UK 'must log' phone and web use

[paradise_1000]

UK 'must log' phone and web use
Computer keyboard with padlock
Security services face a constant battle to keep up with technological advances

All internet and phone traffic should be recorded to help the fight against terrorism, according to one of the UK's former spy chiefs.

Civil rights campaigners have criticised ministers' plans to log details of such contact as "Orwellian".

But Sir David Pepper, who ran the GCHQ listening centre for five years, told the BBC lives would be at risk if the state could not track communication.

Agencies faced "enormous pressure" to keep up with technology, he said.

"It's a constant arms race, if you like. As more technology, different technology becomes available, the balance will shift constantly."

The work of GCHQ, which provides intelligence on foreign and domestic threats, is so secretive that until the 1980s the government refused to discuss its existence.

The thing you worry about most is the attack that you haven't seen coming
Sir David Pepper

In his first interview since departing as its director in 2008, Sir David told BBC2 programme Who's Watching You that the agency had "very sophisticated targets".

"There are plenty of people who will do all they can to make themselves difficult to find.

"It puts enormous pressure on you. Everybody in the agency is acutely aware that if they don't do their job properly one of the consequences may be another terrorist outrage.

"The thing you worry about most is the attack that you haven't seen coming."

Last year, then Home Secretary Jacqui Smith announced plans for a database to record details of the times and dates of messages and phone calls but said the content of conversations would not be kept.

She said such data was used as "important evidence in 95% of serious crime cases" and in almost all security service operations.

'Pervasive'

Details of the times, dates, duration and locations of mobile phone calls, numbers called, website visited and addresses e-mailed are already stored by telecoms companies for 12 months under a voluntary agreement.

However, the Liberal Democrats said the government's plans were "incompatible with a free country and a free people".

In February, the Lords constitution committee said electronic surveillance and collection of personal data had become "pervasive" in British society.

Its members said the situation threatened to undermine democracy.

However, Sir David said he was speaking out to help people understand that agencies were there to protect them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8087530.stm


My view is that they have done this all along :mad: makes me laugh they keep pushing the control bastards

"The thing you worry about most is the attack that you haven't seen coming."

ffs they said that before they did 77 :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[smoke n mirrors]

This thread will cheer you up FBI Going Dark (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66874&highlight=fbi+dark) In one of the posts is a link to a youtube entry called "Privacy is dead get over it" worth a watch if you haven't already seen it.

If its in the US, Canada, Aus or NZ it will be in the UK...we are all test beds to screw each other eventually. TPTB like to spread the trials around so we don't feel left out. :)

.

[Ian2day]

This has come too late for me. As everything that I ever had of any worth has been long time stolen by all the cunts in the world.

[dogsmilk]

"There are plenty of people who will do all they can to make themselves difficult to find.




Well yeah, if you were doing some big evil criminal or terrorist stuff you would wouldn't you?

So the answer to this is to log millions and millions of people googling shopping websites, e-mails saying Happy birthday! I'll see you on Saturday night. and text messages saying whr r u? r u comin over?.

Makes sense...

[Ian2day]

Well yeah, if you were doing some big evil criminal or terrorist stuff you would wouldn't you?

So the answer to this is to log millions and millions of people googling shopping websites, e-mails saying Happy birthday! I'll see you on Saturday night. and text messages saying whr r u? r u comin over?.

Makes sense...

It does to tptb as they be the ones doing all the IP theft. There must be loads of other people like me who have gone on in their lives just writing stuff down on a computer which is of worth but just not realised it was any good due to a shit childhood. tptb know this and will be doing all that they can to ensure that they control the flow of all informatrion. Creating little bubbles arround their Mark so as to isolate them and not associate anything they do as being any good or of worth.

[dogsmilk]

It does to tptb as they be the ones doing all the IP theft. There must be loads of other people like me who have gone on in their lives just writing stuff down on a computer which is of worth but just not realised it was any good due to a shit childhood. tptb know this and will be doing all that they can to ensure that they control the flow of all informatrion. Creating little bubbles arround their Mark so as to isolate them and not associate anything they do as being any good or of worth.

You may believe you have control by gaining power over data, but ultimately the sheer volume of irrelevant chatter is overwhelming. How may millions of communications take place every day? Not that I don't think it's sinister, but I also think it's a bit futile.

And I also think this 'helps us fight terror and crime' stuff is so patently false. It's relatively easy to hide who's communicating. Just go to an internet cafe and e-mail from a hotmail or gmail account you have under a fake name. Use a laptop to leech off someone else's wi-fi they haven't passworded.
If you need a warrant to monitor a specific person's communications, then this would arguably be more effective as you're more likely to hide everything if you're doing something dodgy as you know it's tracked, whereas you might get complacent if you think nobody is watching if they have no reason to suspect you. So I think the reasoning they present is just bullshit.

[yozhik]

Well yeah, if you were doing some big evil criminal or terrorist stuff you would wouldn't you?

So the answer to this is to log millions and millions of people googling shopping websites, e-mails saying Happy birthday! I'll see you on Saturday night. and text messages saying whr r u? r u comin over?.

Makes sense...

Hence the reason Big Brother is now airing its 10th Season ... 10 series of desensitising ... 10 series to programme us to "enjoy" being watched, or watching others, 24 hours a day.

Big Brother isn't "reality TV", it isn't "entertainment" ... it is a trial run for the future ... and guess what? The UK sheeple, glued to their TV sets like programmed muppets, have bought it, hook line and sinker.

What message has it sent?
"Go ahead ... monitor us ... monitor everything we do ... we allow it, better yet, we even enjoy it."

One thing I can almost guarantee ... if programmes like Big Brother had not existed for 10 seasons ... the level of intrusion detailed in the OP's article would never be permitted. There would have been outrage.

The Big Brother programming, and others like it, has served its purpose well.

[tyler]

Oh so everything is ok then? No need to worry says our man from the government!! All go back to sleep. Big Brother will look after you.

The only terrorists we have to worry about are the government, MI5, Mossad and it's stooges in GCHQ and on the internet.

All of our phone calls have been routed through the American listening base in Menwith Hill, Yorkshire for decades. There is no privacy.

[xxxx]

yeah i reckon, big brother started at around the same time as the blanket cctv network came in didn't it? get us all used to being on the fucking telly. we're all fucking stars.

[tyler]

yeah i reckon, big brother started at around the same time as the blanket cctv network came in didn't it? get us all used to being on the fucking telly. we're all fucking stars.

Presumably you have never read "1984"?

[yozhik]

Oh so everything is ok then? No need to worry says our man from the government!! All go back to sleep. Big Brother will look after you.

The only terrorists we have to worry about are the government, MI5, Mossad and it's stooges in GCHQ and on the internet.

All of our phone calls have been routed through the American listening base in Menwith Hill, Yorkshire for decades. There is no privacy.

No.

It most definitely is NOT ok.

There might be a little something we can all do.
I say might - it could be nothing more than a flea bite on an elephant, but at least we're trying, right?

Oh - and thanks to zero1 for introducing me to this :)

From the site, comes this explanation;
Spoofing ECHELON helps in a number of ways:

If enough people did this the ECHELON system would be overwhelmed and would grind to a halt. In addition, the inclusion of thousands or millions of extra messages with the keywords in the would increase the signal-to-noise level of the whole system while providing lots of "false positives", making the ECHELON system less and less reliable over time.

We suggest that when sending an email, grab a chunk of the ECHELON keywords and paste them into your email message at the top or bottom. In theory, this will cause decreased effectiveness of the ECHELON system since it has to deal with and process more communicaton containing the keywords.

Click Me - "What is Echelon" (http://www.echelonspoofer.com/what.htm)

Click Me - "How To Use It" (http://www.echelonspoofer.com/how.htm)

Click Me - "Echelon Spoof Tool" (http://www.echelonspoofer.com/)

If we all used this in our IM's and emails, it might start making a difference ... just maybe.
I now have it in my email signature.
Its non-intrusive, you can put it in tiny font ... no harm, right?

How many on this forum?
If we all did it and also managed to tell a few people about it ... how many could we reach?
Do it right, it could even become viral :D

Example of the Echelon in action :) ;

Asset DONCAF Regli TDM Capricorn Lanceros MKDELTA Cohiba BfV sweep C3I TDR hit word cordite CFD r00t BMDO COSMOS-2224 LLC e95 Lynch JIC Sugar Grove black-bag Siemens Yakima Telex SAP condor OTAR CIDA FDM ECCM Commecen PARASAR UNCPCJ STEP 737 CIA security forces Planet-1 Alouette NSWC AT&T SHS mania Chicago Crust wire transfer SORO JSOF! C3IP Rivera bird dog CATO osco hate pmk 40 Tanzania 64 Vauxhall Cross HK-G3 ISSSP interception watchers COCOT forcast Comirex SAMU Toeffler Uzi white noise JAVA NSO SOCIMI 821 SMG EODN bronze e-cash advisors hope jihad Small Pox charcoal wetsu SAW Sayeret Golani GSG-9 NAWAS Patel M3 Sears Tower Johohonbu SORT amatol PPS HK-MP5 Oratory eternity server Forte Morgan NAICC SARL

Generated by www.EchelonSpoofer.com

[xxxx]

Presumably you have never read "1984"?

don't be such a tool, everyone in the fucking world has read 1984. my post made sense, i don't need to explain myself to a cuntrag like you.

[dogsmilk]

Hence the reason Big Brother is now airing its 10th Season ... 10 series of desensitising ... 10 series to programme us to "enjoy" being watched, or watching others, 24 hours a day.

Big Brother isn't "reality TV", it isn't "entertainment" ... it is a trial run for the future ... and guess what? The UK sheeple, glued to their TV sets like programmed muppets, have bought it, hook line and sinker.

What message has it sent?
"Go ahead ... monitor us ... monitor everything we do ... we allow it, better yet, we even enjoy it."

One thing I can almost guarantee ... if programmes like Big Brother had not existed for 10 seasons ... the level of intrusion detailed in the OP's article would never be permitted. There would have been outrage.

The Big Brother programming, and others like it, has served its purpose well.

In actuality, I don't think you can just blame big brother. I think there are a multitude of ways in which people get used to being watched and I think this dovetails with the keeping of private data - in my experience younger people are far less likely to be concerned about what data is kept on them than older people. I don't think it's correct that big brother is a "trial run" or something, I think that there's a general cultural shift towards the acceptance that everyone is watching everyone else and big brother arises as part of a general fascination with reality tv and the filming of people's lives. I think xxxx is totally correct with saying "we're all fucking stars". We don't just want to be on big brother, we like getting on telly just doing our job, buying a house, giving a silly grin to the camera when we're arrested while the police are filmed doing their job.
Take facebook even - I'm totally astounded at the wealth of information about their personal lives people put on it while accepting as friends who can view this shit people they don't actually know.

[yozhik]

In actuality, I don't think you can just blame big brother. I think there are a multitude of ways in which people get used to being watched and I think this dovetails with the keeping of private data - in my experience younger people are far less likely to be concerned about what data is kept on them than older people. I don't think it's correct that big brother is a "trial run" or something, I think that there's a general cultural shift towards the acceptance that everyone is watching everyone else and big brother arises as part of a general fascination with reality tv and the filming of people's lives. I think xxxx is totally correct with saying "we're all fucking stars". We don't just want to be on big brother, we like getting on telly just doing our job, buying a house, giving a silly grin to the camera when we're arrested while the police are filmed doing their job.
Take facebook even - I'm totally astounded at the wealth of information about their personal lives people put on it while accepting as friends who can view this shit people they don't actually know.

I agree with you.

If my post inferred that Big Brother was the ONLY tool in their toolbox, I'll repost it.
I was using it as a prime example of how our culture has changed to one accepting of 24 hour intrusion.
CCTV is another prime example.
Internet shopping.
Giving personal data over the phone.
There are many, many examples.

Big Brother was merely a "topical" reference.
Didn't mean to trivialize the topic.

[smoke n mirrors]

don't be such a tool, everyone in the fucking world has read 1984. my post made sense, i don't need to explain myself to a cuntrag like you.


An asset, To Pragmatic Truth Brigade, we're lapping it up like good little puppies. The bitch will be most amused. Its lucky we have emergency milk rations to help us through.

Did you see what I did there? I hope so...I wouldn't want to have to explain myself, to an absorbent towel with wings! ;)

LL

.

[dogsmilk]

I agree with you.


*falls off chair*

:D

[yozhik]

*falls off chair*

:D

I know ... I actually dictated the post to my wife.
I couldn't bring myself to typing it.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/GoleeMD/Smilies/moon.gif :D

[Ian2day]

No.

It most definitely is NOT ok.

There might be a little something we can all do.
I say might - it could be nothing more than a flea bite on an elephant, but at least we're trying, right?

Oh - and thanks to zero1 for introducing me to this :)

From the site, comes this explanation;


Click Me - "What is Echelon" (http://www.echelonspoofer.com/what.htm)

Click Me - "How To Use It" (http://www.echelonspoofer.com/how.htm)

Click Me - "Echelon Spoof Tool" (http://www.echelonspoofer.com/)

If we all used this in our IM's and emails, it might start making a difference ... just maybe.
I now have it in my email signature.
Its non-intrusive, you can put it in tiny font ... no harm, right?

How many on this forum?
If we all did it and also managed to tell a few people about it ... how many could we reach?
Do it right, it could even become viral :D

Example of the Echelon in action :) ;

Asset DONCAF Regli TDM Capricorn Lanceros MKDELTA Cohiba BfV sweep C3I TDR hit word cordite CFD r00t BMDO COSMOS-2224 LLC e95 Lynch JIC Sugar Grove black-bag Siemens Yakima Telex SAP condor OTAR CIDA FDM ECCM Commecen PARASAR UNCPCJ STEP 737 CIA security forces Planet-1 Alouette NSWC AT&T SHS mania Chicago Crust wire transfer SORO JSOF! C3IP Rivera bird dog CATO osco hate pmk 40 Tanzania 64 Vauxhall Cross HK-G3 ISSSP interception watchers COCOT forcast Comirex SAMU Toeffler Uzi white noise JAVA NSO SOCIMI 821 SMG EODN bronze e-cash advisors hope jihad Small Pox charcoal wetsu SAW Sayeret Golani GSG-9 NAWAS Patel M3 Sears Tower Johohonbu SORT amatol PPS HK-MP5 Oratory eternity server Forte Morgan NAICC SARL

Generated by www.EchelonSpoofer.com (http://www.EchelonSpoofer.com)

Doing this would negate the need for a more refined version though. Also meaning that real terrorists would be harder to find. Meaning more money spent on black ops programs to monitor adn control everyone. I think that we have reached a fork in the road. Either we have full protection and security for the person and their communications and data or we have total privacy or even full public disclosure and record keeping. Whatever route is taken is going to see the way that we handle personal data change. Now from my own experience I wouldn't trust anyone let alone the system to get it right.

[yozhik]

Doing this would negate the need for a more refined version though. Also meaning that real terrorists would be harder to find. Meaning more money spent on black ops programs to monitor adn control everyone. I think that we have reached a fork in the road. Either we have full protection and security for the person and their communications and data or we have total privacy or even full public disclosure and record keeping. Whatever route is taken is going to see the way that we handle personal data change. Now from my own experience I wouldn't trust anyone let alone the system to get it right.

Seriously ... how many "real terrorists" are there?
I mean ... let's drop the media bullshit and the false flag operations ... in all reality, propaganda, hype and government sponsered fear aside ... how much REALLY exists?

I strongly suggest, very fucking little.

[Ian2day]

Seriously ... how many "real terrorists" are there?
I mean ... let's drop the media bullshit and the false flag operations ... in all reality, propaganda, hype and government sponsered fear aside ... how much REALLY exists?

I strongly suggest, very fucking little.

Perhaps syntheticly created would be a better term to use. However the definition of terrorism is a broad thing. First we have to have a legal definition of what the word terrorism is. Otherwise they will use that legalese for full effect.

[yozhik]

Perhaps syntheticly created would be a better term to use. However the definition of terrorism is a broad thing. First we have to have a legal definition of what the word terrorism is. Otherwise they will use that legalese for full effect.

My preference is to use the standard "plain English" definition for terrorism, which would place all government officials, departments, spin doctors and lackies into Guantanamo with their favourite waterboarding buddy.

The policies of the government are the epitome of terrorism and yet they have the audacity and arrogance to point the finger at us.

[smoke n mirrors]

My preference is to use the standard "plain English" definition for terrorism, which would place all government officials, departments, spin doctors and lackies into Guantanamo with their favourite waterboarding buddy.

The policies of the government are the epitome of terrorism and yet they have the audacity and arrogance to point the finger at us.

amen

.

[dude111]

My view is that they have done this all along :mad:Yes but they were doing it ILLEGIALLY and couldnt use anything they heard....

Making it legal will give them full power....

[paradise_1000]

Yes but they were doing it ILLEGIALLY and couldnt use anything they heard....

Making it legal will give them full power....

most defiantly :mad: