staying silent to the police

[shansuke]

i remember when i was a young teenager and got in to a bit of trouble with the police their was a guy in the court holding sells that had just spent 3 months in jail because he refused to declare his address to them,the guy went up before me.i later met him in another cell(the big one once youve been sentanced),and he got more time as he still wouldnt tell them his address(cant remember if he gave them a name or not).

this is what i dont understand about the freeman thing,i dont expect to get pulled over by the cops anytime soon,but if i did i would like to exercise my right to stay silent,but does it realy work cause it didnt for this guy,they just plain refused to let him go.it was a long time ago and i cant remember what he had done but i do remember it was something realy minor like peeing in the street or singing,was something a lot smaller than deserving unlimited jail time anyway.

[ex sheep]

If he gave them his name, then he entered into contract with them, then he was beat.

[shansuke]

If he gave them his name, then he entered into contract with them, then he was beat.

so you reckon if you dont give them anything they will let you go sooner or later,im not argueing here i just find it hard to believe.

when i was a teeneger the cops pulled us over almoast everytime they seen us(doing wrong or not),but even tho i live in whats considired a high crime area the cops dont even look at me twice these days,even tho i cant walk three streets without seing some sort of cop activity,im sure sooner or later it will happen,and if and when it does i will try and exersize this rite,at least until i get to speak to a lawyer if it doesnt look like working.

[crystaljunkie]

so you reckon if you dont give them anything they will let you go sooner or later,im not argueing here i just find it hard to believe.

when i was a teeneger the cops pulled us over almoast everytime they seen us(doing wrong or not),but even tho i live in whats considired a high crime area the cops dont even look at me twice these days,even tho i cant walk three streets without seing some sort of cop activity,im sure sooner or later it will happen,and if and when it does i will try and exersize this rite,at least until i get to speak to a lawyer if it doesnt look like working.

If you don't tell them anything, and you haven't done anything wrong, then they can only hold you so long, and then they let you go.

Check out the anti terrorist on how to deal with the police, youtube vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE8rfefPQ24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8XwehIHSnQ

posted elsewhere:

Watch these 2 short vids and then you'll have your answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE8rfefPQ24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8XwehIHSnQ

Full Tanscript:
Advice on Dealing with the Police by
"Hey Mr Policeman you are violating my rights!"

Golden Rule : Keep your mouth shut. Anything you say is used AGAINST you.

Do you have to talk and answer questions whether by police or authority ?
NO

If the policeman asks you for information about yourself. You do not have to answer. But you can tell him that if you want info about an incident, then fair enough but I dont have to give MY DETAILS to them.

Policeman : "What have you got to hide ?"
Respond : "Well, if I told you what I was hiding, then it would no longer be hidden would it!", "So I'm not telling you what I'm hiding. As it happens, I'm hiding my privacy". "Privacy is only of value to those who value their privacy and so it's none of yours or anyone business".

Even at the scene of an accident, you dont have to tell them your details. But they will probably put you in a cell. But you are in your rights not to give details. They will try to intimidate you into giving them your details or answering questions or they will "arrest you and charge with obstruction of an officer in the performance of it's duty".
Be prepared to go into a cell to keep your privacy.

Dont fall for their nice talk when they appear sympathetic SAY NOTHING.
DENY NOTHING. YOU HAVE NOT PAST, NO NAME, NO ADDRESS

================================================== ==

When a Policeman stops you to ask you questions :-

Get your mobile phone out and record it all and make sure the cop knows that you are recording. Say "Hello Officer, I recognise your contact. What is the nature of the intended detention ?"
If he says that you can NOT record the conversation, you say "In that case am I free to go ?" If he "yes" then you are free to go and you say "thank you for your time, goodbye", but if he says "no, youre not free to go", then you say again "What is the naure of the intended detention ?" (Always ask the questions cos you are then in the master position).
If he refuses to tell you what he is stopping you for then you ask him, "Did you witness me breach the peace ?". He will reply "yes" or "no".
If he says "no" then you say "I am now reserving my right not to speak to a police officer who has not witnessed me breach the peace. Thank you and good day". Walk away.
If he asks you for some identification. Ask him "Am I obliged to carry some identification ?". If he asks for your name then ask him if you are obliged to give him your name. The answer to both of those questions is "no". If he says "yes", then he is acting fraudulently, he's not acting as a lawful police officer. Ask him again "Am I free to go ? AM I FREE TO GO ? AM I FREE TO GO ?" If they continue to detain you then ask "Am I under arrest ? Am I free to go ? Am I under arrest ? Am I free to go ? Am I under arrest ?".

If they CONTINUE to detain you and they give you a sense that you are going to be arrested then IMMEDIATELY say "Officer I'm a peaceful man, if you are going to arrest me, there will be no need for force or violence. However, you are obliged to note that I am operating under protest and duress at all times. I reserve all of my rights at all times and waive none of my rights at any time for any cause or reason".

Then, if they take you down to the station the golden rule is to keep you mouth shut, say nothing, shut up! You do NOT give them permission to take your finger prints, you do not give them consent to ask any further questions, you do not give them consent to put their hands on you in any way shape or form "You do not have consent to touch me officer". They key here is that they can only police BY CONSENT. When they are working with "statutory regulations" THEY NEED YOUR CONSENT. NOTHING CAN BE DONE WITH STATUTORY REGULATIONS WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT - NOTHING! (Obviously if you are guilty of a crime then you should take the punishment like a man).

If they put you in a cell relax, ignore any intimdation and tactics to get you to speak. You are not required to give your fingerprints or to give your DNA (or a blood or a urine sample), NOT WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT. You waive your rights by opening your mouth of giving them what they want. The only way of getting out of the cell (but it could take a day) then you must SHUT UP cos then they have to release you.

================================================== ======

The police dont like YOU to ask THEM questions. It's completely alien to them. "Until youve established probable cause my friend, there is a Roman Maximum in law that says quote- Equality before the law is paramount and mandatory -unquote That means before you have established that I have done anything wrong then you and I are on equal footing my friend no matter what uniform youre wearing so you will treat me with respect and you will speak across to me and not down to me or I will not assist you in anyway shape or form".

The new statutory legistlation of stop and search powers are being abused by the police. You just have to say "No I do not consent. I am not consenting to any searches today. Thank you very much. Am I free to go ? Am I under arrest ? Am I free to go ? Am I under arrest ?".

www.tpuc.org
www.thinkfree.ca
www.fmotl.com

[pleasuredome]

http://www.andrewgray.uklinux.net/legalsupport/caselaw124.html

lawful excuse, and you dont have to tell them anything

[tom bombadil]

Just when were you a lad?

Before now, the police had tons of lea-way in interpreting the law. Have you seen Escape from mars? They were like that.

Now however they know that they are being watched and are less likely to hold you for too long.

The secret of course is to make a claim for your time lost, and thus not mind too much on your own detention/arrest.

From what I have seen and read, I think that they try to declare you insane at some point :p. But just remember that as soon as they use force or threat to get you to contract then you can quite happily use your phone call to call a freind that is in the know. Do you have a knowlegable freind?


Nelly.

[number_6]

http://www.andrewgray.uklinux.net/legalsupport/caselaw124.html

lawful excuse, and you dont have to tell them anything

The link you provide is dated 2001. Since then there has been the Police Reform Act 2002.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/ukpga_20020030_en_6#pt4-ch2-pb2-l1g50

[ex sheep]

The link you provide is dated 2001. Since then there has been the Police Reform Act 2002.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/ukpga_20020030_en_6#pt4-ch2-pb2-l1g50

That rubbish is just for persons, I'm not a person, and if everyone was to wake up to that fact including you, we would be in a position to get out of this stupid law system.

[markie_b]

hehehe wanna make some money?everytime they stop and ask you questions?its simple ask if its an order or if they want you to help with their enquirey if they say yes give them a bill ;) i mean hey times money and your helping them not them helping you hahahaha make sure you keep the recipt tho for the tax man

[oghene]

That rubbish is just for persons, I'm not a person, and if everyone was to wake up to that fact including you, we would be in a position to get out of this stupid law system.

Do we notice a trend here?

Whenever Joe Public has a remedy to constant harrasment, TPTB change the rules. This is exactly what happened with the Counter Terrorism Act 2008, amended February 2009.

My simple view is this:

Ask the police if they see a man or a person before them, a man can be seen but a person can only be identified. The police reform act is just a coercion to contract by identifying you are a 'person'
Without a name,address, DOB, they cannot identify a person.
If the police say they see a man, then they must provide the authority they have over men. I haven't seen any act of parliament that relate to men, have you?

[yozhik]

Do we notice a trend here?

Whenever Joe Public has a remedy to constant harrasment, TPTB change the rules. This is exactly what happened with the Counter Terrorism Act 2008, amended February 2009.

My simple view is this:

Ask the police if they see a man or a person before them, a man can be seen but a person can only be identified. The police reform act is just a coercion to contract by identifying you are a 'person'
Without a name,address, DOB, they cannot identify a person.
If the police say they see a man, then they must provide the authority they have over men. I haven't seen any act of parliament that relate to men, have you?

It is for this very reason that I have made the decision to travel with no identification. Even if searched without my consent, there will be zero identification, so that the person remains elsewhere.

The Right to remain silent and the ability for the person to remain unidentified.
Both will be used to their fullest.

[oghene]

It is for this very reason that I have made the decision to travel with no identification. Even if searched without my consent, there will be zero identification, so that the person remains elsewhere.

The Right to remain silent and the ability for the person to remain unidentified.
Both will be used to their fullest.

I concur.

I used to have a thick wallet full of various methods to identify my 'person', now I travel with only cash I need.

Its blood amazing how they use force and threats to get us to contract.

[ex sheep]

Question, if you were questioned/detained and forced to be searched, would finding ID on you be the same as you informing them of who you are, eg the person.

[oghene]

Question, if you were questioned/detained and forced to be searched, would finding ID on you be the same as you informing them of who you are, eg the person.

"In effect, a suspect may not be searched, even where consent is provided, in an absence of 'reasonable suspicion'; a procedural stumbling block to the unfettered use of knife arches," said transport police evidence to the MPs' inquiry into knife crime.

"An exception to the procedural prohibition on the conduct of voluntary searches, however, is where submission to examination is a condition of entry to a named premises of a specific location. In relation to policing the railways, one [possibility] may be to have as a condition of carriage, when people purchase a ticket, that they agree to being searched."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/13/knife-crime-police-gang-violence

If you did not give your consent, then anything found on you is invalid. Any charges arising from the search is invalid.

Consent makes the law

[tom bombadil]

If you did not give your consent, then anything found on you is invalid. Any charges arising from the search is invalid.

Consent makes the law

Bingo.

[shansuke]

Just when were you a lad?

Before now, the police had tons of lea-way in interpreting the law. Have you seen Escape from mars? They were like that.

Now however they know that they are being watched and are less likely to hold you for too long.

The secret of course is to make a claim for your time lost, and thus not mind too much on your own detention/arrest.

From what I have seen and read, I think that they try to declare you insane at some point :p. But just remember that as soon as they use force or threat to get you to contract then you can quite happily use your phone call to call a freind that is in the know. Do you have a knowlegable freind?


Nelly.


it wasn't that long ago,early 90's,but feels a liftime.
i think a lot of the time its just your luck what type of cops you get,some will follow the rules to an extent,others will simply kick the shit out of you until they get some kind of info out of you(regardless of wether its the rite info or not,sometimes they dont realy care weather its true or not as long as you give them something.)

up here in glasgow anyway i think it also depends on what you look like to the copper,if you look to them like someone whos had a past with the law then chances are they will just give you a good kicking until you tell them,but if you look to them like someone who may have an education,a good job or come from a good area then they may think twice about how they handle the situation and play a bit more to the rules.
(remember the police are the biggest steriotypes,its how they work,and they think they can tell a life storey just by looking at you,they will tell you this themselfs.)

i will get a pull by them sooner or later as its the law of avereges where i live,and when the time comes i will keep my mouth shut and do the weekender or night in jail,and when i go to court the next day i will ask to speak to my lawyer(who is a top lawyer) and tell him why i kept my mouth shut and let him explain it to the judge,BUT,and its just my personal opinion thru past experiences and what not,i honestly dont think it will work,im positive they will find some sort of charge to pin on you for wasting their time or whatever.

oh and someone else was asking about if they find ID on you,well i dont think it matters,they have to get you to tell them your name.
i know this because the verry first time i got a night in the sells as a 16 year old i told them my name was donald duck,or mickey mouse or something like that as i just wanted to act hard i think at the time(oh how we grow up):rolleyes:,anyway they kept comming in all night asking me my name(they even gave me a few punches),i was young and stupid and had written my name on the wall,lol,they knew this and said to me"look we already know your name is such and such,but untill you tell us that and sign some forms we can hold you as long as we want",so this turnkey new my name but was addiment that unless i admited it then i was in for the weekend and would go to court as normal on the monday morning instead of getting let out and having a court date sent thru to me.

oh and btw,they gave me all my un opened booze back to,the guy said it was law weather i was under age or not,it was my property,lol,theirs you brekfast he said.
just thaught i would add that bit even tho i feel a bit embaresed about those days as a whole now.

[number_6]

That rubbish is just for persons, I'm not a person, and if everyone was to wake up to that fact including you, we would be in a position to get out of this stupid law system.

That's fine. But then surely it would follow that the statutes and Court cases mentioned in pleasuredome's link would also not apply?

[oghene]

it wasn't that long ago,early 90's,but feels a liftime.
i think a lot of the time its just your luck what type of cops you get,some will follow the rules to an extent,others will simply kick the shit out of you until they get some kind of info out of you(regardless of wether its the rite info or not,sometimes they dont realy care weather its true or not as long as you give them something.)

up here in glasgow anyway i think it also depends on what you look like to the copper,if you look to them like someone whos had a past with the law then chances are they will just give you a good kicking until you tell them,but if you look to them like someone who may have an education,a good job or come from a good area then they may think twice about how they handle the situation and play a bit more to the rules.
(remember the police are the biggest steriotypes,its how they work,and they think they can tell a life storey just by looking at you,they will tell you this themselfs.)

i will get a pull by them sooner or later as its the law of avereges where i live,and when the time comes i will keep my mouth shut and do the weekender or night in jail,and when i go to court the next day i will ask to speak to my lawyer(who is a top lawyer) and tell him why i kept my mouth shut and let him explain it to the judge,BUT,and its just my personal opinion thru past experiences and what not,i honestly dont think it will work,im positive they will find some sort of charge to pin on you for wasting their time or whatever.

oh and someone else was asking about if they find ID on you,well i dont think it matters,they have to get you to tell them your name.
i know this because the verry first time i got a night in the sells as a 16 year old i told them my name was donald duck,or mickey mouse or something like that as i just wanted to act hard i think at the time(oh how we grow up):rolleyes:,anyway they kept comming in all night asking me my name(they even gave me a few punches),i was young and stupid and had written my name on the wall,lol,they knew this and said to me"look we already know your name is such and such,but untill you tell us that and sign some forms we can hold you as long as we want",so this turnkey new my name but was addiment that unless i admited it then i was in for the weekend and would go to court as normal on the monday morning instead of getting let out and having a court date sent thru to me.

oh and btw,they gave me all my un opened booze back to,the guy said it was law weather i was under age or not,it was my property,lol,theirs you brekfast he said.
just thaught i would add that bit even tho i feel a bit embaresed about those days as a whole now.

A lawyers oath and duty is to the law society (The Bar), it is to the court and not to you dear fellow, so they have no obligation to help you.

[scotty99]

Now I'm pretty new to this. Just watched some of the anti terrorist youtube vids. Now if you do get put in a cell for refusing to give your details,, don't they have to make sure that all items that could be used to harm yourself are removed before you enter the cell? ie- shoelaces so you cant try to hang yourself.

Now if I say "I dont consent to removing my shoelaces" , can they remove them by force?

I have learnt more in the last 2 weeks watching the anti terrorist, amazing

[tom bombadil]

Now I'm pretty new to this. Just watched some of the anti terrorist youtube vids. Now if you do get put in a cell for refusing to give your details,, don't they have to make sure that all items that could be used to harm yourself are removed before you enter the cell? ie- shoelaces so you cant try to hang yourself.

Now if I say "I dont consent to removing my shoelaces" , can they remove them by force?

I have learnt more in the last 2 weeks watching the anti terrorist, amazing

Hullo.

Putting it simple. From the point that they took you off of the streets, they were violating you rights. Everything after that is more of the same.

They are there to imtimidate you from the go-get. Dont panic. dont agree to a thing. and you will be fine. Then charge them for your time and the kidnap.


Nelly.

[scotty99]

Cheers Nelly! Can they touch you to take out your laces, because im guessing they cant put you in a cell with them in. Just seeing if that would be considered assault by forceably removing them, and a loophole to stop you spending time in a cell?

regards Scott

[smoky]

Hullo.

Putting it simple. From the point that they took you off of the streets, they were violating you rights. Everything after that is more of the same.

They are there to imtimidate you from the go-get. Dont panic. dont agree to a thing. and you will be fine. Then charge them for your time and the kidnap.


Nelly.

What is the correct procedure for charging them for my time and kidnap?

[tom bombadil]

In the eyes of the cops you are guilty until proven innocent. They will only remove the laces if they think you will cause self harm or if it will intimidate you. Remember that by them thinking that you have contracted with them, then they will do pretty much anything that they think that they can get away with. It is only you at the time that knows your full rights and your position in law. You cant realy claim damages unless you have told them before hand in writing.

Put another way.......You kill a dog on the street. The cops or RSPCA come to tell you that you have been naughty. It is only then that they find out that you have a dog killing licence. You are fine. If you showed them the licence before they, say, took you to court, then at court it is found out that you do have a licence to kill and its case dissmissed. You then fight for wasted time. Thats how it works in their world.

So when a cop takes you in, he is not worried at all, as he is doing everything by the (their) book. But in our instance we are efectivly producing a 'licence' that they know nothing of. So it will only come out later.



nelly

[danster82]

If you think about it you need no understanding of anything to realise that if they dont know who you are they have no identifaction and you dont tell them your name... well you understand that its all systematic so how can they possibly proceed?

But habeas corpus should protect you from being detained indefintely which was scraped?

The reason they were detaining him was likely because that if no identification has been given nothing has been logged and therefore as far as anyone is concerned there is no one being detained... he may be a genuine crimnal and they may play these games with the police so the police just play it back by holding them for as long as they like.

[slodave]

anyone who would want to become a cop, or is one, has some sort of mental problem; control freak, chip on shoulder, whatever. one on one, w/o a witness; you lose! the judge will believe the cop. in reality, the cop is the judge and knows he can do whatever he wants to you. they're all different. in my eyes, they're all twisted, and have a "God complex" and can be difficult to deal with. if they detect fear, sarcasm, or intelect, you could be in serious trouble. act humble, it might work, depends on the mood and mentality. my only advise is. eggshells.... be careful, you have no rights and they know it! one reporters opinion

[slodave]

bullshit! where i come from, no I.D., you,re going to jail, for not co-operating, resisting arrest, at the very least. fingerprints will give them all the info they need, and legally they can hold you 72 hrs.

[smoky]

bullshit! where i come from, no I.D., you,re going to jail, for not co-operating, resisting arrest, at the very least. fingerprints will give them all the info they need, and legally they can hold you 72 hrs.

Is this correct? I thought it was 24 hours after which they charge you or release you or bail you?

[juddfinn]

anyone who would want to become a cop, or is one, has some sort of mental problem; control freak, chip on shoulder, whatever. one on one, w/o a witness; you lose! the judge will believe the cop. in reality, the cop is the judge and knows he can do whatever he wants to you. ... be careful, you have no rights and they know it! one reporters opinion

Two years ago, one Sunday Morning, I heard a knock on the door and opened it to see two Police and a 'friend' standing in the snow! "Are you Mr XXXX XXXXX" they asked, to which I foolishly said "Yes" (not knowing what I do now). It turns out that they had come to enforce collection of a laptop that I was holding on to, until the said 'friend' who was standing behind them, had paid up on a debt to me (which stood at over £500).

The Police said I would be arrested and charged with theft if I didn't hand it over immediately. Wha?:eek:

I had just woken up and I was not at my sharpest, but I did mention that it was about money owed to me and, and ... they interupted saying that it didn't matter, I would be arrested if I didn't bring out the laptop. I said "OK" but I wanted to say something first... then I spoke the following words "I took the laptop 'hostage' and said at the time they can have it back when they pay me my monies, I'm not interested in the laptop, don't want it, never intended to keep it and don't even want to use it." At that the policeman said "...I've got no time to stand around listening to all this, I've been here an hour already" and he motioned towards the back of his belt where the cuffs hang and made a step towards me at the door... which kind of took me by surprise and I just said quickly "...OK, just wait a minute" and I went and got the laptop... gave it to them, they handed it over to the 'friend', then they all left. At the time I thought it the easiest, least hassle solution. But obviously I was hoodwinked.

In fact the words I started to use at the door states clearly what constitues the distinction between a CIVIL MATTER and a CRIMINAL one (not that I clearly knew it at the time, just acting instinctively) and that's what he recognised and why he didn't want to hear me finish speaking.

I did later speak my piece/peace to an admin clerk after dialling for the Police Station (it goes through 'centrally' - which helped) and they gave me a lot of assistance & information on what had been reported/what to do next etc. I found out later that I shouldn't have got access to what was written about me (very interesting:)).

Later the next night I shoved this in the direction of the Police Officer looking after the station (in question) and they agreed that it was the true definition of theft.

Definition of Theft

A person is guilty of theft if: s/he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

Reference: Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968.
Last Updated: 25/7/2008

It turned out that the Police had been waiting outside my house - in their car and the snow - according to them, for an hour? Just waiting for my 'friend' to turn up before they knocked. Then acting like Judge/Jury and collection thugs.:o

Maybe their stats for the month needed an easy upward boost. But if they had pondered the 'case' awhile it was very clear that it was solely a CIVIL MATTER in which they had no part to play, or at most to just stand by and keep the peace while my 'friend' asked (and got refusal) for the laptop back.

The Police only knew where to call for me & the item in question because I had informed its owner that I now had taken it 'hostage', thereby removing the first part of the definition of THEFT (dishonesty). Also, as I had made it clear that its immediate return was conditional on being paid the money. Which you could say had been 'stolen'* from me (*owed to me) in the first instance, and my words would cover the "intention of permanently depriving" bit as well. Also, it's worth a mention, that the laptop had been left in my possession and I later decided to hold onto it until I got paid. I hadn't actually gone out and 'stolen' it from them.

What a waste of police time... but it has taught me a lot. :(

And, needless to say the person in question hasn't paid the money owing (two years later now) as I knew would be the case.

I did think about an IPCC complaints report, but what would that achieve? I followed up the Police Station visit with a letter and called them a few times to get some satisfaction (I had been asking for the details of the P.C.'s in question to make my report) but always drew a blank.

What a surprise.:rolleyes: