Show explaining the mind

[adamadam]

http://www.humanmind.org/

[cruise4]

Dianetics - or weed out those with Psychpathic tendancies for future development and career advancement. I've seen it in action first hand.

Didn't watch the video though.

[chris]

You do realise that's a Scientology promotional video?

[adamadam]

Dianetics - or weed out those with Psychpathic tendancies for future development and career advancement. I've seen it in action first hand.

Didn't watch the video though.

You were did a good job to steer clear of it. It's highly dangerous.

[adamadam]

You do realise that's a Scientology promotional video?

Actually it's a promotional video for Dianetics, a body of knowledge in which the problems of the mind have been solved.

[chris]

Actually it's a promotional video for Dianetics, a body of knowledge in which the problems of the mind have been solved.

Dianetics the bible of scientology

[adamadam]

Close. Dianetics is the body of knowledge that solved how the mind works. Scientology is an applied religious philosophy that includes Dianetics as one of it's tools.

[chris]

Close. Dianetics is the body of knowledge that solved how the mind works. Scientology is an applied religious philosophy that includes Dianetics as one of it's tools.

Just like Christianity is an applied (lightly speaking) religious philosophy that includes the bible as one of its tools:D

[adamadam]

Well it's an attempt at an analogy at least. :)

[chris]

Are you for Dianetics?

What’s your position on Scientology?

[adamadam]

I am totally for Dianetics. I understand why it works and I've had a bit of Dianetics auditing and know that it does work. All problems are basically problems of the mind!

I'm for Scientology too. Scientology is all about ridding insanity from the world and especially removing us from the barriers imposed by governments and those who seek to suppress us. It's about improving the conditions of all of mankind and enabling each individual to attain spiritual knowledge, NOT belief.

Everything in Scientology is designed to do something. So you can easily observe whether it's true or not.

[chris]

I have no problem with the beliefs of scientology, most religions are pretty far out.

But I don't like an organisation that uses lawyers and security guards to the extent they do.

I also don't believe an EEG machine is an accurate indication of level of stress.

[adamadam]

I can understand that.

[soglad]

Woah, woah, woah. Scientology, back away people.

[chris]

I do agree with scientology on things such as psychiatry and the fact you have to detox the body (although I would go about it a different way).

I also think a lot of people who protest it are biggots who are not much more than bullies. Although some do have very good points.

[adamadam]

I also think a lot of people who protest it are biggots who are not much more than bullies. Although some do have very good points.

Agree with both of these statements. Regarding the 2nd statement I'd say that any point that seems valid against Scientology falls down when you have a bit more information to consider. At least that's been my experience in every single case - and I approached Scientology very thoroughly.

Taking your earlier point about lawyers - assume for the sake of argument that you have a very positive religion but that there are some negative people who for whatever reason don't want you to succeed in empowering people at large. If they produce slanderous and libellous information is it better to allow them to do so if you could stop them by legal proceedings? Is it better to allow a government to ban your religion when you can force them to uphold this right from the UN universal declaration of human rights by using a lawyer?
Is it better to allow someone to take away the rights to the books you have written yourself or to stop them by taking them to court?

I'm sure you agree with my points here - but is there something else you meant by extent of using lawyers?

[chris]

Agree with both of these statements. Regarding the 2nd statement I'd say that any point that seems valid against Scientology falls down when you have a bit more information to consider. At least that's been my experience in every single case - and I approached Scientology very thoroughly.

It’s interesting that you approached Scientology not the other way around.

I don’t claim to be an expert and you obviously will be more knowledgeable on these issues than I am…

This interview is quite revealing on the inside of the Sea org…

http://www.xenutv.com/interviews/astra-1.htm

Taking your earlier point about lawyers - assume for the sake of argument that you have a very positive religion but that there are some negative people who for whatever reason don't want you to succeed in empowering people at large. If they produce slanderous and libellous information is it better to allow them to do so if you could stop them by legal proceedings?

Well this is where I draw the line. I pretty much think lawyers are the scum of the earth. My philosophies have been persecuted, buried and burned at the stake for hundreds of years yet I don’t want some politically correct lawyer coming to my rescue…I don’t believe people should try to recruit no matter how good their beliefs are. If there is something really is good enough to proselytise for then it wouldn’t need proselytism as people will come to it out of interest and discernment.

Your hypothetical is also a bit misleading...As the 'positive religion' is portreyed by being persecuted by the 'negative people'...Scientology maybe positive in some respects, it is also let down in other areas. These negative people might have problems but some of these negative people might be relatives that have lost family members to scientology. It's not the bad in the people that's attacking the good in scientology, it's the good in the people trying to get rid of the bad in scientology. Although if you ask me I'd just say leave them be.

Is it better to allow a government to ban your religion when you can force them to uphold this right from the UN universal declaration of human rights by using a lawyer?

Well Scientology isn’t banned or going through that process, it’s just not recognised as a religion but a cult (under the EU). If they do try to ban it then obviously you should do what you can to be able to practice your religion.

Is it better to allow someone to take away the rights to the books you have written yourself or to stop them by taking them to court?

Do what you can...

I'm sure you agree with my points here - but is there something else you meant by extent of using lawyers?

Yes there is actually…There have been people threatened by lawyers for protesting Scientology and even speaking to it negatively on message boards. There are scientologists have also done quite obviously liable things to try to intimidate them by claiming assault and threatening legal action.

It’s not just that but there are many clips online with where Scientology uses their security guards to intimidate people by taking photo’s of them. This is what I mean by the negative side to Scientology, I don’t care about your beliefs or them practising their religion but some of them are extremely militant and it throws Scientology into a bad light.

Another criticism of it I have is that it seems to get a grip on people really strong through emotional blackmail. They make the process of getting out extremely hard (sea org) and always have personal details as a blackmailing tool.

[davelove]

Actually it's a promotional video for Dianetics, a body of knowledge in which the problems of the mind have been solved.

so (IL)L. ron hubbard has "solved" the mysteries of mind?? how can i get him my credit card details?? and all that i own??

RUN AWAY!!!

Psychiatry Is the industry of death. they got that much right. and i have to say i like some principles of dianetics but DO NOT like scientology.

wasnt he a satanist/mason too?? Course he f**kin was!!

[adamadam]

It’s interesting that you approached Scientology not the other way around.

I don’t claim to be an expert and you obviously will be more knowledgeable on these issues than I am…

This interview is quite revealing on the inside of the Sea org…

http://www.xenutv.com/interviews/astra-1.htm

You just can't trust an anti-scientologist site to give you any meaningful information on Scientology. I know dozens of Sea Org members well. I know dozens of ex-Sea Org members who felt it was just a bit too tough for them. Being a Sea Org member is something radical that not even all Scientologists can live up to. And you can't have a bunch of people being as effective and dedicated as Sea Org members are unless they are all extremely willing and sure of their purpose.


Well this is where I draw the line. I pretty much think lawyers are the scum of the earth. My philosophies have been persecuted, buried and burned at the stake for hundreds of years yet I don’t want some politically correct lawyer coming to my rescue…
Well I'd agree that a lot of lawyers are greedy and that many are virtually amoral. But I don't understand why you would rather be burned at the stake than get help from a lawyer. Why is that?


I don’t believe people should try to recruit no matter how good their beliefs are. If there is something really is good enough to proselytise for then it wouldn’t need proselytism as people will come to it out of interest and discernment.

I agree that no good comes from forcing people to do something they don't want to do. I do think that enlightening people is a good thing though if you have something useful to tell them.


Your hypothetical is also a bit misleading...As the 'positive religion' is portreyed by being persecuted by the 'negative people'...Scientology maybe positive in some respects, it is also let down in other areas.
The whole aim of Scientology is to better the conditions of existence - in other words to make this universe as good a place as possible.
These negative people might have problems but some of these negative people might be relatives that have lost family members to scientology.
As a Scientologist taking care of your family and getting on with them is an essential principle to adhere to. Scientology principles are workable and it wouldn't be workable universal principle that people should leave their families to make the world a better place.

It's not the bad in the people that's attacking the good in scientology,
Not always. Sometimes it's misinformation spread by anti-social people leading to decent people attacking Scientology (when if they knew what it was about they wouldn't attack).


Yes there is actually…There have been people threatened by lawyers for protesting Scientology and even speaking to it negatively on message boards. There are scientologists have also done quite obviously liable things to try to intimidate them by claiming assault and threatening legal action.

A principle in Scientology is "Don't create antagonism".

It’s not just that but there are many clips online with where Scientology uses their security guards to intimidate people by taking photo’s of them. This is what I mean by the negative side to Scientology, I don’t care about your beliefs or them practising their religion but some of them are extremely militant and it throws Scientology into a bad light.

But of course it depends on your source. You wouldn't have to be a genius to show the Red Cross in a sinister light. And saying that Scientology is bad is just as silly as saying the Red Cross are. When I was 17 a particularly small and scrawny acquaintance was extremely rude and offensive verbally and physically with utterly no provocation to a very large guy dressed up as Winnie the Pooh who was collecting for charity in a very friendly and jovial manner. The kid was highly effective in his provocation and the guy ripped off his costume head and grabbed this kid by his throat. I'd be appalled if a Scientologist acted like that, but the fact was that the guy collecting for charity was a very decent bloke and our acquaintance was a nutter. It would have looked quite different to someone who only saw the latter part of the encounter. (It was pretty damn funny to watch the whole event.)


Another criticism of it I have is that it seems to get a grip on people really strong through emotional blackmail. They make the process of getting out extremely hard (sea org) and always have personal details as a blackmailing tool.
I understand what you've heard. Catholic priests also have personal details as a "blackmailing tool". That's hardly why personal details are involved though!

[adamadam]

so (IL)L. ron hubbard has "solved" the mysteries of mind?? how can i get him my credit card details?? and all that i own??

That's not necessary. :) Actually if you have a friend, a copy of Dianetics and some dedication that's basically all you need to "Clear" the reactive mind.


Psychiatry Is the industry of death. they got that much right. and i have to say i like some principles of dianetics but DO NOT like scientology.

Got you. But actually, saying you don't like Scientology equates to saying you don't like knowledge, people thinking and observing for themselves or people working ethically to create a better world.

If you're a fan of David Icke you should have the reality that Authority is far from always reliable, that there is a lot of propaganda of various sorts out there and that the most reliable source is your own direct observation.

[chris]

You just can't trust an anti-scientologist site to give you any meaningful information on Scientology. I know dozens of Sea Org members well. I know dozens of ex-Sea Org members who felt it was just a bit too tough for them. Being a Sea Org member is something radical that not even all Scientologists can live up to. And you can't have a bunch of people being as effective and dedicated as Sea Org members are unless they are all extremely willing and sure of their purpose.

You have to watch the video; all my answers are in there. This girl has been destroyed by Scientology(or her branch)…The site might be bias but she was telling the truth. I’m not saying all people are destroyed, I can imagine some have been greatly enhanced by it…But it does validate my points about how manipulative it can be (even before Sea Org).


Well I'd agree that a lot of lawyers are greedy and that many are virtually amoral. But I don't understand why you would rather be burned at the stake than get help from a lawyer. Why is that?

Back in the day people were burned but that is not the case today nor so with Scientology.


I agree that no good comes from forcing people to do something they don't want to do. I do think that enlightening people is a good thing though if you have something useful to tell them.

I’ve seen leaked footage of conversion packs, extremely militant.


The whole aim of Scientology is to better the conditions of existence - in other words to make this universe as good a place as possible.

As a Scientologist taking care of your family and getting on with them is an essential principle to adhere to. Scientology principles are workable and it wouldn't be workable universal principle that people should leave their families to make the world a better place.

But that’s what Christianity says and Buddhism says and all the other religions it doesn’t mean that all their followers adhere to it and there have been many people who have severed contact with their families because of pressure from the church.


Not always. Sometimes it's misinformation spread by anti-social people leading to decent people attacking Scientology (when if they knew what it was about they wouldn't attack).

Like you said, ‘Not always’ I am also excluding those people that attack scientology because they love to find something to ridicule or some self-righteous fetish but as you said ‘not always’ means that there is part which are demonstrating on the right grounds.





A principle in Scientology is "Don't create antagonism".

But of course it depends on your source. You wouldn't have to be a genius to show the Red Cross in a sinister light. And saying that Scientology is bad is just as silly as saying the Red Cross are. When I was 17 a particularly small and scrawny acquaintance was extremely rude and offensive verbally and physically with utterly no provocation to a very large guy dressed up as Winnie the Pooh who was collecting for charity in a very friendly and jovial manner. The kid was highly effective in his provocation and the guy ripped off his costume head and grabbed this kid by his throat. I'd be appalled if a Scientologist acted like that, but the fact was that the guy collecting for charity was a very decent bloke and our acquaintance was a nutter. It would have looked quite different to someone who only saw the latter part of the encounter. (It was pretty damn funny to watch the whole event.)

Well the Red Cross is a sinister organisation fuelling the poverty agenda but that’s a different issue. But the same is true, the lower level people are predominantly unaware and want to do something of value.

If you can find where I say Scientology is bad then please show me, I try to be careful when speaking about this kind of stuff not to be black or white. I bet you can’t find another post of me on a religion attacking thread because I usually stay well away from them. I got into this one by accident because I thought you posted the link unaware of it's scientology connection.


I understand what you've heard. Catholic priests also have personal details as a "blackmailing tool". That's hardly why personal details are involved though!

These are good sources, from people inside the church who it took all their effort to leave. Yes the catholic priest has the honour to be in that position too…

As far as the teachings go, I have a little e-meter (not exactly the same). I bought it for meditation and I gave up on it because I didn't think it gave very accurate feedback on the state of my mind. I found simply going alone without technology to be far more accurate if I listened properly.

[john white]

I am totally for Dianetics. I understand why it works and I've had a bit of Dianetics auditing and know that it does work. All problems are basically problems of the mind!

I'm for Scientology too. Scientology is all about ridding insanity from the world and especially removing us from the barriers imposed by governments and those who seek to suppress us. It's about improving the conditions of all of mankind and enabling each individual to attain spiritual knowledge, NOT belief.

Everything in Scientology is designed to do something. So you can easily observe whether it's true or not.

Its not "Scientology": Its psychiatry in a dress. All that Hubbard did was nick the core of psychiatry, stick it in a religous camoflage, rip people off blind for it, and rubbish the opposition: thats becuase he was a huckster: and here you are, living proof that theres always another punter

Do yourself a favour, go and get some library books out on basic psychiatry, and learn for free everything that "Scientology" can possibly offer you: then top it off by going to find some decent spirituality that isnt just about pandering to the ego self

[adamadam]

You have to watch the video; all my answers are in there. This girl has been destroyed by Scientology(or her branch)…The site might be bias but she was telling the truth. I’m not saying all people are destroyed, I can imagine some have been greatly enhanced by it…But it does validate my points about how manipulative it can be (even before Sea Org).

Maybe, maybe not. The structure of ethics and justice within Scientology is well designed and explained in Introduction to Scientology Ethics. It is well designed to ensure no one can abuse power. And my experience is that it works like that - LRH wrote dozens of publicly available Policy letters setting out how the church operates. If someone violates that Policy then you will get recourse. I'm not saying that mistakes have never been made, but they are always corrected if someone takes the responsibility to make that happen. For whatever reason this girl seems to think damaging the reputation of Scientology is more important than trying to put right whatever violations of policy happened to her (if indeed there were any). However I can totally understand how someone like that can be convincing if you don't know how the church operates.


But that’s what Christianity says and Buddhism says and all the other religions it doesn’t mean that all their followers adhere to it and there have been many people who have severed contact with their families because of pressure from the church.

What I can say here is that when someone starts on staff they are quickly acquainted with the policy letter which says that if someone tells you do something that seems stupid it probably is and you should consult the relevant policy. No one can give you an order that violates policy. Policy about severing contact with families is that you should use all the wide range of techniques available to get them to stop abusing you, and only sever contact if they absolutely refuse. It's absolutely not allowed to sever contact just because you're too lazy or not responsible enough to do everything possible to put the situation right. All this is pretty much common sense.


Like you said, ‘Not always’ I am also excluding those people that attack scientology because they love to find something to ridicule or some self-righteous fetish but as you said ‘not always’ means that there is part which are demonstrating on the right grounds.

What I meant is that is that people only attack Scientology for 2 reasons - 1) they are anti-social, 2) they have false information about Scientology. It is possible someone could come into contact with someone calling themselves a Scientologist who actually has understood a thing about it who does strange things. That I'd class as part of the 2nd category.


If you can find where I say Scientology is bad then please show me
I didn't mean to imply you did.



These are good sources, from people inside the church who it took all their effort to leave. Yes the catholic priest has the honour to be in that position too…
Well if you've come into contact with Scientology you don't have to be a genius to understand the basic principles, see that Scientology works and that Scientologists are doing an amazing amount of good things over the world. If I had a grudge against a specific part of Scientology or a specific person I certainly wouldn't go around telling people who don't know what Scientology is how bad it is. I would see to it that it got put right.


As far as the teachings go, I have a little e-meter (not exactly the same). I bought it for meditation and I gave up on it because I didn't think it gave very accurate feedback on the state of my mind. I found simply going alone without technology to be far more accurate if I listened properly.
As you said - it wasn't exactly the same. You do need to be trained to use an e-meter accurately.

[chris]

I'm surprised that you admit that disconnecting from your family is practiced (albeit last resort).

Power corrupts so saying there are rules and guidlines in place to stop abuse is a bit naive.

Have you watched that interview with Astra I posted? If you do, I'll buy a copy and read Dianetics (with an open mind).

[adamadam]

I'm surprised that you admit that disconnecting from your family is practiced (albeit last resort).
I don't think it's strange, just like a woman shouldn't stay with an abusive husband.


Power corrupts so saying there are rules and guidlines in place to stop abuse is a bit naive.

Well the organisation of Scientology is expertly designed and generlly the only real power people have is the power to follow policy (which covers all aspects of the organisation).
Maybe power corrupts, but do you know the mechanism behind that well enough to explain why and in which cases it wouldn't corrupt?


Have you watched that interview with Astra I posted? If you do, I'll buy a copy and read Dianetics (with an open mind).

Sounds like a good deal. How about I'll watch it if you agree to get Dianetics and that if there's anything you disagree with or don't understand you ask my opinion before continuing futher in the book. Deal?

[chris]

Maybe power corrupts, but do you know the mechanism behind that well enough to explain why and in which cases it wouldn't corrupt?

The only way to not let power corrupt is to fight everyday for your own power without infringing upon anyone elses.

Sounds like a good deal. How about I'll watch it if you agree to get Dianetics and that if there's anything you disagree with or don't understand you ask my opinion before continuing futher in the book. Deal?

Okay, I'll buy a copy of Dianetics from Amazon, to prove I am reading it I'll keep you updated. I give it a good read, I won't caste judgment upon it until after reflecting on it for a while and then I'll write my honest opinion but you must watch that interview along these parameters...

1. That she is telling the truth and not rationalising that she's just attacking Scientology.

2. You must comment on the interview but only the facts, no rationalising or making conspiracy theories against the church.

If you have any parameters then just say...

[chris]

I just bought a copy from amazon (used) for £4 something...Should arrive soon.