Define both; love and honesty

[jake49]

(replace, "Define" with "discuss" if you wish...)

I really hope there's a response to this! but I have a feeling it will disappear down the page with no replies :P... but where I'm at right now in my life... these are two things which I value so much and am fascinated to explore and apply to everything. Would love to hear any responses!

Of course I don't pretend I can tell you what to do or set rules... but I'd like to 'encourage' (for use of a better word) that if you do comment on what someone else has discussed, please answer the question yourself also! ;)

[arty2000]

(replace, "Define" with "discuss" if you wish...) I really hope there's a response to this! but I have a feeling it will disappear down the page with no replies :P... but where I'm at right now in my life... these are two things which I value so much and am fascinated to explore and apply to everything. Would love to hear any responses!Of course I don't pretend I can tell you what to do or set rules... but I'd like to 'encourage' (for use of a better word) that if you do comment on what someone else has discussed, please answer the question yourself also! ;)to me they are the same:)

[metacomet]

Love is giving fully of yourself or offering yourself fully. Anyone who has been in a loveless relationship will agree. A loveless relationship involves people holding back from one another or even oppressing the other individual.

This is similar to honesty. Honesty is giving fully of yourself, whether it is the truth or your opinion. If you hold back, and only offer half of the truth - that is not honesty. If you hold back and only offer half of your opinion - that is not honesty. Sometimes dishonesty can seem an only option however.

Love and honesty are pretty much entirely related. We are denied both throughout our lives in order to test our willingness to seek these things out by ourselves. When we do, we then face the test of whether or not we ourselves are willing to offer love and honesty to others.

Most of us are always holding back on these things.

[jake49]

Whoa, awesome stuff :D

Most of us are always holding back on these things.

I really like how you ended it with that too. I think this is really significant.

to me they are the same:)

In some pretty big ways, yes I agree :)
I know they can be discussed individually also in different contexts <---- you'll probably agree with that?

[tjohn]

Define both; love and honesty In one word, Unselfishness

[jake49]

Of course I don't pretend I can tell you what to do or set rules... but I'd like to 'encourage' (for use of a better word) that if you do comment on what someone else has discussed, please answer the question yourself also! ;)

Oops... hahahah...

Well... I have loads of different rambling things to say about them which probably is all nonsense... so I want to listen more heheh. But just to touch on one thing about love and honesty... I won't try and define them.
But just discuss one point.

People have a lot to say and do... But if they don't have love and honesty for themselves... or love and honesty with people around them... or love and honesty in what they're saying or doing...
Then they're not saying or doing much at all.

Speaking to myself too there of course ;)

[tjohn]

Oops... hahahah...

Well... I have loads of different rambling things to say about them which probably is all nonsense... so I want to listen more heheh. But just to touch on one thing about love and honesty... I won't try and define them.
But just discuss one point.

People have a lot to say and do... But if they don't have love and honesty for themselves... or love and honesty with people around them... or love and honesty in what they're saying or doing...
Then they're not saying or doing much at all.

Speaking to myself too there of course ;)Well they could be doing much - they could be doing much harm. But what was your point in starting the thread, that implies what should be obvious?

[i_am]

Love is not something you feel. It is something you are. It is uncondiontional but to reach that state of awareness, one must be honest with oneself, accept responsibility, forgive onesself and let go of the baggage.

The rest is easy.

IMHO :)

[metacomet]

In one word, Unselfishness

Hmm. That's pretty damn concise right there.

Is it the ego that prevents us from expressing love and honesty? Surely must be. And the ego is the source of all selfishness.

[tehuti]

True Love is not a feeling or an
emotion, but rather an intelligence and a discipline; True Love is Divine. And Divine
Love is greatest intelligence of all.

[arty2000]

Love is not something you feel. It is something you are. It is uncondiontional but to reach that state of awareness, one must be honest with oneself, accept responsibility, forgive onesself and let go of the baggage.

The rest is easy.

IMHO :)

nice:):)

[jake49]

Loving all the responses! nearly all of it makes sense to me and aligns with things I've began to see myself more clearly.

I have a bit of a rant/ramble/babble... you might need to pick the sense out of the nonsense to understand it, I'm not too great at writing concisely and often write a paragraph where a sentence would work!.... but I want to throw it out there and if anyone has any comments, I'm cool with that. I think a lot of points people have made can be related to this in different ways.

What I recognise in me... is that when I was younger... I had certain experiences where I had to function in a certain way, the only way I understood as a child to learn to function to survive and cope... I didn't feel I could be me or that I was loved for being just me... I was faced with a different reality which I had to adapt to, in order to cope.

There would have been significant moments where the trauma was overwhelming... and the only answer to move forward, was the strength drawn from fear... Fear gave a strength to frantically look for ways to cope, ways to avoid being so overwhelmed with shock that I couldn't function.

All the while, not learning to just 'be' and the freedom in that... because then, being loved for who I am wasn't enough to cope with my reality and experiences..... But now, on my journey, I've know it is enough..... but I still have the thought processes from then!... the fear, like a weed sprouting out of the surface of my consciousness... while the root deeper in me remains unmoved, unresolved.

So this pattern carries on today, in a more complex way. Sure, I've learnt to be myself more and different things.... But there is still such a huge part of me, where I don't give myself fully to things... education systems, relationships, music, work... everything... and instead this same fear motivated thinking, causes me to think and worry about things I don't need to think or worry about.

So, I want to look into these things... perhaps find a way of entering significant moments of overwhelming trauma... perhaps these are the some of the roots of fears which give birth to deceptive realities/paradigms/thought structures, projecting onto so many things I experience... and so completely limiting those experiences...
these 'roots' from experiences led me to develop dysfunctional ways of thinking, which I needed to 'become'... which isn't who I am... but who I had to be back then to... to cope, survive and just function in a way that wasn't "shaking in the corner" for the rest of my life..... I had to find strength from somewhere... but what was strength then... has become my weakness, my limitation, my dysfuntion. So it needs to go! as I've been journeying especially for the last 8 years to resolve on greater levels.

So next step appears to be to see this counselor I phoned up, next week... to explore resolving/facing the traumatic experiences as a child... Hopefully with some real significant steps!...
People say, "It doesnt happen over night you know!".....
my response to that is, "Ye, I know, I've been going through it over a couple of decades so far"... with a lot more focus on journeying to my own freedom in the last 8 years... exploring all kinds of things...
Which have led to love and honesty.

and I reckon there's some real breakthroughs on the way. If this counselor isn't the right person... I'll keep looking!... Freedom from conformist thought, one way or another. The only other time I've ever seen a 'counselor' is just before I left my university course 3 months ago... I saw this lady 4 times for 40 minutes each time.... and it took a lot for me to go... as I have been used to dealing with things and exploring things in other ways...... I didn't like the idea of someone bringing all their ideas and philosophies and "counselor school" stuff at me.... but the experience was the opposite... they listened and helped me understand things in my own way.

So, at the moment, I'm looking to resolve something which I hope will release new levels of honesty and love for myself and other people... and the things I do... being who I am... not what other influences in me and the world around me, conform me into thinking I have to be.

[brian]

(replace, "Define" with "discuss" if you wish...)

I really hope there's a response to this! but I have a feeling it will disappear down the page with no replies :P... but where I'm at right now in my life... these are two things which I value so much and am fascinated to explore and apply to everything. Would love to hear any responses!

Of course I don't pretend I can tell you what to do or set rules... but I'd like to 'encourage' (for use of a better word) that if you do comment on what someone else has discussed, please answer the question yourself also! ;)

Love and honesty, it's a lot of things, hard to define. If you love someone, you wont hurt their feelings, but you want to tell them the truth too. I suppose one would do everything in their power to protect them too... hmm, this is a good one, hard to answer!! :-D

[miracles]

honestly there isnt a lot of love around.

Love is a doing word, a verb, so is honesty. Love is shown through actions, not words, as is honesty. These are traits that can only be demonstrated through actions.

Love and honesty is something you do. Not something you say or are. Someone will say you are honest because of what you do, not because of who you are. If you are honest, it is only manifested in what you do, or do not do as the case may be.

If you want to be pedantic - then yes loving and honest words can be spoken, but they are meaningless without action. In actual fact , life is an action program, we sould be called human doings instead of human beings.

But if you want to go biblical which I'm sure you dont - we will be judged for every thought action and word. What we are is fallen, and without Christ we wont even make it to the judgement seat to be judged for our actions.

So, we can even act and speak honestly and lovingly but what are the thoughts behind it, they may be purley selfishly driven, so the wrong thoughts/motives will cancel out the actions and words and be burned as stubble.

Humans judge love and honesty by actions, God will judge it by motive and intent.

Here endeth the lesson.

You can read more of my writings in my up coming book intitled - "How to dissapear up your own arse and know everything"

Honestly, people are starved of love, which is evident in the amount of credence placed in the love thread on this very internet forum. I find this saddening, not the thread, just the facts this may be the only place some poor lonely souls can hear the words "I love you"

Intsead of creating a new carbon currency, why not create a Love and Honesty and Trust currency and economy. It ought to be worth more and it ought to be bankable

God loves you so much

[kuro]

'Love' in the popular use of the word is an emotional state - it is compassion combined with attachment and ego. It can easily turn to hate.

Love in the true sense of the world is immovable, unconditional compassion and understanding without ego.


Honesty is the breaking down of one's socialized barriers - the sharing of one's true emotions.

:)

[miracles]

Well they could be doing much - they could be doing much harm. But what was your point in starting the thread, that implies what should be obvious?


What is the point in starting any thread? :mad:

[jake49]

Well they could be doing much - they could be doing much harm. But what was your point in starting the thread, that implies what should be obvious?

can you expand on everything you said there, I'm not sure what you mean :)
I have a lot to learn about this subject and I'm interested in exploring it and reading what people have to say. I also believe it should be focused on more in religions which claim one of the fundamental things about it to be about love and honesty... and also see how that applies to pretty much everything.

Please expand on what you asked... because I'm happy to look into my own motives for this and things I may not see, that I'm getting wrong? as you 'seem' to be implying?

Among other things it's points like this I wanted to hear:


So, we can even act and speak honestly and lovingly but what are the thoughts behind it, they may be purley selfishly driven

This is why I put this in the 'Religion' area...
Because religion is a typical place where what Miracles said there (which I've taken out of the context of what he/she may have been saying)... often happens on a complex level... and really challenged me in how I approach exploring ideas, religions, beliefs... everything...

So I'm exploring the ideas that something of this pattern also applies to everything... right down to peoples motives in researching David Ickes material... and posting on a forum... of course challenging myself in all of this too. I'm exploring the idea that if we do things overlooking love and honesty... then we're possibly doing something meaningless, while carrying something unresolved in us, that could possibly need more of our energy and focus, than what we choose to put our energy and focus into.

David Icke said this within a context of what he was talking about... so I'm taking one small piece of something he said... but the words are interesting:

We can think love, we can think hate,
we can create a world dominated by hate and fear,
or we can create a world dominated by love, compassion.
It's just a choice,
and we all have the opportunity to do that.

Many religions talk about love... and if that religion has some form of sacred scriptures... often one of the most fundamental things it's supposed to be about is love and honesty.
But, that seems to get overlooked... and what appears to be patterns of the world rooted in pretty much the oposite: fear... seems to be behind it.... and so with the nature of fear, which causes people to want to hide... behind complex and carefully developed masks that have been constructed to become a believable reality... perceptions built on deceptions... paradigms and structures of thought projected out from a foundation of deception... creating an illusion..... an illusion to believe... an illusion for others to perceive.

Like in the Truman show.... where the producers of the show instill a fear into him for water when he was young by writing into the script of his existence a scene where his father drowns on a sailing trip. This creates fear of going beyond the limitations of the island... which is where Trumans truth is.
Only when he experiences true love, everything else doesnt seem real.... for years he sneaks into his basement, taking cuttings of magazines... and pieces together a picture of the woman he fell in love with... Years back, when this woman tried to tell Truman that the world as he knew it wasn't real, it was a TV show... the producers made an order to have her immediately removed... dragged away for Truman to never see again. But Truman couldn't let go of this love, it was more real than anything he had experienced...

In George Orwell's 1984, there's one scene where the woman (can't remember her name) says, "They can't do that, its the one things they can't do, they can torture you, they can make you say anything, but they can't make you believe it, they can't get inside you, they can't get to your heart"

This was the same for Truman... however they tried to make this false reality real... it couldnt get to his heart like this love had. The more he held onto what he knew was true... the more the falseness around him began to crack and fall apart.... he was even able to overcome his fears which limited him within his false reality... and journey out to seek his truth.

But what religion often does... as is seen in patterns all over the world, in all kinds of things... is create many different kinds of Truman Show sets... which have the appearance of reality and "life"... but are not. The more people who get together and agree that, "yes! the town hall is there!" and "Yes! the bridge is there, the shop is there, the roads are there"... the more believable it becomes for people. Love and honesty are things which are opposed with the mechanisms of so called, "Truth", "reason", "logic", "evidence"... etc... built into this complex illusion. It often has complex, illusive pretenses which pose as being of love and honesty....... but become clear that they are not... but only of fear.... designed to stabilise, reinforce, 'strengthen' the illusion.

David Icke:
"People do not rebel against being free, when they believe they are"

[jake49]

Well they could be doing much - they could be doing much harm. But what was your point in starting the thread, that implies what should be obvious?

I think I see what you mean by the first bit... by they 'could be doing much, they could be doing much harm'...

To explain that.

Yes, they could be doing much harm... While projecting out the pretense that they are doing much in love.
My point of saying, 'They're not saying or doing much at all'... I mean when measured against what they claim to be doing.
"not saying anything"... is actually a phrase where I'm from... so it was just a misunderstanding in language.
You can even say things like, "This food isn't saying anything"... if you went to some fancy restaurant and discovered you could easily cook what they're serving at home! :)...
It has the pretense of providing world class cuisine... but turns out to be nothing special at all... It's 'not saying anything'

But I don't understand what you're asking here still:
But what was your point in starting the thread, that implies what should be obvious?

[miracles]

Greater love has no man than this, than to lay down his life for a friend.

To expand on tjohns "unselfishness" is love which is true, but what is unselfishness?

It is as Christ showed us, to put the needs of others before our own, which, lets face it, is not very easy for us, if we are honest. What is God trying to show us here then.

It has to be this...

To be truely awakened or alive or enlightened, or what ever you want to call it, is to live your life for others, rather than for ourselves.

He who loses his live will gain it, he who trys to hold onto his life will lose it - How can you lose your life and gain? I think this could mean you are not truley alive until you give yourself away

Im useless at it, but I strive towards this ideal, because in it I know the answers and the true essence of why I am here in the first place is behind this very idea.

In other words it is all about you, it's not all about me, and in my service of you (my fellowman), I may very well find myself.

[jake49]

Greater love has no man than this, than to lay down his life for a friend.

To expand on tjohns "unselfishness" is love which is true, but what is unselfishness?

It is as Christ showed us, to put the needs of others before our own, which, lets face it, is not very easy for us, if we are honest. What is God trying to show us here then.

It has to be this...

To be truely awakened or alive or enlightened, or what ever you want to call it, is to live your life for others, rather than for ourselves.

He who loses his live will gain it, he who trys to hold onto his life will lose it - How can you lose your life and gain? I think this could mean you are not truley alive until you give yourself away

Im useless at it, but I strive towards this ideal, because in it I know the answers and the true essence of why I am here in the first place is behind this very idea.

In other words it is all about you, it's not all about me, and in my service of you (my fellowman), I may very well find myself.

I like the selfless definition of love and honesty.

This isn't a contradiction to what you're saying... just my added thoughts.

That in a lot of situations, actions focused on simply seeking what we perceive to be selfless, needs to be challenged with 'Is my action here an honest one in love?'...

I'm also aware of the other side to it, where someone/something offers you something out of what is perceived and they claim is out of 'love for you'... and which with a bit of exploration into where they're coming from... their agenda is quite different to that of love/honesty/selflessness.

In setting out to live for others and not for yourself, if there isn't love and honesty in that, as good as the intentions may be perceived to be, what you set out to do can become part of what is hate and fear... not love and compassion.

When I just mentioned about peoples agendas behind what they say is love... I was reminded of my own weakness. That in me, I put far too much energy and thought into looking for information which helps me protect myself from getting hurt and disillusioned. I mentioned before that I'm on a journey of resolving some experiences I've had, and how that gave me a fear causing me to protect myself, in what 'worked' at the time but actually was dysfunctional and to the detriment of my ability to be honest and love/receive love (which I've been working on since ;)). So I'm aware that this distrust effects a great deal of how I perceive everything... including religion or God.

In amongst my dysfunctional ways of doing things, there are some good things which I can't just let go of in an instant... as the day to day life continues and I need to function. But as steps are revealed in the search, I like to take those steps.. which can be scary... or can feel like what I perceive to be 'life' being taken away from me, bringing an emptiness... or can lead into dead ends where I find the same patterns of conformist thought behind the complex illusion of 'love'... and so learn things which can sometimes make me more awake/aware of some things and less ignorant.

In other words it is all about you, it's not all about me, and in my service of you (my fellowman), I may very well find myself.
I'm sure that this is very significant part of love and honesty. In the last 8 years, I've sort of turned up and been part of teams which work with people... It was part of my journey and was certain 'steps' I felt in my heart I wanted to take. I mostly did practical things to help.. working with youth, kids, homeless people, addicts, people in serious debt. While doing these things over the last 8 years, I discovered enough of myself along the way to let go of other self seeking, self centered things in my life which were really hard to let go of. All kinds of things which had value which only I can appreciate... but some might be able to relate... to things which had value which anyone who appreciates money, ego, pride, business success etc could understand. But I also knew with a clarity that these things had to go, because they weren't of love and honesty... to myself or other people... they were, as 'you' guys put it; selfish.

What I've found is that love and honesty seem to be some of the most solid things I have found... and a way of measuring my own actions and being aware of the actions of others.

Which is why I realise I have so much to learn and want to discuss this and hear what other people have found in their journey.

[miracles]

I like the selfless definition of love and honesty.

This isn't a contradiction to what you're saying... just my added thoughts.

That in a lot of situations, actions focused on simply seeking what we perceive to be selfless, needs to be challenged with 'Is my action here an honest one in love?'...

I'm also aware of the other side to it, where someone/something offers you something out of what is perceived and they claim is out of 'love for you'... and which with a bit of exploration into where they're coming from... their agenda is quite different to that of love/honesty/selflessness.

In setting out to live for others and not for yourself, if there isn't love and honesty in that, as good as the intentions may be perceived to be, what you set out to do can become part of what is hate and fear... not love and compassion.

When I just mentioned about peoples agendas behind what they say is love... I was reminded of my own weakness. That in me, I put far too much energy and thought into looking for information which helps me protect myself from getting hurt and disillusioned. I mentioned before that I'm on a journey of resolving some experiences I've had, and how that gave me a fear causing me to protect myself, in what 'worked' at the time but actually was dysfunctional and to the detriment of my ability to be honest and love/receive love (which I've been working on since ;)). So I'm aware that this distrust effects a great deal of how I perceive everything... including religion or God.

In amongst my dysfunctional ways of doing things, there are some good things which I can't just let go of in an instant... as the day to day life continues and I need to function. But as steps are revealed in the search, I like to take those steps.. which can be scary... or can feel like what I perceive to be 'life' being taken away from me, bringing an emptiness... or can lead into dead ends where I find the same patterns of conformist thought behind the complex illusion of 'love'... and so learn things which can sometimes make me more awake/aware of some things and less ignorant.


I'm sure that this is very significant part of love and honesty. In the last 8 years, I've sort of turned up and been part of teams which work with people... It was part of my journey and was certain 'steps' I felt in my heart I wanted to take. I mostly did practical things to help.. working with youth, kids, homeless people, addicts, people in serious debt. While doing these things over the last 8 years, I discovered enough of myself along the way to let go of other self seeking, self centered things in my life which were really hard to let go of. All kinds of things which had value which only I can appreciate... but some might be able to relate... to things which had value which anyone who appreciates money, ego, pride, business success etc could understand. But I also knew with a clarity that these things had to go, because they weren't of love and honesty... to myself or other people... they were, as 'you' guys put it; selfish.

What I've found is that love and honesty seem to be some of the most solid things I have found... and a way of measuring my own actions and being aware of the actions of others.

Which is why I realise I have so much to learn and want to discuss this and hear what other people have found in their journey.

Thank you for sharing your journey, its not easy to be as open and honest as you are being. I admire that. The healing power people get from councilling I believe is as simple as one human being talking to another human being, and not keeping things locked up inside. Airing and sharing is a good thing.

[danceswithbunnies]

"LOVE" and "HONESTY"
are words, often they are words that get preached exhaustively about and rarely practiced. (especially by the religious who claim to know better).

But then how can you practice honesty when your mind deceives &confuses itself with so many words and high sounding concepts?

It is like a dog barking at the reflection of the moon in a pond.

[jake49]

Thank you for sharing your journey, its not easy to be as open and honest as you are being. I admire that. The healing power people get from councilling I believe is as simple as one human being talking to another human being, and not keeping things locked up inside. Airing and sharing is a good thing.

thank you, of all the negative things I could be perceived as doing and rambling about, I appreciate that you see something positive somewhere in there! xD
and yes, "airing and sharing" is good! In the steps that make it possible in a good way.

[miracles]

thank you, of all the negative things I could be perceived as doing and rambling about, I appreciate that you see something positive somewhere in there! xD
and yes, "airing and sharing" is good! In the steps that make it possible in a good way.


You havent come accross as negative at all, not to me anyway. If you want to see some negativty, I can show some threads. Phew, but dont go there.

[jake49]

"LOVE" and "HONESTY"
are words, often they are words that get preached exhaustively about and rarely practiced. (especially by the religious who claim to know better).


Like in the Truman Show..... if in that massive TV show set... there was a Church building there...
People insist that it represents good and is the house of God... and the preacher there smiles at Truman and says, "God bless you"...
Often the same kind of thing is found with how you worded it there, "preached exhaustively about" (to give the heart enough reassurance for the illusion to be believable) "and rarely practiced" because there's a completely different agenda that motivated them to do what they are doing.

I don't mean to tar all religion and people with this same brush and generalise all under this..... but just something that clearly does happen on a massive scale. I've found that there are many examples of true love and honesty found in these places also.

But then how can you practice honesty when your mind deceives &confuses itself with so many words and high sounding concepts?


Yup... this is a biggy (that I'm stuck with too! and I'm not going to try and answer, just discuss further ;)). We're surrounded by a huge amount of "so called":
Knowledge, Information, Truth, Wisdom, Expectation, Conformist thought, Light, Reason, Logic, Understanding...

These perceptions can be projected from deceptions... and lead down roads where honesty and love aren't welcome.

I made a track a few weeks ago, the lyrics are:

I'm not where I want to be,
Just passing down this street.

Information leads to knowledge,
Knowledge leads to understanding
Understanding leads to wisdom
Wisdom leads to Truth,

Truth is the path
the path is the gate
through the gate is life
the gate is love

I'm not where I want to be,
Just passing down this street.

It's all an illusion
It's all an illusion
It's all an illusion
It's all an illusion

Take away the illusion
I know it hurts,
It will all be worth it.

Information leads to knowledge,
Knowledge leads to understanding
Understanding leads to wisdom
Wisdom leads to Truth,

Truth is the path
the path is the gate
through the gate is life
the gate is love

Don't if I'm talking lots nonsense! but I know it makes sense in some ways.

But then how can you practice honesty when your mind deceives &confuses itself with so many words and high sounding concepts?


Listen to your heart?
"for we believe not in what is seen, but what is unseen, for what is seen is transient, but what is unseen is eternal"...
A bit like that quote.... How I personally understand part of that... is meaning what is 'seen'.. is seen with our minds... what is 'unseen' is not with our minds... but with our heart.

Just ideas :P

[jake49]

You havent come accross as negative at all, not to me anyway. If you want to see some negativty, I can show some threads. Phew, but dont go there.

ok cool :) thanks.

Yes, the negativity is another reason to measure love and honesty against what someones saying.

Where there's a negative, strong flavor in something someone is saying, of a condescending attitude, ego, pride, belittling others, pointing out others faults... no ability to have empathy for someone else... and that if they did have something of truth/light/life to offer... instead of focusing thought/action/energy into making that accessible to someone, their focus is on being above said negative attitudes. Typically pointing at what others are getting wrong...

Identifying what they're doing for what it is... whether telling them or just something to think about and have peace with... is useful... and can be done by measure with love and honesty.

You said before about: Unselfishness...

This is just along the same lines... I believe on a path into truth/life/consciousness... what selflessly and naturally begins to happen is compassion for others, hate for injustice, protective love for innocence... seeing the best in yourself and other people... grace for others, empathy for others...

Their words to others will look for what will help and encourage, correct and guide, advise and counsel, inform and demonstrate....

So whoever is carrying on in a 'negative' way which has nothing of the nature of above said 'positive' things (of love and honesty)... isn't saying anything when it comes to truth... however impressive it sounds... they're in the business of deceiving themselves and others.

Often people who claim to be 'of' some pure religion react back at them with the same bitterness, hurt and fear...... because they too are in the business of deceiving themselves and others with high sounding stuff... and have no ability to see past that persons wounds.

All this is generalising and only in certain contexts. But I think kind of makes sense.

[tracker]

(replace, "Define" with "discuss" if you wish...)

I really hope there's a response to this! but I have a feeling it will disappear down the page with no replies :P... but where I'm at right now in my life... these are two things which I value so much and am fascinated to explore and apply to everything. Would love to hear any responses!

Of course I don't pretend I can tell you what to do or set rules... but I'd like to 'encourage' (for use of a better word) that if you do comment on what someone else has discussed, please answer the question yourself also! ;)

Love = essance of a human being .

honesty = Something that 99% of the world needs to learn .

:cool:

[danceswithbunnies]

Like in the Truman Show..... if in that massive TV show set... there was a Church building there...
People insist that it represents good and is the house of God... and the preacher there smiles at Truman and says, "God bless you"...
Often the same kind of thing is found with how you worded it there, "preached exhaustively about" (to give the heart enough reassurance for the illusion to be believable) "and rarely practiced" because there's a completely different agenda that motivated them to do what they are doing.

I don't mean to tar all religion and people with this same brush and generalise all under this..... but just something that clearly does happen on a massive scale. I've found that there are many examples of true love and honesty found in these places also.


There are people that have good actions and bad actions in every institution.

It has to do with the disposition of the heart rather than the words said.


Yup... this is a biggy (that I'm stuck with too! and I'm not going to try and answer, just discuss further ;)). We're surrounded by a huge amount of "so called":
Knowledge, Information, Truth, Wisdom, Expectation, Conformist thought, Light, Reason, Logic, Understanding...

These perceptions can be projected from deceptions... and lead down roads where honesty and love aren't welcome.

I made a track a few weeks ago, the lyrics are:

I'm not where I want to be,
Just passing down this street.

Information leads to knowledge,
Knowledge leads to understanding
Understanding leads to wisdom
Wisdom leads to Truth,

Truth is the path
the path is the gate
through the gate is life
the gate is love

I'm not where I want to be,
Just passing down this street.

It's all an illusion
It's all an illusion
It's all an illusion
It's all an illusion

Take away the illusion
I know it hurts,
It will all be worth it.

Information leads to knowledge,
Knowledge leads to understanding
Understanding leads to wisdom
Wisdom leads to Truth,

Truth is the path
the path is the gate
through the gate is life
the gate is love

Don't if I'm talking lots nonsense! but I know it makes sense in some ways.



Listen to your heart?
"for we believe not in what is seen, but what is unseen, for what is seen is transient, but what is unseen is eternal"...
A bit like that quote.... How I personally understand part of that... is meaning what is 'seen'.. is seen with our minds... what is 'unseen' is not with our minds... but with our heart.

Just ideas :P




What is that part of you that never changes?
What is that part of you that sees through a glass darkly,but then face to face?

Listen to your heart...it is the garden of good and evil.

speaking in the christian lingo:


The pure in heart shall see god.
To the pure all things are pure.

Pure is the word Katharos meaning purified by fire.
Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire

Luke 24:32
Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

[miracles]

I dont buy "it's an illusion" one iota. To believe that is the downward slippery slope to believing anything and therefor being open to being controlled.

I think its a very dangeorus concept indeed.

[metacomet]

Love = essance of a human being .

honesty = Something that 99% of the world needs to learn .

:cool:

Great summary.

Love is the part of ourself we are taught to repress the most... so yes, our repression issues do lead to dishonesty and only through honesty are we capable of giving that love back out.

[jake49]

I dont buy "it's an illusion" one iota. To believe that is the downward slippery slope to believing anything and therefor being open to being controlled.

I think its a very dangeorus concept indeed.

what was the context: "it's an illusion" was meant in?

[miracles]

what was the context: "it's an illusion" was meant in?

The context most people are using it in wher this forum is concerned is; life, existence, the world etc, is an illusion, which is rubbish.

Although I have to say that some peoples perceptions of reality, as in thier personal thoughts are obviously delusional, and I have to admit that sometimes my thinking, feelings etc do not line up with the truth/reality. As human beings we are all suseptible to thinking and believing untruth and non realities. Which is why the bible says guard your heart and thoughts and even guard what comes out of your mouth in the form of words.

[merlincove]

(replace, "Define" with "discuss" if you wish...)

I really hope there's a response to this! but I have a feeling it will disappear down the page with no replies :P... but where I'm at right now in my life... these are two things which I value so much and am fascinated to explore and apply to everything. Would love to hear any responses!

Of course I don't pretend I can tell you what to do or set rules... but I'd like to 'encourage' (for use of a better word) that if you do comment on what someone else has discussed, please answer the question yourself also! ;)

Love is that feeling of utter and absolute joy that you feel when you are being absolutely true to yourself and those who you care for. i don't think you need to have a correlation with someone to feel and connect with them in a vibration of joy - love makes you want to cry those tears of happiness that only come in the presence of pure beauty.

And honesty is accepting such a feeling and allowing it to flourish within, honesty is about being absolutely true to yourself and to everyone around you.

i'm not sure if the two concepts can exist independantly though, i think that they are very closely linked.

And combined, they have the power to change the world. Deal in anger and hate and you will recieve anger and hate in return, and so by the same measure deal with love and honesty and all around you love and honesty will flourish.

just my early morning rambles

night all ;)

[jake49]

The context most people are using it in wher this forum is concerned is; life, existence, the world etc, is an illusion, which is rubbish.

You replied that there's some kind of belief and definition of 'illusion' that people believe in, who write on this forum. The 'illusion' you were referring to when you said:
I dont buy "it's an illusion" one iota. To believe that is the downward slippery slope to believing anything and therefor being open to being controlled.

I think its a very dangeorus concept indeed.

But in other things you're saying... You make it clear that you do see another definition of illusion:
As human beings we are all suseptible to thinking and believing untruth and non realities.
(in this case non realities = one way illusion can be defined)

I'm not at all suggesting you are contradicting yourself... because I know you're not... but you have used what is essentially how 'illusion' can be defined... and both said it's rubbish and not rubbish... more or less. So I know you're meaning it in different ways... but I don't see what definition and context 'illusion' is rubbish in.
Is it that some people believe EVERYTHING... even things beyond the limitations of their own mind and understanding... they think everything is an illusion? and nothing is real?... even beyond themselves?
That, I agree, is rubbish...

I suppose I would need a specific example to know what you were referring to :)
To just use biblical references, as I know that's where you're coming from with a lot of things, which is all good... In my studies of the bible over the last 8 ish years, I've taken a few things which I hold onto, which have really spoken to me. Einstein said, "I am enthralled by the luminous character of the Nazarene, no myth is filled with such life"... and so have I found many things I've found in the bible... filled with so much life, wisdom, love, truth... and for the things people want to argue about.... I don't have time to enter into those arguments... only the things which speak life to me.

There's loads of things in the bible which speak about what can be described as referring to our illusive perceptions of, "life, existence, the world etc"
"I was blind and now I can see"
"I am the light of the world, those who choose to follow me will not stumble in the darkness, but have the light that leads to life"
"Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart"
"Do not be conformed to the patterns of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind and then you can perceive how good and pleasing and perfect the will of the Lord is"
"Speak things that are not, as though they were"
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts"
"For we know we are of God and the world is under the control of the evil one"
"I have much more to show you, more than you can bare right now, but he The Spirit of Truth will come, take you by the hand and lead you into all truth"...

There's loads more... but to take one idea of an 'illusion'... what I've heard people generally speak about as an illusion (having not been informed of meanings of illusion that you say some people mean) matches up quite well from a biblical point of view. In that illusion can represent, blindness, darkness, ignorance, a mind conformed to the patterns of the world - and as you said perceptions which are delusional...
So when you say it's rubbish when a lot of things people talk about 'illusions' in.. talking about: life, existence, the world etc..... are they not meaning the worlds and their own so called illusive perceptions of "life".. "existence".. "the world"... (emphasis on "...")
Or do you mean that people are making statements that beyond the limitations of what they can see, they state that there is no life, no existence, no world... that everything is an illusion?
cause ye, I agree, that is rubbish......

Anyway... you may be disagreeing with some things there... but I think we're agreeing on most points anyway... and pretty much saying the same thing on some points? I'm just missing the meaning of illusion you were referring to.

As human beings we are all suseptible to thinking and believing untruth and non realities. Which is why the bible says guard your heart and thoughts and even guard what comes out of your mouth in the form of words.

Bible: "Speak things that are not as though they were"... speaking things into being.
Bible: "Take all thoughts captive and make them obedient to Love"
The Secret ideas: "Thoughts become things" - The Law of Attraction.
common saying: "be careful of what you wish for"...

There's loads of things I've heard which supports what you're saying here... I can't remember other things at the moment... but I really agree about the idea of an awareness of what's going round the mind and out of the mouth... as it can create and manifest things into being - or into our reality. For good or for bad, right/wrong, good/evil, beneficial/unbeneficial... (whatever the right words are...)
I've heard even scientific explanations behind this, as well as ones of a spiritual nature or biblical... or other teachings/"wisdom".

[jake49]

Love is that feeling of utter and absolute joy that you feel when you are being absolutely true to yourself and those who you care for. i don't think you need to have a correlation with someone to feel and connect with them in a vibration of joy - love makes you want to cry those tears of happiness that only come in the presence of pure beauty.

And honesty is accepting such a feeling and allowing it to flourish within, honesty is about being absolutely true to yourself and to everyone around you.

i'm not sure if the two concepts can exist independantly though, i think that they are very closely linked.

And combined, they have the power to change the world. Deal in anger and hate and you will recieve anger and hate in return, and so by the same measure deal with love and honesty and all around you love and honesty will flourish.

just my early morning rambles

night all ;)

great early morning rambles! :D

I'm really liking the "being absolutely true to yourself and to everyone around you." part in particular (as well as everything you said)... and this journey is a big one!...
Martin Luther King said:
"The spirit of man does not move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within ones own bosom and in the surrounding world"
And nicking that idea... and applying it to what you said about, "being absolutely true to yourself and to everyone around you."
I've found the ways of the world, the conformist thought within ourselves and in the world around us..... can be a bit like standing in a river, and like you said, ""being absolutely true to yourself and to everyone around you." can be like going against the current.. And going against the current being like where Martin Luther King was saying, "does not move without great difficulty [going against] against all the apathy of conformist thought [the current] within ones own bosom and in the surrounding world"...

The conformist thought, which amongst other things moves against being true to ourselves and true to others around us. This 'current' is more with fear, leading to like you said, "Deal in anger and hate"... and so of course as you go with that current... like you said, "you will recieve anger and hate in return"... especially things of this nature, when you do things of the nature of love and honesty, being true to yourself and others around you. The resistance is massive... moving against it.. like I already quoted M.L.King, does not happen "without great difficulty"...
e.g. of many, when David Icke began what can be described as his own journey of breaking out of the 'current'... breaking out of the conformist thought within ones own bosom and in the surrounding world for the world to see...

David Icke:
"I couldnt walk down any street without being laughed at by most of the people. Going in a pub, there was an uproar. A comedian only had to say my name to get a laugh.
And what that does, is it reveals to you the level of immaturity that passes for adulthood in this country. Where by, clearly a man was going through an increadible experience.
And instead of being mature and saying, 'Why has this guy gone, from being this... what you would call a straight, normal television presenter, to how he is now, this is interesting, what's happening here?'... Instead, I heard the ripples of laughter 16 years on whenever my name was mentioned... people just laughed..
but the other thing, which gave me a real insight... especially what I'm doing now in my books... about how easy it is, for the few to control the many. You know, we laugh at sheep, because sheep just follow the one in front, 'Ha! stupid sheep!'... We humans have out-sheeped the sheep. Because at least the sheep need a sheep dog to keep them in line. Humans keep each other in line. And they do it by ridiculing or condemning anyone, who commits the crime...because that's what it's become... of being different.. [breaking out/going against the current]
I had a choice at that point... I could have ended up, faced with that scale of ridicule and ended up shaking in the corner [going with the current: fear]... or I could have said, as I did... 'Laugh! condemn! I don't give a dam... This is me... and if you don't like me, then that's bad news because this is the only me there is'.. and I refused to conform and be bowed by the ridicule... [going against the current]
And what it does, when you step out of the little box of, 'What will other people think?... How do I put this in a way that people won't think I'm crazy?.... You then realise how small a box you've actually been living in!"


This 'current', does not have love and honesty in it... but fear. One part of this fear, to take something Alex Jones said:
"is the central mode of control, make us feel pathetic, small"
So we feel utterly hopeless... and efforts to love and be honest, be true to ourselves and others around us... makes going against this current, difficult as Martin Luther King said... (with e.g. to David Ickes experience... and also loads we could all share about our own personal experiences)
Our own research and exploration into many things suggests that this 'current' that flows through the world, is designed. Amongst other things:
The bible says that "the world is under the control of the evil one"
David Icke refers to a "Hidden hand" saying that 'people do not rebel against being free, when they believe they are'..... where the current takes us so strongly the thought of freedom is almost non existent... so we accept the [David Icke] prison without bars... another angle on this 'current'.
In the context of what Alex Jones was saying, that I quoted:

Alex Jones:
it's time to stand up and realize, that we should NOT allow ourselves to be crammed into this rat maze. We should not SUBMIT to dehumanization. I don't know about you, but I'm concerned with what's happening in this world. I'm concerned with the structure. I'm concerned with the systems of control. Those that control my life, and those that seek to control it EVEN MORE! I want FREEDOM! That's what I want, and that's what YOU should want! It's up to each and every one of us to turn loose of just some of the greed, the hatred, the envy, and yes, the insecurities, because that is the central mode of control, make us feel pathetic, small, so we'll willingly give up our sovereignty, our liberty, our destiny. We have GOT to realize we're being conditioned on a mass scale.

How can we: wake up/stop going with the current/break out of this system of control/get free from the prison without bars/find the strength to move against all the apathy of conformist thought?
I'm really interested in this... I'm sure love and honesty have so much to do with it... and are worth exploring..... and everything people have been defining these as align with something so solid, something in my heart can hear the sound of truth in it... and is encouraging/empowering to keep going, keep searching.

It's a difficult journey... but an important one... but it's worth it, like you said when we deal in, "love and honesty and all around you love and honesty will flourish."...
Leading to an abundance of life... overflowing out of our life and into the lives of others... (like much of the material we have access to through other peoples research, which is encouraging and empowering to finding the strength to 'wake up'... or 'go against this current'... conformist thought, system of control, prison without bars...etc etc..
Which goes with a lot of things people have been talking about, that love and honesty is selfless/unselfish.. and thinks of others... loves people around you.

We've also lightly discussed the pretenses of 'loving' people... the many things we're surrounded by which offer "what YOU need in your life!"... which many people/organisations claim to do as part of their religion, company, organisation... but actually manipulate and interpret their religion/market/vision out of greed, self seeking, fearful, non empathetic, selfish actions... so we see nothing more than the same current...
with the common pattern of deception, hiding, mask wearing... creating an illusion of what is truth... a deception for us to believe..
William Shakespeare, "God hath given you one face and you give yourselves another"...

Love is that feeling of...

There's been different posts saying that love is not a 'feeling' and some that say love is a feeling...
But I don't think what people have said contradicts each other... but are all 'right' in their own way (for use of a better word) in the contexts they're meant in.
One thing seems to be clear, that the word 'love' we use cannot be encapsulated in one definition? can it?... but like we all have, discussed different angles on different meanings.

I think what you discussed (early morning rambles) was really good... and I'm especially interested in: "being absolutely true to yourself and to everyone around you." as I've tried to discuss further

thank you for your early morning rambles! :D

[miracles]

[quote=jake49;1035159]

I suppose I would need a specific example to know what you were referring to :)



Hi Jake, yes I see what you mean that what I am saying may appear contradictory. What I mean by the world is not an illusion is that...

Terra firma is not an illusion, and your body is not an illusion or your car or your house and the roads you drive on or the food you eat etc etc. I am talking about the physical not the metaphysical, although having said that people can be colour blind and see blue as green etc etc one can love the taste of a tomatoe one can hate it, if one wanted to, one could argue; colour blind people are right and tomatoes are disgusting and everyone else is wrong. Im not sure if one could prove in a court of law who is right. Because I am of the opinion that a majority does neccessarily equal truth or a reality.


Existentialists regard traditional systematic or academic philosophy, in both style and content, as too abstract and remote to from concrete human experience.

I conclude that the philosophy that everything is an "illusion" is an existentialist philosophy.

Obvioulsy people are free to adopt this philosphy however it is more a religion/philosophy than a reality and I am not sure if it bares much fruit towards a meaningful happy life. (my opinion only)

[jake49]

[quote]


Hi Jake, yes I see what you mean that what I am saying may appear contradictory. What I mean by the world is not an illusion is that...

Terra firma is not an illusion, and your body is not an illusion or your car or your house and the roads you drive on or the food you eat etc etc. I am talking about the physical not the metaphysical, although having said that people can be colour blind and see blue as green etc etc one can love the taste of a tomatoe one can hate it, if one wanted to, one could argue; colour blind people are right and tomatoes are disgusting and everyone else is wrong. Im not sure if one could prove in a court of law who is right. Because I am of the opinion that a majority does neccessarily equal truth or a reality.


Existentialists regard traditional systematic or academic philosophy, in both style and content, as too abstract and remote to from concrete human experience.

I conclude that the philosophy that everything is an "illusion" is an existentialist philosophy.

Obvioulsy people are free to adopt this philosphy however it is more a religion/philosophy than a reality and I am not sure if it bares much fruit towards a meaningful happy life. (my opinion only)

Interesting thank you! I'm going to read up a bit on existentialism now, my twin brother talks a lot about it.

I like what you're saying about the 'everything is an illusion' philosophy (as you call it... some say science... but I don't know what it is yet)... that in my own idea of what you said, that the Illusion Philosophy, you say is basically; not accurate/reality/truth?... Which, in my limited understanding, I agree on... I've heard things which don't resonate in my heart as being of truth (which is all I really have to go on with this, for now).... but other things which really do.

One thing I love about the illusion idea... where they say things e.g. like our bodies are an illusion etc..... I love that contrast with mind sets of this world declaring "knowledge" and "truth"... when this is saying, we don't know jack based on most things... our beings have been conditioned on a scale far, far beyond what we have accepted in our minds and the transformation in our minds that needs to take place is massive... much more than we have accepted. Not that other ideas don't say similar to that... but it's just how extremely the illusion idea does! and doesnt conflict with something I know is real: love

with David Ickes, 'Prison without the bars' idea..... to take my own idea of that.... I know the bars are there... I know the limitations are there...... I know that my own understanding is not enough and I need love and honesty to move forward into truth. So amongst the day to day things I do in my life, I pursue this idea of love and honesty for myself, with how I approach what I'm doing and with how I am with God and people... I know I have so far to go, but in some kind of a meaning, my vision is Love and I'm taking the steps I can towards that... it's the only thing which gives me the grace to do that also... that it doesn't seek conformism, but freedom. So I like one part of the "illusion philosophy" which I understand to be saying, "other than love, everything else is an illusion... it doesnt exist in itself, but is only a lack of love".

[miracles]

[quote=miracles;1038720]

Interesting thank you! I'm going to read up a bit on existentialism now, my twin brother talks a lot about it.

I like what you're saying about the 'everything is an illusion' philosophy (as you call it... some say science... but I don't know what it is yet)... that in my own idea of what you said, that the Illusion Philosophy, you say is basically; not accurate/reality/truth?... Which, in my limited understanding, I agree on... I've heard things which don't resonate in my heart as being of truth (which is all I really have to go on with this, for now).... but other things which really do.

One thing I love about the illusion idea... where they say things e.g. like our bodies are an illusion etc..... I love that contrast with mind sets of this world declaring "knowledge" and "truth"... when this is saying, we don't know jack based on most things... our beings have been conditioned on a scale far, far beyond what we have accepted in our minds and the transformation in our minds that needs to take place is massive... much more than we have accepted. Not that other ideas don't say similar to that... but it's just how extremely the illusion idea does! and doesnt conflict with something I know is real: love

with David Ickes, 'Prison without the bars' idea..... to take my own idea of that.... I know the bars are there... I know the limitations are there...... I know that my own understanding is not enough and I need love and honesty to move forward into truth. So amongst the day to day things I do in my life, I pursue this idea of love and honesty for myself, with how I approach what I'm doing and with how I am with God and people... I know I have so far to go, but in some kind of a meaning, my vision is Love and I'm taking the steps I can towards that... it's the only thing which gives me the grace to do that also... that it doesn't seek conformism, but freedom. So I like one part of the "illusion philosophy" which I understand to be saying, "other than love, everything else is an illusion... it doesnt exist in itself, but is only a lack of love".

If you consider the reality of NOW ie No Other Way, in actual fact you don't have far to go at all. You are already there/here and you always will be, why? Because there is no other way. Tomorrow never comes, meaning the future will never arrive, you arent going anywhere. The past is an illusion as is the future. NOW is reality. A common answer to... "how are you"? is "Im getting there" Oh, where are you going...? No where, you cant run away from now, any more than you can run away from yourself. Another common saying is "Im going to get away from it all for a while" Oh really, how are you going to do that?

How do you like them apples? This is a spiritual, physical and biblical reality, the bible is full of this sort of thing. Eternity is now. Today is the day of salvation, now is the hour, give us this day our daily bread etc etc.

I dont believe that everything other than love is an illusion, that is nothing more than wishful thinking.

[jake49]

[quote=jake49;1039466]

If you consider the reality of NOW ie No Other Way, in actual fact you don't have far to go at all. You are already there/here and you always will be, why? Because there is no other way. Tomorrow never comes, meaning the future will never arrive, you arent going anywhere. The past is an illusion as is the future. NOW is reality. A common answer to... "how are you"? is "Im getting there" Oh, where are you going...? No where, you cant run away from now, any more than you can run away from yourself. Another common saying is "Im going to get away from it all for a while" Oh really, how are you going to do that?

How do you like them apples? This is a spiritual, physical and biblical reality, the bible is full of this sort of thing. Eternity is now. Today is the day of salvation, now is the hour, give us this day our daily bread etc etc.

I got this book: The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Do you recommend it? I'm going to start reading it this week I think.

How do you figure that one out with out a pair of rose coloured glasses on?

Not sure what you're saying/asking :)

To answer what I think you're saying... although I'm guessing there might be a statement behind a rhetorical question there or something.. I'm not sure heheh...

I don't think it's possible to not have rose tinted glasses on is it? that would suggest perfection of sight in every sense of the meaning? spiritually, emotionally, mentally etc

[miracles]

[quote=miracles;1039561]

I got this book: The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Do you recommend it? I'm going to start reading it this week I think.



Not sure what you're saying/asking :)

To answer what I think you're saying... although I'm guessing there might be a statement behind a rhetorical question there or something.. I'm not sure heheh...

I don't think it's possible to not have rose tinted glasses on is it? that would suggest perfection of sight in every sense of the meaning? spiritually, emotionally, mentally etc

I deleted that sorry, not sure how people can read deleted parts of posts. Oh well. I was saying how do you figure everything that isnt love is an illusion?

Regarding the book, I haven't heard of it so cant recommend it. I highly recomend the bible. Start with the Gospel of John, Psalms and Proverbs. The creator of the universe wrote it for us, you any or may not have heard of him, most people refer to him as God for shorty.

[jake49]

[quote=jake49;1039613]

I deleted that sorry, not sure how people can read deleted parts of posts. Oh well. I was saying how do you figure everything that isnt love is an illusion?

Well... it's just an idea really, more than anything I think is absolute.
First of all in that statement/idea... what do I mean by 'love'?

In a way, that is something I am searching for... where love could mean Truth... Life... God..... all sorts of other words which describe something I have a longing to search for.

Ok... so just more ideas.... not to be taken in every context or in a way that they encapsulate everything that I mean... but as an idea:
Light and Darkness are two things which we experience with our natural senses. The difference scientifically between the two, is that Light can be measured and exists in itself. Where as Darkness in itself cannot be measured because, in itself, it is only a 'lack' of light. So any measurement of Darkness is actually a measurement of Light. Darkness is the varying absence of Light.
The same is with heat and coldness... heat can be measured and exists in itself... but Coldness (in the same way as Darkness is to light) is the absence of Heat.
So all these things are experienced by us... Light, Darkness, cold and heat...
and something of the same idea can be applied to the idea of Good and Evil. We can experience good and evil... but the idea/theory (whatever) is that evil in itself is only an absence of good/truth/love.

So I am just applying this same idea to Love and Illusion.

I know some people apply this as an answer to, "If God is all loving, all good then why did he create Evil?"....
Where someone might say, "God created all that is Good... Evil is where there is an absence of Good/love/truth/God"...
This idea might say that God has given us choice and what allows us to experience what we call 'Evil'... is our choice to create an absence of love/God/Truth/Light.
If we remove some earth from the ground... the absence of earth can be called a hole...
But in itself, what is it but the absence of earth?

If "Satan" as described in the bible is the 'father of lies'... and his only power is the power to deceive... then his evil/deceptions/lies is to create the illusion by creating the shadows/or absence of: love/light/truth/God.

But apart from all that.... I just define Love to be what holds everything together... it's in us... it's in everything.... but a great deal of what we perceive is a bit like what we call a 'hole'..... in itself it isn't anything but a lack of ground..... and so in the same way what is an absence of love/life/Truth... is an illusion... we experience that illusion... we perceive it... we are effected by it... but in itself we have defined something which is only a lack of love.

Again... what I mean by love is something I'm still searching for.

But to say something from the Bible: "If you do not know love, you do not know God, because God is love"...

Although, I still don't understand things as they are. That's the journey I guess.

[miracles]

[quote=miracles;1039662]

Well... it's just an idea really, more than anything I think is absolute.
First of all in that statement/idea... what do I mean by 'love'?

In a way, that is something I am searching for... where love could mean Truth... Life... God..... all sorts of other words which describe something I have a longing to search for.

Ok... so just more ideas.... not to be taken in every context or in a way that they encapsulate everything that I mean... but as an idea:
Light and Darkness are two things which we experience with our natural senses. The difference scientifically between the two, is that Light can be measured and exists in itself. Where as Darkness in itself cannot be measured because, in itself, it is only a 'lack' of light. So any measurement of Darkness is actually a measurement of Light. Darkness is the varying absence of Light.
The same is with heat and coldness... heat can be measured and exists in itself... but Coldness (in the same way as Darkness is to light) is the absence of Heat.
So all these things are experienced by us... Light, Darkness, cold and heat...
and something of the same idea can be applied to the idea of Good and Evil. We can experience good and evil... but the idea/theory (whatever) is that evil in itself is only an absence of good/truth/love.

So I am just applying this same idea to Love and Illusion.

I know some people apply this as an answer to, "If God is all loving, all good then why did he create Evil?"....
Where someone might say, "God created all that is Good... Evil is where there is an absence of Good/love/truth/God"...
This idea might say that God has given us choice and what allows us to experience what we call 'Evil'... is our choice to create an absence of love/God/Truth/Light.
If we remove some earth from the ground... the absence of earth can be called a hole...
But in itself, what is it but the absence of earth?

If "Satan" as described in the bible is the 'father of lies'... and his only power is the power to deceive... then his evil/deceptions/lies is to create the illusion by creating the shadows/or absence of: love/light/truth/God.

But apart from all that.... I just define Love to be what holds everything together... it's in us... it's in everything.... but a great deal of what we perceive is a bit like what we call a 'hole'..... in itself it isn't anything but a lack of ground..... and so in the same way what is an absence of love/life/Truth... is an illusion... we experience that illusion... we perceive it... we are effected by it... but in itself we have defined something which is only a lack of love.

Again... what I mean by love is something I'm still searching for.

But to say something from the Bible: "If you do not know love, you do not know God, because God is love"...

Although, I still don't understand things as they are. That's the journey I guess.

God is reality

[steevo]

True Love is not a feeling or an
emotion, but rather an intelligence and a discipline; True Love is Divine. And Divine
Love is greatest intelligence of all.

God is love, and love is god.

[jake49]

God is love, and love is god.

God is reality

Love: I am the Light of the world, those who choose to follow me will not stumble in the darkness but have the light that leads to life.