion?

Language experts have anlayzed their bullshit gibberish "speaking in toungues" and found nothing intelligable, or recognizable as an actual language.

Its typical cultish behavior, meant to confuse and bewilder the mind, making people more suceptible to the brainwashing that goes on in those sorts of institutions. In some cases it may even be indicitive of demonic possession.
"being filled with the Holy Spirit" is just another word for uncontrolled religious extascy, and it can be as dangerous as an ouija board.

If you actually read the passages, as I said, it seems to be describing a form of mass telepathy. How else could a group of people, all hear the words being spoken in their own tongue?

So are you here to minister for Evangelicals or something?
I studied the bible heavily starting at age 6, to the age of 13.
I was teaching a sunday school class when I was 11.
I have many encounters with Pentacostals, as my grandparents joined that church shortly before I was born. I know all about it.

I have experienced extremely joyous bouts of religious extascy as well. I was on 5 hits of acid and at a System of a Down concert, but the effect is still the same, except that I wasn't babbling gibberish. Just singing along.

[titurel]

The problem is ... people don't keep reading :). Read the whole thing!

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?


So if people would read the whole passage and not letting their priests/pastors make decision for them... it is clear to me that these people were speaking in known languages they did not know... and people from other countries could understand them.

What Pentacostals doing today is Speaking in NO KNOW LANGUAGE. Nobody can understand what they are saying. They claim it to be the true sign of "Holy Spirit", which it is not. It's just means to control by mass hysteria. If you go to some of their churches you would see what I'm talking about. It's pretty entertaining, but sad nevertheless.

So to answer your original question. Yes I speak tongues. I speak English, Russian, Ukrainian, and enough Spanish to carry on a semi-conversation.:D
Good post!

[chris]

euaoifioipf euio auoips efuioaseupoif uiunvpouwui p ofwunvp wapoawivn upoaw ipoawvin paw poiuawuvnpo miwapoam w vpapomwi vpoawiufvpawoi paowivpoieuvpeoaia, opmv,ivma piormgapoi paoimvgupaeoiuvgpa pawiugpaoivmpuag ippaowvmgapoig paoiwm vpgaviuvmapg paouwigpoaigr vmpoaeirupoam v paoimv poaiewurpoiauopiuvgpoiaupvoiuavpoiupaviupaoivu vpaoimpmv pa poaiu vpoaim vpoiua po ivpa uvgproeiua; mipqop poairewm peaipm vgaermup a pom vipagm vpaogim pa poaivapo vaoewmupaoiru

Am I close to god now?

[titurel]

euaoifioipf euio auoips efuioaseupoif uiunvpouwui p ofwunvp wapoawivn upoaw ipoawvin paw poiuawuvnpo miwapoam w vpapomwi vpoawiufvpawoi paowivpoieuvpeoaia, opmv,ivma piormgapoi paoimvgupaeoiuvgpa pawiugpaoivmpuag ippaowvmgapoig paoiwm vpgaviuvmapg paouwigpoaigr vmpoaeirupoam v paoimv poaiewurpoiauopiuvgpoiaupvoiuavpoiupaviupaoivu vpaoimpmv pa poaiu vpoaim vpoiua po ivpa uvgproeiua; mipqop poairewm peaipm vgaermup a pom vipagm vpaogim pa poaivapo vaoewmupaoiru

Am I close to god now?
I think you're missing the point...

[cheeb]

Language experts have anlayzed their bullshit gibberish "speaking in toungues" and found nothing intelligable, or recognizable as an actual language.

Its typical cultish behavior, meant to confuse and bewilder the mind, making people more suceptible to the brainwashing that goes on in those sorts of institutions. In some cases it may even be indicitive of demonic possession.
"being filled with the Holy Spirit" is just another word for uncontrolled religious extascy, and it can be as dangerous as an ouija board.

If you actually read the passages, as I said, it seems to be describing a form of mass telepathy. How else could a group of people, all hear the words being spoken in their own tongue?

So are you here to minister for Evangelicals or something?
I studied the bible heavily starting at age 6, to the age of 13.
I was teaching a sunday school class when I was 11.
I have many encounters with Pentacostals, as my grandparents joined that church shortly before I was born. I know all about it.

I have experienced extremely joyous bouts of religious extascy as well. I was on 5 hits of acid and at a System of a Down concert, but the effect is still the same, except that I wasn't babbling gibberish. Just singing along.

I very much doubt that they will listen to reason,
The next thing ,
Is you will be called the antichrist,
lapdog of satan,
like what john White was,
It would be quite funny,
but they genuinly beleive this mental illness,
In psychological terms,
its called guilt,
braiwashing,
and fear,
manifested in outcome dramas,
like charismatic or eastenders,

Look at me,
Iam Important,
I am a drama Queen,

Spoilt little brats

[titurel]

I very much doubt that they will listen to reason,
The next thing ,
Is you will be called the antichrist,
lapdog of satan,
like what john White was,
It would be quite funny,
but they genuinly beleive this mental illness,
In psychological terms,
its called guilt,
braiwashing,
and fear,
manifested in outcome dramas,
like charismatic or eastenders,

Look at me,
Iam Important,
I am a drama Queen,

Spoilt little brats
You're just fiddling your fingers while Rome is thankfully burning!

LOL!

[cheeb]

And you are denying yourself help,
Because of pride,
Psychologists out there ,
This isn't transference,
I feel he/she is crying out for help

[fccool]

I very much doubt that they will listen to reason,
The next thing ,
Is you will be called the antichrist,
lapdog of satan,
like what john White was,
It would be quite funny,
but they genuinly beleive this mental illness,
In psychological terms,
its called guilt,
braiwashing,
and fear,
manifested in outcome dramas,
like charismatic or eastenders,

Look at me,
Iam Important,
I am a drama Queen,

Spoilt little brats

Hehe, so what are you doing right now? Mind control is symply trying to make others believe what you want them to... that's the simplest form of mind control. I think you need to understand the beauty of choice. I don't care what you believe per se, and it's none on my business (In Icke's own words). So make up your mind and argue your point intelligently, by backing it up by something solid rather than " You are ignorant idiot" type of statements. Personally, I don't think you are a better person for believing contrary than me, and otherwise... I don't concider myself to be a better person for believing what I do. We are all in the same boat, and the choice is left to us. So make it and stop bitching about others making choices different than you are. I don't see them standing over you calling you a brainwashed idiot. So, my advice, pay some more respect to personal choices. Choice is a wonderful thing.

[montag]

euaoifioipf euio auoips efuioaseupoif uiunvpouwui p ofwunvp wapoawivn upoaw ipoawvin paw poiuawuvnpo miwapoam w vpapomwi vpoawiufvpawoi paowivpoieuvpeoaia, opmv,ivma piormgapoi paoimvgupaeoiuvgpa pawiugpaoivmpuag ippaowvmgapoig paoiwm vpgaviuvmapg paouwigpoaigr vmpoaeirupoam v paoimv poaiewurpoiauopiuvgpoiaupvoiuavpoiupaviupaoivu vpaoimpmv pa poaiu vpoaim vpoiua po ivpa uvgproeiua; mipqop poairewm peaipm vgaermup a pom vipagm vpaogim pa poaivapo vaoewmupaoiru

Am I close to god now?
Try this.. YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[titurel]

And you are denying yourself help,
Because of pride,
Psychologists out there ,
This isn't transference,
I feel he/she is crying out for help
The whole human race is crying out for help, judging by this film, Cheeb!

"They want your Soul"

Your Government is in Control! Phew!

"This reveals what 911 catalyzed, and more importantly what it's distracting even the truth seekers from acknowledging. This is a crash course in the bitter truth of the state of our society, government and the technological system that's beyond even Hitler's own wet dream.
Visit www.ignoranceisntbliss.com (http://www.ignoranceisntbliss.com) for the Bibliography / Research Guide before you dismiss this videos contents.

It features assaulting visuals, with facts and combined information that you wont find in any other documentary, laid over an music score that you wont soon forget. With the intense audio/visuals and loads of information you may need to watch this several times to absorb the many things you've probably never heard of. The information contained in this video applies to all Americans and humans alike, regards of beliefs or affiliations.

Major Talking Points: Political bias cognitive neuroscience (Political Bias Illusion Complex), Controlled Big 5 Media / Propaganda / Public Relations (PR) [Misinformation, Disinformation & emotional PR has been perpetrated against our minds for some 80 years now by politicians, Big Government & Big Business], Americana pop culture / sports, the elite, TV & Radio induced ignorance, Americans literally know more about The Simpsons & American idol than the Bill of Rights, death of the middle class, natural disaster profits, our phony left / right hybrid political system, Bush / Kerry, Skull & Bones, hacked and rigged elections, 9-11 Commission / Prior-Knowledge, Fear Mongering, Freedom / Terrorism, shredded Constitution, War in Iraq, Bush's "new Pearl Harbor", Project for the New American Century (PNAC) / American Imperialism / New Roman Empire, Military Net Centric Computing / Global Information Grid (GIG), NSA's Echelon & wiretaps, Data mines, DARPA Internet2, TIA MATRIX, National-ID's (REAL ID Act), GPS car / cell phone tracking, ITS / CTS, Verichip-Implants, Nanotechnology (nano), NBIC, Masonic-DC, DARPA's cognitive Artificial Intelligence computer programs, NASA's Intelligent Archives, God-on-Earth, Technological Singularity, Transhumanism, Biological / Optical / Quantum computers, cyborgs, Beast of Revelation, and the New Age using theorized Mayan Calendar 2012 prophecies to fool people into expecting something like this system & it's related technologies with their so-called upcoming "transformation of consciousness" event."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=209842906347732903&q=they

There's also a time for laughter, and this is it! LOL!

[cheeb]

Ignmorance is bliss,
nothing new,
They want your soul,
I have seen sheep in a field,
I have seen a flock in a congregation,
That is not an Answer,
That is another Question???

[titurel]

Ignmorance is bliss,
nothing new,
They want your soul,
I have seen sheep in a field,
I have seen a flock in a congregation,
That is not an Answer,
That is another Question???
I feel just the way you feel about it, cheeb. I shall never surrender easily! If I'm going to die anyway, might as well go out going forawrds!

[cheeb]

Hehe, so what are you doing right now? Mind control is symply trying to make others believe what you want them to... that's the simplest form of mind control. I think you need to understand the beauty of choice. I don't care what you believe per se, and it's none on my business (In Icke's own words). So make up your mind and argue your point intelligently, by backing it up by something solid rather than " You are ignorant idiot" type of statements. Personally, I don't think you are a better person for believing contrary than me, and otherwise... I don't concider myself to be a better person for believing what I do. We are all in the same boat, and the choice is left to us. So make it and stop bitching about others making choices different than you are. I don't see them standing over you calling you a brainwashed idiot. So, my advice, pay some more respect to personal choices. Choice is a wonderful thing.
That was scientific,
not conjecture,
Not hear of Freud,
Jung,
Radfield,
Choice, where is your scientific study for choice,
Do some research ,
I did mine,
And in this world there are no choices ,
just well trodden paths,

Poor me'
Aloof'
Interrogator'
Intimadator'

I see you as an Interrorgator,
Bordering on the intimadator,

Psychotic
or sociopathitic,
Your choice >

and sorry ffcool,
i think i misjudged you,
i just had a look through your posts,
i can see no reason to not agree wih you,
my assumptions ,i am afraid!!!

[fccool]

That was scientific,
not conjecture,
Not hear of Freud,
Jung,
Radfield,
Choice, where is your scientific study for choice,
Do some research ,
I did mine,
And in this world there are no choices ,
just well trodden paths,

Poor me'
Aloof'
Interrogator'
Intimadator'

I see you as an Interrorgator,
Bordering on the intimadator,

Psychotic
or sociopathitic,
Your choice >

and sorry ffcool,
i think i misjudged you,
i just had a look through your posts,
i can see no reason to not agree wih you,
my assumptions ,i am afraid!!!

Then it does not really matter.

[cheeb]

:)Thank you

[limelady]

The brain-state known as catharsis is a temporarily state where the brain is wiped clean and the new suggestion is accepted. It is used by Christian fundamentalist preachers as a form of mind control for controlling their congregation

The techniques and staging will vary from church to church. Many use "speaking in tongues" to generate catharsis in some while the spectacle creates intense excitement in the observers.

See this article here (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309) for a full explanation of how this works.

[titurel]

The brain-state known as catharsis is a temporarily state where the brain is wiped clean and the new suggestion is accepted. It is used by Christian fundamentalist preachers as a form of mind controlling their congregation



See this article here (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309) for a full explanation of how this works.
That is why people should get out of the Churches because she has become full of every fithy and unclean expression, seconded only to political institutions. The Church is full of reptilian, demonic beings.

[limelady]

That is why people should get out of the Churches because she has become full of every fithy and unclean expression, seconded only to political institutions. The Church is full of reptilian, demonic beings.

Indeed people ought to get out of the clutches of these fundamentalist churches, but its unlikely they will want to go. The following is from the same article I linked in my last post.....

Before I continue, let me point out something else about an
altered state of consciousness. When you go into an altered
state, you transfer into right brain dominance, which results in the internal release of the body's own opiates: encephalins and Beta-endorphins, chemically almost identical to opium.
In other words, it feels good . . . and you want to come
back for more.

Is it any wonder Christians go back and back to church to speak in "tongues"? They are getting their regular 'fix' of opiate brain drugs and they are obviously hopelessly addicted to them. :eek:

[titurel]

Indeed people ought to get out of the clutches of these fundamentalist churches, but its unlikely they will want to go. The following is from the same article I linked in my last post.....



Is it any wonder Christians go back and back to church to speak in "toungues"? They are getting their regular 'fix' of opiate brain drugs
and they are obviously hopelessly addicted to them. :eek:
People will not want to get out of the clutches of political institutions either, and that will be an even bigger problem once the elite have swept aside denominational religions to clear the decks for their global OWR, and OWG, which will lead to perdition. Many shall choose that route and it shall be very shocking.

People have jumped from the Churches and into the clutches of big business and big politics - out of the frying pan and into the fire. The Church was always been about that anyway. The vatican is a sovereign state with embassadors all over the world.

[deathstickboy]

Indeed people ought to get out of the clutches of these fundamentalist churches, but its unlikely they will want to go. The following is from the same article I linked in my last post.....



Is it any wonder Christians go back and back to church to speak in "tongues"? They are getting their regular 'fix' of opiate brain drugs and they are obviously hopelessly addicted to them. :eek:

They call it "being drunk on the spirit". ;)

[cheeb]

Did not anyone know,
That God is a programme,
To keep you enslaved,
Into a dubious mindset,
C'mon , this is the David Icke forum here,
Not the born again missionary.

Infiltrators.

POe
Pttb
I refer my freind to the answer i gave earlier,
Brainwashed,
Conditioned,
Hypnotised
Programmed,

The programme is working well,
in these chaps,
Even though they are here on this forum,
the programme overides sense.
But it is a programme that can be defeated,
Just takes a little time,,,

[titurel]

Artists and musicians are drunk with the spirit too!

We are living in the age where music and the arts are now being crucified. Mankind is growing cyncial and pathetic under the gloom and pending black clouds on the horizon. They blame it on creativity and art, so we loose the art because we don't deserve it. We get Maddona instead. I'm not saying that there is no art left, it's never been more brilliant.

Those who are drunk with power are more of a problem.

[fccool]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6557728021937371572&q=meeting+pope&total=144&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Papacy right now is the only out in your face Politico Religious power and it has always been so. It is funny that all of the protestant religion was just that... protesting Pope. Nothing has changed in Vatican (well, they don't kill as many people anymore, but beliefwise nothing essencially changed)... but the "protestantism" somehow forgotten what they were protesting :). No you see the video above. It's quite prophetic IMO. Why would any president meet with Pope? They have parades of world religions paying homage to Pope... why? Think about it...

This one always kills me WTF????:

Russian Army Choir - Tribute to Pope John Paul II.VI - YouTube

And this one makes me plain sick :D. I love when Hollywood pretentiously push spirituality.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Well, enough of that.

[titurel]

And world leaders are waiting for the word to pounce on the Harlot, who is dangerously riding the beast's back! They need to devour and cannabalise her power completely. The power of the Vatican will be subsumed into the beast in order to make way for the new one world religion, one world order of oness inside their matrix.

[cheeb]

Ok,
this is a bat and ball debate,
lets try to get to the bottom of it,
why choose jesus over muhammid,
why buddhist over sikh,#
why catholic over protestant,
life is full of choices and pathways,
titurel tell us the story of your youth,
the choices that you took,
the paths that you followed.
it will help us understand where you are today,
Are you at a good place,
Do you want to change,
Are you a better person,
Because you have dogma,
Is your beleif controlling you,
Or are you in charge,

Lots of questions,

What is the answer,

(Its within you ,by the way)#

[william_mac]

WOW!!!!!!!!! I would have never of thought in a million years someone would post something like this.

OK, real quick, I was raised up in a "non-denominational" charismatic church here in the south. The only really good quality was that it represented, without bias, over 60 nations from around the world. The music was good, the people were good, but as in any church environment certain cultural "must do" things arise, which is why I left. However, I was well respected in the church, and I was being raised up as a youth pastor before I learned of better things.

Anyway, as you and I probably both know the term, I was baptized in toungues around the age of 14. We were taught that what we were saying was a direct language to god. I used to speak in it all the time, but it's been a while.

when I read this post, I decided to speak in toungues, and I did, so it's obviously still there. But, really, I can't even BEGIN to understand toungues. I really can't. I can speak in it right now, and a lot of the people in the church could, but I really can't put my finger on it's meaning.

Although, just speaking it out just now, I know that there is some kind of power behind it.

What a grand post, though. Most people don't know about toungues!



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[william_mac]

In addition, I read some of the replies here. Look, guys and gals, you haven't experienced the things that I have experienced. Or, at least I'm sure MOST if not ALL of you have not.

The fact is that "tongues" is a very real thing. We went to Mexico once, when I was a pre-teen. When we got there we saw a lot of strange things, "witchcraft" is very prominent there. As far as their predominentely Catholic religion goes? Well, you should see the weird things they do.

Well, we were praying for a sick old lady in (I can't remember how to spell the name, it starts with an X but sounds like Shoot-shee-milk-o) and the old lady had these weird horns growing out of her back. Well, her family also invited a medicine guy there, this guy was wearing a like.... goat or some kind of skull on his head, he also had a goat skull on a stick, which actually smelled bad and looked rather fresh.

Anyway, well all of a sudden we got incredibly scared. We all decided to leave at once. At the end of the road of that particular town, past all of the dog shit on the ground, was a fence that pretty my enclosed the town. Well, we went through the fence and closed, we all of a sudden got the urge to pray in a circle. When we did this, and we were speaking in tongues, the gate opened. We heard a hissing/growling noise, and footsteps walking around his. Not just one, but several. Eventually we shouted it out, the gate closed, and we were fine. The lady's horns ended up dissapearing.

This is just one example in many. However, the reason I said this is to show the strange...power tongues have. I have long since left the church, and I can't bring myself to fully understand the power of the church and these things. Especially since I don't fully believe in these ideals. the only thing I can come up with is that a collective group of people who have another's well-being in mind can pray to any god in order to have that person healed, and it will work. The simple name of a god can have a "power" effect for a person, sort of a "go flag" for faith or energy.

Either way, point is, tongues are not some bullshit thing, not some illuminati thing, they're real, i can speak in them. I don't know what in the hell it is, I don't know if it's gibberish. The fact is, however, that you just can't speak gibberish and have it sound like "tongues". Everyone has a different sound, but it's so obvious that it isn't fabricated.

A friend of mine who went to Africa told me that there were some Americans that came there and began having a prayer meeting and were speaking in tongues, well, the African people (South Africa I think) understood what these kids were saying! Yet, the kids who were speaking in tongues didn't know what they were saying.

When I speak in tongues I don't know what I'm saying. I have a basis in my mind for my feelings coming out, but when speaking in tongues (which I can do whenever) I don't know what I'm saying. I always thought I sounded kind of Arabic or Germanic.

Either way, this stuff is true. I could actually speak in tongues and put it on the site as a recording i bet. I just need to borrow something from my producer, or I could do it on the web-cam.

I don't know though, I feel sort of.....blasphemous thinking about that. It's a very strange thing. If people want me to, though, then I will for the sake of demonstration and then I'll let you decide.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[james777]

.WOW!!!!!!!!! I would have never of thought in a million years someone would post something like this.


OK, real quick, I was raised up in a "non-denominational" charismatic church here in the south. The only really good quality was that it represented, without bias, over 60 nations from around the world. The music was good, the people were good, but as in any church environment certain cultural "must do" things arise, which is why I left. However, I was well respected in the church, and I was being raised up as a youth pastor before I learned of better things.

Anyway, as you and I probably both know the term, I was baptized in toungues around the age of 14. We were taught that what we were saying was a direct language to god. I used to speak in it all the time, but it's been a while.

Yes, for those of us that know and understand, we know that this 'tongues language' is a direct language to God and it's the language of our souls......Our physical bodies cannot understand it, although some people have the ability to interpret through the spirit.

The thing about most churches is that they claim this is something that you need to be baptized in to obtain. The scripture tells us differently. We know that when we confess our sins and get saved that the 'holy spirit' comes to dwell within us, our partner for life and all we need to do is ask for the heavenly language and God will give it to us. This is a way for us to pray to God in the most perfect way, without using our own physical, selfish, carnal minds. It allows us to re-charge our spirits and a great way to receive 'blessings' because this is the ultimate way to worship God the Creator.

when I read this post, I decided to speak in toungues, and I did, so it's obviously still there. But, really, I can't even BEGIN to understand toungues. I really can't. I can speak in it right now, and a lot of the people in the church could, but I really can't put my finger on it's meaning.

Although, just speaking it out just now, I know that there is some kind of power behind it.

I'm glad I reminded you of the power that the 'world' has fooled you into forsaking. You're absolutely right, it's real and it's powerful. Anyone who says it's 'gibberish' clearly has no comprehention of what it actually is, of course if they don't believe in God and have a real intimate relationship with him they'll say it's gibberish, fake and demonic. Trust me, tongues is not of the devil........

What a grand post, though. Most people don't know about toungues!





-William
www.William-Mac.com

[orgo knight]

As a kid I was made to go to pentecostal churches where speaking in tongues was a regular event.
I speak in tongues but am not sure if there's anything to it.I returned to church briefly as a young adult.I felt a distinct high when the congregation goes into praise and worship.
I left church many years ago which makes me an evil backslider.Having known the truth and turning away leaves me with the bleak prospect of having even redder and hotter pitchforks rammed up my backside for eternity:eek:

[fccool]

Mac, can you understand what you are speaking... when you indeed start speaking in tounges? If you do... can other people understand what you are saying? I don't rule out the fact, yet I don't see any Biblical basis for it. If you can show me, I'd be glad to learn about it. From what I've read, speaking in tounges had nothing to do with "heavenly language". In fact if you go through Bible, you won't find any "heavenly language" anywhere at any time. Angels and God communicated to people in their native language. What happened at pentacost as I have already demonstrated was people speaking in foreign languages so that they got the message from God ok. I did not see any evidence of them speaking in anything other that foreign languages in Acts 2.

So my question to you. How did you learn to speak in tounges. Who told you that you can do it? You did not just woke up one day and started to speak. My guess is that you went to a tounge speaking church and you spoke. Have you ever asked yourself these questions? How come in the church next door nobody speaks in tounges, or is it location bound phenomenon? Ever thought how come you can't understand other people when they speak in tounges? If you do understand them, then please describe the language. It is a set language right.... with constant lexicon and ability to be interpreted... If not, then it is simply collection of mindless blabber as Paul describes it in passage I shown you. PS... God is not something that you experience, because He is outside of our sences. Yes, I've seen crazy stuff too, I've been to New Hampshire at night :). But let's not get slippery slope here.... just because one exists does not mean the other has to be right too, especially if is backed by nothing other than your "experience". But I would like to read your answers to the above questions. I just want to let you know that I do respect your choice to believe in what you believe, I just give you reasons why I don't.

[james777]

As a kid I was made to go to pentecostal churches where speaking in tongues was a regular event.
I speak in tongues but am not sure if there's anything to it.I returned to church briefly as a young adult.I felt a distinct high when the congregation goes into praise and worship.
I left church many years ago which makes me an evil backslider.Having known the truth and turning away leaves me with the bleak prospect of having even redder and hotter pitchforks rammed up my backside for eternity:eek:

You do realize that you still have time and can get your life back to the way it was and better right? If you were just being sarcastic here....ouch!

Mac, can you understand what you are speaking... when you indeed start speaking in tounges? If you do... can other people understand what you are saying? I don't rule out the fact, yet I don't see any Biblical basis for it. If you can show me, I'd be glad to learn about it. From what I've read, speaking in tounges had nothing to do with "heavenly language". In fact if you go through Bible, you won't find any "heavenly language" anywhere at any time. Angels and God communicated to people in their native language. What happened at pentacost as I have already demonstrated was people speaking in foreign languages so that they got the message from God ok. I did not see any evidence of them speaking in anything other that foreign languages in Acts 2.



I'm not gonna answer his questions or even answer them from my perspective. I just would like to encourage you to read all of 'Paul's' writings because Acts 2 was when the 'Holy Spirit' came into our realm and is just a small example. There are many, many other instances where 'tongues' is spoken about and explained......once you understand these writings you'll see in a new 'light' the reason for 'tongues'.

'Tongues' can be used for/in many things/ways. Sometimes it can be a language of man and sometimes it's not. God works in mysterious ways. The important thing to remember here is that 'lucifer' does not want us to use and/or understand the power/concept of this, that's why there is SOOOOO much controversy surounding it......

[fccool]

You do realize that you still have time and can get your life back to the way it was and better right? If you were just being sarcastic here....ouch!



I'm not gonna answer his questions or even answer them from my perspective. I just would like to encourage you to read all of 'Paul's' writings because Acts 2 was when the 'Holy Spirit' came into our realm and is just a small example. There are many, many other instances where 'tongues' is spoken about and explained......once you understand these writings you'll see in a new 'light' the reason for 'tongues'.

'Tongues' can be used for/in many things/ways. Sometimes it can be a language of man and sometimes it's not. God works in mysterious ways. The important thing to remember here is that 'lucifer' does not want us to use and/or understand the concept of this, that's why there is SOOOOO much controversy surounding it......


James, theology and phylosophy was one of my forsaken majors in school... so believe you me I've poured hours upon hours studying this stuff, not exclusively Bible... but nevertheless I'm familiar with what it teaches and what it does not. I've read Paul's writings probably a couple thousand times. Exactly what I'm trying to tell you is that I can't find any solid proof for speaking in tounges that other people can not understand or interpret in any writings of Paul. Paul explicidly taught that tounges could be understood and interpreted... and therefore it is a set language and not something that comes and goes. I've already told you that I believe in speaking in tounges and that I speak four ;), and yes it is a powerful thing for other people to actually understand what you are saying. So far all I heard from you and mac is your personal experience. I can derive any set of believes from personal experience. So all I'm asking, if you claim that writings of Paul confirm what you believe is to present me some of those writings that you claim support your view on this subject. It's as simple as that. Can you do that, or is it the case of "somebody told me it was there, but I can't find it"? :D

[soltru]

in nz, the people of the nation of waitaha preserved ancient wisdom in songs and chants in maori language its called 'karakia'

[james777]

[/B]James, theology and phylosophy was one of my forsaken majors in school... so believe you me I've poured hours upon hours studying this stuff, not exclusively Bible... but nevertheless I'm familiar with what it teaches and what it does not. I've read Paul's writings probably a couple thousand times. Exactly what I'm trying to tell you is that I can't find any solid proof for speaking in tounges that other people can not understand or interpret in any writings of Paul. Paul explicidly taught that tounges could be understood and interpreted... and therefore it is a set language and not something that comes and goes. I've already told you that I believe in speaking in tounges and that I speak four ;), and yes it is a powerful thing for other people to actually understand what you are saying. So far all I heard from you and mac is your personal experience. I can derive any set of believes from personal experience. So all I'm asking, if you claim that writings of Paul confirm what you believe is to present me some of those writings that you claim support your view on this subject. It's as simple as that. Can you do that, or is it the case of "somebody told me it was there, but I can't find it"? :D

I'll be glad to get that information for you............stay tuned......

[cmdr_sabbathius]

I've never spoken in tongues, but I've been in Pentacostal churches when such has happened and I've FELT the spirits. Yes. I said spirits.

They say it's 'baptism of the holy spirit', but I'll say what I felt was anything BUT holy.

The words 'demonic possession' rapidly come to mind.

I'm not saying all the pentacostals are demonic, but I'd say some certainly are.

[james777]

I've never spoken in tongues, but I've been in Pentacostal churches when such has happened and I've FELT the spirits. Yes. I said spirits.

They say it's 'baptism of the holy spirit', but I'll say what I felt was anything BUT holy.

The words 'demonic possession' rapidly come to mind.

I'm not saying all the pentacostals are demonic, but I'd say some certainly are.

How can you praise God and be Demon possessed at the same time? That's like drinking a glass of cold, hot water.........

How would you know what 'demonic possession' feels like? Have you been possessed before or now?

[kasalt]

Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne carry on a conversation with each other in tongues:
Tongues - YouTube

Borat - Speaking in tongues
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland - Pentecostal Bedlam
Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland - Pentecostal Bedlam - YouTube
- "Drunk in the Spirit" and "Holy Laughter" ...no kidding folks, this is from an actual church service

[william_mac]

Mac, can you understand what you are speaking... when you indeed start speaking in tounges? If you do... can other people understand what you are saying? I don't rule out the fact, yet I don't see any Biblical basis for it. If you can show me, I'd be glad to learn about it. From what I've read, speaking in tounges had nothing to do with "heavenly language". In fact if you go through Bible, you won't find any "heavenly language" anywhere at any time. Angels and God communicated to people in their native language. What happened at pentacost as I have already demonstrated was people speaking in foreign languages so that they got the message from God ok. I did not see any evidence of them speaking in anything other that foreign languages in Acts 2.

So my question to you. How did you learn to speak in tounges. Who told you that you can do it? You did not just woke up one day and started to speak. My guess is that you went to a tounge speaking church and you spoke. Have you ever asked yourself these questions? How come in the church next door nobody speaks in tounges, or is it location bound phenomenon? Ever thought how come you can't understand other people when they speak in tounges? If you do understand them, then please describe the language. It is a set language right.... with constant lexicon and ability to be interpreted... If not, then it is simply collection of mindless blabber as Paul describes it in passage I shown you. PS... God is not something that you experience, because He is outside of our sences. Yes, I've seen crazy stuff too, I've been to New Hampshire at night :). But let's not get slippery slope here.... just because one exists does not mean the other has to be right too, especially if is backed by nothing other than your "experience". But I would like to read your answers to the above questions. I just want to let you know that I do respect your choice to believe in what you believe, I just give you reasons why I don't.

Before I answer this question, I would like to first stress that I was no Pentecostal. I never really agreed with them. They want women to keep their hair long, and men to keep it short, daddie da, it's just another denomination. Now, even though the church I "came up" in was a "non-denominational" church, that doesn't change the fact that it was pretty much a denomination. However, the poor bastards tried as hard as they could to remain without an affiliation and encourage "racial reconciliation", which, no matter what flag you fly over it, is a good thing in the South. For that, I commend them. However, they were human beings, and they developed an internal and rather oppresive thought process that was brought about by an unchecked administration or "leadership" which is common in any small or large society, after all "community is a synonym for government".

Alright, with that out of the way and off my mind, you're right. In the original biblical context speaking in tongues was simply an act in speaking in other languages. The church told me that tongues was a "heavenly language" and concerning my excitement for the post, well, that was because I haven't heard the term uttered in a very long time; it was nice to see it discussed.

However, the fact is that I can't, try as I may, understand what in the hell I have here. First and foremost, I will say that tongues is in no way an artificial thing, I know that. However, with my current mindset (the one that I developed) I can't make sense of it.

Concerning the question of whether or not I can understand the "tongues" in which i am able to speak, well... It's been a long time since I've even thought about it. However, I will say that I would feel something inside of myself, some passion or ambition, some yearning for something, and I would speak in tongues and associate my yearning with whatever I was speaking, but I could not understand the words that came out of my mouth.

But, as is common in a charismatic church, and I saw it ever since I was a "youngin'" there were multiple times in which a church congregation would grow incredibly quite. I knew, after about the second time I witnessed this, that this was a sign of something to come, and what was to come was always the same thing. Someone would inevitably stand up in the congregation and speak very loudly something in tongues. Then, a moment later, someone would get up from an entirely different point in the congregation and speak out something in english, which I was taught was the english translation of what the other man or woman originally spoke in tongues. This was never planned, this was never contrived, and the people always seemed to be in a sort of trance.

So my question to you. How did you learn to speak in tounges. Who told you that you can do it? You did not just woke up one day and started to speak. My guess is that you went to a tounge speaking church and you spoke. Have you ever asked yourself these questions? How come in the church next door nobody speaks in tounges, or is it location bound phenomenon? Ever thought how come you can't understand other people when they speak in tounges?

"learning" to speak in tongues is a scary thing. I was raised up, and I saw everyone doing it. Yet, I couldn't understand how they did it. The language in which a person speaks in tongues (real tongues) is so contrary to random gibberish that you really must understand that it is obviously something real. The way we were taught in the church to receive the gift of speaking in "tongues" or otherwise "baptised in the Holy Spirit and fire" is that we would willingly seek out the thing.

I remember that our youth group had gone to some... well, youth shindig. The sermon was on speaking in tongues, they asked people to come up who wanted to speak in tongues, so... I did. It was if you 'wanted' to do it. I'll tell you right now, that when hands were laid on me, that I just began speaking out this shit. I spoke it out and it is nothing that I could come up with myself. Over time, it actually developed into a more complex sounding language, I would make sounds that I didn't even think I could make. For example, when you learn Spanish you have to learn how to roll your "Rs", before "tongues" I could never do it. But I was doing it then, and I've been able to do it ever since.

As far as "the church next door", well, that all depends upon denomination, of course. Baptists, for example, believe that tongues were only for the apostles of Jesus, others believe that tongues are only for the holy annointed that convene directly with "god", still others believe that tongues will come later in the "end days". Really it all depends on the denomination.

As far as the "I can't understand other people when they speak in tongues" I couldn't. Tongues in our church was more of a personal thing. If someone was speaking in them, you just knew they were doing their "thing", so to speak. So it wasn't "hey! listen to me speak in tongues!" it was always rather personal.

If you do understand them, then please describe the language. It is a set language right.... with constant lexicon and ability to be interpreted... If not, then it is simply collection of mindless blabber as Paul describes it in passage I shown you.

It is sort of a set language. I noticed that all people who spoke in tongues had the basically same sounds coming out. Rolled "R" sounds, sort of a Hebrew 'ack" sound and a German type of "dorsh, deush, forsh la ka doish da la dey ka" type of sound (that was actually me trying to type it just then). So there was always a definite repeation, I think, but everyone's was somehow individual, if that makes sense.

PS... God is not something that you experience, because He is outside of our sences. Yes, I've seen crazy stuff too, I've been to New Hampshire at night :). But let's not get slippery slope here.... just because one exists does not mean the other has to be right too, especially if is backed by nothing other than your "experience". But I would like to read your answers to the above questions. I just want to let you know that I do respect your choice to believe in what you believe, I just give you reasons why I don't

I want you to also know that, once again, I don't understand tongues. I don't know if it's just some inbred thing, or if I'm just rolling off bullshit. I don't think it is, but at the same time I don't know. Also, like I said, until this post, I hadn't thought about it for a very long while, that part of my life is far gone.

As far as "God" is concerned. I don't think there is a one entity "god", and I haven't thought that for years. I think that we are "god", all is energy. When I left the church willingly, I began hearing a different, more soothing voice in my mind than that of the "god" I had previously served. I was told point blank about ETs, energy, and all that other shit I don't feel like naming. This was all BEFORE I read a book on it, before I researched it. I was taught that there is no right or wrong, I specifically remember being told "you don't have the authority to determine what is either right or wrong, the only obligation any human being has is to love to the best of that human's knowledge of what love is, and reject anything opposite. The fact is, that through this course, all knowledge will be revealed"

I was also instructed to throw away "like garbage" all that I had learned, because believe you me I thought I was going to hell at the time. So I did it, and thus began the course that brought me to where I am today, and where I continue to go.

I look at my church experience as necessary to even turn me on to this aspect of myself. If I had not gone through that point, started out pure, became corrupted by the denomination, and then came out a better person, then i would not be doing the things I am doing now.

However, the fact remains, I still don't understand a good bit of what I experienced. I don't understand why a 12-year-old girl can pick up a 25-year-old man by the collar of his shirt. I don't understand why one of my friends no longer has Sickle Cell Anemia, and another no longer has Pigeon Toe. I can't really give a rational explination. I know that the church was wrong in a lot, but I think it was probably a collection of minds and faiths and good energy directed towards the well-being of another person that did the healings I've witnessed. But as far as the "demon" manifistation, I don't know. As far as "tongues" I just don't know. What can I say?



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[fccool]

Will,

I appreciate your honesty. I would love to carry on this discussion, but it's 3:30 a.m :).

[deathstickboy]

However, the fact remains, I still don't understand a good bit of what I experienced. I don't understand why a 12-year-old girl can pick up a 25-year-old man by the collar of his shirt. I don't understand why one of my friends no longer has Sickle Cell Anemia, and another no longer has Pigeon Toe. I can't really give a rational explination. I know that the church was wrong in a lot, but I think it was probably a collection of minds and faiths and good energy directed towards the well-being of another person that did the healings I've witnessed. But as far as the "demon" manifistation, I don't know. As far as "tongues" I just don't know. What can I say?

Maybe take some time to study these concepts dealing with more interesting aspects of human consiousness outside of a spiritual/religious paradigm which leaves you completely uninformed as to what might really be going on.

[limelady]

The name of the 'language' that is known as speaking in tongues is called
Glossolalia.

The origin of the modern charismatic Christian concept of speaking in tongues is the miracle of Pentecost, recounted in the New Testament book of Acts, in which Jesus' apostles were said to be filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in languages foreign to themselves, but which could be understood by members of the linguistically diverse audience.

Glossolalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

O.K., well these days it seems that nobody really understands the language known as Glossolalia. Curious that its still so prevalent once people have been whipped into a religious frenzy. And for some ex-chruch members to be able to still speak this language after many years (flick into it as william has described), and having NEVER actually learnt to speak this language in the same way we learn to speak other languages, is indeed curious. Its almost like mind 'alters' have been created and can be accessed at will.

Imagine if 'tongues' is some sort of ET dialect now long forgotten, but still in our gene code? Even worse, imagine if glossolaliais is the reptilian language? What if lower 4th dimensional reptilian energies are taking the opportunity to manifest in the physical, using 'Pentecostal' type trances (see my previous post on this thread) as an opportunity to possess the unsuspecting. :eek:

I've always had a bad feeling about "tongues". It creeps me out. People in euphoric states and speaking glosslalia are giving their energy away to something they believe is God.....but is it God?

After reading Matt Delooze's material, I wouldn't be so sure. Could be another very cunning way to syphon spiritual energy by those who control humanity. :cool:

[lemonique]

I agree with everything you say on Glossolalia Lime Lady.
To be babbling in a 'language' that nobody understands doesn't make any sense to me at all. How much nicer to be talking in the language of your fellow Church goers.....where they have the opportunity to be able to learn things from what you say, and be able to reply, or whatever.
If I was moved to attend Church, it would be in the Spirit of Fellowship, so to have my fellow Church goers suddenly babbling nonsense would send me scurrying off home...never to return. I have to be honest here.
With Love
Lemonique

[garth]

You guys have just gotta see this, while it isn't a "speaking in tongues" type vid, it does show the great mind control techniques at work in some church's.

How Revivalist Preachers Work
If you'd like to see a revivalist preacher at work, there are probably several in your city. Go to the church or hall early and sit in the rear, about three-quarters of the way back. Most likely repetitive music will be played while the people come in for the service. A repetitive beat, ideally ranging from 45 to 72 beats per minute (a rhythm close to the beat of the human heart), is very hypnotic and can generate an eyes-open altered state of consciousness in a very high percentage of people. And, once you are in a relaxed "alpha" state, you are at least 25 times as suggestible as you would be in alert "beta" consciousness. The music is probably the same for every service, or incorporates the same beat, and many of the people will go into an altered state almost immediately upon entering the sanctuary. Subconsciously, they recall their state of mind from previous services and respond according to the post-hypnotic programming.

Watch the people waiting for the service to begin. Many will exhibit external signs of trance--body relaxation and slightly dilated eyes. Often, they begin swaying back and forth with their hands in the air while sitting in their chairs. Next, the assistant pastor will probably come out. He usually speaks with a pretty good "voice roll."

The Voice Roll Technique
A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by hypnotists when inducing a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom are highly trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point firmly in the minds of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were talking to the beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were emphasizing every word in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be delivered at the rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic effect.

Now the assistant pastor begins the "build-up" process. He induces an altered state of consciousness and/or begins to generate the excitement and the expectations of the audience. Next, a group of young women in "sweet and pure" chiffon dresses might come out to sing a song. Gospel songs are great for building excitement and INVOLVEMENT. In the middle of the song, one of the girls might be "smitten by the spirit" and fall down or react as if possessed by the Holy Spirit. This very effectively increases the intensity in the room. At this point, hypnosis and conversion tactics are being mixed, i.e. a message is introduced. And the result is the audience's attention span is now totally focused upon the communication while the environment becomes more exciting or tense.

Right about this time, when an eyes-open mass-induced alpha mental state has been achieved, they will usually pass the collection plate or basket. In the background, a 45-beat-per-minute voice roll from the assistant preacher might exhort, "Give to God . . . Give to God . . . Give to God . . ." And the audience does give. God may not get the money, but his already wealthy representative will.

Next, the fire-and-brimstone preacher will come out. He induces fear and increases the tension by talking about "the Devil," "going to Hell," or the forthcoming Armageddon.

In the last such rally I attended, the preacher talked about the blood that would soon be running out of every faucet in the land. He was also obsessed with a "bloody axe of God," which everyone had seen hanging above the pulpit the previous week. I have no doubt that everyone saw it--the power of suggestion given to hundreds of people in hypnosis assures that at least 10 to 25 percent would see whatever he suggested they see.

In most revivalist gatherings, "testifying" or "witnessing" usually follows the fear-based sermon. People from the audience come up on stage and relate their stories. "I was crippled and now I can walk!" "I had arthritis and now it's gone!" It is a psychological manipulation that works. After listening to numerous case histories of miraculous healings, the average guy in the audience with a minor problem is sure he can be healed. The room is charged with fear, guilt, intense excitement, and expectations.

Now those who want to be healed are frequently lined up around the edge of the room, or they are told to come down to the front. The preacher might touch them on the head firmly and scream, "Be healed!" This releases the psychic energy and, for many, catharsis results. Catharsis is a purging of repressed emotions. Individuals might cry, fall down or even go into spasms. And if catharsis is effected, they stand a chance of being healed. In catharsis the brain-slate is temporarily wiped clean and the new suggestion is accepted.

For some, the healing may be permanent. For many, it will last four days to a week, which is, incidentally, how long a hypnotic suggestion given to a somnambulistic subject will usually last. Even if the healing doesn't last, if they come back every week, the power of suggestion may continually over-ride the problem . . . or sometimes, sadly, it can mask a physical problem which could prove to be very detrimental to the individual in the long run.

I'm not saying that legitimate healings do not take place. They do. Maybe the individual was ready to let go of the negativity that caused the problem in the first place; maybe it was the work of God. Yet I contend that it can be explained with existing knowledge of brain/mind function.

The techniques and staging will vary from church to church. Many use "speaking in tongues" to generate catharsis in some while the spectacle creates intense excitement in the observers.
rest of post (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309)

John Safran (the guy in the vid) is a Australian T.V show reporter, he is Jewish. He had a series on SBS over here regarding religion. He is IMO a credible guy.

You just have to see this
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

[kasalt]

You guys have just gotta see this, while it isn't a "speaking in tongues" type vid, it does show the great mind control techniques at work in some church's.


rest of post (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309)

John Safran (the guy in the vid) is a Australian T.V show reporter, he is Jewish. He had a series on SBS over here regarding religion. He is IMO a credible guy.

You just have to see this
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUzXl-XFaUM)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN6wnr_q_pQ)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5oF6i8kFU4)

Funny how Bob Larson goes around casting demons out of everybody, and yet he hobnobs with the likes of George H.W. Bush, John Major and Mikhael Gorbachev, and in the first clip we hear him say, "I have never met anyone who impresses me more as a human being than Colon Powell." Apparently he doesn't think any of them are demon possessed. Ironic??

[chris]

Will Mac, have you ever wondered that the miracles done while speaking in tongues is a bit like a crutch for your faith? Like in 'space jam' when buggs bunny got water and said it was superjuice and it made them superstrong and they believed it so it worked.

Anyway, I tried speaking in tongues for a while last night...I think it gave my mouth a good exercise but I didn't feel much else.

[kasalt]

I'm just curious to see what ya'll think about 'speaking in tongues'. It's a way for our souls to communicate directly with God the Creator. It edifies/recharges our physical and spiritual senses. I know this to be true through experience.........

Does anyone here in fact 'speak in tongues'? Is anyone totally against it? I'm just curious to see how a forum full of 'spritual people feel about this......

Check this site out:

20th Century Tongues... Faith or Fake?
http://www.bible.ca/tongues.htm

[kasalt]

See famous Pentecostal preachers practice mass hypnotic induction, holy Laughter, slain in the spirit, animal sounds, spiritual amnesia, spiritual muteness, spiritual drunkenness, spontaneous movements:

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

[chris]

I think the way they rope you in is make you do absolutley ridiculously embarrasing and so it either must be true or they will feel even more stupid.

[seanx]

James 7777 wrote:

You do realize that you still have time and can get your life back to the way it was and better right?
Glad to see you still here, 'spreading the word' and still trying to
convert others over to your 'church'.

I'd love to know the real church you're promoting, but that's seems a
very-highly guarded secret.

Anyway, thank God for the information and insights provided by limelady
and Cheeb or some people might starting believing this nonsense.

[ashyr]

they seem to be saying "Have a bacardi have a shandy,"
very fast.

hahahahahahaha

one time i was freaking the hell out of a christian with the usual appose him with his flaws and holes in him he just started muttering under his breath at me. and i caught him out was like wtf u doing old man. choking on your tongue? lol he denied it. i was cracking up. listen u fuddy duddy trying to dispell my evil with your nutty chant aint going to do shit.

[fccool]

James,

I'm still tuned in... Did you find anything in Pauls writings that would support your position? Let me know.

[william_mac]

Will Mac, have you ever wondered that the miracles done while speaking in tongues is a bit like a crutch for your faith? Like in 'space jam' when buggs bunny got water and said it was superjuice and it made them superstrong and they believed it so it worked.

Anyway, I tried speaking in tongues for a while last night...I think it gave my mouth a good exercise but I didn't feel much else.

Tongues weren't used to perform miracles or anything. Like I said it was just something normal that people did. People would speak in tongues under their breath usually, or between saying normal words like people would fill in a space with "uhm" they would speak in tongues. Most oftenly it was never used for anything but a personal thing, and we were strictly instructed not to speak in tongues when around "demonic" manifestations.

So, when "miracles" were done, like people being healed, most of these times people were healed without anyone actually praying for them in an obviouse way. The guy (Zach) that was healed of Pigeon Toe was praying for his grandmother when he said "it felt like I was standing in front of a heater". The woman (Olivia) that had Sickle Cell Anemia was simply in a praise and worship service when she said "I just knew something was different" she later found her cells to be normal at the next doctor's visit.

So, from what I can remember, tongues was just such a normal thing. Unless, of course, you weren't able to do it. I remember always wanting to do it back then, and then I was finally "baptized" in the "spirit" or whatever.

But yeah, no one can really try to immitate tongues. It just won't work, you can always tell when it's fake, and you can always tell if it is you doing it instead. When you speak in this way, it just...comes out. You can do it at will, but it just flows right out of your mouth and you don't have any conscience thought of what syllable you will utter next. It's weird. It's like breathing, I mean i can't even talk as smoothly in English as I can in tongues.

By the way, I'm not a christain. I used to be a long time ago. But, I remember a lot of the experience, and relish it, but I don't have a "faith".



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[william_mac]

Maybe take some time to study these concepts dealing with more interesting aspects of human consiousness outside of a spiritual/religious paradigm which leaves you completely uninformed as to what might really be going on.

I've thought about it a lot. But I don't know what labels to give things. I can understand the healings, but I just don't know about the demonic manifestations. I just don't know what those entities are. Just like ghosts, I don't know what that is. I could come up with a lot of different labels and ideas, but none of them would really make 100% sense in my mind. Healing, on the other hand, makes perfect sense to me, since all life is energy then a strong conentration to positive energy could heal a person of nearly anything, that's even rather scientifically accepted.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[cheeb]

There must be some cunning linguist out there,
who can translate what they are saying?

seems like Double-Dutch to me!

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Rodney Howard-Brown him of the holy laughter church,

Check out Benny Hinn,

You really have got to laugh at these charlatans.

"cowabunga,um bongo, um gowah "my friend.

[william_mac]

See famous Pentecostal preachers practice mass hypnotic induction, holy Laughter, slain in the spirit, animal sounds, spiritual amnesia, spiritual muteness, spiritual drunkenness, spontaneous movements:

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm

Let me tell you about "spiritual" drunkenness "spontaneous movements" and what is called "holy laughter" and being "slain in the spirit". I'm sure there are people the replicate these things, but they're all COMPLETELY 100% true. I can attest.

The common misssconception among people who see others being "slain" in the spirit is that the person laying hands on them are pushing them back. I'm sure some fake folks do this, but it never happened to me. I've been "slain" in the spirit several times in my life, and it was beyond my control. If you are going up to be prayed for, at least in the church I attended, which was a church that tried as hard as they could to not be corrupted and they did a well enough job considering they were, well, a church; anyway, when you go up to have hands laid on you it is just for a nice gesture or blessing. You know? Like having someone wish you well, cook you a meal, or loan you a few bucks. Being prayed for was just another person laying his or her hands on you and imparting a blessing, they would say something like "bless [this person] and grant them the strength to" blah blah blah, do whatever.

Well, several times when I was prayed for I was not able to stand. One time I remember specifically trying to stand, but I just kept stumbling backwards, and I remember seeing myself in the third person, and the next thing I know I was waking up off the floor.

Being "slain" in the spirit feels like the best high you could ever think of, really. And when people lay hands on you, at least if they're not a flake, then they will do it very gently. My pastor made sure not to even barely touch us.

The "spontanious" movements are things i can also attest to. I have not had this happen to me personally, but it was common sense in the church I attended. My sister, who is 4 years older than me, and who is a very grounded and sceptical person, has had this happen to her while I was around her (we went to the same church). The most common movement I saw was people who were standing upright, who would be jerked down continuously in such rapid movements that it is obviouse they couldn't do it on their own. I mean, unless they had INCREDIBLY toned stomach muscles, hah hah, but none of these people ever said their stomachs hurt.

Sometimes these spontanious jerkings were so seemingly violent that people would not be able to get up or compose themselves. Sometimes they lasted as long as three days gradually becoming lighter. I always thought these things looked like they would be uncomfortable or that they would hurt, but my friends always said it was pleasant and didn't bother them.

"Holy Laughter" as you called it was common. Holy laughter was usually a very strange thing that happened all at once. The church I went to had over 2,000 members, so the youth group (212) was a big size, and that's where I spent most of my time. Well, this youth group, which I would say had about 300 people at any given time, would sometimes insanely errupt with laughter. It wasn't just one person doing it and another catching on, I mean it was ALL at once. You could tell the people who were laughing in reaction to the people, and those who were laughing beyond their control. It was always obviouse. Again, this is not something that was coaxed or incited, sometimes these things would happen during a sermon randomly, in which case we would just "yield" to whatever the "holy spirit" wanted to do.

I remember my pastors, especially my youth pastor, being VERY careful with this phenomina. He (Billy Humprey) never ran with it like it was his idea, he never tried to purposefully create an environment like this, he never told us to do it, he would only try his best to explain what HAD happened after it was all over, that is if he could explain it. By all accounts, he attempted to be as responsible and has down-to-earth as he could with these random and often times powerful things that would begin happening in mass.



-William

[william_mac]

I think the way they rope you in is make you do absolutley ridiculously embarrasing and so it either must be true or they will feel even more stupid.

In our church, we were never roped into these things. Not once. Most of the time in real situatins (not fake or incited situations) this spirtual phenomena would errupt in particular churches. I mean, you would have here a staunch Baptist church or something located in one of the most out-of-the-way places, and all of a sudden things would start happening. Most people wouldn't know what to do with the situations, and the pastors and staff (some of which would quite and leave) would have to figure it out and research it, and eventually they would just.... let it happen.

We used to take trips to Brownseville, Florida because of a nationwide revival that had happened there, at that time it was like 5 years in the running. Anyway, that place started out the same way, and then people caught wind, and other churches found out, so people began coming from all over. The same thing happened with our church, this shit just started happening.

However, it is true that there are a lot of "flakes" as we called them that just ruin it for the everyone else. I mean, when this revival spirtual shit begins happening, no one really knows what to do. But then you get these crazy folks coming in there and waving flags around or being fake and "flakey" I mean, they're just stupid. You also get people who feel left out if some the spirtual shit doesn't happen to them, so they start going around falsely speaking in tongues, laying hands on people, faking other spirtual stuff. You get false prophets, you get money seeking false pastors. You get all that, and I think that is where the whole missunderrstanding from the outside spectrum comes from.

It's important to take it from someone who was there. A lot of these people are caught off guard by what happenes, then you get the jealous flaky people that want to come and have all the "cool" spiritual stuff happen to them, and then you're infiltrated and fucked on every side by dumbass flakes. Then you have those same people, who are people that look very anyone emulating these "spirtual"happenings, and they're the ones following those crazy mother fuckers on the TV.

All of this stuff is real, but you're going to have fakes.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[william_mac]

There must be some cunning linguist out there,
who can translate what they are saying?

seems like Double-Dutch to me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mqkt7nHong&mode=related&search=

Rodney Howard-Brown him of the holy laughter church,

Check out Benny Hinn,

You really have got to laugh at these charlatans.

"cowabunga,um bongo, um gowah "my friend.

I've never heard tongues sound like that, it's too... I don't know, cut apart. It usually flows out continuously with nobreaks between words. Lots of rolling Rs and "ack" sounds and stuff.

I should maybe record a little video and put it up here of me doing it shortly. I just feel rather odd about actually doing it.

Again, I just want to stress, I don't speak in "tongues" anymore on my own time, I haven't in years since I read this post and went "oh yeah!". Also, again, I don't know what it is. Those guys were fakers though. You can always tell when the person is faking. The fact is, that regardless of what tongues actually is, there is a power behind it, and people notice it if you're really doing it.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[phoebe]

Beautiful Glossolaria:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ygHBv2CZ3PY

[john white]

How can you praise God and be Demon possessed at the same time? That's like drinking a glass of cold, hot water.........


I'm suprised at you for that one James, after all you oppose "Churchianity" and what have those fear mongering preachers ever done inbetween buggering small boys?

Its not what is said: Its where it is said from

Thought you'd have learned that by now, its perfectly possible to praise God, and to channel praising God, and be entirely selfishly motivated to do so. Predators need a readily available food source after all

[william_mac]

I'm suprised at you for that one James, after all you oppose "Churchianity" and what have those fear mongering preachers ever done inbetween buggering small boys?

Its not what is said: Its where it is said from

Thought you'd have learned that by now, its perfectly possible to praise God, and to channel praising God, and be entirely selfishly motivated to do so. Predators need a readily available food source after all

There are a lot of versus and things in the Bible that I like, that's because it's easy to recognize symbolism in it. One verse that goes a long with what you're saying, sort of, is something like "In the end days people will come to me and I will say 'depart for I do not know you' and they will plead 'but lord, we've cast out demons in your name, we've healed the sick in your name, we've raised the dead in your name'" something like that, what I said should be very similar. Anyway, and you think, well hell if people are casting out demons, raising the dead and healing the sick in the guy's name, then why is he fucking saying "depart for I do not know you". It's a great verse to apply to people who either honestly believe that they are doing great works by doing these things, but are really missleading people, or for people who are using these spirtual things in order for personal gain.

Billy, the youth pastor I mentioned, he used to say "God can work through a corrupt man or a corrupt preacher, because even though that man is corrupt, the people are still benefiting" and I think that is somewhat true. Even people that started out thinking about others, but started "stealing the tithe money" so to speak, can continue emulating spiritual goodness even if that person has become selfish.



-William

[seanx]

Billy, the youth pastor I mentioned, he used to say "God can work through a corrupt man or a corrupt preacher, because even though that man is corrupt, the people are still benefiting

Sounds like Billy was covering his tracks to me!

[james777]

James,

I'm still tuned in... Did you find anything in Pauls writings that would support your position? Let me know.

Hey fccool, I'm getting the information together.....I'll be posting it soon..........

I'm suprised at you for that one James, after all you oppose "Churchianity" and what have those fear mongering preachers ever done inbetween buggering small boys?

Its not what is said: Its where it is said from

Thought you'd have learned that by now, its perfectly possible to praise God, and to channel praising God, and be entirely selfishly motivated to do so. Predators need a readily available food source after all

John, I don't really understand what you're saying here....unless you're referring to people that are 'fake' when it comes to worshipping or praising God......

[william_mac]

Sounds like Billy was covering his tracks to me!


Hah hah, I actually thought about that after I posted. I said "somebody is going to say he's covering his trax".



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[cheeb]

Oh Your God!!!

I just found a video of Benny Hinn,

One of the foremost Pentecostals in the U.S.and A

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FxIEaJXSPmA

The bloke is hillarious,

You take this seriously.

Saints preserve us!!!LOL

[kasalt]

Let me tell you about "spiritual" drunkenness "spontaneous movements" and what is called "holy laughter" and being "slain in the spirit". I'm sure there are people the replicate these things, but they're all COMPLETELY 100% true. I can attest.

The common misssconception among people who see others being "slain" in the spirit is that the person laying hands on them are pushing them back. I'm sure some fake folks do this, but it never happened to me. I've been "slain" in the spirit several times in my life, and it was beyond my control. If you are going up to be prayed for, at least in the church I attended, which was a church that tried as hard as they could to not be corrupted and they did a well enough job considering they were, well, a church; anyway, when you go up to have hands laid on you it is just for a nice gesture or blessing. You know? Like having someone wish you well, cook you a meal, or loan you a few bucks. Being prayed for was just another person laying his or her hands on you and imparting a blessing, they would say something like "bless [this person] and grant them the strength to" blah blah blah, do whatever.

Well, several times when I was prayed for I was not able to stand. One time I remember specifically trying to stand, but I just kept stumbling backwards, and I remember seeing myself in the third person, and the next thing I know I was waking up off the floor.

Being "slain" in the spirit feels like the best high you could ever think of, really. And when people lay hands on you, at least if they're not a flake, then they will do it very gently. My pastor made sure not to even barely touch us.

The "spontanious" movements are things i can also attest to. I have not had this happen to me personally, but it was common sense in the church I attended. My sister, who is 4 years older than me, and who is a very grounded and sceptical person, has had this happen to her while I was around her (we went to the same church). The most common movement I saw was people who were standing upright, who would be jerked down continuously in such rapid movements that it is obviouse they couldn't do it on their own. I mean, unless they had INCREDIBLY toned stomach muscles, hah hah, but none of these people ever said their stomachs hurt.

Sometimes these spontanious jerkings were so seemingly violent that people would not be able to get up or compose themselves. Sometimes they lasted as long as three days gradually becoming lighter. I always thought these things looked like they would be uncomfortable or that they would hurt, but my friends always said it was pleasant and didn't bother them.

"Holy Laughter" as you called it was common. Holy laughter was usually a very strange thing that happened all at once. The church I went to had over 2,000 members, so the youth group (212) was a big size, and that's where I spent most of my time. Well, this youth group, which I would say had about 300 people at any given time, would sometimes insanely errupt with laughter. It wasn't just one person doing it and another catching on, I mean it was ALL at once. You could tell the people who were laughing in reaction to the people, and those who were laughing beyond their control. It was always obviouse. Again, this is not something that was coaxed or incited, sometimes these things would happen during a sermon randomly, in which case we would just "yield" to whatever the "holy spirit" wanted to do.

I remember my pastors, especially my youth pastor, being VERY careful with this phenomina. He (Billy Humprey) never ran with it like it was his idea, he never tried to purposefully create an environment like this, he never told us to do it, he would only try his best to explain what HAD happened after it was all over, that is if he could explain it. By all accounts, he attempted to be as responsible and has down-to-earth as he could with these random and often times powerful things that would begin happening in mass.



-William

Did you ever stop to ask yourself why it is that God can put His hand on someone's forehead to push them back to the floor, but He apparently cannot (or will not) put His other hand on their backside to catch them before they hit the floor, and save them from risking injury to their backs?

I personally know of one young woman who sustained a serious back injury when she went up to the front of a church to be prayed for and was suddenly "slain in the spirit". She felt a hand on her forehead push her back when there was no one around her, and when she fell back, no one was there to catch her. I don't know what became of her because she quit attending that church soon after this happened, and in the course of time, so did I.

And then there's spontaneous movements. Spontaneous movements??? What good are they? Where's the scripture for that? Who the hell needs them?

All this just goes to prove that sheeple will believe absolutely ANYTHING.

Benny Hinn - Master of Suspense
Benny Hinn - Master of Suspense - YouTube

[william_mac]

Did you ever stop to ask yourself why it is that God can put His hand on someone's forehead to push them back to the floor, but He apparently cannot (or will not) put His other hand on their backside to catch them before they hit the floor, and save them from risking injury to their backs?

I personally know of one young woman who sustained a serious back injury when she went up to the front of a church to be prayed for and was suddenly "slain in the spirit". She felt a hand on her forehead push her back when there was no one around her, and when she fell back, no one was there to catch her. I don't know what became of her because she quit attending that church soon after this happened, and in the course of time, so did I.

And then there's spontaneous movements. Spontaneous movements??? What good are they? Where's the scripture for that? Who the hell needs them?

All this just goes to prove that sheeple will believe absolutely ANYTHING.

Benny Hinn - Master of Suspense
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9U_lWmAsYM

I'm not attempting to explain the things that happened, I'm just telling you what happened, and that's all. Again, as I've tried to state in all of my other responses on this thread, I'm not a Christain. I don't go to church, I don't believe in a one God entity, and I also don't believe that barely anything the bible says is historical fact. The bible is largely a fable. Therefore as far as what the scriptures support in this, there is nothing.

I don't have an explination. This has nothing to do with Benny Hinn, I don't know why so many people on this thread are bringing him up; I haven't even mentioned him until now.

I'm just trying to get people to understand that I was in this shindig, back in the day, and I witnessed these things first hand. They happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I don't know why, I don't know what point there was, and as I look back on it it was largely just a bunch of overly emotional people who were always trying to explain the shit. I think that's where a lot of the problems came from, was the fact that everyone was always trying to give some rational or reasonable exlination as to what was going on. In the churhc, of course, they would always try to relate it to the christain god, but these same things happen to other religions or cultures.

So, I'm not trying to defend what goes down. In fact, I've stated on this thread everytime that I just don't know what to think, feel, or label this stuff as. I'm just telling you what happened. These things happened, they weren't vouluintary, and they weren't manufactured or coaxed into being. They just happened. Why? I don't know.

I don't attempt to figure it out. The only thing I personally can think of is that it was a large group of people concentrating on something spirtual that created energy or something. However, I can't say that for a fact because I saw so many other weird things that don't align with it.

Either way, I don't believe it was good or bad, I don't really know what the benefit was at all. But, it happened. And, in all reality, it was not only weird, but it was also rather cool to witness. What can I say about it? I don't know.

I just want people here to know that this stuff isn't just manufactured and it isn't hype, and it isn't bullshit. Maybe some of those TV guys do that, but what I saw and what I was involved in for about five years (about 10 years old to 14 or 15, something like that) just broke out randomly, and it was beyond anyone's control.

I will say this, I remember that the more people tried to lablel it, figure it out, explain it, and so forth, the more it drifted away... and it eventualy left. Then people purposely tried to get all this stuff back, but they couldn't

It was a weird time in my life, but it happened.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[william_mac]

I'm not attempting to explain the things that happened, I'm just telling you what happened, and that's all. Again, as I've tried to state in all of my other responses on this thread, I'm not a Christain. I don't go to church, I don't believe in a one God entity, and I also don't believe that barely anything the bible says is historical fact. The bible is largely a fable. Therefore as far as what the scriptures support in this, there is nothing.

I don't have an explination. This has nothing to do with Benny Hinn, I don't know why so many people on this thread are bringing him up; I haven't even mentioned him until now.

I'm just trying to get people to understand that I was in this shindig, back in the day, and I witnessed these things first hand. They happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I don't know why, I don't know what point there was, and as I look back on it it was largely just a bunch of overly emotional people who were always trying to explain the shit. I think that's where a lot of the problems came from, was the fact that everyone was always trying to give some rational or reasonable exlination as to what was going on. In the churhc, of course, they would always try to relate it to the christain god, but these same things happen to other religions or cultures.

So, I'm not trying to defend what goes down. In fact, I've stated on this thread everytime that I just don't know what to think, feel, or label this stuff as. I'm just telling you what happened. These things happened, they weren't vouluintary, and they weren't manufactured or coaxed into being. They just happened. Why? I don't know.

I don't attempt to figure it out. The only thing I personally can think of is that it was a large group of people concentrating on something spirtual that created energy or something. However, I can't say that for a fact because I saw so many other weird things that don't align with it.

Either way, I don't believe it was good or bad, I don't really know what the benefit was at all. But, it happened. And, in all reality, it was not only weird, but it was also rather cool to witness. What can I say about it? I don't know.

I just want people here to know that this stuff isn't just manufactured and it isn't hype, and it isn't bullshit. Maybe some of those TV guys do that, but what I saw and what I was involved in for about five years (about 10 years old to 14 or 15, something like that) just broke out randomly, and it was beyond anyone's control.

I will say this, I remember that the more people tried to lablel it, figure it out, explain it, and so forth, the more it drifted away... and it eventualy left. Then people purposely tried to get all this stuff back, but they couldn't

It was a weird time in my life, but it happened.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

Concerning when people fell backwards, in my church they had "catchers". People would stand behind people that were being prayed for in case they could no long stand, if that happened then the people behind them simply let them down easy.

Some people would not be able to stand, and other people wouldn't. It only happened to me a few times, other people it would happen to all of the time. Later on people would fake it, but it didn't start out that way, that was just after all the weird flakey folks came in.

[cheeb]

Now that is what i would call ,
a classic case of backpedalling,
or a cop out,

[william_mac]

Now that is what i would call ,
a classic case of backpedalling,
or a cop out,

Shut the fuck up. I dare you to go back and find a single post in which I cited that I was a christian, that I believed and practiced Christianity in my modern day life. I dare you to go back and quote to me where I say that I that I currently consider myself a practioner of the faith.

I never once fucking said it. I said at the end of every response that I in fact didn't know what happened, that I am not a Christian, but that it happened.

Don't talk shit to me concerning this. I don't fucking backpedal. Savvy?



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[cheeb]

you are on the defence,
I have the higher ground,
You will lose this argument,
You must have played chess before,
It's a gentlemans game,
No need for Agression!!!

[william_mac]

you are on the defence,
I have the higher ground,
You will lose this argument,
You must have played chess before,
It's a gentlemans game,
No need for Agression!!!

No, screw you. Back up your claim and then we can see who "looses" the argument. Come on, fucking back it up. I'm a respectful person, and a gentleman, but I can tell a piss ant with a big mouth right away.

You have the higher ground? Like I said, go back in the thread, and fucking BACK UP YOUR CLAIM.

Don't screw with me like that, or anyone for that matter.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[cheeb]

Hah hah, I actually thought about that after I posted. I said "somebody is going to say he's covering his trax".



-William
www.William-Mac.com

Here you go then,
like I said backpeddaling,

Dont worry about it,
We all do it,
It,s called being human,
and having flaws,

[fccool]

you are on the defence,
I have the higher ground,
You will lose this argument,
You must have played chess before,
It's a gentlemans game,
No need for Agression!!!

What are you going to accomplish by "winning" an argument on the internet :)? I should send you a 25 cents so you can buy yourself a medal at least. Grow up.

[william_mac]

Here you go then,
like I said backpeddaling,

Dont worry about it,
We all do it,
It,s called being human,
and having flaws,

That is not an example of backpedaling, friend. I posted up that quote, and I literally thought to myself "Boy, sounds like he's covering his tracks" and then I laughed at the irony of it by posting that response. Out of all the HUGE posts I wrote here throughout this entire thread, you pick a one liner like that and twist it and tweak it.

Look, I don't know how you were raised, but god help me I'm a southern man. When someone decides to make such an unfounded claim such as yours, then they get the heat for it. Alright? Besides that, I'm a champion debater, a professional paid journalist, a very well educated citizen, and well versed in rhetoric. Don't think you can cross me by making a false claim like that.

Can you really blame me for getting pissed? You're being arrogant, and ignorant. You can't find any proof to back up your claim, so you take a one liner that doesn't even correspond with what you said.

I'm going to calm down now. I want to apologize for getting so angry. But you have to understand, if I were to pull that shit on somebody then I would be beaten blue by now. You just don't do that, ESPECIALLY when you have no back-up.

If you had said what you said and I could have seen some basis for it, this would be a different situation. However, I know for a fact that there is no basis. So keep that in mind, I sure as hell hope you don't lip like that to people outside of an online forum. Phew.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[cheeb]

just sharpening up,
no ill will meant by it,
send cash donations,
to Lifeboats please,
They need it more than me!!!

[limelady]

Hi william

I really appreciated your honesty and all you wrote of your early church experiences. I'm sure others did too, so I just wanted to thankyou for sharing all that with us.

LL :D

[william_mac]

just sharpening up,
no ill will meant by it,
send cash donations,
to Lifeboats please,
They need it more than me!!!

You're good stock. I just get a tad snappy when I'm confronted with an allegation like that. I want you to know I'm not really angry, I just use harsh language. Sort of a sailor dialect, if you will.



-William
www.William-Mac.com

[kasalt]

I'm not attempting to explain the things that happened, I'm just telling you what happened, and that's all...I'm just trying to get people to understand that I was in this shindig, back in the day, and I witnessed these things first hand. They happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I don't know why...These things happened, they weren't vouluintary, and they weren't manufactured or coaxed into being. They just happened. Why? I don't know.

It's called mass hypnosis, mass psychosis...I like to call it the "sheeple effect". In other words, its psychological. When you get people of faith together who are open to any sort of bazaar manifestations, pandemonium is bound to ensue. In other words, these people are literally psyching themselves out through the power of their own faith.

"Hypnosis", Wikipedia:
Influencing the crowds of common longings and yearnings by a demagogue is called mass hypnosis. Generally, mass hypnosis is applied to religious sessions. Many forms of music and dance can be used to create religious trance.


But let me inject a word of warning here: If you think you can attend such a training and not be affected, you are probably wrong. A perfect example is the case of a woman who went to Haiti on a Guggenheim Fellowship to study Haitian Voodoo. In her report, she related how the music eventually induced uncontrollable bodily movement and an altered state of consciousness. Although she understood the process and thought herself above it, when she began to feel herself become vulnerable to the music, she attempted to fight it and turned away. Anger or resistance almost always assures conversion. A few moments later she was possessed by the music and began dancing in a trance around the Voodoo meeting house. A brain phase had been induced by the music and excitement, and she awoke feeling reborn. The only hope of attending such gatherings without being affected is to be a Buddha and allow no positive or negative emotions to surface. Few people are capable of such detachment.

Brainwashing Techniques- MUST READ!!
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309

[mariag]

No, it's describing a quite literal act. They were heard and seen by many when they first received the 'Holy Spirit'.

How do you know it's 'utter gibberish'? Have you taken part and been filled with the 'Holy Spirit'? Or is this just your opinion?

when i was younger i had a friend that was a member of a christian sect and once i joined her in a meeting , but i ran off , cauze what happened was this.
The "priest" or pastor , started holding the mass and he asked everyone to join hand and he sort of used his mind when speaking to manipulate the members of his parish and all of a sudden they all went funny , started talking gibberish and theire eyes where like if they was under a so called trance , the feeling was really weired and got scared , never spoke to that girl again .
I think this "tounge language" is all crap , just a way of manipulating the parish to make them do what you want them to do , and it makes them feel great ,...
It is , well i just dont like it at all ,im totaly against it due to my experiences.

[deathstickboy]

"Speaking in Tongues" and all that other bullshit which is performed by Pentacostal and Charismatic churches, has its roots in America, not in the Bible. The Quakers, Shakers, and "Holly Rollers" were all Christian Cults which started in America, and none of their practices of being "drunk on the spirit" and such have any connection to anything in the bible, or to anything else in christianity for that matter. All the sects that startedt it are less than 250 years old, and so are such practices as far as Christianity goes.

[cheeb]

The Pentecostal Church,
get up to all sorts of mischeif,
They even pass around snakes,
And yes, their are fatalities!

Snake Handling Church Service - YouTube

[fccool]

The Pentecostal Church,
get up to all sorts of mischeif,
They even pass around snakes,
And yes, their are fatalities!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhvOeNCKhs

If you pick up any Bible you will find this...

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))
9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


So early manuscripts did not have these passages that these people are ussing to support their assertion. These were written in later. Linguists agree that these do not follow same language pattern of original writer's Greek... so these were not written by the same person. Something to think about.

[william_mac]

It's called mass hypnosis, mass psychosis...I like to call it the "sheeple effect". In other words, its psychological. When you get people of faith together who are open to any sort of bazaar manifestations, pandemonium is bound to ensue. In other words, these people are literally psyching themselves out through the power of their own faith.

"Hypnosis", Wikipedia:





Brainwashing Techniques- MUST READ!!
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309

I'm trying to tell you that nobody was open to this, nobody knew about it my church. Absolutely no one, and then one day stuff broke out.

Look, those church leaders weren't smart enough or had the personality to conduct any mass hypnosis, and nobody was open to it.

It really isn't man made. Genuine things like this happen all the time, I don't think it has anything to specifically do with the bible or the Christain God either. Perhaps I'll write an essay on the whole ordeal for you guys.



-William

[william_mac]

The Pentecostal Church,
get up to all sorts of mischeif,
They even pass around snakes,
And yes, their are fatalities!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhvOeNCKhs

Those aren't pentecostals...those are just weird hillbilly "snake handlers".

All of you people are really uneducated in christain denominations, hah hah. But, that's because you probably don't really care. But it's important to know about stuff like this so there are no missunderstandings.



-William

[james777]

Sorry it's taken me this long to get back to this thread, but last time I was here I was asked to prove that tongues is a heavenly language and not 'gibberish'.

1 Corinthians 14:2

2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

This is Paul telling the church of Corinth about the language of 'tongues'. Here he is saying that no one will understand it but God, which is implying that it's a heavenly language.

[cheeb]

What a shame James777,
that when you answer to this its gonna be post, 666,
in your reply,
Maybe you might read summat into that,
Serpent handlers,
In the Jesus fearing crowd,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vMP-CQ_bvSM

[fccool]

Sorry it's taken me this long to get back to this thread, but last time I was here I was asked to prove that tongues is a heavenly language and not 'gibberish'.

1 Corinthians 14:2

2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

This is Paul telling the church of Corinth about the language of 'tongues'. Here he is saying that no one will understand it but God, which is implying that it's a heavenly language.

James this is one verse that you take out of context of the chapter. I appreciate your insight, but let's read the chapeter (again) to understand what's going on. Why should we understand the context of the passage before we jump to rush conclisions... well I could take

Exodus 21:17
Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

or

Exodus 22:19
Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

or even

Exodus 31:15
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

And I can take these three verses... take a loaded gun and go on a shooting spree saying that God told me to do it. But the fact is... you have to understand the historical precedents and contextand read quite a bit before you make a conclusion.

So let's again look at the entire chapter and see what's going on here. I won't cut and paste the entire thing, but I'll pont out the key verses... so hopefully it will make some sence.

What was the historical context of Acts 2, and what purpose did it serve? The apostles gathered togeth with people listening from different countries, so there was a communication barrier. Gift of tongues gave people ability to supernaturaly transcend that barrier so that the people present will be able to UNDERSTAND IT. So understanding is a issue at center in the 1st corinthians 14. Check it out.



1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

We'll get back to this verse. But observe that prophesying is at the forefront here... not speaking in tounges. In fact it's saying something of the matter:

Look for Love, and look for spiritual gifts so that you can understand and explain the nature and ways of God (prophesying in essence is not predicting future in this context)... becaue he that speakes in unkown language (unknown to the present congregation) only speaks to God... because people around him can not understand him (because they don't speak that language) so what he is saying in spirit is mystery to everyone else around.

How in the world did I come to that conclusion? Well, let's read on :)


3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Why? Because people can understand what he is saying.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Why? What's the difference? In the first case... speaking in unknown to congregation tongues (languages) people can not understand... so person only uplifts himself. In second case, person is benefitial for all as his ideas can be understood.

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

It's pretty clear that Paul here is teaching that he would rather people expounding on understanding, rather than blabber something nobody can understand. But Paul makes an exception... only if people enterpret what is being said.

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Basically he is saying the same thing. It makes no difference if you blabber noncense that nobody can understand. It's like playing an instrument without knowing how to play it. It just makes bunch of noise.


7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Once again, the same context here. Note verse 9. If you utter words that are not understood you are just speaking into air.

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Once again here is the context of the FOREIGN LANGUAGE that shows up again. If the person is speaking in "barbarian" language he is viewed as barbarian by those who do not understand, unless he interprets it... then it becomes something of significance.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Same here, if you are praying in tongues... and you don't understand what you are saying.... what difference does it make? It's better to do it in both spirit and understanding by doing so in language that you understand.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Same issue here at hand. How are the people around you UNDERSTAND? Aparently Paul makes a clear case for understanding.



18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Here Paul makes a clear case against speaking in tongues, saying that he would rather speak 5 words of understanding than 10000 in unknown language.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

What is the context here once again? Is it the angelic tongues? No... with MEN of other tongues. God has no need for us to communicate with angels because they seem to understand our language pretty well, and he sure well understands what we are saying.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

No here's a key passage here... Tongues are a singn.... for who? For those who do not believe. It meant to be a miraculous happening. Imagine somebody who thinks that there's no way he could possibly speak your language... and all of a sudden he speaks it fluently. That's exaclty what happened in Acts 2. Read it again. Those people were amazed... and therefore the message got across. If they did not understand what was being said, then what purpose would it serve? None. God's purpose is to reach to people.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

And that's exacly what's happening. People would come in and jet out thinking you the people are crazy. They base their experience based on that one occasion and they won't come back. I don't blame them, because I don't think I would either... and I don't :).

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

But if you speak things that people can reasonably UNDERSTAND. Then people might acknowledge God as creator... in essence that's what worship is... it's not singing and jumping around... it's knowledge of something that changes your mind and the way you view this world.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

everything should be done to buld up

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If you do want to speak in another language... then it's clear here that it should be done in groups of 3 MAX :), and one or two should enterpret what's being said. But if there's no interpreter. Then let that person KEEP SILENT :) in public, and he can do whatever he wants on his own. The idea of collective church tongue praying and speaking is foreign to what Paul had in mind.


29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Same with those who claim to have understanding. These should take turn speaking, while others evaluate/learn.


33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Here's the central theme. By speaking something that confuses others is not of God. God is not author of confusion, but order and peace.



39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order.


It should not be forbidden to speak in foreign languages either if it is genuine... but has to be done within above described guidelines. Which are... spoken in groups of 3 max. Has to be interpreted by others who understand that language.

So, let's get back to your original verse that you use for your support.


1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Verse 2 here is simply an explanation of verse 1 :). How so? I'll go over it again.

1) Look (follow) after love (charity), and look for gifts of the spirit... so that you can explain wisdom of God (prophesy)...

why?

2) Because he who speaks in unknown language speaks not to men (because no one can understand him) but to God (who can understand) ... and therefore what spirit is speaking is a mystery (to whom is it a mystery? to other people around of course).

BUT :)

3) "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort"... which leads me to conclude that he that does not... does not speak for comfort and edification.

So, I'm sorry James. I think you've missed the point of the verse. This entire chapte is in fact a clear case of making a case against speaking in tounges as much as possible. Peace.

[cheeb]

Is this what they call dogma,
A very polite name for brainwashing,
A set of rules,
With no foundation,
Rules for rules sake!!!

[bigus_dickus]

Is this what they call dogma,
A very polite name for brainwashing,
A set of rules,
With no foundation,
Rules for rules sake!!!

it is called law, a dogma is the foundation of law.

[carlg1212]

Acts 2

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

I'm just curious to see what ya'll think about 'speaking in tongues'. It's a way for our souls to communicate directly with God the Creator. It edifies/recharges our physical and spiritual senses. I know this to be true through experience.........

Does anyone here in fact 'speak in tongues'? Is anyone totally against it? I'm just curious to see how a forum full of 'spritual people feel about this......


It's funny because Icke and others bash religion, but the texts were most certainly re-written over the thousands of years by the illuminated ones, to make ANY talk of religion/spirituality appear to be non-sense, exactly what they wanted in the first place.

And in the end, Icke says "Infinite love is the only truth", almost exactly what Jesus, etc. said. While Icke says Jesus, Mohammed, Zoroaster, etc. were fabricated because their stories are similar/identical, he doesn't consider they were certainly the same entity, acting at different times. The Bible, Torah, Talmud, etc. were certainly re-written by the "illuminated ones"...they can't have love, peace, unity, etc.

These texts were re-written to perpetuate war, death and destruction.

There was a reason the Great Library of Alexandria was burned down. Can't have knowledge passed. That's dangerous.

[fccool]

Is this what they call dogma,
A very polite name for brainwashing,
A set of rules,
With no foundation,
Rules for rules sake!!!

Isn't what you are engaging in right now? No rules for no rules sake, which in effect is another dogma and a form of brainwashing :). Is presenting your ideas on a subject concidered to be a form of brainwashing? Icke is using the same brainwashing techniques that you claim the religious leaders to use. Here's a great example of such brainwashing :)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6340139673294822490&q=life+of+brian&total=3805&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

[james777]

James this is one verse that you take out of context of the chapter. I appreciate your insight, but let's read the chapeter (again) to understand what's going on. Why should we understand the context of the passage before we jump to rush conclisions... well I could take

Exodus 21:17
Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

or

Exodus 22:19
Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

or even

Exodus 31:15
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

And I can take these three verses... take a loaded gun and go on a shooting spree saying that God told me to do it. But the fact is... you have to understand the historical precedents and contextand read quite a bit before you make a conclusion.

So let's again look at the entire chapter and see what's going on here. I won't cut and paste the entire thing, but I'll pont out the key verses... so hopefully it will make some sence.

What was the historical context of Acts 2, and what purpose did it serve? The apostles gathered togeth with people listening from different countries, so there was a communication barrier. Gift of tongues gave people ability to supernaturaly transcend that barrier so that the people present will be able to UNDERSTAND IT. So understanding is a issue at center in the 1st corinthians 14. Check it out.





We'll get back to this verse. But observe that prophesying is at the forefront here... not speaking in tounges. In fact it's saying something of the matter:

Look for Love, and look for spiritual gifts so that you can understand and explain the nature and ways of God (prophesying in essence is not predicting future in this context)... becaue he that speakes in unkown language (unknown to the present congregation) only speaks to God... because people around him can not understand him (because they don't speak that language) so what he is saying in spirit is mystery to everyone else around.

How in the world did I come to that conclusion? Well, let's read on :)




Why? Because people can understand what he is saying.



Why? What's the difference? In the first case... speaking in unknown to congregation tongues (languages) people can not understand... so person only uplifts himself. In second case, person is benefitial for all as his ideas can be understood.



It's pretty clear that Paul here is teaching that he would rather people expounding on understanding, rather than blabber something nobody can understand. But Paul makes an exception... only if people enterpret what is being said.



Basically he is saying the same thing. It makes no difference if you blabber noncense that nobody can understand. It's like playing an instrument without knowing how to play it. It just makes bunch of noise.




Once again, the same context here. Note verse 9. If you utter words that are not understood you are just speaking into air.



Once again here is the context of the FOREIGN LANGUAGE that shows up again. If the person is speaking in "barbarian" language he is viewed as barbarian by those who do not understand, unless he interprets it... then it becomes something of significance.



Same here, if you are praying in tongues... and you don't understand what you are saying.... what difference does it make? It's better to do it in both spirit and understanding by doing so in language that you understand.



Same issue here at hand. How are the people around you UNDERSTAND? Aparently Paul makes a clear case for understanding.





Here Paul makes a clear case against speaking in tongues, saying that he would rather speak 5 words of understanding than 10000 in unknown language.



What is the context here once again? Is it the angelic tongues? No... with MEN of other tongues. God has no need for us to communicate with angels because they seem to understand our language pretty well, and he sure well understands what we are saying.



No here's a key passage here... Tongues are a singn.... for who? For those who do not believe. It meant to be a miraculous happening. Imagine somebody who thinks that there's no way he could possibly speak your language... and all of a sudden he speaks it fluently. That's exaclty what happened in Acts 2. Read it again. Those people were amazed... and therefore the message got across. If they did not understand what was being said, then what purpose would it serve? None. God's purpose is to reach to people.



And that's exacly what's happening. People would come in and jet out thinking you the people are crazy. They base their experience based on that one occasion and they won't come back. I don't blame them, because I don't think I would either... and I don't :).



But if you speak things that people can reasonably UNDERSTAND. Then people might acknowledge God as creator... in essence that's what worship is... it's not singing and jumping around... it's knowledge of something that changes your mind and the way you view this world.



everything should be done to buld up



If you do want to speak in another language... then it's clear here that it should be done in groups of 3 MAX :), and one or two should enterpret what's being said. But if there's no interpreter. Then let that person KEEP SILENT :) in public, and he can do whatever he wants on his own. The idea of collective church tongue praying and speaking is foreign to what Paul had in mind.




Same with those who claim to have understanding. These should take turn speaking, while others evaluate/learn.



Here's the central theme. By speaking something that confuses others is not of God. God is not author of confusion, but order and peace.






It should not be forbidden to speak in foreign languages either if it is genuine... but has to be done within above described guidelines. Which are... spoken in groups of 3 max. Has to be interpreted by others who understand that language.

So, let's get back to your original verse that you use for your support.




Verse 2 here is simply an explanation of verse 1 :). How so? I'll go over it again.

1) Look (follow) after love (charity), and look for gifts of the spirit... so that you can explain wisdom of God (prophesy)...

why?

2) Because he who speaks in unknown language speaks not to men (because no one can understand him) but to God (who can understand) ... and therefore what spirit is speaking is a mystery (to whom is it a mystery? to other people around of course).

BUT :)

3) "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort"... which leads me to conclude that he that does not... does not speak for comfort and edification.

So, I'm sorry James. I think you've missed the point of the verse. This entire chapte is in fact a clear case of making a case against speaking in tounges as much as possible. Peace.

I appreciate your response here and I enjoy the way you broke it down and explained everything. I've never looked at it or read into it as much as you. I've only simply taken it for what it says.

I can see your points, but I believe that the speaking of tongues is for the unbeliever because it makes us witnesses unto the testimony of Jesus and prophecy is for the believer so we can correctly get the message of the 'tongues' and receive the blessing and edification.

I'll tell you what I do know, I speak in tongues and it's not fake. Perhaps it is another earthly language, but I believe it's a heavenly language, either way that's pretty miraculous since I do not speak much of anything except for english.

One question though. Why does Paul claim that he speaks in tongues more than any of them, but he does so in private for personal edification? Does this mean that he's contradicting his own teachings?

[cheeb]

I have forgiven Jesus,
For the Crap in the world,
I have forgiven god

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Not forgiven Morrisey for how long,
It took me to put this up though!!!

[james777]

FCCOOL

Oh yeah....what about;

1Corinthians

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Why would he even mention this if he can't speak in tongues of ANGELS?

[fccool]

FCCOOL

Oh yeah....what about;

1Corinthians

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Why would he even mention this if he can't speak in tongues of ANGELS?

James... once again, read before and after before you throw 1 verse out there. Speaking 1 verse is like speaking in bumper sticker statements. Here's the whole passage:

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

Notice first that IF comes before every antithetical metaphore. IF I [statement] and I have no love.... then I am nothing. Does he fathom all of the mysteries and all knowledge? No, he did not claim to. Did he give all of his posessions to the poor... I don't think so. Did he surrender his body to flames? Not literaly... It would be reasonable to conclude that spirit beings have a set language. But you can't honestly say it by reading this passage that you know how to speak it :). The point of this passage is not to prove the existance of tongues of angels and that Paul can speak it. The point is that if he has no love... then nothing matters.

As for your question above. Paul does not say that he is speaking it in secret. He has gift of tongues so that he can communicate well with other nations. He uses it purposfully. His point is, why use it in church where nobody can understand what you say it. It's like me wrighting to you in chinese right now. What's the point? You wont get anything out of it. That's exactly his point. Whether you think it's real or not it's not up to me to decide, but up to you... for yourself. I've made my choice not to. All I can say is that you honestly can't be using these passages to make your case.
The whole thing is ... if it is a known language... then somebody in this world can understand and interpret. If it is not, the why blabber when there is no reason to do so from what I read. Whether it is real or not is irrelevant. What relevant is whether it can be understanding and is used for building up others... that's all there is to it. If it is just collection of sounds that you can't understand yourself... or others can't recognize, then it's makes no difference if it is jenuine or not. It's just that a foreign language... and it's like me litening to Japanese radio. I don't get anything out of it. :) Peace.

[cheeb]

It is called Enochian ,
The laungauge of angels

[james777]

James... once again, read before and after before you throw 1 verse out there. Speaking 1 verse is like speaking in bumper sticker statements. Here's the whole passage:

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

Notice first that IF comes before every antithetical metaphore. IF I [statement] and I have no love.... then I am nothing. Does he fathom all of the mysteries and all knowledge? No, he did not claim to. Did he give all of his posessions to the poor... I don't think so. Did he surrender his body to flames? Not literaly... It would be reasonable to conclude that spirit beings have a set language. But you can't honestly say it by reading this passage that you know how to speak it :). The point of this passage is not to prove the existance of tongues of angels and that Paul can speak it. The point is that if he has no love... then nothing matters.

As for your question above. Paul does not say that he is speaking it in secret. He has gift of tongues so that he can communicate well with other nations. He uses it purposfully. His point is, why use it in church where nobody can understand what you say it. It's like me wrighting to you in chinese right now. What's the point? You wont get anything out of it. That's exactly his point. Whether you think it's real or not it's not up to me to decide, but up to you... for yourself. I've made my choice not to. All I can say is that you honestly can't be using these passages to make your case.
The whole thing is ... if it is a known language... then somebody in this world can understand and interpret. If it is not, the why blabber when there is no reason to do so from what I read. Whether it is real or not is irrelevant. What relevant is whether it can be understanding and is used for building up others... that's all there is to it. If it is just collection of sounds that you can't understand yourself... or others can't recognize, then it's makes no difference if it is jenuine or not. It's just that a foreign language... and it's like me litening to Japanese radio. I don't get anything out of it. :) Peace.

Hmmm.....interesting! Thanks for the insight.

Do you think it could possibly be an extinct language? Perhaps the language that all men spoke before he divided our tongue? Remember Adam and God walked together and talked together.......??

Now that we're on the subject, where did language in general come from? Are all of our languages in fact heavenly because we are all spirits within?

[fccool]

Hmmm.....interesting! Thanks for the insight.

Do you think it could possibly be an extinct language? Perhaps the language that all men spoke before he divided our tongue? Remember Adam and God walked together and talked together.......??

Now that we're on the subject, where did language in general come from? Are all of our languages in fact heavenly because we are all spirits within?

I don't discount the idea. Although it seems like God spoke to people in languages that they could understand. Also, there's more to communication than language. According to some linguists... over 90% of our communication is non-verbal. I don't discount the idea of telepathy, or the language of thought. I don't think that's what spoken before the flood, but I believe that eventually it could be that we won't need the language at all. But that's just a speculation. BTW.. if you have not watched already....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2251461878127683608&q=kin+dza+dza&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8606387789179029392&q=kin+dza+dza&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Freaking awesome movie. Extremely deep too. Touches on language a bit :)

[seanx]

Lads,

Sorry to interfere in this fundamentalist hogwash discussion between
you two - but just looking at the title at the top of the forum you're
debating' on - mightn't you show people a liitle bit of respect and
'depart off' to some christian right forum where you can debate this
to your heart's content.

Why are you debating it here?

What is it in the christian and all the other organized religions
psyche that they feel they must impose their mindless thinking
and debates on all of us.

There are thousand sof christian right forums.....to debate on.
What's wrong with them?

[kasalt]

I'm trying to tell you that nobody was open to this, nobody knew about it my church. Absolutely no one, and then one day stuff broke out.

Look, those church leaders weren't smart enough or had the personality to conduct any mass hypnosis, and nobody was open to it.

It really isn't man made. Genuine things like this happen all the time, I don't think it has anything to specifically do with the bible or the Christain God either. Perhaps I'll write an essay on the whole ordeal for you guys.

-William

I understand that, but keep in mind it's nothing new. Dr. Neil Chadwick writes in his Pentecostal History that in the year 1801, Cane Ridge, Kentucky, at a Presbyterian camp meeting "about three thousand people fell in the state of trance, and other hundreds were given to such demonstrations as 'jerking, rolling, dancing, and barking'". All this sort of thing has been going on for decades, centuries even.

http://www.webedelic.com/church/penthisf.htm

[fccool]

Lads,

Sorry to interfere in this fundamentalist hogwash discussion between
you two - but just looking at the title at the top of the forum you're
debating' on - mightn't you show people a liitle bit of respect and
'depart off' to some christian right forum where you can debate this
to your heart's content.

Why are you debating it here?

What is it in the christian and all the other organized religions
psyche that they feel they must impose their mindless thinking
and debates on all of us.

There are thousand sof christian right forums.....to debate on.
What's wrong with them?


Sean. I hope you realize the noncence that you write. You don't see me standing by you nagging you to join. I don't even address to you. All this post asked of you is an opinion. Nobody forces you to believe anything. If you were, then it is because you've let them. So please let's leave these aside. I don't participate in organized religion. You have a choice to do what I do when I don't care about the topic... SKIP IT :). Truth is found in unexpected places. That's why I'm here. The whole reason I'm here is to demonstrate open mind on the subject. I DON'T have to agree with all, but I can agree on many issues. So why are you here other than impose your view of religion being a hogwash. What was the purpose of this reply? If this forum is for discussing truth, then explain to me how do you come to conclusion what truth is? How do you know, that you know, that you know?

[james777]

.Lads,

Sorry to interfere in this fundamentalist hogwash discussion between
you two - but just looking at the title at the top of the forum you're
debating' on - mightn't you show people a liitle bit of respect and
'depart off' to some christian right forum where you can debate this
to your heart's content.

Why are you debating it here?

What is it in the christian and all the other organized religions
psyche that they feel they must impose their mindless thinking
and debates on all of us.

There are thousand sof christian right forums.....to debate on.
What's wrong with them?

If you don't like the topic then just go 'mind your business' somewhere.

Do you believe that you're the gatekeeper of information around here?

You're not even on the pay-roll, so just calm down....

[phoebe]

Lads,

Sorry to interfere in this fundamentalist hogwash discussion between
you two - but just looking at the title at the top of the forum you're
debating' on - mightn't you show people a liitle bit of respect and
'depart off' to some christian right forum where you can debate this
to your heart's content.

Why are you debating it here?

What is it in the christian and all the other organized religions
psyche that they feel they must impose their mindless thinking
and debates on all of us.

There are thousand sof christian right forums.....to debate on.
What's wrong with them?

Sorry to interfere with your intolerant
Extremely blinkered view of what 'David Icke forum' should be
But perhaps if you showed a little of the tolerance
That the man who's named appears on this site preaches
You wouldn't get your knickered in such a twist.
Are you showing 'respect' by ridiculing people's beliefs?
If you don't like the subject matter
Why don't you 'depart off'
Onto another thread?
Easy.
Everyone's happy.

[seanx]

You people with your organized religions - whether it's christianity,
isalm or whatever -your views are reflected in the
majority (over 90%) of the mass media

Here, in this tiny forum ...the IDEA was that it would be a place
where people could debate and discuss an ALTERNATIVE VIEW-
the views explored by Dave icke in his books.

These ideas are acknowledged only by a tiny minority - and yet,
even in this tiny forum, designed to let the small number who
see value in his ideas --discuss them- EVEN fucking here -
we are hounded by you people discussing and trying to spread
your brainwashing religions.

I don't CARE what religions or Gods you fellow- just go off and
discuss them somewhere else.

I had, probably like a lot of people here had all that religious
crap 'beaten into us - most of our lives - so surely it's not
much to ask that people can have ONE forum to discuss
new ideas - free of you people always peddling the same old
religious arguments and propaganda..

That's why it's quite reasonable to tell you to: 'piss off.

Anyway, WHY would you WANT to be on a forum which
believes your religion is a totally fraud- an experiment
n mind-control, pure and simple??

[seanx]

James 777777
You're not even on the pay-roll, so just calm down

No. But I wonder what far-right church payroll you are on , Sir???

[james777]

You people with your organized religions - whether it's christianity,
isalm or whatever -your views are reflected in the
majority (over 90%) of the mass media

Here, in this tiny forum ...the IDEA was that it would be a place
where people could debate and discuss an ALTERNATIVE VIEW-
the views explored by Dave icke in his books.

These ideas are acknowledged only by a tiny minority - and yet,
even in this tiny forum, designed to let the small number who
see value in his ideas --discuss them- EVEN fucking here -
we are hounded by you people discussing and trying to spread
your brainwashing religions.

I don't CARE what religions or Gods you fellow- just go off and
discuss them somewhere else.

I had, probably like a lot of people here had all that religious
crap 'beaten into us - most of our lives - so surely it's not
much to ask that people can have ONE forum to discuss
new ideas - free of you people always peddling the same old
religious arguments and propaganda..

That's why it's quite reasonable to tell you to: 'piss off.

Anyway, WHY would you WANT to be on a forum which
believes your religion is a totally fraud- an experiment
n mind-control, pure and simple??

There are no rules about speaking about religions here.

Start your own Forum and ban people who do.

[seanx]

There are no rules about speaking about religions here.

Start your own Forum and ban people who do.

And leave this forum to you Jesus freaks.

But then-- that's what you're really here for, my friend - cause
enough disruption and post enough confusing threads that most will
just get fed up and leave.

There's method in their madness!

I suppose you guys are like a bad cold - something you have
to put up with.

Anyway.....any chance yet of you revealing your 'church' -
this sensitive topic that you don't like discussed.

A man, who's here, as you said yourself... to 'spread the word'...
must have his church where the repented sinners can flock to...
......yet you don't seem to want to divulge this place where
I can go and be saved?

Does this 'church' of yours have stratergies about converting
the unbelievers.

Maybe even an Internet policy of tackling the 'dark ones' who
spread lies and confuse the people about
the great truth of Jesus being the ONLY God?????

And surely you haven't targeted Mr. Icke as one of those dark
ones who are leading people astray?

[fccool]

You people with your organized religions - whether it's christianity,
isalm or whatever -your views are reflected in the
majority (over 90%) of the mass media

Sean... you don't even know what my views are. If you do claim to know these, the please let the people know them. Here some of my views that happen to coincide with Icke's.

1) International Bankers Control the world through creation of Money
2) Illuminati and other secret societies run the world and are preocupied with bloodlines
3) ALL of the religions of the world were used for manipulation and murder of near billlion peope.
4) 9-11 was not done by Arab highjackers, and probably was the final sequence that will bring about the final economic collapse and NWO.
5) There's a strange preocupation of the leaders with Satanism and Astrology, and blood drinking.
6) Beings from another dimention seem to control the top of the pyramid scheme for their own purpose.
7) These and Illuminati are strangely preoccupied with symbolism and symbolic meaning.
8) Many more...


But I don't think that you are even considering a remote possibility of me actually reading Icke's books, or watching his material as any OPEN MINDED person should seek for truth from anyone who claims to have it and evaluate based on the knowledge that he/she has already. Further I do have my own worldview and questions on top of these... which happen to align to "Christian" creation perspective rather than to Icke's conciousness perspective.

1) We reallly don't know and we can't trust our senses
2) We make our own choices so it seams independently of others, if we are "brainwashed" then it is only if we let ourselves to be. We can always disagree and we can always choose to believe otherwise if proper information is presented.
3) For something to be caused it has to have a cause logically. If you push a stone with a stick, then your arm pushes the stick, your arm is pushed by chemical and electrical reactions in your brain, which is powered by mechanisms running through your body... and so on. Going back ad infinitum, the unltimate uncaused thing that exists outside of the time... I call God. I CHOOSE to believe in a concept of intelligent God, because the concept of universal conciousness is not the same and does not provide answers to me. It may to you, but not to me. The answers to such questions as .... Why would such conciousness "lock itself" in a time and space imagined reality... just to experience it? It's like saying.... hey guys, I'm going to jail today because this is something I need to experience... And tomorrow will be even worth, I'm going to lock myself in a metal box for a 100 years just so I can experience how it is. It might make sense to you, it does not to me. So am I an idiot not to believe it and believe in intelligent God? On what bases do you claim to know enough truth to make such judgement? Where do you get your information, but by sources of sources of sources of sources? So what is essential diference between you and I? There is none... there are only perspectives.
4) Although I believe that God exists, and Jesus is a manifestation of such God... notice I don't align myself to, or promote any particular denomination. I believe that any of those is full of shit if it gathers under a hierarchy and aligns itself under government... good example... Catholic Church.
5) I believe that these "christians" will eventually rule the world through deception. This is happening today through puppet GW, and Roman Catholicism. It's everywhere. Notice what they believe ---- Traditions church dogma are above individual reason. This is bulshit :) as I believe it. We have reason and ability to logically debate the truth. You don't have to align yourself with cult, sect, denomination, support group, or even a spiritual leader (be it Icke or ghandi)... to do that.
6) CHOICE IS A WONDERFUL THING. I choose to be on this forum just like you do. Many people respect my opinions and choice to be here. And I do the same. I'm not here to spring cause divisions and running imaginary "Forum Wars" (Good title for a south park toon :)). There's no point in proving somebody right or wrong on the forum :). The only thing that you can get out of it is a new perspective that people give us. Hence the word FORUM :). It was an open marketplace in Rome where people exchanged the ideas and conducted business.
7) Notice that I don't cut and paste any texts from the Bible to argue my point with people who believe that Bible is a piece of shit. I don't, and there's no reason to. I respect their choice to do so.

So please, lighten up. You have much of learning to do like any of us here. If you claim to know everything there is to know (which I don't think you do), then I think I would not blaim you in acting like you do and asking me to carry the "religious" discussion elsewhere. But I do adhere by forum rules, and I don't think that you know everything. I ask questions to see understand what people believe.... and that's exactly what James777 did. He simply asked a question. That's all.



Here, in this tiny forum ...the IDEA was that it would be a place
where people could debate and discuss an ALTERNATIVE VIEW-
the views explored by Dave icke in his books.

These ideas are acknowledged only by a tiny minority - and yet,
even in this tiny forum, designed to let the small number who
see value in his ideas --discuss them- EVEN fucking here -
we are hounded by you people discussing and trying to spread
your brainwashing religions.

Icke, whos belief you claim to adhere to, respects my my choice to have these views and to discuss those openly as long as I don't impose those on people. I don't impose anything on anybody. I don't even ask you to understand me :). I simply ask questions to understand you. So please, be reasonable an join the rest of this forum and argue logically.

[seanx]

fccool,

Your reply was considered and makes some good points.

I wasn't actually referring to you personally in my post - but
I was referring to Mr. Jamess 777 and others.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with OPEN, HONEST debate - but
what is annoying is people coming on here, with a specific agenda
JUST TO FUCKING PREACH TO US.

Hold your fire! Fccool - don't agree or disagree with this now -
just spend, say the next month or so reading their posts - and
you'll see exactly what they are up to.

Icke, whos belief you claim to adhere to

And, like most people here- I don't adhere to Mr. icke's beliefs.
We are here to consider and discuss them - to see if they
resonate with us.

'Adhering' to beliefs is what you Christians do.

[fccool]

'Adhering' to beliefs is what you Christians do.

Now, now . If you honestly argue something, then you argue a perspective (or a belief about something to be a certain way). You and I and everyone in this world hold a certain belief about it. That's just the way you are. To say that you don't believe in anything is a belief in itself. I'm not saying that's what you believe... but I hope you get the point :). So saying that only "Christians" hold on to a certain belief is not very accurate to say the least.

Here are some of the dictionary synonims to "preaching" - Synonyms 5. advocate, profess, pronounce, expound

We all do that. So if you advocating your beliefs... you in fact preaching. Icke is preaching from the stage ... make no dillusions about it. This world is not locked only to a religious context, although that's where it's used for the most part. There's nothing wrong with it.

If there's somebody who you disagree with, then just say so and give LOGICAL reasons why. Telling people that they are wrong and you are right without providing a solid reasoning is meaningless... and you are correct... most Christians not only don't understand what they believe, they don't even know how to back it up logically. Some examples:

1) Bible is right because it says so
2) I know it's true because I felt it
3) I've seen God/Jesus/Angel and he told me
4) God told me
5) I don't know, but ask my pastor/preacher/rabbi/priest
6) Here's a verse from a Bible for you out of context... that's why it is wrong

That's why control is rampant in Churches today... but understand that this is not a sole case for church either... the same people who claim to be out of control of the church are in fact being controlled by virtually any ploys there are: Money, Debt, Work, Media, Popular Opinion, Unjust Law... you name it. So "religion", although constitutes a large part of control, is not the source of it.
When (and IF) Jesus taught that you have to love your enemies and neighbours, help the poor, seek truth... and I see the patterns of the so called "followers of Jesus" who do nothing but buildings and send people to 3rd world to exchange food for their souls so to speak (not in every case, but in MANY)... there's something wrong here. Not with notion of loving your enemies, helping the poor, and seeking the truth ... but with people who claim to follow these concepts. So when you meet one of these just ask these simple questions:

1) Those Arabs and Muslims... don't you just wish they just all pay for what they did to this country?

If the answer is "yes" then they merely pretending, and peddling bulshit

2) There's a homeless person on the corner of the street, he asks for some food and shelter... can he sleep over with you tonight... all he needs is just some right direction and minimal resources to start over... it will be a fraction of what you own, but it will mean everything for that person...

If they say no... they merely pretending, and peddling bullshit

These are just few of many, and unfortunatly most fail these simple tests. If Christianity was in fact so rampant in USA... there would not be war right now in Iraq. It's not even discussed in churches :). Somehow they just look the other way, or saying that the muslims (Iraw was mostly secular) are threat to their belief system... some stuff they saying makes my ears turn red... I'm left to think, where do you get that stuff? I'm reading the same book and I don't get the same impression. AHHH.... YOU DID NOT EVEN READ IT FOR YOURSELF AND LET OTHERS CONCLUDE WHAT TO BELIEVE FOR YOU... You know, eventually it all boils down to ... my priest said, my pastor said. So you see, nothing has to be corrupted essentially. All you have to do is to dumb down people enough for them to stop caring and make issues out of none-issues.

Like this thread for example . No offence to James777. I know that it's his curiosity and essentially what the essence of the questions. Do you believe in speaking in tongues. This is a big issue in churches today. People scream at each other, trying to prove one thing... It's real, It's not real. IT DOES NOT MATTER . Speaking in tongues is none issue. Love is the greatest issue. If you have no love, or act out of love... then nothing matters. Icke recognizes this and it is an age old concept. So whether you come to it trough Universal conciousness Ickianity route, or one God route is up to you. I'm not saying that these are the only two alternatives to believe, but these seem to be talked much on this thread. But let's not throw labels in face of the argument, and thus declare it invalid. There thousand labels in this world... we are essentially none of them. We are something completely different, and I think we all going to be surprised one day. All I'm saying is that it's beneficial to know what others believe.

For example let's take this very plausable scenario. It's funny when you follow it all, it kind of ads up... I'm not saying this is going to happen, but stay with me for a sec:

Banks of the world just infused near a trillion dollars worldwide into global economy (just a couple days ago). All of a sudden the gas prices fallen from nearly $3 per gallon to 2.65 . Everything's gonna be "ok". But if you know and been following what's going on... then it's obvious that it is a final push to make sure that the Global Economic Bubble burst as loud as possible. Why would anybody want to destroy the world economy and send the world into euphoria. Remember "order out of chaos". Then at the same time let's say that the riots and revolutions will be instigated. The media will make sure to blow everything out of proportion and to make everything seem as though the world is going to end. Couple of "terrorist attacks" happen silmuntaniously, and the deadly virus unleashed globally. World is in euphoria, and in the midst of all of this... people "miraculosly" disappear off the streats and homes and "Jesus" comes back.
Hell, with all of the euphoria going on... even the strongest atheists would be hoping for the best. So "Jesus" performs incredible miracles, and restores the order on the streets. The christians are extatic, the muslims are extatic (they believe essentially the same about Jesus coming back), and the rest of the world who did not care... all of a sudden believe. So "Jesus" says that for world to go on, you have to join in or be eliminated. So the witchhunt begins.

I don't know if that will be the sequence of events, but it seams extremely plausable to me with the 1/4th of the world being Catholic, and many more familiar with "Jesus" religion. The NWO will HAVE to be a RELIGIOUS order. So knowing what they'll push is useful to know at least. One of the things that is hillarious to me are the paintings of Jesus...

Is that Jesus? :)

http://www.heart-cry.com/love/Jesus_ws.jpg

Or maybe this one?

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/mhillebrandt/2007/01/10/jesus.jpg

Or perhaps this one?

http://www.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/d/d8/Jesus_Christ.jpg

My personal Favourite...Black Jesus.. although probably much closer to what Jesus would have looked like

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i194/johncbyrd3/BlackJesus3.jpg

And of course, a mr. Rogers Jesus.

http://www.angwinreporter.com/2006/AR07/provonsha1.jpg


Here's what actual middle eastern man looks like.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41791000/jpg/_41791592_wounded_afp_416.jpg



See any similarities? So why push for hippie Jesus, when actual Jesus looks like the people American troops shoot on the streats of Iraq? Because people don't give a shit to actually learn that we don't know what he looked like. Well, there are historical refferences to jesus being a pretty unpleasant to look at hunchback. Talking about ugly truth. It is also interesting to know that "christian rapture" is nowhere to be found in the book. It's not there. It's invented. Jesus never said he's coming back to rule on Earth.

So I think in case if my scenario falls through, knowing this would be a nice piece of information to call bullshit on Illuminati plan... So don't dismiss everything as useless babble. Some things may or may not be useful. Filter through it. We all do this every day.

[james777]

.Now, now . If you honestly argue something, then you argue a perspective (or a belief about something to be a certain way). You and I and everyone in this world hold a certain belief about it. That's just the way you are. To say that you don't believe in anything is a belief in itself. I'm not saying that's what you believe... but I hope you get the point :). So saying that only "Christians" hold on to a certain belief is not very accurate to say the least.

Here are some of the dictionary synonims to "preaching" - Synonyms 5. advocate, profess, pronounce, expound

We all do that. So if you advocating your beliefs... you in fact preaching. Icke is preaching from the stage ... make no dillusions about it. This world is not locked only to a religious context, although that's where it's used for the most part. There's nothing wrong with it.

If there's somebody who you disagree with, then just say so and give LOGICAL reasons why. Telling people that they are wrong and you are right without providing a solid reasoning is meaningless... and you are correct... most Christians not only don't understand what they believe, they don't even know how to back it up logically. Some examples:

1) Bible is right because it says so
2) I know it's true because I felt it
3) I've seen God/Jesus/Angel and he told me
4) God told me
5) I don't know, but ask my pastor/preacher/rabbi/priest
6) Here's a verse from a Bible for you out of context... that's why it is wrong

That's why control is rampant in Churches today... but understand that this is not a sole case for church either... the same people who claim to be out of control of the church are in fact being controlled by virtually any ploys there are: Money, Debt, Work, Media, Popular Opinion, Unjust Law... you name it. So "religion", although constitutes a large part of control, is not the source of it.
When (and IF) Jesus taught that you have to love your enemies and neighbours, help the poor, seek truth... and I see the patterns of the so called "followers of Jesus" who do nothing but buildings and send people to 3rd world to exchange food for their souls so to speak (not in every case, but in MANY)... there's something wrong here. Not with notion of loving your enemies, helping the poor, and seeking the truth ... but with people who claim to follow these concepts. So when you meet one of these just ask these simple questions:

1) Those Arabs and Muslims... don't you just wish they just all pay for what they did to this country?

If the answer is "yes" then they merely pretending, and peddling bulshit

2) There's a homeless person on the corner of the street, he asks for some food and shelter... can he sleep over with you tonight... all he needs is just some right direction and minimal resources to start over... it will be a fraction of what you own, but it will mean everything for that person...

If they say no... they merely pretending, and peddling bullshit

These are just few of many, and unfortunatly most fail these simple tests. If Christianity was in fact so rampant in USA... there would not be war right now in Iraq. It's not even discussed in churches :). Somehow they just look the other way, or saying that the muslims (Iraw was mostly secular) are threat to their belief system... some stuff they saying makes my ears turn red... I'm left to think, where do you get that stuff? I'm reading the same book and I don't get the same impression. AHHH.... YOU DID NOT EVEN READ IT FOR YOURSELF AND LET OTHERS CONCLUDE WHAT TO BELIEVE FOR YOU... You know, eventually it all boils down to ... my priest said, my pastor said. So you see, nothing has to be corrupted essentially. All you have to do is to dumb down people enough for them to stop caring and make issues out of none-issues.

Like this thread for example . No offence to James777. I know that it's his curiosity and essentially what the essence of the questions. Do you believe in speaking in tongues. This is a big issue in churches today. People scream at each other, trying to prove one thing... It's real, It's not real. IT DOES NOT MATTER . Speaking in tongues is none issue. Love is the greatest issue. If you have no love, or act out of love... then nothing matters. Icke recognizes this and it is an age old concept. So whether you come to it trough Universal conciousness Ickianity route, or one God route is up to you. I'm not saying that these are the only two alternatives to believe, but these seem to be talked much on this thread. But let's not throw labels in face of the argument, and thus declare it invalid. There thousand labels in this world... we are essentially none of them. We are something completely different, and I think we all going to be surprised one day. All I'm saying is that it's beneficial to know what others believe.

For example let's take this very plausable scenario. It's funny when you follow it all, it kind of ads up... I'm not saying this is going to happen, but stay with me for a sec:

Banks of the world just infused near a trillion dollars worldwide into global economy (just a couple days ago). All of a sudden the gas prices fallen from nearly $3 per gallon to 2.65 . Everything's gonna be "ok". But if you know and been following what's going on... then it's obvious that it is a final push to make sure that the Global Economic Bubble burst as loud as possible. Why would anybody want to destroy the world economy and send the world into euphoria. Remember "order out of chaos". Then at the same time let's say that the riots and revolutions will be instigated. The media will make sure to blow everything out of proportion and to make everything seem as though the world is going to end. Couple of "terrorist attacks" happen silmuntaniously, and the deadly virus unleashed globally. World is in euphoria, and in the midst of all of this... people "miraculosly" disappear off the streats and homes and "Jesus" comes back.
Hell, with all of the euphoria going on... even the strongest atheists would be hoping for the best. So "Jesus" performs incredible miracles, and restores the order on the streets. The christians are extatic, the muslims are extatic (they believe essentially the same about Jesus coming back), and the rest of the world who did not care... all of a sudden believe. So "Jesus" says that for world to go on, you have to join in or be eliminated. So the witchhunt begins.

I don't know if that will be the sequence of events, but it seams extremely plausable to me with the 1/4th of the world being Catholic, and many more familiar with "Jesus" religion. The NWO will HAVE to be a RELIGIOUS order. So knowing what they'll push is useful to know at least. One of the things that is hillarious to me are the paintings of Jesus...

Is that Jesus? :)

http://www.heart-cry.com/love/Jesus_ws.jpg

Or maybe this one?

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/mhillebrandt/2007/01/10/jesus.jpg

Or perhaps this one?

http://www.mormonwiki.com/wiki/images/d/d8/Jesus_Christ.jpg

My personal Favourite...Black Jesus.. although probably much closer to what Jesus would have looked like

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i194/johncbyrd3/BlackJesus3.jpg

And of course, a mr. Rogers Jesus.

http://www.angwinreporter.com/2006/AR07/provonsha1.jpg


Here's what actual middle eastern man looks like.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41791000/jpg/_41791592_wounded_afp_416.jpg



See any similarities? So why push for hippie Jesus, when actual Jesus looks like the people American troops shoot on the streats of Iraq? Because people don't give a shit to actually learn that we don't know what he looked like. Well, there are historical refferences to jesus being a pretty unpleasant to look at hunchback. Talking about ugly truth. It is also interesting to know that "christian rapture" is nowhere to be found in the book. It's not there. It's invented. Jesus never said he's coming back to rule on Earth.

So I think in case if my scenario falls through, knowing this would be a nice piece of information to call bullshit on Illuminati plan... So don't dismiss everything as useless babble. Some things may or may not be useful. Filter through it. We all do this every day.

Now this is a great piece of writing and I love how you put your thoughts together, I'm neither in agreement or dis-agreement, I just recognize superior writing and knowledge when I see it.

Anyways, I would like to touch on the last paragraph there, about the rapture. You are absolutely, 100% accurate when you say the word 'rapture' isn't in the bible. Great point!! Our english translation basically speaks of the second coming and 'the meeting in the air' when Christ returns. The actual Greek Translation refers to the root word 'Parousia', which means -to be caught up-. Amazing how they now have 3 main beliefs in 'mainstream religion, pre-, mid- and post- tribulation 'rapture'. Where did they get these beliefs when none of this is even mentioned?!?!?!

Even funnier is the fact that there isn't even a '7 year tribulation' period ever mentioned. This comes from mistranslations in the book of Daniel and mainly the 'roman catholic church'.

When Jesus returns it will be unmistakable, loud and very visual! There will be no disappearances and suddenly no one knows what happened......lol......funny though how people have accepted this as fact and would go as far as 'dying' for this make-believe belief!

P.S. The black Jesus w/ dreds is AWESOME!!!

[seanx]

Well, make sure and tell us when he comes.

I must get sky news or maybe CNN. They'll definitely cover it.

Any 'inside' infro on when he's going to pop down?

Probably be around 6 oclock ..and then he'll make it on time
for the main evening news.

God, it's going to be great, lads...all our problems solved ...no more self-responsibility..we can put it all on Jesus's shoulders.

Great.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings seanx!:

Lots of indicators to observe: Before Yahshuas return, 9/10s of all humans that were alive will be dead from the effects of Global Thermonuclear War,and we can probably figure the Assholes that be will also unleash chemical and biological weapons as well. His intervention is to preserve some Human dna so that it is not entirely corrupted. The entirety of Earths environment will be so toxic that the 1/10 remaining humans will perish, without His intervention. This may or may not affect reception of your T.V. signal, I dunno

These calamities will be brought about by humans themselves. Bush with access to the 'nuclear football' has always concerned me.

Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[lydia78]

Hi Snoop,

Since when,have 'potential' destructive future events become rock solid fact, or are you implicating that you have no faith that humaniity will overcome such destruction upon the planet?
Yes humans have the ability to destroy but they also have the ability to prevent such destruction from happening. Do you really believe we are beyond saving ourselves?


Peace & Greetings seanx!:

Lots of indicators to observe: Before Yahshuas return, 9/10s of all humans that were alive will be dead from the effects of Global Thermonuclear War,and we can probably figure the Assholes that be will also unleash chemical and biological weapons as well. His intervention is to preserve some Human dna so that it is not entirely corrupted. The entirety of Earths environment will be so toxic that the 1/10 remaining humans will perish, without His intervention. This may or may not affect reception of your T.V. signal, I dunno

These calamities will be brought about by humans themselves. Bush with access to the 'nuclear football' has always concerned me.

Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus


Can you explain?

Thanx:confused:

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings lydia78!:

What I illustrated for seanx are the prerequisites for Messiahs return so as to dispel confusion that alot of people will be around to be concerned about it.

I direct your attention now to a Lancet Medical Publication report that posted findings by the Massachussets Institute of Technology, John Hopkins University and Columbia Universitys report of over 700,000 (thats out of 25,000,000 Iraqis)Iraqi deaths since 2003 due to warfare, include the seriously wounded and those sickened by the depleted and non-depleted uranium munitions and we are well on our way to broadening conflicts.

I agree with the 'science' of the 'duality' of the Mind. The Carnal and the Higher mind, Humans are favouring the carnal, as a whole, especially the ones with technology. It is the Carnal humans who have control.

Since 1991 low-level nuclear war has been waged from the Balkans to southwest asia. Depleted and Non-Depleted Uranium Munitions are known as 'Force Multipliers'. the residue remains harmful long after the combatants have left the field. Have you seen the reports of the Babies being poisoned in their Mothers wombs from the effect of these weapons, it will break a heart of stone.

From decades of observation, I, have to admit, I do not have 'Faith' in humans to do the 'right thing'. lots of 'High Talkin'.

Toss in STDs, poisoning the food, water, soil, air. corruption of mores by Hollywood and mass media(honestly, I could go on and on). In the thread I started, I presented a potential solution, develop humans Moral Character.

There has been a Peaceful Solution presented to man, Lo, 4,000 years ago.
Mankind so far has rejected that way. oh well.

It is truely up to each individual to be part of the solution or part of the problem. This is why discernment of ones actions carries great weight.

People say: Oh, they have always talked of mass extinction since the middle ages and before, yet it is only the last 50 years man has actually acquired the werewithal(nuclear armaments) to actually destroy all life on earth. Read: Nuclear Winter. This was prophesied by Moses(for those of us who believe such things) Blessings or Curses or Life or Death, the choice has always been our. We have not been wise.

Politics: I agree with H.L.Menken...Democracy: The worship of Jackals by Jackasses. Will mankind get his poop into one sock, I think not.

I am not a 'Gloomy Gus', I am by nature quite cheerful, besides being a skilled craftsperson, a classical guitarist and multi-media Artist, and I love people, not neccessarily what they are doing. Hate the 'sin, love the 'sinner', I am not 'polyannish' I am proactive in my own and my families 'Character Development'.

Last point: Consider 'PRIONS' this is a subject should be of interest to everybody, because it affects everybody on Earth, a few years ago when England was burnin' all the critters, many PRIONS were released into the atmosphere. I believe it takes 1,500 degrees Fht. to destroy Prions. A thread should be started on this subject. Also recent report from CDC Atlanta, reported the average american now reaches peak health at 30yo. Check out the CDC website for all sorts of interesting information of the American condition.

Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[lydia78]

Hi Snoop,

I am familiar with the crap we humans currently find ourselves in, the horrors, the utter bewilderment of it all is astounding and should not be even happening. But they are, so why?

I really feel that humans have never been given a bloody chance to discover if we can make it work, there's always someone or something there trying to manipulate our sense of nature, some god, opposition, bombardment of negative energies, thoughts, actions for crying out loud, can anyone tell me what true human nature is, without all the galactic interference etc etc??
I have an opinion born from real life experience, it's called talking and getting to know people, and from this experience I have discovered unbelievable amounts of spiritually awake humans, all questioning, from all walks of life, and I'm not alone, the majority here could probably say the same, we are working towards a solution and I have a real problem with fatalists.

The fat lady hasn't sung shit yet.

Scriptures or not, In my reality humanity takes back it's power in the union of infinite love, come what may when the final hour comes we will be ready!!


Peace & Greetings lydia78!:

What I illustrated for seanx are the prerequisites for Messiahs return so as to dispel confusion that alot of people will be around to be concerned about it.

I direct your attention now to a Lancet Medical Publication report that posted findings by the Massachussets Institute of Technology, John Hopkins University and Columbia Universitys report of over 700,000 (thats out of 25,000,000 Iraqis)Iraqi deaths since 2003 due to warfare, include the seriously wounded and those sickened by the depleted and non-depleted uranium munitions and we are well on our way to broadening conflicts.

I agree with the 'science' of the 'duality' of the Mind. The Carnal and the Higher mind, Humans are favouring the carnal, as a whole, especially the ones with technology. It is the Carnal humans who have control.

Since 1991 low-level nuclear war has been waged from the Balkans to southwest asia. Depleted and Non-Depleted Uranium Munitions are known as 'Force Multipliers'. the residue remains harmful long after the combatants have left the field. Have you seen the reports of the Babies being poisoned in their Mothers wombs from the effect of these weapons, it will break a heart of stone.

From decades of observation, I, have to admit, I do not have 'Faith' in humans to do the 'right thing'. lots of 'High Talkin'.

Toss in STDs, poisoning the food, water, soil, air. corruption of mores by Hollywood and mass media(honestly, I could go on and on). In the thread I started, I presented a potential solution, develop humans Moral Character.

There has been a Peaceful Solution presented to man, Lo, 4,000 years ago.
Mankind so far has rejected that way. oh well.

It is truely up to each individual to be part of the solution or part of the problem. This is why discernment of ones actions carries great weight.

People say: Oh, they have always talked of mass extinction since the middle ages and before, yet it is only the last 50 years man has actually acquired the werewithal(nuclear armaments) to actually destroy all life on earth. Read: Nuclear Winter. This was prophesied by Moses(for those of us who believe such things) Blessings or Curses or Life or Death, the choice has always been our. We have not been wise.

Politics: I agree with H.L.Menken...Democracy: The worship of Jackals by Jackasses. Will mankind get his poop into one sock, I think not.
Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

With all due respect I feel strongly about focusing on the postive attributes of humanity, I have strong opinions of the darkness that is channelled by us also, all I'm saying is we've only just begun and a defeatist attitude doesn't help anyone.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings lydia78!:

I hear ya! but listen, the 'Fat Lady' is doing her warm-up scales.

And as I said, I am pro-active. I love my family and children but I will stand on my position: It is deficits of Individual Moral Character that is the root cause of humankinds woes. Start combining these individuals with deficits of moral character with like individuals and the multiplication become exponential.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS

Think democratic and republican parties....for a start.

Lydia78, the 'Best is Yet to come' but not through mans agency.
I have posted this before and it is a FACT: I challenge the Board to refute this: 99% of humanbeings are utilising less than 50% of their Brain/Mind Capacity.there is a reason for this, and it is not 'evolution' this is a key part of the equation.

The Human Brain/Mind Complex is more powerful than the worlds most powerful super-computer. This is where 'The worm turns' Books on the neuro-sciences will confirm this.

My Kindest Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[lydia78]

Hi Snoop,

I study psychology but never heard of worms-turning/turned whatever in biopsych....can you stop being so cryptic and say it how it is because I'm not sure I follow you......thanks.

I'm not going to debate with you about your negative perception of humanity, it's your call, your freedom to think how you will, all the best to you, but the way i see it, this negative perception of the end being nigh only contributes to the end being nigh, your thoughts create your reality!!

best regards.

[fccool]

Well, make sure and tell us when he comes.

I must get sky news or maybe CNN. They'll definitely cover it.

Any 'inside' infro on when he's going to pop down?

Probably be around 6 oclock ..and then he'll make it on time
for the main evening news.

God, it's going to be great, lads...all our problems solved ...no more self-responsibility..we can put it all on Jesus's shoulders.

Great.

That's the whole problem. If CNN covers it, then it is not Jesus who came back :).

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings lydia78!:

'Turning of the worm' at the 'Crux of the Crux of the Crux'=the pivotal point at the essence, core of the matter at hand.

This Utilisation of the Brain/Mind Complex is very important. You should be familiar with the points I made above concerning our(humans) msot important muscle.

There is a Mechanical & Mathematical essence to life on this planet. When I poop into the water upstream from you, it effects the water you are receiving downstream. Now, I was a Level 'A' Labourer=70$ hour, Level 'A' Hazardous Waste Worker,(environmental hazard remediation technician) First Union Labourer in the United States to get 100% on Federal Radiation Workers Exam.(puffs up and preens) I have actually shoveled up many, many tons of very nasty 'stuff'. This is Pro-Active.

You can 'Beam Sunshine' all day but it won't get the Prions, Depleted Uramium, The PCBs. Humanity is divided between the 'Technocratic Civilised' societies and the 'Natural Peoples', the Xingu Indians, The Inuits, The Tibetans, and so on.

It is our Techno-cratic societies that have already, at this date, done enormous harm to the earths environment. Check out PRIONS and their ramifications. Where I live Albany N.Y., we had a munitions Plant that made D.U., it has contaminated a wide area, cluster illnesses around the site, this is a densly populated area, A 10 acre site has already cost 175,000,000$
for demolition and remediaton, and it still isn't done.

These PRIONS and D.U Particles are Airborne. They have become embedded in our food supplies. Root Cause(causal factor) Individual Deficit of Moral Character. Usually incited by Money and Perceived Power.

GM Crops. Frankenfood. The 'School I am in' we do not speak of the NWO, the Illumiwhattis, the Zorghanixians from Planet Urbex, we speak of the 'Beast System, Satan, Babylon.

The Iraq War= New Babylon versus Old Babylon, the 'Snake is eating its tail.

To the Author of this thread I apologize for being so off topic, one post has led to another.

Miss Lydia78, please stop by the Yahweh thread and discuss more, I must leave now, but I desire to speak with you about the Brain/Mind Complex Utilisation Factor. This is a Key Element of the Algebraic Equation we humans are 'crafting.

Until then, my Kindest Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[seanx]

I agree with the positive points lydia78 makes.

it's obvious she has an excellent innate understanding of the
ideas dave icke is trying to expound.

As for snoopsnuffleopagus, I have to be honest - I haven't got a clue
what you're talking about.

[lydia78]

This is one of the funniest vids I've seen in ages!!!:)


Oh Your God!!!

I just found a video of Benny Hinn,

One of the foremost Pentecostals in the U.S.and A

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FxIEaJXSPmA

The bloke is hillarious,

You take this seriously.

Saints preserve us!!!LOL

[abram730]

Did not anyone know,
That God is a programme,
To keep you enslaved,
Into a dubious mindset,
C'mon , this is the David Icke forum here,
Not the born again missionary.

Infiltrators.

POe
Pttb

http://www.yuricareport.com/Campaign2004/HurricaneCharlieWasSenttoPunishFlorida!.htm

this all correct.. That surprises me.. but the one needs to be in an altered state of mind or different reality to be aware of things like that.

I wonder if they got Katerina correct. There were many messages from different people and different forces.

But then there is the DLC.... Hillary is Bush in a dress.

[abram730]

The brain-state known as catharsis is a temporarily state where the brain is wiped clean and the new suggestion is accepted. It is used by Christian fundamentalist preachers as a form of mind control for controlling their congregation



See this article here (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7309) for a full explanation of how this works.

yes I attempted to hypnotise one and I never saw anything like it...a fall back induction caused a holy ghost.... hypnotised is the state where one can get messages and God language is not like and spoken tongue... nothing like any... It's a.. well I shouldn't talk about it in detail.. It could be used for bad and there are those that want the world to end.