Is Islam Hated from ignorance? [Archive] - Page 9

miracles

16-08-2009, 03:21 PM

May i ask how you know it is not of God? Thats a very bold statement without much evidence, i think Islam, Jews and Christians all work in the name of God and are of God.

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, am I not to boldly proclaim it from the roof tops, would I not run into a house on fire and rescue all who I can lay my hands on if I had the chance to do it.

Jhn 6:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#comm/28) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#comm/29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Who do men say that I am?" 28 And they told him, "John the Baptist; and others say, Eli'jah; and others one of the prophets." 29 And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ." 30 And he charged them to tell no one about him. 31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men."

The answer to the above question that Christ asked, divides all religions into two. He is either the Christ, or He is not. Isalm states that he is a prophet, IE Just a man. Therfore they are not on the side of God but of man.

eternal_spirit

16-08-2009, 03:22 PM

Struth Bruce, can you lot take your little feud (gross understatement) of whose Abrahamic religion is best to a Bible thread. Or shall I start one Jesus vs Mohammed? :D

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:23 PM

I haven't been bothered to read most of the posts on this thread, so sorry if i relay some things already said, but from musilims i have spoken with, i think they are down to earth, aware something extremely wrong is going on, with no doubt, as the media sh*t stirs with them alot. They tend to be isolated from the rest of society, in a sense, so the lack of understanding makes people fear them, i heard of some cruel things musilims have done, but so have christians, i remember one time on a train in bethnal green soon after 7/7 and some musilim kids where wearing balaclavas and shouting abuse at alot of the 9to five workers saying they were going to be bombed, hurt etc. So when incidents such as this, are witnessed by people who have little knowledge of the people, its going to casue hatred, espescially when its fuelled by the press, same can be said about the police, if you ask me. It would be in the interests to divide and rule, keep people away who are meant to be supporting eachother.

Yes sharia law may be sexist, but depends how you look at it, people over in the middle east may find it offensive to see women posse half naked on page 3.

I agree with you absolutely.

eternal_spirit

16-08-2009, 03:23 PM

May i ask how you know it is not of God? Thats a very bold statement without much evidence, i think Islam, Jews and Christians all work in the name of God and are of God.

They all be of the Devil I tell thee truthfully Son.

picha

16-08-2009, 03:24 PM

If not of God, then who?

It was fabricated by mohammed so he could manipulate people into doing what he wanted them to do.
I really dont know how you could be so gullible as to not be able to see this obvious fact.

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:24 PM

Struth Bruce, can you lot take your little feud (gross understatement) of whose Abrahamic religion is best to a Bible thread. Or shall I start one Jesus vs Mohammed? :D

Stop trying to control intelligent discourse. Numerous posts without copypasting articles is an alien concept to you. ;)

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:26 PM

It was fabricated by mohammed so he could manipulate people into doing what he wanted them to do.
I really dont know how you could be so gullible as to not be able to see this obvious fact.

Muhammed was illiterate and poorly educated. The Qu'ran is beautifully written. I'm not about to get into yet another argument with you, Picha. Just have a lovely day and try not to get into trouble.

eternal_spirit

16-08-2009, 03:28 PM

Stop trying to control intelligent discourse. Numerous posts without copypasting articles is an alien concept to you. ;):D
My reasons for not indulging in long posts of textual intercourse have been explained before. There's enough mass debaters around here as it is.

miracles

16-08-2009, 03:28 PM

Food for thought...

So, to your mind, Christianity, or the NT version anyway, is the true faith? Does it help any that Islam reveres the Christ of the NT?

Any one in any religion can be saved if they put their faith in Christ alone to save them. In other words: Jesus Christ is the true faith.

manxboz

16-08-2009, 03:29 PM

I mean this is the most respecful way ....but...from talking to people I know who are Christian fundmentals, the ones who almost worship Judaism, I'd rather not believe that their God and God are one and the same.

I disagree, i think that the Koran and the Bible and Torah are all of the same, its 3 parts of the same puzzle, to add together to receive the full picture. Thats my belief.

picha

16-08-2009, 03:30 PM

Muhammed was illiterate and poorly educated. The Qu'ran is beautifully written. I'm not about to get into yet another argument with you, Picha. Just have a lovely day and try not to get into trouble.

Here some 'beautiful writing' from the quran about women zarah:

Men have more rights regarding divorce than do women
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise," (2:228)
Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.
"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice," (4:3).
A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).
It is okay to beat wives
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)," (4:34).
In Paradise, voluptuous women await men for sensual gratification
"In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched," (55:56).
"We have created (their Companions) of special creation. And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- For the Companions of the Right Hand," (56:35-38)
"Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfillment of (the heart's) desires; Gardens enclosed, and grapevines, And voluptuous women of equal age," (78:31-33).

manxboz

16-08-2009, 03:36 PM

Any one in any religion can be saved if they put their faith in Christ alone to save them.

I don't think thats true. There are many Religions in the world, you can't possible that Christianity is the one possible true Religion, especially as there are many Sects within that.

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:37 PM

:D
My reasons for not indulging in long posts of textual intercourse have been explained before. There's enough mass debaters around here as it is.

Textural intercourse??? I absolutely know without doubt that you came up with the term all on your own..:D

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:38 PM

Any one in any religion can be saved if they put their faith in Christ alone to save them. In other words: Jesus Christ is the true faith.

But in the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God. Using that reasoning, wouldn't you put your faith in God, the Father, to be saved? I'm not dissing you..I'm just trying to understand.

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:39 PM

I disagree, i think that the Koran and the Bible and Torah are all of the same, its 3 parts of the same puzzle, to add together to receive the full picture. Thats my belief.

That's what Muslims believe too, to a degree.

miracles

16-08-2009, 03:44 PM

But in the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God. Using that reasoning, wouldn't you put your faith in God, the Father, to be saved? I'm not dissing you..I'm just trying to understand.

No problem, you dont come accross as a dissing type. To a Christian Jesus was and is God, as is the Holy spirit, which is in the world now leading people to Christ.

Mat 28:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#comm/18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [/URL] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/tsk/tsk.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=19&t=KJV)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#comm/19) (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#vrsn/19)
Mat 28:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#comm/19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/tsk/tsk.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=20&t=KJV)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#comm/20)[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#dict/20"] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#vrsn/20)
Mat 28:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=28&v=1&t=KJV#comm/20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

zarah

16-08-2009, 03:58 PM

No problem, you dont come accross as a dissing type. To a Christian Jesus was and is God, as is the Holy spirit, which is in the world now leading people to Christ.

I can't believe I went to a Catholic school for 7 years, mass each Sunday and forgot about the Trinity. As long as you find solace in your belief that's all that matters. :)

miracles

16-08-2009, 04:09 PM

I don't think thats true. There are many Religions in the world, you can't possible that Christianity is the one possible true Religion, especially as there are many Sects within that.

Yes I can possibly believe that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father unless through him, becuase that is my belief. I believe the bible is the true and only word of God.

Jesus Christ (the word Christianity is born out of the root word Christ) This is the true Christian faith, but I thought you knew that already bro?

miracles

16-08-2009, 04:12 PM

I can't believe I went to a Catholic school for 7 years, mass each Sunday and forgot about the Trinity. As long as you find solace in your belief that's all that matters. :)

Nice of you to say

Im not surprised you forgot, you wont hear the true Gospel preached in a catholic school or church.

Any who this is off topic, but thanks for letting me share the good news.

zarah

16-08-2009, 04:16 PM

Nice of you to say

Im not surprised you forgot, you wont hear the true Gospel preached in a catholic school or church.

Any who this is off topic, but thanks for letting me share the good news.

Make you right on that...I think Ive deliberately forgotten most of it :p

No worries, glad you did. :)

manxboz

16-08-2009, 04:19 PM

Yes I can possibly believe that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father unless through him, becuase that is my belief. I believe the bible is the true and only word of God.

Jesus Christ (the word Christianity is born out of the root word Christ) This is the true Christian faith, but I thought you knew that already bro?

I do, but i want to see that there are many Religions out there and he only helped the Jews in Egypt first and then in Israel and no one else in the World, it's just hard to believe.

zarah

16-08-2009, 04:25 PM

I do, but i want to see that there are many Religions out there and he only helped the Jews in Egypt first and then in Israel and no one else in the World, it's just hard to believe.

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

manxboz

16-08-2009, 04:29 PM

I have a copy and have started reading it

zarah

16-08-2009, 04:32 PM

I have a copy and have started reading it

It's fascinating and addresses just what you're talking about. I've started reading mine again.

adbasque

16-08-2009, 04:57 PM

The fallen god of this world, the creator of all cults and false religions designed to lead people away from the way the truth and the life of Jesus Christ.

There are two religions in this world. Those who believe that Christ is the only way to heaven, and all others who do not. That's very simplified, but thats how I see it.

Sorry Adbasque, nothing personal.

Don't be, I know it's not personal mate ;)
And I still believe in freedom of choice anyone is free to choose his faith, without being insulted and attacked.

If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be a Christian, and If I didn't believe in Islam I wouldn't call myself a Muslim.
And I will always defend you and your faith.
Peace Bro :)

adbasque

16-08-2009, 05:08 PM

Here some 'beautiful writing' from the quran about women zarah:

Men have more rights regarding divorce than do women
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise," (2:228)
Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.
"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice," (4:3).
A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).
It is okay to beat wives
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)," (4:34).
In Paradise, voluptuous women await men for sensual gratification
"In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched," (55:56).
"We have created (their Companions) of special creation. And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), - Beloved (by nature), equal in age,- For the Companions of the Right Hand," (56:35-38)
"Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfillment of (the heart's) desires; Gardens enclosed, and grapevines, And voluptuous women of equal age," (78:31-33).

You're still bringing this rubbish of yours, even though it's been factually refuted on numerous occasions?
Men and women have equal rights, go and bring another wall of rubbish and post it Picha :)

Listen to the wahabis (zionists)
it's getting real boring now.

miracles

16-08-2009, 05:13 PM

Don't be, I know it's not personal mate ;)
And I still in freedom of choice anyone is free to choose his faith, without being insulted and attacked.

If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be a Christian, and If I didn't believe in Islam I wouldn't call myself a Muslim.
And I will always defend you and your faith.
Peace Bro :)

Peace :)

adbasque

16-08-2009, 05:31 PM

What is interesting here, the people who don't believe in God and religion, are the first one to jump on the topic, I think it's rather interesting, if something doesn't make sense to me, and I am so convinced it's rubbish, I wouldn't even bother commenting on it.

They can't keep away from an opportunity to bash religious people and religion lol very fascinating.
:D

miracles

16-08-2009, 05:33 PM

picha

16-08-2009, 05:38 PM

It's fascinating and addresses just what you're talking about. I've started reading mine again.

Is Mein Kampf next?

esowteric

16-08-2009, 05:41 PM

I had to start this thread to see how many people actually hate Islam and why? ...

Hi adbasque, this is slightly off-topic, but I edit at Wikipedia and have a few Islam-related articles on my watchlist. If someone makes an unconstructive edit, if I see it, I revert the edit; and if there are warring parties, I try to remain neutral and check out what reliable sources say ... though the press isn't as reliable a source as one might hope; scholarly works tend to be better.

Especially of late there have been many attacks on the Islam-related articles; especially by "anonymous" IP addresses and to a lesser extent registered users with an agenda. These are quite often folk who are into radical Islam ... and also those who agree with or who have swallowed the conservative (and ultra -conservative) stuff written in the press in the West, which can show just as much misunderstanding or ill-will.

You could say that there's a bit of a jihad (Holy War) going on at Wikipedia, a kind of microcosm of the real world. It's a sad story.

With good wishes,
eric.

picha

16-08-2009, 06:16 PM

You're still bringing this rubbish of yours, even though it's been factually refuted on numerous occasions?
Men and women have equal rights, go and bring another wall of rubbish and post it Picha :)

Listen to the wahabis (zionists)
it's getting real boring now.

What I posted isnt from Wahabbis or zionists ITS DIRECTLY FROM THE QURAN. So you have just called parts of your own holy book rubbish.
Well done!
Now were getting somewhere.

zarah

16-08-2009, 06:25 PM

Is Mein Kampf next?

Sorry?

adbasque

16-08-2009, 06:28 PM

What I posted isnt from Wahabbis or zionists ITS DIRECTLY FROM THE QURAN. So you have just called parts of your own holy book rubbish.
Well done!
Now were getting somewhere.

I am not even reading the rubbish you post anymore, I doubt very much you posted it from the Qu'ran.

With you? We will never move an inche lol

What you posted ressembles what is in the Qu'ran it's poorly translated and that is done deliberately.

Using specific words and in some parts they translated the meaning as they understood it.

As I always said to you, Qu'ran, is written in such a way which makes it very difficult to edit, as soon as you try and edit it, it will show a hole in it.
Which will alert any intelligent being that is the wrong translation of the verse or chapter, somehow it didn't work with you, you must be an exception.
You didn't see the hole.

We are not going anywhere you and me :)

adbasque

16-08-2009, 06:43 PM

Hi adbasque, this is slightly off-topic, but I edit at Wikipedia and have a few Islam-related articles on my watchlist. If someone makes an unconstructive edit, if I see it, I revert the edit; and if there are warring parties, I try to remain neutral and check out what reliable sources say ... though the press isn't as reliable a source as one might hope; scholarly works tend to be better.

Indeed and more importantly even amongst scholars, one has to be careful some of them are self proclaimed scholars, they try and change some facts especially what is known as hadiths, they try and make up hadiths or popularise a weak hadith.

Good approach however :)

Especially of late there have been many attacks on the Islam-related articles; especially by "anonymous" IP addresses and to a lesser extent registered users with an agenda. These are quite often folk who are into radical Islam ... and also those who agree with or who have swallowed the conservative (and ultra -conservative) stuff written in the press in the West, which can show just as much misunderstanding or ill-will.

Yes tell me about it lol, it's so obvious from every angle even, Yes people use proxies, perhaps you should ban any connection via proxy.
A lot of professional bloggers, shills web crawlers have been hired in the last 5 to 6 years to do all sorts of things on the web, propagandists and disinfo, not just about Islam, but about anything that they feel as a threat to them.

You could say that there's a bit of a jihad (Holy War) going on at Wikipedia, a kind of microcosm of the real world. It's a sad story.

With good wishes,
eric.

Yes I concur, and yes it's very sad that more and more people are dragged into this big game.

Thanks for the info Eric
Keep up the good work
Even wikipedia has been censored by some ISP, I don't know if you're aware of that, even here in Britain, some people find it very difficult to load wikipedia pages.
One of the ISPs I am aware of is Virgin Media.
All the best.

tannah

16-08-2009, 06:43 PM

flickflack

16-08-2009, 06:48 PM

As I always said to you, Qu'ran, is written in such a way which makes it very difficult to edit, as soon as you try and edit it, it will show a hole in it.

Yes, a lot of people would react if it didn't read Muhammad (peace be upon him). It get's a little monotonic reading/looking at it. The Bible, on the other hand, is very varied and the most published book in the world. And that's a fact. So there! :)

picha

16-08-2009, 06:52 PM

I am not even reading the rubbish you post anymore, I doubt very much you posted it from the Qu'ran.

With you? We will never move an inche lol

What you posted ressembles what is in the Qu'ran it's poorly translated and that is done deliberately.

Using specific words and in some parts they translated the meaning as they understood it.

As I always said to you, Qu'ran, is written in such a way which makes it very difficult to edit, as soon as you try and edit it, it will show a hole in it.
Which will alert any intelligent being that is the wrong translation of the verse or chapter, somehow it didn't work with you, you must be an exception.
You didn't see the hole.

We are not going anywhere you and me :)

I see you are now using the standard mistranslation defense which is what most muslims do when their back is against the wall. Do youself a favor and stop lying to yourself and other people and admit the quran talks about women in a derogatory way.

islamvslizards

16-08-2009, 07:07 PM

picha there is a distinct lack of tafsir to any of the ayats you misquote. why do you think that is? if reliable tafsirs are available for free online?

adbasque

16-08-2009, 07:34 PM

I see you are now using the standard mistranslation defense which is what most muslims do when their back is against the wall. Do youself a favor and stop lying to yourself and other people and admit the quran talks about women in a derogatory way.

First Picha, I am not lying to you or myself
Maybe because I have a better knowledge on the subject than you?
Maybe because I know certain things that you don't?

And my back is nowhere near the wall, and for your information, Islam has given women their rights.
These are not my own words, if you go now compare Muslim women to other women in the world, not just today but since Qu'ran was revealed.

remember one thing Picha, women in this country, only had their rights to vote since 1920, not before.
Muslim women, were scholars, were businesswomen, etc..
A man has been allowed to marry no more than 4 women and that is with some conditions which makes it almost impossible. for any man to have 4 wives.

Having said that, do you know how many Christians also practice polygamy?
Especially in the United States.

Christians always practiced polygamy, and a man cannot just divorce a woman by decalring three times you're divorced, they are given 30 days to reconsider.
Equally a woman can divorce a husband, if she can't live with him, although divorce in general is discouraged in Islam, for both men and women.
So don't make up stories that you perceive have any truth in them.

We have covered this already on this thread, and you keep posting the same things again and again, I have posted some of the sharia law how it's been practiced and explained in more details, but then you didn't comment on it, you went away, when the thread has moved on you come back with the same old crap.

Now there's one thing, we are not defending anything, and certainly not lying to you or anybody, we are not here to promote Islam, or on a mission to convert anybody, we are showing you the true face of Islam.

What you're posting here anybody can see it on BBC or any media outlet.

Now it's up to you to decide what you want to believe, which I believe you've obviously made up your mind already.

adbasque

16-08-2009, 07:57 PM

If we all treated each other equally, rather than instantly assume one's faith already justifies a discussion, then people wouldn't feel they are being attacked in some way. It becomes an escape clause for those with a faith they think labels them, so that any attack on any particular tenet of that faith is seen as an attack on them. It isn't. Of course one can believe what they wish, but please stand up and justify your belief in an adult way. Because beliefs do have an impact on the world, and some of that impact is downright nasty at times.

Very true, but most of the time, people don't let you justify your faith in an adult way.

It's usually the ones without faith or religion who attack first, by treating every religious person as dumbed down idiot who couldn't think for himself blah blah.

And then the attack on his/her religion, you say that, why don't they first learn about that specific religion before commenting?

Why the assumption that all religions are behind hatred, murders, wars and so on?
They know that religion has been framed for this exact reason, to then make people hate it, especially those who never came close, they only heard others bashing it and they even made it trendy and cool not to believe in God, some people are embarassed to admit they believe in God or religion.

Come on I have been observing people for years.

tjohn

16-08-2009, 08:47 PM

Any one in any religion can be saved if they put their faith in Christ alone to save them. In other words: Jesus Christ is the true faith.Give us a break from your Christian theology, please.

The same old things:
Believe in this religion or that religion and you will be saved and go to 'heaven', otherwise you are not saved and/or will go to Hell.

How about us just being human or do you think that God is not perfect and complete so that 'He' made mistakes? (BTW, the Greek word (telios) translated in the Bible as "perfect" means fully suitable or complete.)

Yet according to the Abrahamic faiths (faith means trust BTW) we are born in sin, i.e. we are not perfect as humans so that we deserve punishment for simply being who we are.

So how is this explained according to religion? Oh of course the Devil did it whom god also created, proving that god (lower case) is not perfect. So your 'God' and the Muslim 'God' is not God but is an imposter.

Shall I go on? Or as Muslims do, you stick to your faith (trust), that your religion has got to be right because, well, your interpretation of your book says so? While ironically if we really look at it without the influence of religion, it doesn't say any such thing.

Boo! Take your Christian theology to another thread.

zarah

16-08-2009, 09:21 PM

I see you are now using the standard mistranslation defense which is what most muslims do when their back is against the wall. Do youself a favor and stop lying to yourself and other people and admit the quran talks about women in a derogatory way.

I'm a woman who's semi intelligent, independent, a proactive human rights campaigner (I'm currently in the middle of a law degree with the view to working as a human rights lawyer) and I've also read the Qur'an, read numerous biographies of Muhammed, and have studied a little bit about Islam...would you like my opinion of the Qu'ran and its views on women?

The Qu'ran devotes a whole chapter to the female gender, a fact of which I'm sure you're aware. Muhammed stated that women should be regarded as second only to God within families, and an Islamic family revolves around its matriarch. Women, the Qu'ran states, have a right to own and inherit property, a right to conduct themselves in business and a right to divorce their husband if they so choose. A man is obligated to treat his wife properly, not to beat her (a light tap is permissible if two reprimands have failed) and to only marry up to four times with certain conditions attached. Women should dress conservatively in public (it does not state that women should always cover their head) and to cover their heads, arms, bodies and legs in prayer. Infanticide is prohibited, as murder of female babies was common. A woman is given the role of nurturer, and the man is given the role of provider.

In my experience, only those who are ignorant of the teaching of the Qur'an and instead glean their information from msm and other such unreliable sources are under the misconception that Islam is some draconian, mysogenistic dogma.

adbasque

16-08-2009, 09:39 PM

I'm a woman who's semi intelligent, independent, a proactive human rights campaigner (I'm currently in the middle of a law degree with the view to working as a human rights lawyer) and I've also read the Qur'an, read numerous biographies of Muhammed, and have studied a little bit about Islam...would you like my opinion of the Qu'ran and its views on women?

The Qu'ran devotes a whole chapter to the female gender, a fact of which I'm sure you're aware. Muhammed stated that women should be regarded as second only to God within families, and an Islamic family revolves around its matriarch. Women, the Qu'ran states, have a right to own and inherit property, a right to conduct themselves in business and a right to divorce their husband if they so choose. A man is obligated to treat his wife properly, not to beat her (a light tap is permissible if two reprimands have failed) and to only marry up to four times with certain conditions attached. Women should dress conservatively in public (it does not state that women should always cover their head) and to cover their heads, arms, bodies and legs in prayer. Infanticide is prohibited, as murder of female babies was common. A woman is given the role of nurturer, and the man is given the role of provider.

In my experience, only those who are ignorant of the teaching of the Qur'an and instead glean their information from msm and other such unreliable sources are under the misconception that Islam is some draconian, mysogenistic dogma.

If I may add, a man has to provide, has to give his wife the money she can inherit from him but he can't inherit from her, unless she decides to leave everything to him, but she can keep her money for instance if she's working, his money is their money, her money is her money.
You see how badly Islam treats women? lol

I bet Picha doesn't know that one lol

zarah

16-08-2009, 09:52 PM

If I may add, a man has to provide, has to give his wife the money she can inherit from him but he can't inherit from her, unless she decides to leave everything to him, but she can keep her money for instance if she's working, his money is their money, her money is her money.
You see how badly Islam treats women? lol

I bet Picha doesn't know that one lol

Oh gosh I forgot the most important of all...I'm blessed to be marrying a Muslim man :p

adbasque

16-08-2009, 09:57 PM

Oh gosh I forgot the most important of all...I'm blessed to be marrying a Muslim man :p

Yup lol :D
Take all his money and then divorce him hehehe just kidding lol

miracles

16-08-2009, 11:47 PM

Give us a break from your Christian theology, please.

Boo! Take your Christian theology to another thread.

DOne.

tjohn

17-08-2009, 05:10 AM

Oh gosh I forgot the most important of all...I'm blessed to be marrying a Muslim man :pI sense warmth and that you love each other very much. Hey but you are married already because 'marry' means to be joined. :)

However, doesn't it say somewhere that Muslims should not marry non-Muslims (infidels)? And likewise a Roman Catholic should not marry someone of a different faith? Odd that when the word 'Catholic' means all embracing... and of course, you embrace your man. :D

Well, that's religion laying down rules for you (us) but apparently you two have other ideas and you do well to make your own way (or, Way).

My sincere best wishes to you both. :) ;)

tjohn

17-08-2009, 05:45 AM

I'm a woman who's semi intelligent, independent, a proactive human rights campaigner (I'm currently in the middle of a law degree with the view to working as a human rights lawyer) and I've also read the Qur'an, read numerous biographies of Muhammed, and have studied a little bit about Islam...would you like my opinion of the Qu'ran and its views on women?From observing your writing I gather that you are a very intelligent woman! However, as you will admit that doesn't have to mean that you are always right.

The Qu'ran devotes a whole chapter to the female gender, a fact of which I'm sure you're aware. Muhammed stated that women should be regarded as second only to God within families, and an Islamic family revolves around its matriarch. Women, the Qu'ran states, have a right to own and inherit property, a right to conduct themselves in business and a right to divorce their husband if they so choose. A man is obligated to treat his wife properly, not to beat her (a light tap is permissible if two reprimands have failed) and to only marry up to four times with certain conditions attached. Women should dress conservatively in public (it does not state that women should always cover their head) and to cover their heads, arms, bodies and legs in prayer. Infanticide is prohibited, as murder of female babies was common. A woman is given the role of nurturer, and the man is given the role of provider.

In my experience, only those who are ignorant of the teaching of the Qur'an and instead glean their information from msm and other such unreliable sources are under the misconception that Islam is some draconian, mysogenistic dogma. Well, as with all religions we have the 'pick and choose' but if any of the 'Holy' books were really by a God who we are told is perfect, there wouldn't be the contradictions, don't you agree?

What I have seen so far of the Qur'an is like the Bible but even worse. Both books divide humanity into 'us and them' while at the same time claim that a perfect God of each book (or both) is the maker of us all.

I cannot help but notice contradictions and deceptions in the 'Holy' books and, I cannot help but think that we would be much better off without them.

zarah

17-08-2009, 06:45 AM

:)I sense warmth and that you love each other very much. Hey but you are married already because 'marry' means to be joined. :)

However, doesn't it say somewhere that Muslims should not marry non-Muslims (infidels)? And likewise a Roman Catholic should not marry someone of a different faith? Odd that when the word 'Catholic' means all embracing... and of course, you embrace your man. :D

Well, that's religion laying down rules for you (us) but apparently you two have other ideas and you do well to make your own way (or, Way).

My sincere best wishes to you both. :) ;)

Good mornin :)

My understanding is that a Muslim man can marry someone 'of the book', which means both Christian and Jew. I'm more attached to the teachings of Islam than I am of any other, so I'm on the right path I guess. I'm just extremely aware of the dangers of maipulation with all doctrines, which is the fault of awful people rather than the religion itself, if that makes sense.

Thanks for your good wishes, hope things are lovely with you :)

Oh, forgot to say, although he's a massive pain in my arse, (the hubby to be) I adore him...and he doesn't smell of curry which is awfully surprising :p

zarah

17-08-2009, 06:55 AM

From observing your writing I gather that you are a very intelligent woman! However, as you will admit that doesn't have to mean that you are always right.

Ha ha, can I beg to differ?

Well, as with all religions we have the 'pick and choose' but if any of the 'Holy' books were really by a God who we are told is perfect, there wouldn't be the contradictions, don't you agree?

I'm not aware of any contradictions in the Qur'an.

What I have seen so far of the Qur'an is like the Bible but even worse. Both books divide humanity into 'us and them' while at the same time claim that a perfect God of each book (or both) is the maker of us all.

I cannot help but notice contradictions and deceptions in the 'Holy' books and, I cannot help but think that we would be much better off without them.

The Qur'an is slightly different to others in the way that it firstly instructs Muslims to respect people 'of the book', but also that it is very simple to convert to Islam. Islam and Christianity are extremely similar, Islam is basically an updated version, if you like. It's awful that you think it's so divisive because it teaches fraternity. It instructs Muslims to be good neighbours, to respect the law of the land Muslims live in and to give part of their income to charity.

I think you're right that we would be better of without organised religion, but by that I mean institutions like the Catholic Church, which is one of the richest companies in the world, and certain elements within Islam who use it as a tool of control and manipulation - the wahabbis are an excellent example of this..it's like they've taken the Islamic construct and twisted it inside out.

Like I said before, we're all on individual journeys, my sister's on the same path as you, and she's extremely content with her choices. As long as we treat people with respect and the way in which we want to be treated, in reality which religious book, if any, we prefer doesn't matter.

picha

17-08-2009, 01:27 PM

I sense warmth and that you love each other very much. Hey but you are married already because 'marry' means to be joined. :)

However, doesn't it say somewhere that Muslims should not marry non-Muslims (infidels)? And likewise a Roman Catholic should not marry someone of a different faith? Odd that when the word 'Catholic' means all embracing... and of course, you embrace your man. :D

Well, that's religion laying down rules for you (us) but apparently you two have other ideas and you do well to make your own way (or, Way).

My sincere best wishes to you both. :) ;)

The rules on marrying non muslims are: muslim man non muslims women halal
: non muslim man muslim woman haram

picha

17-08-2009, 01:29 PM

"Allah’s Apostle said,'I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).

daseem

17-08-2009, 01:48 PM

"Allah’s Apostle said,'I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).

Nicely taken out of context and misinterpreted. Well done again.

Here is the full one:

Narrated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

The word that is being translated as terror here is wrong as the word Ru'b that is actually used means fear or awe.

picha

17-08-2009, 01:53 PM

tjohn

17-08-2009, 01:53 PM

:)

Good mornin :)

My understanding is that a Muslim man can marry someone 'of the book', which means both Christian and Jew. I'm more attached to the teachings of Islam than I am of any other, so I'm on the right path I guess. I'm just extremely aware of the dangers of maipulation with all doctrines, which is the fault of awful people rather than the religion itself, if that makes sense. Good afternoon (I just got up).

Even a young child can have a concept of God without knowing religious doctrines and I think that is harmless enough. You do well to beware of doctrines because it's the doctrines, not a book, which make a religion. Then of course without a book, there wouldn't be the doctrines.

If people just read the book(s) as a story or history, that would be fine but the problem is that they don't because they take notice of religious teachers and because of religious interpretations and doctrines, it leads to the false idea that people who are not of the same faith are not as 'good'.

Oh, forgot to say, although he's a massive pain in my arse, (the hubby to be) I adore him...and he doesn't smell of curry which is awfully surprising :p He must like your bum and the rest of you! :D

Watch girls and boys play and sometimes we see a boy will pull on a girl's hair but it's not that he doesn't like her, it's because he does!

Not quite sure what that has to do with the pain you have in your bum :D but sometimes we antagonise people because we love them and it's a way of getting their attention. So when you antagonise each other ask "Are you being a pain because really you love me?" and the answer will very likely will be "Yes." :) You surely know about this stuff already. ;)

zarah

17-08-2009, 01:55 PM

adbasque

17-08-2009, 01:57 PM

Nicely taken out of context and misinterpreted. Well done again.

Here is the full one:

Narrated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

The word that is being translated as terror here is wrong as the word Ru'b that is actually used means fear or awe.

Exactly in Arabic, the word Irhab and Ruh'b are slightly different and the way they are used in the sentence.

You can say someone "Rahib" it means someone who's highly respected, admired, looked at with a feeling of awe, as you nicely put it.

Irhabi means a terrorist someone who terrorises others, Ruh'b could mean either, depending on the sentence you put it in.

When you tell them that the Arabic language is rich, easy and very complex at the same time, they think we are making it up, unless you know the language itself, you won't discover it's beauty and complexity.

Which confirms that the Qu'ranic texts are divine, just the way they are, you can tell they are not man's words, it's practically impossible.

Go on Picha keep posting half distorted translations, out of context explanations of the verses.
Life of a Jew in Israel Click Here To Read (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8011810/The-Life-of-an-American-Jew-in-Racist-Marxist-Israel-by-Jack-Bernstein-1985)

The Life of an American Jew
in Racist Marxist Israel
by Jack Bernstein; 1985

...Judaism is a religion; but Zionism is a political movement started mainly
by East European (Ashkenazi) Jews who for centuries have been the main force
behind communism/socialism. The ultimate goal of the Zionists is one-world
government under the control of the Zionists and the Zionist-oriented Jewish
international bankers. .Jack Bernstein

In Germany, the average Jews were victims of the Zionist elite who worked hand
in hand with the Nazis. Many of those same Zionist Jews who, in Germany, had
worked with the Nazis, came to Israel and joined hands with the Zionist/Communist
Jews from Poland and Russia. It is the two faces of communism and Nazi-style
fascism that rule Israel. Democracy is merely an illusion.
.
Jack Bernstein

THE LATE JACK BERNSTEIN was a rarity—an American Zionist who actually "returned"
to Israel, not for a vacation or to summer on a kibbutz, but to live and die in
Israel building a Jewish nation. What makes him almost one of a kind, though, was
his ability to see through the sham and hype to the oppressive, racist, parasitic
character of Zionism as practiced in modern Israel, and his courage to denounce it
with the force and fervor of an Old Testament prophet.

Read this Picha and very very slowly and carefully, Note he is not a Muslim, he is a Jewish Ashkenazi.
See how horrible the Muslims were to the Christians and the Jews.

picha

17-08-2009, 02:16 PM

Exactly in Arabic, the word Irhab and Ruh'b are slightly different and the way they are used in the sentence.

You can say someone "Rahib" it means someone who's highly respected, admired, looked at with a feeling of awe, as you nicely put it.

Irhabi means a terrorist someone who terrorises others, Ruh'b could mean either, depending on the sentence you put it in.

When you tell them that the Arabic language is rich, easy and very complex at the same time, they think we are making it up, unless you know the language itself, you won't discover it's beauty and complexity.

Which confirms that the Qu'ranic texts are divine, just the way they are, you can tell they are not man's words, it's practically impossible.

Go on Picha keep posting half distorted translations, out of context explanations of the verses.
Life of a Jew in Israel Click Here To Read (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8011810/The-Life-of-an-American-Jew-in-Racist-Marxist-Israel-by-Jack-Bernstein-1985)

Read this Picha and very very slowly and carefully, Note he is not a Muslim, he is a Jewish Ashkenazi.
See how horrible the Muslims were to the Christians and the Jews.

I cant be arsed reading it adbasque, I usually just ignore your posts to be honest.

adbasque

17-08-2009, 02:31 PM

I cant be arsed reading it adbasque, I usually just ignore your posts to be honest.

You ignore my posts, because I pin you to the wall everytime :D and you don't like it.
Everytime you're exposed as a shill, afraid of what you might learn? lol

Poor Picha

zarah

17-08-2009, 04:19 PM

I cant be arsed reading it adbasque, I usually just ignore your posts to be honest.

Then why debate with him? It doesn't make sense. He's extremely knowledgeable.

tjohn

17-08-2009, 06:54 PM

You ignore my posts, because I pin you to the wall everytime :D and you don't like it.
Everytime you're exposed as a shill, afraid of what you might learn? lol

Poor PichaTo be fair, I would like to know how many post you have ignored.

adbasque

17-08-2009, 07:08 PM

To be fair, I would like to know how many post you have ignored.

I have ignored some posts, We all do, sometimes not intentionally, some other times when the same post has already been posted more than once and has been discussed and refuted, done and dusted, which I have noticed they post something, and three four pages down the line they post the exact same thing.

That's where I ignore them.

Not the same thing at all.

daseem

17-08-2009, 07:48 PM

Terror ,fear or awe theres not really much difference in the meanings.

Errr there is a huge difference unless English is not your first language in which case you could be forgiven especially when put into context, not to mention the deliberate omission about inspiring fear in enemies (not a bad thing is it).

Example: My neighbour terrorises me by breaking my windows, throwing rubbish in my garden and acting violently towards me.

Example: I am in fear and awe of my neighbour because he is a six foot boxer and mean looking although he has always been nice and courteous to me.

but there is no real point in discussing semantics really when it is clear that the wherever you got the info is clearly a biased source that lied through omission & deliberate misinterpretation.Wouldn't happen to be Craig Winn would it?

jesuitsdidit

17-08-2009, 07:58 PM

dont fall into the trap of ranting
coz then this thread will be moved to the rant room, which the unlogged cant view,
which is what they always do to the threads that r getting too close to the truth..

tjohn

17-08-2009, 09:03 PM

I disagree, i think that the Koran and the Bible and Torah are all of the same, its 3 parts of the same puzzle, to add together to receive the full picture. That's my belief.The puzzle is that we shouldn't need them. The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become religion, which although purporting to unite people, actually divide people and cause much trouble for the world. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity.

stfd

17-08-2009, 09:05 PM

The puzzle is that we shouldn't need them. The puzzle is that the writings in the book(s) get turned into doctrines and rules and so become religion, which although purporting to unite people, actually divide people so that religion cases much trouble for humanity. When we see this we begin to see the bigger picture and that religion is a con - a conspiracy against humanity.

-1

tjohn

17-08-2009, 10:50 PM

-1Meaning?

mayorofcydonia

18-08-2009, 12:54 AM

adbasque

18-08-2009, 01:13 AM

Islam has it's origins in the Sumerian city of Ur. The god of Ur was a Moon god. You need to look beneath the surface. Go to this website to find out more.

http://transcendpolarisation.webs.com/abrahamthesumerian.htm

Yes for those who don't know any better, Abraham is not the first Prophet, there were others before him, 135 000 Prophets to date.

Of course he is from somewhere he is not an Alien, he is from a place called Sham, North of modern Iraq.

These are God haters, religion haters making up all sorts of stories, I have seen hundreds of these stories.

That Jesus isn't real, never existed, some say he is the illegitimate son of Marc Antony and Cleopatra, he has 4 brothers, so many fake stories, to confuse people to create doubts in people's minds about religion and God.

It's good for people who don't know any better than these theories.

Anyway you're free to believe what you want.

It's fine by me

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 11:50 AM

Islam has it's origins in the Sumerian city of Ur. The god of Ur was a Moon god. You need to look beneath the surface. Go to this website to find out more.

http://transcendpolarisation.webs.com/abrahamthesumerian.htm

zacharias sitchin (upon whose books/ teachings many of you adhere to religiously) is not a reliable historian.

secondly, this is a contradiction:

The main symbol that has always been used in so many cultures, religions, nations etc, of the ancient civilisations such as ancient Egypt and Greece is the Sun. Modern civilisations, particulary in Europe and America use the Sun as their main symbol as well

psuedo scholars foam at the mouth with excitement when they say islam follows "the moon god" according to "islamic symbols" of the moon (even though these are from the byzantine empire and nothing to do with the sharia), so how can it be "linked" to the sumerian sun worship, if we apparantely "worship" the "moon god"?

if there was a direct link between sumerian religions, abraham and sun worship, then:

(1) why is there no symbolism at all in islam
(2) if there was, why dont we see sun symbolism eg halos/zodiac sign metaphors etc etc

the answer:

because there is no link. the only link is the apparant "moon god", but the moon symbolism wasnt even present until several hundred years ago!

this is further highlighted, and my point proven, at this attempt to explain away this glaring inaccuracy:

Islam, on the other hand, uses the exact opposite symbol to the Sun, which is the Moon. The Arabs were using the crescent Moon as a symbol long before Islam came about, just like how many cultures in the ancient world were using the Sun as a symbol long before Christiainity came about. Judges 8: 21-27.

honestly, this is ridiculous.

so the author admits that non muslim pagan arabs might well have worshipped the moon, but then surely there is a link between islam and the moon? if so, what is it?

oh wait, the moon symbolism of the byzantine royal family :rolleyes:

you see how flimsy this argument is?

look again

The crescent Moon is used all over the Muslim world. Islam came out of the Arab world, which is descended from Ishmael, who was Abraham's firstborn son. The lineage of Abraham split into two branches and each branch uses opposing symbols.

Star and crescent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The crescent Moon was the icon for the Sumerian god Sin, who was Enlil's son, who in turn was Anu's son, a lineage, which mirrors the lineage of the Patriarchs in the Book of Genesis.

there is no moon symbolism in islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium#Emblem)

72 also appears in the Islamic religion in the Hadith number 2562, known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi. Out of any number they could have chosen, they chose 72. This particular passage has caused alot of controversy, but it seems too coincidental that the number they chose is also used in so many other cultures and religions. The passage in the Hadith is probably astrological in nature.

what a load of crap. clutching at straws in a whirlwind,

firstly - the four "main" hadith books are bukhari, muslim, sunan abu dawud and maliks muwatta. tirmidhi is far...faaaaaaaaaar down the list of reliable texts

secondly, why dont they present the hadith for the world to see? tirmidhi is such a fringe hadith book i cant even find an online version to post the hadith in question.

mrerisian

18-08-2009, 11:54 AM

I hate to be the one to point this out but, you do know your avatar is of the moon don't you?

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 11:55 AM

I hate to be the one to point this out but, you do know your avatar is of the moon don't you?

*sigh* how many times have i explained this now?

it was a JOKE. read my profile. i was poking fun at peoples perceptions of muslims.

im going to change my avatar and profile. i wish you guys would awaken your senses of humours as well for once.

mrerisian

18-08-2009, 11:57 AM

i wish you guys would awaken your senses of humours as well for once.

Easy tiger - I'm new to this string and not comfortable with the "you guys" label. Consider it explained.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 12:30 PM

Easy tiger - I'm new to this string and not comfortable with the "you guys" label. Consider it explained.

The early Muslims never had any symbols, no images, no pictures, no idols, nothing, not even a decorated mosques, nothing.

Islam doesn't not believe in any symbolism.

It was inherited by the Ottoman Empire from the Byzantines.

They tried to link Islam to Catholicism, they tried to link Islam to the Babylonian, they fail everytime simply because it's not true.

The Arabs were pagans before Islam, for the last time, Arabs doesn't mean Muslims.
they are doing everything they can to discredit Islam:rolleyes:

mrerisian

18-08-2009, 12:43 PM

Islam doesn't not believe in any symbolism.

I think that's a typo isn't it? Guessing it should read Islam doesn't believe in any symbolism.

But, aren't words/letters a form of symbolism?

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 01:07 PM

But, aren't words/letters a form of symbolism?

everything can be interpreted as a symbol in some way or another. however the symbolism in this case is the link between pictures/ images of the moon crescent and islam, and secondly the link between images of the moon and the elusive sumerian religion as taught by zacharias sitchin.

so far we have conclusively proven that there is no link whatsoever between images of the moon and anything at all to do with islam. so thats fail one.

secondly we have proven that islam does not see abraham as the first prophet, but adam, so this whole "abrahamic religions came from sumer" is nonsense. so thats fail two.

thirdly, all that is left to prove is how unreliable and dodgy zacharias sitchin is, and that will be fail three.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 01:10 PM

good reading about "sumerian" psuedohistorians (http://skepdic.com/sitchin.html)

Sitchin was born in Russia, was raised in Palestine, and graduated from the University of London with a degree in economic history. He worked for years as a journalist and editor in Israel before settling in New York.

Sitchin, like Velikovsky, presents himself as erudite and scholarly in a number of books, including The Twelfth Planet (1976) and The Cosmic Code (1998). Both Sitchin and Velikovsky write very knowledgeably of ancient myths and both are nearly scientifically illiterate.

this fraud didnt even study ancient sumer in university! ask yourselves, how then did he manage to learn to speak and translate ancient sumerian better and separate from all historians? who taught him?

think about it carefully.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 01:11 PM

I think that's a typo isn't it? Guessing it should read Islam doesn't believe in any symbolism.

But, aren't words/letters a form of symbolism?

No, not really, words letters are a visual interpretation of our natural human language, it's form of a communication, before languages were developed people used images to express their views, writing history and events etc..

But Symbolism is a different thing.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 01:44 PM

good reading about "sumerian" psuedohistorians (http://skepdic.com/sitchin.html)

this fraud didnt even study ancient sumer in university! ask yourselves, how then did he manage to learn to speak and translate ancient sumerian better and separate from all historians? who taught him?

think about it carefully.

Sitchin

He is supported and pushed by the Elite, it's obvious what he is doing.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 02:01 PM

http://www.sitchiniswrong.com

excellent debunk of his books, by an actual scholar (for a change).

and i agree, sitchin is the epitome of "shill", the irony being that people adhere to his books as blindly as the religous blindly adhere to theirs that they so mock.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 02:08 PM

open letter to sitchin. says it all.

Dear Mr. Sitchin,

While the contents of this letter may constitute a challenge to your academic scholarship, the intent of this letter is more in the interest of research than confrontation. I recognize and appreciate your efforts toward understanding the ancient texts of Mesopotamia and the Hebrew Bible in more than a sterile, unimaginative way than characterizes most scholarship in this area.

However, I find many of your positions to be curiously lacking in precisely the area which you (or perhaps mainly your followers) have claimed expertise - the languages of the ancient near east.

At this point I can only conclude (perhaps ignorantly) that either you do not know the grammar of these languages, did not do enough research into the languages and therefore missed the points I have raised above on this website, or (hopefully not) do not want your readers to know what's going on in these ancient texts with respect to the grammar and structure of the languages. Toward clarifying why your work has overlooked some obvious linguistic issues, I would ask that you respond to the following questions:

1. Can you please provide transcripts of your academic language work, or an address to which I could write to obtain proof of your training in this area? I would like to post this information on my website, and would gladly do so.

2. Can you explain why your work on Genesis 1:26-27 overlooks so many obvious grammatical indications that Elohim in that passage refers to a single deity (as demonstrated above)?

3. Can you explain why you did not include the comparative linguistic material from the Amarna texts that shows the Akkadian language also uses the plural word for "gods" to refer to a single deity or person?(as demonstrated above)?

4. Can you explain how your interpretation of the word "nephilim" is at all viable in light of its morphological impossibility?

5. Can you explain why you were unaware that Sumerian has no relative pronouns, thereby making the alleged "SHU.MU" etymology for Hebrew "shem" a totally bogus argument (as demonstrated above)? Why did you fabricate this form in light of Sumerian grammar?

6. Can you produce a single text that says the Anunnaki come from the planet Nibiru - or that Nibiru is a planet beyond Pluto?

7. Can you explain why the alleged sun symbol on cylinder seal VA 243 is not the normal sun symbol or the symbol for the sun god Shamash?

8. Can you explain why your god=planet equivalencies do not match the listings of such matching in cuneiform astronomical texts?

9. Can you explain why many of your critical word meanings / translations of Sumerian and Mesopotamian words are not consistent with Mesopotamian cuneiform bilingual dictionaries?

10. Can you provide a coherent rationale in response to the logical problems presented by your understanding of the technology of the Annunaki:

How is it that the same gods who conquered deep space travel took several tries to genetically create humans?

How is it that these gods, with their fantastic space travel technology, gods who gave mankind the technology to build the pyramids and other fantastic structures, didn't have a better mechanism than MANUAL LABOR for mining the earth's gold?

How is it that the deep space travel capability of the Annunaki CONSISTED OF COMBUSTION ENGINES (the "fiery rockets")?

How is it that these gods who had mastered the forces of physics and biology could not make a synthetic equivalent to gold?

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will of course post any responses on this site.

Sincerely,

Michael S. Heiser

PhD candidate, Department of Hebrew and Semitic Studies
University of Wisconsin-Madison

adbasque

18-08-2009, 02:32 PM

open letter to sitchin. says it all.

How is it that the same gods who conquered deep space travel took several tries to genetically create humans?

How is it that these gods, with their fantastic space travel technology, gods who gave mankind the technology to build the pyramids and other fantastic structures, didn't have a better mechanism than MANUAL LABOR for mining the earth's gold?

How is it that the deep space travel capability of the Annunaki CONSISTED OF COMBUSTION ENGINES (the "fiery rockets")?

How is it that these gods who had mastered the forces of physics and biology could not make a synthetic equivalent to gold?

Any takers?:rolleyes: Tjohn? Mind1universe?
I'll add this to his questions, they had all this technology and yet it took years and years to build one Pyramid, at the expense of many casualties, deaths etc.. with hard labour, with a very primitive methods and tools used?

So much of Gods, Any Ideas John?

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:01 PM

So much of Gods, Any Ideas John?

i suspect this thread is soon to hear a resounding silence with tumbleweed, or else a rapid change of topic, cue furious cut and pastes via picha, eternal spirit or tjohn.

its really, really sad that these people like tjohn, who tried to convince me that allah is plural (lol) base so many beliefs on the works of zacharias sitchin - for gods sake look how many subforums on this site are dedicated to his nonsense - yet have never bothered to critically analyse whether he is actually a reliable historian or not.

the man has had no formal education on ancient sumerian. wouldnt that be a bit of a fucking warning light? jesus wept

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 03:07 PM

Yawnzzzzzzzzzzzz Still trying to justify the cult of death that is Islam. You guys suck.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:13 PM

Yawnzzzzzzzzzzzz Still trying to justify the cult of death that is Islam. You guys suck.

well, this makes a break from cut and pastes at least. have c and v completely worn out on your keyboard now?

last time i checked you were proven as a liar and a fraud in just about every post youve made in this thread, so please do go back to sleep.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by mrerisian http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1201838#post1201838)
I think that's a typo isn't it? Guessing it should read Islam doesn't believe in any symbolism.

But, aren't words/letters a form of symbolism?
Like ILVs avatar lol. http://www.sultaniamosquebrierfield.org.uk/images/templates/10/jamia_sultania_mosque.gif

http://boisterousgirl.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/logo-irmab.jpg

Symbols galore and more not difficult to find.

http://i.pbase.com/g4/12/660512/2/60645015.DSCF7414.jpg

http://www.earth-photography.com/photos/Countries/Hungary/Hungary_Budapest_GulBabaMosque.jpg

Turkish crescent on top of Turkish leader Gül Baba's tomb and mosque.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 03:22 PM

well, this makes a break from cut and pastes at least. have c and v completely worn out on your keyboard now?

last time i checked you were proven as a liar and a fraud in just about every post youve made in this thread, so please do go back to sleep.

Wong you're the one who's been proven a liar, now show me any proof that I've lied?

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:23 PM

well done. you have just conclusively proven beyond even a shadow of a doubt that the prophet instructed all muslims that the moon and star would be the symbol of islam forever, and any links to the symbol and the ottoman empire are purely made up by terrorists out to take over the UK.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:23 PM

Wong you're the one who's been proven a liar, now show me any proof that I've lied?

im sure you are able to read. i have highlighted exactly where and when you have lied.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 03:31 PM

im sure you are able to read. i have highlighted exactly where and when you have lied.
Your words are the words of a liar and are therefore redundant and you have not proven me a liar once in all our debates. I have proven you a liar many times. So you can quit with your lies (liar)

Now are you still denying those symbols (on top of Muslims Mosques etc) have nothing to do with your religion? LOL more lies from you. :D

If you believe that what you're saying is true then in your topsy turvy back to front world (lie is truth and truth is lie) Example Christians use a cross as a symbol of Christianity but it has nothing to do with Christianity according to you. (that's the comparison) Can you not see how ridiculous you sound.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:32 PM

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:33 PM

If you believe that what you're saying is true then in your topsy turvy back to front world (lie is truth and truth is lie) Example Christians use a cross as a symbol of Christianity but it has nothing to do with Christianity according to you. (that's the comparison) Can you not see how ridiculous you sound.

if its islamic then show me where the prophet did it or its written in the quran. show me hadiths or quranic ayats. nothing less.

of course, it doesnt show at all. hence, again, you are exposed as a liar.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 03:36 PM

*sigh* how many times have i explained this now?

it was a JOKE. read my profile. i was poking fun at peoples perceptions of muslims.

im going to change my avatar and profile. i wish you guys would awaken your senses of humours as well for once.

We got the joke about the words on your profile.

But what's so funny about the avatar:confused: Explain the joke?

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 03:40 PM

We got the joke about the words on your profile.

mmhmm "quick, everyone read his profile about what he believes before he changes his profile". was that you or tjohn?

But what's so funny about the avatar:confused: Explain the joke?

its what non muslims expect muslims to associate with, along with hating infidels etc. the more i explain it the worse the joke seems. guess it was too much for most peoples intellect. im changing it now dont worry

adbasque

18-08-2009, 03:44 PM

open letter to sitchin. says it all.

well done. you have just conclusively proven beyond even a shadow of a doubt that the prophet instructed all muslims that the moon and star would be the symbol of islam forever, and any links to the symbol and the ottoman empire are purely made up by terrorists out to take over the UK.

Well it didn't take long for the ctrl C and ctrl V to resume :D

lol

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 03:51 PM

adbasque was i right or was i right about eternal spirit either cutting and pasting something or changing the topic entirely? god hes transparent some times.

take this as read therefore that he is unable to handle the refutation of sitchin. The issue is does Islam use Symbols - You and Adbasque said it don't. While I have just proven that it does. Besides I have posted Pics to prove my point.

It's like the symbols of the "star and moon" that "Muslims use "same as "your avatar" which you've only just changed http://boisterousgirl.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/logo-irmab.jpg

My replys have Nothing to do with Sitchin I know all about his bad language skills and misinterpretations etc to do with aliens I've seen the sitichiniswrong site. (not interested in his take on Islam tbh)

So let's recap Islam USES SYMBOLS (REALITY)

adbasque

18-08-2009, 04:01 PM

Not even while the Prophet (PBUH) was still alive, even after that, Muslims never had any symbols or believed in symbols, even way after, until the Ottoman Empire.

The Cross, I don't want to comment on it, it will derail this thread again.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 04:04 PM

The issue is does Islam use Symbols - You and Adbasque said it don't. While I have just proven that it does. Besides I have posted Pics to prove my point.

"does islam use symbols"? surely, if "islam" used symbols, then there would be accounts of the prophet using them? or mentioned in the quran? in fact, let me extend this further, since im in a generous mood. are there any accounts of his companions and the immediate generations following his death, using moon and star, or indeed any symbolism at all?

if not (and there isnt any btw), then upon what basis are you claiming that "does islam use symbols"?

the ottoman empire.

retard.

It's like the symbols of the "star and moon" that "Muslims use "same as "your avatar" which you've only just changed

oooh you caught me out! i changed my avatar because you were so close to "the truth". well done.

My replys have Nothing to do with Sitchin

of course they dont. since we asked for replies to do with sitchin so obviously why would you comment on something on topic.

So let's recap Islam USES SYMBOLS (REALITY)

the reality is you are exposed yet again as a liar.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 04:07 PM

mmhmm "quick, everyone read his profile about what he believes before he changes his profile". was that you or tjohn?
Wasn't me I'd read it ages ago.

its what non muslims expect muslims to associate with, along with hating infidels etc. the more i explain it the worse the joke seems. guess it was too much for most peoples intellect. im changing it now dont worry
We know we know. Don't worry about it, not an issue.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 04:08 PM

Wasn't me I'd read it ages ago.

We know we know. Don't worry about it, not an issue.

no problem

adbasque

18-08-2009, 04:17 PM

http://www.intuitivewebdesigns.com/comics/graphics/superman/Superman_Standing.jpg

This must be real too, I think:rolleyes:

So does this one

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u252/TheBraxcave/spiderman3.jpg

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 04:23 PM

http://www.funfacts.com.au/images/santa-claus-father-christmas-st-nick12.jpg

irrefutable proof that father christmas is part of christianity

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 04:25 PM

"does islam use symbols"? YES! as just proven with my previous posts (PICS OF MOSQUES with SYMBOLS! LOL) Those Symbols are there to tell people this is a Muslim place of worship, therfore are symbols realting to Islam. (yet you blather about Muhammed etc which does not disprove my points)
the ottoman empire.
What about it it was an Islamic empire. Istanbul (formely known as Constantinople) Turkey is now prob 100% Muslim. Before Islam invaded and took over (Istanbul/Constantinople) was mostly Christian and one of the heads/power base of Christianity. The main Churches were converted into Mosques and remain so Today.
retard.
You're a sore loser when proven a liar :D

the reality is you are exposed yet again as a liar.
Only from some one such as you who denies reality, therefore you are wrong (again) and a liar.

Some history.

After numerous attempts dating back to the seventh century, Constantinople, the jewel of Eastern Christendom, finally fell in 1453 to the armies of Sultan Mahomet II. Lest one ascribe the atrocities of the first wave of jihad to the "Arabness" of its perpetrators, the Turks showed they were fully capable of living up to the principles of the Quran and the Sunnah. Paul Fregosi in his book Jihad describes the scene following the final assault on Constantinople:

Several thousand of the survivors had taken refuge in the cathedral: nobles, servants, ordinary citizens, their wives and children, priests and nuns. They locked the huge doors, prayed, and waited. {Caliph} Mahomet {II} had given the troops free quarter. They raped, of course, the nuns being the first victims, and slaughtered. At least four thousand were killed before Mahomet stopped the massacre at noon. He ordered a muezzin {one who issues the call to prayer} to climb into the pulpit of St. Sophia and dedicate the building to Allah. It has remained a mosque ever since. Fifty thousand of the inhabitants, more than half the population, were rounded up and taken away as slaves. For months afterward, slaves were the cheapest commodity in the markets of Turkey. Mahomet asked that the body of the dead emperor be brought to him. Some Turkish soldiers found it in a pile of corpses and recognized Constantine {XI} by the golden eagles embroidered on his boots. The sultan ordered his head to be cut off and placed between the horse's legs under the equestrian bronze statue of the emperor Justinian. The head was later embalmed and sent around the chief cities of the Ottoman empire for the delectation of the citizens. Next, Mahomet ordered the Grand Duke Notaras, who had survived, be brought before him, asked him for the names and addresses of all the leading nobles, officials, and citizens, which Notaras gave him. He had them all arrested and decapitated. He sadistically bought from their owners {i.e., Muslim commanders} high-ranking prisoners who had been enslaved, for the pleasure of having them beheaded in front of him. (Fregosi, Jihad, 256-7.)

This second, Turkish wave of jihad reached its farthest extent at the failed sieges of Vienna in 1529 and 1683, where in the latter instance the Muslim army under Kara Mustapha was thrown back by the Roman Catholics under the command of the Polish King, John Sobieski. In the decades that followed, the Ottomans were driven back down through the Balkans, though they were never ejected from the European continent entirely. Still, even while the imperial jihad faltered, Muslim land- and sea-borne razzias into Christian territory continued, and Christians were being abducted into slavery from as far away as Ireland into the 19th century.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 04:29 PM

What about it it was an Islamic empire. Istanbul (formely known as Constantinople) Turkey is now prob 100% Muslim. Before Islam invaded and took over (Istanbul/Constantinople) was mostly Christian and one of the heads/power base of Christianity. The main Churches were converted into Mosques and remain so Today.

cut and pastes are back i see.

islam did not start in constantinople.

the history of the moon and crescent symbol is well recorded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium#Emblem)

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 04:31 PM

islam did not start in constantinople.

I never said it did. Wow we agree for once.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 04:32 PM

Yes we also proved that Superman, Spiderman, Father Christmas do exist for real, not only they exist, but they do fly too with super powers.

So any image is a reality.

Oh by the way, The Ottoman Empire did not take it from the Christians, this yet another big fat lie from the experts of lies on this forum, well experts it's a big word, because experts don't get caught, so I should rephrase this.

IGNORANT LIARS (REALITY)

:D

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 04:44 PM

Oh by the way, The Ottoman Empire did not take it from the Christians, this yet another big fat lie from the experts of lies on this forum, well experts it's a big word, because experts don't get caught, so I should rephrase this.

IGNORANT LIARS (REALITY)

:D
A lie compared to what the Islamic versions of history? Like I always say there's two sides/storys to history. And Islam is all over the place pushing their storys and denying the other storys.

Here is another example
Did the Jews attack Muhammed first? (your story) Or did the Muslims attack the Jews first?(the other story)

It's obvious whose version Muslims will beliveve. That's the reality of debate.

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 04:53 PM

Here is another example
Did the Jews attack Muhammed first? (your story) Or did the Muslims attack the Jews first?(the other story)

lets see your side of events. since you are changing topics again as you cant reply to the fact you were wrong (lying) about symbols in islam.

what was the first "attack" ordered by the prophet on some jewish people.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 05:02 PM

lets see your side of events. since you are changing topics again as you cant reply to the fact you were wrong (lying) about symbols in islam.

what was the first "attack" ordered by the prophet on some jewish people.
First off - I proved you a liar again on the symbols issue.
Secondly - My point was obvious and was using the Jews vs Islam topic as an example
We've seen both sides/storys before (think it's on this thread) Picha posted the none Islamic version of events. Jews wouldn't convert to Islam seems to be the main reason Mohammed and co attacked the Jews.
And the Islamic version is Jews attacked Muslims first etc.

I know which version you believe :rolleyes:
Damn Satanic Jews:rolleyes:

islamvslizards

18-08-2009, 05:13 PM

First off - I proved you a liar again on the symbols issue.

by posting pictures of mosques from the ottoman empire? thats your proof that the prophet did it? even though the history of the crescent is well recorded as it appeared in a dream of the byzantine king?

you are being proven as a liar in every single post.

Secondly - My point was obvious and was using the Jews vs Islam topic as an example
We've seen both sides/storys before (think it's on this thread)

i would like to see yours.

Picha posted the none Islamic version of events.

picha did what he does best and post a load of shite from quite obviously a biased guy whose not even had the fundamental level of islamic education before he "refutes" anything. not to mention one who is in open cahoots with blatent zionists.

Jews wouldn't convert to Islam seems to be the main reason Mohammed and co attacked the Jews.
And the Islamic version is Jews attacked Muslims first etc.

"it would seem" is meaningless. show me facts.

I know which version you believe :rolleyes:
Damn Satanic Jews:rolleyes:

yeah you know me. nothing but hating on jews. all i ever do.

daseem

18-08-2009, 05:16 PM

Like ILVs avatar lol. http://www.sultaniamosquebrierfield.org.uk/images/templates/10/jamia_sultania_mosque.gif

http://boisterousgirl.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/logo-irmab.jpg

Symbols galore and more not difficult to find.

http://i.pbase.com/g4/12/660512/2/60645015.DSCF7414.jpg

http://www.earth-photography.com/photos/Countries/Hungary/Hungary_Budapest_GulBabaMosque.jpg

Turkish crescent on top of Turkish leader Gül Baba's tomb and mosque.

Dude, Gul Baba was a not a Turkish leader of any kind. He was a Sufi Saint that accompanied the Turkish armies that conquered Hungary. He saw to the spiritual needs/questions of the soldiers. He followed the Sufi philosophies and no doubt tried to propagate Islam just like a lot of Sufi's propagated Islam in places like India. he died in Budapest and is buried there. At least this is information I received from the woman who manages his tomb in Budapest when I went to see it.

They also have a statue of him there however we all know statues are not allowed in Islam. At the time the tomb was being managed by some central museum /cultural association of some sort but do'nt quote me on it.

daseem

18-08-2009, 05:25 PM

Islamic crescent/star came about from the Ottoman empire not the religion of Islam. Since then it has been synonymous with Islamic religion in the sense it can often be seen on Islamic mosques etc and pictures however it has no significance or validation within the religion of Islam. Muslims also follow the lunar calender, maybe there is some context or connection there with the crescent but I don't know for sure.

"The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.

It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman, had a dream in which the crescent moon stretched from one end of the earth to the other. Taking this as a good omen, he chose to keep the crescent and make it the symbol of his dynasty. There is speculation that the five points on the star represent the five pillars of Islam, but this is pure conjecture. The five points were not standard on the Ottoman flags, and as you will see on the following page, it is still not standard on flags used in the Muslim world today.

For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole."

source: http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm

adbasque

18-08-2009, 05:42 PM

Dude, Gul Baba was a not a Turkish leader of any kind. He was a Sufi Saint that accompanied the Turkish armies that conquered Hungary. He saw to the spiritual needs/questions of the soldiers. He followed the Sufi philosophies and no doubt tried to propagate Islam just like a lot of Sufi's propagated Islam in places like India. he died in Budapest and is buried there. At least this is information I received from the woman who manages his tomb in Budapest when I went to see it.

They also have a statue of him there however we all know statues are not allowed in Islam. At the time the tomb was being managed by some central museum /cultural association of some sort but do'nt quote me on it.

If only people know where sufism came from, how and why.
Sufism is always out to pervert the true teachings of Islam.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/Gulbaba.jpg/450px-Gulbaba.jpg

mrerisian

18-08-2009, 06:57 PM

if its islamic then show me where the prophet did it or its written in the quran. show me hadiths or quranic ayats. nothing less.

Don't you think it's best to judge people by their deeds and not their words?

I made a bit of a fool of myself today when I tried to argue your point about symbols to a friend, we were literally driving past a Mosque with a big moon and star thingy on it on the top. He pointed at it and explained that it's a symbol, even though it's not written down.

I think this point is a trifle confusing as well:

words letters are a visual interpretation of our natural human language, it's form of a communication, before languages were developed people used images to express their views, writing history and events etc..

But Symbolism is a different thing.

The Big McDonalds "M" is a symbol isn't it? Would Islam be ok with that one? This whole argument is falling apart, it's no good having a pop at eternal spirit if your own posts don't make logical sense.

daseem

18-08-2009, 07:08 PM

"If only people know where sufism came from, how and why.
Sufism is always out to pervert the true teachings of Islam."

Not sure if you are being sarcastic there so taking the comment on face value I would have to disagree. I am sure you heard of the saying not all 5 fingers are the same on a hand.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 07:44 PM

Don't you think it's best to judge people by their deeds and not their words?

I made a bit of a fool of myself today when I tried to argue your point about symbols to a friend, we were literally driving past a Mosque with a big moon and star thingy on it on the top. He pointed at it and explained that it's a symbol, even though it's not written down.

I think this point is a trifle confusing as well:

The Big McDonalds "M" is a symbol isn't it? Would Islam be ok with that one? This whole argument is falling apart, it's no good having a pop at eternal spirit if your own posts don't make logical sense.

Who said they weren't symbols? You obviously misunderstood everything that's been said or debated here.

Let me try again:

Islam, right? Does Not Believe in symbols, Islam has never had symbols until the Ottoman Empire, introduced it from the previous civilisations to Islam, it's not part of Islam.

We worship Allah, only Allah no stars, no Sun, No moon, No rocks, No human beings, no 1000 Gods, one God, there aren't many, there's only one God.

In Islam they don't believe in Symbols or Idols.

We posted the Images of superman, spiderman, father Christams, to show that a symbol or an image isn't always the truth.

And for you information, eternal spirit knows what he is doing.

We asked him to point to Islamic teachings, to the Qu'ran, Hadiths historical events where Muslims ever used those symbols?
We made it clear that the Muslims didn't even images, symbols or writing on their flags, they used three main colours, Black, Green or White.

So what is so difficult about this?

Eternal_Spirit when you ask him a specific answer to a specific question, he goes on cut and paste spree, posting images of Mosques with the crescent and the star is this his evidence of what we asked him?

Everybody can see that, you probably don't know how evasive he can be, this is not the first time we dealt with him.

Just go back and read the threads and other threads for that matter and you will see for yourself.

I am not bothered of what ES posts anymore, he's been exposed more than a 100 times.

Now if you hold his views as genuine then it's your choice.

It's like telling a Samurai what his culture is like.
he is a Samurai he knows it better than you or me.
So it's not ES who's going to teach me my religion.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 07:47 PM

Not sure if you are being sarcastic there so taking the comment on face value I would have to disagree. I am sure you heard of the saying not all 5 fingers are the same on a hand.

Well, I agree but, Islam is Islam, there's no Sufism, and so on, if a Sufi follows what the Prophet (PBUH) says and does then he is not a Sufi, but the general view of the Sufis, I am sorry to say but they have nothing in common with Islam.

Correct me if I am wrong.

mrerisian

18-08-2009, 07:59 PM

Who said they weren't symbols? You obviously misunderstood everything that's been said or debated here.

Very possible!

Islam, right? Does Not Believe in symbols, Islam has never had symbols until the Ottoman Empire,

Ok - so when you say it doesn't believe in them, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean it doesn't use them or do you mean it thinks they don't exist?

I'm inclined to think the latter as you yourself point out it has a long proud history of using them, ever since the Ottoman Empire. I'm confused, please clarify that one a bit because the point I'm making is you should judge people by their deeds more than their words. It's all very well to say Islam doesn't use symbols but if that's not backed up by deeds you're going to seem a little deceptive, no?

We asked him to point to Islamic teachings, to the Qu'ran, Hadiths historical events where Muslims ever used those symbols?
We made it clear that the Muslims didn't even images, symbols or writing on their flags, they used three main colours, Black, Green or White.

So what is so difficult about this?

Again, deeds not words. He is pointing to instances where Islam is using symbols. Lots of them. The more I looked into it the more I found that also. Surely you can see that? Or are you REALLY saying that you literally DO NOT BELIEVE IN SYMBOLS? This would explain the confusion here.

It's like telling a Samurai what his culture is like.
he is a Samurai he knows it better than you or me.
So it's not ES who's going to teach me my religion.

Well, I don't know about this last point. Cultural bias cuts both ways. Sometimes we're too close to our own culture to really know what it's like. Ask any American to evaluate their own culture and you might get answers that are quite far from what most of us would consider to be the truth.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 08:30 PM

Very possible!

Ok - so when you say it doesn't believe in them, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean it doesn't use them or do you mean it thinks they don't exist?

It means just that Islam doesn't support, allow, accept symbols.
What some Muslims or so called Muslims do, is irrelevant.

I'm inclined to think the latter as you yourself point out it has a long proud history of using them, ever since the Ottoman Empire. I'm confused, please clarify that one a bit because the point I'm making is you should judge people by their deeds more than their words. It's all very well to say Islam doesn't use symbols but if that's not backed up by deeds you're going to seem a little deceptive, no?
It's fair to say there are a lot of people who call themselves Muslims, but they haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about.

Let me ask you a question, who's deeds are you referring to exactly?
The people who built that Mosque and put the symbol on top or the ones who are the ones who go in to pray and are oblivious to what those symbols mean?

Now, let me ask you another question

You are aware of the NWO right?
You see those symbols all over, do you stop using a facility because it has those symbols?
Do you not buy products that have those symbols?
Or buy from companies that have those symbols?
Does that mean you believe in them?

I mean deeds, not words, as you seemed stuck in this word deeds.
Can we judge you as a pro NWO?

Again, deeds not words. He is pointing to instances where Islam is using symbols. Lots of them. The more I looked into it the more I found that also. Surely you can see that? Or are you REALLY saying that you literally DO NOT BELIEVE IN SYMBOLS? This would explain the confusion here.

Are you stuck with this word lol? "deeds"

Not just me, Islam doesn't believe in symbols, if Islam did believe in symbols I would too, don't you think?

Why you people can't make a distinction between what is presented to you with the real thing?
Why are you insisting, and why would I make up something like that? If Islam believed in symbols I'd say yes, but it does not accept or believe in those symbols.

And another thing most mosques that are built in the west today are funded by the Wahabis.
In two words what some people do and call themselves Muslims and what Islam actually teaches are two different things.

Here in Britain and in France, even in Germany there are a lot of mosques that you wouldn't even know there are mosques, unless someone tells you.
Just normal plain buildings.

Well, I don't know about this last point. Cultural bias cuts both ways. Sometimes we're too close to our own culture to really know what it's like. Ask any American to evaluate their own culture and you might get answers that are quite far from what most of us would consider to be the truth.

This is not a culture, it's a religion, you can be muslim and hold on to the culture of your country.

Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs have different religion but their culture are very close and sometime identical in some cases.

So a religion and culture are two different things altogether.

mrerisian

18-08-2009, 10:30 PM

What some Muslims or so called Muslims do, is irrelevant.(...) there are a lot of people who call themselves Muslims, but they haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about.

I guess Islam is very much like America in that case then - preaches one thing and does another?

You see those symbols all over, do you stop using a facility because it has those symbols?
Do you not buy products that have those symbols?
Or buy from companies that have those symbols?
Does that mean you believe in them?

I try and avoid companies who have unethical policies. That's not an unusual thing to do I don't think. If it's new to you perhaps you should look into a book called No Logo by Naomi Klein.

Logos are often a good way of spotting unethical companies. Why do you think Starbucks re-brands and uses names people don't recognise?

Not just me, Islam doesn't believe in symbols, if Islam did believe in symbols I would too, don't you think?

I don't know you so have no way of knowing that. If you say 'there are a lot of people who call themselves Muslims, but they haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about' you must be aware that all criticism cuts both ways? Who is to say you're not one of those who 'haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about'? Like I said dude, I'm just calling it as I see it. There's LOADS of symbolism on Mosques. Lots of Muslims don't seem to mind.

Why you people can't make a distinction between what is presented to you with the real thing?
Why are you insisting, and why would I make up something like that? If Islam believed in symbols I'd say yes, but it does not accept or believe in those symbols.

I resent this term 'you people'. It's sets up a barrier between us. Here's something from my holy book "true communication is only possible between equals". Dig that man, it's we people mate, we're all the same.

The reality which is presented to me by my own eyes doesn't match up with what you're saying. That's why I'm confused by your posts. Don't make it out to be any different.

This is not a culture, it's a religion, you can be muslim and hold on to the culture of your country.

Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs have different religion but their culture are very close and sometime identical in some cases.

So a religion and culture are two different things altogether.

Religion is a part of our world's cultural dialogue. Your point (which this was in response to) was about people within a culture being the only ones who can make accurate judgments about it and I'm afraid it was a nonsense.

adbasque

18-08-2009, 11:42 PM

I guess Islam is very much like America in that case then - preaches one thing and does another?

Are you doing it deliberately to try and wind me up or something? :D
Is it really that hard to understand?
Can you explain to me what do you mean by preaches one thing and does another? do you see any sense in this?
Did you see Islam do something else other than what it preaches?

People do, Islam is a religion and a way of life.
You can call yourself a muslim, go on rape spree, killing spree, etc..
Does that mean Islam taught you to do that?

I try and avoid companies who have unethical policies. That's not an unusual thing to do I don't think. If it's new to you perhaps you should look into a book called No Logo by Naomi Klein.

It's not new, I have a list of logos, actually a whole book, about logos and companies, and who's really behind them.
Well 99% of companies serve the same master.
So, I am sure you know the rest.

Logos are often a good way of spotting unethical companies. Why do you think Starbucks re-brands and uses names people don't recognise?

Not always.
Companies change names even, not just logos.
Sometime they even go banckrupt and start another business under another name, you can't always tell from the logo.
Yes some logos I believe are obvious but not all.

I don't know you so have no way of knowing that. If you say 'there are a lot of people who call themselves Muslims, but they haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about' you must be aware that all criticism cuts both ways? Who is to say you're not one of those who 'haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about'? Like I said dude, I'm just calling it as I see it. There's LOADS of symbolism on Mosques. Lots of Muslims don't seem to mind.

I see you think with one track minded, basically you believe what you see, and regardless if it's true or not.

The reason I know, is because I searched and find out that Islam has no connection with any symbols, none whatsoever.

That's how I know, a lot people get on with their lives, they practice their religion and that's about it.

How I know? Because I mix with them and I see how they behave, some do know, some do know and do something about it and they are trying to get rid of any symbols, others think it doesn't mean anything, you have all sorts of people.

If it's not in the heart or you don't hold any special affection to those symbols, it doesn't mean much, you can still go in and worship without paying attention to them.

All I am saying is, it is not part of Islam, you don't have to take my word for it, go and research it.

I resent this term 'you people'. It's sets up a barrier between us. Here's something from my holy book "true communication is only possible between equals". Dig that man, it's we people mate, we're all the same.

How many million times have I said that? But yes there are people here who are making sure there is a "us" and "them".
If you didn't want me to say that then, why don't you believe me, when I say to you, this is not part of Islam?

Yes there are a lot of people out there who call themselves Muslims, but if you look at what they do, you will know straight away that they are not.

Of course you need to know Islam first, when you know what Islam really is, you notice straight away that some are fake, or ignorants.

I don't want any division between us humans, regardless of our little differences, we should come together.

But people like your mate, ES don't want that, go and ask him why?

The reality which is presented to me by my own eyes doesn't match up with what you're saying. That's why I'm confused by your posts. Don't make it out to be any different.

Do you believe everything you see then?

Religion is a part of our world's cultural dialogue. Your point (which this was in response to) was about people within a culture being the only ones who can make accurate judgments about it and I'm afraid it was a nonsense.

Yes you can't make a judgement about something you don't know or don't understand, it's a fact.
You don't understand why someone does something in a certain way, unless you search it and understand it, then you can make a judgement.
I have said to you, same people in the same country have the same culture even if their religion is different.
Even if they don't share certain things, but generally speaking they do the same things.

Anyway back to the subject, How many mosques do you know without the crescent and the star?

Islam doesn't recognise symbols, never used symbols, what other people do in it's name is another story, and not all Muslims are aware.
Some Muslims think it has something to do with Muslim Calendar, but we know it's not the case.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2009, 11:58 PM

I don't want any division between us humans, regardless of our little differences, we should come together.Not what your religion is about is it though be honest for once. Islam and it's intolerance is one of the main problems which causes divides and I have proven this.

But people like your mate, ES don't want that, go and ask him why?I don't want my country overrun with Islamic nut jobs, got a problem with that? Obvioulsy you would like Britain to become yet another Muslim dominated country. If you truely believed what you say then you'd ditch Islam and join the human race.

Halal and kosher meats should be banned here (there is not one reason other than religious reasons as to why you practice it here in Britain)

adbasque

19-08-2009, 12:00 AM

Star and Crescent Symbol

The star and crescent is the best-known symbol used to represent Islam. It features prominently on the flags of many countries in the Islamic world, notably Turkey and Pakistan.

Surprisingly, the symbol is not Muslim in origin. Rather, it was a polytheistic icon adopted during the spread of Islam, and its use today is sometimes controversial in the Muslim world. The crescent and star are often said to be Islamic symbols, but historians say that they were the insignia of the Ottoman Empire, not of Islam as a whole.

It is important to keep in mind that Islam has few traditional symbols, and the crescent moon and star are not ones that are recognized by as traditional symbols by Muslims. The symbol is due to cultral diffusion and the spread of Islam to the Ottoman turks who ruled a large area and also put the crescent moon and star symbol on their flag. It has since become associated with Islam.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/images/symbols/crescent-200.gif

Islamic Color Symbolism

n early accounts of Muslim warfare, there are references to flags or battle standards of various colors: black, white, red, and greenish-black. Later Islamic dynasties adopted flags of different colors:

* The Ummayads fought under white banners
* The Abbasids chose black
* The Fatimids used green
* Various countries on the Persian Gulf have chosen red flags

These four colors (white, black, green and red) dominate the flags of Arab states.

The color green has a special place in Islam, and is often used to represent it among other world religions. One can often find it in mosques and other important places, as well as on the flag of Saudi Arabia.

Some say green was Muhammad’s favorite color and that he wore a green cloak and turban, while others believe it symbolizes vegetation and life.

Some say that after Muhammad, only the caliphs were allowed to wear green turbans. In the Qur'an (Surah 18:31), it is said that the inhabitants of paradise will wear green garments of fine silk. While the reference to the Qur'an is verifiable, it is not clear if other explanations are reliable or mere folklore.

Regardless of its origins, the color green has been firmly cemented in Islamic culture for centuries; for example, it is absent in many medieval European coats of arms, as during the Crusades, green was the color used by the Islamic soldiers. Additionally, in the palace of Topkapi in Istanbul, there is a room with relics of Muhammad.

One of the relics, kept locked in a chest, is said to have been Muhammad's banner, under which he had went to battle. Some say that this banner is green with golden embroidery; others say that it is black.

Certain words in Arabic script or characters can be regarded as visually representing Islam, such as "Allah" at the top of this page, or the Shahada.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/images/symbols/arabic-allah.jpg

A Shi'ite symbol is the sword, which is identified with Iimam Ali, who they believe fought with this sword and his life for Islam.

The gardens of the Mughal Empire in India were symbols of paradise (Jannah).

Source Here (http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/symbols.htm)

adbasque

19-08-2009, 12:10 AM

Islamic Views of Other Faiths

Contrary to Islam's reputation of converting by the sword, the Qur'an is clear that there must be "no compulsion in religion." {1} Yet Muslims are not pluralistic in their worldview - they consider their religion to the be the true religion and invite people of all races, nationalities and religions to be part of it.

Islam is closely connected to the two other Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity. In fact, the Qur'an explains that the religion of the Jews and Christians is the same as that revealed to Muhammad, and Allah is God of them all.

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn to Him. {2}

Source Here (http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/other.htm)

adbasque

19-08-2009, 12:56 AM

Not what your religion is about is it though be honest for once. Islam and it's intolerance is one of the main problems which causes divides and I have proven this.

I don't have to be honest, I am not lying, I don't have to lie either:
You're the intolerant not Islam :)
A Muslim can't lie, because it's against his fundamental belief, do you get it?
If he lies he is a fake not a true Muslim, the only time a Muslim is allowed to lie if he is in the hand of the enemy who would harm him, then if lying can save his life, yes it is permissible, because in the eyes of Allah, he had no choice.

We have explained this already, so there's no need to ask me to be honest.
I am as honest as I can get, and I also don't care what you believe.

I don't want my country overrun with Islamic nut jobs, got a problem with that? Obvioulsy you would like Britain to become yet another Muslim dominated country. If you truely believed what you say then you'd ditch Islam and join the human race.

This country that you keep calling "my" is not yours, there nearly 70 million of us, and they don't all think like you (Thank God)
I don't ditch Islam, I don't have to join the human race, I am in the human race, I am a Muslim not a martian.

You're the divider not me and certainly not Islam.
I am not here to divide people, you keep referring to you and us "The Muslims" well, I have told you before, if the entire 6 billion people decide to ditch Islam tomorrow, you can rest assured than at least one person won't and that's me :)
So just forget it man

Halal and kosher meats should be banned here (there is not one reason other than religious reasons as to why you practice it here in Britain)
I take it you're a vegetarian then?:rolleyes:

zarah

19-08-2009, 07:16 AM

Halal meat from a Halal butchers is much more honestly priced than meat from other butchers/supermarkets, I've found. You've gotta find a good one though, some seem quite smelly and dirty.

respect4others

19-08-2009, 08:00 AM

Is this hate and negativity all because of curry and halal meat???

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 08:13 AM

Is this hate and negativity all because of curry and halal meat???
LOL No I love curry. Halal/Kosher meat Muslims and Jews believe the animal should be sacrificed by having it's throat cut and blood drained (while the animal is fully conscious "wide awake" no anaesthetic.

Some animals can be alive for up to think it's 2 minutes in great pain as it slowly dies. (I'll have to go look up some facts have read some good articles stating ALL the reasons why it's not necessary for Halal/Kosher meats in Britain and Europe.

So can a Muslim or Jew explain the reasons why they feel they have to go through this process?

respect4others

19-08-2009, 08:41 AM

I found this article that is interesting ( at least to me) that makes a comparison between the slaughter process and the western one...

==============================================

The Halal Slaughter Controversy: Do Animal Rights activists protect the sheep or the Butcher?

Islamic Halal slaughter has increasingly come under attack from animal rights activists telling tales of barbaric blood-thirsty ritual slaughter. There are two distinct issues: there is the vegetarian agenda which wants to ban all consumption of animal products, and there is the animal rights lobby which argues for a humane method of slaughter.

Do animals have rights?

The vegetarian argument is that killing animals for the benefit of humans is cruel and an infringement of their rights. They put both on the same level without conceding any superiority to humans over animals. This argument is seriously flawed, because if animals had rights comparable to those of humans, they must also have equivalent duties. In other words, we must be able to blame them and punish them if they violate the rights of others. It is absurd that it should be considered a crime for humans to kill a sheep, but natural for a lion to do so. The problem stems from a misconception of the role of human life within the animal kingdom: a denial of purposeful creation within a clearly defined hierarchy degrades humans to the level of any other creature. Yet even then, the argument is illogical: Why should plants, for example, be denied the same protection from a violation of the sanctity of their life?

Is Islamic slaughter cruel?

The question of how an animal should be slaughtered to avoid cruelty is a different one. It is true that when the blood flows from the throat of an animal it looks violent, but just because meat is now bought neatly and hygienically packaged on supermarket shelves does not mean the animal didn’t have to die? Non-Islamic slaughter methods dictate that the animal should be rendered unconscious before slaughter. This is usually achieved by stunning or electrocution. Is it less painful to shoot a bolt into a sheep’s brain or to ring a chicken’s neck than to slit its throat? To watch the procedure does not objectively tell us what the animal feels.

The scientific facts

A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined these claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout.

The Halal method

With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages.

The Western method

Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal ceases to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymen’s terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move.

Appearances can deceive

Not all is what it seems, then. Those who want to outlaw Islamic slaughter, arguing for a humane method of killing animals for food, are actually more concerned about the feelings of people than those of the animals on whose behalf they appear to speak. The stunning method makes mass butchery easier and looks more palatable for the consumer who can deceive himself that the animal did not feel any pain when he goes to buy his cleanly wrapped parcel of meat from the supermarket. Islamic slaughter, on the other hand, does not try to deny that meat consumption means that animals have to die, but is designed to ensure that their loss of life is achieved with a minimum amount of pain.

The holistic view

Islam is a balanced way of life. For Muslims, the privilege of supplementing their diet with animal protein implies a duty to animal welfare, both during the rearing of the animal and during the slaughter. Modern Western farming and slaughter, on the other hand, aims at the mass consumer market and treats the animal as a commodity. Just as battery hens are easier for large-scale egg production, Western slaughter methods are easier for the meat industry, but they do neither the animal nor the end consumer any favours. The Islamic way guarantees a healthier life for the animal and a healthier meat for the consumer.

http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halal.htm

============================

To some degree, there is some sense in this. I cut the sole of my foot once against a broken tile in the swimming pool. Honestly, I did not feel ANY pain at all. Seems like someone took a twig and brush it against my sole. Mind you it was a pretty wide cut and I had to be stitched like about close to 20 stitches. Only at night (about 12 hours later or so) did I feel the pain. I learned through my biology class that the upon receiving an injury, the brain (i don't honestly know if this is specific to humans) releases a chemical (endorphine?) that shuts off the pain so as to protect the person from too much shock. (mind you this is my layman's explanation).

paulstott

19-08-2009, 10:12 AM

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 10:21 AM

So can a Muslim or Jew explain the reasons why they feel they have to go through this process?

there have been decades and decades worth of scientific, peer reviewed, western journals which all make it clear that the overwhelming majority of diseases which can be caught from eating meat, exist in the blood of the animal. the remainder are due to poor hygiene.

islam and judaism have known this for thousands of years, and have drained the blood from the animal, plus have strict rules on maintaining hygiene of the meat before and when eating.

these are the reasons. health and hygiene.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 10:55 AM

That comes in a series of leaflets from the Dawah lot in Birmingham, part of the UK Islamic Mission.

Its worth getting the whole series of leaflets they do if you ever see them - I find it useful to hone my secular arguments, and some of the stuff in there is pretty weak by any standards.

It figures.
So why does the animal have to be fully conscious? why not use anaesthetic or whatever other methods to null the pain. It's bad enough that animals have to give up their life, why not let them die with less pain. I don't buy the Islamic argument at all.

Plus storage is not an issue with modern technology (freezers etc) definitely not in Modernised cultures.
Neither is disease from blood. If none halal meat eaters don't get poisoned says it all.
Point is you do not need to use halal/Kosher methods in Britain or Europe for the above reasons named.

paulstott

19-08-2009, 11:10 AM

It figures.
So why does the animal have to be fully conscious? why not use anaesthetic or whatever other methods to null the pain. It's bad enough that animals have to give up their life, why not let them die with less pain. I don't buy the Islamic argument at all.

The argument from Islamists is ultimately always the same - that the Muslim way, as set out in the Qu'ran (or someone's interpretation of it) is best.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 11:16 AM

The argument from Islamists is ultimately always the same - that the Muslim way, as set out in the Qu'ran (or someone's interpretation of it) is best.

yet draining the blood and maintaining hygiene has always been a part of judaism/islam. its only in relatively recent times that the rest of the world has caught up with what we have always known.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 11:16 AM

Modern health laws stipulate that a butchered animal cannot fall in the blood of another animal. Therefore, animals are slaughtered on a conveyer belt in mid-air. Animals who are still conscious are absolutely and understandably terrified when chains are shackled to their legs and they are hoisted into the air upside-down. Animals thrash wildly in panic and excruciating pain, since their legs often break under their own weight and/or are pulled out of their sockets. For information about our investigation into conditions at the largest glatt kosher slaughterhouse in the world, go to http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors.

Many Jews and Muslims who know the truth about modern kosher and halal slaughter are understandably concerned and/or opposed to it—Orthodox rabbis have accepted the laws in such countries as Sweden where stunning is required. For more information on this subject, please visit http://www.IslamicConcern.org (http://www.islamicconcern.org/) and http://www.JewishVeg.com (http://www.jewishveg.com/).

The Government has stated that it will seek only minor changes in this practice on a voluntary basis. This is a totally inadequate response to a major animal welfare problem, affecting around 10 million animals per year. Slaughter without prestunning has been banned in Norway, Sweden and New Zealand. It is time for Britain to take immediate positive action to address this very important issue.

Subway, the pits?
Subway, the American owned fast food outlet is serving up halal meat at many of its outlets.For those who are unaware as to what a barbaric practice halal slaughter is, it involves the killing of animals without first pre-stunning them.The unfortunate beasts are strung upside down whilst fully conscious and a prayer is said. During this time, the animals are obviously terrified and whilst in full view of the next frightened victims of this alien ritual, their throats are cut open leaving them to bleed to death; fully aware of what is happening around them.Because they are upside down, the blood still drains to the animal’s brain making consciousness last approximately four minutes or sometimes even longer.

Although some people may argue that all animal slaughter is cruel, at least when pre-stunned they are unconscious and therefore unaware of their fate.This barbaric practice has no place in a modern Britain and should never have been allowed to take place at the behest of a minority of religious fanatics; especially in a country, which prides itself on its compassion towards animals.

picha

19-08-2009, 11:21 AM

Halal meat from a Halal butchers is much more honestly priced than meat from other butchers/supermarkets, I've found. You've gotta find a good one though, some seem quite smelly and dirty.

Well I suppose the animal didnt slowly bleed to death for nothing then.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 11:25 AM

hate to break it to you eternal_spirit, might come as a shock. brace urself.

people have always killed animals to eat their meat. our bodies are designed to handle it, since we are omnivores.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 11:35 AM

Modern Western farming and slaughter, on the other hand, aims at the mass consumer market and treats the animal as a commodity.
.

Your halal meat in Britain and the west well the animals are reared in the same way.
PS I ate a pork pie for breakfast no it's not a wind up. I used to be veggie for many years. And will probably go back to being veggie eventually. I like how Hindus treat their cows, drink milk make cheese.

And the Masai tribes of Africa, who drain blood from their cattle for sustenance, but as far as I remember don't kill the cattle, just take a bit of blood now and then.

You Muslims will be telling us that circumcision is painless next.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 11:42 AM

Read you lot don't like dogs either? What about cats?
Are there any animals revered in Islam?

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 12:24 PM

Read you lot don't like dogs either? What about cats?
Are there any animals revered in Islam?

its inaccurate to say "like", again there are hygiene issues. for example the saliva and fur of animals such as dogs and cats is known as "najis" - unclean/ unhygienic. again, modern science can prove that this is the case, with fleas, other parasites and potentially harmful bacteria in their saliva.

when you say we dont "like" animals, thats not true. the loyalty and goodness of dogs is even mentioned in the quran (with the companions of the cave), however we cannot pray if our clothes are unhygienic - eg covered in animal saliva/ fur.

for this reason you see muslims avoiding animals. this doesnt mean that there is a blanket ban hating on animals.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 12:38 PM

its inaccurate to say "like", again there are hygiene issues. for example the saliva and fur of animals such as dogs and cats is known as "najis" - unclean/ unhygienic. again, modern science can prove that this is the case, with fleas, other parasites and potentially harmful bacteria in their saliva.
Okay.

Let's get you upto date with more recent studies. Being around animals can help build up your immune system to bacteria etc. People with pets are less likely
to suffer from some illnesses, can't remember which but have read about this. (anyone can do a search to verify)

Dogs unfortunately need some help in modern societies to live. I like the cave quote.

when you say we dont "like" animals, thats not true. the loyalty and goodness of dogs is even mentioned in the quran (with the companions of the cave), however we cannot pray if our clothes are unhygienic - eg covered in animal saliva/ fur.
okay a hairy Mosque floor is not good.

for this reason you see muslims avoiding animals. this doesnt mean that there is a blanket ban hating on animals.
Basically, you'll never see a Muslim walking the dog, or have pets
at home, is that right?
And is any animal revered in Islam? Like the Hindus do with their cows/bulls.

manxboz

19-08-2009, 12:42 PM

Look why are we fighting? Don't you think this is what 'they' want, we need to all embrance love together.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 12:43 PM

its inaccurate to say "like", again there are hygiene issues. for example the saliva and fur of animals such as dogs and cats is known as "najis" - unclean/ unhygienic. again, modern science can prove that this is the case, with fleas, other parasites and potentially harmful bacteria in their saliva.

when you say we dont "like" animals, thats not true. the loyalty and goodness of dogs is even mentioned in the quran (with the companions of the cave), however we cannot pray if our clothes are unhygienic - eg covered in animal saliva/ fur.

for this reason you see muslims avoiding animals. this doesnt mean that there is a blanket ban hating on animals.

The Prophet(PBUH) did three things in regards to a Dog, Cat and ants as an example to the rest of us on how to treat animals.

a Cat fast asleep on his garment, he had to get to pray, he didn't want to disturb the cat (Prophet pbuh always had a cat in his lap) he cut his garment around the cat, to avoid disturbing the cat's sleep.

A dog was dying of thirst and the Prophet had no way to give him water, he used his shoe to give that dog a drink of water.

While walking he always brushes ahead of him not to step on ants, he always looks down to make sure he doesn't step on little creatures.

See he is such a cruel man, and savage.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 12:52 PM

Look why are we fighting? Don't you think this is what 'they' want, we need to all embrance love together.

That is exactly what they want, if they don't divide with religion they divide with classes, if not classes, there are ways of dividing and getting people to fight one another.

Which I found very ironic when I read some people having a go at "Foreigners, Immigrants" or any other community.

If all of these immigrants, foreigners, dark skinned people leave this country, we will be fighting welsh and Scotts, if not Lancashire vs Yorkshire, and so on..

It has happened before, it's a human nature to find someone to hate and blame for everything.

Well the truth is, there's always one attacking first, so the other is automatically on the defensive mode.

I know that hate is definitely from one side.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 01:06 PM

I have two cats, I've always had cats, I had Dogs not long ago, what I don't do is let the Dog lick me, because there was a study carried out a few years ago.

Where a dog was given food in a plate, they washed the plate with soap and hot water, after they ran it under a microscope in a lab they could still see bacteria and microbes.

However they used the ancient method where they washed 7 times with dirt, then and rinsed ran it again under a microscope that plate was clean.

This experiment followed a heated debate about Dog's saliva in particular, cats are much cleaner than Dogs.

Two thing we can all see, a cat before it does it's "business" it first digs a hole does the business (number 2) then buries and makes sure it's all buried, a Dog on the other hand, can drop it anywhere he feels like.

I know a lot of people think if the Dog is vaccinated he is clean, I am sorry this is daft to think that few vaccines will alter it's nature.

I have noticed that some people especially here in the west are totally brainwashed where they can give money to charity that looks after Dogs and Cats, and not to a charity that looks after young deprived children.

It doesn't mean I don't like animals, but I am sorry if it's a choice of saving a human being or an animal, I won't even think twice.

I think it's sick.

There was a one point two ads running at the same time.

Give £4 a month for the RSPCA and £2 a month for the RSPCC, and yet people can't see anything wrong with this?

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 01:15 PM

Look why are we fighting? Don't you think this is what 'they' want, we need to all embrance love together.

On the whole we do all live in peace in Britain. And still can. What goes on in other countries can cause strife here. The extremists are the problem. The secular moderate Muslims should do ALL and what they can to oust these extremists. A secular society (when peaceful) can set a good example for others.

There's many English people who do not want the Muslim population in our country out breeding the indigenous people majority white same as in some European countries (no smart ass comments please it's a major concern of many and rightly so, if the shoe was on the other foot the Muslims would feel the same)

Just watch the number of Muslim politicians grow in numbers, eventually it's possible they will have a large Islamic influence in politics, which may lead to Shariah law for ALL, and majority vote (most non Muslims don't even vote!)

Muslims are against - contraceptives, vasectomys, abortions, while most of ALL other groups are not. Yes including most Catholics. (in the past Catholics out bred others, but not now)

So even though Muslims are still a minority their numbers are increasing rapidly the most common baby boy's name in England is Muhammed (for God's sake) Muslim's own figures suggested (6 million Muslims that's 1 in 10 people are Muslims and that was years ago, so the real figures maybe higher, not to mention those children not registered at birth and the Illegal immigrants)

They have many countries of their own where Islam is the majority, so why do they want to live in Britain? And expect us to pander to their religious needs. This is why some don't trust Islam, and think they'd like to take over and have Shariah Islamic rule.

I don't agree with circumcision, or halal/Kosher meat. Some Jews and Muslims know it's wrong too, and are against it. (we've debated this enough already no need to go there)

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 01:22 PM

I know that hate is definitely from one side.

Come off it, you know for a fact that is not true. Takes two too tango and all that Jazz. Glad you like your cats and dogs lol. The saliva issue and bacteria, when someone is exposed to animals they build up immunity to these things, which help fight off other disease, and viruses. Even a cough or cold etc.

I know I've kept dogs and cats and have been around them all my life.
Not enough exposure to bacteria, even dirt new studys have concluded some amounts is good for us, being to hygenic doesn't allow you to build up a natural immunity to such things.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 01:42 PM

Basically, you'll never see a Muslim walking the dog, or have pets
at home, is that right?

thats quite obviously not true. muslims have no significant difference in numbers of cats and dogs than any other community. eg in iraq its well known that there is "a dog in every home" in most parts of the country, since iraqis love their dogs as pets. in iran, they love birds, although iranians hate to keep birds in cages so they prefer birds like homing pigeons and falconing etc

And is any animal revered in Islam? Like the Hindus do with their cows/bulls.

why do you keep asking this? no animal is "revered" in the way hindus revere their cows. many animals are mentioned with respect in the quran and sayings of the prophet, for example horses, ants, bees, lions, spiders, things like that. i cant give you a concise list because you can bet that there are loads.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 01:42 PM

Come off it, you know for a fact that is not true. Takes two too tango and all that Jazz. Glad you like your cats and dogs lol. The saliva issue and bacteria, when someone is exposed to animals they build up immunity to these things, which help fight off other disease, and viruses. Even a cough or cold etc.

It takes two to tango, who's attacking who?
You're the one attacking Muslims we defend our position, and expose the lies, whether they are yours or someone elses that you copy paste, so we are showing you what you're pasting is false and fabricated, not necessarily you who lies, but after we've shown you a correct version or the true meaning, you should accept, which you don't.
You want to believe whoever is bashing Islam and Muslims.

I love animals, it's a fact, but having a Dog licking me all over no thanks
If he licks my hand I will wash it as many times as I can.
Yes we can build our immune system, some bacteria can make you real sick,
I don't see why you have an issue with someone who wants to keep clean?

I know I've kept dogs and cats and have been around them all my life.
Not enough exposure to bacteria, even dirt new studys have concluded some amounts is good for us, being to hygenic doesn't allow you to build up a natural immunity to such things.

So did I, I always had animals, mainly Dogs and Cats, since I can remember, I had chickens, I had rabbits, I had all sorts of animals.

I don't think there's a human being who doesn't like animals, although I saw many people being extremely cruel to their pets.

They should be locked up, anyway.
So maybe if you stop attacking people, hein?
When you know it's the work of the Elite, to get us hate one another and you're falling for it.
Britain won't be taken by Muslims, and one other thing, You have a lot of Asians in politic today, Jews have been in politics for ages, and it's not even the good ones, that didn't bother you, why does it bother you when you have a handful of Muslims in politics??
Can you see your obssession with Islam and Muslims?
I promise you there is a small handful of muslims in politics, actually there are more sikhs and hindus than muslims.

So why do you always exagerate things, we have shown, there's less 5% of Muslims in this country, you make it sound like 99%

You constantly exagerate and take things out of proportion.
Am I wrong?

daseem

19-08-2009, 01:59 PM

Okay.

Basically, you'll never see a Muslim walking the dog, or have pets
at home, is that right?
And is any animal revered in Islam? Like the Hindus do with their cows/bulls.

what!! I have seen plenty of muslims walking dogs and have dogs/cats/birds as pets.

I don't think any animal is revered in Islam, Judaism or Christianity. Yes hindus see cows as their mother or something, some also consume cow urine! That's reverence for you!

adbasque

19-08-2009, 02:05 PM

what!! I have seen plenty of muslims walking dogs and have dogs/cats/birds as pets.

I don't think any animal is revered in Islam, Judaism or Christianity. Yes hindus see cows as their mother or something, some also consume cow urine! That's reverence for you!

I know of shop that sells sweets, recently were caught to splash what they call Jalabi, or Zalabia, red deep fried sweet and then deeped in syrup.

They use cow's urine in many things, now I know a lot of families who don't use that in their food or anywhere else for that matter.

It's not fair to generalise, but yes this practice is real.

picha

19-08-2009, 03:06 PM

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 03:14 PM

They drink camel piss in arab countries.

urine of any animal or human is listed amongst the "najis" (unclean/ unhygienic) things, such as blood, faeces, semen, vomit etc.

as such, the hadith you think you are being clever about (as though we havent heard of it before :rolleyes:) is instantly rejected on the grounds of it goes against sharia, the quran and common sense. since urine is a poisen and therefore damaging to the body, and damaging the body is prohibited.

so no, they dont do it in arab countries and no, that bollocks hadith is not reliable, and you fail.

have a nice day.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 03:29 PM

urine of any animal or human is listed amongst the "najis" (unclean/ unhygienic) things, such as blood, faeces, semen, vomit etc.

as such, the hadith you think you are being clever about (as though we havent heard of it before :rolleyes:) is instantly rejected on the grounds of it goes against sharia, the quran and common sense. since urine is a poisen and therefore damaging to the body, and damaging the body is prohibited.

so no, they dont do it in arab countries and no, that bollocks hadith is not reliable, and you fail.

have a nice day.

It's absolutely amazing how they make up such crap, and they lie with a big smile on their faces.
The only thing wrong with the internet is that people feel so safe and they can claim, make up lies without fearing to be ridiculed or humiliated, things which they wouldn't normally do in the real life.

Which country that drinks camel urine?
Arab countries, yeah, all of them? God you're just a full time shill.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 03:38 PM

Maybe Picha got confused :rolleyes:

Hindu extremists promote cow-urine soft-drink

Radical Hindus in India are attempting to cleanse the nation of foreign soft-drinks by promoting an "ayurvedic" beverage made from cow urine:

More here (http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/12/hindu-extremists-pro.html)

I hope that some shills won't take this a general practice by every Hindu out there :rolleyes:

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 03:42 PM

They drink camel piss in arab countries.
Charming, notice how they are quick to beat on Hindus (not suprise they've had a 1400 year Jihad on India)
And have recently been killing their holy Cows and taking their women as slaves.

Gotta laugh at ILV with his that hadith is BS etc blah blah (funny that millions of Muslims would disagree with him) Note this comment is about Hadiths in general. Conscenus of the Islamic community is also often ignored as good evidence.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 03:43 PM

It's absolutely amazing how they make up such crap, and they lie with a big smile on their faces.
The only thing wrong with the internet is that people feel so safe and they can claim, make up lies without fearing to be ridiculed or humiliated, things which they wouldn't normally do in the real life.

Which country that drinks camel urine?
Arab countries, yeah, all of them? God you're just a full time shill.Spoken like a typical Muslim, no allowance for others opinions (because Muslims are always right everyone else is always wrong, we know that's how you think)

Is that a threat you're making? We don't lie, you do.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 03:44 PM

Charming, notice how they are quick to beat on Hindus (not suprise they've had a 1400 year Jihad on India)
And have recently been killing their holy Cows and taking their women as slaves.

yet you are free and morally obliged to "beat on" islam at any opportunity? you are a hypocrite now as well as a liar?

Gotta laugh at ILV with his that hadith is BS etc blah blah (funny that millions of Muslims would disagree with him) Note this comment is about Hadiths in general. Conscenus of the Islamic community is also often ignored as good evidence.

you really want to try and discuss the science of hadiths with me? you think you know better than i do?

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 03:53 PM

yet you are free and morally obliged to "beat on" islam at any opportunity? you are a hypocrite now as well as a liar?
I'm just reporting on what Islam done and does to Indians (none Muslims)
You chose to be religious I can say what I like about a religion that has many aspects and rules which are not for the benefit of humanity and could lead to detrimental consequences for myself and people in my home lands. But for YOUR relgious folk Islam puts you above ALL others.

you really want to try and discuss the science of hadiths with me? you think you know better than i do?
(funny that millions of Muslims would disagree with you and see certain hadiths and texts from the Koran as good sources) Note this comment is about Hadiths in general. This says it all and makes you a liar.

Besides you speak mostly for Shiite (Shia) Muslims, aren't your lot only around 10% of all Muslims?

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 03:57 PM

I'm just reporting on what Islam done and does to Indians (none Muslims)

so when you do it, its "reporting" and its ok, but when someone else does something similar, you go up in arms in moral outrage?

what a joke

(funny that millions of Muslims would disagree with you and see certain hadiths and texts from the Koran as good sources) Note this comment is about Hadiths in general. This says it all and makes you a liar.

Besides you speak mostly for Shiite (Shia) Muslims, aren't your lot only around 10% of all Muslims?

the list of najis things are the same for all muslims, so im afraid i actually talk for all muslims. and both you and picha dont have a leg to stand on.

and what "millions" of muslims may or may not do is no evidence at all

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 04:01 PM

This is exactly what I was on about.
Millions of Muslims disagree with you!
You don't think FGM is right? yes. You and Adbasque a while ago BOTH denied this is part of Islam. I proved you wrong and will do so again now. (so don't call me aliar)

The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The Hadith

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu-Dawud: book 41, number 5251, Hasan)

Part 2.
The Shariah

The following reference to Shariah law comes from Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. This book comes with the approval al-Azhar University.

Al-Azhar University ( الأزهر الشريف) is the leading institution for Sunni learning in the Islamic world.

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam

However the practice has a long history in the middle east and was closely related to rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the old kingdom of Egypt myth contended that blood from circumcision to guarantee the fertility realted to the river Nile, and early Egpytian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and 120 females.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.:rolleyes: It is practised on Both male an female children born to Muslim parents as well of males of any age who join the religion. Most literature regarding circumcision is found in "hadith" these are narratives, sayings and deeds of prophet and his associates recorded by Muslim scholars and biographers. Legal discussions in the hadith literature about it resemble Talmudic discussions on issues of religious importance to Jews. Additionally the language used by the arabic sources evokes the more familiar Hebrew terminology.

Like the Quran, the different reports in the Hadith literature reveal little information concerning the reasons for male circumcision among Muslims. On the other hand reports point to one's status as a Muslim, a practitioner of the faith of Allah. Similarily other traditions teach that certain Islamic practices require the participants to be circumcise Muslims. These can include coversion, pilgramage to Mecca, inheritance, even prayer.

Shiite traditions regard the practice obligatory and tend to lead toward the extreme side on the issue. One account relates that the earth cries out to god in anguish on account of the uncircumcised. Another notes that Muslims should circumcise their sons on the seventh day, if not the earth becomes ritually contaminated for 40 days. Hadith are reported that the Prophet's grandsons Hassan and Husayn were circumcised on the seventh day after their birth and Fatima herself is quoted talking about her son's circumcision on this day.

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)

adbasque

19-08-2009, 04:07 PM

I'm just reporting on what Islam done and does to Indians (none Muslims)
You chose to be religious I can say what I like about a religion that has many aspects and rules which are not for the benefit of humanity and could lead to detrimental consequences for myself and people in my home lands. But for YOUR relgious folk Islam puts you above ALL others.

I start to think you're an Indian, really, more and more you talk and make Indians sound like Angels.
Well they give as much as they get, we are not idiots, we get reports aswell
You're always defending the Indians, I start to think you don't have relatives who are Asians, I honestly believe you are an Indian.

And that explains a lot of things, and your bitterness and obssession with Muslims.

(funny that millions of Muslims would disagree with you and see certain hadiths and texts from the Koran as good sources) Note this comment is about Hadiths in general. This says it all and makes you a liar.

Besides you speak mostly for Shiite (Shia) Muslims, aren't your lot only around 10% of all Muslims?
We are they these Millions of Muslims who would disagree with him?

Show me these Muslims, show me where in a Hadith it says we must drink urine, show me where in the Quoran.

Like the pictures of the Crescent and the star is that your proof that it is part of Islam?
There's no point in discussing any common sense or anything with you for that matter.

I am convinced now you're an Indian who hates Muslims.
To be honest I couldn't care less what you really are.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 04:13 PM

This is exactly what I was on about.
Millions of Muslims disagree with you!
You don't think FGM is right? yes. You and Adbasque a while ago BOTH denied this is part of Islam. I proved you wrong and will do so again now. (so don't call me aliar)

Yes you are a liar because we have discussed this a million time, you keep bringing it again and again and again and again, so what do we do?

We call you a LIAR again and again and again and again :D simple

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)

Fitra is NOT a Wajib or Fard, go and find out the difference between what is Fitrah, Wajib/Fard.

Who denied that circumcision is an Islamic practice?
Trimming of the moustache so it doesn't get into your food.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 04:27 PM

I start to think you're an Indian, really, more and more you talk and make Indians sound like Angels.
Makes a change from the usual labels. (Only one person on this forum has seen me off line so I could even be a woman :D) But he's sworn to secrecy being a life long friend, and no one even knows his user name here.

Fact Indian food is the best imo. Not so sure about Bollywood though, some of the girls are hot. The Irish prob got everyone else licked for music, although in some places try tell the difference between Irish, Indian or even Chinese Music, you can't because they use some of the same scales and similar sounding instruments.

The Barats (Barati) may have been where Britain got it's name (I am part Barat through the Irish side, the original Barats "Aryans" to settle Britain may have been Indian or Persian even.) Some Aryans came from the cold North too, although they don't know were they came from (Hyperborea LOL)

You're always defending the Indians, I start to think you don't have relatives who are Asians, I honestly believe you are an Indian.

Oh but I do have, but you can believe what you like.

I am convinced now you're an Indian who hates Muslims.
To be honest I couldn't care less what you really are.

There's still English people who hate the Romans or the French for something that happened eons ago. For all they know they may have some French or Italian blood themselves, such is the irony. Like I may have some Persian or Indian blood and be related to the Barati/Barat (small chance) but possible going off names. Or, my blood maybe Irish and have nothing to do with India/Persia., just got the Barat/Barati (Barret etc various spellings) name.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 04:29 PM

This is exactly what I was on about.
Millions of Muslims disagree with you!
You don't think FGM is right? yes. You and Adbasque a while ago BOTH denied this is part of Islam. I proved you wrong and will do so again now. (so don't call me aliar)

funny, for a minute there we were talking about the way you somehow think that there is a disagreement between muslims that urine is not clean?

oh wait, you couldnt answer so you changed the subject. of course,

yet again, you are proven as a liar.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 04:34 PM

I think thouh taketh the piss young man. Still warbling on about camel piss, we've moved on since that, get with the programme! Anyone reading can see my points are valid (and has nothing to do with camel piss but hadiths and intructions from your boy Muhamhead.

Why explain myself again, it's all there in text, you're just trying to slime you way out of being wrong!LOL and making an even bigger fool of yourself.

You really do think you lot are more intelligent than us you call Kaffirs. LOLOLOLOLOL (your false sense of superiority has been exposed again) Jokes on you Mohammeddaddy's boys.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 04:37 PM

I think thouh taketh the piss young man. Still warbling on about camel piss, we've moved on since that, get witht he programme! Anyone reading can see my points are valid why explain myself again, it's all there in text, you're just trying to slime you way out of being wrong!LOL and making an even bigger fool of yourself.

You really do think you lot are more intelligent than us you call Kaffirs. LOLOLOLOLOL (your false sense of superiority has been exposed again) Jokes on you Mohammeddaddy's boys.

who is "we"? you are the one who suddenly changed the subject. im still waiting for you to answer if you think i am lying, and there is a difference in opinion between muslims as to whether urine is clean or not.

you apparantely believe that "millions of muslims" disagree with me?

so do you believe that "millions of muslims" disagree with me and think urine is clean?

picha

19-08-2009, 04:38 PM

funny, for a minute there we were talking about the way you somehow think that there is a disagreement between muslims that urine is not clean?

oh wait, you couldnt answer so you changed the subject. of course,

yet again, you are proven as a liar.

Camel Urine in Arab Medicine

The medicinal properties of the Arabian camel were known to Arab physicians. In his magisterial Canon - "a medical bible for a longer time than any other

work"[4], Ibn Sînâ (Avicenna) mentions that chronic imbalance of the liver produces jaundice, dropsy (istisqâ'), and swelling of the belly and that the

health of the liver can be restored through a temporary diet of camel milk and male Arabian Najîb camel urine, "the most beneficient type of urine,

then human urine."[5] Avicennan textbooks by Ibn al-Azraq (d. 890) and al-Suwaydî (600-690) state, "The cure [for dropsy] is to drink the milk of

the she-camel - together with its urine - fresh out of the udder[6], and to use that every day and leave everything else, for it is extremely efficient

and of proven results."[7]

Ibn Sayyid al-Nâs specifies, "notably desert camels feeding on wormwood and southernwood."[8] Wormwood is among the herbs that are extremely useful in

correcting digestive disorders in general and for helping detoxify the liver in particular, and is used in the treatment of hepatitis.[9]

Thus, Arabian camel urine was a standard prescription in Arabic medicine and remains a staple of Bedouin natural remedies to this day both as diuretic,

snuff and delousing hair wash.

Camel’s Urine Drinking In Hadith

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 8.797 Narrated byAnas bin Malik

A group of people from 'Ukl (or 'Uraina) tribe--but I think he said that they were from 'Ukl--came to Medina and (they became ill, so) the Prophet

ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) she-camels and told them to go out and drink the camels' urine and milk (as a medicine). So they went and drank

it, and when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This news reached the Prophet early in the morning, so he sent

(some) men in their pursuit and they were captured and brought to the Prophet before midday. He ordered to cut off their hands and legs and their

eyes to be branded with heated iron pieces and they were thrown at Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink, they were not given water. (Abu

Qilaba said, "Those were the people who committed theft and murder and reverted to disbelief after being believers (Muslims), and fought against

Allah and His Apostle").

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 04:44 PM

what did i tell you about that hadith?

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 04:45 PM

ILV I am not the one discussing camel piss. that's Picha's debate look see -health of the liver can be restored through a temporary diet of camel milk and male Arabian Najîb camel urine, "the most beneficient type of urine, Re read my posts. (and has nothing to do with camel piss but hadiths and intructions from your boy Muhamhead which relates to my other post about Circumcision (FMG) as instructed by Muhamhead and carried out by Millions of Muslims (who you disagree with)

Plus how millions of Muslims disagree with you on certain things in Islam. I rest my case. It's water tight air tight and Muslim tight! Alright?

adbasque

19-08-2009, 04:48 PM

There's cynade in some antidotes too, does that mean you drink synade?

Deuh... :rolleyes:

Yes Camel milk, there's nothing wrong with it at all.

But Urine nobody drinks it, if people do drink it it's cultural not part of Islam.
I have never ever met anyone who drinks it or heard of anyone who drinks it, in the middle east and north africa.

This is a pure fabrication

picha

19-08-2009, 04:55 PM

There's cynade in some antidotes too, does that mean you drink synade?

Deuh... :rolleyes:

Dont you mean cyanide?

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 05:02 PM

Dont you mean cyanide?
Yeah I'd swear his grammatical errors are more like that of an Arab or some non white person from an Islamic country who has not mastered the use of English.

Although he claims to be a white English man who dug Islam so much he converted) :D

Adbasque you were due that one after what you said you think I am (Indian) Just having a LOL lighten things up.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:02 PM

Dont you mean cyanide?

Yes I meant Cyanide, just make sure you don't slip then, because I'll be there, t pint it out is that all you can do?

You must have lots f it hidden inside you :rolleyes:

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 05:04 PM

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 05:05 PM

It could be worse you could be accused of being a bunch of vampires. Blood libel sure you know what that is.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:06 PM

Yeah I'd swear his grammatical errors are more like that of an Arab or some non white person from an Islamic country who has not mastered the use of English.

Although he claims to be a white English man who dug Islam so much he converted) :D

Adbasque you were due that one after what you said you think I am (Indian) Just having a LOL lighten things up.

You're a bigot, this wasn't a gramatical error, it was a spelling error, due to the fact I was typing very quickly.

I can show you Arabs who will teach you English all over again, oh and you're an Indian I swear you're an Indian.

Diverting the subject?
Is this the standard practice by the shills? how to change the subject.

I will get you around the corner don't you worry. :D

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 05:09 PM

ILV I am not the one discussing camel piss. that's Picha's debate look see - Re read my posts. (and has nothing to do with camel piss but hadiths and intructions from your boy Muhamhead which relates to my other post about Circumcision (FMG) as instructed by Muhamhead and carried out by Millions of Muslims (who you disagree with)

Plus how millions of Muslims disagree with you on certain things in Islam. I rest my case. It's water tight air tight and Muslim tight! Alright?

mmhmm. well done. that certainly put me in my place.

picha

19-08-2009, 05:09 PM

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:10 PM

How can you say its only people like the wahabbis who are extremists when mohammed, the prophet of islam no less did the kind of things so called extremists do?

I am sure you meant "It's" :)

Do you know the difference between it's and its? Mr Shakespeare:rolleyes:

Since I've been reading your posts, I have seen hundreds of stupid mistakes, not just spelling errors.

But I never bothered to point them out, From now on make sure you spell check everything, because I will pick you up and everytime you make a mistake.

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 05:10 PM

Urine isnt unclean anyway its sterile, its just a filtrate of the animals blood.

so you would drink piss from someone would you?

and of course it is unclean you moron, what do you think uric acid is? a health tonic?

islamvslizards

19-08-2009, 05:13 PM

Uric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uric acid is produced by xanthine oxidase from xanthine and hypoxanthine, which in turn are produced from purine. Uric acid is more toxic to tissues than either xanthine or hypoxanthine.

god islam is just so wrong and barbaric to refer to urine as "najis" (unclean and unhygienic), we should all chug away shouldnt we picha?

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:15 PM

Urine isnt unclean anyway its sterile, its just a filtrate of the animals blood.

It's sterile, it's just

Not Its and its obviously you think the apostrophe is for decoration purposes :) Mr/Ms

daseem

19-08-2009, 05:22 PM

picha, avicenna, if he did indeed say those things, is not a founder member of islam. nor does islam allow the mixing of the tathir (clean) with the unclean (najis). he made some brilliant discoveries, and it also stands to reason that he must have made mistakes in his life too. however, whatever his views on the benefits of urine, this has nothing to do with the actual hadith itself, which is rejected because urine no matter what is seen as "najis"

The real meaning behind this is that if a person needs to consume an impure and impermissible substance as a cure for an illness, and no other reasonable alternative is available, then it is permissible. In all other circumstances, camel urine is prohibited. However it is not consumed because muslims revere the camel like hindus do cows.

According to Imam Shafi: Prescription of camel urine is a life-and-death exception that has the same status as the dispensation for eating carrion meat in case of extreme necessity. This also applies to alcohol.

daseem

19-08-2009, 05:27 PM

LOL:

http://www.moronface.com/make-pictures/funny-pictures/ugly-photos-4104/Ctrl_C_Ctrl_V_12.jpg

picha

19-08-2009, 05:35 PM

uric acid - the main component of urea, which is what urine is made up of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid)

god islam is just so wrong and barbaric to refer to urine as "najis" (unclean and unhygienic), we should all chug away shouldnt we picha?

So does that mean 'golden showers' are haram between a man and his wife in islam?

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:36 PM

haha didn't take him long to reply.

Even though he'd said for about the 50 th time he's no longer talking to us. Like I said another lie. :D

Apparantly you complaing about the smell of curry is racist (think that's how they decided you qualify as racist, I'd like to see any other so called evidence of racism from you:rolleyes:) with that kind of evidence oh lolololol you're guilty hahaha.
NOT!

You meant apparently I am sure?

So how is your English doing now?:rolleyes:
How is your spelling?

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:41 PM

So does that mean 'golden showers' are haram between a man and his wife in islam?

Gone silent Mr Shakespeare?
It is not "its" but It's the apostrophe s replaces the "is"

Its means "something belonging to somebody or something else.

Shall I continue?

I can dig out more of your moronic mistakes, but I won't bother because I am not like you lot.

adbasque

19-08-2009, 05:49 PM

According to Imam Shafi: Prescription of camel urine is a life-and-death exception that has the same status as the dispensation for eating carrion meat in case of extreme necessity. This also applies to alcohol.

There are exceptions, for alcohol unless it is a health and medical requirement or you're dying of thirst there's nothing else to drink.

Same goes for Pork and so on..
Even venom is used in most antidotes.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2009, 06:52 PM

You're a bigot, this wasn't a gramatical error, it was a spelling error, due to the fact I was typing very quickly.

I can show you Arabs who will teach you English all over again, oh and you're an Indian I swear you're an Indian.

Diverting the subject?
Is this the standard practice by the shills? how to change the subject.

I will get you around the corner don't you worry. :D
See the Koran or Muhamhead never had a sense of humour really shows in you guys not being able to take a joke (which was in good faith)
You've sworn I was many other things before and you were wrong. And guess what you're wrong again. :D
Now I don't believe you are a white English man, if you don't believe who I say I am.

:D
PS mine was a typo, I've seen many other grammatical errors from you.

respect4others

19-08-2009, 07:06 PM

Hi eternal spirit? May I ask why do you seem to hate Islam so much? Is it because of personal tragedy involving a Muslim person or something else? I'm not taking a piss, just curious.. I know tjohn hates because of the supposed influx of Muslims in the country...How about you?

Thanks..

tjohn

19-08-2009, 07:09 PM

I hate to be the one to point this out but, you do know your avatar is of the moon don't you?lol

adbasque

19-08-2009, 07:51 PM

See the Koran or Muhamhead never had a sense of humour really shows in you guys not being able to take a joke (which was in good faith)
You've sworn I was many other things before and you were wrong. And guess what you're wrong again. :D
Now I don't believe you are a white English man, if you don't believe who I say I am.

:D
PS mine was a typo, I've seen many other grammatical errors from you.

It's not the first time, so it wasn't a typing error, BS :D
You also misspelled definitely as definately on numerous occasions.
That's not a typing error, when you do it once ok but not everytime.

We all make mistakes, especially while working on something else.
If you don't believe I am a white man who cares what I am?
I'll be proud of who I am I don't care if I am white blue or green.

So far you're the one who has a problem with it :rolleyes:

Anyway this is very childish, the topic is not about spelling and grammar.
This was just your mate Picha who wanted to change the subject when she runs out of arguments as usual.

back to the topic

zarah

19-08-2009, 08:26 PM

Well I suppose the animal didnt slowly bleed to death for nothing then.

Oh, ever the dramatist. :rolleyes:

What type of meat do you buy, or are you a vegetarian?

Whatever the method of killing, it's still murder so that we can eat. From what I've read, it's more humane slit its throat than to try to stun it by shoving a tool down the back of its throat in the hope that it works.

Why is it that people who show no concern for animal welfare/ human rights / women's rights, immediately become activists in these areas whenever Islam is discussed?

zarah

19-08-2009, 08:30 PM

Yeah I'd swear his grammatical errors are more like that of an Arab or some non white person from an Islamic country who has not mastered the use of English.

Although he claims to be a white English man who dug Islam so much he converted) :D

Adbasque you were due that one after what you said you think I am (Indian) Just having a LOL lighten things up.

Omg, you're totally being vile!

So what if he is an 'Arab or non-white person from an Islamic country who has not mastered the use of English'? Does that make his views any less valid than yours? My days....seriously, sometimes I wonder if half the people here actually read anything of David's work...

And insulting someone to that degree, whether he is white or anything else isn't an attempt to 'lighten things up'...you're really horribly disrespectful sometimes..it's no wonder you're gaining the rep you are here.

zarah

19-08-2009, 08:31 PM

I am sure you meant "It's" :)

Do you know the difference between it's and its? Mr Shakespeare:rolleyes:

Since I've been reading your posts, I have seen hundreds of stupid mistakes, not just spelling errors.

But I never bothered to point them out, From now on make sure you spell check everything, because I will pick you up and everytime you make a mistake.

Isn't Picha a girl? I'm not being devisive or changing the subject...I genuinely thought he/she was...

adbasque

19-08-2009, 08:51 PM

Isn't Picha a girl? I'm not being devisive or changing the subject...I genuinely thought he/she was...

I always thought she was a girl.

picha

19-08-2009, 11:00 PM

Isn't Picha a girl? I'm not being devisive or changing the subject...I genuinely thought he/she was...

Im Male.

tjohn

20-08-2009, 12:33 AM

Any takers?:rolleyes: Tjohn? Mind1universe?
So much of Gods, Any Ideas John?
Ok, it's a long story but I will try to summarise the best I can. Over many thousands of years beings from other worlds have indeed visited our planet! The bible is in fact partly to do with that story, as earlier texts are, some of which are repeated in the bible - but the bible distorts and hides many details.

Some of those who came here were known as the Anunnaki which word is equivalent to the plural Hebrew word, Elohim (or Elohym) - however, religious teachers would have us believe otherwise.

When the Anunnaki came here they needed food - and gold but not so much gold in it's metallic form. Monoatomic gold can be made from metallic gold and lo! there's metallic gold on the Earth! So they set their 'lower' ranks to work in the fields for food and in the mines for gold (if you have done your study you should know this already).

However, I do not accept Sitchin's interpretation of them literally coming from planet X nor from Nibiru, for the simple reason that planet X is for most of the time so far away from the Sun that it's frozen so solid that it cannot support life. On the other hand, some say that planet X is a red dwarf (star) and again, no life can exist on such an object! Therefore, I conclude that 'Nibiru' is symbolic as is the 'atmosphere' of gold. Gold in monoatomic form, helps connect the brain so we can have a different 'atmosphere' of thinking.

I have taken small amounts of monoatomic gold and I cannot afford to buy more but I do know that it does make a difference. So that is, in my opinion, why that Anunnaki were in search of gold... because it gave them the ability to think more clearly than they would otherwise.

They came here and found food and gold but the workers decided that they had enough! So to solve the problem, a guy called Enki (or En.Ki.) and his sister came up with a 'bright' idea! The idea was to use early ape-man to do the work instead but he would need more intellect to work in the fields and mines. So one of the Anunnaki was bled and his genes were mixed with early 'ape' man to make the new creature, modern humans. (This BTW is why Darwin evolutionists are still looking for the 'missing link')

It says in the Bible "let us make man in our image and likeness" - the image being the body and the likeness being the thinking qualities of the Anunnaki/Elohim (at least to an extent). However the 'gods' did not want us to think too much for ourselves and this is part of the reason why we have religion which hides the truth.

Before anyone po-poes this story as utter nonsense, lets not forget that the flood was described in the Sumerian texts before the bible and lets not forget that Abraham came from Ur which was in Sumer, where the rivers Tigress and Euphrates met - where the biblical 'Garden of Eden' was said to be.
Sumer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Abraham came from Sumeria and it is surely not simply coincidence that the bible reflects some of the Sumerian writings. But of course, religion tries to hide this, especially in Islam (which came later) where it says that Abraham came from somewhere else.

picha

20-08-2009, 01:35 AM

quran 2:1

Muhsin Khan: Alif-Lam-Mim. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Quran and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings].

Can anyone explain to me whats so miraculous about 3 random letters that appear to be completely meaningless?

picha

20-08-2009, 01:46 AM

tjohn

20-08-2009, 02:24 AM

zarah

20-08-2009, 05:21 AM

Im Male.

Really? I'm surprised..

zarah

20-08-2009, 05:26 AM

Ok, it's a long story but I will try to summarise the best I can. Over many thousands of years beings from other worlds have indeed visited our planet!

That's an interesting theory. Where did you read about it?

I wouldn't suggest I'm knowledgeable on the Qur'an, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't discount the theory of life on other planets.

zarah

20-08-2009, 05:33 AM

eternal_spirit

20-08-2009, 08:12 AM

Omg, you're totally being vile!

So what if he is an 'Arab or non-white person from an Islamic country who has not mastered the use of English'? Does that make his views any less valid than yours? My days....seriously, sometimes I wonder if half the people here actually read anything of David's work...

And insulting someone to that degree, whether he is white or anything else isn't an attempt to 'lighten things up'...you're really horribly disrespectful sometimes..it's no wonder you're gaining the rep you are here.
Come off it LOL I was replying to him having a LOL. he always said he was a white English man who converted to Islam, he doesn't believe who I say I am so for a lol, look what he said haha :D I thought I'd play him at his own game. PS I was reading Icke when he brought out his first books.

Originally Posted by adbasque http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1204922#post1204922)
I start to think you're an Indian, really, more and more you talk and make Indians sound like Angels.

Quote:
You're always defending the Indians, I start to think you don't have relatives who are Asians, I honestly believe you are an Indian.

Quote:
I am convinced now you're an Indian who hates Muslims.
To be honest I couldn't care less what you really are.

zarah

20-08-2009, 09:25 AM

islamvslizards

20-08-2009, 09:42 AM

islamvslizards

20-08-2009, 09:51 AM

I wouldn't suggest I'm knowledgeable on the Qur'an, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't discount the theory of life on other planets.

it doesnt sis, the quran doesnt mention ostriches or the duck billed platypus, this doesnt mean that its been "proven wrong" since they arent in the quran :)

surah fateha:

[1:2] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

tafsir by pooya/ali states:

By making Allah known as the rabbul alamin (lord of the worlds), Islam has disclosed the truth to mankind that He is the Lord of everything in the universe, be that human, animal, vegetable, mineral, perceptible or imperceptible, visible or invisible, near or far, in the earth or in the heavens, or in between them. With infinite power, able to do all things, the all-wise almighty creator of matter and meaning is a supreme sovereign in every aspect of His absolute authority. His independent will extends to and covers all kinds of the worlds created by Him.

The five "mystic" classifications of the worlds are as under:

1. Material or physical NASUT

2. Metaphysical MALAKUT

or supernatural

3. Spiritual JABARUT

4. Divine LAHUT

5. Imperceptible and unknowable GHAYBUL GHAYUB

allama tabatabeis tafsir goes into a lot more detail - his tafsir for the first 7 sentences of the quran fills an entire book, but to keep it short, he states:

"al-'Alamin" is the plural of al-'alam (the world) which literally means, "what one is known with." This paradigm is used for "instrument", like al-qalab (the mold, the form), al-khatam the seal, the instrument of sealing) and at-taba' (the stamp, the impress). The word al-'alam is used for the universe - the whole creation taken together. Also it is used for each genes or species taken separately, for example, the inorganic world, the vegetable world, the animal world, the human world. It is also used for a class of a species, like the Arab world, the African world etc. This last meaning is more appropriate in the context of these verses: The verses that enumerate the good names of Allah until they come to "the Master of the Day of Judgment." The judgment is reserved for mankind alone or together with the jinn. Therefore, the "worlds" should refer to the worlds of the human beings and the jinn, that is, their various groups. The word al'alamin (the worlds) has been used in this sense in other Qur'anic verses too. Allah says: ...and has chosen you above the women of the worlds (3:42);... so that he may be a warner to the worlds (25:1); What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the worlds has not done before you (7:80).

eternal_spirit

20-08-2009, 09:56 AM

Okay, but I didn't see anywhere him actually being horrid. I always thought Adbasque was either Asian or Middle Eastern...I always thought you had blonde hair and I always thought Picha was a girl...shows what thought did :p
LMAO :D It's okay, I'm often mistaken for a woman online only (of course)

Remember the first thread with me you and Adbasque and co LOL we made peace eventually, best to do the same again.

I am no intellectual with degrees in English etc. My school days ended early didn't all the cool kids get expelled? back in the day.

The irony is I never came to this forum to discuss religion as much as I have. Can't see myself ever converting either, I see far too many flaws in religion. But have interest in the topics and varietys of interpretations, beliefs and opinions.

Religion with it's many faces that have come and gone seems to have been part of human's history, it's true there's records dating back thousands of years that claims to prove this.

But we don't know for certain how old and what was the first religion. Alot of guessing and theorys, just how far back in time does religion go? It may be a fairly recent invention considering some have made estimates that humans have been on earth fro 50 to 60,000 years.

The best kept records of human civilisation and their history are probably from the Sumerians 5 to 6,000 years BC. Other countrys/cultures historys claim to be older, but what's true?

Hell we don't even know what happened from the 4th century to the 8th Century AD in Britain known as the "Dark Ages.

So how on earth do we get all this history that dates back further in time 100/s of thousands of year or whatever.
Much of history could well be myths and inventions.

adbasque

20-08-2009, 11:34 AM

Some parts of the world history was recorded and kept intact
Some other parts they kept records but they've been distorted or altered.

In some areas history was not recorded but it was passed on from generation to generation.

I don't personally believe humans have been on earth more than 12 000 years
but I could be wrong of course.

That doesn't mean other life forms didn't exist, man was not the first to exist on earth, for instance the Qu'ran gives an indication that life did exist before mankind. i.e the Dinosaurs and so on.

adbasque

20-08-2009, 11:49 AM

Come off it LOL I was replying to him having a LOL. he always said he was a white English man who converted to Islam, he doesn't believe who I say I am so for a lol, look what he said haha :D I thought I'd play him at his own game. PS I was reading Icke when he brought out his first books.

This started way back, when you first said this "My" country and as a Muslim I should go back to my country, wherever that is :rolleyes:

That's the first time I ever said who I am, I said to you this is my country and I have no other countries to go back to.

To me this is hardly an issue, I don't really care what a person looks like, or where they are from.
And for the record I have received several messages from other members who believe you're in fact an Indian.

As I said that's not an issue, what matters is how we conduct ourselves regardless of our backgrounds, colour, religion, creed etc etc..

adbasque

20-08-2009, 12:16 PM

Before anyone po-poes this story as utter nonsense, lets not forget that the flood was described in the Sumerian texts before the bible and lets not forget that Abraham came from Ur which was in Sumer, where the rivers Tigress and Euphrates met - where the biblical 'Garden of Eden' was said to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

Abraham came from Sumeria and it is surely not simply coincidence that the bible reflects some of the Sumerian writings. But of course, religion tries to hide this, especially in Islam (which came later) where it says that Abraham came from somewhere else.

John your history book seem to go back as far as Ibrahim (Abraham) and that's it!

What about all the other prophets before him?
The flood was during Noah's life (PBUH).

The only problem with this, is that they still can't provide any evidence to substantiate this theory, The Bible, The Qu'ran all have evidence what was and what's coming.

Having said that, you're free to believe what you want, but to me this utter nonsense until someone can prove me wrong.
You don't share Sichin's theories because he was caught lying, right?
The questions that were put to him, are also put to anyone who shares this nonsense with him.

Sorry to burst you bubble but this is an utter nonsense.

Ok they came here right?
They have super technology to create us and use our world and so on, and yet they couldn't provide us with any high tech means to build the monuments like the Pyramids?

They have all that technology and it took us thousands of years to get to where we are today as far as technology is concerned?

This was designed or should I say revived by some people to mislead the masses away from the truth.

I suggest you look into it more closely.

mrerisian

20-08-2009, 12:53 PM

They have super technology to create us and use our world and so on, and yet they couldn't provide us with any high tech means to build the monuments like the Pyramids?

Do you think the pyramids were built WITHOUT advanced technology? How do you suggest they did that? There are many archeologists who will be pleased to hear you've sussed that mystery out. Don't just post your evidence here, send it off to Oxbridge.

adbasque

20-08-2009, 01:23 PM

Do you think the pyramids were built WITHOUT advanced technology? How do you suggest they did that? There are many archeologists who will be pleased to hear you've sussed that mystery out. Don't just post your evidence here, send it off to Oxbridge.

I never claimed to have any evidence either way, but why don't you tell us how they built them?

Of course they must've had some kind of technology, but advanced I doubt it.

If it was that advanced how come hundreds if not thousands perished?
I hardly call this an advanced technology.
It was mainly the work of the slaves.

islamvslizards

20-08-2009, 01:36 PM

Do you think the pyramids were built WITHOUT advanced technology? How do you suggest they did that? There are many archeologists who will be pleased to hear you've sussed that mystery out. Don't just post your evidence here, send it off to Oxbridge.

if i can just pitch my oar in here, there is a difference between "advanced" technology, and "lost" technology. personally, i believe the ancient people had a better understanding of physics and wave technology, wheras we base absolutely everything on one particular energy - electrical. because they did not use electrical energy, our minds cannot comprehend how they did it.

this is not the same as being influenced by aliens tho. i have yet to see this theory talked about by anyone uninfluenced by zacharias sitchins nonsense.

to be fair, if we apply the standards that many of you use to ridicule the religious, we see that by those standards you need to ridicule your own beliefs, as they are just as valid/invalid as the religious ones.

adbasque

20-08-2009, 02:11 PM

if i can just pitch my oar in here, there is a difference between "advanced" technology, and "lost" technology. personally, i believe the ancient people had a better understanding of physics and wave technology, wheras we base absolutely everything on one particular energy - electrical. because they did not use electrical energy, our minds cannot comprehend how they did it.

this is not the same as being influenced by aliens tho. i have yet to see this theory talked about by anyone uninfluenced by zacharias sitchins nonsense.

to be fair, if we apply the standards that many of you use to ridicule the religious, we see that by those standards you need to ridicule your own beliefs, as they are just as valid/invalid as the religious ones.

This is also another way to undermine the human race and their capabilities.
To create doubts even amongst some (religion) believers.

How stupid is this to even consider that some Aliens out there have made from some kind of DNA manipulation, and yet they are hiding from us, if they had that power to create us, why would they hide?

Surely if they were that advanced and powerful, they shouldn't have to worry, if a man created a super powerful computer he should have some ways of switching it off, if it suddenly becomes hostile.

This is theory is an utter nonsense, and the more you look into it, the worst it gets, because it's all based on a big lie and for you out there who believe religion is a deception, and yet you're right smack in the middle of a real one.

What really pisses me off, that nobody ever produced any evidence to support this nonsense.
I can't believe people now make truth out of theories and reject anything else that has any common sense.

islamvslizards

20-08-2009, 02:16 PM

daseem

20-08-2009, 02:26 PM

Do you think the pyramids were built WITHOUT advanced technology? How do you suggest they did that? There are many archeologists who will be pleased to hear you've sussed that mystery out. Don't just post your evidence here, send it off to Oxbridge.

Maybe it was this super technology or something similar: I dont know who to embed video :|

Building Stonehenge - This Man can Move Anything - YouTube

adbasque

20-08-2009, 02:34 PM

the whole DNA thing is farcical. if they were at the ability to manipulate and mix DNA with apes...then why didnt they just manipulate their own DNA so they didnt need gold or whatever?

i could literally write pages and pages on just why this theory is not to be relied on, but i understand that a lot of people here adhere to zacharias sitchin religiously so im just going to hold my tongue. if it works for them, then good luck to them, i just wish they would stop arrogantly attacking islam even though they are in the same boat.

Exactly, if people want to believe in this theory or any other theory, they are free to do so, but let us believe in what we know is a reality and not a theory.

They are not just attacking Islam though, but anything to do with religion, God, Prophets and so on..

Not only they attack our belief, but they also try and ridicule us, although I am still waiting for anyone to come forward and show me some evidence of what we believe is wrong.
Tangible evidence not pictures, and hearsay.

If they're happy to believe in reptiles, aliens r anything else for that matter it's their business, but don't come here and insult us and try and impose your nonsense on us.

What's funny is they all seem to reject religion and somehow it's their favourite subject.

start a thread and put in it God, religion, Allah, Jesus, etc.. you'll see how lng before it's flooded by the religion haters.

:D
Strange, I can only come to one conclusion is there's something lacking in their lives and they don't realise it.

There's a thread about reptiles, I don't believe in reptiles, I probably commented once or twice on that thread.

Weird stuff going on

adbasque

20-08-2009, 02:42 PM

Maybe it was this super technology or something similar: I dont know who to embed video :|

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0

Very interesting indeed!
Thanks for the clip

lottie

20-08-2009, 02:44 PM

strange, i can only come to one conclusion is there's something lacking in their lives and they don't realise it.

PMSL!!! :d :d :d

adbasque

20-08-2009, 04:14 PM

PMSL!!! :d :d :d

I like your sig :D

picha

20-08-2009, 04:40 PM

Nonie Darwish, an ex-Muslim and author of the superb book on Sharia, Cruel and Usual Punishment, comments on the Rifqa Bary case: "Former Muslims need protection now from the US government and court system. We need protection from Sharia Islamic Law."

In spite of the clear danger to the life of Muslims who leave Islam, both the legal system and mainstream media still don’t get it. The most recent case in the US of the 17-year old girl, Rifqa Bary, is an example. US courts need proof (even though it is clearly stated in Islamic law books) that Islamic Law condemn apostates to death and encourage any Muslim on the street, even family members, to kill them. Western media does not seem to be interested in the topic. That is the same media that dedicates weeks of valuable air time to ridiculous claims of human rights violations only to certain privileged groups in America.
Ms. Bary, Muslim convert to Christianity, had good instincts when she realized the great danger to her life and escaped from her home in Ohio and sought protection from the Christian community in Orlando Florida. If she had not escaped, she could have been yet another statistic of Muslims killed for leaving Islam.

I will keep writing articles and books on the topic of Muslim Law, Sharia, until
the West fully understand that threat to their way of life and that Islamic Sharia and democracy cannot co-exist. The following are some laws on apostasy in mainstream Sharia books:
1- Apostates are to be given three days to repent and return to Islam. If s/he refuses, s/he is immediately killed. All Sharia books agree unanimously on this point. (Hanafi law in general, Shafi’i law f1.3, Hanbali law (from Al Mughni), Maliki law and Codified Islamic law).
2- It is obligarory for the califph to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
3- There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die)
4- Testimony of apostates is not admissible.
5- An apostate does not inherit from Muslim parents.
6- Marriage of an apostate is immediately dissolved if the spouse is and remains Muslim.

The above laws have kept Muslims enslaved inside the iron curtain of the Islamic State under penalty of death for 1400 years and counting. Laws encouraging the killing of non-Mulims, especially those who left Islam, also extend to non-Muslim nations and not just individuals. According to Sharia, non-Muslim nations are invited to convert to Islam and if they refuse a jihad war must begin. The commandment to wage violent wars against non-Muslim countries was given a pretty name by Sharia; jihad became a sacred duty for every Muslim head of State and individual.

It is astounding how many Muslims have been desensitized to feeling of any sympathy or guilt toward murdered victims of apostasy laws and jihad. In Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc, the majority of the population believe that apostates must be killed and that jihad against non-Muslim countries a badge of honor. I do not want to see the same desensitization happen in the West, but the silence of Western media is deafening.

The US government must protect its citizens not only from the terrorism of jihad, but also from Islamic Laws condemning Muslims to death and encouraging vigilante street justice.

How can a former Muslim like Rifqa, or like myself, live in peace in America when there are neighborhood mosques reading scriptures, to their believers telling them to kill Muslims who left the religion?. Even if 10% of Muslims in America follow Sharia as it is taught, we are in trouble. Muslim scriptures such as the Sahih hadith by Mohammad 9:50 states: “No Umma (a member of the Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kaffir (an infidel). . . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.”

There is no peace for the apostate, not even in the West. The above threat is real and will increase exponentially with the growth of the Muslim population and those who demand Sharia as a religious right. No religion should give the right to its followers to kill others, period.

Former Muslims need protection now from the US government and court system. We need protection from Sharia Islamic Law.

picha

20-08-2009, 04:41 PM

lottie

20-08-2009, 04:42 PM

I like your sig :D

;)

adbasque

20-08-2009, 05:17 PM

I can *Yawn too** can anyone tell me if they can Yawn ?

adbasque

20-08-2009, 05:19 PM

;)

Can you yawn lottie?

mrerisian

20-08-2009, 09:01 PM

this is not the same as being influenced by aliens tho. i have yet to see this theory talked about by anyone uninfluenced by zacharias sitchins nonsense.

In that case you should look into 'Chariots of Gods' by Eric Von Daniken. His work is awesome.

adbasque

20-08-2009, 11:01 PM

Sorry Van Daniken is a fake, he has been exposed on several occasions.

He sells his books made his fortune out of ignorants.

Von Däniken claimed that a non-rusting iron pillar in India was evidence of extraterrestrial influence.[2] However, he admitted in a Playboy interview that the pillar was actually rusty and man-made, and that as far as supporting his hypotheses goes "we can forget about this iron thing

Most historians regard Von Däniken's claims as pseudoscience, and are of the opinion that he is drawing far-reaching conclusions from little evidence, and he is disregarding more likely alternative hypotheses, but a large group of followers, some of whom have written books of their own, are of the opinion that his theories are likely to be true.

Furthermore, some have accused von Däniken of European ethnocentrism[4] and suggested that views such as his "constitute the ultimate in racism".[5]

Ronald Story published The Space Gods Revealed in 1976, providing an almost page-by-page refutation of the hypotheses and evidence in von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods?.

adbasque

20-08-2009, 11:15 PM

What is the history of our earth-moon system? ". . . a satellite was captured by the earth. As it was pulled toward the earth it slowed down the speed of the earth's revolutions. It finally disintegrated and was replaced by the moon." (p. 19)

Proof of this theory, he writes, can be found in the symbols on the Great Idol in the Old Temple at Tiahuanaco, one of his favorite archeological Wonders. Supposedly this message, dating back 27,000 years, tells of how this satellite emeritus made 425 revolutions around the earth a year, which was then only 288 days.

If the earth formerly circled the sun every 288 days, Kepler's third law implies that the earth must have been at that time much closer to the sun, almost where Venus is now. Are we expected to believe that during the great Ice Ages the earth was some twenty million miles closer to the sun than it is today? On the other hand, if the year remained unchanged but each day is shorter, we are faced with another difficulty: since the year is now 365 days, the earth's rotation is faster than in 25,000 B.C., not slower as Von Daniken claims. How could a satellite slowly spiraling earthward pull both earth and satellite farther away from the sun? Where are the fragments of this disintegrated moon, and where did our current moon come from? Von Daniken gives no answers.

More on this Charlatan

On ancient Egyptian astronomy: " ... why a Sirius calendar? . . . If Sirius appeared on the horizon at dawn at the same time as the Nile flood, it was pure coincidence ... this very interest in Sirius seems rather peculiar because seen from Memphis, Sirius can be observed only in the early dawn just above the horizon when the Nile floods begin." (p.64-65)Reader, beware - we're dealing with one who knows the art of deception! Sirius, he neglects to mention, is the brightest star in the sky.

His claim that Sirius was hardly visible at all to the Egyptians is simply false. Sirius, in fact, is visible from anywhere on earth except the extreme North Polar region, and observers in Egypt see that star higher in the sky than we do here in the northern United States, where it dominates the sky on crisp winter evenings.

Check the rest Here (http://www.debunker.com/texts/vondanik.html)

mrerisian

20-08-2009, 11:49 PM

Sorry Van Daniken is a fake, he has been exposed on several occasions.

"Von Däniken claimed that a non-rusting iron pillar in India was evidence of extraterrestrial influence.[2] However, he admitted in a Playboy interview that the pillar was actually rusty and man-made, and that as far as supporting his hypotheses goes "we can forget about this iron thing"

No, he is capable of admitting his mistakes. That's a sign of strength, not weakness. Would you be able to admit you're wrong?

islamvslizards

21-08-2009, 09:44 AM

2:6 Muhsin Khan: Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
2:7 Muhsin Khan: Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

Can anyone else see how absurd those two verses are? It looks like its saying allah has done something to non believers which has made them incapable of believing in him and hes going to punish them severely for it, even though its obviously not their fault they dont believe.

firstly, take a look at who these two ayats are referring to:

from tabatabeis tafsir:

Probably it refers to the disbelievers of Quraysh, who were the bitterest enemies of Islam and who did try their utmost to extinguish the light of faith; they persisted stubbornly in their enmity until Allah destroyed them in Badr and other battles. The sentence, "alike is it to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe", strengthens this interpretation; because it could not be applied to all the disbeliever of the world . Also, this same sentence has come in Chapter of Ya Sin (36:10) which is a Meccan chapter. Then it appears in this chapter that is the first chapter revealed at Medina. (It was revealed before the battle of Badr.) Therefore, more probably this verse also refers to the same Meccan group. In other places too the same explanation may be given to the word, "those who disbelieve", unless there is a reason to the contrary.

Likewise, wherever the word, "those who believe", has been used in the Qur'an it refers to the first and early Muslims - unless there is any reason to believe otherwise. This style of address was reserved for them as a protocol of honor.

so what do we learn from this passage?

- this is referring to the pre-emigration meccan quraysh, notorious persecutors of the early muslims
- it is not referring to all disbelievers everywhere, ever born, until judgement day, forever and ever amen.
- there are levels and stages of the people who tried to kill/ torture the prophet and early muslims, some who had polite disagreements, some who repeatedly tried to kill the prophet and his followers.
- allah did not "set a seal on their hearts" until they reached the utter peak of hatred and inhumanity. before this there was always the opportunity for them to leave the muslims in peace. for an example look how they tortured the elderly parents of ammar e yassir, or how they tortured bilal al habashi, or how their women ripped and ate the livers of the fallen muslims in battle.

to further highlight these ayats tafsir, lets look at the tafsir by pooya/ali

Sealing of the disbelievers' hearts, who make a willing choice of the life of sin, is a happening in the usual course. Lack of proper use of the faculties of discernment and understanding blunts their judgement and reasonableness, a logical penalty, referred to in verse 179 of al Araf, and verse 5 of Ha Mim, wherein they themselves bear witness to the penalty they had been inflicted with. According to the commentator of Majma ul Bayan, seal means witness or testimony.

Allah bears witness to the loss of usefulness of the disbelievers' faculties to see, hear and understand,

in order to inform the Holy Prophet that all attempts, howsoever sincere and eager, will fail to bring them back to the right path, as they are unable to pay attention to any type of warning.

so what does this mean?

- once people have a habit of not listening to reason or decency, it becomes second nature to them to be inhumane.
- only once they have reached a certain level of evil, thats when the doors of repentence and mercy are closed for them.

finally, i suggest you read the very next sentence picha.

[2.8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.

what do you think of this?

islamvslizards

21-08-2009, 09:44 AM

No, he is capable of admitting his mistakes. That's a sign of strength, not weakness. Would you be able to admit you're wrong?

im afraid the evidence is pretty staggering in favour of him being a total fraud.

tjohn

21-08-2009, 12:48 PM

Ok, it's a long story but I will try to summarise the best I can. Over many thousands of years beings from other worlds have indeed visited our planet! The bible is in fact partly to do with that story, as earlier texts are, some of which are repeated in the bible - but the bible distorts and hides many details.

Some of those who came here were known as the Anunnaki which word is equivalent to the plural Hebrew word, Elohim (or Elohym) - however, religious teachers would have us believe otherwise.

When the Anunnaki came here they needed food - and gold but not so much gold in it's metallic form. Monoatomic gold can be made from metallic gold and lo! there's metallic gold on the Earth! So they set their 'lower' ranks to work in the fields for food and in the mines for gold (if you have done your study you should know this already).

However, I do not accept Sitchin's interpretation of them literally coming from planet X nor from Nibiru, for the simple reason that planet X is for most of the time so far away from the Sun that it's frozen so solid that it cannot support life. On the other hand, some say that planet X is a red dwarf (star) and again, no life can exist on such an object! Therefore, I conclude that 'Nibiru' is symbolic as is the 'atmosphere' of gold. Gold in monoatomic form, helps connect the brain so we can have a different 'atmosphere' of thinking.

I have taken small amounts of monoatomic gold and I cannot afford to buy more but I do know that it does make a difference. So that is, in my opinion, why that Anunnaki were in search of gold... because it gave them the ability to think more clearly than they would otherwise.

They came here and found food and gold but the workers decided that they had enough! So to solve the problem, a guy called Enki (or En.Ki.) and his sister came up with a 'bright' idea! The idea was to use early ape-man to do the work instead but he would need more intellect to work in the fields and mines. So one of the Anunnaki was bled and his genes were mixed with early 'ape' man to make the new creature, modern humans. (This BTW is why Darwin evolutionists are still looking for the 'missing link')

It says in the Bible "let us make man in our image and likeness" - the image being the body and the likeness being the thinking qualities of the Anunnaki/Elohim (at least to an extent). However the 'gods' did not want us to think too much for ourselves and this is part of the reason why we have religion which hides the truth.

Before anyone po-poes this story as utter nonsense, lets not forget that the flood was described in the Sumerian texts before the bible and lets not forget that Abraham came from Ur which was in Sumer, where the rivers Tigress and Euphrates met - where the biblical 'Garden of Eden' was said to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

Abraham came from Sumeria and it is surely not simply coincidence that the bible reflects some of the Sumerian writings. But of course, religion tries to hide this, especially in Islam (which came later) where it says that Abraham came from somewhere else.

where did you learn this from?From a lifetime of study and thinking, instead of letting religion do the thinking for me all the time. :rolleyes:

islamvslizards

21-08-2009, 01:05 PM

From a lifetime of study and thinking, instead of letting religion do the thinking for me all the time. :rolleyes:

nevertheless, im sure you didnt come up with all of those ideas yourself. what are the main scholars/ books/ websites that influenced your beliefs? its a simple request

adbasque

21-08-2009, 03:49 PM

No, he is capable of admitting his mistakes. That's a sign of strength, not weakness. Would you be able to admit you're wrong?

Of course I would, if I am proven wrong, but this is not because he was proven wrong, is that all you could read?
He was caught red-handed making things up, did you read where his book was refuted for almost page by page?

I never said admitting is a weakness, a lot of people have proved him to be a charlatan.
Anyway he is not the first and he certainly won't be the last to try and make a living out of people's total ignorance.

tjohn

22-08-2009, 03:16 AM

nevertheless, im sure you didnt come up with all of those ideas yourself. what are the main scholars/ books/ websites that influenced your beliefs? its a simple requestPass. :p

tannah

22-08-2009, 03:51 AM

Strange stuff islamvslizards. You say this at the end of one of your posts:

- once people have a habit of not listening to reason or decency, it becomes second nature to them to be inhumane.
- only once they have reached a certain level of evil, thats when the doors of repentence and mercy are closed for them

But earlier in the post you quoted this stuff:

Probably it refers to the disbelievers of Quraysh, who were the bitterest enemies of Islam and who did try their utmost to extinguish the light of faith; they persisted stubbornly in their enmity until Allah destroyed them in Badr and other battles. The sentence, "alike is it to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe", strengthens this interpretation; because it could not be applied to all the disbeliever of the world . Also, this same sentence has come in Chapter of Ya Sin (36:10) which is a Meccan chapter. Then it appears in this chapter that is the first chapter revealed at Medina. (It was revealed before the battle of Badr.) Therefore, more probably this verse also refers to the same Meccan group. In other places too the same explanation may be given to the word, "those who disbelieve", unless there is a reason to the contrary.

Likewise, wherever the word, "those who believe", has been used in the Qur'an it refers to the first and early Muslims - unless there is any reason to believe otherwise. This style of address was reserved for them as a protocol of honor.

Another God actively doing the killing for you? That makes Allah and Jehovah. Who's the biggest killer of unbeleivers then, in your opinion? And do you see these two Gods clashing any time soon?

tjohn

22-08-2009, 03:54 AM

OK then, adbasque & islamvslizards. There are only a few books I have read all the way through and have studied in great detail and the main one is the Bible. Von Däniken's book The Chariots of the Gods is IMHO mostly rubbish; mostly that is, because the tiny bits of truth therein confirm what I already knew. It was quite entertaining to see that he mistakes aircraft (and rockets) for interstellar spacecraft. Even so, I know that there is some truth to his general theory that ETs came to this Earth but I dare not tell you why, you would only insult me and say I am crazy. Then if you do that, by the same token, I would say that your prophet was crazy. OK? Well, I know he was anyway. :p

islamvslizards

22-08-2009, 03:29 PM

Another God actively doing the killing for you? That makes Allah and Jehovah. Who's the biggest killer of unbeleivers then, in your opinion? And do you see these two Gods clashing any time soon?

i do not understand your question. please can you elaborate?

islamvslizards

22-08-2009, 03:31 PM

islamvslizards

22-08-2009, 03:34 PM

tjohn i find it very interesting how evasive and philosophical you have suddenly become, when it is your beliefs which have now been put under the spotlight. im pleased to say myself, adbasque and others have met head on all levels of challenges from you and others. why is it that now that we are looking at your beliefs, you suddenly do not want to talk about them? are you scared what will happen when we apply the same critisism to your beliefs, as you feebly attemped to do for ours?

tjohn

22-08-2009, 05:47 PM

yet you and others have demanded answers to your relentless questions/ attacks on islam, which we have provided freely and patiently? why do you not return the favour? You have not been honest with us. All you can do is quote from your religion - to 'prove' your religion!

Hello??? !

Other times you have simply ignored reasonable arguments and criticisms.

Sorry but I cannot help but think you are a bigot or a shill or both.

tjohn i find it very interesting how evasive and philosophical you have suddenly become, when it is your beliefs which have now been put under the spotlight. It is your beliefs that are under the spotlight rather than mine, and as always you are evasive of the facts. In regard to being philosophical, I have always been such but you did not notice it because of your religious pride.

Do you need a hug human brother?

im pleased to say myself, adbasque and others have met head on all levels of challenges from you and others. Noo.. you have not in any way met head on with the challenges presented to you! Why are you trying to turn the table???

why is it that now that we are looking at your beliefs, you suddenly do not want to talk about them? are you scared what will happen when we apply the same critisism to your beliefs, as you feebly attemped to do for ours?Your prophet, the story goes, was visited by an angel. If I or someone else claimed such a thing, why should you (apart from your religious bigotry) believe your prophet's scribbles above mine or someone else?

My 'belief' is that everything in the Universe is made of information and that includes what we perceive as 'good' or 'bad' - i.e. what we find comfortable or not. So because the Universe is made of information that has structure and logic (wouldn't be real information otherwise), I am saying that there is indeed a Mind, or God.

However, your god and the Hebrew god, I discover is only a small part of the whole and your god (and the Hebrew god) is an imposter!

My God does not impose specific rules of religion because my God is the Mind of the Universe, with the Universe itself being the manifestation of that unfathomable Mind - while on this very tiny planet we are a very, very, tiny part of the whole of the manifestation of that Mind.

You and religious people like you in your narrow thinking, would have us believe that Allah or YHWH is the God of all, while you claim that God is a He and while you claim that 'He' made us all - yet (actually described as "We" in your own book) in 'His' perfection which you presume, 'He' destroys whole nations which 'He' created!

Sorry but the contradictions do not sound like a perfect God to me and I know for certain that there are 'gods' who are not GOD, nor do they claim to be.

Please don't let your eyes glaze over when you read the above - the truth is inside us.