Punishments for Leaving Islam & Kaffirs/infidels

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.mererhetoric.com/images/heds/islam09.jpg Here's an article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78736) about a top Christian Palestinian leader who says that Muslims should control the Temple Mount, presumably on account of their sensitivity to other religions. And now here's a post (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023205.php) about a Somali Christian who was murdered at a wedding for converting away from Islam:
Due to the lack of comprehension of the service by any of the guests, Nur asked that the contents of the wedding be translated into the Somali vernacular. The Sheik performing the ceremony was aware of Nur's conversion to Christianity, however, and took offense to the request. He declared him to be guilty of apostasy and asked a guard to "silence" him. Nur was encouraged to leave the ceremony, and upon exiting, he was shot and killed by the armed guard.... Justification: sharia law commands the slaying of the apostate. In the past nine months, six Somali Christians have been martyred, including Nur. And now here's a roundup (http://www.fcnn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1812&Itemid=63) of 12 Arab and Muslim countries with laws severely punishing everything from apostasy to practicing Christianity to selling land to a Jew. But remember what the UN says: Israel - where the law of course allows you to be any religion you want - is a racist apartheid Jewish supremacist state.


Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.
Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.
Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.
Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.
Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.
Syria - The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.
Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.
Sudan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.
Pakistan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law
Qatar - Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.
Malaysia - Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.
The Maldives - In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11274985.html

[eternal_spirit]

What is Apostacy?

Technically, apostacy means to leave a religion. It means to once have been a member or believer in a faith and then to cease to believe or to convert to another faith or to question an important aspect of ones faith.

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.
The Reverend Mehdi Dibaj had converted from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) 45 years ago. On 21/12/93 he was sentenced to death on charges of apostasy. Released on appeal his body was found on 5 July 1994. The Reverend Haik Mehr, Superintendent of the Church of the Assemblies of God, who had campaigned against Dibaj's death sentence was found dead on 20/1/94. On 2 July 1994 the body of the Reverend Tatavous Michaelian, Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers in Iran was found with several gun shots to the head.
Egypt (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) We wish to raise what, at first glance, may appear to be an inconsequential or even humorous matter [at least in Australia where a good proportion of partners are unmarried]. A Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) court has ordered the divorce of a couple who wish to stay together. Islamists (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) have claimed that Professor Nasser Hamed Abu Zaid is guilty of heresy in writing that "Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)'s teachings should evolve with changes in society." However, a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) cannot be married to a heretic, a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He and his wife (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html), Ibtihal, also an academic have appealed against the ruling and can remain together for the time being. However if the prosecution stands, they could lose their jobs or even be killed .by fanatics as "adulterers ("living in sin") or as apostates ("deserters of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") [From "Some Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) History]
While there are, as yet, no laws against apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the missionary or the convert may be convicted on other charges, for example "threatening social peace (http://www.peacefaq.com/peace.html) and intercommunal relations". There is, however, a Supreme Court ruling that a Moslem (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who apostacises is legally dead. He loses all rights and powers. He cannot withdraw funds from his accounts. Any person who kills him does not commit murder from a legal point of view because he is already legally dead. The "dead" person cannot marry or inherit. Nor is it possible for an apostate to have his identity card changed to "Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)". More than one hundred and fifty Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who have adopted Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) have been detained in maximum-security (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) prisons. They have been accused of threatening national unity. One example from a Copt (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)ic press release, concerned the case of Dr. Abdul-Rahman who has been held in Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) without trial for two years for breaking with Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He is in solitary confinement but his will has not been broken. He is undoubtedly being used as a warning to anyone else contemplating apostasy




Sudan Bit by bit the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists, the Ikhwan, were able to consolidate their power in Khartoum. In September 1983 a version of Shariah, the "September Law" was introduced. Many floggings, amputations and stonings were carried out. Incorporated in the law was ijtihad or "free interpretation". If the qazi was unable to find a relevant (http://www.peacefaq.com/palestine.html) law to convict a defendant he could search the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and Hadith (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) at his discretion. For example Mahmoud Taha, the 76 year old leader of the Republican Brothers was hanged in January 1985 for apostasy, although it was not a crime at that time.
A number of southerners living in the north had changed their names to Arabic (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) ones to improve their business prospects. They discovered that they had done a dangerous thing; now they were expected to be practising Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and could not use their original names without being subject to the death penalty for apostasy. Similarly at risk were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) families who adopted Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) or an Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) name so that they could qualify for relief supplies during a famine. Also trapped were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) men who had "embraced" Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) so that they could marry Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) or to be able to obtain easy divorces.
15/7/98 Mekki Kuku is held in a Khartoum jail awaiting trial on a charge of apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html). Sudan has the death penalty for "deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)."
Mauritania "Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) guilty of the crime of apostasy, whether by word or action, will be invited to repent over a period of three days. If he does not repent within this time limit, he is to be condemned to death as an apostate and his property will be confiscated by the Treasury
Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who refuses to pray will be invited to fulfill the obligation of prayer in the prescribed time limit. .. If he persists in his refusal he will be punished by the death penalty."
India (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) The Muhtasib saw to it that the Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) did not omit the five daily prayers and the fasts of Ramadan. State musicians and singers were pensioned off. The death penalty for apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) was enforced.
Rushdie claimed (1985) to be a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and so is not bound by Shariah blasphemy (http://www.peacefaq.com/blasphemy.html) laws. If he was born of Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parents then the Shariah does not allow him to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) even in childhood. The penalty under Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) law for apostasy is death. Did you know that Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) religious law to rate as equal to existing British law? A British Pakistani (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) father murdered his daughter (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) for converting to a Jehovah's Witness. He would, of course, have been acquitted, under Shariah which the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists are trying to bring into England. leaders in Britain want
Chechnya Theologians from Chechnya and Dagestan ordered Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to carry out the death sentence against Gov. Aman Tuleyev "at the first possible opportunity". He has been accused of being baptized as an Orthodox Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) on June 25.
The death penalty for apostasy ("deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") is not Qur'anic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but it is Shariah (Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Law) as Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) executed a number of apostates.
Tuleyev denies the report that he had been baptized and says he is not religious. Thus he is still technically an apostate as, being of Kazakh origin, he is "a member of a predominantly Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ethnic (http://www.peacefaq.com/race.html) group" as the theologians say.
Libya Indeed, the only Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) author to have cast doubts on male circumcision has had legal action brought against him and might be sentenced to death for apostasy. I am speaking of (retired) Judge Mustafa Kamal Al-Mahdawi, a personal friend of mine, who is today under a ferocious attack lead by Libyan religious circles in the mosques as well in the press. The preacher of the Mosque of the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html), in Medina, Saudi Arabia (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html), published in July 1992 a pamphlet handed out free of charge in Libya. In this pamphlet, he asks the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Arab (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) League and the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Conference to set up a collective fatwa (http://www.peacefaq.com/jihad.html) of all Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) scholars against this judge and to execute him as an apostate if he does not retract. As for his book, the preacher asks that it be removed from the shelves, burned and forbidden to any reader. He blames the judge for having, among other things, denied that male circumcision is compulsory when there is unanimity in favour of it and when Mohammed (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) was Himself circumcised 54.


Why is Apostacy such a terrible crime in Islam?



Apostasy (Irtidad) in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ?If a person is raised in a society which protects (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) his soul from the impurities of kufr and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in God, Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and the Day of Judgement?
Once a person enters into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) totally and completely. "O You who believe! Enter into submission, kaffatan!" (2:208) he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger. No believing man and no believing woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) has a choice in their own affairs when Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)
Now even the question of apostasy, irtidad or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), becomes a shar'i/religious issue - even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). And Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.After coming into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), desert your own fitra!
On the issue of openly rejecting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) cannot just stand aside and see one of its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)-Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)" to the status of those "who have hearts but do not understand, ears but do not hear, and eyes but do not see."
Apostasy is Equal to Treason Why does Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidad in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is equal to treason. ?In Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) order of sacredness, Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) then the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and then the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Just as upholding and protecting (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), has also negative influence on the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) society, it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidad. It must be emphasized that irtidad which we are dicussing here involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply. The punishment prescibed by the shari'a for apostasy is death.
Even the terms used by the shari'a for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli. (1) Murtad Fitri means a person born of a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parent and then he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Fitri means nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) or natural. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostacized from his nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html), the nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) of believing in God. (2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then later on he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Milli is from millat which means a community. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person that the person has apostacized from his community.
In the first case, the apostasy is like treason against God, whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like treason against the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) community. Probably, that is why there is also a difference in dealing with these two kinds of murtad.
A former kafir who becomes a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.
But one who is born as a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but he still has to go through the punishment prescibed for his treason in this world.
This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.
(Excerpts from "Left Shoe News (http://www.hraic.org.uk/)")

http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html

[picha]

What is Apostacy?

Technically, apostacy means to leave a religion. It means to once have been a member or believer in a faith and then to cease to believe or to convert to another faith or to question an important aspect of ones faith.

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.
The Reverend Mehdi Dibaj had converted from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) 45 years ago. On 21/12/93 he was sentenced to death on charges of apostasy. Released on appeal his body was found on 5 July 1994. The Reverend Haik Mehr, Superintendent of the Church of the Assemblies of God, who had campaigned against Dibaj's death sentence was found dead on 20/1/94. On 2 July 1994 the body of the Reverend Tatavous Michaelian, Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers in Iran was found with several gun shots to the head.
Egypt (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) We wish to raise what, at first glance, may appear to be an inconsequential or even humorous matter [at least in Australia where a good proportion of partners are unmarried]. A Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) court has ordered the divorce of a couple who wish to stay together. Islamists (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) have claimed that Professor Nasser Hamed Abu Zaid is guilty of heresy in writing that "Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)'s teachings should evolve with changes in society." However, a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) cannot be married to a heretic, a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He and his wife (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html), Ibtihal, also an academic have appealed against the ruling and can remain together for the time being. However if the prosecution stands, they could lose their jobs or even be killed .by fanatics as "adulterers ("living in sin") or as apostates ("deserters of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") [From "Some Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) History]
While there are, as yet, no laws against apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the missionary or the convert may be convicted on other charges, for example "threatening social peace (http://www.peacefaq.com/peace.html) and intercommunal relations". There is, however, a Supreme Court ruling that a Moslem (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who apostacises is legally dead. He loses all rights and powers. He cannot withdraw funds from his accounts. Any person who kills him does not commit murder from a legal point of view because he is already legally dead. The "dead" person cannot marry or inherit. Nor is it possible for an apostate to have his identity card changed to "Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)". More than one hundred and fifty Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who have adopted Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) have been detained in maximum-security (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) prisons. They have been accused of threatening national unity. One example from a Copt (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)ic press release, concerned the case of Dr. Abdul-Rahman who has been held in Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) without trial for two years for breaking with Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He is in solitary confinement but his will has not been broken. He is undoubtedly being used as a warning to anyone else contemplating apostasy




Sudan Bit by bit the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists, the Ikhwan, were able to consolidate their power in Khartoum. In September 1983 a version of Shariah, the "September Law" was introduced. Many floggings, amputations and stonings were carried out. Incorporated in the law was ijtihad or "free interpretation". If the qazi was unable to find a relevant (http://www.peacefaq.com/palestine.html) law to convict a defendant he could search the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and Hadith (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) at his discretion. For example Mahmoud Taha, the 76 year old leader of the Republican Brothers was hanged in January 1985 for apostasy, although it was not a crime at that time.
A number of southerners living in the north had changed their names to Arabic (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) ones to improve their business prospects. They discovered that they had done a dangerous thing; now they were expected to be practising Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and could not use their original names without being subject to the death penalty for apostasy. Similarly at risk were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) families who adopted Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) or an Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) name so that they could qualify for relief supplies during a famine. Also trapped were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) men who had "embraced" Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) so that they could marry Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) or to be able to obtain easy divorces.
15/7/98 Mekki Kuku is held in a Khartoum jail awaiting trial on a charge of apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html). Sudan has the death penalty for "deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)."
Mauritania "Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) guilty of the crime of apostasy, whether by word or action, will be invited to repent over a period of three days. If he does not repent within this time limit, he is to be condemned to death as an apostate and his property will be confiscated by the Treasury
Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who refuses to pray will be invited to fulfill the obligation of prayer in the prescribed time limit. .. If he persists in his refusal he will be punished by the death penalty."
India (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) The Muhtasib saw to it that the Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) did not omit the five daily prayers and the fasts of Ramadan. State musicians and singers were pensioned off. The death penalty for apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) was enforced.
Rushdie claimed (1985) to be a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and so is not bound by Shariah blasphemy (http://www.peacefaq.com/blasphemy.html) laws. If he was born of Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parents then the Shariah does not allow him to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) even in childhood. The penalty under Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) law for apostasy is death. Did you know that Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) religious law to rate as equal to existing British law? A British Pakistani (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) father murdered his daughter (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) for converting to a Jehovah's Witness. He would, of course, have been acquitted, under Shariah which the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists are trying to bring into England. leaders in Britain want
Chechnya Theologians from Chechnya and Dagestan ordered Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to carry out the death sentence against Gov. Aman Tuleyev "at the first possible opportunity". He has been accused of being baptized as an Orthodox Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) on June 25.
The death penalty for apostasy ("deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") is not Qur'anic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but it is Shariah (Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Law) as Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) executed a number of apostates.
Tuleyev denies the report that he had been baptized and says he is not religious. Thus he is still technically an apostate as, being of Kazakh origin, he is "a member of a predominantly Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ethnic (http://www.peacefaq.com/race.html) group" as the theologians say.
Libya Indeed, the only Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) author to have cast doubts on male circumcision has had legal action brought against him and might be sentenced to death for apostasy. I am speaking of (retired) Judge Mustafa Kamal Al-Mahdawi, a personal friend of mine, who is today under a ferocious attack lead by Libyan religious circles in the mosques as well in the press. The preacher of the Mosque of the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html), in Medina, Saudi Arabia (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html), published in July 1992 a pamphlet handed out free of charge in Libya. In this pamphlet, he asks the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Arab (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) League and the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Conference to set up a collective fatwa (http://www.peacefaq.com/jihad.html) of all Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) scholars against this judge and to execute him as an apostate if he does not retract. As for his book, the preacher asks that it be removed from the shelves, burned and forbidden to any reader. He blames the judge for having, among other things, denied that male circumcision is compulsory when there is unanimity in favour of it and when Mohammed (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) was Himself circumcised 54.


Why is Apostacy such a terrible crime in Islam?



Apostasy (Irtidad) in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ?If a person is raised in a society which protects (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) his soul from the impurities of kufr and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in God, Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and the Day of Judgement?
Once a person enters into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) totally and completely. "O You who believe! Enter into submission, kaffatan!" (2:208) he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger. No believing man and no believing woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) has a choice in their own affairs when Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)
Now even the question of apostasy, irtidad or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), becomes a shar'i/religious issue - even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). And Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.After coming into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), desert your own fitra!
On the issue of openly rejecting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) cannot just stand aside and see one of its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)-Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)" to the status of those "who have hearts but do not understand, ears but do not hear, and eyes but do not see."
Apostasy is Equal to Treason Why does Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidad in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is equal to treason. ?In Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) order of sacredness, Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) then the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and then the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Just as upholding and protecting (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), has also negative influence on the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) society, it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidad. It must be emphasized that irtidad which we are dicussing here involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply. The punishment prescibed by the shari'a for apostasy is death.
Even the terms used by the shari'a for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli. (1) Murtad Fitri means a person born of a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parent and then he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Fitri means nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) or natural. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostacized from his nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html), the nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) of believing in God. (2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then later on he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Milli is from millat which means a community. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person that the person has apostacized from his community.
In the first case, the apostasy is like treason against God, whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like treason against the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) community. Probably, that is why there is also a difference in dealing with these two kinds of murtad.
A former kafir who becomes a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.
But one who is born as a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but he still has to go through the punishment prescibed for his treason in this world.
This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.
(Excerpts from "Left Shoe News (http://www.hraic.org.uk/)")

http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html

I do find it really quite bizzare how the muslims on here think that we are the ones who are bigoted, when sharia law clearly says that the ultimate punishment for leaving islam is death.

[eternal_spirit]

I do find it really quite bizzare how the muslims on here think that we are the ones who are bigoted, when sharia law clearly says that the ultimate punishment for leaving islam is death.

And there's proof that these laws are put into action in reality, they are more than words on paper.

[eternal_spirit]

The Wars to spread Islam
On pages 66 and 67 Dr. Abu Zayd confesses clearly, "The thing which compelled Abu Bakr to invade Persia and the Byzantine Empire was not to seize their abundance, but rather to spread Islam". This claim is based on evidence that the generals of the Islamic armies used to call the countries to embrace Islam before they started fighting them. Khalid Ibn al-Walid sent a message to the princes of Persia saying: "After all, accept Islam and you will be safe, or pay the tribute; otherwise I will come to you with a people who desire death as you desire drinking wine."
Yes and no, Dr. Abu Zayd! Yes, we accept your confession that the war was to spread Islam. We agree that spreading Islam was an essential incentive for war. We are content with your unequivocal confession in regard to this matter. We have written these pages in order to denote these facts and nothing more—to prove that Islam was spread by sword and that the Islamic wars were offensive wars. Your confirmation and faithful narration of history in "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" have helped us to prove this fact. Thank you.
Yet, we disagree with you when you claim that material abundance was not another reason for these wars. We will not allow you to conceal this obvious fact because you yourself have unintentionally alluded to it when you listed the reasons for the invasion of Egypt—among them were "the abundance of Egypt and its yields". More than that, ponder what the Qur’an says: "Allah (God) promises you much booty that you will capture" [Qur’an 48:20].
Or let us listen to Muhammad’s explicit statement in which he (after exhorting his warriors to fight bravely) promised the plunder of the country. Did you forget, Dr. Abu Zayd, what Muhammad said? Let me remind you. Muhammad said, "You see, God will soon make you inherit their land, their treasures and make you sleep with their women" (Lit: make their women’s beds for you).
These plain, disgraceful words are recorded by Ibn Hisham on page 182 Vol. II, of his famous book, "Al Rod Al Anf", which all the researchers regard as a reliable reference. Thus, when Muslims invaded a certain land incited by the desire to possess the land, treasures, and women, they were actually fulfilling God’s promise as it was stated in the Qur’an and in Muhammad’s pledge.

"The Beginning and the End," by Ibn Kathir (vol. 7)
We would like to quote a few incidents from this book by Ibn Kathir who is one of the ancient Muslim scholars and chroniclers and a reliable source for all students of Islamic history. On page 2, we read the following, "At the inception of the year 13 of the Hajira, Abu Bakr was determined to draft soldiers to send them to Syria in compliance with the words of the Qur’an: Fight... those who were given the Scripture (Chapter 9:9); and also follow the example of the apostle of God who gathered the Muslims together to invade Syria before his death."
He also adds on page 9: "When Abu Bakr sent Khalid to Iraq, Abu Hurayra, who was one of Muhammad’s companions, he used to exhort Muslims to fight by telling them: ‘Hasten to the Houris’ (fair, black-eyed women)."
Those Houris are the nymphs of paradise who are particularly designated for the enjoyment of Muslims.
"‘The Blood of the Byzantine is more delicious’, Khalid said!"
On page 10, Ibn Khathir tells us that when the Byzantine leaders rejected Islam or paying tribute, Khalid told them, "We are people who drink blood. We were told that there is no blood that is more delicious than the blood of the Byzantines."
Such words well suit people like Khalid, Muhammad’s beloved friend and relative.
On page 13 we read the following, "Gregorius, one of the great princes of the Byzantines, said to Khalid: ‘What do you call us for?’ Khalid answered him: ‘That you testify that there is no God but the only God and that Muhammad is His messenger and apostle, and to acknowledge all that Muhammad received from God (namely pilgrimage, fasting of Ramadan, etc.).’ Gregorius said to him: ‘And if these are not accepted?’ Khalid responded, ‘Then pay the tribute.’ Gregorius said to him: ‘If we do not give the tribute?’ Khalid said: ‘Then war!"’
Ibn Kathir acknowledges (on page 21) that when the Muslims conquered Damascus, they seized St. John’s church and converted it into the largest mosque in Damascus today (The Umayyad Mosque). On page 55, we read also about the invasion of Jerusalem. On page 123, he states, "Umar Ibn al-Khattab wrote to Abdil-Rahman Ibn Rabi’a ordering him to invade the Turks (Turkey today)."

The Second Invasion of Africa
In page 165 Ibn Kathir records for us that: "The second invasion of Africa was accomplished because its people broke their pledge. That was in year 33 of the Hajira (The Moslem Calendar)."
Of course, the people of Africa broke the pledge because that pledge was imposed on them by force in lieu of death. Yet Muslims killed thousands of them. Ibn Kathir already mentioned in page 151 that, "’Uthman Ibn ’Affan ordered ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d to invade Africa. [He told him] ‘If you conquer it take 1/25 of its booty.’ ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d marched towards it at the head of an army of 20,000 soldiers. He conquered it and killed multitudes of people from among its inhabitants until the remnant were converted to Islam and became subject to the Arabs. ’Abdalla took his portion of the booty as ’Uthman told him, then he divided the rest."
How unfortunate were the African people! They were invaded by the Arabs who killed thousands of them, divided the booty, and forced the remnant to embrace Islam. When they broke the pact, the Muslims attacked them again. But are the black African people the only unfortunate people? Or are all the people of Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, all the Arab tribes, Spain, even the people of China and India, Cyprus and the Kurds, all the unfortunate peoples? All of these are unfortunate nations who became the victims of Islamic Law which detests human rights and persistently ignores their freedom.


The Invasion of Cyprus and the Kurds
Ibn Kathir tells us that in the year 28 of the Hajira, the conquest of Cyprus was accomplished after ’Abdulla Ibn al-Zubayr slaughtered a multitude of people—as usual. Ibn Khaldun also tells the story of the Kurds. In page 124 of Vol. II, he says, "Muslims met a number of Kurds. They called them to embrace Islam or pay the tribute. When they refused to do so they killed them and captured their women and children, then divided the booty."
As we see, Ibn Khaldun along with Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari and other chroniclers, ancient and contemporary such as Dr. Abu Zayd, recorded all the Islamic historical events in detail. Moreover, on every occasion Arab newspapers allude boastfully to these memorial episodes of Islamic history and shed light on these savage, wild offensive wars. For instance, we read in the prestigious Ahram newspaper which is published in Egypt, the following, "During the era of the Caliph ’Umar Ibn ’Abdul-’Aziz, Ibn Qutayba in the year 88H, he invaded some of the neighboring countries of Iran such as Bukhara, and Samarq and marched close to the Chinese border" (refer to the Ahram, Mary 26, 1986, p. 13).
In his book, "The Beginning and the End" (part 9), Ibn Kathir narrates in detail the history of this belligerent general, Ibn Qutayba. He records the story of his campaigns and refers to his biography.
We would like to conclude this chapter with a brief summary which Taqiy al-Din al-Nabahani presents in his book, "The Islamic State" (pp. 121 and 122). He summarizes the history of Islamic offensive wars against the neighboring peaceful countries by saying, "Muhammad had begun to send troops and initiate campaigns against the Syrian borders such as the campaign of Mu’ta and Tabuk. Then the rightly guided caliphs ruled after him and the conquest continued. (The Arabs) conquered Iraq, Persia, and Syria whose faith was Christianity and which were inhabited by the Syrians, Armenians, some Jews and some Byzantines. Then Egypt and North Africa were conquered. When the Umayyad took over after the rightly guided caliphs, they conquered the Sind, Khawarizm, and Samarqand. They annexed them to the lands of the Islamic state."
According to all Muslim chroniclers, it is well documented that Armenia and Morocco were conquered during the era of ’Abdul-Malik Ibn Marwan. When his son, al-Walid, assumed the throne, he invaded India and Andalusia.
Also, Dr. ’Afifi Abdul-Fattah, the Muslim scholar, encapsulates the whole principle in a few explicit, straightforward words, as he says (page 382 of his famous book "The Spirit of the Islamic Religion"), "Islam has acknowledged war in order to exalt the word of God. This is a fight for God’s cause."
He also adds in p. 390, "Before the Islamic state declares war against another state, it should give (the other state) the choice between Islam, tribute or war."
We need not say anything more than that. Maybe this is what Muslims mean when they say, "We believe in human freedom and man’s right to choose according to his own will! We present him with three options, and he has the right to choose as he wishes — either to become a Muslim and pay alms to the Caliph of the Muslims, or pay the tribute and submit to Islamic rule, or we kill him."
Let the reader ponder the Muslim contradiction that a man has the right to choose whatever he wants within the Islamic context of individual freedom.


Conclusion
These are the Islamic offensive wars, my dear reader. We have already surveyed the Qur’anic verses which were expounded by both the great ancient and the contemporary Muslim scholars. We also alluded to the sayings of Muhammad, his own deeds and his orders to his companions, relatives and successors. We witnessed the bloody events of Islamic history narrating for us what Muslims did after the death of Muhammad and how they carried out his orders and the commandments of the Qur’an—how they fought with the People of the Book, the Jew and the Christian, until they paid tribute with humiliation and defeat. We have witnessed how they plundered the lands, killed the unfortunate, and captured women and children for no reason.
Moreover, we have already discussed all the matters pertaining to the death penalty of an apostate who dares to relinquish the Islamic faith and to embrace another religion, or to become an atheist. We also referred to an abundance of evidences and interpretations of Muslim scholars along with the deeds and sayings of Muhammad in this respect. He himself gave orders to kill anyone who is an apostate from Islam such as Umm Mirwan as the Azhar and all the Chroniclers denoted, and all those apostates who fled to Mecca.
Regarding offensive wars or imposing the Islamic religion on people by war, Muhammad said: "I was commanded to fight people until they say there is no God but the only God, and Muhammad is the apostle of God, and they perform all the Islamic ordinances and rituals."
We also examined Muhammad’s attitude towards the apostate. He made it clear that the apostate must be sentenced to death. He said about those who relinquish Islam: "Whoever changes his faith...kill him!"
Muhammad indicated that is it unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three cases: Unbelief after belief, adultery after integrity (or being married) and killing a soul without any right. The first case refers to the death penalty of the apostate and the oppression of his freedom and right to embrace any religion other than Islam Those are the clear claims of the Islamic religion as well as of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, who always uttered at the beginning of every prayer or sermon, the following phrase, "In the name of Allah—the Compassionate, the Merciful!"
We talked about individual freedom and human rights! This is the prophet of freedom, mercy, tolerance and human dignity!
Has the veil been removed?
Is the deception over?
Judge for yourself.


http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabana/TruthAboutIslam3.htm

[eternal_spirit]

The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169). "… To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).
According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them. Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad) against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes. It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), (seems the only get out clause is to pay money to save your lives?) short of which war will be declared against them. [14]




http://www.islamundressed.com/

[dedicate]

Let's say, "Islam means "Peaceful Life'" -- That the Prophet Mohammed was advocating people living in Peace. Then does it depend on how one looks at the scripture? So if Koran say, "If someone refuses to allow me to live at Peace (the Islamic World View), then that person is infedel and must be fought and destroyed." If the other is living in Peace,, he is a follower of Mohammed.

Then what is the understanding of "fought and destroyed"? Have you ever been to an Al-Anon meeting? They teach the same "Peaceful Life" and "fight and destroy", but use a different language. There "fighting" is to not give energy and ability to the enemy, not working with the enemy, laying down the law and sticking to it. Their fight is not "fighting". Same words -- different view.

So, really it is not about what those stupid government do, or what the foolish people are saying. Islam is about people living at Peace. If it does not promote Peace then it is not Islam. That's how I see it.

[eternal_spirit]

Problem with Islamic Countries the religion is part of the Government laws, to try and leave Islam is seen as letting down the whole Islamic community.

[eternal_spirit]

What is our goal?
We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.



We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits.

Be liberated from the slavery of the imaginary Allah and the false Prophet Mohammed and leave Islam today.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

We left Islam after seeing that it didnt make sense in many ways and thus could not be a religion from God.(all words underlined are links)
Our testimonials can be found in the Apostates (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm) section, where you will find a list of apostates and links to their individual home pages.
The most popular testimonial is written by Ibn Warraq, an ex-muslim, who is the author of "Why I am not a Muslim" (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/islambookslist.htm#why_ibn). Other testimonials include that of Ali Sina (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm), an ex-Muslim from Iran. He is the creator of Faithfreedom.org (http://www.faithfreedom.org/). Some testimonials can be accessed on his site here (http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm). Parvin Darabi, author of "Rage against the Veil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573926825?vi=glance)", writes her reasons for leaving Islam here (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/parvin.htm). Some testimonials can be accessed in the ISIS site. (http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/testimonies.htm)
Click here, if you have left Islam and want to submit your testimony. (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forms/new_apostate.htm)

[dedicate]

Who-ever wrote "We are Apostate to Islam" -- sounds to me, they found another religion that teaches the same thing as The Islamist Fundamentalist they don't like anymore.. Or they have become atheist. Now they are about throwing the good out with the bad in Islam. What a shame.

We could also replace the word "Islam" with "Peaceful Life" and see how rediculous their view is. IE.. "Eradicate PEACEFUL LIVING so our people can be liberated". That's how I see it.

What does it matter if this guy or that guy you find on some web page to support your view has to say about it? We could find 15 people who would say that "Apostate to Islam"'s new found religion is really Religio-Fascism -- or that these people are disinformist, making it all up and causing trouble for us all. What is important is the truth and each person having the freedom to decide for himself what that is. These things are not so easy to find even in so-called "Free Democratic Nations", Scientific Circles and Western Schools, anymore.

So... all governments are pretty bad. When are people going to stand up together and tell them "We don't need you anymore!"

[eternal_spirit]

Reminder just a few examples from the ever growing lists.

Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.
Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.

[eternal_spirit]

http://theshepherdsvoice.org/islam/images/bookofdeath.jpg
All I want to do is to obey my holy book !
9:39 (http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.039), Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
http://theshepherdsvoice.org/islam/images/terrorist.jpg
If you disagree this dagger is for you! http://theshepherdsvoice.org/islam/pictures_of_islam.html

[eternal_spirit]

http://delhiwatch.wordpress.com/
warning disturbing pics

[eternal_spirit]

Pakistan-Bangladesh plan a Mughalistan to split India

http://www.bengalgenocide.com/images/mughalstan3.gif

Mughalistan (or Mughalstan) is the name of an independent homeland proposed for the Muslims of India. This Mughal-Muslim state in the Indian subcontinent will include all of North India and Eastern India, and will be formed by merging Pakistan and Bangladesh through a large corridor of land running across the Indo-Gangetic plain, the heartland of India. This Mughalistan corridor will comprise Muslim-majority areas of Northern India and eastern India that will be partitioned for the second time in history.

The comprehensive plan for a second partition of India was first developed by the Mughalstan Research Institute (MRI) of Jahangir Nagar University (Bangladesh) under the patronage of the two intelligence agencies, Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) and Bangladesh’s Director General of Forces Intelligence, DGFI. The “Mughalistan Reaserch Institute of Bangladesh” has released a map where a Muslim corridor named “Mughalistan” connects Pakistan and Bangladesh via India.
The Pakistani Punjabi-dominated ISI’s influence on MRI is evident even in the Punjabi-centric pronunciation of the word ‘Mughalstan’ (without the “i”), instead of the typical Urdu pronunciation (Mughalistan). Islamic Jihadis in India have been well-armed and well-funded by the neighbouring Islamic regimes, as part of Operation Topac (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=operation%20topac) – the late Pakistani President Zia-ul-Haq’s grandiose plot to balkanize India.

Not surprisingly, Osama Bin Laden has thrown his support behind the concept and creation of this Greater Pakistan to “liberate” the Muslims of India from the Hindus. The Mumbai underworld (led by Karachi-based don Dawood Ibrahim who executed the gruesome 1993 Mumbai bombings), Jamaat-e-Islami, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Jaish-e-Mohammad and Hizbul Mujahideen have declared their unified support for creating this undivided Islamic nation in the Indian subcontinent. The Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) and Indian Mujahideen are working in tandem with the aforementioned organizations to waged Jihad against the Hindus of India.

It is important to note that in its “holy war” against India, the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba has openly declared Hindus to be the "enemies of Islam" who should all be converted or killed. The Lashkar-e-Tayyaba group has repeatedly claimed through its journals and websites that its main aim is to destroy the Indian republic and to annihilate Hinduism. Jaish-e-Mohammed has vowed to "liberate" not just Kashmir, but also to hoist the Islamic flag atop the historic Red Fort after capturing New Delhi and the rest of India.

SIMI has championed the "liberation of India through Islam" and aim to restore the supremacy of Islam through the resurrection of the Khilafat (Islamic Caliphate), emphasis on the Muslim Ummah (Islamic) and the waging of Jihad on the Indian state, secularism, democracy and nationalism – the basic keystones of the Indian Constitution – as these concepts are antithetical to Islam. The Indian Mujahideen have sent several emails claiming responsibility for several bombings in Lucknow, Varanasi and Faizabad (in Uttar Pradesh), Bangalore, Jaipur, Ahmedabad and New Delhi in 2007 and 2008. The emails refer to notorious Islamic conquerors of India (Mohammed bin Qasim, Mohammad Ghauri and Mahmud Ghaznawi) as their role-models, refer to Hindu blood as “blood to be the cheapest of all mankind” and taunt Hindus that their “[Hindu] history is full of subjugation, humiliation, and insult [at the hands of Islamic conquerors]".

The Indian Mujahideen’s emails warn the Hindus to “Accept Islam and save yourselves” and or else face a horrible fate: – “Hindus! O disbelieving faithless Indians! Haven’t you still realized that the falsehood of your 33 crore dirty mud idols and the blasphemy of your deaf, dumb, mute and naked idols of ram, krishna and hanuman are not at all going to save your necks, Insha-Allah, from being slaughtered by our [Muslim] hands?”
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Background

Pakistan’s emergence in 1947 was as a “mutilated, truncated, moth-eaten Pakistan, in M.A. Jinnah’s own words, because the Muslim League’s original plan did not envisage the partition of Punjab and Bengal. Today, Mughalistan is Jinnah’s dream come true.

The Partition of India provided temporary respite to the Indians and merely postponed the inevitable outcome. By 1971, all across Sindh, Western Punjab, Gandhara (Kandahar) and Eastern Bengal, the native populations of the Indian Religionists (Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains) have been wiped out almost entirely by conversion, massacre and mass exodus. Extrapolating this scenario, we find ominous results. This Islamic beach-head, which squeezes India from both sides (Pakistan and Bangladesh), gradually links up with a Fifth Column within India and gains fresh territorial and demographic victories within the last two decades (Kashmir valley, several districts of West Bengal and Assam, Malappuram district in Kerala and the Hyderabad-Deccan region). The Islamic Anschluss creeps steadily and bloodily, until the Western beach-head (Pakistan) is linked up demographically with the Eastern beach-head (Bangladesh) through the formation of a Islam-dominated belt called “Mughalstan”, that will then run through Jammu, Mewat, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal and Assam.

Jammu & Kashmir

It is an open secret that wherever the Muslims are in a majority, the rights and freedom of the non-Muslims are severely curtailed. Take for example Kashmir. It’s the only state in India which is a Muslim majority and let us see what happened there. Hundreds of temples were razed, Hindus were forced to flee, their women were raped, children were killed and houses forcibly occupied. The entire Kashmiri Hindu population (known as Kashmiri Pandits) having been driven away, killed or converted between 1990 and 2000 in a silent, mass genocide. (http://www.kashmir-information.com/ConvertedKashmir/) The Muslims in Kashmir have been enjoying a special status under Constitution’s Article 370, hardly any central law is enforced there, the number of income-tax payers is among the lowest and unlike other poor states, J&K gets 90 per cent central financial assistance as grants and only 10 per cent as loans. Still there are complaints that a ‘Hindu central government discriminates’. The other minority, Buddhists mostly located in Ladakh, too, are harshly treated and discriminated against by the mainly Sunni Muslim governance in Srinagar. The Buddhist Association, Leh, has been submitting memorandums to the central government about how Buddhist youths are denied jobs and a fair chance to join the Kashmir Administrative service and professional colleges in spite of clearing the entrance exams. The number of Buddhist minorities is fast decreasing causing concern amongst their leaders. Even their dead are not allowed to be buried in Muslim-majority Kargil area and monasteries have been denied to be built. Leh district continues to see rampant conversions of Buddhist women to Islam.
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The Kashmir Valley today has a 98 per cent Muslim population. Poonch district, which is contiguous with Pakistan, has a Muslim majority. Jammu district has seen regular attacks on Hindu civilians and temples. The Hindu-population of the adjacent district of Doda is being squeezed out by Islamic violence. As a result, Doda is now a Muslim-majority district, where the population ratio between the Muslims and the Hindus in Doda district is now 55:45. Doda town has a 90 per cent Muslim population. Out of the seven subdivisions, Banihal, Kishtwar and Balesa are Muslim dominated areas. Bhaderwah, Thathri and Ramban have a Hindu majority. In Ladakh, Kargil district has a Muslim majority.


Northern India

In the backward Mewat region of Haryana (and Rajasthan), Muslims form 66% of the local population. In 2005, the Congress (I) state government in Haryana quietly created a Muslim-majority district called Mewat, by vivisecting Gurgaon district. This move strengthened the clout of Islamic groups in the region. After all, it was in Haryana’s Mewat region in 1992, that Muslim mobs in Nuh town had hacked Hindus, destroyed Hindu temples and brazenly slaughtered cows openly on streets after seizing them from Gau Shalas (cow shelters). Today, the mass conversion of Hindu villagers to Islam, purchasing tens of thousands of Hindu girls for use as sex-slaves, cow-slaughter and social boycott of Hindus is common in Muslim families in Mewat. The average Muslim birth rates of 12-15 children per household in Mewat is increasing even more by cases like the Mohammed Ishaq family where the patriarch has sired 23 kids from his wife, Bismillah.

The 2008 bomb blasts targeting Hindu temples and civilians in Jaipur underscore the rising tension in Rajasthan.

Muslim-majority cities like Old Delhi and Malerkotla (in Indian Punjab) provide not only shelter to Jihadi terrorists, but also geographic continuity to Muslim-dominated districts of western Uttar Pradesh (UP), especially Agra, Aligarh, Azamgarh, Meerut, Bijnor as well as Muzaffarnagar, Kanpur, Varanasi, Bareilly, Saharanpur and Moradabad. Muslim attacks on Hindu religious processions, religious riots and bomb blasts are common place in UP as was seen in Mau, Ayodhya, Lucknow and Kanpur. The UP state population of Muslims has risen to 18% today.

Next door, Bihar has a 17% Muslim population and religious tensions are simmering.


http://www.bengalgenocide.com/mughalistan.php

more here

[element]

Shocking stuff, ES.

I don't think those fundamentalists will ever change their ways.. I wonder where the future will bring us.
In the meantime they can build up their Christianity vs. Islam endtime war...

[eternal_spirit]

Rest of article. the text was so bad on the site I couldn't read it.

http://www.bengalgenocide.com/mughalistan.php

Along the Indo-Nepal border of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, around 1900 Islamic seminaries have come up on both sides of the Indo-Nepal border in recent times. "There has been an exponential increase of Madrassas on both sides of Indo-Nepal border in the recent past of which around 1100 are in India while the rest are in Nepal," revealed Director General of Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB) Tilak Kak. These large number of Madrassas, which serve as have come up in a disproportionate way and are not proportional to the Muslim population in the area. India’s Task Force on Border Management, in its report of October 2000, wrote about the ominous developments along the India-Nepal border: “On the Indo-Nepal border, Madrassas and mosques have sprung up on both sides in the Terai region, accompanied by four-fold increase in the population of the minority community in the region. There are 343 mosques, 300 Madrassas and 17 mosques-cum- Madrassas within 10 kilometres of the border on the Indian side. On the Nepal side, there are 282 mosques, 181 Madrassas and eight mosques-cum- Madrassas. These mosques and Madrassas receive huge funds from Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Managers of various Madrassas and Ulema maintain close links with the embassy officials of those countries located at Kathmandu. Financial assistance is also channelized through the Islamic Development Bank (Jeddah), Habib Bank of Pakistan and also through some Indian Muslims living in Gulf countries. Pakistan’s Habib Bank, after becoming a partner in Nepal’s Himalayan Bank, has expanded its network in the border areas including Biratnagar and Krishna Nagar. It is suspected that foreign currency is converted into Indian currency in Nepal and then brought to India clandestinely. Madrasas and mosques on the Indo-Nepal border are frequently visited by prominent Muslim leaders, Tablighi Jamaats (proselytizing groups) and pro-Pak Nepali leaders. Officials of Pak Embassy have come to notice visiting Terai area of Nepal to strengthen Islamic institutions and to disburse funds to them. Pro-Pak elements in Nepal also help in demographic subversion of the Terai belt.”


West Bengal and Assam: The Weakest Links in the ChainAccording to the 2001 census, the Muslim population is 28% of the total West Bengal population. In Assam, the Muslim population comprises atleast 31% of the total state population.


Arun Shourie wrote this in the Indian Express in 2004:


“Muslims in India accounted for 9.9 per cent (of India’s population) in 1951, 10.8 per cent in 1971 and 11.3 per cent in 1981, and presumably about 12.1 per cent in 1991. The present population ratio of Muslims is calculated to be 28 per cent in Assam and 25 per cent in West Bengal. In 1991 the Muslim population in the border districts of West Bengal accounted for 56 per cent in South and North Parganas, 48 per cent in Nadia, 52 per cent in Murshidabad, 54 per cent in Malda and about 60 per cent in Islampur sub-division of West Dinajpur. A study of the border belt of West Bengal yields some telling statistics: 20-40 per cent villages in the border districts are said to be predominantly Muslim. There are indications that the concentration of the minority community, including the Bangladesh immigrants, in the villages has resulted in the majority community moving to urban centres. Several towns in the border districts are now predominantly inhabited by the majority community but surrounded by villages mostly dominated by the minority community. Lin Piao’s theory of occupying the villages before overwhelming the cities comes to mind, though the context is different. However, the basic factor of security threat in both the cases is the same.


Figures have been given showing the concentration of Muslim population in the districts of West Bengal bordering Bangladesh starting from 24 Parganas and going up to Islampur of West Dinajpur district and their population being well over 50 per cent of the population. The Kishanganj district (of Bihar) which was part of Purnea district earlier, which is contiguous to the West Bengal area, also has a majority of Muslim population. The total population of the districts of South and North 24 Parganas, Murshidabad, Nadia, Malda and West Dinajpur adds up to 27,337,362. If we add the population of Kishanganj district of Bihar of 986,672, the total comes to 28,324,034. (All figures are based on the 1991 Census.) This mass of land with a population of nearly 2.8 crores has a Muslim majority. The total population of West Bengal in 1991 was 67.9 million and of these, 28.32 million are concentrated in the border districts, with about 16-17 million population of minority community being concentrated in this area. This crucial tract of land in West Bengal and Bihar, lying along the Ganges/Hughly and west Bangladesh with a population of over 28 million, with Muslims constituting a majority, should give cause for anxiety for any thinking Indian.’’
And what if, from these figures, I had advanced two warnings. First,
‘‘There is a distinct danger of another Muslim country, speaking predominantly Bengali, emerging in the eastern part of India in the future, at a time when India might find itself weakened politically and militarily.’’





And second that the danger is as grave even if that third Islamic State does not get carved out in the sub-continent into a full-fledged country? What if I had put that danger as follows?
‘‘Let us look at the map of Eastern India — starting from the North 24 Parganas district, proceeding through Nadia, Murshidabad, Malda and West Dinajpur before entering the narrow neck of land lying through Raiganj and Dalkola of Islampur sub-division before passing through the Kishanganj district of East Bihar to enter Siliguri. Proceed further and take a look at the north Bengal districts of Darjeeling, Jalpaiguri and Cooch Behar before entering Assam, and its districts of Dhubri, Goalpara, Bongaigaon, Kokrajhar and Barpeta. A more sensitive region in Asia is difficult to locate...’’


To quote Sandhya Jain’s article “India’s Cancer Wards” in “The Pioneer”:

‘Mr. R.K. Ohri, ex-IGP, Arunachal Pradesh, cautioned that an Islamic Caliphate is rising on India's flanks, from Bangladesh to West Asia, and that the shadow of the Mughalistan corridor is now visibly manifesting in various districts along the Indo-Nepal and Indo-Bangladesh border. The demand for a 'Muslim Banghboomi' has already been raised, warns ex-MP B.L. Sharma (Prem). Traveling in West Bengal to check out certain atrocities against Hindus some years ago, his convoy was attacked by Bangladeshis. When demographer J.K. Bajaj and his colleagues prepared a mathematical model of the demographic challenge facing India, they found it exactly matched the map prepared by Bangladesh's Mughalstan Research Institute. Experts feel the latter has been prepared by the ISI because the 'Mughalstan' spelling indicates a Punjabi mind!

Bangladesh's reputed human rights activist Salam Azad laments that Bangladesh is the best place in the world for the return of the Taliban. Madrasas, he said, are teaching that "Muslims are the best in the world; non-Muslims will be converted, beaten, killed, married, raped, because non-Muslim women are regarded as maal-i-ganimat (free war booty)… Minorities will be oppressed, indigenous people will be attacked, in my country there is oppression everywhere and this is being done by the so-called educated people of the madrasas."

West Bengal BJP leader Tathagatha Roy said the extent of atrocities against Hindus in Bangladesh can be seen from the fact that in several districts there was not a single woman between the ages of seven to seventy years who had not been raped in that country. He apologized for the indifference of the BJP Government which did not grant refugee status to Hindus fleeing oppression in Bangladesh. North Eastern Students Organisation chairman Samujjal Bhattacharya said all 49 tribal belts and blocks in Assam have been occupied by Bangladeshis. The shadows have spread to Arunachal, Nagaland, Manipur and Meghalaya

Today, Hindus residing within a 50-km radius of the border are feeling the heat. They are being harassed on Indian soil and forced to move as the infiltrators establish themselves along this corridor, thus de facto extending the Bangladesh border into India.’

The West Bengal administration, which had taken a serious view of the problem in the initial stages of the Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee government, now seems to have accepted it as a fait accompli. The chief minister had adopted some steps to contain the menace when the BJP strongman L.K.Advani was the union home minister from 1998-2004. But his initiative has slackened after the installation of the UPA government at the Centre since 2004.

In case the ramifications of the unfolding scenario are not yet clear to Indians, the bomb-blasts and religious riots are a roaring continuation of the 1400-year Jihad against India – an ongoing war that will culminate in the Islamisation of what’s left of Hindustan. Already the demographic battle is underway and the Mughalistan scenario looks feasible. The book “Religious Demography of India” published by A P Joshi, M.D. Srinivas and J K Bajaj of the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS), Chennai, reveals that in 2001, Muslims comprise over 30% of the total population in the Indian-subcontinent (comprising India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). The total Muslim population zoomed from 12.5% (1991) to 30.3% (2001), in just 10 years (from ex-IAS officer V.Sundaram’s article in “News Today”: Deathly Demographic warnings for India).



According to the 2001 census report, Indian population is 1,027,015,247.3. Of this, 1.5 crore people are Bangladeshi infiltrators who are living in India. The Intelligence Bureau has reportedly estimated, after an extensive survey, that the present number is about 16 million. The August 2000 report of the Task Force on Border Management placed the figure at 15 million, with 300,000 Bangladeshis entering India illegally every month. It is estimated that about 13 lakh Bangladeshis live in Delhi alone. It has been reported that one crore Bangladeshis are missing from Bangladesh [August 4, 1991, Morning Sun] and it implies that those people have infiltrated into India. These infiltrators mainly settle in the north-east India and in West Bengal. This is shown by the fact that there has been irregular increase in the Muslim population in these states and many of the districts have become Muslim majority. The proportion of Muslims in Assam had increased from 24.68 per cent in 1951 to 30.91 per cent in 2001.Whereas in the same time period the proportion of Muslims in India increased from 9.91 per cent to 13.42 per cent. In West Bengal, the Muslim population in west Dinajpur, Maldah, Birbhum and Murshidabad 36.75 per cent, 47.49 per cent, 33.06 per cent and 61.39 per cent respectively, according to 1991 census.

This has not only caused the burden on the Indian economy, but also threatens the identity of the indigenous people of the north-east of India. In Tripura, another north-eastern state of India, the local population has been turned into a minority community over a short period of time by the sheer numbers of cross-border migrants from Bangladesh. In 1947, 56 per cent of Tripura’s population consisted of tribal (or indigenous) population. Today this stands at a 25% of the total. In many districts these infiltrators are the one who decides the outcome of elections. Outcomes of the 32 per cent of Vidhan Sabha seats in Assam and 18 per cent of seats in West Bengal are decided by them. This is due to the fact that political parties are helping them to get ration cards and voters ID and hence using them to win elections.

According to the report, at present there are 80 lakh Bangladeshi infiltrators in Bengal, 55 lakh in Assom, 4 lakh in Tripura and 5 lakh in Bihar (Katihar, Purnia and Kishenganj districts) and Jharkhand(Sahebganj district). As far as West Bengal is concerned, the concentration of infiltrators is quite marked in the border districts like North and South Dinajpur, Cooch Behar, Nadia, Murshidabad, Malda and North and South 24 Parganas. The affected areas in Assom are Dhubri, Goalpara, Karimganj and Hailakandi, while a similar scenario is noticeable in Kailashar, Sabrum, Udaipur and Belonia areas in Tripura. Pakistan's ISI is believed to have a hand behind this large-scale infiltration which has been playing havoc with the economy of Bengal and Assam. Home ministry sources say Harkat-ul-Jehadi-Islami(HUJI), the dreaded militant outfit active in Bangladesh, has succeeded in sending a large number of militants along with the infiltrators to West Bengal.

The Home ministry had laid stress on an early completion of barbed-wire fencing along the borders with Bangladesh. Of the 2216 km-long border the fencing could be completed only along 1167 km till 2007. The continuous infiltration has brought about serious demographic changes to Bengal's border areas and made the border-map, drawn after the 1974 Indira-Mujib agreement, somewhat irrelevant. The Centre has consequently sought a detailed report from the state government on changes in the population pattern in 66 blocks of nine border districts.

DGFI & ISI Plan To Capture West Bengal and Assam Through Vote Machinery

To facilitate Mughalistan and the concomitant partition of India and Bengal, the DGFI-ISI have jointly planned to change the demography of West Bengal and Assam on a priority basis.
As many as 53 out of 294 Assembly constituencies in West Bengal have a high concentration of voters who happen to be illegal Muslim from Bangladesh. Similarly, the fate of 40 Assembly seats in Assam depends on the votes cast by illegal Bangladeshi Muslim infiltrators. All this has been revealed by a recent report of the union home ministry on infiltration from India's neighbour. The report has been prepared on the basis of facts and figures provided by the Task Force on Border Management and Assam's former governor S.K. Sinha.

As such the Bangladeshi Muslims can control the West Bengal Assembly, and dictate terms to the state government of West Bengal in all respects. The picture of plight of majority Hindu electorates worsened in the State, as Muslim electorates have a clear majority in three districts viz. Malda, Murshidabad & North Dinajpur and 63 (sixty three) blocks in West Bengal. Again, an analysis upon the projection into the 2001 Census hints at abnormal Muslim growth everywhere in West Bengal, where the Muslim population is 28% of the total state population.
There are at least 5 powerful Muslim ministers in the West Bengal state cabinet: Abdur Rezzak Mollah (Minister of Land & Land Reforms), Anisur Rahaman (Minister of Animal Resources Development), Mortaja Hossain (Minister of Agriculture, Marketing & Relief, Minster of State), Anarul Haque (Minister of State for Public Health, Engineering) and Abdus Sattar (Minister of State for Minority Development & Madrasa Education).

In West Bengal, there are 45 Muslim Members of the Legislative Assembly (MLAs) out of 294 seats. There are 5 Muslim Members of Parliament from West Bengal out of 42 seats: Mohammed Salim (Calcutta North East), Abu Ayes Mondal (Katwa), Abu Hasem Khan Choudhury (Malda), Abdul Mannan Hossain (Murshidabad) and Hannan Mollah (Uluberia), all of whom strength the control of Islam in various government institutions and the police hierarchy.
As the UPA Central Government and the CPI(M) State Government have paid no attention for the threat of Bangladeshi Muslim infiltrators in West Bengal, the Bangladeshi Muslims have captured land, money and unequalled power of voting throughout the border districts in Bengal in many places.

With the passive support of both the UPA Central Government and the CPI(M) State Government and with the active support of all the political parties in West Bengal (except for the BJP) for winning the Muslim votebank’s support, the DGFI & ISI has actively put down roots in the soil of West Bengal for their purposes. Not only are they successful in the ongoing demographic change of West Bengal by means of mobilizing the election machinery of Bengal, they have also opened their fronts everywhere in smuggling, trafficking, drug peddling, illegal cow smuggling, trans-border gang robbery and of course terrorism, with the active grassroots support to the Harakat ul-Jihad-I-Islami-Bangladesh (HUJI-B), Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Jaish-e-Mohammad.

Now in its most advantageous position, the DGFI & ISI’s joint collaboration is now promoting activities of Mughalistan in Kolkata, Howrah & other districts. The Dhaka-based Mughalistan Research Institute has identified various areas marked as “Mini Pakistan” in W.Bengal & Eastern India. This Mughalistan, as we know, comprises the entity of Greater Pakistan, right from Afghanistan to Myanmar including Bangladesh, whole of W. Bengal, Assam & many other portions of India. This Pan-Islamic movement gets petro-dollars from the Arab World and fake Indian Currency from Pakistan and Bangladesh for the maximum manifestation of their plans. The Muslim infiltration from Bangladesh gives oxygen to the Pan-Islamic movement in India. Now they have direct access into the West Bengal State Assembly and into the Ministry of Bengal within Writers Building, Kolkata. But sadly, West Bengal’s vote politics undermine the situation by turning a blind eye to this colossal tragedy, unabashedly providing voters’ ID cards to the Muslim infiltrators and setting a dangerous peril for Bengali Hindus and India.
The North-Eastern region is connected to rest of India by a small strip called “The Siliguri Corridor” or “Chicken’s Neck”. The Islamists have planned to isolate the North-East of India from the rest of India, in order to facilitate the creation of Mughalistan. This Operation is named as “Operation Pin code”. For this they have planned to infiltrate 3000 Jihadis into North Eastern region. According to the Task Force, there are 905 Mosques and 439 Madrasas along Indo-Bangladesh border on the Indian side.

Some excerpts from the report, "Demography survey on eastern border" by Bhavna Vij-Aurora in “The Telegraph” are startling. “There have been reports that more Madarsas and mosques are sprouting along the borders, which in itself is an indication of increased Muslim population in the area," disclosed an intelligence official. The last such study was done by the Intelligence Bureau and the home ministry in 1992, and their report kept a secret in view of the sensitive findings. It was ultimately leaked and the estimated number of illegal migrants from Bangladesh was anywhere between 1.5 crore and 2 crore. It's time for a fresh survey, according to sources. There have been renewed intelligence reports that militants are using madarsas and mosques as safe havens, and also for storing arms and ammunition. According to reports, the largest number of madarsas and mosques has come up in bordering areas with Nepal, lower Assam and Bengal. This complements another secret survey that has revealed that nearly 40 per cent villages in the border districts of Bengal are predominantly Muslim. There are reports that concentration of the minority community, including the Bangladeshi immigrants in the villages, has resulted in the majority community moving to urban areas. Along with madarsas and mosques, a large number of Muslim NGOs have sprung up in the area bordering Nepal. Most of these madarsas are used for anti-India activities by Pakistan-backed terrorists. The NGOs ostensibly work for the social and educational uplift of the Muslim community and receive substantial and completely unregulated funding from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Libya and other Islamic countries," an intelligence report said."

When India was partitioned in 1947 on religious grounds and Muslims got West Pakistan and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), they had a vulture´s eye on the entire north-east. Muslims were not satisfied with both the Pakistans. They wanted the whole of the north-east region (undivided Assam) integrated with East Pakistan. Manul Haq Chowdhury, Jinnah´s private secretary, who remained in Assam and later became a minister in Assam assembly, wrote to Jinnah in 1947: “Quaid-e-Azam, wait for the next thirty years, I shall present Assam to Pakistan on a platter.” Since then, a sinister game plan to ‘grow more Muslims in the north-east’ has been going on surreptitiously.

Today, out of the total 24 districts of Assam, six districts, namely, Nagaon, Goalpara, Dhubri, Karimganj, Barpeta and Hailakanndi have 60 per cent Muslim population while other six, namely, Bongaigaon, Kokrajhar, Kamrup, Nalbari, Darang and Cachar districts have above 40 per cent of them. Out of the 126 assembly seats, the election of 54 MLAs depends on the Muslim vote bank. There are 28 Muslim MLAs and four ministers, namely, (i) Rocky Bul Hussain (Nagaon), Minister of State for Home Affairs; (ii) Ismail Hussain (Dhubri), Minister for Flood; (iii) Dr Nazurul Islam (Doboka), Minister for Food and Civil Supply, and (iv) Misabul Hussain Laskar (Borkhola, Cachar), Minister for Cooperatives.

There are two Lok Sabha MPs in Assam, namely, Anwar Hussain from Dhubri and A.F. Gulam Osmani from Barpeta and one Rajya Sabha MP, Smt. Anwara Timur (Nagaon). The Muslim community of Assam has provided one former Muslim Chief Minister—Smt. Anwara Timur (Nagaon) and one former President of India—Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed (Lakhtokia, Guwahati). Earlier, in the Assam Gana Parishad (AGP) Ministry, headed by Prafulla Kumar Mahanta, there were two Muslim ministers, namely, Maidul Islam Bora from Kamalpur, Kamrup district and Sukur Ali from Barpeta. Several high-ranking officers including deputy commissioners are from this community. Obviously, the Muslim community, including the Indian Muslims and the Bangladeshi Muslims, have become a dominant group in Assam and it is they who decide who would be the Chief Minister of Assam and what would be the major policies of Assam pertaining to detection and deportation of illegal Muslim migrants and care of Muslim welfare.

Tarun Gogoi, the Congress(I) Chief Minister of Assam, is giving all protection to these Muslims due to political compulsions. The Assamese community has been overpowered by Muslims. These Bangladeshi Muslims are sneaking into upper Assam too, creating serious problems for the Assamese. The demography of Assam has drastically changed and the very existence of the indigenous people is threatened. The manifold growth in Muslim population has overburdened Assam and the Assamese people are feeling harassed and tortured. The livelihoods of the local people are getting snatched away by these illegal Muslim migrants. The Janjati (indigenous tribal) communities in Assam are not organized. Therefore, their land and forests are very often forcefully occupied by these Muslims. The Nelli massacre in 1983 was the worst clash between the local people and Bangladeshi Muslims in which several Lalung Janjati people were reportedly killed and many Lalung villages were burnt.


These Bangladeshis have illegally sneaked into Manipur, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Arunachal Pradesh and Tripura too. They are marrying the local girls of influential people and are thus getting protection from their in-laws’ families. After marriage with a Janjati girl, they convert her to Islam. They purchase land in the Janjati belts in the name of their Janjati wives by producing Janjati certificates in her name. Now, the new generation of Muslims, i.e. the Janjati Muslims, is growing. They give Muslim names to their children but the clan remains that of local wives, like Saidullah Ningrum, Azad Lingdoh (Khasi Muslims), Nizamuddin Semia, Akram Semia (Naga Muslims), Shahabuddin Chowdhury, Akbar Laskar (Assamese Muslims) and others. In Assam, Muslims are using Assamese surnames like Hazarika, Barbhuian, Bargohain, Bhuiyan, Bora, Gohain and others. There are Meitei Muslims too in Manipur.

In Nagaland, the Muslim menace is more serious. Dimapur has become the den of these Bangladeshi Muslims. They constitute the leading labour force in the agriculture sector owned by the Naga community. The majority of rickshaw-pullers, auto-drivers and other manual labourers is now of Bangladeshi Muslims. This has given rise to robbery, theft, illegal trafficking of narcotic drugs and liquor, smuggling of pornographic films and vulgar literature and an unprecedented rise in crime, flesh trade and prostitution. This influx has narrowed the jobs of lay workers too.

The Nagaland state capital, Kohima, has become the second biggest haven for the illegal migrant Muslims who occupy most of the shops in the main market, P.R. Hills and other localities. They marry Angami girls and become sons-in-law of the Naga people.

Similarly, all the district areas such as Mokokchung, Wokha, Zunheboto, Phek, Mon and Tuensang are infested with them. They are sneaking into the interiors of Nagaland. In places like Jalukie in Zeliang area, Naginimora, Tizit and other central places of Nagaland, the pain of the presence of migrant Muslims is felt by the local Naga populace. Some ten years before, the students´ bodies had agitated against these foreigner Muslims. But the agitation was silently withdrawn reportedly due to threats from Bangladesh that the Government of Bangladesh would demolish all the camps of Naga undergrounds established in the territory of that country if the Bangladeshi Muslims were harassed in Nagaland. On seeing this unprecedented growth of Muslim population in Nagaland, S.C. Jamir, the then Chief Minister, once stated, “Muslims are breeding like mosquitoes in Nagaland.”

As a result of such illegal migration of Bangladeshi Muslims and their nuptial ties with the local Naga girls, a new community called Semiya or Sumias has already emerged in the state. Their number is estimated to be several thousand. The concentration of the Semiyas is the highest in Dimapur and Kohima districts respectively. There are fears among many that the voters’ list might have been doctored to accommodate the Semiyas as well other immigrants. The result of such immigration is gradually being felt in the state.
According to a Dimapur-based newspaper, on any Muslim religious day at least half of the shops in Kohima and some 75 per cent in Dimapur remain closed. It is also a fact that control over business establishments is fast receding from the hands of the locals. A recent survey conducted by the state directorate of Agriculture showed that 71.73 per cent of the total business establishments are being controlled and run by non-locals. Out of the 23,777 numbers of shops in the state, the local people own only 6,722 shops. Since the illegal migrants provide cheap labour, they are aggravating the unemployment problem. Besides, they pose a threat to the internal security as well. Reliable sources indicate that they are also involved in various unwanted activities like drug peddling and flesh trade.
The Big Picture
The following map shows the concentration of Muslims and Hindus in the Indian subcontinent today. The highlighted areas show riot-prone regions of India where aggressive Muslim populations range from atleast 20% to 100% of the population.

http://www.bengalgenocide.com/images/image003.jpg



Lest one mistakenly thinks that Mughalistan is the culmination of the Islamisation of India and that somehow the rest of India will be spared its fate, it must be stressed that this second partition of India is only the beginning. In Hyderabad of Andhra Pradesh, northern districts of Karnataka and certain areas of Maharashtra, the growth of Muslims is very high. Likewise, in Kerala, the Muslims now constitute 25% of the state’s population. Malappuram district was carved out to create a Muslim majority district by the Communist government headed by E.M.S Namboothiripad. Today, the entire Malappuram district enforces the weekly holiday on Friday (not Sunday) for schools and businesses, while Hindus in neighbouring Kozhikode (Calicut) and Kannur are intimidated through high-profile massacres like in Marad. The planning and execution is well underway to ensure a continuing Anschluss where several Muslim majority pockets such as Moplahstan (in Kerala) and Osmanistan (in the Deccan) will gradually spread in size and link up with Mughalistan to form a Greater Mughalistan.
This Greater Mughalistan is of strategic significance as it will provide a contiguous, strategic corridor linking the Ummah into a pan-Islamic Caliphate. The ISI-DGFI-Indian Jihadi triumvirate has fondly nicknamed this pan-Islamic Caliphate as Islamistan (meaning "Land of Islam"), a synonym for `Islamic World' or `Dar-ul-Islam'. This geographical Islamic crescent will link the Islamic Middle-East to Islamic South-East Asia, with the new Islamic World stretching all the way from Morocco and Bosnia in the West to Malaysia and Indonesia in the East.



There are Muslims in India today who dream of “Mughalistan” and are working relentlessly towards a further partition of India by creating “Mughalistan” in the UP-Bihar-Bengal-Assam corridor. It remains the focus of mainstream groups like the Tablighi Jamaat (who have methodically radicalised the ordinary Muslims) as well as underground terror groups like the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) and the Indian Mujahideen, who have blown up several Indian cities killing thousands of people. Until Mughalstan is achieved, Indians will continue to see serial bomb-blasts, attacks on Hindu festivals and temples, killings of Hindu activists, conversions of Hindu women and socio-economically backward sections, and brazen cow-slaughter that will continue endlessly until the Hindu mind becomes too numb and shell-shocked to look at the bigger picture, or comprehend the future – that Mughalistan is inevitable (“Mughalstan Paindabad”).

Lessons of history have been quickly forgotten. Indians have become twisted “politically correct” escapists who prefer to turn a blind eye to reality. Now it is not about just Kashmir any more, it is all of India that Pakistan wants. And the creation of Mughalistan is not a question of “If”, but “When”. Unless we stand up and stop it.
All Indians, secularists and nationalists alike, must act quickly. We should ponder upon the future of India that we will bequeath to our children in the near future, if the plan of Mughalistan is allowed to proceed unhindered. Indians have to start taking responsibility for their future generations. We must do everything in our might, to ensure that the tide of Islamic expansionism is restricted and reversed, beginning right now.

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.bengalgenocide.com/images/mapmuslim.jpg

[eternal_spirit]

Shocking stuff, ES.

I don't think those fundamentalists will ever change their ways.. I wonder where the future will bring us.
In the meantime they can build up their Christianity vs. Islam endtime war...

Indeed. I've been thinking it was some kind of tribal religious war that started off in the middle east and spread across the planet.

[eternal_spirit]

http://islamic-world.net/countries/index.htm

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCiGeSbgDbc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidicke.com%2Fforum%2Fshow thread.php%3Ft%3D67952%26highlight%3Dobama%26page% 3D5&feature=player_embedded


2 min 40, with much info

[eternal_spirit]

The Wars to spread Islam
On pages 66 and 67 Dr. Abu Zayd confesses clearly, "The thing which compelled Abu Bakr to invade Persia and the Byzantine Empire was not to seize their abundance, but rather to spread Islam". This claim is based on evidence that the generals of the Islamic armies used to call the countries to embrace Islam before they started fighting them. Khalid Ibn al-Walid sent a message to the princes of Persia saying: "After all, accept Islam and you will be safe, or pay the tribute; otherwise I will come to you with a people who desire death as you desire drinking wine."
Yes and no, Dr. Abu Zayd! Yes, we accept your confession that the war was to spread Islam. We agree that spreading Islam was an essential incentive for war. We are content with your unequivocal confession in regard to this matter. We have written these pages in order to denote these facts and nothing more—to prove that Islam was spread by sword and that the Islamic wars were offensive wars. Your confirmation and faithful narration of history in "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" have helped us to prove this fact. Thank you.
Yet, we disagree with you when you claim that material abundance was not another reason for these wars. We will not allow you to conceal this obvious fact because you yourself have unintentionally alluded to it when you listed the reasons for the invasion of Egypt—among them were "the abundance of Egypt and its yields". More than that, ponder what the Qur’an says: "Allah (God) promises you much booty that you will capture" [Qur’an 48:20].
Or let us listen to Muhammad’s explicit statement in which he (after exhorting his warriors to fight bravely) promised the plunder of the country. Did you forget, Dr. Abu Zayd, what Muhammad said? Let me remind you. Muhammad said, "You see, God will soon make you inherit their land, their treasures and make you sleep with their women" (Lit: make their women’s beds for you).
These plain, disgraceful words are recorded by Ibn Hisham on page 182 Vol. II, of his famous book, "Al Rod Al Anf", which all the researchers regard as a reliable reference. Thus, when Muslims invaded a certain land incited by the desire to possess the land, treasures, and women, they were actually fulfilling God’s promise as it was stated in the Qur’an and in Muhammad’s pledge.

"The Beginning and the End," by Ibn Kathir (vol. 7)
We would like to quote a few incidents from this book by Ibn Kathir who is one of the ancient Muslim scholars and chroniclers and a reliable source for all students of Islamic history. On page 2, we read the following, "At the inception of the year 13 of the Hajira, Abu Bakr was determined to draft soldiers to send them to Syria in compliance with the words of the Qur’an: Fight... those who were given the Scripture (Chapter 9:9); and also follow the example of the apostle of God who gathered the Muslims together to invade Syria before his death."
He also adds on page 9: "When Abu Bakr sent Khalid to Iraq, Abu Hurayra, who was one of Muhammad’s companions, he used to exhort Muslims to fight by telling them: ‘Hasten to the Houris’ (fair, black-eyed women)."
Those Houris are the nymphs of paradise who are particularly designated for the enjoyment of Muslims.
"‘The Blood of the Byzantine is more delicious’, Khalid said!"
On page 10, Ibn Khathir tells us that when the Byzantine leaders rejected Islam or paying tribute, Khalid told them, "We are people who drink blood. We were told that there is no blood that is more delicious than the blood of the Byzantines."
Such words well suit people like Khalid, Muhammad’s beloved friend and relative.
On page 13 we read the following, "Gregorius, one of the great princes of the Byzantines, said to Khalid: ‘What do you call us for?’ Khalid answered him: ‘That you testify that there is no God but the only God and that Muhammad is His messenger and apostle, and to acknowledge all that Muhammad received from God (namely pilgrimage, fasting of Ramadan, etc.).’ Gregorius said to him: ‘And if these are not accepted?’ Khalid responded, ‘Then pay the tribute.’ Gregorius said to him: ‘If we do not give the tribute?’ Khalid said: ‘Then war!"’
Ibn Kathir acknowledges (on page 21) that when the Muslims conquered Damascus, they seized St. John’s church and converted it into the largest mosque in Damascus today (The Umayyad Mosque). On page 55, we read also about the invasion of Jerusalem. On page 123, he states, "Umar Ibn al-Khattab wrote to Abdil-Rahman Ibn Rabi’a ordering him to invade the Turks (Turkey today)."

The Second Invasion of Africa
In page 165 Ibn Kathir records for us that: "The second invasion of Africa was accomplished because its people broke their pledge. That was in year 33 of the Hajira (The Moslem Calendar)."
Of course, the people of Africa broke the pledge because that pledge was imposed on them by force in lieu of death. Yet Muslims killed thousands of them. Ibn Kathir already mentioned in page 151 that, "’Uthman Ibn ’Affan ordered ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d to invade Africa. [He told him] ‘If you conquer it take 1/25 of its booty.’ ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d marched towards it at the head of an army of 20,000 soldiers. He conquered it and killed multitudes of people from among its inhabitants until the remnant were converted to Islam and became subject to the Arabs. ’Abdalla took his portion of the booty as ’Uthman told him, then he divided the rest."
How unfortunate were the African people! They were invaded by the Arabs who killed thousands of them, divided the booty, and forced the remnant to embrace Islam. When they broke the pact, the Muslims attacked them again. But are the black African people the only unfortunate people? Or are all the people of Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, all the Arab tribes, Spain, even the people of China and India, Cyprus and the Kurds, all the unfortunate peoples? All of these are unfortunate nations who became the victims of Islamic Law which detests human rights and persistently ignores their freedom.


The Invasion of Cyprus and the Kurds
Ibn Kathir tells us that in the year 28 of the Hajira, the conquest of Cyprus was accomplished after ’Abdulla Ibn al-Zubayr slaughtered a multitude of people—as usual. Ibn Khaldun also tells the story of the Kurds. In page 124 of Vol. II, he says, "Muslims met a number of Kurds. They called them to embrace Islam or pay the tribute. When they refused to do so they killed them and captured their women and children, then divided the booty."
As we see, Ibn Khaldun along with Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari and other chroniclers, ancient and contemporary such as Dr. Abu Zayd, recorded all the Islamic historical events in detail. Moreover, on every occasion Arab newspapers allude boastfully to these memorial episodes of Islamic history and shed light on these savage, wild offensive wars. For instance, we read in the prestigious Ahram newspaper which is published in Egypt, the following, "During the era of the Caliph ’Umar Ibn ’Abdul-’Aziz, Ibn Qutayba in the year 88H, he invaded some of the neighboring countries of Iran such as Bukhara, and Samarq and marched close to the Chinese border" (refer to the Ahram, Mary 26, 1986, p. 13).
In his book, "The Beginning and the End" (part 9), Ibn Kathir narrates in detail the history of this belligerent general, Ibn Qutayba. He records the story of his campaigns and refers to his biography.
We would like to conclude this chapter with a brief summary which Taqiy al-Din al-Nabahani presents in his book, "The Islamic State" (pp. 121 and 122). He summarizes the history of Islamic offensive wars against the neighboring peaceful countries by saying, "Muhammad had begun to send troops and initiate campaigns against the Syrian borders such as the campaign of Mu’ta and Tabuk. Then the rightly guided caliphs ruled after him and the conquest continued. (The Arabs) conquered Iraq, Persia, and Syria whose faith was Christianity and which were inhabited by the Syrians, Armenians, some Jews and some Byzantines. Then Egypt and North Africa were conquered. When the Umayyad took over after the rightly guided caliphs, they conquered the Sind, Khawarizm, and Samarqand. They annexed them to the lands of the Islamic state."
According to all Muslim chroniclers, it is well documented that Armenia and Morocco were conquered during the era of ’Abdul-Malik Ibn Marwan. When his son, al-Walid, assumed the throne, he invaded India and Andalusia.
Also, Dr. ’Afifi Abdul-Fattah, the Muslim scholar, encapsulates the whole principle in a few explicit, straightforward words, as he says (page 382 of his famous book "The Spirit of the Islamic Religion"), "Islam has acknowledged war in order to exalt the word of God. This is a fight for God’s cause."
He also adds in p. 390, "Before the Islamic state declares war against another state, it should give (the other state) the choice between Islam, tribute or war."
We need not say anything more than that. Maybe this is what Muslims mean when they say, "We believe in human freedom and man’s right to choose according to his own will! We present him with three options, and he has the right to choose as he wishes — either to become a Muslim and pay alms to the Caliph of the Muslims, or pay the tribute and submit to Islamic rule, or we kill him."
Let the reader ponder the Muslim contradiction that a man has the right to choose whatever he wants within the Islamic context of individual freedom.


Conclusion
These are the Islamic offensive wars, my dear reader. We have already surveyed the Qur’anic verses which were expounded by both the great ancient and the contemporary Muslim scholars. We also alluded to the sayings of Muhammad, his own deeds and his orders to his companions, relatives and successors. We witnessed the bloody events of Islamic history narrating for us what Muslims did after the death of Muhammad and how they carried out his orders and the commandments of the Qur’an—how they fought with the People of the Book, the Jew and the Christian, until they paid tribute with humiliation and defeat. We have witnessed how they plundered the lands, killed the unfortunate, and captured women and children for no reason.
Moreover, we have already discussed all the matters pertaining to the death penalty of an apostate who dares to relinquish the Islamic faith and to embrace another religion, or to become an atheist. We also referred to an abundance of evidences and interpretations of Muslim scholars along with the deeds and sayings of Muhammad in this respect. He himself gave orders to kill anyone who is an apostate from Islam such as Umm Mirwan as the Azhar and all the Chroniclers denoted, and all those apostates who fled to Mecca.
Regarding offensive wars or imposing the Islamic religion on people by war, Muhammad said: "I was commanded to fight people until they say there is no God but the only God, and Muhammad is the apostle of God, and they perform all the Islamic ordinances and rituals."
We also examined Muhammad’s attitude towards the apostate. He made it clear that the apostate must be sentenced to death. He said about those who relinquish Islam: "Whoever changes his faith...kill him!"
Muhammad indicated that is it unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three cases: Unbelief after belief, adultery after integrity (or being married) and killing a soul without any right. The first case refers to the death penalty of the apostate and the oppression of his freedom and right to embrace any religion other than Islam Those are the clear claims of the Islamic religion as well as of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, who always uttered at the beginning of every prayer or sermon, the following phrase, "In the name of Allah—the Compassionate, the Merciful!"
We talked about individual freedom and human rights! This is the prophet of freedom, mercy, tolerance and human dignity!
Has the veil been removed?
Is the deception over?
Judge for yourself.


http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabana/TruthAboutIslam3.htm

[daniel_zak]

http://www.islam-watch.org/ is your source? I'm sorry you fail.

1. The Qur'aan doesn't state death for someone leaving Islam, infact it doesn't even mention the Apostates.

2. Hadeeths makes a clear distinction between one who apostates and one who apostates plus fights against you i.e joins enemy linesm and wages war against you (this would fall under what we call today as treason).

[eternal_spirit]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SZjmGz_W9hI/AAAAAAAAAVc/JORixEE5LdE/s400/6.gif
http://delhiwatch.wordpress.com/Amar
more here disturbing pics


Singh Solanki, Balwant Tandel, Natwar Rathod, Mukesh Rathod, Natu Halpati and Ramesh Nagji (all Hindu crew-members of the fishing vessel “Kuber”) were all brutally butchered.

The Islamic Jihadis gagged their mouths and hog-tied them (with their hands behind their backs). Then to full-throated cries to “Allahu-Akbar” (”Allah is Great”), the Muslims slit the Hindus’ throats one-by-one (in Islamic “Halal” style) and ritually beheaded them – while the other victims watched in terror, awaiting the same fate.

Two Indian Coast Guard officers were also beheaded in a separate attack by the same Muslims (who pretended to ask for their help due to engine trouble), then overpowered them and slit their throats


1. MASS KILLINGS
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SNwm01P8U6I/AAAAAAAAAIo/79cP-oo-ZmA/s400/1000.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SNwmtoTXfiI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/S2ZS_zs_QaQ/s400/666.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SZjd48PIsnI/AAAAAAAAAS8/Ib5B8tLcfnE/s400/mumbai-attacks.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SZjd48PIsnI/AAAAAAAAAS8/Ib5B8tLcfnE/s1600-h/mumbai-attacks.jpg)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SZjbS9Atx0I/AAAAAAAAAPk/QBUo1klwmdk/s400/1127080948_M_112708_Mumbai6.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SZjbS9Atx0I/AAAAAAAAAPk/QBUo1klwmdk/s1600-h/1127080948_M_112708_Mumbai6.jpg)
2. INCREASING POPULATION
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/ravneetw/My/1-4.jpg
(24 children of one muslim man)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SNxm95jUbpI/AAAAAAAAAJI/WPyckVCRj8M/s400/64mewat-conversion-aug2.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SNxm95jUbpI/AAAAAAAAAJI/WPyckVCRj8M/s1600-h/64mewat-conversion-aug2.jpg)
(Newly converted Hindus into islam)
3. VOTING (TO PRO MUSLIMS PARTIES)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SfXkDPtF2-I/AAAAAAAAAaI/Ajn768CIwBQ/s400/1.jpg


http://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.85/t.gif





http://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.85/t.gif

[eternal_spirit]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SbR-dJnmRgI/AAAAAAAAAXo/CX4aPnVMPnQ/s400/muslims-beating-hindu.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SbR-dJnmRgI/AAAAAAAAAXo/CX4aPnVMPnQ/s1600-h/muslims-beating-hindu.jpg)

A Hindu being beaten by Muslims in a mosque in Bangladesh. He was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayerswere over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Mr. Vimal Patak a Bangladeshi born Hindu was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim mullahs chanted “Kill the kafir! (non-muslim).” He died begging for his life

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SbR-Ek43v4I/AAAAAAAAAXA/Kb9Tf77h3CE/s400/kashmir-mosaic.jpg

A mosaic displaying the genocide of Hindus in jammu & Kashmir by Muslim militants

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=741401&postcount=11
some disturbing images

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidicke.com%2Fforum%2Fshow thread.php%3Fp%3D1046890&feature=player_embedded

[eternal_spirit]

What is our goal?
We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.



We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits.

Be liberated from the slavery of the imaginary Allah and the false Prophet Mohammed and leave Islam today.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

We left Islam after seeing that it didnt make sense in many ways and thus could not be a religion from God.(all words underlined are links)
Our testimonials can be found in the Apostates (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm) section, where you will find a list of apostates and links to their individual home pages.
The most popular testimonial is written by Ibn Warraq, an ex-muslim, who is the author of "Why I am not a Muslim" (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/islambookslist.htm#why_ibn). Other testimonials include that of Ali Sina (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm), an ex-Muslim from Iran. He is the creator of Faithfreedom.org (http://www.faithfreedom.org/). Some testimonials can be accessed on his site here (http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm). Parvin Darabi, author of "Rage against the Veil (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573926825?vi=glance)", writes her reasons for leaving Islam here (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/parvin.htm). Some testimonials can be accessed in the ISIS site. (http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/testimonies.htm)
Click here, if you have left Islam and want to submit your testimony. (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forms/new_apostate.htm)


Telling it like it is from the inside.

[eternal_spirit]

Muslim conquests (632–732), (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): فتح‎, Fatah, literally opening,) also referred to as the Islamic conquests, Jihad, or Arab conquests,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-0) began after the death of the Islamic prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam) Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). He established a new unified political polity in the Arabian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula) which under the subsequent Rashidun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun) (The Rightly Guided Caliphs) and Umayyad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate) Caliphates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate) saw a century of rapid expansion of Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) power well beyond the Arabian peninsula in the form of a vast Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) Empire with an area of influence that stretched from northwest India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), across Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia), the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East), North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa), southern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), and the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), to the Pyrenees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenees). Edward Gibbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Gibbon) writes in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_the_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_E mpire): "Under the last of the Ommiades, the Arabian empire extended two hundred days’ journey from east to west, from the confines of Tartary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartary) and India to the shores of the Atlantic Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean). And if we retrench the sleeve of the robe, as it is styled by their writers, the long and narrow province of march of a caravan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_%28travellers%29). We should vainly seek the indissoluble union and easy obedience that pervaded the government of Augustus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus) and the Antonines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonines); but the progress of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) diffused over this ample space a general resemblance of manners and opinions. The language and laws of the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) were studied with equal devotion at Samarcand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand) and Seville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville): the Moor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) and the Indian embraced as countrymen and brothers in the pilgrimage of Mecca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca); and the Arabian language] was adopted as the popular idiom in all the provinces to the westward of the Tigris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigris)."

The Muslim conquests brought about the collapse of the Sassanid Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire) and a great territorial loss for the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire). The reasons for the Muslim success are hard to reconstruct in hindsight, primarily because only fragmentary sources from the period have survived. Most historians agree that the Sassanid Persian and Byzantine empires were militarily and economically exhausted from decades of fighting one another (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman%E2%80%93Persian_Wars). Others suggest that many of the peoples living under the rule of these empires, for example Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) and Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) in Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire) and Jews and Monophysites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monophysitism) in Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_%28Roman_province%29), were dissatisfied and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces, largely because of religious conflict in both empires.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-1) In the case of Byzantine Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Egypt), Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine) and Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) these lands had only a few years before been reacquired from the Persians, and had not been ruled by the Byzantines for over 25 years. Fred Donner McGraw however, suggests that formation of a state in the peninsula and ideological (i.e religious) coherence and mobilization was a primary reason why the Muslim armies in space of hundred years were able to establish the largest pre-modern empire until that time, though his work has not been commonly accepted. The estimates for the size of the Muslim caliphate suggest it was over 5 million square miles, making it larger than all current states (except the Russian Federation).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-2)




1 History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#History)

1.1 Byzantine–Arab Wars: 634–750 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Byzantine.E2.80.93Arab_Wars:_634. E2.80.93750)
1.2 Conquest of Persia: 633–651 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Persia:_633.E2.80.936 51)
1.3 Conquest of Transoxiana: 662–709 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Transoxiana:_662.E2.8 0.93709)
1.4 Conquest of Sindh: 664–712 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Sindh:_664.E2.80.9371 2)
1.5 Conquest of Hispania: 711–718 and Septimania 719–720 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Hispania:_711.E2.80.9 3718_and_Septimania_719.E2.80.93720)
1.6 Conquest of the Caucasus: 711–750 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_the_Caucasus:_711.E2. 80.93750)
1.7 End of the Umayyad conquests: 718–750 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#End_of_the_Umayyad_conquests:_718 .E2.80.93750)
1.8 Conquest of Nubia: 700–1606 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Nubia:_700.E2.80.9316 06)
1.9 Incursions into Southern Italy: 831–902 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Incursions_into_Southern_Italy:_8 31.E2.80.93902)
1.10 Conquest of Anatolia: 1060–1360 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Anatolia:_1060.E2.80. 931360)
1.11 Byzantine-Ottoman Wars: 1299–1453 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Byzantine-Ottoman_Wars:_1299.E2.80.931453)
1.12 Further conquests: 1200–1800 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Further_conquests:_1200.E2.80.931 800)
1.13 Decline and collapse: 1800–1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Decline_and_collapse:_1800.E2.80. 931924)


2 Notes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Notes)
3 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#References)


History


The individual Muslim conquests, together with their beginning and ending dates, are as follows:

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=2)] Byzantine–Arab Wars: 634–750


Main article: Byzantine–Arab Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Arab_Wars)
Further information: Khalid ibn al-Walid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid) and 'Amr ibn al-'As (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Amr_ibn_al-%27As)
Wars were between the Byzantine Empire and at first the Rashidun and then the Umayyad caliphates and resulted in the conquest of the Bilad al-Sham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Syria) (Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant)), Misr (Aegyptus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Roman_Egypt)), Ifriqiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifriqiya) (Mediterranean North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Basin)) and Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia) (Byzantine Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Armenia) and Sassanid Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzpanate_Period)).
Under the Rashidun


The conquest of Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Syria), 637
The conquest of Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_conquest_of_Armenia), 639
The conquest of Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Egypt), 639
The conquest of North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_North_Africa), 652

Under the Umayyads


The conquest of North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_North_Africa), 665
The second Arab siege of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_%28717%E2%80%93718%29) 717–718
The conquest of Tbilisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Tbilisi), 736

Later conquests


The conquest of southern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy), 827

Frontier warfare continued in the form of cross border raids between the Ummayyads and the Byzantine Isaurian dynasty allied with the Khazars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) across Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia). Byzantine naval dominance and Greek fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire) resulted in a major victory at the Battle of Akroinon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Akroinon) (739); one of a series of military failures of the Caliph Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisham_ibn_Abd_al-Malik) across the empire that checked the expansion of the Umayyads and hastened their fall.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Muslim_Conquest.PNG/300px-Muslim_Conquest.PNG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muslim_Conquest.PNG) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muslim_Conquest.PNG)
Conquests of Muhammad and the Rashidun



[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=3)] Conquest of Persia: 633–651

Main article: Islamic conquest of Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Persia)
Further information: Khalid ibn al-Walid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid)
In the reign of Yazdgerd III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdgerd_III), the last Sassanid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire) ruler of the Persian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire), a Muslim army secured the conquest of Persia after their decisive defeats of the Sassanid army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_army) at the Battle of Walaja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Walaja) in 633 and Battle of al-Qādisiyyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_al-Q%C4%81disiyyah) in 636, but the final military victory didn't come until 642 when the Persian army was destroyed at the Battle of Nahāvand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nah%C4%81vand). Then, in 651, Yazdgerd III was murdered at Merv (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merv), ending the dynasty. His son Pirooz II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirooz_II) escaped through the Pamir Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_Mountains) in what is now Tajikistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajikistan) and arrived in Tang China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=4)] Conquest of Transoxiana: 662–709

Main articles: Islamic conquest of Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Afghanistan) and Battle of Talas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talas)
Further information: Qutaibah bin Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutaibah_bin_Muslim) and History of Arabs in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Arabs_in_Afghanistan)
Following the First Fitna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fitna), the Umayyads resumed the push to capture Sassanid lands and began to move towards the conquest of lands east and north of the plateau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plateau) towards Greater Khorasan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Khorasan) and the Silk Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road) along Transoxiana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transoxiana). Following the collapse of the Sassanids, these regions had fallen under the sway of local Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples) and Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples) tribes as well as the Tang Dynasty. By 709, however, all of Greater Khorasan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Khorasan) and Sogdiana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdiana) had come under Arab control. By 751, the Arabs had extended their influence further east to the borders of China, leading to the Battle of Talas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talas).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=5)] Conquest of Sindh: 664–712

Main article: Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_in_the_Indian_subcontinent)
Further information: Muhammad bin Qasim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim)
During the period of early Rajput (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput) supremacy in north India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_India), during the 7th century, the first Muslim invasions were carried out simultaneously with the expansion towards Central Asia. In 664, forces led by Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Muhallab_ibn_Abi_Suffrah) began launching raids from Persia, striking Multan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multan) in the southern Punjab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_region) in what is today Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan).
In 711, an expedition led by Muhammad bin Qasim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim) defeated Raja Dahir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahir_%28Raja%29) at what is now Hyderabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyderabad,_Sindh) in Sindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh) and established Umayyad rule by 712.
The west of Indian sub-continent was then divided into many states. And their relation between each other were very weak. Al-Ḥajjāj ibn Yūsuf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-%E1%B8%A4ajj%C4%81j_ibn_Y%C5%ABsuf) the ruler of Iraq knew this and waited for the best moment to strike.
During this period some rebels came to Sindh from Arab committing various crimes. But King Dahir gave them shelter in his kingdom. By this Hajjaj got extremly mad.
As Muslim Empire and Dahir's kingdom were contiguous to each other, frequent border clashes took place. As a result relation between the two got worse.
The King of Ceylon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceylon), the present Srilanka sent many 8 ships full of gifts for the Calipf Al-Walid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Walid) and the ruler of present Iraq, Hajjaj. But the pirates plundered the ships at the Debal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debal) of Sindh, which is now known as "Karachi". Hajjaj demanded compensation from Dahir. But Dahir denied to take responsibility of the crimes committed by the pirates.
For all these reasons. Hajjaj sent soldiers against Dahir. But first two expeditions failed! Then in 712 A.D. Hajjaj sent the third expedition. The commander-in-chief of this expedition was Muhammad bin Qasim Al-Thaqafi (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_bin_Qasim_Al-Thaqafi&action=edit&redlink=1) the nephew and son-in-law of Hajjaj.
Qasim subdued the whole of what is modern Pakistan, from Karachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachi) to Kashmir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir), reaching the borders of Kashmir within three years. After his recall, however, the region devolved into the semi-independent Arab ruled states of Mansura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansura_%28Brahmanabad%29) and Multan.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=6)] Conquest of Hispania: 711–718 and Septimania 719–720

Main article: Umayyad conquest of Hispania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania)
Further information: Tariq ibn Ziyad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad)
The conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Septimania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania) commenced when the Moors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors) (mostly Berbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) with some Arabs) invaded Visigothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) Christian Iberia (modern Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal), Gibraltar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar), Andorra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra), Septimania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania)) in the year 711.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-3) Under their Berber leader, Tariq ibn Ziyad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad), they landed at Gibraltar on April 30 and worked their way northward.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-4) Tariq's forces were joined the next year by those of his superior, Musa bin Nusair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_bin_Nusair). During the eight-year campaign most of the Iberian Peninsula was brought under Islamic rule—save for small areas in the northwest (Asturias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias)) and largely Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people) regions in the Pyrenees. This territory, under the Arab name Al-Andalus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus), became first an Emirate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate) and then an independent Umayyad Caliphate, the Caliphate of Córdoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_C%C3%B3rdoba), after the overthrowing of the dynasty in Damascus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus) by the Abbasids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate). When the Caliphate dissolved in 1031, the territory split into small Taifas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa), and gradually the Christian kingdoms started the Reconquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista) up to 1492, when Granada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada), the last kingdom of Al-Ándalus fell under the Catholic Monarchs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Monarchs).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=7)] Conquest of the Caucasus: 711–750

Main article: Khazar–Arab Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar%E2%80%93Arab_Wars)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=8)] End of the Umayyad conquests: 718–750

The success of the Bulgarian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire) and the Byzantine Empire in dispelling the second Umayyad siege of Constantinople halted further conquests of Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor) in 718. After their success in overrunning the Iberian peninsula, the Umayyads had moved northeast over the Pyrenees where they were defeated 721 at the Battle of Toulouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Toulouse_%28721%29) and then at the Battle of Covadonga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Covadonga). A second invasion was stopped by the Frank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks) Charles Martel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel) at the Battle of Tours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours) in 732 and then at the Battle of the River Berre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Berre) checking the Umayyad expansion at Narbonne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbonne). In 738, the Umayyad armies were defeated by the Indian Rajputs at the Battle of Rajasthan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rajasthan), checking the eastern expansion of the empire. In 740, the Berber Revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt) weakened Umayyad ability to launch any further expeditions and, after the Abbasid overthrow in 756 at Cordoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain), a separate Arab state was established on the Iberian peninsula, even as the Muhallabids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhallabids) were unable to keep Ifriqiya from political fragmentation.
In the east, internal revolts and local dissent led to the downfall of the Umayyad dynasty. This military expansion era extended the military boundaries of the Islamic world in the pursuit of wealth garnered from booty. The Khariji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites) and Zaidi revolts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayd_ibn_Ali) coupled with mawali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawali) dissatisfaction as second class citizens in respect to Arabs created the support base necessary for the Abbasid revolt in 750. The Abbasids were soon involved in numerous Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam) revolts and the breakaway of Ifriqiya from the Caliph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph)'s authority completely in the case of the Idrisids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idrisid_dynasty) and Rustamids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustamid) and nominally under the Aghlabids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghlabid), under whom Muslim rule was extended temporarily to Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) and mainland Italy before being overrun by the competing Fatimids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate). The Abbasid caliph, even as he competed for authority with the Fatimid Caliph, also had to devolve greater power to the increasing power of regional rulers. This began the process of fragmentation that soon gave rise to numerous local ruling dynasties who would contend for territory with each other and eventually establish kingdoms and empires and push the boundaries of the Muslim world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world) on their own authority, giving rise to Mamluk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk) and Turkic dynasties such as the Seljuks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuq_dynasty), Khwarezmshahs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khw%C4%81razm-Sh%C4%81h_dynasty) and the Ayyubids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty) who fought the crusades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades), as well as the Ghaznavids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaznavids) and Ghorids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghorid) who conquered India.
In Iberia, Charles Martel's son, Pippin the Younger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_the_Short), retook Narbonne, and his grandson Charlemagne actually established the Marca Hispanica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marca_Hispanica) across the Pyrenees in part of what today is Catalonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia), reconquering Girona in 785 and Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona) in 801. This formed a permanent buffer zone against Muslims, with Frankish strongholds in Iberia (the Carolingian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire) Spanish Marches), which became the basis, along with the King of Asturias for the Reconquista, spanning 700 year which after the fall of the Caliphate of Córdoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_C%C3%B3rdoba) contested with both the successor taifas as well as the African-based Muslim empires, such as the Almoravids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty) and Almohads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad_dynasty), until all of the Muslims were expelled from the Iberian peninsula.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=9)] Conquest of Nubia: 700–1606

After many attempts at military conquest of Nubia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia) failed (see First Battle of Dongola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Dongola)), the Arab commander in Egypt concluded the first in a series of regularly renewed treaties known as AlBaqt (pactum) with the Nubians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubians) that governed relations between the two peoples for more than six hundred years.



Islam progressed peacefully in the area through intermarriage and contacts with Arab merchants and settlers over a long period of time after the failure of military conquest. In 1315, a Muslim prince of Nubian royal blood ascended the throne of Dongola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongola) as king.
During the 15th century, the Funj (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funj_people), an indigenous people appeared in southern Nubia and established the Kingdom of Sinnar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennar_%28sultanate%29), also known as As-Saltana az-Zarqa (the Blue Sultanate). The kingdom officially converted to Islam in 1523 and by 1606 it had supplanted the old Christian kingdom of Alwa (Alodia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alodia)) and controlled an area spreading over the northern and central regions of modern day Sudan thereby becoming the first Islamic Kingdom in Sudan. Their kingdom lasted until 1821.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=10)] Incursions into Southern Italy: 831–902

Main article: History of Islam in southern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy)
The Aghlabids rulers of Ifriqiya under the Abbasids, using present day Tunisia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia) as their launching pad conquered Palermo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palermo) in 831, Messina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messina) in 842, Enna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enna) in 859, Syracuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse,_Sicily) in 878, Catania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catania) in 900 and the final Byzantine stronghold, the fortress of Taormina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taormina), in 902 setting up emirates in the Italian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Peninsula). In 846 the Aghlabids sacked Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%28846%29).
Berber and Tulunid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulunids) rebellions quickly led to the rise of the Fatimids taking over Aghlabid territory and Calabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria) was soon lost to the apanate of Italy. The Kalbid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalbids) dynasty administered the Emirate of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Sicily) for the Fatimids by proxy from 948. By 1053 the dynasty died out in a dynastic struggle and interference from the Berber Zirids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirid) of Ifriqiya led to its break down into small fiefdoms which were captured by the Italo-Normans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Norman) by 1091.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=11)] Conquest of Anatolia: 1060–1360

Main article: Byzantine–Seljuk Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Seljuk_Wars)
The Abbasid period saw initial expansion and the capture of Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) (840). The Abbasids soon shifted their attention towards the east. During the later fragmentation of the Abbasid rule and the rise of their Shiite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam) rivals the Fatimids and Buyids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyid_dynasty), a resurgent Byzantium recaptured Crete and Cilicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilicia) in 961, Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) in 965, and pushed into the Levant by 975. The Byzantines successfully contested with the Fatimids for influence in the region until the arrival of the Seljuq Turks who first allied with the Abbasids and then ruled as the de facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto) rulers.
In 1068 Alp Arslan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp_Arslan) and allied Turkmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmen_people) tribes recaptured many Abbasid lands and even invaded Byzantine regions, pushing further into eastern and central Anatolia after a major victory at the Battle of Manzikert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert) in 1071. The disintegration of the Seljuk dynasty, the first unified Turkic dynasty, resulted in the rise of subsequent, smaller, rival Turkic kingdoms such as the Danishmends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danishmends), the Sultanate of Rûm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_R%C3%BBm), and various Atabegs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atabeg) who contested the control of the region during the [[Crusade]s] and incrementally expanded across Anatolia until the rise of the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_the_Ottoman_Empire).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=12)] Byzantine-Ottoman Wars: 1299–1453

Main article: Byzantine–Ottoman Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Ottoman_Wars)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=13)] Further conquests: 1200–1800

Further information: Ottoman wars in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe)
In Sub-Saharan Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa), the Sahelian kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahelian_kingdom) expanded Muslim territories far from the coast. Muslim traders spread Islam to kingdoms across Zanj (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj) along the east African (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Africa) coast, and to Southeast Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia) and the sultanates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan) of Southeast Asia such as those of Mataram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataram_Sultanate) and Sulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulu_Sultanate).
After the Mongol Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire) destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate, following the Battle of Baghdad (1258) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_%281258%29), they conquered Muslim lands but soon converted to Islam, beginning an era of Turkic and Mongol expansions of Muslim rule into Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) under the Golden Horde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde); across Central Asia under Timur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur), founder of the Timurid dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty); and later into the Indian subcontinent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_subcontinent) under his descendant Babur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur), founder of the Mughal Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire). Meanwhile in the 17th century, Barbary corsairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs) were conducting raids into Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and Northern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe), as far as the island of Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) and Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-6) Eastern Europe suffered a series of Tatar invasions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar_invasions), the goal of which was to loot, pillage and capture slaves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery) into jasyr.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#cite_note-7)
The modern era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_era) saw the rise of three powerful Muslim empires: the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) of the Middle East and Europe, the Safavid Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty) of Persia and Central Asia, and the Mughal Empire of India; along with their contest and fall to the rise of the colonial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism) powers of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muslim_conquests&action=edit&section=14)] Decline and collapse: 1800–1924

The Mughal Empire declined in 1707 after the death of Aurangzeb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurangzeb) and was officially abolished by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857). The Safavid Empire ended with the death of its last ruler Ismail III who ruled from 1750 until his death in 1760. The last surviving Muslim empire, the Ottoman Empire, collapsed in 1918 in the aftermath of World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I). On March 3, 1924, the institution of the Caliphate was constitutionally abolished by President Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) as part of his reforms.

[octopusrex]

Only read the Koran once, but it did say there somewhere that belief cannot be forced..

Any Muslims in the room? Am I right about this?:mad:confused:

[eternal_spirit]

Chapter 25
Problem having its Roots in Religious Fanaticism



The basis of Kashmir problem is neither economic backwardness nor political suffocation. Its roots are in the froth of religious fanaticism which are being nourished both by India and Pakistan.

As a result of our aimless and weak policies, Kashmiri youths have, with open support from Pakistan, taken up the spears for the Islamic Jehad. The programme of Islamisation in Kashmir, which is on in Kashmir for the last several years, is being given final shape. The mass exodus of Kashmiri Pandits has left the Valley Hinduless. Conspiracies for removing all the Indian ymbols in Kashmir are being hatched. Temples have been destroyed. The ancient names of towns and roads have been changed and Muslim names have been given to them. The Indira Gandhi airport has become now Mohamad Ali Jinnah airport. "Aslam alekum" has replaced Namaskar on Srinagar Doordarshan. Watches have Pakistan timings. People take pride in burning of the Constitution of India and the Indian flag. Sanskrit words are being deleted from the Kashmiri language and are being replaced by Arabic words. The first phase of total indepedence for Kashmir was to oust Hindus from the Valley. Success has been achieved in this respect. The second phase was to destabilise and paralyse the state administration in which also success has been attained. Now the third process of guerrilla attacks on the Army are being undertaken to complete the third phase. Terrorists rule Kashmir these days.

Incitement to religious fanaticism
Whatever is happening in Kashmir, it is not an ordinary reaction, a hartal or satyagrah but a revolt based on separatism. It is an anti-national volcano born out of Islamic fundamentalism which the fundamentalist organisations have, through conspiracies during the last 45 years, promoted it. In the schools run by Jamait-e-Islami boys were taught the lessons on fundamentalism and separatism. In the name of propagation of Islam a powerful campaign was launched in the mosques against the Indian nationalism. All these religious activities and campaigns have received support from the successive state Governments. The support of the state administration was fully made available.

As a result of guidance and support from the pro-Pak and fanatic fundamentalists, Jamait-e-Islami succeeded in running 11,000 Urdu and Arabic schools in Kashmir where over 30,000 Molvis and over one lakh students were being given anti-India indoctrinatian in the name of Islamic education. There were 2500 mosques in Kashmir in 1947 and their number rose to 15,000 in l992. There is domination of Aligarh University trained teachers in Government schools and colleges in Kashmir. It was done under a plan and the result of such evil schemes is the Kashmir of today. About l00 militant outfits are engaged in the struggle these days. There can be differences among them on the question of accession to Pakistan or to remain independent but all of them are united against India. They do not want to live in India and their names and style of functioning are of Irani, Afghani and Arabic traditions.


http://www.kashmir-information.com/ConvertedKashmir/Chapter25.html

[tjohn]

I'm shocked!

[eternal_spirit]

I'm shocked!

Believe me the further you delve and look into it, it keeps on getting worse.

It's a religion turned political entity octopus that extends across the planet. Imagine another political party or religion even, doing what Islam does. Wouldn't it be time for a pact/alliance of countries to challenge and defend themselves against Islam's behaviour.

That's what used to happen through history. Seems like Islam and Communism mostly has been left to do what it likes, contrary to the suffering they cause others not of their ilk. Anyone would think it's a NWO Elites plan.

[eternal_spirit]

Some videos parts filmed on a hidden camera inside Mosque showing hate speechKaffirs infidels and other info.
Undercover Islam in the U.K.
"Live like a state within a state until you take over!"
Part 1 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=110_1191101925) (9:46)
Part 2 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1e5_1191108303) (9:56)
Part 3 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=80d_1191112572) (9:58)
Part 4 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=00b_1191113404) (9:57)
Part 5 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cf5_1191115908) (7:27)

[eternal_spirit]

Ten thousand Lebanese Christians were massacred in 1860s, while over 100,000 were killed in the Lebanese civil war of 1975-1990. Thousands of women were raped. That war was provoked by Yasser Arafat's PLO. Damour (http://web.archive.org/web/20030622171340/http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/christianity/day3.htm) was once a thriving Christian Lebanese village until 500 (primarily young boys) were massacred and its population was expelled. This sort of violence and intolerance symbolizes treatment of Christians by Muslims in the Middle East. And, instead of an international arrest warrant Arafat received a Nobel Peace Prize!
Even non-Muslim Christians under Palestinian-controlled areas ["West Bank" and Gaza] are not faring so well. Bethlehem was 70 percent Christian in the 1970s. Today it is close to 70 percent Muslim. The growing Islamization of Palestinian society makes Christians very uncomfortable. The size of the Christian Arab community in the West Bank may have fallen as low as 10,000, a drop of 50 percent since the mid-1990s.



Why have two million Christians fled the Middle East in the last twenty years? One of the most important aspects of the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict that has been overlooked is the plight of Christians in the Holy Land. Christians in the "Palestinian" territories have dropped from 15% of the Arab population to just 2% today! This Christian exodus is a result of many factors, including the fighting between Israelis and "Palestinians," the related decline in the economy, but perhaps most significantly, the religious persecution these Christians encounter from their Arab Muslim neighbors. This film (https://websecurise.com/payment/newPayment/CreditCard/login.asp?ResellerSiteID=7) is a documentary containing interviews with Christians as well as exclusive footage showing how dangerous their situation is under Islamic rule.

Indonesia is composed of seventeen thousand islands that stretch over five thousand miles along the equator. Most are Muslims but there are substantial Christian, Hindu and Buddhist minorities. Christian churches were almost wiped out in a single weekend in Indonesia

[flickflack]

Some videos parts filmed on a hidden camera inside Mosque showing hate speechKaffirs infidels and other info.
Undercover Islam in the U.K.
"Live like a state within a state until you take over!"
Part 1 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=110_1191101925) (9:46)
Part 2 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1e5_1191108303) (9:56)
Part 3 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=80d_1191112572) (9:58)
Part 4 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=00b_1191113404) (9:57)
Part 5 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cf5_1191115908) (7:27)

I think what have happened in the UK is that they have already created a state within the State... It's called Londonistan. A place where Muslim immigrants burn the flag of the country they have immigrated to. They are not grateful at all, they are fighters and show utter contempt for human life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=5154894

[eternal_spirit]

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/12/antwerp-arab-riots-jewish-neighborhood.html

The demonstration that the Arab European League (AEL) in Borgerhout (Antwerp) Germany organized against the bombardments of the Gaza Strip, has gotten completely out of hand. After the protest disbanded the demonstrators marched towards the Jewish neighborhood in Antwerp, clashing with the police. In particular car windows suffered, but also trams and buses were attacked.

Many Jews don't dare anymore to go out on the streets in the area of the demonstrators. They fear vandalism and violence. An internal SMS service of the Jewish community of Antwerp warns Jews to avoid the areas of the Turnhoutsebaan and the Diamantwijk, reports Michael Freilich of the Jewish newspaper Joods Actueel.

"The protesters must realize that Antwerp Jews are also Flemish and not Israeli soldiers. They have nothing to do with what is currently happening in the Gaza Strip," says Freilich.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oqXpnURgYXo/SVunsuDIM7I/AAAAAAAAApE/HK4ABFNDbDs/s320/large_718095.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oqXpnURgYXo/SVunsuDIM7I/AAAAAAAAApE/HK4ABFNDbDs/s1600-h/large_718095.jpg)Polygamy is now legal for Muslims in Germany. But polygamy is illegal for none Muslims.


Antwerp: Muslim attacks Jews

According to the Belga news agency, the man spoke a foreign language, but it's unclear which. According to one victim he spoke Arabic, but others think it was Polish (HLN (http://hln.be/hln/nl/957/Belgie/article/detail/742367/2009/03/04/Vier-joodse-mannen-aangevallen-in-Antwerpen.dhtml), NL). Given the description below, it looks like a Muslim religiously motivated attack.

This evening there were three separate attacks, suspected to have been committed by the same culprit

In the area of the Somersstraat between 8pm and 8:30pm, a man of Arabic origin attacked three religious Jews without provocation.

The man, ~1.70m high, attacked his victims with a steel bar while shouting "Allah Akbar" ('Allah is Great') and "Yahud, Yahud" ('Jew, Jew').

One of the victims suffered multiple fractures in his hand and was brought for treatment to St. Vincentius hospital.

The last victim, while defending himself, took hold of the steel bar, which caused the culprit to flee.
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/03/antwerp-muslim-attacks-jews.html

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1061539&postcount=89

[blue]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SbR-dJnmRgI/AAAAAAAAAXo/CX4aPnVMPnQ/s400/muslims-beating-hindu.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SbR-dJnmRgI/AAAAAAAAAXo/CX4aPnVMPnQ/s1600-h/muslims-beating-hindu.jpg)

A Hindu being beaten by Muslims in a mosque in Bangladesh. He was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayerswere over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Mr. Vimal Patak a Bangladeshi born Hindu was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim mullahs chanted “Kill the kafir! (non-muslim).” He died begging for his life

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IX6tNKXpU4M/SbR-Ek43v4I/AAAAAAAAAXA/Kb9Tf77h3CE/s400/kashmir-mosaic.jpg

A mosaic displaying the genocide of Hindus in jammu & Kashmir by Muslim militants



thats just one side of the coin regarding the muslim hindus being killed in kashmir.Many muslim youths are being killed by military and police.

[blue]

ES your posts are so anit-muslim these days. whats got into you bro?

[eternal_spirit]

ES your posts are so anit-muslim these days. whats got into you bro?

I am anti Jihad and against religions that preach hatred and bile towards my own kind (you know us Kuffars which covers everyone who isn't Muslim) I don't want the Islamisation of my own lands, same as the people in other countries don't, unfortunately it's already happend in some places already.

Any info on what's going down in India? 1400 years of Jihad later. or is there enough on this thread already?

[eternal_spirit]

Offensive Jihad, Futuhat and Islamic Conquests

quotes from islamic websites
(note: some of the url's may have become inoperative; updates/new url's will be given here when found)

mirrored at: http://islamdebatingkit.ezfish.net/jihad.html


From:
The Types of Jihad
http://www.ummah.net.pk/harkat/jihad/t-jihad.htm
(site is offline, but here's the google-cache of the article)

For easier reading link - http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

[blue]

I am anti Jihad and against religions that preach hatred and bile towards my own kind (you know us Kuffars which covers everyone who isn't Muslim) I don't want the Islamisation of my own lands, same as the people in other countries don't, unfortunately it's already happend in some places already.

Any info on what's going down in India? 1400 years of Jihad later. or is there enough on this thread already?

many things goin on in india..come down to india and live here. you should be here and see for yourself. stop this jihad shit. every religion preaches hatred towards mankind. for every religion, the other religious person is a kuffar. no body likes religious conversion in their own lands...christianity is taking over india...so what do you suggest? the chief minister of my state is a converted christian and most of his party members are. there is a mass christian conversion goin on in india. you should first research and be aware rather than posting stories that tell only one side of the coin. dont be an ignorant fool. you already proved with your shitty posts.

[blue]

22-year-old Nelofar and her sister-in-law Asiya were raped and murdered by security forces. One of the lady was pregnant. The Kashmir valley continues to echo with protests over the alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian. There are many unanswered questions after an inconclusive autopsy report and another forensic test.

The city of Srinagar has been under siege for the last ten days after the bodies of two young women - Neelofar and Asiya -- were mysteriously fished out from a local river. The police have officially filed a case of rape, but as the Centre keeps a close watch and Chief Minister Omar Abdullah grapples with street protests, the questions continue to multiply.

The reports confirm the presence of semen on both bodies, but does not draw a firm conclusion on murder saying the probable cause of the deaths was hemorrhage and neurogenic shock." Meanwhile, a judicial commission is already investigating the death of the two women and now the Home Minister P Chidambaram is on his way to Srinagar later this week as well.

The family says it won't settle for less than swift justice for the killings. "I want that the murderer should be brought to book, he should be punished. Government must punish the accused for rape and murder," said a family member of victims.

I would like to see some anti-hindu posts now by the ignorant fool ES.

[eternal_spirit]

Blue are you a Muslim? because you sound like one.
Islam invaded India, any response to Islam is in self defence. Blue you're welcome to star a thread if you wanna bash Hindus and Christians (there's thousand of threads dissing the latter on here already)

In case the ramifications of the unfolding scenario are not yet clear to Indians, the bomb-blasts and religious riots are a roaring continuation of the 1400-year Jihad against India – an ongoing war that will culminate in the Islamisation of what’s left of Hindustan. Already the demographic battle is underway and the Mughalistan scenario looks feasible

http://delhiwatch.wordpress.com/2009/04/

The Partition of India provided temporary respite to the Indians and merely postponed the inevitable outcome. By 1971, all across Sindh, Western Punjab, Gandhara (Kandahar) and Eastern Bengal, the native populations of the Indian Religionists (Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains) have been wiped out almost entirely by conversion, massacre and mass exodus. Extrapolating this scenario, we find ominous results. This Islamic beach-head, which squeezes India from both sides (Pakistan and Bangladesh), gradually links up with a Fifth Column within India and gains fresh territorial and demographic victories within the last two decades (Kashmir valley, several districts of West Bengal and Assam, Malappuram district in Kerala and the Hyderabad-Deccan region). The Islamic Anschluss creeps steadily and bloodily, until the Western beach-head (Pakistan) is linked up demographically with the Eastern beach-head (Bangladesh) through the formation of a Islam-dominated belt called “Mughalstan”, that will then run through Jammu, Mewat, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal and Assam.

It is important to note that in its “holy war” against India, the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba has openly declared Hindus to be the "enemies of Islam" who should all be converted or killed. The Lashkar-e-Tayyaba group has repeatedly claimed through its journals and websites that its main aim is to destroy the Indian republic and to annihilate Hinduism. Jaish-e-Mohammed has vowed to "liberate" not just Kashmir, but also to hoist the Islamic flag atop the historic Red Fort after capturing New Delhi and the rest of India.




In 2005, the Congress (I) state government in Haryana quietly created a Muslim-majority district called Mewat, by vivisecting Gurgaon district. This move strengthened the clout of Islamic groups in the region. After all, it was in Haryana’s Mewat region in 1992, that Muslim mobs in Nuh town had hacked Hindus, destroyed Hindu temples and brazenly slaughtered cows openly on streets after seizing them from Gau Shalas (cow shelters). Today, the mass conversion of Hindu villagers to Islam, purchasing tens of thousands of Hindu girls for use as sex-slaves, cow-slaughter and social boycott of Hindus is common in Muslim families in Mewat. The average Muslim birth rates of 12-15 children per household in Mewat is increasing even more by cases like the Mohammed Ishaq family where the patriarch has sired 23 kids from his wife, Bismillah.

The 2008 bomb blasts targeting Hindu temples and civilians in Jaipur underscore the rising tension in Rajasthan.

Muslim-majority cities like Old Delhi and Malerkotla (in Indian Punjab) provide not only shelter to Jihadi terrorists, but also geographic continuity to Muslim-dominated districts of western Uttar Pradesh (UP), especially Agra, Aligarh, Azamgarh, Meerut, Bijnor as well as Muzaffarnagar, Kanpur, Varanasi, Bareilly, Saharanpur and Moradabad. Muslim attacks on Hindu religious processions, religious riots and bomb blasts are common place in UP as was seen in Mau, Ayodhya, Lucknow and Kanpur.

The entire Kashmiri Hindu population (known as Kashmiri Pandits) having been driven away, killed or converted between 1990 and 2000 in a silent, mass genocide (http://www.kashmir-information.com/ConvertedKashmir/)

and the Mughalistan scenario looks feasible

SIMI has championed the "liberation of India through Islam" and aim to restore the supremacy of Islam through the resurrection of the Khilafat (Islamic Caliphate), emphasis on the Muslim Ummah (Islamic) and the waging of Jihad on the Indian state, secularism, democracy and nationalism – the basic keystones of the Indian Constitution – as these concepts are antithetical to Islam. The Indian Mujahideen have sent several emails claiming responsibility for several bombings in Lucknow, Varanasi and Faizabad (in Uttar Pradesh), Bangalore, Jaipur, Ahmedabad and New Delhi in 2007 and 2008. The emails refer to notorious Islamic conquerors of India (Mohammed bin Qasim, Mohammad Ghauri and Mahmud Ghaznawi) as their role-models, refer to Hindu blood as “blood to be the cheapest of all mankind” and taunt Hindus that their “[Hindu] history is full of subjugation, humiliation, and
insult [at the hands of Islamic
conquerors]".

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=67609&page=2 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67609&page=2)

[mr t]

Mohammed bin Qasim actually went to what is now Pakistan after being asked for for help by the muslims ALREADY living there, after a genocidal hindu king.

[mr t]

I doubt very much Bangladesh would want join with pakistan after fighting a war of independence:confused: Bangladesh was known as East Pakistan.

Do you have any sense of logic and reasoning?

[mr t]

Also there is no punishment for leaving Islam, if a person leaves islam then attacks muslims, he may be dealt with as any other person. Stop spreading your disinformation, lies and taking things out of context.

[eternal_spirit]

I have no idea why you're denying reality MR T.

[mr t]

I have no idea why you're denying reality MR T.

you seem to be fixated, an obsession, that isnt reality, you attack peaople when proved wrong and become frustrated, repeating the same old stuff again and again.:(

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/

non-Muslims in the West, as well as in India, China, Russia, and the world over, are facing a concerted effort by Islamic jihadists, the motives and goals of whom are largely ignored by the Western media, to destroy their societies and bring them forcibly into the Islamic world -- and to commit violence to that end even while their overall goal remains out of reach. That effort goes under the general rubric of jihad. Jihad (Arabic for "struggle") is a central duty of every Muslim. Modern Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: the struggle within the soul, defending the faith from critics, supporting its growth and defense financially, even migrating to non-Muslim lands for the purpose of spreading Islam. But violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. Many passages of the Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad are used by jihad warriors today to justify their actions and gain new recruits. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad. The theology of jihad, which denies unbelievers equality of human rights and dignity, is available today for anyone with the will and means to bring it to life.
Jihad Watch is dedicated to bringing public attention to the role that jihad theology and ideology plays in the modern world, and to correcting popular misconceptions about the role of jihad and religion in modern-day conflicts. We hope to alert people of good will to the true nature of the present global conflict.

[lightgiver]

Oh what a surprise yet another pathetic thread on muslin haters :rolleyes:

My goodness how tedious is this.

what a complete waste of a human life,all that hate and negativity in the mind stream.


Maybe This person needs to fly on a BNP forum.You are far from your goal.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9044/yawn1xt4.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/yawn1xt4.jpg/)

[eternal_spirit]

But will the world take notice? Ever?
In Muslims Persecute Christians (http://frontpagemagazine.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=35788)

this morning:


On Saturday, a frenzied mob of three thousand Muslims stormed the tiny Pakistani Christian village of Gojra. Enflamed by (unconfirmed) charges that a Christian had burned pages of the Qur’an, the mob burned down fifty homes, burned eight Christians alive, and wounded twenty others. Thousands of Christians fled the area.

Last Thursday, enraged by the same report of blasphemy, another Muslim mob torched seventy-five Christian homes, along with two churches, in Koriyan, a village near Gojra.

Muslims are not persecuting Christians only in Pakistan. On July 18, Muslims in Alexandria, Egypt kidnapped a sixteen-year-old Christian girl, Amira Markos, while she was on her way to work. Shortly thereafter her mother received a phone call: “At 10 o’clock of the same morning someone called me and asked if I was Amira’s mother. He introduced himself as Sheikh Mohammed, and said that my daughter is fine and will convert to Islam. When I cried and begged him to let me have my daughter back, he said he would let me see her again after her conversion to Islam, and ended the call.”

Amira’s mother went to a local mosque, where matters got even worse. A Muslim sheikh told her: “Listen, mother of Amira, I am warning you not to report the abduction to the police or do anything, the price will be your son Meena [a nine-year-old boy] being slaughtered in front of your own eyes. I am not threatening, I’m talking seriously. Listen, your daughter Amira will convert to Islam next Friday, and we are now preparing her for that. Now go home and stay indoors until everything is quietly over.”

This is nothing new. The leader of Egypt’s Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III, said in 2004: “I have received so many letters about what’s happening to the Christian girls who go to supermarket stores to shop. At the store they tell them that they have won and have to go upstairs to receive their award or prize. After that we don’t know what’s happening to these girls upstairs. We don’t know where they took the girls. They could be anywhere.” They most likely have been taken to places where they can be pressured to convert to Islam.

Explained Wilfred Wong of the Jubilee Campaign, a Christian human rights group: “The attempts to force Christians to convert to Islam in Egypt are on the increase and the methods are getting increasingly varied and well organized.” These efforts “are being conducted by well funded groups. It is common for money to be offered to Christians to convert to Islam...but it also common for intimidation and force, including kidnapping and the threat or use of rape to be adopted as a method of making Christians convert to Islam. Christian women and girls are especially vulnerable to these attacks and the Egyptian authorities do nothing to protect the Christians. The Egyptian police even order the families of kidnapped Christian women to forget about their daughters and not to try to get them back.”

From where does the Islamic animus toward Christians come? Certainly Islamic jihadists despise Christians based on Qur’anic imperatives -- verses that say that those who “call Christ the son of Allah” are under “Allah’s curse” (9:30), and that command Muslims to “fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day...(even if they are) of the People of the Book” -- that is, primarily Jews and Christians (9:29). Islamic apologists in the West assure non-Muslims that Muslims do not take such passages literally today, yet the daily news contradicts them. Muslims in far too many areas of the world are growing increasingly less tolerant toward their non-Muslim neighbors.

Destruction of lives and property over unsubstantiated charges that would be trivial even if they were substantiated. Kidnapping and forced conversion. Yet these incidents have received only scant attention in the mainstream media. And not only the international media, but also the human rights establishment and the United Nations, continue to take no notice. In their conceptual framework, only Westerners can do evil, and Christians cannot possibly play the role of victim. The sooner the world casts off these Leftist/jihadist fantasies, the better off we’ll all be. But there are no signs that such an awakening will take place anytime soon, if ever.

[lightgiver]

"All the world's a stage..." ~ Shakespeare AKA Franny bacon sarny

STAGED EVENTS
also know as
ORDER OUT OF CHAOS
from the Latin
ORDO AB CHAO

The puppetmasters create "disorder" so the people will demand "order". The price of "order" always entails a handing over of control and loss of freedom on the part of the citizenry. Out of "chaos" comes "order" - THEIR order - their new WORLD order.

Orwell Today will list some historical and present-day examples of chaotic events that achieve the aims desired by the powers-that-be. This list is by no means complete but should give people the general idea.

The trick of creating chaos and then seizing power under the pretense of putting things back in order is a tried and true method of deception and manipulation. It's the meaning behind the Latin motto: ORDO AB CHAO meaning ORDER OUT OF CHAOS.

[eternal_spirit]

Still more on this story (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027095.php). As the violence spreads, it is ever clearer that the "blasphemy" accusation, spurious as it is, is just a pretext. This appears to have been a massacre waiting for an excuse. "Eight Christians burned alive in Punjab," by Fareed Khan for AsiaNews (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=15943&size=A), August 2:
Gojra (AsiaNews) - Pakistani special forces have taken control of the town of Gojra (Punjab) after yesterday’s bloody episode in which at least 8 people - including 4 women and a child of 7 years - were burned alive and 20 others wounded. At least 50 houses of Christians were burned and destroyed and thousands of faithful fled to escape execution. Relatives of the victims refuse to take care of dead bodies and do not want funerals until the culprits are arrested. Some of the killed have been identified: Hamed Masih, 50, Asia Bibi, 20; Asifa Bibi, 19, Imam Bibi, 22; Musa 7; Akhlas Masih, 40, Parveen, 50. At least 3 thousand Muslims, after they have were incited by local religious authorities, marched to the Christian village Gojra founded 50 years ago. Groups of young Muslims - perhaps from the Sunni group Sipah-e-Sahabaha - with their faces covered started to shoot wildly. The villagers fled, but some were trapped and were killed by the uncontrollable fire unleashed by the mob. To burn the houses, the militants used a particular fuel, that is difficult to extinguish. According to witnesses, the same fuel was used in the village of Shanti Nagar, burned in February 2007, in the destruction of the village of Sangla Hill (2005); in the burning of the 50 houses of Christians and the two churches on the evening of July 30 in Koriyan near Gojra. It all started weeks ago with charges of blasphemy against Talib Masih, who is accused of having burned pages of the Koran during a wedding ceremony on July 29 at Koriyan. On July 30 hundreds of Islamic militants attacked and set on fire the houses of Christians in Koriyan and two Protestant churches, the Church of Pakistan and the New Apostolic Church. According to police, some Christians fired shots against the militants, further fuelling their violent response. The minister for minorities, Beat Shahbaz, a Catholic, has accused the police of negligence. The local Christians say they have been requesting the protection of law enforcement officers for days because the situation was tense, but have been ignored. Some Christians argue that although the police were present during the attack at Gojra, the thugs were not apprehended. Other witnesses say that after a while the police tried to stop them, but the militants also attacked the police injuring some....

[mr t]

lol, funny how all this happening now that the americans are bombing pakistan.

[eternal_spirit]

Not to mention Islams 1400 year Jihad on India.

[eternal_spirit]

A few examples there's loads more
(even more can be found do your own search don't attack the messenger and accuse him of using biased sources) note to the Mohammeden apologists
http://muttaqun.com/music.html
Explanation from Sheikh Ibn Baz
Shaykh Ibn Baz (may Allah have mercy on him) said in Majmoo' al-Fataawa, 3/423-424:
"Ma'aazif refers to singing and musical instruments. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that at the end of time there will come a people who will allow these things just as they will allow alcohol, zina and silk. This is one of the signs of his Prophethood, for all of this has happened. The hadeeth indicates that [musical instruments] are haram (prohibited), and condemns those who say they are halal (permissible), just as it condemns those who say that alcohol and zina are allowed. The aayaat and ahaadeeth that warn against singing and musical instruments are many indeed. Whoever claims that Allaah has allowed singing and musical instruments is lying and is committing a great evil.


We ask Allaah to keep us from obeying our desires and the Shaytaan. Even worse and more seriously sinful than that are those who say it is mustahabb. Undoubtedly this stems from ignorance about Allaah and His Religion; it is insolent blasphemy against Allaah and lying about His Laws.
What is mustahabb (recommended) is to beat on the daff [simple hand drum] at weddings. This is mustahabb for women only, in order to announce the wedding and to distinguish it from fornication.


There is nothing wrong with women singing amongst themselves, accompanied by the daff, so long as the songs contain no words that encourage evil or distract people from their duties. It is also a condition that this should take place among women only, and there should be no mixing with men. It should also not cause any annoyance or disturbance to neighbours. What some people do, of amplifying such singing with loudspeakers is evil, because of the disturbance it causes to other Muslims, neighbours and others. It is not permissible for women, in weddings or on other occasions, to use any instrument other than the daff, such as the oud, violin, rebab (stringed instrument) and so on.



This is evil, and the only concession that women are given is that they may use the daff.
As for men, it is not permissible for them to play any kind of musical instrument, whether at weddings or on any other occasion. What Allaah has prescribed for men is training in the use of instruments of war, such as target practice or learning to ride horses and competing in that, using spears, shields, tanks, airplanes and other things such as cannons, machine guns, bombs and anything else that may help jihaad for the sake of Allaah."

The Prohibition The Noble Qur'an - Luqman 31:6
And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allah, the Verses of the Qur'an) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-Fire).

Ibn Masood (ra) said about this verse "I swear by the One other than Whom there is no God that it refers to singing [ghinaa].", and he repeated this three times. Ibn Abbaas (ra) said it refered to 'singing and the like' while Jaabir (ra) is reported to view its meaning to signify singing and listening to songs. Many taabi'oon such as Mujaahid, Ikrimah, Mak-hool and Umar ibn Shu'ayb viewed it as a censure of music and song.

Hadith - Bukhari (#787) [Also related by Tabari]
Sa'id ibn Jbayr reported that Ibn 'Abbas said about the verse: "And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks" (31:6), that, "ldle talks means singing and the like."

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Isra 17:64
"And Istafiz [literally means: befool them gradually] those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and other call for Allah's disobedience)..."

Hadith - Bukhari 7:494
Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari that he heard the Prophet http://muttaqun.com/graphics/saaws-long.gif saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks, and the use of musical instruments as lawful. And (from them), there will be some who will stay near the side of a mountain, and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and Allah will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection."

The Noble Qur'an - An-Najm 53:57-62
The Day of Resurrection draws near, None besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it). Do you then wonder at this recital (the Qur'an)? And you laugh at it and weep not, Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.). So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone).


‘Ikrimah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: it was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that al-sumood [verbal noun from saamidoon, translated here as “Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)”] means “singing”, in the dialect of Himyar; it might be said “Ismidi lanaa” [‘sing for us’ – from the same root as saamidoon/sumood] meaning “ghaniy” [sing]. And he said (may Allaah have mercy on him): When they [the kuffaar] heard the Qur’aan, they would sing, then this aayah was revealed.
Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Allah says (interpretation of the meaning) “Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)” – Sufyaan al-Thawri said, narrating from his father from Ibn ‘Abbaas: (this means) singing. This is Yemeni (dialect): ismad lana means ghan lana [sing to us]. This was also the view of ‘Ikrimah. (Tafseer Ibn Katheer).


Use of a Simple Drum

Use of the "duff" (simple drum) is permitted in Islam for a practical purpose (such as establishing a simple beat for exercise, rowing, and other labors), but not to be done by a Muslim for entertainment or idleness. In such instances, it must not be played as music, such as by enhancing rhythm, whistling a tune and whatnot. Ibn al-Qayyim said in Ighaathat al-Lahfaan (1/256) that the prohibition against the use of instruments refers to "all kinds of things used for entertainment."
According to the Sunnah, females can sing and beat the duff on the two 'Eids (specific Muslim celebrations) and to announce a Muslim wedding amongst themselves, and their voices shouldn't be raised loud enough or near enough to be heard by the men.
Poetry is also permitted, but it must not contain shirk (the major sin of associating a partner in worship with Allah, i.e. trinity, major or minor shirk, etc.).
The woman's voice should not be used in an attractive way around non-mahram (http://muttaqun.com/dictionary3.html#Mahram) men and to them it must be limited to necessity (physical necessity such as asking for something at the store, not emotional 'necessity' such as social conversation). Men and women must not engage in idle or social conversations with non-mahrams (http://muttaqun.com/dictionary3.html#Mahram) (those not related as specified in The Quran). Muslim men should avoid listening to a non-related (i.e. non-mahram) female voice (such as pop singers, etc.) except when it is unavoidable or due to her speaking out of necessity and not socializing.

The Noble Qur'an - An-Najm 53:57-62
The Prophet came to me after consuming his marriage with me and sat down on my bed as you (the sub-narrator) are sitting now, and small girls were beating the duff* and singing in lamentation of my father who had been killed on the day of the battle of Badr. Then one of the girls said, "There is a Prophet amongst us who knows what will happen tomorrow." The Prophet [saaws] said (to her),"Do not say this, but go on saying what you have spoken before."
* duff /daff- a one-sided drum made of animal skin.
The Noble Qur'an - Al-Ahzab 33:32
O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allâh), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.



Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawood, #4909, Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud
Salam ibn Miskin, quoting an old man who witnessed AbuWa'il in a wedding feast, said: They began to play, amuse and sing. He united the support of his hand round his knees that were drawn up, and said: I heard Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud) say: I heard the apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) say: Singing produces hypocrisy in the heart.

Intentions as it Relates to Hearing Music
Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Concerning (music) which a person does not intend to listen to, there is no prohibition or blame, according to scholarly consensus. Hence blame or praise is connected to listening, not to hearing. The one who listens to the Qur'aan will be rewarded for it, whereas the one who hears it without intending or wanting to will not be rewarded for that, because actions are judged by intentions. The same applies to musical instruments which are forbidden: if a person hears them without intending to, that does not matter. (al-Majmoo', 10/78).
Imaam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about playing the drum or flute, if a person happens to hear the sound and enjoy it whilst he is walking or sitting. He said: He should get up if he finds that he enjoys it, unless he is sitting down for a need or is unable to get up. If he is on the road, he should either go back or move on. (al-Jaami' by al-Qayrawaani, 262). He (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: "The only people who do things like that, in our view, are faasiq's." (Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 14/55).
Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not permissible to make musical instruments. (al-Majmoo', 22/140). And he said: According to the majority of fuqahaa', it is permissible to destroy musical instruments, such as the tanboor [a stringed instrument similar to a mandolin]. This is the view of Maalik and is the more famous of the two views narrated from Ahmad. (al-Majmoo', 28/113). Ibn Abi Shaybah (may Allaah have mercy on him) reported that a man broke a mandolin belonging to another man, and the latter took his case to Shurayh. But Shurayh did not award him any compensation, i.e., he did not make the first man pay the cost of the mandolin, because it was haram and had no value. (al-Musannaf, 5/395).

A Haram (Prohibited) Profession
It is haram (prohibited) to be work as a salesperson in a store that sells musical instruments. It is permissible to sell an instrument for its parts, such as to have it melted down, etc. It is of course, as shown by the evidences above, haram to be a musician.
Al-Baghawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) stated in a fatwa that it is haram to sell all kinds of musical instruments such as mandolins, flutes, etc. Then he said: If the images are erased and the musical instruments are altered, then it is permissible to sell their parts, whether they are silver, iron, wood or whatever. (Sharh al-Sunnah, 8/28)

Effeminate Men
Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made allowances for certain types of musical instruments at weddings and the like, and he made allowances for women to play the daff at weddings and on other joyful occasions. But the men at his time did not play the daff or clap with their hands. It was narrated in al-Saheeh that he said: "Clapping is for women and tasbeeh (saying Subhaan Allaah) is for men." And he cursed women who imitate men and men who imitate women.
Because singing and playing the daff are things that women do, the Salaf (men of the far past) used to call any man who did that a mukhannath (effeminate man), and they used to call male singers effeminate - and how many of them there are nowadays! It is well known that the Salaf said this.
Related Links:
Listening to Music and Singing (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1716/music.html)
Music is Haram (http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/MusicisHaram.htm)
The Four Imams on Music (http://islamselect.com/en/mat/46100)




Get rid of those Michael Jackson CD's


If you had a large music collection as a kaffir, have a collection just as large, but instead fill your library with Islamic audio tapes and lectures.
Think about how many hundreds or maybe even thousands of dollars you've spent on music cd's and tapes that you could now spend on a home Islamic library.

[jud1th]

Have any of you read ' The Prophet Muhammed' by Barnaby Rogerson.
Barnaby is a brit and we think he gives a fairly balenced view of the Islamic faith.

BUT: From what i see and read, this all about fracturing societies and Structures and it sure looks better on the news to have groups massacreing each other than government led armies, its also cheaper.
Many religions happily intermarry, its governments that cause the problems. Keep peoples blood boiling and religions start to split and become more hard line and more to our disliking.
I would love to know which religion the Taliban are following with their love for little girls and boys and the other disgusting atrocities they commit. Everything is so nasty and
twisted now.

I live in a secular society that is oviously predominately Muslim, i see the other side of Islam and how it works, and my god its far better than christianity.

[eternal_spirit]

Pakistan:
800 music shops bombed over three years

“No doubt this is the most critical phase in the history of our province,” writes journalist Shaheen Buneri about the situation in north-western Pakistan where he is based. “The singers and muscians are living a hard life, and most of them are displaced from their homes. My heart pains!,” he writes in an email to Freemuse.

On 9 July 2009 The Media Line published his article ‘Snuffing Music & Dance: The Taliban's Cultural Invasion’ where Shaheen Buneri describes the Taliban’s mission to ‘purge’ Swat valley of the evils of singing and dancing, and how different Taliban groups gradually has engulfed the whole of north-western Pakistan.

He summarizes events since changes in the area began in September 2007, when Maulana Fazlullah, a cleric turned militant commander, vehemently discouraged music, dancing and all forms of entertainment in his broadcasts on a pirate FM radio station.

Fled Swat valley
Shaheen Buneri reports that it has been estimated that more than 800 music shops have been bombed in different parts of Northwestern Pakistan since 2006. Hundreds of singers, musicians, poets and dancers have fled Swat valley since the Taliban's clamp-down on music in the area. They are now living in Peshawar, Lahore, and Karachi. As their livelihoods have been taken away from them, they are now confronted with serious financial crises.

Firoz Khan, a businessman managing a textile industry in Karachi, told Shaeen Buneri that the lack of opportunity for female singers and dancers to express their talents in an acceptable manner has forced some of them into prostitution.

Despite claims of impending action from the secular Pashtun Awami National Party in North West Frontier Province (NWFP), no concrete steps have been taken to protect singers and musicians from the Taliban onslaught, or to provide relief for the artists' families.

Murdered harmonium player
On 15 December 2008, unidentified militants targeted Sardar Yousafzai, a popular Pashtun singer, while he was driving his car with members of his orchestra in Malakand Agency. The bullets missed Sardar Yousafzai, but his colleague, the harmonium player Anwar Gul, was murdered in the attack.

"They want to kill me because I am a singer and I don't subscribe to their narrow version of Islam," Yousafzai said. He is currently staying in Peshawar to avoid Taliban attacks and support his family back home. He is seriously concerned about the safety of his family but he can't afford to move them to a safer place.

Replaced by Jihadi CDs
Locals believe that by targeting singers and artists, the Taliban will close the doors of artistic expression and create an environment in which their own brand of religion will prosper. The markets in Mingora, Peshawar, Charsada and Mardan were flooded with Jihadi CDs when traditional singing and dancing came to a halt.

"The people who earlier dealt in music CDs and cassettes are now selling stuff that promotes religious bigotry and obscurantism," says Ali Akbar Khan, owner of a music market in Mingora.

Shaheen Buneri is a tv and online journalist based in North West Pakistan

Pakistan:
800 music shops bombed over three years (http://www.freemuse.org/sw34395.asp)

[jud1th]

Have you ever read the book or seen the film,

The Kite Runner.



Gives a very unpleasant insight in to the Taliban!

[eternal_spirit]

I would love to know which religion the Taliban are following with their love for little girls and boys and the other disgusting atrocities they commit. Everything is so nasty and
twisted now.
It's nothing new just Islam doing what it's always done. All sources are from the Koran and hadiths enough said. This is the root of Islamic extremism.

[mr t]

lol!:D:D:D:p

We have seen your sources!

instead of calling eternal spirit try copy and paste, as thats all you do:p

[eternal_spirit]

My sources? The Koran and real life events.

[eternal_spirit]

link
Iran to Punish Apostasy with Death (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,538466,00.html)



Apostasy -- or the formal renunciation of religion -- is already punishable in Iran with death. But now, Iran wants to make the death penalty for apostasy part of the penal code. The European Union is concerned and has asked Iran to reconsider.

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1070208,00.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,grossbild-1070207-538466,00.html) http://www.spiegel.de/static/sys/v8/icons/ic_lupe.gif (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,grossbild-1070207-538466,00.html)
DPA
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't take kindly to Western criticism of his country's legal practices.


The European Union this week sent a letter to authorities in Iran expressing its concern over a proposed change to the penal code that would make apostasy punishable by death. The EU is responding to news that the Islamic Republic is planning to subject "apostasy, heresy and witchcraft" to the Hudud -- the body of fixed punishments assigned to crimes that are considered violations of the "claims of God." Other Hadud crimes include alcohol consumption, theft, highway robbery and illegal sexual intercourse.
As the news agency Reuters reported earlier this week, the EU, which opposes the death penalty as a matter of policy, expressed "acute concern" over the proposed penal code revision.
"These articles clearly violate the Islamic Republic of Iran's commitments under the international human rights conventions," Slovenian leaders, who currently head the rotating EU presidency, wrote in a statement.
"The EU calls upon the Iranian authorities, both in government and parliament, to modify the draft penal code in order to respect the obligations."
The death penalty has already been applied to apostates in Iran -- but this was never, since the founding of the Islamic Republic in 1979, institutionalized as a matter of legal practice.
Iran typically dismisses Western criticism of its legal system, claiming that Islamic law is fundamentally different.
The main concern seems to be arising from the Baha'i faith, which forms a religious minority in Iran but, unlike Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism, is not officially recognized by the regime.




On Thursday, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reported that the Baha'i community in Germany is particularly worried about the fate of three Iranian Baha'i, who were arrested in 2006 in the southern Iranian city of Schiras for having founded a center for Baha'i children and youth. They were sentenced to four years imprisonment and are said to be in a secret service rather than normal prison. At the beginning of February, the EU officially protested the sentence and expressed its concern about the "worsening situation for ethnic and religious minorities in Iran, in particular that of the Baha'i." The Iranian court defended its decision on the basis that the Baha'i, in promoting their faith, were spreading propaganda "against the Islamic regime."
The Baha'i faith developed out of Shia Islam in the 19th century and its followers have been subject to discrimination for generations.

[grachtengordel]

this thread is full of shite.

Eternal Spirit, what is YOUR problem with muslims or rather which specific incident happened to you that so distorted your perspective that you just blatantly spam up the forum with your propaganda.

I am just interested as to why you do this, what motivates you? are you paid to do this or did your girl run off with a muslim or something?

[picha]

this thread is full of shite.

Eternal Spirit, what is YOUR problem with muslims or rather which specific incident happened to you that so distorted your perspective that you just blatantly spam up the forum with your propaganda.

I am just interested as to why you do this, what motivates you? are you paid to do this or did your girl run off with a muslim or something?

This thread isnt full of shite. Like it or not, the punishment under islamic law for leaving islam is death.

Abu Dawud 38:4357 When the Apostle of Allah cut off the hands and feet of those who had stolen his camels and apostacised and had their eyes put out by fire, Allah reprimanded him and revealed: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for rnischief through the land is execution or crucifixion." (38A359).. or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land" This was "revealed about polytheists and if any of them repent before they are arrested it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment which he deserves"

Muslim 623 The Prophet said: "It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life (if the person is Muslim), and the deserter of Islam."

Bukhari 9:89:271 A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"

Apostasy is Equal to Treason
Why does Islam not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidad in Islam is equal to treason. ?In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah then the Prophet and then the Qur'an occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society, it is indeed a major fitna.

And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidad. It must be emphasized that irtidad which we are dicussing here involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply. The punishment prescibed by the shari'a for apostasy is death.

Even the terms used by the shari'a for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli. (1) Murtad Fitri means a person born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. Fitri means nature or natural. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostacized from his nature, the nature of believing in God. (2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means a community. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person that the person has apostacized from his community.

In the first case, the apostasy is like treason against God, whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like treason against the Muslim community. Probably, that is why there is also a difference in dealing with these two kinds of murtad.

A former kafir who becomes a Muslim and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.

But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah but he still has to go through the punishment prescibed for his treason in this world.

This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uu8U-EyCxYRant about Kaffirs and Islam is it's own law Shariah (through bullhorn) blah blah usual etc. Policeman trys to stop the rant and eventually police are chased down the streets and cornered by Islamic mob. Looks like London England.
Edited added info and video link which had vanished.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uu8U-EyCxY

[picha]

Edited added info and video link which had vanished.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uu8U-EyCxY

'let the kaffirs go to hell' I see this guy has really taken the true peaceful and tolerant message of islam to heart there.

[eternal_spirit]

'let the kaffirs go to hell' I see this guy has really taken the true peaceful and tolerant message of islam to heart there.

Agreed, hell to the Kaffirs in their own country:(, banging on about no one rules Muslims or something they have their own Sharia laws.

Where where the Police back ups? They always seem rather quick when it's none Muslims protesting. Wonder what happened next, after the video stopped. Those coppers must have been well freaked.

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.persecution.com/uploads/media/image_gallery/photo_Marzieh_Maryam.jpg

On March 5, Marzieh Amirizadeh Esmaeilabad and Maryam Rustampoor were arrested by Iranian security forces and labeled "anti-government activists," according to Farsi Christian News Network (FCNN). Thirty year-old Marzieh and 27-year-old Maryam are being held at Evin Prison, which is notorious for treating women badly. "Both women are allowed just a one minute telephone call everyday to their immediate families. Both are unwell and in need of urgent medical attention," FCNN reported. During their last call on March 28, Mazieh said that she was suffering from an infection and high fever. She said, "I am dying."
Marzieh and Maryam's apartment was searched and their belongings were confiscated. "Their only crime is that they are committed Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus," FCNN added. " They are being unfairly labeled as 'anti government activists' because of the hostility of the government towards practicing Christians."
The women have reportedly been interrogated numerous times and were held in three different police detention centers before being sent to Evin Prison. FCNN reported an exorbitant bail amount of US$ 400,000 has been set even though Marzieh and Maryam's families have been told on numerous occasions that a judge is not available to discuss the case.
Marzieh and Maryam's arrest is the latest incident highlighting increased government intimidation of Christians in Iran. Believers are subjected to surveillance, arrests, imprisonment, and sometimes torture.
The Voice of the Martyrs encourages you to pray for the immediate release of Marzieh and Maryam. Ask God to heal, encourage and protect them. Pray they will continue to stand for Christ during this difficult time.


http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=MTA4&ministory_ID=Mzg%3d&clickfrom=bWluaXN0b3JpZXM%3d

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=822830&highlight=beheaded#post822830

1
12,000+ deadly terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam in just the last seven years.(Other religions combined for perhaps a dozen or so).

#2
Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.

#3
Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger." In the last nine years of his life, he ordered no less than 65 military campaigns to do exactly that.

Muhammad inspired his men to war with the basest of motives, using captured loot, sex and a gluttonous paradise as incentives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. Again, Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.

#4
After Muhammad died, the people who lived with him, and knew his religion best, immediately fell into war with each other.

Muhammad's favorite daughter, Fatima, and her husband, Ali (the second convert to Islam, who was raised like a son to Muhammad) fought a war against an army raised by Aisha, Muhammad's favorite wife - and one whom he had said was the "perfect woman."

Not only was her husband, Ali, eventually murdered, but Fatima (who survived the early years at Mecca safe and sound) died of stress from the persecution of fellow Muslims only three months after her father died.

Three of the first four Muslim rulers (caliphs) were murdered. All of them were among Muhammad's closest companions. The third caliph was killed by the son of the first. The fourth caliph was killed by the fifth, who subsequently poisoned one of Muhammad's two favorite grandsons. Muhammad's other grandson was later beheaded by the sixth caliph.

Even these high profile killings barely do justice to the astonishing level of violence taking place at the time, in which tens of thousands of believers were slaughtered by companions and their children in the infighting and power struggles. Within 50 short years of Muhammad's death, even the Kaaba, which had stood for centuries under pagan religion, lay in ruins from internal Muslim war.

And that's just the fate of those within the house of Islam!

#5
Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. Within the first few decades following his death, his Arabian companions invaded and conquered Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and Zoroastrian lands

#6
Muslims continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years, checked only by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.


#7
Islam is the only religion that has to retain its membership by threatening to kill anyone who leaves. This is according to the example set by Muhammad.

#8
Islam teaches that non-Muslims are less than fully human. Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim.

#9
The Qur'an never once speaks of Allah's love for non-Muslims, but it speaks of Allah's cruelty toward and hatred of non-Muslims more than 500 times.

[eternal_spirit]

Because of his Christo-Gnostic-Judaic-quasi-Abrahamic influences, Muhammad naturally expected Christians and Jews, and more especially, those of the Arab-Jewish tribes, to see the light and convert to his new revelation. Surely, thought Muhammad, they will follow me and recognize Allah, but of course, they did not. Then as now, Jews of any kind are most averse to conversion

When these conversion efforts miserably failed, jihad became the chosen strategy. As well as ridding the newly conquered Islamic lands of the idolater-Christians, Muhammad later annihilated the Jewish-Arab tribes of North Africa in one of the first bloody Islamic Jihads. This is a characteristic of Islam.

The Ones In Submission to Allah (Muslims) must tolerate the infidels only for so long. Infidels must be given a chance to convert, but if they refuse, then conversion by conquest through holy war (jihad) is seen as not only legitimate, but demanded by the Koran.

Even so, this should be judged in context. As exemplified amply in the Old Testament, and foreshadowing the Christian Crusaders yet to come, early Islam follows an ancient [Abrahamic and later Mosaic] tradition of holy war and murder in the name of a god. Sir Richard Burton said, "And did Moses disdain to place carnal weapons in the hands of his people? The great Lawgiver of Israel sanctioned the murder in cold blood of women and child captives. Even kings were hewed in pieces before the Lord." (The Jew, The Gypsy And El Islam, 1898.)

This is a fascinating line of inquiry to follow as it leads to the conclusion that what we today know as jihad has both Mosaic and Talmudic-Jewish roots. One of many famous stories about Muhammad concerns an attempted poisoning by a Jewess. After this, not to mention the consistently unrelenting and often bitter rejections by the Jews, he finally gave up on converting them. Muslims were then told to face Mecca for prayer, where previously, they faced Jerusalem.

OTHER RITUAL SIMILARITIES

To some degree, both early Islam and early Christianity may be seen as efforts to reform, purify and unify Judaic and pre-Judaic Hebrew-Israelitish beliefs. But while the church gave up most Mosaic and later Talmudic/Pharisaic law codes, circumcision, ritual foods, and the like, Islam did not. As a matter of fact, ritual food preparations are almost identical. Muslim Halal food may be substituted when a Talmudic Kosher meal is not available, and vice versa. Both the Orthodox Jew and the devoutly observant Muslim prefer the unshaved beard, though the Islamists omit the Hasidic forelocks. Most mosques, like Orthodox synagogues, separate male and female worshippers. Women are not really regarded very highly in either faith. The Jewish Sabbath begins on Friday evening. Islam has no real Sabbath but Friday, often in the evening, became the day when a Mullah or Imam preaches a sermon and reads from the Koran. Islam, like Judaism, has no liturgical music or dance (except in Sufi mystical sects). A mosque (masjid in Arabic) and a synagogue have no statues or images. They are plain and unadorned so that worshippers are not distracted. If there is any central element other than the pulpit, it is a copy of the respective scriptures.

The scriptures of Islam and Judaism have a similar place in both religions. We have the Koran, which has ample texts refuting or abrogating ("abridging" say the Muslims) others, and the Talmud, which is notorious for splitting legalistic hairs. Since the Koranic chapters are arranged by length, there is no way to tell which text might have come first. And then we have the Hadith ("Traditions"), which function something like the Talmud, as a guide or secondary scriptures, to interpret, perhaps to get around, avoid and evade, what is found in the Koran. Looking at clergy of all religions, a Mullah is more akin to the rabbinical model, as he is, above all, a judge, an interpreter of the Sharia of Allah just as the Rabbi interprets the Torah and Talmud. Sharia Law operates like Rabbinical Talmudic Law. One submits disputes to a court of Mullahs (the word means judge) and Koranic scholars who decide the case. This is essentially the same as a Judaic beit din court in which Rabbis and scholars determine the results. Both Judaism and Islam might be best described as legal systems as much as religions.

MORE LIKENESSES

In another interesting parallel, one most often changes his or her name after converting to either Islam or Orthodox Talmudism. Practically every convert to Islam changes their name, and some Jews do the same. Proper immigrants to Israel have the right to adopt a Jewish name when moving there. There are other similarities as well, but lately on TV, some of them are uncannily mirrored in rituals and educational practices. Koranic study, like Talmudic study, is intense. If he (like Jews, women are not encouraged to study scripture) learns to recite the Koran from memory, a Muslim then bears the honorific, Hafiz. Watch the young Islamic boys at Madrassah schools in their skullcaps swaying back and forth reciting the Koran just as Jewish boys in yarmulkes recite Judaic scriptures at the Yeshiva. The Jewish swaying and nodding is often seen at the "Wailing Wall" in Jerusalem. Burial practices are similar as well. The actual rites are simple -- what we see on TV at Muslim martyr-funerals are the public parts, heavily politicized, especially the parade with the ubiquitous martyr photo (posing for this is a big deal accompanied by a celebration) plastered on big posters carried by the mourning crowd, always accompanied by a cacophony of ululating Muslim women. Muslims, as do the Orthodox Talmudist Jews, inter the body very quickly after the death.

In another likeness, both Jews and Muslims are quite exclusive, essentially regarding those who do not practice their true religion as heathens at best and cattle/goyim sub-humans at worst. One who has submitted to the purity of Islam does not make friends or confidants of such types. Strongly echoing the Talmud, the Koran says: "O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily, Allah guideth not a people unjust." (Sura 5:51)

http://www.rense.com/general81/hidst.htm

[eternal_spirit]

Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) arrived in the area now known as Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) in 711 CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era), when the Umayyad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad) dynasty sent a Muslim Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) army led by Muhammad bin Qasim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim) against the ruler of Sindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh), Raja Dahir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Dahir), this was due to the fact that Raja Dahir had given refuge to numerous Zorostrian Princes who had fled the Islamic invasion of Iran. The Arabs demanded their return to face forced conversion or death and they refused to return. Mohummad Bin Qasim's army was defeated in his first thee attempts. The army conquered the northwestern part of Indus Valley from Kashmir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir) to the Arabian Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Sea). The arrival of the Arab Muslims to the provinces of Sindh and Punjab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28Pakistan%29), along with subsequent Muslim dynasties, set the stage for the religious boundaries of South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) that would lead to the development of the modern state of Pakistan as well as forming the foundation for Islamic rule which quickly spread across much of South Asia. Following the rule of various Islamic empires, including the Ghaznavid Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaznavid_Empire), the Ghorid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_of_Ghor) kingdom, and the Delhi Sultanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Sultanate), the Mughals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughals) controlled the region from 1526 until 1739. Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) technocrats, bureaucrats, soldiers, traders, scientists, architects, teachers, theologians and Sufis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi) flocked from the rest of the Muslim world to Islamic Sultanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Sultanate) and Mughal Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire) in South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) and in the land that became Pakistan.

Sufism has a strong tradition in Pakistan. The Muslim Sufi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi) missionaries played a pivotal role in converting the millions of native people to Islam. As in other areas where Sufis introduced it, Islam to some extent syncretized with pre-Islamic influences, resulting in a religion with some traditions distinct from those of the Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) world. The Naqshbandiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqshbandiya), Qadiriya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadiriya), Chishtiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chishtiya) and Suhrawardiyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhrawardiyya) silsas havea a large following in Pakistan. Sufis whose shrines receive much national attention are Data Ganj Baksh (Ali Hajweri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Hajweri)) in Lahore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahore) (ca. eleventh century), Baha-ud-din Zakariya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha-ud-din_Zakariya) in Multan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multan) and Shahbaz Qalander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Qalander) in Sehwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sehwan)(ca. twelfth century). and Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Abdul_Latif_Bhitai) in Bhit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhit), Sindh and Rehman Baba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehman_Baba) in NWFP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NWFP).

Salafi Islam was introduced to Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) from the early conquerers of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam). It is represented by the Ahle Hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahle_Hadith) movement in India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) and Bangladesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh). A historically strong presence of the movement in Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) can be found in the cities Faisalabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisalabad), Gujranwala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujranwala) and the region Azad Kashmir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir), where most of the populations follow the movement, but also in Karachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachi), Sialkot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sialkot), Islamabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamabad) and Jhelum. Today, more and more, mainly young people are affiliated to the movement, due to a growing number of mosques and many madrassas which teach the Salafi views of Islam. The largest islamic party, the Jamiat Islami, is strongly influenced by the movement. Today, approximately 20% of the Pakistani population feel theirself appropriate to the Ahle Hadith. This makes Pakistan the country with the highest number of Salafi muslims with more than 30 million followers, even more than Saudi-Arabia

The Muslim poet-philosopher Sir Allama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allama) Muhammad Iqbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal) first proposed the idea of a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) state in northwestern South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) in his address to the Muslim League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_League) at Allahabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahabad) in 1930. His proposal referred to the four provinces of Punjab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28British_India%29), Sindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh), Balochistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_%28Pakistan%29), and the NorthWest Frontier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Frontier_Province,_Pakistan)--essentially what would became Pakistan. Iqbal's idea gave concrete form to two distinct nations in the South Asia based on religion (Islam and Hinduism) and with different historical backgrounds, social customs, cultures, and social mores.


From an Indian Sufi Muslim 'saint', demolishing the comforting myth that the mystical Sufis are somehow 'nicer' and gentler than other Muslims, the following remarks:
"The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. {NOTE: the zero sum game. I win means you lose. You win means I have lost! No concept that win/win, compromise, equality, etc. are even possible}
"One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims...
"The real purpose of levying jiziya {i.e. 'protection' money, mafia-style} on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur.
"They should constantly remain terrified and trembling.
"It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam".
Sufi saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter #163

[eternal_spirit]

population of Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims) of Pakistan in 2009 is 175,376,000[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Pakistan#cite_note-4). Pakistan has the second largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia). The majority of Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) in Pakistan are Sunnis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni), and the Shi'a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_Muslim) population is the second largest in the world after Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran), more than 50 million.

[melting dogma]

I don't get you guys saying this thread is full of shit. Yes, ES is pretty obsessed about this thing when it comes to these posts but seriously, this is reality.
I can say on my behalf that I don't want anyone to start hating or discriminating muslims but closing your eyes on this just because you haven't suffered doesn't work. Muslims are people like you and me of course but they're beliefs should not be a reason to get special treatment or trash human rights, that's just weak.

It's a belief that cannot take criticism, doesn't conform, is politically expansive, ruthless, violent and keeps it's moderate followers by the balls. It's total fascism. It's what tptb love to see!!!

Muslims are victims of islam, nuff said.

[flickflack]

population of Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims) of Pakistan in 2009 is 175,376,000[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Pakistan#cite_note-4). Pakistan has the second largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia). The majority of Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) in Pakistan are Sunnis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni), and the Shi'a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a_Muslim) population is the second largest in the world after Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran), more than 50 million.

I think it's time to question the legitimacy of Pakistan. The Jewish state of Israel has been criticized all the time by the Muslim Arabs. What is actually their justification for creating yet another Muslim state, Pakistan?

[rewind_bo]

this guy has got to be paid to do this.

Who has this much free time on their hands to copy all of the internet into one thread.

You are all about spreading hate in this world - something that really doesnt need any more power behind it.

You take one story and then try tar everyone with the same brush

[eternal_spirit]

this guy has got to be paid to do this.

:rolleyes: Oh sure I'm raking it in. :rolleyes:

Who has this much free time on their hands to copy all of the internet into one thread.

All of the internet :D

You are all about spreading hate in this world - something that really doesnt need any more power behind it.


Nah that's your paedophile Prophet Mohamhead and his offensive Jihadists genital mutilators.
You take one story and then try tar everyone with the same brush


1000+ stories (plural) PS take your sick semitic religions back to the deserts they came from.

[mr t]

Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) arrived in the area now known as Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) in 711 CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era), when the Umayyad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad) dynasty sent a Muslim Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) army led by Muhammad bin Qasim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Qasim) against the ruler of Sindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh), Raja Dahir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Dahir), this was due to the fact that Raja Dahir had given refuge to numerous Zorostrian Princes who had fled the Islamic invasion of Iran. The Arabs demanded their return to face forced conversion or death and they refused to return. Mohummad Bin Qasim's army was defeated in his first thee attempts. The army conquered the northwestern part of Indus Valley from Kashmir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir) to the Arabian Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Sea). The arrival of the Arab Muslims to the provinces of Sindh and Punjab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28Pakistan%29), along with subsequent Muslim dynasties, set the stage for the religious boundaries of South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) that would lead to the development of the modern state of Pakistan as well as forming the foundation for Islamic rule which quickly spread across much of South Asia. Following the rule of various Islamic empires, including the Ghaznavid Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaznavid_Empire), the Ghorid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_of_Ghor) kingdom, and the Delhi Sultanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Sultanate), the Mughals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughals) controlled the region from 1526 until 1739. Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) technocrats, bureaucrats, soldiers, traders, scientists, architects, teachers, theologians and Sufis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi) flocked from the rest of the Muslim world to Islamic Sultanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Sultanate) and Mughal Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire) in South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) and in the land that became Pakistan.

Sufism has a strong tradition in Pakistan. The Muslim Sufi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi) missionaries played a pivotal role in converting the millions of native people to Islam. As in other areas where Sufis introduced it, Islam to some extent syncretized with pre-Islamic influences, resulting in a religion with some traditions distinct from those of the Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab) world. The Naqshbandiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqshbandiya), Qadiriya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadiriya), Chishtiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chishtiya) and Suhrawardiyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhrawardiyya) silsas havea a large following in Pakistan. Sufis whose shrines receive much national attention are Data Ganj Baksh (Ali Hajweri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Hajweri)) in Lahore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahore) (ca. eleventh century), Baha-ud-din Zakariya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha-ud-din_Zakariya) in Multan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multan) and Shahbaz Qalander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahbaz_Qalander) in Sehwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sehwan)(ca. twelfth century). and Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Abdul_Latif_Bhitai) in Bhit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhit), Sindh and Rehman Baba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehman_Baba) in NWFP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NWFP).

Salafi Islam was introduced to Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) from the early conquerers of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam). It is represented by the Ahle Hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahle_Hadith) movement in India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) and Bangladesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh). A historically strong presence of the movement in Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) can be found in the cities Faisalabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisalabad), Gujranwala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujranwala) and the region Azad Kashmir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmir), where most of the populations follow the movement, but also in Karachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachi), Sialkot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sialkot), Islamabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamabad) and Jhelum. Today, more and more, mainly young people are affiliated to the movement, due to a growing number of mosques and many madrassas which teach the Salafi views of Islam. The largest islamic party, the Jamiat Islami, is strongly influenced by the movement. Today, approximately 20% of the Pakistani population feel theirself appropriate to the Ahle Hadith. This makes Pakistan the country with the highest number of Salafi muslims with more than 30 million followers, even more than Saudi-Arabia

The Muslim poet-philosopher Sir Allama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allama) Muhammad Iqbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal) first proposed the idea of a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) state in northwestern South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) in his address to the Muslim League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_League) at Allahabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahabad) in 1930. His proposal referred to the four provinces of Punjab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28British_India%29), Sindh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh), Balochistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_%28Pakistan%29), and the NorthWest Frontier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Frontier_Province,_Pakistan)--essentially what would became Pakistan. Iqbal's idea gave concrete form to two distinct nations in the South Asia based on religion (Islam and Hinduism) and with different historical backgrounds, social customs, cultures, and social mores.


Eternal Spirit, you are still playing your stupid childish games. I distinctly remember telling you about Islam in pakistan in another thread, yet you still twist everything, to create a lie, then you create threads to spread your lies.

I have muslim pakistani neighbours and have spoken to them at great legnth about islam in pakistan.

You are still spreading disinfo.

[mr t]

Eternal Spirit, I have provided links for you to read in other threads, regarding Christian sex abuse, you have obviusly not bothered, as it does not fit in with your agenda.

This whole paedophile mantra you keep repeating, is nothing more than your own, and christian, embarrassment at their own paedophilic tendencies.

As usual, blame the muslims for everything including all the faults of christians.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/sexabuse.htm

http://www.thinkchristian.net/index.php/2008/04/17/sex-abuse-in-the-church-not-just-a-catholic-problem/

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

[eternal_spirit]

The Appropriate Age for Marriage
Question: What is the appropriate age for men and women to marry? Some of the young ladies of today do not accept to be married to men older than them and also some of the men do not get married from anyone older than them either. We hope for a response, may Allah reward you.

Response: I advise the young ladies not to refuse a man because of his older age. Even if he be ten, twenty or thirty years older, this is not a valid excuse. The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Aisha when he was fifty-three years old and she was nine years old. Older age is not harmful. There is no problem if the woman is older than the man and there is no problem if the man is older than the woman. The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Khadijah when she was forty years old and he was twenty-five years old, before he received his first revelation. That is, she was fifteen years older than him (may Allah be pleased with her). And Aisha was married when she was a young lady of six or seven years and the Prophet (peace be upon him) consummated the marriage when she was nine years old and he was fifty-three years old.

http://web.archive.org/web/200502051...riage.html#age (http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age)

[eternal_spirit]

Quran 52:24 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/052.qmt.html#052.024) Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. Also in Surah 76:19 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/076.qmt.html#076.019) Allah promises fresh youths to Muslim men. And round about them shall go youths never altering in age; when you see them you will think them to be scattered pearls. I apologize if the above picture is disturbing. It is indeed disturbing. But it would be more disturbing if no one spoke about it. When Catholic priests molest children there is a law, there is a justice that holds them accountable. The Mullahs ARE the law, justice and the government. So they can do their shameful acts in public and who is going to stop them?

Homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death (in some cases) but pederasty is permissible.

http://news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/d/176-1/mollah.jpg

[nicolaj]

FaithFreedom.org is a really good website..to speak with loads of ex Muslims, shame they have to hide for the rest of their lives because they don't worship allah.

[mr t]

The Appropriate Age for Marriage
Question: What is the appropriate age for men and women to marry? Some of the young ladies of today do not accept to be married to men older than them and also some of the men do not get married from anyone older than them either. We hope for a response, may Allah reward you.

Response: I advise the young ladies not to refuse a man because of his older age. Even if he be ten, twenty or thirty years older, this is not a valid excuse. The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Aisha when he was fifty-three years old and she was nine years old. Older age is not harmful. There is no problem if the woman is older than the man and there is no problem if the man is older than the woman. The Prophet (peace be upon him) married Khadijah when she was forty years old and he was twenty-five years old, before he received his first revelation. That is, she was fifteen years older than him (may Allah be pleased with her). And Aisha was married when she was a young lady of six or seven years and the Prophet (peace be upon him) consummated the marriage when she was nine years old and he was fifty-three years old.

http://web.archive.org/web/200502051...riage.html#age (http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age)



university of houston:rolleyes: hardly reliable. You are clutching at straws.

[converger]

How to treat with the christianITY turncoats?

[mr t]

sex with 3 year old girls permitted in the bible and talmud

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Judaism/talmud_child_sex.htm

[eternal_spirit]

university of houston:rolleyes: hardly reliable. You are clutching at straws.
Muslim's student association (written by Muslims) with some Muslim Imans (clerics) Hadiths that's a good enough source. (infact you can't get a better source than this!") You can't pull the it's zionist disinfo nonsense card. :D

from the very same link
Footnote

1. This hadith is recorded by ibn Hibban, Ahmad, al-Tabarani and others. Without the words, "the Day of Resurrection," it is also narrated by Abu Dawud and al-Nasal. According to al-Albani, it is an authentic hadith due to its supporting chains. Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani, Irwa al Ghaleel fi Takhreej Ahadeeth Manaar al-Sabeel (Beirut: al-Maktab al Islami, 1979), vol. 6, p. 195.--JZ

Ruling Concerning Birth Control
Question: What is the ruling concerning birth control?
Response: This is a contemporary issue and many people ask about it. In the previous session of the Conference of the Leading Scholars [of Saudi Arabia], there was a study of this issue. They issued a verdict according to their opinion on this issue. In sum, they concluded that it is not allowed to take birth control pills. Allah has sanctioned the means that lead to procreation and a larger Muslim nation. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"Marry the child-bearing, loving woman for I shall outnumber the peoples by you on the Day of Resurrection."1

Another narration states at the end, "[outnumber] the prophets on the Day of Resurrection." The Muslim Nation is in need of being increased in numbers so that it may worship Allah, strive in His way, and defend the Muslims, by the will of Allah, from the plots of their enemies. It is a must to avoid such things [as birth control] and not to use them except in the cases of dire necessity. If there is a necessity, there is no harm. [This would be] for example, if the woman has some illness in her uterus or so forth that would harm her if she were to become pregnant. Then she may use such pills to the extent of her need. This is also the case if she already has many children and it would become a hardship on her to have another one soon, then she may use the birth control pills for a specific amount of time, such as one year or two years, which is the amount of time designated for breast feeding, until she reaches the stage where she would be able to raise the child properly. But if the women is taking them just so she will be free of responsibility or to be able to work or to live a comfortable life and other similar reasons why women take such pills these days, [it should be understood that] for these reasons it is not allowed to take birth control pills.



Of course to out breed ALL other religions and people.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age

[mr t]

Muslim's student association (written by Muslims) with some Muslim Imans (clerics) Hadiths that's a good enough source. (infact you can't get a better source than this!") You can't pull the it's zionist disinfo nonsense card. :D

from the very same link
Footnote

1. This hadith is recorded by ibn Hibban, Ahmad, al-Tabarani and others. Without the words, "the Day of Resurrection," it is also narrated by Abu Dawud and al-Nasal. According to al-Albani, it is an authentic hadith due to its supporting chains. Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani, Irwa al Ghaleel fi Takhreej Ahadeeth Manaar al-Sabeel (Beirut: al-Maktab al Islami, 1979), vol. 6, p. 195.--JZ

Ruling Concerning Birth Control
Question: What is the ruling concerning birth control?
Response: This is a contemporary issue and many people ask about it. In the previous session of the Conference of the Leading Scholars [of Saudi Arabia], there was a study of this issue. They issued a verdict according to their opinion on this issue. In sum, they concluded that it is not allowed to take birth control pills. Allah has sanctioned the means that lead to procreation and a larger Muslim nation. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said,

"Marry the child-bearing, loving woman for I shall outnumber the peoples by you on the Day of Resurrection."1

Another narration states at the end, "[outnumber] the prophets on the Day of Resurrection." The Muslim Nation is in need of being increased in numbers so that it may worship Allah, strive in His way, and defend the Muslims, by the will of Allah, from the plots of their enemies. It is a must to avoid such things [as birth control] and not to use them except in the cases of dire necessity. If there is a necessity, there is no harm. [This would be] for example, if the woman has some illness in her uterus or so forth that would harm her if she were to become pregnant. Then she may use such pills to the extent of her need. This is also the case if she already has many children and it would become a hardship on her to have another one soon, then she may use the birth control pills for a specific amount of time, such as one year or two years, which is the amount of time designated for breast feeding, until she reaches the stage where she would be able to raise the child properly. But if the women is taking them just so she will be free of responsibility or to be able to work or to live a comfortable life and other similar reasons why women take such pills these days, [it should be understood that] for these reasons it is not allowed to take birth control pills.



Of course to out breed ALL other religions and people.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age

funnily enough, I have never seen or read these hadiths, and I have a real physical copy of most volumes.

Bith control is allowed in islam, i went to the mosque and asked, I dont rely on fake obscure websites.

More disinfo.

Here is a christian perspective http://www.quiverfull.com/

[eternal_spirit]

funnily enough, I have never seen or read these hadiths, and I have a real physical copy of most volumes.

Bith control is allowed in islam, i went to the mosque and asked, I dont rely on fake obscure websites.

More disinfo.

Here is a christian perspective http://www.quiverfull.com/Most? Doesn't mean all.
Your word - That's not proof sorry. I gave you the word in writing from Muslims (real proof) Muslim sects disagree on certain hadiths. Just because one Mosque said so, means that is not representative of ALL of Islam.

NEXT :)
I have no idea what point you're trying to make with the link? Fact and reality states most Christians do take contraceptives in the UK.
See difference is Islam is the law religion and Government as one body in an Islamic country. The clerics - Shariah/Koran/Hadiths is the law.
And you have part Shariah laws in the UK.

UK laws is not based on the Christian Bible, BIG difference.
:D

[eternal_spirit]

BTW while your on your hate campaign against Judaism and Christianity care to post what the Koran says about them? :D




PS if you've not figured out why the Koran is so much like the Talmud think about it.

[bendoon]

sex with 3 year old girls permitted in the bible and talmud


Talmud yes, Bible no.

[let it shine]

you know...i don't even want to touch this subject. i know not much about law in muslim countries, though i have lived in saudi arabia, as a white american atheist, no less, and it really wasn't bad.

there are so many inconsistancies in this thread that i don't even know where to begin. you will see from the list that not all muslim countries follow quranic law, which in reality, is the only law that should govern an islamic individual.

as a solitary muslim man, for example, i am wholly responsible to God for my actions. ideally, the collective body that makes up the nation should adhere to God's laws, then there is no need for outside suppression by a governmental body. the setting up of panels of men who argue over what God has clearly sent down to them is completely unjustified, and they indeed will have to answer to God on the day of judgement.

just as i will.

just as you will.

so please do not judge islam for the actions of a government. can't you see that they are doing the same thing over there as they're doing in america and europe?

[eternal_spirit]

It's all about Iraq, isn't it? Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Mali and Angola and...
...and pretty much wherever Islam is taken seriously:
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who
are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,
and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty"
Qur'an, Sura 9:123

[eternal_spirit]

List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 2 Months (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm)

[nicolaj]

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/10/13/fl-judge-rules-to-send-rifqa-bary-back-to-ohio/?test=latestnews

Fla. Judge to Send Rifqa Bary Back to Ohio

Dawson ruled that Ohio does have jurisdiction over this case instead of Florida, where Bary ran away too nearly 3 months ago, after claiming that her Muslim parents, in Ohio, would harm her once they discovered she had converted to Christianity.

However, prior to signing the final order that would send Bary back, the Judge said that he would need two groups of documents:

1) Immigration papers that proved Bary's status in the United States. Bary's parents' attorneys were supposed to provided documents that showed she was here legally, but her court appointed guardian says they have failed to hand them over. Bary may be in the U.S. illegally, her side claims, and thus could be deported once transferred, unless those docs are provided. Bary's father's lawyer says they can hand over those documents "by the end of the week."

2) Proof by the state of Florida that Bary can continue her virtual schooling, and receive credit in Ohio. Florida says she can, and that they could provide the material by end of day. Bary's attorneys argued that they believed she would miss out on the semester because of her transfer. She is currently receiving straight A's.

In a nutshell, the judge has decided to send Bary back to Ohio,but is waiting for these docs to be handed over. As soon as the court gets them, she gets sent over.

Bary is expected to be placed in foster care system and to be provided with psych evaluations. Parents are also ordered to receive psych evaluations.

Bary can be in Ohio as early as this week or perhaps by an Oct 23rd follow up hearing the judge set. He did say, again, that she could be on her way to Ohio earlier if the necessary documents were provided


I pray to God she doesn't end up dead.

[antihypnosis]

Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship..

I live in Egypt, and I can assure you this is true. The punishment actually, is death. Though it isn't in the law but any Muslim who converts is killed, instantly.

What I don't understand is how can any religion(and I mean ANY, not just Islam) that allows killing,for any reason(wars, spreading the Religion, punishment, etc.) could be believed to be a word of a God that is ultimately "Good"!!


In Egypt, we have a law that allows the husband to kill his wife if he caught her cheating!!!WTf??
Moreover, when a wife catches her husband, she can't touch him, but she can kill the woman he was with!!

The way I see it, both ways a woman dies, which is something they want, it seems!

[picha]

I live in Egypt, and I can assure you this is true. The punishment actually, is death. Though it isn't in the law but any Muslim who converts is killed, instantly.

What I don't understand is how can any religion(and I mean ANY, not just Islam) that allows killing,for any reason(wars, spreading the Religion, punishment, etc.) could be believed to be a word of a God that is ultimately "Good"!!


In Egypt, we have a law that allows the husband to kill his wife if he caught her cheating!!!WTf??
Moreover, when a wife catches her husband, she can't touch him, but she can kill the woman he was with!!

The way I see it, both ways a woman dies, which is something they want, it seems!
I read than a muslim who leaves islam in egypt is considered legally dead, so if someone kills him the killer hasnt committed a crime.

[eternal_spirit]

Human Rights Watch has appealed to Saudi Arabia to halt the execution of a woman convicted of witchcraft. In a letter to King Abdullah, the rights group described the trial and conviction of Fawza Falih as a miscarriage of justice.
The illiterate woman was detained by religious police in 2005 and allegedly beaten and forced to fingerprint a confession that she could not read.
Among her accusers was a man who alleged she made him impotent.
Human Rights Watch said that Ms Falih had exhausted all her chances of appealing against her death sentence and she could only now be saved if King Abdullah intervened.
'Undefined' crime
The US-based group is asking the Saudi ruler to void Ms Falih's conviction and to bring charges against the religious police who detained her and are alleged to have mistreated her.
Its letter to King Abdullah says the woman was tried for the undefined crime of witchcraft and that her conviction was on the basis of the written statements of witnesses who said that she had bewitched them.
Human Rights Watch says the trial failed to meet the safeguards in the Saudi justice system.
The confession which the defendant was forced to fingerprint was not even read out to her, the group says.
Also Ms Falih and her representatives were not allowed to attend most of the hearings.
When an appeal court decided she should not be executed, the law courts imposed the death sentence again, arguing that it would be in the public interest.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7244579.stm

[eternal_spirit]

Fatwa Title : Magic can lead to apostasy

Fatwa Title : Punishing magicians

question
Since we know that magicians are Kaffirs and Mushriks, then if we are sure that someone is a magician and the authorities don't do anything against them.
So are we allowed to kill them if we know we can get away with it?

Fatwa

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) is His slave and Messenger.



There is evidence in the Book of Allaah, the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) and sayings of the companions may Allaah be pleased with them that magic is disbelief and that the corporal punishment determined by Islamic Law for a magician is capital punishment (i.e. death). Allaah says (which means): {Sulaiman did not disbelieve, but the devils disbelieved, teaching men magic.}[Quran 2:102].

Moreover, the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) said: "Avoid the seven destructive things [and he mentioned]…associating partners to Allaah and magic." An-Nasaa'ee may Allaah have mercy upon him reported a narration with a weak chain of narrators: "And whoever does magic, he has indeed associated partners to Allaah."

But a question is to be asked: 'Does all kinds of magic render the person who practises it disbeliever, and are all magicians absolutely disbelievers [non-Muslims]?' The scholars may Allaah have mercy upon them differed in opinion in this regard. The majority of them are of the view that whoever learns magic and practises it, he is out of the fold of Islam; this is the view of Maalik, Abu Haneefah, Ahmad and others may Allaah have mercy upon them. However, Imaam Ash-Shaafi'ee may Allaah have mercy upon him detailed this matter. If the magic contains what necessitates disbelief, then the person who does it becomes a disbeliever, like the magic of the people of Babylon, Allaah says (which means): {But they [i.e. the two angels] do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic].}[Quran 2:102]. However, if the magic does not necessitate disbelief, then it does not render a person a disbeliever unless he believes that magic is lawful.

Ash-Shanqeeti may Allaah have mercy upon him said: 'The best opinion in this regard is that this matter has to be looked at in details [as it is not all kinds of magic that renders a person a disbeliever].' Imaam An-Nawawi may Allaah have mercy upon him considers this opinion as the preponderant one.

Furthermore, the scholars may Allaah have mercy upon them differed in relation to killing the magician; should he be killed just because of practising magic or should he be killed only if his magic causes what necessitates him to be killed? Imaam Maalik and Ahmad are of the view that the magician should be killed by practising magic whatever its kind might be. However, Ash-Shaafi'ee and Abu Haneefah may Allaah have mercy upon them are of the view that the magician should not be killed just for practising magic. Moreover, Imaam Maalik, Ahmad and Ash-Shaafi'ee may Allaah have mercy upon them are of the opinion that the magician from the people of the book should not be killed because the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) did not kill Labeed Ibn Al-A'sam when the latter practised magic on him.

Therefore, it becomes clear to the questioner that it is not correct for the common people to kill the magician as this is the task of the ruler. Magic is of two kinds, there is magic that takes the person out of the fold of Islam and necessitates the magician to be killed and there is magic that does not lead to disbelief and does not necessitate the magician to be killed.

Some other scholars may Allaah have mercy upon them are of the view that the magician should not be killed just for practising magic. If it is confirmed that the magician goes out of the fold of Islam by practising magic and that he deserves the corporal punishment determined by the Islamic Law, then this punishment is not for individuals to execute it, because if it is left for the individual to carry out these punishments, there would be complete anarchy and anyone who killed a person could claim that he carried out corporal punishment on him.

Ibn 'Umar may Allaah be pleased with him said: 'Zakaat, corporal punishment determined by the Islamic Law, spoils of war, and Friday prayer are matters that concern the ruler.'

So applying corporal punishment determined by the Islamic Law is even more forbidden for a person who resides in a non-Muslim country as by doing so the non-Muslims will even increase their enmity towards Muslims if they know that the latter apply corporal punishments determined by the Islamic Law on them; therefore it is not permissible for an individual to apply the corporal punishments determined by the Islamic Law, as only the ruler can do so.

Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=90225&Option=FatwaId

[eternal_spirit]

Rulings on magic and magicians (32)



http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/FatwaCategory.php?lang=E&CatId

[eternal_spirit]

I read than a muslim who leaves islam in egypt is considered legally dead, so if someone kills him the killer hasnt committed a crime.
So therefore they are not a statistic (unaccounted for legally) invisible do not exist.

[eternal_spirit]

In India the ruthlessness of muslim invaders continued for a thousand years.

Will Durant, the famous historian summed it up like this:
“The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”
Koenraad Elst , the german historian writes in “Negation in India”




The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated. And so on.


As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention that the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate)..


But the Indian Pagans were far too numerous and never fully surrendered. What some call the Muslim period in Indian history, was in reality a continuous war of occupiers against resisters, in which the Muslim rulers were finally defeated in the 18th century.



Against these rebellious Pagans the Muslim rulers preferred to avoid total confrontation, and to accept the compromise which the (in India dominant) Hanifite school of Islamic law made possible. Alone among the four Islamic law schools, the school of Hanifa gave Muslim rulers the right not to offer the Pagans the sole choice between death and conversion, but to allow them toleration as zimmis (protected ones) living under 20 humiliating conditions, and to collect the jizya (toleration tax) from them. Normally the zimmi status was only open to Jews and Christians (and even that concession was condemned by jurists of the Hanbalite school like lbn Taymiya), which explains why these communities have survived in Muslim countries while most other religions have not.


On these conditions some of the higher Hindu castes could be found willing to collaborate, so that a more or less stable polity could be set up. Even then, the collaboration of the Rajputs with the Moghul rulers, or of the Kayasthas with the Nawab dynasty, one became a smooth arrangement when enlightened rulers like Akbar (whom orthodox Muslims consider an apostate) cancelled these humiliating conditions and the jizya tax.
It is because of Hanifite law that many Muslim rulers in India considered themselves exempted from the duty to continue the genocide on the Hindus (self-exemption for which they were persistently reprimanded by their mullahs). Moreover, the Turkish and Afghan invaders also fought each other, so they often had to ally themselves with accursed unbelievers against fellow Muslims. After the conquests, Islamic occupation gradually lost its character of a total campaign to destroy the Pagans.








Many Muslim rulers preferred to enjoy the revenue from stable and prosperous kingdoms, and were content to extract the jizya tax, and to limit their conversion effort to material incentives and support to the missionary campaigns of sufis and mullahs (in fact, for less zealous rulers, the jizya was an incentive to discourage conversions, as these would mean a loss of revenue).

[mr y]

It's all about Iraq, isn't it? Yep, it's all about Iraq and...

India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal and the Maldives and Argentina and Mali and Angola and...
...and pretty much wherever Islam is taken seriously:
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who
are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,
and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty"
Qur'an, Sura 9:123

you are a very uneducated man, especially seeing Turkey there, a secular country way before many other european countries, which granted the right to vote to women, 40 years before switzerland did, oh boy where to start, I only wish that one day you will wake up from the nightmare world painted in your eyes.
as a fact I know it is banned in the constitution and have long time punishment attached to it to make religious propaganda, to constitute religious cults, declare themselves as religious leaders. let alone sheria oh boy, before the government people would punish you for that.

If your ignorant copy paste is refering to the terrorist attacks, those have nothing to do with islam, just because someone says they are muslim does not entitle them to be muslim, infact they are the true enemies of islam.

Maide surat 32. ayet
"he who kills an innocent who did not murder another one, or created destruction upon earth, will be counted as he killed all the men on earth"

does it make sense to you? Qur'an says this, how can they be muslim????

alas I see it as my duty to explain you what actualy the surat you quoted means, it does not refer to the mundane meaning, it refers to a celestial meaning, don't feel mercy for the jinns (western world call them demons) who try to put you in mischief by whispering words of sheytan into your heart (in the sense that we all make mistakes, If I can't forgive them how may I be forgiven?), for they are envisaged in sheytan when they are in disbelief and try to seduce you out of Allah's path, show them your harshness (tree of life my friend tree of life), not the mercy your soul is created with.

for the mundane meanings of Qur'an you can't take surats or ayets one by one, you have to look at Qur'an as a whole, otherwise you would come to wrong conclusions.

[eternal_spirit]

Government of Bangladesh has published many Census documents. In 1941; 28.3 percent of the total population was minorities. Out of this, of Hindu was 11.88 million, while 588 thousand was other religious and ethnic minorities, like Buddhist, Christian and animist. As per 1991 Census; the Muslim majority increased 219.5 percent while the Hindu community increased by 4.5 percent. If usual increase rate prevailed, the number of the Hindu community would have been 32.5 million in 1991, but the actual figure is 12.5 million. It means twenty million Hindu souls are missing. (Samad, 1998). Is the Bangladeshi Government ready to give a satisfactory explanation, how those twenty million souls had vanished in fifty years? Did they vanish into thin air like a Houdini magic?

It's a long article (probably deserves it's own thread but is related to Pakistan) so here's a small sample


Bangladesh is on her way to become a ‘Talibanistan’ and the state religion Islam is ruthlessly overcoming all obstacles in its path by killing and displacing the minorities. And nobody is spared – let it be Hindus, Christians, Buddhists and Animists. It includes the eradication of the cultural memory of the group (destroying its Temples, churches, libraries, museums, street names etc.). Islamic extremists have already formed a shadow government in Bangladesh. Roads of Bangladesh are shacked with the slogan “We are Taliban and Bangla Will be Afghan”. It’s long since democracy had died in Bangladesh and the Islamic theocracy had triumphed. In the near future Bangladesh will become the highest threat before world peace and security.
Ethnic cleansing of the Minorities in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) started in 1946 with the infamous Noakhali carnage (10th October 1946). In the full moon night of Kojagari Lakshi Puja (a Hindu festival), 218 Hindus were slaughtered, over 10,000 Hindu houses were looted, more than 2000 Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam and several thousand Hindu women were raped and hundreds of Hindu temples were destroyed. The sad part is that Mr. Burrows, the then Governor of the state said that it was only natural that Hindu women would be raped by hundreds of Muslims because they are prettier than Muslim women (Roy, 2007, pp. 120, 165).
During the infamous genocide of 1971, which continued for nine months, by the then Muslim East Pakistan Army;three million Bangladeshis were slaughtered, ten million Hindus fled as refugees into India (Kennedy, 1971, pp. 6-7) and two hundred thousand women were raped (Roy, 2007, p. 298). The neighboring Muslims of the Hindu families use to mark a yellow “H” on the Hindu houses to guide the marauding army to their targets like Jewish holocaust (Schanberg, 1994). The bulk of the victims of the holocaust were Hindus about 80% followed by 15% Muslims and 5% Christians (Roy, 2007, p. 312).
Minority oppression has increased tremendously after the last National Election in Bangladesh held in October 2001. Often the Hindus, Christians and Buddhists are beaten up without reason because they are ‘Kafirs’. Political involvement is strongly opposed. Many Hindus being prevented from voting in elections, either through intimidating actual voters, or through exclusion in voter list revisions (Source: The Daily Star. January 4, 2006). Often the Hindus are warned that if they want to vote their women would be brutalized and they would be made to leave Bangladesh. A third method is physically preventing the Hindus from voting. The roadblocks are erected by Muslim League volunteers, mainly in rural areas to prevent Hindus from traveling to nearest town to vote (Roy, 2007, pp. 359, 152). The government does nothing to ensure a free and fair election.
Kidnapping, Rape of married women and children, Forced marriage of minor girls, money extortion as Jizya Tax, Forced conversion and Mass murder are day-to-day happenings. Hindu widows are often forced to kill one of her cow by her own hand, cook the beef and eat it (Roy, 2007. pp. 120, 125).
Many families were forced to migrate out of their “Homeland of generations” for physical safety. The sad part is that no end is in sight. It is because this ‘Hindu Holocaust’ is fully intentional and approved by Government, aiming to wipe out an entire group. The situation is so alarming that while describing the plight of the minorities of Bangladesh, a newspaper published an article with the heading (Source: The Economist. Nov. 29, 2003), “Bangladesh’s religious minorities: Safe only in the departure lounge“. (cited Dutta, 2005). Few prominent incidents from various sources are as follows,
Hindu women (from age 5 to 70) are often subjected to gang rape. About 200 Hindu women were gang raped by Muslims in Char Fashion, Bhola, in one night at a single spot (Source: The Daily Star, Nov.16, 2001)
The Islamic terrorists have levied Jizya taxes on the minority Christians and have told the Christians to give them their wives, sisters and daughters for sex if they failed to pay the tax. (Source: Christian Solidarity Worldwide, Dec. 13, 2001).


The Muslims have even gang-raped mother and daughter together on the same bed with the parents and children forced to watch; and they have raped mothers in front of their children (Source: The Daily Janakantha, Feb. 5, 2002; April 22, 2002).
On February 8, 1989, about 400 Muslims from the neighboring villages waged an attack on the Hindu community of the village of Sobahan, in Daudkandi, Comilla. The Muslims reminded them that, “the government has declared Islam to be the state religion, and therefore you have to either convert to Islam or leave the country.” They set ablaze every Hindu household after looting, razed the temples, and then gang-raped women. (Source: ‘Baishammer Shikar Bangladesher Hindu Sampradaya (in Bangla)’ ‘The Hindus of Bangladesh: Victim of Discrimination’, Matiur Rahman & Azizul Huq eds. 1990). (cited Dutta, 2005).
Often the commanding officer of police stations personally conducts violence against minorities. As example, Tofazzal Hossain, Officer In-Charge, “led a procession at the dead of night that ransacked two Ashrams (place of religious retreat for Hindus), a temple of Goddess Kali, and three houses at Gopalpur when seven to eight people were injured in mass beating.” (Source: The Daily Star, June 3, 2003).
On August 28, 2004 the para-militia forces, together with the local extremists, burned down 400 dwelling houses in Mahalchari, Chittagong Hill Tracts, after looting the villages, gang raping their women and destroying Buddhist temples. These indigenous Buddhist people represented 97% of the population in 1947, by 2001 they accounted for less than 50% (Source: US Department of State’s Country Report on Human Rights Practices, 2004).
The police rarely allow rape victims to press charges against their rapists. Typically, if a rape victim goes to the police and insist on action, they are given the “run around” for a few days so the rape evidence disappears. The police officers themselves will then persecute the victims. This, of course, is followed by death threats or kidnapping (Source: The Daily Janakantha, Feb. 16, 2002).
Eleven members of same family roasted alive (which includes a child of four day)
in village Southern Shadhanpur on 19 November 2003 (Bando, 2004. p. 13)
Several thousand Hindu temples are already destroyed systematically (352 in 1992 alone). Delwar Hossain Sayedee, the Jamaat leader decreed that all statues except those of Muslim worshipers should be destroyed (Baldwin, 2002). The Sanskrit and Hindu religious University (Saraswata Samaj) in Dhaka was in operation before independence of Bangladesh in 1971, has been closed after the independence. It’s land and assets was confiscated by the government of Bangladesh in a bid to wipe out Hindu educational system; whereas, millions of dollars are spent for the development of Madrassas (Roy, 2008).
Muslims are killing a Hindu in a Mosque. Vimal Patak, a Bangladeshi born Hindu was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayers were over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Vimal was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim Mullahs (priests) chanted “kill the Kafir!” (Non-Muslim). With folded hands he begged for his life and died a brutal death. (Source: Faith freedom International)
Kamala Debi lost all her family members due to barbarous attack of communalist hooligans on Oct 10, 2001. No one is alive to look after her in her old age. Once she belonged to a very wealthy business family, but now reduced to begging. (Source: Mukto-Mona)
Following tabular format is prepared to summarize and to categorize the atrocities and

http://bangladeshwatchdog1.wordpress.com/

[picha]

Government of Bangladesh has published many Census documents. In 1941; 28.3 percent of the total population was minorities. Out of this, of Hindu was 11.88 million, while 588 thousand was other religious and ethnic minorities, like Buddhist, Christian and animist. As per 1991 Census; the Muslim majority increased 219.5 percent while the Hindu community increased by 4.5 percent. If usual increase rate prevailed, the number of the Hindu community would have been 32.5 million in 1991, but the actual figure is 12.5 million. It means twenty million Hindu souls are missing. (Samad, 1998). Is the Bangladeshi Government ready to give a satisfactory explanation, how those twenty million souls had vanished in fifty years? Did they vanish into thin air like a Houdini magic?

It's a long article (probably deserves it's own thread but is related to Pakistan) so here's a small sample


Bangladesh is on her way to become a ‘Talibanistan’ and the state religion Islam is ruthlessly overcoming all obstacles in its path by killing and displacing the minorities. And nobody is spared – let it be Hindus, Christians, Buddhists and Animists. It includes the eradication of the cultural memory of the group (destroying its Temples, churches, libraries, museums, street names etc.). Islamic extremists have already formed a shadow government in Bangladesh. Roads of Bangladesh are shacked with the slogan “We are Taliban and Bangla Will be Afghan”. It’s long since democracy had died in Bangladesh and the Islamic theocracy had triumphed. In the near future Bangladesh will become the highest threat before world peace and security.
Ethnic cleansing of the Minorities in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) started in 1946 with the infamous Noakhali carnage (10th October 1946). In the full moon night of Kojagari Lakshi Puja (a Hindu festival), 218 Hindus were slaughtered, over 10,000 Hindu houses were looted, more than 2000 Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam and several thousand Hindu women were raped and hundreds of Hindu temples were destroyed. The sad part is that Mr. Burrows, the then Governor of the state said that it was only natural that Hindu women would be raped by hundreds of Muslims because they are prettier than Muslim women (Roy, 2007, pp. 120, 165).
During the infamous genocide of 1971, which continued for nine months, by the then Muslim East Pakistan Army;three million Bangladeshis were slaughtered, ten million Hindus fled as refugees into India (Kennedy, 1971, pp. 6-7) and two hundred thousand women were raped (Roy, 2007, p. 298). The neighboring Muslims of the Hindu families use to mark a yellow “H” on the Hindu houses to guide the marauding army to their targets like Jewish holocaust (Schanberg, 1994). The bulk of the victims of the holocaust were Hindus about 80% followed by 15% Muslims and 5% Christians (Roy, 2007, p. 312).
Minority oppression has increased tremendously after the last National Election in Bangladesh held in October 2001. Often the Hindus, Christians and Buddhists are beaten up without reason because they are ‘Kafirs’. Political involvement is strongly opposed. Many Hindus being prevented from voting in elections, either through intimidating actual voters, or through exclusion in voter list revisions (Source: The Daily Star. January 4, 2006). Often the Hindus are warned that if they want to vote their women would be brutalized and they would be made to leave Bangladesh. A third method is physically preventing the Hindus from voting. The roadblocks are erected by Muslim League volunteers, mainly in rural areas to prevent Hindus from traveling to nearest town to vote (Roy, 2007, pp. 359, 152). The government does nothing to ensure a free and fair election.
Kidnapping, Rape of married women and children, Forced marriage of minor girls, money extortion as Jizya Tax, Forced conversion and Mass murder are day-to-day happenings. Hindu widows are often forced to kill one of her cow by her own hand, cook the beef and eat it (Roy, 2007. pp. 120, 125).
Many families were forced to migrate out of their “Homeland of generations” for physical safety. The sad part is that no end is in sight. It is because this ‘Hindu Holocaust’ is fully intentional and approved by Government, aiming to wipe out an entire group. The situation is so alarming that while describing the plight of the minorities of Bangladesh, a newspaper published an article with the heading (Source: The Economist. Nov. 29, 2003), “Bangladesh’s religious minorities: Safe only in the departure lounge“. (cited Dutta, 2005). Few prominent incidents from various sources are as follows,
Hindu women (from age 5 to 70) are often subjected to gang rape. About 200 Hindu women were gang raped by Muslims in Char Fashion, Bhola, in one night at a single spot (Source: The Daily Star, Nov.16, 2001)
The Islamic terrorists have levied Jizya taxes on the minority Christians and have told the Christians to give them their wives, sisters and daughters for sex if they failed to pay the tax. (Source: Christian Solidarity Worldwide, Dec. 13, 2001).


The Muslims have even gang-raped mother and daughter together on the same bed with the parents and children forced to watch; and they have raped mothers in front of their children (Source: The Daily Janakantha, Feb. 5, 2002; April 22, 2002).
On February 8, 1989, about 400 Muslims from the neighboring villages waged an attack on the Hindu community of the village of Sobahan, in Daudkandi, Comilla. The Muslims reminded them that, “the government has declared Islam to be the state religion, and therefore you have to either convert to Islam or leave the country.” They set ablaze every Hindu household after looting, razed the temples, and then gang-raped women. (Source: ‘Baishammer Shikar Bangladesher Hindu Sampradaya (in Bangla)’ ‘The Hindus of Bangladesh: Victim of Discrimination’, Matiur Rahman & Azizul Huq eds. 1990). (cited Dutta, 2005).
Often the commanding officer of police stations personally conducts violence against minorities. As example, Tofazzal Hossain, Officer In-Charge, “led a procession at the dead of night that ransacked two Ashrams (place of religious retreat for Hindus), a temple of Goddess Kali, and three houses at Gopalpur when seven to eight people were injured in mass beating.” (Source: The Daily Star, June 3, 2003).
On August 28, 2004 the para-militia forces, together with the local extremists, burned down 400 dwelling houses in Mahalchari, Chittagong Hill Tracts, after looting the villages, gang raping their women and destroying Buddhist temples. These indigenous Buddhist people represented 97% of the population in 1947, by 2001 they accounted for less than 50% (Source: US Department of State’s Country Report on Human Rights Practices, 2004).
The police rarely allow rape victims to press charges against their rapists. Typically, if a rape victim goes to the police and insist on action, they are given the “run around” for a few days so the rape evidence disappears. The police officers themselves will then persecute the victims. This, of course, is followed by death threats or kidnapping (Source: The Daily Janakantha, Feb. 16, 2002).
Eleven members of same family roasted alive (which includes a child of four day)
in village Southern Shadhanpur on 19 November 2003 (Bando, 2004. p. 13)
Several thousand Hindu temples are already destroyed systematically (352 in 1992 alone). Delwar Hossain Sayedee, the Jamaat leader decreed that all statues except those of Muslim worshipers should be destroyed (Baldwin, 2002). The Sanskrit and Hindu religious University (Saraswata Samaj) in Dhaka was in operation before independence of Bangladesh in 1971, has been closed after the independence. It’s land and assets was confiscated by the government of Bangladesh in a bid to wipe out Hindu educational system; whereas, millions of dollars are spent for the development of Madrassas (Roy, 2008).
Muslims are killing a Hindu in a Mosque. Vimal Patak, a Bangladeshi born Hindu was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayers were over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Vimal was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim Mullahs (priests) chanted “kill the Kafir!” (Non-Muslim). With folded hands he begged for his life and died a brutal death. (Source: Faith freedom International)
Kamala Debi lost all her family members due to barbarous attack of communalist hooligans on Oct 10, 2001. No one is alive to look after her in her old age. Once she belonged to a very wealthy business family, but now reduced to begging. (Source: Mukto-Mona)
Following tabular format is prepared to summarize and to categorize the atrocities and

http://bangladeshwatchdog1.wordpress.com/

Im starting to think we really do need a war against islam.

[picha]

you are a very uneducated man, especially seeing Turkey there, a secular country way before many other european countries, which granted the right to vote to women, 40 years before switzerland did, oh boy where to start, I only wish that one day you will wake up from the nightmare world painted in your eyes.
as a fact I know it is banned in the constitution and have long time punishment attached to it to make religious propaganda, to constitute religious cults, declare themselves as religious leaders. let alone sheria oh boy, before the government people would punish you for that.

If your ignorant copy paste is refering to the terrorist attacks, those have nothing to do with islam, just because someone says they are muslim does not entitle them to be muslim, infact they are the true enemies of islam.

Maide surat 32. ayet
"he who kills an innocent who did not murder another one, or created destruction upon earth, will be counted as he killed all the men on earth"

does it make sense to you? Qur'an says this, how can they be muslim????

alas I see it as my duty to explain you what actualy the surat you quoted means, it does not refer to the mundane meaning, it refers to a celestial meaning, don't feel mercy for the jinns (western world call them demons) who try to put you in mischief by whispering words of sheytan into your heart (in the sense that we all make mistakes, If I can't forgive them how may I be forgiven?), for they are envisaged in sheytan when they are in disbelief and try to seduce you out of Allah's path, show them your harshness (tree of life my friend tree of life), not the mercy your soul is created with.

for the mundane meanings of Qur'an you can't take surats or ayets one by one, you have to look at Qur'an as a whole, otherwise you would come to wrong conclusions.

If ES is wrong about islam then why from ES's post above have so many muslims for so long misunderstood islam?

[let it shine]

If ES is wrong about islam then why from ES's post above have so many muslims for so long misunderstood islam?

you can ask the same of any people that claim to follow a religion and are hypocritical or even ignorant about it. it's asked all the time "how many so-called christians actually read the bible?" well, how many so-called muslims actually read the quran, understand it, and correctly apply it to their lives?

one can take anything out of context and warp it to fit an agenda. these ayats, which explain the God-given right to defend oneself during battle, are often used to give islam a bad name and to corrupt the minds of those who fall into militant groups and sects.

the quran strictly warns against visiting violence upon others unprovoked.

[picha]

you can ask the same of any people that claim to follow a religion and are hypocritical or even ignorant about it. it's asked all the time "how many so-called christians actually read the bible?" well, how many so-called muslims actually read the quran, understand it, and correctly apply it to their lives?

one can take anything out of context and warp it to fit an agenda. these ayats, which explain the God-given right to defend oneself during battle, are often used to give islam a bad name and to corrupt the minds of those who fall into militant groups and sects.

the quran strictly warns against visiting violence upon others unprovoked.

So do you disagree with the way it spread out from arabia and do you agree that the lands conquered by muslims should be returned to the previous occupiers?

[let it shine]

So do you disagree with the way it spread out from arabia and do you agree that the lands conquered by muslims should be returned to the previous occupiers?

in all honesty, it doesn't matter as what's done is done and those that have unrepentently done wrong in the name of God will have to answer for it on the day of judgement.

[dragond]

So do you disagree with the way it spread out from arabia and do you agree that the lands conquered by muslims should be returned to the previous occupiers?

so do u agree with the way christianity spread? lol at lands conquered by muslims.. DID u know that before islam or christianity spread there were actually people living in the areas u say???

So who was the original occupiers? please tell me..Jews? christians? Religion is not a race, its a belief and im suprised at most people getting these two mixed up. here is a link u might understand from, suited and catered for people like u. http://www.kidspast.com/world-history/0042-middle-eastern-civilizations.php :D


D

[mr y]

If ES is wrong about islam then why from ES's post above have so many muslims for so long misunderstood islam?

how are they muslim if they misunderstood it?
they are not muslim.

[h2pogo]

on one of these posts there is some info on jamu and cashmere..
having spent three weeks there this year i can honestly say it innacurate misleading and false..
all religeons live side by side peacefully as they have for a long long time. there are churches temples buddist and hindu..
and i met an ex muslim who was living peacefully among muslims..
the troubles there have nothing to do with releigeon.at all..
it is a classic example of the minority repressing the majority by force ,and border where there shouldnt be a border..

the people of cashmere and jamu and ladak are among the most freindly welcoming open minded aware people i have ever met.

btw eternal spirit (as far as i am aware) you never answerd a question.do you read/speak arrabic??

[dragond]

the thing is people fall for the propaganda and disinfo spread on the mainstream and repeat or in ES's case copy and paste.. Dont u get it they are trying to divide everyone and oh boy ur really deep in it..
If u were a little objective then u would also show the pictures or evidence (believe me there are loads for u to copy and paste) even articles regarding the Hindu massacres and Christianity killings..

everybody has their own version of religion, and if u add some of the BS reports on the media then u have what we see now.. HATRET towards eachother without even knowing why..


D

[scooby85]

you are such a coc* e.s.. how about you finish answering my questions before you start another bs topic?? You know the one where you lied (shock horror) and i inboxed you to asnswer me..heres the transcript to jog your memory..

'' 02-12-2009, 12:09 PM come on boy reply to my post on 'Pakistan conspiracy theories stifle debate' cos if you dont your going to look very very stupid as usual!

maybe later LOL no time tonight

I maybe stopping posting about islam for good it's obvious there's different sects and beliefs. But dont know what you get out of being a muslim or any religon tbh, but its your choice and life.

remember that? your a sly bastard, when you get caught lieing you f*ck off..

I asked you to show me where in the quran it says female circumsicion or any circumsicion is needed? as you said its an islamic trait..

I asked you where in the quran does it say killing girls is allowed?

I asked you why you use 'taqqiya' as an argument even though that is only practised by a few SHIIA MINORITY (less than 10%)

I asked you where in the quran does it allow honour killings? as you said all them things are islamic traits..

I asked you where in the quran does it say that the punishment for apostasy is death?


I also asked you what 'offensive jihad' is as you ,mentioned it in a provocative way..ok il enlighten you now, jihad means struggle. Not war or terrorism like the mainstream media teaches you.. So what is an offensive struggle? your not even making any sense these days, just as long as you (try) and make islam sound bad youve done your job, is that it?

Ive caught you lieing so many times its unreal, ur a pathological liar and when I call you that you call me a liar back but you never show me where Ive lied even though i requested you to do so... you MUST be on here to spread disinfo, whether your paid or not i dont know.. But either way you need to go out and get laid cos im guessing your still a virgin, you got to be, else you wouldnt have over 17,000 posts!!

So come on answer my questions then and prove that i lie.. you do that and Il leave you be but if you dont this will prove that you are a complete c*nt, and get your lapdog picha to help you answer the questions cos clearly you cant , you can just copy and paste off bs websites.

There are many other questions you chose you ignore cos you couldnt answer them and incase youve forgotten about that thread heres the link

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92570&page=3

I look foward to your ANSWERS (not diversions) good day ;)

p.s picha, your just as bad, you love to spread lies but when i counteract them you dont answer back..like in http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92124&page=7

[eternal_spirit]

you are such a coc* e.s.. how about you finish answering my questions before you start another bs topic?? You know the one where you lied (shock horror) and i inboxed you to asnswer me..heres the transcript to jog your memory..



remember that? your a sly bastard, when you get caught lieing you f*ck off..

I asked you to show me where in the quran it says female circumsicion or any circumsicion is needed? as you said its an islamic trait..
Wtf most of this has been posted before. But as you insistently insist.



The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The Hadith

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu-Dawud: book 41, number 5251, Hasan)

Part 2.
The Shariah

The following reference to Shariah law comes from Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. This book comes with the approval al-Azhar University.

Al-Azhar University ( الأزهر الشريف) is the leading institution for Sunni learning in the Islamic world.

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam

However the practice has a long history in the middle east and was closely related to rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the old kingdom of Egypt myth contended that blood from circumcision to guarantee the fertility realted to the river Nile, and early Egpytian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and 120 females.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.:rolleyes: It is practised on Both male an female children born to Muslim parents as well of males of any age who join the religion. Most literature regarding circumcision is found in "hadith" these are narratives, sayings and deeds of prophet and his associates recorded by Muslim scholars and biographers. Legal discussions in the hadith literature about it resemble Talmudic discussions on issues of religious importance to Jews. Additionally the language used by the arabic sources evokes the more familiar Hebrew terminology.

Like the Quran, the different reports in the Hadith literature reveal little information concerning the reasons for male circumcision among Muslims. On the other hand reports point to one's status as a Muslim, a practitioner of the faith of Allah. Similarily other traditions teach that certain Islamic practices require the participants to be circumcise Muslims. These can include coversion, pilgramage to Mecca, inheritance, even prayer.

Shiite traditions regard the practice obligatory and tend to lead toward the extreme side on the issue. One account relates that the earth cries out to god in anguish on account of the uncircumcised. Another notes that Muslims should circumcise their sons on the seventh day, if not the earth becomes ritually contaminated for 40 days. Hadith are reported that the Prophet's grandsons Hassan and Husayn were circumcised on the seventh day after their birth and Fatima herself is quoted talking about her son's circumcision on this day.

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)
I asked you where in the quran does it say killing girls is allowed?Did you can't remember:confused:

I asked you why you use 'taqqiya' as an argument even though that is only practised by a few SHIIA MINORITY (less than 10%)This forum is taqiyya central. They come (lie) and they go and sometimes come back again to tell more porkies.

I asked you where in the quran does it allow honour killings? as you said all them things are islamic traits..They do happen in Islamic countries and some Muslim's bring this culture of honour killings with them to the UK and elsewhere.

If it's not in the Koran, then ask why is it something Muslims do? If Allah is so good and those that follow Allah would they have not realised honour killings are wrong by now.

There's many horror stories about Burkas etc and women who refused to cover up which is about honour in Islam.

I asked you where in the quran does it say that the punishment for apostasy is death?I don't know (maybe it was something Muhammad said or did?) but do know Muslim's have been put to death for apostasy and some fear the consequences of leaving the religion. One sect of Islam considers another sect (apostates)

Take the Ahmadi sect (just one example) they are considered to be apostates and can be punished under blasphemy laws in Pakistan.

Sunnis call Shiites apostates and vice versa. Then there's sects within sects not all Shiites or all Sunnis agree on every part of Koran or Hadith.

You Muslims disagree with yourselves over Hadiths legitimate leaders descended from various familys connected to Muhammad.

So your own beliefs of what's Islamic or un Islamic scooby is determined upon what Islamic sect you belong to and will not be the same set of beliefs as others people of other sects.

Point is what I post is what some Muslims do and believe based on facts and reality. You blathering on calling names doesn't change the facts.
I also asked you what 'offensive jihad' is as you ,mentioned it in a provocative way..ok il enlighten you now, jihad means struggle. Not war or terrorism like the mainstream media teaches you.. So what is an offensive struggle? your not even making any sense these days, just as long as you (try) and make islam sound bad youve done your job, is that it?Offensive Jihad is the history of Islam - invade - loot - pillage - destroy - convert. You're taking of defensive Jihad.

Ive caught you lieing so many times its unreal, ur a pathological liar and when I call you that you call me a liar back but you never show me where Ive lied even though i requested you to do so... you MUST be on here to spread disinfo, whether your paid or not i dont know.. But either way you need to go out and get laid cos im guessing your still a virgin, you got to be, else you wouldnt have over 17,000 posts!!

So come on answer my questions then and prove that i lie.. you do that and Il leave you be but if you dont this will prove that you are a complete c*nt, and get your lapdog picha to help you answer the questions cos clearly you cant , you can just copy and paste off bs websites.
You blathering on calling names and making up lies about me - doesn't change the facts about Islam.

There are many other questions you chose you ignore cos you couldnt answer them and incase youve forgotten about that thread heres the link

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92570&page=3

I look foward to your ANSWERS (not diversions) good day ;)

p.s picha, your just as bad, you love to spread lies but when i counteract them you dont answer back..like in http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92124&page=7
I reply and reply again on many threads. But you lot wanna take it round in circles

[picha]

Wtf most of this has been posted before. But as you insistently insist.



The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The Hadith

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu-Dawud: book 41, number 5251, Hasan)

Part 2.
The Shariah

The following reference to Shariah law comes from Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. This book comes with the approval al-Azhar University.

Al-Azhar University ( الأزهر الشريف) is the leading institution for Sunni learning in the Islamic world.

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam

However the practice has a long history in the middle east and was closely related to rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the old kingdom of Egypt myth contended that blood from circumcision to guarantee the fertility realted to the river Nile, and early Egpytian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and 120 females.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.:rolleyes: It is practised on Both male an female children born to Muslim parents as well of males of any age who join the religion. Most literature regarding circumcision is found in "hadith" these are narratives, sayings and deeds of prophet and his associates recorded by Muslim scholars and biographers. Legal discussions in the hadith literature about it resemble Talmudic discussions on issues of religious importance to Jews. Additionally the language used by the arabic sources evokes the more familiar Hebrew terminology.

Like the Quran, the different reports in the Hadith literature reveal little information concerning the reasons for male circumcision among Muslims. On the other hand reports point to one's status as a Muslim, a practitioner of the faith of Allah. Similarily other traditions teach that certain Islamic practices require the participants to be circumcise Muslims. These can include coversion, pilgramage to Mecca, inheritance, even prayer.

Shiite traditions regard the practice obligatory and tend to lead toward the extreme side on the issue. One account relates that the earth cries out to god in anguish on account of the uncircumcised. Another notes that Muslims should circumcise their sons on the seventh day, if not the earth becomes ritually contaminated for 40 days. Hadith are reported that the Prophet's grandsons Hassan and Husayn were circumcised on the seventh day after their birth and Fatima herself is quoted talking about her son's circumcision on this day.

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)
Did you can't remember:confused:

This forum is taqiyya central. They come (lie) and they go and sometimes come back again to tell more porkies.

They do happen in Islamic countries and some Muslim's bring this culture of honour killings with them to the UK and elsewhere.

If it's not in the Koran, then ask why is it something Muslims do? If Allah is so good and those that follow Allah would they have not realised honour killings are wrong by now.

There's many horror stories about Burkas etc and women who refused to cover up which is about honour in Islam.

I don't know (maybe it was something Muhammad said or did?) but do know Muslim's have been put to death for apostasy and some fear the consequences of leaving the religion. One sect of Islam considers another sect (apostates)

Take the Ahmadi sect (just one example) they are considered to be apostates and can be punished under blasphemy laws in Pakistan.

Sunnis call Shiites apostates and vice versa. Then there's sects within sects not all Shiites or all Sunnis agree on every part of Koran or Hadith.

You Muslims disagree with yourselves over Hadiths legitimate leaders descended from various familys connected to Muhammad.

So your own beliefs of what's Islamic or un Islamic scooby is determined upon what Islamic sect you belong to and will not be the same set of beliefs as others people of other sects.

Point is what I post is what some Muslims do and believe based on facts and reality. You blathering on calling names doesn't change the facts.
Offensive Jihad is the history of Islam - invade - loot - pillage - destroy - convert. You're taking of defensive Jihad.

You blathering on calling names and making up lies about me - doesn't change the facts about Islam.

I reply and reply again on many threads. But you lot wanna take it round in circles

These are the hadith that appear to support the death penalty for apostasy:

Kill whoever changes his religion. Sahih al-Bukhari 9:84:57
The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims. Sahih al-Bukhari 9:83:17

[eternal_spirit]

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/05/31/female-genital-mutilation-is-part-of-the-sunna-of-the-prophet/
Female genital mutilation “is part of the Sunna of the Prophet”

[mightyoak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsqEyGdLh8I

Barbaric behaviour Does any other faith or culture practice this form off female mutilation? ?

[scooby85]

[QUOTE=eternal_spirit;1058479365]W

The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.



[B]The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that [COLOR=Red]Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.

End of the day the quran does not mention circumcision so how can you say muslims must do it? It is advised to do so but its not compulsary, meaning if you dont do it you are not sinning.. Just like its advised to cut your nails, shave/trim your pubic hairs etc.. So Im afraid youve lost that argument as you have twisted the reality..AGAIN.. And please dont use hadiths if the quran does not back it up, as you are well aware there are about 800+ false hadiths which are wrongly attributed to our prophet.. and many prophets are born circumcised? thats the first i heard of that, muhammad was circumcised after he got his prophethood (40 years old)

And as for the female circumsicion, well your clutching at straws.. Im a muslim and I have NEVER seen or heard of a female having that done, like i said its a west african cultural thing mainly..

look e.s Im sure you know all these stuff cos you seem fairly clued up so why do you on purpose twist things to make islam look bad when you really know it aint??
.


This forum is taqiyya central. They come (lie) and they go and sometimes come back again to tell more porkies.


well you have said i practise that so il like to see some evidence please...for the 10th time!


They do happen in Islamic countries and some Muslim's bring this culture of honour killings with them to the UK and elsewhere.

If it's not in the Koran, then ask why is it something Muslims do? If Allah is so good and those that follow Allah would they have not realised honour killings are wrong by now.

They happen in islamic countries? shit.. then that MUST mean its a part of islam??!! Well its not in the quran, theres no ifs about it, muslims dont do it, people do it to keep the honour in their family, again its CULTURAL..comprende? if muslims are doing that then i can safely say they are not practising their religion very well..

So a gang rape happens in a christian country...does that mean its a part of christianity? your way of thinking is completely retarded..


There's many horror stories about Burkas etc and women who refused to cover up which is about honour in Islam.

again burka is a cultural thing has nothing to do with islam! As far as women are concerned all they have to do is cover their hair and dress modestly.

I don't know (maybe it was something Muhammad said or did?) but do know Muslim's have been put to death for apostasy and some fear the consequences of leaving the religion. One sect of Islam considers another sect (apostates)

see you dont answer my questions do you, the question was WHERE in the QURAN does it say the punishment for apostasy is death? Oh it doesnt! so e.s plan B 'il use another sect of islam that was created only a few years ago and try that!' Fuck that shit... Use the quran, not some far fetched hadith or rumour...

Take the Ahmadi sect (just one example) they are considered to be apostates and can be punished under blasphemy laws in Pakistan.

Why take the ahmadi sect? In my eyes and every real muslims eyes, there are no sects.. its just the quran and hadiths that compliment the quran...

Sunnis call Shiites apostates and vice versa. Then there's sects within sects not all Shiites or all Sunnis agree on every part of Koran or Hadith

theres only one version of the quran and its fairly simple to understand in most parts so if there is a disagreement then obviously somesone interpreting wrongly.


So your own beliefs of what's Islamic or un Islamic scooby is determined upon what Islamic sect you belong to and will not be the same set of beliefs as others people of other sects.

Like I said I dont believe in sects, its just the quran and the complimentary hadiths.

Point is what I post is what some Muslims do and believe based on facts and reality. You blathering on calling names doesn't change the facts.
Offensive Jihad is the history of Islam - invade - loot - pillage - destroy - convert. You're taking of defensive Jihad.

But in islam you are not allowed to be offensive so how can you class those people who do that as muslims?? and what does jihad mean? i told you before, its struggle, invading, looting, destroying etc is NOT a struggle, if you read the quran youd know that those things are not allowed in islam... do you not read my posts??



I reply and reply again on many threads. But you lot wanna take it round in circles

Thats bollox es... Out of all the questions I asked you, how many have you refuted clearly?? Il tell u, NONE.

And Im still waiting for your evidence about me lying or was that another lie!! :rolleyes:

Im glad Iv shown u up for what you are, a sad pathetic liar and you cant argue with that cos this topic proves it to everyone who can read!

Or I can give you another chance, heres a quick reminder of the questions I asked...

I asked you to show me where in the quran it says female circumsicion or any circumsicion is needed? as you said its an islamic trait..

I asked you where in the quran does it say killing girls is allowed?

I asked you why you use 'taqqiya' as an argument even though that is only practised by a few SHIIA MINORITY (less than 10%)

I asked you where in the quran does it allow honour killings? as you said all them things are islamic traits..
I asked you where in the quran does it say that the punishment for apostasy is death?

Or do you now agree that these things are not mentioned in the quran?.

[scooby85]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsqEyGdLh8I

Barbaric behaviour Does any other faith or culture practice this form off female mutilation? ?

here we have another ignoranus... its not faith mate, its CULTURE

[eternal_spirit]

Why take the ahmadi sect? In my eyes and every real muslims eyes, there are no sects.. its just the quran and hadiths that compliment the quran.

You're only fooling yourself by denying reality.

[scooby85]

You're only fooling yourself by denying reality.

Im not denying reality, my reality of islam is the quran.

And thats all you can come up with???

I think its fair to say that you have been utterly embarrassed in this thread, even ripped to bits one might say :D save yourself from more embarrassment and shut up!

Your unbelievable.. all those questions ive asked and not a single clear reply.. tut tut your paymasters will be very dissapointed in you, they may even give you a pay cut, time to flood this topic with hundreds of copy and paste jobs from antiislam.com now to cover up this topic!!!

Just remember es...
Qur'an 2:256—"There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing."

"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur'an 17:81]

[scooby85]

These are the hadith that appear to support the death penalty for apostasy:

Kill whoever changes his religion. Sahih al-Bukhari 9:84:57
The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims. Sahih al-Bukhari 9:83:17

Let me tell you something... the hadith cant ever overrule the quran and if its not in the quran thats the end of that. If the quran says that religion is not compulsary then its not compulsary..simples.

Surah Al-Kafirun (the disbeliever/unbeliever)

In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate

1. Say (O' Muhammad (pbuh)) : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

[eternal_spirit]

Im not denying reality, my reality of islam is the quran.

And thats all you can come up with???

I think its fair to say that you have been utterly embarrassed in this thread, even ripped to bits one might say :D save yourself from more embarrassment and shut up!

Your unbelievable.. all those questions ive asked and not a single clear reply.. tut tut your paymasters will be very dissapointed in you, they may even give you a pay cut, time to flood this topic with hundreds of copy and paste jobs from antiislam.com now to cover up this topic!!!


Like I said you are only fooling yourself, and you are still denying there are different Islamic sects (are you serious, this must be a wind up? Have you lost all grasp of reality)
I have answered your questions yet you're still in denial

Even your prophet stated this
Muhammad claims that there will be 73 sects of Islam only one will go to Heaven the rest to hell

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also described them in the following terms: “My ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of whom will be in Hell except one group.” They said: Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah? He said: “(Those who follow) that which I and my companions follow.” This is mentioned in the hadeeth of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr which was recorded and classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi (2641). It was also classed as hasan by al-‘Iraaqi in Ahkaam al-Qur’aan (3/432), al-‘Iraaqi in Takhreej al-Ihya’ (3/284) and al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.


“And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path. This He has ordained for you that you may become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious)” [al-An’aam 6:153]

So who is the ONE GROUP (sect?)

Guess this is why certain Muslims look upon other Muslims as Kafirs or apostates because they don't believe they are following or practicing true Islam. Would explain why they've been at war with eachother almost since the beginning of Islam.

[eternal_spirit]

Let me tell you something... the hadith cant ever overrule the quran and if its not in the quran thats the end of that. If the quran says that religion is not compulsary then its not compulsary..simples.


Sharia law is Koran and Hadiths which both are used to dish out the law and come to conclusions of what actions are necesarry. Sharia law means Allah's law therfore both Koran and hadiths are used in religious law. It's the same way Judaic Talmudic law works.

[eternal_spirit]

They (different sects) can't agree who is legitimate rulers out of the 4 caliphs descendants, Shia (shiites) say it's only one Caliph who was related to Muhammad via Ali and Hussein, Sunnis believe that Caliph is not the rightful ruler, but the other 3 caliphs related to Muhammed are!

You know I am right scooby so just admit it. Anyone can do their own research to find this is true.

[eternal_spirit]

Number Name
(Full/Kunya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunya_%28Arabic%29)) Title
(Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language)/Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language))[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-9) Birth–Death
(CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era)/AH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar))[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-10) Importance Birthplace (present day country) Place of death and burial 1 Ali ibn Abu Talib (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali)
علي بن أبي طالب Abu al-Hassan
أبو الحسن Amir al-Mu'minin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_al-Mu%27minin)
(Commander of the Faithful)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) Birinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 600–661[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) 23–40[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-13) The first Imam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamah_%28Shi%27a_Twelver_doctrine%29) and the rightful successor of the Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_Muhammad) of all Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam); however, the Sunnis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam) acknowledge him as the fourth Caliph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun) as well. He holds a high position in almost all Sufi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism) Muslim orders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariqah) (Turuq); the members of these orders trace their lineage to Muhammad through him.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) Mecca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) Assassinated by Abd-al-Rahman ibn Muljam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd-al-Rahman_ibn_Muljam), a Kharijite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites) in Kufa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufa), who slashed him with a poisoned sword.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-14) Buried at the Imam Ali Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Ali_Mosque) in Najaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najaf), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq). 2 Hasan ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_ibn_Ali)
الحسن بن علي Abu Muhammad
أبو محمد al-Mujtaba Ikinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 624–680[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Hasan_in_Britannica-15) 3–50[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-16) He was the eldest surviving grandson of Muhammad through Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimah). Hasan succeeded his father as the caliph in Kufa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufa), and on the basis of peace treaty with Muawiyah I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muawiyah_I), he relinquished control of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) following a reign of seven months.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Hasan_ibn_Ali_Iranica-17) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Hasan_in_Britannica-15) According to Shia sources, He was poisoned by his wife in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) on the orders of the Caliph Muawiyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muawiyah_I).[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-18) Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 3 Husayn ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husayn_ibn_Ali)
الحسین بن علي Abu Abdillah
أبو عبدالله Sayed al-Shuhada Ūçüncü Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 626–680[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19) 4–61[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-20) He was a grandson of Muhammad. Husayn opposed the validity of Caliph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph) Yazid I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazid_I). As a result, he and his family were later killed in the Battle of Karbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala) by Yazid's forces. After this incident, the commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_of_Muharram) has become a central ritual in Shia identity.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_ibn_Ali_Iranica-21) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19) Killed and then beheaded at the Battle of Karbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala).[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19) Buried at the Imam Husayn Shrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Husayn_Shrine) in Karbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karbala), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq). 4 Ali ibn al-Hussein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayn_al-Abidin)
(Zayn al-Abidin)
علي بن الحسین Abu Muhammad
أبو محمد al-Sajjad, Zain al-Abedin [23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22)
Dorduncu Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 658-9[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22) – 712[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) 38[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22)–95[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) Author of prayers in Al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Sahifa_al-Sajjadiyya), which is known as "The Psalm of the Household of the Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Bayt)."[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22) According to most Shia scholars, he was poisoned on the order of Caliph al-Walid I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Walid_I) in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 5 Muhammad ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Baqir)
(Muhammad al-Baqir)
محمد بن علي Abu Ja'far
أبو جعفر al-Baqir al-Ulum
(splitting open knowledge)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24)
Besinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 677–732[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24) 57–114[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24) Sunni and Shia sources both describe him as one of the early and most eminent legal scholars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faqih), teaching many students during his tenure.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-25) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24) According to some Shia scholars, he was poisoned by Ibrahim ibn Walid ibn 'Abdallah in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) on the order of Caliph Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisham_ibn_Abd_al-Malik).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23). Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 6 Ja'far ibn Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27far_al-Sadiq)
(Ja'far al-Sadiq)
جعفر بن محمد Abu Abdillah
أبو عبدالله al-Sadiq[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26)
(the Trustworthy)
Altinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 702–765[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26) 83–148[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26) Established the Ja'fari jurisprudence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27fari_jurisprudence) and developed the Theology of Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_Twelvers). He instructed many scholars in different fields, including Abū Ḥanīfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%AB_%E1%B8%A4an%C4%ABfa) and Malik ibn Anas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas) in fiqh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh), Wasil ibn Ata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasil_ibn_Ata) and Hisham ibn Hakam (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hisham_ibn_Hakam&action=edit&redlink=1) in Islamic theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam), and Geber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geber) in science and alchemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy).[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26)[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Strasburg-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-28) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26) According to Shia sources, he was poisoned in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) on the order of Caliph Al-Mansur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mansur).[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26). Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 7 Musa ibn Ja'far (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_al-Kadhim)
(Musa al-Kadhim)
موسی بن جعفر Abu al-Hassan I
أبو الحسن الاول[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza_in_Iranica-29) al-Kazim[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) Yedinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 744–799[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) 128–183[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) Leader of the Shia community during the schism of Ismaili (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismailism) and other branches after the death of the former Imam, Ja'far al-Sadiq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27far_al-Sadiq).[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-31) He established the network of agents who collected khums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums) in the Shia community of the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East) and the Greater Khorasan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Khorasan).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-32) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) Imprisoned and poisoned in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) on the order of Caliph Harun al-Rashid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harun_al-Rashid). Buried in the Al-Kadhimiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kadhimiya_Mosque) mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque) in Kadhimiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadhimiya), Baghdad.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) 8 Ali ibn Musa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ar-Ridha)
(Ali ar-Ridha)
علي بن موسی Abu al-Hassan II
أبو الحسن الثانی[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza_in_Iranica-29) al-Rida, Reza[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) Sekizinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 765–817[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) 148–203[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) Made crown-prince by Caliph Al-Ma'mun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma%27mun), and famous for his discussions with both Muslim and non-Muslim religious scholars.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) According to Shia sources, he was poisoned in Mashhad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashhad), Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) on the order of Caliph Al-Ma'mun. Buried in the Imam Reza shrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Reza_shrine) in Mashad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashad).[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) 9 Muhammad ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Taqi)
(Muhammad al-Taqi)
محمد بن علي Abu Ja'far
أبو جعفر al-Taqi, al-Jawad[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) Dokuzuncu Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 810–835[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) 195–220[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) Famous for his generosity and piety in the face of persecution by the Abbasid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate) caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate). Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) Poisoned by his wife, Al-Ma'mun's daughter, in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) on the order of Caliph Al-Mu'tasim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tasim). Buried in the Al-Kadhimiya Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kadhimiya_Mosque) in Kadhimiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadhimiya), Baghdad.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) 10 Ali ibn Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Hadi)
(Ali al-Hadi)
علي بن محمد Abu al-Hassan III
أبو الحسن الثالث[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) al-Hadi, al-Naqi[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) Onuncu Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 827–868[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) 212–254[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) Strengthened the network of deputies (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vakil&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Shia community. He sent them instructions, and received in turn financial contributions of the faithful from the khums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums) and religious vows.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) Surayya, a village near Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) According to Shia sources, he was poisoned in Samarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) on the order of Caliph Al-Mu'tazz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tazz).[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-36) Buried in the Al-Askari Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Askari_Mosque) in Samarra. 11 Hassan ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_al-Askari)
(Hasan al-Askari)
الحسن بن علي Abu Muhammad
أبو محمد al-Askari[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) Onbirinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 846–874[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) 232–260[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) For most of his life, the Abbasid Caliph, Al-Mu'tamid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tamid), placed restrictions on him after the death of his father. Repression of the Shi'ite population was particularly high at the time due to their large size and growing power.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-taba209-38) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) According to Shia, he was poisoned on the order of Caliph Al-Mu'tamid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tamid) in Samarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq). Buried in Al-Askari Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Askari_Mosque) in Samarra.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-taba209-38) 12 Muhammad ibn al-Hassan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi)
(Muhammad al-Mahdi)
محمد بن الحسن Abu al-Qasim
أبو القاسم al-Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi), Hidden Imam, al-Hujjah[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah_in_Britannica-39) Onikinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 868–unknown[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40) 255–unknown[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40) According to Twelver doctrine, he is the current Imam and the promised Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi), a messianic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah) figure who will return with Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ). He will reestablish the rightful governance of Islam and replete the earth with justice and peace.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-41) Samarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40) According to Shia doctrine, he has been living in The Occultation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation) since 872, and will continue as long as God wills it.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40)

[eternal_spirit]

Note the previous post is Islamic infighting between Muslims. Many of Muhammad's relatives where killed and did some killing of other relatives etc too. One big happy family eh. :eek:

[scooby85]

Like I said you are only fooling yourself, and you are still denying there are different Islamic sects (are you serious, this must be a wind up? Have you lost all grasp of reality)
I have answered your questions yet you're still in denial

Even your prophet stated this
Muhammad claims that there will be 73 sects of Islam only one will go to Heaven the rest to hell

So who is the ONE GROUP (sect?)

Guess this is why certain Muslims look upon other Muslims as Kafirs or apostates because they don't believe they are following or practicing true Islam. Would explain why they've been at war with each other almost since the beginning of Islam.

This is exactly what i mean by you being clueless.. what does kafir mean? DISBELIEVER. So how can another sect that still believes in god be a disbeliever? answer me that. Even a christian or a jew is not a kafir as they have a belief in god.
Im not denying there are sects, im saying I dont have a particular sect, i just follow the quran. The one sect that is correct is the sect that follows the quran, quite simple really aint it..

The people who war between themselves are wrong to do so as ONLY god can judge people. people should not judge one another.. But if they do thats not islams problem, thats people being stupid.

And how have you answered my questions???????????????? I want a direct and to the point answers, not diversions, which i must say your very good at.

[scooby85]

Sharia law is Koran and Hadiths which both are used to dish out the law and come to conclusions of what actions are necesarry. Sharia law means Allah's law therfore both Koran and hadiths are used in religious law. It's the same way Judaic Talmudic law works.

But hadiths are only used as law if the quran backs it up.

[scooby85]

They (different sects) can't agree who is legitimate rulers out of the 4 caliphs descendants, Shia (shiites) say it's only one Caliph who was related to Muhammad via Ali and Hussein, Sunnis believe that Caliph is not the rightful ruler, but the other 3 caliphs related to Muhammed are!

You know I am right scooby so just admit it. Anyone can do their own research to find this is true.

Iv proved you wrong again and again how many more times!!!

I want direct answers, heres the questions for the third time

I asked you to show me where in the quran it says female circumsicion or any circumsicion is needed? as you said its an islamic trait..

I asked you where in the quran does it say killing girls is allowed?

I asked you why you use 'taqqiya' as an argument even though that is only practised by a few SHIIA MINORITY (less than 10%)

I asked you where in the quran does it allow honour killings? as you said all them things are islamic traits..

I asked you where in the quran does it say that the punishment for apostasy is death?

notice how i say 'in the quran' and not 'on www.islamiclies,com'?

[scooby85]

Number Name
(Full/Kunya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunya_%28Arabic%29)) Title
(Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language)/Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language))[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-9) Birth–Death
(CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era)/AH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar))[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-10) Importance Birthplace (present day country) Place of death and burial 1 Ali ibn Abu Talib (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali)
علي بن أبي طالب Abu al-Hassan
أبو الحسن Amir al-Mu'minin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_al-Mu%27minin)
(Commander of the Faithful)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) Birinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 600–661[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) 23–40[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-13) The first Imam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamah_%28Shi%27a_Twelver_doctrine%29) and the rightful successor of the Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_Muhammad) of all Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam); however, the Sunnis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam) acknowledge him as the fourth Caliph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun) as well. He holds a high position in almost all Sufi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism) Muslim orders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariqah) (Turuq); the members of these orders trace their lineage to Muhammad through him.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) Mecca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11) Assassinated by Abd-al-Rahman ibn Muljam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd-al-Rahman_ibn_Muljam), a Kharijite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites) in Kufa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufa), who slashed him with a poisoned sword.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_in_Britannica-11)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-14) Buried at the Imam Ali Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Ali_Mosque) in Najaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najaf), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq). 2 Hasan ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_ibn_Ali)
الحسن بن علي Abu Muhammad
أبو محمد al-Mujtaba Ikinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 624–680[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Hasan_in_Britannica-15) 3–50[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-16) He was the eldest surviving grandson of Muhammad through Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimah). Hasan succeeded his father as the caliph in Kufa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufa), and on the basis of peace treaty with Muawiyah I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muawiyah_I), he relinquished control of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) following a reign of seven months.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Hasan_ibn_Ali_Iranica-17) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Hasan_in_Britannica-15) According to Shia sources, He was poisoned by his wife in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) on the orders of the Caliph Muawiyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muawiyah_I).[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-18) Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 3 Husayn ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husayn_ibn_Ali)
الحسین بن علي Abu Abdillah
أبو عبدالله Sayed al-Shuhada Ūçüncü Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 626–680[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19) 4–61[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-20) He was a grandson of Muhammad. Husayn opposed the validity of Caliph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph) Yazid I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazid_I). As a result, he and his family were later killed in the Battle of Karbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala) by Yazid's forces. After this incident, the commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_of_Muharram) has become a central ritual in Shia identity.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_ibn_Ali_Iranica-21) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19) Killed and then beheaded at the Battle of Karbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala).[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Husayn_in_Britannica-19) Buried at the Imam Husayn Shrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Husayn_Shrine) in Karbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karbala), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq). 4 Ali ibn al-Hussein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayn_al-Abidin)
(Zayn al-Abidin)
علي بن الحسین Abu Muhammad
أبو محمد al-Sajjad, Zain al-Abedin [23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22)
Dorduncu Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 658-9[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22) – 712[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) 38[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22)–95[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) Author of prayers in Al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Sahifa_al-Sajjadiyya), which is known as "The Psalm of the Household of the Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Bayt)."[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_ibn_Husayn_in_Iranica-22) According to most Shia scholars, he was poisoned on the order of Caliph al-Walid I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Walid_I) in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23) Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 5 Muhammad ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Baqir)
(Muhammad al-Baqir)
محمد بن علي Abu Ja'far
أبو جعفر al-Baqir al-Ulum
(splitting open knowledge)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24)
Besinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 677–732[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24) 57–114[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24) Sunni and Shia sources both describe him as one of the early and most eminent legal scholars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faqih), teaching many students during his tenure.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-25) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Baqir_in_Iranica-24) According to some Shia scholars, he was poisoned by Ibrahim ibn Walid ibn 'Abdallah in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) on the order of Caliph Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisham_ibn_Abd_al-Malik).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Tabatabae-23). Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 6 Ja'far ibn Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27far_al-Sadiq)
(Ja'far al-Sadiq)
جعفر بن محمد Abu Abdillah
أبو عبدالله al-Sadiq[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26)
(the Trustworthy)
Altinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 702–765[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26) 83–148[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26) Established the Ja'fari jurisprudence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27fari_jurisprudence) and developed the Theology of Shia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_Twelvers). He instructed many scholars in different fields, including Abū Ḥanīfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%AB_%E1%B8%A4an%C4%ABfa) and Malik ibn Anas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas) in fiqh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh), Wasil ibn Ata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasil_ibn_Ata) and Hisham ibn Hakam (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hisham_ibn_Hakam&action=edit&redlink=1) in Islamic theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam), and Geber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geber) in science and alchemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy).[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26)[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Strasburg-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-28) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26) According to Shia sources, he was poisoned in Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) on the order of Caliph Al-Mansur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mansur).[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Jafar_al-Sadiq-26). Buried in Jannat al-Baqi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannat_al-Baqi). 7 Musa ibn Ja'far (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_al-Kadhim)
(Musa al-Kadhim)
موسی بن جعفر Abu al-Hassan I
أبو الحسن الاول[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza_in_Iranica-29) al-Kazim[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) Yedinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 744–799[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) 128–183[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) Leader of the Shia community during the schism of Ismaili (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismailism) and other branches after the death of the former Imam, Ja'far al-Sadiq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ja%27far_al-Sadiq).[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-31) He established the network of agents who collected khums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums) in the Shia community of the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East) and the Greater Khorasan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Khorasan).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-32) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) Imprisoned and poisoned in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) on the order of Caliph Harun al-Rashid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harun_al-Rashid). Buried in the Al-Kadhimiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kadhimiya_Mosque) mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque) in Kadhimiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadhimiya), Baghdad.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Musa_al-Kazim-30) 8 Ali ibn Musa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ar-Ridha)
(Ali ar-Ridha)
علي بن موسی Abu al-Hassan II
أبو الحسن الثانی[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza_in_Iranica-29) al-Rida, Reza[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) Sekizinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 765–817[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) 148–203[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) Made crown-prince by Caliph Al-Ma'mun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma%27mun), and famous for his discussions with both Muslim and non-Muslim religious scholars.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) According to Shia sources, he was poisoned in Mashhad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashhad), Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) on the order of Caliph Al-Ma'mun. Buried in the Imam Reza shrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Reza_shrine) in Mashad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashad).[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Reza-33) 9 Muhammad ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Taqi)
(Muhammad al-Taqi)
محمد بن علي Abu Ja'far
أبو جعفر al-Taqi, al-Jawad[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) Dokuzuncu Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 810–835[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) 195–220[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) Famous for his generosity and piety in the face of persecution by the Abbasid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate) caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate). Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) Poisoned by his wife, Al-Ma'mun's daughter, in Baghdad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) on the order of Caliph Al-Mu'tasim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tasim). Buried in the Al-Kadhimiya Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kadhimiya_Mosque) in Kadhimiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadhimiya), Baghdad.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Muhammad_al-Taqi-34) 10 Ali ibn Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Hadi)
(Ali al-Hadi)
علي بن محمد Abu al-Hassan III
أبو الحسن الثالث[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) al-Hadi, al-Naqi[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) Onuncu Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 827–868[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) 212–254[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) Strengthened the network of deputies (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vakil&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Shia community. He sent them instructions, and received in turn financial contributions of the faithful from the khums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums) and religious vows.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) Surayya, a village near Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Ali_al-Hadi_in_Iranica-35) According to Shia sources, he was poisoned in Samarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) on the order of Caliph Al-Mu'tazz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tazz).[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-36) Buried in the Al-Askari Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Askari_Mosque) in Samarra. 11 Hassan ibn Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasan_al-Askari)
(Hasan al-Askari)
الحسن بن علي Abu Muhammad
أبو محمد al-Askari[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) Onbirinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 846–874[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) 232–260[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) For most of his life, the Abbasid Caliph, Al-Mu'tamid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tamid), placed restrictions on him after the death of his father. Repression of the Shi'ite population was particularly high at the time due to their large size and growing power.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-taba209-38) Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina), Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Askari_in_Iranica-37) According to Shia, he was poisoned on the order of Caliph Al-Mu'tamid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mu%27tamid) in Samarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq). Buried in Al-Askari Mosque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Askari_Mosque) in Samarra.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-taba209-38) 12 Muhammad ibn al-Hassan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi)
(Muhammad al-Mahdi)
محمد بن الحسن Abu al-Qasim
أبو القاسم al-Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi), Hidden Imam, al-Hujjah[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah_in_Britannica-39) Onikinci Ali[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-Alevi-12) 868–unknown[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40) 255–unknown[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40) According to Twelver doctrine, he is the current Imam and the promised Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi), a messianic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah) figure who will return with Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ). He will reestablish the rightful governance of Islam and replete the earth with justice and peace.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-41) Samarra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40) According to Shia doctrine, he has been living in The Occultation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation) since 872, and will continue as long as God wills it.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers#cite_note-al-Hujjah-40)


Haha just like i said, when you cant answer any questions you just copy and paste! But I will still gladly clear this up for you...

Firstly most of them were killed by the yazidis, who were kafirs, they follow a being called shaytan and they class muslims as their enemy. They did not agree with truth and righteousness and in order to stop/slow down the truth spreading they killed his family members. I havnt explained it very well but this video will once again prove that you are a lieing c*nt and a disinfo agent..AGAIN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWs7tXt5hA&feature=player_embedded#

[scooby85]

Note the previous post is Islamic infighting between Muslims. Many of Muhammad's relatives where killed and did some killing of other relatives etc too. One big happy family eh. :eek:

Stop lying!! deary me!!! Show me one proof of where a family member of the prophet killed another?

[eternal_spirit]

Stop lying!! deary me!!! Show me one proof of where a family member of the prophet killed another?
I just did show you. Now you should stop lying. I'll be back later.


There is an abundance of fatwas (religious edicts) by Muslim authorities inciting to genocide and suicide attacks against Christians and Jews. All these fatwas are based on the Koran and Hadeeth. (Tells you that this is not a recent thing it's always been this way)

Ali Gom’a, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he says, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.” He also compares non-Muslims to apes and pigs, not only the Jews.

Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University also approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This what the Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth.”




Yousef Al Qaradhawi, the spiritual leader of the fundamentalist organization, the Muslim Brothers, urged on Al Jazeera TV (Jan. 9, 2009) Muslims to kill the Jews, not only in Israel but also worldwide. He added, “No peace can be made between us (Muslims) and the non-believers. This what our holy book says. This what Allah says.”
Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdulaziz Bin Abdullah Bin Mohammed al Sheikh said on Iqra’ TV channel, “Killing producers who show women unveiled is legal.”
The Saudi Sheikh Saleh Al-Lehadan, head of the Supreme Judiciary Council, told Al Watan daily, (March 25, 2008) “After getting rid of the Jews in our Arab land, we must turn to the Christians. They have three options: either they convert to Islam, or leave, or pay Jizia (protection taxes). Further, there is not such a thing as Shiites, Sufis, etc. There are only Sunnis. All these sects must renounce their pagan beliefs and return to Sunna, the right path of Islam.”


Zaghlul Al Najjar rejoices in the rise and spread of Islam across the globe. He writes in the Egyptian daily Al Ahram (Nov. 14, 2008), “Islam now is everywhere. Gorgeous mosques are built everywhere in the heart of Europe, in Rome and Cologne. The number of Muslims all over the world is also rising. More than 20 million Muslims live now in Europe. Alone in Germany there are 3.5. Demographers estimate that the majority of citizens in Germany will be Muslims in the year 2050. Two decades ago very few women wore the Hijab (headscarf). Now you can see them everywhere. Sooner or later, Islam will be in control of the whole world. This time, we don’t need to fight the infidel West with our troops as we did at the gates of Vienna. This time we’ll infiltrate the West and convert it to Islam, willy-nilly.”

Dr. Sami Alrabaa, an ex-Muslim, is a professor of Sociology and an Arab/Muslim culture specialist. Before moving to Germany he taught at Kuwait University, King Saud University, and Michigan State University. Dr. Sami Alrabaa can be reached atsamialrabaa@yahoo.com

Dr. Sami Alrabaa most recent columns (http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/members/8066/Dr.%20Sami%20Alrabaa/)

[eternal_spirit]

Scooby? What started the rift with the Jews? Does it go back to the time of Muhammad and is it to do with Jews mistreatment of the Arab tribes and later mistreatment of Muslims by Jews? anything to do with the Talmud and it's laws?

Because if you know the history of the Jews they pissed alot of people off in many countries and where thrown out of mnay countries for many centuries (people don/didn't dislike them without reason)

I would really like a Muslims opinion on this issue? It's not a trick question but would help clear this up (seems no one want's to talk about it and I have tried before)

[eternal_spirit]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8F8D3000005DC-601_468x309.jpg

Outcry: Muslims carrying banners declaring 'Islam will dominate the world' protest against the visit of Mr Wilders to the UK

Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D93BF4000005DC-172_468x326.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D93BF4000005DC-172_468x326_popup.jpg) Brandishing banners saying 'Shariah is the true solution, freedom go to hell', Muslim protesters met the Dutch MP outside the Houses of Parliament


They held up placards reading 'Shariah for the Netherlands (http://explore.dailymail.co.uk/locations/countries/the_netherlands)' and 'Islam will be superior'.
Protester Abu Mousa said: 'What he says deserves the death sentence under Islam.'
Sayful Islam, said he wanted to see Mr Wilders 'tried in an Islamic court' for 'insulting the Prophet'.

He added: 'We need to put this dog on a leash.'



Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8FECF000005DC-318_468x380.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8FECF000005DC-318_468x380_popup.jpg)

Anger: When Mr Wilders was banned from entering Britain in February it was feared that his outspoken views on Islam could spark religious violence


Doesn't take much (remember the Danish Cartoons of Muhammad)

[mightyoak]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8F8D3000005DC-601_468x309.jpg

Outcry: Muslims carrying banners declaring 'Islam will dominate the world' protest against the visit of Mr Wilders to the UK

Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D93BF4000005DC-172_468x326.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D93BF4000005DC-172_468x326_popup.jpg) Brandishing banners saying 'Shariah is the true solution, freedom go to hell', Muslim protesters met the Dutch MP outside the Houses of Parliament


They held up placards reading 'Shariah for the Netherlands (http://explore.dailymail.co.uk/locations/countries/the_netherlands)' and 'Islam will be superior'.
Protester Abu Mousa said: 'What he says deserves the death sentence under Islam.'
Sayful Islam, said he wanted to see Mr Wilders 'tried in an Islamic court' for 'insulting the Prophet'.

He added: 'We need to put this dog on a leash.'



Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8FECF000005DC-318_468x380.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8FECF000005DC-318_468x380_popup.jpg)

Anger: When Mr Wilders was banned from entering Britain in February it was feared that his outspoken views on Islam could spark religious violence


Doesn't take much (remember the Danish Cartoons of Muhammad)


Some call it a religion off peace?

Yeah right, Like this persicuted lot off Christains pakistani have found i suppose
http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/march-in-support-of-pakistani

[lightgiver]

I wonder what has happened to ESs all you need is love thread,

who do you love I wonder ,yourself by the sounds of it,:p

maybe you need a all you need is hate thread.

then you can just be like the people in the pictures.

BTW ES the people in the picture do not represent Islam.

I would say MI5 stooges(or some other instigators) well the ringleaders anyway,must be getting paid a good whack.

You know what intelligence agency's can be like.

[lightgiver]

Scooby? What started the rift with the Jews? Does it go back to the time of Muhammad and is it to do with Jews mistreatment of the Arab tribes and later mistreatment of Muslims by Jews? anything to do with the Talmud and it's laws?

Because if you know the history of the Jews they pissed alot of people off in many countries and where thrown out of mnay countries for many centuries (people don/didn't dislike them without reason)

I would really like a Muslims opinion on this issue? It's not a trick question but would help clear this up (seems no one want's to talk about it and I have tried before)

I would say people are under massive mind control ;)

[drhemp]

Cock sucking comment removed. My what terrible spellers some people are.

[eternal_spirit]

These are the hadith that appear to support the death penalty for apostasy:

Kill whoever changes his religion. Sahih al-Bukhari 9:84:57
The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims. Sahih al-Bukhari 9:83:17
Thanks

[mightyoak]

I wonder what has happened to ESs all you need is love thread,

who do you love I wonder ,yourself by the sounds of it,

maybe you need a all you need is hate thread.

then you can just be like the people in the pictures.

BTW ES the people in the picture do not represent Islam.

I would say MI5 stooges well the ringleaders anyway,must be getting paid a good whack.

Is this not the true hate Tho......??????????

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.” Surah 8:13-17.

“Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the scripture, until they pay jiziah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Surah 9:29

“Fight them, until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s” Surah 193

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is on of them.” Surah 5:51 & 3:28

“Kill the mushrikeen (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush”. Surah 9:5

“O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you; and know that Allah is with those who are believers.” Surah 9:123

“And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every king of) worship is for Allah (alone).” Surah 2:193

“Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties for (the price) that theirs shall be the paradise. They fight in Allah cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Koran.” Surah 9:111

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him” Surah 3:85
“O prophet, urge the believers to fight.” Surah 8:65

“The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a great torment is theirs in the hereafter.” Surah 5:33

“Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight-Jihad in Allah’s cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them). Thus you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the unbelievers till they embrace Islam.” Surah 47:4

Mohammad said (Hadith):
“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” 9:57

“The best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and his apostle, is to participate in Jihad and Allah’s cause.” 1:25

”No Muslim should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel.” 9:50


“After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women”. 7:33


“O who you believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allah has forgiven that, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most forbearing.” 5:101

“Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers” 5:102

.

As a proof, I cited surahs (verses) from the Koran. I did NOT add one word of mine, and NO translation of mine.

Yes i admit a copy and paste
Reason One Gets sick off writing the same shite these days and never getting answers. However when i see ES being accused off that which i feel he is not, that being Hatred. Then i will defend his right To bring is valued knowledge to this forums.
Now is not! The (Above CnP) the Hatred you speak off, in all reality

And please no Takiyya here Thankyou .....

[eternal_spirit]

Good post Mightyoak. I have provided hadiths and quotes from the Koran, Authorative Islamic Imam's (clerics/Scholars) quotes, video evidence of Muslim's preaching hate etc time after time on these threads - I don't have time to wade through all my posts again to repost the same info to back up everything I say. When it's often the same people who ask the same questions I've already answered.

People can read my own posts I type with my own words and then go do some research if they want absolute proof of what I post (or they can wade through all the threads on Islam on this forum to verify my information.

[mightyoak]

I have visited these forums Many times ES And find the religious section very interesting Amongst others. Although i do not post often I read and cross reference views put forward And hopefully come across the truth along the way. Your views are most refreshing And have found them to be enlightening to say the very least.

Its up to others to do the same But sadly that is not always the case. Some choose to ignore the facts on Islamic teachings They might find that to there dis-advantage When perhaps OUR heads might be smited as unbelievers(((((“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.” Surah 8:13-17.)))) And they are living in a state off Dhimmitude paying the jeziya And being persecuted until they convert to the Religion off peace lol don't think so eh

Anyway please carry on posting Your message is coming across well . But then again Truth always prevails in the end.....

Would any follower off Mohammad care to explain The grievances here Perpetrated against Christan's in Pakistan http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/march-in-support-of-pakistani OR WOULD THAT BE TO MUCH TO ASK ??????????????????

[picha]

I have visited these forums Many times ES And find the religious section very interesting Amongst others. Although i do not post often I read and cross reference views put forward And hopefully come across the truth along the way. Your views are most refreshing And have found them to be enlightening to say the very least.

Its up to others to do the same But sadly that is not always the case. Some choose to ignore the facts on Islamic teachings They might find that to there dis-advantage When perhaps OUR heads might be smited as unbelievers(((((“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.” Surah 8:13-17.)))) And they are living in a state off Dhimmitude paying the jeziya And being persecuted until they convert to the Religion off peace lol don't think so eh

Anyway please carry on posting Your message is coming across well . But then again Truth always prevails in the end.....

Would any follower off Mohammad care to explain The grievances here Perpetrated against Christan's in Pakistan http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/march-in-support-of-pakistani OR WOULD THAT BE TO MUCH TO ASK ??????????????????
I think theyre still pissed off about the crusades even though they were the muslims fault anyway.

[scooby85]

Is this not the true hate Tho......??????????

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.” Surah 8:13-17.

“Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the scripture, until they pay jiziah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Surah 9:29

“Fight them, until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s” Surah 193

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is on of them.” Surah 5:51 & 3:28

“Kill the mushrikeen (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush”. Surah 9:5

“O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you; and know that Allah is with those who are believers.” Surah 9:123

“And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every king of) worship is for Allah (alone).” Surah 2:193

“Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties for (the price) that theirs shall be the paradise. They fight in Allah cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Koran.” Surah 9:111

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him” Surah 3:85
“O prophet, urge the believers to fight.” Surah 8:65

“The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a great torment is theirs in the hereafter.” Surah 5:33

“Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight-Jihad in Allah’s cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them). Thus you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the unbelievers till they embrace Islam.” Surah 47:4

Mohammad said (Hadith):
“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” 9:57 (NOT TRUE AS THE QURAN DOES NOT MENTION THIS)

“The best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and his apostle, is to participate in Jihad and Allah’s cause.” 1:25 (PARTICIPATE IN JIHAD, whats wrong with that? it literally means participate in a struggle..could mean anything!)

”No Muslim should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel.” 9:50


“After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women”. 7:33


“O who you believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allah has forgiven that, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most forbearing.” 5:101

“Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers” 5:102

.



So youve nit picked a few verses, bet you didnt read the whole paragraph so how can you even start to understand the context of the sentence? Most of these verses you have quoted come from the madinah era, when islam was under fire from many sects, so its a bit understandable that god portrays his wrath in those verses.. and its not just islam that advocates this sort of violence, christianity and judaism do so too, even more so but seeing as its cool to slate those 'terrorists' we'll just stick to islam :rolleyes:

The bold ones are hadiths that ive hilighted... like i said please dont use hadiths if they dont compliment the quran, there are hundreds of false hadiths made up by the enemies of islam after the death of the prophet.

Firstly let me make this clear, a disbeliever is not a jew or a christian as they are the people of the book and as muslims we must treat them kindly BUT we cant get too close to them. Those sentences with the hell fire and violence is meant for people who do not believe in god and TURN against islam, that is when you are an enemy. Its punishment for AFTER they die so if you as a disbeliever dont believe in god then why should it bother you that you will spend your whole life in the hereafter burning in fire? it shouldnt cos you dont believe there is a hell!

If someone does not provoke the fight we cant attack first, the only time we can attack is when we are under attack.


I have no problems with you as i believe you have misunderstood those verses, where as es intentionally lies. I would advise you to read those verses in full to understand the context of the verses

[scooby85]

I just did show you. Now you should stop lying. I'll be back later.


There is an abundance of fatwas (religious edicts) by Muslim authorities inciting to genocide and suicide attacks against Christians and Jews. All these fatwas are based on the Koran and Hadeeth. (Tells you that this is not a recent thing it's always been this way)

Ali Gom’a, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he says, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.” He also compares non-Muslims to apes and pigs, not only the Jews.

Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University also approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This what the Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth.”




Yousef Al Qaradhawi, the spiritual leader of the fundamentalist organization, the Muslim Brothers, urged on Al Jazeera TV (Jan. 9, 2009) Muslims to kill the Jews, not only in Israel but also worldwide. He added, “No peace can be made between us (Muslims) and the non-believers. This what our holy book says. This what Allah says.”
Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdulaziz Bin Abdullah Bin Mohammed al Sheikh said on Iqra’ TV channel, “Killing producers who show women unveiled is legal.”
The Saudi Sheikh Saleh Al-Lehadan, head of the Supreme Judiciary Council, told Al Watan daily, (March 25, 2008) “After getting rid of the Jews in our Arab land, we must turn to the Christians. They have three options: either they convert to Islam, or leave, or pay Jizia (protection taxes). Further, there is not such a thing as Shiites, Sufis, etc. There are only Sunnis. All these sects must renounce their pagan beliefs and return to Sunna, the right path of Islam.”


Zaghlul Al Najjar rejoices in the rise and spread of Islam across the globe. He writes in the Egyptian daily Al Ahram (Nov. 14, 2008), “Islam now is everywhere. Gorgeous mosques are built everywhere in the heart of Europe, in Rome and Cologne. The number of Muslims all over the world is also rising. More than 20 million Muslims live now in Europe. Alone in Germany there are 3.5. Demographers estimate that the majority of citizens in Germany will be Muslims in the year 2050. Two decades ago very few women wore the Hijab (headscarf). Now you can see them everywhere. Sooner or later, Islam will be in control of the whole world. This time, we don’t need to fight the infidel West with our troops as we did at the gates of Vienna. This time we’ll infiltrate the West and convert it to Islam, willy-nilly.”

Dr. Sami Alrabaa, an ex-Muslim, is a professor of Sociology and an Arab/Muslim culture specialist. Before moving to Germany he taught at Kuwait University, King Saud University, and Michigan State University. Dr. Sami Alrabaa can be reached atsamialrabaa@yahoo.com

Dr. Sami Alrabaa most recent columns (http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/members/8066/Dr.%20Sami%20Alrabaa/)

No actually you didnt show me where a relative of the prophet killed another relative, you cant so copy and paste some more bullshit, in the usual es diversionary way

I dont give a flying fuck what Ali Gom’a, Dr. Sami Alrabaa, Zaghlul Al Najjar or Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi say, some of these bastards are worse than kaffirs, just because they have a muslim name it does not mean they represent islam. By the sound of it they represent the extreme side of islam (which i dont agree to unless its in the state of war) End of the day the second to last surah in the quran should clear up what muslims should do to a kafir


Say: “O Disbelievers! I shall not worship that which you worship. Nor will you ever worship that which I worship. Nor did I worship that which you worshipped. Nor did you ever worship that which I have been worshipping. (109·1-5)

To you your religion and to me mine. (109·6)

[scooby85]

Its up to others to do the same But sadly that is not always the case. Some choose to ignore the facts on Islamic teachings They might find that to there dis-advantage When perhaps OUR heads might be smited as unbelievers(((((“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.” Surah 8:13-17.)))) And they are living in a state off Dhimmitude paying the jeziya And being persecuted until they convert to the Religion off peace lol don't think so eh



Its more peaceful than other religions, if a disbeliever paid a jizya tax he would be spared his life and be protected!! Most other religions wouldnt even give them that chance!!

[eternal_spirit]

Scooby was it defensive Jihad when Islam, invaded half the planet? which continued for many centuries after the madinah era.

I know it was not it was offensive Jihad as requested by Muhammad and his descendants the Caliphate etc.

So why try twist deny and ignore the true history? It doesn't work on the educated, only the ignorant who don't know the facts.

[scooby85]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8F8D3000005DC-601_468x309.jpg

Outcry: Muslims carrying banners declaring 'Islam will dominate the world' protest against the visit of Mr Wilders to the UK

Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D93BF4000005DC-172_468x326.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D93BF4000005DC-172_468x326_popup.jpg) Brandishing banners saying 'Shariah is the true solution, freedom go to hell', Muslim protesters met the Dutch MP outside the Houses of Parliament


They held up placards reading 'Shariah for the Netherlands (http://explore.dailymail.co.uk/locations/countries/the_netherlands)' and 'Islam will be superior'.
Protester Abu Mousa said: 'What he says deserves the death sentence under Islam.'
Sayful Islam, said he wanted to see Mr Wilders 'tried in an Islamic court' for 'insulting the Prophet'.

He added: 'We need to put this dog on a leash.'



Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8FECF000005DC-318_468x380.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/16/article-1220830-06D8FECF000005DC-318_468x380_popup.jpg)

Anger: When Mr Wilders was banned from entering Britain in February it was feared that his outspoken views on Islam could spark religious violence


Doesn't take much (remember the Danish Cartoons of Muhammad)


Oh yes well done for being the twat of the day.. many placards, one font, what does that tell you dickhead? It tells normal people that it was done by the same person/group and according to you it represents the whole Islamic world.. :rolleyes: your hatred/obsession with islam is sad, very very sad.

Your a pathological liar and very sly, everytime i call you a liar you call me a liar back but you NEVER show proof even tho i have asked you many times, you twist the truth, spread hate and disinfo intentionally, you dont reply back to my posts when you cant answer, you just divert the subject. Its clear for people to see when they read this topic what im talking about, let me ask you something, did you ever get raped by a 'muslim' man at any stage of your life? serious question... this hatred has got to come from somewhere, esp when you have to resort to blatant lies, you should see a psychiatrist, in the mean time fuck off and stop wasting my time

[scooby85]

Scooby was it defensive Jihad when Islam, invaded half the planet? which continued for many centuries after the madinah era.

I know it was not it was offensive Jihad as requested by Muhammad and his descendants the Caliphate etc.

So why try twist deny and ignore the true history? It doesn't work on the educated, only the ignorant who don't know the facts.

islam started in saudi, when it started it had many enemies who attacked islam, so yes it was a defensive jihad. Islam doesnt need to start unjust wars to convert people, when people read the quran with an open mind most will automatically submit to the will of god, hundreds of thousands of people willfully convert to islam around the world, no one needs to brainwash them...and the enemies are still carrying on, look at iraq, pakistan, afghanistan, palestine, Lebanon, sudan soon to be iran, syria etc notice how they are all muslims countries and none of them started the wars first, all of them in defense, Islam is the way and the illuminati know this that is why they are trying to destroy it but they will not succeed. like i said before, good v evil and its not long before the anti christ makes an appearance and tries to destroy islam even further

ok let me ask you was it a defensive jihad when christianity ruled half the world or when judaism first spread?

and yes islam will rule the world one day but not by force, the word of god not mine :) just remember the truth will always prevail in the end

[picha]

Its more peaceful than other religions, if a disbeliever paid a jizya tax he would be spared his life and be protected!! Most other religions wouldnt even give them that chance!!

Yeah those horrible nasty buddhists would tear them to pieces.

[mightyoak]

Interesting article

http://www.hvk.org/articles/1003/48.html

Extract;
Tribal. Religious, ethnic, political and cultural divisions within the Muslim world stimulate violence between Muslims. They also promote violence between Muslims and non-Muslims because different Muslim groups and governments, such as those of Saudi Arabia and Iran, compete with each other in promoting their own brand of Islam and have supported Muslim groups fighting non-Muslims from Bosnia to the Philippines. If one or two states dominated the Muslim world, which has not been the case since the end of the Ottoman Empire, less violence would occur among Muslims and, probably between Muslims and non-Muslims.

[eternal_spirit]

Everything scooby tries to make out I am is actually a description of his own tactics and lies used on these threads. I think he is a shiite Muslim so taqiyya is valid.

Which sect of Shiite do you belong to Scooby?

[mightyoak]

Anyone care to enlighten the readers on this yet btw.

http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/march-in-support-of-pakistani

Or is that no comment ????????????

[mightyoak]

Things like this example ;;

http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/march-in-support-of-pakistani

extract ;

Five months after the brutal attacks on Christians in Gojra, it is no easier for Christians to come to terms with the tragedy, especially the burning alive of six innocent believers.with kerosene

Kerosene ffs
Don't suppose that was around when the quran was written? Is this the hellfire tho off which the prophet spoke

[mightyoak]

Shed any light on these events scoob ?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6962191.ece




Extract;;

Last week 100 Christian leaders and politicians of all religions held an emergency meeting just before fresh violence broke out in the northern city of Mosul, with attacks on churches and Christian schools. On Tuesday a baby was killed and 40 people, including schoolchildren, were injured in three simultaneous bombings. Two days ago a Christian man was shot dead as he travelled to work




Is this the most forgiving protection off the people off the book off which you speak off here...... Originally Posted by scooby85
Its more peaceful than other religions, if a disbeliever paid a jizya tax he would be spared his life and be protected!!

[lightgiver]

Is this not the true hate Tho......??????????

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.” Surah 8:13-17.

“Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the people of the scripture, until they pay jiziah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Surah 9:29

“Fight them, until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s” Surah 193

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is on of them.” Surah 5:51 & 3:28

“Kill the mushrikeen (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush”. Surah 9:5

“O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you; and know that Allah is with those who are believers.” Surah 9:123

“And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every king of) worship is for Allah (alone).” Surah 2:193

“Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties for (the price) that theirs shall be the paradise. They fight in Allah cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Koran.” Surah 9:111

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him” Surah 3:85
“O prophet, urge the believers to fight.” Surah 8:65

“The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a great torment is theirs in the hereafter.” Surah 5:33

“Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight-Jihad in Allah’s cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them). Thus you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the unbelievers till they embrace Islam.” Surah 47:4

Mohammad said (Hadith):
“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” 9:57

“The best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and his apostle, is to participate in Jihad and Allah’s cause.” 1:25

”No Muslim should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel.” 9:50


“After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women”. 7:33


“O who you believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if you ask about them while the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you. Allah has forgiven that, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most forbearing.” 5:101

“Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers” 5:102

.

As a proof, I cited surahs (verses) from the Koran. I did NOT add one word of mine, and NO translation of mine.

Yes i admit a copy and paste
Reason One Gets sick off writing the same shite these days and never getting answers. However when i see ES being accused off that which i feel he is not, that being Hatred. Then i will defend his right To bring is valued knowledge to this forums.
Now is not! The (Above CnP) the Hatred you speak off, in all reality

And please no Takiyya here Thankyou .....

No true Muslim behaves in such a manner my friend.:)

Its extreme,they may think they know Islam how sadly wrong they are.

I put it down to gullibility , Massive mind control and shit stirrers.

You try and fight fire with water.

If you fight fire with fire like ES does you just end up with a bigger fire.

I wouldn't take literally what every words says in the Koran,some of it is open to interpretation,have you ever read a real Koran,not a internet one?

I have a feeling ES is a Extremist.

He does a lot of whining but never any real action.

If Gog and Magog kicks off I wonder where winder ES will be,in the front line eh,NOT.:rolleyes:

He will leave it to someone else to fight his battles.

[picha]

No true Muslim behaves in such a manner my friend.:)

Its extreme,they may think they know Islam how sadly wrong they are.

I put it down to gullibility , Massive mind control and shit stirrers.

You try and fight fire with water.

If you fight fire with fire like ES does you just end up with a bigger fire.

I wouldn't take literally what every words says in the Koran,some of it is open to interpretation,have you ever read a real Koran,not a internet one?

I have a feeling ES is a Extremist.

He does a lot of whining but never any real action.

If Gog and Magog kicks off I wonder where winder ES will be,in the front line eh,NOT.:rolleyes:

He will leave it to someone else to fight his battles.

Does that mean mohammed wasnt a real muslim then?

[scooby85]

Yeah those horrible nasty buddhists would tear them to pieces.

I dont consider Buddhism to be a 'real' religion as it was man made.

[scooby85]

Shed any light on these events scoob ?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6962191.ece




Extract;;

Last week 100 Christian leaders and politicians of all religions held an emergency meeting just before fresh violence broke out in the northern city of Mosul, with attacks on churches and Christian schools. On Tuesday a baby was killed and 40 people, including schoolchildren, were injured in three simultaneous bombings. Two days ago a Christian man was shot dead as he travelled to work




Is this the most forgiving protection off the people off the book off which you speak off here...... Originally Posted by scooby85
Its more peaceful than other religions, if a disbeliever paid a jizya tax he would be spared his life and be protected!!


You can post all you like geez but the fact of the matter is what these people are doing are not condoned by islam, by the sounds of things these people are innocent and have done nothing wrong so they should not be treated that way.

You have to look at the root of the religion, not look at one person or a group to see what islam is really about. Anyone can be a muslim and do evil stuff but it doesnt mean its a part of islam.

[scooby85]

Everything scooby tries to make out I am is actually a description of his own tactics and lies used on these threads. I think he is a shiite Muslim so taqiyya is valid.

Which sect of Shiite do you belong to Scooby?

Im not going to argue with that cos i dont need to, people just need to read this thread to see who the wank*r is..

and get it into your thick skull... Im neither a shiite or a sunni or a buddisht or a hindu or a jew or a pagan or a satanists, im a muslim. Which makes it 'haram' (prohibited) for me to lie, yes i may make mistakes but i will never lie intentionally to fool people...unlike SOME people.

[scooby85]

Does that mean mohammed wasnt a real muslim then?

How do you know what muhammad was really like? where you there? or do you just believe stuff you read on the net? youve never even read the quran properly so who are you to judge??

That just shows your ignorance.

[mightyoak]

You can post all you like geez but the fact of the matter is what these people are doing are not condoned by islam, by the sounds of things these people are innocent and have done nothing wrong so they should not be treated that way.

You have to look at the root of the religion, not look at one person or a group to see what islam is really about. Anyone can be a muslim and do evil stuff but it doesnt mean its a part of islam.

I Think you'll find the perpetrators are following there own interpretations off your prophets teachings and the hadiths are condoning such..There are many examples that i could post again But cant really be bothered.

You say that this is not condoned and as so would bring your religion into disrepute. SO where is the out and out utter disgust AT burning innocent Christian children from yourself or any other so-called moderate Muslims. None is ever forthcoming. Only statement is , they are not following a true Islamic path ...... Same with all atrocities Is this perhaps something to do with the Ummah ? Your an apologist off your own misguided That sucks geez !

[zarah]

Dont you think that wanting the whole world to have the same islamic culture is quite a cuntish thing to want? There is a reason why it is largely confined to certain regions of the world and that is because the races who inhabit those regions have low enough IQs to believe it.

I thought you'd stooped as low as you'd dare, but nope...I see you're more than happy to venture to the depths*rme*

I also don't see you post in anything much other than anti-Islam topics. Aren't you interested in anything else? I'm genuinely intrigued.

Why do you continue to mesh the words Islam and culture in the same sentence? Islam is a faith within many different cultures, as well you know.

It's certainly not confined to 'certain regions of the world', Muslims can be found all over the globe. There are 3 races in the world, and none of them can be classed as primarily Muslim or Arab and many, many important inventions originate from the Middle East, which is known as the 'cradle fo civilisation.' Would it not be helpful to your argument if you spent less time hating a concept about which you embrassingly lack in knowledge and spent some time learning about it? At least this way your dislike can be based on an informed opinion.

[zarah]

Im not going to argue with that cos i dont need to, people just need to read this thread to see who the wank*r is..

and get it into your thick skull... Im neither a shiite or a sunni or a buddisht or a hindu or a jew or a pagan or a satanists, im a muslim. Which makes it 'haram' (prohibited) for me to lie, yes i may make mistakes but i will never lie intentionally to fool people...unlike SOME people.

I think this is where so many people get it wrong. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim. It means submission to God's will...you can't submit to a Sunni version of God's will, or a Shia's version of God's will. It detracts from the teaching of the religion which is inherently a faith which promotes a harmonious and community spirited fraternity.

[zarah]

I Think you'll find the perpetrators are following there own interpretations off your prophets teachings and the hadiths are condoning such..There are many examples that i could post again But cant really be bothered.

You say that this is not condoned and as so would bring your religion into disrepute. SO where is the out and out utter disgust AT burning innocent Christian children from yourself or any other so-called moderate Muslims. None is ever forthcoming. Only statement is , they are not following a true Islamic path ...... Same with all atrocities Is this perhaps something to do with the Ummah ? Your an apologist off your own misguided That sucks geez !


I would suggest all monothesic religions contain elements which interpret their own versions of the tenets of their faith which supports their individual ideology.

Ummm...what burning of Christian children?

Where is your 'out and out utter disgust' and the burning of innocent Muslim children? In Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Palestine children are being blown to small pieces by Christian and Jewish 'soldiers'. Well? How will you absolve the murderers of these Muslim deaths? Will you perhaps tell us that the killings are 'collateral damage'? Or 'in defense'? Or something else which is simple, useless rhetoric? What is it with this bloody constant Muslim bashing in this place? Why should anyone who is Muslim have to persuade you that they believe murder to be wrong? That isn't a precursor to any debate I've seen you involved in which doesn't castigate Islam, so why it is here?

[lightgiver]

i dont consider buddhism to be a 'real' religion as it was man made.

bull

[zarah]

bull

I'd argue that Buddism, from my understanding, is a philosophy as well as a religion, which is an extremely positive concept. Buddah refined the beliefs of Hinduism, so I suppose it could be argued that Buddism is 'man-made' in the sense that it didn't naturally evolve from Hinduism, Buddah constructed it from Hindusim. Sikhism evolved in much the same way, I think.

[eternal_spirit]

Muslims have a low IQ? funny that seeing as in history the muslims have contributed more to the world then you ever will..

And no its not a cuntish thing, we as muslims believe its the truth and the truth will prevail one day, like i said it will not be by force, just trust me on that :)
That's not true anything Islam claims to have invented was either stolen from other cultures that they invaded and conquered. Or by Muslims living with other cultures and absorbing that Knowledge from them.

It's either by force (real history) or by those living as Dhimmies under Dhimmitude. Many eventually convert to Islam because as None Muslims living under Sharia they where/are often treated badly (plus having to pay (Jizha tax) so end up living in poverty and oppression.

Are often not allowed to repair their Churches/Temples/Synagogues.

For all these reasons is what makes them convert to Islam, because they know it's the path of least resistance and better than living under dhimmitude. So they are coerced by Muslim oppression to convert, or if they have a chance migrate to neigbouring countries (One example the Bangladesh Hindus into India)

a belief-system that has an unbroken record of aggression and subjugation of Infidels, wherever those Infidels may have been conquered, and whether or not they were Christians, or Jews, or Zoroastrians, or Buddhists, or Hindus, or Confucians, or who knowwwhat -- they were Unbelievers, and either deserved to be killed, or converted, or forced to live as dhimmmis.
Originally Posted by picha http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058490471#post1058490471)
Dont you think that wanting the whole world to have the same islamic culture is quite a cuntish thing to want?

[zarah]

That's not true anything Islam claims to have invented was either stolen from other cultures that they invaded and conquered. Or by Muslims living with other cultures and absorbing that Knowledge from them.

It's either by force (real history) or by those living as Dhimmies under Dhimmitude. Many eventually convert to Islam because as None Muslims living under Sharia they where/are often treated badly (plus having to pay (Jizha tax) so end up living in poverty and oppression.

Are often not allowed to repair their Churches/Temples/Synagogues.

For all these reasons is what makes them convert to Islam, because they know it's the path of least resistance and better than living under dhimmitude. So they are coerced by Muslim oppression to convert, or if they have a chance migrate to neigbouring countries (One example the Bangladesh Hindus into India)

Source?

[eternal_spirit]

The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169). "… To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).
According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them. Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad) against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes. It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), (seems the only get out clause is to pay money to save your lives?) short of which war will be declared against them. [14]


I think some of you need to re read the first page (where this quote is from) again and if you can't find what you're looking for scroll through the thread. The same questions have been answered several times on this and other threads.

[lightgiver]

I'd argue that Buddism, from my understanding, is a philosophy as well as a religion, which is an extremely positive concept. Buddah refined the beliefs of Hinduism, so I suppose it could be argued that Buddism is 'man-made' in the sense that it didn't naturally evolve from Hinduism, Buddah constructed it from Hindusim. Sikhism evolved in much the same way, I think.

All religions are the same.

Its just the You know who have confused everyone,


The Anunnaki control religion and education and make certain that true knowledge is very difficult to acquire or impart. They use propaganda and disinformation to confuse, program and control the people they enslave. It is important that misinformation and disinformation are mixed with enough truth to fool people, otherwise, they would be useless tools. Religious inquisitions show just how thoroughly ignorance was once imposed upon the people. Today, such inquisitions are accomplished more subtly by sceptics and disinformation agents who use tools like scorn and ridicule. Further, those who dare to go against the system are persecuted.

I sometimes feel people forget the Forum they are on ;)

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/anunnaki/anu_17.htm

[lightgiver]

Zarah click on link :)

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95638

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058492664#post1058492664

[zarah]

Zarah click on link :)

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95638

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058492664#post1058492664

I'm reading the most interesting articles on mind control at the minute (whilst sitting in bed with a cocoa, wearing reading glasses and feeling and looking about 60 :p)

I've saved both links and have a gander when Ive read my articles. Thanks.

Im not in defense of any type of organised relgion - I would absolutely agree that it's an element of mind control mixed with social engineering, but I believe the fundamentals of all faiths have origins in a concept of spirituality I don't yet understand.

[octopusrex]

Where's Mullah Nasrudin when you need him?

[zarah]

The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169).....

I think some of you need to re read the first page (where this quote is from) again and if you can't find what you're looking for scroll through the thread. The same questions have been answered several times on this and other threads.






So, where is your source for the statement made in your previous post to this one, in which you claim that inventions were stolen from other people and didn't orginate from the Middle East.

I think some of you should do a little more unbiased reading from numerous sources, and not rely on obvious anti-Islamic websites, which skew the evidence for their own (and the CIA's) purpose.

[scooby85]

All religions are the same.

Its just the You know who have confused everyone,


The Anunnaki control religion and education and make certain that true knowledge is very difficult to acquire or impart. They use propaganda and disinformation to confuse, program and control the people they enslave. It is important that misinformation and disinformation are mixed with enough truth to fool people, otherwise, they would be useless tools. Religious inquisitions show just how thoroughly ignorance was once imposed upon the people. Today, such inquisitions are accomplished more subtly by sceptics and disinformation agents who use tools like scorn and ridicule. Further, those who dare to go against the system are persecuted.

I sometimes feel people forget the Forum they are on ;)

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/anunnaki/anu_17.htm

This is where me and you differ my friend.. I believe that the 3 abrahamic religions are the religions of god. Judaism came first, then christianity both of which were taken over and corrupted by the ptb for their own evil agendas. Thats the reason for the third and last religion islam, the religion that has been protected by god and the quran cant ever be corrupted. If you look back in history, when judaism and christianity came about those followers were not known by as being jewish or christians, they were known as muslims. literal translation being 'those who submit to god'.

These 2 religions especially in their original state, carry the same message as islam.

17:77 (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways.

One thing that does confuse me though is the fact some people on here are prepared to believe that some sort of alien race created us and are making us work to find gold for them which they can use to protect their planet yet they cant get their head around that there is a god!! lol

[scooby85]

I Think you'll find the perpetrators are following there own interpretations off your prophets teachings and the hadiths are condoning such..There are many examples that i could post again But cant really be bothered.

You say that this is not condoned and as so would bring your religion into disrepute. SO where is the out and out utter disgust AT burning innocent Christian children from yourself or any other so-called moderate Muslims. None is ever forthcoming. Only statement is , they are not following a true Islamic path ...... Same with all atrocities Is this perhaps something to do with the Ummah ? Your an apologist off your own misguided That sucks geez !

burning innocent children?? who did that? if thats the case then obviously its a sick act and has no place for it anywhere on earth! I have said many times before, if a hadith does not compliment the quran then dont take that hadith seriously as there are many false hadiths.

You sort of answered your own question, these people who are doing these are not following islam properly, if they are doing it because thats the way they are interpreting islam wrongly, then they will get their punishment when they leave here (earth). But 99.9% of muslims do not want violence/bloodshed etc me included, however if there was an unjust war in my land against me then of course i will defend myself/property/family...

[scooby85]

bull

Are you being serious?? Even some scholars and Buddhists dont class Buddhism as a religion let alone a religion from god!!

[scooby85]

[QUOTE=eternal_spirit;1058492702]That's not true anything Islam claims to have invented was either stolen from other cultures that they invaded and conquered. Or by Muslims living with other cultures and absorbing that Knowledge from them.

Which anti islamic site did u get that from? or did u make it up?


It's either by force (real history) or by those living as Dhimmies under Dhimmitude. Many eventually convert to Islam because as None Muslims living under Sharia they where/are often treated badly (plus having to pay (Jizha tax) so end up living in poverty and oppression.

And whats wrong with that? People of other religions/cultures at the time didnt give you any choice they would just kill you there and then but with this its giving the person a choice to choose the right path or still stay in their land (under protection) for a tax.. cant be fairer than that and its not just the non muslims that pay tax, believe it or not every muslim has a duty to pay tax, which will help the needy (zakat) a beautiful system dont you think?

And about people converting, Im not talking about in the muslims country, just look at the country where you live, how many people do you know or have heard that have converted to islam, a few im guessing, its the same in most of the western world, no forcing or brain washing here my old mucker, they chose they truth will their OWN will. In my local mosque I know of about at least 20 english people who have converted in the last year.


For all these reasons is what makes them convert to Islam, because they know it's the path of least resistance and better than living under dhimmitude. So they are coerced by Muslim oppression to convert, or if they have a chance migrate to neigbouring countries (One example the Bangladesh Hindus into India)

I dont agree with u on that but that cant be the case for the ten of thousands of people converting in the west surely?

[scooby85]

Source?

dont ask him for sources zarah! Cos its usually the same websites he gets his bs info from and lets just say they are far from neutral!

[eternal_spirit]

More Taqiyya and Kitman from the Muslims (same as all these threads)



c. Dar al-Islam and dar al-harb: the House of Islam and the House of War
The violent injunctions of the Quran and the violent precedents set by Muhammad set the tone for the Islamic view of politics and of world history. Islamic scholarship divides the world into two spheres of influence, the House of Islam (dar al-Islam) and the House of War (dar al-harb). Islam means submission, and so the House of Islam includes those nations that have submitted to Islamic rule, which is to say those nations ruled by Sharia law.

The rest of the world, which has not accepted Sharia law and so is not in a state of submission, exists in a state of rebellion or war with the will of Allah. It is incumbent on dar al-Islam to make war upon dar al-harb until such time that all nations submit to the will of Allah and accept Sharia law.

Islam's message to the non-Muslim world is the same now as it was in the time of Muhammad and throughout history: submit or be conquered.

The only times since Muhammad when dar al-Islam was not actively at war with dar al-harb were when the Muslim world was too weak or divided to make war effectively.

But the lulls in the ongoing war that the House of Islam has declared against the House of War do not indicate a forsaking of jihad as a principle but reflect a change in strategic factors.

It is acceptable for Muslim nations to declare hudna, or truce, at times when the infidel nations are too powerful for open warfare to make sense. Jihad is not a collective suicide pact even while "killing and being killed" (Sura 9:111) is encouraged on an individual level. For the past few hundred years, the Muslim world has been too politically fragmented and technologically inferior to pose a major threat to the West. But that is changing.

i. Taqiyya -- Religious Deception
Due to the state of war between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb, reuses de guerre, i.e., systematic lying to the infidel, must be considered part and parcel of Islamic tactics.

The parroting by Muslim organizations throughout dar al-harb that "Islam is a religion of peace," or that the origins of Muslim violence lie in the unbalanced psyches of particular individual "fanatics," must be considered as disinformation intended to induce the infidel world to let down its guard.

Of course, individual Muslims may genuinely regard their religion as "peaceful" -- but only insofar as they are ignorant of its true teachings, or in the sense of the Egyptian theorist Sayyid Qutb, who posited in his Islam and Universal Peace that true peace would prevail in the world just as soon as Islam had conquered it.


A telling point is that, while Muslims who present their religion as peaceful abound throughout dar al-harb, they are nearly non-existent in dar al-Islam.

A Muslim apostate once suggested to me a litmus test for Westerners who believe that Islam is a religion of "peace" and "tolerance": try making that point on a street corner in Ramallah, or Riyadh, or Islamabad, or anywhere in the Muslim world. He assured me you wouldn't live five minutes.{A} problem concerning law and order {with respect to Muslims in dar al-harb} arises from an ancient Islamic legal principle -- that of taqiyya, a word the root meaning of which is "to remain faithful" but which in effect means "dissimulation." It has full Quranic authority (3:28 and 16:106) and allows the Muslim to conform outwardly to the requirements of unislamic or non-Islamic government, while inwardly "remaining faithful" to whatever he conceives to be proper Islam, while waiting for the tide to turn. (Hiskett, Some to Mecca Turn to Pray, 101.) Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269; Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."
Historically, examples of taqiyya include permission to renounce Islam itself in order to save one's neck or ingratiate oneself with an enemy. It is not hard to see that the implications of taqiyya are insidious in the extreme: they essentially render negotiated settlement -- and, indeed, all veracious communication between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb -- impossible. It should not, however, be surprising that a party to a war should seek to mislead the other about its means and intentions. Jihad Watch's own Hugh Fitzgerald sums up taqiyya and kitman, a related form of deception."Taqiyya" is the religiously-sanctioned doctrine, with its origins in Shi'a Islam but now practiced by non-Shi'a as well, of deliberate dissimulation about religious matters that may be undertaken to protect Islam, and the Believers. A related term, of broader application, is "kitman," which is defined as "mental reservation." An example of "Taqiyya" would be the insistence of a Muslim apologist that "of course" there is freedom of conscience in Islam, and then quoting that Qur'anic verse -- "There shall be no compulsion in religion." {2:256} But the impression given will be false, for there has been no mention of the Muslim doctrine of abrogation, or naskh, whereby such an early verse as that about "no compulsion in religion" has been cancelled out by later, far more intolerant and malevolent verses. In any case, history shows that within Islam there is, and always has been, "compulsion in religion" for Muslims, and for non-Muslims. "Kitman" is close to "taqiyya," but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with "mental reservation" justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Muslim maintains that "jihad" really means "a spiritual struggle," and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing "kitman." When he adduces, in support of this doubtful proposition, the hadith in which Muhammad, returning home from one of his many battles, is reported to have said (as known from a chain of transmitters, or isnad), that he had returned from "the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad" and does not add what he also knows to be true, that this is a "weak" hadith, regarded by the most-respected muhaddithin as of doubtful authenticity, he is further practicing "kitman."
In times when the greater strength of dar al-harb necessitates that the jihad take an indirect approach, the natural attitude of a Muslim to the infidel world must be one of deception and omission. Revealing frankly the ultimate goal of dar al-Islam to conquer and plunder dar al-harb when the latter holds the military trump cards would be strategic idiocy. Fortunately for the jihadists, most infidels do not understand how one is to read the Quran, nor do they trouble themselves to find out what Muhammad actually did and taught, which makes it easy to give the impression through selective quotations and omissions that "Islam is a religion of peace." Any infidel who wants to believe such fiction will happily persist in his mistake having been cited a handful of Meccan verses and told that Muhammad was a man of great piety and charity. Digging only slightly deeper is sufficient to dispel the falsehood.


http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html

[eternal_spirit]

[QUOTE]





I dont agree with u on that but that cant be the case for the ten of thousands of people converting in the west surely?
It's because they don't know what Islam is about, or have friends who are genuinely good Muslim people.

But most who convert they are gullible and ignorant. Another reason for the increase - When someone marrys a Muslim they become a Muslim and any children born then also become Muslims.

[eternal_spirit]

These 2 religions especially in their original state, carry the same message as islam.

17:77 (This was Our) way with the apostles We sent before thee: thou wilt find no change in Our ways.

The Talmud and religious laws are very similar to the Koran I'll agree with that. New testament with it's 10 commandments and trinity is a different thing, it's more influenced by Greek Helenistic (Iseus Christos) than Hebrew.

[picha]

Are you being serious?? Even some scholars and Buddhists dont class Buddhism as a religion let alone a religion from god!!

Is that why muslims murdered millions of them then?

[picha]

[QUOTE]



And whats wrong with that? People of other religions/cultures at the time didnt give you any choice they would just kill you there and then but with this its giving the person a choice to choose the right path or still stay in their land (under protection) for a tax.. cant be fairer than that and its not just the non muslims that pay tax, believe it or not every muslim has a duty to pay tax, which will help the needy (zakat) a beautiful system dont you think?

And about people converting, Im not talking about in the muslims country, just look at the country where you live, how many people do you know or have heard that have converted to islam, a few im guessing, its the same in most of the western world, no forcing or brain washing here my old mucker, they chose they truth will their OWN will. In my local mosque I know of about at least 20 english people who have converted in the last year.


I dont agree with u on that but that cant be the case for the ten of thousands of people converting in the west surely?

If islam really was the right path, then dont you think this god of yours would have just make the whole world islamic to begin with? If you try and tell me he did but the jews and christians corrupted it then you are going to have to explain the existance of native american and asian religions that have fuck all to do with the abrahamic ones.

[lightgiver]

Are you being serious?? Even some scholars and Buddhists dont class Buddhism as a religion let alone a religion from god!!

I should know;)

maybe you need to go away and practice for YOURSELF for a few years.

Of course everything is a label you obviously have not read any of my posts.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76657

Try reading some of this on the link.

I'm reading the most interesting articles on mind control at the minute (whilst sitting in bed with a cocoa, wearing reading glasses and feeling and looking about 60 :p)



Spiritually speaking just think how old we really are;):D

Yes with all this EVIL in the world no wonder people feel old,I sometimes feel about 6,000 yrs old :p:D

[mightyoak]

burning innocent children?? who did that? if thats the case then obviously its a sick act and has no place for it anywhere on earth! I have said many times before, if a hadith does not compliment the quran then dont take that hadith seriously as there are many false hadiths.

You sort of answered your own question, these people who are doing these are not following Islam properly, if they are doing it because that's the way they are interpreting Islam wrongly, then they will get their punishment when they leave here (earth). But 99.9% of muslims do not want violence/bloodshed etc me included, however if there was an unjust war in my land against me then of course i will defend myself/property/family...

These people are bringing you As a so called moderate defender off Islam into disrepute are they not. Terrorism is terrorism, Murder the same, however you approach the subject !

You state, they will get there punishment in the hereafter. Good nice too know., If that's the case ?(( what is the 72 virgins all about then ?)) However i would wish to hasten that ending in the here and now. Sending them verily on there way to whatever !

Are you then also telling this forum Scoob. That the Koran is basically a mish mash off good and evil intentions Backed up by various scholars and hadiths. If so. Then not one sect can say they are doing anything wrong, without a defence based on the many teachings.
This is what sucks about Islam Not one will condemn the other, when challenged by the infidel for two reasons it might seem Firstly, Because they might be rightly following a path not yet that they are aware off? Unless off course you happen to be off ahmardi The blasphemy as being the only group to believe in the resurecion And secondondly, the muslim unity The ummah Which cannot be broken .....

Islam is 3 verses IN my humble opinion Those being Taqiyya..

[zarah]

These people are bringing you As a so called moderate defender off Islam into disrepute are they not. Terrorism is terrorism, Murder the same, however you approach the subject !

Murder is murder, you're absolutely right.

Which people? He and I have both asked you who has been murdering children, and you've yet to provide the debate with an answer.


You state, they will get there punishment in the hereafter. Good nice too know., If that's the case ?(( what is the 72 virgins all about then ?)) However i would wish to hasten that ending in the here and now. Sending them verily on there way to whatever !

The72 virgins element is a hadith and isn't referred to in the Qu'ran. You're mixing up sayings which may or may not be attributed to the Prophet to the words of God. Could it not be argued that God regards female chasity as an important attribute? Why does how many virgins there are or aren't in any preceived heaven bother you? Are you one of those anti-Islamic people who claim to be standing up for the 'rights' of women?

Are you then also telling this forum Scoob. That the Koran is basically a mish mash off good and evil intentions Backed up by various scholars and hadiths. If so. Then not one sect can say they are doing anything wrong, without a defence based on the many teachings.

I would argue that unless you stick to the Arabic version of the Qu'ran, you could be misled, either intentionally or unintentionally. In the Qu'ran God refers to our brains and capacity for understanding. Perhaps rather than relying on a third person's interpreation of the text, one should take the time to learn the langauge it was revealed in.

This is what sucks about Islam Not one will condemn the other, when challenged by the infidel for two reasons it might seem Firstly, Because they might be rightly following a path not yet that they are aware off? Unless off course you happen to be off ahmardi The blasphemy as being the only group to believe in the resurecion And secondondly, the muslim unity The ummah Which cannot be broken .....

Who's 'not one' and what dyou mean by condemn the other?

I don't think you understand Islam at all. The whole point is that a Muslim should submit to the teachings of God. Not a imam's interpretation of those tenets. Once this whole malarky about resurrection, about whether Ali should have been the first caliph or anything else, you stray off the course of the Qur'an's intentions - which in my opinion is to unite, fight opression and ensure that social justice is entrenched in any Muslim community.

Islam is 3 verses IN my humble opinion Those being Taqiyya..

Why?

[mightyoak]

Why would i want to learn Arabic To read the quran The English translation is good enough to know something is fundamentally wrong with it . Its seems you use this term alot Are you suggesting that Arabic is superior to my own ?

[zarah]

Why would i want to learn Arabic To read the quran The English translation is good enough to know something is fundamentally wrong with it . Its seems you use this term alot Are you suggesting that Arabic is superior to my own ?

Can you tell me, for the third time of asking, who murdered the children you referred to in a previous post?

I didn't suggest YOU should read the Qu'ran. I said that in order to gain a clear understaning of its tenets, one should read it in the language it was revealed in. Therefore the risk of misinterpretation by a third party would be minimised. No?

If you were part of a meglomanical cabal intent on controlling vast swaths of people, would you not think that to gain control of their faith and twist its teachings to suit the purpose of your cabal? Now, let's apply that train of thought to Islam and what we know about the twisting of basic tenets of that faith:

a) The Qu'ran defends the rights of women, yet certain elements of Islam consistently treat women as inferior creatures

b) Jihad means 'struggle' yet it is now interpreted to mean 'holy war'

c) Suicide, and the murder of innocents (especially women and children) even in war, is prohibited, and yet suicide bombings and the murder of civilans seem to be daily occurances within Islamic states

and on and on and on...

I can clearly tell, just by the way in which you seem not to bother to address most of the points made to you, in response to posts you've made you have little of no knoweldge of Islam or the Qur'an, except for what you glean from your websites of choice.

I'll try again....why do you think Taqiyya to sum up Islam? It talks about pretending and hiding your faith. Does that sound like a Muslim to you? If so, why?

Do you agree that there is at least a possibilty that Islam has been infiltrated by the elite, sects which is prohibited in Islam devised and thata divide and conquer operation is in progress?

Do you believe that Muslims, especially those from Middle Eastern and Asian origin follow a backward and uncivilised religion and are less intelligent that those from other parts of the world who follow alternative faiths?

I look foward to reading your replies. :)

[mightyoak]

[COLOR="Purple"]Can you tell me, for the third time of asking, who murdered the children you referred to in a previous post?]

Sorry for the delay in replying guy But been busy.

Anyway the reference i made to children being burned alive Was one regarding the Pakistani Christan community off Gojya, Punjab. Who where attacked by the so-called peaceful followers off Islam.

The debate has slightly gone off topic Because you never read the post properly, i feel However if you would care to look back and Perhaps we can presume from there.
My concern is this! Why do Muslims on here Talk about the protection afforded to those off the book When in all reality there is no such thing This is one instance off many atrocities to the very same . ie; Sudan, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi etc etc.. All have present day occurances Off Christan persicution, Raping n murder stories are many.
Are you then aware that the protection the Quran speaks off. Is not observed !!! Never was in the past either, Off which there are also numerous events to debate.on the matter , if you so wish ? Are you really in a stupid denial or just plain ignorant to the facts ....


Lets stick to this subject matter for now. We can discuss other things later or on another thread if required. Altho i suspect most topics have been covered befor With ES and others....

[raven200]

Sorry for the delay in replying guy But been busy.

Anyway the reference i made to children being burned alive Was one regarding the Pakistani Christan community off Gojya, Punjab. Who where attacked by the so-called peaceful followers off Islam.

The debate has slightly gone off topic Because you never read the post properly, i feel However if you would care to look back and Perhaps we can presume from there.
My concern is this! Why do Muslims on here Talk about the protection afforded to those off the book When in all reality there is no such thing This is one instance off many atrocities to the very same . ie; Sudan, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi etc etc.. All have present day occurances Off Christan persicution, Raping n murder stories are many.
Are you then aware that the protection the Quran speaks off. Is not observed !!! Never was in the past either, Off which there are also numerous events to debate.on the matter , if you so wish ? Are you really in a stupid denial or just plain ignorant to the facts ....


Lets stick to this subject matter for now. We can discuss other things later or on another thread if required. Altho i suspect most topics have been covered befor With ES and others....

The countries you have listed, the majority of them are under American occupancy or heavily influnced by the American Government.

Now I'm not disagreeing that muslims have not killed in the name of religion because it is a fact that there are extreme muslims who do.

That does not mean that they truely represent all Muslims or the true Islam.

I shall paste quotes below from the Holy Quran to show you what the Quran says regarding people of other faith:

Chapter 2 Verse 62:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Chapter 2 Verse 113

The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

Chapter 5 Verse 69

Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Chapter 5 Verse 82

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Chapter 9 Verse 30

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

The christian and Jews that have made a man into God's son thus creating another God have gone against the basic principles of there teachings that there is no God other then the one true God. Therefore all of them who do so feverishly are going against the true faith. There are many christians and Jews who do not do this thus they will be saved.

Chapter 22 Verse 17

Those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

From this is it not clear the the Quran itself is not seeing people of other faith as people that other people have the right to judge but infact it will be God himself who has this right. And whosoever goes against this is not following the correct Islam.

[mightyoak]

This is reality ............



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSvZYxlFzhQ

[mightyoak]

Here is yet another example off your Islamic protection off, ""The people off the book"" Raven...

""Ingy Adel, now 16, was abducted at the age of 12 on her way to school by being anaesthetized and bundled into a car. "I was taken into a room by a man called Sultan, who tied my hands behind my back and raped me," said Ingy. Four men followed Sultan in raping her, "I felt as each one of them raped me, that I was their enemy. They have beaten me ferociously." She said that for a whole month she was given drugs and raped, "more than 50 men raped me." After two months and only through the efforts of her father she was found and brought back home. When they reported the crime to the State Security she was beaten by the officer to change her testimony and say that she ran away from her family with her own free will. "Until today they have done nothing about it and will not do anything, because I am a Christian," sobs Ingy (see testimony).""

Full artical here;
http://www.aina.org/news/20091223164421.htm

[mightyoak]

Now I'm not disagreeing that muslims have not killed in the name of religion because it is a fact that there are extreme muslims who do.

That does not mean that they truly represent all Muslims or the true Islam.

Well raven We agree on that fact. However the Extreme ones I believe are following the Sharia.(Allahs law) Which i understand to be the one and only true law. Which also i gather is final and unchangeable. Are they not ? ? ?
Thus they would class themselves as true muslims!


Most muslims i presume FEAR there fate in the hereafter. Yes or NO ? That fear is off the Hellfire or (Jahannam) . Those extreme muslims off which you speak, are they, going there??? In your humble opinion As one who might not be truly observant off the Sharia in all its glory.
Or could that be you and other moderates, in there so-called extremist opinion ?....


.

[picha]

The countries you have listed, the majority of them are under American occupancy or heavily influnced by the American Government.

Now I'm not disagreeing that muslims have not killed in the name of religion because it is a fact that there are extreme muslims who do.

That does not mean that they truely represent all Muslims or the true Islam.

I shall paste quotes below from the Holy Quran to show you what the Quran says regarding people of other faith:

Chapter 2 Verse 62:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Chapter 2 Verse 113

The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

Chapter 5 Verse 69

Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Chapter 5 Verse 82

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Chapter 9 Verse 30

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

The christian and Jews that have made a man into God's son thus creating another God have gone against the basic principles of there teachings that there is no God other then the one true God. Therefore all of them who do so feverishly are going against the true faith. There are many christians and Jews who do not do this thus they will be saved.

Chapter 22 Verse 17

Those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

From this is it not clear the the Quran itself is not seeing people of other faith as people that other people have the right to judge but infact it will be God himself who has this right. And whosoever goes against this is not following the correct Islam.

Would you class mohammed an extreme muslim then? Because he was someone who killed in the name of islam wasnt he.

[raven200]

Well raven We agree on that fact. However the Extreme ones I believe are following the Sharia.(Allahs law) Which i understand to be the one and only true law. Which also i gather is final and unchangeable. Are they not ? ? ?
Thus they would class themselves as true muslims!


Most muslims i presume FEAR there fate in the hereafter. Yes or NO ? That fear is off the Hellfire or (Jahannam) . Those extreme muslims off which you speak, are they, going there??? In your humble opinion As one who might not be truly observant off the Sharia in all its glory.
Or could that be you and other moderates, in there so-called extremist opinion ?....


.

My friend may God open your eyes, look deep into your heart and talk to your soul, do you really think you are speaking the truth.

Do you really think that people who purposely rape or kill are following the Holy Quran.

Nowhere in the Quran is there the command to rape and also in relation to where it speak of kill the infidels, for that you need to read the whole passage and then you will understand it is regarding the time of the holy PROPHET when the Quraish tribe were out to kill all muslims it was in this time that Allah specifically only commanded the muslims at that time to defend themselves from the Non muslims who were trying to destroy the faith and kill all muslims. Do you know the muslim went through a number of years of persecution from these non muslims. Muslim women and men used to be tied between two camels and then both camels were made to run in opposite direction ripping the muslims into two. They were slaughtered as and when the non muslims liked, The Holy prophet himself was persecuted but he and his followers did not utter a word to these non muslims but prayed to god to guide them and protect them and it was after all this that God commanded them to defend themselves. Never did Our beloved prophet Mohammad (saw) allow the raping of women or killing of children. If you have ever read such a thing you have been lied to.

There was one instance when one of the followers of the Holy prophet killed a enemies soldier after that soldier had proclaimed the kalima. The act was informed to the Holy Prophet and it is narrated that the Holy prophet called his follower and asked him why he did such a thing.

The companion replied that The man had only said he was becoming muslim to save his life. At this the Holy prophet looked at his companion in extreme pain anger and anguish and asked him. Were you able to see into this mans heart and see if he was lying or telling the truth!

The prophet saw such acts of violence as breaking the command of God, He taught fairness and compassion to the Arabs, these arabs used to be like animals who would kill and also bury baby girls at birth.

He gave them guidance, the guidance given to him by God about how to be fair and just and to never go beyond your limits.

No where does the Quran give the command to muslims to kill all non muslims as in my previous post I have quoted from the Quran explaining to you how the Quran sees people who follow other faiths and it certainly does not give any man to kill them because they differ on religion.

You need to read the correct Islamic history rather then go on by what a few extremists against Islam are feeding you, right now you are an extremist against Islam.

My friend a person has been given the gift of free thought and use of logic and research use these tools and look into more then one source or a few of a different kinds of sources you are using as you are being misguided about Islam as the extremist muslims misguide other un educated muslims.

You are currently fuelling yourself in hate of something that does not hate you and does not in reality teach to hate.

For example if you constantly start thinking that your neighbour is out to hurt you, say your dog dies or your wheel get punctured one day. You would at once start to think it must have been that horrid neighbour that you dislike, even though both occurances most propbably would have had nothing to do with your neighbour.

But because you have grown a hate from within those are you natural impulses to think firstly negatively about your neighbour. Not bothering to inquire the true facts but to build hate within your heart. Then maybe oneday you find your are in terrible trouble and some form of emergency has taken place, say a medical emergency and in that emergency your neighbour comes to your aid. Would it take for something so extreme for you to realise that maybe all along you thought wrongly about your neighbour and if only you had approached him with a clear heart you would have saved yourself from so much hate.

Therefore think of Islam like it is your neighbour and approach it with a more open mind and conduct some realistic research into it not from the same sources but from other places.

Im sure if you look with an open mind the truth will stright away come to you. :)

[mightyoak]

Unless You my friend Where the neighbour of my neighbour of which you speak. Who told me unreservedly that my neighbour was incapable off doing these things that i was accusing him off doing. Yet you was unaware, That those things , where in fact actual. Cus our mutual neighbour had deceived you As a matter off protection off his own reputation, in your eyes. Who would be right in that situation .....

That is what is correct I would suggest Eh Raven

Btw Any chance off an answer, FOR THIS QUESTON Yes or NO ?

Most muslims i presume FEAR there fate in the hereafter. Yes or NO ? That fear is off the Hellfire or (Jahannam) . Those extreme muslims off which you speak, are they, going there??? In your humble opinion As one who might not be truly observant off the Sharia in all its glory.
Or could that be you and other moderates, in there so-called extremist opinion ?....

And without going off topic I do not Hate anything apart from lies n deception !!

[raven200]

Unless You my friend Where the neighbour of my neighbour of which you speak. Who told me unreservedly that my neighbour was incapable off doing these things that i was accusing him off doing. Yet you was unaware, That those things , where in fact actual. Cus our mutual neighbour had deceived you As a matter off protection off his own reputation, in your eyes. Who would be right in that situation .....

That is what is correct I would suggest Eh Raven

Btw Any chance off an answer, FOR THIS QUESTON Yes or NO ?

Most muslims i presume FEAR there fate in the hereafter. Yes or NO ? That fear is off the Hellfire or (Jahannam) . Those extreme muslims off which you speak, are they, going there??? In your humble opinion As one who might not be truly observant off the Sharia in all its glory.
Or could that be you and other moderates, in there so-called extremist opinion ?....

And without going off topic I do not Hate anything apart from lies n deception !!

I will definately answer your questions, there is nothing to be hidden and should not be hidden, and like you I also dislike Lies and deception and I feel that you are trying to decieve others about Islam.

Now the extreme muslims who promote murder in the name of religion will be hellbound and it will be Allah who will punish them. Ofcourse God does not want humans to kill each other over things they do not have a complete understanding of. The sharia law you speak of this is basically what the Quran states as right and wrong and also how things should be dealth wit in fairness.

The Sharia law does not say to Kill people becasue they differ with you in religion. That is completely wrong. Again I will repeat myself that they only part that people use who like to say that the Quran is speaking about kIlling is that part when God commanded the Holy peophet to defend the muslims and protect themselves from being wiped out.

That is not a law ordained to all muslims but when reading the Quran it is clear that it is an historical chapter of the time of the Holy Prophet.

When the Quran speak regarding Law it is very clear about things and says so in a manner that people can clearly understand that this is law, I shal give you some examples:

Chapter 2 Verse 173

He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.

Chapter 7 Verse 33

Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

Even things like divorce are explained in Quran:

002.227
But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

002.228
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

002.229
A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah; so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).

002.230
So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.

002.231
When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah's Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah's favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

002.232
When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and Allah knows, and ye know not.

So much detail has gone into explain this and when you read it then you can clearly see that in todays western society Divorce law utilises a lot of the teachings given in the Quran. The bible does not go into so much detail relating to such matters.

I don't find anywhere in the Quran where it states kill Christians or Jews etc, but I do find in many places that Allah decides between people of faith and that there is no compulsion in religion.

Therefore it is the extremist that do not follow the Quran correctly and thus have nothing to do with the Sharia law. Because the sharia law is written within the Holy Quran.

I hope this answers your question.

Please do ask me more questions if you still feel that Islam is teaching violence when it is not.

If you want I can put forward Islamic history regarding the Holy Prophet infront of you here and you can read the truth rather then to keep thinking he was violent, which is far far far from the truth.

I'm a muslim I read my scriptures how can you tell me I am wrong and that what you think or deem to think is correct in relation to what Islam teaches.

[mightyoak]

I hope this answers your question.

Please do ask me more questions if you still feel that Islam is teaching violence when it is not.

If you want I can put forward Islamic history regarding the Holy Prophet infront of you here and you can read the truth rather then to keep thinking he was violent, which is far far far from the truth.

I'm a muslim I read my scriptures how can you tell me I am wrong and that what you think or deem to think is correct in relation to what Islam teaches.

I read your post With care Raven and Will offer my apologies to your good-self. For this reason only, I have just read the thread (Illuminati in the Qu'ran )And understand you are off, the Amhardi sect off the Islamic faith. A sect i find on the whole to, follow that which is tolerant and also persecuted for your beliefs on the resurrection off the Christ. By the other sect or branches off the faith.

However i do disagree on not your path But the path of some Others sects.The wahhabi and deobandi to name but two. There's and others are not tolerant, And follow this more extreme version's off the Sura's and Hadiths.

All this goes to prove in all respects Is that differing interpretations abound. Even muslim sects disagree passionatly. Because i feel that's was mohammed's intension So that disbelievers and none muslim are confused. I Always say Good n Evil hides within the Your holy scripture For that i offer no apoligy. The evidence for this is everywhere.

But as a pious muslim I hope you find at the end off your earthly residence Your residence within Jannah And not the hellfire (Jahannam)

[raven200]

I read your post With care Raven and Will offer my apologies to your good-self. For this reason only, I have just read the thread (Illuminati in the Qu'ran )And understand you are off, the Amhardi sect off the Islamic faith. A sect i find on the whole to, follow that which is tolerant and also persecuted for your beliefs on the resurrection off the Christ. By the other sect or branches off the faith.

However i do disagree on not your path But the path of some Others sects.The wahhabi and deobandi to name but two. There's and others are not tolerant, And follow this more extreme version's off the Sura's and Hadiths.

All this goes to prove in all respects Is that differing interpretations abound. Even muslim sects disagree passionatly. Because i feel that's was mohammed's intension So that disbelievers and none muslim are confused. I Always say Good n Evil hides within the Your holy scripture For that i offer no apoligy. The evidence for this is everywhere.

But as a pious muslim I hope you find at the end off your earthly residence Your residence within Jannah And not the hellfire (Jahannam)

I am glad to see such a tolerent and honest response from you. I agree with a lot of what you have written here with regards to sects such as wahhabi's and Deobandi's. A lot of the clerics within sects such as these are pushing for a Holy war, which is truely a danger for society. These people are some of the worst on the planet and are completely lost in themsleves and on top of that brainwash many innocent people.

Majority of the eastern muslim countries are very poor and full of uneducated people who are easily persuaded to the wrong teachings of these clerics.
These poor people are normally unable to read or write and thus are totally in the hands of these monsters who lie to them about there faith.

Though over all you will have to realise that majority of muslims especially the ones living in the west are not heretics because they have been educated and have access to the correct scriptures thus they realise that there religion does not promote violence. Though saying that I have myself seen educated extremists who are still spellbound by some clerics who teach in there mosques.

The biggest problem for this wrong belief is the opinion about the second coming of Jesus and in that they have mis interprated a hadith regarding the second coming and thus think that there will be a holy war and that the massih and mahdi will fight togather to kill the anti christ and will break the cross and kill all the swine around the world.

These are the disturbing beliefs of these estremists, they have missed out a whole lot of other information and ignored the Holy Quran and have lost themselves in an imaginary fight which is not what Islam asks of them.

As an Ahmadi muslim it is our duty to inform these misled people that the second coming of Jesus is never going to be a physical one and Jesus and the Mahdi are not going to go into a warfare crusade.

I have many discussion with muslims as well to try and open there minds to the truth but it's these lies that they have built int there faith that is causing them to go the wrong way.

That is why muslims are suffering around the world , they have turned from what Islams basic teachings are and have either lost themselves into the materialistic world or gone the other way and become extreme.

And when my community the Ahmadi muslims speak out or have spoken out we have been casted out as non muslims.

So people like me feel we have to provide truth to not just non muslims but also muslims as well. I am here defending Islam not only to yourself but also to other muslims as well who have gone astray from there true beliefs.

If you want this extremism to stop then they only way for this is to open mulsims eyes relating to Jesus and that he will not come back and that he has died. The quran supports this fact and I need to get htis message out to as many people as possible, which I try and do.

By telling muslims there religion is extreme does not do anything it only breeds more hate. If someone is lost in lies the truth needs to be put infront of them.

I would emphasize that non muslims who go all anti Islam and proclaim the Prophet was violent need to take a step back as this strengthens the resolve of the muslims who are lost in lies, as they go into defence mode and are unable to see the truth.

Also very importantly I have to add that western politics has played a great game as well. It has used these extremists to its own gains and that is for things like allowing extreme acts to go ahead so that they can then use them as an excuse to start wars so that they can go into certain countries and take control of the natural resources.

These extremists have to some extent been given support by powers such as America and even to some extent the UK, and when the russians needed them they two provided support to these extremists.

In this game of politics and extreme religion it is people like you and me who suffer. I feel it is your responsibility and mine also to open our eyes in relation to decisions our governments are making and have made regarding world politics and in relation to the extremists it is very much so the responsibility of the muslims to stop there lies from spreading.

We are all humans at the end of the day and we all look different from one another, and we will always have different opinions from one another. But what we mus'nt do is to call each others faiths evil as a human is nothing without his faith a person beliefs are the most dearest things to his heart be it the faith to support a football team or a childs faith in his parents.

We can only tell people with truth and logic about what we think we can never enforce it. And if you show someone with true evidence and correct information they will be more inclined to listen to you rather then using information that the other person you know will always disagree with you on.

Hope I hav'nt gone on too long. I would really like the opportunity to give you a different side of the story relating to the Holy Prophet Mohammad, that is only if you wish for me to provide you with this information.

It can not do you any harm to learn or see some new information, which may allow you to better deal with extreme people.

[scooby85]

It's because they don't know what Islam is about, or have friends who are genuinely good Muslim people.

But most who convert they are gullible and ignorant. Another reason for the increase - When someone marrys a Muslim they become a Muslim and any children born then also become Muslims.

Haha what a stupid reply! Yeh I can just see converts saying:

'I dont know alot about islam but il convert and change my whole way of life and cut my close ties with my non muslim friends and family'

or 'this muslim mans told me islam is good, il have to believe it and change my whole life because of it and i wont bother doing any research before i convert cos my mate abdul said its a good religion'

And why do people convert into a muslim when they marry and not the other way round? Its because when you do the research its not hard to see right from wrong.
Sort it out es your arguments are sooo weak, your a joke seriously!

[scooby85]

The Talmud and religious laws are very similar to the Koran I'll agree with that. New testament with it's 10 commandments and trinity is a different thing, it's more influenced by Greek Helenistic (Iseus Christos) than Hebrew.

The talmud and the quran wil,l be similar as it has the same author, god. Even christianity is similar in many regards, as jesus himself believed in the one god, he was not god or the son of god, he was just a prophet like the rest of them.

Say: O People of the Scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partners unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (to Allah).
[Al Imran 3:64]

[scooby85]

If islam really was the right path, then dont you think this god of yours would have just make the whole world islamic to begin with? If you try and tell me he did but the jews and christians corrupted it then you are going to have to explain the existance of native american and asian religions that have fuck all to do with the abrahamic ones.

What would be the point of life then? life is a test, you do good, you get good when you die..and vice a versa.

How can you possibly think that we will not be judged when we die??

Look at our governments, they kill, rape, steal and do alot more, do you not think that they will be judged when they die? We cant punish them but they will get their punishment, thats for sure.

And not at all i will not say god tried to make an islamic world because he didnt, everyone has the option of being a muslim, whether you want to or not thats 100% down to you however, you will be judged.

[scooby85]

I should know;)

maybe you need to go away and practice for YOURSELF for a few years.

Of course everything is a label you obviously have not read any of my posts.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76657

Try reading some of this on the link.



I havnt got a problem with buddhists, they are dedicated and peaceful il give them that but I dont believe that buddhism is a religion from god so in my view its man made.. isnt it more of a philosophy rather than a religion?? I maybe wrong.

[scooby85]

These people are bringing you As a so called moderate defender off Islam into disrepute are they not. Terrorism is terrorism, Murder the same, however you approach the subject !

You state, they will get there punishment in the hereafter. Good nice too know., If that's the case ?(( what is the 72 virgins all about then ?)) However i would wish to hasten that ending in the here and now. Sending them verily on there way to whatever !

Are you then also telling this forum Scoob. That the Koran is basically a mish mash off good and evil intentions Backed up by various scholars and hadiths. If so. Then not one sect can say they are doing anything wrong, without a defence based on the many teachings.
This is what sucks about Islam Not one will condemn the other, when challenged by the infidel for two reasons it might seem Firstly, Because they might be rightly following a path not yet that they are aware off? Unless off course you happen to be off ahmardi The blasphemy as being the only group to believe in the resurecion And secondondly, the muslim unity The ummah Which cannot be broken .....

Islam is 3 verses IN my humble opinion Those being Taqiyya..

At the end of the day i am not responsible for how other 'muslims' practise islam but i am responsible for the way I practise it and Im sure that you will not find any 'evil' in the way i practise it and in my view that is how islam should be.

[scooby85]

Why would i want to learn Arabic To read the quran The English translation is good enough to know something is fundamentally wrong with it . Its seems you use this term alot Are you suggesting that Arabic is superior to my own ?

No what she is suggesting is that in oreder to understand the quran properly, you have to know the arabic language properly as some of the english translations do not have the literal translated words in english, so you have to use a word thats similar but changes the context of a verse.

Let me ask you, when you read the quran do you actually read whole surahs/paragraphs from an actual book or do you find sites that nit pick a few verses and portray them however they want to portray those lines?

[scooby85]

Sorry for the delay in replying guy But been busy.

[QUOTE]Anyway the reference i made to children being burned alive Was one regarding the Pakistani Christan community off Gojya, Punjab. Who where attacked by the so-called peaceful followers off Islam.

Is that the same incident where the christians were alleged to have burned copies of the quran?? And actually their intention wasnt to burn the children like you made it out like, they burned the christians houses and in the process a handful of people got burned but that wasnt their main aim.. can you imagine the outrage it would cause if a muslim living in a strong faithed christian country burned the bible??



My concern is this! Why do Muslims on here Talk about the protection afforded to those off the book When in all reality there is no such thing This is one instance off many atrocities to the very same . ie; Sudan, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi etc etc.. All have present day occurances Off Christan persicution, Raping n murder stories are many.
Are you then aware that the protection the Quran speaks off. Is not observed !!! Never was in the past either, Off which there are also numerous events to debate.on the matter , if you so wish ? Are you really in a stupid denial or just plain ignorant to the facts ....

All those countries mentioned.. how many are actually run by real muslim people?? those govts were put in place by the ptb. the illuminati control those countries more than the govts.

Lets stick to this subject matter for now. We can discuss other things later or on another thread if required. Altho i suspect most topics have been covered befor With ES and others....

nahh es tends to divert away from the subject when he cant answer me, which is very often!

[scooby85]

Here is yet another example off your Islamic protection off, ""The people off the book"" Raven...

""Ingy Adel, now 16, was abducted at the age of 12 on her way to school by being anaesthetized and bundled into a car. "I was taken into a room by a man called Sultan, who tied my hands behind my back and raped me," said Ingy. Four men followed Sultan in raping her, "I felt as each one of them raped me, that I was their enemy. They have beaten me ferociously." She said that for a whole month she was given drugs and raped, "more than 50 men raped me." After two months and only through the efforts of her father she was found and brought back home. When they reported the crime to the State Security she was beaten by the officer to change her testimony and say that she ran away from her family with her own free will. "Until today they have done nothing about it and will not do anything, because I am a Christian," sobs Ingy (see testimony).""

Full artical here;
http://www.aina.org/news/20091223164421.htm

wtf has this got to do with islam?? I thought u were fairly open minded but ur no better than es!! You LIE to make islam look bad... Please, I beg u to show me where in the quran does it allow this act you have just mentioned???

[scooby85]

Well raven We agree on that fact. However the Extreme ones I believe are following the Sharia.(Allahs law) Which i understand to be the one and only true law. Which also i gather is final and unchangeable. Are they not ? ? ?
Thus they would class themselves as true muslims!


Most muslims i presume FEAR there fate in the hereafter. Yes or NO ? That fear is off the Hellfire or (Jahannam) . Those extreme muslims off which you speak, are they, going there??? In your humble opinion As one who might not be truly observant off the Sharia in all its glory.
Or could that be you and other moderates, in there so-called extremist opinion ?....


.

No the 'extreme' ones are not following sharia law but rather the wahabbi sect, which in my view is pure evil

[scooby85]

Would you class mohammed an extreme muslim then? Because he was someone who killed in the name of islam wasnt he.

No because he killed in order to defend himself and islam, he never murdered innocent people.

[mightyoak]

I am glad to see such a tolerent and honest response from you. I agree with a lot of what you have written here with regards to sects such as wahhabi's and Deobandi's. A lot of the clerics within sects such as these are pushing for a Holy war, which is truely a danger for society. These people are some of the worst on the planet and are completely lost in themsleves and on top of that brainwash many innocent people.
Majority of the eastern muslim countries are very poor and full of uneducated people who are easily persuaded to the wrong teachings of these clerics.
These poor people are normally unable to read or write and thus are totally in the hands of these monsters who lie to them about there faith.

Though over all you will have to realise that majority of muslims especially the ones living in the west are not heretics because they have been educated and have access to the correct scriptures thus they realise that there religion does not promote violence. Though saying that I have myself seen educated extremists who are still spellbound by some clerics who teach in there mosques.


These are the disturbing beliefs of these estremists, they have missed out a whole lot of other information and ignored the Holy Quran and have lost themselves in an imaginary fight which is not what Islam asks of them.

As an Ahmadi muslim it is our duty to inform these misled people that the second coming of Jesus is never going to be a physical one and Jesus and the Mahdi are not going to go into a warfare crusade.

I have many discussion with muslims as well to try and open there minds to the truth but it's these lies that they have built int there faith that is causing them to go the wrong way.

That is why muslims are suffering around the world , they have turned from what Islams basic teachings are and have either lost themselves into the materialistic world or gone the other way and become extreme.

And when my community the Ahmadi muslims speak out or have spoken out we have been casted out as non muslims.

So people like me feel we have to provide truth to not just non muslims but also muslims as well. I am here defending Islam not only to yourself but also to other muslims as well who have gone astray from there true beliefs.
If you want this extremism to stop then they only way for this is to open mulsims eyes relating to Jesus and that he will not come back and that he has died. The quran supports this fact and I need to get htis message out to as many people as possible, which I try and do.

By telling muslims there religion is extreme does not do anything it only breeds more hate. If someone is lost in lies the truth needs to be put infront of them.

I would emphasize that non muslims who go all anti Islam and proclaim the Prophet was violent need to take a step back as this strengthens the resolve of the muslims who are lost in lies, as they go into defence mode and are unable to see the truth.

Also very importantly I have to add that western politics has played a great game as well. It has used these extremists to its own gains and that is for things like allowing extreme acts to go ahead so that they can then use them as an excuse to start wars so that they can go into certain countries and take control of the natural resources.
These extremists have to some extent been given support by powers such as America and even to some extent the UK, and when the russians needed them they two provided support to these extremists.

In this game of politics and extreme religion it is people like you and me who suffer. I feel it is your responsibility and mine also to open our eyes in relation to decisions our governments are making and have made regarding world politics and in relation to the extremists it is very much so the responsibility of the muslims to stop there lies from spreading.We are all humans at the end of the day and we all look different from one another, and we will always have different opinions from one another. But what we mus'nt do is to call each others faiths evil as a human is nothing without his faith a person beliefs are the most dearest things to his heart be it the faith to support a football team or a childs faith in his parents.

We can only tell people with truth and logic about what we think we can never enforce it. And if you show someone with true evidence and correct information they will be more inclined to listen to you rather then using information that the other person you know will always disagree with you on.

Hope I hav'nt gone on too long. I would really like the opportunity to give you a different side of the story relating to the Holy Prophet Mohammad, that is only if you wish for me to provide you with this information.

It can not do you any harm to learn or see some new information, which may allow you to better deal with extreme people.

All i can say is thank-you for your honesty Raven I have highlighted some off the sentences As they are off particular interest. I Feel tho that Other muslims, who reside within this forum are Using your Ahmadi view-point, to further there own ends. Even though they would cast your sect aside as blasphemous

[zarah]

Sorry for the delay in replying guy But been busy.

No worries.

Anyway the reference i made to children being burned alive Was one regarding the Pakistani Christan community off Gojya, Punjab. Who where attacked by the so-called peaceful followers off Islam.

Thanks for finally answering me, better late than never. Witches were burned alive in the Middle Ages, heretics have been burned alive throughout recorded recent history. I finally found a report of the incident to which I think you refer, although I have a feeling you read the report from JihadWatch. The people responsible committed murder after being incited by religious leaders.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=15943&size=A

This supports my theory that religion is used as a tool of control.

If you're addressing this from a humanist perspective rather than a anti-islamic perspective, you'll obviously be equally up in arms about air strikes by American airforce planes which murder innocent children in Pakistan as well, right?

The debate has slightly gone off topic Because you never read the post properly, i feel However if you would care to look back and Perhaps we can presume from there.

As is the nature of debate, I'm afraid. Unless I missed your previous answers to the questions I posed, I don't think I'm misreading anything.
My concern is this! Why do Muslims on here Talk about the protection afforded to those off the book When in all reality there is no such thing This is one instance off many atrocities to the very same . ie; Sudan, Egypt, Somalia, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi etc etc.. All have present day occurances Off Christan persicution, Raping n murder stories are many.
Are you then aware that the protection the Quran speaks off. Is not observed !!! Never was in the past either, Off which there are also numerous events to debate.on the matter , if you so wish ? Are you really in a stupid denial or just plain ignorant to the facts ....

I don't think it can really be called 'concern', perhaps 'line of attack' would be more suitable. As I've said before, I don't think you've read the Qur'an because if you had, you'd also know that it refers to people 'of the book' which refers to Christians and Jews. It talks of those groups of people being misguided, or misled, and asks Muslims to try and bring them to Islam or the Ummah. How can you assume that respect (not protection) for people 'of the book' isn't observed? And that it wasn't in the past? Certainly not by posting isolated incidents of violence. I repeatedly given my opinion, but I'll happily put it forward again - The Qur'an urges Muslims to gain understanding from its passages and not to rely on the interpretations of 'scholars' who may or may not have an agenda. It talks about Muslims who talk, act and look like Muslims but who aren't.

Lets stick to this subject matter for now. We can discuss other things later or on another thread if required. Altho i suspect most topics have been covered befor With ES and others....

Then stop taking the debate off on a tangent.

[zarah]

Here is yet another example off your Islamic protection off, ""The people off the book"" Raven...

""Ingy Adel, now 16, was abducted at the age of 12 on her way to school by being anaesthetized and bundled into a car. "I was taken into a room by a man called Sultan, who tied my hands behind my back and raped me," said Ingy. Four men followed Sultan in raping her, "I felt as each one of them raped me, that I was their enemy. They have beaten me ferociously." She said that for a whole month she was given drugs and raped, "more than 50 men raped me." After two months and only through the efforts of her father she was found and brought back home. When they reported the crime to the State Security she was beaten by the officer to change her testimony and say that she ran away from her family with her own free will. "Until today they have done nothing about it and will not do anything, because I am a Christian," sobs Ingy (see testimony).""


Right, we could all post isolated incidents of anything we fancy. There isn't any evidence that the security services won't help her 'because she's Christian', that's her perception of her experience.

I'd like you to show me than entrenched in Islam, no matter what country or culture, that disrespect and violence against Christians and Jews is a constant.. If you can't perhaps you should just move on to another line of attack

[mightyoak]

Right, we could all post isolated incidents of anything we fancy. There isn't any evidence that the security services won't help her 'because she's Christian', that's her perception of her experience.

I'd like you to show me than entrenched in Islam, no matter what country or culture, that disrespect and violence against Christians and Jews is a constant.. If you can't perhaps you should just move on to another line of attack

There have been many instances posted on here. Throughout my time on these boards I CANNOT BE BOTHERED to start re-posting stuff That you will only deny. And has for the testimonial off the girl in the link There is no reason for me too doubt her story.... Pehaphs if you were not so entreched your self things might become clearer

Do you know off a site on the web called C.E.M.B Council off ex muslims (apostates) Very interesting to read there testimonials too .

[scooby85]

aint in funny when the likes of eternal spirit and picha stop replying when they cant answer/debate!!

[octopusrex]

The Sufi writer Bawa Muhaijadden speaks of Islam as a religion of peace and nowhere does he speak of punishing folks for leaving Islam.

[picha]

No because he killed in order to defend himself and islam, he never murdered innocent people.

When you say he was definding islam do you mean the complete load of bollocks he made up which gave him a licence to do whatever he wanted?

[picha]

The Sufi writer Bawa Muhaijadden speaks of Islam as a religion of peace and nowhere does he speak of punishing folks for leaving Islam.

Well thats nice of him but the great mo himself unfortunately did:

Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

[scooby85]

When you say he was definding islam do you mean the complete load of bollocks he made up which gave him a licence to do whatever he wanted?

No in your delusional head it may mean that but what I meant is when islam came about, he had many enemies who wanted to kill him and destroy islam, he defended islam from these people.

The same with judaism and christianity..both had enemies who were killed in war

[scooby85]

Well thats nice of him but the great mo himself unfortunately did:

Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

If a hadith goes against what the quran says then that hadith is deemed invalid and the quran does not say kill apostates so therefore there is no punishment for leaving islam. The quran will always be the primary source, hadiths only compliments the quran, the authentic ones anyway

[orlibonurb]

Pagan religion of Islam is a death cult, let's take a look at Muslim countries,




Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.

Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.

Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.

Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.

Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.

Syria - The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.

Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.

Sudan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.

Pakistan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law

Qatar - Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.

Malaysia - Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.

The Maldives - In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.

[scooby85]

Pagan religion of Islam is a death cult, let's take a look at Muslim countries,




Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.

Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.

Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.

Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.

Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.

Syria - The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.

Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.

Sudan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.

Pakistan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law

Qatar - Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.

Malaysia - Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.

The Maldives - In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.

Source? preferebly a reliable one...

Firstly a country may have its own laws/cultures but i can tell you for a fact that the quran does NOT order the killing of someone who leaves islam..... I dont usually like having a discussion with someone who will only copy and paste but seeing as your knowledge is fairly limited i will in this case..

[orlibonurb]

This is widely known, in what world are you living in. Here's a start for you about Saudi Arabia,

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm


The country is a monarchy with a legal system based on Islamic law (Shari'a). Islam is the official religion, and the law requires that all citizens be Muslims. The Government does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not exist in practice. The public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited. The Government recognizes the right of non-Muslims to worship in private; however, it does not always respect this right in practice and does not define this right in law.



Islam, a pagan religion, following the pagan moon-god allah, preaches death and hate. Islam like every other pagan religion is straight from the pits of hell. Take a look at Muslim nations, that's all there is to see. They indocrinate their little adorable kids with death and hate towards everything and everyone. It matters not if you choose to protect a pagan death cult, it is what it is.

[scooby85]

A start for you about Saudi Arabia,

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm

Saudi is different to all the other muslim countries as it is the home of islam, would the vatican let muslims be a citizen in his country? or build mosques? i strongly doubt it, would Israel let muslims build mosques in their 'land'? dont think so..

The problem with you is that your not at all open minded, your very one sided and biased.

[scooby85]

Just noticed something.. youve been a member on this site for a couple of weeks and you already have 300 posts... only eternal spirit can have those sort of figures in here and you copy and paste just like him and highlight words in red just like him..is there something your not telling us??

Its either that or your on someones payroll!!


And now I am sure your eternal spirit.. funny how es's last post was around the time this account was made..about two weeks ago! hmmm very interesting!!!

So why did you do it? is it because almost everyone saw you for what you are? a pathological liar, who loves creating hatred and spreading falsehood.

p.s the moon god theory has been disproved many times.. read my previous posts

[orlibonurb]

- No, you just choose to defend that pagan death cult. Yes, I'm someone's payroll, He's called the KING of Kings and Savior Jesus Christ. The one the book of the Devil, the Quran, says He was nothing but a mere prophet. The one the Devil (being in charge of Muslim nations) let's not be preached at, to unsaved Muslims who follow the pagan moon-god allah. Jesus Christ is very well alive, not muhammad, not allah. Pagan religions preach you go to heaven by good works, that is a lie from the pits of hell.

Ephesians {2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: {2:9} Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How many more testimonies like this are needed. Look at this adorable girl's testimony. It's sad when folks are deceived into following pagan religions of the Devil and not the true Risen Son of God - Jesus Christ.

Muslim Parents Want To KILL CHRISTIAN DAUGHTER! (Rifqa Bary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toUNS4VPf2Q

[scooby85]

- No, you just choose to defend that pagan death cult. Yes, I'm someone's payroll, He's called the KING of Kings and Savior Jesus Christ. The one the book of the Devil, the Quran, says He was nothing but a mere prophet. The one the Devil (being in charge of Muslim nations) let's not be preached at, to unsaved Muslims who follow the pagan moon-god allah. Jesus Christ is very well alive, not muhammad, not allah. Pagan religions preach you go to heaven by good works, that is a lie from the pits of hell.

Ephesians {2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: {2:9} Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How many more testimonies like this are needed.

Muslim Parents Want To KILL CHRISTIAN DAUGHTER! (Rifqa Bary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toUNS4VPf2Q

Ooh jesus, you mean the 'sun of god'? Its been proven that jesus was not the son of god nor did he die on the cross, just like the quran told us 1400 years ago.

Look dont even try to discuss islam v christianity.. did you watch the jakir naik and dr willaims discussion? the one where jakir ripped the christain scholar to peices?

And jus because a muslim family tried to kill their daughter cos shes a christain doesnt mean islam allows it dickwad

[orlibonurb]

Will you wake up from your deep trance buddy. I posted DOZENS of videos, showing HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of cases. I posted the law from Saudi Arabia alone. What will it take for you to understand the pagan religion of Islam preaches hate and death.

It denies the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,


what

a

surprise.



wait, wait

I really am surprised.







not.

[scooby85]

[QUOTE=orlibonurb;1058526394]

It denies the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,


what

a

surprise.



what, the same death and resurrection that correlates perfectly with christmas and astrology/stars? yeh it is a surprise..not!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw

So why did jesus bow down and prostrate in the manner muslims do so to god? If hes god he who is he worshipping? himself?? he was just a prophet like the rest of them, the illuminati modified it to say that he was the son of god/god to suit their purposes!

[eternal_spirit]

Just noticed something.. youve been a member on this site for a couple of weeks and you already have 300 posts... only eternal spirit can have those sort of figures in here and you copy and paste just like him and highlight words in red just like him..is there something your not telling us??

Its either that or your on someones payroll!!


And now I am sure your eternal spirit.. funny how es's last post was around the time this account was made..about two weeks ago! hmmm very interesting!!!


You're delusional boy, I am not orlibonurb. He follows that other Beardo dude Jesus. Would he like my avatar of a Hindu Goddess? erm no.
Reds not my scene I do orange. Or maybe you're colour blind, like you're blinded by religious brainwashing and cannot see that Islam is no good to man nor beast.
:D

[orlibonurb]

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5338/74482805.png

http://www.adjunct.diodon349.com/Attack_on_USA/satan_sign1.jpg


Hello Hinduism, Mystery Babylon religion.


Revelation {12:9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


and yes, the punishment for leaving Islam is death.

The consequences of leaving Islam in the USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C2ApyZD3o


All one has to do is to read the laws of Islamic nations towards those who abandon Islam.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/art_3360_1.jpeg


Hinduism is no better,

India: Hindu Persecution of Christians
http://scarlettcrusader.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/india-hindu-persecution-of-christians/

10,000 Christians Flee Hindu Persecution
http://www.aina.org/news/20080905212459.htm

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hindus%20persecution%20christ ians&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1

[scooby85]

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5338/74482805.png

http://www.adjunct.diodon349.com/Attack_on_USA/satan_sign1.jpg


Hello Hinduism, Mystery Babylon religion.


Revelation {12:9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


and yes, the punishment for leaving Islam is death.

The consequences of leaving Islam in the USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C2ApyZD3o


All one has to do is to read the laws of Islamic nations towards those who abandon Islam.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/art_3360_1.jpeg


Hinduism is no better,

India: Hindu Persecution of Christians
http://scarlettcrusader.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/india-hindu-persecution-of-christians/

10,000 Christians Flee Hindu Persecution
http://www.aina.org/news/20080905212459.htm

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hindus%20persecution%20christ ians&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1


NO THE PUNISHMENT IS NOT DEATH FOR MUSLIM APOSTATES>>HOW MANY MORE TIMES??!

yes people may practise it but they are not following islam as there are NO INSTRUCTIONS IN THE QURAN OF THIS BUT RATHER THE OPPOSITE...'THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION'

where as christianity its a bit different..

'according to Matthew 5:17-18 , apostates/renegades in Christianity must be put to death simultaneously'

[scooby85]

You're delusional boy, I am not orlibonurb. He follows that other Beardo dude Jesus. Would he like my avatar of a Hindu Goddess? erm no.
Reds not my scene I do orange. Or maybe you're colour blind, like you're blinded by religious brainwashing and cannot see that Islam is no good to man nor beast.
:D




Sorry iv decided im not going to talk to pathological liars anymore, theyre a waste of space.. And if you want proof il post many links of you lieing..

AND IF your going to call me one at least bring some evidence forth as i do with you :rolleyes:

[orlibonurb]

Satan wrote the Koran.

Walter J. Veith Islamic - Catholic Connection - Full Lecture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zvYTpf0qC0


Do you think the Bible has anything to say about Muhammad ? lol. Funny isn't it, how the Koran has ALOT to say about Christ Jesus of Nazareth, so has the Babylonian, satanic inspired, Talmud.

Both the Babylonian Talmud and the Koran are not about the Jews and Muslims respectively, they are about denying Jesus Christ.

[orlibonurb]

Ok, so I was just taking a bath and thinking about Muslims, lol.


This thought came to my mind about them, "calling for Allah is the same as you calling for a bus driver to fix your tooth problems".

This is what happens when you call out on the name of CHRIST JESUS OF NAZARETH, dozens of testimonies below,

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97708


So, I came back and youtube'd for "allah testimony", and what I found on the 1st page alone was videos upon videos of former Muslims, talking about what happened to them when they called on Jesus.

Good stuff.

Acts {4:10} Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. {4:11} This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. {4:12} Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

You know, the same Christ Jesus the Koran denies ?! Uh huh.

[eternal_spirit]

Can you two take you Jesus vs Muhammad debate elsewhere. (start your own thread)

[scooby85]

Satan wrote the Koran.

Walter J. Veith Islamic - Catholic Connection - Full Lecture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zvYTpf0qC0


Do you think the Bible has anything to say about Muhammad ? lol. Funny isn't it, how the Koran has ALOT to say about Christ Jesus of Nazareth, so has the Babylonian, satanic inspired, Talmud.

Both the Babylonian Talmud and the Koran are not about the Jews and Muslims respectively, they are about denying Jesus Christ.

That video doesnt prove anything, theres no solid evidence just mainly theories and we know what they can be like..theres theories about everything! the world being hollow, the world being flat, the aliens creating us etc, come forth with real evidence then people might take you seriously..

And islam doesnt deny jesus you thick twat, do you know anything about islam??

The only thing it denies is that jesus was not the son of god, which happens to coincide with astrology/pagan stories..and you have the cheek to say the quran was written by satan? haha :rolleyes: oh dear...

[scooby85]

Ok, so I was just taking a bath and thinking about Muslims, lol.


This thought came to my mind about them, "calling for Allah is the same as you calling for a bus driver to fix your tooth problems".

This is what happens when you call out on the name of CHRIST JESUS OF NAZARETH, dozens of testimonies below,

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97708


So, I came back and youtube'd for "allah testimony", and what I found on the 1st page alone was videos upon videos of former Muslims, talking about what happened to them when they called on Jesus.

Good stuff.

Acts {4:10} Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. {4:11} This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. {4:12} Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

You know, the same Christ Jesus the Koran denies ?! Uh huh.

what, the same 'sun' of god that you worship or the same sun of god the egyptians worshipped? help me out im a bit confused...
It doesnt deny jesus, it says hes a prophet just like thousands of prophets who came before him

[turquoisefire777]

it amazes me to see that there are people who cannot seem to see that islam is just another brick in the wall, just like so many other organised religions etc.

it's like:
"yuh, uh, wull, utleast wuh not purt uf stupud [insert religion of choice other than islam]!"

and anyway, islam has already started to fall into an irreversible retrograde. tough shit.

[orlibonurb]

what, the same 'sun' of god that you worship or the same sun of god the egyptians worshipped? help me out im a bit confused...
It doesnt deny jesus, it says hes a prophet just like thousands of prophets who came before him


You are confusing it with Roman Catholicism my Muslim brother.

(and I can feel a bit of "zeitgeist" pro new world order religion propaganda too)


Allah - the Moon God
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Islamic%20Muslim/moon_god.htm

[scooby85]

[QUOTE]You are confusing it with Roman Catholicism my Muslim brother.

(and I can feel a bit of "zeitgeist" pro new world order religion propaganda too)


So you dont believe that jesus is the son of god??


Allah - the Moon God
[url]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Islamic%20Muslim/moon_god.htm

I dont understand why you keep using the same old bullshit when i have personally debunked it throughly?

It's funny how some anti-Islamics claim that Muslims worship a moon god when Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran directly refuted this: "Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore God, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve. (The Noble Quran, 41:37)"

Im guessing you got the moon god from these verses from the quran..:

053.019
Have ye seen Al-Lat and 'Uzza,

053.020
And another, the third (goddess), Manat?







Christians love to quote these two verses and then stop, the question we must ask such Christians is why do they stop there? Is their holy spirit too afraid to quote the rest of the passages? Since Christians claim to be inspired by the holy spirit then what is the holy spirit hiding here? Hers the rest of the passage christians conveniently ignor:

053.021
What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?

053.022
Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!

053.023
These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

So had the Christians care to carry on, they would see that Allah exposes them making such a lie! Allah tells them that they the pagans have invented these false idols, and that it is something corrupt.

So back to the drawing board im afraid..try again! :rolleyes:

Oh and did you know that even in hebrew and Aramaic use the word Allah for god? Jesus (pbuh) even called god 'Allah' so he was worshipping the moon god too huh?

[scooby85]

Heres the surah in full if you still have any doubt :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sVx8iAm224&feature=related

1.40 - 2.35 mins for those verses

[eternal_spirit]

Can you two take you Jesus vs Muhammad debate elsewhere. (start your own thread)
Well will you? This thread is not about Islam vs Christianity and whatever it is you two are debating. Either get back on topic or take it elsewhere.

[eternal_spirit]

Quote an English man in Sauidi

In Saudi Arabia you will be arrested for displaying any Christian symbol (crucifix around the neck etc), or behaving in any sort of a Christian "manner", such as singing hymns. Women are routinely whacked with the camel whips of the Matawah, the religious police, for offending their code of female modesty, as in anyone caught carrying on commercial transactions during "prayer time". Travel is allowed between your compound and your place of work, with permits required to travel elsewhere, including the requirement for a permit TO LEAVE the place. At the time I shook the dust of the rathole from my boots in November, they were approaching their 100th execution. I recall the case of a couple of European (Scottish I think), liquor dealers who were supposed to have been involved in a turf war and to have killed a couple of other dealers. I didn't believe a word of the accusations against them. The penalty was "partial beheading" (don't ask), followed by crucifixion. It didn't happen in the end, but consider, are these penalties having any place in a civilised country????????

In the UAE you need to prove your freedom from HIV or TB for a residency permit. To start any business there you need a "local partner", who is in for a negotiable share of the take. You need your employers permission to hire accomodation, obtain a liquor license, buy/ register a car. As an alien you cannot buy one square inch of territiory. If you injure anyone in a road traffic accident you are placed in jail for the duration of their stay in hospital. During your incarceration you will not be fed by the authorities and will starve if you do not have friends prepared to bring you food. Your education will be well catered for, as you will learn how to wipe your bottom with your finger, in the absence of the appropriate toilet paper.

These considerations are just some of the many applied to aliens in muslim countries.

Does anyone think that if SOME or ANY of these restrictions were placed on our unwelcome additions over here, that there would be such an infiltration of alien lifeforms.

I visited the middle east a couple of times, about twenty years apart, the second time out of curiousity to see if they were finding a way out of their self-imposed chaos, they weren't.

I was paid both times to waste my time in this region of the world. I will never return as I do not wish to further assist their policy of world domination.

It is a total mystery to me why anyone wishes to spend money to go on holiday to one of these repressive, regressive hellholes!

[eternal_spirit]

Quote a London Lady

I'm a Londoner and have seen my once friendly neighbourhood almost completely taken over by Muslims in the past ten years. All my neighbours are now Muslims and, despite our initial efforts to be neighbourly (take in parcels for them when they are out, help them out with various problems, say "hello" etc) they now treat us with absolute contempt. There has been a definate shift in the way they now view us since their numbers in this particular area have increased. They now ignore us, say hello to each other, chat with each other but stand and turn their backs when we walk past them in the street/ignore us/show aggression etc. There is an agenda and those who think otherwise will soon change their minds when their areas start to be affected.

We are hoping to move this year - we can't remain here any longer. We have already endured racist behaviour, I have been spat at and hissed at by Muslim women when I am out walking my dog in the park, we had a direct threat by one young Muslim man who said he was going to burn our house down and the same man later tried to attack my husband. Despite ringing the police, the police didn't even turn up but rang us back two hours later to say that they didn't have the resources to help us. We've had our car vandalised, eggs thrown at our house - our neighbours on one side who are refugees from Afghanistan who are living in a nice private house via the taxpayer, treat us like dirt! They are living off benefits while we have to go out and work, and they (and their eldest son in particular, who is only 12) treat us like we are scum (and I am a well travelled and well educated woman)! I have had Muslim men in all their garb confronting me about Islam and giving me lectures etc. It's a living nightmare..

[eternal_spirit]

Jihad Snuff Videos

Note also in the following videos how the congregation shout 'Allahu Akbar' as the Kafir's blood begins to flow.

Video1 (http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2008)

Video2 (http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=1860)
These are typical of the ' jihad snuff' videos being shown in mosques referred to in the Guardian article. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/jan/27/september11.afghanistan)

As with many primitive peoples it is the shedding of blood that gets them excited. The blood is seen as a libation to Allah. To quote the eminent Islamic theologian Abu Hamza al-Masri (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4616968.stm) "There is no liquid loved by Allah more than the liquid of blood" "Whether you do it by the lamb, or you do it by a Serb, you do it by a Jew, you do it by any enemies of Allah," he said. That drop of blood "is very dear."

So whereas Christians give offerings of fruit at harvest festivals and lights at Christmas and Candlemas, and Buddhists give offerings of lights, flowers, fuits and water to the enightened beings, the jihadists give offerings of human blood and shattered body parts to their stone age tribal totem (http://islamicdanger2u.blogspot.com/2009/11/triumph-of-islam-how-tribalism-trumps.html).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n_EQh7s_bg0/Szv86TJjgQI/AAAAAAAAAnY/CcTJ13TMfo0/s400/islamophobia-rally.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n_EQh7s_bg0/Szv86TJjgQI/AAAAAAAAAnY/CcTJ13TMfo0/s1600-h/islamophobia-rally.jpg)




Ritual murder & human sacrifice in Islam.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058544149#post1058544149

[eternal_spirit]

« Islamic Riot in Alexandria againist Christians - Time Line (http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2005/10/22/islamic-riot-in-alexandria-againist-christians.html) | HomePage (http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/) | Links to other International Sites confirming what happened ... We are not exaggerating » (http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2005/10/23/my-christian-blood.html)
23 October 2005

EXCLUSIVE VIDEOS AND IMAGES destroyed Churches and Burned Bibles

http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2005/10/23/muslim-blogger-comments-about-what-happened-in-alexandria.html

[picha]

Jihad Snuff Videos

Note also in the following videos how the congregation shout 'Allahu Akbar' as the Kafir's blood begins to flow.

Video1 (http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2008)

Video2 (http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=1860)
These are typical of the ' jihad snuff' videos being shown in mosques referred to in the Guardian article. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/jan/27/september11.afghanistan)

As with many primitive peoples it is the shedding of blood that gets them excited. The blood is seen as a libation to Allah. To quote the eminent Islamic theologian Abu Hamza al-Masri (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4616968.stm) "There is no liquid loved by Allah more than the liquid of blood" "Whether you do it by the lamb, or you do it by a Serb, you do it by a Jew, you do it by any enemies of Allah," he said. That drop of blood "is very dear."

So whereas Christians give offerings of fruit at harvest festivals and lights at Christmas and Candlemas, and Buddhists give offerings of lights, flowers, fuits and water to the enightened beings, the jihadists give offerings of human blood and shattered body parts to their stone age tribal totem (http://islamicdanger2u.blogspot.com/2009/11/triumph-of-islam-how-tribalism-trumps.html).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n_EQh7s_bg0/Szv86TJjgQI/AAAAAAAAAnY/CcTJ13TMfo0/s400/islamophobia-rally.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n_EQh7s_bg0/Szv86TJjgQI/AAAAAAAAAnY/CcTJ13TMfo0/s1600-h/islamophobia-rally.jpg)




Ritual murder & human sacrifice in Islam.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1058544149#post1058544149




That even sent a chill down my spine and I thought nothing about pisslam could shock me anymore.