The Hezerkhani video!! WATCH!

[thedame]

Hey guys.. has anyone researched the Hezerkhani connection? He's the guy who apparently video'd the second plane 'hitting' the 2nd Tower. The first video has the close-ups where you see the plane 'vanishing' into the building. The second video is a short investigation into who Hezerhkanis. Pretty disturbing, if you can get over the gravelly -movie-trailer type talkover. (who IS that guy?) Hopefully these links will work..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOeNUax-gaw

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpyBtOT1l2k

if they don't just copy the URL into the address bar.. it's good info...

damex

[narcolepticwatchman]

Interesting to hear John Whites view on this as well. Heseems to dissappear when strong arguments in favour of npt emerge......

[geewhizz]

Hi

The guy researching the Hezerhkanis footage says the underwing 'Pod' on the aircraft cannot be seen until the plane just about hits the tower. If you look at this closely that statement is wrong, it can be seen all the time but gets more noticable when the sun reflects......

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[irie_dave]

Hi

The guy researching the Hezerhkanis footage says the underwing 'Pod' on the aircraft cannot be seen until the plane just about hits the tower. If you look at this closely that statement is wrong, it can be seen all the time but gets more noticable when the sun reflects......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCVwuf_AMFs&mode=related&search=

Light reflection & stuff are the reasons for this no-plane shit, I think the actual planes were there. It is interesting though that this guy who filmed the impact is not allowed to say where he was. That says to me not that the planes were faked necessarily but that there were camera people pre-set up to film the impact.

[thedame]

Personally I think the 'pod' idea is a non-starter aswell. I don't think light reflection and stuff is a viable reason for the plane to have vanished into the building like that. Something that big and solid would have caused some sort of physical reaction to the metal and glass of the building.

Regardless, I am more of the persuasion that a plane did hit the building...

[geewhizz]

Hi

Dame, I agree we are all entitled to our opinions but I just dont buy the fake plane scenario. I really think that aircraft hit the towers, look at military footage of missile hitting 6inch thick steel warships, a projectile at speed would do as it is seen in the video.

911 conspiracy is a diversion from personal evolution, dont get bogged down in all this stuff.

[hagbard_celine]

I don't deny that it's possible to carry out this attack and fake images of the planes, both in the air, using holgrpahic Imax-type projectors, and on the footage using animation. But wouldn't it be simpler just to use real planes? Wouldn't it make the conspiracy less to-heavy, more likely to come off and more believable?

[hagbard_celine]

I noticed that the trees in Battery Park in the 2007 shot were taller than in the 9/11 shot. Can they grow that fast in 6 years or was Hezarkhani standing somewhere else?

[narcolepticwatchman]

There is a whole debate going on about the angle of the shot, thats why they called Hezerkani in the first instance.

I think this is also the video that Dean Warwick talks about in his interview with Dave Starbuck below

http://www.revelationaudiovisual.com/Audio/Dean%20Warwick%2001.wma

The more you think about this, the more it looks suspicious. I mean, did he really die because he was going to reveal the Anti Christ? or could his no plane theory have had anything to do with it? I mean, at the time of his death, NPT was not discussed.

Then there was the death of the student of Dr Judy Wood who was, surprisingly, researching the use of unconventional weapons on the towers.

I dunno bout everybody else, but to me, when there is a trail of blood, the truth isn't very far behind.

[graflok]

Hey guys.. has anyone researched the Hezerkhani connection? He's the guy who apparently video'd the second plane 'hitting' the 2nd Tower. The first video has the close-ups where you see the plane 'vanishing' into the building. The second video is a short investigation into who Hezerhkanis. Pretty disturbing, if you can get over the gravelly -movie-trailer type talkover. (who IS that guy?) Hopefully these links will work..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOeNUax-gaw

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpyBtOT1l2k

if they don't just copy the URL into the address bar.. it's good info...

damex

This is interesting. I especially like the the way the building face "heals" itself.

[narcolepticwatchman]

what has the pod got to do with anything? If the video is faked then there is no plane and no pod............?

[john white]

Interesting to hear John Whites view on this as well. Heseems to dissappear when strong arguments in favour of npt emerge......

Is it? Do I? What do you think I am, an omnipotent force?

This whole ho-ha is just the usual "9/11 researchers" smear campaign against anyone whos a threat to their "dogma". I dearly remember Fred trying to prove this footage fake by using a fake photograph!

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=8678&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=image+impossible

Isnt it "interesting?" that my analysis never recieved ANY counter?

And BTW: No Planes Theory blown into shreds:

http://www.911disinformation.com/noplanes/NoPlanesCounterEvidence.html

What people beleive is up to them: but when it comes to 9/11, its vitally important IMHO to check out the form of the person making the claims

[john white]

Hey guys.. has anyone researched the Hezerkhani connection? He's the guy who apparently video'd the second plane 'hitting' the 2nd Tower. The first video has the close-ups where you see the plane 'vanishing' into the building. The second video is a short investigation into who Hezerhkanis. Pretty disturbing, if you can get over the gravelly -movie-trailer type talkover. (who IS that guy?) Hopefully these links will work..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOeNUax-gaw

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpyBtOT1l2k

if they don't just copy the URL into the address bar.. it's good info...

damex

Re the second link:

Smearing evidence sources or REAL 9/11 researchers who don't support NPT as "terrorists" and "members of Al-queda" is now a key tactic from fred/aka BS registration

Its interesting that people who apparently claim 9/11 was an inside job are also playing on the fear and manipulation of the war on terror to discredit those they have set their sights on to attack

[narcolepticwatchman]

Re the second link:

Smearing evidence sources or REAL 9/11 researchers who don't support NPT as "terrorists" and "members of Al-queda" is now a key tactic from fred/aka BS registration

Its interesting that people who apparently claim 9/11 was an inside job are also playing on the fear and manipulation of the war on terror to discredit those they have set their sights on to attack

You used the same smear tactic on another thread. Ok, you never said they were terrorists, but you did use the smear tactic when you accused NP theorists of faking videos and having debatable pasts.

[john white]

You used the same smear tactic on another thread. Ok, you never said they were terrorists, but you did use the smear tactic when you accused NP theorists of faking videos and having debatable pasts.

Nah mate, thats just true!

Ask Miss "strip out 75% of the frames, stretch some bits delete others, then drastically reduce the resolution: oh-look-instant "anomoly"" Grable, with the background of 3 years backing "pod theory" then switiching to "but i knew there were no planes all the time!"

And of course: still no counter to my proving Fred has used faked up images to make his case

Basic suckers game, which you havnt yet got over yourself enough to realise

[john white]

But nice admission that Fred uses smear tactics, and this little drama is another example!

[narcolepticwatchman]

Is it? Do I? What do you think I am, an omnipotent force?

This whole ho-ha is just the usual "9/11 researchers" smear campaign against anyone whos a threat to their "dogma". I dearly remember Fred trying to prove this footage fake by using a fake photograph!

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=8678&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=image+impossible

Isnt it "interesting?" that my analysis never recieved ANY counter?

And BTW: No Planes Theory blown into shreds:

http://www.911disinformation.com/noplanes/NoPlanesCounterEvidence.html

What people beleive is up to them: but when it comes to 9/11, its vitally important IMHO to check out the form of the person making the claims

A bit like my analysis on your engine exit theory on the September clues thread then? No-one has brought up fred or the photo you claim is faked......that photo has nothing to do with his photo in this video.......or are you saying that the comparison in this clip is faked as well?

I like how the site you link to only focusses on the NPT and Star Wars weapons.......looks like that has been set up specifically to debunk to me. There are a million other pieces of 'disinformation' on 9/11.......why only pick these 3? Oh and there is at least one photo linked in that site which is fake......can you tell me which one it is? I'll give you the opportunity to respond before I totally ruin what little credibility you have left on this issue.

C'mon now John, for the super researcher that you make yourself out to be, you seem to be nailing your colours to a very shaky mast by using that site as your basis for 'blowing the official version to shreds'

[narcolepticwatchman]

Just did a whois lookup on that site you linked to John........the registrant is denoted as 'private' . Why would they do that? What are THEY hiding?

[narcolepticwatchman]

But nice admission that Fred uses smear tactics, and this little drama is another example!

Sorry, I didn't admit that mate, I don't even know the guy apart from seeing 1 or 2 of his vids. For all I know he may use the tactic, he may not.......why twist my words? What can you possibly gain from that apart from making yourself out to be a total tosser?

[john white]

Just did a whois lookup on that site you linked to John........the registrant is denoted as 'private' . Why would they do that? What are THEY hiding?

Gee maybe there not keen to have Fred call the FBI alledging they are members of Al-Queda like he did with Albanese?

[john white]

Sorry, I didn't admit that mate, I don't even know the guy apart from seeing 1 or 2 of his vids. For all I know he may use the tactic, he may not.......why twist my words? What can you possibly gain from that apart from making yourself out to be a total tosser?

"Hey where's John white? What does he think abut this? Maybe hes frightened of posting his opinion

Oh he did... and blew me away

Guess I'll call him a total tosser then!"

the same smear tactic

Defacto admission whilst you tried (and failed) to smear me

Way too amatuer!

You can play innocent all you like, but fact is your in with a nest of vipers and your own character is too flawed to realise what you are part of

[sidlittle]

Is it? Do I? What do you think I am, an omnipotent force?

This whole ho-ha is just the usual "9/11 researchers" smear campaign against anyone whos a threat to their "dogma". I dearly remember Fred trying to prove this footage fake by using a fake photograph!

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=8678&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=image+impossible

Isnt it "interesting?" that my analysis never recieved ANY counter?

And BTW: No Planes Theory blown into shreds:

http://www.911disinformation.com/noplanes/NoPlanesCounterEvidence.html

What people beleive is up to them: but when it comes to 9/11, its vitally important IMHO to check out the form of the person making the claims

an admittedly quick skim through that 2nd link above ( i have a job after all)
I see the tiny engine under a canopy pics - dubious to say the least

and good old gary Welz as an eye witness to the 2nd hit - Hasn't he since admitted to NOT seeing the 2nd impact ?

I'll look again later JW but I fear you won't be 'blowing anyone away' with that mate.

cheers

[john white]

Worth mentioning that the section under the tarp is only a part of the right hand engine, what made it out of WTC2 split into three sections on the way down

[narcolepticwatchman]

Worth mentioning that the section under the tarp is only a part of the right hand engine, what made it out of WTC2 split into three sections on the way down

That doesn't matter mate.....I'm using the same technique you used to 'debunk' Freds pic to scale the engine from your photograph and unless the guy thats standing next to it is a midget, the engine is over 2 feet both in height and diameter.

[narcolepticwatchman]

"Hey where's John white? What does he think abut this? Maybe hes frightened of posting his opinion

Oh he did... and blew me away

Guess I'll call him a total tosser then!"



Defacto admission whilst you tried (and failed) to smear me

Way too amatuer!

You can play innocent all you like, but fact is your in with a nest of vipers and your own character is too flawed to realise what you are part of

Lol, i didn't actually call you a tosser.....I said you were making YOURSELF out to look like one by SPINNING my posts. But hey, don't take my word for it. Try the same thing with other people and they will tell you the same.......you still didn't tell me why you would do such a thing?

And 'blew me away'? Where are you getting that from......? And have you picked out the fake pic from your referenced site yet?

[narcolepticwatchman]

Apologies for triple posting, but I need to.....this has been annoying me.

John....you keep alluding to the fact that you 'blew' Freds theories away with a bit of expert analysis on a faked photo....please tell me what this has got to do with anything? The first time i seen this photo was when you linked to it yet you are using this forum post as the basis of your 'debunking' of the no planes theory.

So the guy used a photo which may have been faked.....could happen to anyone with the amount of shit on the net these days.........still does not detract from these valid points brought to light by his videos...

1) the angle of the shot looks pretty impossible given the footage he himself shot from battery park recently. (did the trees just spring up?)
2) Hezerkani won't divulge his location.....what is he hiding? (and the dialogue on that vid is soooooo badly acted)

Then theres Dean Warwicks argument about the delay in releasing the vid, and the fact that the plane is swallowed up by the building.....

Have you seen these videos in high resolution format? It really does make it so much more obvious.

anyways....point of the post was......well done on highlighting what looks to be a fake photo.......but still does not prove there were no planes.....not in the slightest.

[john white]

LOL! I don't need to debunk "no planes" theory, it debunks itself... I'm just making topical conversation... like how this is not fred's first attempt to "prove" the Herzerkhani footage "fake", and a previous attempt used a fake image to try and do so

Interesting co-incidence though

anyways....point of the post was......well done on highlighting what looks to be a fake photo.......but still does not prove there were no planes.....not in the slightest

Could'nt agree more, it definately does not prove their were no Planes

I love it when a subconcious slip goes the right way!

[narcolepticwatchman]

[QUOTE=john white;97736]LOL! I don't need to debunk "no planes" theory, it debunks itself... I'm just making topical conversation... like how this is not fred's first attempt to "prove" the Herzerkhani footage "fake", and a previous attempt used a fake image to try and do so
[QUOTE]


So what about the fake image on the 911 disinformation site you tried to sell everyone earlier......your not dodging the issue are you?

[john white]

LOL! I don't need to debunk "no planes" theory, it debunks itself... I'm just making topical conversation... like how this is not fred's first attempt to "prove" the Herzerkhani footage "fake", and a previous attempt used a fake image to try and do so



So what about the fake image on the 911 disinformation site you tried to sell everyone earlier......your not dodging the issue are you?

Did I provide a paypal link? Clearly then, I'm not selling anything

And its for YOU to prove that image fake (are you sure it is?): becuase thats what No Planes Theorist HAVE to do and do their best to run from accepting the responsibility for:

EVERY image MUST be fake:

EVERY eyewitness must be wrong:

EVERY sound must be fabruicated

ALL physical evidence MUST be planted

IF their were no planes, there can be NO genuine evidence of a plane: none. Nada. Zip

How interesting that, rather than rise to this challenge, which should be easy IF No Planes Theory is the Truth, the "hero's" of the No Planes Theory Fake, smear, lie, twist, decieve and delude their way across the internet, and Fuck anyone who gets in their way!, dragging a crowd of suckers with them who have too much pride and emotional investment, and yes, fear of what will happen to them if they "desert" to accept that, yet again, they have been conned

People hook into NPT for all sorts of reasons, one major one being it provides a simplicity of explanation that salves the need for people to continue to look deeper to truly understand 9/11 and what went on (especially if self imopsed perception filters make people ignore the real questions): or at least, people think it does

The truth is that No Planes Theory in a betrayal of Truthseeking and of Truthseekers and is an obstruction to exposing that 9/11 was an inside Job, not an aid

And your wiggling and projection onto me and baseless allegations that info I've provided has been shown to be fake entirely fail to cover up the point:

I exposed Fred as using a Fake image to make a NPT case, and provided catagorical proof that has recieved NO refutation from ANY NPT supporter: and there's nothing you can do about it:

Becuase it is the TRUTH!

As anyone who gives a shit can read for themselves here:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=8678&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=image+impossible

[adzboarder]

Lets not attack each other here fellas, I think we can all agree that 9/11 was an inside job, it's so blatent anyone can see it.

If you disagree with my statement above then please go ahead and prove to me that the official report on 9/11 is true.

That's gonna be a LOT harder to prove !

[john white]

Lets not attack each other here fellas, I think we can all agree that 9/11 was an inside job, it's so blatent anyone can see it.

If you disagree with my statement above then please go ahead and prove to me that the official report on 9/11 is true.

That's gonna be a LOT harder to prove !

I've stayed away from this 9/11 board for quite a while now as I couldnt be bothered feeding NPT'ers, and I couldnt speak on 9/11 without being dive bombed. I had a very good Galloway thread that Travis Bickle (yes i know who you are Prole) blatently wrecked. but I didnt kick up about it, i decided to trust the membership and if people wanted to talk what IMO is crap about fake film and holograms, why should I care?

But when I get called on here, I'm damn well going to say what I think:

I've already made my points, worthy of a serious considered legitmate response:

So don't expect me to hang around unless someone wants to be civil. I'm only going to give short shift here when my threads are gonna get wrecked

Anyone can check my Galloway Rodriguez thread and confirm what I say is true:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6146

[cruise4]

Travis Bickle... Oh Dear!

[travisbickle]

I've stayed away from this 9/11 board for quite a while now as I couldnt be bothered feeding NPT'ers, and I couldnt speak on 9/11 without being dive bombed. I had a very good Galloway thread that Travis Bickle (yes i know who you are Prole) blatently wrecked. but I didnt kick up about it, i decided to trust the membership and if people wanted to talk what IMO is crap about fake film and holograms, why should I care?

But when I get called on here, I'm damn well going to say what I think:

I've already made my points, worthy of a serious considered legitmate response:

So don't expect me to hang around unless someone wants to be civil. I'm only going to give short shift here when my threads are gonna get wrecked

Anyone can check my Galloway Rodriguez thread and confirm what I say is true:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6146


John, you're a 911 INFILTRATOR and deserve everything that's coming to you along with a few others. Infact john white isn't even your real name, it's something you chose because it rhymes with david icke. Most real truth seekers agree you're a massive JOKE pal.

[john white]

Well there you are, thats what I have to deal with

And this guy is a massive pain in the arse

Go and ask the Jon Ronson forum about "albert" and you'll see that Travis Bickle is a walking 9/11 truth own goal

[narcolepticwatchman]

I exposed Fred as using a Fake image to make a NPT case, and provided catagorical proof that has recieved NO refutation from ANY NPT supporter: and there's nothing you can do about it:

Becuase it is the TRUTH!

As anyone who gives a shit can read for themselves here:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=8678&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=image+impossible

John, first off, your image debunking, to me, proves nothing......still doesn't explain why the trees in battery park suddenly grew 20 feet.

using the same argument as yourself, what about these photos.....are they real, or fake? Lets do see some of your analysis on these bud :D

The first one appeared on the 911 Disinformation site you linked to to try to debunk NPT...... Disinformation indeed

http://killtown.911review.org/images/2nd-hit/hiny-6236.jpg

Looks strangely familiar.......?

http://killtown.911review.org/images/2nd-hit/hiny-6233.jpg

Maybe because its the same photo? Ok, i know what you are going to say.....they are 2 separate photos, taken seconds apart and while on the move to the window........yeah right.....the scale and angle is a perfect match. I'll show you the transposed images in stages when I get a chance.

[john white]

Good images. Nothing wrong with 'em

In fact looks like the cameraman for image B can be seen in image A

What problems, exactly, do you see with them?

[sidlittle]

People hook into NPT for all sorts of reasons, one major one being it provides a simplicity of explanation that salves the need for people to continue to look deeper to truly understand 9/11 and what went on (especially if self imopsed perception filters make people ignore the real questions): or at least, people think it does


:) Bloody hell

Substitute the word 'NPT' with 'conspiracy theories' throw in some nonsense about ' needing to cope with the fearful realities of the world etc. ' and then we can send this of to the BBC to be used in their next conspiracy files whitewash.

Tonight, ladies and gentlemen, John White IS ..Dr Susan Blackmore!!


Pseudo-psychological garbage.

[john white]

:) Bloody hell

Substitute the word 'NPT' with 'conspiracy theories' throw in some nonsense about ' needing to cope with the fearful realities of the world etc. ' and then we can send this of to the BBC to be used in their next conspiracy files whitewash.

Tonight, ladies and gentlemen, John White IS ..Dr Susan Blackmore!!


Pseudo-psychological garbage.

Not at all: its the only explanation for blind adherance to a belief based on the weakest evidence

Is this correct Sid? YES or NO?

EVERY image MUST be fake:

EVERY eyewitness must be wrong:

EVERY sound must be fabruicated

ALL physical evidence MUST be planted

IF their were no planes, there can be NO genuine evidence of a plane: none. Nada. Zip


Does the evidence support that? YES or NO?

ONE genuine image: ONE genuine eyewitness: and its all down the pan

Thats no Susan Blackmore smear: thats dealing with what is

Have you another explanation for why people will agressively promote delusion, other than imbalance?

[travisbickle]

Have you another explanation for why people will agressively promote delusion, other than imbalance?

Says the fool whe spent ten years trying to convince people reptiles ruled the world before trying to infiltrate the 911 movement with his plane hugging BS. If john hadn't got the last david icke forum shut down we could all have linked to the ravings of a reptile hugging mad man.

[john white]

Says the fool whe spent ten years trying to convince people reptiles ruled the world before trying to infiltrate the 911 movement with his plane hugging BS. If john hadn't got the last david icke forum shut down we could all have linked to the ravings of a reptile hugging mad man.

Thanks Travis, for proving that delusional smears, lies and pathetic attempts to manipulate are what characterises the mind set of those drawn to NPT

How far you have fallen this year!

[travisbickle]

Thanks Travis, for proving that delusional smears, lies and pathetic attempts to manipulate are what characterises the mind set of those drawn to NPT

How far you have fallen this year!

talking to yourself again doilum? sure sounds like it.

[john white]

Just what is it with you?

You know your lying, you know your just making whatever crap up you can off the top of your head, here you are, all across the internet, Mark Thomas forum, Jon Ronson forum, anywhere you can get, always the same story, multiple Ids, foul mouthed PM's, constant trolling, insult after insult after insult

What is the point of all this aggression and outwards projection? You don't acheive anything constructive from it, maybe it gets your rocks off to have a bit of an ego wank, but the comedown is always severe

Your a walking own goal, a living self inflicted wound, as far as 9/11 Truth goes. The amount of wells you've poisoned, the people it should be able to have a rational reasonable conversation with who've got totally fucked off with the whole subject becuase of you and your infantile games

You really are pathetic Prole: truly pathetic

But the worst is: I know your not some agenda muncher, I know your just a guy with some personality problems sitting at a computer keyboard projecting himself across the net

So its not as if you HAVE to be like this:

Its becuase you choose to be like this

And whilst in your head you might see yourself as some kind of crusading hero, the truth is that its you who is undermining efforts to create mass awareness that 9/11 was an inside job, its you who are therefore hindering the truth, and its you therefore who is giving succour to the sick bastards who pulled it off and are trying to turn this planet into a version of hell

for your own sake:

Just STOP

Be calm for a while

Be peaceful for a while

And if you can manage that, you will come to find there are some lying deceptive bastards who are most certainly using you: in fact, they laid a net for you and others like you and scooped you up, by design

Its a very old game, as anyone with experiance of observing COINTELPRO in UFOlogy for several years knows very well

[travisbickle]

Pls use spell checker before you trying to lecture me you illiterate degenerate fuck. I am not prole nor have ever been so please stop fantasising.

Most clued up 911ers understand the tv fakery, it's only the noobs who jumped on the bandwagon last year who are incapable of thinking outside what the infiltrated movement tell them to. I spoke to some high profile people recently in the UK recently and they all agree you were either an infiltrator or spent too much time on the dole and internet in a dope addled haze.

[john white]

Pls use spell checker before you trying to lecture me you illiterate degenerate fuck. I am not prole nor have ever been so please stop fantasising.

Most clued up 911ers understand the tv fakery, it's only the noobs who jumped on the bandwagon last year who are incapable of thinking outside what the infiltrated movement tell them to. I spoke to some high profile people recently in the UK recently and they all agree you were either an infiltrator or spent too much time on the dole and internet in a dope addled haze.

Of course you are

I spoke to some high profile people recently in the UK recently

Name names or admit bullshit, your choice

I tell you what characterises you more than anything else Prole

cowardice

[sidlittle]

Thanks Travis, for proving that delusional smears, lies and pathetic attempts to manipulate are what characterises the mind set of those drawn to NPT

How far you have fallen this year!

Do you honestly believe JW, that those undecided, will not see through your transparent attempts to marginalize those that consider the possibility of tv fakery?

This is the icke forum not channel 4.

[john white]

Do you honestly believe JW, that those undecided, will not see through your transparent attempts to marginalize those that consider the possibility of tv fakery?

This is the icke forum not channel 4.

How am I marginalizing NPT theory when its you refusing to accept the reality of the situation?

Is this correct Sid? YES or NO?

EVERY image MUST be fake:

EVERY eyewitness must be wrong:

EVERY sound must be fabricated

ALL physical evidence MUST be planted

IF there were no planes, there can be NO genuine evidence of a plane: none. Nada. Zip

Does the evidence support that? YES or NO?

ONE genuine image: ONE genuine eyewitness: and its all down the pan

[john white]

And i'd remind you that I got called onto this thread:

A lesson in being careful what one manifests, becuase if my challenge to NPT cannot be met, then its simply a question of the true seeker going where the evidence falls

[sidlittle]

How am I marginalizing NPT theory when its you refusing to accept the reality of the situation?

Is this correct Sid? YES or NO?

EVERY image MUST be fake:

EVERY eyewitness must be wrong:

EVERY sound must be fabricated

ALL physical evidence MUST be planted

IF there were no planes, there can be NO genuine evidence of a plane: none. Nada. Zip

Does the evidence support that? YES or NO?

ONE genuine image: ONE genuine eyewitness: and its all down the pan

:) Do you ever sleep white ? !
WHAT IS THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION??

WHY HAVE YOU DRAWN YOUR LINE IN THE SAND??

In response and to state the bleeding obvious Sybil;

YES, every image is fake
YES, every eye witness is mistaken or lying
YES, every piece of physical item is planted

Now, before you respond to those statements of mine, tell me what happened at the Pentagon White??

[john white]

YES, every image is fake
YES, every eye witness is mistaken or lying
YES, every piece of physical item is planted


Great, there we go then, now you've stated openly the position you are really trying to argue and to prove

So hows that going then?

All the character assasination, evidence fabrication and general smear campaigning would indicate: not so well....

Do you ever sleep white

It's for tortoises: and life is short

WHY HAVE YOU DRAWN YOUR LINE IN THE SAND??

Becuase truth matters, and my conscience does not easily allow me to be silent when I see the propogation of a theory... well a fantasy tbh... AS Truth: Absolute Truth: when it fails the criteria of truthseeking on every level

I'm not against the possibility: in fact its well within my imagination... and if there was any evidence that actually stood up for NPT, I certainly wouldnt be afraid of what other people or the public or whatever might think: truth is truth

In fact, that illustrates the failure of NPT most completely: that it cannot gain the support of a person like me

tell me what happened at the Pentagon White??

LOL! What do you think I am, a walking CCTV camera? ;)

You see Sid, this is the real sting with NPT:

General rule of truthseeking: if it supports the official story you get to see it: if it demolishes the official story: you dont

Now we have an orgy of evidence for planes at the towers and a desert of evidence for planes at the Pentagon... and practically none at shanskville

Practical question for you to un-double think around:

What's easier? Massive fabrication on a huge scale, or simple staging?

Now your being asked to believe that "finding" a bit of dodgy video that suggests that maybe its not quite kosher... if you squint at it the right way... when taken with the paucity of evidnce at the pentagon... means a single peice of Questioned footage = no planes in NYC that day... but there is a vast amount of evidence for planes in NYC!

On the other hand, the evidence we have been shown, when applied with the general rule in mind:

General rule of truthseeking: if it supports the official story you get to see it: if it demolishes the official story: you dont

Means we get to see Planes flying into the WTC... becuase Planes DID fly into the WTC... we DON'T get to see a plane fly into the Pentagon... becuase there very well may not have been a Plane at the pentagon... or shanskville

And by playing events out that way, its ensured that the actual truth is so fruit looped: neither no planes or four planes: that no-one is going to believe it and even if people did consider it, it will end up in massive arguments and a movement paraylised by having its own psychology used against it, becuase people want it all one way or all the other: all planes is easy to get a handle around, no planes is easy to get a handle around (as you have currently chosen).. but half planes and half no planes? the mind is conditioned to want to slip off that possibility: even though its where the evidence leads

Add in the inevitable clash of giant Ego's: Seigal. Haupt. Holmgren. Grable. Wood. Fetzer

And we have a school of "exciting" theories (dont forget those pods on the planes that where not there!) that will run and run and run

Get the picture?

So back to your question:

WHY HAVE YOU DRAWN YOUR LINE IN THE SAND??

I dont expect my posting to make any particular difference: I dont see myself as someone special or more insightful or more intelligent than anyone else

But I do what I can do becuase I can do it, and thats all anyone can do and all we ever need to do

The question is:

Does what I say stand up?

If it doesn't, why are you in anyway concerned about what effect my opinion may have on peoples view of NPT? Why bother to talk to me at all? Why give me energy and attention?

Is it a form of curiosity becuase there is some sense in what I say?

[irie_dave]

Hi

Dame, I agree we are all entitled to our opinions but I just dont buy the fake plane scenario. I really think that aircraft hit the towers, look at military footage of missile hitting 6inch thick steel warships, a projectile at speed would do as it is seen in the video.

911 conspiracy is a diversion from personal evolution, dont get bogged down in all this stuff.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. No planes hit the towers is a diversion, 9-11 truth is extremely important 100s of people die because of this event every week.

[travisbickle]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. No planes hit the towers is a diversion, 9-11 truth is extremely important 100s of people die because of this event every week.

The TV fakery side is equally as sick as the WTC demolition, the fact the perps had it planned out so much they inserted fake planes into live news broadcast, it demonstrated the 911 octopus is far deeper than the Bush mafia and 'zionists'.

Fact is all this footage is faker than silicon tits -


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8506/cnnkz3.gif

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5541/spiegelxl1.gif

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5965/fairbanks2zz0.gif

Why would they need to broadcast so many fakes if it actually occured.

A few other planes were seen in the sky around the WTC which didn't hit the buildings too, maybe that's what witnesses saw?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sW1hKs6Ljfo < gengis has 11 videos of other planes seen in the skies on 911 which didn't hit the WTC.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen!

My position is: Two Jetliners hit the world Trade Towers.(full stop). Consider first, Rumsfelds prior modification of Air Force 'Intercept Protocols' resulting in 9/11 Commission Report of THREE different reasons for the obvious 'Stand Down'. The last three planes could have been all intercepted, and the first plane also if the original 'Protocols' were not modified. Why the modification of 'Intercept Protocols'?, if no planes are part of the event.

Then there is the large breach in the outside columns where the Plane entered, humans where seen standing in this breach. Then the large amount of flaming fuel that cascaded out of one tower burning people on the ground below, one woman in a bus shelter who later succumbed due to massive burns.

Debris of aircraft on streets below, landing gear, engine components.
Downtown Manhattan is a densely populated area with enough 'Free Thinkers', no way the PTBs could place evidence without being seen by dozens if not hundreds of people.

As for the Pentagon, the most heavily defended building on Planet Earth, a deliberate 'Stand Down' of all defensive systems, Surface to Air Missile batteries that respond automatically to 'Friend or Foe' signals from aircrafts
transponders. I don't think a 757 hit it, the Tail assembly at least would have left evidence(note roof line) and wing components. The Skyhawk A4 or Global Hawk scenarios seem more likely, add Minettas comments about events in the bunker concerning cheney and the inquiring aide.

Shanksville, a real mystery.

Bottomline, the 'Smoking Gun' is the 9/11 Commision Report itself, riddled with LIES. As David Ray Griffith has so clearly pointed out.

The 'Shame' is the Majority of the American public just not giving a shit.

My Position: Planes hit the Towers

Sad but Firm Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[travisbickle]

Debris of aircraft on streets below, landing gear, engine components.
Downtown Manhattan is a densely populated area with enough 'Free Thinkers', no way the PTBs could place evidence without being seen by dozens if not hundreds of people.


Nobody seemed to notice the WTC being rigged with explosives, any idea how much TNT would have been required?
More likely a mini nuke turned the structure to dust in 12 seconds.

Can you explain how this rubber tyre survived the carnage?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings travisbickle!

First: I agree with the 'Thermate' cutting charges. As a former Level 'A' New York Union Labourer, I am expert in the 'Art' of demolition.

Since the 1993 'attack' on one tower, the purpose of which was to topple the tower, wreaking catastrophic havoc, a 'Plan was to bring them down if neccessary. As a construction worker I had unfettered access to anyplace in a building I desired to go. 'They' had 8 years to place charges, The well known 'Power Down' a few weeks prior to the 9/11 event was opportunity to 'Final Check' all materiels already in place and make final adjustments.

A 'Micro Nuke,' very possible to pulverise concrete, but just one part of the equation. Anecdotal reports claimed the core columns were all short enough to load on 40' flat beds without additional cutting.

The Professor from Utah, Dr.Young?, has conclusively proven the use of thermate from samples of steel reserved for memorials, this was an 'Oversight, miss' of the PTBs. 'They' fucked up.

The attempt by Bush to place Henry Kissinger as Head of the investigation made my Bullshit Meter blow up into a Kijillion Pieces.

I will examine the Tyre link and report back later. I will say, having substantial experience in demolition, 'strange' things do occur.

Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[infinitetruth]

hmm, a micro nuke would make my avatar even more prophetic or rather more suspicious!

In any case I would rather dismiss the whole NPT. Whether it is true or not, doesn't matter - what's important is that 9/11 is exposed and focusing on the NPT is NOT going to help the situation.

Someo of the images are strange, and I do have an open mind as to what went on. BUT I really wish that the NPT never happened, the credibility of the 9/11 truth movement has been damaged by it. There is so much more credible evidence out there then searching for some 'holy grail' of 9/11.

[hagbard_celine]

The TV fakery side is equally as sick as the WTC demolition, the fact the perps had it planned out so much they inserted fake planes into live news broadcast, it demonstrated the 911 octopus is far deeper than the Bush mafia and 'zionists'.

Fact is all this footage is faker than silicon tits -


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8506/cnnkz3.gif

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5541/spiegelxl1.gif

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5965/fairbanks2zz0.gif

Why would they need to broadcast so many fakes if it actually occured.

A few other planes were seen in the sky around the WTC which didn't hit the buildings too, maybe that's what witnesses saw?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sW1hKs6Ljfo < gengis has 11 videos of other planes seen in the skies on 911 which didn't hit the WTC.


There is a pall of smoke coming from the near face of the tower in the third series, but in the others it's absent. Strange.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Grreetings travisbickle!:

I have now observed the Tyre in question. At the New York State Museum in Albany New York they have numerous artifacts from that shameful day on exhibit, no doubt a permanent exhibit. I have some fotos of these. A couple appear to be a wheel assembly with the rubber burnt off, also a complete fire truck with tyres burnt off and the paint of the truck cab is burnt off. Just behind the cab of the truck is the large diamond plate control panel for valve handles and pressure gauges. The paint on the Valve Wheels are still bright yellow and red.The entire panel appears 'Pristine'.

Due to oddities and variables, objects adjacent to each other may sustain different levels of damage, my experience has demonstrated this to me.
In the case of the wheel assembly in question, start at the beginning. The landing gear was within the gear housing(retracted) upon initial impact. Centrifigul
Forces ripped the fuselage apart throwing pieces of the plane about, I think there are fotos of this particular assembly on the ground after impact.

I have responded to your queries, now please answer mine concerning Rumsfelds altering well established 'Intercept Protocols'. Also the 'coincidence' of 'training exercises' of the exact scenario that took place.

I await your response.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[narcolepticwatchman]

Peace & Greetings travisbickle!

First: I agree with the 'Thermate' cutting charges. As a former Level 'A' New York Union Labourer, I am expert in the 'Art' of demolition.

Since the 1993 'attack' on one tower, the purpose of which was to topple the tower, wreaking catastrophic havoc, a 'Plan was to bring them down if neccessary. As a construction worker I had unfettered access to anyplace in a building I desired to go. 'They' had 8 years to place charges, The well known 'Power Down' a few weeks prior to the 9/11 event was opportunity to 'Final Check' all materiels already in place and make final adjustments.

A 'Micro Nuke,' very possible to pulverise concrete, but just one part of the equation. Anecdotal reports claimed the core columns were all short enough to load on 40' flat beds without additional cutting.

The Professor from Utah, Dr.Young?, has conclusively proven the use of thermate from samples of steel reserved for memorials, this was an 'Oversight, miss' of the PTBs. 'They' fucked up.

The attempt by Bush to place Henry Kissinger as Head of the investigation made my Bullshit Meter blow up into a Kijillion Pieces.

I will examine the Tyre link and report back later. I will say, having substantial experience in demolition, 'strange' things do occur.

Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

The basis of the thermite / thermate case is video footage of molten metal pouring from the towers. When questioned about the possibility of the metal being aluminium, Steve jones says that its impossible because aluminium does not glow red. This was disproven by the now deceased student of Dr Judy wood, Michael Zebuhr. There is also the very well presented 'billiard ball analysis' carried out by Dr Wood. This analysis, based on the force of gravity and the time of the collapses, proves that the buildings could not have 'pancaked' and also rules out the use of thermite alone (although it could theoretically be possible with a combination of thermite and explosives however, the quantities required would be enormous)

I don't buy the mini nuke theory either. Been doing a lot of research on Tesla technologies of late and I think that the more likely solution would be directed energy weaponry. The stuff that Tesla developed, erased from history for around 100 years, is scary.

[narcolepticwatchman]

Peace & Grreetings travisbickle!:

I have now observed the Tyre in question. At the New York State Museum in Albany New York they have numerous artifacts from that shameful day on exhibit, no doubt a permanent exhibit. I have some fotos of these. A couple appear to be a wheel assembly with the rubber burnt off, also a complete fire truck with tyres burnt off and the paint of the truck cab is burnt off. Just behind the cab of the truck is the large diamond plate control panel for valve handles and pressure gauges. The paint on the Valve Wheels are still bright yellow and red.The entire panel appears 'Pristine'.

Due to oddities and variables, objects adjacent to each other may sustain different levels of damage, my experience has demonstrated this to me.
In the case of the wheel assembly in question, start at the beginning. The landing gear was within the gear housing(retracted) upon initial impact. Centrifigul
Forces ripped the fuselage apart throwing pieces of the plane about, I think there are fotos of this particular assembly on the ground after impact.

I have responded to your queries, now please answer mine concerning Rumsfelds altering well established 'Intercept Protocols'. Also the 'coincidence' of 'training exercises' of the exact scenario that took place.

I await your response.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

Your observations tie in very well with some of the photography of vehcles in the vacinity of the towers on 9/11. Very unusual damage, warped metal, burnt areas etc whilst some parts look brand new. Theres vehicles on their roofs, etc. the strange thing is, some of these cars are quite a distance away from the towers and there is no way they could have been hit with debris from the towers.

Have a look for yourself.......

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/StarWarsBeam5.html#toasted

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings narcolepticwatchman!:

I was aware of the 'Observation' of the flow as the initial cause of Dr. Youngs interest. But he has asserted he retreived actual residue from steel beams that were reserved for memorials. I know of some of these beams in my area. This residue was analyised in a Laboratory, providing proof of Thermate, much more powerful than Thermite. I personally have cut many large beams using Liquid Oxygen and Propane torches.

Consider how quickly the steel was removed, by Union Teamsters who were under very rigid orders to not deviate from their routes or schedules, transporting the steel from Manhattan to Staten Island. One Teamster was fired for taking an unauthorised break enroute to Staten Island. All the trucks were equipped with GPS and monitored. Fire Engineering Magazine, a Trade Journal for Fire Safety Professionals, declared it a crime the steel was sent to China without careful forensic scrutiny.

And what about the lengths of the steel box columns that comprised the core, they were uniform in length?

Everyone interested in the Towers should read: Men of Steel by Karl Koch, owner of the firm that erected the steel. Great specificity as to their construction.

The pools of Molten Steel begs for explanation.

The 9/11 commission report was pure fraud.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[narcolepticwatchman]

Heres my thoughts for what they are worth.....

The energy weaponry theory is the most credible to me. This is a majorly big deal. The military have had this technology in their hands for the best part of a century.......yet we haven't seen any of it. Its still in development according to them. Yeah right. And haarp is just an experiment. Haarp is actually an advanced version (i say that because its modern and its BIG) of Teslas famous 'death ray' ideas. Tesla proposed to put a number of these all around the globe as a mechanism to end all wars.......then he realised that the people running the show were crazy, so he stopped working on it. But I digress. My point was, they wan't to keep their invisible weapons secret......they are so much more useful that way and the people don't get upset.........its perfect......so perfect that they would do anything to protect its privacy.......even if it means trying to hoodwink the world using shady computer graphics and mass media manipulation. Its working.

Then there is the planes / no planes argument. I used to be a plane hugger.....right up until a few months ago. Now I see it as so fake. They couldn't use planes because they didn't know what would happen when they struck the towers. What if they didn;t make a hole at all? how could they explain the building collapse. Anyone who has ever done any risk management will realise what I am going on about. They had to see the damage a plane would cause to the towers as an uncalculatable risk. There would have been a very high probability that things would not have gone to plan......and they most certainly had a plan......everyone who has researched 9/11 thouroughly enough should agree that they had a plan......that plan was to simulate terrorist attacks on the towers and the pentagon that would eventually cause the total collapse of the 3 buildings and a section of the pentagon. (then invade countries in a manner akin to the nazis of course) Now if there is a major risk in your plan which may have a serious effect on the credibility of your story when the plan unfolds, you are going to try to manage the risk. How do you do that then? You make it look like a plane, but you use a weapon which you know will cause the damage you require. Its a bigger job, granted, but I have no doubts that these people could pull it off. Payoffs, secrets acts, secret societys, fear, intimidation, murders. They can play every card and they have a very large arsenal of sneaky tactics.

The main things for me, that bring me to this conclusion.

The contradicting flight paths in the different videos.
The first hand witness telephone calls. All but one from a media group employee and lies about seeing impacts when they wouldn't be able to see.
The coaching of witnesses in the background of telephone calls when describing the pentagon crash
the impossible angle of the hezerkani video
the faked soundtracks of the hezerkani videos
Non consistent soundtracks....some you hear planes, some no planes, some whistle etc
the non-willingness of hezerkani to disclose his location when shooting the film
the obvious scripted line in the hezerkani video
The nose out
No exit holes for engines and landing gears (remember, the landing gear is what supposedly cause the 8ft DIAMETER punch out at the pentagon)
Delayed exlosion
Scripted news & prereporting
17 second delay
Wescams
Rodriguez claims that NPT is hurtful to the families of the victims. Fox news tactic.
The lack of passinger manifests.
Not one single aircrash investigation was carried out. These are mandatory.



The list is non exhaustive but for me, that seals the deal. John White keeps going on about if conclusive evidence of one real plane emerges, then NPT falls flat on its face. I'm of the thinking that if ONE piece of evidence emerges that there was footage, or witness statements FAKED on 911, then prove to me that the rest is not fabricated as well, because this shit stinks big time. There has been tv fakery for sure. Its plain (npi) for all to see........and if this the extent they have gone to to hide their real methods of destruction, what on earth are they hiding?

Finally......they faked the Zapruder film......its not like they don't have the experience, technology and personnel to do it again now is it?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings narcolepticwatchman!:

Thank you for this informative post. I definitely feel a 'Directed Energy' weapon was used(Tesla was Brilliant), what else explains 'Atomized Concrete. In Towers such as these the concrete is usually a 40,000 pounds per square inch mix. Very strong. Complete atomization of all concrete and interior furniture, still leaves the conveiniently cut core steel/

My friend, have no doubt a 757 aloft at speed over 300 mph will certainly punch a hole through the exterior aluminium columns. As for angle and location of footage of video. Forced Logic and Deductive Reasoning will determine that(i'll get back to you on that, I know the area very well and have worked in the Towers).

Neither you nor travisbickle have adressed my query. Why did Rumsfeld change, long standing 'Protocols of Intercept' modifying Chain of Command.
This is key. This coincides with the 'coincidence' of practice drills whose scenarios were exactly like what actually occured.

End of the day, I think we all agree the 9/11 commission report was a piece shit. A new investigation is what is required.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[narcolepticwatchman]

Neither you nor travisbickle have adressed my query. Why did Rumsfeld change, long standing 'Protocols of Intercept' modifying Chain of Command.
This is key. This coincides with the 'coincidence' of practice drills whose scenarios were exactly like what actually occured.

End of the day, I think we all agree the 9/11 commission report was a piece shit. A new investigation is what is required.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

I think there were reasons for that obviously. If there were 'fake' planes, they would still be problems if the protocols remained unchanged. I mean, what if fighters were scrambled by some high ranking soldier.......only to get there and find that there were no planes there? Blips on the radar....but no planes? Their story would be blown straight away. Same goes for the pentagon. Cheney was asked if the order still stood. He could have scrambled the fighters himself. A Colonel would have already scrambled the jets........but to intercept what?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace & Greetings narcolepticwatchman:

I must say that last response gave me pause, as I was in Albany NY when this shameful event occured, I did not see it in person with my own eyes, just on the telly.

Please indulge me. What are the NPTers theory concerning the crew and passengers on claimed erzatz Aerocraft? and even the Aerocraft themselves? Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[travisbickle]

My friend, have no doubt a 757 aloft at speed over 300 mph will certainly punch a hole through the exterior aluminium columns. As for angle and location of footage of video. Snoopsnuffleopagus

The exterior columns were made of STEEL.

[narcolepticwatchman]

Peace & Greetings narcolepticwatchman:

I must say that last response gave me pause, as I was in Albany NY when this shameful event occured, I did not see it in person with my own eyes, just on the telly.

Please indulge me. What are the NPTers theory concerning the crew and passengers on claimed erzatz Aerocraft? and even the Aerocraft themselves? Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

To my knowledge, there were NO passenger manifests for either of the flights which reportedly crashed into the towers. Also, see 'Operation Northwoods'. They planned for flight and crew lists to be faked for a simulated plane crash over the ocean in this document...... is it so implausible for them to actually try to pull this off this time?

[narcolepticwatchman]

The exterior columns were made of STEEL.

Tis true, the exterior colums were 14" square box columns varying in thickness as the tower height increased, obviously due to the fact that the lower columns had more weight to support than those further up.

[john white]

But your IGNORING the fact that that exterior lattice was made of prefab sections, each one two floors high, that interlocked in a staggered fashion

That made multiple weak points along the welds for the plane to crash through: which is exactly what it did, along the joints of the lattice sections

This can clearly be seen by the linear nature of the breaks in the exterior:

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3263/wtcholeuw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

To suggest that a Plane is not capable of penetrating the exterior of the building is the height of stupidity

Especially since half the NPT camp reckons it was a missile: whats the difference?

Why wouldnt a missile just bounce off by this fruit loop logic the two of you are convincing yourself with (God knows why: or how!)?

of course, the other half of NPT has a 40,000 gallon fuel air bomb situated on the requisite floor: thats credible! (sic()

And BOTH has shaped cutter charges places to make a plane shaped hole in this exterior lattice FROM THE OUTSIDE

Did they have long arms to reach out from the windows in order to place that shit and pull that off?

I'll tell you one thing this thread has proved

That the brutal and malicous assault on Herzikani's character is just an excuse to continue to cheerlead this crap around the internet

I'm the last person to place logic and reason at the centre of the universe:

Nevertheless, NPT is a CULT of unreason

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen, Mr. Bickle and Narcolepticwatchman:

Mr. Bickle and Narcolepticwatchman, I, Snoopsnuffleopagus, stand corrected, as to materiel of exterior columns. They were steel not aluminium. Thank You.

My next query as to nature and source of cascading burning fuel has been fielded by Mr. White in above post.

The only certain conclusions I have come to concerning that shameful day are: A 757 did not hit the Pentagon, The Second Tower could have been evacuated, government being aware other 'planes' were offcourse.
Due to prior change of 'Intercept Protocols' and the 'Chain of Command', this places events in the 'Made It Happen On Purpose'.

'Planes or No Planes' is secondary to the primary goal of 'Who'. Conclusively determine 'Who', and all other aspects will be illuminated.

The 9/11 commission report failed in its duties to the people of the world, for the people of the world have felt the ramifications of this event.

The Congress of the United States have been negligent for allowing the 9/11 Commission Report to be accepted. It is proven flawed, this is unacceptable!

Again, thank you for answering my queries.

Respectfully Yours: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[travisbickle]

That the brutal and malicous assault on Herzikani's character is just an excuse to continue to cheerlead this crap around the internet




Fuk me, you are an infiltrator, I thought david shayler was bad but this takes the biscuit.

[narcolepticwatchman]

But your IGNORING the fact that that exterior lattice was made of prefab sections, each one two floors high, that interlocked in a staggered fashion

That made multiple weak points along the welds for the plane to crash through: which is exactly what it did, along the joints of the lattice sections

This can clearly be seen by the linear nature of the breaks in the exterior:

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3263/wtcholeuw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

To suggest that a Plane is not capable of penetrating the exterior of the building is the height of stupidity

Especially since half the NPT camp reckons it was a missile: whats the difference?

Why wouldnt a missile just bounce off by this fruit loop logic the two of you are convincing yourself with (God knows why: or how!)?

of course, the other half of NPT has a 40,000 gallon fuel air bomb situated on the requisite floor: thats credible! (sic()

And BOTH has shaped cutter charges places to make a plane shaped hole in this exterior lattice FROM THE OUTSIDE

Did they have long arms to reach out from the windows in order to place that shit and pull that off?

I'll tell you one thing this thread has proved

That the brutal and malicous assault on Herzikani's character is just an excuse to continue to cheerlead this crap around the internet

I'm the last person to place logic and reason at the centre of the universe:

Nevertheless, NPT is a CULT of unreason

John, lets get one thing straight. I am not ignoring anything. Look at my previous post which blew you right out of the water.....you know, the one that you never replied to......or is this your reply? lol have you suddenly done a degree in mechanical engineering or have you got some feedback off another friend?? I mean, to say to me that my reasoning is the height of stupidity, when you have limited knowledge on the subject, that would be stupid no?

It is true that welds are common 'stress raisers' and will be weak points on the steel. however, correct me if am wrong, but the box columns on the outside of the building. Your weak point is at a junction between vertical box columns and horizontal cross braces. To get to that weak point, you need to pass through, or severely deform the 14" square box columns of varying thickness. Even then, the damage would be to the horizontal braces which would more than likely pop off.

You are trying to tell me that a wing tip (laden with fuel lol) can slice through or severely deform a series of vertical standing, 14" thick square box columns? Remembering the 'box' statement. This means that they are 14 inches deep as well friend. The sides are what give the section its strength. Get a ruler, and bend it. Now turn it on its side, and try to bend it in the same direction as before. See where I'm getting at.......were talking structural steel versus aluminium. Look at the bird strike photos to see what damage they do to aluminium.

The pic below shows that there are columns sheared in their centres. Close to where the lower engine would be and further left where the wing should be.

http://killtown.911review.org/images/wtc-gallery/nist1-5d/2-2_wtc1-impact-hole-woman.jpg

Bear in mind the ruler statement.

And finally.....the most important point of all.....and one which you Mr white have failed to consider in your analysis. For every weak point our structural steel sections have, your plane has a hundred more.......yet not one bit falls off during the impact. Explain that.

[narcolepticwatchman]

Btw John, where in your nicely grouped halves of the NPT's do energy weapons fit in? I have not seen you talk about these theories I don't think. have you researched Tesla and HAARP? What are your thoughts on them and the technology? I'm interested.

[john white]

You are trying to tell me that a wing tip (laden with fuel lol)

Do you have the faintest understanding of the effect of mass and speed?

can slice through or severely deform a series of vertical standing, 14" thick square box columns?

No I'm not: theres no need to slice columns, as you consistantly can't seem to grasp: though that doesnt make it impossible

Cause enough force to stress and break welds: no problem: deform the metal: more than likely

Why can't you grasp the basics?

Btw John, where in your nicely grouped halves of the NPT's do energy weapons fit in

Totally irrelevant. The only defacto connection between NPT and BW/DEW is that it tends to be the same excitable people pushing them both:

But there could quite happily be planes and still a need for a method to destroy the towers would have to be found

You guys can beleive this farcical theory as much as you like, persuade as many people to join you as you can

It doesnt make any difference:

The evidence is still showing it to be a delusion

[narcolepticwatchman]

Do you have the faintest understanding of the effect of mass and speed?



No I'm not: theres no need to slice columns, as you consistantly can't seem to grasp: though that doesnt make it impossible

Cause enough force to stress and break welds: no problem: deform the metal: more than likely

Why can't you grasp the basics?



Totally irrelevant. The only defacto connection between NPT and BW/DEW is that it tends to be the same excitable people pushing them both:

But there could quite happily be planes and still a need for a method to destroy the towers would have to be found

You guys can beleive this farcical theory as much as you like, persuade as many people to join you as you can

It doesnt make any difference:

The evidence is still showing it to be a delusion

John, I like the way you are trying to lecture a mechanical engineer about 'that basics' lol. You are some piece of work. Do i need to highlight the picture to point out the blatantly obvious SHEARED box columns?

And we continue to glass over my most important point from my last post......that my friend is basic.

[narcolepticwatchman]

So you think there may be a case for DEW? Btw, its not totally irrelevant. For a 911 researcher you are forgetting about some major theories. Dean Warwick, one of the first proponents of NPT, did not think there was a missile or explosives that caused the damage.......he believed it was infrasound.

[john white]

What this?

And finally.....the most important point of all.....and one which you Mr white have failed to consider in your analysis. For every weak point our structural steel sections have, your plane has a hundred more.......yet not one bit falls off during the impact. Explain that

there were loads of bits of Planes scattered all over the place: and the high res film clearly shows plane debris showing down

Another fact your in denial of

Makes it easier than having to declare them all "planted", doesnt it?

John, I like the way you are trying to lecture a mechanical engineer about 'that basics'

Thats nice.

mechanical engineer

Prove it

Becuase based on your comments I see no reason to accept that at face value!

[john white]

Any other points for me to shoot down for you?

Because if you can't respond to all the points I've placed above, thats defacto agreement

[travisbickle]

What this?



there were loads of bits of Planes scattered all over the place: and the high res film clearly shows plane debris showing down



you are LYING AGAIN, there in no impact from the plane in the money shot.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8506/cnnkz3.gif

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/articles/sep06/ste41.jpeg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/muckletoon/Bird-v-Plane.jpg

[narcolepticwatchman]

What this?



there were loads of bits of Planes scattered all over the place: and the high res film clearly shows plane debris showing down

Another fact your in denial of

Makes it easier than having to declare them all "planted", doesnt it?



Thats nice.



Prove it

Becuase based on your comments I see no reason to accept that at face value!


Prove it? I don't need to prove nothing to you my friend. What you want me to do? Post my qualifications and experience all over the net? Lol, yeah right, like that might happen. I have the feeling that even if I did prove it.......you would still not believe it.....thats just the type of bloke you seem to be.

In all of the videos I have seen, there is no debris which falls to the ground prior to the explosion.....which does not occur til the FULL plane is tucked inside.

And there are sheared columns. This is what they are trying to make us believe.....

http://killtown.911review.org/images/wtc-gallery/nist1-2d/5-55_wing-impact.jpg

Look at what the wing....still intact has done to not one, but THREE 14" square box columns. not that the point of failure show in their diagram is not at the welded area but in the centre of the box column. Not that this point of failure is also nearer the centre of the lattice........not at the top or bottom where you have half the joints.

I seriously cannot believe how you can be so condesending and arrogant about stuff you clearly don't know jack about.

[john white]

Prove it? I don't need to prove nothing to you my friend

Yep, I know that's how you and Travis work... its how the whole NPT argument works.

CLAIMING something and BELIEVING it is all that version of truthseeking considers it has to do

Thats why its a fringe opinion that fails to convince 95% of the 9/11 Truth community

But hey, you don't need to prove anything, right?

Just support baseless smears against people like Herzerkhani, Rodriguez, albanese etc etc etc and hope enough mud sticks that someone will get fooled into thinking you must be onto something becuase they don't look deep enough to realise what a joke NPT is

[john white]

In all of the videos I have seen, there is no debris which falls to the ground prior to the explosion.....which does not occur til the FULL plane is tucked inside.


Yep, thats becuase you've not looked to find them. The difference between the source material and stuff which has been through "fredfication" or "Webfairyisation" is TRULY shocking

[john white]

If you two really believe you have found the absolute truth in NPT, what would it hurt you to go back to basics, start researching all over again, and carefully double check through absoklutely everything to be sure you've reached the final and sound conclusion?

IF you are right, you ability to argue the case would be imporved 100 fold: if you are NOT right: well you'd get yourself out of a hole, wouldnt you?

I'm not going to provide the evidence for you here, becuase you will just ignore it or claim its not relevant: its a pearls before swine situation, and I don't play that game: in particular, its not worth my energy

But if you are not really sure that you absolutely have carefully considered your position and the impact of the behaviour from the NPT camp, and you lend your support becuase you are too lazy-arsed to make absoltuely sure you are presenting the best evidence for the best case and doing the right thing, then you are ultimately highly irresponsible and tools of the coverup

[john white]

http://killtown.911review.org/images/wtc-gallery/nist1-2d/5-55_wing-impact.jpg

Duh! Why is this a problem for me? I SAID that columns could be sheared: your the guy claiming they can't!

WHERES YOUR MATHS IF YOUR AN "ENGINEER"!

LOL!

[john white]

There is a pall of smoke coming from the near face of the tower in the third series, but in the others it's absent. Strange.

Hagbard: the smoke is coming from WTC1, not WTC2 (about to be hit): the lighting in the shot is such that its hiding the edge of the tower, and the smoke is obscuring the top of WTC1 so it looks like a single face, but infact its WTC2 with WTC1 further back combined that you can see in the frame

[narcolepticwatchman]

http://killtown.911review.org/images/wtc-gallery/nist1-2d/5-55_wing-impact.jpg

Duh! Why is this a problem for me? I SAID that columns could be sheared: your the guy claiming they can't!

WHERES YOUR MATHS IF YOUR AN "ENGINEER"!

LOL!


John, at no point suring this entire discussion have you claimed the columns were sheared. You have quite clearly stated that the failures would occur at the joints and WELDS. You are changing your position more than a $2 whore with a bad tick.

Where is my maths! lol. You are in the wrong job (if you have one). You should be top of the bill at the comedy club tonight. In fact, I know a few people, I can make a few calls...........

[narcolepticwatchman]

John, back to a point i made earlier. There has been fakery braodcast on the TV. Do you agree or disagree?

Just a few 'stonewall' examples......

Faked sound tracks on the Hezerkani films

Coached witnesses and false witness statements

Tampered archive footage (wtf is the 'ball')

Your thoughts if you may.....

[sidlittle]

there were loads of bits of Planes scattered all over the place: and the high res film clearly shows plane debris showing down

In all of the videos I have seen, there is no debris which falls to the ground prior to the explosion.....which does not occur til the FULL plane is tucked inside.

Yep, thats becuase you've not looked to find them. The difference between the source material and stuff which has been through "fredfication" or "Webfairyisation" is TRULY shocking

To anyone following this who has some doubts on this issue and is unsure who is shilling (if anyone of course), I urge you to get hold of a DVD of this Hezerkhani footage -its on 'America Remembers' or '911 In Plane site' for example.

Watching 'in plane site' on DVD on a 42in screen the vid compression argument falls apart.

For me, what is equally as interesting as the plane 'buttering' through the steel columns and reinforced concrete floors is in fact the first few frames of the footage - on DVD the 'watercolour' effects of the plane over the blue sky are quite apparent and indicate (imho) obvious CGI.

[narcolepticwatchman]

Just to further back up my previous post.......

But your IGNORING the fact that that exterior lattice was made of prefab sections, each one two floors high, that interlocked in a staggered fashion

That made multiple weak points along the welds for the plane to crash through: which is exactly what it did, along the joints of the lattice sections

This can clearly be seen by the linear nature of the breaks in the exterior:

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3263/wtcholeuw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

To suggest that a Plane is not capable of penetrating the exterior of the building is the height of stupidity


Do you have the faintest understanding of the effect of mass and speed?



No I'm not: theres no need to slice columns, as you consistantly can't seem to grasp: though that doesnt make it impossible

Cause enough force to stress and break welds: no problem: deform the metal: more than likely

Why can't you grasp the basics?


Yeah.....you ALWAYS maintained the columns would shear.:D:D:D

I'm actually getting abit paranoid now........for you to continually post lies an nonsense, directly contradicting your previous posts, maintaining your concrete stance on the use of planes, combined with your involvement in almost every popular 9/11 forum discussion on the WEB, I am beggining to think more and more that you are a shill. If thats the case....I better watch what I'm saying eh?

Can't keep blowing your arguments away without putting myself in some danger if you are indeed one of 'them' can I?:D:D:D

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen!:

I have always, 'out of hand',dismissed the NPT theory as 'Do-able', but very unlikely. But I have to say, deep down in my subconscious, lay the 4" re-inforced concrete slabs on 'Q' decks made of steel.

The 'Planes' angle of entry does suggest it would have struck these rigid masses, thus impedeing forward momentum at points of contact.

It's a real 'pisser'

Colour me Bewildered!, Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

What is up with that?

[mr_moon]

You know this saddens me. You sound like arguing politicians, complaining and moaning about each others views, about what may or may not have happened, who is this and who is that... maybe you should all take a big step back, look at yourselves and observe how you are behaving. What are you doing?

Your Minds have become so engrossed, so wrapped up in the external workings of the World and how it is presenting itself to you, that you have completely lost all perception of your True Self.

How can you expect any good to come of this? How can you expect any Love or Passion to emerge from this bickering and scoffing? How many years, decades, have we witnessed the Political Views and Conflicts occurring? Has it ever brought Peace and Harmony? NEVER...

Sorry to be harsh but THIS is reality. Why do you think these things happen? People dying, people killing and fighting? The internal workings of the Human Being have been twisted and contorted and conditioned so far out of Natural Shape and Balance, that it is US who allow these things to happen in the first place. Whether it is real or not people have died- it is a lesson. We either CONTINUE to persue these ghosts around every 9/11 , Al Qaieda, Terrorists, UFO Invasion CORNER... or we take a look at ourselves and begin working on that.

These events DEMAND a reaction, they demand we respond in some form or another by fighting or arguing... do this and they've got you under control. This is how it works.

These people in Power (with knowledge...) KNOW that to keep the Human Being in SURVIVAL mode is the way to control. But we are evolving out of that quickly and if you stay in it, if you continue to allow these persuasions to influence your behaviour in such a way, then good luck to you.

Please consider my words.

Much Love to You All,

Jay
xxx

[mr_moon]

Additional:

These events, Reptilians, UFO's, Terrorism, Government, Policies ALL of this goes much, much deeper than this. They are all in place to keep us diverted not from what ELSE may be going on in the World but diverted from OURSELVES!! They don't want us to start going inside our own Minds and rooting out all the conditioning. They don't want us to acknowledge our Powerful, Eternal Consciousness. And you know what? They've even managed to convince some of US that WE don't think it exists...

...now THAT is a conspiracy.

[john white]

John, back to a point i made earlier. There has been fakery braodcast on the TV. Do you agree or disagree?

Just a few 'stonewall' examples......

Faked sound tracks on the Hezerkani films

Coached witnesses and false witness statements

Tampered archive footage (wtf is the 'ball')

Your thoughts if you may.....

All bullshit that you believe as dogma

[mr_moon]

Please read my posting xxx

[john white]

Please read my posting xxx

I did. And whilst I agree with it, it doesnt change anything immediately

The only option is to walk away:

Which I did

These guys attracted me back to their thread, and becuase they did, they can have a blast of truth, but i certainly dont expect to get through to them

at best, further down the line some of it may get through and might make a difference:

Same as your comments

If you believe in your message Mr Moon take it to www.911researchers.com and see if you can get through to them

And when you discover the consciousness that has the "leaders" over there in its grip, I know you will recognise it

[mr_moon]

I may just do that...!

Much Love,

Jay
xxx

[neutron flux]

I don't subscribe to the NPT because what of all the eyewitnesses who saw the second plane hitting with their own eyes, not to mention the live T.V. footage?

Here's some other angles of the second plane hitting, most of them taken from live footage:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

9-11 crash different camera angles! - YouTube

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings & Salutations!: neutron flux:

Excellent points neutron flux: Thousands of eyewitnesses and hundreds of cameras where focused upon the Towers.

Kind Regards!L Snoopsnuffleopagus

[them]

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8506/cnnkz3.gif

Cool. See those puffs of white smoke coming from the engines exhausts as the turbines munched their way through the glass?

[travisbickle]

Thousands of eyewitnesses and hundreds of cameras where focused upon the Towers.




Thousands of eye witness, i don't think so.



And we only got 30 different bits of footage of 'flight 175' and most contradict each other.


And what witnesses is flux using to prove his point, William Rodriguez, Eric Shawn or Gary Welz?

And Them, it seems the animators wanted you to believe the puffs belonged to the turbines, you ought to watch some vidz on the construction of the WTC because it wasn't made of butter.

http://www.swaygogear.com/hotknife/Hot%20knife%20thumb.jpg

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentleman, Mr. Bickle & Mr. White, Greeting & Salutation!:

Mr. Bickle, I'll give you the 'Hundreds of cameras', I was perhaps overly optimistic. but I am sure the second tower was in the viewfinder of many 'citizen' photographers.

In NYC every other person is a 'photographer. Likewise, in NYC, densely populated. Downtown Manhattan has been described as 'asshole to elbow' crowded during the day. Definitly thousands of eye witnesses. I think a study of all the still photos with their 'Time Stamps', would be helpful.

Moments after the first tower was struck, everybody(ok, alot) in downtown Manhattan, New Jersey riverside and the Brooklyn waterfront(shoutout to Red Hook!) were watching the Tower burn. Both Tower Tops in continous view. By thousands of people.

Photos were being taken continously, so the 'Time Stamps', would 'reveal' much, methinks?

Mr. White: But what of the concrete slabs? I think on 10' centres.
These are rigid, immovable objects. 4"s of reinforced concrete, probably a 25,000 psi mix. Sitting on Channeled steel deck, and supporting steel beams and trusses.

I would think that these concrete slabs would have provided substantial resistance to aerocraft impact points, to the degree, wingtips and tail rudder would not pass far into a concrete slab. What is your view?

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[john white]

Mr. White: But what of the concrete slabs? I think on 10' centres.
These are rigid, immovable objects. 4"s of reinforced concrete, probably a 25,000 psi mix. Sitting on Channeled steel deck, and supporting steel beams and trusses.

I would think that these concrete slabs would have provided substantial resistance to aerocraft impact points, to the degree, wingtips and tail rudder would not pass far into a concrete slab. What is your view?

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

Well firstly its the other way around: the steel beams and trusses supported the concrete slabs, not the concrete supporting the steel. The exterior was aluminum cladding and glass over the steel frame, and the concrete slabs the floors of the wtc. Each plane impact occured across (roughly speaking) three floors, and the planes simply shredded around the infrastructure as the impact occured, smashing that infrastructure apart as part of the total mass of the collision, not (nessacarily) as a result of the initial impact. and of course the largest % of the exterior surface area was glass, not aluminium, steel or concrete! There's certainly no supporting the notion that a 767 flying at 500mph would simply come to a dead stop as soon as any part of it touched the concrete: In fact, concrete is rather brittle: bash a concrete slab with a sledgehammer to test this out! In addition, some parts of a plane are more fragile than others: certainly the titanium cased rolls royce engines were quite capable of smashing all the way through a concrete floor all on their own, and in the case of the WTC2 impact, the right hand engine of course did, coming right out the other side (the left hand engine imapcting against the central core, which is another story)

And finally, there is all the evidence for plane debris found in NYC and the subsequent clean up, some of it in very hard to get to places, and some peices hot and smoking when it was found: like the engine section in the street

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings & Salutations john white!:

Pehaps I should have said 'plus' or used a 'semi-colon', and it is regrettable my 'Laboured' English led to a misunderstanding.

I spent 30 years doing Labour, dozens of slabs and thousands of hours of concrete work. I have pounded much concrete with 20lb sledgehammers.The 'Brittleness' is determined by the mixture of aggregates and admixtures. 'Elasticity', can be imparted to concrete. I have encountered concrete that a 90lb 'Jackhammer' failed to demolish.

The concrete in question had a good thirty year cure. The mixture was probably in excess of 25,000 pounds per square inch resistance. Reinforced, sitting on a 'Q' Deck supported by steel girders and trusses.

I never imagined the 'whole plane' stopping, due to forces of 'Inertia', the advance of objects will be acted upon by forces of resistance. Say 'the nose', hit a 'sweetspot', pure glass, right between the columns, the centre mass would be the primary motive.

The wings and rudder would impact the reinforced concrete slabs, at oblique angles, and would have to be 'sheared; as they are not going to plow through too much of that slab. I think much like the Pentagon, there should be a large part of the rudder evident.

It has been a few years since I read Kark Kochs book, 'Men of Steel', he does go into inpact anaysis as to the shearing of 'Core Columns'. Which ones, locations, etc.

I say as an experiment: Set up the steel and concrete stucture of a 'Floor', and propel objects into them. The slab will win.

I would like to hear narcolepticwatchmens 'take' on the slab and point of impact of aerocraft, as he is a mechanical engineer.

By the photos above a rough determination of aerocraft, concrete slab structure, impact points, should be discernible.

Lets do the Math!

Saddle Up!

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[john white]

I never imagined the 'whole plane' stopping, due to forces of 'Inertia', the advance of objects will be acted upon by forces of resistance. Say 'the nose', hit a 'sweetspot', pure glass, right between the columns, the centre mass would be the primary motive.


YOU wouldnt ;): others would (and have!)

[narcolepticwatchman]

There's certainly no supporting the notion that a 767 flying at 500mph would simply come to a dead stop as soon as any part of it touched the concrete: In fact, concrete is rather brittle: bash a concrete slab with a sledgehammer to test this out!


Don't like your analogies to explain things john.....the sledge hammer analogy is terrible. You are talking about heavy, forged steel at momentum vs an inch thick stationary slab.....but thats not the reason I'm posting this time....

Answer me this (please with an honest opinion and no dodge bud)

Pentagon eyewitness, Mike Walter said the wings folded back and shot into the building along with the plane. Here we have steel reinforced concrete walls, a high percentage of the surface area of these walls is glass also (although not the majority granted). then there is the footage of the radio controlled plane crash we have seen so many times.....again, crashing, at speed, into a concrete reinforced wall.

Someone is lying. Do you agree? Can you see the contradiction?

[narcolepticwatchman]

I would like to hear narcolepticwatchmens 'take' on the slab and point of impact of aerocraft, as he is a mechanical engineer.


Hi snoop (hope you don't mind the shortening!)

First of all, my knowledge in the field of civil engineering is limited although I do work with more than a few really competent chartered civil engineers. Mechanical engineering is the 'nuts and bolts' if you like.

I have thought about this a lot. As john pointed out, the slabs were supported by steelwork which was in turn supported by outer lattice steel supports. If the inital impact (the nose) was anything but head on with the slab, ie between floors, there would first be displacement of the slabs and support steelwork.....either lifted up or collapse. So, in theory John does have a good argument.

My problem, as I have always said, is not with the body of the planes, but the wings. it is certain that points of the wings would have hit parts of the concrete 'head on'........but only after they break through the outer lattice sections. I have no doubt that the wings would start to break up at this point.....and as they are laden with fuel, would also ignite but this is not the case with the video evidence. Anything left of the wings that then went on to hit the concrete head on, in my opinion, would then not get very far through the concrete slabs.......which I would guess were further stregthened by high tensile steel reinforcement.

As i said, there are more factors to be considered......such as explosive decompression. Remeber that the aircraft would have been internally pressurised as they had been flying at altitude.

Watch this.....

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

That was just a few hundred grams of explosives......imagine the effect with a jet almost fully laden with fuel.

Then, contrary to what Mr White had said in a previous post, there has been 'notion' that concrete would make a plane come to a dead stop......in fact, it has been proven........at 800 km/h / 500mph

800 KM/H CRASH TEST. PLANE AGAINST WALL - YouTube

Wall wins :D

[john white]

As i said, there are more factors to be considered......such as explosive decompression. Remeber that the aircraft would have been internally pressurised as they had been flying at altitude.

Watch this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arRJi3wHRnA

That was just a few hundred grams of explosives......imagine the effect with a jet almost fully laden with fuel.

On 9/11, pressurised to normal atmosphere... whilst outside the air pressure of the new york skyline was... normal atmosphere

The airplanes were pressurized simulating flight at high altitude.


Means the inside of the plane was pressurised way ABOVE normal atmosphere to simulate the differential with a pressurised cabin and exterior low pressure at high altitude

Then, contrary to what Mr White had said in a previous post, there has been 'notion' that concrete would make a plane come to a dead stop......in fact, it has been proven........at 800 km/h / 500mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7eI4...elated&search=

Wall wins


Totally different (far smaller) class of plane against a vertical wall with a completely set of parameters: therefore entirely different crash dynamics. Where is the surface area mostly of glass and mesh of steel beams for the plane to pass through before it hits the concrete? completely uncomparable

Look are you sure about the Engineer thing?

I can claim A level physics at a pinch, but even A level physics is more than adequate for me to spot the obvious drawbacks above

First of all, my knowledge in the field of civil engineering is limited although I do work with more than a few really competent chartered civil engineers. Mechanical engineering is the 'nuts and bolts' if you like.


Your a mechanic?

Look, here is a computer model of the WTC2 plane impact. There are two aspects of it that bear close consideration:

The first is to observe the way that the Plane initially shreds around the intersecting horizontal floor, that is the eroded during the crash:

The second is the "fuel only" modeling of the impact, that shows the fuel as a shape and volume step by step throughout the crash

Scientists simulate jet colliding with World Trade Center - YouTube

[mr_moon]

None of this matters anymore- it's just continuing to fuel your anger and annoyance whilst something else that we SHOULD be focusing on is going on behind our closed 9/11 eyes.

How much evidence do we need to prove to ourselves that it was a demolition? Does anything else really matter?

What is important is that we are aware, while all this shit is going down STILL, that other things are now happening.

We're living in the Past with this one guys and gals- we should be present and uncovering things happening NOW. This is the only way these people can be exposed and brought to True Justice.

Much Love,

Jay
xxx

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Peace 7 Greetings mr_moon!:

I agree to disagree with your assesment. For instance, we already have some mastery of 'Universal Infinite Love As I See It'. I got nothin' but bunny hugs and puppydog kisses for all mankind.

A perfect application of these acquired qualities may be applied to the as yet 'unsolved' events of September 11, 2001.

This is a 'Nexus of Time Event'. There is 'the World' pre 9/11 and 'the World', Post 9/11. 'TIME' was split! Researchers of the events of this day, must remained commited, examine all information. Be as tenacious as a Pit Bull on a chew toy!

Aftermath: Increase of Corporate,Military,Religious, Legislative Powers

More than 1,000,000 Iraqis dead, millions more injured and displaced. Afghanistan...

Much great information otherwise obcured are brought forth, thus informing.

Not accepting the 9/11 Commissions Report as 'Factual', compels one to 'seek' more 'definitive' explanations.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[narcolepticwatchman]

On 9/11, pressurised to normal atmosphere... whilst outside the air pressure of the new york skyline was... normal atmosphere



Means the inside of the plane was pressurised way ABOVE normal atmosphere to simulate the differential with a pressurised cabin and exterior low pressure at high altitude



Totally different (far smaller) class of plane against a vertical wall with a completely set of parameters: therefore entirely different crash dynamics. Where is the surface area mostly of glass and mesh of steel beams for the plane to pass through before it hits the concrete? completely uncomparable

Look are you sure about the Engineer thing?

I can claim A level physics at a pinch, but even A level physics is more than adequate for me to spot the obvious drawbacks above



Your a mechanic?

Look, here is a computer model of the WTC2 plane impact. There are two aspects of it that bear close consideration:

The first is to observe the way that the Plane initially shreds around the intersecting horizontal floor, that is the eroded during the crash:

The second is the "fuel only" modeling of the impact, that shows the fuel as a shape and volume step by step throughout the crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH02Eh44yUg

No, i'm a mechanical engineer. Background is in pressure vessel manufacture, currently working in the water industry. Not a structural engineer, not a designer, not a 'mechanic'. In broad terms, civils is concrete structures, roads and land engineering, mechanical engineering is broadly refferred to as 'the nuts and bolts'........whats with the constant negativity even when I'm trying to be nice to you bud?

Its not incomparible.....snoop asked about point contact between a plane and concrete.....i showed some evidence to support his thoughts on the matter......a sledge hammer and a slab....thats incomparible.

The computer simulation does not mean jack to me i'm afraid. It would be so easy to falsify a computer simulation or FEA analysis.........unless someone could do this truly independantly and could provide the evidence, raw data and methods of calculation, for independant review, i'm not interested.

If i'm honest, its all inconsequential to me at this juncture in time. I have done enough research to realise how much the shit stinks and i have also done enough research to realise that we will never know the full truth. Something has happened to me over the past week and i can see the pointlessness of all of this. Not just 9/11, but truth seeking in general. I'm greatful that the 'truth' has lead me to this point of spiritual realisation...........i have had such a positive energy running through me like adrenalin for the best part of a week.........but at the end of the day, there is too much negativity surrounding all of this 9/11 and conspiricy stuff.........its undue stress, its pointless conversation, its destructive not constructive.

I will continue to discuss, but i will not entertain your constant negativity friend, nor will I respond if you continue to post in that fashion.

All the best.

[narcolepticwatchman]

To any neutral viewing this discussion.....please consider the convenience of the timing of the release of the 'computer simulation'. The technology, Finite element analysis, has been around since I was an apprentice.........more than 10 years ago......and that was when my old company just got computers.....so i'll bet it was around long before that.

Now, here we are, 6 years after the event, only seeing a computer simulation of a finite element analysis, just as the no planes theory has garnered a bit of support. Why the delay? Does it not seem a bit 'reactive'?

Next, consider how the analysis perfectly represents the damage we see at the towers. it should be noted that FEA is not perfect and is only an educated guess as to how materials will react to the forces implied.

If finite element analysis was this perfect and could produce results as spot on as this, why do we have to 'crash test' cars? Why not just simulate them on the old computer and save a fortune?

The only way we could get an idea what would happen is to rebuild the towers and fly some more planes into them........or build a scale model and do the same........even then, the results would not be scientifically accurate as you could never get the exact same conditions. it aint gonna happen.

I asked john of his opinions on the FEA in a previous thread and he said he would get back to me. By posting this link in the last thread he obviously agrees with the analysis 100%. this analysis was carried out by a non-independant government organisation.......it is claimed they have direct links to military black ops. see link below.

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/220607study.htm

[john white]

If i'm honest, its all inconsequential to me at this juncture in time. I have done enough research to realise how much the shit stinks and i have also done enough research to realise that we will never know the full truth. Something has happened to me over the past week and i can see the pointlessness of all of this. Not just 9/11, but truth seeking in general. I'm greatful that the 'truth' has lead me to this point of spiritual realisation...........i have had such a positive energy running through me like adrenalin for the best part of a week.........but at the end of the day, there is too much negativity surrounding all of this 9/11 and conspiricy stuff.........its undue stress, its pointless conversation, its destructive not constructive.


Sure thing mate: believe you me it looks the same to me

Its like they used to say on the Telly:

"Why don't (we) go out and do something more interesting instead?"

[mr_moon]

Sure thing mate: believe you me it looks the same to me

Its like they used to say on the Telly:

"Why don't (we) go out and do something more interesting instead?"

It was actually

"Why don't you go out and do something less boring instead..."

Sorry ;) I used to love 'Why Don't You' when i was little!!

Much Love,

Jay
xxx

[mr_moon]

Peace 7 Greetings mr_moon!:

I agree to disagree with your assesment. For instance, we already have some mastery of 'Universal Infinite Love As I See It'. I got nothin' but bunny hugs and puppydog kisses for all mankind.

A perfect application of these acquired qualities may be applied to the as yet 'unsolved' events of September 11, 2001.

This is a 'Nexus of Time Event'. There is 'the World' pre 9/11 and 'the World', Post 9/11. 'TIME' was split! Researchers of the events of this day, must remained commited, examine all information. Be as tenacious as a Pit Bull on a chew toy!

Aftermath: Increase of Corporate,Military,Religious, Legislative Powers

More than 1,000,000 Iraqis dead, millions more injured and displaced. Afghanistan...

Much great information otherwise obcured are brought forth, thus informing.

Not accepting the 9/11 Commissions Report as 'Factual', compels one to 'seek' more 'definitive' explanations.

Respectfully: Snoopsnuffleopagus


Sorry what i meant was- we should be focusing on what is happening NOW in terms of the action taking place as a result of 9/11.

I'm all for people doing research because without it we would still be thinking it was a terrorist job- all i meant was it's causing a little heated arguing. Do you think this was the intention of it in the first place? To cause conflict between people? Or pull the conpirators out of the woodwork for them to identify?

Or do you think they are so cocky and over confident, they didn't think people would be out there who knew what they were up to?

Much Love,

Jay
xxx

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Greetings & Peace mr. moon!:

The argument whether their were planes or not, is divisive because the opposing sides are passionate in their views. There are strong stands on each side(which I declared secondary to 'Who'). The individual poster should themselves, check, restrain, any descent into ignobility. Vulgar rants will not advance the 'cause'. And though some 'heat' was emitted in this thread, it was not vulgar. Strong opinions require a strong stance.

The 'Powers That Be', provided a book, blueprint, many years ago called: 'Tragedy & Hope'. They informed us at that time, their machinations were already accomplished, as to: Full Spectrum Domination of the individual and the society. They laugh at us. 3,000 dead in Manhattan, they probably consider a bargain. No reason anyone in the second tower should have been killed, knowing what NORAD knew at the time. It could have been evacuated.

This has led to millions of deaths and injuries, not to mention larcenies.

'The Powers That be', provided, after long delay, much reluctance and an attempt to install Henry Kissenger as Chief Investigator, the 9/11 Commision Report. The 'debunkings' of this report are now legion.

The writings of Les Visible, Manuel Valenzuela and others are permitted by the Powers That Be, because frankly, there is nothing we can do to thwart them in this Temporal world.

Myself, I have turned to the 'Source', that I recognise, and sworn alliegence to Him. This is as free and liberated from the Powers That be, that a human can achieve.

So I agree mr. moon. Let us conduct the debate of this most important matter 9/11, as the Ladies and Gentlemen we truely are.

Very Kind Regards!: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen:

It is a small world, some say 9' x 12'. Today in General a poster named vienna makes the statement(parphrased, concerning 9/11)," all the evidence leads to the vatican".

Which illustrates my prior Directive: Determine the 'Who'; and the 'How' will become known.

Since her(vienna) post, broaches the esoteric side of the equation, this too must be 'Factored' in. No matter how emotionally or intellectualy disturbing the evidence may be, it must be assessed with proper discernment.

The 'Esoteric' side is my approach also, as the old dragon, satan herself, was the 'Grand Puppet Mistress', I have posted in the What is satanism exactly thread and the Book of Yahweh thread.

Until you know 'Who', you will not know, 'Why(motive), determine those, and then you will know 'How'.

It is really not as 'Bad' as you all imagine, it is actually much 'Worse'.

Saddle Up! Snoopsnuffleopagus