Is Islam Hated from ignorance?

[free thinker]

OK :)

here is you comment



How do you get primitive man living in a cave to behave?

BULLSHIT THEM

Then you went on and said

ALL religions are - is bullshit, made up stories, adapted through the years to make it more credible,

Why don't you explain to me what you meant, instead, it would be much appreciated :) Lol

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..ding try again!:D

[adbasque]

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..ding try again!:D

Sorry mate, don't have time for this, whatever :)

[free thinker]

I will help you out....

Q. how do you get primitive humans who live in caves to behave?

A. BULLSHIT THEM!


Prehistoric primitive humans lived in caves, as things progressed and spark of civilisation began to ebb, someone realised that when thunder and lightening was going off everywhere, most people were running for the caves shitting themselves...all except the cleaver one who realised he could take the piss out of the scaredy cats.

Human nature is to ride other peoples backs, just ask any boss!

So, you see... you missed my point by a millennium, but thats OK.

fill in the spaces yourself...without the aid of a feckin BOOK!

[adbasque]

I will help you out....

Q. how do you get primitive humans who live in caves to behave?

A. BULLSHIT THEM!


Prehistoric primitive humans lived in caves, as things progressed and spark of civilisation began to ebb, someone realised that when thunder and lightening was going off everywhere, most people were running for the caves shitting themselves...all except the cleaver one who realised he could take the piss out of the scaredy cats.

Human nature is to ride other peoples backs, just ask any boss!

So, you see... you missed my point by a millennium, but thats OK.

fill in the spaces yourself...without the aid of a feckin BOOK!

But what I don't understand here, is why do you have to state the obvious about some people are being bullshitted etc..

Depends on which book you're referring to, many people get their information from a "Book" how did you know what you just stated above?
Were you present? Were you there? No, so you must have got it from somone who wrote that information down and it was then passed on to you?

Now, you believe any book except the one who might have come from your maker? What is the logic behind this?

You categorically reject a book simply because it's called a divine book, you're free to believe what you and to live your life as you want it.

But don't expect everyone else to believe in the same things as you.
I don't know if you get my meaning.

[eternal_spirit]

Problem is they are taught Shariah law is God's laws (Allah's laws) and that a society should be based on these laws found in the Koran and interpreted with Hadiths (which cause much disagreement between Muslim sects on how to apply the laws with Koran and Hadiths, example - Sunni and Shiites have disagreed and fought each other almost since the beginning of Islam (Although this is mostly to do with legitimate rulers related to Muhammed they disagree who is the rightful bloodline rulers)

Most if not all none Islamic modern day societies however are not run on laws found in any religious books.

[tjohn]

Oh I have just got to answer this one... But what I don't understand here, is why do you have to state the obvious about some people are being bullshitted etc..

Depends on which book you're referring to, many people get their information from a "Book" how did you know what you just stated above? Were you present? Were you there? .... Were you there, adbasque, duck?

[adbasque]

Oh I have just got to answer this one... Were you there, adbasque, duck?

No I wasn't present, I was replying to people like you who criticise my "Book" so I am asking you the same questions, or is it one rule for you and one for me?

If you question my Book I will question yours, that's the point I was making, again, maybe you needed the spelling of everything.

Meaning we all get our information from somewhere, none of us were present, it's called history, we either have to believe or we end up without one piece of history.

Feeling good now that you jumped on it?

[free thinker]

If you question my Book I will question yours, that's the point I was making, again, maybe you needed the spelling of everything.

Great, please do question the book, our book (i assume you mean the bible) i question it myself, thats why i came to the conclusion it's bullshit - a fable.

I refused to have my intelligence insulted, parting of the sea ,ect, ect.

....and my maker was my father/mother.

You are making an assumption that i frown upon you personally, wrong i dont even know you.

My only point was that many have followed a fairytale for most of their lives, thats my opinion based on my beliefs, gods, prophets, bishops, vicars ect, they have no value or bearing on my life, i have not been baptised, christened, i skipped religious education at school, and avoided it ever since...so please, spare me the devine book crap...you are pissing into the wind on this one my friend..virtually all human conflicts have religion at its core, hows that for history?:)

[majorion]

virtually all human conflicts have religion at its core, hows that for history?

That is because whoever created religion, whoever inspired all those texts, whoever relayed advanced knowledge and information to certain people from all over the world, whoever dictated to people how to live their lives and what to believe, or whoever stunned people with displays of magic and 'miracles', it was not the creator of the universe, it was someone else. IMHO.

There's no way that a deity who created the universe or multiverse as whole - would inspire hatred, promote disagreement, conflict, and war.

Whoever it was, quite malevolent they are indeed.

Best,
M

[tjohn]

No I wasn't present, I was replying to people like you who criticise my "Book" so I am asking you the same questions, or is it one rule for you and one for me?

If you question my Book I will question yours, that's the point I was making, again, maybe you needed the spelling of everything.

Meaning we all get our information from somewhere, none of us were present, it's called history, we either have to believe or we end up without one piece of history.

Feeling good now that you jumped on it?Of course we get our information from somewhere (even if we dream it!) but the difference is that I do not need to follow any Book or interpretation by Religious teachers. What does your Book say about infidels such as me that do not follow your Religion?
22:19-22 "But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron whenever in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." Oops! I did copy and paste from your Book. Am I, simply for being an infidel, going to Hell for not believing in the 'merciful' god as written in the Qur'an? Do you believe what your Book says?

[adbasque]

Great, please do question the book, our book (i assume you mean the bible) i question it myself, thats why i came to the conclusion it's bullshit - a fable.

No sorry I didn't mean the Bible at all, I meant any book where you get your information.


I refused to have my intelligence insulted, parting of the sea ,ect, ect.

....and my maker was my father/mother.

You are making an assumption that i frown upon you personally, wrong i dont even know you.

My only point was that many have followed a fairytale for most of their lives, thats my opinion based on my beliefs, gods, prophets, bishops, vicars ect, they have no value or bearing on my life, i have not been baptised, christened, i skipped religious education at school, and avoided it ever since...so please, spare me the devine book crap...you are pissing into the wind on this one my friend..virtually all human conflicts have religion at its core, hows that for history?:)

Example
Somebody wrote those books where you got this information about religion is at the core of every conflict.

I don't believe that I am sorry I have to disagree with you on this one, not every conflict has religion at its core.

In many cases "They" used religion for that specific reason, to make people hate religion, because they hate religion and it's the only way for them to get rid of it.

However, As I said before I am not here to impose my belief on anyone, everyone is free to believe what he/she want.

All I am asking for here is a mutual respect, to you is pissing the wind, to me I see something completely different, not only I see, but I know.
I can't go into any details at this moment and believe it or not I hate to discuss religion online, there's a lot to be said and I'd rather avoid it because it requires a heck of a lot typing, and it's not even worth it :)

[majorion]

Do you believe what your Book says?

Of course he believes what the book says.

If you're actual attempt is to have someone completely discard their belief from something he/she/they believe in so strongly, you are wasting your time, and for the last time mr. tjohn, you are going about it in a way that is only strengthening his faith more in what you are disputing, I'd say your influence is indefinitely counter productive. I wonder if that is your actual intention.

Why don't you try to present other possibilities, other theories, different explanations and shed some light from your perspective in a non-derogatory fashion. It's absolutely critical if you're really trying to reach out to someone.

It's obvious you believe that Islam and other religions are human fabrications to control what one thinks and feels, as well for political control. Why don't you try to prove that and take us all step by step with a thorough analysis, again, in a non-derogatory manner. :)

Best,
M

[adbasque]

That is because whoever created religion, whoever inspired all those texts, whoever relayed advanced knowledge and information to certain people from all over the world, whoever dictated to people how to live their lives and what to believe, or whoever stunned people with displays of magic and 'miracles', it was not the creator of the universe, it was someone else. IMHO.

There's no way that a deity who created the universe or multiverse as whole - would inspire hatred, promote disagreement, conflict, and war.

Whoever it was, quite malevolent they are indeed.

Best,
M
Exactly so :)
I will reply to your other comment, I haven't ignored it, I just need some time, please bear with me.

Thanks :)
Peace

[adbasque]

Of course we get our information from somewhere (even if we dream it!) but the difference is that I do not need to follow any Book or interpretation by Religious teachers. What does your Book say about infidels such as me that do not follow your Religion?
Oops! I did copy and paste from your Book. Am I, simply for being an infidel, going to Hell for not believing in the 'merciful' god as written in the Qur'an? Do you believe what your Book says?

John I have a suggestion for you, I am not here to explain to you every verse of the Qu'ran, do your own research and find out what that verse really means and who is it aimed at for instance??

Here's a starting point for you

Find out who he is referring to when he speaks of Disbelievers and Hypocrites too, and the "Mushrikeen"

Check them out and see what you can find out :)

[tjohn]

Of course he believes what the book says.

If you're actual attempt is to have someone completely discard their belief from something he/she/they believe in so strongly, you are wasting your time, and for the last time mr. tjohn, you are going about it in a way that is only strengthening his faith more in what you are disputing, I'd say your influence is indefinitely counter productive. I wonder if that is your actual intention.

Why don't you try to present other possibilities, other theories, different explanations and shed some light from your perspective in a non-derogatory fashion. It's absolutely critical if you're really trying to reach out to someone.

It's obvious you believe that Islam and other religions are human fabrications to control what one thinks and feels, as well for political control. Why don't you try to prove that and take us all step by step with a thorough analysis, again, in a non-derogatory manner. :)

Best,
MSorry about that majorion and I see you write some good stuff. We all have different styles of writing and I was simply trying to get him to think about the contradictions, whereas on the one hand his version of god is most merciful, yet on the other hand his book says people are going to hell when they don't believe.

I have put forward theories about the Universe itself and about creatures who inspired Religion and if you can do better I welcome it. If you wish I can shut up for a while, I have been on this thread mostly on my own for long enough. But I must admit it is very tempting sometimes when I see such blatent contradictions with Islam as a Religion and with what adbasque says. If you can put it in a more kindly manner that would be good - then this isn't about adbasque as an individual.

[adbasque]

Sorry about that majorion and I see you write some good stuff. We all have different styles of writing and I was simply trying to get him to think about the contradictions, whereas on the one hand his version of god is most merciful, yet on the other hand his book says people are going to hell when they don't believe.

Yes John some people will pay for what they did, now you're free to believe in ther things.
You John, see contradictions I Adbasque do not see any contradiction everything I have read and learnt from the Qu'ran makes pefect sense to me.


I have put forward theories about the Universe itself and about creatures who inspired Religion and if you can do better I welcome it. If you wish I can shut up for a while, I have been on this thread mostly on my own for long enough. But I must admit it is very tempting sometimes when I see such blatent contradictions with Islam as a Religion and with what adbasque says. If you can put it in a more kindly manner that would be good - then this isn't about adbasque as an individual.

Yes they are exactly what you just said, theories, if I believed for one second that the Qu'ran is a theory, I will not reply on it.

I do not believe in theories, theories will always be theories, I consider them as far as a theory goes, to me a Qu'ran is more than just a theory, if you spend a little time to try and understand it better you will be surprised how much you will learn, but because you assume that it's a book written by someone in a cave, and you glanced at a couple of things completely taken out of context and you presume that is what Qu'ran is.


Now may I remind you we are here to debate openly, like mature adults, to share information, don't assume you know what is good for me, and I'll do the same.

I never told you to drop what you believe in and become a Muslim, but it's the other way around.
If we can't agree we go our seperate ways without any personal attacks.

That is what you lacked of John, you attack everything that stands in your way, anything you don't like.

Remember, you're just a simple human being like myself and everybody else, you have no special powers or knowledge, why would I listen to you?

Now, can we assume here for a sec?? Can you do that?

Let's assume (I know it is) that the Qu'ran is truly the word of God (remember I don't have a single doubt)

Something happened that will prove to every human that is the word of ONE God.

And what's in it you either follow it or suffer the consequences, tell me what are you going to do? (remember you're under an assumption)

What are you going to do?

[tjohn]

Yes John some people will pay for what they did, now you're free to believe in ther things.
You John, see contradictions I Adbasque do not see any contradiction everything I have read and learnt from the Qu'ran makes pefect sense to me.

Yes they are exactly what you just said, theories, if I believed for one second that the Qu'ran is a theory, I will not reply on it.

I do not believe in theories, theories will always be theories, I consider them as far as a theory goes, to me a Qu'ran is more than just a theory, if you spend a little time to try and understand it better you will be surprised how much you will learn, but because you assume that it's a book written by someone in a cave, and you glanced at a couple of things completely taken out of context and you presume that is what Qu'ran is.

Now may I remind you we are here to debate openly, like mature adults, to share information, don't assume you know what is good for me, and I'll do the same.

I never told you to drop what you believe in and become a Muslim, but it's the other way around.
If we can't agree we go our seperate ways without any personal attacks.

That is what you lacked of John, you attack everything that stands in your way, anything you don't like.

Remember, you're just a simple human being like myself and everybody else, you have no special powers or knowledge, why would I listen to you?

Now, can we assume here for a sec?? Can you do that?

Let's assume (I know it is) that the Qu'ran is truly the word of God (remember I don't have a single doubt)

Something happened that will prove to every human that is the word of ONE God.

And what's in it you either follow it or suffer the consequences, tell me what are you going to do? (remember you're under an assumption)

What are you going to do?
Well, I am tempted to respond and (relatively) respectfully respond as thus:

In scientific terms a theory is still called a theory when proved by experiment or even through logic alone. As you know, I do have a theory about God and the Universe and I came to my conclusions mostly through logical thinking rather than believing what is written in Books such as yours.

Your Mohammed was a man just as I am a man (but I gather he did worse things than I have) and I have dreams and visions of 'angels' too. So who are the 'angels'? They are not GOD (or at least not the whole) - so you put your trust (faith) in the word of those creatures because your Religion and your Book says so? If I were to write a book about what I understand, why would you believe Mohammed more than what I wrote?

Answer:
Your Religion, which is a means of manipulation and control over millions of people; yet at the same time, you would claim that your god is perfect and the God of all! ... the most merciful 'God' you would tell me, that through 'his' ("We" in the Qur'an) wisdom must have made a mistake in creating us so 'he' has to correct 'his' mistake in creating us?!

So you threaten me with the "consequences" of not believing your version of God, which very politely put implies that you might be thinking I will go to a mythical Hell because I do not believe the same as you do.

John
P.S. As a human I love you but I do not love the deception of Religion.

[bendoon]

virtually all human conflicts have religion at its core, hows that for history?:)

Rubbish.


Name some wars caused by religion ?

Wars are always fought over land and/or resources, sometimes the rulers use religion to trick the masses into going along but even then thats in a minority of cases. You would have to go back a long time in history to find a war caused by religion.

[mrerisian]

Rubbish.


Name some wars caused by religion ?



Yeh, I'm no fan of religion but the ol' all wars are caused by religion thing is bollocks.

Iraq - nope. Afganistan - nope. Vietnam - nope. WWII - nope.

Etc.

[eternal_spirit]

Yeh, I'm no fan of religion but the ol' all wars are caused by religion thing is bollocks.

Iraq - nope. Afganistan - nope. Vietnam - nope. WWII - nope.

Etc.
If a country's population is predominatly of one religion and goes to war, then religion can be tied in with this, although that does not mean it is the religion that caused the war.

Although Iraq and other places in that part of the world has had infighting between Muslims of different sects for many centuries.

[eternal_spirit]

The words of the Koran to believers was given to Muhammad by God via angel Gabriel (the messenger)

To me it's just another unprovable theory, even the believers are basing their belief on faith, which is not proof and nothing to do with a one God creator passing on messages to Muhammed, although they'd argue till the end of time trying to prove otherwise.

I've read he was an epileptic who had episodes and would fall into trance/sleep. The voices in his head and his visions may well have been dreams or hallucinations considering his condition.

Plus people fast from food, that and lack of sleep can cause hallucinations that are often passed off and believed to be contact with spirit and mystical experiences (not to mention drugs/herbs etc) Try it there's a good chance you'll be communicating with angels/spirits etc. But remember it may all be hallucination and illusions. Just like Muhammad's experiences where.

[eternal_spirit]

The bad outweighs the good (from what I've seen of the Koran) therfore an evil being/spirit may have appeared pretending to be Angel Gabriel and dictated the Koran for men to be subserviant to this being/spirit.

[eternal_spirit]

Shariah laws = God's laws (Allah)
What kind of a God would make up such laws? Not one I'd want to worship and follow it's instructions for sure.

It's more likely some men got together and wrote the Koran as a means to control their people.
And the same family bloodlines pass themselves off as Muhammad's relatives as rightful rulers of Islam. What a con game.

[stfd]

Is that you in the picture?

[eternal_spirit]

Is that you in the picture?
You never seen George Doors before? I don't know his real name (Matt Lucas?)
Great comedian imo. Appears in Little Britiain and Shooting Stars.

[tannah]

The bad outweighs the good (from what I've seen of the Koran) therfore an evil being/spirit may have appeared pretending to be Angel Gabriel and dictated the Koran for men to be subserviant to this being/spirit.

Well the likelihood of that being the case isn't too far fetched. With hearts closed man is easy picking. Nothing can replace the true Word that is in the heart, and TPB always slam the door shut to it. Priests have always known how to carve a nice career for themselves too.

[bendoon]

therfore an evil being/spirit may have appeared pretending to be Angel Gabriel and dictated the Koran for men to be subserviant to this being/spirit. .

Thats true, only Satan would want people to do this;

http://images.lightstalkers.org/images/232771/Muslims-at-prayer-during-Ramzan.jpg

Contrast this with what Jesus Christ said about praying.


Matthew 6:5-8 (NIV)
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

[majorion]

I've read he was an epileptic who had episodes and would fall into trance/sleep. The voices in his head and his visions may well have been dreams or hallucinations considering his condition.

Well I have to say, for a person who was allegedly only hallucinating voices, he sure got the words inscribed with remarkable detail even though he is said to be an illiterate, and his legacy continues to inspire millions of people till this day, more than 1400 years later. Doesn't really sound like the work of a madman.

The bad outweighs the good (from what I've seen of the Koran) therfore an evil being/spirit may have appeared pretending to be Angel Gabriel and dictated the Koran for men to be subserviant to this being/spirit.

Do I detect a "Angel Gabriel is real but only in Christianity"?

"Angel" Gabriel is a real entity, but he was not an angel with a halo and a 100 mile wingspan, he was/is an extraterrestrial, they had their mile wide space craft flying in the sky, sometimes they'd make contact with different people around the world and take them for wonderful rides and show them some fantastic stuff, that's about the only possible way these things would make a lick of sense in modern terms.

Gabriel is the one who is directly responsible for teaching Mohammed the texts, not by virtue of 'magically' seeding the scripture in his head, but by means of Telepathy.

Gabriel is described in some accounts as having appeared a nordic blue eyed blond haired humanoid. Sounds a lot like a nordic extraterrestrial species to me. :)

Best,
M

[adbasque]

Well, I am tempted to respond and (relatively) respectfully respond as thus:

In scientific terms a theory is still called a theory when proved by experiment or even through logic alone. As you know, I do have a theory about God and the Universe and I came to my conclusions mostly through logical thinking rather than believing what is written in Books such as yours.

Two things here
1) I am sorry a theory is a theory once it has been proved it becomes a fact.
It is not at all the same thing, if it is called a theory is because it has not been proven to be a fact.

2) You keep on and on about this book, you get your information from a far less reliable books and "Auhors" which you don't know half of their real intentions for writing whatever you're reading.

I like the way you keep talking about logical thinking, what do you think we do?
Everybody has a logical way of working out things in life, do you know that?
That's what I do John, I work out facts I use logic just like everybody else.

To be honest it's your ignorance and a lot of assumption that keeps you in the dark



Your Mohammed was a man just as I am a man (but I gather he did worse things than I have) and I have dreams and visions of 'angels' too. So who are the 'angels'? They are not GOD (or at least not the whole) - so you put your trust (faith) in the word of those creatures because your Religion and your Book says so? If I were to write a book about what I understand, why would you believe Mohammed more than what I wrote?


Let me first point out how disrespectful and arrogant you are towards me and my religion.
Why do you have to use the "Your Mohammed" this is a sign of resentfulness and despise and it's extremely impolite to talk that way, I had to point it out, because you have done it once too often.

Now, Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes John, Mohammed (PBUH) was a MAN he died and it's all over, Mohamed did not ask to worship him, he asked to worship God.

Yes you're a man John, he is a Prophet and you're not :)

I do put my whole trust in that book, yes, because I have my reasons and my own reasons, No John I will not trust you nor your book, unless you can provide evidence that you are indeed a messenger from God.

Those creatures are the Angels, Angels are NOT, remember this they are NOT God, Humans are NOT God, Jinns are not God, only God is God.

Please don't talk to me about this "Whole" business again, there's one entity he is God, now you want to believe in Walt Disney stuff please do, I don't care, but leave me and don't insult my religion and myself.

You can criticise if you like but keep your insults to yourself.




Answer:
Your Religion, which is a means of manipulation and control over millions of people; yet at the same time, you would claim that your god is perfect and the God of all! ... the most merciful 'God' you would tell me, that through 'his' ("We" in the Qur'an) wisdom must have made a mistake in creating us so 'he' has to correct 'his' mistake in creating us?!

John we have been through this already, we keep going around in circles because you John keep asking the same question and trying to make an argument out of something that is beyond your comprehension.

God did not make mistakes, God is not trying anything, now if you ant answers go ahead and read the Qu'ran, when you read it, read it again, and then when you're lost ask some one who has a slightly better understanding.



So you threaten me with the "consequences" of not believing your version of God, which very politely put implies that you might be thinking I will go to a mythical Hell because I do not believe the same as you do.

John I have told you before, you're a twister, and I was right, I did ask you a very specific question, instead of answering it, you beat around the bush again.


John
P.S. As a human I love you but I do not love the deception of Religion.

John please spare me the acting I have told you that before, you either love someone or you don't.

Forgive me but I don't believe you, can we now move on from here?
And I am not here to be loved or hated.
Either way I don't care really.

So please if you'r willing to debate go ahead, without all this nonsense.

[adbasque]

Rubbish.


Name some wars caused by religion ?

Wars are always fought over land and/or resources, sometimes the rulers use religion to trick the masses into going along but even then thats in a minority of cases. You would have to go back a long time in history to find a war caused by religion.

Even though we disagree on a lot of things bendoon, but I have to agree with you here.

I have asked them to show us, where are the wars, conflicts, and evil deeds caused by "Religion"

They keep accusing religion but when you ask them to show you one thing, they go away and ignore the question.

It's true some people did things in "the name" of religion, there's a difference between doing things in it's name and the religion itself being the culprit.

It's a common phrase nowdays.

some people don't even know what's in the religion.
They go by what others tell them and what others say, I mean repeaters.

[bendoon]

Even though we disagree on a lot of things bendoon, .

Actually, when you think about it, we agree on most things except Islam in Europe. :D

[adbasque]

Actually, when you think about it, we agree on most things except Islam in Europe. :D

Yes lol
And BNP :p

:D

[tjohn]

Two things here
1) I am sorry a theory is a theory once it has been proved it becomes a fact.
It is not at all the same thing, if it is called a theory is because it has not been proven to be a fact.

2) You keep on and on about this book, you get your information from a far less reliable books and "Auhors" which you don't know half of their real intentions for writing whatever you're reading.

I like the way you keep talking about logical thinking, what do you think we do?
Everybody has a logical way of working out things in life, do you know that?
That's what I do John, I work out facts I use logic just like everybody else.

To be honest it's your ignorance and a lot of assumption that keeps you in the dark

Let me first point out how disrespectful and arrogant you are towards me and my religion.
Why do you have to use the "Your Mohammed" this is a sign of resentfulness and despise and it's extremely impolite to talk that way, I had to point it out, because you have done it once too often.

Now, Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes John, Mohammed (PBUH) was a MAN he died and it's all over, Mohamed did not ask to worship him, he asked to worship God.

Yes you're a man John, he is a Prophet and you're not :)

I do put my whole trust in that book, yes, because I have my reasons and my own reasons, No John I will not trust you nor your book, unless you can provide evidence that you are indeed a messenger from God.

Those creatures are the Angels, Angels are NOT, remember this they are NOT God, Humans are NOT God, Jinns are not God, only God is God.

Please don't talk to me about this "Whole" business again, there's one entity he is God, now you want to believe in Walt Disney stuff please do, I don't care, but leave me and don't insult my religion and myself.

You can criticise if you like but keep your insults to yourself.

John we have been through this already, we keep going around in circles because you John keep asking the same question and trying to make an argument out of something that is beyond your comprehension.

God did not make mistakes, God is not trying anything, now if you ant answers go ahead and read the Qu'ran, when you read it, read it again, and then when you're lost ask some one who has a slightly better understanding.

John I have told you before, you're a twister, and I was right, I did ask you a very specific question, instead of answering it, you beat around the bush again.

John please spare me the acting I have told you that before, you either love someone or you don't.

Forgive me but I don't believe you, can we now move on from here?
And I am not here to be loved or hated.
Either way I don't care really.

So please if you'r willing to debate go ahead, without all this nonsense.Theory
http://www.answers.com/topic/theory


A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

The birds and the bees, the flowers and the trees, do not pray five times a day, do they? Nor should we, it isn't needed, don't you see?

Yes I have a theory about God and the Universe but unlike as the case with yourself, it didn't come about through blindly following your Book, nor the Bible for that matter, though the latter gives some clues as I suspect your Book might. As I have previously said, I have not read many books but can think independently of Religion - meaning I can think without the doctrines and teachings which define a Religion.

A Religion is not a Book, it is the religious teachings that are often deviously derived from a Book that determine Religion. And frankly we should not base our life on a Book, because the Truth is inside us if only we search for it. And Listen: I do not hate you, I hate what Religion has done to you and other Religious people. Religion makes you slaves but you were created to be free of Religion as the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees are. It is man's interpretation of Books that makes people slaves. Be natural that's what I ask and that's what I hope for all humanity, be who You (plural) really are and find yourselves, not by following a Book that tells you what to think and feel.

Oh and another thing, it is your Mohammed when you follow his words; he's not my Mohammed is he? It is your Religion when you follow it, it is not my Religion... I do not have one as such. I simply have a theory and because of the Truth in my heart I choose not to be destructive through Religious deception.

BTW, what is that question of yours you say I have not answered?

[free thinker]

If you can make any sort of connection between god and religion, then religion lies at the heart of virtually all conflicts between humans, imo.

Lets take America, GOD BLESS AMERICA, (while we attack another country, killing how many?) is this without connection to religion then?

So where i am coming from, as soon as you mention the word 'god' in any form of conflict such as described above, then by default, religion lies at its core, or am i missing something?

[adbasque]

If you can make any sort of connection between god and religion, then religion lies at the heart of virtually all conflicts between humans, imo.

Lets take America, GOD BLESS AMERICA, (while we attack another country, killing how many?) is this without connection to religion then?

So where i am coming from, as soon as you mention the word 'god' in any form of conflict such as described above, then by default, religion lies at its core, or am i missing something?

Yes I am afraid you are missing something here
I can't believe that you're actually looking at it and saying it but you can't see it lol

Let me give an example, let's say your name is Paul Smith, so I go out and do all sorts of things and shout it out loud that I am Paul Smith attack people on the street, steal, etc etc,...

So that means you're guilty??

That is exactly what happened with religion, real evil people did things in it's name.
Check out religion itself and see what it teaches and then look the other side some hypocrites do in it's name.

GwBush calls himself a Christian, right? But we know he is a Satanist.
Why is he calling himself a Christian do you think?

PS: In your environment, I presume you're a Christian, right?

How many Christians do you know?
And out of these Christians how many do you know as killers, thieves, evil?

[free thinker]

Holy wars
Modern people often regard the idea of a holy war as a contradiction. Killing thousands of people and causing wholesale destruction seems to be as far from holiness as one can get.

But religion and war have gone hand in hand for a long time. Armies go into battle believing that God is with them, often after prayers and sacrifices to keep God on their side. In tribal cultures (including Biblical ones) when a people lose a war they often have to change to the worship of the winner's gods.

However involving God as part of the campaign does not make a war a holy war - for a war to be a holy war, religion has to be the driving force.

Holy wars usually have three elements:

the achievement of a religious goal
authorised by a religious leader
a spiritual reward for those who take part
Many of the wars fought in the name of religion do conform to the just war conditions, but not all of them.

Religious causes
Francis Bacon said there were five causes for holy war: (he wrote in a Christian context, but the categories would be usable by any faith)

to spread the faith
to retrieve countries that were once Christian, even though there are no Christians left there
to rescue Christians in countries that were once Christian from 'the servitude of the infidels'
recover and purify consecrated places that are presently being 'polluted and profaned'
avenge blasphemous acts, or cruelties and killings of Christians (even if these took place long ago)
Only the first of these causes is completely outside the scope of the conventional idea of a just cause. Some of the other causes, because of the length of time that can pass since the offending act took place are probably not just causes either.

Lawful authority
The legitimate authority for a holy war is not the government of a state (except in a theocracy) but the Church, or the relevant organisation or person who heads the religious institution concerned.

In ancient times the authority was often God - in the Bible there are several occasions where God gave direct instructions to peoples to wage war. This would not be the case today.

Personal reward
The third condition of a holy war is a spiritual reward for those who take part. The doctrine of the just war does not refer to any personal rewards for the participants - and such rewards would be against such a generally austere doctrine.

History
The first holy war was probably in October 312 CE when the Roman emperor Constantine saw a vision of the cross in the sky with this inscription "in hoc signo vinces" (in this sign you will win).

Constantine trusted the vision and had the cross inscribed on his soldiers' armor. Even though his forces were outnumbered, he won the battle against an army that was using pagan enchantment. (Historians regard this as a turning point in Christianity's fortune.)

The Crusades
The great series of western holy wars were the Crusades, which lasted from 1095 until 1291 CE. The aim was to capture the sacred places in the Holy Land from the Muslims who lived there, so it was intended as a war to right wrongs done against Christianity.

The first Crusade was started by Pope Urban II in 1095. He raged at the capture of the holy places and the treatment given to Christians, and ordered a war to restore Christianity. He said that the war would have the support of God:

Let this be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

..Whoever shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage and shall make his vow to God to that effect and shall offer himself to Him as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, shall wear the sign of the cross of the Lord on his forehead or on his breast.

The pope also absolved all who took part in the crusade of all their sins.

The first Crusade captured Jerusalem after bitter fighting, and the residents of the city were brutalised and slaughtered by the Christian invaders. The invaders' conduct breached the principles of modern just war ethics, and the massacres still colour Islamic politics today

[adbasque]

Holy wars
Modern people often regard the idea of a holy war as a contradiction. Killing thousands of people and causing wholesale destruction seems to be as far from holiness as one can get.

But religion and war have gone hand in hand for a long time. Armies go into battle believing that God is with them, often after prayers and sacrifices to keep God on their side. In tribal cultures (including Biblical ones) when a people lose a war they often have to change to the worship of the winner's gods.

However involving God as part of the campaign does not make a war a holy war - for a war to be a holy war, religion has to be the driving force.

Holy wars usually have three elements:

the achievement of a religious goal
authorised by a religious leader
a spiritual reward for those who take part
Many of the wars fought in the name of religion do conform to the just war conditions, but not all of them.

Religious causes
Francis Bacon said there were five causes for holy war: (he wrote in a Christian context, but the categories would be usable by any faith)

to spread the faith
to retrieve countries that were once Christian, even though there are no Christians left there
to rescue Christians in countries that were once Christian from 'the servitude of the infidels'
recover and purify consecrated places that are presently being 'polluted and profaned'
avenge blasphemous acts, or cruelties and killings of Christians (even if these took place long ago)
Only the first of these causes is completely outside the scope of the conventional idea of a just cause. Some of the other causes, because of the length of time that can pass since the offending act took place are probably not just causes either.

Lawful authority
The legitimate authority for a holy war is not the government of a state (except in a theocracy) but the Church, or the relevant organisation or person who heads the religious institution concerned.

In ancient times the authority was often God - in the Bible there are several occasions where God gave direct instructions to peoples to wage war. This would not be the case today.

Personal reward
The third condition of a holy war is a spiritual reward for those who take part. The doctrine of the just war does not refer to any personal rewards for the participants - and such rewards would be against such a generally austere doctrine.

History
The first holy war was probably in October 312 CE when the Roman emperor Constantine saw a vision of the cross in the sky with this inscription "in hoc signo vinces" (in this sign you will win).

Constantine trusted the vision and had the cross inscribed on his soldiers' armor. Even though his forces were outnumbered, he won the battle against an army that was using pagan enchantment. (Historians regard this as a turning point in Christianity's fortune.)

The Crusades
The great series of western holy wars were the Crusades, which lasted from 1095 until 1291 CE. The aim was to capture the sacred places in the Holy Land from the Muslims who lived there, so it was intended as a war to right wrongs done against Christianity.

The first Crusade was started by Pope Urban II in 1095. He raged at the capture of the holy places and the treatment given to Christians, and ordered a war to restore Christianity. He said that the war would have the support of God:

Let this be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!

..Whoever shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage and shall make his vow to God to that effect and shall offer himself to Him as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, shall wear the sign of the cross of the Lord on his forehead or on his breast.

The pope also absolved all who took part in the crusade of all their sins.

The first Crusade captured Jerusalem after bitter fighting, and the residents of the city were brutalised and slaughtered by the Christian invaders. The invaders' conduct breached the principles of modern just war ethics, and the massacres still colour Islamic politics today

In most cases as I said before, all of what you mentioned above did happen but it always comes back to the same fact no matter how many stories there are.

Religion has been used to conquer, to retrieve, for political gains, for invasions, and most of the people who did these things aren't even religious, some were dragged into wars and conquests believing, but why? Because most of them trusted their leaders and never took the time to learn what their religion teaches, instead they believed their warmongers and followed blindly, if they glanced at their religion they will find that it's peaceful and there's nowhere in that religion where it states:

Killing
Invading
Conquering
Enslaving
etc.. these the work of the devil not religion, religion was framed and used against the naivety and the ignorance of the many.

But people who knew their religion very well didn't get involved.

But then, there are many other conflicts and wars that didn't involve religion, because they didn't need to involve religion, they used other means to start wars.

Now, if we got rid of all religions, do you honestly believe there wouldn't be any wars? If so what else can we get rid of?

That comes to show that religion has nothing to do with anything, simply because God doesn't want destruction if he wanted destruction he has other ways of doing it.

he can wreak this planet in no time at all.
This is the work of the devil and his army, trying to frame God's religion to pull as many people away as possible, and they have been doing it for centuries and centuries.
Nothing new, nothing has changed in the last 3 or 4000 years.
Even before Jesus, and Moses, you can go as far back as Noah and the ones before him.

[free thinker]

In most cases as I said before, all of what you mentioned above did happen but it always comes back to the same fact no matter how many stories there are.

Religion has been used to conquer, to retrieve, for political gains, for invasions, and most of the people who did these things aren't even religious, some were dragged into wars and conquests believing, but why? Because most of them trusted their leaders and never took the time to learn what their religion teaches, instead they believed their warmongers and followed blindly, if they glanced at their religion they will find that it's peaceful and there's nowhere in that religion where it states:

Killing
Invading
Conquering
Enslaving
etc.. these the work of the devil not religion, religion was framed and used against the naivety and the ignorance of the many.

But people who knew their religion very well didn't get involved.

But then, there are many other conflicts and wars that didn't involve religion, because they didn't need to involve religion, they used other means to start wars.

Now, if we got rid of all religions, do you honestly believe there wouldn't be any wars? If so what else can we get rid of?

That comes to show that religion has nothing to do with anything, simply because God doesn't want destruction if he wanted destruction he has other ways of doing it.

he can wreak this planet in no time at all.
This is the work of the devil and his army, trying to frame God's religion to pull as many people away as possible, and they have been doing it for centuries and centuries.
Nothing new, nothing has changed in the last 3 or 4000 years.
Even before Jesus, and Moses, you can go as far back as Noah and the ones before him.

there is NO god that could wreck the planet, but humans can.

You will never come even close to getting me to believe in any religion, ever!

TO ME, it is laughable that anybody can take it so seriously.
I believe, in showing good will to all mankind, no religion needed

you seem to split it up between good and evil, both are the same, to me, there is no difference i choose not to give credence to either... makes no sense to me what so ever, devils and gods, same fables to me.

That is my thoughts on it, as in "me myself and I"....just an opinion, dont take it to heart if someone slates your religion, you are within your rights to defend it, afford me the same right not to..

[adbasque]

there is NO god that could wreck the planet, but humans can.

You will never come even close to getting me to believe in any religion, ever!

TO ME, it is laughable that anybody can take it so seriously.
I believe, in showing good will to all mankind, no religion needed

you seem to split it up between good and evil, both are the same, to me, there is no difference i choose not to give credence to either... makes no sense to me what so ever, devils and gods, same fables to me.

That is my thoughts on it, as in "me myself and I"....just an opinion, dont take it to heart if someone slates your religion, you are within your rights to defend it, afford me the same right not to..
I don't take it to heart, you're expressing your opinion, why should I take it to heart? :D

I don't know where you got this idea that I want to make you believe anything, I am not even defending it, I am showing you some facts.

Now if you don't believe in God, religion and you think it's laughable fine by me, I don't have a problem with that, I also see a lot of things most people believe in as laughable, I can see the fact you don't believe in religion or God as laughable, yes it's your opinion and I am not trying to make you or anyone to change your opinions.

And that is my opinion too :)

Take care, Peace :)

[mrerisian]

The problem with this thread is that the religious nutters post HUGE reams of text which I can't be arsed to read. It suggests to me that religious types talk more than they listen.

[adbasque]

The problem with this thread is that the religious nutters post HUGE reams of text which I can't be arsed to read. It suggests to me that religious types talk more than they listen.

Then don't be arsed and don't bother to read it, and don't comment either.

[majorion]

The problem with this thread is that the religious nutters post HUGE reams of text which I can't be arsed to read. It suggests to me that religious types talk more than they listen.

lol

Not so much that, but poor adbasque has been defending his position from every angle covering every detail from the beginning of his thread here 250 something pages ago.

If it were my thread, I'd probably go into even more detail, be thankful. :)

Best,
M

[adbasque]

Theory
http://www.answers.com/topic/theory
The birds and the bees, the flowers and the trees, do not pray five times a day, do they? Nor should we, it isn't needed, don't you see?

Did you ask them?
I thought you were human not an insect, now you compare yourself to an insect, an animal, a tree?

Trees don't talk either, they don't walk, they don't post on DI's forum:rolleyes:
Again you are assuming, "We assume they don't pray, we don't know"
Can you prove it?


For what it's worth, it is mentioned in the Qu'ran, that everything in the heavens and on earth prays to God and that includes the planets and the galaxies.




Yes I have a theory about God and the Universe but unlike as the case with yourself, it didn't come about through blindly following your Book, nor the Bible for that matter, though the latter gives some clues as I suspect your Book might. As I have previously said, I have not read many books but can think independently of Religion - meaning I can think without the doctrines and teachings which define a Religion.

Do you think I was born with this book in my hand?
I have told you that I went to search for it, I had to think, this BOOK didn't jump at me, I had to find it, and examine, put it to the test, challenge it, again John it's your assumption that I am following it blindly, which I could say the same thing about your belief.

You're following your belief blindly diregarding other possibilities.
See? It works both ways.
You can think without the doctrine of religion, but you have embraced another doctrine (Assuming religion is a doctrine a view that I don't share)



A Religion is not a Book, it is the religious teachings that are often deviously derived from a Book that determine Religion. And frankly we should not base our life on a Book, because the Truth is inside us if only we search for it.

Religion and the book are one, the religion sprung from the book what's in the book is a religion.
I am not convinced that you fully understand the meaning of religion, I am having doubts here..:confused:


And Listen: I do not hate you, I hate what Religion has done to you and other Religious people. Religion makes you slaves but you were created to be free of Religion as the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees are.

John please stop the "I do not hate, I hate your religion"
I don't care if you hate me or not, I really couldn't care less, so stop this nonsense and stick to the debate, I am not at all interested in your care or love, we are here to debate if you can debate go ahead, if not we stop it right here.

I have dealt with you before John, I know exactly what you are and who you are, I have a pretty good picture of who you are so don't waste your energy in repeating the same things time and time again, I ain't buying it anymore.

Right, what did religion do to me exactly?
Why do you think I am a slave ? Who's slave?
What is it that you can do and I can't?
Why don't you ever answer questions??


It is man's interpretation of Books that makes people slaves. Be natural that's what I ask and that's what I hope for all humanity, be who You (plural) really are and find yourselves, not by following a Book that tells you what to think and feel.

Yes, that why people should learn their religion and don't rely on any man to interpret religion to them.
Allah encourages people to read the Qu'ran, because he wants people to be aware for themselves and not rely entirely on "Scholars".

Why don't you give me an example where this book told me what to think or what to feel?
You keep repeating the same things over and over and over, but when I ask you to provide any evidence you jump to soemthing else, why can't you stay on the same subject???

Show me don't tell me, show ME







Oh and another thing, it is your Mohammed when you follow his words; he's not my Mohammed is he? It is your Religion when you follow it, it is not my Religion... I do not have one as such. I simply have a theory and because of the Truth in my heart I choose not to be destructive through Religious deception.

BTW, what is that question of yours you say I have not answered?

No why do you use the "Your", can't you just say Mohamed?
a Religion is one thing a human being (Mohamed) is another.
When you say your Mohamed if there are more than one, no I'll tell you what it means, when you use this kind of language, it is talking down to people, to try and point at the somewhere down there (at least in your head) you're trying to infuriate me with your little comments.

Sometime I believe you have been trained in NLP, the way you point a finger

You choose not to be destructive through religious deception?
Which deception is that?
Which destruction?
Can you point to a specific thing that is a deception or destructive?
Fair question isn't it?
Can you then answer these questions in which you seem to be very sure of

Deception
&
Destruction

If you have any evidence or proof let's hear it.

[free thinker]

Answer this...but not in the "god takes the ones he loves" way, because it doesn't make sense.

If god is the creator, then why does he stand idle, watching so much suffering of mankind.

My answer is simple, there isn't a god, ...and your answer?:)

You see my theory is that we as humans have become more advanced as a species, look at what has been achieved (apart from war) in the last say 100 years, if you can attribute this to a god, then why wait this long to "Give" it?

Nice ideals, but sorry its too big a pill for me to swallow.

Take islam for an instance, "you are going to be surrounded by virgins upon death".... LoL GREAT and tell me of what use is being surrounded by virgins, when supposedly ghosts can walk through walls, hey, thats my idea of hell!!

secondly what if they were gay virgins:eek::D

[majorion]

it is mentioned in the Qu'ran, that everything in the heavens and on earth prays to God and that includes the planets and the galaxies.

Maybe that is only a metaphor of the Creative Process.

The Circle of Life.

Obviously, the author was not referring to a similar physical prayer as in the case of Islamic worship.


My answer is simple, there isn't a god, ...and your answer?:)

My answer is there is a God, but its not at all as we imagine. :)

Best,
M

[mrerisian]

Then don't be arsed and don't bother to read it, and don't comment either.

Temper, temper. I was only trying to be helpful.

[adbasque]

Maybe that is only a metaphor of the Creative Process.

The Circle of Life.

Obviously, the author was not referring to a similar physical prayer as in the case of Islamic worship.

Absolutely, it's not in the same physical prayer, not at all.

The word used in Arabic is "Tusabih" it's another form of worship :)


My answer is there is a God, but its not at all as we imagine. :)

Best,
M

I am not sure how people imagine God, but in Islam, we can't give him an image or think of him as a big Guy etc...

According to the Qu'ran and its tafsir Allah (God) is Nur (Light)
mind you it's a rough description Majorion :)

Peace bro :)

[adbasque]

Temper, temper. I was only trying to be helpful.

No you're wrong mrersian, I simply said not to bother if you think that what we type is too big or you haven't got the time to waste.

No temper at all :)

[adbasque]

Answer this...but not in the "god takes the ones he loves" way, because it doesn't make sense.

This is nonsense, whoever told you that is clearly talking rubbish
God takes bad and good, when your time is up you go, no matter how good or bad you are.


If god is the creator, then why does he stand idle, watching so much suffering of mankind.

Two things
God reserves his judgement at the end, he is very patient and he gives chances for repents.
Another thing, don't think God is you or me, we don't have his wisdom.
If God takes every sinner, how many people do you think will remain alive?


My answer is simple, there isn't a god, ...and your answer?:)


Well my answer is there's a god what you're trying to do here is to understand God, well if that is the case, just give it up now, you will only understand what he want us to understand and discover.


You see my theory is that we as humans have become more advanced as a species, look at what has been achieved (apart from war) in the last say 100 years, if you can attribute this to a god, then why wait this long to "Give" it?

No we have been evolving, gradually, we are not that advanced yet, we have a lot of things we can't work out yet, this is nothing we are a little advanced vis a vis to the previous generations, Are we really?
Are we able to understand the ancient technologies?
He has given us the ability to evolve and progress, he made us as "Free thinkers" with guidance.


Nice ideals, but sorry its too big a pill for me to swallow.

I don't know about you or how you perceive these things, but for me it makes a perfect sense.
But that doesn't mean I close all other doors, I am still searching, hunting down clues and pieces of evidence.
If you take a look at my sig, intelligence without wisdom is dangerous.


Take islam for an instance, "you are going to be surrounded by virgins upon death".... LoL GREAT and tell me of what use is being surrounded by virgins, when supposedly ghosts can walk through walls, hey, thats my idea of hell!!

secondly what if they were gay virgins:eek::D

Have you thought of maybe as humans we have a very limited imagination?
You can't make sense out of something you haven't seen, that's where "Believing" comes in,

You will not be surrounded with virgins upon death, that will happen after the final judgement.
If they are Gay as you put it, everything is allowed once you pass this mortal world.

Remember we are talking about a completely different dimension, that's why I said us human have a very limited knowledge and very limited imagination, even though we think the sky is the limit, true, the sky is the limit.

Because we can't see beyond that sky.
In the Qu'ran for instance, he speaks of 7 skies, right? so if the one we see I mean in space as far as a telescope can see or the most powerful technology can see, what happened to the other 6 skies or levels then?

You see what I mean by very limited, no matter how advanced we are, we have our limits as a species.

You know that amongst the believers are usually the scientists?
It's a fact, biologists, astronomers, etc..

I have two questions for you, if you don't believe in God then, what do you think is going to happen to you when you die?

Why do you think we have such a short life?
And who made us then?
And for what purpose?

If you can answer these questions satisfactorily then we can talk, how about that? :p

[majorion]

Absolutely, it's not in the same physical prayer, not at all.

The word used in Arabic is "Tusabih" it's another form of worship :)

You don't have to respond to this, I'd just like to add to that a bit. :)

"Tusabih" means to "Glorify". in what way do those plants animals and heavenly bodies "Glorify"? - I have already stated my interpretation accordingly.

I am not sure how people imagine God, but in Islam, we can't give him an image or think of him as a big Guy etc...

I know, there a lot that is Haraam in Islam. Most people in the world imagine God as someone closely resembling their clerics, whatever the given religion.

According to the Qu'ran and its tafsir Allah (God) is Nur (Light)
mind you it's a rough description Majorion :)

I'm not so sure about that one, I recall something along those lines, however I also recall the Islamic belief that Angels are a creation of light. Are God and Angels of the same essence? Very interesting :)

Best,
M

[adbasque]

You don't have to respond to this, I'd just like to add to that a bit. :)


OK no prob, wasted just a little of my ink :p


"Tusabih" means to "Glorify". in what way do those plants animals and heavenly bodies "Glorify"? - I have already stated my interpretation accordingly.


yes indeed Tusabih means Glorify but it's still a form of worship, the same way a Muslim Glorifies Allah after every Salat.

I don't know the real details on how they glorify God, this is something amongst other things that I am trying to look for some answers.



I know, there a lot that is Haraam in Islam. Most people in the world imagine God as someone closely resembling their clerics, whatever the given religion.


Very true.


I'm not so sure about that one, I recall something along those lines, however I also recall the Islamic belief that Angels are a creation of light. Are God and Angels of the same essence? Very interesting :)

Best,
M

Well Angels were created from light except for Shaitan (Satan) who was created from Nar (fire)

What is interesting here is:

Satan was the most beautiful of all the Angels, does that mean being made out of Fire gives you that beauty better than the ones made out of light?


Now whether Allah (God) and the Angels are from the same essence, hard to tell, but I will certainly try and find out.

In any case, I do believe even if they are from the same essence as you mentioned it, I doubt very much that it would on the same level.

It is very interesting as you said, and I will look into it in the next few days or weeks, hopefully I could come up with an answer.


Peace :)

[mightyoak]

The problem with this thread is that the religious nutters post HUGE reams of text which I can't be arsed to read. It suggests to me that religious types talk more than they listen.

Exactly as stated They fear the lord ya know :confused:

[majorion]

Well Angels were created from light except for Shaitan (Satan) who was created from Nar (fire)

Humans are described as being created from clay, or in other words, Earth materials, essentially the same chemical composition, we are Carbon based according to Science.

Quite a while ago, I found an interesting article about the Jinn and the author has a certain interpretation of what 'created from fire' actually means, he equates it to Plasma;

http://ezinearticles.com/?Jinns---Plasma-Aliens-From-a-Parallel-Earth&id=1293623

Its only but one single theory mind you. :)

Enjoy,
M

[adbasque]

Humans are described as being created from clay, or in other words, Earth materials, essentially the same chemical composition, we are Carbon based according to Science.

Quite a while ago, I found an interesting article about the Jinn and the author has a certain interpretation of what 'created from fire' actually means, he equates it to Plasma;

http://ezinearticles.com/?Jinns---Plasma-Aliens-From-a-Parallel-Earth&id=1293623

Its only but one single theory mind you. :)

Enjoy,
M

Plasma?
Yes actually the Jinn live in a parallel world to ours and they can cross between the two worlds and they can move between dimensions.

But very interesting though ;)

PS: Qu'ran also says what we know as a "Shooting star" is in fact the Angels shoting at Jinns when they get closer to listen to their conversation, and that's what we see going across the sky as a shooting star.

For some it may sound like a far fetched story tale, but that's entirely up to them.
Even some meteor showers we see every now and then.

Yes there's a constant battle between Jinns and the Angels, Mind you the bad Jinns of course not the good ones.

[majorion]

PS: Qu'ran also says what we know as a "Shooting star" is in fact the Angels shoting at Jinns when they get closer to listen to their conversation, and that's what we see going across the sky as a shooting star.

For some it may sound like a far fetched story tale, but that's entirely up to them.


Actually, quite clearly, we are the ones doing the shooting:

Star Wars Defence Shoots at UFO In Orbit - YouTube

There is a secret war being waged in Space. - YouTube

Best,
M

[adbasque]

Actually, quite clearly, we are the ones doing the shooting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayyj1pYjuD4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqMf3towVVI

Best,
M

Well it can stand for now Majorion, but what about the past centuries?

Maybe we are doing shootings aswell but only recently.

But shooting stars have been reported centuries and centuries ago.

[majorion]

Well it can stand for now Majorion, but what about the past centuries?

Maybe we are doing shootings aswell but only recently.

But shooting stars have been reported centuries and centuries ago.

Would you please quote that very specific verse? - Because you know, I always have an interpretation of my own. :)

As it stands, I don't think the author was suggesting that every single asteroid, comet, or meteor, was a holy heavenly weapon. I think it is only suggestive that these naturally occurring phenomena could be manipulated somehow or be used as a weapon of self defense. Ergo; technology can do that, highly advanced technology, possessed by a highly advanced race.

However if we are take that verse quite literally as in the conventional Islamic case, and believe that every one of these was a natural weapon created by God to be used against naughty entities, then we must also accept that the recent bruise on Jupiter caused by a powerful impact from a comet was actually a punishment by God for the inhabitants there. Yes, inhabitants on Jupiter.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/slideshows/images/jupiter-scar-600x480.jpg

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/slideshows/jupiter-collision-scar.html

Best,
M

[adbasque]

Would you please quote that very specific verse? - Because you know, I always have an interpretation of my own. :)

As it stands, I don't think the author was suggesting that every single asteroid, comet, or meteor, was a holy heavenly weapon. I think it is only suggestive that these naturally occurring phenomena could be manipulated somehow or be used as a weapon of self defense. Ergo; technology can do that, highly advanced technology, possessed by a highly advanced race.


I am not at all disputing this, I think it's even possible or a show put by the secretive government to make us believe in some iinter Galactical war ;)
So anything is possible, I am not in a position to disaprove any of it, although I am sure videos like these can be faked quite easily with modern technolgy.


However if we are take that verse quite literally as in the conventional Islamic case, and believe that every one of these was a natural weapon created by God to be used against naughty entities, then we must also accept that the recent bruise on Jupiter caused by a powerful impact from a comet was actually a punishment by God for the inhabitants there. Yes, inhabitants on Jupiter.

You can perhaps check this link (http://www.scribd.com/doc/12812816/ORKUT-DEBATES-in-Muslim-Hindu-Dialogue-Shooting-Stars-Quran-vs-Science-)

I hope it will help you see the possibilities, and another thing to mention here
is "there are people who perform some miracles every now and then"
Some people can predict things everynow and then, they are helped by the Jinns, known as (Usually Jews) (Taamul maa El Jinn)

Sometimes magicians not all of course ;)

Best,
M[/QUOTE]
Sorry I forgot here it is

Perhaps you need to check this link too (http://www.dusstore.com/TheNobleQuran/surah72.html)

[majorion]

I am not at all disputing this, I think it's even possible or a show put by the secretive government to make us believe in some iinter Galactical war

Well for people who possibly may be trying to make us believe in such, they sure go out of their way to deny and debunk that possibility and make us believe anything otherwise. They completely deny it.

I am not in a position to disaprove any of it, although I am sure videos like these can be faked quite easily with modern technolgy.

Sure, but then again, NASA have not denied that this video is real, they simply brush the footage aside explaining this and all the other phenomena as "ice particles". Do you believe what you were seeing was an "ice particle"? Do "ice particles" also behave intelligently making 180 degree turns avoiding projectiles?

"there are people who perform some miracles every now and then"
Some people can predict things everynow and then, they are helped by the Jinns,

Ah, so how do I know that when one performs 'miracles', such as Jesus Mohammad et. al. that its not actually God's miracle, but rather the help of advanced entities? How can one tell any difference?

As for predictions, ESP, telepathy, or remote viewing. I urge you to research the CIA's Stargate program, you can find many declassified files on John Greenwald's BlackVault archive. I will also reference Ingo Swann, who is/was probably the finest psychic remote viewer the American government was ever graced with. Beyond any doubt, you will conclude that it is not necessary to summon other wordly entities for purposes of ESP.

Perhaps you need to check this link too

Surah Al Jinn is very interesting indeed, one of my favorites matter of fact. I assume the two below verses are the ones in question:

8. 'And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.

9. 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush

Granted this a rough English translation, with the author probably interpreting more than actually translating. But still, I see no evidence from this to support the concept you are speaking of, as well as most other Muslims.

"sought to reach the heaven" obviously means traversing in space, but the Quran was meant for everyone to comprehend, even those of little or no knowledge.

"we used to sit there in stations, to a hearing" probably means exactly what it sounds like. A time when there was a technological advantage the other race possessed which allowed them successful espionage and spying from their station. "but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush" is probably a description of a force field, or an electromagnetic shield, perhaps developed later on by the proponents and/or author(s) of the Quran.

This verse here:

11. 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary; we are groups each having a different way (religious sect, etc.).

Now the translator has included their common interpretation there in the brackets at the end, unsurprisingly, adding to what they apparently feel is incomplete.

I think "groups each having a different way" could be monumentally significant. It could be implying completely different races. The translator simply believes that the Jinn suffer from the same sectarian issues we humans do.

I respect your opinion adbasque, but I also disagree.

Best,
M

[adbasque]

Well for people who possibly may be trying to make us believe in such, they sure go out of their way to deny and debunk that possibility and make us believe anything otherwise. They completely deny it.


It's a mind game in my opinion, How I see it played by these people.

They release a video of the sort, right?
Then they pretend to deny it with a ridiculous argument
They know most people will question their story, so what does that do?
It makes people even eager to believe that something is going on and ultimately believe in extra terrestrial creatures with advanced technology.

Now let me ask you this question, right?

The UFO we saw moving and then disappeared was actually too far away from what we saw shooting out to space.

If I believe that was a piece of Ice? Absolutely not, no way, but the way I see it is, that whatever is up there must be from here, how many secret files we don't know of?
How many advanced technologies we never heard of?

One more thing, how an alegedly advanced entity that traverse the univers, yet they were scared by some primitive weapons shooting at them?

Can you believe that? They have a far advanced technology to even conquer this planet if they wanted (if that were true) and they are afraid of some primitive missiles or whatever they shot into space??


Sure, but then again, NASA have not denied that this video is real, they simply brush the footage aside explaining this and all the other phenomena as "ice particles". Do you believe what you were seeing was an "ice particle"? Do "ice particles" also behave intelligently making 180 degree turns avoiding projectiles?


Not at all, I don't believe for one second it was an ice particle lol
As I said above, I believe it's a trick by the NASA and the Elite.IMHO


Ah, so how do I know that when one performs 'miracles', such as Jesus Mohammad et. al. that its not actually God's miracle, but rather the help of advanced entities? How can one tell any difference?


Let's take you argument here, why would an advanced entity tell Mohamed or Jesus to claim that it's God and not mention us?
What go to all this trouble and yet hide themselves behind a "God" title?


As for predictions, ESP, telepathy, or remote viewing. I urge you to research the CIA's Stargate program, you can find many declassified files on John Greenwald's BlackVault archive. I will also reference Ingo Swann, who is/was probably the finest psychic remote viewer the American government was ever graced with. Beyond any doubt, you will conclude that it is not necessary to summon other wordly entities for purposes of ESP.

Yes it by telepathy but from who?
It's the Jinns revealing what they hear to certain humans, those humans who used things like sorcery, black magic and so on...

What we call people who sold their souls to the devil.



Surah Al Jinn is very interesting indeed, one of my favorites matter of fact. I assume the two below verses are the ones in question:

8. 'And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.

9. 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush



Granted this a rough English translation, with the author probably interpreting more than actually translating. But still, I see no evidence from this to support the concept you are speaking of, as well as most other Muslims.

"sought to reach the heaven" obviously means traversing in space, but the Quran was meant for everyone to comprehend, even those of little or no knowledge.

"we used to sit there in stations, to a hearing" probably means exactly what it sounds like. A time when there was a technological advantage the other race possessed which allowed them successful espionage and spying from their station. "but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush" is probably a description of a force field, or an electromagnetic shield, perhaps developed later on by the proponents and/or author(s) of the Quran.

This verse here:

11. 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary; we are groups each having a different way (religious sect, etc.).

Now the translator has included their common interpretation there in the brackets at the end, unsurprisingly, adding to what they apparently feel is incomplete.

I think "groups each having a different way" could be monumentally significant. It could be implying completely different races. The translator simply believes that the Jinn suffer from the same sectarian issues we humans do.

I respect your opinion adbasque, but I also disagree.

Best,
M

Well this also is linked to where Allah says.

"I have created the Jinns and Humans only to worship me".
Could it be that he created other species and yet they don't have to worship him?

You see there's some understanding issue here.
Is he speaking about the only two "Entities" that worship him or does it mean that these are the only intelligent creatures he created.

That is where the real question is.
It's for us to find the answers IMO

As I said before, I won't reject the possibility of the existence of other beings

Another possibility, what if the Jinn is a general term which means not from this earth?
Not necessarily the same species, there are endless possibilities the way I see it, but as we never really had any evidence it's hard to just speculate.

There are 4 types of Jinns

Those who fly in the air (speace)
The ones who serve Satan
The ones who are good
The ones who can fly and change shape as described before in some hadiths.
That they usually take "Scorpion shapes, Snake shapes, etc..

Perhaps this what DI thinks are inter breeding with humans.

Because some Muslim Scholars such as "Al-Ghazali" has categorised the 4 types of Jinns.
I read it sometime ago and even heard it, but then it's his personal interpretation, I don't believe he has provided any evidence unless of course he knows something that I unaware of.


As for you question about the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran has not only the complexity of the language, and it's also the divine language even the people who can really master the Arabic language find it sometime a little difficult to understand it.

Qu'ran has the Allegorical and literal meanings, it's for us to make sense of it, in tafsir + hadiths (I know you don't believe in hadiths)

But then How do Muslim learn to pray? it's nowhere in the Qu'ran, it is mentioned but not how to perform the Salat, if it weren't for the hadiths we wouldn't know would we?

The Hadiths are important in Islam

[majorion]

It's a mind game in my opinion, How I see it played by these people.

They release a video of the sort, right?
Then they pretend to deny it with a ridiculous argument
They know most people will question their story, so what does that do?
It makes people even eager to believe that something is going on and ultimately believe in extra terrestrial creatures with advanced technology.

If it were only one video, if only NASA showed the slightest of interests in alien phenomena, if there weren't hundreds and thousands of well documented cases of extraterrestrial encounters. Then, I might consider this very far fetched theory, which would be a pointless effort on behalf of the elite anyhow. What would be the goal therein such deception? None.

There is far more evidence in what I am suggesting to you. And this would not be the only case of weapon related alien incidents. I refer you to the case of Vandenberg, this time it was the aliens who fired, harmlessly intervening though, here's the witness:

UFO Shoots Missile with beams - Vandenberg Air Force Base - YouTube

http://www.nicap.org/bigsur1.htm

There is also the Rendlesham Forest Bentwaters joint US/UK Nuclear Base, a landing occurred, many of them observed the craft for a relatively long period, one of them even touched it, before it took off and only left a physical trace. http://www.rendlesham-incident.co.uk/

Not to forget The Malmstrom AFB UFO/Missile Incident, http://www.cufon.org/cufon/malmstrom/malm1.htm

I'd say that quite a load of evidence my friend.

If I believe that was a piece of Ice? Absolutely not, no way, but the way I see it is, that whatever is up there must be from here,

What is that leads you to conclude it must be from here?

how many secret files we don't know of?
How many advanced technologies we never heard of?

A lot we don't know of, but a lot we do as well. The average person knows nil-to-nothing mainly because they don't look into it, they don't have contacts or leads, and they wouldn't know what to look for anyway.

One more thing, how an alegedly advanced entity that traverse the univers, yet they were scared by some primitive weapons shooting at them?

I wouldn't say the weaponry is primitive. And no one is completely invincible. As well the technological progress (specifically; weapons) have seen a significant upsurge on our planet, especially since 1947 when they successfully recovered their first very own wreckage of a space craft, and have had decades to study and replicate that technology. The very microprocessors and computers we are using right now are a result of some advanced technology seeded cautiously in the industry, believe it or not.

Can you believe that? They have a far advanced technology to even conquer this planet if they wanted (if that were true) and they are afraid of some primitive missiles or whatever they shot into space??

It is evident that they are not here to conquer or destroy. They are not like us. They are around here for a very different purpose, a purpose the elite are intent on fighting because they don't understand, little do they know the outcome will be an overwhelming defeat.

Again, the weaponry is not primitive. You just haven't been briefed on the latest advances in this area. A tiny example:

http://www.kirtland.af.mil/afrl_de/

https://research.au.af.mil/papers/ay1998/awc/98-197ex.pdf

http://thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/04images/Kirtland/Starfire/DirectedEnergyDirectorate.jpg

http://thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/04images/Kirtland/Starfire/398px-Starfield_Optical_Range_-_sodium_laser.jpg

Not at all, I don't believe for one second it was an ice particle lol
As I said above, I believe it's a trick by the NASA and the Elite.IMHO

NASA are tricksters all right.

Let's take you argument here, why would an advanced entity tell Mohamed or Jesus to claim that it's God and not mention us?
What go to all this trouble and yet hide themselves behind a "God" title?

It gives them far more power to manipulate and influence, perhaps as one possibility. After all, if History is any indication, billions and billions of human beings have successfully succumbed to that power for thousands and thousands of years. Its the winning formula apparently. And governments love it. The original intention behind religions is probably a good one, but far too much contamination over the centuries.

Yes it by telepathy but from who?

ESP in general, is a natural underlying ability that all humans possess. The potency of ability differs from person to person. But with the proper training, extensive and persistent training, anyone can bring out their hidden abilities. Yet another thing you're not meant to know about, not in a million years. Its a nightmare for the PTB. You barely use 5-10% of your brain's actual maximum capabilities.

It's the Jinns revealing what they hear to certain humans, those humans who used things like sorcery, black magic and so on...

No evidence whatsoever for that statement my friend. Maybe a lick of truth there, but nothing more.

What we call people who sold their souls to the devil.

There is no 'contract' to sell your soul as such. There is only the metaphor. Our souls are here to be nurtured and matured, "selling the soul" is a comprehensible euphemism for degrading one's soul through deplorable acts.

Well this also is linked to where Allah says.

"I have created the Jinns and Humans only to worship me".
Could it be that he created other species and yet they don't have to worship him?

Could be. But I have to disagree with how you've attributed the meaning of that verse. It is one of the most well known verses, and I know for a fact that it does not end with "worship Me". It simply ends with "worship" (ya'bodoon). The term 'worship' as referenced so importantly in the Quran actually means to nurture and mature the soul. To each his own.

You see there's some understanding issue here.
Is he speaking about the only two "Entities" that worship him or does it mean that these are the only intelligent creatures he created.

I can assure you that there are far more than 2 species in the trillions and trillions of planets in the known universe only.

what if the Jinn is a general term which means not from this earth?
Not necessarily the same species, there are endless possibilities the way I see it

You could be absolutely correct, I can agree with this point, wholeheartedly ;)

Perhaps this what DI thinks are inter breeding with humans.

DI sees the bigger picture rather well. I think Jesus would be a fine example of an alien human hybrid or something along those lines. Everyone from both Christian and Muslim standpoints agree that the virgin Mary was not naturally impregnated by a human male. Wouldn't that leave Artificial Insemination as a logical alternative? Haven't abduction cases proven in many instances that some entities are interested-in and perform similar medical procedures?

Because some Muslim Scholars such as "Al-Ghazali" has categorised the 4 types of Jinns.

There is probably some truth in the origins of these 'categories'. However I have not seen a shred of evidence, and admittedly on your part as well. I wouldn't trust a word from Al-Ghazali or the like for anything. I do not need another person to use his own mind to interpret things for me. I have my own mind and my own interpretation. :)

Qu'ran has the Allegorical and literal meanings, it's for us to make sense of it, in tafsir + hadiths (I know you don't believe in hadiths)

I don't believe in tafsir, either. :)

Both are forms of contamination.

But then How do Muslim learn to pray? it's nowhere in the Qu'ran, it is mentioned but not how to perform the Salat, if it weren't for the hadiths we wouldn't know would we?

No, you wouldn't. Would you be able to quote one verse that attributes Salat to a mandatory physical act. I'm quite skeptical.

The Hadiths are important in Islam

I'm sure they are, because otherwise the scholars and clerics would have no other way of enforcing their interpretations, rules, regulations, and laws.

Best,
M

[adbasque]

If it were only one video, if only NASA showed the slightest of interests in alien phenomena, if there weren't hundreds and thousands of well documented cases of extraterrestrial encounters. Then, I might consider this very far fetched theory, which would be a pointless effort on behalf of the elite anyhow. What would be the goal therein such deception? None.

I am not disputing that other beings might exist, I have never totally dimissed it, all I am saying is there's never a clear image or footage it's always blured or not very clear to see.

I have followed some documentaries when I was younger talking about the sight of UFO, and I believe I have seen a UFO once but I couldn't swear on it.

An object in the sky moving very rapidily it was summer just few minutes after sunset, you could still see a light it wasn't totally dark.
The object was moving in all directions, I found out very odd at the time, I knew it could not have been a plane or even a helicopter.



I must've been around 12 or 13 at the time, so I am not saying they don't exist.



There is far more evidence in what I am suggesting to you. And this would not be the only case of weapon related alien incidents. I refer you to the case of Vandenberg, this time it was the aliens who fired, harmlessly intervening though, here's the witness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4FhJ3mjrE

http://www.nicap.org/bigsur1.htm


Do forgive me, but when something is reported by the MSM, I have my doubts, especially if it's CNN or BBC lol



There is also the Rendlesham Forest Bentwaters joint US/UK Nuclear Base, a landing occurred, many of them observed the craft for a relatively long period, one of them even touched it, before it took off and only left a physical trace. http://www.rendlesham-incident.co.uk/

Not to forget The Malmstrom AFB UFO/Missile Incident, http://www.cufon.org/cufon/malmstrom/malm1.htm

I'd say that quite a load of evidence my friend.

Well, they say that somebody has touched the Aircraft and took a picture of it, but where is the picture?
Was he stopped from releasing it?


What is that leads you to conclude it must be from here?


Because I have read sometime ago that someone from inside the US airforce claiming that the so called UFOs were all the work of the NASA.
And those aircrafts are indeed earthly aircrafts, I am not saying I do believe him, he could be lying or for some unknown reason believes it to be the case.

I have read several witnesses, in which I can also believe they are disinfo agents.
So I keep my options open.


A lot we don't know of, but a lot we do as well. The average person knows nil-to-nothing mainly because they don't look into it, they don't have contacts or leads, and they wouldn't know what to look for anyway.


True, I agree unless someone discloses some information, an average person couldn't tell, unless of course he had a real close encounter with them.



I wouldn't say the weaponry is primitive. And no one is completely invincible. As well the technological progress (specifically; weapons) have seen a significant upsurge on our planet, especially since 1947 when they successfully recovered their first very own wreckage of a space craft, and have had decades to study and replicate that technology. The very microprocessors and computers we are using right now are a result of some advanced technology seeded cautiously in the industry, believe it or not.


Well to what are you comparing it to?
You're comparing our weaponry to what we had before, I am trying to make a logical assumption, if they have these capabilities of travelling through space far better than we do, they must have highly advanced weaponry.


It is evident that they are not here to conquer or destroy. They are not like us. They are around here for a very different purpose, a purpose the elite are intent on fighting because they don't understand, little do they know the outcome will be an overwhelming defeat.

Again we don't know who we're talking about here, we don't know their intentions, do you agree that it's a pure speculation?


Again, the weaponry is not primitive. You just haven't been briefed on the latest advances in this area. A tiny example:

http://www.kirtland.af.mil/afrl_de/

https://research.au.af.mil/papers/ay1998/awc/98-197ex.pdf

http://thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/04images/Kirtland/Starfire/DirectedEnergyDirectorate.jpg

http://thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/04images/Kirtland/Starfire/398px-Starfield_Optical_Range_-_sodium_laser.jpg



It is not for us, for what we used to see and for what we know, but it could easily be prinitive compared with their advanced technology.


NASA are tricksters all right.


At least we agree on one thing here.


It gives them far more power to manipulate and influence, perhaps as one possibility. After all, if History is any indication, billions and billions of human beings have successfully succumbed to that power for thousands and thousands of years. Its the winning formula apparently. And governments love it. The original intention behind religions is probably a good one, but far too much contamination over the centuries.


I don't believe that, I have to disagree with you, I have strong evidence that the governments want to destroy religion altogether, infiltrate it and destroy it from within, and at the same time, they use religion and all the knowledge that it encompasses to further their education and aquire more knowledge.


ESP in general, is a natural underlying ability that all humans possess. The potency of ability differs from person to person. But with the proper training, extensive and persistent training, anyone can bring out their hidden abilities. Yet another thing you're not meant to know about, not in a million years. Its a nightmare for the PTB. You barely use 5-10% of your brain's actual maximum capabilities.

I have heard that it was less than 3% of our brain's capacities.

Some suggest we even use 1/10th of our senses and intellectual capacities.



No evidence whatsoever for that statement my friend. Maybe a lick of truth there, but nothing more.


Well that all depend what sort of evidence you're seeking of course.


There is no 'contract' to sell your soul as such. There is only the metaphor. Our souls are here to be nurtured and matured, "selling the soul" is a comprehensible euphemism for degrading one's soul through deplorable acts.


You know what I mean by "Selling" it's a figure of speech, as you mentioned it above, but the Devil (Satan) is at work.
Satan and his soldiers (Jinns) both created from the same essence.
Smokeless fire.


Could be. But I have to disagree with how you've attributed the meaning of that verse. It is one of the most well known verses, and I know for a fact that it does not end with "worship Me". It simply ends with "worship" (ya'bodoon). The term 'worship' as referenced so importantly in the Quran actually means to nurture and mature the soul. To each his own.


Yes it does, you can check it out.

Y'abooduni there's Ni In Arabic it means me, for instance when you say, "Tuhibuni" You love (Like) me.
In this verse he does say Ya'booduni.


I can assure you that there are far more than 2 species in the trillions and trillions of planets in the known universe only.

I know there must be, because the word "Jinn" only means the "Unseen"
That is the exact translation of the word "Jinn" or Mukhfi the hidden ones.
You can get encounters with them everynow and then.

They can also move at high speed, there's a story between Sulayman (Solomon) (PBHU) with a Jinn.
I'll see if I can find it for you.



You could be absolutely correct, I can agree with this point, wholeheartedly ;)


Good, that is two things :)


DI sees the bigger picture rather well. I think Jesus would be a fine example of an alien human hybrid or something along those lines. Everyone from both Christian and Muslim standpoints agree that the virgin Mary was not naturally impregnated by a human male. Wouldn't that leave Artificial Insemination as a logical alternative? Haven't abduction cases proven in many instances that some entities are interested-in and perform similar medical procedures?


It could be, but it's still doesn't wipe out the religion and God.
All of these evidence and stories fit perfectly what's in the religion if we only take a closer look.

But as a Believer I believe that God has the power to do whatever he wants, with other means, messengers, Angels etc.. it doesn't matter so much how.

Yes she was a virgin, but here is what's important, she was still a virgin after being imregnated.
And Jesus was the only case in the whole history, they could've had another one, I believe that was really God's will and Jesus is not dead, he will eventually return to earth, whether you believe it or not it's beside the point here.
Now, this may go with your theories, Muslims believe (know) that Jesus PBUH did not die on the cross, he was lifted to the heavens, a space craft?

Angel Gabriel picked him up?
He will return on earth,


There is probably some truth in the origins of these 'categories'. However I have not seen a shred of evidence, and admittedly on your part as well. I wouldn't trust a word from Al-Ghazali or the like for anything. I do not need another person to use his own mind to interpret things for me. I have my own mind and my own interpretation. :)

Didn't I say that I don't rely on Al Ghazali? Never believed him, he maybe telling the truth, but I don't believe everything he says.
However these categories were reported by other scholars, and what the Prophet Mohamed PBUH has narrated that there are.

four categories.

You have the El Jinni (All)
You have the Aamar
You have Arwaah
You have Shaitan ( plurial Shayateen)
You finally have the Afreet


#

If one is mentioning the jinn purely of themselves, the are called jinni.*
#

If one is mentioning the jinn that live among mankind, they are called aamar whose plural is amaar.
#

If one is mentioning the ones that antagonize the young, they are called arwaah.
#

If one is mentioning the evil ones that antagonize humans they are called shaitan for the singular [and shayateen for plural].
#

If they cause even more harm and become strong, they are called afreet.

Now, these are the known ones, we are not talking about the ones we don't know, the other creatures.

What is interesting however the Jinns were created way before us humans.


The world of the jinn is an independent and separate world with its own distinct nature and features that are hidden from the world of humans. Jinns and humans have things in common, such as the ability to understand and choose between good and evil. The word jinn comes from the Arabic root meaning “hidden from sight”. Allah Almighty says: “… Verily he (shaytan) and his soldiers from the jinn or his tribe see you from where you cannot see them…” (Al-A`raf: 27)



by Sheikh M. S. Al-Munajjid, a prominent Saudi Muslim lecturer and author, who states:

“Allah Almighty has created certain creatures, some of them are known to us and some of them are not.

In his capacity as Allah’s vicegerent on earth, man is ordained by Allah to worship Him Alone without partners. Consequently, we should not get absorbed in stories about jinn, as it is not a form of worship.

The Qur’an and Sunnah indicate that jinn exist, and that there is a purpose for their existence in this life, which is to worship Allah Alone with no partner or associate. Allah Almighty says: “And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans, except they should worship Me (Alone).” (Adh-Dhariyat: 56)






I don't believe in tafsir, either. :)


Why not?
What is Tafsir for you?


Both are forms of contamination.

That depends who's tafsir it is of course, some people truly dedicated their lives, to do good and share their knowledge, yes there are others who are deceivers.


No, you wouldn't. Would you be able to quote one verse that attributes Salat to a mandatory physical act. I'm quite skeptical.


Yes but just to show that a Hadith is simply what the Prophet PBUH has narrated, did, acted up on etc..

Some hadiths cannot be traced back to him, they are dismissed, but if a hadith is traced all the way back to the prophet, then it's a valid and authetic hadeeth.
There are many independant researchers throughout the ages who reached the same source, so some narrators have been credited for their work.

If you don't believe in Hadiths then a lot of things will be missing, as I said before starting by the Salat and many other things that are not specified in the Qu'ran.
They have been mentioned however but not in details, on how to perform a Salat, what do you do before, when a woman has her per mentruel periods can't pray until it's all over little things like these, can only be found in Hadiths.

So, as a Muslim I do believe in Hadiths as well as the Qu'ran, as I believe they go hand in hand.




I'm sure they are, because otherwise the scholars and clerics would have no other way of enforcing their interpretations, rules, regulations, and laws.

Best,
M
As I said before there are fake ones deceivers, hypocrites and liars but some are genuine and honest about what they do.

They give interpretation, but others have to see that it's genuine, it's a life time study, you don't become a scholar overnight, but I do agree on one thing, they are humans so we have to be careful who to trust and to not trust.

[tjohn]

Did you ask them?
I thought you were human not an insect, now you compare yourself to an insect, an animal, a tree?We are all part of the same. Dare I say it, all part of the whole? Then of course a bee is not the same as me, nor a tree but we are all part of the Universe. BTW that's a reason I do not eat meat.

Trees don't talk either, they don't walk, they don't post on DI's forum:rolleyes:
Again you are assuming, "We assume they don't pray, we don't know"
Can you prove it?
Can you prove it? Then I thought you just said that the trees don't talk. I guess they do in a way, don't you just love the sound of trees, when blowing in the breeze? Lovely isn't it?
For what it's worth, it is mentioned in the Qu'ran, that everything in the heavens and on earth prays to God and that includes the planets and the galaxies.

If that is what the Qur'an says it would be very interesting. Can you find the verse for me and do "copy and paste"? It could be one of those clues I mentioned a bit back and if so, it fits in with what I have been saying about the Universe, that the Universe is Conscious and is 'talking' to itself, i.e. processing information.

There is both order and chaos in the Universe and that's why we argue... we are part of the Universe which by talking is trying to sort things out. Make any sense?

Or do you think that God is a 'man' in the sky? Well I guess you might, because you say that God is he - whilst at the same time, the Qur'an says that Allah is "We".... strange that.

But I tell you, I am not going to be sticking my bum in the air five times a day! :D Nor continually reading the Qur'an nor going to a Mosque or a church to get my head filled with doctrines and Religion that cause people to think they are specifically chosen by God which causes confusion and conflict in the world.

Do you think I was born with this book in my hand? We were not born with a Religion and your supposed perfect God, must have made a mistake if 'he' has to correct us.

I have told you that I went to search for it, I had to think, this BOOK didn't jump at me, I had to find it, and examine, put it to the test, challenge it, again John it's your assumption that I am following it blindly, which I could say the same thing about your belief.Difference is, I didn't get my 'belief' from any specific Book and I prefer to call it a theory which is based on logic and what can be observed. That Book you have, causes conflict because of the way people interpret it and that's what I mean by a Religion; an interpretation of a Book with it's doctrines and rules that divide people and even whole nations into 'us and them' - you know, the us goodies and them baddies who have a different Religion or sect? As I keep saying, we were not born with a Religion and we would be much better off without it.

You're following your belief blindly diregarding other possibilities.
See? It works both ways.Then try to see it my way for a change. :)
You can think without the doctrine of religion, but you have embraced another doctrine (Assuming religion is a doctrine a view that I don't share)But my 'doctrine' if you want to call it that, does not make me go out and hurt other people, because my 'doctrine' says that we are all part of the whole and by having a mind of our own, we can use our mind and decide to live in peace. God knows we could do with some peace in the world.

Religion and the book are one, the religion sprung from the book what's in the book is a religion.
I am not convinced that you fully understand the meaning of religion, I am having doubts here..:confused: No, different Religions or sects come from the same Books because of the way people interpret them.

John please stop the "I do not hate, I hate your religion" I don't care if you hate me or not, I really couldn't care less, so stop this nonsense and stick to the debate, I am not at all interested in your care or love, we are here to debate if you can debate go ahead, if not we stop it right here.Sorry it was part of the debate seeing as you were saying or implying that I hate you. I was answering you on that point. And besides, I know there's a difference between what people really are and what they have been taught through their Religion.

I have dealt with you before John, I know exactly what you are and who you are, I have a pretty good picture of who you are so don't waste your energy in repeating the same things time and time again, I ain't buying it anymore.But don't you say the same things over and over, when people have already given you reasonable answers? Let me give you some good advice. Mellow out a bit, don't take it too personally. Think about the ducks on the pond. Don't we just love them and doesn't it sound so funny, when they go quack quack quack? :) Said sincerely, I am not taking the piss.

The next questions of yours I will answer but so you don't get too offended, I will put a question mark at the end of my answers.

Right, what did religion do to me exactly?Brainwash you? Make you think that the real Truth can be contained in a Book?

Why do you think I am a slave ? Who's slave?Religions slave? The teachers of Religion slave?

What is it that you can do and I can't?What is it that you can do that I can't? But tell you something, I know what love means and I know I need love and I know that everyone does? How about you?

Why don't you ever answer questions??I do answer questions but when someone has already answered your questions, why should it have to be repeated?

By the way, what was that specific question you say I have not answered? I asked you to ask me that but so far you haven't.

Yes, that why people should learn their religion and don't rely on any man to interpret religion to them.
Allah encourages people to read the Qu'ran, because he wants people to be aware for themselves and not rely entirely on "Scholars".So you don't go to a Mosque and listen to a guy there expounding an interpretation? Good for you then!

Why don't you give me an example where this book told me what to think or what to feel?I shouldn't have to, because it's quite obvious that you follow your Book which has been interpreted into a Religion. For example, you have said that your Book is your Religion. Another example is that you have said that your Religion is you - well, it's not, I know that at least.

You keep repeating the same things over and over and over, but when I ask you to provide any evidence you jump to soemthing else, why can't you stay on the same subject???I do not jump to something else - what I sometimes do is give an illustration in the hope that you will 'get it'.

Show me don't tell me, show ME Just did. :)

No why do you use the "Your", can't you just say Mohamed?Yes I could do that though it wouldn't be very accurate because as I said, he's not my Mohammed in the sense that I do not follow his alleged words.

a Religion is one thing a human being (Mohamed) is another.Oh I do agree.When you say your Mohamed if there are more than one, no I'll tell you what it means, when you use this kind of language, it is talking down to people, to try and point at the somewhere down there (at least in your head) you're trying to infuriate me with your little comments.No, it is your Mohammed when you follow him. It is not meant as an insult, when I say it is not my Mohammed when I do no follow all of his words.

Sometime I believe you have been trained in NLP, the way you point a fingerSorry, I do not know what NLP means!

You choose not to be destructive through religious deception?
Which deception is that?
Which destruction?
Can you point to a specific thing that is a deception or destructive?
Fair question isn't it?It is a fair question but do you not agree that Religion as in interpretations of the Books divide people and cause conflict???

Can you then answer these questions in which you seem to be very sure of

Deception
&
Destruction

If you have any evidence or proof let's hear it.Deception almost always equals some form of destruction, don't you agree?

[adbasque]

We are all part of the same. Dare I say it, all part of the whole? Then of course a bee is not the same as me, nor a tree but we are all part of the Universe. BTW that's a reason I do not eat meat.

Yes we are all from one his name is Adam, we are all part of this Universe and?
How's that prove there's no God or religion isn't real?

If you do not eat meat that's entirely up to you, then in that case stop eating
because everything you eat was or is alive :)
Or because it doesn't have a face or it doesn't move you think it's not a living thing?


Can you prove it? Then I thought you just said that the trees don't talk. I guess they do in a way, don't you just love the sound of trees, when blowing in the breeze? Lovely isn't it?
If that is what the Qur'an says it would be very interesting. Can you find the verse for me and do "copy and paste"? It could be one of those clues I mentioned a bit back and if so, it fits in with what I have been saying about the Universe, that the Universe is Conscious and is 'talking' to itself, i.e. processing information.

Can you prove they talk?
Yes when they blow and yes it's beautiful, what makes them blow in the breeze?

There is both order and chaos in the Universe and that's why we argue... we are part of the Universe which by talking is trying to sort things out. Make any sense?

Oh is this new to you?
We know there's order and chaos that is the whole point, to follow order and not chaos, we know who's behind the chaos.


Or do you think that God is a 'man' in the sky? Well I guess you might, because you say that God is he - whilst at the same time, the Qur'an says that Allah is "We".... strange that.
You're the one who believes God is some big guy in the sky, we have already discussed the "We" and the "He".

If you learn Arabic maybe you'll get a better understanding of the language,
Allah is an entity and Being, he uses We as in the royal we for us humans, as in great, an Allegorical meaning, he doesn't mean "we" a bunch of us.

He made it very clear he doesn't want to be associated with anything as a matter of fact this is THE biggest sin is to associate him with anything or anyone.

Allah created everything, he is not part of everything, if he was part of everything it means he doesn't control what he is part of.


But I tell you, I am not going to be sticking my bum in the air five times a day! :D Nor continually reading the Qur'an nor going to a Mosque or a church to get my head filled with doctrines and Religion that cause people to think they are specifically chosen by God which causes confusion and conflict in the world.

It's your bum do whatever you want with it, it doesn't concern me at all, nobody is asking you to read the Qu'ran, nobody is asking you to do anything John, you're the ones asking us to follow you.

What people think is one thing, what religion teaches is another, I don't feel special or chosen, so this is what you want to believe not what the religion says.
It doesn't cause confusion or conflict, the conflict is within you, inside you, nothing to do with me, I have never asked you to do anything or else, did I?

you're the one here doing the asking and telling us what we should and shouldn't do ;)



We were not born with a Religion and your supposed perfect God, must have made a mistake if 'he' has to correct us.

As a matter of fact, we are born with religion, and we are not born with a lot of things in this life, but we learn things and we decide what to keep and what not.


Difference is, I didn't get my 'belief' from any specific Book and I prefer to call it a theory which is based on logic and what can be observed. That Book you have, causes conflict because of the way people interpret it and that's what I mean by a Religion; an interpretation of a Book with it's doctrines and rules that divide people and even whole nations into 'us and them' - you know, the us goodies and them baddies who have a different Religion or sect? As I keep saying, we were not born with a Religion and we would be much better off without it.

That's what you want us to believe, you weren't born with this logic, you developed it as you grew older and you fed this logic from information you gathered throughout your life, meaning you read other books and listened to others.
The interpretation is there, who said you have to listen to what anyone else has to say? You've got a brain so why can't you do it yourself?

We are not following what others say we get our information and we make our own minds, I went to search for it, it didn't come to my door.




Then try to see it my way for a change. :)
But my 'doctrine' if you want to call it that, does not make me go out and hurt other people, because my 'doctrine' says that we are all part of the whole and by having a mind of our own, we can use our mind and decide to live in peace. God knows we could do with some peace in the world.

See what your way? Your way is to abandon religion, forget it John don't even try :)
Islam doesn't make me go out and hurt people, I have my own doctrine thank you, you can keep yours or share it with others who share the same interest as you.
I am using my mind very well thank you and I have decided to live in peace since I was born.
I haven't hurt anyone, if that religion of mine was teaching me to hurt people I would've done it by now, after 25 years, don't you think?

If religion was brainwashing me to hurt others I would have done it now.

Yes we could do with some peace in the world starting by letting people live their lives as they please, it's a good starting point :)


No, different Religions or sects come from the same Books because of the way people interpret them.

The original "religion" came from the same source "Allah" God.


Sorry it was part of the debate seeing as you were saying or implying that I hate you. I was answering you on that point. And besides, I know there's a difference between what people really are and what they have been taught through their Religion.

Yes, I became a better person
Again John you keep avoiding my question and then three pages later you ask me what was my question again?

You keep insinuating and implying that religion

Is destructive
People hurt others
blah blah, where is your proof?

You haven't proved it John, you proved that "men" can hurt one another, which we all know.
Human being always hurt each other, 90% of time it has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, and the 10% (I am being generous here) are the wars and conflicts orhestrated by those "In the name" of religion.

Can we skip this from now on please, we have covered it a million time, it doesn't matter how many times you


But don't you say the same things over and over, when people have already given you reasonable answers? Let me give you some good advice. Mellow out a bit, don't take it too personally. Think about the ducks on the pond. Don't we just love them and doesn't it sound so funny, when they go quack quack quack? :) Said sincerely, I am not taking the piss.

I say the same things over and over because your questions are the same over and over again John that's just it.
You ask the same question you will get the same answer because it's the truth.

I don't take it personally unless it was intended that way.
Mellow down? I am cool I simply reply to what I read and see, you're the one who's attacking my belief and want me to be like you not the other way around.
Yes, they are lovely so is the rest of nature, I was brought up in the country most of my life was spent with nature even when I was abroad.
I had more animals than a zoo.
I know you're not taking the piss, I know when you're taking the piss and when you're sincere, don't worry.


The next questions of yours I will answer but so you don't get too offended, I will put a question mark at the end of my answers.

Brainwash you? Make you think that the real Truth can be contained in a Book?

Religions slave? The teachers of Religion slave?

What is it that you can do that I can't? But tell you something, I know what love means and I know I need love and I know that everyone does? How about you?

You say I am brainwashed, your opinion just as it is my opinion you're brainwashed to reject religion, so you haven't really answered it with an valid argument, it's just your opinion mate.

That Book is not written by JK Rowlings, it's a divine book
He knows you and me better than we know ourselves, he knows our bodies and minds better than we do.

Religion's slave? How?
For instance
To look after an orphan?
To look out for your neighbour?
To help the weak?
To love one another?
To speak the truth?
To fight evil wherever you see it?
To expose lies?
To not transgress on people's lands?
To not hurt anyone?
Is this the brainwashing you're talking about?

Who are these religion teachers that I am a salve of?
Do they know me? Do I know them? Do they get something from me?
Or should I ignore what I mentioned above because it's clearly the fundamental teachings of religion?
So I need to ignore them and do the opposite?



I do answer questions but when someone has already answered your questions, why should it have to be repeated?

No I asked you John, I haven't seen anybody answering it, maybe someone has given his opinion, I am debating with you, aren't I?


By the way, what was that specific question you say I have not answered? I asked you to ask me that but so far you haven't.

John, don't ask me 300 pages later what was the question, I have asked you several questions so, I can't remember them right now.
It doesn't matter anymore.


So you don't go to a Mosque and listen to a guy there expounding an interpretation? Good for you then!

I do go to the mosque, I do listen and I make my own mind up.
I don't have to listen and accept what I hear, unless it makes perfect sense to me, and I get proof of what he saying is true.


I shouldn't have to, because it's quite obvious that you follow your Book which has been interpreted into a Religion. For example, you have said that your Book is your Religion. Another example is that you have said that your Religion is you - well, it's not, I know that at least.

Religion is part of me, it's not me, but part of me a big part even.
The religion derived from that Book which came from Allah (My maker)



I do not jump to something else - what I sometimes do is give an illustration in the hope that you will 'get it'.

You do John, you have jumped for one thing to another, it's not the first time either, I know what you want me to get, but you don't get what I mean.

What you want me to get makes no sense to me whatsoever, what you want me to get is to dump religion and live my life without a reason and then die and that's it end of story, what do you think Satan want?

The problem is you don't have a great understanding of what is religion, why we are here, why we live for a short while and then we die.
Maybe one day you'll understand these crucial points only then you might start to see clearly, at the moment, what you're suggesting is no different then a cat, a dog etc.. without any purpose in life or in the after life.


Just did. :)

No John you haven't shown me anything, you are telling me, there's a difference.
You haven't shown a single thing, you are telling me what I should be doing instead, this is not showing, but telling :)


Yes I could do that though it wouldn't be very accurate because as I said, he's not my Mohammed in the sense that I do not follow his alleged words.

First of all they are NOT his words, that's what I mean when I say you haven't got a real clue what is in the religion, you're assuming and nothing more.

If you knew what is in the Qu'ran and Hadeeths you would know that it is impossible for any man or Jinn to come up with somethings like these.

Unfortunately I don't give lectures about the Qu'ran, but unless you read it and understand it, you won't get anything, it will all go over your head.

I follow religion the word and God's commands in this life, Mohamed is a man who was Allah's messenger nothing more.
He was a good man, good human qualities, when he died his companion (Best friend) said to the Muslims if you were worshipping Mohamed, Mohamed has just died, but if you were worshipping Allah, Allah is alive and never dies.

We do not worship Mohamed PBUH but we worship the one God (Allah)



Read it and think about it.


Oh I do agree.No, it is your Mohammed when you follow him. It is not meant as an insult, when I say it is not my Mohammed when I do no follow all of his words.

His words or the word's of Allah, he is only the media between us and Allah.
They are not his words.
Even in the Qu'ran it says he doesn't talk for the sake of it, every word he says was passed on to him by Allah


Sorry, I do not know what NLP means!


Maybe you don't know it, but the method you use sometimes sounds like an NLP


It is a fair question but do you not agree that Religion as in interpretations of the Books divide people and cause conflict???

Maybe we are getting somewhere here, I agree that religion was used by the few to control the masses, but that is because the masses didn't bother to get to know their religion.

Because they put their "Trust" in someone elses interpretation, they never question whoever is preaching to them.

You believe George Bush is a Christian? I don't, I know he is everything but a good Christian or man for that matter, but why does he claim to have received his orders from God? Because he want people like you to blame that God and that religion for what he's doing.

He's and will be forgotten but that God and religion will remain as the evil on earth, do you get this?

Do you think Tony Blair is a real Christian? He couldn't give a rat's a** about religion or God I mean our God, he has his own, which is Lucifer (Satan)



Deception almost always equals some form of destruction, don't you agree?

Deception is a destruction at a very slow pace.
I don't disagree with this, deception is all around us.

I don't want you to think I am being rude, I am not rude, you can disagree with me as much as you like, but show me respect and I will treat you the same way.

I am not being rude to people simply because they disagree with me, I can be rude when people show no respect and treat you like an idiot.
If I make a list of things and people whom I disagree with, it'll be as long as my arm.
But I treat them with respect so long as they do the same.

[majorion]

that the Universe is Conscious and is 'talking' to itself, i.e. processing information.


Talking to itself? Maybe, but if that were true, then our existence could be the Universe trying to understand itself. Sentience could be defined in this instance as a profound awareness created in a form allowing discovery.

If you knew what is in the Qu'ran and Hadeeths you would know that it is impossible for any man or Jinn to come up with somethings like these.


I don't find it impossible. I'd say there have been many others whom brought their own form of revelation. Billy Eduard Albert Meier of Switzerland, as one example:

http://www.theyfly.com/prophecies/prophecies.htm

Though this case is not without it's fair share of contamination of course. ;)

Best,
M

[adbasque]

I don't find it impossible. I'd say there have been many others whom brought their own form of revelation. Billy Eduard Albert Meier of Switzerland, as one example:

http://www.theyfly.com/prophecies/prophecies.htm

Though this case is not without it's fair share of contamination of course. ;)

Best,
M

Yes I know there will be a lot of people claiming to be prophets and so on, and whatever argument I give you won't believe it .

We have been warned about these people, there will come a day where many people claim to be prophets.
The answer to this, it's been discussed and as I said before.

Taamul M'aa El Jinn in other words they get information from the Jinns, in which these listen to what's going on, sometimes they even instigate it.

Let's say the Elite are planning something these Jinns will be listening remember you can't see them but they can see you, and you can only see them if they want to appear.

What is Satan's main agenda? Is to drive people as far away from God's religion as possible.

And the way he got his information it's still not clear, he is not the first one to have predicted these things either, as you mentioned quite few people have.

But what the prophets have done not only they predicted these things hundreds of years ago, but they also brought a lot of scientific evidence.

Anyway this wasn't about revelation, I was talking about the fact nobody can come up with a book like the Qu'ran because it's not made by a human being or any other creature, it can only be sent by the creator, all of the wealth of information it contains.

For centuries people tried to duplicate it and create a similar book it was impossible, and these are experts in the field they simply had to give up.

It was a challenge by Allah to people and the Jinn to try and create anything even closer.

I don't doubt that he got his information from somewhere, either the Jinns or he had an inside sources.

PS: I think I need to take some time off from all of this, my head is saturated, I have been replying to many posts here, I feel drained.

So if I don't reply in the next posts, do excuse me, I am not being rude just tired.

Thanks to you all.

Take care
Peace to everyone.

[sadukan]

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs29/i/2009/277/c/f/Comparative_Metaphysics_by_XN0R.jpg
Q.E.D.
You can all stop arguing now.
k.thx, bye.

sadukan.

"over it is 19 (http://www.virtuescience.com/19.html)"[74:30]
(DiYu - 18 Levels of Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyu#Eighteen_levels_of_Hell))
Philip LeMarchand (http://www.pyramid-gallery.com/)
http://www.pyramid-gallery.com/LamentTN.jpg
Go (game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[flickflack]

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs29/i/2009/277/c/f/Comparative_Metaphysics_by_XN0R.jpg
Q.E.D.
You can all stop arguing now.
k.thx, bye.

sadukan.

"over it is 19 (http://www.virtuescience.com/19.html)"[74:30]
(DiYu - 18 Levels of Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyu#Eighteen_levels_of_Hell))
Philip LeMarchand (http://www.pyramid-gallery.com/)
http://www.pyramid-gallery.com/LamentTN.jpg
Wei-Qi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29)

Well, there is not much arguing on this thread anymore. Most of us have left it, and especially the creator of the thread.

[mephibosheth]

nobody can come up with a book like the Qu'ran because it's not made by a human being or any other creature, it can only be sent by the creator, all of the wealth of information it contains.


Fairly ironic, then that:



If you don't believe in Hadiths then a lot of things will be missing, as I said before starting by the Salat and many other things that are not specified in the Qu'ran.
They have been mentioned however but not in details, on how to perform a Salat, what do you do before, when a woman has her per mentruel periods can't pray until it's all over little things like these, can only be found in Hadiths.


I suppose God couldn't be bothered to add such details in the book that apparently perfected his religion for human beings. Perhaps they were meant for the sequel? In the meantime, we are required to pay attention to the writings of men in order to supplement the religion of God because God's own book is insufficient for us to follow as is.

what this suggests is either that the Qur'an is not of divine origin or nothing in the hadeeth is a divine command. If practices contained in hadeeth were divine commands, then God would have seen fit to put them in his book and not leave it to chance that men would publish a sufficient addendum for people to live by.

But all this by-the-by...

8)

[lcr123]

May Allah Guide the ignorant, peace.

[picha]

May Allah Guide the ignorant, peace.

Are we ignorant because it says non believers are ignorant in the koran? I muat admit that the high breasted houris are quite tempting, although I have not been able to find out if they do reverse cowgirl or not yet.

[eternal_spirit]

Originally Posted by lcr123 http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059137226#post1059137226)
May Allah Guide the ignorant, peace.

Allah is guiding the ignorant (Muslims)!

[loveisthelaw]

Yes, ignorant bliss, and we love it here :)

[elirien]

Allah is guiding the ignorant (Muslims)!

God deceives the ignorant. Every time any one says "it is this" or "it is that" that one is deceived by itself. For example if anyone says "I am a truth seeker" it is deceived to the very simple fact that it puts an illusory limitation on what one is. It doesn't mean that it is complete innovation but how could a piece of cheese describe a Sunday "r and r" so to speak. It is kind of silly isn't it?

Here comes the kicker as they say, this so to speak deception is as real as one feeds it and it, by it's very nature dies out to reveal the truth. It is called by some disillusionment which is not particularly a favorite amongst ignorant people or adolescents as we like to call them. This adolescence has nothing to do with the body. It is just another name for fascination itself.

[hobo]

May Allah Guide the ignorant, peace.

May people wake up to the evils of Islam:

The return 1/5 dispatches undercover mosque

http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=601

Children of Hamas:

Children of Hamas - YouTube

Beneath the veil:

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 1 of 5) - YouTube

Forced to marry:

BBC - Forced To Marry. TruthTube.Tv. - YouTube

Wafa Sultan & Barry Lynn:

Wafa Sultan & Barry Lynn 1:2.wmv - YouTube

Wafa Sultan & Barry Lynn 2:2 - YouTube

Exorcisms performed on Chechen stolen brides:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10913297

[adbasque]

lol

[hobo]

lol

What´s so funny?

[adbasque]

What´s so funny?

lol you are :)

[loveisthelaw]

lol you are :)

lol

[hobo]

lol you are :)

Since you are so humorously inclined, here´s some really funny stuff to laugh about:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/death-to-all-juice.html

[loveisthelaw]

Since you are so humorously inclined, here´s some really funny stuff to laugh about:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/death-to-all-juice.html

I no longer read Zionist propaganda, thanks all the same.

You will say "it is not Zionist propaganda" and I will retort saying "but it is, do you know who owns the site?" and you will say "no" and I will say "well therein lays a lesson".

[adbasque]

I no longer read Zionist propaganda, thanks all the same.

You will say "it is not Zionist propaganda" and I will retort saying "but it is, do you know who owns the site?" and you will say "no" and I will say "well therein lays a lesson".

He doesn't even know who is Hamas, HizBollah and so on, he doesn't even know why is Hamas there, he doesn't know the reason of its creation, and where The Saudis come from who put them there and why.

I wouldn't waste my time personally

Salam ^^

[loveisthelaw]

He doesn't even know who is Hamas, HizBollah and so on, he doesn't even know why is Hamas there, he doesn't know the reason of its creation, and where The Saudis come from who put them there and why.

I wouldn't waste my time personally

Salam ^^

Wa 3lykom assalam akh :) Insha Allah you have having a good Ramadhaan.

[adbasque]

Wa 3lykom assalam akh :) Insha Allah you have having a good Ramadhaan.

Yes Brother Hamdoulah thanks the same to you too Insha Allah

[picha]

I hope you all enjoy your pagan ritual, and it's got nothing to do with moon worship even though ramadan starting time goes on the phase of the moon.

[adbasque]

I hope you all enjoy your pagan ritual, and it's got nothing to do with moon worship even though ramadan starting time does on the phase of the moon.

lol

[hobo]

I no longer read Zionist propaganda, thanks all the same.

You will say "it is not Zionist propaganda" and I will retort saying "but it is, do you know who owns the site?" and you will say "no" and I will say "well therein lays a lesson".

If you would make the effort to click on the link, you will see a picture of a muslim man from a demonstration holding a sign.(Not much to read, but hilariously funny) Do you really blame his ridiculous spelling-skills on the zionists??? Man oh man.:rolleyes:

[hobo]

I don´t think Ayaan Hirsi Ali´s dislike of Islam is based on ignorance.
Quite the contrary, she knows what she´s talking about.
And this articulate and courageous woman not only addresses the problems of Islam, but also try to suggest a constructive solution:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali Australian Interview (1/2) - YouTube

Ayaan Hirsi Ali Australian Interview (2/2) - YouTube

[adbasque]

I don´t think Ayaan Hirsi Ali´s dislike of Islam is based on ignorance.
Quite the contrary, she knows what she´s talking about.
And this articulate and courageous woman not only addresses the problems of Islam, but also try to suggest a constructive solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CbjhNWNC3o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W9Wk66wUkI&feature=related

Yeah she knows a great deal about Islam, you can tell from her leading points.

lol

On one hand she agrees that Muslims are individuals, and she agrees that Mutilation, and oppression of women for instance predate Islam, IT's a CULTURAL thing it has nothing whatsoever to do with islam.

We've always said that, I have visited many Muslim countries I have never heard, seen , or witnessed a female circumcision for example.

Oh yes she knows a great deal about Islam, what she is knows is to talk at one level about Islam.

And above all she mentioned a white man's racism and sexism and so on..
that's another level she doesn't see like most people here and everywhere else that it's not "people" who are bad whoever they are, they are ignorant and let themselves to be dragged into hatred, total ignorance and hating one another while the big guys get on with their satanic rituals and enslaving all of us.

Muslims ARE NOT Islam, some Muslims are good they practice the true religion, some muslims are ignorant and mix their cultural ideology with their religion, some muslims or call themselves muslims deliberately try to tarnish Islam.

Now if you're genuine go on and find out about true Islam, don't judge Islam by some ignorant that you see.

Remember cultures predate Islam, Islam has removed a lot of inhuman behaviours, She talks about Saudia Arabia, that's a joke, Who are the Saudis?
Who put them there? for what reason?

And above all in Islam there's NO monarchy for a start is Saudia Arabia a monarchy? YES, so why is that I wonder??



Who put the Saudi Family back in 1931 as Royals?
Check out history and you will be surprised what you might find :)

Now if it's just posting for the heck of it, Sorry I have better things to do with my time, we have discussed these subjects time and time again, but as usual people only like to see what they want to see.

As for some trolls here, all they have been spreading is hatred and try to mislead with their Zionist website's lies and anti Islamic views.

[picha]

Is this a zionist website adbasque? http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html

[nicolaj]

Is this a zionist website adbasque? http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html




H induism tells us that the "Self" which dwells in each and every being in this universe is one and the same with Godhead. Every soul in this uinverse is a reflection of this Supreme Self. Thus every individual has the potential to realize Godhead by the realization of this "Self".

Realization of the "Self" is possible only when someone is free to think on his/her own and act accordingly. The most heinous and barbaric crime in this world would be to stop an individual to think freely. And when such a crime is legalised in the form of a religion, one can easily imagine how disastrous it can be. Islam is such a religion.

Islam imposes a threat to the whole world which is far worse than deforestation, nuclear destruction or AIDS. It is an insidious, devilish disease creeping into the veins of the world. Every individual must realise the destructive and evil nature of this religion, for it eats away at the very foundation of humanity which is an individual's ability to think individually and act accordingly. The following articles logically analyse different aspects of this so called religion and bring forth the true nature of Islam.


True it is a cancer that needs to be destroyed at it's root.

[adbasque]

Is this a zionist website adbasque? http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html

Yes Picha, you and I have nothing to say to each other just ignore me and I'll do the same, it's better for all of us.

In the meantime go and search for history and read very carefully what happened when it really happened and why for instance, it's a good start.

Yes like the 600 "Jews" that Mohammed allegedly Slaughtered , remember that one?
and many other half assed facts that these Zionists were pumping into your head, I am not a biased person, I was not a believer before, I was an Antagonist towards religion.

Now if you want to learn about religion, go and really ecucate yourself, put your pride to one side and learn from different sources, if you're happy to spill venom go right ahead, as far as I am concerned, after few months and few hundred posts later I have nothing more to say.

I am not imposing anything on anyone, why can't you do the same?
I am not asking you to become a Muslim, so why are so bothered with my well being?
What happened to freedom of choice? You believe in that don't you?

So let people be, let them believe in paegan rituals, let them be ignorant, you tried with your generous nature to help them out, didn't you? But they refuse to listen, so just call it a day and get on with your own life.

There are nearly 2 billions of them, do you think you have a chance in changing them all? and more and more are joining, so my advice to you leave people alone.

Maybe I am happy being ignorant? Why are you trying to take away this happiness and inner peace?
:)
Take care (No Hard feelings)

[hobo]

Yeah she knows a great deal about Islam, you can tell from her leading points.

lol

On one hand she agrees that Muslims are individuals, and she agrees that Mutilation, and oppression of women for instance predate Islam, IT's a CULTURAL thing it has nothing whatsoever to do with islam.

We've always said that, I have visited many Muslim countries I have never heard, seen , or witnessed a female circumcision for example.

Oh yes she knows a great deal about Islam, what she is knows is to talk at one level about Islam.

And above all she mentioned a white man's racism and sexism and so on..
that's another level she doesn't see like most people here and everywhere else that it's not "people" who are bad whoever they are, they are ignorant and let themselves to be dragged into hatred, total ignorance and hating one another while the big guys get on with their satanic rituals and enslaving all of us.

Muslims ARE NOT Islam, some Muslims are good they practice the true religion, some muslims are ignorant and mix their cultural ideology with their religion, some muslims or call themselves muslims deliberately try to tarnish Islam.

Now if you're genuine go on and find out about true Islam, don't judge Islam by some ignorant that you see.

Remember cultures predate Islam, Islam has removed a lot of inhuman behaviours, She talks about Saudia Arabia, that's a joke, Who are the Saudis?
Who put them there? for what reason?

And above all in Islam there's NO monarchy for a start is Saudia Arabia a monarchy? YES, so why is that I wonder??



Who put the Saudi Family back in 1931 as Royals?
Check out history and you will be surprised what you might find :)

Now if it's just posting for the heck of it, Sorry I have better things to do with my time, we have discussed these subjects time and time again, but as usual people only like to see what they want to see.

As for some trolls here, all they have been spreading is hatred and try to mislead with their Zionist website's lies and anti Islamic views.

Allright adbasque, I hear this over and over when the negative aspects of Islam are pointed out; that it has nothing to do with Islam. Fine, then give me an example of the true, pure, Islam. Where can it be seen? Where is it practised? Who is an immaculate example of a true muslim in your opinion? I would really like to know.

But what difference does it make, if the muslims coming to the west themselves are convinced that their cultural "specialties" like female genital mutilation, honour-killings, forced marriages, child-brides, medieval dress-code, misogyni , stonings etc. are part and parcel of their religion?

And why do the "true" moslems show so little initiative to correct the bad apples in their own ranks?

Allegedly one has to study the quran in arabic to get the "true" Islam, but I don´t want to go that far. The fact is: moslems come here and therefore I think they have at least half of the responsability to understand the culture they´ve migrated to + make themselves understood.Preferably by example.(Illustrious example that is).

Frankly I don´t believe that there is some mysterious, islamic truth that is so super-abstract, arcane or profound that it cannot be translated. It has been said that truth is always simple, so it seems a little like seaching for the true Islam is like searching for the emperors new clothes.But I´d like to hear if you can give me just one example of a piece of un-translatable islamic truth.I really would.

If Islam really contained so wonderful and unique truths,why has it not materialized into wonderful islamic societies? Instead moslems are fleeing to the west bringing their violence and obduracy with them.
And can we please keep the zionists out of the equation this time. We know they are there and what they´re doing, but this doesn´t mean that we´re exempted of personal responsability.

I don´t post for the heck of it, but because I´m concerned about the way things are going in my own country and elsewhere where there is a big influx of immigrants from moslem countries. And because I´ve had some pretty appalling encounters with moslem men myself.

And because the OP gave the impression that he wanted to discuss Islam...

[elirien]

Allright adbasque, I hear this over and over when the negative aspects of Islam are pointed out; that it has nothing to do with Islam. Fine, then give me an example of the true, pure, Islam. Where can it be seen? Where is it practised? Who is an immaculate example of a true muslim in your opinion? I would really like to know.

But what difference does it make, if the muslims coming to the west themselves are convinced that their cultural "specialties" like female genital mutilation, honour-killings, forced marriages, child-brides, medieval dress-code, misogyni , stonings etc. are part and parcel of their religion?

And why do the "true" moslems show so little initiative to correct the bad apples in their own ranks?

Allegedly one has to study the quran in arabic to get the "true" Islam, but I don´t want to go that far. The fact is: moslems come here and therefore I think they have at least half of the responsability to understand the culture they´ve migrated to + make themselves understood.Preferably by example.(Illustrious example that is).

Frankly I don´t believe that there is some mysterious, islamic truth that is so super-abstract, arcane or profound that it cannot be translated. It has been said that truth is always simple, so it seems a little like seaching for the true Islam is like searching for the emperors new clothes.But I´d like to hear if you can give me just one example of a piece of un-translatable islamic truth.I really would.

If Islam really contained so wonderful and unique truths,why has it not materialized into wonderful islamic societies? Instead moslems are fleeing to the west bringing their violence and obduracy with them.
And can we please keep the zionists out of the equation this time. We know they are there and what they´re doing, but this doesn´t mean that we´re exempted of personal responsability.

I don´t post for the heck of it, but because I´m concerned about the way things are going in my own country and elsewhere where there is a big influx of immigrants from moslem countries. And because I´ve had some pretty appalling encounters with moslem men myself.

And because the OP gave the impression that he wanted to discuss Islam...

If you want to research this matter you would start to research the English meanings of some words. Just for informational sake or mental entertainment.

Why does what is generally translated as unbeliever also means veiler?

What does a veil do to any body?

Simple things. You could entertain yourself by comparing that to your opinion about (mass) bodily behavior.

In the end it doesn't quite matter because the main question in any religious or philosophical endeavor is "who am I". You could if you like, have a look at the book itself not from websites but a paper print.

If you continue to research it on a historical level you will see tons of wise Sufi's, some weird traditions which perhaps make no sense ever, architecture, mental health studies through music and many other details.

We will see if you feel motivated.

[adbasque]

Allright adbasque, I hear this over and over when the negative aspects of Islam are pointed out; that it has nothing to do with Islam. Fine, then give me an example of the true, pure, Islam. Where can it be seen? Where is it practised? Who is an immaculate example of a true muslim in your opinion? I would really like to know.

There are a lot of muslims out there who are true muslims, do you honestly expect the media to show a good muslim?? Come on lol

Go out and meet Muslims and talk to them, and see for yourself



But what difference does it make, if the muslims coming to the west themselves are convinced that their cultural "specialties" like female genital mutilation, honour-killings, forced marriages, child-brides, medieval dress-code, misogyni , stonings etc. are part and parcel of their religion?



I am not defending muslims, every muslim is an individual, yes it is cultural
listen, why would become a Muslim?
I was not a Muslim, I was not a religious person for a longtime
Why in your opinion I became Muslim, I became a Muslim 4 years before I met any Muslim.

Ask yourself this question, I take it you're on DI's forum is because s somewhere you agree with what he talks about, right?

So you do agree that the media will never ever tell you the truth, so why do you think they are constantly reporting bad things about Islam?
If that was a mean of control as you call it or you think it is, wouldn't they be showing another face of Islam.
By showing you some savages out there and telling these are Muslims, and that is what Islam does

I am a Muslim, I know that Islam never ever encouraged any of these things, and female mutilation for instance predates Islam in many areas, and Islam has put a stop to these practices except where people doing them secretly
And please do me a huge favour don't quote to me ANY so called Muslim country there aren't Muslim countries, there are Muslims all over the world, but NOT ONE single government or state is leading with Islamic rules and laws not one and I know what I am talking about.

They are all corrupt governements, put there by the ptb for generations now.
Let's take Saudi Arabia for instance, do you know who the Saudis are??
Answer me this then, right?

In Islam there's no such thing as Monarchy, you don't believe me find out for yourself.

So why is there a Monarchy in Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Morroco and so on??
They were put there years ago to do exactly that.

To project to the outside world a false image of Islam.
Saudis were put to power by Britain back in the late 20s early 30s Why?


And why do the "true" moslems show so little initiative to correct the bad apples in their own ranks?

What can they do? You live under a dictatorship if you dare to do or say anything they will wipe you out and your entire family, you have no idea what it's like in those countries do you?

Do you think Husni Mubarak of Egypt is a Muslim??
Check him out and compare to what Islam teaches and you will see for yourself.

The Saudis are Muslims?? lol
What a joke they do the opposite of what Islam teaches
Morroco the same
there is no Muslim country in the world, people are Muslims some are good some are ignorant and some are bad and ignorant.



Allegedly one has to study the quran in arabic to get the "true" Islam, but I don´t want to go that far. The fact is: moslems come here and therefore I think they have at least half of the responsability to understand the culture they´ve migrated to + make themselves understood.Preferably by example.(Illustrious example that is).



Totally agree with you, but then, I can't speak for every Muslim, Islam teaches us to respect the law of the land you live in, and if you don't like it get the hell out of that country, they are NOT allowed to cause trouble or to try and change someone's culture to suit them.

But in my view this all media stiring as usual yes some people are just plain ignorant on both sides, intolerant and that's it.

Yes I agree with you they need to show and give a good example on how a good Muslim should behave!


Frankly I don´t believe that there is some mysterious, islamic truth that is so super-abstract, arcane or profound that it cannot be translated. It has been said that truth is always simple, so it seems a little like seaching for the true Islam is like searching for the emperors new clothes.But I´d like to hear if you can give me just one example of a piece of un-translatable islamic truth.I really would.

You can understand Islam and Quoran but sometimes some words or verses would mean something in Arabic but when translated the meaning could have a slight difference, I can't think of something right now on top of my head.

But when I come across something that has a slight difference from Arabic to English, I will let you know.



If Islam really contained so wonderful and unique truths,why has it not materialized into wonderful islamic societies? Instead moslems are fleeing to the west bringing their violence and obduracy with them.
And can we please keep the zionists out of the equation this time. We know they are there and what they´re doing, but this doesn´t mean that we´re exempted of personal responsability.

Another interesting question and good question even, ask yourself why is that?
Who's making sure that these countries will never see freedom, human rights, and remain under dictatorship regimes, why?


I don´t post for the heck of it, but because I´m concerned about the way things are going in my own country and elsewhere where there is a big influx of immigrants from moslem countries. And because I´ve had some pretty appalling encounters with moslem men myself.

Hang on a minute please, now some French were attacked by English Hooligans and thugs would like it if those people treat every English person the same??
Would you like it if you were called a thug or a hooligan? I am sure you neither, right?

You had some problems with some muslims men, are you sure they were Muslims, or is it just because they were brown, or they were called Mohamed and Abdel....??

Do you want me to show you how many Mohameds go to casinos, drink alcohol, pick prostitutes, use drugs, steal, etc..?

It doesn't mean anything, I am not just concerned with my country which is Britain I am concerned about this whole planet, and its population.
I am concerned about the human race.
We are all one, all human beings regardless of our differences, that is what makes this world interesting, imagine for one minute we all white or all black, or all dark skinned, etc.. this world would be boring.

Imagine all flowers are the same, all animals are the same and so on, what would become of this beautiful planet of ours?

Our diversity is our beauty, some people are nice, some are bad, some don't even know they are bad, some are thick, some intelligent, some are mean, and so on...

A Muslim is just a human being, he makes mistakes like everyone else, he is not some kind of an alien.
Yes I have known Atheists, not religious people who are 100 times nicer than some so called religious people and vice versa.


And because the OP gave the impression that he wanted to discuss Islam...

Yes at first that was nealy 2 years ago lol
Now I am really tired.

[kbeet]

i hate fatawas i hate islams 4 methods of converting. i hate the lies of the quran and the koran. i hate mohamid who made it a muslem law to kill non believers when and where you find them. i hate islam because its the birth place of terrorist. i hate terrorist. i hate v alqeada. all created from islam. oh.. and i hate jihad. because its a order for muslems to suport terrorist. and i hate the terror cells. everything from islam. it needs to change if its to survive.. a lot of muslems are converting to christain. no lie

[adbasque]

i hate fatawas i hate islams 4 methods of converting. i hate the lies of the quran and the koran. i hate mohamid who made it a muslem law to kill non believers when and where you find them. i hate islam because its the birth place of terrorist. i hate terrorist. i hate v alqeada. all created from islam. oh.. and i hate jihad. because its a order for muslems to suport terrorist. and i hate the terror cells. everything from islam. it needs to change if its to survive.. a lot of muslems are converting to christain. no lie

Lol I pity you, all I read is the word "I hate"

It's ok keep on hating you're on the right tracks mate ^^

LOL Al Quaeda

[loveisthelaw]

I hate poor punctuation and poor spelling but I love ice cream, it is delicious.

[picha]

Who is an immaculate example of a true muslim in your opinion? I would really like to know.


The honest answer to that question unfortunately is mohammed, a man who beheaded between 600 - 900 people of the jewish banu qurayzia tribe in 1 night and took the women and children into slavery, and that is just one example of many of the nasty things he did.

[thirdwave]

i hate fatawas i hate islams 4 methods of converting. i hate the lies of the quran and the koran. i hate mohamid who made it a muslem law to kill non believers when and where you find them. i hate islam because its the birth place of terrorist. i hate terrorist. i hate v alqeada. all created from islam. oh.. and i hate jihad. because its a order for muslems to suport terrorist. and i hate the terror cells. everything from islam. it needs to change if its to survive.. a lot of muslems are converting to christain. no lie

I dislike many of the oppressive texts towards women, and how the Koran seems to belittle non believers...

But the bible is not really better.. especially the OT...

I think all the texts in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all dodgy.. I have read enough of the Hindu and Buddhist texts to really give a complete assessment of those.. I dont hold to much hope for them either..

[loveisthelaw]

I dislike many of the oppressive texts towards women, and how the Koran seems to belittle non believers...


Just out of interest, can you share the Ayats that you dislike please thirdwave? I would be interested to see them, if you don't mind.

[thirdwave]

Just out of interest, can you share the Ayats that you dislike please thirdwave? I would be interested to see them, if you don't mind.

Ok here are a few I dont like...

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.

4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

Just a few...

[lcr123]

Ok here are a few I dont like...







Just a few...
May Allah Guide you, i desire not to be amongst the ignorant, peace.

[lcr123]

i hate fatawas i hate islams 4 methods of converting. i hate the lies of the quran and the koran. i hate mohamid who made it a muslem law to kill non believers when and where you find them. i hate islam because its the birth place of terrorist. i hate terrorist. i hate v alqeada. all created from islam. oh.. and i hate jihad. because its a order for muslems to suport terrorist. and i hate the terror cells. everything from islam. it needs to change if its to survive.. a lot of muslems are converting to christain. no lie

May Allah Guide you, peace.

[hobo]

There are a lot of muslims out there who are true muslims, do you honestly expect the media to show a good muslim?? Come on lol

Go out and meet Muslims and talk to them, and see for yourself




I am not defending muslims, every muslim is an individual, yes it is cultural
listen, why would become a Muslim?
I was not a Muslim, I was not a religious person for a longtime
Why in your opinion I became Muslim, I became a Muslim 4 years before I met any Muslim.

Ask yourself this question, I take it you're on DI's forum is because s somewhere you agree with what he talks about, right?

So you do agree that the media will never ever tell you the truth, so why do you think they are constantly reporting bad things about Islam?
If that was a mean of control as you call it or you think it is, wouldn't they be showing another face of Islam.
By showing you some savages out there and telling these are Muslims, and that is what Islam does

I am a Muslim, I know that Islam never ever encouraged any of these things, and female mutilation for instance predates Islam in many areas, and Islam has put a stop to these practices except where people doing them secretly
And please do me a huge favour don't quote to me ANY so called Muslim country there aren't Muslim countries, there are Muslims all over the world, but NOT ONE single government or state is leading with Islamic rules and laws not one and I know what I am talking about.

They are all corrupt governements, put there by the ptb for generations now.
Let's take Saudi Arabia for instance, do you know who the Saudis are??
Answer me this then, right?

In Islam there's no such thing as Monarchy, you don't believe me find out for yourself.

So why is there a Monarchy in Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Morroco and so on??
They were put there years ago to do exactly that.

To project to the outside world a false image of Islam.
Saudis were put to power by Britain back in the late 20s early 30s Why?



What can they do? You live under a dictatorship if you dare to do or say anything they will wipe you out and your entire family, you have no idea what it's like in those countries do you?

Do you think Husni Mubarak of Egypt is a Muslim??
Check him out and compare to what Islam teaches and you will see for yourself.

The Saudis are Muslims?? lol
What a joke they do the opposite of what Islam teaches
Morroco the same
there is no Muslim country in the world, people are Muslims some are good some are ignorant and some are bad and ignorant.




Totally agree with you, but then, I can't speak for every Muslim, Islam teaches us to respect the law of the land you live in, and if you don't like it get the hell out of that country, they are NOT allowed to cause trouble or to try and change someone's culture to suit them.

But in my view this all media stiring as usual yes some people are just plain ignorant on both sides, intolerant and that's it.

Yes I agree with you they need to show and give a good example on how a good Muslim should behave!



You can understand Islam and Quoran but sometimes some words or verses would mean something in Arabic but when translated the meaning could have a slight difference, I can't think of something right now on top of my head.

But when I come across something that has a slight difference from Arabic to English, I will let you know.




Another interesting question and good question even, ask yourself why is that?
Who's making sure that these countries will never see freedom, human rights, and remain under dictatorship regimes, why?



Hang on a minute please, now some French were attacked by English Hooligans and thugs would like it if those people treat every English person the same??
Would you like it if you were called a thug or a hooligan? I am sure you neither, right?

You had some problems with some muslims men, are you sure they were Muslims, or is it just because they were brown, or they were called Mohamed and Abdel....??

Do you want me to show you how many Mohameds go to casinos, drink alcohol, pick prostitutes, use drugs, steal, etc..?

It doesn't mean anything, I am not just concerned with my country which is Britain I am concerned about this whole planet, and its population.
I am concerned about the human race.
We are all one, all human beings regardless of our differences, that is what makes this world interesting, imagine for one minute we all white or all black, or all dark skinned, etc.. this world would be boring.

Imagine all flowers are the same, all animals are the same and so on, what would become of this beautiful planet of ours?

Our diversity is our beauty, some people are nice, some are bad, some don't even know they are bad, some are thick, some intelligent, some are mean, and so on...

A Muslim is just a human being, he makes mistakes like everyone else, he is not some kind of an alien.
Yes I have known Atheists, not religious people who are 100 times nicer than some so called religious people and vice versa.



Yes at first that was nealy 2 years ago lol
Now I am really tired.

Hi adbasque,and thanks for your lengthy reply. You seem like a sincere guy; at least it´s possible to have a decent conversation with you. That´s at least something.:)

You say go out and meet moslems and talk to them. Well it´s hard not to,as they´re everywhere these days.

You seem to presume that I get my impression of moslems solely from the media. That´s not the case. My first encounters with moslems goes back to the late 70´ies, where turkish migrant workers in suits were stalking around the danish beaches with their eyes popping out of their heads.
Where I come from we´ve always had a relaxed attitude to nudity on the beach and don´t take it as a sexual come-on. It just feels pleasant and nice to be able to enjoy the sun and wind against your skin.

But this freedom is about to change for good, thanks to the self-proclaimed moslem moral-police harassing people on the beach and elsewhere where people are not covering their bodies according to moslem standards.

I won´t bore you with a long list of personal experiences and my friends/acquantances experiences with moslems, but it suffice to say that the moslems sadly live up to their reputation as notoriously devious,primitive,violent and suffering from a chronic superiority-complex. You don´t have to read the newspapers to sense that wherever moslems are in the majority, they start to harass the locals and impose their values on them.

Just by looking out my window, I can note that more and more moslems are living in the neighbourhood, and that their kids are beginning the all-too wellknown pattern of ganging up harassing non-moslems.
Arson is becoming frequent now, and other types of crimes are skyrocketing.

The usual explanation is that it´s alltogether the fault of the society, because the poor moslem youths have nothing to do.
Well if that´s true, why the hell do they burn down youth-clubs, schools etc. where they could have learnt a skill or pursued a hobby?

Could it be, that constructive activity is not as appealing to the middle-eastern macho-ego as being badass gangstas at war with their environment?

The danish society have gone to great lengths to accomodate the immigrants with housing, benefits, free medical treatment, education, enterpretors and so on, but for some reason not much have come out of it.

When I asked why there is so little initiative from the "true" moslems to correct the bad ones, I was referring to the immigrants here or in other western countries.
Why aren´t the "true" moslems coming out of the woodwork here, where they have every chance to show their good example? You can say many things about Denmark, but we´re not a dictatorship, there is very little corruption and no danger of torture in prison. So whats keeping you?

Is it because the "true" moslem is about as real as the wizard of Oz?

I have tried to reach out to moslems.
Once I tried to give a bouquet of flowers to a moslem woman. She just looked at me in disgust. I´ve tried to give candy to some moslem children,but they refused because they were not allowed to recieve things from strangers.I went home to a moslem family to get to know them, and the visit ended when the husband came home and began dictatorially shouting at me for half an hour trying to force me to become a sunni. And I´ve taken the chance several times with arabian guys inviting me to the proverbial cup of coffe in the backroom, I rarely saw any coffee, but unfailingly they opened their fly showing me something else...

Yes adbasque, I used to think like you, that every human being is just a human being no matter what nationality, skincolour etc.And that cultural and racial differences was something to be celebrated. I just had to realize that this attitude was not reciprocated. Being a single, white female amongst arab/somali/turkish moslems, is very often synonymous with being viewed and treated as an infidel, and therefore an inferiour,abusable piece of meat.

How to bridge this cultural gap I don´t know. Or if I care to try any more.
I´m also tired...

[loveisthelaw]

Ok here are a few I dont like...

Just a few...

Thanks for that.

It seems to me you were you using a website such as www.skepticsannotatedbible.com, or at least some other website, apposed to reading a book?

[thirdwave]

Thanks for that.

It seems to me you were you using a website such as www.skepticsannotatedbible.com, or at least some other website, apposed to reading a book?

I used a couple websites to get the texts... the website you underlined used the Marmaduke Pickthall English translation..

I understand there are other translations that differ slightly..... but upon looking at those, they did not seem any less oppressive to female or non believers to me..

I understand many Muslims may not be oppressive to women or non believers due to their own grasp on morals through human nature.., but the texts certainly appear that way.

[thirdwave]

Here are some other translations by A. Yusuf Ali.. this one is a little less blunt but still not of my taste.

4.34

Men are the protectors
And maintainers of women,
Because God has given
The one more (strength)
Than the other, and because
They support them
From their means.
Therefore the righteous women
Are devoutly obedient, and guard
In (the husband's) absence
What God would have them guard.
As to those women
On whose part ye fear
Disloyalty and ill-conduct,
Admonish them (first),
(Next), refuse to share their beds,
(And last) beat them (lightly);
But if they return to obedience,
Seek not against them
Means (of annoyance):
For God is Most High,
Great (above you all).

and heres another..

4.11
God (thus) directs you
As regards your children's
(Inheritance): to the male,
A portion equal to that
Of two females: if only
Daughters, two or more,
Their share is two-thirds
Of the inheritance;
If only one, her share
Is a half.
For parents, a sixth share
Of the inheritance to each,
If the deceased left children;
If no children, and the parents
Are the (only) heirs, the mother
Has a third; if the deceased
Left brothers (or sisters)
The mother has a sixth.
(The distribution in all cases
Is) after the payment
Of legacies and debts.
Ye know not whether
Your parents or your children
Are nearest to you
In benefit. These are
Settled portions ordained
By God; and God is
All-knowing, All-wise.

This one is admitedly very diforent..

4.98
Except those who are
(Really) weak and oppressed—
Men, women, and children—
Who have no means
In their power, nor (a guide-post)
To direct their way.

This one not much different

56. Those who reject
Our Signs, We shall soon
Cast into the Fire:
As often as their skins
Are roasted through,
We shall change them
For fresh skins,
That they may taste
The Penalty: for God
Is Exalted in Power, Wise.

What are your views on the differing translations..

and do you regard men to have a bigger role than Women or to stake more claim?

And the views on non believers? .. many here have wished me well, though I am a non believer..

[loveisthelaw]

I used a couple websites to get the texts... the website you underlined used the Marmaduke Pickthall English translation..

I understand there are other translations that differ slightly..... but upon looking at those, they did not seem any less oppressive to female or non believers to me..

I understand many Muslims may not be oppressive to women or non believers due to their own grasp on morals through human nature.., but the texts certainly appear that way.

Thanks for your reasoning response, you clearly can think without being by default negative and malicious. The reason I asked if you used a website is for the following reason. Let us take one of your quotes:


4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.


If you look at the Ayat prior to this we find:


4:97 Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wrong themselves, (the angels) will ask: In what were ye engaged ? They will say: We were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: Was not Allah's earth spacious that ye could have migrated therein ? As for such, their habitation will be hell, an evil journey's end;


We can see that these two Ayat are talking about those who are weak in faith and die as non-believers or die without doing the 5 pillars of Islam, due to hardship faced while living in an oppressive land, one in which it is not safe or easy to practice the religion.

However, the Ayat you quoted then goes on to say:


4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.



Except for the feeble men, the women and the children, who are unable to make a way for themselves to leave that oppressive land, they will not be put in to "hell" for disobeying the laws and not practicing them (out of fear or persecution).

So if the Women and children are unable to come up with a way to leave the land that is causing them hardship with regard to their practicing their religion, perhaps due to finances, the means to travel, etc then they will not be held accountable. Similarly for the weak, old, or ill men.

Is that really oppressive to women?

[loveisthelaw]

I am not going to say, nooooo, that is just a mistranslation, I am not here to try and kid you or pull wool over your eyes. It is not a translation issue per say, though one must consider that as well when trying to understand the text. It is also a contextual and situational judgement that must be taken in to consideration.

If you can post one Ayat that causes you trouble at a time, if you are interested, I am happy to try and give my view on what is being said by using the same book.

If you read my previous post, I hope that clarifies the Ayat you quoted at 4:98

[loveisthelaw]

and do you regard men to have a bigger role than Women or to stake more claim?

And the views on non believers? .. many here have wished me well, though I am a non believer..


Men and women have different roles. Men are responsible for paying for everything for a woman and the children - that is why for instance, a man gets more inheritance than a woman, because he has to pay for everything that a woman and child needs.

A woman does not have to ever work in her life as it is her husbands responsibility to provide for her so she has less need for money than a man does. It does not mean that she is not as important, because important is not defined by how much money you get. It is your piety that defines your importance in Allahs eyes.

However, a woman is worth more than a man in some regards, for example, the prophet SAWS says that you must always be kind to your mother and she is more important to a child than the father - she has the gates of heaven at her feet. Why is she more important to a child than the father? Because she bore the child and spends her life looking after it.

men and women have different roles in life and in a relationship, that is all.

If you are a non believer, that is your choice - it is not my business :)

[adbasque]

Men and women have different roles. Men are responsible for paying for everything for a woman and the children - that is why for instance, a man gets more inheritance than a woman, because he has to pay for everything that a woman and child needs.

A woman does not have to ever work in her life as it is her husbands responsibility to provide for her so she has less need for money than a man does. It does not mean that she is not as important, because important is not defined by how much money you get. It is your piety that defines your importance in Allahs eyes.

However, a woman is worth more than a man in some regards, for example, the prophet SAWS says that you must always be kind to your mother and she is more important to a child than the father - she has the gates of heaven at her feet. Why is she more important to a child than the father? Because she bore the child and spends her life looking after it.

men and women have different roles in life and in a relationship, that is all.

If you are a non believer, that is your choice - it is not my business :)

Salam Bro

For instance if a woman works whatever she earns it "HER" money she doesn't have to spend it on the house or on her husband, but whatever a man earns it's their money.

Is this being Unfair or Unjust towards women? You see brother a lot of people and websites deliberately sometimes try to mislead others.

I know that there are some genuine people who ask genuine questions, but some others are very devious in their comments.

May ALlah Guide us All

[loveisthelaw]

Wa 3lykom salam bro - good to see you again :D

You are right bro, there are many things that people do not understand, that is because they take one Ayat or one hadith and base judgement on that alone. Many of the anti-islamic websites are famous for that - they will provide some fact and then add in here say, misleading quotes from misguided "Muslim scholars" (who have no right to add anything to Islam since it is already complete) or any other Arabic source they can find to back up what they want to say.

Sadly for them, there are only 2 sources of information with regards to islam, that is the Qur3n, and the Sahih Hadith which do not contradict the Qur3n.

Due to the fact that many people are armchair scholars, they suck up what they get there and regurgitate it out as if it is fact, yet they are only misguiding themselves.

It is reckless and foolish to do that or to base a hope for understanding in that manner. And the only one being harmed at the end of the day are the ones who take that as the reality, and then come here and swear against any Prophet of God, or worse still, God itself.

It does not hurt you or I, yet as our Nabbi said - seek knowledge, even if you have to go as far as China, that means putting in a vast amount of effort. He also said, to avoid gossip and to avoid slandering someone without having fact. Finally from me, he also said that the fastest way for someone to end up on their face in the hellfire is through the tongue.

May Allah guide us all.

[thirdwave]

Men and women have different roles. Men are responsible for paying for everything for a woman and the children - that is why for instance, a man gets more inheritance than a woman, because he has to pay for everything that a woman and child needs.

A woman does not have to ever work in her life as it is her husbands responsibility to provide for her so she has less need for money than a man does. It does not mean that she is not as important, because important is not defined by how much money you get. It is your piety that defines your importance in Allahs eyes.

However, a woman is worth more than a man in some regards, for example, the prophet SAWS says that you must always be kind to your mother and she is more important to a child than the father - she has the gates of heaven at her feet. Why is she more important to a child than the father? Because she bore the child and spends her life looking after it.

men and women have different roles in life and in a relationship, that is all.

If you are a non believer, that is your choice - it is not my business :)

What does a women have to look forward to when she dies... apparently if I please allah, I will be met with 17 virgins.. (or what ever the number is) but what can a woman look forward too?

[loveisthelaw]

What does a women have to look forward to when she dies... apparently if I please allah, I will be met with 17 virgins.. (or what ever the number is) but what can a woman look forward too?

Ah yes, 72 virgins - it is from Al-Tirmidhi but it has a weak line or chain of narration. As such, although it is in Al-Tirmidhi, which is a good authoritative set of Hadith, you do not have to believe in it as the narrative chain to this hadith can not be verified.

With regard to what women will get, similar beauty as men.

I do not know if it will be 100% the same, by that I mean identical things, I would assume not but I do not know - I know men and women will get Palaces and beautiful gardens, and numerous other things.

http://members.cox.net/arshad/paradise.html

Please view this URL for some of the quotes from the Qur3n and hadith, though I do not know if it is a complete list as I have never verified it.

[loveisthelaw]

Just to add: you can read this:

Houri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just remember that Hadith must not contradict the Qur3n, yet I hope you find what you look for according to your intention.

[herushura]

What does a women have to look forward to when she dies... apparently if I please allah, I will be met with 17 virgins.. (or what ever the number is) but what can a woman look forward too?

Since Islam Teach that Women are Second-Class Evil Slaves, they most likely become Slaves themselves, and serve there Male Masters with Sexual Pleasure.

Ah yes, 72 virgins

72 Degrees of the Pentagram -- Symbol of the Morning Star
5 Points of the Pentagram -- Virgo 5th Zodiac House

Allah - Moon God ||||||| Allat - Star-Sun Goddess |||Crescent Moon and Sun|||

Mecca was Originally a Place for the Worship of Cybele (Kabbalah/Kabah/Cyb-Allah/Ja-Cob)

Black Stone = Cybele

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/AiKhanoumPlateSharp.jpg

[loveisthelaw]

lol

:p

[adbasque]

lol

:p

Salam Alaikoum bro,

I love all the geniuses we get here, Allat = Allah lol
What did Mohamed peace be up on him destroy in Mecca?

You want to hear the hypocrisy of some people?

On one hand they don't like it when Mohamed destroyed the statues, and the symbols, and on the other they will try and associate the name Allah with Alat

And another thing Allah is only one of his 100 names and the 99 names we know.

So what are they going to do with the other 99 names?

Very funny sometimes :D

Allah is his name, Ilah is "God" it has nothing to do with the moon the sun, the stars or anything as such all of sudden they are all experts in the Arabic language, they only understand Arabic when it suits them lolll

In Islam there is NO moon, no star, no symbol if they care to look back at the history of the crescent and the star that we find on top of mosques, they will probably have a better understanding, and that moon and the star has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

That is it!
End of the story and the moon rituals they keep throwing everytime as an argument.

Salam Bro

[loveisthelaw]

Salam Alaikoum bro,

I love all the geniuses we get here, Allat = Allah lol
What did Mohamed peace be up on him destroy in Mecca?

You want to hear the hypocrisy of some people?

On one hand they don't like it when Mohamed destroyed the statues, and the symbols, and on the other they will try and associate the name Allah with Alat

And another thing Allah is only one of his 100 names and the 99 names we know.

So what are they going to do with the other 99 names?

Very funny sometimes :D

Allah is his name, Ilah is "God" it has nothing to do with the moon the sun, the stars or anything as such all of sudden they are all experts in the Arabic language, they only understand Arabic when it suits them lolll

In Islam there is NO moon, no star, no symbol if they care to look back at the history of the crescent and the star that we find on top of mosques, they will probably have a better understanding, and that moon and the star has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

That is it!
End of the story and the moon rituals they keep throwing everytime as an argument.

Salam Bro

Wa 3lykom salam!

yes bro, you are right - as I said before 'armchair scholars' ;)

Masalama

[herushura]

Allah is his name, Ilah is "God" it has nothing to do with the moon the sun, the stars

Allat is the Consort of Allah (+T = Feminine)

The Mother Goddess was worshiped for over 6000 Years and predated every Male God.

The Sun - Is the Son of the Mother Goddess, The Sun Ray symolized by a Penis/Horns/Wings or Snakes, This son became known as Ra.

R / L Interchangable

Re > Le/El > ALLah/hELios/sOL/appOLo/yELLow/ELOhim

Cybele | Cyb > Cube/Kabah/Kaballah
The Original name of "Cybele" is "Cybebe" , Indeeds "B" is sometimes act as a "V"
Cybele > Cybebe > Cubebe > Cuvave > Chavvah
Chavvah is the hebrew name for "Eve"

Monotheism is Ignorant of the Goddess

Mono-theism = MANtheism (Male Orientated Religions) (This is why Islam/Christianity/Judaism is Sexist)

[loveisthelaw]

Allat is the Consort of Allah (+T = Feminine)


There is no feminine word for Allah, I guess that is one of the reasons it is used as it has no gender.

The God if Islam is genderless and it is part of Islamic teaching to ensure that no human likeness be ascribed to it. Allah is neither male nor female.

Unlike God, which can be god, goddess, godmother, godfather, godson, etc.

And monotheism is not mantheism, it is singular theism.

Mono = singular, one, alone
Theism = belief in a god.

Monotheism is belief in 1 god.

You are a word smith eh, pretty bad one though ;)

[herushura]

There is no feminine word for Allah, I guess that is one of the reasons it is used as it has no gender.

Unlike God, which can be godess, godmother, godfather, godson, etc.

Allat - Gods are never Genderless

[elirien]

Ok here are a few I dont like...

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.

If you like you could look at this from the context that in Arab culture of that time female children would be buried alive. There are some other verses as well which point to similar points. It is a leap for the people of that time. Since we don't shout at say Gandalf in the Lord of the rings "hey why don't you just shoot those orks?" we also could look at the context of this text.


Quote:
4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.
On its own this verse is quite cryptic. One has to read more.

Quote:
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Well this seems quite obvious. "Don't live with a partner who doesn't like you". It's quite simple really. On the "men are in charge of women" bit one has to consider other factors besides the most shallow one which is again in context of both where and when this has been written. Also another important perspective is that of the reader who quite easily falls into the trap of saying "Hey, I'm a man/woman.". We could go all esoteric here but why bother. Another example of this happened when someone (thinking she was a woman) didn't like the sentence saying that "women are gifts for men". No one said that men were not gifts for women and no one also didn't say that the reader is either man/woman.



4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. This is something that happens in "day to day life" as it's called. One just has to observe the bodily behavior that happens during speech with certain people, certain thoughts, bodily behavior etc. An important aspect of this is also where to observe these feelings, (e)motions.

Thank you and bless you.

[adbasque]

Allat - Gods are never Genderless

That is you're Opinion, besides the word GOD is not the same as the name ALLAH.

God in the English language is the Equivalent of Ilah, so in Al Ilah is genderless

ALLAH has no gender, gender applies to living things that ALLAH created

I hope that clarifies the misconception of ALLAH, we believe in ONE God not 1000 of them.

ALLAH made Genders.

If you want to believe in many Gods and Godsses I would like you to explain to me what is it required of anyone to be a GOD then?
Or the real definition of a GOD?
Because it's all well and good to call so and so GOD and Godess, beside for your info the word "GOD" is man invention reverse the letters you will see DOG, and who worships DOGS?

We can dig even deeper and do a little research about the origin of the word god.

ALLAH has 100 names we only know 99 of them.
Paegans believe in many gods, so that for a start throws the theory of some people who are trying to link ALLAH to a paegan beliefs.

Anyway I believe we have discussed all of these subjects in details few pages back.

Peace everyone, yes Love is the higher law amongst us humans.
Hatred will only lead to destruction.

[adbasque]

Hi adbasque,and thanks for your lengthy reply. You seem like a sincere guy; at least it´s possible to have a decent conversation with you. That´s at least something.:)

You say go out and meet moslems and talk to them. Well it´s hard not to,as they´re everywhere these days.

You seem to presume that I get my impression of moslems solely from the media. That´s not the case. My first encounters with moslems goes back to the late 70´ies, where turkish migrant workers in suits were stalking around the danish beaches with their eyes popping out of their heads.
Where I come from we´ve always had a relaxed attitude to nudity on the beach and don´t take it as a sexual come-on. It just feels pleasant and nice to be able to enjoy the sun and wind against your skin.

But this freedom is about to change for good, thanks to the self-proclaimed moslem moral-police harassing people on the beach and elsewhere where people are not covering their bodies according to moslem standards.

I won´t bore you with a long list of personal experiences and my friends/acquantances experiences with moslems, but it suffice to say that the moslems sadly live up to their reputation as notoriously devious,primitive,violent and suffering from a chronic superiority-complex. You don´t have to read the newspapers to sense that wherever moslems are in the majority, they start to harass the locals and impose their values on them.

Just by looking out my window, I can note that more and more moslems are living in the neighbourhood, and that their kids are beginning the all-too wellknown pattern of ganging up harassing non-moslems.
Arson is becoming frequent now, and other types of crimes are skyrocketing.

The usual explanation is that it´s alltogether the fault of the society, because the poor moslem youths have nothing to do.
Well if that´s true, why the hell do they burn down youth-clubs, schools etc. where they could have learnt a skill or pursued a hobby?

Could it be, that constructive activity is not as appealing to the middle-eastern macho-ego as being badass gangstas at war with their environment?

The danish society have gone to great lengths to accomodate the immigrants with housing, benefits, free medical treatment, education, enterpretors and so on, but for some reason not much have come out of it.

When I asked why there is so little initiative from the "true" moslems to correct the bad ones, I was referring to the immigrants here or in other western countries.
Why aren´t the "true" moslems coming out of the woodwork here, where they have every chance to show their good example? You can say many things about Denmark, but we´re not a dictatorship, there is very little corruption and no danger of torture in prison. So whats keeping you?

Is it because the "true" moslem is about as real as the wizard of Oz?

I have tried to reach out to moslems.
Once I tried to give a bouquet of flowers to a moslem woman. She just looked at me in disgust. I´ve tried to give candy to some moslem children,but they refused because they were not allowed to recieve things from strangers.I went home to a moslem family to get to know them, and the visit ended when the husband came home and began dictatorially shouting at me for half an hour trying to force me to become a sunni. And I´ve taken the chance several times with arabian guys inviting me to the proverbial cup of coffe in the backroom, I rarely saw any coffee, but unfailingly they opened their fly showing me something else...

Yes adbasque, I used to think like you, that every human being is just a human being no matter what nationality, skincolour etc.And that cultural and racial differences was something to be celebrated. I just had to realize that this attitude was not reciprocated. Being a single, white female amongst arab/somali/turkish moslems, is very often synonymous with being viewed and treated as an infidel, and therefore an inferiour,abusable piece of meat.

How to bridge this cultural gap I don´t know. Or if I care to try any more.
I´m also tired...

Listen my friend, as a Muslim, and I know what is required of a Muslim, now if a Muslim goes to another country and doesn't like their culture, he can't change them or the way they live, it's for him/her to get the hell out of that country.

If you're a Muslim in a foreign land either you respect the country you're in or you leave simple as that, you can't dictate how they should live their lives.
End of a story
I am talking from an Islamic point of view not from a Muslim point of view, what Islam says and what some MUslims are doing, are two different things.

Don't Judge Islam by what some muslims do or don't do.
You can't judge highway code by what some drivers do on the road ^^
Peace my friend

[herushura]

That is you're Opinion, besides the word GOD is not the same as the name ALLAH.

God in the English language is the Equivalent of Ilah, so in Al Ilah is genderless

ALLAH has no gender, gender applies to living things that ALLAH created

I hope that clarifies the misconception of ALLAH, we believe in ONE God not 1000 of them.

ALLAH made Genders.

If you want to believe in many Gods and Godsses I would like you to explain to me what is it required of anyone to be a GOD then?
Or the real definition of a GOD?
Because it's all well and good to call so and so GOD and Godess, beside for your info the word "GOD" is man invention reverse the letters you will see DOG, and who worships DOGS?

We can dig even deeper and do a little research about the origin of the word god.

ALLAH has 100 names we only know 99 of them.
Paegans believe in many gods, so that for a start throws the theory of some people who are trying to link ALLAH to a paegan beliefs.

Anyway I believe we have discussed all of these subjects in details few pages back.

Peace everyone, yes Love is the higher law amongst us humans.
Hatred will only lead to destruction.

(Monotheistic Version)Allah is only around 1000 years Old - Pagan goes all the way back to the Beginning(predates) of Civilisations - If Allah wanted to Establish a Religion were people Worship Him, then why did he not Establish Islam on the day he created Man.

Why didnt Allah give the native American/Asians there very own Prophet Muhammed?

[adbasque]

(Monotheistic Version)Allah is only around 1000 years Old - Pagan goes all the way back to the Beginning(predates) of Civilisations - If Allah wanted to Establish a Religion were people Worship Him, then why did he not Establish Islam on the day he created Man.

Why didnt Allah give the native American/Asians there very own Prophet Muhammed?

No it acctually goes all the way back to Adam :) do you know how many prophets came after Adam?

If you think Islam only goes back to 1000 years then think again mi amigo, and it's the same message brought by all of the prophets before Mohamed (pbuh)

Why would he give them their very own Mohamed? Mohamed was NOT sent for the Arabs, Islam is NOT for the Arabs, it was sent for mankind all of mankind.

So all of the prophets before him were sent for the Hebrews?
Jesus was sent to the white man with blue eyes? lol

I suggest to look back at the history of the prophets there are thousands of them.

ALLAH didn't start his message 1000 years ago, but his message goes back to the beginning of mankind.

Take care
Peace :)

[theabbot 7]

i ran into a problem over at this social networking site where this christian or possibly a hebrew israelite was strongly as muslims, what i found out is how ignorant and misinformed he was (he mad such claims as muhammad being a pedophile-which has been refuted time and again and that the quran plagarizes the bible-again wrong it makes me mad when people judge religion on false pretenses.....and want to pick a fight as to who's is better imo all relgious paths lead to god, so why the debates and argument...1st amendent rights is something people seem to forget

[bendoon]

No it acctually goes all the way back to Adam :) do you know how many prophets came after Adam?

They just stole Adam and the prophets to try and legitimise themselves, clever trick but thankfully most people aren't that dumb to fall for it.

[kappy0405]

They just stole Adam and the prophets to try and legitimise themselves, clever trick but thankfully most people aren't that dumb to fall for it.

With the same logic, you could say the same thing about Christianity.. But you won't. :rolleyes:

[bendoon]

With the same logic, you could say the same thing about Christianity.. But you won't. :rolleyes:

No, not at all, the NT follows on seamlessly from the OT and Jesus was foretold many times in the OT. Muhammad came 300 years later out of nowhere and stole all the characters.

[kbeet]

I dislike many of the oppressive texts towards women, and how the Koran seems to belittle non believers...

But the bible is not really better.. especially the OT...

I think all the texts in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all dodgy.. I have read enough of the Hindu and Buddhist texts to really give a complete assessment of those.. I dont hold to much hope for them either..

look at this neon will you
what he says

then look below at his post signiture
you have to go to his origional
post to see it

[adbasque]

They just stole Adam and the prophets to try and legitimise themselves, clever trick but thankfully most people aren't that dumb to fall for it.

Bendoon what are you talking about?? Stole Adam loll?

I hope you're not serious that's all :D


How did they steal Adam (PBUH)?

Adam is the father of mankind are they Aliens?? :D
You're not making any sense mate, nevermind I'll take it as a joke
Take care :)

[adbasque]

i ran into a problem over at this social networking site where this christian or possibly a hebrew israelite was strongly as muslims, what i found out is how ignorant and misinformed he was (he mad such claims as muhammad being a pedophile-which has been refuted time and again and that the quran plagarizes the bible-again wrong it makes me mad when people judge religion on false pretenses.....and want to pick a fight as to who's is better imo all relgious paths lead to god, so why the debates and argument...1st amendent rights is something people seem to forget

+1

Listen some people talk about tolerance but in fact it's them that are intolerant, and it's them attacking non stop, show me how many Muslims on this forum attacked Christians, Hindus or other faiths?

Islam is attacked from every angle, If the ptb is behind all these religions why would they attack them?
They will be promoting them, I even explained why they don't like religions, and don't like the word God to be mentioned they even made some of these subjects tabooooooo loll.

The PTB use several things to divide us, that way they can control all of us, but some people will never understand it.

I don't hate anyone, I don't despise anyone, I pity the ignorants and the misinformed.
But I have witnessed a lot of hatred over the last few months I have been on this forum, and to be honest I am a little confused by some people's behaviour.

You'd think that members who are regulars on this forum will at least have this in common, that we understand the division played amongst us by the ptb, but it's not the case unfortunately.

So what if we are different?? Aren't we intelligent enough to co-exist?

Sometimes I despair of the human race I even sometime say we deserve to be treated that way, I am two feet away from Misanthropy.

God Bless you all, peace to everyone regardless of who they are.

Adbasque Out

[chainmaker]

I just wanna say something about the muslim women.

I live in Turkey. Population is 95% muslim. I have never seen a camel in my life here, except in zoo. No death penalty here, and we don't cut people's limbs and we don't stone them. Lifetime prison is what you get, if you do something really bad.

We elected a woman as Prime Minister who is named Tansu Ciller, which is more or less like the President in USA. Did Americans ever elect a woman as their President?

Some of the women here wear turbans or head-ties. They are not forced to wear those, and if you come here you will see that most don't. In fact most who wear them are old people and 90% of the young don't wear headties. For the ones wearing them, we encourage them to take their headties and turbans off, but they don't want to remove them because of their beliefs.

Here in Turkey you can marry to only one person legally and it is against the law to practice poligamy.

Women are totally equal with men here. They can elect and get elected for any government position. Many businesses and organizations have women as their presidents. Women can even be soldiers if they want to.

To cut it short, Turkey is an islamic country and women here are at least equal to the women of the western countries. Some of the women choose not to be like you or adopt your western cultures. If we forced them to be more like you, we would be the opressors then.

Western people want muslims to be like them, they want their women to throw away their turbans AND the rest of their clothes, they want their women to start to have sex with random people from age 14. They see this as being advanced people. And when others don't want to do this because their own cultures ask them to be virtious, they call this backwardness.

I know there are muslim countries that are totally unlike Turkey and they probably deserve being called oppressive and backward. If other countries oppress their women, force them to wear things they don't want to, think of them as things to own and not as human etc., then it is their own evil and has nothing to do with Islam, as Islam can also produce countries like Turkey.

I am an Atheist now and I have no problem telling that to muslims in my country. Here people are expected to respect any religious belief or lack of it. I chose to become an Atheist not because I don't agree with Islam in particular but because I don't agree with religion alltogether. Even though I am not a muslim I felt like they are wrongly understood, and as I know and live with them I had to speak my mind.

However, 1500 years ago, before Islam, the arabian people used to own women as many as they wanted as wives and concubines, and force them to wear turbans and totally cover them with cloth. They also used to bury their newborn baby girls before Islam. It was their own culture. It is said that Islam came to put an end to their evil practices. Many things that you know as Islamic today is actually the remnants of their old culture, they have nothing to do with Islam in essence. But they became inseperable because of the arab nationalistic policies. Turbans and head-ties are just one. They made Kuran a nationalistic propoganda tool. And until about a hundred years ago, translating Kuran to other languages was unacceptable. They said it is to keep Kuran's original form. Which worked, but no one understood what it said. A few crooks manipulated populations the way they wanted.

[herushura]

No it acctually goes all the way back to Adam :) do you know how many prophets came after Adam?

If you think Islam only goes back to 1000 years then think again mi amigo, and it's the same message brought by all of the prophets before Mohamed (pbuh)

Why would he give them their very own Mohamed? Mohamed was NOT sent for the Arabs, Islam is NOT for the Arabs, it was sent for mankind all of mankind.

So all of the prophets before him were sent for the Hebrews?
Jesus was sent to the white man with blue eyes? lol

I suggest to look back at the history of the prophets there are thousands of them.

ALLAH didn't start his message 1000 years ago, but his message goes back to the beginning of mankind.

Take care
Peace :)

ah ah ah History, You believe the Earth is 8000 Years Old, There is no such thing as islamic/Jewish History, its all a Fairy Tale.

Prophets are actually Zoroastrian Astrologers

You can Thank Constantine for Destroying the Original Temples and Religions, Without Him, Your Allah would still be a Moon God.

[lcr123]

ah ah ah History, You believe the Earth is 8000 Years Old, There is no such thing as islamic/Jewish History, its all a Fairy Tale.

Prophets are actually Zoroastrian Astrologers

You can Thank Constantine for Destroying the Original Temples and Religions, Without Him, Your Allah would still be a Moon God.

you base your ideas of religion on your own desires and with no research present, where is the proof?

[lcr123]

Bendoon what are you talking about?? Stole Adam loll?

I hope you're not serious that's all :D


How did they steal Adam (PBUH)?

Adam is the father of mankind are they Aliens?? :D
You're not making any sense mate, nevermind I'll take it as a joke
Take care :)

+1

[lcr123]

Salam Alaikoum bro,

I love all the geniuses we get here, Allat = Allah lol
What did Mohamed peace be up on him destroy in Mecca?

You want to hear the hypocrisy of some people?

On one hand they don't like it when Mohamed destroyed the statues, and the symbols, and on the other they will try and associate the name Allah with Alat

And another thing Allah is only one of his 100 names and the 99 names we know.

So what are they going to do with the other 99 names?

Very funny sometimes :D

Allah is his name, Ilah is "God" it has nothing to do with the moon the sun, the stars or anything as such all of sudden they are all experts in the Arabic language, they only understand Arabic when it suits them lolll

In Islam there is NO moon, no star, no symbol if they care to look back at the history of the crescent and the star that we find on top of mosques, they will probably have a better understanding, and that moon and the star has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

That is it!
End of the story and the moon rituals they keep throwing everytime as an argument.

Salam Bro

we need more people like you on this forum. +1

[flickflack]

I live in Turkey. Population is 95% muslim.




What concerns me about Turkey is that Christians don't have much priority there any more... It is the fall of Constantinople.

Constantinople was once the most important Christian city in the world... But now, Turkey is a Muslim country, and there are few Christians left. But what I'm really concerned about, is the fact that Christians are not always treated well in the former Constantinople, which is now Istanbul.

It is rather sad that Christians should be discriminated by Muslims, in a country that once was one of the first and foremost Christian countries in the world. They are actually treated as second class citizens as Christians in the Muslim Istanbul, which is ironic, because the Christians where the first ones that lived there (in Constantinople). Islam wasn't even created back then.

[chainmaker]

The city used to be pagan before christians. Does this make the city pagan for ever? Forget about what things used to be. Istanbul isn't Constantinople for the last 600 years.

Besides in Turkey everyone is equal regardless of their religion and ethnicity and there is only one class citizenship. No second class, only first class. We visit their churches they visit our mosques. If you don't know this, you are probably misinformed.

Turkey is a secular country, and treating people of another religion as second class citizens would be against the law, and culturally we are expected to treat every religion equally.

My parents own and read the bible and they are muslim.

However you shouldn't expect that in a city with 95% muslim population to have christian themes everywhere. People give meanings to places too much. They forget it is the people that matters. Do you think that muslims have to adopt christian cultures when they enter the city of Istanbul. And will you be adopting muslim cultures if you happen to capture mecca.

The home's owners were first pagans, then christians, and now muslims. People living in that home are muslims now, and when you visit that home as a guest you will have to respect the owner.

Just like Americans settled in america and took it from the natives, USA became their home. Turks did the same thing for Istanbul.

[adbasque]

The city used to be pagan before christians. Does this make the city pagan for ever? Forget about what things used to be. Istanbul isn't Constantinople for the last 600 years.

Besides in Turkey everyone is equal regardless of their religion and ethnicity and there is only one class citizenship. No second class, only first class. We visit their churches they visit our mosques. If you don't know this, you are probably misinformed.

Turkey is a secular country, and treating people of another religion as second class citizens would be against the law, and culturally we are expected to treat every religion equally.

My parents own and read the bible and they are muslim.

However you shouldn't expect that in a city with 95% muslim population to have christian themes everywhere. People give meanings to places too much. They forget it is the people that matters. Do you think that muslims have to adopt christian cultures when they enter the city of Istanbul. And will you be adopting muslim cultures if you happen to capture mecca.

The home's owners were first pagans, then christians, and now muslims. People living in that home are muslims now, and when you visit that home as a guest you will have to respect the owner.

Just like Americans settled in america and took it from the natives, USA became their home. Turks did the same thing for Istanbul.

Muslims don't have a problem with Christians, not only in Instanbul, you have bunches of idiots of either sides sometimes who are manipulated one against another.

Yes you're absolutely right, I have Turkish Christian friends as a matter of fact very close friends, and they have never ever mentioned any descrimination towards them in the whole of Turkey, they live together most of the time they don't even think about it.

They are NOT in anyway form or shape being descriminated against.
This is a load of BS.

If people want to make out of little incidents sometimes that occurs between individuals, it has nothing to do with religion, sometimes people of the same faith and they have disagreements and fight, that is a human nature full stop.

So Mr FlickFlack please drop it, you keep coming in here and post some rubbish you haven't changed in the last few months.

You support Israel just tell me what are you doing on a website like this one?

Simple question out of curiosity

And please don't take it the wrong way or as a personal attack, it's an honest question, if you support Israel why are you here? Very strange isn't it?

[bendoon]

Islam is attacked from every angle, If the ptb is behind all these religions why would they attack them?

You are kidding right ?

The PTB bend over backwards to force the Governments into letting millions of Muslims into Europe, they pass anti discrimination laws and put people in jail who complain.

Islam attacked, give us a break, they couldn't do more to help it take over Europe if they tried.

Adam is the father of mankind are they Aliens??

He certainly wasn't a prophet of Islam, go get your own prophets instead of stealing other peoples, cheapskate.

[eternal_spirit]

You are kidding right ?

The PTB bend over backwards to force the Governments into letting millions of Muslims into Europe, they pass anti discrimination laws and put people in jail who complain.

Islam attacked, give us a break, they couldn't do more to help it take over Europe if they tried.
Indeed although you won't convince Adbasque of anything he's an English convert to Islam and blames Brits for everything, I call it Yvonne Ridley syndrome but a male version. :D (the converts are some of the most pro Islam people I've ever met) How ya doing Ad. I think we've been through it all before. Oh yes I remember the other threads now....

[loveisthelaw]

You are kidding right ?

The PTB bend over backwards to force the Governments into letting millions of Muslims into Europe, they pass anti discrimination laws and put people in jail who complain.

Islam attacked, give us a break, they couldn't do more to help it take over Europe if they tried.



He certainly wasn't a prophet of Islam, go get your own prophets instead of stealing other peoples, cheapskate.

It is not the Muslims who are asking for this - As Ad has stated before, Muslims have no right to force or try to convert a country that is not Islamic, anyone who says they do are liars. All Muslims can do is live and abide by the rules, while not relenting their religious duty, and if the Muslims do not like the rules or can not perform those duties, then they are commanded to perform hijrah to a Muslim country.

This "special Muslim treatment" is a ploy to make the local people of Britain for example, resent Islam because of the "special treatment" Muslims are being given. Same deal in the USA just now with the Mosque at Ground Zero, it has nothing to do with love for Muslims, it is another ploy used to entice and cause reaction among the people.

It is just social engineering - the government does not care about Islam nor about Muslim rights, the government does not care about anyone other than their own success.

Being British, we all know the reality of our own government and how they play with tricks to enslave and capture the minds of people - Islam is just another tool they use to do this, being that it is such a hot topic after the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[bendoon]

It is not the Muslims who are asking for this, it is a ploy to make the local people of Britain for example, resent Islam because of the "special treatment" Muslims are being given. It is just social engineering - the government does not care about Islam not about Muslim rights, the government does not care about anyone other than their own success.

Being British, we all know the reality of our own government and how they play with tricks to enslave and capture the minds of people - Islam is just another tool they use to do this, being that it is such a hot topic after the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I would have to reluctantly admit that you are correct. ;) :D

[loveisthelaw]

I would have to reluctantly admit that you are correct. ;) :D

Sorry I modified it a bit but I kept the same "jist"

[kbeet]

Ok here are a few I dont like...







Just a few...

oh i dont know about that
a woman. a stewardus on american air lines or what ever one it was on. a terrorist tried to set off o shoe bomb. the stewardus stoped him by jumping on his hands and pinning him till the other passengers came.. wou;d you jump on na terrorist knowing he had a bomb in his hand. i dont think so
American woman will fool you

[kappy0405]

He certainly wasn't a prophet of Islam, go get your own prophets instead of stealing other peoples, cheapskate.

So you're saying that he didn't believe in one God whose will we are subject too? Because that's what Islam is.

Again, the same logic could be applied to Christianity.

[kbeet]

So you're saying that he didn't believe in one God whose will we are subject too? Because that's what Islam is.

Again, the same logic could be applied to Christianity.

yeah thats right parrasite off of christanity

[kappy0405]

yeah thats right parrasite off of christanity

hate to be redundant, but again, the same logic could be used against Christianity to justify labeling it a parasite off of Judaism..

But, as has already been blatantly displayed on this forum numerous times, the Muslims here won't display such lack of class and intolerance.

[loveisthelaw]

hate to be redundant, but again, the same logic could be used against Christianity to justify labeling it a parasite off of Judaism..

But, as has already been blatantly displayed on this forum numerous times, the Muslims here won't display such lack of class and intolerance.

By their fruits shall you know them.

And bro, alhamdulillah, we are ripe and sweet, no matter what the newspapers print or the lips whisper.

May Allah reward all his servants with peaceful hearts(that means inner peace), a gentle tongue and a ferocious passion for truth and justice.

[kappy0405]

By their fruits shall you know them.

And bro, alhamdulillah, we are ripe and sweet, no matter what the newspapers print or the lips whisper.

May Allah reward all his servants with peaceful hearts(that means inner peace), a gentle tongue and a ferocious passion for truth and justice.

beautifully said. :)

I can only hope that other people will take notice.

[major seven]

By their fruits shall you know them.

And bro, alhamdulillah, we are ripe and sweet, no matter what the newspapers print or the lips whisper.

May Allah reward all his servants with peaceful hearts(that means inner peace), a gentle tongue and a ferocious passion for truth and justice.



Lawman!
Seems to me you and Brother Muslim #0405 need a reality check?

"Peaceful hearts"? Gentle Tongue?

"Muslims here won't display such lack of class and intolerance"?

LOL!!!LOL!!!LOL!!!

Does this sound familiar?

"Women who are NOT muslims are Walking Buckets Of Filth"

Pop Quiz!

1.) Who said that?

2.) Who got detention from the Mods for reaming his Phony Ass with a 2X4?

3.) How many of you muslims on this forum stepped forward to set his Stupid FUCKING Ass streight?

Answer all three correctly and you win a free trip to Las Vegas to hear Wayne Newton sing "Dankeshone".

OK! OK! I Know! I KNOW!! NOBODY wants to win that.

So, How about some REALITY instead?

You Know!
That Danish gal, Hobo, brought up some excellent points with the behaviour of muslims being left UNCHECKED, and this is a perfect example in your own backyard on a DI Forum no less.

And just for your own edification, Google up some muslim behaviour in Malmo, Sweden, another benevalent Western HOST COUNTRY for muslims.


As Always, I Remain, with a Peaceful Heart, A Furocious Passion for Truth and Justice, and a NOT so Gentle Tongue.

M7 :)

[thirdwave]

Men and women have different roles. Men are responsible for paying for everything for a woman and the children - that is why for instance, a man gets more inheritance than a woman, because he has to pay for everything that a woman and child needs.

A woman does not have to ever work in her life as it is her husbands responsibility to provide for her so she has less need for money than a man does. It does not mean that she is not as important, because important is not defined by how much money you get. It is your piety that defines your importance in Allahs eyes.

However, a woman is worth more than a man in some regards, for example, the prophet SAWS says that you must always be kind to your mother and she is more important to a child than the father - she has the gates of heaven at her feet. Why is she more important to a child than the father? Because she bore the child and spends her life looking after it.

men and women have different roles in life and in a relationship, that is all.

If you are a non believer, that is your choice - it is not my business :)

While I may have flicked through some quotes quite quickly and neglected to put it into perspective, I thing some are very clear.

Its ok for a husband to disciplining his wife by hitting her?, but with Allah not permitting it once she knows her wrong?..

One gripe I have and this tends to be the case with most religions. Is when people talk about the "way of life" back then and how they "lived in different surroundings" .. Well ok but if we were to conclude this answers for much of the dodgy sou8nding texts, Then are we then to assume that today's day and age has in fact evolved and being more fruitful, and hence the religion its self is now outdated?

It seems the words of God can not out date, but there meaning and expression is effected so easily simply by fashion and era..

[loveisthelaw]

M7 :)

You are talking as if there is only one Muslim who represents Islam! We can use your logic to create the same generality for non-Muslims and come to the same conclusions.

[loveisthelaw]

While I may have flicked through some quotes quite quickly and neglected to put it into perspective, I thing some are very clear.

Its ok for a husband to disciplining his wife by hitting her?, but with Allah not permitting it once she knows her wrong?..

One gripe I have and this tends to be the case with most religions. Is when people talk about the "way of life" back then and how they "lived in different surroundings" .. Well ok but if we were to conclude this answers for much of the dodgy sou8nding texts, Then are we then to assume that today's day and age has in fact evolved and being more fruitful, and hence the religion its self is now outdated?

It seems the words of God can not out date, but there meaning and expression is effected so easily simply by fashion and era..

"Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell[1]"

So, if you are not home and your wife "misbehaves", (what do you think that means?) Maybe the Quran says you can "scourge" your wife is she does something terrible, and as a last resort before divorcing her. It does not say you have to or should - I have never hit my wife and probably never will, not because I think I shouldn't but because we respect each other and there is no need for violence.

Hadith explain that you should use a stick no bigger than a Miswak, which is a toothbrush (scary!) you should not bruise her or hurt her, so in reality you are not allowed to "beat" your wife at all.

Yet I would rather follow the rules that say to stand up for those who are being oppresses and slaughtered and gives you the right to, as a last resort, scare your wife to change her bad behaviour, say if she is taking heroin or selling her body or beating her children, but hey, guess I am backward too.

My opinion is that it is not out dated, it is we that are.

We are now so modern and technologically advanced that when 1,500,000+ (yes, 1 and a half million plus) people are being slaughtered and bombed in Iraq, we don't care and act as if it happens every day. We would rather watch the TV and talk about Coronation Street or post on some Internet Forum about how the West is so great and the east is so backward.

We are so modern that when 100,000+ (yes, 1 hundred thousand plus) people are being bombed by rockets and shot in the face by soldiers, we would rather put the feet up, crack open a beer and watch football.

Back in those pre-technology, backward societies, they would have ran to support those being slaughtered for their oil.

Back in those pre-technology, backward societies, they would have flocked en-mass to support and help those humans being annihilated.

[major seven]

You are talking as if there is only one Muslim who represents Islam! We can use your logic to create the same generality for non-Muslims and come to the same conclusions.




No I ain't!
I'm talking about theoretically correct muslims, such as yourself, taking some responsibility and NOT allowing muslim DILDOS, with a BIG Mouth and ZERO Brains like Muslim #87 to Get Away with that sort of Stupid Shit.

Of course it is only a tiny example of what ONE Bad Apple can do to the whole barrel, Right?

Look what Yosammy and his cohorts have done for ya'll.

Of course it is politically correct nowadays by regular muslims to say that Osammy isn't really a muslim at ALL, Right?

Right!
Unfortunately, he is saying the same thing about YOU.

And One might wonder where could it be that he got THAT idea from?

As Always, I remain, etc. etc. etc.
M7

[loveisthelaw]

Look what Yosammy and his cohorts have done for ya'll

As Always, I remain, etc. etc. etc.
M7

indeed, just as G W Bush represents and his advisors have bolstered your reputation ;)

love and bacon sandwiches lol xx

PS, M7 - terrible motorway :D

[eternal_spirit]

Indeed although you won't convince Adbasque of anything he's an English convert to Islam and blames Brits for everything, I call it Yvonne Ridley syndrome but a male version. :D (the converts are some of the most pro Islam people I've ever met) How ya doing Ad. I think we've been through it all before. Oh yes I remember the other threads now....
Sharia is the law oops I mean loveisthelaw is another like Adbasque.

His ideal woman is
Define Yvonne Ridley

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_h7CJteTPowo/RiCQ9H-qzHI/AAAAAAAAAMw/Tws80UOrcp4/s320/jihadist_yvonne_ridley%2Bcopy.jpg

Peas in a pod. :D

This is the shocking picture of a young, white schoolboy being converted to Islam by a cleric linked to a radical Muslim hate preacher.

The bewildered 11-year-old, who gives his name as Sean was filmed repeating Arabic chants and swearing allegiance to Allah.

The boy is prompted throughout by controversial cleric Anjem Choudary, a follower of exiled hate-preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/28/article-0-0584D057000005DC-274_468x369.jpg Controversial: Anjem Choudary, left, speaks to the young boy named as Sean, right at a demonstration in Birmingham.

The nut on the right looks rather excited, guess they didn't tell the 11 year old boy about Islam's allowances with beardless boys.

[loveisthelaw]

Sharia is the law oops I mean loveisthelaw is another like Adbasque.

His ideal woman is
Define Yvonne Ridley


Actually, this is a picture of my wife last year when we were in Palestine at a wedding:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3991/abiw.jpg

Me: She does not wear hijab but she would still look amazing if she did.

Eternal_Spirit: "But how can that be!! It is not possible!! She is married to a Muslim man and everyone knows Muslim men force their women to do what they want!!"

[thirdwave]

"Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell[1]"

So, if you are not home and your wife "misbehaves", (what do you think that means?) Maybe the Quran says you can "scourge" your wife is she does something terrible, and as a last resort before divorcing her. It does not say you have to or should - I have never hit my wife and probably never will, not because I think I shouldn't but because we respect each other and there is no need for violence.


Hadith explain that you should use a stick no bigger than a Miswak, which is a toothbrush (scary!) you should not bruise her or hurt her, so in reality you are not allowed to "beat" your wife at all.

Yet I would rather follow the rules that say to stand up for those who are being oppresses and slaughtered and gives you the right to, as a last resort, scare your wife to change her bad behaviour, say if she is taking heroin or selling her body or beating her children, but hey, guess I am backward too.

My opinion is that it is not out dated, it is we that are.

We are now so modern and technologically advanced that when 1,500,000+ (yes, 1 and a half million plus) people are being slaughtered and bombed in Iraq, we don't care and act as if it happens every day. We would rather watch the TV and talk about Coronation Street or post on some Internet Forum about how the West is so great and the east is so backward.

We are so modern that when 100,000+ (yes, 1 hundred thousand plus) people are being bombed by rockets and shot in the face by soldiers, we would rather put the feet up, crack open a beer and watch football.

Back in those pre-technology, backward societies, they would have ran to support those being slaughtered for their oil.

Back in those pre-technology, backward societies, they would have flocked en-mass to support and help those humans being annihilated.

My comments do not imply that all Muslims hit their wives. But What I mean is the texts permit it. Also was Hadith not introduced sometime after the Koran and was not the teaching of Muhammad?

I just do not see how it is a mans duty to punish his wife in any form what's so ever, As it is not her job to punish a mans..

I find like Christianity, there is this false image of the man being more superior or responsible than the woman, which is a myth and is only ever really valid when dealing with a physical comparison.

I think Both female and male have there attributes and importance.. and a couple should be a team... and that religious texts should state this.. if we are looking at texts that are effected so deeply by the days they were created, then why would god deliver these dates texts? should they not be timeless?

I still do not think the Koran or bible for that matter treat women in a equal way.

For example why does it talk of a woman only unveiling her self to her man and family ..so on... Yet it seems a man can wear what he wishes...

What choice do the 72 virgins have? each of them have a man to share.. inch by inch?

like the bible I think there are elements of truth in these texts but that they have been conditioned and completely pushed wrong.

While there may be many Muslim who can take good from the texts and better them selves, it does not really make the texts the words of god for me.

[loveisthelaw]

My comments do not imply that all Muslims hit their wives. But What I mean is the texts permit it. Also was Hadith not introduced sometime after the Koran and was not the teaching of Muhammad?


The Sahih hadith that come from a strong chain of authentic narration are to be followed - that is where Muslims know how the prayer is performed for instance.


I just do not see how it is a mans duty to punish his wife in any form what's so ever, As it is not her job to punish a mans..


It isn't - but it is his duty to look after his wife, and his children. That includes preventing her form harming herself or the family.

If your wife has a gun and is pointing it at your child, will you stand there and do nothing because she is a woman? No, you would snap her arm if you had to, to prevent her shooting herself or your children. Trust me, she would do the same to you if she could.


I find like Christianity, there is this false image of the man being more superior or responsible than the woman, which is a myth and is only ever really valid when dealing with a physical comparison.


Well, that is right to an extent - however in Islam, a women does not need to work, the man does. A woman does not need to fight in a war, the man does.


I think Both female and male have there attributes and importance.. and a couple should be a team... and that religious texts should state this


It does:

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are signs for those who reflect." 30:21

Regarding the 72 virgins, I already addressed that.

[kbeet]

The Sahih hadith that come from a strong chain of authentic narration are to be followed - that is where Muslims know how the prayer is performed for instance.



It isn't - but it is his duty to look after his wife, and his children. That includes preventing her form harming herself or the family.

If your wife has a gun and is pointing it at your child, will you stand there and do nothing because she is a woman? No, you would snap her arm if you had to, to prevent her shooting herself or your children. Trust me, she would do the same to you if she could.



Well, that is right to an extent - however in Islam, a women does not need to work, the man does. A woman does not need to fight in a war, the man does.



It does:

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are signs for those who reflect." 30:21

Regarding the 72 virgins, I already addressed that.

why do i keep thinking of stued plums

[loveisthelaw]

why do i keep thinking of stued plums

hungry?