Somali Islamists cut off hands, feet of thieves

[gripit]

Somali Islamists cut off hands, feet of thieves


6 hours ago

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) — An Islamic court in Somalia on Thursday cut off a hand and foot from each of four men convicted of stealing phones and guns, drawing hundreds of onlookers as the weeping men were punished at a military camp.

The Shariah court that carried out the sentences is run by the powerful insurgent group al-Shabab, which is trying to topple Somalia's U.N.-backed government and install a strict form of Islam.

"The men were bleeding and crying when the man cut their hands and feet off with a long knife," said one witness, Liban Ali. Journalists were not allowed to cover the sentencing. The four were convicted earlier this week in the capital, Mogadishu.

The U.S. considers al-Shabab a terrorist group with links to al-Qaida, which al-Shabab denies. The group, which controls much of Somalia, is joined by hundreds of foreign fighters.

Somalis traditionally observe Sufi Islam, a relatively moderate form of worship. But in recent years, insurgents have begun to follow austere Wahabi Islam — rooted in Saudi Arabia and practiced by Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

Somalia has not had an effective government since 1991 when the overthrow of a dictatorship plunged the country into chaos. A surge in violence in recent weeks, which diplomats said is a major push by the insurgents to force the government out of its Mogadishu strongholds, has killed about 225 people.

Last week, the national security minister and Mogadishu's police chief were among those killed.

The country's lawlessness has spread security fears round the region and raised concerns that al-Qaida is trying to gain a foothold in the Horn of Africa.

Somali lawmakers pleaded this weekend for immediate international military intervention from countries including Kenya, Ethiopia and Djibouti to help quash the insurgency. But there was no indication reinforcements would be forthcoming.

Some 159,000 people have fled their homes since May 7, according to the U.N. refugee agency. The United Nations says an estimated 3.2 million Somalis — almost half the country's population — need food and other humanitarian aid.

Two years ago, Ethiopia deployed troops to support Somalia's fragile, Western-backed government, but they were widely unpopular and finally withdrawn in January.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g7OaI4_kjeHA-o4UhlmP7vlWmrrwD991L8780

[jammasterj13]

I won't be going there for me holidays.

[yozhik]

Do you think they'll plan on stealing anything again?
I don't know ... seems like a great solution to overcrowded prisons and repeat offenders.
Kind of like cutting off the cocks of convicted pedos or rapists ...

Screw being all PC about it ... that's half our fucking problem.
We've all been neutered by political correctness.
Bring back public stonings for corrupt officials too ... let's see how many try to fuck with the "public purse" when it comes to expenses when THAT makes a come back.

[picha]

Do you think they'll plan on stealing anything again?
I don't know ... seems like a great solution to overcrowded prisons and repeat offenders.
Kind of like cutting off the cocks of convicted pedos or rapists ...

Screw being all PC about it ... that's half our fucking problem.
We've all been neutered by political correctness.
Bring back public stonings for corrupt officials too ... let's see how many try to fuck with the "public purse" when it comes to expenses when THAT makes a come back.

U sick fuck. :mad:

[yozhik]

U sick fuck. :mad:

Is that your rebuttal?
Arguing the man, rather than the opinion?
Go cry me a fucking river.

How about giving us some of that "politically correct", mumbo jumbo?

You want to steal?
No problem ... but in THIS country, you risk losing a hand and a foot.
That's the deal.
Don't like it?
Two choices;
1) don't steal
2) go to a country with different rules

You want to fuck small children?
No problem ... but if we catch you doing it, we'll cut your cock off.
That's the deal.
Make your choice.

You want to make fraudulent expenses claims?
No problem ... but if you're caught doing it, there will be a public stoning and your property will be taken from you.
That's the deal.
Make your choice.

You want to be a criminal?
No problem ... all it needs is for you to be prepared to accept the cost.
That's the deal.
Make a choice.

You will not change behaviour of there are no consequences, or consequences that do not act as behaviour modifiers.
Political correctness is the work of the Fabians and the Common Purpose stooges.

[oneup]

You don't do that do any human being or living creature for that matter.
No matter what they've done.
Imagine your self in that position.

[bones]

Do you think they'll plan on stealing anything again?
I don't know ... seems like a great solution to overcrowded prisons and repeat offenders.
Kind of like cutting off the cocks of convicted pedos or rapists ...

Screw being all PC about it ... that's half our fucking problem.
We've all been neutered by political correctness.
Bring back public stonings for corrupt officials too ... let's see how many try to fuck with the "public purse" when it comes to expenses when THAT makes a come back.

kinda harsh matt, but effective none the less...

[triotec]

I love islamic people, just cant wait till they take over the whole world

[wildhorse]

yes they were wrong for stealing, but mutilating a human being this way under the banner of punishment, is wrong and unjust. It is not about political correctness, but acting humanely - the human body is sacred, a nicked phone is not.

by all means tho...cheating MPs with their expenses should have their possesions taken from them to the value of the FRAUD.

this is also to link barbaric laws with the taliban and the middle east so we will feel righteous 'going to war' with them

its all wrong, its all just about dictatorship on both sides :(

[yozhik]

yes they were wrong for stealing, but mutilating a human being this way under the banner of punishment, is wrong and unjust. It is not about political correctness, but acting humanely - the human body is sacred, a nicked phone is not.

by all means tho...cheating MPs with their expenses should have their possesions taken from them to the value of the FRAUD.

this is also to link barbaric laws with the taliban and the middle east so we will feel righteous 'going to war' with them

its all wrong, its all just about dictatorship on both sides :(

FFS ... more political correct mumbo jumbo. :)

Guess what? They live there.
They KNOW the punishment system.
They made choices.
No point crying after the fact and saying ... "yeah - I knew the consequences but, boo hoo, it's not fair".

Choices.
Responsibility.
Consequences.

Some fucker tries to steal my stuff?
Damn straight I'd try to cut the assholes hand off!

Law of the land; do no harm, injury or loss.

It's called respect; respect for your fellow man, woman and child.
Don't cause harm, injury or loss and there won't be any issues.

And don't give me any of this "it's not humane to do that to a fellow human being" bullshit.
Guess what ... it isn't humane to cause harm, injury or loss either.
Fuck the crims ... and the horse they rode in on.

[entrangermercenary]

Is that your rebuttal?
Arguing the man, rather than the opinion?
Go cry me a fucking river.

How about giving us some of that "politically correct", mumbo jumbo?

You want to steal?
No problem ... but in THIS country, you risk losing a hand and a foot.
That's the deal.
Don't like it?
Two choices;
1) don't steal
2) go to a country with different rules

You want to fuck small children?
No problem ... but if we catch you doing it, we'll cut your cock off.
That's the deal.
Make your choice.

You want to make fraudulent expenses claims?
No problem ... but if you're caught doing it, there will be a public stoning and your property will be taken from you.
That's the deal.
Make your choice.

You want to be a criminal?
No problem ... all it needs is for you to be prepared to accept the cost.
That's the deal.
Make a choice.

You will not change behaviour of there are no consequences, or consequences that do not act as behaviour modifiers.
Political correctness is the work of the Fabians and the Common Purpose stooges.


http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S202.gif

Fucking spot on that man.

[wildhorse]

christ its like being back in a working mans club all over again...:rolleyes:

[sloppy]

U sick fuck. :mad:

Honestly this has been going on for ages, and tbh it isnt as bad as you guys are making it out to be.... (from what people have told me, before looking at this thread)

They do this in a few countries. If you steal a loaf of bread because you need it, you dont get screwed. If you steal 2 loaves of bread because of greed, you do get screwed.

They are not going to cut off your hand for a first offence.

Somalia is a pretty gangster style place anyway, you wouldnt want to go there even if they didnt do these things.

[yozhik]

Real simple rules ...

You bring harm, injury or loss, to a fellow man, woman or child ... you must accept the consequences of those choices.

Choices.
Responsibility.
Respect.
Consequences.

End of fucking story and you can stick your political correctness up your ass.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/GoleeMD/Smilies/moon.gif

[wildhorse]

and it is your choice to be rude...

[entrangermercenary]

christ its like being back in a working mans club all over again...:rolleyes:

Make mine a stout. Right get in the corner and get the domms set up :D

[wildhorse]

Make mine a stout. Right get in the corner and get the domms set up :D

theres summit to be said for Pheonix Nights :D

Guiness thanks mate, with a double baileys and ice ;)

[dogsmilk]

You want to steal?
No problem ... but in THIS country, you risk losing a hand and a foot.
That's the deal.
Don't like it?
Two choices;
1) don't steal
2) go to a country with different rules



Illegally downloading music, video games or films or purchasing pirate DVDs is legally theft. The industry sees it as a tremendous loss and the law is ontheir side.

Perhaps certain parties think that many people - including I daresay many users of this forum - deserve to have a hand and foot chopped off in public for engaging in this wanton purloining of intellectual property...?

After all, if you are going to support brutal punishments for petty crimes then you must support them for whatever the law sees as criminal. It's no good saying you don't think this or that is that bad or shouldn't be a crime - nobody agrees with all laws or thinks all crimes are as bad as the state does. Many people think drug laws are stupid, but if you think bits should be being removed, any drug user should agree their bits should be removed if they are caught. Same with anyone who receives goods that fell off the back of a multinational. What about flouting the smoking ban? Fifty lashes? Caught driving at 38mph in a 30 zone? The pillory perhaps? Caught rescuing animals from a lab where they're having cosmetics tested on them? Death? Caught on a train without a ticket? Well that's technically theft...

Of course, I'd say it's probably no coincidence that brutal punishments tend to go hand in hand (if not exclusively) with brutal dictatorships who never seem to find any flaws in their court decisions and who will of course equally apply their stern punishments to dissent...

I also pity the convicted rapist who has their conviction subsequently overturned but finds themselves without a cock...I find myself unsure exactly what the compensation should be...do they make bionic cocks yet?

[dogsmilk]

Honestly this has been going on for ages, and tbh it isnt as bad as you guys are making it out to be.... (from what people have told me, before looking at this thread)

They do this in a few countries. If you steal a loaf of bread because you need it, you dont get screwed. If you steal 2 loaves of bread because of greed, you do get screwed.

They are not going to cut off your hand for a first offence.

Somalia is a pretty gangster style place anyway, you wouldnt want to go there even if they didnt do these things.

Whether your '1st offence' narrative is true or not, I like your notion of stealing 2 loaves of bread out of "greed".
Swiping a couple of Hovis - not exactly the Italian job is it?

[eternal_spirit]

What about the mentally ill suffering from psychosis. They could steal and not even know they had, same goes for MPD sufferers.

[daniel_zak]

In Shar'iah those laws are meant to act as a deterrent for the benefit of society. Crime rates in Muslim countries are generally low. Only a few Muslim countries only implement Shar'iah.

What we do we here, put a criminal in a prison, give them free food, clothes, a roof over there head, and the best bit is they pay no taxes (it comes out of our pocket).

[daniel_zak]

What about the mentally ill suffering from psychosis. They could steal and not even know they had, same goes for MPD sufferers.

Shar'iah is dynamic those sort of people would be exempt.

[yozhik]

Perhaps certain parties think that many people - including I daresay many users of this forum - deserve to have a hand and foot chopped off in public for engaging in this wanton purloining of intellectual property...?
Is that the customary consequence?
In Somalia, it is. You steal, you lose a hand.
It's known. It's customary. It's common knowledge and the societal punishment.
Is it the known consequence of "wanton purloining of intellectual property"? Maybe where you live it is ... it isn't where I live.

Not a relevant example, is it?


do they make bionic cocks yet?
Allegedly ... for exclusive use in porn movies. :D

[yozhik]

What about the mentally ill suffering from psychosis. They could steal and not even know they had, same goes for MPD sufferers.

Then that would be "not guilty" due to "mental incapacity".
Wouldn't it?

We can come up with as many bullshit exceptions and "what if's" as time allows ... just more grasping at straws to justify bullshit political correctness.

If you intentionally cause harm, injury or loss; you have to be prepared to take both responsibility and the consequences.

End of story.

What's with all this bleeding heart, whoa is me, poor me poor me ... pour be another fucking gin, whimpy, criminals-are-just-misunderstood bullshit?

Anyone would think we'd forgotten how to act as responsible adults, prepared to be responsible for our actions.
THAT'S why the PTB get away with what they get away with ... because of this limp dick, PC mangina attitude.

[leviathanstaar]

Would love to see how devoted and hardcore certain posters would be after being falsely convicted of theft.


Furthermore socialized nations that cant just let you die in the street would end up aquiring incredible costs to feed and house people with no hands and feet.

[yozhik]

Would love to see how devoted and hardcore certain posters would be after being falsely convicted of theft.
Do you have "cutting off your hands and feet" as a consequence in your country?
Doesn't exist where I live.
Not relevant then, is it?

I am sure the "devoted and hardcore certain posters" you point to also know the consequences of their actions, in whatever society they live in, and shape their behaviour accordingly. That would be the responsible thing to do, don't you agree?

[grenadene]

Hmmm...... this is all decided via trail by jury right? ;)

[yozhik]

Hmmm...... this is all decided via trail by jury right? ;)

If you're in the UK; don't hold your breath, given that Lord Judge has just ruled (setting legal precedent) for the commencement (for the first time in history for England and Wales) of trial WITHOUT jury.

Lord Judge (ironic name - I guess he was just plain ol' Judge Judge before the title) ... anyway ... Lord Judge has ruled that in some cases, the judgement should be left in the sole hands and sole discretion of a Court Judge. No need for a jury - judgy wudgy can do it all by his/her self. (better pray they like you or believe you, huh?)

This ruling and precedent will creep, as most things political and judicial do, like a cancer.
First it will be specific cases and only under extreme circumstances ... but before long, it will be standard practice.

Ah yes ... the UK ... handed to the EU for governance without representation and Courts without being judged by 12 of your peers.

The death of Democracy and Common Law ... and we were lucky enough to be alive to see it!!
Wow ... bet we can't wait to share THAT piece of history with our grandchildren ... they will look at us with such admiration, for allowing it to happen and then passing this shit hole onto them to suffer the consequences of our actions ... :mad:

(rant over)

[gripit]

Wow, this sickened me when I posted it this AM, but now I'm all pissed up. What the fucking fuck kind of a fucking country would have such barbaric laws??!! Imagine having no hands and feet, imagine it!!! Fuck me.

yozhik: Like you said, they knew the consequences. Thank you for your posts.

Cheers everyone!!!...better news tomorrow I hope?:rolleyes:

Edit: Sure as hell hope they were actually guilty.

[leviathanstaar]

It was my understanding you were for this treatment regardless of where it was happening.

Especially when one can justify it is acceptable anywhere.
The state is inherintly corrupt.
The state, anywhere weilding that kind of power is very dangerous.

[yozhik]

It was my understanding you were for this treatment regardless of where it was happening.
All of my posts have been about taking responsibility for your actions and suffering the consequences of your actions; whatever they are, wherever you are.


Especially when one can justify it is acceptable anywhere.
The state is inherintly corrupt.
The state, anywhere weilding that kind of power is very dangerous.

See?
Here comes that political correctness again and typical "blame culture".
I stole, but its the state that is corrupt.

Yeah ... of course the state is corrupt.
Always has been; and the point is?
It justifies being dishonest yourself?

Intentionally do no harm, injury or loss to any man, woman or child ... be responsible and you shouldn't have any issues.

Not difficult.

[dogsmilk]

Is that the customary consequence?
In Somalia, it is. You steal, you lose a hand.
It's known. It's customary. It's common knowledge and the societal punishment.
Is it the known consequence of "wanton purloining of intellectual property"? Maybe where you live it is ... it isn't where I live.

Not a relevant example, is it?



Allegedly ... for exclusive use in porn movies. :D

Frankly I have no idea what illegal downloading goes on in Somalia.
The point is you were expressing approval for such measures - you saw it as a means of reducing overcrowding in prisons. Presumably you aren't particularly concerned about how overcrowded prisons are in Somalia. And in the eyes of the law theft is theft. So you also therefore approve of people losing hands and feet who steal from a corporate chain store. It seems you just want a brutal state state that stamps down on whatever it sees as a crime with viciousness.

Presumably you agree with, say, incarceration and torture of political dissenters in countries where this takes place: It's known, it's customary. It's common knowledge and the societal punishment.

And once you've mutilated someone you've mutilated them. Countries like Somalia don't have much of an appeals process and I daresay they don't even have the kind of pretty toothless police complaints procedures we do - however we tend to prefer a system of justice that allows for mistakes or police fit-ups taking place. So it would be nice to hear how you're going to account for people who have appendages removed but subsequently turn out to be innocent. Or maybe you just prefer to go along with whatever the authorities say and whatever punishments those in power choose, I dunno.

If you're in the UK; don't hold your breath, given that Lord Judge has just ruled (setting legal precedent) for the commencement (for the first time in history for England and Wales) of trial WITHOUT jury.

Lord Judge (ironic name - I guess he was just plain ol' Judge Judge before the title) ... anyway ... Lord Judge has ruled that in some cases, the judgement should be left in the sole hands and sole discretion of a Court Judge. No need for a jury - judgy wudgy can do it all by his/her self. (better pray they like you or believe you, huh?)


What's your problem? This case under discussion in Somalia was a new thing because they don't have a history of chopping off hands and feet, yet you happily call it customary, give it your full approval and express the belief it should be done elsewhere.
Us Brits should just accept it, right? It's known. It's the new custom. It's common knowledge. We don't chop hands and feet off here, so really you should be railing against how soft our punishments are, right? Why aren't you complaining we don't mutilate kids in hoodies who steal mobile phones? A jury might take pity on these reprobates - an experienced judge could see through their crocodile tears, order the necessary body parts removed and be done with it.
Do Somali courts have juries? I really don't know.

A young woman recently stoned to death in Somalia first pleaded for her life, a witness has told the BBC.

"Don't kill me, don't kill me," she said, according to the man who wanted to remain anonymous. A few minutes later, more than 50 men threw stones.

Human rights group Amnesty International says the victim was a 13-year-old girl who had been raped.

Initial reports had said she was a 23-year-old woman who had confessed to adultery before a Sharia court.

Numerous eye-witnesses say she was forced into a hole, buried up to her neck then pelted with stones until she died in front of more than 1,000 people last week.

However, Amnesty said it had learned she was 13, and that her father had said she was raped by three men.

When the family tried to report the rape, the girl was accused of adultery and detained, Amnesty said.

Convicting a girl of 13 for adultery would be illegal under Islamic law.

A human rights activist in the town told the BBC on condition of anonymity that he had received death threats from the Islamic militia, who accuse him of spreading false information about the incident.

He denies having anything to with Amnesty's report.

'Crying'

Court authorities have said the woman came to them admitting her guilt.


FROM THE TODAY PROGRAMME

More from Today programme
She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply, they said.

But a witness who spoke to the BBC's Today programme said she had been crying and had to be forced into a hole before the stoning, reported to have taken place in a football stadium.

"More than 1,000 people arrived there," he said.

"After two hours, the Islamic administration in Kismayo brought the lady to the place and when she came out she said: 'What do you want from me?'"

"They said: 'We will do what Allah has instructed us'. She said: 'I'm not going, I'm not going. Don't kill me, don't kill me.'

"A few minutes later more than 50 men tried to stone her."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7708169.stm

You don't have a problem with this version of justice - so why the fuck are bothered about ours with our cushy prisons, community orders and no death penalty? After all, the authorities say she admitted her guilt - so she deserved it, right?

The death of Democracy and Common Law ... and we were lucky enough to be alive to see it!!
Wow ... bet we can't wait to share THAT piece of history with our grandchildren ... they will look at us with such admiration, for allowing it to happen and then passing this shit hole onto them to suffer the consequences of our actions ...

What do you care? You idolise mutilating people who step out of line. Our grandchildren will admire us for making the state strong. When the death squads come for political dissenters you can cheer from the sidelines - they knew the custom, they knew the law, they knew the consequences. We copied the countries that know how to deal with criminals - and we are glad for it with our iron state.

The state, anywhere weilding that kind of power is very dangerous.

Absolutely. Though it seems some actually prefer a state that will crush anyone it thinks has stepped out of line.

[dogsmilk]

Yeah ... of course the state is corrupt.

Yet you think it should mutilate people it sees as criminals.

[dogsmilk]

I am sure the "devoted and hardcore certain posters" you point to also know the consequences of their actions, in whatever society they live in, and shape their behaviour accordingly. That would be the responsible thing to do, don't you agree?

Indeed. I once met someone who can't break into the US Eschelon base at Menwith Hill again because they'd done it so many times as part of their protesting activities if they did it again they'd be sent down for a good while. So they had modified their behaviour and just protested outside the base. However if they'd, say, just had their feet chopped off first time round either they'd have known the consequences and restrained from this criminal behaviour or else they'd have had plenty of trouble wasting police time and upsetting the American military trying to break in with just stumps on the end of their legs!

[yozhik]

You assume far too much and attribute far too many of your ideas, as mine.
Wrong on MANY counts ... far too many to go through.

[void]

All of my posts have been about taking responsibility for your actions and suffering the consequences of your actions; whatever they are, wherever you are.

"The accused Yozhik tried to go against the establishment, yesterday. We hearby sentence him to be dragged by his bollocks,to the nearest hill, tied to a flat boulder and have his intestines ripped out of his body, before beheading and his arms and legs sent to the four corners of the country as a warning. He knew it was very harmful to the collective to try and defy the establishment. It was irresponsible, and now he shall face the consequences of his actions".

[dogsmilk]

I'll just pretend the implications of my support for violent state 'justice' don't exist by just saying you're wrong. Of course I'm simply assuming that people should just be mutilated for what I think they should be mutilated for which I regard as justice

I corrected that for you.

[dogsmilk]

"The accused Yozhik tried to go against the establishment, yesterday. We hearby sentence him to be dragged by his bollocks,to the nearest hill, tied to a flat boulder and have his intestines ripped out of his body, before beheading and his arms and legs sent to the four corners of the country as a warning. He knew it was very harmful to the collective to try and defy the establishment. It was irresponsible, and now he shall face the consequences of his actions".

He got off too lightly! It's political correctness gone mad!

[yozhik]

I corrected that for you.

Seems you make a habit of telling other people what they mean and how they think.
I guess old habits die hard.

However, good to see that your political correctness extends to thought crimes as well ... funny how the two seem to go together for those who can't take responsibility for their own actions.

:rolleyes:

The PTB really love your kind of thinking ... love it, thrive on it, depend on it, rely on it.

[yozhik]

"The accused Yozhik tried to go against the establishment, yesterday. We hearby sentence him to be dragged by his bollocks,to the nearest hill, tied to a flat boulder and have his intestines ripped out of his body, before beheading and his arms and legs sent to the four corners of the country as a warning. He knew it was very harmful to the collective to try and defy the establishment. It was irresponsible, and now he shall face the consequences of his actions".

... and if that was the consequence for such behaviour in the society I chose to live with; then fair enough.
However, last time I checked, it wasn't.

I really do wish you Politically Correct Muppets could keep your views to relevant points.

Seems to me you're just making up the consequence to suit your own fear of responsibility and those who question the absurdity of political correctness.
Maybe your argument would be better spent lecturing to your Fabian Society brethren, or sending into your Common Purpose newsletter?

Your inability to grasp the concept of being an adult, responsible for your actions is making you blind to the underlying premise.
Do not intentionally cause harm, injury or loss to your fellow men, women or children ... if you do, be prepared to accept the consequences as decided by the society in which you choose to partake. That's called being a responsible adult. I know in these days of welfare hand outs and the Nanny State, those concepts of actually being held accountable for your decisions is really hard to accept, which is exactly how we have got where we are today, enslaved and apathetic.

[eternal_spirit]

So some of these people say are already down on their luck for whatever reasons maybe at the bottom rung of the ladder in society, starving, destitute, whatever.

You'd have to be very desperate to steal bread knowing the consequences!

Then once missing a limb or two they would be even less use to society, and more of a burden on others, employment prospects? Almost unemployable, if at all.

A prosthetic leg/arm tester in a plastic limb factory! or a model in false limb trade mags!

Anyone know what happens to these victims after they've been chopped?

PS I'm still waiting for my delivery of Irish potatoes but I reckon those greedy English Southerners like dogsmilk made them fall off the back of a lorry along the way. Next time we'll have them sent to Liverpool, we can trust our own, that's how the scouse accent came about, mix a Lancashire accent with an Irish one = scouse. Scousers need potatoes to make scouse aka lobbies in Lancashire, because they used to lob what ever food they could in a pan to make a stew.

[yozhik]

Indeed. I once met someone who can't break into the US Eschelon base at Menwith Hill again because they'd done it so many times as part of their protesting activities if they did it again they'd be sent down for a good while. So they had modified their behaviour and just protested outside the base. However if they'd, say, just had their feet chopped off first time round either they'd have known the consequences and restrained from this criminal behaviour or else they'd have had plenty of trouble wasting police time and upsetting the American military trying to break in with just stumps on the end of their legs!

That is a ridiculous argument and I hope you're aware of that.

Firstly, they knew the consequences and they modified their behaviour.
Great; job done.

Chopping off their feet was not the rule of the society they chose to be part of, so your infantile example is irrelevant and thus, rejected.

Don't waste my time with facile arguments, based on a false premise as a rebuttal to a situation you are falsely attributing to me.
Just make your own points, express your own views and forget about twisting mine.

That would be the adult thing to do. :rolleyes:

[yozhik]

So some of these people say are already down on their luck for whatever reasons maybe at the bottom rung of the ladder in society, starving, destitute, whatever.

You'd have to be very desperate to steal bread knowing the consequences!

Then once missing a limb or two they would be even less use to society, and more of a burden on others, employment prospects? Almost unemployable, if at all.

A prosthetic leg/arm tester in a plastic limb factory! or a model in false limb trade mags!

Anyone know what happens to these victims after they've been chopped?

PS I'm still waiting for my delivery of Irish potatoes but I reckon those greedy English Southerners like dogsmilk made them fall off the back of a lorry along the way. Next time we'll have them sent to Liverpool, we can trust our own, that's how the scouse accent came about, mix a Lancashire accent with an Irish one = scouse.

Again, a facile, irrelevant rebuttal.
As has already been explained by another poster, the Islamic law that is being discussed here, is dynamic.
That punishment is not prescribed for stealing a loaf of bread, as a means of survival.

So again ... lets keep the views relevant, on topic and without twisting, distorting or taking out of conteyt.
Let's all be responsible adults, eh?
Much better than being bleeding heart, soft cock, politically correct, I-don't-want-to-be-responsible, Nanny State worshipping, Fabian whimps.

[decim]

What's the sound of a one handed, one footed muslim clapping?

[yozhik]

What's the sound of a one handed, one footed muslim clapping?

Same as a one handed, one footed Christian, Jew, Athiest, Catholic or any other organised religion, I guess.
... but I'm sure some of them would try to tap out a more politically correct beat than the others.
:rolleyes:

[decim]

A one footed muslim falls in the woods, what sound does he make?

[eternal_spirit]

Again, a facile, irrelevant rebuttal.
As has already been explained by another poster, the Islamic law that is being discussed here, is dynamic.
That punishment is not prescribed for stealing a loaf of bread, as a means of survival.


Notice he never posted any proof of this? That's a common them amongst Muslims here. I've also seen them justify genital mutilation (circumcision) even after I'd posted many artciles including medical experts and some Jews) which proves mutilation of the genitals is wrong for many reasons.

Then once missing a limb or two they would be even less use to society, and more of a burden on others, employment prospects? Almost unemployable, if at all.
And this?
The punishment creates more problems than it solves.....
PS Islam is causing problems all over Africa.

[yozhik]

Notice he never posted any proof of this? That's a common them amongst Muslims here. I've also seen them justify genital mutilation (circumcision) even after I'd posted many artciles including medical experts and some Jews) which proves mutilation of the genitals is wrong for many reasons.

Then once missing a limb or two they would be even less use to society, and more of a burden on others, employment prospects? Almost unemployable, if at all.
And this?
The punishment creates more problems than it solves.....
PS Islam is causing problems all over Africa.

Ah ... I get it now. Your anti-Muslim and anti-Diabled.
OK ... at least now we know where you're coming from.

[burnttoast]

Illegally downloading music, video games or films or purchasing pirate DVDs is legally theft. The industry sees it as a tremendous loss and the law is ontheir side.

Perhaps certain parties think that many people - including I daresay many users of this forum - deserve to have a hand and foot chopped off in public for engaging in this wanton purloining of intellectual property...?


Downloading and purchasing....two different realms entirely....it's called fileSHARING....purchasing a copy now that has some legs....oh and fuck what the industry thinks...tell them to get their SATANIC symbolism which is subliminally used throughout all their films to hypnotise the profane off the screen.

[eternal_spirit]

Maiming



Qur'an 5:33 (http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.033), < link. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; [Anyone who disbeliefs in Islam and speaks against it is considered to be waging war against Allah and his messenger]

http://news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/d/62-1/handcut0.jpg

[eternal_spirit]

Ah ... I get it now. Your anti-Muslim and anti-Diabled.
OK ... at least now we know where you're coming from.I told you the truth deal with and stop being sissy.
You're pro Muslim (or are a Muslim?)
Your a blood thirsty idiot who agrees with mutilation do you also condone and agree with genital mutilation?
Go live in a country under Shariah/Islamic laws if you hate the West so much.

[yozhik]

Anyone who disbeliefs in Islam and speaks against it is considered to be waging war against Allah and his messenger

So I guess that's like;

"You're either with us ... or you're with the terrorists"

Correct?

I don't think George W Bush is Muslim ... I might be wrong.
Please feel free to correct me if he is.
But assuming he isn't, then I guess this isn't a belief structure that Muslim's have a monopoly on, eh?

[yozhik]

I told you the truth deal with and stop being sissy.
You're pro Muslim (or are a Muslim?)
Another monumental reach of (il)logic.

Your a blood thirsty idiot who agrees with mutilation do you also condone and agree with genital mutilation?
OK ... now we're getting into the realm of ridiculous again.
Argue the person, not the ideas.
Argumentum ad hominem really is pathetic and a sign of intellectual incompetence.
Don't be so lazy; stick to topic.

And while you're at it ... please ... PLEASE ... show me any reference I have made previously to genital mutilation. So far, you have been the ONLY member to raise the topic.


Go live in a country under Shariah/Islamic laws if you hate the West so much.
Did I say I hate the West?
Just another irrelevant, derailing, illogical smokescreen.
Stick to topic with rebuttal.
Don't allow your own obvious prejudice to muddy the waters.

[decim]

This sums the problem up, lock it or lose it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IayHnA0cGuc

[eternal_spirit]

Another monumental reach of (il)logic.


OK ... now we're getting into the realm of ridiculous again.
Argue the person, not the ideas.
Argumentum ad hominem really is pathetic and a sign of intellectual incompetence.
Don't be so lazy; stick to topic.

And while you're at it ... please ... PLEASE ... show me any reference I have made previously to genital mutilation. So far, you have been the ONLY member to raise the topic.



Did I say I hate the West?
Just another irrelevant, derailing, illogical smokescreen.
Stick to topic with rebuttal.
Don't allow your own obvious prejudice to muddy the waters.
:confused: You're talking about yourself there Mr.
It's you who has been spouting crap all through the thread. So, are you Muslim? That would explain everything.

[eternal_spirit]

A woman being prepared to be stoned to death.

http://news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/d/66-2/stoning2.jpg

[yozhik]

:confused: You're talking about yourself there Mr.
It's you who has been spouting crap all through the thread. So, are you Muslim? That would explain everything.

Ah yes ... another racist comes to light.
eternal_racist ... argumentum ad hominem is your normal response?

[eternal_spirit]

Ah yes ... another racist comes to light.
eternal_racist ... argumentum ad hominem is your normal response?
Islam/Muslim is a race now eh:rolleyes: not!
And still no answer to the question.

[yozhik]

Islam/Muslim is a race now eh:rolleyes: not!
And still no answer to the question.

You have not asked a question relevant to the topic.

In fact, I don't think you have contributed ANYTHING relevant to the OP.
You have tried to derail the thread to fill it with your own bile and hatred, by attacking the poster, not rebutting what has been posted.

But hey ... if that's how you get your kicks; more power to you.

Back to topic.

To assist you, here's the start to it ...

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) — An Islamic court in Somalia on Thursday cut off a hand and foot from each of four men convicted of stealing phones and guns, drawing hundreds of onlookers as the weeping men were punished at a military camp.

[leviathanstaar]

All of my posts have been about taking responsibility for your actions and suffering the consequences of your actions; whatever they are, wherever you are.




See?
Here comes that political correctness again and typical "blame culture".
I stole, but its the state that is corrupt.

Yeah ... of course the state is corrupt.
Always has been; and the point is?
It justifies being dishonest yourself?

.

That is ridiculous on it's face.

Do you know the sheer number of people in jail that shouldnt be?

Simply always obey the law and you wont have a problem? Do you in fact believe that?

If so, how did you ever make it here?
I made no referance to supporting dishonesty or commiting crimes, and the accusation is transparent.
In order for consequenses of any kind to happen to a person they MUST have commited the crime?
You also agree the state is inherintly corrupt
and contradict yourself within the very statement.

[eternal_spirit]

You have not asked a question relevant to the topic.

In fact, I don't think you have contributed ANYTHING relevant to the OP.
You have tried to derail the thread to fill it with your own bile and hatred, by attacking the poster, not rebutting what has been posted.

But hey ... if that's how you get your kicks; more power to you.

Back to topic.

To assist you, here's the start to it ...

Forget it, your reply is the same as some of the Muslims on here, I know their game well now, you accuse us Kaffirs and infidels (none Muslims) of being full of hate when we point out Islamic religious hatred and acts of inhumane violence which they even meat out on their own kind, which is the topic, and you're lying again, because I have posted on topic and it's easy to see who is calling worse names (you) so stop trying to attach another false label on me.

You can ride Mohhamed's merry go round but I'm getting off severe case of de ja vu - of Islamic trolling tactics.

[yozhik]

That is ridiculous on it's face.

Do you know the sheer number of people in jail that shouldnt be?

Simply always obey the law and you wont have a problem? Do you in fact believe that?

If so, how did you ever make it here?
I made no referance to supporting dishonesty or commiting crimes, and the accusation is transparent.
In order for consequenses of any kind to happen to a person they MUST have commited the crime?
You also agree the state is inherintly corrupt
and contradict yourself within the very statement.

I have said and continue to say;

Do not intentionally cause harm, injury or loss to your fellow men, women or children. If you do, then you need to take responsibility for your choices and accept the consequences of your actions, as prescribed by the society you choose to partake in.

How does this refer to any one wrongly accused?
I have specifically posted the key words; choices, intentionally, responsibility and consequences.

Nowhere have I stated that anyone merely charged with a crime, does the time.
If someone is judged guilty, but is in fact innocent ... where is their intent to cause harm, injury or loss?

There isn't any, so my statement does not apply.

Don't read between the lines or misinterpret or spin my words.
Let me state it AGAIN, so you are in no doubt;

Do not intentionally cause harm, injury or loss to your fellow men, women or children. If you do, then you need to take responsibility for your choices and accept the consequences of your actions, as prescribed by the society you choose to partake in.

Sure, I've agreed the state is corrupt; the state is not the society I choose to be a member of. Do you?
So there is a vast chasm between what you are attributing to me and what I have actually stated.

Choice.
Intention.
Responsibility.
Consequences.

[yozhik]

Forget it, your reply is the same as some of the Muslims on here, I know their game well now, you accuse us Kaffirs and infidels (none Muslims) of being full of hate when we point out Islamic religious hatred and acts of inhumane violence which they even meat out on their own kind, which is the topic, and you're lying again, because I have posted on topic and it's easy to see who is calling worse names (you) so stop trying to attach another false label on me.

You can ride Mohhamed's merry go round but I'm getting off severe case of de ja vu - of Islamic trolling tactics.

I can not believe how one can be so judgemental and yet so incredibly wrong with their assumptions and statements.
So, according to you, I'm a Muslim? A liar? A troll?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

:D ... OK eternal_muslim_hater ... whatever helps you sleep at night.

[lostwonderer]

Do you think they'll plan on stealing anything again?
I don't know ... seems like a great solution to overcrowded prisons and repeat offenders.
Kind of like cutting off the cocks of convicted pedos or rapists ...

Screw being all PC about it ... that's half our fucking problem.
We've all been neutered by political correctness.
Bring back public stonings for corrupt officials too ... let's see how many try to fuck with the "public purse" when it comes to expenses when THAT makes a come back.

I agree with you to a certain extent. In this case, i have to say if this happened to rapists, pedophiles, I'd hold no sympathy for such sick vile people. However, i think it is very harsh for it to be conducted on a crime such as thieving.

[yozhik]

I agree with you to a certain extent. In this case, i have to say if this happened to rapists, pedophiles, I'd hold no sympathy for such sick vile people. However, i think it is very harsh for it to be conducted on a crime such as thieving.

I agree ... which is why I choose not to be a member of society in which this is the customary consequence.

Sure as hell would act as a deterrent though!!

[eternal_spirit]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


:D ... OK eternal_muslim_hater ... whatever helps you sleep at night.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/439/smileypounditjpg.gif
Every time you type a post on this thread you make a fool of yourself. There's more bad than good about Islam, I've researched enough to know this is true imo. Your illogical posts and defence of mutilation/amputation are desperate and mirror the behaviour of a committed Muslim. That's why I asked are you Muslim?

But skate around the issue with more name calling and crap and don't answer the question. (I no longer care for an answer)

[eternal_spirit]

I agree with you to a certain extent. In this case, i have to say if this happened to rapists, pedophiles, I'd hold no sympathy for such sick vile people. However, i think it is very harsh for it to be conducted on a crime such as thieving.


Quote from faithfreedom.org (http://faithfreedom.org/)

Quran 52:24 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/052.qmt.html#052.024) Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. Also in Surah 76:19 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/076.qmt.html#076.019) Allah promises fresh youths to Muslim men. And round about them shall go youths never altering in age; when you see them you will think them to be scattered pearls. I apologize if the above picture is disturbing. It is indeed disturbing. But it would be more disturbing if no one spoke about it. When Catholic priests molest children there is a law, there is a justice that holds them accountable. The Mullahs ARE the law, justice and the government. So they can do their shameful acts in public and who is going to stop them?

Homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death but pederasty is permissible.

http://news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/d/176-1/mollah.jpg

[yozhik]

Every time you type a post on this thread you make a fool of yourself.
In your opinion ...

There's more bad than good about Islam,
In your opinion ...

I've researched enough to know this is true imo.
Self proclaimed expert ... ah, ego is a wonderful thing.

Your illogical posts and defence of mutilation/amputation are desperate and mirror the behaviour of a committed Muslim. That's why I asked are you Muslim?
Generalisation. Irrelevant question. Intentional obfuscation and not on topic.

But skate around the issue with more name calling and crap
Me name calling??? Hey, Mr kettle ... meet Mr Black!!

and don't answer the question. (I no longer care for an answer)
Great ... so why ask it?
Intentional obfuscation and muddying of the thread.

[lostwonderer]

Quote from faithfreedom.org (http://faithfreedom.org/)

Quran 52:24 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/052.qmt.html#052.024) Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. Also in Surah 76:19 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/076.qmt.html#076.019) Allah promises fresh youths to Muslim men. And round about them shall go youths never altering in age; when you see them you will think them to be scattered pearls. I apologize if the above picture is disturbing. It is indeed disturbing. But it would be more disturbing if no one spoke about it. When Catholic priests molest children there is a law, there is a justice that holds them accountable. The Mullahs ARE the law, justice and the government. So they can do their shameful acts in public and who is going to stop them?

Homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death but pederasty is permissible.

http://news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/d/176-1/mollah.jpg

Oh dear, that's just wrong, in so many ways. That picture is slightly disturbing, apart from the obvious, he's practically pulling of the boys arm.

[notmarkk]

I have said and continue to say;

Do not intentionally cause harm, injury or loss to your fellow men, women or children. If you do, then you need to take responsibility for your choices and accept the consequences of your actions, as prescribed by the society you choose to partake in.

I think he was referring to the wrongly accused.

[dogsmilk]

Seems you make a habit of telling other people what they mean and how they think.
I guess old habits die hard.

However, good to see that your political correctness extends to thought crimes as well ... funny how the two seem to go together for those who can't take responsibility for their own actions.

:rolleyes:

The PTB really love your kind of thinking ... love it, thrive on it, depend on it, rely on it.

No I was looking at some of the consequences of your line of thinking. Since you're apparently big on consequences, I would have assumed that would be of interest. Try taking responsibility for the consequences of your preferred system of jurisprudence.

And stop trying to claim that not wanting to hack body parts off offenders is "political correctness" - it makes you look like a total nutcase.

That is a ridiculous argument and I hope you're aware of that.

Firstly, they knew the consequences and they modified their behaviour.
Great; job done.

Chopping off their feet was not the rule of the society they chose to be part of, so your infantile example is irrelevant and thus, rejected.

Don't waste my time with facile arguments, based on a false premise as a rebuttal to a situation you are falsely attributing to me.
Just make your own points, express your own views and forget about twisting mine.

That would be the adult thing to do

*sigh*

Right, so firstly you approve of the victory of Eschelon and its right to be established on British soil over those who think it should fuck off. Fascinating.
As long as the behaviour of the protestor is modified according to what the state wants, that's what matters.

Second, you don't just choose to be part of a society. You may not have noticed but most people are born into theirs. And many don't have the resources to leave. And if they then try to anyway, then they may well be illegal immigrants your 'nanny state' may have to look after.
Indeed you seem to put great stock in this. Can a Somalian peasant just get on a plane and move to England just like that? Can a teenager from Salford just decide they prefer the laws in Hungary and relocate there? Can a toilet cleaner from Hungary just drop everything and move to Miami because they prefer the laws there?
And who makes the fucking laws anyway - it sure isn't the people.

Third, following your line of argument, the punishment should probably be more severe. If you advocate removing a hand and a foot for simple theft - which you've stated your total approval of - then breaking into a top secret military base even the UK govt aren't allowed to know what goes on inside of should really carry a far worse penalty. Now, from what you're saying, if you knew that worse would happen to you for doing this, this far worse consequence - let's say being boiled alive - would presumably be entirely satisfactory to you. Indeed, your argument here seems to hinge on saying if it's a rule of the society you're in then it's ok whatever the penalty. Indeed, in response to Void, -

... and if that was the consequence for such behaviour in the society I chose to live with; then fair enough.
However, last time I checked, it wasn't.

Incredible. You actually support the execution of political dissenters if that's the law of the land. Amazing.
I hadn't realised how overtly totalitarian you are.

Do not intentionally cause harm, injury or loss to your fellow men, women or children .
if you do, be prepared to accept the consequences as decided by the society in which you choose to partake. That's called being a responsible adult. I know in these days of welfare hand outs and the Nanny State, those concepts of actually being held accountable for your decisions is really hard to accept, which is exactly how we have got where we are today, enslaved and apathetic.


These are fairly vague concepts that could be applied in a number of ways. Still you don't seem to care -
DO AS YOU'RE TOLD OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES - IT'S THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE TO ENSLAVEMENT!! EXECUTION OF POLITICAL DISSENTERS, SUBVERSIVES AND PETTY CRIMINALS LIVE TONIGHT IN FRONT OF A BAYING STUDIO MOB, ALL CHANNELS. PRESIDENT YOZHIK HIMSELF WILL INSERT A RED HOT POKER INTO THE RECTUM OF A WOMAN WHO STOLE A SKIRT FROM PRIMARK. HE WILL THEN GOUGE THE EYEBALLS FROM A TEENAGER WHO STOLE A PS2 AND MAKE THE FELON EAT THEM BEFORE DECAPITATING THEM. A POLITICALLY CORRECT SUBVERSIVE WHO SPOKE OUT AGAINST PRESIDENT YOZHIK WILL THEN BE SODOMISED BY AN ELEPHANT UNTIL DEAD.
THEY WERE WARNED!
THEY KNEW THE LAW!
THEY KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES!
IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM YOU MUST OBEY!

Ah yes ... another racist comes to light.
eternal_racist

Ha ha! I've called him that before! You'll have just as much fun arguing with ET about Muslims as I have arguing with people (ET included) about Jews. How ironic! LOL.

You'll find he's totally unable to grasp that the fact Muslims do bad things (which you apparently think are good things anyway) in the name of Islam doesn't therefore mean all Muslims are bad people and Islam isn't therefore an inherently bad thing.

However - excuse me Mr Eternal Spirit

greedy English Southerners like dogsmilk

And what exactly makes you assume I'm a southerner?

[dangermouse]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/225458/

i couldnt resist

[dogsmilk]

Honestly Yozhik, I'm having to keep correcting you today.

Do not intentionally cause harm, injury or loss to your fellow men, women or children - whatever that actually means. It's suitably vague so that all kinds of crazy shit laws could come under that banner. If you do, then you need to take responsibility for your choices and accept whatever disproportionate draconian consequences your rulers decide. If you don't like it, leave if you can or otherwise grin and bear it. Conform or fuck off. The country belongs to those who make the law not you - just accept it.

[decim]

If we amputated all potentially violating appendages at birth, there would be alot more wheelchair crime..

[eternal_spirit]

However - excuse me Mr Eternal Spirit



And what exactly makes you assume I'm a southerner?
This is really going to confuse readers haha.
Last time I was down south I seen this bloke asking for dogsmilk at Sainsburys and then he walked out with loads of southern fried potatos, thought it may have been you.

[dogsmilk]

This is really going to confuse readers haha.
Last time I was down south I seen this bloke asking for dogsmilk at Sainsburys and then he walked out with loads of southern fried potatos, thought it may have been you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXMapqiDsqs

No it wasn't me! My user name is simply a user name.
"asking for dogsmilk..?"

And I'm not, as it happens, a Southerner - though I have lived in several places, all of them have been north of the Watford gap .

[yozhik]

No I was looking at some of the consequences of your line of thinking. Since you're apparently big on consequences, I would have assumed that would be of interest. Try taking responsibility for the consequences of your preferred system of jurisprudence.

And stop trying to claim that not wanting to hack body parts off offenders is "political correctness" - it makes you look like a total nutcase˛
Whoa, whoa, whoa ... it isn't about hacking body parts off, or not, as the case may be.
What I have stated from the beginning is about understanding the consequences of behaviour and choosing to be a member of a particular society.

Be careful that we don't get into a "my cat is black, you have a cat, therefore your cat is black" situation.

What you are stating and what I have stated can be mutually exclusive.



*sigh*

Right, so firstly you approve of the victory of Eschelon and its right to be established on British soil over those who think it should fuck off. Fascinating.
As long as the behaviour of the protestor is modified according to what the state wants, that's what matters.
Absolutely incorrect.
Again, another black cat argument.
I have never mentioned state; I have been consistent in mentioning society.
HUGE difference.


Second, you don't just choose to be part of a society. You may not have noticed but most people are born into theirs.
Correct on both counts.
I was born into a society, as most are, but I choose not to align myself with it.

And many don't have the resources to leave. And if they then try to anyway, then they may well be illegal immigrants your 'nanny state' may have to look after.
OK ... more confusion over "state" and "society".

Indeed you seem to put great stock in this. Can a Somalian peasant just get on a plane and move to England just like that? Can a teenager from Salford just decide they prefer the laws in Hungary and relocate there? Can a toilet cleaner from Hungary just drop everything and move to Miami because they prefer the laws there?
And who makes the fucking laws anyway - it sure isn't the people.
Big issue here ... firstly, society doesn't have to be geographic location.
In fact, the true meaning of a society does not mention geographic location.
Following on from this, any of the examples you mention have the choice to remove themselves from the society they disagree with.

The Freeman On The Land forum covers this in detail.

We are in total agreement re: absurdity of "who makes the laws anyway" ... you will get no argument from me on this one.

Third, following your line of argument, the punishment should probably be more severe. If you advocate removing a hand and a foot for simple theft - which you've stated your total approval of - then breaking into a top secret military base even the UK govt aren't allowed to know what goes on inside of should really carry a far worse penalty. Now, from what you're saying, if you knew that worse would happen to you for doing this, this far worse consequence - let's say being boiled alive - would presumably be entirely satisfactory to you. Indeed, your argument here seems to hinge on saying if it's a rule of the society you're in then it's ok whatever the penalty. Indeed, in response to Void, -



Incredible. You actually support the execution of political dissenters if that's the law of the land. Amazing.
I hadn't realised how overtly totalitarian you are.
Again, a false argument.

Let's put it in REALLY simple terms.

If I chose to be a member of a society where "being boiled alive" was the consequence of breaking into a military base, and I knew of this consequence; would I do it?

That is a completely different question to; would I agree with it?

One is about responsibility; the other is about agreement.

Let's look at something more realistic; the speed limit.
Do I agree that the speed limit on a motorway in the UK should be 70 mph? Do I understand the consequences of my actions if I go over this limit? Do I need to take responsibility for the consequences if I choose to do so?

The arguments and statements have to be separated; it's incredibly dangerous and erroneous to confuse them.



These are fairly vague concepts that could be applied in a number of ways. Still you don't seem to care -
DO AS YOU'RE TOLD OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES - IT'S THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE TO ENSLAVEMENT!! EXECUTION OF POLITICAL DISSENTERS, SUBVERSIVES AND PETTY CRIMINALS LIVE TONIGHT IN FRONT OF A BAYING STUDIO MOB, ALL CHANNELS. PRESIDENT YOZHIK HIMSELF WILL INSERT A RED HOT POKER INTO THE RECTUM OF A WOMAN WHO STOLE A SKIRT FROM PRIMARK. HE WILL THEN GOUGE THE EYEBALLS FROM A TEENAGER WHO STOLE A PS2 AND MAKE THE FELON EAT THEM BEFORE DECAPITATING THEM. A POLITICALLY CORRECT SUBVERSIVE WHO SPOKE OUT AGAINST PRESIDENT YOZHIK WILL THEN BE SODOMISED BY AN ELEPHANT UNTIL DEAD.
THEY WERE WARNED!
THEY KNEW THE LAW!
THEY KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES!
IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM YOU MUST OBEY!
:D ... funny.

... and so "off base".

Again, the problem with this rebuttal is a failure to distinguish between the very separate issues, that you seem to have blurred into one mish mash.

OR

... it was my inability to communicate the distinction between them well enough in my earlier posts.

Whatever; who did what is not important.
The key here is finding some agreement on there being a clear distinction.

[adbasque]

I didn't hear people here ever arguing about capital punishment that is taking place in the US and other countries, and not only that, later found completely innocents.

Oh no that's done a in very democratic country, not barbaric at all.

Double bloody standard again

It's not good if you do it, but it's ok if I do worse.

[yozhik]

I didn't hear people here ever arguing about capital punishment that is taking place in the US and other countries, and not only that, later found completely innocents.

Oh no that's done a in very democratic country, not barbaric at all.

Double bloody standard again

It's not good if you do it, but it's ok if I do worse.

Then we could also open up the whole can of worms that is "rendition"; when the US exports its prisoners to countries that have more "relaxed laws", for the sole purpose of being able to torture them.
But, its off topic and deserves its own thread.

I had to laugh before when I was "accused" (such a heinous crime) of not liking the West.
Well, to be honest, if the US/Israeli/UK Unholy Union is "the West"; what the fuck is there to like????

[adbasque]

Then we could also open up the whole can of worms that is "rendition"; when the US exports its prisoners to countries that have more "relaxed laws", for the sole purpose of being able to torture them.
But, its off topic and deserves its own thread.

I had to laugh before when I was "accused" (such a heinous crime) of not liking the West.
Well, to be honest, if the US/Israeli/UK Unholy Union is "the West"; what the fuck is there to like????

To see how deeply people are conditioned even the so called enlightened ones, the conditioning still there.

The capital punishment is acceptable because it is used in "Land of the free"
but when a punishment is used elsewhere it must be wrong.
As you stated clearly it's not about agreeing with or not, it's to take responsibility.

When you know if you go over the speed limit, you're entering zone risk of being caught, and when you get caught, you are also aware what the consequences would be.

To lose points on your driving license, risk have your driving license revoked, risk prison, and even bigger risk to have an accident die and kill others.

It's about being responsible.

[triotec]

Wow, this sickened me when I posted it this AM, but now I'm all pissed up. What the fucking fuck kind of a fucking country would have such barbaric laws??!! Imagine having no hands and feet, imagine it!!! Fuck me.

yozhik: Like you said, they knew the consequences. Thank you for your posts.

Cheers everyone!!!...better news tomorrow I hope?:rolleyes:

Edit: Sure as hell hope they were actually guilty.

We are gonna get this barbaric laws because we are blind, allowing muslims into our countries. Just you guys wait and see!, This is not gonna happen in my fucking time here on this earth!

[dogsmilk]

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... it isn't about hacking body parts off, or not, as the case may be.
What I have stated from the beginning is about understanding the consequences of behaviour and choosing to be a member of a particular society.

Be careful that we don't get into a "my cat is black, you have a cat, therefore your cat is black" situation.

What you are stating and what I have stated can be mutually exclusive

Absolutely incorrect.
Again, another black cat argument.
I have never mentioned state; I have been consistent in mentioning society.
HUGE difference

Who makes the laws and sets the punishments? - the state. Their may be subdivisions of the state but they all come under the dictats of the ruling government. The state is the dominant power.
Otherwise, exactly how are you defining "society" - this itself is a term that can be interpreted in a number of ways.
But
.You want to steal?
No problem ... but in THIS country, you risk losing a hand and a foot.
That's the deal.
Don't like it?
Two choices;
1) don't steal
2) go to a country with different rules


Who made these rules? The Somali govt choosing to adopt Shariah as legitimate or your "society"?

Correct on both counts.
I was born into a society, as most are, but I choose not to align myself with it.


How? How do you practically express this lack of alignment? And how does it help you if you commit what the state sees as a crime?

OK ... more confusion over "state" and "society".


Because I don't understand what this "society" of yours actually is.

Big issue here ... firstly, society doesn't have to be geographic location.
In fact, the true meaning of a society does not mention geographic location.
Following on from this, any of the examples you mention have the choice to remove themselves from the society they disagree with.

The Freeman On The Land forum covers this in detail.

We are in total agreement re: absurdity of "who makes the laws anyway" ... you will get no argument from me on this one.


From what I've seen freeman on the land largely involves being pedantic over statute. Looks like it has practical applications in some circumstances but a lot of it looks to me like it's more trouble than it's worth and at best looks like a kind of feeble libertarianism spending lots of time arguing over the DVLA and council tax bills (while presumably still expecting your bins to be emptied, the library to be open and the fire brigade to be at the end of a 999 call). Basically, I don't think it's ultimately actually going to get people anywhere. But I haven't looked at in in any depth as I don't find it very interesting, in fact I found the stuff I have read very boring. No offence, that's just me.
But you simply cannot just remove yourself from the society you disagree with non-geographically, or at least it's very difficult (like if you want to use money and stuff). And it's not exactly ideal to want to. Humans evolved living in societies. Making societies worth wanting to live in them is, I think, preferable.

Again, a false argument.

Let's put it in REALLY simple terms.

If I chose to be a member of a society where "being boiled alive" was the consequence of breaking into a military base, and I knew of this consequence; would I do it?

That is a completely different question to; would I agree with it?

One is about responsibility; the other is about agreement.

Let's look at something more realistic; the speed limit.
Do I agree that the speed limit on a motorway in the UK should be 70 mph? Do I understand the consequences of my actions if I go over this limit? Do I need to take responsibility for the consequences if I choose to do so?

The arguments and statements have to be separated; it's incredibly dangerous and erroneous to confuse them.


There are two sets of consequences. Given your motorway example, the first consequence may be being busted for speeding (or causing an accident). The second is if I caused a crash through going too fast but get away with it - without clear skid marks to measure it may not actually be proved I was speeding (or else I didn't actually crash but caused someone else to) but may feel responsible. And I must take responsibility for that action even if I were not punished. I try not to drive recklessly not just because I may be punished, but because of how I would feel if I hurt or killed someone through irresponsible behaviour.

If I restrained from taking an action because I would be boiled alive if caught, I'm not taking responsibility for my actions, I'm acting out of fear of what a greater power will do to me. If I do do it and get caught, it's not about taking responsibility it's about being subjected to a punishment that may be wildly disproportionate and totally irrational imposed on you by a greater power. People who restrained from criticising Stalin or Hitler weren't taking responsibilty for their actions, they were frightened of the gestapo or NKVD.

I have met several offenders who refuse to take responsibility for their actions despite being locked up, losing their families, losing their homes. They don't care about the consequences. If you lopped off a hand, they still wouldn't take responsibility. Conversely, I've known people who have seriously offended - ex gang members and the like - who did really bad things they totally got away with but now take responsibility for those actions and may have sought to make amends, if only by going round educating youngsters about their actions and where they can lead.

Taking responsibility is internal. You can affect people's behaviour by making them frightened of consequences but they may still do it and not take responsibility. Hell, you can train a dog to be frightened of consequences. Taking responsibility is linked with agreement - I agree that I am responsible for that act and my feeling of deep responsibility may in fact be the only consequence. Otherwise, I am just succumbing to the will of a greater power than myself.

Not that I'm into that stuff any more, but if I got caught with pills, I may be punished but would feel no sense of responsibility. I'd just feel angry about being persecuted by a bullshit law. I don't feel responsible for laws or punishments I think are nonsensical even if I may often obey them for practical purposes.

And actually the original Somali guys couldn't even take responsibility on your terms - the punishment was something of a shocker and was unexpected.

[yozhik]

We are gonna get this barbaric laws because we are blind, allowing muslims into our countries. Just you guys wait and see!, This is not gonna happen in my fucking time here on this earth!

Here we go again ... more fortune cookie wisdom ... the Muslim is the "boogey man" ... :rolleyes:

... and let me guess ... the US led War on Terror (cough) and the Fight for Freedom (giggle) will be our saviours??

WAKE THE FUCK UP.

If I was you, I'd be a lot more worried about the IMF, WHO, the UN, WTO, Monsanto, GM, the Environazis, the NAU, the EU and the RFID.

[yozhik]

SOCIETY. The community. The associates which one has. A voluntary association, organised and existing for mutual benefit of its members.

STATE. A body politic, united together for the purpose of promoting their mutual safety and advantage, by the joined efforts of their combined strength, occupying a definite territory, and politically organised under one government. People, territory, and government considered in combination.

[adbasque]

We are gonna get this barbaric laws because we are blind, allowing muslims into our countries. Just you guys wait and see!, This is not gonna happen in my fucking time here on this earth!

Why don't you go and educate yourself instead of letting trash out of your mouth?
Typical bigotry out of ignorance

In Islam there's no such thing as cutting feet, there's no such thing as cutting two hands.

But you're too ignorant to see that the government in place is a dictator and has nothing to do with Islam and you blaming the whole muslim population for what some ass** are doing.?

I didn't hear you complaining about capital punishment, people were executed for some crappy evidence, some were executed and later were found completely innocents.

You're blind for those because they happen in the US.
And not the whole of the western civilisation takes the blame when something, bad or wrong is done??

It's not your fault you have been conditioned to quickly point a finger, forgetting the other three fingers coming right back at you?

I am sick of reading bigots poping up everywhere now.

Get some education instead of repeating what others are telling to say, and you call yourselves enlightened that's a joke.
Rise above what seems to be the bleeding obvious!!

[adbasque]

Here we go again ... more fortune cookie wisdom ... the Muslim is the "boogey man" ... :rolleyes:

... and let me guess ... the US led War on Terror (cough) and the Fight for Freedom (giggle) will be our saviours??

WAKE THE FUCK UP.

If I was you, I'd be a lot more worried about the IMF, WHO, the UN, WTO, Monsanto, GM, the Environazis, the NAU, the EU and the RFID.

No matter who does what, a MUSLIM is the easy target, they love it, they are not interested in looking at the truth.

I wonder what some people are doing here on this forum!

[adbasque]

I love islamic people, just cant wait till they take over the whole world

Where are you going to run after they take over then? whooo

[decim]

There must be loads of one handed christians typing (slowly) complaining of victimization on the DI somali forum.

christians invading somalia building churches every where, demanding that bells toll out on sunday, & all somali's will get their 9/11, demanding rights to drink alcohol, swan round in speedos & lech at women...

[diamondgeezer]

The capital punishment is acceptable because it is used in "Land of the free"
but when a punishment is used elsewhere it must be wrong.


Its wrong & unacceptable ANYWHERE end of.


But you're too ignorant to see that the government in place is a dictator and has nothing to do with Islam and you blaming the whole muslim population for what some ass** are doing.?

Bollocks, its everything to do with islam. Name me one 'Islamic State' that doesn't advocate stoning women to death for adultery etc.

:rolleyes:Also...if you can..name me one Islamic State where the government in place ISN'T a dictatorship...

[triotec]

Ok, ever heard of the right to free speech and free opinion? I got nothing against muslims, as long as they stay in their in their own countries! We all know that their ultimate goal is world reign! Wake the fuck up!!!

[yozhik]

Ok, ever heard of the right to free speech and free opinion? I got nothing against muslims, as long as they stay in their in their own countries! We all know that their ultimate goal is world reign! Wake the fuck up!!!

Ok, ever heard of the right to free speech and free opinion? I got nothing against Americans, as long as they stay in their own country! We all know that their ultimate goal is world reign! Wake the fuck up!!!

:rolleyes:

Ok, ever heard of the right to free speech and free opinion? I got nothing against Jews, as long as they stay in their own country! We all know that their ultimate goal is world reign! Wake the fuck up!!!

:rolleyes:

Ok, ever heard of the right to free speech and free opinion? I got nothing against Scientologists, as long as they stay with their heads in their own asses! We all know that their ultimate goal is world reign! Wake the fuck up!!!

:rolleyes:

Ok, ever heard of the right to free speech and free opinion? I got nothing against Chinese, as long as they stay in their own restaurants! We all know that their ultimate goal is world reign! Wake the fuck up!!!

:rolleyes:

[pinnochio]

I think yozhik is very misunderstood.

Its down to CHOICE.

How many times have english people said. Well if them bloody foreigners come here they gotta follow our rules and bla bla bla. And i heard this many times down the pub by people.

To be honest do you ever think sharia law would ever come into this country. Its all bullshit scare mongering. Yozhik said. I was born into a certain society but choose not to live there because he/she knew the consequences of their laws.

How many times in riots have english people beat the Fuck out of muslim people.

I'm don't agree with mutilation but its your choice to live in a country and you have to take the consequences of their laws. Wether you disagree with them or not.

[adbasque]

Its wrong & unacceptable ANYWHERE end of.




Bollocks, its everything to do with islam. Name me one 'Islamic State' that doesn't advocate stoning women to death for adultery etc.

:rolleyes:Also...if you can..name me one Islamic State where the government in place ISN'T a dictatorship...

So if the US constitution is there, and the government is killing people it's the constitution's fault, right?

let me say this for the last time.

There aren't any Islamic States, period!!

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic STATE right?

Tell me please what the hell are you doing on this forum if you believe in all this bullshit, what brought you here to a forum like this one??
GOT lost on the web or something?

EXACTLY my point name me one Muslim country that doesn't have a dictator in place, why is that? have you scratched your head a little to find some answers to this, or too damn busy bashing and spouting?

Before you go back on your high horses again, let me just point out, I am not giving my opinion here I am giving you facts.

I can back every word I said with evidence..
Very sad very very sad:(

[yozhik]

its your choice to live in a country and you have to take the consequences of their laws. Wether you disagree with them or not.

OR ... comprehend the difference between laws and statutes ... AND ... explore options of how to leave the society whose rules and policies are fraudulently marketed as the law of the land.

OR ... find a community of like minded people and change the rules the society lives by.

[pinnochio]

I mean are the american and english and whatever else soldiers that are in afghanistan. Trying to enforce Georges regime down thier throats?

They've mutilated and killed alot of people. Probably done far worse than cutting of hands and feet.

[eternal_spirit]

And now here's a roundup (http://www.fcnn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1812&Itemid=63) of 12 Arab and Muslim countries with laws severely punishing everything from apostasy to practicing Christianity to selling land to a Jew. But remember what the UN says: Israel - where the law of course allows you to be any religion you want - is a racist apartheid Jewish supremacist state. (oooh the irony)
Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.
Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.
Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.
Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.
Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.
Syria - The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.
Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.
Sudan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.
Pakistan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law
Qatar - Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.
Malaysia - Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.
The Maldives - In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives (http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11274985.html)


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67609

[pinnochio]

Like i said i agree. No form of harm to others should be condoned. Buts its not happening where i live

[dogsmilk]

SOCIETY. The community. The associates which one has. A voluntary association, organised and existing for mutual benefit of its members.

STATE. A body politic, united together for the purpose of promoting their mutual safety and advantage, by the joined efforts of their combined strength, occupying a definite territory, and politically organised under one government. People, territory, and government considered in combination.

This is why I don't quite get what you're saying.

If you define society as a voluntary association of the community then that community is ultimately governed by the state. That's the way it is. The state makes the laws, so I just don't see what relevance your concept of society has to the discussion.

Heh. Talk about responsibilty. If people aren't bashing the Jews they're bashing the Muslims. If they're not bashing Muslims they'll be bashing homosexuals. If they're not bashing homosexuals they'll be bashing immigrants. If they're not bashing immigrants, they'll be Eternal Spirit bashing everyone who isn't white.

My how well we've learned...

[yozhik]

Way to go eternal_anti-Muslim_fanatic!!
Only 45 more HATE posts to go and you've hit the big 14,000.
Woo hoo. You must be so proud.

:rolleyes:

[eternal_spirit]

Well literally speaking and not, you missed a few out botty bashers bashing a holes, a holes bashing botty bashers and alot of bishop bashing inbetween.

[adbasque]

And now here's a roundup (http://www.fcnn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1812&Itemid=63) of 12 Arab and Muslim countries with laws severely punishing everything from apostasy to practicing Christianity to selling land to a Jew. But remember what the UN says: Israel - where the law of course allows you to be any religion you want - is a racist apartheid Jewish supremacist state. (oooh the irony)
Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.
Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.
Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.
Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.
Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.
Syria - The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.
Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.
Sudan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.
Pakistan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law
Qatar - Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.
Malaysia - Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.
The Maldives - In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives (http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11274985.html)


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67609

So if the US constitution is there, and the government is killing people it's the constitution's fault, right?

let me say this for the last time.

There aren't any Islamic States, period!!

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic STATE right?

Tell me please what the hell are you doing on this forum if you believe in all this bullshit, what brought you here to a forum like this one??
GOT lost on the web or something?

EXACTLY my point name me one Muslim country that doesn't have a dictator in place, why is that? have you scratched your head a little to find some answers to this, or too damn busy bashing and spouting?

Before you go back on your high horses again, let me just point out, I am not giving my opinion here I am giving you facts.

I can back every word I said with evidence..
Very sad

[yozhik]

This is why I don't quite get what you're saying.

If you define society as a voluntary association of the community then that community is ultimately governed by the state. That's the way it is. The state makes the laws, so I just don't see what relevance your concept of society has to the discussion.



We're not actually going to agree on this one ... and it really is a HUGE topic.
I'm not dismissing your view or being disrespectful; I just don't want to derail this thread, because there is a vast wealth of information (pro and con) on the matter you raise, by itself.

Just as a thought starter, check this video form another thread on the forum and how this one man explains it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSeLVebtCds
[/URL]

oh ... some more here, including the declaration he was reading;

[URL="http://www.nostate.com/2508/american-anti-war-protestor-renounces-u-s-citizenship-at-rajghat-delhi/"]Link here ... (http://www.mmdnewswire.com/jeff-knaebel-renounced-citizenship-5274.html)

OK ... back to topic :)

[eternal_spirit]

Way to go eternal_anti-Muslim_fanatic!!
Only 45 more HATE posts to go and you've hit the big 14,000.
Woo hoo. You must be so proud.

:rolleyes:
Mr back to front illogical impossibility factor 10, proof, I posted facts and hatefull acts of evil religious maniacs, yet I'm the hater LOL!:rolleyes:

Check out death for apostasy (Muslims fear to leave their religion because of the consequences including death in some places) Be easier to leave the Mafia in one piece than Islam.

Whatever jihad boy, you must pin all the blame on those evil Satanic Westerners and infidel Jews. You should have kept your Semitic religious tribal disputes back where they started instead of infecting planet earth.

The Talmud and Koran such lovely books:(:rolleyes:

You fools serve the same fake God Yahweh aka Allah. Alot of nonsense and blather

[eternal_spirit]

Some of you boys need to put your Mohammed back in your pants!

[dogsmilk]

We're not actually going to agree on this one ... and it really is a HUGE topic.
I'm not dismissing your view or being disrespectful; I just don't want to derail this thread, because there is a vast wealth of information (pro and con) on the matter you raise, by itself.

Just as a thought starter, check this thread and how this one man explains it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSeLVebtCds
[/URL]

oh ... some more here, including the declaration he was reading;

[URL="http://www.nostate.com/2508/american-anti-war-protestor-renounces-u-s-citizenship-at-rajghat-delhi/"]Link here ... (http://www.mmdnewswire.com/jeff-knaebel-renounced-citizenship-5274.html)

OK ... back to topic :)

I'll have a look. I'm kind of enjoying being on a thread where you're getting frustrated with people claiming how evil Muslims are and how they're going to take over the world and impose Shariah law on us all.
The grand Mufti was in cahoots with Hitler you know. They control the oil and are conspiring against alternatives. Saudi businessmen own half the United States. They're moving to our countries and taking over as per their parasitic, Islamofascist nature. Their scripture sees all non-Muslims as inferior. You're obviously some kind of Muslim or ISI shill if you don't believe me:p

[adbasque]

Way to go eternal_anti-Muslim_fanatic!!
Only 45 more HATE posts to go and you've hit the big 14,000.
Woo hoo. You must be so proud.

:rolleyes:

It doesn't matter mate, they came for the Christians I said I am not a christian, they came for the Jews I said I am not a Jew, they came for the Muslims, I said I am not a Muslim, and they came for me, there was none to speak out for me.

Let him have his fun, he is helping them to divide and create hatred, he wants everbody to turn into hatred like him.
from what I've seen more and more bigots and bigotry on this forum anyway.
They'll probably realise it once it's too bloody late.

GO on GUYS BLAME EVERYTHING ON MUSLIMS, I HOPE YOU'RE SATISFIED.

ALWAYS LOOKING FOR A BOOGEYMAN, ALWAYS, IT's ALWAYS THE OTHERS WHO ARE MONSTERS....

[jesuitsdidit]

Is that your rebuttal?
Arguing the man, rather than the opinion?
Go cry me a fucking river.

How about giving us some of that "politically correct", mumbo jumbo?

You want to steal?
No problem ... but in THIS country, you risk losing a hand and a foot.
That's the deal.
Don't like it?
Two choices;
1) don't steal
2) go to a country with different rules

You want to fuck small children?
No problem ... but if we catch you doing it, we'll cut your cock off.
That's the deal.
Make your choice.

You want to make fraudulent expenses claims?
No problem ... but if you're caught doing it, there will be a public stoning and your property will be taken from you.
That's the deal.
Make your choice.

You want to be a criminal?
No problem ... all it needs is for you to be prepared to accept the cost.
That's the deal.
Make a choice.

You will not change behaviour of there are no consequences, or consequences that do not act as behaviour modifiers.
Political correctness is the work of the Fabians and the Common Purpose stooges.

way 2 go yozy baby
100% with you

the sooner it comes in here the better..

if its the only thing that works i say lets have it

dont forget tho
alot of crime due to ptb n their agenda..
we arent in a straight fight..

[yozhik]

I'll have a look. I'm kind of enjoying being on a thread where you're getting frustrated with people claiming how evil Muslims are and how they're going to take over the world and impose Shariah law on us all.
The grand Mufti was in cahoots with Hitler you know. They control the oil and are conspiring against alternatives. Saudi businessmen own half the United States. They're moving to our countries and taking over as per their parasitic, Islamofascist nature. Their scripture sees all non-Muslims as inferior. You're obviously some kind of Muslim or ISI shill if you don't believe me:p

He he ... well, if we can't have some fun and enjoy the forum, why the hell are we all here? :)

Frustrated? Nope - you have me pegged all wrong.
Amused, more like it.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me ... that's just ridiculous ... most won't; that's cool.
Shit - if we all agreed, all of the time, life would be so boring it wouldn't be worth living.
Voicing one's opinion and open (often emotional/heated) discussion isn't a popularity contest.
Want a popularity contest? Go join Britain's Got No Fucking Talent and No Fucking Hope or ingest some other brain numbing, soporific, mainstream media, sleeping pill.

I just wish people could keep to the point when debating issues and opinions on a forum!

I have no doubt there are evil Muslims; just as there is evil in every religion, race, nation, goverment, etc, etc, etc ...

I'm sure if anyone looks for it, just about every business group did business with the Nazis; so no surprises there!

... but once again, we have gone WAY off topic from the OP.

[dogsmilk]

I have no doubt there are evil Muslims; just as there is evil in every religion, race, nation, goverment, etc, etc, etc ...

I'm sure if anyone looks for it, just about every business group did business with the Nazis; so no surprises there!


Absolutely.

I just wish people could keep to the point when debating issues and opinions on a forum!


Well yes and no. Forums are geared around topics, but then if you're having a real face-to-face conversation it can start with how good the latest album by whoever is and finish with speculation on the meaning of existence, so forum debates are also a bit unnatural. Real conversations have tangents!

[rydeon]

yes they were wrong for stealing, but mutilating a human being this way under the banner of punishment, is wrong and unjust. It is not about political correctness, but acting humanely - the human body is sacred, a nicked phone is not.

by all means tho...cheating MPs with their expenses should have their possesions taken from them to the value of the FRAUD.

this is also to link barbaric laws with the taliban and the middle east so we will feel righteous 'going to war' with them

its all wrong, its all just about dictatorship on both sides :(

Well, half measures, cheek turnings and do-nothings haven't really been working have they in the west.
Vast sums are spent keeping criminals locked up and cosey with games consoles being updated for them!

Criminals keep re-offending and committing crimes whilly nilly.

When there's a threat of loosing bodily parts then I can tell you for naught that only the most desperate and hardended of criminals would tread in that territory...

[eternal_spirit]

Well, half measures, cheek turnings and do-nothings haven't really been working have they in the west.
Vast sums are spent keeping criminals locked up and cosey with games consoles being updated for them!
Oh sure prison is a real holiday location not! Don't believe the crap you see in the media. They try make out the system is soft, and then make you believe harsher more sever laws is the answer (that's just an excuse to bring in more BB facist laws in reality)

Like those interviews with criminals who re offend so they can get back to prison (how much did they get paid for lying, maybe they got an extra tube of toothpaste, a packet of fags and sloppy seconds in the showers after Mr big.

There's gangs and evil people who thrive of such enviroments it serves them and their fellows inside and outside prison. Sure there's also some desperate cases and undiagnosed mentally ill, who may find life in prison a better option, than on the street (becasue of their state of mind or whatever lots of other reasons cannot function in society)

Criminals keep re-offending and committing crimes whilly nilly.

When there's a threat of loosing bodily parts then I can tell you for naught that only the most desperate and hardended of criminals would tread in that territory...
not soSure you'd still feel the same if it was you a friend or family member who's lost some limbs. Should we also include in British laws hanging or stoning to death for adultery? or death for apostasy?

Think how much in benefits the government would save they wouldn't have to pay for single mothers who got pregant due to an affair (another one of their defensless targets always "white single girls" can't have their own people breeding too much!)


They'd have more money to house Muslims and various other immigrants


Yet allow Muslims to have multiple wives and many children, polygamy is ilegal in Britain unless you're Muslim (there's a loophole in the law due to their religion)

How about we go back hundreds of years - hung drawn and quatered, heads on sticks, rotting bodies hung from trees, on the public byways.

Sure Britain was such a crime free safe place to be back in those days:rolleyes: not!


NO TO SHARIA LAWS!

[yozhik]

eternal_muslim-hater ... let me guess ... you're a BNP voter, right? :rolleyes:

[eternal_spirit]

eternal_muslim-hater ... Let me guess ... You're a bnp voter, right? :rolleyes:

wrong

[yozhik]

wrong

Are you sure you didn't vote for the BNP? ... just asking ... I mean, I don't really care, how you vote is your business, right?

OK, maybe not a voter, but you work for them, yeah?
Maybe you write their leaflets or work in their policy development and national manifesto department?

[adbasque]

Are you sure you didn't vote for the BNP? ... just asking ... I mean, I don't really care, how you vote is your business, right?

OK, maybe not a voter, but you work for them, yeah?
Maybe you write their leaflets or work in their policy development and national manifesto department?

I have said the exact same thing in other threads, only a bnp member, agent would talk like that and 99% of his posts and threads are about Muslims and Islam.

pasting pages and pages of totally fabricated lies.

The same posts everywhere.

But let him rant, maybe one day he'll tire or when he realises he's making a real fool of himself.

[eternal_spirit]

Criminals keep re-offending and committing crimes whilly nilly.

When there's a threat of loosing bodily parts then I can tell you for naught that only the most desperate and hardended of criminals would tread in that territory...
Sure it stops some.
But the punishments also creates problems.
What about the limbless ones, what happens to these people with missing limbs? They become a burden on society and other people, have little chance of finding a job. :confused:

PS yozhik and adbasque you quit with your lies and false labels. Carry on and I'll make up labels for you both.

[yozhik]

PS yozhik and adbasque you quit with your lies and false labels. Carry on and I'll make up labels for you both.


You already have.
My favourite being; "jihad boy". :D


Whatever jihad boy ... You should have kept your Semitic religious tribal disputes back where they started instead of infecting planet earth.


Let him without sin, cast the first stone ...
Mr Pot ... meet Mr Kettle.

... what is this act now?
Playing "victim"?
Go running to mummy if your feelings get hurt?
Start something, then act all shocked, hurt and dishonoured if it bounces back and kicks you on the ass?

NB ... I asked questions; I did not label you.

eternal_muslim-hater ... let me guess ... you're a BNP voter, right? :rolleyes:
Are you sure you didn't vote for the BNP? ... just asking ... I mean, I don't really care, how you vote is your business, right?

OK, maybe not a voter, but you work for them, yeah?
Maybe you write their leaflets or work in their policy development and national manifesto department?

No labels, no statements, all questions.

[yozhik]

Sure it stops some.
But the punishments also creates problems.
What about the limbless ones, what happens to these people with missing limbs? They become a burden on society and other people, have little chance of finding a job. :confused:


Those issues are called consequences.

[eternal_spirit]

You already have.
According to your previous posts, I am a liar, a troll and a Muslim; all of them "labels".

Let him without sin, cast the first stone ...

Mr Pot ... meet Mr Kettle
You lied by saying I contributed nothing on topic for the thread which was a lie. So I called you a liar.

I asked if you were Muslim 3 times, but you refused to answer. Maybe you are Muslim.
Yes you are trolling.

Back on topic.
Sure it stops some.
But the punishments also creates problems.
What about the limbless ones, what happens to these people with missing limbs? They become a burden on society and other people, have little chance of finding a job. :confused:

[yozhik]

You lied by saying I contributed nothing on topic for the thread which was a lie. So I called you a liar.
Your post was a derailment of the original topic.
Not a lie. Possibly a debatable statement, but not a lie.

However, more to the point; calling someone a liar is labelling them, correct?

I asked if you were Muslim 3 times, but you refused to answer. Maybe you are Muslim.
1. there is no obligation requiring me to answer questions.
2. was this not an attempt to besmirch me? Given your obvious hatred for Muslims, I do not think anyone here would doubt your "meaning" or your "intent", by labelling any poster a "Muslim" or "possible Muslim". :rolleyes:

To be honest, I don't give a shit about the labels ... what I DO give a shit about is someone who labels and then gets all high and mighty and accuses others of labelling. In most worlds, that's called hypocrisy. I prefer to call it cowardly and being a soft cock.

Yes you are trolling.
Proof of this claim?
Please provide proof of this claim.

[lottie]

Just a reminder to keep the thread free from personal insults guys... :)

[yozhik]

Uh oh ... the hall monitors are here :D

[lottie]

Uh oh ... the hall monitors are here :D

:p... well...you're not gonna make 'Prefect' with that attitude!! :D

[yozhik]

:p... well...you're not gonna make 'Prefect' with that attitude!! :D

bribes? :rolleyes:

[yozhik]

How ironic for THIS thread ...

Just think eternal_Muslim_hater ... if the mods step in and ban you for all of the personal insults you make, not being able to type your messages of hate on the forum would be the same as ... hmmm ... cutting your hand off.

He he he ... just the perfect thread for that to be exercised.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/GoleeMD/Smilies/moon.gif

Oh, oh, oh ... the sweet irony of it all ...

[eternal_spirit]

How ironic for THIS thread ...

Just think eternal_Muslim_hater ... if the mods step in and ban you for all of the personal insults you make, not being able to type your messages of hate on the forum would be the same as ... hmmm ... cutting your hand off.

He he he ... just the perfect thread for that to be exercised.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/GoleeMD/Smilies/moon.gif

Oh, oh, oh ... the sweet irony of it all ...
More trolling altering my name just one example. This thread wasn't the start of the name calling. They (muslims) started it on other threads. So you don't know the facts.

How many times would you let people make up lies about you and attach false labels? such as BNP, Nazi, racist, Zionist, agent etc. I only tolerate it for so long before I call back.

The only irony here is I'm against extreme Sharia Islamic laws (hatred and insane acts of violence)
yet I'm called a hater lol:D

And you are for chopping off of limbs?

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) — An Islamic court in Somalia on Thursday cut off a hand and foot from each of four men convicted

Back on topic.
Sure it stops some.
But the punishments also creates problems.
What about the limbless ones, what happens to these people with missing limbs? They become a burden on society and other people, have little chance of finding a job. :confused:

[yozhik]

Back on topic.
Sure it stops some.


So it works, to some degree.
Great ... we can agree for once.

[jesuitsdidit]

So it works, to some degree.
Great ... we can agree for once.

you cant have a logical discussion with an agent
they r not here to discuss
they r here to mislead..

[eternal_spirit]

you cant have a logical discussion with an agent
they r not here to discuss
they r here to mislead..

No matter how many times you post this (prob 100 times maybe now) it's still a lie and one of your many delusions.

Are you for the chopping off of limbs?
Probably pro genital mutilation too like your Zionist pal Phelps (who believes only what he calls racial Jews should be allowed to live in Israel and no one else should be allowed to live there no other races, and presumably he means no Muslims too!)

[picha]

Your post was a derailment of the original topic.
Not a lie. Possibly a debatable statement, but not a lie.

However, more to the point; calling someone a liar is labelling them, correct?


1. there is no obligation requiring me to answer questions.
2. was this not an attempt to besmirch me? Given your obvious hatred for Muslims, I do not think anyone here would doubt your "meaning" or your "intent", by labelling any poster a "Muslim" or "possible Muslim". :rolleyes:

To be honest, I don't give a shit about the labels ... what I DO give a shit about is someone who labels and then gets all high and mighty and accuses others of labelling. In most worlds, that's called hypocrisy. I prefer to call it cowardly and being a soft cock.


Proof of this claim?
Please provide proof of this claim.

You seem like an extremely cold hearted individual.

[jesuitsdidit]

You seem like an extremely cold hearted individual.

cold-hearted is the one who will see
criminals ply their trade with no consequences..

the punishment is not there for enjoyment
the punishment is there to deter crime..

[picha]

cold-hearted is the one who will see
criminals ply their trade with no consequences..

the punishment is not there for enjoyment
the punishment is there to deter crime..

So being horribly disabled for life is a proportionate response to robbing something is it?

You sick wierd twisted freak!!!!!

[leviathanstaar]

tis an easy claim to make I say, when one knows they will never be faced with it.

Like I said before, get convicted of a crime you didnt commit with severe punishments.

Then take comfort in knowing there is no injustice occuring nor any occurance at all.

All because people across the sea can spot a blame culture.

[adbasque]

you cant have a logical discussion with an agent
they r not here to discuss
they r here to mislead..

Absolutely, well said
People started to see through them don't worry :)

[diamondgeezer]

let me say this for the last time.

There aren't any Islamic States, period!!


:rolleyes:Oh come now, get a grip...

''The term Islamic state refers to states that have adopted Islam, specifically the Shari'a, as the ideological foundation for their political institution''

^Quite simple really.
As I stated earlier, Islam has EVERYTHING to do with how these countries are...you trying to pass atrocities off as merely the actions of a despotic leader/govt & nothing to do with the religion itself is quite simply BOLLOCKS.

[adbasque]

:rolleyes:Oh come now, get a grip...



^Quite simple really.
As I stated earlier, Islam has EVERYTHING to do with how these countries are...you trying to pass atrocities off as merely the actions of a despotic leader/govt & nothing to do with the religion itself is quite simply BOLLOCKS.

OK so we can accuse the western constitution for everything that's happening murders, rapes, executions, wars, violence, drugs, you name it.

And let's accuse the people aswell.

[adbasque]

:rolleyes:Oh come now, get a grip...



^Quite simple really.
As I stated earlier, Islam has EVERYTHING to do with how these countries are...you trying to pass atrocities off as merely the actions of a despotic leader/govt & nothing to do with the religion itself is quite simply BOLLOCKS.

You know what I am tired of? repeating the same facts going out from one ear coming out the other, because some people have already made up their minds, or shall I say their minds were made up for them, to be precise.

Believe what you want, ok those countries are barbaric it's all to do with religion, I wonder how you're going to explain the barbarism elsewhere where there's no religion. :)

[eternal_spirit]

:rolleyes:Oh come now, get a grip...



^Quite simple really.
As I stated earlier, Islam has EVERYTHING to do with how these countries are...you trying to pass atrocities off as merely the actions of a despotic leader/govt & nothing to do with the religion itself is quite simply BOLLOCKS.

The Wars to spread Islam
On pages 66 and 67 Dr. Abu Zayd confesses clearly, "The thing which compelled Abu Bakr to invade Persia and the Byzantine Empire was not to seize their abundance, but rather to spread Islam". This claim is based on evidence that the generals of the Islamic armies used to call the countries to embrace Islam before they started fighting them. Khalid Ibn al-Walid sent a message to the princes of Persia saying: "After all, accept Islam and you will be safe, or pay the tribute; otherwise I will come to you with a people who desire death as you desire drinking wine."
Yes and no, Dr. Abu Zayd! Yes, we accept your confession that the war was to spread Islam. We agree that spreading Islam was an essential incentive for war. We are content with your unequivocal confession in regard to this matter. We have written these pages in order to denote these facts and nothing more—to prove that Islam was spread by sword and that the Islamic wars were offensive wars. Your confirmation and faithful narration of history in "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" have helped us to prove this fact. Thank you.
Yet, we disagree with you when you claim that material abundance was not another reason for these wars. We will not allow you to conceal this obvious fact because you yourself have unintentionally alluded to it when you listed the reasons for the invasion of Egypt—among them were "the abundance of Egypt and its yields". More than that, ponder what the Qur’an says: "Allah (God) promises you much booty that you will capture" [Qur’an 48:20].
Or let us listen to Muhammad’s explicit statement in which he (after exhorting his warriors to fight bravely) promised the plunder of the country. Did you forget, Dr. Abu Zayd, what Muhammad said? Let me remind you. Muhammad said, "You see, God will soon make you inherit their land, their treasures and make you sleep with their women" (Lit: make their women’s beds for you).
These plain, disgraceful words are recorded by Ibn Hisham on page 182 Vol. II, of his famous book, "Al Rod Al Anf", which all the researchers regard as a reliable reference. Thus, when Muslims invaded a certain land incited by the desire to possess the land, treasures, and women, they were actually fulfilling God’s promise as it was stated in the Qur’an and in Muhammad’s pledge.

"The Beginning and the End," by Ibn Kathir (vol. 7)
We would like to quote a few incidents from this book by Ibn Kathir who is one of the ancient Muslim scholars and chroniclers and a reliable source for all students of Islamic history. On page 2, we read the following, "At the inception of the year 13 of the Hajira, Abu Bakr was determined to draft soldiers to send them to Syria in compliance with the words of the Qur’an: Fight... those who were given the Scripture (Chapter 9:9); and also follow the example of the apostle of God who gathered the Muslims together to invade Syria before his death."
He also adds on page 9: "When Abu Bakr sent Khalid to Iraq, Abu Hurayra, who was one of Muhammad’s companions, he used to exhort Muslims to fight by telling them: ‘Hasten to the Houris’ (fair, black-eyed women)."
Those Houris are the nymphs of paradise who are particularly designated for the enjoyment of Muslims.
"‘The Blood of the Byzantine is more delicious’, Khalid said!"
On page 10, Ibn Khathir tells us that when the Byzantine leaders rejected Islam or paying tribute, Khalid told them, "We are people who drink blood. We were told that there is no blood that is more delicious than the blood of the Byzantines."
Such words well suit people like Khalid, Muhammad’s beloved friend and relative.
On page 13 we read the following, "Gregorius, one of the great princes of the Byzantines, said to Khalid: ‘What do you call us for?’ Khalid answered him: ‘That you testify that there is no God but the only God and that Muhammad is His messenger and apostle, and to acknowledge all that Muhammad received from God (namely pilgrimage, fasting of Ramadan, etc.).’ Gregorius said to him: ‘And if these are not accepted?’ Khalid responded, ‘Then pay the tribute.’ Gregorius said to him: ‘If we do not give the tribute?’ Khalid said: ‘Then war!"’
Ibn Kathir acknowledges (on page 21) that when the Muslims conquered Damascus, they seized St. John’s church and converted it into the largest mosque in Damascus today (The Umayyad Mosque). On page 55, we read also about the invasion of Jerusalem. On page 123, he states, "Umar Ibn al-Khattab wrote to Abdil-Rahman Ibn Rabi’a ordering him to invade the Turks (Turkey today)."

The Second Invasion of Africa
In page 165 Ibn Kathir records for us that: "The second invasion of Africa was accomplished because its people broke their pledge. That was in year 33 of the Hajira (The Moslem Calendar)."
Of course, the people of Africa broke the pledge because that pledge was imposed on them by force in lieu of death. Yet Muslims killed thousands of them. Ibn Kathir already mentioned in page 151 that, "’Uthman Ibn ’Affan ordered ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d to invade Africa. [He told him] ‘If you conquer it take 1/25 of its booty.’ ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d marched towards it at the head of an army of 20,000 soldiers. He conquered it and killed multitudes of people from among its inhabitants until the remnant were converted to Islam and became subject to the Arabs. ’Abdalla took his portion of the booty as ’Uthman told him, then he divided the rest."
How unfortunate were the African people! They were invaded by the Arabs who killed thousands of them, divided the booty, and forced the remnant to embrace Islam. When they broke the pact, the Muslims attacked them again. But are the black African people the only unfortunate people? Or are all the people of Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, all the Arab tribes, Spain, even the people of China and India, Cyprus and the Kurds, all the unfortunate peoples? All of these are unfortunate nations who became the victims of Islamic Law which detests human rights and persistently ignores their freedom.


The Invasion of Cyprus and the Kurds
Ibn Kathir tells us that in the year 28 of the Hajira, the conquest of Cyprus was accomplished after ’Abdulla Ibn al-Zubayr slaughtered a multitude of people—as usual. Ibn Khaldun also tells the story of the Kurds. In page 124 of Vol. II, he says, "Muslims met a number of Kurds. They called them to embrace Islam or pay the tribute. When they refused to do so they killed them and captured their women and children, then divided the booty."
As we see, Ibn Khaldun along with Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari and other chroniclers, ancient and contemporary such as Dr. Abu Zayd, recorded all the Islamic historical events in detail. Moreover, on every occasion Arab newspapers allude boastfully to these memorial episodes of Islamic history and shed light on these savage, wild offensive wars. For instance, we read in the prestigious Ahram newspaper which is published in Egypt, the following, "During the era of the Caliph ’Umar Ibn ’Abdul-’Aziz, Ibn Qutayba in the year 88H, he invaded some of the neighboring countries of Iran such as Bukhara, and Samarq and marched close to the Chinese border" (refer to the Ahram, Mary 26, 1986, p. 13).
In his book, "The Beginning and the End" (part 9), Ibn Kathir narrates in detail the history of this belligerent general, Ibn Qutayba. He records the story of his campaigns and refers to his biography.
We would like to conclude this chapter with a brief summary which Taqiy al-Din al-Nabahani presents in his book, "The Islamic State" (pp. 121 and 122). He summarizes the history of Islamic offensive wars against the neighboring peaceful countries by saying, "Muhammad had begun to send troops and initiate campaigns against the Syrian borders such as the campaign of Mu’ta and Tabuk. Then the rightly guided caliphs ruled after him and the conquest continued. (The Arabs) conquered Iraq, Persia, and Syria whose faith was Christianity and which were inhabited by the Syrians, Armenians, some Jews and some Byzantines. Then Egypt and North Africa were conquered. When the Umayyad took over after the rightly guided caliphs, they conquered the Sind, Khawarizm, and Samarqand. They annexed them to the lands of the Islamic state."
According to all Muslim chroniclers, it is well documented that Armenia and Morocco were conquered during the era of ’Abdul-Malik Ibn Marwan. When his son, al-Walid, assumed the throne, he invaded India and Andalusia.
Also, Dr. ’Afifi Abdul-Fattah, the Muslim scholar, encapsulates the whole principle in a few explicit, straightforward words, as he says (page 382 of his famous book "The Spirit of the Islamic Religion"), "Islam has acknowledged war in order to exalt the word of God. This is a fight for God’s cause."
He also adds in p. 390, "Before the Islamic state declares war against another state, it should give (the other state) the choice between Islam, tribute or war."
We need not say anything more than that. Maybe this is what Muslims mean when they say, "We believe in human freedom and man’s right to choose according to his own will! We present him with three options, and he has the right to choose as he wishes — either to become a Muslim and pay alms to the Caliph of the Muslims, or pay the tribute and submit to Islamic rule, or we kill him."
Let the reader ponder the Muslim contradiction that a man has the right to choose whatever he wants within the Islamic context of individual freedom.


Conclusion
These are the Islamic offensive wars, my dear reader. We have already surveyed the Qur’anic verses which were expounded by both the great ancient and the contemporary Muslim scholars. We also alluded to the sayings of Muhammad, his own deeds and his orders to his companions, relatives and successors. We witnessed the bloody events of Islamic history narrating for us what Muslims did after the death of Muhammad and how they carried out his orders and the commandments of the Qur’an—how they fought with the People of the Book, the Jew and the Christian, until they paid tribute with humiliation and defeat. We have witnessed how they plundered the lands, killed the unfortunate, and captured women and children for no reason.
Moreover, we have already discussed all the matters pertaining to the death penalty of an apostate who dares to relinquish the Islamic faith and to embrace another religion, or to become an atheist. We also referred to an abundance of evidences and interpretations of Muslim scholars along with the deeds and sayings of Muhammad in this respect. He himself gave orders to kill anyone who is an apostate from Islam such as Umm Mirwan as the Azhar and all the Chroniclers denoted, and all those apostates who fled to Mecca.
Regarding offensive wars or imposing the Islamic religion on people by war, Muhammad said: "I was commanded to fight people until they say there is no God but the only God, and Muhammad is the apostle of God, and they perform all the Islamic ordinances and rituals."
We also examined Muhammad’s attitude towards the apostate. He made it clear that the apostate must be sentenced to death. He said about those who relinquish Islam: "Whoever changes his faith...kill him!"
Muhammad indicated that is it unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three cases: Unbelief after belief, adultery after integrity (or being married) and killing a soul without any right. The first case refers to the death penalty of the apostate and the oppression of his freedom and right to embrace any religion other than Islam Those are the clear claims of the Islamic religion as well as of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, who always uttered at the beginning of every prayer or sermon, the following phrase, "In the name of Allah—the Compassionate, the Merciful!"
We talked about individual freedom and human rights! This is the prophet of freedom, mercy, tolerance and human dignity!
Has the veil been removed?
Is the deception over?
Judge for yourself.


http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabana/TruthAboutIslam3.htm

[yozhik]

Another off topic, Muslim hating, emotional tirade from eternal_hate_agent.

How do you spell R-A-N-T ?

[yozhik]

You seem like an extremely cold hearted individual.

You're entitled to your opinion.
Not that it is relevant nor does it progress the discussion.

[yozhik]

tis an easy claim to make I say, when one knows they will never be faced with it.

Like I said before, get convicted of a crime you didnt commit with severe punishments.

Then take comfort in knowing there is no injustice occuring nor any occurance at all.

All because people across the sea can spot a blame culture.

If you didn't commit it, then there is no intent.
All of my posts re: taking responsibility for your actions and the consequences of that behaviour have also stipulated INTENTIONALLY causing harm, injury or loss.

Didn't commit = no intent.

So let me state it clearly, once again ...

If you choose to be a member of a society where the rules and social customs prescribe to the cutting off of limbs for stealing, and you know this, and you then intentionally cause harm, loss or injury to a fellow man, woman or child, then you need to accept the consequences of your behaviour.

You have knowledge of the consequences, you have chosen to be a member of that society and you have intentionally broken the rules of the society in which you claim belonging. You are responsible for your fate.

Do I agree with the punishment?
Irrelevant.

Do I condone it?
Irrelevant.

Would I choose to live in it?
Irrelevant.

This is about being responsible for one's actions and accepting the consequences of one's behaviour.
Nothing more; nothing less.

Cold hearted?
Irrelevant.

Trolling?
Don't see how.

Muslim loving?
Irrelevant.

[eternal_spirit]

Another off topic, Muslim hating, emotional tirade from eternal_hate_agent.

How do you spell R-A-N-T ?
The Second Invasion of Africa it's related to the topic and is more proof of hatred carried out by Muslims you fool and non Muslim hater.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1079218&postcount=138

[yozhik]

The Second Invasion of Africa it's related to the topic and is more proof of hatred carried out by Muslims you fool and non Muslim hater.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1079218&postcount=138

Bullshit.

The topic is thieves getting a hand and a foot cut off for stealing in Somalia.
Nothing to do with YOUR topic du jour.

Start your own hate thread, but stop derailing this one.

And you're damn fucking right I'm not a Muslim hater!
That is a badge I wear with immense pride.
I'm not a hater of race, colour or religion.

[eternal_spirit]

Bullshit.

The topic is thieves getting a hand and a foot cut off for stealing in Somalia.
Nothing to do with YOUR topic du jour.

Start your own hate thread, but stop derailing this one.

And you're damn fucking right I'm not a Muslim hater!
That is a badge I wear with immense pride.
I'm not a hater of race, colour or religion.

No I meant you hate none Muslims like me who proves your religion is full of hate.

[yozhik]

No I meant you hate none Muslims like me who proves your religion is full of hate.

My religion?
My religion is full of hate?
:D

OK Mr Clairvoyant ... enlighten us all; what is "my religion"?
I can't wait to read this answer.

And you even have the gall to use the word "proves"?

"none [sic] Muslims like me who proves your religion is full of hate"
:D :D :D
Too funny on SO MANY levels.
You haven't "proven" jack shit.
You have no idea what "my religion" is.

Fuck me ... seriously dude - your post needs to be in the comedy section or the Redneck Hall of Fame.
No I meant you hate none Muslims like me who proves your religion is full of hate.

:D :D :D :D :D

[adbasque]

Bullshit.

Yes mate there's lots of it lately

[eternal_spirit]

Fuck me ... seriously dude - your post needs to be in the comedy section or the Redneck Hall of Fame.


:D :D :D :D :D
I got you you hate white folk. Bet you don't know the true origin of the word redneck.

[eternal_spirit]

And you even have the gall to use the word "proves"?

" religion is full of hate"


You haven't "proven" jack shit.



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67609
proof easy and I could post lots more

[yozhik]

I got you you hate white folk. Bet you don't know the true origin of the word redneck.

So now I hate white people too?
This just gets more and more ludicrous.

Answer the question; you made an accusation regarding "my religion" ... so what is "my religion"?
My religion?
My religion is full of hate?
:D

OK Mr Clairvoyant ... enlighten us all; what is "my religion"?
I can't wait to read this answer.
At least be a man and stand behind your own accusations.

Oh ... and to respond to your "bet" ... my comprehension of the term "redneck" and its roots, is it refers to "common" farm folk, who after toiling in the sun, would be sunburnt around the neckline/collar.

Now I might be wrong, but I believe that is the commonly held "origin" of the word.
However, given that I was CLEARLY referring to comedy, it doesn't take someone with the IQ of a snowpea to comprehend that I was not using it in its original form, but rather its colloquial use.

[eternal_spirit]

So now I hate white people too?
This just gets more and more ludicrous.
You wouldn't call a black man a nigger redneck is considered by some a racial slur (and all that its supposed to represent - stupid inbred backwards, dumb white folks etc etc)

How did the word nigger come to be? Maybe because there's a country called Niger in Africa, or slang for Negro.

Redneck you're real close (the first slaves in America were white English/Irish) one reason they shipped in blacks because they were used to the hot sun.

Answer the question; you made an accusation regarding "my religion" ... so what is "my religion"?


Take it it's not Islam :D

I asked 3 times and you haven't answered.


And now here's a post (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023205.php) about a Somali Christian who was murdered at a wedding for converting away from Islam:Due to the lack of comprehension of the service by any of the guests, Nur asked that the contents of the wedding be translated into the Somali vernacular. The Sheik performing the ceremony was aware of Nur's conversion to Christianity, however, and took offense to the request. He declared him to be guilty of apostasy and asked a guard to "silence" him. Nur was encouraged to leave the ceremony, and upon exiting, he was shot and killed by the armed guard.... Justification: sharia law commands the slaying of the apostate. In the past nine months, six Somali Christians have been martyred, including Nur.

[yozhik]

You wouldn't call a black man a nigger redneck is considered by some a racial slur (and all that its supposed to represent - stupid inbred backwards, dumb white folks etc etc)

How did the word nigger come to be? Maybe because there's a country called Niger in Africa, or slang for Negro.

Redneck you're real close (the first slaves in America were white English/Irish) one reason they shipped in blacks because they were used to the hot sun.
So do I get any points?
Go through to the bonus round?
Pass go and collect $200?
Can I buy a consonant?
:D


Take it it's not Islam :D

I asked 3 times and you haven't answered.
But I thought you knew.
You seemed so sure in your accusations. :D


FOOTNOTE:
you're lucky its Saturday night and I'm REALLY enjoying one or two (too many) capipirinha, or I'd be forced to whip out a can of whoop ass on ya :rolleyes:

[eternal_spirit]

Yozhik :D We've both jumped to conclusions, so call it quits.

[lizzy]

Please allow me to 'second' that yozhik ;)

It is NOT people eternal_spirit 'hates'.......It is the gruesomeness found in religious texts of the Talmud and the Koran and some of the more perverse practices done in the name of religion.

[yozhik]

Please allow me to 'second' that yozhik ;)

It is NOT people eternal_spirit 'hates'.......It is the gruesomeness found in religious texts of the Talmud and the Koran and some of the more perverse practices done in the name of religion.

Damn ... I really want to enjoy my caipirinha ... but that XXL can of whoops ass is screaming at me ... begging me to caress it ... pleading with me to undress it, rip its lid off, and unleash it's wanton power upon my keyboard ...

Fuck it ... this caipirinha is just too damn tasty ... the can of whoop ass will still be there tomorrow.

BUT ... as a warning shot across your bow ... the majority of eternal_thingy's posts denigrate Muslims themselves, as well as the religion.

Just one little example; referring to me as "jihad boy" ... ummmm ... I don't know what it is, but that kinda smells a little bit like its directed at a human being, rather than a book ... don't ya think? :rolleyes:

OK ... enough ... this is taking up valuable drinking time and my whorish can of whip ass is sending really evil looks at me for not including her in my keyboard foreplay.

[lizzy]

your crazy yoshik :)...whatever that caipirinha is ,I don't want on my Sunday dinner table:eek: , LOL....

Your political comments are great,( always learn something)......I knew I should have stayed out of this particular religious arena :D ....;)

but my opinion stands....:cool:

[yozhik]

your crazy yoshik :)...whatever that caipirinha is ,I don't want on my Sunday dinner table:eek: , LOL....

Caiparinha

1 whole lime
2 tsp palm sugar
60ml cachaca
crushed ice
Muddle limes and palm sugar.
Add ice and Cachaca, shake and pour into chilled short glass.
Top with more crushed ice and limes to garnish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGw2IPFhy5k

;)

[eternal_spirit]

Please allow me to 'second' that yozhik ;)

It is NOT people eternal_spirit 'hates'.......It is the gruesomeness found in religious texts of the Talmud and the Koran and some of the more perverse practices done in the name of religion.
Hi Liz :D yes and Muslims suffer at the hands of fellow Muslims due to Shariah and religious laws and religious text. The control, fear and brainwashing in Islam is fact.

Check out death for apostasy (Muslims fear to leave their religion because of the consequences including death in some places) Be easier to leave the Mafia in one piece than Islam.

[yozhik]

Hi Liz :D yes and Muslims suffer at the hands of fellow Muslims due to Shariah and religious laws and religious text. The control, fear and brainwashing in Islam is fact.

Check out death for apostasy (Muslims fear to leave their religion because of the consequences including death in some places) Be easier to leave the Mafia in one piece than Islam.

Your Muslim thread is over there ---------------------------------->

The OP's thread about an incident in Somalia, involving thieves, is HERE.

The derailing poster will be leaving Platform 1 in 15 seconds ... ALL ABOARD!
(mind the gap)

[adbasque]

Your Muslim thread is over there ---------------------------------->

The OP's thread about an incident in Somalia, involving thieves, is HERE.

The derailing poster will be leaving Platform 1 in 15 seconds ... ALL ABOARD!
(mind the gap)

Hold on!! got my foot stuck in the damn gap again:rolleyes:

[reggievandam]

I DECLARE THIS THREAD OFFICIALLY...WTF???

http://www.gamepro.com/nintendo/ds/games/news/images/177388-1-1.jpg

[yozhik]

I DECLARE THIS THREAD OFFICIALLY...WTF???

http://www.gamepro.com/nintendo/ds/games/news/images/177388-1-1.jpg

Yeah ... but its entertaining, ain't it? :D

[eternal_spirit]

7. Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.
Warning! This short article (http://www.rawa.org/handcut3.htm) has photos of severed hands. The reader should never lose sight of the fact that this punishment is prescribed in the Quran, the eternal word of Allah.



It does not exist only in the fevered imagination of a violent and sick radical regime like the Taliban, which once ruled in Afghanistan.
Warning! This page (http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/300/360/364/364.66/kadi/) has photos of thieves getting their hands chopped off. They also show beheadings.
This news report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1428159.stm) shows a man getting his hand chopped off in Nigeria.
A Saudi cleric justifies chopping off hands here (http://memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/385.htm).
The Quran says:
5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)
At first glance, verse 39 seems to accept repentance before the thief’s hand is cut off.


But the hadith states emphatically that repentance is acceptable only after mutilation. Muhammad himself says that even if his own daughter, Fatima, were to steal and then intercede that her hand should not be cut off, he would still have to cut it off (Bukhari, Punishments, no. 6788; online source (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/081.sbt.html#008.081.779))
This hadith (no. 792 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/081.sbt.html#008.081.779)) repeats that a woman’s hand was cut off, even though some interceded for her so that she would not suffer from this atrocity. Muhammad says she must be punished regardless of this request. Islam means business.
This is a parallel hadith in Muslim (no. 4187 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4187)). Scroll a little above to view the section title. Also, note the hadith below this linked one.
The early legal scholar Malik says that cutting off a hand is obligatory even if the thief returns the stolen item or intercession is made on his behalf before the Caliph: Here (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/041.mmt.html#041.41.9.29) and here (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/041.mmt.html#041.41.7.21).