Is Islam Hated from ignorance?

[adbasque]

I had to start this thread to see how many people actually hate Islam and why?

I have noticed recently or even years ago, the mention of the word Islam or Muslims causes controversy, the question is why so much negative views towards Islam

Majority of people speaking about Islam or who give negative views are usually have had some kind of personal experience with someone who's from an Muslim faith or simply from what they learnt from the media, websites and so on.

What is astonishingly hypocritical, is the way people jump at the first occasion whenever Islam or Muslims are involved directly or indirectly, before acquiring any proof, they start showing their hate and despise purely based on what they heard or been told.

Most people were programmed to have a quick negative reaction as soon as Islam is mentioned.
Before even trying to find out if it's true or not, for any other people, creed, religions, they ask for proof, they seek to find out if the allegations are true or false.

When a crime is committed in the west, the person is accused as an individual if an alleged crime is committed by an alleged Muslim

People usually don't even bother to try and find out how it happened, whether the individual is really a Muslim, if the case why he/she did it?

I was born in this country to a Christian family (now all Muslims) I had pretty much the same views about Islam not to that extent, I've always tried to be rational, impartial, unless I have an irrefutable (evidence) proof that the crime was indeed committed by a Muslim only then I can judge the person, not the entire Islamic civilisation.

People seem to forget a Muslim is human being like any other human being, with his weaknesses, with his natural instincts, with his human characteristics.
Why I get the feeling that a Muslim has no rights to a mistake?
It's ok when it's someone other than a Muslim.

I watch there's an endemic view of Islam across the board, very few people come up with rational approaches to any situation that involves Islam or a Muslim.

I want to know

What is it that people are afraid of?
Aren't we afraid of the unknown?
When we ignore something we try and find out what it is, get to know it before we make any judgements.

History as we know it, half of it is a lie, most people don't realise it
If only people care to look and find out what Islam's contribution to the modern world as we know today, in absolutely every aspect of our lives.

Sometimes I laugh when people talk about democracy, human rights, freedom of speech.

What they seem to forget, there are no Muslim countries, they are called Muslim countries, with a very corrupt leaders across the Islamic/Arab world.

Do you actually think it was pure coincidence that all of these leaders in the Muslim world happened to be corrupt and dictators by pure chance?

The reason for that is because, most people in the west, don't know the truth, the average person only recently heard about Islam etc.. the majority heard of the Islamic world post 9/11.

They knew there were Muslim countries, and they are backward people, they beat their wives, mutilate their children, stone their criminals, cut hands and so on.

What they don't know is this, the same people who stone let's say a homosexual for instance, they come to Britain or the USA, they spend millions of dollars in one night.

They gamble, they drink, they have homosexual orgies, they hire prostitutes males and females, they spen a huge amount of money here in the west.

Back home they are the judges, the jury and the executioner, who put them in power in the first place and more importantly why?

Why do people ignore this fact, does it suit you in a way?
Every single Muslim/Arab country has a corrupt government, deliberately put there by the western rulers (Jesuits) if you like.

Their aim is to stop Islam anyway they can, if people can think for a second, if they think the Jesuits are behind everything, what makes them think that Islam is part of it?

Why are they fighting it tooth and nail from every angle? Or is it just pure coincidence again?

The media has done nothing in the last 40 years but tarnish Islam, Hollywood is another source, magazines, news papers, radios, schools, websites, constantly attacking Islam.

Novelists, writers, so called "historians" while we know that history of nations, civilisations has been greatly altered, hiding all the facts from their own people.

Naming all the western scientists, never a mention of Muslim scientists until some Muslims started to shed lights on every invention as we know it today.

From medicine to physics to poetry, to maths, astronomy, astrology, geology etc.. etc..

Most surgery tools we use today have been copied from the early Islamic hospitals, the first hospital was invented (created) by the Muslim doctors, endless medical books and entire encyclopaedias were translated from Arabic to Latin and then to many different western languages.

You don't have to take my word for it, I know you wouldn't, but go and find out for yourselves.

Why do you think the Vatican was placed where it is now? the idea was to stop Islam from spreading northward, no other reason, but that didn't stop them to send their scientists to learn from the Muslims


I know that most of you are going to hate this, but they are facts.

Financial system, social services, were created during the Islamic civilisation, to help the needy, regardless of their religion or origin.

Look it up I don't mean on the internet, I am not sure you will find this information on the net, you might find some of it, but I doubt you will find all of it, because it's been deliberately hidden from us.

So people should take a step back and think, it's easy to just carry that hatred in your stomach and go head first without checking anything.

Check, double check, triple check, they have been hiding all sorts of truths from us for generations, centuries.

But the truth and facts are still out there, they are not as available as the lies they pumped into our heads, day and night.

Anyway it's your call, if you want to remain ignorant, so stay ignorant but don't complain later you didn't know, it's no excuse.

[deadskinball]

Treating fellow humans (woman) as nothing more than a cow pat does not sit well with me.

...or with alot of people.

[adbasque]

Treating fellow humans (woman) as nothing more than a cow pat does not sit well with me.

...or with alot of people.

Yes like 1.5 billion people all love to be treated this way, right?

nearly two billion of them, they all love to be treated the way you just described it, after years of research and gathered all the evidence, right?

I am very impressed with your comment, that only shows you haven't read more than a paragraph, it confirms exactly what I mentioned above :)

I was hoping for more rational and intelligent response, but I was kind of expecting it.

You used two tactful things, you put "woman" in brackets, and use at the end with a lot of people, calling for support?

couldn't you cope by yourself? lol

God I can read through you people, the only motivation the only truth is pure hatred, and you don't know how to hide it, and this is exactly what you're accusing Islam of doing, whilst you're the ones, intolerant, hateful, ignorant, you fear Islam because you don't understand it and mostly, you associate it with "third world" as I said above, ME follow an Arab, ME do what an ARAB, who lives in a desert with camels, ME follow a backward savages, that the media showed me?

That is the reality, you can deny it as much as you like, I don't care I know what I know.

:)
Pure hatred no other reason.

[swethirte]

A man being allowed to have 4 wives, but not vice versa, is repulsive. And women having to cover their hair or entire face. And chopping thieves hands off, no matter how petty their crime. Not to mention every Muslim's duty to wage holy war against unbelievers.

[metacomet]

People hate Islam for the same reason they hate Christianity.

The scriptures express dogmas and outdated social laws that rub us the wrong way in modern society.

This is enough to cause most people to throw a fit... so be it.

They will never understand the significance of spiritual lessons that are taught alongside those scriptures.

If they did have the capacity to understand the spiritual significance of lessons within these scriptures they would realize that the issues they have with the social laws etc. are irrelevant.

Social law, dogma, organized religion - these are all irrelevant to the big picture and that is exactly why these things are focused on. The big picture is not for everyone.

[deadskinball]

I can read through you people

If you think your religion is such good stuff then why are women treated like shit?

You don't even give me a proper rebuttal to my previous post, you just started blabbing on about how I'm supposedly towing the party line like is 'in' to hate on your religion.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but i hate ALL religions equally.

...well at least the ones which i know about.

[adbasque]

A man being allowed to have 4 wives, but not vice versa, is repulsive. And women having to cover their hair or entire face. And chopping thieves hands off, no matter how petty their crime. Not to mention every Muslim's duty to wage holy war against unbelievers.

WOw, you got it all figured out, so that's Islam oh I must have been asleep then I didn't know that, thanks for this information

Yes every morning I wake up thinking who I am going to attack next, all these unbelievers around me :)

And I am sure all muslims, think about that, they don't have a life to live, a family to raise, all they think of is how to spill blood of others.

It's sad, so this is Islam for you, right?
Thanks BBC, CNN, Fox News, lol

[metacomet]

A man being allowed to have 4 wives, but not vice versa, is repulsive. And women having to cover their hair or entire face. And chopping thieves hands off, no matter how petty their crime. Not to mention every Muslim's duty to wage holy war against unbelievers.

None of that had anything to do with Mohammed's spiritual experience or revelation about their being one God.

Just like nothing that people find so repulsive in Christianity has anything to do with the teachings of Christ.

[nofuture]

I find it amusing that the West doesn't hold for example Africans to the same standard of conduct as South Asians.


Maybe it's cos there's less oil in Africa.:eek:

But carry on hating Muslims, it's just what they want.

[adbasque]

If you think your religion is such good stuff then why are women treated like shit?

You don't even give me a proper rebuttal to my previous post, you just started blabbing on about how I'm supposedly towing the party line like is 'in' to hate on your religion.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but i hate ALL religions equally.

...well at least the ones which i know about.

The reason I don't answer these questions, is because they are the same questions on and and on, I know it's not something people know, but something they were told and made to believe.

Where did you see women treated like S***?
which country for example give me an example?
When I said you haven't read what I typed above, it's because I know you haven't bothered to read it.

Now, give me where did you see, that and when?

[kappy0405]

so it seems the reasons people hate 'islam' is because of the way the media has portrayed it.. grrreat.

I'm not a Muslim, but without a doubt it is the most peaceful of the 3 major monotheistic religions. (they're all barbaric anyway) For example, I believe 'Jihad' is only permitted in self-defense, no? From what I remember, it doesn't promote imperialising like Judaism & Christianity. You'll never see a mosque asking for your money while the preacher drives off in a BMW..

Treating fellow humans (woman) as nothing more than a cow pat does not sit well with me..or with alot of people.
this is a myth.. I've seen many sources proving that Iran, for example, possibly benefits women more than the US.

A man being allowed to have 4 wives, but not vice versa, is repulsive
This is only if approved by the wife, and a prerequisite is equal treatment to all of them. Is that so bad?

And women having to cover their hair or entire face.
why is their style of dress a big deal? If that's the way they want to be, then whats wrong with it? Nobody is forced to be a Muslim.

I must say though that the recent anti-nwo movement within the Muslim word (via 'Arrivials') has completely lost its credibility already. The forum there is full of blatant racism and overall naiveness. If they feel they're representing Islam, I'm glad not to be a part of it. The vast majority there seem to think that everyone who isn't Muslim is a shill.. seriously.

Alex Jones.. He's only criticized Israel 10,000 times. He doesn't meet the quota.. SHILL..

Did I mention his wife is Jewish!? :eek:

Jason Bermes.. He hesitates to use the word 'Jew' and instead says 'Zionist'.. automatic SHILL..

David Icke.. He speaks of love being the greatest thing in the world and the only thing that ultimately matters therefore he's been influenced by Satan.. SHILL..

..and apparantly the Illuminati want people to believe in Reptilians. :cool:

It's sad because the staff there seems down to earth and not like this at all...

[adbasque]

..and apparantly the Illuminati want people to believe in Reptilians. :cool:

It's sad because the staff there seems down to earth and not like this at all...

I don't care how many people want to believe in reptilians lol, I have enough on my plate to add the reptilian agenda.

The only time I describe these NWO, and the Illuminati as reptilians it's a figure of speech, when you call someone a snake, his eyes, untrustworthy and so on.

No we are human beings some are greedy, some were taken by the superiority complex, some believe to be superior to other etc..

I know Alex Jones' wife is Jewish
With Jason, I think he has some sponsors who are Jews, so he is very careful and of course Alex is his mate, so he is careful to offend his mate's wife.

But I am getting tired of all this lot, I came here to this forum, thinking the way to fight the big enemy of humanity, restore order in the world.

I realised that I am wasting my time, because people are too happy to exteriorise their anger and frustration towards an easy target, which is already there, ready to be picked up.

It was cooked for them by the Illuminati, they fail to see the division.
Now we have a group of trolls adding the BNP to the programme, instead of fighting against the real enemy we end up fighting each other

But hey!! people are wide awake they know exactly what they're doing, it's just an impression they give of being asleep.

The order is Divide to reign
It's ok I am aware, but please let me just hate the Muslims a little bit, I can't help it, I know I have been brainwashed but I love hating the Muslim

[adbasque]

Read Bellow


Despite the fact I said I won't be answering these questions again, but I'll try and give you an insight of what Islam really is.


A man being allowed to have 4 wives, but not vice versa,


In Islam for a man to have four wives is as a last resort, for example

If the wife is sick (and she agrees)
If the wife can satisfy him sexually (if she agrees)
He needs to come up with a real reason why he needs another wife
If the wife has lost her libido no longer want any sexual intercourse
He has to provide equally for both women financially and emotionally
He should treat them equally no favouritism, and respect their wills

The above are only few of the huge list of conditions
It's not jus like that go and have 4 wives, this how the western media wanted to portray it.


is repulsive.

Not as repulsive as western mentality, I love darling as soon as he is out of the house, bang another chick with short dress walks by he forgets his vows and the woman he left at home, is this better>?

Yes?
Better to be a hypocrite, cheating, adultery?
and he's found out, not only the he breaks her heart but breaks their marriage, and usually kids are involved and it's big mess, do you like this way perhaps?

Look at Muslim families rare to see divorces, because both parties have a code to stick by, on top of affection and love.


And women having to cover their hair or entire face.


So far every woman I met wanted to wear it and that includes my own wife, she was born here, English, reverted (converted) to Islam just like I did, and she's happily wearing it, I have never said anything to her about it, either it's her choice.

Perhaps you prefer all of these women walking almost naked, that's their choice, but you talk about imposing, who's imposing Islam or you?
You want to see all women act, do things the same way you do them, you can't accept people to be different, who's the intolerant?


And chopping thieves hands off, no matter how petty their crime.


Listen I said it and I am saying it again, you don't know what you're talking about, but that's ok. (I don't expect you)

The hand chopping

In 700 years there were two cases of hand chopping, because people stole when they shouldn't, I'll explain

You have no reason to steal, because there is a system in place to look after the poor, the needy, the weak and so on, people lived all their lives they didn't do a days work, they lived like kings

The ones who stole, they were caught when asked why did they steal, they couldn't give a good reason, they had everything they needed provided for them by the state, they had no reason whatsoever to steal, none!!

They were pardonned 3 times, the third time they chopped their right hand
People lived in harmony, in peace, no need for crime, if they didn't do that, more and more people will steal before you know it's out of control.

As we are having today, you like the way things are today? you probably do
Rapes, murders, adulteries, kidnapping, violence day and night, stabbing, hypocrisy, lots of sex, lots of drugs, lots of crime in general, wars, accidents, and the list goes on, not to mention the bigger crime of all corruption of the whole system.

In those days they had the best taxation system in the world, even Napoleon wanted to adapt it to the french state, and he was poisoned 3 months later, he died in 1821, the official story, he died from cancer, but that's not the truth, he was poisoned.


Not to mention every Muslim's duty to wage holy war against unbelievers.
They only wage war if they are attacked, you cannot wage war if it's not in self defense, this the biggest lie of all of them.

I know you never read the Quoran, or maybe you read a translated version which most likely been changed to mislead people.

If you read the Quoran really, you wouldn't be saying these things.

Muslims don't wage wars for no reason, unless their backs are against the wall, it is called self defense, to protect their land, the innocents, children and women.
Islam and Muslims are being framed by the Zionist and the Jesuits, it's been the case for many generations, except this time, they really want to take over the land of the Muslims, destroy Islam from within.

Put a Muslim against another, just like Britain did to the Ottoman Empire:

Read bellow please


Ottoman government deliberately pursued a policy for the development of Bursa, Edirne (Adrianople) and Constantinople, successive Ottoman capitals, into major commercial and industrial centres, considering that merchants and artisans were indispensable in creating a new metropolis.[34] To this end, Mehmed and his successor Bayezid, also encouraged and welcomed migration of the Jews from different parts of Europe, who were settled in Constantinople and other port cities like Salonica. In many places in Europe, Jews were suffering persecution at the hands of their Christian counterparts. The tolerance displayed by the Ottomans was welcomed by the immigrants


You also need to check out The treaty of Balta Liman

Muslims are hateful, Muslim hate Jews, Muslims are savages :)
Read and do a proper research before attacking blindly, it's nice to accuse anyone of something that he is not guilty of.

The Ottoman Empire was, in principle, tolerant towards Christians and Jews (the "Ahl Al-Kitab", or "People of the Book", according to the Qu'ran) but not towards the polytheists, in accordance with the Sharia law. Such tolerance was subject to a non-Muslim tax, the Jizya.

It's so easy to twist facts and frame people, especially when the big audience doesn't read, doesn't research the truth could be burried 6 foot under, unless you dig it out


non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria. The tax is/was to be levied on able bodied adult males of military age and affording power,[2] (but with specific exemptions,[3][4] though these were discarded at various points in history[5]). From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws

just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[6] In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim state's protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and the Zakah as obligatory upon Muslim citizens.

Zakat only those who could pay it once a year, and it's a tenth 1/10 of their revenues after the second year of their successful turnover.

Show me a tax system that is as fair as back then? show me on any country

And this is just scraping the surface, we haven't gone deeper. it wasn't perfect of course, but a hell of lot better than it is today.

To finish off
For adultery to be judged, the person has to be seen by 4 witnesses, caught in the action, not assuming that the person was committing adultery, it has to be caught in the actions and seen by 4 witnesses at the same time, and the witnesses should not be related at all!

Not long ago, here in the UK people were hanged for nothing, I suppose that was a good system, right?
In America the land of the free, people are still sitting in the death row, gas chamber, electric chair, lethal injection.

Electric chair is humane?
You think a gas chamber is humane, right?
You think hanging is humane?
The French with Guillotine is humane?
And we are suppose to be in the 20th century evolved and well developed
I am not even talking about the miscarriage of justice
Do you know how many people George Bush executed as a Governor of Texas?
Have you seen a human being being executed? in gas chamber, by hanging, or electric chair? his internal organs fry up, his brains melt and come out of his nose, is this humane??
and above all most of them are victims of the rotten system, that we live under.
I suggest you look it up.

Have a nice day
;)

[metacomet]

The reason I don't answer these questions, is because they are the same questions on and and on

Yes, they are.

Where did you see women treated like S***?

Now, give me where did you see, that and when?

None of these people have seen anything.

They saw a T.V. show or documentary and that's all they needed to throw a blanket over entire countries and religions... a big wet blanket of fear based on shallow stereotypes.

Women get treated terribly in ALOT of countries. Even AMERICA and the UK *gasp*. But hey... it's not about that. It's about digging up whatever sore topic we can to dismiss what was actually once considered a very peaceful and civilized philosophy.

What I find ironic, and I'm sure you would agree, adbasque - is that the earliest philosophers, scientists and mathematicians came from Islamic countries during the Persian era and these were the founding fathers of civilization as we know it.

But hey. Those were just dirty arab women-haters... Booo Islam!

[adbasque]

Yes, they are.


None of these people have seen anything.

They saw a T.V. show or documentary and that's all they needed to throw a blanket over entire countries and religions... a big wet blanket of fear based on shallow stereotypes.

Women get treated terribly in ALOT of countries. Even AMERICA and the UK *gasp*. But hey... it's not about that. It's about digging up whatever sore topic we can to dismiss what was actually once considered a very peaceful and civilized philosophy.

What I find ironic, and I'm sure you would agree, adbasque - is that the earliest philosophers, scientists and mathematicians came from Islamic countries during the Persian era and these were the founding fathers of civilization as we know it.

But hey. Those were just dirty arab women-haters... Booo Islam!

It's such a shame, but you know what?
I don't really blame them, it takes time for some people to realise certain realities of the "Big picture" as you mentioned earlier

Brainwashing is something you don't feel, it becomes you, it all depends on what level of awarness the person is my friend.

The only thing that really gets me, for years they are the same "arguments" it proves one thing, that they all get their information from the same source, TV Tell Lie Vision and news papers, magazine, and probably the completely altered history of the world.

Yes most scientists in those days were Persian, the bad Iranians today, the Evil doers :)

How Ironic, being one of the top scientists in the world turning into bad guys and evil doers.

Sigh!

[siriusc]

Think about where you developed your attitudes about Islamic countries. You will find your answer. I lived in a Middle Eastern country among the populace and I can tell you they are no different than us. Sure they have their factions that get all the media attention and villify the entire culture but honestly, I've never seen so many people from various cultures, and religious beliefs get along so well. We might learn a lesson from them. They have maintained their communities and look after each other, a lesson we could learn from. They laugh at their government and continue on in their lives and beliefs as they have for centuries. It might surprise you to know that the ones that work for the Western countries end up turning back to their fundamental and "extremist" beliefs.

[pinkfreud]

People hate Islam for the same reason they hate Christianity.

The scriptures express dogmas and outdated social laws that rub us the wrong way in modern society.

This is enough to cause most people to throw a fit... so be it.

They will never understand the significance of spiritual lessons that are taught alongside those scriptures.

If they did have the capacity to understand the spiritual significance of lessons within these scriptures they would realize that the issues they have with the social laws etc. are irrelevant.

Social law, dogma, organized religion - these are all irrelevant to the big picture and that is exactly why these things are focused on. The big picture is not for everyone.


+1


i have absolutely nothing against islam and i know that it's a rather peaceful religion by itself. it's sad that so much is being exploited in its name, but all organised religion to me is a trap.

the essence of any way of life are its spiritual (not religious) teachings. imbibe what you can from the teachings of the buddha, christ, krishna, mohammed and other figures and you will cease to be trapped in this illusory mind game. religion is a farce which divides people and spirituality is a path that unites.








so ask yourself- would you rather be religious, or spiritual?

even so, stop targeting those who have made a conscious decision to follow islam, christianity or judaism for whatever reason. it's their choice and theirs only.

just let go.

[mephibosheth]

I had to start this thread to see how many people actually hate Islam and why?


People fear what they don't understand. And they hate their fear, because it renders them helpless before the chaotic face of the unknown. And they thus hate the thing that they perceive as the source of their fear.

Others hate Islam because they see it as the enemy--whether standing in the way of imperialism or capitalism or being borne of the loins of the Devil.



Do you actually think it was pure coincidence that all of these leaders in the Muslim world happened to be corrupt and dictators by pure chance?

The reason for that is because, most people in the west, don't know the truth, the average person only recently heard about Islam etc.. the majority heard of the Islamic world post 9/11.

They knew there were Muslim countries, and they are backward people, they beat their wives, mutilate their children, stone their criminals, cut hands and so on.

What they don't know is this, the same people who stone let's say a homosexual for instance, they come to Britain or the USA, they spend millions of dollars in one night.

They gamble, they drink, they have homosexual orgies, they hire prostitutes males and females, they spen a huge amount of money here in the west.

Back home they are the judges, the jury and the executioner, who put them in power in the first place and more importantly why?

Why do people ignore this fact, does it suit you in a way?
Every single Muslim/Arab country has a corrupt government, deliberately put there by the western rulers (Jesuits) if you like.


Jesuits did it...again!!



-----


A man being allowed to have 4 wives, but not vice versa, is repulsive.


Well, it does seem unfair, to be sure. But repulsion is in the bile of the beholder.

Islam can argue--and reasonably so--that men having multiple wives is far more natural than the other way around. The fruit of marriage for women is children. A woman can only have one brood at a time. But men can constantly impregnate women all through their lives.

But usually the argument in Islam hinges on the issue of inheritance and lineage. If women had multiple husbands, they cry, how could anyone know who the father is??? This sort of thing was very important in the old days. Nowadays we have tests to determine this, so it's a non-issue. ANd hence, this ruling, while perhaps sound in its day, is now archaic.



And women having to cover their hair or entire face.


That's not a command of Islam proper. That is, the law only refers to covering the hair, which is common to Herbrew and early Christian traditions. The extreme covering we see today are the result of ultra-conservative interpretations.

And furthermore, no woman is forced to cover anything. Women actually freely choose to adopt these styles of dress and do so for their own (and God's) pleasure.



And chopping thieves hands off, no matter how petty their crime.


Not a part of Islam proper.



Not to mention every Muslim's duty to wage holy war against unbelievers.

Another gross misconception.

A Muslim is only commanded to go to war in self-defense. And only after all other avenues of reconciliation and discussion have been exhausted.

----


In Islam for a man to have four wives is as a last resort, for example

If the wife is sick (and she agrees)
If the wife can satisfy him sexually (if she agrees)
He needs to come up with a real reason why he needs another wife
If the wife has lost her libido no longer want any sexual intercourse
He has to provide equally for both women financially and emotionally
He should treat them equally no favouritism, and respect their wills

The above are only few of the huge list of conditions
It's not jus like that go and have 4 wives, this how the western media wanted to portray it.


A man is under no obligation to inform his existing wives about the decision to marry another wife. It is not a matter for communal decision. A man can marry any four women and the only real stipulation is that he can take care of them justly and equally. Those reasons--lost libido etc--are rationalizations but not parts of any law.



Look at Muslim families rare to see divorces, because both parties have a code to stick by, on top of affection and love.


hahah...and also it's near impossible for a woman to divorce a man, whereas a man only has to announce 'we are divorced' in the presence of a witness to finish the deal.



Perhaps you prefer all of these women walking almost naked


Yep. That's how God made 'em!


8)

[mephibosheth]

just let go.

Sound advice.

:)

[swethirte]

Nobody is forced to be a Muslim.


It's illegal to convert to another religion in most Muslim countries. If you're born a Muslim, you have to stay one.

[swethirte]

What I find ironic, and I'm sure you would agree, adbasque - is that the earliest philosophers, scientists and mathematicians came from Islamic countries during the Persian era and these were the founding fathers of civilization as we know it.


And there was me thinking they came from Ancient Greece.

[swethirte]

Not as repulsive as western mentality, I love darling as soon as he is out of the house, bang another chick with short dress walks by he forgets his vows and the woman he left at home, is this better>?

You seem to have a very poor view of Western Society. Why don't you go and live in a Muslim country if you think its so good?

[islamvslizards]

guys for the most part your hearts are in the right places but there is one key bit of information that you are lacking, which is whats causing you to be so woefully wrong about islam.

you know what that is?

everything you have described has come about as a direct result of the influence of the wahabbi death cult, which is currently in charge of saudi arabia.

terrorism is born and funded by saudi wahabbis

women hatred and persecution - wahabbi
hatred of the west - wahabbi
backward fatwas - wahabbi
sectarian violence in the middle east - wahabbi
african genital mutilation of girls - wahabbi
seeing all non wahabbis as the enemy - wahabbi

how were the wahabbis created?

with the help of the british who installed the house of saud in saudi arabia, and who created the national religion with muhammed bin abdul wahabb, who called his religion "wahabbi"

go read a book guys. and stop watching the mainstream media. i cant believe im having to say this on the DAVID BLOODY ICKE FORUM

jesus wept!

[swethirte]

It turns out that the Koran has 109 verses advocating violence against non-believers, and almost no peaceful ones http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

[element]

And there was me thinking they came from Ancient Greece.
lol, is this a joke?

[swethirte]

lol, is this a joke?

Philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, all these were found in Ancient Greece long before Islam was invented. And a lot of what the Muslims later knew was taken from the Greeks anyway whose land they conquered.

[element]

Philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, all these were found in Ancient Greece long before Islam was invented. And a lot of what the Muslims later knew was taken from the Greeks anyway whose land they conquered.
Right. I thought you were meaning the first mathematicians and scientists were from Greece.

[islamvslizards]

It turns out that the Koran has 109 verses advocating violence against non-believers, and almost no peaceful ones http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm


109?? out of 6346 total verses? 1.72% of the quran does that?

wow. arent you the bright one that got us turr-rists all figured out :rolleyes:

by the way, bet you dont know anything about why those verses were revealed, or WHICH unblievers that was aimed at do you?

of course not.

[islamvslizards]

Philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, all these were found in Ancient Greece long before Islam was invented. And a lot of what the Muslims later knew was taken from the Greeks anyway whose land they conquered.

the prophet never conquered ANY foregn land during his life, apart from mecca which he saw as his right. what was done after him, he was therefore not responsible for.

[element]

Lots of Islamophobia there is in my country.

The political party that leads the polls now is anti-Islam, and really he only gets his succes with emotional chitchat. Scripture taking out of context is popular here too, also under the Christians. Really funny.

I've been to several Islamic countries and it wasn't all too bad. Of course you can only make conclusions when you live there for a while. But it isn't Afganistan everywhere.

[swethirte]

Right. I thought you were meaning the first mathematicians and scientists were from Greece.

Not the first, but what happened in Ancient Greece was a quantum leap forward in all those areas.

[swethirte]

109?? out of 6346 total verses? 1.72% of the quran does that?

wow. arent you the bright one that got us turr-rists all figured out :rolleyes:

by the way, bet you dont know anything about why those verses were revealed, or WHICH unblievers that was aimed at do you?

of course not.

How many verses advocate tolerance? And it doesn't matter which unbelievers they were aimed at. 109 verses advocating terror is 109 too many.

[swethirte]

the prophet never conquered ANY foregn land during his life, apart from mecca which he saw as his right. what was done after him, he was therefore not responsible for.

What? He was responsible because he had created the very belief system and mind set that made it possible.

[islamvslizards]

How many verses advocate tolerance? And it doesn't matter which unbelievers they were aimed at. 109 verses advocating terror is 109 too many.

you are digging a hole luv. first thing to do is stop digging.

how many verses advocate tolerance?

LOADS. go and read the thread i started when i first registered. look in my profile to find it.

it doesnt matter which unbelievers they are aimed at?

are you for real? so it doesnt matter if the quran is quite obviously talking about one specific group of people at one particular time, but people like you assume its talking about all unbeleievers everywhere forever?

that doesnt matter to you?

109 verses advocating terror is 109 too many

bullcrap. 109 verses saying "defend yourself" is fine.

[islamvslizards]

What? He was responsible because he had created the very belief system and mind set that made it possible.

no. he was responsible for his life and instructions he left. its called "sunnah" - following the way the prophet lived. since he didnt invade any country, its not part of his "sunnah".

so no. he WASNT responsible.

you got any more ignorant questions?

[swethirte]

you are digging a hole luv. first thing to do is stop digging.

how many verses advocate tolerance?

LOADS. go and read the thread i started when i first registered. look in my profile to find it.

it doesnt matter which unbelievers they are aimed at?

are you for real? so it doesnt matter if the quran is quite obviously talking about one specific group of people at one particular time, but people like you assume its talking about all unbeleievers everywhere forever?

that doesnt matter to you?

109 verses advocating terror is 109 too many

bullcrap. 109 verses saying "defend yourself" is fine.

Defend oneself against innocent people by murdering thousands of them, like in 9/11? The Koran is a hate book, pure and simple, and should be banned under the hate speech laws.

[swethirte]

no. he was responsible for his life and instructions he left. its called "sunnah" - following the way the prophet lived. since he didnt invade any country, its not part of his "sunnah".

so no. he WASNT responsible.

you got any more ignorant questions?

Yes. Try reading this website first though http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[manxboz]

It makes me sick when people bash Religions, now im not a Muslim but i respect them, they are my Arbrhamic Brothers and Sisters. We can all take verses from books to make them say what we want them to say but Islam is about peace, most of them want to make the world a better place like most Christians do, like many Religions do. You shold study the Qua'ran for yourselves, not take your evidence from people who hate the Religion. You don't go to a Ford dealer asking them about the latest Land Rover.

[islamvslizards]

Defend oneself against innocent people by murdering thousands of them, like in 9/11? The Koran is a hate book, pure and simple, and should be banned under the hate speech laws.

yeah. arent you the religious authority with an in depth knowledge of the quran to be able to tell me what the quran is and isnt.

"murdering thousands of them"? what "thousands" would that be who were murdered? please do tell me.

and i thought the "illuminati" did 9/11, not muslims?

the only thing pure and simple is that you are chattin outta your ass im afraid.

[islamvslizards]

Yes. Try reading this website first though http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

read it. you are about 5 years late, its already been torn apart and refuted from every angle all over the internet, its a load of bollocks.

if i showed you replies would you even bother to read them? no? i thought not.

[swethirte]

yeah. arent you the religious authority with an in depth knowledge of the quran to be able to tell me what the quran is and isnt.

"murdering thousands of them"? what "thousands" would that be who were murdered? please do tell me.

and i thought the "illuminati" did 9/11, not muslims?

the only thing pure and simple is that you are chattin outta your ass im afraid.

When in doubt, resort to personal insults.

[islamvslizards]

When in doubt, resort to personal insults.

really? and what works for you? "when in ignorance, insult anything you want as much as you want and dont expect a reponse"

now answer my question. which "thousands" of murder victims were there at the time of the prophet?

[swethirte]

really? and what works for you? "when in ignorance, insult anything you want as much as you want and dont expect a reponse"

now answer my question. which "thousands" of murder victims were there at the time of the prophet?

Muhammad personally ordered the deaths of over a thousand people, including women and children http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm#muhammadneverkilled

[manxboz]

islamvslizards don't rise to this my brother, people will sling mud when they can't find anything else to throw.

[islamvslizards]

islamvslizards don't rise to this my brother, people will sling mud when they can't find anything else to throw.

hmm.....the thing is i could quite easily refute that nonsense. but i get the impression that no one would listen, so why waste my time?

[sabr3]

The definition of Islam and its laws cannot be understood by mere mortals walking in the filth we call life today...It would be wise not to judge a religion by it's people,people who may infact be just black sheep...but to look deeper into its meanings,its very core...If studied properly,I personally think that ALL the religions of the world will lead us to a truth so profound that we will bow our heads in shame and walk around acknowledging the fact that WE are the devil!

[siriusc]

hmm.....the thing is i could quite easily refute that nonsense. but i get the impression that no one would listen, so why waste my time?


There are a lot of people who care. Ignore the ignorant and clarify for those who will benefit. Some people will not listen but that is their journey to argue for the sake of arguing because they have nothing positive to contribute. They always fall back on instigating and baiting others for arguments and gaining attention for themselves.

[adbasque]

It's illegal to convert to another religion in most Muslim countries. If you're born a Muslim, you have to stay one.

How many "muslim" countries have you visited please?

[swethirte]

How many "muslim" countries have you visited please?

One.

[adbasque]

And there was me thinking they came from Ancient Greece.

Yes if you believe in a loads of myths, the Islamic civilisation were no myths
they were facts, we didn't say that the Greeks didn't have any civilisation but most of is based on myths.

[swethirte]

Yes if you believe in a loads of myths, the Islamic civilisation were no myths
they were facts, we didn't say that the Greeks didn't have any civilisation but most of is based on myths.

You appear to be thinking of Greek mythology, which has also been very influential in Western culture. I was referring to Greek science, philosophy, mathematics, geometry, medicine, astronomy etc. etc.

[adbasque]

Muhammad personally ordered the deaths of over a thousand people, including women and children http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm#muhammadneverkilled

You make me laugh, Mohamed ordered the deaths of women and children>?
It shows how much brainwashing you were exposed to.

Mohamed Saws, doesn't even kill prisoners, never mind women and children, keep listening to those lies, keep copy paste those lies.

What have you got to gain from spreading lies?
How much do you personally know about Islam, not what others told you, didn't I say that in my post?

[adbasque]

You appear to be thinking of Greek mythology, which has also been very influential in Western culture. I was referring to Greek science, philosophy, mathematics, geometry, medicine, astronomy etc. etc.

The greeks have used mostly geometry, the Muslims combined Geometry and Maths to create Algebra, have you any idea how much ALgebra is used today?

This is just one part of it, the numbers you are using today, 0.1.2.3 where do you think they came from?

They were invented by Asians and Muslims, go and find out how much the Greeks knew about medecine, Astronomy, Physics, and compare that with Muslim Scientists.

Add to that science of light, optical, surgery, hospitals, most of all physics and architecture.

I was referring on the western culture based on Greek myth that's what I mean, I am not an idiot, I know the difference between science and Greek Mythology.

Yes you agree that most stuff people believe in are nothing but "Myths"

Keep living in Mythological world ;) that shows a lot

[adbasque]

How many verses advocate tolerance? And it doesn't matter which unbelievers they were aimed at. 109 verses advocating terror is 109 too many.

I did give you a piece of the intolerance of the Muslims, did you bother to read it?

[swethirte]

You make me laugh, Mohamed ordered the deaths of women and children>?
It shows how much brainwashing you were exposed to.

Mohamed Saws, doesn't even kill prisoners, never mind women and children, keep listening to those lies, keep copy paste those lies.

What have you got to gain from spreading lies?
How much do you personally know about Islam, not what others told you, didn't I say that in my post?

Mohamed saws? Is that a form of torture he applied to prisoners of war or something?

[swethirte]

The greeks have used mostly geometry, the Muslims combined Geometry and Maths to create Algebra, have you any idea how much ALgebra is used today?

This is just one part of it, the numbers you are using today, 0.1.2.3 where do you think they came from?

They were invented by Asians and Muslims, go and find out how much the Greeks knew about medecine, Astronomy, Physics, and compare that with Muslim Scientists.

Add to that science of light, optical, surgery, hospitals, most of all physics and architecture.

I was referring on the western culture based on Greek myth that's what I mean, I am not an idiot, I know the difference between science and Greek Mythology.

Yes you agree that most stuff people believe in are nothing but "Myths"

Keep living in Mythological world ;) that shows a lot

The so-called Arabic numerals were invented by the Hindus.

[adbasque]

guys for the most part your hearts are in the right places but there is one key bit of information that you are lacking, which is whats causing you to be so woefully wrong about islam.

you know what that is?

everything you have described has come about as a direct result of the influence of the wahabbi death cult, which is currently in charge of saudi arabia.

terrorism is born and funded by saudi wahabbis

women hatred and persecution - wahabbi
hatred of the west - wahabbi
backward fatwas - wahabbi
sectarian violence in the middle east - wahabbi
african genital mutilation of girls - wahabbi
seeing all non wahabbis as the enemy - wahabbi

how were the wahabbis created?

with the help of the british who installed the house of saud in saudi arabia, and who created the national religion with muhammed bin abdul wahabb, who called his religion "wahabbi"

go read a book guys. and stop watching the mainstream media. i cant believe im having to say this on the DAVID BLOODY ICKE FORUM

jesus wept!

They never realise that the Saudi Arabia, is NOT called Saudi Arabia only since the Biritish put them in power.

Most people don't realise how corrupt this family really is:

They spend most of their time in the west, drinking, having sexual orgies, spending millions of dollars in casinos, hiring prostitutes of both genders,

I knew a guy I worked with years ago, an English guy, he was given £4000 in one night to spend the night with the prince and a golden watch with a 42 carats diamonds that costs thousands of pounds.

They are the filth of the filth, used and are still being used by Britain and the USA

what's the aim? to undermine Islam, same thing goes to Zimbabwe, they complain about Mugabe, yeah right, people have short memories, Mugabe was a British instrument and still is, nehind closed doors they are keeping him in power.

Keep putting your heads in the sand, and point the finger where it's easy, remember you point one finger three come back at you.

[adbasque]

One.

You have visited on so called "Muslim" country and you think you know it all? :D hahaha I can't help you, I can smell hatred from sheer ignorance

[adbasque]

The so-called Arabic numerals were invented by the Hindus.

No not the ones you know my dear, go back and re read again, you skipped something :)

[swethirte]

You have visited on so called "Muslim" country and you think you know it all? :D hahaha I can't help you, I can smell hatred from sheer ignorance

One doesn't need to go abroad to meet Muslims.

[adbasque]

The so-called Arabic numerals were invented by the Hindus.

They were invented by Asians and Muslims, go and find out how much the Greeks knew about medecine, Astronomy, Physics, and compare that with Muslim Scientists.

Did I deny that Indians had a share in their invention?

I am not like you I tell the truth as it is

Not to mention the great Chinese civilisation, the Chinese and the Muslims have learnt a lot from each other.

There's even a mention in Islam about Chinese science, knowledge.

[adbasque]

Mohamed saws? Is that a form of torture he applied to prisoners of war or something?

I don't reply to stupid childish questions, yes it was an electric one :)

[pinkfreud]

Philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, all these were found in Ancient Greece long before Islam was invented. And a lot of what the Muslims later knew was taken from the Greeks anyway whose land they conquered.

honey- please google sumeria, indus valley and ancient chinese civilisations :)



edit: i've noticed this thread could have the tendency to descend into something personal by blurring the line between debate and deliberate provocation.

please do not provoke one another.

no one path is superior to the other. learn from each other and accept the fact that certain individuals are happy with the choices they make.

this thread will be closely watched.







like big brother :D

[lottie]

There's so much general assumption that goes on even on the david icke forum...from people who are meant to be 'open minded' about everything, you cant dump Islam into one category and say 'Islam is this Islam is that...all Muslims are this and that' same goes for any religious sect, any race, any gender...there's always exceptions and 9 x out of 10 its ignorance or media conditioning that influence peoples ideas and concepts. The majority of the world...all people are inherently 'good' and want 'good' for others and the rest of the world... its the few that spoil it for everyone else and give others a bad name and usually thats orchestrated in an attempt to ruin reputation... the West has been working hard to condemn the Middle East for years and years and years... its to forward an agenda. If the middle east was so terrible and the Muslim religion was so awful etc etc... then i wouldnt be marrying a Muslim man. Its all properganda to make the West hate the East! whether you agree with religion or not (its an illuminati construct blahblahblah) the majority of people who follow it are good people...its ideas and teachings are 'good' and they have a right to follow it without condemnation... they do not incite hatred... the powers that be pose in their guise and create hatred amongst them as always. Same with the Jews...Zionism isnt the Jewish religion, any true Jew opposes this. Its the powesr that be that are pulling the strings and creating a belief among people that 'religion' causes wars...no it doesnt ... the powers that be do that! Quite frankly i would hav ethought that memebers of the DI forum would have already seen this and worked it out instead of continuing to condemn those who chose religion and rather not accept taht we are all human beings and are all brotehrs and sisters and should live and let live...unting us all not causing further separation...divide and rule!

[picha]

I had to start this thread to see how many people actually hate Islam and why?

I have noticed recently or even years ago, the mention of the word Islam or Muslims causes controversy, the question is why so much negative views towards Islam

Majority of people speaking about Islam or who give negative views are usually have had some kind of personal experience with someone who's from an Muslim faith or simply from what they learnt from the media, websites and so on.

What is astonishingly hypocritical, is the way people jump at the first occasion whenever Islam or Muslims are involved directly or indirectly, before acquiring any proof, they start showing their hate and despise purely based on what they heard or been told.

Most people were programmed to have a quick negative reaction as soon as Islam is mentioned.
Before even trying to find out if it's true or not, for any other people, creed, religions, they ask for proof, they seek to find out if the allegations are true or false.

When a crime is committed in the west, the person is accused as an individual if an alleged crime is committed by an alleged Muslim

People usually don't even bother to try and find out how it happened, whether the individual is really a Muslim, if the case why he/she did it?

I was born in this country to a Christian family (now all Muslims) I had pretty much the same views about Islam not to that extent, I've always tried to be rational, impartial, unless I have an irrefutable (evidence) proof that the crime was indeed committed by a Muslim only then I can judge the person, not the entire Islamic civilisation.

People seem to forget a Muslim is human being like any other human being, with his weaknesses, with his natural instincts, with his human characteristics.
Why I get the feeling that a Muslim has no rights to a mistake?
It's ok when it's someone other than a Muslim.

I watch there's an endemic view of Islam across the board, very few people come up with rational approaches to any situation that involves Islam or a Muslim.

I want to know

What is it that people are afraid of?
Aren't we afraid of the unknown?
When we ignore something we try and find out what it is, get to know it before we make any judgements.

History as we know it, half of it is a lie, most people don't realise it
If only people care to look and find out what Islam's contribution to the modern world as we know today, in absolutely every aspect of our lives.

Sometimes I laugh when people talk about democracy, human rights, freedom of speech.

What they seem to forget, there are no Muslim countries, they are called Muslim countries, with a very corrupt leaders across the Islamic/Arab world.

Do you actually think it was pure coincidence that all of these leaders in the Muslim world happened to be corrupt and dictators by pure chance?

The reason for that is because, most people in the west, don't know the truth, the average person only recently heard about Islam etc.. the majority heard of the Islamic world post 9/11.

They knew there were Muslim countries, and they are backward people, they beat their wives, mutilate their children, stone their criminals, cut hands and so on.

What they don't know is this, the same people who stone let's say a homosexual for instance, they come to Britain or the USA, they spend millions of dollars in one night.

They gamble, they drink, they have homosexual orgies, they hire prostitutes males and females, they spen a huge amount of money here in the west.

Back home they are the judges, the jury and the executioner, who put them in power in the first place and more importantly why?

Why do people ignore this fact, does it suit you in a way?
Every single Muslim/Arab country has a corrupt government, deliberately put there by the western rulers (Jesuits) if you like.

Their aim is to stop Islam anyway they can, if people can think for a second, if they think the Jesuits are behind everything, what makes them think that Islam is part of it?

Why are they fighting it tooth and nail from every angle? Or is it just pure coincidence again?

The media has done nothing in the last 40 years but tarnish Islam, Hollywood is another source, magazines, news papers, radios, schools, websites, constantly attacking Islam.

Novelists, writers, so called "historians" while we know that history of nations, civilisations has been greatly altered, hiding all the facts from their own people.

Naming all the western scientists, never a mention of Muslim scientists until some Muslims started to shed lights on every invention as we know it today.

From medicine to physics to poetry, to maths, astronomy, astrology, geology etc.. etc..

Most surgery tools we use today have been copied from the early Islamic hospitals, the first hospital was invented (created) by the Muslim doctors, endless medical books and entire encyclopaedias were translated from Arabic to Latin and then to many different western languages.

You don't have to take my word for it, I know you wouldn't, but go and find out for yourselves.

Why do you think the Vatican was placed where it is now? the idea was to stop Islam from spreading northward, no other reason, but that didn't stop them to send their scientists to learn from the Muslims


I know that most of you are going to hate this, but they are facts.

Financial system, social services, were created during the Islamic civilisation, to help the needy, regardless of their religion or origin.

Look it up I don't mean on the internet, I am not sure you will find this information on the net, you might find some of it, but I doubt you will find all of it, because it's been deliberately hidden from us.

So people should take a step back and think, it's easy to just carry that hatred in your stomach and go head first without checking anything.

Check, double check, triple check, they have been hiding all sorts of truths from us for generations, centuries.

But the truth and facts are still out there, they are not as available as the lies they pumped into our heads, day and night.

Anyway it's your call, if you want to remain ignorant, so stay ignorant but don't complain later you didn't know, it's no excuse.


The main reason I dont like islam is because I dont like your prophet who has got to be one of the worst examples of a human being I have ever read about. All my information comes from islamic sources by the way. I know chiristianity is as false a religion as most of the other organised religions but at the very least you can say that jesus is a good example of how to behave. If you compare jesus and mohammed they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[adbasque]

Defend oneself against innocent people by murdering thousands of them, like in 9/11? The Koran is a hate book, pure and simple, and should be banned under the hate speech laws.

God when they were giving intelligence you must've been hiding, this is not your brains talking, this is the amount of hate that's typing.

9/11 was the Muslims? wow good! then we can exterminate you all, what are we waiting for then?
why are we not attacking you to the last one?

I thought I met dumb people but you're holding the flag for them

[pinkfreud]

...AND i was just going to make a mind boggling post as well BUT lottie beat me to it.


*mutters under my breath*


to aptly summarize lottie's post- everyone on this thread must behave. :D

[lottie]

The main reason I dont like islam is because I dont like your prophet who has got to be one of the worst examples of a human being I have ever read about. All my information comes from islamic sources by the way. I know chiristianity is as false a religion as most of the other organised religions but at the very least you can say that jesus is a good example of how to behave. If you compare jesus and mohammed they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Well you and i have definately read about two different Mohammed (pbuh) then.. the one ive read about is inspiring and im no idiot!

[adbasque]

The main reason I dont like islam is because I dont like your prophet who has got to be one of the worst examples of a human being I have ever read about. All my information comes from islamic sources by the way. I know chiristianity is as false a religion as most of the other organised religions but at the very least you can say that jesus is a good example of how to behave. If you compare jesus and mohammed they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.


No I don't think you read it from the Islamic source, I think you were with him at the time, you knew him better than anyone else :)

You hate Muslims and Islam because you're full of hatred, don't find excuses to justify your own pitiful hatred towards human beings.

The source probably called Wikipedia? or Denise Spellberg? euh.. let me think eu..:rolleyes: well the list goes on of people like you that wrote the truth about Mohamed, Islam and Muslims.

You don't just like, you hate, use the proper word.

[alzee]

One doesn't need to go abroad to meet Muslims.

No, but one does need to pull one's head out of one's arse to get a glimpse of the truth.

You should try it.

[eternal_spirit]

It's illegal to convert to another religion in most Muslim countries. If you're born a Muslim, you have to stay one.
Yes and other horrible things :mad:

What is Apostacy?

Technically, apostacy means to leave a religion. It means to once have been a member or believer in a faith and then to cease to believe or to convert to another faith or to question an important aspect of ones faith.

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.
The Reverend Mehdi Dibaj had converted from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) 45 years ago. On 21/12/93 he was sentenced to death on charges of apostasy. Released on appeal his body was found on 5 July 1994. The Reverend Haik Mehr, Superintendent of the Church of the Assemblies of God, who had campaigned against Dibaj's death sentence was found dead on 20/1/94. On 2 July 1994 the body of the Reverend Tatavous Michaelian, Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers in Iran was found with several gun shots to the head.
Egypt (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) We wish to raise what, at first glance, may appear to be an inconsequential or even humorous matter [at least in Australia where a good proportion of partners are unmarried]. A Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) court has ordered the divorce of a couple who wish to stay together. Islamists (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) have claimed that Professor Nasser Hamed Abu Zaid is guilty of heresy in writing that "Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)'s teachings should evolve with changes in society." However, a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) cannot be married to a heretic, a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He and his wife (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html), Ibtihal, also an academic have appealed against the ruling and can remain together for the time being. However if the prosecution stands, they could lose their jobs or even be killed .by fanatics as "adulterers ("living in sin") or as apostates ("deserters of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") [From "Some Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) History]
While there are, as yet, no laws against apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the missionary or the convert may be convicted on other charges, for example "threatening social peace (http://www.peacefaq.com/peace.html) and intercommunal relations". There is, however, a Supreme Court ruling that a Moslem (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who apostacises is legally dead. He loses all rights and powers. He cannot withdraw funds from his accounts. Any person who kills him does not commit murder from a legal point of view because he is already legally dead. The "dead" person cannot marry or inherit. Nor is it possible for an apostate to have his identity card changed to "Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)". More than one hundred and fifty Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who have adopted Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) have been detained in maximum-security (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) prisons. They have been accused of threatening national unity. One example from a Copt (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)ic press release, concerned the case of Dr. Abdul-Rahman who has been held in Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) without trial for two years for breaking with Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He is in solitary confinement but his will has not been broken. He is undoubtedly being used as a warning to anyone else contemplating apostasy




Sudan Bit by bit the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists, the Ikhwan, were able to consolidate their power in Khartoum. In September 1983 a version of Shariah, the "September Law" was introduced. Many floggings, amputations and stonings were carried out. Incorporated in the law was ijtihad or "free interpretation". If the qazi was unable to find a relevant (http://www.peacefaq.com/palestine.html) law to convict a defendant he could search the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and Hadith (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) at his discretion. For example Mahmoud Taha, the 76 year old leader of the Republican Brothers was hanged in January 1985 for apostasy, although it was not a crime at that time.
A number of southerners living in the north had changed their names to Arabic (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) ones to improve their business prospects. They discovered that they had done a dangerous thing; now they were expected to be practising Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and could not use their original names without being subject to the death penalty for apostasy. Similarly at risk were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) families who adopted Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) or an Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) name so that they could qualify for relief supplies during a famine. Also trapped were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) men who had "embraced" Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) so that they could marry Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) or to be able to obtain easy divorces.
15/7/98 Mekki Kuku is held in a Khartoum jail awaiting trial on a charge of apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html). Sudan has the death penalty for "deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)."
Mauritania "Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) guilty of the crime of apostasy, whether by word or action, will be invited to repent over a period of three days. If he does not repent within this time limit, he is to be condemned to death as an apostate and his property will be confiscated by the Treasury
Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who refuses to pray will be invited to fulfill the obligation of prayer in the prescribed time limit. .. If he persists in his refusal he will be punished by the death penalty."
India (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) The Muhtasib saw to it that the Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) did not omit the five daily prayers and the fasts of Ramadan. State musicians and singers were pensioned off. The death penalty for apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) was enforced.
Rushdie claimed (1985) to be a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and so is not bound by Shariah blasphemy (http://www.peacefaq.com/blasphemy.html) laws. If he was born of Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parents then the Shariah does not allow him to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) even in childhood. The penalty under Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) law for apostasy is death. Did you know that Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) religious law to rate as equal to existing British law? A British Pakistani (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) father murdered his daughter (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) for converting to a Jehovah's Witness. He would, of course, have been acquitted, under Shariah which the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists are trying to bring into England. leaders in Britain want
Chechnya Theologians from Chechnya and Dagestan ordered Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to carry out the death sentence against Gov. Aman Tuleyev "at the first possible opportunity". He has been accused of being baptized as an Orthodox Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) on June 25.
The death penalty for apostasy ("deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") is not Qur'anic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but it is Shariah (Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Law) as Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) executed a number of apostates.
Tuleyev denies the report that he had been baptized and says he is not religious. Thus he is still technically an apostate as, being of Kazakh origin, he is "a member of a predominantly Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ethnic (http://www.peacefaq.com/race.html) group" as the theologians say.
Libya Indeed, the only Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) author to have cast doubts on male circumcision has had legal action brought against him and might be sentenced to death for apostasy. I am speaking of (retired) Judge Mustafa Kamal Al-Mahdawi, a personal friend of mine, who is today under a ferocious attack lead by Libyan religious circles in the mosques as well in the press. The preacher of the Mosque of the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html), in Medina, Saudi Arabia (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html), published in July 1992 a pamphlet handed out free of charge in Libya. In this pamphlet, he asks the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Arab (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) League and the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Conference to set up a collective fatwa (http://www.peacefaq.com/jihad.html) of all Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) scholars against this judge and to execute him as an apostate if he does not retract. As for his book, the preacher asks that it be removed from the shelves, burned and forbidden to any reader. He blames the judge for having, among other things, denied that male circumcision is compulsory when there is unanimity in favour of it and when Mohammed (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) was Himself circumcised 54.


Why is Apostacy such a terrible crime in Islam?



Apostasy (Irtidad) in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ?If a person is raised in a society which protects (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) his soul from the impurities of kufr and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in God, Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and the Day of Judgement?
Once a person enters into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) totally and completely. "O You who believe! Enter into submission, kaffatan!" (2:208) he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger. No believing man and no believing woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) has a choice in their own affairs when Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)
Now even the question of apostasy, irtidad or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), becomes a shar'i/religious issue - even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). And Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.After coming into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), desert your own fitra!
On the issue of openly rejecting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) cannot just stand aside and see one of its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)-Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)" to the status of those "who have hearts but do not understand, ears but do not hear, and eyes but do not see."
Apostasy is Equal to Treason Why does Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidad in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is equal to treason. ?In Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) order of sacredness, Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) then the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and then the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Just as upholding and protecting (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), has also negative influence on the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) society, it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidad. It must be emphasized that irtidad which we are dicussing here involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply. The punishment prescibed by the shari'a for apostasy is death.
Even the terms used by the shari'a for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli. (1) Murtad Fitri means a person born of a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parent and then he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Fitri means nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) or natural. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostacized from his nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html), the nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) of believing in God. (2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then later on he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Milli is from millat which means a community. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person that the person has apostacized from his community.
In the first case, the apostasy is like treason against God, whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like treason against the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) community. Probably, that is why there is also a difference in dealing with these two kinds of murtad.
A former kafir who becomes a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.
But one who is born as a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but he still has to go through the punishment prescibed for his treason in this world.
This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.
(Excerpts from "Left Shoe News (http://www.hraic.org.uk/)")

http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html

[picha]

There's so much general assumption that goes on even on the david icke forum...from people who are meant to be 'open minded' about everything, you cant dump Islam into one category and say 'Islam is this Islam is that...all Muslims are this and that' same goes for any religious sect, any race, any gender...there's always exceptions and 9 x out of 10 its ignorance or media conditioning that influence peoples ideas and concepts. The majority of the world...all people are inherently 'good' and want 'good' for others and the rest of the world... its the few that spoil it for everyone else and give others a bad name and usually thats orchestrated in an attempt to ruin reputation... the West has been working hard to condemn the Middle East for years and years and years... its to forward an agenda. If the middle east was so terrible and the Muslim religion was so awful etc etc... then i wouldnt be marrying a Muslim man. Its all properganda to make the West hate the East! whether you agree with religion or not (its an illuminati construct blahblahblah) the majority of people who follow it are good people...its ideas and teachings are 'good' and they have a right to follow it without condemnation... they do not incite hatred... the powers that be pose in their guise and create hatred amongst them as always. Same with the Jews...Zionism isnt the Jewish religion, any true Jew opposes this. Its the powesr that be that are pulling the strings and creating a belief among people that 'religion' causes wars...no it doesnt ... the powers that be do that! Quite frankly i would hav ethought that memebers of the DI forum would have already seen this and worked it out instead of continuing to condemn those who chose religion and rather not accept taht we are all human beings and are all brotehrs and sisters and should live and let live...unting us all not causing further separation...divide and rule!

Lottie, this in my opinion is one of the main problems with Islam: Mohammed is suppsed to be the example that muslims are supposed to live up to. He is regarded as the perfect example of a human being.
Can I ask you if you think the following are good examples of how to behave:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-captives-kill.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-murder.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-pedophilia.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-multiple-wives.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-dishonesty.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-women-kill.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-abolitionist.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-elderly.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-forced-conversion.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-forgiving.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-torture.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-badr.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-qaynuqa.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-nadir.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-qurayza.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-rape.htm

[eternal_spirit]

Originally Posted by eternal_spirit http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=600187#post600187)
The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169). "… To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).
According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them. Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad) against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes. It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), (seems the only get out clause is to pay money to save your lives?) short of which war will be declared against them. [14]




http://www.islamundressed.com/

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=41649&page=8 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41649&page=8)

Honor killing in islam ^^ many more examples at link above

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543392 (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543392)

Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective

Question
Respected scholars, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah wa Barakatuh. What does Islam say about honor killings? Does Islam really have a concept of honor killings, most of the victims here are females; so does Islam really order to kill females in the name of honor?


Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we do really appreciate your question, which shows how far you are interested in getting yourself well-acquainted with the sound teachings of Islam. May Allah bless your efforts in pursuit of knowledge and may He keep us all firm in the straight path!

Sister, it’s a well-known fact that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it. In the Glorious Qur’an, Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Note how insane the contradictions are in Islam, says no killing, then goes on to say that yes Islam condones/commands killing under certain circumstances, one example is adultery.

[eternal_spirit]

Sexual anxiety lies at the heart of many Islamic strictures on women. They are required to cover their bodies--in varying degrees in different places--for fear they might arouse the lust of men other than their husbands. The Koran instructs women to "guard their modesty," not to "display their beauty and ornaments" and to "draw their veils." Saudi women typically don a billowy black cloak called an abaya, along with a black scarf and veil over the face; morality police enforce the dress code by striking errant women with sticks.



The women of Iran and Sudan can expose the face but must cover the hair and the neck.
In most Islamic countries, coverings are technically optional. Some women, including some feminists, wear them because they like them. They find that the veil liberates them from unwanted gazes and hassles from men.



But many Muslim women feel cultural and family pressure to cover themselves. Recently a Muslim fundamentalist group in the Indian province of Kashmir demanded that women start wearing veils. When the call was ignored, hooligans threw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...5647-3,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,185647-3,00.html)

[mephibosheth]

First things first. Taking all the clues from an anti-Islam website is not a good or objective place to start discussion. It colours the outcome from the outset so that no debate can happen.



http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-captives-kill.htm

TheReligionofPeace.com is a non-partisan and pluralistic site concerned with Islam's true political and cultural teachings. Here is why we exist:
On 9/11, nineteen devout Muslims believed they had a religious mandate to fly planes into buildings and slaughter thousands of innocent people.


Well, does anyone, I mean ANYONE, here at DI Forums, believe that 'Muslims' were behind 911? Does anyone who hasn't had their head up their ass for 8 years actually buy that thinly veiled fiction?

And yet, this site, 'Religion of Peace dot com' is founded on this golden nugget. I guess it was Muslims cheering and dancing by their white van filled with explosives, and not Israelis as previously thought.

Plllleeeeeeaaaaassssssse!

:rolleyes:


Second, lets look at the first link. It takes a number of quotes from Ibn Ishaq, an early Muslim historian. So the first question to ask is, is this material reliable? It is not contemporary with Mohammed, but a much later recording of various traditions etc.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq

Ibn Isḥaq has been accused of being a Qadari*, as some have questioned his dependability. Because of this, highly notable scholars including Imam Bukhari hardly ever used his narratives.


*Qadariyah (or Qadariya), in Islam, are adherents of the doctrine of free will. The word Qadar is derived from qadr (power or rights). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadariyah)



Hmm.

But, assuming that some Muslims find this material reliable, what IS their response to things like this:


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-captives-kill.htm

“When the apostle ordered him to be killed, Uqba said, “But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?” [Muhammad’s reply] “Hell.” The man was put to death. (Ibn Ishaq 458)


Is that the fair, just, peaceful, tolerant, caring, and kind apostle that Islam projects for itself?

Or shall we dismiss this passage, and others like it, as lies, lies, lies?

And again:


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-murder.htm

The apostle said, “Kill any Jew that falls into your power.” Thereupon Muhayyisa lepat upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time, though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed [the Jew] Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, “You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?” Muhayyisa answered, “Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.” This was the beginning of Huwayyisa’s acceptance of Islam… [Huwayyisa] replied exclaimed, “By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!” and he became a Muslim. (Ibn Ishaq 554)


More lies? Did Mohammed never give such an order?

What's perhaps more troubling is that these people--the followers of Mohammed--found liberation in religion through participation in bloody murder. What normal, sane, and moral person would witness a cold, brutal, and meaningless murder of a person whom was hitherto a friend of the murderer, and thence assert the obvious superiority of the religion that drove him to it, and thereby embrace it??? A moral human being would recoil in horror at this abominable act and, if he had sense, slay the person that did it and stop the spread of such a 'marvelous' religion right there.

And, like it or not, o' Muslims, these are the types of people that have filled your rank and file from the beginning. So what about it?

I note that this narrative is again from Ibn Ishaq.


Let's look at this clever twisting of meaning:


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-rape.htm

The same hadith goes on to recount that Muhammad personally demanded one of the captured women for his own use:

'I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)'

The prophet of Islam and his companions used war to collect women for personal sexual use and for trading.


When the full text is read, a different meaning becomes clear:


http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/019.smt.html

When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along. Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat. With her was her daughter who was one of the prettiest girls in Arabia. I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: Give me that girl, O Salama. I said: Messenger of Allah, she has fascinated me. I had not yet disrobed her. When on the next day. the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ag;tin met me in the street, he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah. I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca.


So Mohammed wasn't grabbing the prisoner for his pleasure, but as a ransom. She was, in effect, let go--and before his son had even disrobed her.

8)

[swethirte]

“Muslims are the vilest of animals…”

“Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims”

“How perverse are Muslims!”

“Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips”

“Fight those Muslims who are near to you”

“Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified”

Does that sound like hate speech? It does to me. If you replace the word "Muslims" with either "Christians" "Jews" or "unbelievers" all these are direct quotes from the Koran http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm

[eternal_spirit]

quote : mephibosheth
A moral human being would recoil in horror at this abominable act

So should they at genital mutilation.

[nirvana]

No, but one does need to pull one's head out of one's arse to get a glimpse of the truth.

You should try it.


I once seen plenty of muslims on a anti-war march who all bent down and knelt it did look like they were trying to stick there heads up each others behind:rolleyes:

[alzee]

I once seen plenty of muslims on a anti-war march who all bent down and knelt it did look like they were trying to stick there heads up each others behind:rolleyes:

still waiting for you to back-up your earlier comments, pal. all it'd take would be some links to all these forum chats you claim to have had.

oh right, i forgot. you haven't actually got any :rolleyes:

[kidsarocker]

I had to start this thread to see how many people actually hate Islam and why?

I have noticed recently or even years ago, the mention of the word Islam or Muslims causes controversy, the question is why so much negative views towards Islam

Majority of people speaking about Islam or who give negative views are usually have had some kind of personal experience with someone who's from an Muslim faith or simply from what they learnt from the media, websites and so on.

What is astonishingly hypocritical, is the way people jump at the first occasion whenever Islam or Muslims are involved directly or indirectly, before acquiring any proof, they start showing their hate and despise purely based on what they heard or been told.

Most people were programmed to have a quick negative reaction as soon as Islam is mentioned.
Before even trying to find out if it's true or not, for any other people, creed, religions, they ask for proof, they seek to find out if the allegations are true or false.

When a crime is committed in the west, the person is accused as an individual if an alleged crime is committed by an alleged Muslim

People usually don't even bother to try and find out how it happened, whether the individual is really a Muslim, if the case why he/she did it?

I was born in this country to a Christian family (now all Muslims) I had pretty much the same views about Islam not to that extent, I've always tried to be rational, impartial, unless I have an irrefutable (evidence) proof that the crime was indeed committed by a Muslim only then I can judge the person, not the entire Islamic civilisation.

People seem to forget a Muslim is human being like any other human being, with his weaknesses, with his natural instincts, with his human characteristics.
Why I get the feeling that a Muslim has no rights to a mistake?
It's ok when it's someone other than a Muslim.

I watch there's an endemic view of Islam across the board, very few people come up with rational approaches to any situation that involves Islam or a Muslim.

I want to know

What is it that people are afraid of?
Aren't we afraid of the unknown?
When we ignore something we try and find out what it is, get to know it before we make any judgements.

History as we know it, half of it is a lie, most people don't realise it
If only people care to look and find out what Islam's contribution to the modern world as we know today, in absolutely every aspect of our lives.

Sometimes I laugh when people talk about democracy, human rights, freedom of speech.

What they seem to forget, there are no Muslim countries, they are called Muslim countries, with a very corrupt leaders across the Islamic/Arab world.

Do you actually think it was pure coincidence that all of these leaders in the Muslim world happened to be corrupt and dictators by pure chance?

The reason for that is because, most people in the west, don't know the truth, the average person only recently heard about Islam etc.. the majority heard of the Islamic world post 9/11.

They knew there were Muslim countries, and they are backward people, they beat their wives, mutilate their children, stone their criminals, cut hands and so on.

What they don't know is this, the same people who stone let's say a homosexual for instance, they come to Britain or the USA, they spend millions of dollars in one night.

They gamble, they drink, they have homosexual orgies, they hire prostitutes males and females, they spen a huge amount of money here in the west.

Back home they are the judges, the jury and the executioner, who put them in power in the first place and more importantly why?

Why do people ignore this fact, does it suit you in a way?
Every single Muslim/Arab country has a corrupt government, deliberately put there by the western rulers (Jesuits) if you like.

Their aim is to stop Islam anyway they can, if people can think for a second, if they think the Jesuits are behind everything, what makes them think that Islam is part of it?

Why are they fighting it tooth and nail from every angle? Or is it just pure coincidence again?

The media has done nothing in the last 40 years but tarnish Islam, Hollywood is another source, magazines, news papers, radios, schools, websites, constantly attacking Islam.

Novelists, writers, so called "historians" while we know that history of nations, civilisations has been greatly altered, hiding all the facts from their own people.

Naming all the western scientists, never a mention of Muslim scientists until some Muslims started to shed lights on every invention as we know it today.

From medicine to physics to poetry, to maths, astronomy, astrology, geology etc.. etc..

Most surgery tools we use today have been copied from the early Islamic hospitals, the first hospital was invented (created) by the Muslim doctors, endless medical books and entire encyclopaedias were translated from Arabic to Latin and then to many different western languages.

You don't have to take my word for it, I know you wouldn't, but go and find out for yourselves.

Why do you think the Vatican was placed where it is now? the idea was to stop Islam from spreading northward, no other reason, but that didn't stop them to send their scientists to learn from the Muslims


I know that most of you are going to hate this, but they are facts.

Financial system, social services, were created during the Islamic civilisation, to help the needy, regardless of their religion or origin.

Look it up I don't mean on the internet, I am not sure you will find this information on the net, you might find some of it, but I doubt you will find all of it, because it's been deliberately hidden from us.

So people should take a step back and think, it's easy to just carry that hatred in your stomach and go head first without checking anything.

Check, double check, triple check, they have been hiding all sorts of truths from us for generations, centuries.

But the truth and facts are still out there, they are not as available as the lies they pumped into our heads, day and night.

Anyway it's your call, if you want to remain ignorant, so stay ignorant but don't complain later you didn't know, it's no excuse.

I suggest you watch the film "reel bad Arabs" to see how we have been conditioned by hollywood to think of arabs and muslims as nothing but violent sub human animals

Also watch the arrivals

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Arrivals/40497487822?v=app_2392950137&viewas=0

[kidsarocker]

Treating fellow humans (woman) as nothing more than a cow pat does not sit well with me.

...or with alot of people.

Whilst those in the west who have no religion treat women as sex objects

Just need to look at hollywood how they degrade women

[element]

Whilst those in the west who have no religion treat women as sex objects

Just need to look at hollywood how they degrade women
Well said. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[eternal_spirit]

Whilst those in the west who have no religion treat women as sex objects

Just need to look at hollywood how they degrade women

Look buddy many women and men like attention and sex. Islamic men also lust after these sex objects

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=41649&page=8 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41649&page=8)

Honor killing in Islam ^^ many more examples at link above

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1024983&postcount=74

But many Muslim women feel cultural and family pressure to cover themselves. Recently a Muslim fundamentalist group in the Indian province of Kashmir demanded that women start wearing veils. When the call was ignored, hooligans threw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

read back a few pages my posts all about what islam is really about.

[metacomet]

Philosophers, mathematicians, scientists, all these were found in Ancient Greece long before Islam was invented. And a lot of what the Muslims later knew was taken from the Greeks anyway whose land they conquered.

Oh boy.

I'm just going to trust that someone else corrected you.

[metacomet]

It would be wise not to judge a religion by it's people,people who may infact be just black sheep...but to look deeper into its meanings,its very core...If studied properly,I personally think that ALL the religions of the world will lead us to a truth so profound that we will bow our heads in shame and walk around acknowledging the fact that WE are the devil!

Brilliant post.

[metacomet]

Recently a Muslim fundamentalist group in the Indian province of Kashmir demanded that women start wearing veils. When the call was ignored, hooligans threw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

read back a few pages my posts all about what islam is really about.


Oh no!

So there are some crazy Muslims eh?

Well fuck Islam then!!! :rolleyes: Pitiful.

Did I not say on the very first page that the only reason people hate Islam is because of outdated social codes!?!?

This is literally all you people have to go on.

Christians used to burn people at the fucking stake but I don't walk around hating them. Even though that seems extremely popular.

Really sad to see you carry a war banner against Islam so often, spirit. You have better things to do with your intellect.

[siriusc]

This thread has proved one thing to me, that their is a lot of hatred in the world as well as ignorance. For all you bashers, go live in a Muslim country and get to know the people, all of them! Then look at your own country and really get to know the people around you. We all have a lot to learn.

[adbasque]

I suggest you watch the film "reel bad Arabs" to see how we have been conditioned by hollywood to think of arabs and muslims as nothing but violent sub human animals

Also watch the arrivals

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Arrivals/40497487822?v=app_2392950137&viewas=0

As we were conditioned to hate everyone who had the misfortune to be born in a communist country, as we were conditioned to hate Native Americans when we watched Western movies, always portrayed them savages, ruthless, heartless and so on :)

[adbasque]

This thread has proved one thing to me, that their is a lot of hatred in the world as well as ignorance. For all you bashers, go live in a Muslim country and get to know the people, all of them! Then look at your own country and really get to know the people around you. We all have a lot to learn.

Well said :)

We were conditioned to hate blacks
We were conditioned to hate Jews
We were conditioned to hate Indians
We were conditioned to hate Native Americans (Red Indians)
We were conditioned to hate Communists (born in a Communist country)
We were conditioned to hate Irish
We were Conditioned to hate Germans
We were conditioned to hate Italians
We were conditioned to hate Arabs
We were conditioned Muslims
Protestant hate Catholics, Catholics hate Protestants, Church of England hated the rest.

The list still goes on and on

[picha]

Originally Posted by eternal_spirit http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=600187#post600187)
The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169). "… To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).
According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them. Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad) against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes. It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), (seems the only get out clause is to pay money to save your lives?) short of which war will be declared against them. [14]




http://www.islamundressed.com/

That really is absoloutely fucking awful. And muslims wonder why non muslims have a problem with islam and its ideology.....

[adbasque]

One final thing

Mohamed that everyone bash from everywhere being a bad man.

Let me tell you one of his stories

at one time, he had this neighbour every morning he finds garbage on his front door, the Prophet (Saws) would pick it up goes back inside washes his hands goes to pray at dawn

It went on like this for a longtime until one day, he woke up to go to the mosque, he came out of the house, and didn't find garbage in front of his house, he asked people if they have seen his neighbour has he gone somewhere, they said No he is very sick

He went in to visit him and made sure he was looked after, until that man recovered from his illness.

Who would do something like that?
People only see what they want to see.

If that's not a peaceful man I don't know who is

[picha]

One final thing

Mohamed that everyone bash from everywhere being a bad man.

Let me tell you one of his stories

at one time, he had this neighbour every morning he finds garbage on his front door, the Prophet (Saws) would pick it up goes back inside washes his hands goes to pray at dawn

It went on like this for a longtime until one day, he woke up to go to the mosque, he came out of the house, and didn't find garbage in front of his house, he asked people if they have seen his neighbour has he gone somewhere, they said No he is very sick

He went in to visit him and made sure he was looked after, until that man recovered from his illness.

Who would do something like that?
People only see what they want to see.

If that's not a peaceful man I don't know who is

Well I suppose that cancels out the 600-900 beheadings of the banu qurazia tribe he carried out in 1 night.
You really are very very wierd.

[eternal_spirit]

If that's not a peaceful man I don't know who is:rolleyes:
Who? You should have chosen Jesus or Buddha! for an example of a peaceful man.

[swethirte]

Oh boy.

I'm just going to trust that someone else corrected you.

It's true. Inconvenient for the Islam-appeasers I admit, but still true.

[swethirte]

Oh no!

So there are some crazy Muslims eh?

Well fuck Islam then!!! :rolleyes: Pitiful.

Did I not say on the very first page that the only reason people hate Islam is because of outdated social codes!?!?

This is literally all you people have to go on.

Christians used to burn people at the fucking stake but I don't walk around hating them. Even though that seems extremely popular.

Really sad to see you carry a war banner against Islam so often, spirit. You have better things to do with your intellect.

The difference is that Christians stopped doing that. They evolved.

[swethirte]

This thread has proved one thing to me, that their is a lot of hatred in the world as well as ignorance. For all you bashers, go live in a Muslim country and get to know the people, all of them! Then look at your own country and really get to know the people around you. We all have a lot to learn.

And for all you Muslim-appeasers, please do the same.

[swethirte]

One final thing

Mohamed that everyone bash from everywhere being a bad man.

Let me tell you one of his stories

at one time, he had this neighbour every morning he finds garbage on his front door, the Prophet (Saws) would pick it up goes back inside washes his hands goes to pray at dawn

It went on like this for a longtime until one day, he woke up to go to the mosque, he came out of the house, and didn't find garbage in front of his house, he asked people if they have seen his neighbour has he gone somewhere, they said No he is very sick

He went in to visit him and made sure he was looked after, until that man recovered from his illness.

Who would do something like that?
People only see what they want to see.

If that's not a peaceful man I don't know who is

One good story or deed or even a few doesn't excuse the fact that he murdered a thousand people, waged war, and was a sexual predator. Hitler liked animals. Does that make him a nice person?

[adbasque]

Ignorance is a blessing when a small knowledge is probed

[swethirte]

Ignorance is a blessing when a small knowledge is probed

And willful ignorance is even worse.

[eternal_spirit]

That really is absoloutely fucking awful. And muslims wonder why non muslims have a problem with islam and its ideology.....
Exactly, it's having knowledge of Islam that forms our opinions, not ignorance.

[metacomet]

The difference is that Christians stopped doing that. They evolved.

That is an incredibly bigoted thing to say...

You might as well say 'white people used to murder just like black people, but we evolved.'

A man who prays to God everynight can still end up killing someone for wronging their family or something... whether he's Christian or Muslim it doesn't make a difference.

The difference here is that organized militias which just happen to be Muslim have got people like yourself spouting that all Muslims are beheading people etc. That's called bigotry. You might as well say all chinese people are binding their wife's feet because you heard it's happened before.

[metacomet]

Exactly, it's having knowledge of Islam that forms our opinions, not ignorance.

You don't seem to have any knowledge about the philosophy of Islam. You're just another walking library of recorded incidents.

"X amount of Christians killed _____. "
"X amount of Muslims killed _____."

I don't care. Tell me what sparked the belief in Mohammed that there is one God? Tell me what he saw in a cave meditating that brought him to that realization.

That is Islam and it's origination. You people aren't interested in Islam or any other religion for it's spirituality because you are so hung up on what so called 'religious' people do. Scripture is written by man and is therefore mutable, but somehow the greater teachings have managed to survive and they just get spit on by people who don't want to reason with them.

It's better to learn from all things, whether you agree with them or not, and not waste your time rallying against bullet point travesties done in the name of this or that religion.

[siriusc]

The difference is that Christians stopped doing that. They evolved.

Are you certain of that? What about those Christians that bomb abortion clinics and kill the doctors?????:confused:

[swethirte]

That is an incredibly bigoted thing to say...

You might as well say 'white people used to murder just like black people, but we evolved.'

A man who prays to God everynight can still end up killing someone for wronging their family or something... whether he's Christian or Muslim it doesn't make a difference.

The difference here is that organized militias which just happen to be Muslim have got people like yourself spouting that all Muslims are beheading people etc. That's called bigotry. You might as well say all chinese people are binding their wife's feet because you heard it's happened before.

No, that's a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. Islam is an ideology, just like Nazism. It's got nothing to do with race.

[swethirte]

Are you certain of that? What about those Christians that bomb abortion clinics and kill the doctors?????:confused:

Yes, that's tragically true. So we have to look at the numbers. How many people have Christians killed, and how many have Muslims killed? See here for the weekly death toll http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[pinkfreud]

the important thing to note here is that true islam is a way of life, and not a religion.

please attempt to read up on its core philosophies before you attempt to cite it as a cruel, barbaric religion like so many do.

every religion has had blood on its hands- yes, even buddhism.

to tar one religion and try to make another look angelic is exactly what divides us; if only people could see that's so damn pointless in the larger scheme of things.

[eternal_spirit]

[quote]You don't seem to have any knowledge about the philosophy of Islam. You're just another walking library of recorded incidents.
I know enough and don't like what I see. You obviously have little knowledge of the reality, if you wanna ignore the facts about Islam, more fool you...try read some of my posts and links.
"X amount of Christians killed _____. "
"X amount of Muslims killed _____."
Islam invaded Christian lands for a few centuries, they got as far as the French border, then the Christians retaliated and it's been tit for tat ever since. The aim of Islam is to invade or convert the whole planet, it's been happening since Islam began. Look into it.
I don't care. Tell me what sparked the belief in Mohammed that there is one God? Tell me what he saw in a cave meditating that brought him to that realization. I care not, it's nothing to do with God, it's all man made constructs and a fascist regime all about control of people's minds and bodys.

That is Islam and it's origination. You people aren't interested in Islam or any other religion for it's spirituality because you are so hung up on what so called 'religious' people do. Fake spirituality no thanks invented by a bunch of psychopaths. That's the problem what sick acts people commit from religious instruction.

Scripture is written by man and is therefore mutable, but somehow the greater teachings have managed to survive and they just get spit on by people who don't want to reason with them. Yes therefore has nothing to do with God. Religious fanatics reasoning and logic capabilities are severely flawed. Their beliefs are based on faith not reality.

It's better to learn from all things, whether you agree with them or not, and not waste your time rallying against bullet point travesties done in the name of this or that religion.I am not wasting time exposing sick religious practices and beliefs. I may wake up a few lost deluded souls who maybe considering converting to Islam. It's worse than some secret societies Masons or whatever, once you join you cannot leave, if you leave your fellow religionists may kill you for apostasy, or ruin your life and prospectives in some other way.

[swethirte]

That is an incredibly bigoted thing to say...

You might as well say 'white people used to murder just like black people, but we evolved.'

A man who prays to God everynight can still end up killing someone for wronging their family or something... whether he's Christian or Muslim it doesn't make a difference.

The difference here is that organized militias which just happen to be Muslim have got people like yourself spouting that all Muslims are beheading people etc. That's called bigotry. You might as well say all chinese people are binding their wife's feet because you heard it's happened before.

On the contrary, it's the very ideology of Islam that causes people to do that, because it's written in the Koran and can never change, that is, it can never evolve. Those organised militias don't "just happen" to be Muslim I'm afraid.

[eternal_spirit]

Beheading, hanging and stoning for adultry. Yet a man can have numerous wifes. If a woman is raped she needs something like 3 eyewitness in court to prove she was raped. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[swethirte]

Are you certain of that? What about those Christians that bomb abortion clinics and kill the doctors?????:confused:

It happens, but look at the numbers involved.

[swethirte]

You don't seem to have any knowledge about the philosophy of Islam. You're just another walking library of recorded incidents.

"X amount of Christians killed _____. "
"X amount of Muslims killed _____."

I don't care. Tell me what sparked the belief in Mohammed that there is one God? Tell me what he saw in a cave meditating that brought him to that realization.

That is Islam and it's origination. You people aren't interested in Islam or any other religion for it's spirituality because you are so hung up on what so called 'religious' people do. Scripture is written by man and is therefore mutable, but somehow the greater teachings have managed to survive and they just get spit on by people who don't want to reason with them.

It's better to learn from all things, whether you agree with them or not, and not waste your time rallying against bullet point travesties done in the name of this or that religion.

Muhammad filled his holy book with the utmost bile against non-believers, advocating their deaths in huge numbers. Is that what you call a spiritual revelation?

[swethirte]

the important thing to note here is that true islam is a way of life, and not a religion.

please attempt to read up on its core philosophies before you attempt to cite it as a cruel, barbaric religion like so many do.

every religion has had blood on its hands- yes, even buddhism.

to tar one religion and try to make another look angelic is exactly what divides us; if only people could see that's so damn pointless in the larger scheme of things.

Some religions are a great deal worse than others.

[swethirte]

Beheading, hanging and stoning for adultry. Yet a man can have numerous wifes. If a woman is raped she needs something like 3 eyewitness in court to prove she was raped. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

It's 4 eyewitnesses, and they all have to be men (which rather begs the question, what are 4 men doing standing around watching a rape and not trying to prevent it?). If she can't produce these, she is charged with adultery.

[eternal_spirit]

Muhammad filled his holy book with the utmost bile against non-believers, advocating their deaths in huge numbers. Is that what you call a spiritual revelation?
I'm flabergasted that some here ingnore such truths.
I'll tell you a story. Many years ago some of my family from India (Christians) had to leave their homes and flee for their life, they could never go back home, because Muslims were killing their Christian and Hindu neighbours.

It's still happening Today!

Confessions of a Former Islamist

by Ahmed Awny Shalakamy
2005/05/21
The stories that follow are truly heart wrenching. I challenge you to read them and not cry. If you succeed, give yourself a medal for being a heartless beast.
This is a testimony to the fact that evil beliefs make humans commit unthinkable atrocities. Anwar Shaikh, the renowned anti Islamist admits that during the Partition, when he was young, he was so filled with hate that he went out with a machete and killed two innocent Sikhs, a father and a son and a Hindu. He did not know any of his victims. He killed them because they were the first non-Muslims he saw in the streets. The memory of his crime haunts him to this day. But the mind of a believer is like a mind on drugs. He is completely dehumanized.
http://islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/Images/BangaliHindu.jpg
This Bangladeshi Hindu was caught in the street. He was brought to the mosque and was beaten to death. His pleads for mercy had no effect on the stone-hard hearts of the Muslim Satan worshippers. They chanted, "kill the kafir, kill the kafir" and shouted Allah u Akbar while Vimal Patak met his agonizing death.
Humans are not born evil, they become evil through indoctrination.




Part 1 - Ahmed Awny Shalakamy I grew up in Giza, Egypt. My father was a building contractor and was involved in Islamic activities. He was the chairman of one of the local Islamic associations and was responsible for making the call for prayer. He also gave Islamic lessons and at times spoke at the mosque on Friday.
My father hated Christians. He taught me that they are infidels who contradict themselves by saying that Jesus Christ is God while their distorted book has verses that prove he is a prophet. It was all part of the rhetoric we got used to hearing from booming mosque loudspeakers, and from the playing of radio and audio cassettes in the streets. In such an atmosphere, a Muslim child in Egypt is breast-fed hatred along with his mother's milk.

My father's association was active in many fields. It ran a dormitory for girls, a workshop, a clinic, a nursery, a madrassah to study Quran and a section for preaching Islam. The main interest of his association was to proselytize Islam by any means.

The goal of these groups was to convert Egypt into an Islamic state over a period of 50 years. Members of the royal Saudi family, who were related to the Wahabi movement and oil princes from the Gulf, financed this plan. Money was spent lavishly to seduce Christian women and girls any way possible. The cost in the seventies and early eighties was about five thousand Egyptian pounds for the entrapment of each girl. The money was split so that the Muslim man who lured the Christian woman into conversion received half and the members of the police and collaborating associations would receive the other half.

The work of the proselytizing associations in Egypt continues to take place and the payments for deceptive conversions are now higher. Today the average payment for an ordinary girl is ten thousand Egyptian pounds and payments can be as high as two hundred thousand Egyptian pounds if the girl is from a well-known Christian family, or is the daughter of a university professor, a deputy minister, or related to someone from the clergy.
Like my father, I too was involved with a proselytizing association. After we succeeded in converting a Christian woman, we would antagonize the Christians by parading the converted girl through the streets. We played loud music and waved flags while shouting "Allahu Akbar" to declare the victory of Islam.

We would also chant slogans to shame the Christians. No Christian would stand in the way of these parades, which were safeguarded by the police.
This was a normal practice until 1985 when such parades were banned. Nevertheless, we continued in our campaign to convert Christian women anyway. We were focused on converting Christian girls and women because we believed this was a greater form of humiliation for Christians. In the East, a man's honor is in his daughter, sister or wife and so disgracing any of them is the ultimate humiliation for him.


We used all kinds of tricks to get Christian women. We primarily sought to appeal to their emotions and impulses. We would also get these women involved in moral scandals and used that to coerce them to do whatever we wanted. This is what I did, while I was involved with a proselytizing association. Besides receiving payment for this work, I was convinced I received an additional reward because each time I caused a Christian woman to convert to Islam I would be awarded with an acre of land in heaven.
The following accounts are of the women that I lured into Islam through deceptive methods.
Part 2 - N.M.A.
NMA was originally from Cairo and went to college in the city where my family lived. I was in my first year of college at the time, and this was my first case of proselytizing.
She was very pretty. She had a few Muslim girl friends who told me that she was an easy catch. They arranged for me to meet her and I practiced pretending that I was madly in love, staring at her with desire and faking a quivering voice.
When NMA and I first started talking, I asked her some questions about the Christian faith. I realized I had to change my tactics if I was going to trap her. I started to convince her that I loved her and I worked on her until she fell for me. Her girl friends were aware of what was happening and helped me by talking to her about my love for her. I told her that we could marry and keep our different faiths, as Islam allows Muslims to marry the people of the book because they believe in God. I had my way with her and she became pregnant.
I secretly went to church with her a few times and I even bought Christian books, icons and the fellowship bread to convince her that I was an admirer of Christianity. I told her that I would have gladly converted to Christianity, but could not do it because I would be killed. I then told her that I loved her and could not live without her and if she converted to Islam, she would not be killed, as she was carrying our baby--the fruit of our love.
She was scared and did not know what to do. At that time, I asked her not to sever her relation with the church, to act as she normally would and as a camouflage go to church on Thursday for confession, on Friday for communion and again on Sunday for Mass. She followed my instructions and one day, as per my instructions, she arrived with her suitcase and gold jewelry, and we spent the night at my home in Gameat El Dewal El Arabia Street. On Saturday morning, she had an appointment with the person in charge at El Azhar. I arranged for her escape to the city where she attended college and where I lived until she finished her studies. I then had her name changed to Fatima El Zahra Mohamed Ali El Mahdi.
The efforts of her family and of other Christians to take her back were in vain. I made sure she was the one who adamantly refused to go back after my colleagues and I brainwashed her. My efforts were successful as she became completely convinced that she was now worshipping the true God of Islam.
After five weeks of achieving this victory for Islam and receiving my financial reward, I decided that I did not want to keep this faithless whore as my wife. She was cheap to me and was merely an object for sensual pleasure. How could I have a son with her who has in him the blood of those Christian infidels? I reasoned. I ordered her to have an abortion and I used my legitimate right to beat her. I also obliged her to work for her food. I told her she had to serve her Muslim masters who put a roof over her head and she had to be grateful that I married her and saved her from her shame.
I started to think about repeating the same game again with other women, so that I could serve my life, my religion and my after-life. I believed by doing this I would serve my religion by making the infidels embrace Islam; I would serve my life by getting financial rewards; and I would serve my after life by having many acres written in my name in heaven. I would also have a house cleaner for free. She would work for her food and when I wanted to use her for pleasure, she would be my odalisque.
I enjoyed hurting, beating and humiliating Fatima (NMA). I was positive she did not truly convert to Islam and that she has only surrendering to her female instincts. All this made me more inclined to take revenge on her. Fatima stayed with me for three years, seven months and twelve days until one Sunday in 1998 when I converted to Christianity. I was an atheist and avoided everyone, before becoming a Christian. But as I continued my research, I believe Jesus Christ showed himself to me.
I told my wife about my change of faith. She did not believe me at first. During those three years seven months and twelve days that Fatima stayed with me, I made eight girls convert to Islam. After I became a Christian, I sought to restore each of the nine women who converted because of me as well as those whom my father had converted. I am now praying for the rest of them and I keep getting good news about the coming back of one girl after the other.

Part 3 - D.B.A
When I met DBA, she was studying in a college located one and a half hours from her home. She came from a wealthy family. Her father and mother were physicians and her brothers were physicians in the Egyptian armed forces. Though she was a churchgoer, she was not religious. DBA was outgoing in her friendships with both Muslims and Christians. Yet despite her congeniality, we did not find it easy to get to her and had to resort to foul play. As Muslim men, we believed we were in a perpetual war with the "filthy infidels," and therefore it was OK to trick them.
One day I received a visit from a young Muslim man who told me he wanted to marry DBA and asked me to help him convince her to convert to Islam. After much planning, I found out that this girl's best friend was a religious Muslim. But she still considered the Christian girl her sister and I was disturbed by this. So I paid a visit to the Muslim girl and talked to her about the corrupt beliefs of Christianity and reminded her of what Allah says in the Quran (Jews and Christians won't accept you until you follow their religion) and also (Ye believers do not take Jews and Christians as friends and those who befriend them are from them, as Allah does not show the right path to the unjust). I told her that jihad against them is the duty of every Muslim and she should contribute to the victory of Islam. The Muslim girl was convinced that I was right and asked what was required of her. I told her not to show hatred toward her Christian friend, but to treat her as usual and even try to strengthen their friendship and follow all of my instructions.
I then went to a Muslim pharmacist who is a member of our association and asked him for a drug to induce hallucinations. I told him why I needed the drug. He told me he wanted to contribute to the victory of Islam and therefore he agreed to provide it. I then gave the drug to the Muslim girl and told her to dissolve two tablets in a glass of milk and give it to DBA to drink, and then call us as soon as she noticed any changes in the girl.
The Muslim girl called us as soon as DBA started to hallucinate and lose control in her apartment. When my friend and I arrived, we had a camera and a video recorder. We started joking with DBA and she was responding, not realizing what we were doing until my friend managed to strip her of her clothes and took her to the bedroom.
I recorded everything on video and took pictures for about three hours. When DBA came around, she realized what had happened and started screaming and crying. She insulted us, Islam and the prophet of Islam, and tried to tear up the Quran, which was with her girlfriend. I showed her the video tape and the photos and threatened to make copies and distribute them to her family, as well as to other Christian families. I reminded her that she would be humiliated by the scandal. She cried and fell to the ground kissing our shoes pleading with us not to do this, but we insisted that she had to do whatever we told her to do, as she knew her brothers and relatives might even kill her if they were to see that video.
She gave in. Her tears and desperation made me ecstatic. Over the next few weeks, she accompanied us to the association where she was brainwashed by the sheikhs. She could not argue with anything they said. She was miserable and never stopped crying.
We taught her what to say before it was time for her to go the police department. She followed our instructions when she was interviewed by the police. And when a police officer asked her why she wanted to convert to Islam she said that the Prophet Mohamed came to her in a dream and greeted her with the Islamic greeting calling her Aisha. Jesus was also in the dream, greeted her with the Islamic greeting and denounced all Christians saying there is no God but Allah. She said that Jesus told her that he is Allah's slave and prophet and Mohamed is Allah's prophet. Then, she said, Jesus kissed Mohamed's head and asked her to repeat after him Allah's words from the Quran (those who believe in any other religion but Islam, Allah will not accept it from them in the end, and they will be losers).
She not only said this in front of the police officers, but also to her family members and the priests who came to visit her. Her reactions during these visits, which were called counseling sessions, were staged by us and agreed on by the police before the meeting. It was all a fraud and though she was visited by different priests, she could only tell them what we had coached her to say.
After all the legal procedures were completed, we got her new ID and new Islamic name: Aisha Abdalla Elmahdy. We had achieved our plan and the Muslim man, Yasser, a Mujahid, got the girl he desired along with his financial reward, which was quite hefty because she was from a prominent Christian family. I received 25% of his share, plus my share of the amount I paid to the collaborating persons involved.
Aisha's family was dishonored and humiliated as expected. As a result, her mother sold her pharmacy and her father sold his clinic. They moved to a place where they could disappear away in the crowd in order to flee the scandal.
So Aisha married Yasser and lived as an outcast, because she was despised by her in-laws. She was married for two months when Yasser said he had enough of her and did not want to keep her anymore. He divorced her and threw her out into the street.
Since she was our sister in Islam and cannot be homeless, I took her to the association where she lived and worked as a maid, cleaning the clinic for her food and board. She stayed there for three months until she was legally allowed to re-marry. The groom to be was a Muslim who knew her story. He was a coolie and was already married with six children. During the day, he labored in the maintenance workshops of the governorate administration. Aisha did not want to marry him and begged us not to allow her to go through with it. We ignored her, and she was forced to marry a man she did not like.
She lived in misery. She worked as a maid to clean homes and sold vegetables in order to feed her husband and his children. It was impossible to imagine that she was once a girl from a wealthy family of physicians and a college student. Her life was ruined. Her second husband divorced her after five months. Since she had been married twice she did not re-marry and because many had found out about the video tapes and photos taken of her when she was drugged, she was considered unclean. She became homeless and had to spend the night in emergency camps where she lived in sub-human conditions. As she hit bottom she cried: God have mercy on me. God showed mercy and answered her prayer.
During the time she was homeless, I became a Christian was looking for the girls I tricked into converting to Islam. I found out what had become of her and went to visit her with my wife who had returned to the church. My wife and I offered to take care of her in our home. We sought to inform her parents about her situation, so I sent a relative of my wife together with a priest who talked to them. They all cried at the news and expressed their desire to see her. The family reunion was arranged in one of the churches in Cairo. It was an impressive reunion. Though I expected the parents to chastise her, they didn't and were happy to see her.



http://islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/confessions.htm

read more here

[element]

every religion has had blood on its hands- yes, even buddhism.

How about Jainism?:D

Many people might say the religion doesn't teach you to be violent, but that's really a misconception, some religions contradict themselves. I would say, Christians, if living according to Jesus teachings are at least easier off. Buddhists, Jains same thing.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but some religions are much more preaching non-violence then others.
Of course, it's up to the individual, but it's probably annoying when you have to defend scripture that supports violence!

[synergy777]

the dharmic religions eg hinduism, jainism, buddhism and sikhism are the ones who preach non violence, eg ahimsa.

these religions preach ahimsa/non violence eg compassion to all living things, thats humans, nature. they also preach self development eg intellectual and spiritual eg maths, sciences, music, poetry, meditation, yoga, tantric, kundalini etc.

they also preach to us, not to try to convert anyone eg no missionaries, that our temples are to be open to all people of all religions. also that we must uphold dharma, thus we have to defend and protect all people, of all religions from evil/oppression/injustice, we have to defend everyone. thats why i am lucky and blessed, and thank god to being born into a dharmic religion eg sikhism/hinduism/buddhism.

[kidsarocker]

Look buddy many women and men like attention and sex. Islamic men also lust after these sex objects

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=41649&page=8 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41649&page=8)

Honor killing in Islam ^^ many more examples at link above

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1024983&postcount=74

But many Muslim women feel cultural and family pressure to cover themselves. Recently a Muslim fundamentalist group in the Indian province of Kashmir demanded that women start wearing veils. When the call was ignored, hooligans threw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

read back a few pages my posts all about what islam is really about.


I know we like sex but does it need to be rammed down our throats everytime I watch television or in a movie, christ you can't have a movie without some sort of sex scene, is it really necessary? And I know what you are going to say "turn the bloody thing off" - why should I when I pay for a license and satellite, I expect to be entertained, If I want to watch sex or see half dressed women I go to a porn site or rent a porn dvd - better still have sex with my wife.

You just need to look around, it is acceptable for popstars like Christina aguilara to have raunchy videos and revealing clothes which make her look like she works the streets when her main audience is kids, just look at girls 12-14 today they look like minature women. Yes sex is a natural thing but there is way to much exposure - It is so in your face nowadays

Also notice how movie ratings get lower, as an example terminator and terminator 3 are exactly the same concept but the first one was an 18 - we live in a satanic culture and I would rather live in a christian or muslim culture than a satanic one

So get your house in order before you complain about someone else's

"read back a few pages my posts all about what islam is really about."

That is not true Isalm, only how leaders view it, you can clearly see the different practicesof islam in Saudi Arabia to Egypt

[kidsarocker]

Well said :)

We were conditioned to hate blacks
We were conditioned to hate Jews
We were conditioned to hate Indians
We were conditioned to hate Native Americans (Red Indians)
We were conditioned to hate Communists (born in a Communist country)
We were conditioned to hate Irish
We were Conditioned to hate Germans
We were conditioned to hate Italians
We were conditioned to hate Arabs
We were conditioned Muslims
Protestant hate Catholics, Catholics hate Protestants, Church of England hated the rest.

The list still goes on and on

So why do you fall for it? Are we not better than that?

[kidsarocker]

That really is absoloutely fucking awful. And muslims wonder why non muslims have a problem with islam and its ideology.....

If non Muslims have a problem with Islam then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today, people including westerners can't be converting because of all the violence it preaches can it?

[kidsarocker]

Look buddy many women and men like attention and sex. Islamic men also lust after these sex objects

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=41649&page=8 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41649&page=8)

Honor killing in Islam ^^ many more examples at link above

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1024983&postcount=74

But many Muslim women feel cultural and family pressure to cover themselves. Recently a Muslim fundamentalist group in the Indian province of Kashmir demanded that women start wearing veils. When the call was ignored, hooligans threw acid in the faces of uncovered women.

read back a few pages my posts all about what islam is really about.


There you go, you said fundamentalist groups which are so far away from Islam just like you have fundamentalist christians etc

Treating women lower than their male counterparts is not part of Isalm, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) taught his followers to respect women.

Like other religions, religious leaders twist it to their advantage and that is not the fault of Islam but by Man

[element]

If non Muslims have a problem with Islam then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today, people including westerners can't be converting because of all the violence it preaches can it?
Why? Egypt, India, Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia have big populations and most have a considerable amount of Muslims.
Also, if we look at many Islamic countries...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

[eternal_spirit]

If non Muslims have a problem with Islam then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today, people including westerners can't be converting because of all the violence it preaches can it?
Polygamy! It's simple mathematics. 5 wifes can = 30 plus children, a none Muslim woman who marrys a Muslim man has to convert to Islam, their children will be born into Islam.

There's loopholes in British law, that allows Muslim men to have multiple wives (Polygamy) because it's a religious practice it's allowed by law, even though Polygamy practiced by none Muslims in Britain is illegal.

So, they marry none Muslims who convert and then some men will bring over their other wives and familys from Islamic countries to which ever country they live and can get away with this con to spread and convert people to Islam (that's their main goal) to out breed what they call us kaffirs and infidels.

Also apostosy

What is Apostacy?

Technically, apostacy means to leave a religion. It means to once have been a member or believer in a faith and then to cease to believe or to convert to another faith or to question an important aspect of ones faith.

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1024848&postcount=71
read more here (lot's of different countries)

[kidsarocker]

Muhammad filled his holy book with the utmost bile against non-believers, advocating their deaths in huge numbers. Is that what you call a spiritual revelation?

Give some quotes from the qur'an to back your claim please.

[picha]

the important thing to note here is that true islam is a way of life, and not a religion.

please attempt to read up on its core philosophies before you attempt to cite it as a cruel, barbaric religion like so many do.

every religion has had blood on its hands- yes, even buddhism.

to tar one religion and try to make another look angelic is exactly what divides us; if only people could see that's so damn pointless in the larger scheme of things.

You dont seem to understand pink freud that the reason why islam is a cruel and barbaric religion is because the islamic prophet, the example that all muslims are supposed to live up to was infact extremely cruel and barbaric.
If the prophet of a religion behaved in such a way then there can be no better means of underatanding the true nature of that religion.

[eternal_spirit]

Muslim hatred of others is anti-Western and is part of their religion. For proof, read the passages of the Koran below.



Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."

Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."

Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."

Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."

Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."

Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought."

Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'"

Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."

Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."

Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."

Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting."

Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'"

Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."

Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling."

Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."

Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."

Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly."

Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."

Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."

Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them."

Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."

Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."

Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"

Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"

Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'"

Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty."

Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah - and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way - will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'"

Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'"

Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'"

Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'"

Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him."

Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward."

Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."

Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."

Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."

Qur'an:2:246 "He said: 'Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?' They said: 'How could we refuse to fight in Allah's Cause?'"

Ishaq:280 "The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah's command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight."

Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

Bukhari:V4B52N61 "Allah's Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight."

Ishaq:398 "Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage."

Qur'an:3:146 "How many prophets fought in Allah's Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors]."

Ishaq:393 "How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast."

Qur'an:3:153 "Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you."

Qur'an:3:154 "Say: 'Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain."

Ishaq:440 "Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad's foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword."

Ishaq:470 "We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls."

Qur'an:61:4 "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause."

Qur'an:61:11 "Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah's Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!" Qur'an 61:12 "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies."

Qur'an:8:5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting)."

Qur'an:24:53 "They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: 'Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'"

Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

Qur'an:4:75 "What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's Cause?" [Another translation says:] "What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?"

Qur'an:4:76 "Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah."

Qur'an:4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"

Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"

Qur'an:4:84 "Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah's Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you."

Qur'an:4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."

[kidsarocker]

As we were conditioned to hate everyone who had the misfortune to be born in a communist country, as we were conditioned to hate Native Americans when we watched Western movies, always portrayed them savages, ruthless, heartless and so on :)

So we should be afraid of the white man, white man caused the holocaust, white man dropped two atomic bombs, white man caused two world wars, white drove the native Americans of their land, white man have had empires, white man's media culture is based on sex, violence and crime - Christ no wonder ETs don't introduce themselves to us.

They should have slogans on every western airport "Beware the White Man"

[eternal_spirit]

Kid it's not about white, black or brown, it's about a religion that's been killing since it began 1400 years ago.

[manxboz]

Kid it's not about white, black or brown, it's about a religion that's been killing since it began 1400 years ago.

En without Religion man would still keep killing.

[raven200]

Muslim hatred of others is anti-Western and is part of their religion. For proof, read the passages of the Koran below.



Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."

Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."

Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."

Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."

Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."

Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought."

Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'"

Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."

Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."

Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."

Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting."

Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'"

Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."

Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling."

Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."

Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."

Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly."

Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."

Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."

Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them."

Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."

Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."

Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"

Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"

Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'"

Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty."

Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah - and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way - will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'"

Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'"

Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'"

Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'"

Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him."

Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward."

Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."

Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."

Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."

Qur'an:2:246 "He said: 'Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?' They said: 'How could we refuse to fight in Allah's Cause?'"

Ishaq:280 "The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah's command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight."

Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

Bukhari:V4B52N61 "Allah's Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight."

Ishaq:398 "Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage."

Qur'an:3:146 "How many prophets fought in Allah's Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors]."

Ishaq:393 "How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast."

Qur'an:3:153 "Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you."

Qur'an:3:154 "Say: 'Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain."

Ishaq:440 "Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad's foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword."

Ishaq:470 "We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls."

Qur'an:61:4 "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause."

Qur'an:61:11 "Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah's Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!" Qur'an 61:12 "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies."

Qur'an:8:5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting)."

Qur'an:24:53 "They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: 'Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'"

Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

Qur'an:4:75 "What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's Cause?" [Another translation says:] "What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?"

Qur'an:4:76 "Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah."

Qur'an:4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"

Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"

Qur'an:4:84 "Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah's Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you."

Qur'an:4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."

Answers to what the verses mean and also for what time they are talking of:

Quran9:5

"And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe prayer and pay the zakat then leave thier way free. Surely, Allah is most Forgiving, Merciful."

From the above, it is true God told the Holy prophet to do so, but this was after the non-believing idol worshipers persisted in harming the believers in the time of the holy prophet and when ever getting the opportunity, trying to kill the muslims.

Only then God told the Holy prophet to go out and fight.
Though in that verse God has still left opportunity for the Idolitors to be forgiven.

It is known in books of Hadith that many of these idolitors proclaimed that when they got caught, they would say we believe and would utter the Kalima.
The holy prophet forgave these people.

If you had read onto Chapter 9 verse 6.
you would have understood this is not what all muslims are expected to do. It was only in the time of war in the time of the Holy prophet that God had told him to defend himself.

Ch 9:6

"And if anyone of the idolators ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge."

You can see still how forgiving God was to these Idol worshipors, the war was fought with a strict conduct set by God, the Holy prophet followed it.

You cannot take ch9 v5 as what all muslims are expected to do in all the ages because it is not so.
The Holy prophet was forced to fight these people because of persecution.

I would not kill Idol worshipors now, they say nothing to me, they don't kill my people or attack me. Only God can punish them as he wishes.

[raven200]

Ok in relation to authentic books of hadith, the following are considered authentic in the muslim world:

Sahih Bukhari

Sahih Muslim

Tirmizi

Abu Dawud

Musnad of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal

Even the ones above have incorrect hadith in them, as they are purely word and mouth.
-------------------------------

Quotations from tabari are not considered to be accurate in the majority of Islamic world, it does have many discrepencies as it was written well after the time of the Holy prophet.

Therefore you are wasting time quoting from Tabari............

[raven200]

Where do Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310/923) and Ibn Sa'd claim to be the sources of the 'Hadith? It is precisely the opposite. They have only transmitted the story as of what they heard . Al-Tabari mentions the 'Hadith' story[2] in his Tarikh as well as an important set of statements in the introduction of his book,

which states:


Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.[3]

Thus, al-Tabari displayed these accounts in the manner through which he received them. Can he then be held liable if any objectionable accounts should arise, Yes because he wrote statements that he should have been able to back up? To translate this into laymen's terms, al-Tabari has simply refused accountability by avoiding the task of historical criticism. Therefore, any spurious accounts are totally to be attributed to him.

Tabari who died in 311A.H., a period very close to when the Hadith were written. Tabari wrote 30 volumes of tafsir (commentary) on the Qur'an, based on the Hadith. Later on, he wrote a history of Islam in 13 volumes based on his tafsir derived from the same Hadith. Therefore, his tafsir rests on hadith, as does his history. The Qur'an, too, is drawn through the prism of the hadiths. Thus, all his books derive their credentials from the Qur'an, but they are not based on the Qur'an. They are based on the Hadith – a spurious, later body of work.
Therefore not all his accounts can be accurate as they are not based on the Quran but on hadith, wich is word and mouth.

[raven200]

Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"

Now the above is an accurate hadith, but someone like eternal without reading it or understanding has put it down to apparently show negativity.

The holy prophets follower asked the prophet if what he had done was correct. Being extremely saddened and angered by this, the prophet asked him! Did you tear his heart and peer into it to see if he was telling the truth or not.

Meaning that who was the follower to decide if he was lying, only god knew what was really in that mans heart.

[picha]

Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"

Now the above is an accurate hadith, but someone like eternal without reading it or understanding has put it down to apparently show negativity.

The holy prophets follower asked the prophet if what he had done was correct. Being extremely saddened and angered by this, the prophet asked him! Did you tear his heart and peer into it to see if he was telling the truth or not.

Meaning that who was the follower to decide if he was lying, only god knew what was really in that mans heart.

Doesnt the fact that Mo sent him on a raiding party in the first place seem just even a tiny bit negative to you?

[raven200]

Doesnt the fact that Mo sent him on a raiding party in the first place seem just even a tiny bit negative to you?

I was just looking for the correct details of the hadith. It was not a raiding party. I shall soon putt the full hadith here.

[eternal_spirit]

Hadiths are considered divine and to be taken seriously and followed by Muslims, Shariah is the law and is all part and package of Islam.
So, it's religious dispute between Muslims interpretation. Yet the main aim of Islam is still to convert all the planet to Islam.

[flickflack]

I get angry when I see Muslims burning the flag of Israel. That is anti-Semitic behavior, and doing injustice to the Jews. And I have never understood why there is so much flag-burning by Muslim protesters... Can they not say what they mean instead of burning flags all the time? Some of them burn so many flags it seems they like to play with fire...

[adbasque]

I get angry when I see Muslims burning the flag of Israel.

Israel is a Zionist group of criminals, what else can they do to get their anger and frustration?

Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with Jews



That is anti-Semitic behavior, and doing injustice to the Jews.

Muslims are semites too, they can't be anti themselves, this notion of anti-semitism is made up by the zionist (ADL) to shut anyone who dares to criticise Israel and it's evil doing.


And I have never understood why there is so much flag-burning by Muslim protesters...
One thing to bear in mind, it's not always Muslims, don't believe everything you see mate ;) there are agent provacateur in every protest.


Can they not say what they mean instead of burning flags all the time? Some of them burn so many flags it seems they like to play with fire...

They said and said and nobody listens to them, they were ignored and victimised by the international leaders and media.

You must dig further to this to understand why they are doing it
it's not as black and white as you may probably think there's a gray area.

[pinkfreud]

I get angry when I see Muslims burning the flag of Israel. That is anti-Semitic behavior, and doing injustice to the Jews.

hey flickflack.

i'm not supporting what brainwashed individuals do in the name of religion, but since you and i both know there is a big difference between being a jew and being a zionist, i suppose you do assume the muslims in question are protesting against zionism, and not judaism per se. the israeli flag stands for zionism and all its elements, of course; hence the flag burning (don't know about other flags though, except the usa for obvious reasons.)

of course, the fact remains that an overwhelming majority does not know or understand the distinction between both 'paths' and so become rabidly anti-semitic instead of speaking out against zionism only.

this is exactly what the islamic world is deliberately being pushed into so that it creates a problem-reaction-solution triangle.

[flickflack]

Israel is a Zionist group of criminals, what else can they do to get their anger and frustration?

Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with Jews




Muslims are semites too, they can't be anti themselves, this notion of anti-semitism is made up by the zionist (ADL) to shut anyone who dares to criticise Israel and it's evil doing.











Here is a quote from my essay that I posted in the Cover-Ups forum. I did right about writing that essay, because the word Antisemitism is generally not understood here at DI forums.

What AntiSemitism?

One may argue that the Jews today are not really Semites, but does that mean haters of the Jews are not anti-Semitic? Of course not. Sometimes we have to get outside the wordbox and not take every word literally. One example is the other antiword anti-social. Does really the word anti-social mean that the person isn't social? No, it doesn't. The anti-social person could very well be a social individual, although more social in a badly manner. For instance, he may have some close friends that he openly share anti-Semitic behavior with and say outrageous claims that there was no holocaust. Because this is to continue some of the anti-Semitic brainwashing that resulted in the same thing that the anti-Semitic people often denies; and that is that the Jews where effectively murdered in the name of holocaust. Because what holocaust literally means is mass destruction of lives, usually with fire.

[eternal_spirit]

I get angry when I see Muslims burning the flag of Israel. .
You'd have to watch you don't get a knife in your back if you wander through the Muslim quater in Jerusalem, if you don't look like a Muslim.

Although same can be said for some Muslim areas in Britain.

[pinkfreud]

Some religions are a great deal worse than others.


You dont seem to understand pink freud that the reason why islam is a cruel and barbaric religion is because the islamic prophet, the example that all muslims are supposed to live up to was infact extremely cruel and barbaric.
If the prophet of a religion behaved in such a way then there can be no better means of underatanding the true nature of that religion.


my knowledge about islam is not very 'in-depth', but even so i fail to understand why mohammed being a pedophile, or mohammed being a polygamist, mohammed being a barbarian and many such things affects you or me in the long run.

it's just as dumb as arguing whether christ was a homosexual, krishna was in fact a demon, and whether buddha had 'bloodline' origins. because in the end it's going to lead you nowhere.

what sense of peace would it give you all to prove once and for all that islam is the worst religion of all? from what i can gauge this makes one become hell bent on 'winning' the whole pointless debate. so let's assume people like adbasque or the other practising muslims had nothing to say eventually and ended up agreeing to your pov.

what next? are you'll going to celebrate? clearly this is going nowhere. he's got his faith in place and you do too for the religion you follow. if you want to question its teachings or works that's fine but don't do so by putting it down and making your personal choice (or the religon you've been born into) seem like the best one. it isn't.

swethirte, sorry but christianity hasn't been all love and sunshine either. nothing ever has. and yes, though some religions openly preach non violence and tolerance, does not mean they are above the other ways of life.


grow up.

at the end of the day it doesn't matter who proves what and who's right or wrong. this is turning out to be the battle of the egos, you know.

it's a shame that even after reading david's work, some seem to be caught up trying to be one-up over another as far as organized religion is concerned. how far have you'll gone, really?

i hope that someday everyone, and i mean everyone on this forum will realise what an illusion this is and wake up. you just are and you are not answerable to anyone or anything, not even the so called gods of yore.

[alzee]

my knowledge about islam is not very 'in-depth', but even so i fail to understand why mohammed being a pedophile, or mohammed being a polygamist, mohammed being a barbarian and many such things affects you or me in the long run.

it's just as dumb as arguing whether christ was a homosexual, krishna was in fact a demon, and whether buddha had bloodline origin. because in the end it's going to lead you nowhere.

what sense of peace would it give you all to prove once and for all that islam is the worst religion of all? from what i can gauge this makes one become hell bent on 'winning' the whole pointless debate. so let's assume people like adbasque or the other practising muslims had nothing to say eventually and ended up agreeing to your pov.

what next> are you'll going to celebrate? clearly this is going nowhere. he's got his faith in place and you do too for the religon you follow.

swethirte, sorry but christianity hasn't been all love and sunshine either. nothing ever has. and yes, though some religions openly preach non violence and tolerance, does not mean they are above the other ways of life.


grow up.

at the end of the day it doesn't matter who proves what and who's right or wrong. this is turning out to be the battle of the egos, you know.

it's a shame that even after reading david's work, some seem to be caught up trying to be one-up over another as far as organized religion is concerned. how far have you'll gone, really?

i hope that someday everyone, and i mean everyone on this forum will realise what an illusion this is and wake up. you just are and you are not answerable to anyone or anything, not even the so called gods of yore.

Post of the day ^^

[flickflack]

hey flickflack.

i'm not supporting what brainwashed individuals do in the name of religion, but since you and i both know there is a big difference between being a jew and being a zionist, i suppose you do assume the muslims in question are protesting against zionism, and not judaism per se. the israeli flag stands for zionism and all its elements, of course; hence the flag burning (don't know about other flags though, except the usa for obvious reasons.)

of course, the fact remains that an overwhelming majority does not know or understand the distinction between both 'paths' and so become rabidly anti-semitic instead of speaking out against zionism only.

this is exactly what the islamic world is deliberately being pushed into so that it creates a problem-reaction-solution triangle.

They have burned the Nordic flags too. I know the Muslim community where angry at the Danish newspapers, but they could have just burned the newspapers and not the flags. Oh, and setting fire on Nordic embassies? That is to attack. It is really an act of terror if you ask me.

[adbasque]

They have burned the Nordic flags too. I know the Muslim community where angry at the Danish newspapers, but they could have just burned the newspapers and not the flags. Oh, and setting fire on Nordic embassies? That is to attack. It is really an act of terror if you ask me.

What I can't believe is your sitting here concerned about a piece of tissue being burned (flag) while the Zionist Israel burn human beings, that didn't come across as barbaric and terror?

Did it hurt anyone by burning the flag?
What sort of an argument is that?

They were pushed to do such a thing, but as always double standard, you seem to forget that entire families were wiped out in an instant by the Zionist who were waving that Flag.

Jews has nothing to do with Israel, the few Jews who support Israel are fools, I have many Jewish friends they are as opposed to Israel as anyone, because they understood, that Zionism is a movement of the Elite.

It's a Rothschild's creation (baby) wake up man and stop tlaking nonsense.

They associated themselves with Judaism after they created the two world wars after they have sacrificed many Jews, then later they created anti Jewish sentiment, they deliberately created ADL to tackle anyone who dares criticising "Israel" which is a programme, an entity created by the Rothschilds.

The news papers are controlled, they do things to provoke that same reaction you are condemning.

Always look behind the obvious.
The obvious is usually seen even by a blind, you need to learn to filter the information that goes into your head.

[eternal_spirit]

They are a mix of races, always where.

As William Guy Carr points out in Pawns in the Game, both Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange were funded by Jewish bankers. The English Revolution (1649) was the first in a series of revolutions designed to give them world hegemony. The establishment of the Bank of England by William in 1694 was the next crucial step. Behind the facade, England has been a "Jewish" state for over 300 years. (pp.20-24)

The Jewish banking families made it a practice to marry their female offspring to spendthrift European aristocrats. In Jewish law, the mixed offspring of a Jewish mother is Jewish. (The male heirs marry Jews although the Victor and Jacob Rothschild are exceptions .)

For example, in 1878 Hannah Rothschild married Lord Rosebery. who later became Prime Minister. In 1922 Louis Mountbatten, the uncle of Prince Philip and cousin of the Queen married the granddaughter of Jewish banker Ernest Cassel, one of the wealthiest men in the world. Winston Churchill's mother, Jenny (Jacobson) Jerome, was Jewish. By the beginning of the 1900s, there were very few English aristocrat families left that hadn't intermarried with Jews.

It was said that, when they visited the Continent, Europeans were surprised to see Jewish looking persons with English titles and accents.

According to L.G. Pine, the Editor of Burke's Peerage , Jews "have made themselves so closely connected with the British peerage that the two classes are unlikely to suffer loss which is not mutual. So closely linked are the Jews and the lords that a blow against the Jews in this country would not be possible without injuring the aristocracy also." (Tales of the British Aristocracy1957, p.219.)
If they aren't Jewish by intermarriage, many European aristocrats consider themselves descendents of Biblical Hebrews. The Hapsburgs are related by marriage to the Merovingians who claim to be descendents of the Tribe of Benjam.

The Queen of England may also be related to the Islamic prophet Mohammed apparantly it's well known to the Islamic Elite (afterall leaders and people in positions of power, inlcuding political and religious of Islamic countries also claim to be from Mohammed's seed.

[eternal_spirit]

It's a Rothschild's creation (baby) wake up man and stop tlaking nonsense.

They associated themselves with Judaism after they created the two world wars after they have sacrificed many Jews, then later they created anti Jewish sentiment, they deliberately created ADL to tackle anyone who dares criticising "Israel" which is a programme, an entity created by the Rothschilds.


The oldest known Rothschild went by the name of Uri Feibesch who lived in the early 16th century. His descendants lived in the House of Red Shield. His great, great, great, great Grandson was Moses Bauer, who lived in the early 18th century
Several of their ancestors have been rabbis, so the occultism probably came in the form of Jewish Cabalism, Sabbatism, or Frankism.

It was Mayer Amschel Rothschild who convinced Weishaupt to wholly accept the Frankist Cabbalist doctrine and who afterwards financed the Illuminati. Rothschild had given Weishaupt the task of restablishin the old Alumbrado movement for the Cabbalist Jews

practical Cabbala (such as Frankism) attempts to affect earthly matters. It involves the use of amulets and magic numbers as well as the conjuring of evil spirits. Both the Talmud and Midrash contain Cabbalist information. ("Ancient Oriental and Jewish Secret Doctrines, Leipzig, 1805.)

Jakob Frank (1726-1791) was the most frightening phenomenon in Jewish history, according to the Jewish professor Gershom Scholem. His actions were totally immoral. Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman shows in his book "To Eliminate the Opiate" (New York, 1974) that there was a clear connection between Frankism and Weishaupt's Illuminism. The goal of the Frankists was to work in secret to establish Jewish world supremacy. Professor Scholem has clearly documented that they achived extensive political power.

Jakob Frank (actually Leibowicz) was born in 1726, in Polish Galicia. He officially converted to Catholicism but this was just camouflage. Jakob Frank was jailed in 1760 for continuing to teach the Cabbala (Zohar) and for practising secret Jewish rituals. In 173, the Russians attacked the region of Poland where Frank was held prisoner. He was released and moved to Offenbach (near Frankfurt am Main) in Germany where he began to lead a luxurious and wild life. His deeds were evil, his personality nefarous. This information comes from Scholem's books "Cabbala" (New York and Scarborough, 1974) "Sabbatai Zevi" (New Jersey, 1973) and "The Messianic Idea in Judaism" (New York, 1971).

Jakob Frank summed up his doctrine in his book "The Words of the Lord". He asserted that the creator God was not the same as the one who had revealed himself to the Israelites. He believed God was evil. Frank proclaimed himself the true Messiah. He vowed to not tell the truth, rejected every moral law, and declared that the only way to a new society was through a total destruction of the present civilization. Murder, rape, incest and drinking of blood were perfectly acceptable actions and necessary rituals.

Frank was one of those refractory Jews who worshipped devils. The extremist Jews were particularly fond of a devil called Sammael. (C.M. Ekbohrn, "100000 frammande ord", Stockholm, 1936, p. 1173.)

[kidsarocker]

Why? Egypt, India, Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia have big populations and most have a considerable amount of Muslims.
Also, if we look at many Islamic countries...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

It is not about the population size, Islam is the fastest growing religion outside Arab lands - There are many white people converting to Islam. Why don't you find some and ask them why they converted.

I have an australian friend who converted, but I'm not going to give you the reason why she converted, do your own research

[element]

Islam is the fastest growing religion outside Arab lands - There are many white people converting to Islam. Why don't you find some and ask them why they converted.
Yeah right.. Give the statistics and we'll talk.

Perhaps it's also growing fast because of the immigrants, and European girls falling in love with Muslim guys.

I have an australian friend who converted, but I'm not going to give you the reason why she converted, do your own research

Why any person converts to a religion is beyond me.. It's a BOX.

Learn from the teachings and move on..!

It's not just one religion that has good teachings, and why identify yourself with a religion?

Oh well...

[kidsarocker]

Polygamy! It's simple mathematics. 5 wifes can = 30 plus children, a none Muslim woman who marrys a Muslim man has to convert to Islam, their children will be born into Islam.

There's loopholes in British law, that allows Muslim men to have multiple wives (Polygamy) because it's a religious practice it's allowed by law, even though Polygamy practiced by none Muslims in Britain is illegal.

So, they marry none Muslims who convert and then some men will bring over their other wives and familys from Islamic countries to which ever country they live and can get away with this con to spread and convert people to Islam (that's their main goal) to out breed what they call us kaffirs and infidels.

Also apostosy

What is Apostacy?

Technically, apostacy means to leave a religion. It means to once have been a member or believer in a faith and then to cease to believe or to convert to another faith or to question an important aspect of ones faith.

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1024848&postcount=71
read more here (lot's of different countries)


BS I have a muslim friend at work and he is married to a welsh girl and she hasn't or been forced to convert

[kidsarocker]

Polygamy! It's simple mathematics. 5 wifes can = 30 plus children, a none Muslim woman who marrys a Muslim man has to convert to Islam, their children will be born into Islam.

There's loopholes in British law, that allows Muslim men to have multiple wives (Polygamy) because it's a religious practice it's allowed by law, even though Polygamy practiced by none Muslims in Britain is illegal.

So, they marry none Muslims who convert and then some men will bring over their other wives and familys from Islamic countries to which ever country they live and can get away with this con to spread and convert people to Islam (that's their main goal) to out breed what they call us kaffirs and infidels.

Also apostosy

What is Apostacy?

Technically, apostacy means to leave a religion. It means to once have been a member or believer in a faith and then to cease to believe or to convert to another faith or to question an important aspect of ones faith.

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1024848&postcount=71
read more here (lot's of different countries)


Oh I forgot he only has one wife!

[adbasque]

Oh I forgot he only has one wife!

Yes now it's five women :rolleyes:
The last time I looked in Islam, they were only allowed up to four now it's five next year it'll be 6 and so on :rolleyes:

[picha]

BS I have a muslim friend at work and he is married to a welsh girl and she hasn't or been forced to convert

Thats probably because they are not living under sharia law (yet) in wales.

[mindrevolution]

I have read the Koran. It is by far the most evil book i have ever read. It is sickeningly evil.

I have read it and that is truthfully what i felt.

I am yet to read the bible properly might i add.


So in my opinion Islam deserves all the bad press and all the trouble it gets.

[swethirte]

Yes now it's five women :rolleyes:
The last time I looked in Islam, they were only allowed up to four now it's five next year it'll be 6 and so on :rolleyes:

Except if you're Muhammad of course, who had 11 simultaneously. That's not even counting all his female slaves whom he could rape any time he chose.

[adbasque]

at the end of the day it doesn't matter who proves what and who's right or wrong. this is turning out to be the battle of the egos, you know.

it's a shame that even after reading david's work, some seem to be caught up trying to be one-up over another as far as organized religion is concerned. how far have you'll gone, really?



You know I have to agree with you except one thing throughout this debate I have not once attacked Christianity or Another religion, the attacks seem to come one way from a group geared up to attack me personally and my faith.


However there are even some threads where we were debating other topics that had nothing whatsoever to do with religion, I was followed there and starting disrupting the debate by attacking me personally.

Go and read the debates thread about the BNP, the BNP supporters couldn't find arguments to defend their sick political party, they could only find the fact I am muslim to attack me with.

Now because I am anti BNP, I am anti Britain, First I was Middle eastern, second I was from the Basque country, now I am hateful Muslim.

Another thread about the Chinese Tiananmen Square massacre, I've been followed there to attack me and bring in Islam, what Islam has to do with anything.

It shows how people are awake they pretend to know and to be tolerant, basically they accuse others of the things they do and the way themselves really are inside.

Go and check them for yourself

I am not answering bigots anymore, they can slander, attack empty their bags of poison, as much as they want to, I reply to more rational people.

I don't have time to waste with bigots and people spreading hatred.

Christian crusades killing 10 000 Muslims in 3 days, that was a peaceful approach, but I don't accuse Christianity, I am not a fool, I accuse the people who did it at the time, some lunatic and the ones who are supporting the crusade.

Anyway I am done with these people, I have more serious things to engage in and fight the real evil as you said, who is dividing us

A lot of people here have a bit of growing up to do.

[picha]

I have read the Koran. It is by far the most evil book i have ever read. It is sickeningly evil.

I have read it and that is truthfully what i felt.

I am yet to read the bible properly might i add.


So in my opinion Islam deserves all the bad press and all the trouble it gets.

Thats exactly how I felt about it when I read it.

[siriusc]

You know I have to agree with you except one thing throughout this debate I have not once attacked Christianity or Another religion, the attacks seem to come one way from a group geared up to attack me personally and my faith.


However there are even some threads where we were debating other topics that had nothing whatsoever to do with religion, I was followed there and starting disrupting the debate by attacking me personally.

Go and read the debates thread about the BNP, the BNP supporters couldn't find arguments to defend their sick political party, they could only find the fact I am muslim to attack me with.

Now because I am anti BNP, I am anti Britain, First I was Middle eastern, second I was from the Basque country, now I am hateful Muslim.

Another thread about the Chinese Tiananmen Square massacre, I've been followed there to attack me and bring in Islam, what Islam has to do with anything.

It shows how people are awake they pretend to know and to be tolerant, basically they accuse others of the things they do and the way themselves really are inside.

Go and check them for yourself

I am not answering bigots anymore, they can slander, attack empty their bags of poison, as much as they want to, I reply to more rational people.

I don't have time to waste with bigots and people spreading hatred.

Christian crusades killing 10 000 Muslims in 3 days, that was a peaceful approach, but I don't accuse Christianity, I am not a fool, I accuse the people who did it at the time, some lunatic and the ones who are supporting the crusade.

Anyway I am done with these people, I have more serious things to engage in and fight the real evil as you said, who is dividing us

A lot of people here have a bit of growing up to do.

My grandmother always told me "if you're being attacked, you must be doing something right". At least people are reading your posts it's a step above indifference.

On the positive side, it exposes those who are so bias and have chosen to close their minds. I find it very revealing not knowing many posters on this forum.

[picha]

Except if you're Muhammad of course, who had 11 simultaneously. That's not even counting all his female slaves whom he could rape any time he chose.

He serviced them all in 1 night apparently, but thats just more proof of what a fantastic guy he was in the eyes of muslims.

Its absoloutely shocking that in the UK today or anywhere else for that matter that muslim children when they go to a muslim school get brainwashed into thinking a guy like this is the perfect example of a human being. Its a form of child abuse and just shouldnt be allowed.

[adbasque]

Lol

People (Scientists) it took them a life time and have barely managed to understand the Quoran, on this forum suddenly everybody is an expert LOL

This forum has people who can simply read through Quoran and fully understand it, and all of those idiots for centuries generation after generation lol

trying to understand the true meaning of every word, and every word depending on it's position in the sentence, and so on.

How lucky are we to have these people here, they read (English Version) most likely and they understood everything in it LOL
Wow I am very impressed!!

[picha]

Lol

People (Scientists) it took them a life time and have barely managed to understand the Quoran, on this forum suddenly everybody is an expert LOL

This forum has people who can simply read through Quoran and fully understand it, and all of those idiots for centuries generation after generation lol

trying to understand the true meaning of every word, and every word depending on it's position in the sentence, and so on.

How lucky are we to have these people here, they read (English Version) most likely and they understood everything in it LOL
Wow I am very impressed!!

Doesnt it seem logical to you that if the koran was the word of god then he/she/it would have made it as clear and as easy to understand as possible?

[swethirte]

Lol

People (Scientists) it took them a life time and have barely managed to understand the Quoran, on this forum suddenly everybody is an expert LOL

This forum has people who can simply read through Quoran and fully understand it, and all of those idiots for centuries generation after generation lol

trying to understand the true meaning of every word, and every word depending on it's position in the sentence, and so on.

How lucky are we to have these people here, they read (English Version) most likely and they understood everything in it LOL
Wow I am very impressed!!

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Koran 9:29

What's unclear about this?

[adbasque]

My grandmother always told me "if you're being attacked, you must be doing something right". At least people are reading your posts it's a step above indifference.

On the positive side, it exposes those who are so bias and have chosen to close their minds. I find it very revealing not knowing many posters on this forum.

If you look very carefully, I have chosen the title on purpose,

Is Islam hated from ignorance
I could have put it this way

Is Islam hated because of Ignorance?


The reason I did that was because I knew exactly what to expect as a reaction I was expecting this exact same attacks.
And they are not just satisfied to attack you as a person, they attack you, every Muslim on this planet, your faith, and the messenger now, no respect whatsoever.

I know for fact that most of these people, if they get a chance they'll kill you before you had a chance to explain or defend yourself.

The degree of hatred that was released here was expected.

I have heard these exact same euh.. if we call them "arguments" nobody actually challenged the spirituality of this faith.

I used to be Christian I have seen this bigorty from the west absolutely with no reason, they didn't know a single thing about Islam and they still don't as far as I can see.

The reason I started this thread, was because I have looked at the forum all I could find was slander, attacks, insults, not to mention the amount of hatred spilled.

I decided to start it just to see how long it will take before it turns into a battle ground.

:) incredible !

I am doing something right I sure hope so, I don't lie, I certainly don't hate even if I ignore some people here, I wanted to test their reaction and I was right.

I was hoping people will get together to fight the true enemy, instead of being divided for their differences whoever they maybe.

No, people are not ready to tackle any super power, I am afraid we stuck, division when people are still fighting to elect the BNP, and fight which party is the best, it explains everything and it certainly explains that we are not ready to take our freedom back.

Unfortunately and that is the sadest thing of all :(

Anyway.

[siriusc]

I have read English versions of the Quoran and found them useless. I lived in the Middle East for a number of years. When I arrived I didn't speak the language and lived in an area where foreigners didn't frequent. The people welcomed me with open arms, taught me enough of the language to communicate, shared their views of their religious beliefs and answered my ignorant questions willingly. I came to admire the culture and learned the true role of women. They are the queens, they loved the way they were treated and protected by their husbands, and most would not have it any other way.

When I returned to the US I would get bombarded with these same questions and spend hours trying to explain that people are conditioned to believe the negative press about Arab countries. I know that not all are perfect and which culture, society is? The one thing I knew is that the communities with common beliefs, goals, and respect for one another were far more desirable than what I witness everyday in the States.

[rydeon]

WOw, you got it all figured out, so that's Islam oh I must have been asleep then I didn't know that, thanks for this information

Yes every morning I wake up thinking who I am going to attack next, all these unbelievers around me :)

And I am sure all muslims, think about that, they don't have a life to live, a family to raise, all they think of is how to spill blood of others.

It's sad, so this is Islam for you, right?
Thanks BBC, CNN, Fox News, lol

You're a pro muslim fan-boy so what's the point in arguing what we already know about muslims and the ideaology that seems to hate other races and ways different from their own?

[eternal_spirit]

The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The Hadith

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu-Dawud: book 41, number 5251, Hasan)

Part 2.
The Shariah

The following reference to Shariah law comes from Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. This book comes with the approval al-Azhar University.

Al-Azhar University ( الأزهر الشريف) is the leading institution for Sunni learning in the Islamic world.

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam and is a rite of obligation amongst Jews.

However the practice has a long history in the middle east and was closely related to rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the old kingdom of Egypt myth contended that blood from circumcision to guarantee the fertility realted to the river Nile, and early Egpytian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and 120 females.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.:rolleyes: It is practised on Both male an female children born to Muslim parents as well of males of any age who join the religion. Most literature regarding circumcision is found in "hadith" these are narratives, sayings and deeds of prophet and his associates recorded by Muslim scholars and biographers. Legal discussions in the hadith literature about it resemble Talmudic discussions on issues of religious importance to Jews. Additionally the language used by the arabic sources evokes the more familiar Hebrew terminology.

Like the Quran, the different reports in the Hadith literature reveal little information concerning the reasons for male circumcision among Muslims. On the other hand reports point to one's status as a Muslim, a practitioner of the faith of Allah. Similarily other traditions teach that certain Islamic practices require the participants to be circumcise Muslims. These can include coversion, pilgramage to Mecca, inheritance, even prayer.

Shiite traditions regard the practice obligatory and tend to lead toward the extreme side on the issue. One account relates that the earth cries out to god in anguish on account of the uncircumcised. Another notes that Muslims should circumcise their sons on the seventh day, if not the earth becomes ritually contaminated for 40 days. Hadith are reported that the Prophet's grandsons Hassan and Husayn were circumcised on the seventh day after their birth and Fatima herself is quoted talking about her son's circumcision on this day.

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)

[adbasque]

I have read English versions of the Quoran and found them useless. I lived in the Middle East for a number of years. When I arrived I didn't speak the language and lived in an area where foreigners didn't frequent. The people welcomed me with open arms, taught me enough of the language to communicate, shared their views of their religious beliefs and answered my ignorant questions willingly. I came to admire the culture and learned the true role of women. They are the queens, they loved the way they were treated and protected by their husbands, and most would not have it any other way.

When I returned to the US I would get bombarded with these same questions and spend hours trying to explain that people are conditioned to believe the negative press about Arab countries. I know that not all are perfect and which culture, society is? The one thing I knew is that the communities with common beliefs, goals, and respect for one another were far more desirable than what I witness everyday in the States.

That was exactly my view, until I went and lived there and actually seen it with my own eyes, people are warm and kind really genuinly kind, they don't do it for show off.

As you said it's not perfect, the whole world isn't perfect, but the demonising of others comes from total and sheer ignorance.

I felt the same thing when I got there, I am even ashamed because I had a very reluctant approach at first.
But I am glad I did

[adbasque]

Circumcising girls it's not only false, it is forbiden in Islam, totally forbiden

I swear to god the guy here is posting lies, it doesn't exist in Islam

I have been to many Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia, and they don't do it and don't allow it.

The only people who do have it are some African tribes, they are not Christians, they are not Muslims, they are not Jews.

This is a total LIE

There are hundreds of websites misinforming people deliberately, misleading people confusing people, I have had several emails warning about those websites ran and funded by the Zionists.

[eternal_spirit]

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Koran 9:29

What's unclear about this?

The Wars to spread Islam
On pages 66 and 67 Dr. Abu Zayd confesses clearly, "The thing which compelled Abu Bakr to invade Persia and the Byzantine Empire was not to seize their abundance, but rather to spread Islam". This claim is based on evidence that the generals of the Islamic armies used to call the countries to embrace Islam before they started fighting them. Khalid Ibn al-Walid sent a message to the princes of Persia saying: "After all, accept Islam and you will be safe, or pay the tribute; otherwise I will come to you with a people who desire death as you desire drinking wine."
Yes and no, Dr. Abu Zayd! Yes, we accept your confession that the war was to spread Islam. We agree that spreading Islam was an essential incentive for war. We are content with your unequivocal confession in regard to this matter. We have written these pages in order to denote these facts and nothing more—to prove that Islam was spread by sword and that the Islamic wars were offensive wars. Your confirmation and faithful narration of history in "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" have helped us to prove this fact. Thank you.
Yet, we disagree with you when you claim that material abundance was not another reason for these wars. We will not allow you to conceal this obvious fact because you yourself have unintentionally alluded to it when you listed the reasons for the invasion of Egypt—among them were "the abundance of Egypt and its yields". More than that, ponder what the Qur’an says: "Allah (God) promises you much booty that you will capture" [Qur’an 48:20].
Or let us listen to Muhammad’s explicit statement in which he (after exhorting his warriors to fight bravely) promised the plunder of the country. Did you forget, Dr. Abu Zayd, what Muhammad said? Let me remind you. Muhammad said, "You see, God will soon make you inherit their land, their treasures and make you sleep with their women" (Lit: make their women’s beds for you).
These plain, disgraceful words are recorded by Ibn Hisham on page 182 Vol. II, of his famous book, "Al Rod Al Anf", which all the researchers regard as a reliable reference. Thus, when Muslims invaded a certain land incited by the desire to possess the land, treasures, and women, they were actually fulfilling God’s promise as it was stated in the Qur’an and in Muhammad’s pledge.

"The Beginning and the End," by Ibn Kathir (vol. 7)
We would like to quote a few incidents from this book by Ibn Kathir who is one of the ancient Muslim scholars and chroniclers and a reliable source for all students of Islamic history. On page 2, we read the following, "At the inception of the year 13 of the Hajira, Abu Bakr was determined to draft soldiers to send them to Syria in compliance with the words of the Qur’an: Fight... those who were given the Scripture (Chapter 9:9); and also follow the example of the apostle of God who gathered the Muslims together to invade Syria before his death."
He also adds on page 9: "When Abu Bakr sent Khalid to Iraq, Abu Hurayra, who was one of Muhammad’s companions, he used to exhort Muslims to fight by telling them: ‘Hasten to the Houris’ (fair, black-eyed women)."
Those Houris are the nymphs of paradise who are particularly designated for the enjoyment of Muslims.
"‘The Blood of the Byzantine is more delicious’, Khalid said!"
On page 10, Ibn Khathir tells us that when the Byzantine leaders rejected Islam or paying tribute, Khalid told them, "We are people who drink blood. We were told that there is no blood that is more delicious than the blood of the Byzantines."
Such words well suit people like Khalid, Muhammad’s beloved friend and relative.
On page 13 we read the following, "Gregorius, one of the great princes of the Byzantines, said to Khalid: ‘What do you call us for?’ Khalid answered him: ‘That you testify that there is no God but the only God and that Muhammad is His messenger and apostle, and to acknowledge all that Muhammad received from God (namely pilgrimage, fasting of Ramadan, etc.).’ Gregorius said to him: ‘And if these are not accepted?’ Khalid responded, ‘Then pay the tribute.’ Gregorius said to him: ‘If we do not give the tribute?’ Khalid said: ‘Then war!"’
Ibn Kathir acknowledges (on page 21) that when the Muslims conquered Damascus, they seized St. John’s church and converted it into the largest mosque in Damascus today (The Umayyad Mosque). On page 55, we read also about the invasion of Jerusalem. On page 123, he states, "Umar Ibn al-Khattab wrote to Abdil-Rahman Ibn Rabi’a ordering him to invade the Turks (Turkey today)."

The Second Invasion of Africa
In page 165 Ibn Kathir records for us that: "The second invasion of Africa was accomplished because its people broke their pledge. That was in year 33 of the Hajira (The Moslem Calendar)."
Of course, the people of Africa broke the pledge because that pledge was imposed on them by force in lieu of death. Yet Muslims killed thousands of them. Ibn Kathir already mentioned in page 151 that, "’Uthman Ibn ’Affan ordered ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d to invade Africa. [He told him] ‘If you conquer it take 1/25 of its booty.’ ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d marched towards it at the head of an army of 20,000 soldiers. He conquered it and killed multitudes of people from among its inhabitants until the remnant were converted to Islam and became subject to the Arabs. ’Abdalla took his portion of the booty as ’Uthman told him, then he divided the rest."
How unfortunate were the African people! They were invaded by the Arabs who killed thousands of them, divided the booty, and forced the remnant to embrace Islam. When they broke the pact, the Muslims attacked them again. But are the black African people the only unfortunate people? Or are all the people of Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, all the Arab tribes, Spain, even the people of China and India, Cyprus and the Kurds, all the unfortunate peoples? All of these are unfortunate nations who became the victims of Islamic Law which detests human rights and persistently ignores their freedom.


The Invasion of Cyprus and the Kurds
Ibn Kathir tells us that in the year 28 of the Hajira, the conquest of Cyprus was accomplished after ’Abdulla Ibn al-Zubayr slaughtered a multitude of people—as usual. Ibn Khaldun also tells the story of the Kurds. In page 124 of Vol. II, he says, "Muslims met a number of Kurds. They called them to embrace Islam or pay the tribute. When they refused to do so they killed them and captured their women and children, then divided the booty."
As we see, Ibn Khaldun along with Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari and other chroniclers, ancient and contemporary such as Dr. Abu Zayd, recorded all the Islamic historical events in detail. Moreover, on every occasion Arab newspapers allude boastfully to these memorial episodes of Islamic history and shed light on these savage, wild offensive wars. For instance, we read in the prestigious Ahram newspaper which is published in Egypt, the following, "During the era of the Caliph ’Umar Ibn ’Abdul-’Aziz, Ibn Qutayba in the year 88H, he invaded some of the neighboring countries of Iran such as Bukhara, and Samarq and marched close to the Chinese border" (refer to the Ahram, Mary 26, 1986, p. 13).
In his book, "The Beginning and the End" (part 9), Ibn Kathir narrates in detail the history of this belligerent general, Ibn Qutayba. He records the story of his campaigns and refers to his biography.
We would like to conclude this chapter with a brief summary which Taqiy al-Din al-Nabahani presents in his book, "The Islamic State" (pp. 121 and 122). He summarizes the history of Islamic offensive wars against the neighboring peaceful countries by saying, "Muhammad had begun to send troops and initiate campaigns against the Syrian borders such as the campaign of Mu’ta and Tabuk. Then the rightly guided caliphs ruled after him and the conquest continued. (The Arabs) conquered Iraq, Persia, and Syria whose faith was Christianity and which were inhabited by the Syrians, Armenians, some Jews and some Byzantines. Then Egypt and North Africa were conquered. When the Umayyad took over after the rightly guided caliphs, they conquered the Sind, Khawarizm, and Samarqand. They annexed them to the lands of the Islamic state."
According to all Muslim chroniclers, it is well documented that Armenia and Morocco were conquered during the era of ’Abdul-Malik Ibn Marwan. When his son, al-Walid, assumed the throne, he invaded India and Andalusia.
Also, Dr. ’Afifi Abdul-Fattah, the Muslim scholar, encapsulates the whole principle in a few explicit, straightforward words, as he says (page 382 of his famous book "The Spirit of the Islamic Religion"), "Islam has acknowledged war in order to exalt the word of God. This is a fight for God’s cause."
He also adds in p. 390, "Before the Islamic state declares war against another state, it should give (the other state) the choice between Islam, tribute or war."
We need not say anything more than that. Maybe this is what Muslims mean when they say, "We believe in human freedom and man’s right to choose according to his own will! We present him with three options, and he has the right to choose as he wishes — either to become a Muslim and pay alms to the Caliph of the Muslims, or pay the tribute and submit to Islamic rule, or we kill him."
Let the reader ponder the Muslim contradiction that a man has the right to choose whatever he wants within the Islamic context of individual freedom.


Conclusion
These are the Islamic offensive wars, my dear reader. We have already surveyed the Qur’anic verses which were expounded by both the great ancient and the contemporary Muslim scholars. We also alluded to the sayings of Muhammad, his own deeds and his orders to his companions, relatives and successors. We witnessed the bloody events of Islamic history narrating for us what Muslims did after the death of Muhammad and how they carried out his orders and the commandments of the Qur’an—how they fought with the People of the Book, the Jew and the Christian, until they paid tribute with humiliation and defeat. We have witnessed how they plundered the lands, killed the unfortunate, and captured women and children for no reason.
Moreover, we have already discussed all the matters pertaining to the death penalty of an apostate who dares to relinquish the Islamic faith and to embrace another religion, or to become an atheist. We also referred to an abundance of evidences and interpretations of Muslim scholars along with the deeds and sayings of Muhammad in this respect. He himself gave orders to kill anyone who is an apostate from Islam such as Umm Mirwan as the Azhar and all the Chroniclers denoted, and all those apostates who fled to Mecca.
Regarding offensive wars or imposing the Islamic religion on people by war, Muhammad said: "I was commanded to fight people until they say there is no God but the only God, and Muhammad is the apostle of God, and they perform all the Islamic ordinances and rituals."
We also examined Muhammad’s attitude towards the apostate. He made it clear that the apostate must be sentenced to death. He said about those who relinquish Islam: "Whoever changes his faith...kill him!"
Muhammad indicated that is it unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three cases: Unbelief after belief, adultery after integrity (or being married) and killing a soul without any right. The first case refers to the death penalty of the apostate and the oppression of his freedom and right to embrace any religion other than Islam Those are the clear claims of the Islamic religion as well as of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, who always uttered at the beginning of every prayer or sermon, the following phrase, "In the name of Allah—the Compassionate, the Merciful!"
We talked about individual freedom and human rights! This is the prophet of freedom, mercy, tolerance and human dignity!
Has the veil been removed?
Is the deception over?
Judge for yourself.


http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabana/TruthAboutIslam3.htm

[adbasque]

You're a pro muslim fan-boy so what's the point in arguing what we already know about muslims and the ideaology that seems to hate other races and ways different from their own?

Listen to me BOY, I am a muslim, I am not a pro Muslim, I am simply a Muslim
I am not arguing I am exposing some liars that's all.

Do you want me to sit back and accept the lies that are spread every minute here?
you're right I am replying to more rational people, people with brains. not people who are posting pages and pages of lies right from the source of lies.

There are 100s of websites full of shit and lies about Islam, that's all they do all day long, learn about Islam and twist everything they gather and post it on their website for some donkeys to read and believe.

Islam is NOT a race, hello!!! :)

Islam hates all races
that's why you find every colour, every background, every class in it.

Oh yeah Islam is very racist of course.

[adbasque]

MEDICAL BENEFITS FROM CIRCUMCISION

Historically circumcision has been a topic of emotive and often irrational debate. At least part of the reason is that a sex organ is involved. (Compare, for example, ear piercing.) During the past two decades the medical profession in Australia have tended to advise parents not to circumcise their baby boys. In fact there have even been reports of harrassment by medical professionals of new mothers, especially those belonging to religious groups that practice circumcision, in an attempt to stop them having this procedure carried out. Such attitudes are a far cry from the situation years ago when baby boys were circumcised routinely in Australia. But over the past 20 years the rate has declined to as low as 16-19%.


However, a reversal of this trend is starting to occur. In the light of an increasing volume of medical scientific evidence pointing to the benefits of neonatal circumcision a new policy statement was formulated by a working party of the Australian College of Pediatrics in August 1995 and adopted by the College in May 1996 [6]. In this document medical practitioners are now urged to fully inform parents of the benefits of having their male children circumcised. Similar recommendations were made recently by the Canadian Paediatric Society who also conducted an evaluation of the literature, although concluded that the benefits and harms were very evenly balanced [37]. The American Academy of Pediatrics has moved far closer to an advocacy position and many recognised authorities in the USA strongly advocate circumcision of all newborn boys. More details of their statements appear later.


In the present literature review I would like to focus principally on the protection afforded by circumcision against infection by micro-organisms, some of which can cause disease and even death, but will also touch on other aspects, including sexual benefits.

I might add that I am a university academic who teaches medical and science students and who does medical research, including that involving genital cancer virology, as well as molecular biology and genetics of cardiovascular disease.
I am not Jewish, nor a medical practitioner or lawyer, so have no religious bias or medico-legal concerns that might get in the way of a rational presentation of the information that has been published in reputable journals.


History

Circumcision has been practiced widely in Western countries this century. In the USA it increased from 8% in 1870 to 56% in 1910 [98]. In Britain it rose from 19% for those born in 1914 to 22% for 1924 and 30% for 1930 [98]. From at least the mid-1940s to mid-1970s over 90% of boys in the USA and Australia were circumcised soon after birth. The major benefits at that time were seen as improved lifetime genital hygiene, elimination of phimosis (inability to retract the foreskin) and prevention of penile cancer.

A trend not to circumcise started in the mid to late 1970s, after the American Academy of Pediatrics Committee for the Newborn stated, in 1971, that there are ‘no valid medical indications for circumcision’ [19]. However, in 1975 this was modified to ‘no absolute valid ... ’ [134], which remained in the 1983 statement, but in 1989 it changed significantly to ‘New evidence has suggested possible medical benefits ...’ [3]. A new statement is to appear in 1998.

Dr Edgar Schoen, Chairman of the Task Force on Circumcision of the American Academy of Pediatrics, has stated that the benefits of routine circumcision of newborns as a preventative health measure far exceed the risks of the procedure [115].

During the period 1985-92 there was an increase in the frequency of postnewborn circumcision and during that same time Schoen points out that the association of lack of circumcison and urinary tract infection (UTI) has moved from ‘suggestive’ to ‘conclusive’ [115].

Moreover, it heralded the finding of associations with other infectious agents, including HIV.

In fact he goes on to say that ‘Current newborn circumcision may be considered a preventative health measure analogous to immunization in that side effects and complications are immediate and usually minor, but benefits accrue for a lifetime’ [115].

Benefits included: a decrease in physical problems involving a tight foreskin [92], lower incidence of inflammation of the head of the penis [32][33][36][138], reduced urinary tract infections, problems with erections, especially at puberty, decrease in certain sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) such as HIV, and, in older men, elimination of penile cancer and a decrease in urological problems and infections [reviewed in 3,6,37,69,110,113]. Therefore the benefits are different at different ages.


Neonatologists only see the problems of the operation itself. Moreover such problems occur in only a minor proportion of boys, and generally because of poor technique by an inexperienced operator. However, urologists who see and have to treat the problems of uncircumcised men cannot understand why all newborns are not circumcised [113,115].

Other health care workers in hospitals and aged care homes also have adverse comments about the uncircumcised penises they see. The demand for circumcision later in childhood has increased, but, with age, there is an inevitable increase in worry to the boy or man in the lead up to having this done, and there may be a more visible scar left.

This, coupled with the advantages of early circumcison, led Schoen to state ‘Current evidence concerning the life-time medical benefit of newborn circumcision favours an affirmative choice’.

Anti-circumcision lobby groups


There are several of these. One of the largest is ‘NOCIRC’. In a letter written by Dr Schoen to Dr Terry Russell in Brisbane in 1994 Schoen derides ‘NOCIRC’ for their use of ‘distortions, anecdotes and testimonials to try to influence professional and legislative bodies and the public, stating that in the

past few years they have become increasingly desperate and outrageous as the medical literature has documented the benefits. For example they have compared circumcision with female genital mutilation, which is equivalent to cutting off the penis. In 1993 the rate of circumcision had risen to 80% in the USA and Schoen suggests that ‘Perhaps NOCIRC has decided to export their

"message" to Australia since their efforts are proving increasingly futile in the USA’. One only has to do a search on the World Wide Web to read the statements from this group and others like it and any intelligent person can quickly make up their own mind about the quality of their material and the message they are trying to promulgate. Some of these people mean well and some are intelligent, but lack a broad perspective.

Dr Schoen also noted that when Chairman of the Task Force his committee was bombarded with inaccurate and misleading communications from this group. A member of NOCIRC emailed me from the USA to say: "I've come to learn I can't trust [NOCIRC] when it comes to this subject.

I think they are causing a tremendous degree of pyschological harm with their campaign and I've suffered a lot from their nonsense."

The anti-circ. groups have an array of literature and even publish their own ‘journal’, ‘Circumcision’, which appears only on the world-wide web, and includes articles that are not subjected to unbiassed peer review. This propaganda vehicle should really be titled ‘Anti-circumcision’. The Editor of this ‘journal’ is an outspoken critic of circumcision. His writings appear superficailly convincing to the naive. However, various authorities have shown how he distorts, misquotes, and misrepresents the bulk of the literature he claims support his opinions and even misconstrues his own published findings (on balanitis) [154]. The anti-circ. documents quote a Dr Paul Fleiss extensively. Fleiss was given a suspended sentence for laundering the business proceeds of his infamous daughter, Heidi Fleiss, the Hollywood madam who provided prostitutes to celebrities. This raises the question of credibility.

Another of these groups is ‘UNCIRC’, which promotes procedures to reverse circumcision, by, for example, stretching the loose skin on the shaft of the retracted penis or the use of surgery. This has led to genital mutilation [140]. Claimed benefits of ‘increased sensitivity’ in reality appear to be a result of the friction of the foreskin, whether intact or newly created, on the moist or sweaty glans and undersurface of the prepuce in the unaroused state and would obviously in the ‘re-uncircumcised’ penis have nothing to do with an increase in touch receptors. Indeed, nerves do not regenerate. Moreover, the sensitivity during sexual intercourse is in fact identical, according to men circumcised as adults. In the first detailed professional analysis of psychiatric aspects eight patients seeking prepuce restoration were studied and several psychological disorders were noted [82]. These included narcissistic and exhibitionistic body image, depressions, major defects in early mothering, and ego pathology. These men had a preoccupation with their absent foreskins and represented a subgroup within the homosexual community [82]. Subsequently some skin-stretchers can now be found amongst heterosexuals, representing 10% of the 1,200 members of one ‘uncirc’ organization (cf. 80% homosexual and 10% bisexual), with 65% uncircumcised, 30% circumcised, and 5% partially circumcised. Although many were happy with the result (thus justifying to themselves the decision to undertake this ordeal), others disliked their new genital status, even choosing to undergo recircumcision [117].

Benefits outweigh the risks

Dr Tom Wiswell, a respected authority in the USA was a strong opponent, but then switched camps as a result of his own research findings and the findings of others. This is what he has to say: "As a pediatrician and neonatologist, I am a child advocate and try to do what is best for children. For many years I was an outspoken opponent of circumcision ... I have gradually changed my opinion" [149,150]. This ability to keep an open mind on the issue and to make a sound judgement on the balance of all available information is to his credit — he did change his mind!

Wiswell looked at the complication rates of having or not having it performed in a study of 136,000 boys born in US army hospitals between 1980 and 1985. 100,000 were circumcised and 193 (0.19%) had complications, with no deaths, but of the 36,000 who were not circumcised the complication rate was 0.24% and there were 2 deaths [156]. A study by others found that of the 11,000 circumcisions performed at New York’s Sloane Hospital in 1989, only 6 led to complications, none of which were fatal [110]. An early survey saw only one death amongst 566,483 baby boys circumcised in New York between 1939 and 1951 [125]. (There are no deaths today.)

A retrospective study of boys aged 4 months to 12 years found significantly greater frequency of penile problems (14% vs 6%; P < 0.001) and medical visits for penile problems (10% vs 5%; P < 0.05) among those who were uncircumcised, compared with those who were circumcised [51]

Pain and memory

No adverse psychological aftermath has been demonstrated [112]. It must be recognised that there are many painful experiences encountered by the child before, during and after birth [79]. Circumcision, if performed without anaesthetic is one of these. Cortisol levels have registered an increase during and shortly after the procedure [131,132], indicating that the baby is not unaware of having had something painful done in its unanaesthetized state. Neverthless, some babies show no signs of distress at all. Most do, however, and this may be contributed by the restraining procedure, as well as the surgery itself. In the past doctors and parents had to weigh up the need to inflict this short term pain in the context of a lifetime of gain from prevention or reduction of subsequent problems. However, today, effective anaesthetic procedures are available that make circumcsion virtually pain-free. These will be discussed later.

Penile hygiene

The proponents of not circumcising nevertheless stress that lifelong penile hygiene is required. This acknowledges that something harmful or unpleasant is happening under the prepuce. Studies of middle class British [57,110] and Scandanavian [95] schoolboys concluded that penile hygiene, as such, is at best poor and at worst nonexistant. Furthermore, Dr Terry Russell, an Australian medical practitioner states ‘What man after a night of passion is going to perform penile hygiene before rolling over and snoring the night away (with pathogenic organisms multiplying in the warm moist environment under the prepuce)’[110]. The bacteria start multiplying again immediately after washing and contribute, along with skin secretions, to the whitish film, termed ‘smegma’, that is found under the foreskin. Bacteria give off an offensive odour. Men differ in their sensitivity to this smell and some shower several times a day as a result. Some uncircumcised men, and/or their partners, find the stench so unpleasant that this smell has caused these men to seek a circumcision on this basis alone. For mothers and fathers, it is far easier to maintain cleanliness of their son’s penis if it is circumcised. If their son isn’t the messages are confusing: should they clean under the foreskin or leave it alone?

What motivates parents to get their baby boy circumcised and the rates

The reasons for circumcision, at least in a survey carried out as part of a study at Sydney Hospital, were: 3% for religious reasons, 1-2% for medical, with the remainder suggested by the researchers as ‘to be like dad’ or a preference of one or both parents for whatever reason [30]. The main reason may have more to do with hygiene and apearance, as will be discussed later in the section on socio-sexual aspects. The actual proportion of men who were circumcised when examined at this clinic was 62%. Of those studied, 95% were Caucasian, with younger men just as likely to be circumcised as older men. In Adelaide, South Australia, a similar proportion has been noted, with 55% of younger men being circumcised. In Britain, however, the rate is only 7-10%, much like Europe. Rates in Africa, Asia and India vary according to religion and cuture, with higher rates amongst Muslims and certain tribes and low rates amongst other groups and nations. In the USA, as indicated above, the rate of circumcision has always been high, although differs in different regions: the rates for 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1994 in the northeast region were 62%, 68%, 65% and 70%, in each respective year; for the midwest they were 78%, 78%, 74% and 80%, respectively; for the southern region: 64%, 63%, 61% and 65%; and for the western region: 41%, 38%, 36% and 34% [88]. The actual rates are higher than indicated by this data, as they represent only the numbers reported, whereas not all are [44]. Even when they are supposed to be, they are often not listed on the medical record face sheet used in NCHS surveys, so that when the oversights were corrected in one study, infant circumcision rate increased from 75% to 89% [91].

In Canada the rate varies markedly between different regions. Even in the same province, Ontario, for example, the rate between different districts ranges from 2% to 70%, with a mean of around 50%. (Data from Ontario Ministry of Health and Statistics Canada, and Institute for Clinical Evaluative Sciences.)

Physical problems

Phimosis(inability to retract the foreskin) is normal in very young boys, but is gone by age 3 in 90%. If still present after age 6 it is regarded as a problem and affects 2-10% of uncircumcised males. The narrow foreskin opening causes urinary obstruction that can be partial or complete. Backward pressure to the kidney may impede its function and lead to high blood pressure, which is associated with increased risk of heart attack ot stroke.

Paraphimosis (where the retracted foreskin cannot be brought back again over the glans) is a very painful problem, relieved by circumcision or slitting the dorsal surface of the foreskin.

To paediatric surgeons, the most obvious medical reasons for circumcision are balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and posthitis (inflammation of the foreskin), which are very painful conditions virtually limited to uncircumcised males. In babies, balanitis is caused by soiled diapers, playing and sitting in dirty areas, antibiotic therapy, as well as yeast and other micro-organisms. The incidence of balanitis is twice as high in uncircumcised boys [40,52] and is greater than 5-fold higher in uncircumcised adults [36]. Balanitis caused by the group A haemolytic variety of streptococcus is present exclusively in uncircumcised boys [93]. Balanoposthitis (inflammation of the foreskin and glans) is common in uncircumcised diabetic men owing to a weakened, shrunken penis [36] and such men also have more intercourse problems. Diabetes is common and inherited, so a family history of this disease may add to considerations about whether to circumcise at birth.

The foreskin of uncircumcised boys can become accidentally entrapped in zippers, resulting in pain, trauma, swelling and scarring of this appendage.

In elderly men, infections and pain from balanoposthitis, phimosis and paraphimosis are seen and carers report problems in achieving optimal hygiene in uncircumcised men. The need for an appliance for urinary drainage in quadraplegics and in senile men is facilitated if they are circumcised. Boys and men who are not circumcised can be a source of irritation if they do not retract the foreskin when they urinate, as ‘splatter’ will occur. Although not a medical problem, it is a source of annoyance for other people (such as a parent or partner) if it is they that have the job of cleaning the bathroom. Foreskin problems also mean intercourse is painful.

Another condition, Frenular chordee, results from an unusually thick and often tight frenulum and prevents the foreskin from fully retracting, being present in a quarter of all uncircumcised males [47]. The frenulum then tears during intercourse or masturbation. Since scar tissue is generally more fragile and less elastic than normal tissue, the tear often reoccurs causing pain, bleeding and the inabilitiy to have sexual relations. This problem can be solved by excising the frenulum during a circumcision. Frenoplasty (removing just the tight frenulum) is also possible.

Follow-up 5 years later of 117 boys circumcised for phimosis, balanitis scarring of the prepuce, or ballooning when urinating found that 95% expressed complete satisfaction and the only psychological effect was slight shyness in the school change-room in 9% of boys in this Swedish study [128,129]. The study showed that parents had nothing to fear for their son’s psychological well-being from circumcision.

Neonatal uninary tract infections

In 1982 it was reported that 95% of UTIs in boys aged 5 days to 8 months were in uncircumcised infants [45]. This was confirmed by Wiswell [157] and a few years later Wiswell and colleagues found that in 5,261 infants born at one US Army hospital, 4% of UTI cases were in uncircumcised males, but only 0.2% in those who were circumcised [158]. Wiswell then went on to examine the records for 427,698 infants (219,755 boys) born in US Armed Forces hospitals from 1975-79 and found that the uncircumcised had an 11-fold higher incidence of UTIs [155]. During this decade the frequency of circumcision in the USA decreased from 84% to 74% and this decrease was associated with an increase in rate of UTI [159]. Reviews by others in the mid-80s concluded there was a lower incidence in circumcised boys [74,107]. The rate in girls was stable during the period it was increasing in boys, in whom circumcision was in a decline. In a 1993 study by Wiswell of 209,399 infants born between 1985 and 1990 in US Army hospitals world-wide, 1046 (496 boys) got UTI in their first year of life [156]. The number was equal for boys and girls, but was 10-times higher for uncircumcised boys. Among the uncircumcised boys younger than 3 months, 23% had bacteraemia, caused by the same organism responsible for the UTI. It should be noted that these studies gave figures for infants admitted to hospital for UTI, so that the actual rate would undoubtedly have been higher. The infection can travel up the urinary tract to affect the kidney and a higher rate of problems such as pyelonephritis and renal scarring (seen in 7.5% [148]) is reported in uncircumcised children [109,130]. These and other reports [e.g., 23,45,51,109,120,130] all point to the benefits of circumcision in reducing UTI.

Indeed, Wiswell performed a meta-analysis of all 9 studies that had been published up until 1992 and found that every one had found an increase in UTI in the uncircumcised [156]. The average was 12-fold higher and the range was 5 to 89-fold, with 95% confidence intervals of 11-14 [156]. Meta-analyses by others have reached similar conclusions.

In Australia, a relatively small study in Sydney involving boys under 5 years of age (mean 6 months) found that 6% of uncircumcised boys got a UTI, but only 1% of circumcised [22].

The benefit appears to extend beyond childhood and into adult life. In a study of men aged, on average, 30 years, and matched for race, age and sexual activity, the circumcised had a lower rate of UTI [124].

The fact that fimbriated strains of the bacterium Escherichia coli which are pathogenic to the urinary tract and pyelonephritogenic, have been shown to be capable of adhering to the foreskin, satisfies one of the criteria for causality [41,46,58,59,130,159,160]. Thus in infancy and childhood the prepuce becomes colonized with bacteria. Fimbriated strains of Proteus mirabilis, non-fimbriated Pseudomonas, as well as species of Klebsiella and Serratia also bind closely to the mucosal surface of the foreskin within the first few days of life [41,46,160]. Circumcision prevents such colonization and subsequent ascending infection of the urinary tract [107].

A recent report found that swabs were taken of the periurethral area (the region of the penis where urine is discharged) in 46 circumcised and 125 uncircumcised healthy males (mean age = 27; range = 2 to 54 years) showed a predominance of Gram positive cocci in both groups, facultative Gram negative rods in 17% of uncircumcised males, but in only 4% of circumcised (P = 0.01); streptococci, strict anaerobes (bacteria that can grow without oxygen) and genital mycoplasms (bacteria that lack a cell wall) were found almost exclusively in uncircumcised males over the age of 15 years (82% of the study group) [119]. Since these organisms are common inhabitants of the female genital tract, aquisition via sexual transmission was suggested. These latter categories of bacteria, unlike the Gram positive cocci, are potential pathogens capable of causing UTIs. It was speculated that when Gram negative organisms are the only colonizers of the preputial space they achieve higher concentrations and that the quantitative difference may contribute to the development of UTI. The findings of this study provide a microbiological basis for the observed higher risk of UTI in uncircumcised adult men. The authors also concluded that their results pointed to a role for the prepuce as a reservoir for sexually transmitted organisms [119].

Since the absolute risk of UTI in uncircumcised boys is approx. 1 in 25 (0.05) and in circumcised boys is 1 in 500 (0.002), the absolute risk reduction is 0.048. Thus 20 baby boys need to be circumcised to prevent one UTI. However, the potential seriousness and pain of UTI, which can in rare cases even lead to death, should weigh heavily on the minds of parents. The complications of UTI that can lead to death are: kidney failure, meningitis and infection of bone marrow. The data thus show that much suffering has resulted from leaving the foreskin intact. Lifelong genital hygiene in an attempt to reduce such infections is also part of the price that would have to be paid if the foreskin were to be retained. However, given the difficulty in keeping bacteria at bay in this part of the body [95,115], not performing circumcision would appear to be far less effective than having it done in the first instance [115].

Sexually-transmitted diseases

In 1947 a study of 1,300 consecutive patients in a Canadian Army unit showed that being uncircumcised was associated with a 9-fold higher risk of syphilis and 3-times more gonorrhea [147]. Work in the mid-70s showed higher chancroid, syphilis, papillomavirus and herpes in uncircumcised men [133]. At the University of Western Australia a 1983 study showed twice as much herpes and gonorrhea, 5-times more candidiasis and 5-fold greater incidence of syphilis [97]. Others have reported higher rates of nongonococcal urethritis in uncircumcised men [123]. In South Australia a study in 1992 showed that uncircumcised men had more chlamidia (odds ratio 1.3) and gonoccocal infections (odds ratio 2.1). Similarly in 1988 a study in Seattle of 2,800 heterosexual men reported higher syphilis and gonnorrhea in uncircumcised men, but no difference in herpes, chlamidia and non-specific urethritis (NSU). Like this report, a study in 1994 in the USA, found higher gonnorhea and syphilis, but no difference in other common STDs [20]. In the same year Dr Basil Donovan and associates reported the results of a study of 300 consecutive heterosexual male patients attending Sydney STD Centre at Sydney Hospital [30]. They found no difference in genital herpes, NSU, seropositivity for HSV-2 and genital warts (i.e., the benign, so-called ‘low-risk’ human papillomavirus types 6 and 11, which are visible on physical examination, unlike the ‘high-risk’ types 16 and 18, which are not). As mentioned above, 62% were circumcised and the two groups had a similar age, number of partners and education. Gonorrhea, syphilis and hepatitis B were too uncommon in this Sydney study for them to conclude anything about these other STDs. Similar findings were obtained in the National Health and Social Life Survey in the USA, which asked about gonnorrhea, syphilis, chlamidia, nongonoccocal urethritis, herpes and HIV (which is more often aquired intravenously) [72], although some under-reporting by uncircumcised men was likely as they tended to be less educated. Also, circumcision at birth was assumed, so that the number who sought circumcision later in life for problems, such as STDs and/or other infections, and therefore had switched group, was not taken into account. Design aspects of a number of the studies have in fact been criticised. As a result there is still no overwhelming agreement. Nevertheless, on the bulk of evidence it would seem that at least some STDs could be more common in the uncircumcised, but this conclusion is by no means absolute in western settings, and the incidence may be influenced by factors such as the degree of genital hygiene, availability of running water and socioeconomic group being studied. In some more recent studies in developed nations, in which hygiene is good, no difference was apparent.

Cancer of the penis

The incidence of penile cancer in the USA is 1 per 100,000 men per year (i.e., 750-1000 cases annually) and mortality rate is 25-33% [66,76]. It represents approximately 1% of all malignancies in men in the USA. This data has to be viewed, moreover, in the context of the high proportion of circumcised men in the USA, especially in older age groups, and the age group affected, where older men represent only a portion of the total male population. Thus 1 in 100,000 per year of life translates to 75 in 100,000 during each man’s lifetime, but since it occurs almost entirely in uncircumcised men, if we assume that these represent 30% of males in the USA, the chance an uncircumcised man will get it would be 75 per 30,000 = 1 in 400. In a study in Melbourne in 1990, although 60% of affected men were over 60 years of age, 40% were under 60 [111]. In 5 major series in the USA since 1932 [161], not one man with penile cancer had been circumcised neonatally [76], i.e., this disease is almost completely confined to uncircumcised men and, less commonly, in those circumcised after the newborn period. In fact penile cancer is so rare in a circumcised man, that when it does occur it can be the subject of a published case report [60]. The finite residual risk in those circumcised after the newborn period is the major contributing factor to estimates of lifetime risk in the total population of circumcised men of 1 in 50,000 to 1 in 12,000,000 [151,152]. Overall there have been 50,000 cases of penile cancer in the USA since the early 1930s and these resulted in 10,000 deaths. Only 10 of these cases were in circumcised men [114], and, as indicated, these had been circumcised later in life. The predicted life-time risk for an uncircumcised man has been estimated as 1 in 600 in the USA and 1 in 900 in Denmark [66]. In Denmark (circumcision rate = 2%), penile cancer has been decreasing steadily [39] in parallel with an increase in indoor b athrooms. Urban unmarried men were more likely to get it. Since the rate of penile cancer in Denmark is lower than in the USA other factors besides circumcision are also at work in these climatically, genetically and culturally different countries. The statistics for Denmark have been used by anti-circs to draw a sweeping and fallacious conclusion about lack of circumcison per se in penile cancer. The Danish themselves have concluded that although their uncircumcised men are at lower risk, this is only 1 in 900 as opposed to 1 in 600 in the USA, as stated above [66].

In underdeveloped countries the incidence is higher: approx. 3-6 cases per 100,000 per year [66]. In those underdeveloped countries where circumcision is not routinely practiced it can be ten times more common than in developed countries, representing 11% to 12% of all male cancers [87]. In Uganda it is the most common malignancy in males, leading to calls for greater circumcision in that country [29].

In Australia, figures from the New South Wales Cancer Council (for 1993) show 28 cases per year (including one in a child), with 5 deaths, which is similar to the 1 in 100,000 figure above and applies to a population in which the majority of the older men are circumcised. The rate could be set to escalate, however, as more of the males who were not circumcised during the period after the mid 1970s reach the ages when this cancer generally begins to appear.

The so-called ‘high-risk’ human papillomavirus types 16 and 18 (HPV 16/18) are found in a large proportion of cases and there is good reason to suspect that they are involved in the causation of penile cancer [78], as is true for most, if not all, cases of cervical cancer (see below). HPV 16 and 18 are, moreover, more common in uncircumcised males [90]. These types of HPV produce flat warts that are normally only visible by application of dilute acetic acid (vinegar) to the penis and the data on high-risk HPVs should not be confused with the incidence figures for genital warts, which although large and readily visible, are caused by the relatively benign HPV types 6 and 11 [62]. 93% of men whose female partner was positive for early signs of cervical cancer (cervical intraepithelial neoplasia, CIN) had the male equivalant, penile intraepithelial neoplasia (PIN) [8]. Oncogenic HPV was present in 75% of patients with PIN grade I, 93% with PIN grade II and 100% of PIN grade III, which is one step before penile cancer itself [8]. Moreover, the rate of PIN was 10% in uncircumcised men cf. only 6% in circumcised men [8]. Other factors, such as smoking, poor hygiene and other STDs have been suspected as contributing to penile cancer as well [14,76], but it would seem that lack of circumcision is the primary prerequisite, with such other factors adding to the risk in the uncircumcised man. Financial considerations are, moreover, not inconsiderable. In the USA it was estimated that the cost for treatment and lost earnings in a man of 50 with cancer, even in 1980, was $103,000 [49]. The amount today is very much higher.

In Australia between 1960 and 1966 there were 78 deaths from cancer of the penis and 2 from circumcision. (Circumcision fatalities today are virtually unknown.) At the Peter McCallum Cancer Institute 102 cases of penile cancer were seen between 1954 and 1984, with twice as many in the latter decade compared with the first. Moreover, several authors have linked the rising incidence of penile cancer to a decrease in the number of neonatal circumcisions [24,111]. It would thus seem that "prevention by circumcision in infancy is the best policy". Indeed it would be an unusual parent who did not want to ensure their child was completely protected by this simple procedure.

Prostate cancer

Prostate cancer accounts for 27% of new cancers in males and 7% of deaths [89]. Uncircumcised men have twice the incidence of prostate cancer compared with circumcised [5,35], and this cancer is rare amongst Jews [2]. No association has been seen between rate of prostate cancer and rate of cervical cancer in different geographic localities [108]. However, in a study of 20,243 men in Finland, infection with HPV18 was associated with a 2.6-fold increase in risk of prostate cancer (P < 0.005) [28]. For HPV16 the increased risk was 2.4-fold.

Cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men

A number of studies have documented higher rates of cervical cancer in women who have had one or more male sexual partners who were uncircumcised. These studies have to be looked at critically, however, to see to what extent cultural and other influences might be contributing in groups with different circumcision practices. Premarital sex is uncommon in the various religious groups in India and surrounding countries. In a study of 5,000 cervical and 300 penile cancer cases in Madras between 1982 and 1990 the incidence was low amongst Muslim women, when compared with Hindu and Christian, and was not seen at all in Muslim men [42]. In a case-control study of 1,107 Indian women with cervical cancer, sex with uncircumcised men or those circumcised after the age of 1 year was reported in 1993 to be associated with a 4-fold higher risk of cervical cancer, after controlling for factors such as age, age of first intercourse and education [1]. Another study published in 1993 concerning various types of cancer in the Valley of Kashmir concluded that universal male circumcsion in the majority community was responsible for the low rate of cervical cancer compared with the rest of India [25]. In Israel, a 1994 report of 4 groups of women aged 17-60 found that Moshav residents with no gynaecological complaints had no HPV 16/18 and healthy Kibbutz residents had a 1.8% incidence [55]. Amongst those who had a gynaecological complaint HPV 16/18 was found in 9% of Jewish and 12% of non-Jewish women. Thus the causative agent (high-risk HPV) can be found in Jewish women. The source of this (circumcised vs. uncircumcised partners) was not explored.



The full report here

http://www.islamawareness.net/Circumcision/circumcision.html

[adbasque]

CIRCUMCISION:
An Evidence-Based Appraisal
MEDICAL, HEALTH & SEXUAL

2008 Edition


Circumcision is a very popular procedure. The purpose of this website is to provide a balanced up-to-date review of scientific studies on circumcision that have been published mainly in reputable international medical and scientific journals after a formal, critical refereeing process by experts in the field.

The information reviewed herein is the most extensive and accurate in the world. Listed are 660 references. Most can be found by the reader in any medical library or internet referencing service, such as PubMed. The message they convey is quite clear. Unfortunately, the topic of circumcision has been made unnecessarily controversial because of emotive propaganda and opinions placed on the internet by extremist anti-circumcision organizations.

It is the intention of the present overview to provide sound information that should be of assistance to parents, medical professionals as well as men and their partners who are seeking facts (rather than the fiction perpetrated by anti-circumcision groups). The author is a full professor in the medical faculty of a major very prestigious highly reputable university, has over 38 years of scientific research experience and more than 250 research publications.

Circumcision of males represents a surgical "vaccine" against a wide variety of infections, adverse medical conditions and potentially fatal diseases over their lifetime, and also protects their sexual partners.

In experienced hands, this common, inexpensive procedure is very safe, can be pain-free and can be performed at any age. The benefits vastly outweigh risks. The enormous public health benefits include protection from urinary tract infections, sexually transmitted HIV, HPV, syphilis and chancroid, penile and prostate cancer, phimosis, thrush, and inflammatory dermatoses. In women circumcision of the male partner provides substantial protection from cervical cancer and chlamydia.

Circumcision has socio-sexual benefits and reduces sexual problems with age. It has no adverse effect on penile sensitivity, function, or sensation during sexual arousal.

Most women prefer the circumcised penis for appearance, hygiene and sex. Given the convincing epidemiological evidence and biological support, routine circumcision should be highly recommended by all health professionals.

Full Story here (if interested)

http://www.circinfo.net/

[adbasque]

Circumcision - Benefits Outweigh the Risks


Dr Tom Wiswell, a respected authority in the USA was a strong opponent, but then switched camps as a result of his own research findings and the findings of others. This is what he has to say: "As a pediatrician and neonatologist, I am a child advocate and try to do what is best for children. For many years I was an outspoken opponent of circumcision ... I have gradually changed my opinion" [632, 635]. This ability to keep an open mind on the issue and to make a sound judgement on the balance of all available information is to his credit ... he did change his mind!

Wiswell looked at the complication rates of having or not having circumcision performed in a study of 136,000 boys born in US army hospitals between 1980 and 1985. 100,000 were circumcised and 193 (0.19%) had complications, mostly minor, with no deaths, but of the 36,000 who were not circumcised the problems were more than ten-times higher and there were 2 deaths [636].

A study by others found that of the 11,000 circumcisions performed at New York's Sloane Hospital in 1989, only 6 led to complications, none of which were fatal [482]. An early survey saw only one death amongst 566,483 baby boys circumcised in New York between 1939 and 1951 [390].

There are no deaths today from medical circumcisions in developed countries.

Read More (if interested)

http://www.circinfo.net/benefits_outweigh_the_risks.html

NOTE: they are not Muslims, they are western doctors

[demeter_maru]

I have read English versions of the Quoran and found them useless. I lived in the Middle East for a number of years. When I arrived I didn't speak the language and lived in an area where foreigners didn't frequent. The people welcomed me with open arms, taught me enough of the language to communicate, shared their views of their religious beliefs and answered my ignorant questions willingly. I came to admire the culture and learned the true role of women. They are the queens, they loved the way they were treated and protected by their husbands, and most would not have it any other way.

When I returned to the US I would get bombarded with these same questions and spend hours trying to explain that people are conditioned to believe the negative press about Arab countries. I know that not all are perfect and which culture, society is? The one thing I knew is that the communities with common beliefs, goals, and respect for one another were far more desirable than what I witness everyday in the States.

Thanks for this post, you have no idea how glad I am to see this. I visited the Middle East a few years back, only stayed for a few weeks, but every single person I met was decent, thoughtful and very happy to discuss their culture and religion and learn about what I thought in return. I loved it, and loved learning about Islam.

[adbasque]

The benefits of circumcision

There are more risks in boob transplant and other things, but no, those are practised mainly in the west, other cosmetic surgery, but hey! that's fashion, that's modern, even though it's not necessary, it's acceptable.

Because most celebrities have some part of their face or body redone, so it's ok, we tolerate that, it's acceptable.
Yeah those are adults it's their choice, yeah right, we are more concerned about babies and little children.

How about we are a bunch of hypocrites, just an excuse anything to tarnish Islam? that sounds more like it:rolleyes:

There's a big lobby out there anti-circumcision, hum let the children catch and develop all sorts of diseases, not only for themselves, they can even share them with their partners !!! yeah...

But now back to why we condemn circumcision, it's because it's mainly used by Muslims, anything Muslims do can't be good and if it's good we do our best to make it look evil.

All the time I lived in the Middle east and north Africa, we've had this conversation, never anyone said it was painful, or anyone had any complications of any kind, never heard of any, there are probably one in 1000 and ven that was a minor complication and that is usually if the doctor doesn't have enough experience.

Other than that never met anybody who knew anybody who had a problem with circumcision.

In the US it was very common between 1950 to early 1980s and since the propaganda started, the number droped, people were scared!!:eek:




URINARY TRACT INFECTIONS

Circumcision helps prevent urinary tract infections in both males and their female partners. Urinary tract infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later. Urinary tract infections account for a large percentage of “unexplained” fevers in uncircumcised males. It is a documented fact that uncircumcised males are 10 times more likely to come down with a urinary track infection than circumcised males.

SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES AND HIV

Studies in recent years have shown that the percentage of HIV and sexually transmitted diseases are lower in circumcised males. This is due to the fact that the foreskin causes an environment conducive to germs if germs are introduced.

CANCER

A circumcised male is virtually risk-free for penile cancer. However, for the uncircumcised male the chances of coming down with penile cancer are fewer than one in 100,000. Studies have also shown that women are at a greater risk of cervical cancer with an uncircumcised male partner. Another advantage to being circumcised as a baby is that an average of 4% of all uncircumcised males will have to undergo circumcision later in life due to inflammation of the foreskin or the foreskin adhering to the tip of the penis.

Once circumcision has taken place and the penis has healed, the risks of the procedure itself are completely gone. However, the uncircumcised male has to be concerned with the issues mentioned above, though those risks are minimal. Of course, there are many men both circumcised and uncircumcised who live their entire lives with no problems. Ultimately, the decision to circumcise a baby boy lies in the hands of his parents.


Full report

http://www.essortment.com/all/circumcisionunc_rmdj.htm

I rest my case

[eternal_spirit]

Quit with the disinfo from the pro mutilation crew

Go talk to a real doctor, he will tell you over 50% of the penile skin is removed, and over 20,000 nerves.

The study in Africa proved the opposite, sawed off dicks are more likely to get STD's. The head skin becomes dry and cracked, allowing viruses/bacteria in far more than non dry skin.

Go look it up, the African trials were a sham, scientific fraud.

To assume it's a benefit is to assume that the foreskin leads to problems, it doesn't. 85% of the worlds men are intact.

The amputation of the male prepuce removes the only movable part of the penis, causing increased friction during sexual intercourse, leading to micro-tears of tissue, and subsequent increased vulnerability to possible infection.



We are a group of educated and enlightened Jews who realize that the barbaric, primitive, torturous, and mutilating practice of circumcision has no place in modern Judaism.
Rabbi Moses Maimonides (http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/jewish.htm) himself acknowledged that circumcision is done to desensitize the penis and curb masturbation.
Jews are some of the smartest people in the world. We are 1/3rd of 1% of the population, yet we hold 33% of Nobel prizes. We are smart enough to understand that mutilating a little boys' penis is not an acceptable practice in modern times.


http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Western societies have no problem condemning female genital mutilation (FGM) in Africa. People need to rethink their notion of "sexism." It is sexism when the same act is considered abhorrent when done to girls yet acceptable when done to boys.
Women have said, “I think a circumcised penis is more attractive.” What if your father thought women without clitorises were more attractive and had yours removed at eight days old? How would you feel?
What if your fiance told you that he thought women without clitorises were more attractive and wouldn’t marry you unless you had your clitoris removed (circumcised)? Would you do it? Or, would you tell him he has no right to impose his sexual fetishes on you and promptly terminate your engagement.
A recent book, published by a woman in the United States, indicates that there are sexual disadvantages for women from MGM (Male Genital Mutilation) as well. See

Top 3 of the survey's many significant findings:
Women were almost 5 times likelier to achieve vaginal orgasm
when the man had an natural penis. And they were significantly
likelier to achieve multiple vaginal orgasms, as well.
Uncircumcised men usually lasted longer.
Conversely, premature ejaculation was significantly more common
among circumcised men. And, contrary to expectation, even if the
man could prolong circumcised intercourse, women didn't like it !
> Surveyed women preferred sex with a natural penis
by a margin of 9 to 1 — not 2 to 1, not 3 to 1 — 9 to 1.





http://www.SexAsNatureIntendedIt.com (http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/)

[adbasque]

Thanks for this post, you have no idea how glad I am to see this. I visited the Middle East a few years back, only stayed for a few weeks, but every single person I met was decent, thoughtful and very happy to discuss their culture and religion and learn about what I thought in return. I loved it, and loved learning about Islam.

They were simply demonised by the media, they are warm and kind people, and extremely welcoming too.

The thing I liked about them, at the time I used to drink, and they said if you want to drink feel free, we will not judge you, you can do whatever you want, they never talked about their religion unless I asked questions, then they were happy to explain and if they don't know the answer they'll ask a scholar an imam or anyone who has more knowledge than them.

Anyway I'd love to go back one day and spend sometime there, I simply loved the culture.

Of course there are bad guys, but which country that doesn't have bad guys?

but generally speaking they are lovely people.
One thing I noticed which we don't have here in the west, when we go out we pay for ourselves, they insist to buy you a drink, and the second round especially if they invite you, it means they invite you they won't let you pay.

no matter how long is the evening, and this is the truth.

It's different when people stay at home watch the tell lie vision, and believe every crap they read and watch on tv.

and being there and experiencing these different cultures.
They say they don't like the US and British foreign policies but they have no quarrel with the people.

I have been told that we in the west are very naive in believing in democracy that was 25 years ago.
They told me democracy is just a big scam.
and they were right! they knew their governments were corrupt but it's dangerous to speak out.

And they knew that the western governments imposed corrupt regimes and leaders on them, and they were right!!
The whole experience was a complete revelation to me at the time, even though I was already aware what our governments were as corrupt as theirs.

That's why I had to travel in the first place to see it for myself.
I am very glad I did the trip

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

READ the TRUTH HERE WHY IT IS WRONG

There are many benefits to keeping the foreskin intact
People mistakenly believe the circumcised penis is cleaner. The myth that the penis with a foreskin is difficult to clean is exactly that -- a myth. Cleaning is so simple (http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/easy.htm), it’s amazing that people fret so much about it. The big hoopla over hygiene is pure and unnecessary paranoia. See also: Smegma Beneficial Not Bad (http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/inspect.htm)

The foreskin, commonly believed to have no purpose, actually has numerous functions and all of them are eliminated when the foreskin is removed.

[eternal_spirit]

“The physician today has a duty to discourage circumcision and to refuse to perform it.” Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, April 1996. An organization called Doctors Opposing Circumcision (D.O.C.) is committed to stopping RIC.

In all studies to date, the risks of circumcision have always exceeded any alleged benefits, a fact that often is not made clear to parents." Circumcision and the Code of Ethics, George C. Denniston, M.D., M.P.H., Humane Health Care International, Vol. 12, No. 2, April 1996.

"Study provides further evidence that circumcision for non-medical reasons may be a mistake." The Chronicle of Urology & Sexual Medicine, Routine Circumcision Questioned as Prepuce May Have Special Function.


During a two year review conducted by the Fetus & Newborn Committee of the Canadian Paediatric Society to determine whether routine circumcision of newborns should be recommended, it was concluded that "Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed." This official statement can be found in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, Mar 13, 1996, 154(6), 769-780.

[mephibosheth]

IF the foreskin is so bad for the health of men, I suppose we need to admit that God made a mistake in building it in the first place. God, a perfect being, apparently does shotty work when making copies of himself with piles of dust. So much so that he needs to command those animated dust piles to fix themselves later on, to correct his error.

OR, we could just see this as another stupid way religion forces itself on people.

[swethirte]

If you look very carefully, I have chosen the title on purpose,

Is Islam hated from ignorance
I could have put it this way

Is Islam hated because of Ignorance?


The reason I did that was because I knew exactly what to expect as a reaction I was expecting this exact same attacks.
And they are not just satisfied to attack you as a person, they attack you, every Muslim on this planet, your faith, and the messenger now, no respect whatsoever.

I know for fact that most of these people, if they get a chance they'll kill you before you had a chance to explain or defend yourself.

The degree of hatred that was released here was expected.

I have heard these exact same euh.. if we call them "arguments" nobody actually challenged the spirituality of this faith.

I used to be Christian I have seen this bigorty from the west absolutely with no reason, they didn't know a single thing about Islam and they still don't as far as I can see.

The reason I started this thread, was because I have looked at the forum all I could find was slander, attacks, insults, not to mention the amount of hatred spilled.

I decided to start it just to see how long it will take before it turns into a battle ground.

:) incredible !

I am doing something right I sure hope so, I don't lie, I certainly don't hate even if I ignore some people here, I wanted to test their reaction and I was right.

I was hoping people will get together to fight the true enemy, instead of being divided for their differences whoever they maybe.

No, people are not ready to tackle any super power, I am afraid we stuck, division when people are still fighting to elect the BNP, and fight which party is the best, it explains everything and it certainly explains that we are not ready to take our freedom back.

Unfortunately and that is the sadest thing of all :(

Anyway.

It is those who are ignorant of Islam, the politically correct woolly-minded liberals, who are it's greatest appeasers. This thread would have been better titled "Is Islam hated from knowledge?"

As for showing no respect towards the "messenger", I tend to have very little respect for mass-murdering power-seeking psychopaths.

[swethirte]

I have read English versions of the Quoran and found them useless. I lived in the Middle East for a number of years. When I arrived I didn't speak the language and lived in an area where foreigners didn't frequent. The people welcomed me with open arms, taught me enough of the language to communicate, shared their views of their religious beliefs and answered my ignorant questions willingly. I came to admire the culture and learned the true role of women. They are the queens, they loved the way they were treated and protected by their husbands, and most would not have it any other way.

When I returned to the US I would get bombarded with these same questions and spend hours trying to explain that people are conditioned to believe the negative press about Arab countries. I know that not all are perfect and which culture, society is? The one thing I knew is that the communities with common beliefs, goals, and respect for one another were far more desirable than what I witness everyday in the States.

What's wrong with the English translations? Is Arabic impossible to translate or something? If so, why did Allah choose such a difficult language in which to give his final message to the world?

[swethirte]

Circumcising girls it's not only false, it is forbiden in Islam, totally forbiden

I swear to god the guy here is posting lies, it doesn't exist in Islam

I have been to many Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia, and they don't do it and don't allow it.

The only people who do have it are some African tribes, they are not Christians, they are not Muslims, they are not Jews.

This is a total LIE

There are hundreds of websites misinforming people deliberately, misleading people confusing people, I have had several emails warning about those websites ran and funded by the Zionists.


I'm sorry but the real lie here is what you've just said. Female genital mutilation is very popular among Muslims in Egypt, for example.

[raven200]

It is those who are ignorant of Islam, the politically correct woolly-minded liberals, who are it's greatest appeasers. This thread would have been better titled "Is Islam hated from knowledge?"

As for showing no respect towards the "messenger", I tend to have very little respect for mass-murdering power-seeking psychopaths.

So you must hate American policy then from the Bush era. You must hate the zionist government of Israel who kill helpless civilians on a daily basis. So do you hate all of this as well as Radical muslims?

[swethirte]

Listen to me BOY, I am a muslim, I am not a pro Muslim, I am simply a Muslim
I am not arguing I am exposing some liars that's all.

Do you want me to sit back and accept the lies that are spread every minute here?
you're right I am replying to more rational people, people with brains. not people who are posting pages and pages of lies right from the source of lies.

There are 100s of websites full of shit and lies about Islam, that's all they do all day long, learn about Islam and twist everything they gather and post it on their website for some donkeys to read and believe.

Islam is NOT a race, hello!!! :)

Islam hates all races
that's why you find every colour, every background, every class in it.

Oh yeah Islam is very racist of course.

If being anti-Islam is "racist", as many Muslims try and claim, then how come the reverse isn't true? Why are Muslims who hate outsiders, as Muhammad commands them to do, not also therefore racists?

[swethirte]

MEDICAL BENEFITS FROM CIRCUMCISION

The full report here

http://www.islamawareness.net/Circumcision/circumcision.html

There are equal numbers of reports, if not more, that say the opposite. But that's not really the point. It comes down to personal choice. No child should be subjected to it because they cannot give informed consent. You wouldn't cut a child's fingers or ears off, so why are his genitals fair game?

[swethirte]

So you must hate American policy then from the Bush era. You must hate the zionist government of Israel who kill helpless civilians on a daily basis. So do you hate all of this as well as Radical muslims?

I'm no fan of Bush, and Zionists governments certainly made mistakes too. But none are mass-murdering psychopaths. In terms of numbers killed, Muhammad is much, much worse than Hitler for example, if you count the hundreds of millions killed by those inspired by his teachings since his death. The only real difference between Islam and Nazism is that Nazism was defeated.

[raven200]

There are equal numbers of reports, if not more, that say the opposite. But that's not really the point. It comes down to personal choice. No child should be subjected to it because they cannot give informed consent. You wouldn't cut a child's fingers or ears off, so why are his genitals fair game?

You've got a number of organs in you body that you can live without but they can on occassions cause you harm then good and in those cases it's always good to remove them.

E.G. you Appendix, your tonsils etc.

A lot of people these days are choosing to have them removed before hand just in case they get infections.

Would you not say thats mutilating the body?

Even though the body functions perfectly even without them.

Same can be said for foreskin. If your so worried why don't you start a save the foreskin society. :)

[swethirte]

You've got a number of organs in you body that you can live without but they can on occassions cause you harm then good and in those cases it's always good to remove them.

E.G. you Appendix, your tonsils etc.

A lot of people these days are choosing to have them removed before hand just in case they get infections.

Would you not say thats mutilating the body?

Even though the body functions perfectly even without them.

Same can be said for foreskin. If your so worried why don't you start a save the foreskin society. :)

You're missing the point, again. Adults have a perfect right to remove any part of their body they wish. Children, however, do not have the ability to make informed consent. Circumcision reduces sexual feeling, which was its original purpose. A person should be able to look at the pros and cons, and make an informed decision. Assuming, that is, that there are any cons, since the vast majority of medical experts today say that circimsision is harmful and unnecessary.

[raven200]

You're missing the point, again. Adults have a perfect right to remove any part of their body they wish. Children, however, do not have the ability to make informed consent. Circumcision reduces sexual feeling, which was its original purpose. A person should be able to look at the pros and cons, and make an informed decision. Assuming, that is, that there are any cons, since the vast majority of medical experts today say that circimsision is harmful and unnecessary.

What a load of rubbish, it reduces no sexual feeling, rather improves it. you literally get the extra skin snipped off that retracts and moves out the way anyway when your having sex, so theres no real need for it anyway. You talk as though in circumcision the penis is chopped off, well its not it just a bit of foreskin.

Where do you get your medical info from because it incorrect.

Also people get there kids ears pierced, are they following the process of informed consent??

Infact your missing the point and the plot!

[swethirte]

What a load of rubbish, it reduces no sexual feeling, rather improves it. you literally get the extra skin snipped off that retracts and moves out the way anyway when your having sex, so theres no real need for it anyway. You talk as though in circumcision the penis is chopped off, well its not it just a bit of foreskin.

Where do you get your medical info from because it incorrect.

Infact your missing the point and the plot!

"The foreskin is specialized sexual tissue richly endowed with highly erogenous sex nerves. It provides sexual pleasure, lubrication, and a gliding mechanism during intercourse. It makes sex more gentle, enjoyable, and fulfilling for both partners." http://www.informedconsent.org/circumcision.html

Looks like you're missing out on something you'll never be able to experience.

[raven200]

"The foreskin is specialized sexual tissue richly endowed with highly erogenous sex nerves. It provides sexual pleasure, lubrication, and a gliding mechanism during intercourse. It makes sex more gentle, enjoyable, and fulfilling for both partners." http://www.informedconsent.org/circumcision.html

Looks like you're missing out on something you'll never be able to experience.

Looks like your quoting from someone who follows your train of thought, not knowing the facts and making assumptions.

Ask anyone who had foreskin and then had it removed at an older age and they will tell you the real truth.

Do some research for once, I mean real research from honest people.

[swethirte]

Looks like your quoting from someone who follows your train of thought, not knowing the facts and making assumptions.

Ask anyone who had foreskin and then had it removed at an older age and they will tell you the real truth.

Do some research for once, I mean real research from honest people.

I was quoting a doctor. Read it.

It's well established among medical experts that circumcision is pointless and harmful. You're just trying to justify a religious taboo using false science, and it doesn't work I'm afraid.

[element]

"The foreskin is specialized sexual tissue richly endowed with highly erogenous sex nerves. It provides sexual pleasure, lubrication, and a gliding mechanism during intercourse. It makes sex more gentle, enjoyable, and fulfilling for both partners." http://www.informedconsent.org/circumcision.html

Looks like you're missing out on something you'll never be able to experience.
Perhaps they knew this, and wanted to remove sexual pleasure as much as possible?

Or some people had some problems with their foreskin..

It sounds too crazy a God would admit a mistake, lol..!

[raven200]

I was quoting a doctor. Read it.

It's well established among medical experts that circumcision is pointless and harmful. You're just trying to justify a religious taboo using false science, and it doesn't work I'm afraid.

Your arguing something that will go on and on. Either you have an issue with foreskin removal or you don't.

But if you do then you should be against ear peircing of children also appendix removals of children and tonsil removals.

It's the same thing.

So are you against all the above as well??

[swethirte]

Perhaps they knew this, and wanted to remove sexual pleasure as much as possible?

Or some people had some problems with their foreskin..

It sounds too crazy a God would admit a mistake, lol..!

It's astonishing really how God, or Allah, could have incorporated such a stupid design fault.

[swethirte]

Your arguing something that will go on and on. Either you have an issue with foreskin removal or you don't.

But if you do then you should be against ear peircing of children also appendix removals of children and tonsil removals.

It's the same thing.

So are you against all the above as well??

I have an issue with any form of bodily mutilation against those who are unable to give informed consent, including ear piercings, and tattoos for that matter. If there are genuine medical reasons for doing so, that is different. Doctors would remove cancerous tissue from a child, for example. As for tonsils, though it was once very common to remove them, modern medical opinion, again, is against it. Tonsils are now believed to be a defence against more serious infection. Knowledge evolves you see, but it can't evolve if it's set in stone forever as part of a sacred book.

[raven200]

I have an issue with any form of bodily mutilation against those who are unable to give informed consent, including ear piercings, and tattoos for that matter. If there are genuine medical reasons for doing so, that is different. Doctors would remove cancerous tissue from a child, for example. As for tonsils, though it was once very common to remove them, modern medical opinion, again, is against it. Tonsils are now believed to be a defence against more serious infection. Knowledge evolves you see, but it can't evolve if it's set in stone forever as part of a sacred book.

your right knowledge does evolve, and as time goes on science will prove further the advantages of circumcision.

Theres many factors that effect man, and they are merely not physical but also mental as well.

And I believe that science will prove the mental goodness of getting circumstised.

We differnetiate ourselves from the animal world once the procedure is followed. There is strong symbolism involved.

But you won't understand yet. Time will prevail

[swethirte]

your right knowledge does evolve, and as time goes on science will prove further the advantages of circumcision.

Theres many factors that effect man, and they are merely not physical but also mental as well.

And I believe that science will prove the mental goodness of getting circumstised.

We differnetiate ourselves from the animal world once the procedure is followed. There is strong symbolism involved.

But you won't understand yet. Time will prevail

Ah yes and you know how science will evolve because your religion tells you? And can you explain why removing part of your penis leads to "mental goodness"? Are you referring to the fact that it reduces sexual stimulation?

[raven200]

Ah yes and you know how science will evolve because your religion tells you? And can you explain why removing part of your penis leads to "mental goodness"? Are you referring to the fact that it reduces sexual stimulation?

You cannot say to me it reduces stimuli as there is more then enough evidence to the contrary.

Previously it was beleived that it was ok to keep the foreskin but as science has moved forward they have realised the potential risks.

So you can keep on at it as much as you like, what I am saying is new science and what you are saying are the older ways people used to live there lives.

It's my foreskin against yours, oops sorry we both don't have any!!

[islamvslizards]

it is possible that the foreskin offers protection to the delicate tip while in the foetus, but isnt used once the baby is born, kind of like an umbilical chord sort of thingamajig.

however if you are going to start cutting and pasting doctors views, at least show both sides of the argument, not just the ones that support your view.

independently peer reviewed journals in FAVOUR of circumcision:

link 1 (http://www.medicirc.org/summary.html)

Overall Statement: Medical Proof of Circumcision Benefits by Edgar J. Schoen, MD, FAAP

Compelling medical data, much of it accumulated in the past 2 decades, have conclusively shown that a boy circumcised as a newborn has multiple lifetime health advantages compared to one with an “intact” foreskin. These include protection against serious kidney infections in infancy, sexually transmitted infections (STIs) including human immunodeficiency (HIV) infections, Chlamydia infection, human papilloma virus (HPV), syphilis, chancroid and herpes simplex in young men, and invasive cancer of the penis in middle and old age. In addition, all through life uncircumcised males are more susceptible to penile infections (balanoposthitis) and a variety of skin disorders of the penis such as eczema and psoriasis, as well as more difficulty maintaining good hygiene. About 1% of boys are born with only a pinpoint opening at the tip of the foreskin (phimosis) preventing retraction, leading to painful erections, and requiring future circumcision, at a time when the procedure is more difficult, risky and costly. Further, women sexual partners of uncircumcised men with HPV infection are at significantly greater risk of developing cervical cancer.


link 2 (http://www.circinfo.net/benefits_outweigh_the_risks.html)

Dr Tom Wiswell, a respected authority in the USA was a strong opponent, but then switched camps as a result of his own research findings and the findings of others. This is what he has to say: "As a pediatrician and neonatologist, I am a child advocate and try to do what is best for children. For many years I was an outspoken opponent of circumcision ... I have gradually changed my opinion" [632, 635]. This ability to keep an open mind on the issue and to make a sound judgement on the balance of all available information is to his credit ... he did change his mind!

...

Problems involving the penis are encountered relatively frequently in pediatric practice [324]. A retrospective study of boys aged 4 months to 12 years found uncircumcised boys exhibited significantly greater frequency of penile problems (14% vs 6%; P < 0.001) and medical visits for penile problems (10% vs 5%; P < 0.05) compared with those who were circumcised.

Many studies have shown that circumcision helps men prevent infection with HIV virus. Apparently the same medical procedures also reduces a man’s chance of getting two other diseases, namely genital herpes and human papillomavirus virus (the virus that can cause cervical cancer and genital warts), a new study reported online in the New England Journal of Medicine.

The results come from a study in Uganda involving 3,400 men negative for HSV-2, the genital herpes virus. The study was conducted by Johns Hopkins researcher Aaron A.R. Tobian, MD, PhD, and colleagues and lasted for two years.

The participants were randomly assigned to undergo circumcision or not. At the end of the follow-up period, circumcised heterosexual men are 35% less likely to contract human papillomavirus (HPV) and 25% less likely to catch herpes than their uncircumcised counterparts.

“These findings ... indicate that circumcision should now be accepted as an efficacious intervention for reducing heterosexually acquired infections with HSV-2, HPV, and HIV in adolescent boys and men. However, it must be emphasized that protection was only partial, and it is critical to promote the practice of safe sex,” the researchers concluded.

The study did not show whether the procedure has any effect on homosexual transmission of HIV or other sexually transmitted diseases.
According to an editorial accompanying the study, about 536 million people, or 16 percent of the worldwide population aged 15 to 49, are infected with genital herpes, which can also increase a person’s chance of acquiring HIV. In the US, more than 25 million people, or 17 percent of the adult population, are infected with the herpes virus.


article in "The New England journal of Medicine" dated 26th march 2009

Link 3 (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/360/13/1298)

Male Circumcision for the Prevention of HSV-2 and HPV Infections and Syphilis

Aaron A.R. Tobian, M.D., Ph.D., David Serwadda, M.Med., M.P.H., Thomas C. Quinn, M.D., M.Sc., Godfrey Kigozi, M.B., Ch.B., M.P.H., Patti E. Gravitt, Ph.D., Oliver Laeyendecker, M.S., M.B.A., Blake Charvat, M.Sc., Victor Ssempijja, B.Stat., Melissa Riedesel, M.P.H., Amy E. Oliver, B.A., Rebecca G. Nowak, M.P.H., Lawrence H. Moulton, Ph.D., Michael Z. Chen, M.Sc., Steven J. Reynolds, M.D., M.P.H., Maria J. Wawer, M.D., M.H.Sc., and Ronald H. Gray, M.D., M.Sc.

ABSTRACT

Background Male circumcision significantly reduced the incidence of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection among men in three clinical trials. We assessed the efficacy of male circumcision for the prevention of herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2) and human papillomavirus (HPV) infections and syphilis in HIV-negative adolescent boys and men.

also cited in the british medical journal (BMJ)

link 4 (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/338/apr14_2/b1545)


Male circumcision helps to prevent HIV acquisition, says Cochrane review

Male circumcision can be considered an effective measure that partially prevents heterosexual men acquiring HIV, concludes a Cochrane Collaboration review released on 15 April.

The report also says that circumcision should be considered as part of an HIV prevention policy where it is feasible and socially and culturally acceptable (Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2009;(2):CD003362, doi:10.1002/14651858.CD003362.pub2).

Evidence from three randomised controlled trials conducted in South Africa, Uganda, and Kenya showed that the procedure reduced the risk of infection by 38% to 66% over 24 months, the report says. The protective effect was so large in each of the trials that they were stopped early for ethical reasons.

The protection is believed to come through removal of Langerhans cells in the foreskin, which are particularly susceptible to infection with HIV, and keratinisation of the glans, which provides greater barrier protection than mucosal tissue.

also cited in medscape

link 5 (https://profreg.medscape.com/px/getlogin.do?urlCache=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5tZWRzY2FwZS5jb 20vdmlld2FydGljbGUvNTkwMTg4)

also studied in the "biomed central journal"

link 6 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/6/172)

Male circumcision, religion, and infectious diseases: an ecologic analysis of 118 developing countries

Conclusion

Male circumcision was significantly associated with lower cervical cancer incidence and lower HIV prevalence in sub-Saharan Africa, independent of Muslim and Christian religion. As predicted, male circumcision was also strongly associated with lower HIV prevalence among countries with primarily heterosexual HIV transmission, but not among countries with primarily homosexual or injection drug use HIV transmission. These findings strengthen the reported biological link between MC and some sexually transmitted infectious diseases, including HIV and cervical cancer.

how you like them apples?

[raven200]

Here here ---- thanks for the hard work. Got all the info there. :)

[synergy777]

well sikhs/hindus don't get circumsied like muslims and jews. and we have no problems with our full set, we also invented the kama sutra, thus we do okay, lol. you only have to look our population, lol

why do christians get circumsised, after all its a jewish/muslim thing, not christian. i agree about the egyptain roots of judaic/islamic rituals eg circumsion. judaism and islam share the same food code, eg kosher and halal eg no pork/bacon.

you have to remember that god/nature has perfected our body, we do not need to be circumcised. male circumsion is as bad as female circumsion imho. why cut off nerve endings/chakras.

as for diseases, well personal hygiene, safe sex prevents those.

its unatural, draconian and occult to me. it cuts off energy/chakra.

[swethirte]

You cannot say to me it reduces stimuli as there is more then enough evidence to the contrary.

Previously it was beleived that it was ok to keep the foreskin but as science has moved forward they have realised the potential risks.

So you can keep on at it as much as you like, what I am saying is new science and what you are saying are the older ways people used to live there lives.

It's my foreskin against yours, oops sorry we both don't have any!!

No, modern medical opinion is against it's removal. You are simply wrong, and are allowing yourself to be so because of your beliefs.

[islamvslizards]

Here here ---- thanks for the hard work. Got all the info there. :)

bro it was nothing at all. trust me there is not even a single point in this entire thread that these members have raised, that i havent already got a water-tight answer to.

dont forget they are nothing but typical, blind, indoctrinated sheep and slaves of the main stream media, believing any and all filth fed to them, under the illusion that they are somehow "enlightened" because they know a few conspiracy theories, without realising that no one is more deeply involved in what the powers that be want, than they.

the truth is, i cant be bothered with them. i know they wont listen anyway, so save my energy for more useful things like online tetris lol.

[element]

So you're saying circumcision is a good thing, because man can have sex with any women and not get infection..?

It's all nonsense, we don't have a foreskin for nothing. The foreskin is protection.

[raven200]

well sikhs/hindus don't get circumsied like muslims and jews. and we have no problems with our full set, we also invented the kama sutra, thus we do okay, lol.

why do christians get circumsised, after all its a jewish/muslim thing, not christian. i agree about the egyptain roots of judaic/islamic rituals eg circumsion. judaism and islam share the same food code, eg kosher and halal eg no pork/bacon.

you have to remember that god/nature has perfected our body, we do not need to be circumcised. male circumsion is as bad as female circumsion imho. why cut off nerve endings/chakras.

as for diseases, well personal hygeine, safe sex prevents those.

its draconian and occult to me. it cuts off energy/chakra.

Sorry you forgot to mention Hindu's also invented drinking cow urine, and dung worship.

Along side of many other bizarre things that we could go on and on about. What part of the chakra does cow piss improve??

[swethirte]

it is possible that the foreskin offers protection to the delicate tip while in the foetus, but isnt used once the baby is born, kind of like an umbilical chord sort of thingamajig.


how you like them apples?

It's also possible that there's a small chocolate asteroid orbiting between Jupiter and Mars. I doubt it though. Can't you see that what you're saying is simply rationalisation after the fact?

[synergy777]

bro it was nothing at all. trust me there is not even a single point in this entire thread that these members have raised, that i havent already got a water-tight answer to.

dont forget they are nothing but typical, blind, indoctrinated sheep and slaves of the main stream media, believing any and all filth fed to them, under the illusion that they are somehow "enlightened" because they know a few conspiracy theories, without realising that no one is more deeply involved in what the powers that be want, than they.

the truth is, i cant be bothered with them. i know they wont listen anyway, so save my energy for more useful things like online tetris lol.

glad to you have humility and wisdom, the man who has answers to everything.

well why don't you share it bro, tells us the whole set up eg god, angels/demons, nwo, ancient history, science, how to acheive enlightenment, moksha from samsara etc. i have been waiting for the messiah, and here you are, lol

[islamvslizards]

It's also possible that there's a small chocolate asteroid orbiting between Jupiter and Mars. I doubt it though. Can't you see that what you're saying is simply rationalisation after the fact?

what a suprise. you accept "doctors" views that you find online, but when i provide universally accepted and respected peer reviewed scientific journals, all of a sudden you get all philosophical and reject them?

epic. fail.

next!

[synergy777]

Sorry you forgot to mention Hindu's also invented drinking cow urine, and dung worship.

Along side of many other bizarre things that we could go on and on about. What part of the chakra does cow piss improve??

raven, just because you have half of your dick cut off, don't get mad at me, lol

hindus also invented yoga, meditation. they have invented many good things, and many bad things, like most cultures.

what culture are you from raven.

[islamvslizards]

glad to you have humility and wisdom, the man who has answers to everything.

well why don't you share it bro, tells us the whole set up eg god, angels/demons, nwo, ancient history, science, how to acheive enlightenment, moksha from samsara etc. i have been waiting for the messiah, and here you are, lol

never claimed to have all the answers, but i do have all the answers to these bullshit attacks against islam that you find popping up over the internet.

you think anything said on this thread is anything new? some amazing new discovery that changes everything?

[swethirte]

bro it was nothing at all. trust me there is not even a single point in this entire thread that these members have raised, that i havent already got a water-tight answer to.

dont forget they are nothing but typical, blind, indoctrinated sheep and slaves of the main stream media, believing any and all filth fed to them, under the illusion that they are somehow "enlightened" because they know a few conspiracy theories, without realising that no one is more deeply involved in what the powers that be want, than they.

the truth is, i cant be bothered with them. i know they wont listen anyway, so save my energy for more useful things like online tetris lol.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Koran 9:29

What's your water tight answer to this, then?

[raven200]

glad to you have humility and wisdom, the man who has answers to everything.

well why don't you share it bro, tells us the whole set up eg god, angels/demons, nwo, ancient history, science, how to acheive enlightenment, moksha from samsara etc. i have been waiting for the messiah, and here you are, lol

Sorry no you've been waiting for hunman the monkey god or Ganesh the beloved elephant man.

Your chakra getting all mixed up here dude!!! :cool:

[islamvslizards]

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Koran 9:29

What's your water tight answer to this, then?

already been answered in my original islam thread. run a search if you want the truth.

and by you suddenly changing the subject on circumcision, can i assume that you just got e-bitchslapped?

[synergy777]

never claimed to have all the answers, but i do have all the answers to these bullshit attacks against islam that you find popping up over the internet.

you think anything said on this thread is anything new? some amazing new discovery that changes everything?

i stick up for islam, real islam. i detest the wahabbi's, and corrupted doctrines people are passing off as islam. i think muslims need to step up and show us true islam, but they don't. they shouldn't be scared fo the extremits, they should start standing up. the elite are using extreme muslims as pawns.

[raven200]

raven, just because you have half of your dick cut off, don't get mad at me, lol

hindus also invented yoga, meditation. they have invented many good things, and many bad things, like most cultures.

what culture are you from raven.

Even with half a dick mines still bigger then yours. lol read the link below people!!! :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6161691.stm

[synergy777]

Sorry no you've been waiting for hunman the monkey god or Ganesh the beloved elephant man.

Your chakra getting all mixed up here dude!!! :cool:

if your simple mind cannot decipher and understand metaphors, aspects, then the literal interpretation is what you are going to see, lol

[synergy777]

Even with half a dick mines still bigger then yours. lol read the link below people!!! :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6161691.stm

thats orientals, i 'm panjabi, and very proud of what god has given me, lol

[swethirte]

already been answered in my original islam thread. run a search if you want the truth.

and by you suddenly changing the subject on circumcision, can i assume that you just got e-bitchslapped?

Why the violent language? Circumcision is harmful and unnecessary, as most experts now agree. You'll always be able to find some that don't, usually religiously inspired.

Please provide a link to your explanation of the above and similar commands in the Koran.

[islamvslizards]

i stick up for islam, real islam. i detest the wahabbi's, and corrupted doctrines people are passing off as islam. i think muslims need to step up and show us true islam, but they don't. they shouldn't be scared fo the extremits, they should start standing up. the elite are using extreme muslims as pawns.

then we stand together. the wahabbi death cult is a directly created sect, at the hands of the british empire, who installed the "house of saud" (hence the name, saudi arabia) and established a national religion, similar to henry the eighth making the c of e, but on a whole new fucked up scale.

replace "muslim" with "wahabbi" on this thread, and you wont be far off the truth.

[swethirte]

Even with half a dick mines still bigger then yours. lol read the link below people!!! :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6161691.stm

That remark is racist.

[raven200]

already been answered in my original islam thread. run a search if you want the truth.

and by you suddenly changing the subject on circumcision, can i assume that you just got e-bitchslapped?

Hahahahahahahaha!!!

dude you gotta make a rap out of this lol :cool:

[islamvslizards]

Why the violent language? Circumcision is harmful and unnecessary, as most experts now agree. You'll always be able to find some that don't, usually religiously inspired.

Please provide a link to your explanation of the above and similar commands in the Koran.

why the ignorant, biased, untrue language throughout this thread? all of a sudden you have gained morals?

and please do tell me. which "experts" are these that agree? cos ive just shown that the latest experts - from not even 6 months ago - agree with ME, not you. so what position does that put you in?

[raven200]

That remark is racist.

Well saying I have half a dick is not!!??

What world do you live on!! It's ok for the person who agrees with you to say something, but anyone else is wrong.

Oh my gosh!!! :eek:

[swethirte]

then we stand together. the wahabbi death cult is a directly created sect, at the hands of the british empire, who installed the "house of saud" (hence the name, saudi arabia) and established a national religion, similar to henry the eighth making the c of e, but on a whole new fucked up scale.

replace "muslim" with "wahabbi" on this thread, and you wont be far off the truth.

Do other Muslims have a different Koran then, without all those commands to fight against unbelievers and kill them?

[islamvslizards]

Please provide a link to your explanation of the above and similar commands in the Koran.

why should i?

ive told you where to find the answer. go look, on enlightened searcher of the truth.

[swethirte]

Well saying I have half a dick is not!!??

What world do you live on!! It's ok for the person who agrees with you to say something, but anyone else is wrong.

Oh my gosh!!! :eek:

You stereotyped a whole race for having small penises. That's racist.

[synergy777]

then we stand together. the wahabbi death cult is a directly created sect, at the hands of the british empire, who installed the "house of saud" (hence the name, saudi arabia) and established a national religion, similar to henry the eighth making the c of e, but on a whole new fucked up scale.

replace "muslim" with "wahabbi" on this thread, and you wont be far off the truth.

i have exposed the saudi royal family/wahabbi many times, i have exposed the bin ladens as nwo/cia assets, the whole al cia-da is the muhjadeen that the usa created to fight against the russian invasion of afghanistan in the 80's. after the russians left, they turned onto the americans.

the elite control both sides. aslo osama bin laden is dead, omar sheikh killed him ages ago. benazhir bhutto announced this on tv, 2 weeks later she was dead.

the masses are being manipulated by fake videos etc. everyone knows osama and al -ciada are not capable of doing 9-11, its too complex for them. they are guerrilla fighetrs, terrorists. 9-11 was too difficult for them to do.

also the saudi royals are destroyed many of the places of mohammed.

[swethirte]

why should i?

ive told you where to find the answer. go look, on enlightened searcher of the truth.

Why should you? Don't you want to make it as easy as possible for me to find out why I'm "wrong"?

[raven200]

Do other Muslims have a different Koran then, without all those commands to fight against unbelievers and kill them?

Nope the quran is the same but Islam has 73 sects and there a whole lot of crazy ones in them.

You'd be surprised with the stuff they come out with, thus the rubbish hadith you get to read, which are entirely in contradiction with the quran.!!!

oh my gosh !!! :eek:

[islamvslizards]

Do other Muslims have a different Koran then, without all those commands to fight against unbelievers and kill them?

no. other muslims do not believe the quran is fully literal, but part literal and part allegorical so do not take it as literal, and other muslims understand the history of revelation i.e. where when and why each and every ayat was revealed, and who it is referring to.

wahabbis have tried to stop this, and are currently winning the battle since the world is full of people like you who drive confused muslims to them.

well done.

[synergy777]

Well saying I have half a dick is not!!??

What world do you live on!! It's ok for the person who agrees with you to say something, but anyone else is wrong.

Oh my gosh!!! :eek:

raven its jokes, laughter, banter.

i have good muslim friends, we laugh at eachother. they say to me do you want a beefburger etc, i say do you want a bacon butty, then we both get a double cheese burger with bacon, with pisses very religion off, lol.

[swethirte]

Nope the quran is the same but Islam has 73 sects and there a whole lot of crazy ones in them.

You'd be surprised with the stuff they come out with, thus the rubbish hadith you get to read, which are entirely in contradiction with the quran.!!!

oh my gosh !!! :eek:

What about all those commands in the Koran then? http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

[raven200]

i have exposed the saudi royal family/wahabbi many times, i have exposed the bin ladens as nwo/cia assets, the whole al cia-da is the muhjadeen that the usa created to fight against the russian invasion of afghanistan in the 80's. after the russians left, they turned onto the americans.

the elite control both sides. aslo osama bin laden is dead, omar sheikh killed him ages ago. benazhir bhutto announced this on tv, 2 weeks later she was dead.

the masses are being manipulated by fake videos etc. everyone knows osama and al -ciada are not capable of doing 9-11, its too complex for them. they are guerrilla fighetrs, terrorists. 9-11 was too difficult for them to do.

also the saudi royals are destroyed many of the places of mohammed.

I agree with you here dude!!!

Saudi family are evil!!!

I won't diss you any more and apologies for early rude comments!! :cool:

I was being silly!!!

[swethirte]

no. other muslims do not believe the quran is fully literal, but part literal and part allegorical so do not take it as literal, and other muslims understand the history of revelation i.e. where when and why each and every ayat was revealed, and who it is referring to.

wahabbis have tried to stop this, and are currently winning the battle since the world is full of people like you who drive confused muslims to them.

well done.

Ah, interesting. But you admit then that the Koran is dangerously open to what you call misinterpretation if taken literally? And how does one decide which bits are to be taken literally?

[synergy777]

raven what culture are you, i am punjabi/sikh, its vital to know peoples culture, as it explains alot of their viewpoints. your culture shapes you, whether you like it or not.

as sikhs we are told to defend all religions, hindus, buddhists, christians, jews, muslims, we don't see no difference, as there is only one god, the god of us all.

[islamvslizards]

Ah, interesting. But you admit then that the Koran is dangerously open to what you call misinterpretation if taken literally? And how does one decide which bits are to be taken literally?

no, i admit that islam requires each believer to be intelligent, analytical and study the history of the revelation themselves. the quran is not a sugar coated book for idiots.

however the wahabbis have made it thus by repressing all alternate views to theirs and dumbed down a majority of the worlds muslims into a "the quran is a literal book read it like any other book" attitude.

the quran is more than a book, its a lifes study.

[raven200]

What about all those commands in the Koran then? http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Madam your just reading some commands which are being mis interpreted. Those commands are talking about a historical fact that took place in the time of Hadhrat mohammad. Those were given to him in his situation when he was being attacked and persecuted.

Have you ever read about how the muslims were persecuted.

You would be shocked how much trauma they went through, it was in this time that god demanded that defend yourself and fight for survival.

There is so much more in the Quran that you will be amazed.To be honest the quran is a book of science. It talked about many scientific advances that were yet to come or be aknowledged 1400 years ago.

Now thats amazing!!

[raven200]

raven what culture are you, i am punjabi/sikh, its vital to know peoples culture, as it explains alot of their viewpoints. your culture shapes you, whether you like it or not.

as sikhs we are told to defend all religions, hindus, buddhists, christians, jews, muslims, we don't see no difference, as there is only one god, the god of us all.

My friend I might offend you again, but do some research on the chola of Guru nanak, and the book he used to carry with him, I think it was called poti sahib, or something similar.

My culture is similar to yours.

From my beliefs and what I have researched I have found that Guru nanak was very much so a muslim.

[swethirte]

no, i admit that islam requires each believer to be intelligent, analytical and study the history of the revelation themselves. the quran is not a sugar coated book for idiots.

however the wahabbis have made it thus by repressing all alternate views to theirs and dumbed down a majority of the worlds muslims into a "the quran is a literal book read it like any other book" attitude.

the quran is more than a book, its a lifes study.

Isn't that asking for trouble then, since clearly not every human being is intelligent?

[swethirte]

Madam your just reading some commands which are being mis interpreted. Those commands are talking about a historical fact that took place in the time of Hadhrat mohammad. Those were given to him in his situation when he was being attacked and persecuted.

Have you ever read about how the muslims were persecuted.

You would be shocked how much trauma they went through, it was in this time that god demanded that defend yourself and fight for survival.

There is so much more in the Quran that you will be amazed.To be honest the quran is a book of science. It talked about many scientific advances that were yet to come or be aknowledged 1400 years ago.

Now thats amazing!!

You mean like how Muhammad split the moon in half, then joined it back together again?

[raven200]

You mean like how Muhammad split the moon in half, then joined it back together again?

Yup he naver really split the moon in half and joined it back togather.

These are the sort of things that give people misconceptions. Also the Quran does not say he split the moon and joined it togather. It's incorrect hadith so that how you identify it is wrong because it contradicts the quran.

[synergy777]

My friend I might offend you again, but do some research on the chola of Guru nanak, and the book he used to carry with him, I think it was called poti sahib, or something similar.

My culture is similar to yours.

From my beliefs and what I have researched I have found that Guru nanak was very much so a muslim.

i have done research, thats why i try to learn about real islam. real islam before corrupt imams and empires used it for their own evil aims.

the bismallah/islam and mool mantra/sikh, have many similarities.

[swethirte]

Yup he naver really split the moon in half and joined it back togather.

These are the sort of things that give people misconceptions. Also the Quran does not say he split the moon and joined it togather. It's incorrect hadith so that how you identify it is wrong because it contradicts the quran.

"The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder." Koran 54:1

So what does this mean, then?

[raven200]

i have done research, thats why i try to learn about real islam. real islam before corrupt imams and empires used it for their own evil aims.

the bismallah/islam and mool mantra/sikh, have many similarities.

If you go into the deepest essence and teaching of guru nanak, they were Islamic.

I have the utmost regard for him and would not hear a fowl word against him, because my belief tell me that he was a true man of god.

I beleive his teaching were later adjusted accordingly by the guru's that followed.

[synergy777]

If you go into the deepest essence and teaching of guru nanak, they were Islamic.

I have the utmost regard for him and would not hear a fowl word against him, because my belief tell me that he was a true man of god.

I beleive his teaching were later adjusted accordingly by the guru's that followed.

i agree. our teachings evolved through the stages of ten gurus. in essence sikhism is a fusion of the abrahmic religions and the dharmic religions. its essentially a fusion of the core truths of islam and hinduism.

[raven200]

Talk of E.T. in the quran:

On 7th August 1996,NASA (1) scientists made an announcement that made front page headlines throughout the world.Within a Martian meteorite,they had found evidence of a microscopic lifeform that may have existed on Mars more than three billion years ago. (2) Although other studies were later published which challenged this conclusion, (3) numerous recent discoveries,for example,the discovery by the Galileo spacecraft, (4) in February 1997,of a possible red-coloured sea under the ice crust of Jupiter's moon,Europa, (5) are raising hopes that we may soon be able to get an answer to one of the oldest and most interesting questions asked by humans-"Is anyone out there,or are we alone in the universe?"

However,it may be that none of us may live to see the day when scientists will give us a definitive answer to this question.For Muslims,that should not be a problem.We already have the answer.Although many Muslims are unaware of the fact,the Quran (6) explicitly mentions the existence of extraterrestrial life.

The existence of creatures of a spiritual nature,such as angels,in the universe,is accepted as a fact by all Muslims,as well as people of other religions, such as Christians.The point that generates excitement among the public,and scientists is the question of whether material lifeforms like ourselves,which can be found by science,do actually exist outside the earth. (7) The objective of this article is to present evidence from the Quran for the existence in the universe,of MATERIAL lifeforms ("Life as we know it").

"Dabbatun"


In Sura 42,Verse 29 (42:29) of the Quran,we are told, "Among His (God's) signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,and the living creatures that He has scattered through them :and He has power to gather them together when He wills."

(8) Before proceeding further,a point or two must be noted.The word "sama",translated "heavens",is also the Arabic for "sky".One may object that the verse refers to creatures in the sky (which would be birds),not in the heavens.However,birds are mentioned seperately from creatures of the heavens in 24:41, "Seest thou not that it is God Whose praise all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate,and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread?..."

(9) In a note to 42;29,Muhammad Asad states,"In the Quran,the expression "the heavens and earth" invariably denotes the universe in its entireity."

(10) The Quran mentions that inanimate objects also worship God:"Do they not look at God's creation, (even) among (inanimate) things- how their (very) shadows turn round,from right to left,prostrating themselves to God..."(16:48) .

(11) Therefore,may not the creatures spoken of in 42:29 in the heavens,be inanimate creatures of God.No.The next verse,16:49 goes, "And to God doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and earth,whether moving (living) creatures or the angels..." .

(12) The word translated "living creatures" here is the same as that in 42:29- "Dabbatun".Comments Asad,"The word dabbah denotes any sentient,corporeal being capable of spontaneous movement and is contrasted here with the non-corporeal,spiritual beings designated as "angels" ".

(13) In other words,42:29 is referring to precisely the type of lifeforms that science is searching for,not some metaphysical entities.Yusuf Ali says,"Dabbatun:beasts,living,crawling creatures of all kind."

(14) This is the same word used in 2:164,"...in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth...are signs for a people that are wise,"

(15) and in 24:45,"And God has created every animal from water: of them are some that creep on their bellies;some that walk on two legs;and some that walk on four. God creates what he wills..."

(16) Commenting on 42:29,Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani says,"From the verse it appears that like on the earth,there are some kinds of animals- living creatures- in the heavens also."

(17) On the same verse,Yusuf Ali comments, "Life is not confined to our one little Planet.It is a very old speculation to imagine some life like human life on the planet Mars...it is reasonable to suppose that Life in some form or other is scattered through some of the millions of heavenly bodies scattered through space."

(18) From such remarks,the reader will realize that Muslim scholars are well aware of the fact that 42:29 clearly mentions the existence of aliens.

To read the full article go to:

http://www.answering-christianity.c...ns_in_quran.htm

[raven200]

I shall give you quotes from the Quran which was written almost 1500 years ago, and you can see the things that are predicted within it from the Quotes:

Chapter : 4 (Al-Nisa') Verse : 120

'And assuredly I will lead them astray and assuredly I will arouse in them vain desires, and assuredly I will incite them and they will cut the ears of cattle; and assuredly I will incite them and they will alter Allah's creation.' And whoever takes Satan for a friend instead of Allah, he certainly suffers a manifest loss.

The above verse talks of the genetic modifications the scientists are now taking part in, to alter the way many things are made and changed. The above verse is what satan is saying, and it is in the Quran as a warning that these things, such as gentic modifications are not correct and are satanic and will cause more problem then good. When the Quran was written men had not the capabilities of altering creation, therefore this verse is a sign as are other verses that the Quran is from a higher source and not from man.

Chapter : 21 (Al-Anbiya') Verse : 105

'The day when We shall roll up the heavens like the rolling up of written scrolls by a scribe.' As We began the first creation, So shall We repeat it - a promise binding upon US; We shall certainly fulfil it.

The above verse is talking of how our universe is created and is expanding, and as scientist now know that the universe will expand to a point from where it will go back to the point that it started from. This is part of the big bang theory and in the Quran it is stated almost 1500 years back that the universe will one day all retract itself back to its orginal point of expansion and will start all over again.

Chapter : 23 (Al-Mu'minun) Verse : 15

Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.

No one new exactly how the child was created in the womb when the Quran was written, and it beautifully explained in the above verse how Human life is created within the womb.
Another sign that this book is from a greater source and not from man. If you check the sequence of how a baby develops in the womb from what is written in the above verse with a doctor he will tell you that this is correct, now who would have known the sequence of development than?
Read the following link, which shows how a embryo develops in the womb and you will be shocked at the accuracy of the Quran.

http://www.paternityangel.com/Preg_...eekly_Intro.htm

Chapter : 39 (Al-Zumar) Verse : 7

He created you from a single being; then from that He made its mate; and He has sent down for you of the cattle eight pairs. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, through three stages of darkness. This is Allah, your Lord. His is the Kingdom. There is no god but He. Whither then are you being turned away?

According to the Quran we were created from a single being. Something which science has nowhere even began to work out, how the first humans came about. The Quran says it is from a single source. Maybe science will shed more light onto this in the future. We do know that Mary was capable of giving birth to Jesus without being touched by a man. Therefore it would probably have been a similar event in the creation of man.
Which makes mankinds creation very pure like Jesus's.
Jesus's birth was a sign of the creation of man.

Chapter : 42 (Al-Shura) Verse : 30

And among His signs is the creation of the Heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases.

The above verse talks of the bringing togather of different life forms. Humans meeting aliens, the word used in arabic in the verse for heaven is "sama", which in arabic is also used as sky.
Another prophecy in the Quran which time will tell for sure.

Chapter : 50 (Qaf) Verse : 16

Were We then wearied by the first creation? Nay, but they are in confusion about the new creation.

The above verse talks of a creation before us, I'm sure when the Quran was written, man was not aware of dinosaurs and that they existed before us, but the Quran clearly says thier was a creation before us. This prophecy has come true as we are all aware of the creation before us.
It also adds that we are still in confusion about our creation, of which science is still trying to work out.


[2:260] Or hast thou not heard of the like of him who passed by a town which had fallen down upon its roofs and exclaimed, 'When will Allah restore it to life after its destruction?' Then Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then He raised him and said, 'How long hast thou remained in this state?' He answered, 'I have remained a day or part of a day.' Allah said, 'It is so but thou hast also remained in this state for a hundred years. Now look at thy food and thy drink; they have not rotted. And look at thy ass. And We have done this that We may make thee a Sign unto men. And look at the bones, how We set them and then clothe them with flesh.' And when this became clear to him, he said, 'I know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills.'

The above is a very complicated verse, you really have to grasp its content to understand it.
The verse above is about mans understanding about himself and his creation, it talks of how God can bring something back after it has been destroyed, this verse also speaks of time and dimensions, we now understand through science that thier are possibilities of being more then one dimension for our universe,anyhow in relation to the man who died for a hundred years, but when he came back he said I have only been gone for a day or part of a day. This is about when we humans go to sleep we go through so much in our dreams that sometimes one has a dream that it seems like many years have passed in that dream, but when one wakes up he realises it only been a few hours. Sleep is very close to being dead, ask a doctor and he will agree and explain it to you why. Anyway our sleep is a process through which we are capable of wondering other places or even dimensions. This is a very profound verse and one has to understand it, the Quran was written almost 1500 years ago and the people of that time would not have understood time or dimensions. This is a sample of the devine revelations in the Quran given 1500 years ago about things that science is just now starting to understand.

[swethirte]

I shall give you quotes from the Quran which was written almost 1500 years ago, and you can see the things that are predicted within it from the Quotes:

Chapter : 4 (Al-Nisa') Verse : 120

'And assuredly I will lead them astray and assuredly I will arouse in them vain desires, and assuredly I will incite them and they will cut the ears of cattle; and assuredly I will incite them and they will alter Allah's creation.' And whoever takes Satan for a friend instead of Allah, he certainly suffers a manifest loss.

The above verse talks of the genetic modifications the scientists are now taking part in, to alter the way many things are made and changed. The above verse is what satan is saying, and it is in the Quran as a warning that these things, such as gentic modifications are not correct and are satanic and will cause more problem then good. When the Quran was written men had not the capabilities of altering creation, therefore this verse is a sign as are other verses that the Quran is from a higher source and not from man.

Chapter : 21 (Al-Anbiya') Verse : 105

'The day when We shall roll up the heavens like the rolling up of written scrolls by a scribe.' As We began the first creation, So shall We repeat it - a promise binding upon US; We shall certainly fulfil it.

The above verse is talking of how our universe is created and is expanding, and as scientist now know that the universe will expand to a point from where it will go back to the point that it started from. This is part of the big bang theory and in the Quran it is stated almost 1500 years back that the universe will one day all retract itself back to its orginal point of expansion and will start all over again.

Chapter : 23 (Al-Mu'minun) Verse : 15

Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.

No one new exactly how the child was created in the womb when the Quran was written, and it beautifully explained in the above verse how Human life is created within the womb.
Another sign that this book is from a greater source and not from man. If you check the sequence of how a baby develops in the womb from what is written in the above verse with a doctor he will tell you that this is correct, now who would have known the sequence of development than?
Read the following link, which shows how a embryo develops in the womb and you will be shocked at the accuracy of the Quran.

http://www.paternityangel.com/Preg_...eekly_Intro.htm

Chapter : 39 (Al-Zumar) Verse : 7

He created you from a single being; then from that He made its mate; and He has sent down for you of the cattle eight pairs. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, through three stages of darkness. This is Allah, your Lord. His is the Kingdom. There is no god but He. Whither then are you being turned away?

According to the Quran we were created from a single being. Something which science has nowhere even began to work out, how the first humans came about. The Quran says it is from a single source. Maybe science will shed more light onto this in the future. We do know that Mary was capable of giving birth to Jesus without being touched by a man. Therefore it would probably have been a similar event in the creation of man.
Which makes mankinds creation very pure like Jesus's.
Jesus's birth was a sign of the creation of man.

Chapter : 42 (Al-Shura) Verse : 30

And among His signs is the creation of the Heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases.

The above verse talks of the bringing togather of different life forms. Humans meeting aliens, the word used in arabic in the verse for heaven is "sama", which in arabic is also used as sky.
Another prophecy in the Quran which time will tell for sure.

Chapter : 50 (Qaf) Verse : 16

Were We then wearied by the first creation? Nay, but they are in confusion about the new creation.

The above verse talks of a creation before us, I'm sure when the Quran was written, man was not aware of dinosaurs and that they existed before us, but the Quran clearly says thier was a creation before us. This prophecy has come true as we are all aware of the creation before us.
It also adds that we are still in confusion about our creation, of which science is still trying to work out.


[2:260] Or hast thou not heard of the like of him who passed by a town which had fallen down upon its roofs and exclaimed, 'When will Allah restore it to life after its destruction?' Then Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then He raised him and said, 'How long hast thou remained in this state?' He answered, 'I have remained a day or part of a day.' Allah said, 'It is so but thou hast also remained in this state for a hundred years. Now look at thy food and thy drink; they have not rotted. And look at thy ass. And We have done this that We may make thee a Sign unto men. And look at the bones, how We set them and then clothe them with flesh.' And when this became clear to him, he said, 'I know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills.'

The above is a very complicated verse, you really have to grasp its content to understand it.
The verse above is about mans understanding about himself and his creation, it talks of how God can bring something back after it has been destroyed, this verse also speaks of time and dimensions, we now understand through science that thier are possibilities of being more then one dimension for our universe,anyhow in relation to the man who died for a hundred years, but when he came back he said I have only been gone for a day or part of a day. This is about when we humans go to sleep we go through so much in our dreams that sometimes one has a dream that it seems like many years have passed in that dream, but when one wakes up he realises it only been a few hours. Sleep is very close to being dead, ask a doctor and he will agree and explain it to you why. Anyway our sleep is a process through which we are capable of wondering other places or even dimensions. This is a very profound verse and one has to understand it, the Quran was written almost 1500 years ago and the people of that time would not have understood time or dimensions. This is a sample of the devine revelations in the Quran given 1500 years ago about things that science is just now starting to understand.

I note how you had to explain what each verse was about, because it was far from obvious. Just two points, I can't be bothered with the rest of that drivel. How does cutting cattles' ears refer to genetic modification? And the skin develops before the bones in an embryo, not the other way round.