how old is the universe ?

[penguin]

This is a question to all you religious people. As it is something that interest me about how you imply that god made us and everything.


The guestimate is that our universe is 20 billion years old, our own planet has had human life on it for at least 10 - 30 thousand years.

BUT....
acording to the religious ones, god made life 2-5000 years or so ago !!!!!

I ask you, why did god wait 20 billion years before he thought

"ah!, I know, I will make man an I will play all sorts of mind games with him"

And...

How can religious people believe that there is an invisable force that believes in magic to create life.....

but yet dismiss life from another planet ?
And dismiss science and evolution ?
None of which are magic or an illusion.

Read through your book of biblical bull, and read all the parts of which god performed his magic, his so called miracles, an ask yourself...

"why the fuck, would he do all the things that he did, to this planet, then create other planets with life on (to trick us or test us)" (isnt that an abuse of power for his own entertainment!)

BUT.....

out of interest!!! if you disagree with me on the fact that god didnt create life, I ask you how old do you think our universe is ?????

P.S.
I dont want to read, quotes from your bible of what one man claims a higher forced told him.

I want your thoughts.

If you totaly disagree with me....

Then forgive me and I will forgive you for your ignorance to science.

[uncia]

Wtf?

[penguin]

Wtf?

If you dont get what I am trying to say then...... for you....

GOD doesnt exsist, there is no evidence to say that god created this planet and life.
The universe has been around alot longer then this solar system or the thought of god.

It really grinds my gears to think we live a world full of delusional people who talk to something that isnt there, or even ask's for advice from an imaginary higher being.

Try going to the doctor and say.....
"I asked for advice, from an invisible imaginary force, that doesnt reply to me, but I know what it wants me to do!!!!!"

You would get locked up, but if insert "GOD" into the statement, OH! WELL!!! thats different.

It is a crock of crap, GOD is just a bedtime story to scare the kids.
I am open for all scientific evidence that proves he exsist but there isnt any.

GOD is a joke and I laugh in his face if he exsist.
In his name we are killing each other, stealing from each other and destroying the earths resources in his name.

GOD is just a bank account.

[rhydra]

With the passing of time, aeons and civilisations there will be many religions. Some alter and tweak their teachings to take into account the myriad discoveries of the workings of the universe, world and mind.

The clincher when Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc should have called it a day was when it was discovered that the planet we live on travels around the sun and the sun is a mostly insignificant ball of hydrogen in an insignificant part of a galaxy in an insignificant part of the universe.

There will be life, consciousness and civilisations out there which no one will ever know of or begin to comprehend their technological advancement, they might have their own religions, I doubt it though, for to become advanced many levels beyond that of the human understanding will never happen from the shackles of theistic beliefs.

My opinion anyway. :o

[penguin]

With the passing of time, aeons and civilisations there will be many religions. Some alter and tweak their teachings to take into account the myriad discoveries of the workings of the universe, world and mind.

The clincher when Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc should have called it a day was when it was discovered that the planet we live on travels around the sun and the sun is a mostly insignificant ball of hydrogen in an insignificant part of a galaxy in an insignificant part of the universe.

There will be life, consciousness and civilisations out there which no one will ever know of or begin to comprehend their technological advancement, they might have their own religions, I doubt it though, for to become advanced many levels beyond that of the human understanding will never happen from the shackles of theistic beliefs.

My opinion anyway. :o

:)

[kasalt]

This is a question to all you religious people. As it is something that interest me about how you imply that god made us and everything.

The guestimate is that our universe is 20 billion years old, our own planet has had human life on it for at least 10 - 30 thousand years.

BUT....
acording to the religious ones, god made life 2-5000 years or so ago !!!!!

Not according to the Hindus:

"According to Hindu mythology and cosmology the universe is cyclically created and destroyed. The life span of Lord Brahma, the creator, is 100 'Brahma-Years'. One day in the life of Brahma is called a Kalpa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_%28time_unit%29) or 4.32 billion years (the approximate life span of the earth)". -- Quoted from: "Hindu cosmology" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology)


"Science writers Carl Sagan and Fritjof Capra have pointed out similarities between the latest scientific understanding of the age of the universe, and the Hindu concept of a "day and night of Brahma", which is much closer to the current known age of the universe than other creation myths. The days and nights of Brahma posit a view of the universe that is divinely created, and is not strictly evolutionary, but an ongoing cycle of birth, death, and rebirth of the universe. According to Sagan:
The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which time scales correspond to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scale still.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_creationism#cite_note-7)
"Capra, in his popular book The Tao of Physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics), wrote that:
This idea of a periodically expanding and contracting universe, which involves a scale of time and space of vast proportions, has arisen not only in modern cosmology, but also in ancient Indian mythology. Experiencing the universe as an organic and rhythmically moving cosmos, the Hindus were able to develop evolutionary cosmologies which come very close to our modern scientific models. One of these cosmologies is based on the Hindu myth of lila—the divine play—in which Brahman transforms himself into the world.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_creationism#cite_note-8)"

-- Quoted from: "Hindus and evolution" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_creationism#Hindus_and_evolution)

[penguin]

kasalt
Nice post, thanks for that.
:)

[dedicate]

Why is that a nice post, Penguin? The Hindu Cosmology still has the existance of God behind it all, creating it all, Sustaining it all and Destroying it all, forever and forever, an endless series of very dramatic and incalculable cycles. A God who you laugh in the face of. The same God the Christian believe but not the same Cosmology the Christians accept.

People who believe this Cosmology are not just Hindu. But they are Religious.-- and your question was directed toward "religious people". So your real question then had nothing to do with all religions but was directed toward Modern Christian Sects who believe only certain things.

[uncia]

Fact is there is a lot of misconception about the bible. For a start, it is obvious that the word "day" in the bible can extend to many thousands of years.

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son [a] ;
today I have become your Father.

This was spoken 1000 years before Christ came to earth. Yet Christ was not begotten for another 1000 years, and it was still "today".

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Its obvious that the biblical "day" does not necessarily equate to 24 hours. In prophetic terms, one day means one year. In Genesis, the word day is merely defined by the separation of light from darkness; and not by any time period.

5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night."

So as long as there is light, there is day. Go outside the confines of the earth, and there is always light. So a day can mean a billion years.

As for the rest of your post: when you are facing death, I prophecy God will laugh in your face.

[penguin]

dedicate
Hi man, It was a nice post because it was polite informative and it wasnt insulting.

I wasnt looking for "WTF" or some verbal war, I was looking for......
Well it doesnt matter does it !


uncia
What ever!

When I die, there will be no god, no heavens or pearly gates. there will be nothing, No thoughts, No crazy white bearded freak, preaching or laughing at me.

Death is the end. The end of all this bull****
An I look forward to it, because the world is been eaten alive by religion and greed.

[uncia]

... the world is been eaten alive by religion and greed.
There are a lot of religious prats and greedy people. However I fail to see why they should influence anyone's decision to believe in God.

[kasalt]

when you are facing death, I prophecy God will laugh in your face.

Why would an infinitely wise and loving God do such a churlish thing?

Your perception of God is only a reflection of yourself.

[uncia]

Why would an infinitely wise and loving God do such a churlish thing?

Your perception of God is only a reflection of yourself.

Pro 3:33 The curse of the LORD [is] in the house of the wicked:

=================================

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

[penguin]

I look about this beautiful world an I see death.

Death of a planet that once held life, weep not because the planet will rebirth and continue its cycle. Its life will continue for ever.

An in all this, right up untill the point of destruction. Humans will still be argueing about god, or fighting about what they want to own or control.

I wonder how far down the road we would be if GOD wasnt in the equation.

Would we realise that the universe, the solar system, the galaxy our planet does not belong to anybody.
We are just guest on this spinning rock, an at any point we can be removed.

I would quiet happily fly into a black hole to get away from religion or god.
To be honest I would do it just to get away from humans.
Because I think we are nothing more then argumentative parasites.
:)

[the infinite one]

Question: How old is the universe?

Answer: There is no time.

There's no right or wrong answer, there is only the NOW!

I just don't understand how people can think the universe was created, which is time bound and in the past tense.

[penguin]

:)

[asha loka]

If there's no time, I'd like to be 25 again.

That still makes me younger than the universe. Which is nice.

[supertzar]

I think 20 billion seems ridiculously short. The Big Bang theory never seemed correct to me. There may have never been a beginning.

[penguin]

I think 20 billion seems ridiculously short. The Big Bang theory never seemed correct to me. There may have never been a beginning.

Yeah I agree with you and "infinite one".

Although!, the big bang theory could be used to explain a galaxies time cycle.

[kasalt]

Pro 3:33 The curse of the LORD [is] in the house of the wicked:

=================================

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

Okay, let's look at that passage in context.

Proverbs 1:20-22 clearly identify the speaker as female, therefore the speaker cannot be God unless you consider God to be female, which, being a fundamental-type Christian, I'm assuming you don't.

In this case, wisdom is personified as Sophia. So what we have here is not God per se, but rather, a personification of an abstract concept. I'd say this is yet another example of a personification being no better than the reflection of the person who personified it.

----------

Edit: I should have included this:

Ezekiel 33:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=33&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

[majorlee]

This is a question to all you religious people. As it is something that interest me about how you imply that god made us and everything.


The guestimate is that our universe is 20 billion years old, our own planet has had human life on it for at least 10 - 30 thousand years.

BUT....
acording to the religious ones, god made life 2-5000 years or so ago !!!!!

I ask you, why did god wait 20 billion years before he thought

"ah!, I know, I will make man an I will play all sorts of mind games with him"

And...

How can religious people believe that there is an invisable force that believes in magic to create life.....

but yet dismiss life from another planet ?
And dismiss science and evolution ?
None of which are magic or an illusion.

Read through your book of biblical bull, and read all the parts of which god performed his magic, his so called miracles, an ask yourself...

"why the fuck, would he do all the things that he did, to this planet, then create other planets with life on (to trick us or test us)" (isnt that an abuse of power for his own entertainment!)

BUT.....

out of interest!!! if you disagree with me on the fact that god didnt create life, I ask you how old do you think our universe is ?????

P.S.
I dont want to read, quotes from your bible of what one man claims a higher forced told him.

I want your thoughts.

If you totaly disagree with me....

Then forgive me and I will forgive you for your ignorance to science.


The Universe is Infinite, Time and Space is Infinite

there was no big bang, there was no creator, it just is becasue its infinite, life is present on the infinitly small and we are just atoms of a larger being

love the MiB marbles scene at the end - this can be a way of visualizing how it works, because our minds cannot yet grasp the Infinite totally

IMO! lol

Question: How old is the universe?

Answer: There is no time.

There's no right or wrong answer, there is only the NOW!

I just don't understand how people can think the universe was created, which is time bound and in the past tense.

this is where i am coming from too - we used to think the sun went around the earth and it was flat - soon our findings will change our train of thought on the universe too

[penguin]

kasalt stop bibble bashing uncia, and uncia dont bibble bash kasalt back please. :)

the point is to ask you, where if anywhere does god fit in with science and the universe.

I mean, do you agree with the statement that the universe has always exsisted ?

[kasalt]

the point is to ask you, where if anywhere does god fit in with science and the universe.

I mean, do you agree with the statement that the universe has always exsisted ?

I can tell you what science says, and I can tell you what religion says, but speaking for myself...I have no idea.

:D

[penguin]

majorlee
love the MiB marbles scene at the end - this can be a way of visualizing how it works, because our minds cannot yet grasp the Infinite totally


Have you seen the ending to Brainstorm (1983 film) with Christopher Walken.
If you liked MIB you will be blown away with that.
:)

[arty2000]

This is a question to all you religious people. As it is something that interest me about how you imply that god made us and everything.


The guestimate is that our universe is 20 billion years old, our own planet has had human life on it for at least 10 - 30 thousand years.

BUT....
acording to the religious ones, god made life 2-5000 years or so ago !!!!!

I ask you, why did god wait 20 billion years before he thought

"ah!, I know, I will make man an I will play all sorts of mind games with him"

And...

How can religious people believe that there is an invisable force that believes in magic to create life.....

but yet dismiss life from another planet ?
And dismiss science and evolution ?
None of which are magic or an illusion.

Read through your book of biblical bull, and read all the parts of which god performed his magic, his so called miracles, an ask yourself...

"why the fuck, would he do all the things that he did, to this planet, then create other planets with life on (to trick us or test us)" (isnt that an abuse of power for his own entertainment!)

BUT.....

out of interest!!! if you disagree with me on the fact that god didnt create life, I ask you how old do you think our universe is ?????

P.S.
I dont want to read, quotes from your bible of what one man claims a higher forced told him.

I want your thoughts.

If you totaly disagree with me....

Then forgive me and I will forgive you for your ignorance to science.

same age as you...;)

[penguin]

same age as you...;)

oh! hey! that is deep....
;)

[arty2000]

oh! hey! that is deep....
;)

deep as you want it to be;)

[deadskinball]

grinds my gears to think we live a world full of delusional people

100%

Human stupidity will be the death of us all.

[majorlee]

majorlee


Have you seen the ending to Brainstorm (1983 film) with Christopher Walken.
If you liked MIB you will be blown away with that.
:)

will check it out thanx :)

Originally Posted by penguin View Post
grinds my gears to think we live a world full of delusional people


we are all one - the world is the way it is because we have the conflicts within ourselves - its a reflection

[uncia]

Edit: I should have included this:

Ezekiel 33:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=33&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked...
You should have included the second part of the passage:

turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
This gives the true sense. It is saying that if the wicked repent, he shall not perish on account of his former sins. But is it clear that he shall perish if he does not repent, which is what I refer to:

Ez 33:14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

Ez 33:15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

[uncia]

the point is to ask you, where if anywhere does god fit in with science and the universe.

I mean, do you agree with the statement that the universe has always exsisted ?
The question is pointless, if you are declaring that God does not exist. Ultimately the answer is that as God created the universe, it is as old as it is.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The key to the age of the universe is found in the above passages. Does not exactly tell you much. End of answer. The bible has nothing to say on the age of the universe.

[tracker]

the universe was born in about the 20th centry .

before that ------------it was the sky or the heavens .

I am 40 years old

and there for , the universe is only 40 years old to me .

it will differ from person to person .

but since i am only 40 years old , and no other human being has lived byond 140 years old , no one can prove that it is older than that .

people say "well its billions of years old"

well het--ham , How would they know ? they are not billions of years old , and just because a machine adjusts to atoms to say that its billions of years old , a machine does not have a brain or a mind , and there for , cannot think , it only actds acordingly to how it is built , and there for cannot make any decisions of it self , and there for , the data believed is wrong .

my universe is 40 years old .

to me ---------------and you------------it will never get older than 150 years , if we could live that long otherwise its a national average of about 80 to 90 years , and thats as simple as it gets .

:cool:

[penguin]

The question is pointless, if you are declaring that God does not exist. Ultimately the answer is that as God created the universe, it is as old as it is.

The key to the age of the universe is found in the above passages. Does not exactly tell you much. End of answer. The bible has nothing to say on the age of the universe.


Pointless !
hmm

its as old as it is.
ok!

I am sooo glad I dont believe in silly bedstime storys!
I love to question things, I enjoy science, I like computers, telescopes, observatories and science labs.

I enjoy been able to offer suggestions of science and theories.
I revel in the thought that life can be created brom bacteria. That evolution and the equilibrium of our planet and the moon, makes us the way we are, the shape we are.

Science is big, Science is important, Science is needed more then a silly imaginary friend.

Science is in no way pointless
If you cannot find away to fit the both together then it is god that is pointless.

As at the moment it is science that is keeping you alive not god.

[penguin]

the universe was born in about the 20th centry .

before that ------------it was the sky or the heavens .

I am 40 years old

and there for , the universe is only 40 years old to me .

it will differ from person to person .

but since i am only 40 years old , and no other human being has lived byond 140 years old , no one can prove that it is older than that .

people say "well its billions of years old"

well het--ham , How would they know ? they are not billions of years old , and just because a machine adjusts to atoms to say that its billions of years old , a machine does not have a brain or a mind , and there for , cannot think , it only actds acordingly to how it is built , and there for cannot make any decisions of it self , and there for , the data believed is wrong .

my universe is 40 years old .

to me ---------------and you------------it will never get older than 150 years , if we could live that long otherwise its a national average of about 80 to 90 years , and thats as simple as it gets .

:cool:

interesting :)

What about the thought that.....
If you got into a space ship and flew away from the earth in a straight line and flew for a year in your ships calendar. would you still be 41 or would you have to say...
"I was 41 upon leaving earth"
As when you travel away from the planet your time scale would become different then that of the planet.
As you wouldnt be orbiting in a yearly cycle around the sun.

Your age would be calculated when you came back to earth.
:)

[tracker]

interesting :)

What about the thought that.....
If you got into a space ship and flew away from the earth in a straight line and flew for a year in your ships calendar. would you still be 41 or would you have to say...
"I was 41 upon leaving earth"
As when you travel away from the planet your time scale would become different then that of the planet.
As you wouldnt be orbiting in a yearly cycle around the sun.

Your age would be calculated when you came back to earth.
:)

well i suppose that a year is a mesurement of the movement of the earth around the sun , there for , one cannot get older in years in space .
one can age to the "equivelent of " earth years , but not age in years because one isnt on earth anymore .;)

technicly , time is a measurment of movement of the earth in relationship to its position around the sun .
IE
an hour is 1 ---24th of a full rotaion of earth .
a minute is 1--------------60th of the hour and a second one 60th of that .

thus , even though the speed of light stays constant , it is irrelevent to time .

why ?:confused:

because if light travels such and such miles per second , we are talking about light traveling such and such in coordance to the amount of movement the earth has travelled . IE one second is the earths movement .:)

so what we have , is that light has traveled so many miles in relationship to how far earth has travelled .

so why is earth so important as a reference point ?:confused:

once we are in space , earths movement is irelevent to our relative point in space and time , and since time is only relative to how far earth has moved , it there for means , that technicly , time and space cannot coexist beyond earth .:rolleyes:

it is only space and movement .:eek:

fk this , its so difficult to pin point it out lol :D

pmsl .

:cool:

[penguin]

:rolleyes:
ha ha ha

ace!, that hurt my head reading that.

So what your saying is your age would be no difference but! your body wouldnt be ageing at the same rate as it would do on the planet.

Been that it is the gravitational pull that ages us on the earth planet.

Meaning you could return to earth and be classed as 60 but your internal body clock would be at 50.

(there is no calculation done there, just used 50 and 60 as an example:))

[tracker]

:rolleyes:
ha ha ha

ace!, that hurt my head reading that.

So what your saying is your age would be no difference but! your body wouldnt be ageing at the same rate as it would do on the planet.

Been that it is the gravitational pull that ages us on the earth planet.

Meaning you could return to earth and be classed as 60 but your internal body clock would be at 50.

(there is no calculation done there, just used 50 and 60 as an example:))


absolutly well done .:cool:

its true , our body clock would begin to slow down , because the gravitational rythm would be none existant .

but we would be looked upon when we come back in accordance to earth days/years etc .

some one , isnt telling every one , things they need to know .

this is also why i think that TPTB perposly stop us space exploring , because the truth would be known .

for instance , if we lived on mars ( mars years are nearly 2 years to ours ) we would live twice as long .and we would move twice as fast .

our body clocks would slow down , and there for we would live longer , and return to earth in the equivelance of 200 years old .

:cool:

this chat is brill !;)

[tracker]

Listen to this then .

Scientists are trying to find out "how far can we travel in the smallest amount of time possible" ?

well thats simple ---------------nowhere ! everywhere !

how

because time is only relevent according to the measurement of earths movement ( yes ? )

well , time ( being a concept of a particle and wave form IE light travelling )
is a concept of movement in space , thus when we say " time" we are saying that it is a concept ( earths movement ) of movement in space .

so when we say "how far can we travel in the smallest amount of time possible " ?

we are actually saying this

how far can we travell , in the smallest amount of movement in space .????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????:eek:


:confused:



:cool:

[penguin]

this chat is brill !

I Agree :)
but there is no need to shout! ha ha

This is where the religion is inserted. to distract people from the true science of life....
"we are free, without god"

As a race of living beings, we need to look at the true greater value of life.
The true meaning of life..... How to save life!

This is where science comes in, to save life...... you need to teach life how to save itself.

If the world wasnt so wrapped up in its self with money and religion, we would be in space by now and people wouldnt be dying over money or just for food.

God is just a bank account. ker ching!

[element]

I Agree :)
but there is no need to shout! ha ha

This is where the religion is inserted. to distract people from the true science of life....
"we are free, without god"

As a race of living beings, we need to look at the true greater value of life.
The true meaning of life..... How to save life!

This is where science comes in, to save life...... you need to teach life how to save itself.

If the world wasnt so wrapped up in its self with money and religion, we would be in space by now and people wouldnt be dying over money or just for food.

God is just a bank account. ker ching!

Do you believe in scientism, that's so naïve! Science is also destroying life, mate.
It's neutral, it's how it is used.

What's your idea of ''to save life''...?

Like going in space would safe you. The same space projects, which cost billions of dollar could be spend elsewhere.

[tracker]

re-edited .

:cool:
:cool:

[uncia]

As at the moment it is science that is keeping you alive not god.
What a ridiculous thing to say.

[element]

religion is an infection , it has killed millions , is the cause of all wars !
and believe it , behind every war , their is always some ones god .

one day i look forward to this desease being totally iradecated .

until then , we are dieing prisoners of "planet of the apes".


where saying "no" to a god , is always seen as a hate crime .

such are the minds of instinctively run , mind controlled ignorant apes .

:cool:
:cool:
I'm not here to defend religion, but a bit of healthy balance would do you people good.
Many wars of the 20th century are just an example.

[penguin]

Listen to this then .

Scientists are trying to find out "how far can we travel in the smallest amount of time possible" ?

well thats simple ---------------nowhere ! everywhere !

how

because time is only relevent according to the measurement of earths movement ( yes ? )

well , time ( being a concept of a particle and wave form IE light travelling )
is a concept of movement in space , thus when we say " time" we are saying that it is a concept ( earths movement ) of movement in space .

so when we say "how far can we travel in the smallest amount of time possible " ?

we are actually saying this

how far can we travell , in the smallest amount of movement in space .????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????:eek:


:confused:



:cool:
ha ha ha

When I see rockets traveling through space, it makes me laugh.
I mean man is fascinated with the internal combustion engine, the spark and heat it gives off.
This type of engine in space is useless, (IMHO)

What I think is an easier way to travel in the smallest amount of time possible, is too use a planets magnetic field to push and pull too.

So rather looking at a way to travel forward through space, you pull from a planets magnetic field.
So in some ways it is not you moving it is the magnetic field around you that is been propelled through space.
A bit like a pin ball machine.
:eek:

[tracker]

reedited


:cool:

[tracker]

ha ha ha

When I see rockets traveling through space, it makes me laugh.
I mean man is fascinated with the internal combustion engine, the spark and heat it gives off.
This type of engine in space is useless, (IMHO)

What I think is an easier way to travel in the smallest amount of time possible, is too use a planets magnetic field to push and pull too.

So rather looking at a way to travel forward through space, you pull from a planets magnetic field.
So in some ways it is not you moving it is the magnetic field around you that is been propelled through space.
A bit like a pin ball machine.
:eek:

well gravitational magnetism does actually cross the expance of space .

it is the weekest to detect , but the strongest force in the universe ( other than the shape of a womans body that is lol and lets face it -------any man would travel life times and many universes just to see a woman lol.).

it would be a fine way forward in the right direction .

:cool:

[penguin]

What a ridiculous thing to say.

What a ridiculous thing to regect!

Science has built the world around you, given you the computer, powered your house. Built your supermarkets and mass production, fed you and clothed you. Healed you when you are ill.

Science has enabled the world to travel and learn new wonders and marvel at everything, all this at the touch of a button.

element
I am fine to find a balance, as Science is all about finding ways forward.

[uncia]

if it was down to the delusional god doers , we would all be dead by now as it is gods will .

Seems to have escaped your notice that of the three worst tyrants in the 20th century that were responsible for over 100 millions deaths, none believed in God.

[uncia]

i would rather fight to the death ...
Sure you would. That's what atheists spend their lives doing.

[tracker]

re-edited because its not nice to give it large just because others have a view.

:cool:

[tracker]

edited to keep the peace .

:cool:

[penguin]

You want to safe life, yet you are a scientismist. I remember a while ago you supported abortion for scientific research.

I would and think everyone should donate their own bodies to science after death.

An to be truthfull, if the world wasnt so filled with greed, hate, control and power hungry sex driven men, Then we wouldnt have abortions.

You see the point I am trying to make... is that we spend that much time argueing over religious morals and right and wrongs, we forget how little time we really have as a species.

I say I would fly into a black hole to get away from god and religion.

The true reason I would go into a black hole would be for science.
So hanging onto a shell for burial or religous purpose is selfish IMHO.

[miracles]

it's around 14.5 billion years old, give or take a billion. who gives a?

Is ther life on mars? Who give us a?

Is there life on other planets? Who gives a?

Are 26000 children dieing a day on earth of starvation? Who gives a?

[penguin]

it's around 14.5 billion years old, give or take a billion. who gives a?

I am going with the notion that it has always been.
For there to be nothing there has to be something, so nothing can exsist.

[tracker]

I would and think everyone should donate their own bodies to science after death.

An to be truthfull, if the world wasnt so filled with greed, hate, control and power hungry sex driven men, Then we wouldnt have abortions.

You see the point I am trying to make... is that we spend that much time argueing over religious morals and right and wrongs, we forget how little time we really have as a species.

I say I would fly into a black hole to get away from god and religion.

The true reason I would go into a black hole would be for science.
So hanging onto a shell for burial or religous purpose is selfish IMHO.

agreed , lets see if we can stay on track .

talking about the age of the universe .

we can apparently see more further into space now with our new telescopes .

we say
"the further we look into space , the further back in time we can see"
well ??????????????????? how does that work out ?
because the light takes ages to get here ?
ok
what does it look like now in real time then ?

surely half of what we think we see -----------isnt there any more , and probably does not even exist any more .

annnnnnnnnnnd ?


are we just figments of light traveling in space ?

why do i ask ?

well , if we are seeing other galaxies millions of miles away , then we are ackowledging their existance .
so ?

is some one watching us all here on earth ?

and in real space time , are we dead already ?-----------according to their relative time ?

has the light of our solar system reached them yet ?

if not ----------we dont exist according to them -----------yet .

and if they stopped watching ----------------would we all vanish ?

if the light from our solar system stopped , would we all stop too ?

it all relates to the concept of time and space and seeing other galaxies .

i mean , if another galaxy can see us , and our light has taken millions of years to get there , how would we know if we are dead or not yet ?

:cool:

its all relative .:eek:

[element]

For there to be nothing there has to be something, so nothing can exsist.
Not possible. Nothing cannot make something, neither can something make nothing. If nothing can exist, it would have existed in the first place, and something wouldn't be.

.

[uncia]

this thread is about how old the universe is , not how old this religious babble is .

I think the common consensus is that its got nothing to do with religion. Therefore I propose the thread be moved elsewhere.

[tracker]

Not possible. Nothing cannot make something, neither can something make nothing. If nothing can exist, it would have existed in the first place, and something wouldn't be.

I suppose this is where that saying comes from

IE

"In an infinate universe EVERYTHING is POSSIBLE
because only NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE".

:cool:

[penguin]

Not possible. Nothing cannot make something, neither can something make nothing. If nothing can exist, it would have existed in the first place, and something wouldn't be.

Claiming that nothing is nothing, is making it something.
So something is nothing, if nothing exsist.

[tracker]

I think the common consensus is that its got nothing to do with religion. Therefore I propose the thread be moved elsewhere.

Yeah look uncia , i was wrong for giving it some --- i hope we can get around this and all talk .

you are entitled to your opinion as much as I .

I apologise to you uncia ---------- please be happy that it is me ( tracker ) who is the asshole and not you .

anyway --------its me who has to live with me -----------not you .

i have re-edited all my posts to prove myself was wrong for doing it the way i did it .

yours truly ---tracker

:cool:

[penguin]

I think the common consensus is that its got nothing to do with religion. Therefore I propose the thread be moved elsewhere.

I dont mean to point dude, but this is the answer from all religions when science is involved.

"Please move it out of the way of our sight"

Sorry it wasnt a slap at you uncia, you just voiced what everyone else wants.
to brush it under the biblical rug.
:)

[element]

Claiming that nothing is nothing, is making it something.
So something is nothing, if nothing exsist.
Your looking at it as a word/concept.
Nothing would have been the case forever, would it have ever been the case.

A blanco paper can't draw by itself.

[miracles]

apparently it takes 58 billion years travelling at the speed of light to reach the end of the KNOWN universe. Dont ask me how they figure that out. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy and there are at least another 100 billion galxies each with 200 billion stars in the milky way.

PS God could have existed for a gazzillion years reading his book infront of the fire before he decided to create our universe.

[tracker]

apparently it takes 58 billion years travelling at the speed of light to reach the end of the KNOWN universe. Dont ask me how they figure that out. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy and there are at least another 100 billion galxies each with 200 billion stars in the milky way.

PS God could have existed for a gazzillion years reading his book infront of the fire before he decided to create our universe.

My mother said something very strange once .

she said

"maybe the universe is expanding so quickly , to allow more peoples minds to enter into it"

kind of a matrix theory really .

:cool:

[penguin]

Your looking at it as a word/concept.
Nothing would have been the case forever, would it have ever been the case.

A blanco paper can't draw by itself.

:D

Sorry :) I was just yanking your chain!

[tracker]

I dont mean to point dude, but this is the answer from all religions when science is involved.


:)

Well if i was to take a real good look at this concept my self .

the age of the universe according to religion may well be some type of metaphore .

IE

religion was the start ( no matter how far back we go ) to attempt reasoning .

a start to the human mind of reason .

and so like my reasoning in my 1st post . relisiouse folks may think that the universe is 7000 years old
but i am only 40
so to me
the universe is 40 years old .

to me
it did not exist before i came here , and will not exist to me when i go .

it is all relative .

:cool:

[miracles]

My mother said something very strange once .

she said

"maybe the universe is expanding so quickly , to allow more peoples minds to enter into it"

kind of a matrix theory really .

:cool:

Not sure if it would need to be as big as it is then, as there arent that many minds. Some believe ALLL OF IT is neccessary to sustain life on this one planet alone.

[tracker]

Not sure if it would need to be as big as it is then, as there arent that many minds. Some believe ALLL OF IT is neccessary to sustain life on this one planet alone.

pmsl , lol ,

but that view that some think it is for earth people only is ? well ? that is shallow and very egotistical .

the whole universe is one massive life pod .

every part of the universe has "THE POTENTIAL" of life , yet cannot exist as life in its own formation . it needs a "set of formations" to exist as a life form .

the reason why i say this is because we as human beings have
iron
copper
zink

and other atoms , all of which are not life forms them self , but can be mixed together in the right set of cercumstances to allow life to exist .

there for
the universe is one massive life pod .

the reasoning to this is erefultable , even in the face of religion .

:cool:

[miracles]

pmsl , lol ,

but that view that some think it is for earth people only is ? well ? that is shallow and very egotistical .

the whole universe is one massive life pod .

every part of the universe has "THE POTENTIAL" of life , yet cannot exist as life in its own formation . it needs a "set of formations" to exist as a life form .

the reason why i say this is because we as human beings have
iron
copper
zink

and other atoms , all of which are not life forms them self , but can be mixed together in the right set of cercumstances to allow life to exist .

there for
the universe is one massive life pod .

the reasoning to this is erefultable , even in the face of religion .

:cool:

There is not enough money or resource on the face of the earth to build one human being. The elements you talk about alone add up to 1,000,000 dollars per body. It is not egotistical at all to believe that our creator created everything for us, considering each one of us is priceless in his site. Not to mention the fact that he tells us so in the bible.

:cool:

[penguin]

Does it actually say in the bible that he considers humans to be priceless in his site.

"Priceless"

a denotion that god would insert the concept of wealth or currency !
Why would he do that ?

[miracles]

Does it actually say in the bible that he considers humans to be priceless in his site.

"Priceless"

a denotion that god would insert the concept of wealth or currency !
Why would he do that ?

No its precious to be exact. You dont come and die for something that aint precious

[penguin]

No its precious to be exact. You dont come and die for something that aint precious

I know, I am sorry, it was an example on how people can inject there own desires into the bible to suit their own needs.

Wealth and money has been (IMHO) the biggest goal for any religion.
This is no ones fault, as we have been brought up this way.
It is the norm! unfortunatly.

But a statement that was believed to of been the true notion of your gods words are...

"The Kingdom of God is inside you and all about you, not in mansions of wood and stone or decorations of gold and silver.
Split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone and you will find me."

A true interpretation of god would be...
You are god, you are, your own guardian of your own days.
you are a

Guard Of Days
Only you control what happens around you and what your world is like or about.
You dont need a church or golden roofs and pretty halls to cellabrate life.
You are life.
No higher invisible force can ever hold judgment or rule over you.

Why dream or preach about something you can never have. Learn the science of the world and the universe around us, then if you believe in god and heaven, you will have some good questions to ask rather then the boring "whats the meaning of life"

because its pointless asking it at the end of life, its past, gone. If you didnt get it in the living world its pointless knowing it after life.

We just chase our tails, till we are dizzy. :)

[miracles]

I know, I am sorry, it was an example on how people can inject there own desires into the bible to suit their own needs.

Wealth and money has been (IMHO) the biggest goal for any religion.
This is no ones fault, as we have been brought up this way.
It is the norm! unfortunatly.

But a statement that was believed to of been the true notion of your gods words are...

"The Kingdom of God is inside you and all about you, not in mansions of wood and stone or decorations of gold and silver.
Split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone and you will find me."

A true interpretation of god would be...
You are god, you are, your own guardian of your own days.
you are a

Guard Of Days
Only you control what happens around you and what your world is like or about.
You dont need a church or golden roofs and pretty halls to cellabrate life.
You are life.
No higher invisible force can ever hold judgment or rule over you.

Why dream or preach about something you can never have. Learn the science of the world and the universe around us, then if you believe in god and heaven, you will have some good questions to ask rather then the boring "whats the meaning of life"

because its pointless asking it at the end of life, its past, gone. If you didnt get it in the living world its pointless knowing it after life.

We just chase our tails, till we are dizzy. :)

You should be sorry for that bunkum too god. :D

[penguin]

You should be sorry for that bunkum too god. :D

I am sorry I was born in a world that has sooo many different problems, its hard to work out where to start and what to finnish with.

The whole belife system is wrong.
The whole concept of life is wrong.
The whole concept of wealth is wrong.

When I look at space, I see freedom.
When I look at earth I see entrapment and control for wealth.

At some point we will learn, that earth is not ours to own, and other life forms have the right to be here on this planet as much as we are.

[fromthatshow]

If you dont get what I am trying to say then...... for you....

GOD doesnt exsist, there is no evidence to say that god created this planet and life.
The universe has been around alot longer then this solar system or the thought of god.

It really grinds my gears to think we live a world full of delusional people who talk to something that isnt there, or even ask's for advice from an imaginary higher being.

Try going to the doctor and say.....
"I asked for advice, from an invisible imaginary force, that doesnt reply to me, but I know what it wants me to do!!!!!"

You would get locked up, but if insert "GOD" into the statement, OH! WELL!!! thats different.

It is a crock of crap, GOD is just a bedtime story to scare the kids.
I am open for all scientific evidence that proves he exsist but there isnt any.

GOD is a joke and I laugh in his face if he exsist.
In his name we are killing each other, stealing from each other and destroying the earths resources in his name.

GOD is just a bank account.

The God of the Bible is most certainly all of those things. God/spirit/love/oneness/truth/whatever the fuck you wanna call it, is real. God did not create life on earth or humans because God can only create what is perfect and eternal. Nothing in this universe is perfect or eternal, hence, God did not create the universe. God created us to be like him, and we have miscreated and now appear to live in a hell which is inescapable.

[penguin]

The God of the Bible is most certainly all of those things. God/spirit/love/oneness/truth/whatever the fuck you wanna call it, is real. God did not create life on earth or humans because God can only create what is perfect and eternal. Nothing in this universe is perfect or eternal, hence, God did not create the universe. God created us to be like him, and we have miscreated and now appear to live in a hell which is inescapable.

Er! ok
I would say the earth is perfectly balanced between the sun and has a perfectly sustained spin to creaate and sustain life.

I dont know about you? but I am perfect and everyone else is, there is no need for a crazy invisible force to remind me that we are life.

Maybe you feel inadequate and imperfect, or is it your belife that makes think you are not worthy.

Buy another cross, it might make you feel better.
:)

[element]

Er! ok
I would say the earth is perfectly balanced between the sun and has a perfectly sustained spin to creaate and sustain life.

I dont know about you? but I am perfect and everyone else is, there is no need for a crazy invisible force to remind me that we are life.

Maybe you feel inadequate and imperfect, or is it your belife that makes think you are not worthy.

Buy another cross, it might make you feel better.
:)
Being imperfect does not mean someone's unworthy. The whole concept of being worthy means something is already imperfect.

[penguin]

Being imperfect does not mean someone's unworthy. The whole concept of being worthy means something is already imperfect.

Sorry..
It was my notion that we as humans are perfect, divine and equal to all, an to believe in a religion that doesnt class you as perfect or divine, then puts you in a lower light then its self.

It creates a hierarchy system before its even begone. It creates control and entrapment to the people who follow or belive in it.
Infects them with fear of been thrown out of its heaven if you do not follow the rules of the religion.

We are free living beings, why would we want to waste time and money following old stories and old religions.

It puzzles me that everyone who follows faith or religion all praise the god and say he is the giver and the light. He provides for us the fruits from his garden.......

But in the same breath!!!
In the other hand you use mobiles and computers and live with science every day of your lives.

People that are religious are hyporcrits, if god provides for you then you shouldnt be using the appliances of science.

You say god doesnt fit in with science, but yet are willing to reap all the benifits of science for your own pleasure and entertainment.

We live in a perfect world....
It is religion that is making it imperfect with its blasphemy towards science.

[element]

Sorry..
It was my notion that we as humans are perfect, divine and equal to all, an to believe in a religion that doesnt class you as perfect or divine, then puts you in a lower light then its self.
In theory, but in reality it isn't like that. You think the child rapist is the same as I don't know what.
In essence we're divine, but what you are doing is ignoring the masks that most people have, which can be quite destructive.
It creates a hierarchy system before its even begone. It creates control and entrapment to the people who follow or belive in it.
Infects them with fear of been thrown out of its heaven if you do not follow the rules of the religion.
Not all of them are like that, that's much generalisation there.
We are free living beings, why would we want to waste time and money following old stories and old religions.
Indeed, you have no interest in it, some others do. Your should join one of those atheist buses.
It puzzles me that everyone who follows faith or religion all praise the god and say he is the giver and the light. He provides for us the fruits from his garden.......
Again not all of them do that. Some teach Self-analysis, self awareness etc.
But in the same breath!!!
In the other hand you use mobiles and computers and live with science every day of your lives.
Mate, your extremely trapped in typical atheist/theist nonsense.
We can all use material things and use science as we like, that doesn't mean we can't search for spiritual things.
People that are religious are hyporcrits, if god provides for you then you shouldnt be using the appliances of science.
I'm not the God defender, but that point you make could be tackled with ''God provided matter to us, and science is one of our ways to understand and use matter''
You say god doesnt fit in with science, but yet are willing to reap all the benifits of science for your own pleasure and entertainment.
I didn't say ANY of that.
We live in a perfect world....
It is religion that is making it imperfect with its blasphemy towards science.
If we live in a perfect world, hey, there's no reason to start a thread and rant at other people, now does it...?
You are contradicting yourself.

[uncia]

People that are religious are hyporcrits, if god provides for you then you shouldnt be using the appliances of science.
I agree with the former, but not with the whole. If God made science and its laws, then religious people have a right to use it as much as anyone else.

In fact it is atheists who are the hypocrites. If there is no god, then why are you using what God has created?

[penguin]

uncia I used it to explain in your termanology, so the "GOD has created" quote is understandable.


Element.
All that we are and ever will do is continue to disagree over the whole thing on religion.
Scientific people will always know, the funemental basics of life, how we were created and how the universe works.
From all of this we advance forward in knowledge and experiences.
What ever scientist are or have worked on it has always moved man forward.

The next step in science is the LHC, everyone is keeping a close eye on it.
As they expect it to blow open the periodic table.
All science ever does is offer answers, solutions, creates new technology.

In alot of ways religion has always tried to hinder and stop science.
All the way through its growth, religion has suppressed science in the name of their god and to protect their church.
Scriptings have been locked away or destroyed because they are too scientific and can questions your gods exsistance.

My thought is this.....

Religion (all) should take a step back for five years, everything put on hold in the name of science.
The world is a mess, lets face it! it doesnt matter how we ended up this way, this is something we all agree on.
If everyone put there religion on hold and we all joined together in the one thought that should be on everyones mind.......

"it is time to save life ourselves"

Religion in my eyes doesnt save life it just distracts you, just like TPTB and the media, it is all about distraction to keep you turning the wheel of their life.

If religion is all for science and evolution..
Why is it classed as a tax relief, you would think that it would be willing to pay the same tax as everyone else.
Considering that they claim to be equal and as empathic towards everyone.

Like I said before, God is just a bank account now it may of been something that people needed in the past, but now it is just another buisness.

A rich one at that.......
Why does religion need money ?
.
.
.
So it can paint its walls with gold and sing praise to the big wedge £££$$$


An to be truthfull, yeah I know I am a hyporcrit, but I am willing to admit that, Science changes all the time, it changes peoples minds and thoughts on why things are or how they work.
It never leaves it too.....

"oh god created that, so there is no need to question it!"

P.S.
Look I am not wanting to offend any one, I am and do think this is a good topic, but religion at some point has to sit back and think....
"is what we are doing helping life or destroying it?"

[penguin]

"sorry thought I was posting this somewhere else"

[element]

Element.
All that we are and ever will do is continue to disagree over the whole thing on religion.
Scientific people will always know, the funemental basics of life, how we were created and how the universe works.
They are speculating. They don't know how we were created. It's all a guess.
The next step in science is the LHC, everyone is keeping a close eye on it.
As they expect it to blow open the periodic table.
All science ever does is offer answers, solutions, creates new technology.
In alot of ways religion has always tried to hinder and stop science.
All the way through its growth, religion has suppressed science in the name of their god and to protect their church.
Scriptings have been locked away or destroyed because they are too scientific and can questions your gods exsistance.
Again generalisation after generalisation.
Please define ''religion''..
An to be truthfull, yeah I know I am a hyporcrit, but I am willing to admit that, Science changes all the time, it changes peoples minds and thoughts on why things are or how they work.
It never leaves it too.....
It changes, yet you claim they know how we were created and how the universe works. All a guess mate, with what we have so far, and still..total objectivity is not possible for humans.

[penguin]

They are speculating. They don't know how we were created. It's all a guess.


So is religion and the thought of a god, everything is guess work.

I mean people follow a religion blindly, because a 2000 or 3000 year old book tells them to.

You cannot prove that a god exsist.
Man can create life and does everyday. Life can and does take on many forms.

Religion is built on speculation and hersay!
Science is built on facts, just because it changes doesnt mean it is wrong or should be discredited by religion.

You can twist my words to mean what you like, make them suit your biblical needs or to make your god or religion look better.
Thats what religion always does, so why break a habbit of a life time.

If science found the cure for cancer and they found it through using methods that go against any church.
The church would be bitching about till they found the cure.

Then I guess you would find all the religous people would be in the same cue to be healed and cured as the rest of us, regardless of how it was discovered.

[element]

Religion is built on speculation and hersay!
Partly true. Speculation and experience.
As Phildee once said, ''man tapped in the divine and after, it wrote down what it saw''
Science is built on facts, just because it changes doesnt mean it is wrong or should be discredited by religion.
How can you be sure of ''facts''? Evolution for example is still not proven.
You can twist my words to mean what you like, make them suit your biblical needs or to make your god or religion look better.
I'm not a Christian.
You keep making things up.

Not surprising, since the first post you go on about your dualism.

[penguin]

Ah so your definition of life is ''matter''...

Partly true. Speculation and experience.
As Phildee once said, ''man tapped in the divine and after, it wrote down what it saw''

How can you be sure of ''facts''? Evolution for example is still not proven.

I'm not a Christian.
You keep making things up.

You chose to coment on all the nonsense and avoided the real comment, about science.
Any religion preaches about its hollyness and how perfectly divine they all are untill they need something from science, like a cure or medication.

Would you acept travel through space, if another life form came down and said...
"your planet is about to blow up, we can offer you transport to another world, but you have to drop religion"

Or would you stand by your morals and say...
"No! because god will look over us and make sure we are safe on this planet"

I recon the world would drop religion like a sack of smelly rocks.

[supertzar]

But science is pretty much the new religion isn't it? People believe what scientists say blindly just like religion. Science may be equally as wrong about the age of the universe as religion. If their never was a beginning, the difference between 6,000 years and 20 billion years is nothing.

[element]

You chose to coment on all the nonsense and avoided the real comment, about science.
No I didn't. Tell me where...:rolleyes:
Any religion preaches about its hollyness and how perfectly divine they all are untill they need something from science, like a cure or medication.
''Any religion'' , tell us which ones and your knowledge about religion please!

Please define ''religion''...!

Who said you can't have religious beliefs or do religious practices and not use some cure or medication? It's things that are taken from our world!
Would you acept travel through space, if another life form came down and said...
"your planet is about to blow up, we can offer you transport to another world, but you have to drop religion"
Keep dreaming '' Beam me up Scotty ''
Define 'religion' please...

[penguin]

No I didn't. Tell me where

If science found the cure for cancer and they found it through using methods that go against any church.
The church would be bitching about till they found the cure.

Then I guess you would find all the religous people would be in the same cue to be healed and cured as the rest of us, regardless of how it was discovered.

Would you stand in the cue, or would you refuse to be healed.

Please define ''religion''...!

Anything that leads people to believe there is an afterlife and a gives praise to something that isnt visable.


'' Beam me up Scotty ''

This is the best :)
you are laughing at me over a notion that I think/know there is life on other planets.
So in your eyes your higher worshiper made man and that was it?
There is no life anywhere else bar on this dying rock ?

Good for you.
I wish I could be that narrow minded.
Did your higher invisible leader tell you, you are the only ones ?
I am sure he may like to lead you to belive you are the only ones, but I asure you, there is life on other worlds.

An I would give anything, to join them in their freedom. This world is messed in the head and drugged by power hungry religous freaks.




So...
here you go this is the one question you all love to answer....

If God is real, why is he letting this world run itself into disrepair. ?
Why does he allow suffering in his name and for wealth. ?
Why do people starve to death from poverty. ?

"Because he said he wouldnt interfear with man again eh!"

With all his glory and power that you all claim he has, he cant even be bothered to clean up the mess that he has created.
Religion is dying slowly, and he doesnt even care, if he does exsist he has left you all to die, he has washed his hands of you all.

If he wanted you to belive in him then he would show his hand of power and have everyone see what wonders he can do.

"that would be a vulgar display of power eh!"

Rubbish!

He doesnt do it because he doesnt exsist. If he does then strike me down dead and call me lucifer.

"oh! sorry was you about to say"

"that would be a vulgar display of power eh!"

ha ha ha hocus pocus two face trickery magic pretending idiots.

[element]

Would you stand in the cue, or would you refuse to be healed.
What kind of cure? How do you know it heals or can be trusted?
Would you take the Swine Flu vaccin?
Anything that leads people to believe there is an afterlife and a gives praise to something that isnt visable.
How about practicing it and realizing it?
Proof is in the practice. But you don't know that because you have no interest in it.
This is the best :)
you are laughing at me over a notion that I think/know there is life on other planets.
It isn't laughing.
So in your eyes your higher worshiper made man and that was it?
There is no life anywhere else bar on this dying rock ?
Who said I believe in a ''higher worshiper'' ...?
Who said I don't believe in extraterrestial life?

More assumptions on your behalf.
Good for you.
I wish I could be that narrow minded.
How? Your projecting things that aren't there.
Did your higher invisible leader tell you, you are the only ones ?
What ''higher invisible leader''?
Who told me we were the only ones?

How did you made all of that up?
I am sure he may like to lead you to belive you are the only ones, but I asure you, there is life on other worlds.
I don't doubt there's life on other worlds.
An I would give anything, to join them in their freedom. This world is messed in the head and drugged by power hungry religous freaks.
So the whole world is messed because of religion? How about communism, or people that kill in the name of a God, yet their scripture tells them that killing is sinful / creates karma. Makes no sense eh.
If you go to a jail, do you think all the criminals are religious? Is every thug religious?

Most of the real thugs and criminals are worshippers of the body, those that think material wealth can save them from trouble. If God is real, why is he letting this world run itself into disrepair. ?
Why does he allow suffering in his name and for wealth. ?
Why do people starve to death from poverty. ?
Maybe your view of God is false..

[penguin]

Maybe your view of God is false

Maybe my view on a fulse god are right :)

I guess we will never know, as no one can prove a god exsist.

[twistedconcept]

But science is pretty much the new religion isn't it? People believe what scientists say blindly just like religion. Science may be equally as wrong about the age of the universe as religion. If their never was a beginning, the difference between 6,000 years and 20 billion years is nothing.

Scientists are the new priesthood. Julian Huxley talks candidly in "Man Stands Alone" about having to destroy the idea of God. They're counting on science to bring in their agenda. They're counting on people accepting their belief in evolution, as it basically states that we're a piece of meat with no soul, so we'll accept anything.

I don't subscribe to any religion. I do, however, feel that there's something more. There are higher forces at work, in my view. It's just a feeling. I'm not arrogant enough to pretend I understand what it is.

My dad is a Christian and is a great man. If you followed the basic principles of Christianity, I think you'd do ok.

[miracles]

Maybe my view on a fulse god are right :)

I guess we will never know, as no one can prove a god exsist.


Actually I can prove to you that God/creator does exist - you can not prove that he/she/it doesnt exist. Using futile metaphors will not win arguement by the way. Like if a UFO landed in your back garden and an alien came out and handed you a chicklet would you believe? Keep it real.

[penguin]

Actually I can prove to you that God/creator does exist - you can not prove that he/she/it doesnt exist. Using futile metaphors will not win arguement by the way. Like if a UFO landed in your back garden and an alien came out and handed you a chicklet would you believe? Keep it real.

ha ha ha
spot on, I was waiting for this :)

You have to prove he/she/it does exsist to prove that something doesnt exsist.

So please enlighten me then, with the prove. (please keep it real)

If another life form came down in my back yard, an handed me anything I would offer something in return. I would ask what I can do for them.

If communication is a problem verbally I know BSL.
I wouldnt disbelieve what I am seeing.


I see the sun rise in a morning, I know it is the sun, I know we orbit the sun, with a moon in our orbit.

Our planet is in a wobble, and has the moon trapped in a forward and backward motion with the earth. this moves the sea backward and forward.

This movement is what is needed to make friction, our planet as it has season, it changes the weather and temperature.
This creates storms, electrical charges and static atmosphears, these elements are just some of the key ingreadiants to make life.

When the sea moves backward and forward it creates movement, this is were bacteria is created.

Life.

This along with the radiation and different elements on the planet creates different life forms.
The cycle of life and evolution will continue long after humans and will always find a way to survive.

So I guess I am asking pointless questions, because life will continue with or without your gods.

The universe will always be filled with life, far greater then we can ever imagine.

Personaly I would love to see the world unite without the problems of religions or wealth.
It would be the biggest move forward since !!!!!! I dont know when, ever I guess then.

I would love to see us flying through space, but I think we would end up trying to police it, or influencing other life forms for our own gain.

We are just too greedy as a race, an only seek wealth and control.

We would make a glorious mess of space :)
I recon it would be us that would need policing.
ha ha ha ha
that would be ironic

[miracles]

[quote=penguin;1017118]ha ha ha
spot on, I was waiting for this :)

.

So please enlighten me then, with the prove. (please keep it real)

1.Creation is proof or a creator -

2.The bible

3. Personal experience.

The end!

This post was brought to you by the letter T for truth and the number 7 because its God signature throughout on all of creation and funily enough right throughout the word of God.

My dear Pondus, anyone who says this....

You have to prove he/she/it does exsist to prove that something doesnt exsist


...is not all there!

[penguin]

[QUOTE]

1.Creation is proof or a creator -

2.The bible

3. Personal experience.

The end!

This post was brought to you by the letter T for truth and the number 7 because its God signature throughout on all of creation and funily enough right throughout the word of God.

My dear Pondus, anyone who says this....

...is not all there!

Anyone who believes that the world and universe was created by magic is not all there.

Is that what you tell your children!
"and he waved his mighty hand, the magic flew out of his fingures and the great gas of bull flew out of his arse. then low and behold he farted out religion, and created the universe."

I mean really! magic!, thats how you was created. !
thats your evidance.

My evidence is that we are always finding new species of life everywhere.
New sea creatures are been found in dark depths of the sea.
New examples of how bacteria and life can survive in extream conditions is been disovered.

Evolution and the cycle of life from bacetria to bull talking self proclaimed self absorbed ignorant monkies, is how we are here.

magic indeed.
ha ha ha
next you will tell me you believe in santa and the tooth fairy.

[element]

Anyone who believes that the world and universe was created by magic is not all there.
Define ''magic''...
My evidence is that we are always finding new species of life everywhere.
New sea creatures are been found in dark depths of the sea.
New examples of how bacteria and life can survive in extream conditions is been disovered.
So..?
Evolution and the cycle of life from bacetria to bull talking self proclaimed self absorbed ignorant monkies, is how we are here.
Evolution is hypothesis, not fact.

[miracles]

[quote=miracles;1017304]

Anyone who believes that the world and universe was created by magic is not all there.

Is that what you tell your children!
"and he waved his mighty hand, the magic flew out of his fingures and the great gas of bull flew out of his arse. then low and behold he farted out religion, and created the universe."

I mean really! magic!, thats how you was created. !
thats your evidance.

My evidence is that we are always finding new species of life everywhere.
New sea creatures are been found in dark depths of the sea.
New examples of how bacteria and life can survive in extream conditions is been disovered.

Evolution and the cycle of life from bacetria to bull talking self proclaimed self absorbed ignorant monkies, is how we are here.

magic indeed.
ha ha ha
next you will tell me you believe in santa and the tooth fairy.

Muaaahaaaa aaa ha. Spot on I was waiting for this - whilst hoping for better. :D

[penguin]

you dont believe in evolution ?

I.....

I give up!
Good luck to you.
Enjoy your life of lies.


Ha ha ha you dont believe in evolution.
religous nutters

[element]

you dont believe in evolution ?
I believe there is some evolution at work.
I'm not preaching a hypothesis as if it were fact!
Enjoy your life of lies.
What lies?
Ha ha ha you dont believe in evolution.
religous nutters
They still haven't demonstrated it in the lab that it is fact...

Define ''religion'' while you're at it =)

[penguin]

you crazy nut case.

The reason we have eight fingures and two thumbs, all of which are changing shapes, lenth and position over the generations and generations of life. Is down to evolution.

People are growing in height through evolution, changing shape. Everything since the gaveman has slowly changed to adapt to the way we live now.

Define religion...
I guess that if you cant define religion through the context of my posts then I can only assume that all of this is just a piss take.

I mean no one can be that nieve in this day and age to discredit evolution and the science of life.

So I will just take it, that all you are doing is just taking the piss and having a good laugh at my expence.

[element]

Define religion...
I guess that if you cant define religion through the context of my posts then I can only assume that all of this is just a piss take.
It isn't.
You are constantly babbling about religion, but as I said they are not all the SAME.
Buddhism is a religion too, yet very different then Islam.

Your naïve for falling prey to scientism. Go look that up, because you obviously haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

[penguin]

It isn't.
You are constantly babbling about religion, but as I said they are not all the SAME.
Buddhism is a religion too, yet very different then Islam.

Your naïve for falling prey to scientism. Go look that up, because you obviously haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

True! I havnt got a clue what I am talking about when it comes to religion.
Another truth, I dont really want to.

There are that many different types and too many different gods that it all gets conffusing. It becomes a destraction and conflicts with science in too many ways.

I believe this is the whole point of it all, we are saturated with that many different types, humans are drownding in it.

To reverse my question that I asked you...
If another life form came down and said they could save us if we only believe in god.
I am sorry I would stick to my morals, I would either find a way to save myself or die with science around me.
But this is just me, I am sure many scientist or atheists would turn and believe for the sake of their own lives.

:)

No hard feelings!

Enjoy life, if any god wanted me to believe in him, he would make it so, but he hasnt so I wont.
:)

[deadskinball]

They still haven't demonstrated it in the lab that it is fact...

hehehehehhe

I always knew you just can't face it the fact and you need your security blanket.

Tsk tsk.


You can scream hypothesis until your blue in the face. You can wish upon a star that quantum mechanics and alternate universes have something to do with evolution being proved in the lab, but the situation is clear:

Evolution has been observed within the lab under controlled conditions.

Now go hug your crystals.

[element]

hehehehehhe

I always knew you just can't face it the fact and you need your security blanket.

Tsk tsk.


You can scream hypothesis until your blue in the face. You can wish upon a star that quantum mechanics and alternate universes have something to do with evolution being proved in the lab, but the situation is clear:

Evolution has been observed within the lab under controlled conditions.

Now go hug your crystals.
Again the pretentious attitude and focusing on the person, instead of their points they make.

Is it so hard for you to understand we were talking about evolution..?

Changing the subject to your God, crystals, stars etc. is not going to take your responsibility away for providing proof.

The only reason you are here is to look for fights, it's what you've done in almost every post you've made here. (172 total)

[twistedconcept]

Again the pretentious attitude and focusing on the person, instead of their points they make.

Is it so hard for you to understand we were talking about evolution..?

Changing the subject to your God, crystals, stars etc. is not going to take your responsibility away for providing proof.

The only reason you are here is to look for fights, it's what you've done in almost every post you've made here. (172 total)

Man is too arrogant to accept that another force may have created him. They can't even think of the possibility. They really think they can fathom the intricacy of the world. Instead of saying they don't know, they'll become aggressive and spout their theory as fact, insulting you in the process.

[fallensoul]

I don't understand why all the arguing. As far as I know after studying both sciences, and religions (alot of them). I have come to the conclusion that it's impossible to know anything to be a fact.

Even when you yourself experience something you might still understand it plain wrong because of your beliefs and assumptions. You give the meaning to an event so how could the event prove anything beyond doubt.

I once was in a psychotic state from drug abuse, sleep deprivation and depression, and I believed all sorts of things and I found "evidence" from the everyday life. But when I look back I was really not thinking straight at all and was believing in my own delusions. Tho it felt as real as the "normal" life.

After recovering from the psychosis I had witnessed personally how our beliefs and subconscious mind can alter the whole reality we experience. What we are discussing here are concepts created by minds in different times with different belief systems and completely different society's. And now we try to find meaning to them imposing our pre-existing beliefs and indoctrinations to them. How do we know that we understand the bible for example in the same way the people in the past did, or how can we know that we can derive samekind of meaning as they did. Heck with all the translations and editings I would really feel uncertain if I tried to build my faith upon those texts.

I don't see how we can ever come to conclusion if we don't acknowledge that majority of all information and all facts are subjective. I do not believe in anything except those things that I can personally witness to be true. But I do assume that things like space flights are possible and real even tho I never witnessed one. I just do not want to believe blindly in anything because things might not be what they seem.

Bottom line, I see it useless to be in all these "camps" some are in religious camps some are in atheist camps and in the end both of them cannot provide any substantial proof to make any change. Maybe get into deeper understanding of their own beliefs. But not really make any agreements ;D it's just an all out flame war.

[geezer661]

Sure you would. That's what atheists spend their lives doing.

what a moron here we go again the good old christian mantra that you can only be good if your a christian. Its absolute bollocks. They also come up with the nonsense about how all dictators are athiests WRONG AGAIN!!

A little quote from hitler "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

and also the vatican has killed alot more people over the centuries than dictators put together. FACT!

Also most wars are created by religion so go back to your book of fairy tales and keep talkin to your imaginary friend every sunday. Good boy.

and and dont forget. You and all your friends fill that collection plate

[geezer661]

Partly true. Speculation and experience.
As Phildee once said, ''man tapped in the divine and after, it wrote down what it saw''

How can you be sure of ''facts''? Evolution for example is still not proven.

I'm not a Christian.
You keep making things up.

Not surprising, since the first post you go on about your dualism.

evolution is more or less proven. There is so much evidence. Go and watch documentries on the subject. Oh yes I forgot christians wont because it will make them question their beliefs and bring back their fear of the unknown.

Einsteins theory of relativity has been proven with the atomic clock test but it is still called a theory

They are called theories because discoveries later are added to the knowledge.

[geezer661]

Actually I can prove to you that God/creator does exist - you can not prove that he/she/it doesnt exist. Using futile metaphors will not win arguement by the way. Like if a UFO landed in your back garden and an alien came out and handed you a chicklet would you believe? Keep it real.

Its not up to me to provide the evidence of the existence. Your the one making the claim so your the one who has to provide it. And by the way you cannot prove the existence I havent seen you on the news lately. Oh yea you must still be filling up that collection plate for yr peedo priest. BAAAAA BAAAAAAAA

[element]

Man is too arrogant to accept that another force may have created him. They can't even think of the possibility. They really think they can fathom the intricacy of the world. Instead of saying they don't know, they'll become aggressive and spout their theory as fact, insulting you in the process.
Well, I don't get it what crystals, stars and Gods have to do with it. Although I have my doubts, that doesn't mean I'm immune to the possibility of evolution. But being sceptical about it is not tolerated, I'm of course just a bible dude or a crystal hugger..:D

Geezer661. I've checked many documentaries, books etc. Micro evolution is proven, macro is a lot of guessing and speculation. That doesn't mean I say it isn't real, but it isn't proven either.

I don't really mind whether it's real or not, but I don't like all the pointless battles of 'opposites'. The elite love it when people play their theist-atheist, evolutionist-creationist games. It keeps the boxes alive, they don't even need guards to guard it, we're already keeping them closed. And no, I'm not a Christian.

Fact: I know atheists who don't believe in evolution. Outrageous! Isn't it? :)

What I have also come to realise, is that those who's beliefs are challenged become angry and nasty. If someone knows the truth, there is no reason to become like that. The great figures in history prove this.

(This is getting quite off-topic as well, no point to continue)

[penguin]

I didnt want any of this to turn into an arguement, all I was interested in was..
what people thought about the age of the universe and how they thought their god/religion fitted in with it.

I didnt mean for it to go off the rails or insult anyone, I am sorry it ended up like that. (I am sorry if I upset anyone or offended them)

My only and last thought on this is....

I see life evolving around us every day, from mountains growing to insects sprouting.
I see the trees growing and plants blooming, I understand the weather cycles and changes of the seasons. I belive these because I can see them happening.

With religion or Gods, it is something that has to be told to you, you have to be told to blindly believe in something you cannot see or is invisible.
You are taught it is a power far greater then everything, but it is something that no one has seen, it is all hersay handed down through the years.

Nature and evolution doesnt have to advertise the fact that they are here and alive.
Religion is advertised everywhere.

(This comment is not directed to anybody or is no way ment to offend anyone.)
like I said before..
Enjoy life, if any god wanted me to believe in him, he would make it so, but he hasnt so I wont.


I believe what I see :)

[epic fail guy]

The universe is infinite. There was no beginning nor will there be an end. All that exists is the present moment.

[tracker]

Well I have thought

does the universe seem to age just because I do age ?

as we know , time is only a concept that in the end is referenced to earths movement in space .

In space there is no time , only movement .

where is it now ?

over there ?

round there ?

and if all the stars I see are millions of light years away ( light being a reference of a concept of partical waveform moving ) they wouldnt really be where I see them

so where are they now if they are not there ?

and ????????????????????

where the f++k am I then ?

:confused:

And if I am not all here , then surely ----------I am not all there ?

:eek:

[miracles]

Its not up to me to provide the evidence of the existence. Your the one making the claim so your the one who has to provide it. And by the way you cannot prove the existence I havent seen you on the news lately. Oh yea you must still be filling up that collection plate for yr peedo priest. BAAAAA BAAAAAAAA

Um what claim am I making?

Catholic Paedophile "Priests" are not Christians by the way, more like demons. Not that, that has anything to do with the topic of the thread.

Oh yeah DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[deadskinball]

Man is too arrogant to accept that another force may have created him.

Typical.

You give me your damn proof. I will then be one big step closer to accepting this 'force' you speak of as long as it hold correct to scientific principal.

Once again (from previous thread), am i arrogant for asking of evidence of your force, or do you expect me to just buy your version of events without question.

yep, without question.... because religious people from ALL types do not question their particular scenario they follow. Christian (since I'm exposed to them very frequently, so i'll attack them) are the worst for blindly following the blind.

You call me arrogant for knowing, yet I think you are bloody pathetic for sucking up the crap you have been fed.

Are you pathetic?

[deadskinball]

If someone knows the truth, there is no reason to become like that.

I'll give an example of how I see things:

2 + 2 = 4.

That is correct and obvious.

...but that is not enough for some people.

Those 'some people' are the idiots I have to be careful of because it can wreck my livelihood (you know why, many others won't). Everywhere you'll go you will get someone who is lowly educated and more often that not, religious as well.
There is a direct relation between how smart a person is and how much they value dogma. Its a trend i have seen and I know its is the case. Unfortunately extremely stupid are on the same level of law when it comes to voting and government. If religion was eradicated like the cancer upon humanity it is, then the world would be a much better place.

Cue Now: religious fanatics defending their brainwashing and indoctrination.

---

If anyone think this post is off-topic then think of the reason why there is doubt of the age of the universe. Its those same un-smart people who think their version is correct 9and have loud mouths to yell it out). Its just proof that stupid people are really really fucking stupid.

Considering the error margins involved, the universe is about 17.5 billions years old, give or take 2.5 billion years.

[thetonic]

[QUOTE]What a ridiculous thing to regect!

This is where you should have really stopped...


Science has built the world around you, given you the computer, powered your house. Built your supermarkets and mass production, fed you and clothed you. Healed you when you are ill.


And before this miraculous science appeared on the scene people were just miserable right? Or was it science that birthed the human consciousness and all the cosmos?

No when all those things you claim were birthed from science are stripped away and long gone, you will still have the human spirit and consciousness standing quietly and waiting for the next vain attempt to unravel its foundations in infinity.

Science has enabled the world to travel and learn new wonders and marvel at everything, all this at the touch of a button.

Its becoming apparent that this sort of conveniece is more of a bane than a blessing really. People simply cant fend for the themselves anymore, they need big government to provide for them and spoon feed all the answers to life difficult questions via outlets such as media / science / organized religion


element
I am fine to find a balance, as Science is all about finding ways forward.

Science is currently going backward in every attempt to discredit the possiblity of God or a creation force...

Was it sprituality/ religioun that gave us machine guns, nuclear bombs, tanks and white phosphorous ? Or was it beautiful science? What kind of weapons did Christ speak about?

"He who live by the sword shall surely die by the sword"

[element]

yep, without question.... because religious people from ALL types do not question their particular scenario they follow.

Another generalization. Is this how you make your arguments?

Are you pathetic?
He said ''may''.., and you already make all sort of assumptions.

Instead of providing proof for your macro evolution hypothesis, you result to cheap run away tactics ''I can't prove my hypothesis, now I change the subject''

People have their right to be sceptical about evolution. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

I know that's hard to accept..but you gotta live with it mate.

[twistedconcept]

Typical.

You give me your damn proof. I will then be one big step closer to accepting this 'force' you speak of as long as it hold correct to scientific principal.

Once again (from previous thread), am i arrogant for asking of evidence of your force, or do you expect me to just buy your version of events without question.

yep, without question.... because religious people from ALL types do not question their particular scenario they follow. Christian (since I'm exposed to them very frequently, so i'll attack them) are the worst for blindly following the blind.

You call me arrogant for knowing, yet I think you are bloody pathetic for sucking up the crap you have been fed.

Are you pathetic?

You've obviously not bothered to read my post and resort to insults when your belief is attacked.

I don't follow any religion. If you'd have bothered to read my post, you'd know that. I stated that I believe (key word) there's a force involved. I'm not arrogant enough to pretend I understand it. You have your belief. Attacking others won't convince them to follow your belief. Get over it.

Are you a child?

[penguin]

ha ha ha ha

what ever!

You know if god is real then why are we not born with this knowledge ?
Why is it that we have to be preached at, to know about it all.

You would think if he wanted everyone to know of him, then we would be born knowing.
There wouldnt even be this arguement, because we would all know.

We dont though do we, we end up having religion preached at us untill we are brainwashed.


"Swing" Pop!
Balls in your court

"Lets play then, if you wanna continue this, then lets keep insults clean and we do it politely"

Please tell me ( I ask politely)

What makes the bible so right, how can a book writen years ago and has been changed that many times, be right. ?

Man did write the book with his own hands and in his own interpretation, I am just wanting to know, what makes it right, if man made it ?

[thetonic]

[QUOTE]ha ha ha ha

what ever!

You know if god is real then why are we not born with this knowledge ?
Why is it that we have to be preached at, to know about it all.

The 'knowledge' of god is with you from birth... Its what is known as 'spirit' and it is equated with love and truth... A child that has not been indoctrinated by the system has a very strong spirit and closer to god like conscious than we seem to be able to recognize...

If you are successful in dismantling your programming and shedding your ego then you will see this with clarity. This is how you can enter heaven as a child.


You would think if he wanted everyone to know of him, then we would be born knowing.
There wouldnt even be this arguement, because we would all know.

God is not a him, her, entity this or that... It is within you and with out you. You are a part of it and it is a part of you and your existence

We dont though do we, we end up having religion preached at us untill we are brainwashed.


Do not confuse knowledge of self/creation/love/god with organized religion.. You cannot connect to the creator/god via organized religion. Sorry you just cant, infact the organized religions have all been infiltrated by Luciferian cabbalists and one of their prime tenants is to tear you away from knowledge of self/creation/love/god... Thats their prime goal !!!

"Swing" Pop!
Balls in your court

"Lets play then, if you wanna continue this, then lets keep insults clean and we do it politely"

Please tell me ( I ask politely)

What makes the bible so right, how can a book writen years ago and has been changed that many times, be right. ?

Man did write the book with his own hands and in his own interpretation, I am just wanting to know, what makes it right, if man made it ?

Again , do not equate the bible and all its contradictions, hypocrisy, and conundrums with the existence of god... The two are so far from eachother and completely incompatible with the background and knowledge we are allowed to see today.

[penguin]

Interesting post thetonic,

The 'knowledge' of god is with you from birth... Its what is known as 'spirit' and it is equated with love and truth... A child that has not been indoctrinated by the system has a very strong spirit and closer to god like conscious than we seem to be able to recognize...


This I am sorry to say, is only found out when it is told to you, you do not know anything about spirits, souls or religion, untill religion/god is preached to you.

A child is born and over the years he see's the world around him grow, he see's life evovling before his eyes. he believes this as he can see it.
The child learns how to grow food and stay alive because he can see the changing in the seasons.

Then along comes religion and their stories of god and preaches to you about your spirit and soul, sending the fear of god into the child.
He is told it is blasphemous to disagree and will be braned a heretic.
He will be banished to an eternity of hell.
But....
You can make a donation and god might fogive you :rolleyes:

A child has no knowledge of god or religion untill you tell the child.
just like....

Santa Clause
Jack Frost
Toothfairy
Boogyman
Witches

I am sorry, but I was not born with this knowledge it was shuved in my face.

I mean religions cant even agree on what sex god is.....
is it he, she or neither or both ?????

[jake49]

This is a question to all you religious people. As it is something that interest me about how you imply that god made us and everything.


The guestimate is that our universe is 20 billion years old, our own planet has had human life on it for at least 10 - 30 thousand years.

BUT....
acording to the religious ones, god made life 2-5000 years or so ago !!!!!

I ask you, why did god wait 20 billion years before he thought

"ah!, I know, I will make man an I will play all sorts of mind games with him"

And...

How can religious people believe that there is an invisable force that believes in magic to create life.....

but yet dismiss life from another planet ?
And dismiss science and evolution ?
None of which are magic or an illusion.

Read through your book of biblical bull, and read all the parts of which god performed his magic, his so called miracles, an ask yourself...

"why the fuck, would he do all the things that he did, to this planet, then create other planets with life on (to trick us or test us)" (isnt that an abuse of power for his own entertainment!)

BUT.....

out of interest!!! if you disagree with me on the fact that god didnt create life, I ask you how old do you think our universe is ?????

P.S.
I dont want to read, quotes from your bible of what one man claims a higher forced told him.

I want your thoughts.

If you totaly disagree with me....

Then forgive me and I will forgive you for your ignorance to science.

"Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Oh sorry... no biblical references.. forgot we need to avoid all that biblical bull... ? hahahah... ok...

Well, how about Albert Einstein?

We are in the situation of a child which enters a huge library, full of books written in many different languages. The child knows that someone must have written these books, but doesn't know how. And it doesn't know the languages the books are written in. The child suspects being a mysterious order in the disposition of the books, but doesn't know which. This seems to me the human position, even of the most intelligent ones...

Does the universe have a temporal age? what is time?
is this question not within the limitations of illusive understanding?

are you as ignorant as me and all the religious people you point at?

My thoughts are that if you want to discuss the wonder and mystery in this subject and an honest look at the limitations of our ability to comprehend the fullness of such things... I'm interested.

But you seem more interested in some method of confronting religiosity?
Not effectively either heheh :)... So I'll just add these thoughts for now.

this isn't just to you, but my thoughts me and all the religious people... us all...

I want your thoughts.

That we're not as smart as we think we are, when discussing things like this. Looking at how big and mysterious and beautiful the universe is... I'd say all the different things we hold up and declare encapsulates 'this' or 'that' about the universe... is pretty much all paradigms and structures of thought which exist within a tiny little box... the size of a grain of sand amongst those few extra bits of sand which are in the universe.

So... to pick the sense of the nonsense...
A place of honesty and humility we can come from is of love?
And then from that discuss 'How old is the universe'?...

anyway... if I'm not making sense now... that's either because I'm actually not making any sense hahah.. but I will some day.... or that you don't understand something which does make sense... which you will one day...
either way... we're the same hahah...

[element]

Interesting post thetonic,



This I am sorry to say, is only found out when it is told to you, you do not know anything about spirits, souls or religion, untill religion/god is preached to you.

You're quite wrong. Some children see spirits, others don't. Some remember their out of body experiences, other don't.
Not everyone is the same, and society programming can make you unaware of these things, disregard it, ridicule it.

The only thing religions do, is give the beastie a name. Making concepts about it.

Thetonic is one of the few here who understands the agenda.

If you want to understand what Thetonic is telling, you need to be practical. You won't find it with the tools you think you can, or with concepts, speculations, and cheap philosophy. It's all up to you.

[tracker]

when god breithed life into us it shows we now have god force within us .

I am the great I AM , and so are you man .

these famouse words from the bible mean GOD IS -----------MAN IS .

we are
you are
god is

we are all parts of god force .

now thats that !:cool:

[penguin]

both interesting responces.

Maybe the child glows with life because he has not been washed with religion and god, then when he is, he is blinded.

I know tools cannot prove god does not exsist and I know the churches of this planet cannot prove god exsist.

I am by no way, wanting any of my posts to change anyone or am I trying to tell you your churches and religions are totally wrong, as it is what keeps you happy and under control, it stops you from "sinning".

My whole experiment with this, is to see the responce from different religions.
To record the reactions to certain questions.
To prove that we as humans are in no way ready to acept other life forms or new religions from other worlds.

We cant even acept each other, so what makes everyone think that we could acept life from out of space.

I agree with you that we, us, everyone on the planet is blind and ignorant.

I believe in other life forms from space more then I believe any bible, god or spiritual ascention.

the only ascention I want to do is away from this planet, because god or religion doesnt fit into my world it isnt big enough.

;)
"Beam me up Scotty!"

An if you imply that I am crazy, then wheyhay! I would rather be classed as crazy then believe in something that isnt there.





(Sorry if I offend, it is ment only in light conversation, if im wrong then forgive me) :)

[deadskinball]

You have your belief.

A belief?

Like in faith based beliefs?

No, not me.

I stop believing in Santa, Easter Bunny, Jesus, Tooth Fairy, Gods, Boogey Man, Deities when I realised that there are many stupid people in this world. Education in the sciences is what finally removed the blinders at around 14 years of age for me at in ol' 88.

[deadskinball]

yep, without question.... because religious people from ALL types do not question their particular scenario they follow.

Another generalization. Is this how you make your arguments?

What do you think religion is?

Is an organised set of beliefs based upon faith in a deity.

A deity can be anything from a living person held in high regard (cough) for there supernatural powers, or it could be a 2000 year old zombie which wants you to eat his flesh to remove a curse he put on you. :yawn: etc. etc.

Its a generalisation which is correct.

If someone questioned their belief in such a deitiy then they would see (hopefully if they are smart enough) that superstition and supernaturalism are basically the same thing. Unfortunately many people are stupid.

...ie: religion in any form would be extinct.


but I hear you say it ain't (superstition and supernaturalism) ?

Well if you think that way, hallucinations from drugs would mean that its actually real. A mental patient undergoing hallucinations would mean that its real. You know, dreams are NOT real and extremely stressful situations (NDE) typically have many strong hormones and hospital drugs involved into the chemical mix.

[deadskinball]

The 'knowledge' of god is with you from birth... Its what is known as 'spirit' and it is equated with love and truth... A child that has not been indoctrinated by the system has a very strong spirit and closer to god like conscious than we seem to be able to recognize...

If you are successful in dismantling your programming and shedding your ego then you will see this with clarity. This is how you can enter heaven as a child.

Quick someone put their fingers in my nose when I'm typing this. I don't want my brain to turn to mush from reading this quote and dribble out.

[element]

What do you think religion is?

Is an organised set of beliefs based upon faith in a deity.
Fool.
Not all religions believe in a deity.

Well if you think that way, hallucinations from drugs would mean that its actually real. A mental patient undergoing hallucinations would mean that its real. You know, dreams are NOT real and extremely stressful situations (NDE) typically have many strong hormones and hospital drugs involved into the chemical mix.
More of the pretentious attitude.
I never used drugs mate.

NDE's, you only see them as the hospital stories, and you describe what happens in the body. You don't know what's behind it, because you have zero experience.

Why not try it out, without drugs. Will it shatter your beliefs? If you try, you might know instead of believe. :)

[penguin]

Oldest pottery' found in China

Examples of pottery found in a cave at Yuchanyan in China's Hunan province may be the oldest known to science.

By determining the fraction of a type, or isotope, of carbon in bone fragments and charcoal, the specimens were found to be 17,500 to 18,300 years old.

The authors say that the ages are more precise than previous efforts because a series of more than 40 radiocarbon-dated samples support the estimate.

The work is reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The Yuchanyan cave was the site where the oldest kernels of rice were found in 2005, and it is viewed as an important link between cave-dwelling hunter-gatherer peoples and the farmers that arose later in the basin of the nearby Yangtze River.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8077168.stm

oh! now thats old!

[twistedconcept]

A belief?

Like in faith based beliefs?

No, not me.

I stop believing in Santa, Easter Bunny, Jesus, Tooth Fairy, Gods, Boogey Man, Deities when I realised that there are many stupid people in this world. Education in the sciences is what finally removed the blinders at around 14 years of age for me at in ol' 88.

You believe in evolution. Evolution has its gods - human gods (Darwin, Wallace, Dawkins, etc). These people are treated as gods.

There are many scientists that believe in something more.

[deadskinball]

You believe in evolution.

Its not a belief if it is real. It then becomes fact. Believing in something means it a subjective opinion taken as fact according to the believer. A fact does not need opinion or subjectivity. You cannot change a fact no matter how much you think it is wrong or no matter how much you want it to be false.

Evolution is what I deal with on a day to day basis between 8:30am to 6pm (except weekends :p ).

[deadskinball]

Fool. Not all religions believe in a deity.

Can you give some religions which do not hold something/someone as an important thing/person?

I'm pretty sure you know more than me in that regards since, to me, one religion... ten religions.. all religions are the same shit.

"Believe in something supernatural (a being or a notion)"



I never used drugs mate.

No saying you have. Its not you presonally I'm talking about, but the general idea of hallucinations seeming so real and true to those that experience them that they may fool the person.



Will it shatter your beliefs?

I'm glad you have a question mark there. I have no beliefs which pertain to a deity of any sort (or if you'll humour my example just above) or any religion.

[thetonic]

Quick someone put their fingers in my nose when I'm typing this. I don't want my brain to turn to mush from reading this quote and dribble out.

im afraid its too late in your case;)

[deadskinball]

im afraid its too late in your case;)

yep. Sure is.

I will never ever delude myself about what damage religion does to humanity. Years ago i thought religion to be real and true and all that... but then i got an education. :D

[twistedconcept]

Its not a belief if it is real. It then becomes fact. Believing in something means it a subjective opinion taken as fact according to the believer. A fact does not need opinion or subjectivity. You cannot change a fact no matter how much you think it is wrong or no matter how much you want it to be false.

Evolution is what I deal with on a day to day basis between 8:30am to 6pm (except weekends :p ).

Real to you maybe.

[thetonic]

yep. Sure is.


never say never mang... thats a trap

sometimes the spirit just shows up in you! :)

[anahata]

Why does Christianity say that god rested on the seventh day (interpreted as Sunday) yet Sunday is the first day of the week?! surely that would mean he rested on the first day, passed out and imagined he had created the next 6?! :confused:

[darryl84]

Why does Christianity say that god rested on the seventh day (interpreted as Sunday) yet Sunday is the first day of the week?! surely that would mean he rested on the first day, passed out and imagined he had created the next 6?! :confused:

I think god took some hullicinogens on the first day, and we're all part of his wild imagination! :P :D

[tejas]

What do you think religion is?

Is an organised set of beliefs based upon faith in a deity.

A deity can be anything from a living person held in high regard (cough) for there supernatural powers, or it could be a 2000 year old zombie which wants you to eat his flesh to remove a curse he put on you. :yawn: etc. etc.

Its a generalisation which is correct.

If someone questioned their belief in such a deitiy then they would see (hopefully if they are smart enough) that superstition and supernaturalism are basically the same thing. Unfortunately many people are stupid.

...ie: religion in any form would be extinct.


but I hear you say it ain't (superstition and supernaturalism) ?

Well if you think that way, hallucinations from drugs would mean that its actually real. A mental patient undergoing hallucinations would mean that its real. You know, dreams are NOT real and extremely stressful situations (NDE) typically have many strong hormones and hospital drugs involved into the chemical mix.

What you said about NDEs is completely bogus. There are NO hospital drugs involved.

[tejas]

I think god took some hullicinogens on the first day, and we're all part of his wild imagination! :P :D

I agree D:

[deadskinball]

What you said about NDEs is completely bogus. There are NO hospital drugs involved.

may.

Is it better if i stick the word "may" in there?

Typically people dying are on some serious chemicals at the time they are getting their heart restarted. If the pump stops, you ain't got a big chance - unless its hollywood! You'll have a better chance if you get pumped full of some nice chemicals first, however.

Ever had someone choke you out?

Yes? Then you'll be able to see that you can implement dreamstates also immediately and sometimes feel like you ar in control.

...but I suggest you DO NOT DO THIS since you are effectively cutting blood supply to the brain.

The brain does some funny stuff when its low on certain things it needs for normal operation.

[deadskinball]

Since this is seriously off topic:

You hear the case where a lady was dying and the heart stopped. She claimed that when she was resussed, she heard the doctors yelling out instructions and that she was floating near the cieling watching down on herself.

well....

Its obvious that she heard the doctors barking out orders since she is effectively in a semi-trance state and could hear them. It is the same sort of thing when you hear things (from real life) and incorporate them into your dream... or a session of choke-out dreamstates.

What about the floating sensation?

The brain is whacko when its deprived of oxygen. You can feel dizzy when you get up from the floor and stand up. Now since the blood pressure decreased momentarily to the brain, you'll quickly come out of the dizzy state because your body will react. That woman which got herslef famous for her so called OoBE, had a 'very bad' case of low blood supply to her brain (like when your dying and your heart stops :rolleyes: ) and then claims she saw herslef above her bed and the doctors working on her...

Ha! just another dreamstate which she milked to death :D to make herself famous.

Only if the experiencer knew what makes the experience.

Pilots who go thru sustained Gs get the same dreamstate thing happening.

[element]

The brain is whacko when its deprived of oxygen. You can feel dizzy when you get up from the floor and stand up. Now since the blood pressure decreased momentarily to the brain, you'll quickly come out of the dizzy state because your body will react. That woman which got herslef famous for her so called OoBE, had a 'very bad' case of low blood supply to her brain (like when your dying and your heart stops :rolleyes: ) and then claims she saw herslef above her bed and the doctors working on her...

What you don't understand is that real full blown out of body projections are possible, and it isn't just in the mind, or a dream.
Some brain and body analysis does not mean there isn't the possibility of a real experience. You think matter is the only reality, and that's what you claim reality is, because you only use those tools. The only real proof is when you find it out yourself. No drugs, no dreaming, no hospital bed, no brain analysis, cheap sceptic magazines etc.

[miracles]

may.

Is it better if i stick the word "may" in there?

Typically people dying are on some serious chemicals at the time they are getting their heart restarted. If the pump stops, you ain't got a big chance - unless its hollywood! You'll have a better chance if you get pumped full of some nice chemicals first, however.

Ever had someone choke you out?

Yes? Then you'll be able to see that you can implement dreamstates also immediately and sometimes feel like you ar in control.

...but I suggest you DO NOT DO THIS since you are effectively cutting blood supply to the brain.

The brain does some funny stuff when its low on certain things it needs for normal operation.

No I've never had some one choke me out but I can understand why you "may" have, and I say "may"...:D In the instance that you "may" have had blood supply cut off to your brain, explains rather a lot.

Although it hasnt yet become evident, I do hope your getting better now.

[deadskinball]

In the instance that you "may" have had blood supply cut off to your brain, explains rather a lot.

Although it hasnt yet become evident, I do hope your getting better now.

hehehhe thankyou.

I actually had a good hearty laugh... and i needed one. Thanks again.

[miracles]

hehehhe thankyou.

I actually had a good hearty laugh... and i needed one. Thanks again.

Your welcome mate, I had a good hearty laugh writing it, glad you took it the spirit it was intended. :)

[anahata]

I think god took some hullicinogens on the first day, and we're all part of his wild imagination! :P :D

SUNday dreamland. So what's with all the other days then?

[darryl84]

SUNday dreamland. So what's with all the other days then?

There just made up, we have x amount of days in a week, x amount of days in a months, and x amount of months in a year. Heck, before the gregorian calendar there was 13 month cycles! :D lol

[anahata]

What relevance does age actually have? Is it the only thing we feel we can measure experience against? What should we really be measuring alongside? :)
As it's all relative, you can't pin point anything. Resonance removes the pinning of a point. And what the fuck is the point??!!?!!! :rolleyes: It's all a big fat oxymoron.

[rwederfoort]

Excerpt from Stimme der Wassermannzeit, No. 89 December 1993
Creation is the immeasurable mystery suspended in immeasurable expanse.

Creation is identical to 'Universal Consciousness', which guides and prevails in the BEING of consciousness; it is a double-helix, egg-shaped configuration that simultaneously constitutes the Universe in its growing expansion.

Its pulsating double-helix arms live as spiritual energy, while rotating against each other.
The Universe is Creation’s internal and external body.
Creation --- through its entirety pulsate the Universal 'Gemüt' (a nontranslatable German term for the spiritual counterpart to the psyche) and the Universal Consciousness, the power of life and existence in general.
Creation pervades everything and everything pervades Creation, thereforeforming oneness within itself.
Within this oneness occur all life and all of the evolution allotted to it.

Creation has the identical developmental and evolutionary process as every life form, --- however, its values of time are anchored in very high values indeed. Creation itself exists in a conscious creative state for seven Great-Times. --- Subsequently it lays dormant for an equal number of Great-Times, but this time they last seven times as long. Following this period, Creation is awake
to create once again for a period seven times as longer once again than the previous one.

(One Great-Time is equal to 311,040,000,000,000 terrestrial
years; seven Great-Times add up to 2,177,280,000,000,000 terrestrial years, also called an eternity; 7 x 7 Great-Times make one All-Great-Time.)
Creation is The Creation and there exists no Creation other than it within its own Universe.
Creation is the Creation of all creations such as the Universe, the galaxies, stars, earths (earth is equivalent to 'planets' in this context), skies, light and
darkness, time, space and all multitudes of life forms in existence, each according to its own species.
Creation is justice, love, strength, wisdom, knowledge, compassion, freedom, mercy, laws, directive, alliance, fulfillment, evolution, life, support, joy, beauty, peace, infallibility, equilibrium, spirit, forever, logic, growth,
perfection, contentment, inexhaustibility, omnipotence, sweetness, infinity, solidarity, perception, harkening, elevation, the Sohar, gentleness, lucidity, purity, transformation, origin, future, power, reverence, allness and BEING.

Creation is the BEING and non-BEING of life. It is the most immense mass of spiritual energy in the Universe.
Creation is spirit in its purest form and immeasurable in its wisdom, knowledge, love and harmony in truth.
Creation is a spiritually dynamic, pure-spirit energy that prevails over everything. Incomprehensible for human beings, it is an active, creative wisdom in the midst of its own incessant evolution; it is all-encompassing
for all times. Creation is verity, the all-embracing, solace, comprehensiveness, guidance,
equality, accuracy, cognition, empirical knowledge, admonition, discipline, recollection, revelation, praise, perfection, explanation and direction.
Creation is the path of life; it is nature, light, fire and contemplation; Creation is consciousness, and it is omnipresent.


Glory be to Creation.

Namaste

[stfd]

It's so interesting how this argument never stops.
There are always those who oppose this or the other; thing is they not only oppose it but fell they should get others to be like them...

Why can't those, who for example believe the 'universe' was made 10k years ago or whatever just chill , believe whatever they want to belive and leave the others who believe otherwise be ?!
Hmm maybe because they don't feel secure, maybe because they feel that by getting others to be like them conforts them...puzzling

Whether you wanna take the blue or red pill, is your own freakin choice, just dont try or even atempt to think of getting another to be like you.
Your choice - your own , ultimatelly all are 'judged' as individuals and NOT as a herd, so wake the hell up...

But then again isn't about that isn't it ?
Yea ... oh well, to each his own.

[miracles]

It's so interesting how this argument never stops.
There are always those who oppose this or the other; thing is they not only oppose it but fell they should get others to be like them...

Why can't those, who for example believe the 'universe' was made 10k years ago or whatever just chill , believe whatever they want to belive and leave the others who believe otherwise be ?!
Hmm maybe because they don't feel secure, maybe because they feel that by getting others to be like them conforts them...puzzling

Whether you wanna take the blue or red pill, is your own freakin choice, just dont try or even atempt to think of getting another to be like you.
Your choice - your own , ultimatelly all are 'judged' as individuals and NOT as a herd, so wake the hell up...



But then again isn't about that isn't it ?
Yea ... oh well, to each his own.

Because we'd have nothing to wax lyrical about? :D

[miracles]

What relevance does age actually have? Is it the only thing we feel we can measure experience against? What should we really be measuring alongside? :)
As it's all relative, you can't pin point anything. Resonance removes the pinning of a point. And what the fuck is the point??!!?!!! :rolleyes: It's all a big fat oxymoron.

Exactly! The age of the universe is an immotive pointless row.

[octopusrex]

This one? Huh.. Four months.

[zetetic0void]

how old is the universe ?


Firstly, any answer you get will be a relative thing (relative to our particular invented time-keeping and experience of what we call time). It's also relative to the current understanding and modelling of the Universe. As far as I'm concerned the mathematics of modelling the billionth second after the so-called Big Bang would need an extreme amount of decimal places of accuracy of the calculations would be way off ... in other words, the closer to that moment, the more mystery of reality shows and science cannot predict or model.

As usueful as science and reasoning is when figuring out parts of things to certain degrees of predictability, essentially, all of everything is still a complete mystery. Isn't that wonderful?!


Who knows, maybe there are isolated segments of the Universe (others might call these segments 'universes' in a Metaverse but I know the word "Uni" means one so I feel that word should be reserved for the theoretical entirity of all of observed and unobserved Reality) where the experience of time is so sped up that those segments of the Universe go through billions of years in what are a few seconds to us.

We humans have seen billions of light years distant but perhaps we are just seeing a tiny portion of all of Reality. For all I know, we are still like a person stranded on a little island in the ocean with binoculars who sees other little islands far away but who has no idea that around the curve past the horizon, huge continants exist with bustling cities!

He might think the whole world is a group of little islands on some water.

--------------
--------------

I remember this documentary showing a very large starfish (not a fish at all, but someone named them this) and a scene of other seemingly immobile creatures on the shallow ground of some coastal waters. To our sight, it appeared as a tranquil scene of creatures just lazing around but when time-lapse photography took frames every now and then and then replayed them sped up, it is shown that the giant starfish was trying to catch the smaller creatures and they were trying to move out of harms way.

I thought that was pretty amazing and showed precisely not only the relativeness of time but how points of view can be totally wrong by only seeing things at a certain time scale (ie, our usual reference of time totally missed and misinterpretted the scene).

--------

Similarly, you will often hear people refer to the speed of light as incredibly fast. However, I am totally truthful when I say the speed of light is incredibly slow! It is so bloody impatiently slow!

When I use my telescope to look at the Andromeda Galaxy (M31) which is around 2.5 million light years away (if my memory serves me well ) and maybe roughly 200000 light years in diameter, I can imagine light travelling from one end of that galaxy to it's other end. For me to imagine this in "real time", I would have to sit there and visualize this over a period of 200000 years! That's just for light to travel the diameter of that one galaxy which I can cover with my thumb at arms length (it's actually viible to the naked eye as a small fuzy patch under a dark sky).

If you zoom far out, the motion of light in the Universe appears like that scene of sea creatures in the water ... all apparently just sitting there lazing about ... immobile.

-----------


Personally I'm somewhat attracted to the concept of a cyclic Universe of eternal formation (one key thing to realize is that if the Universe is eternally cyclic, every incarnation of the Universe has already happened an infinite number of times LOL... talk about deja vue!), change, expiration and collapse (or at least localized sections that do this inside a more vast Universe).

It appears to me that there is a pattern within nature expressed at a variety of magnification levels and within seemingly different areas of reality. So like fractal images that you zoom into and see the same patterns reappearing , the segments within the vast Universe could be expanding, stagnating and contracting to again reform and "bloom" like a flower that blossomed and then dies but the material of which becomes part of a new formation in the future.

If our section of the vast Universe did begin from a so-called "Big Bang", perhaps this expansion could be like the "breathing in" of cosmological proportions. The eventual exhalation would be like the contraction of matter in the distant future.

- each breath
- each day and night
- each lifespan of certain flies (~ 30 days ?)
- each revolution of Earth around the Sun
- each human lifespan (~ 75 years?)
- each lifespan of some empire, nation, civilization
- each orbit of the solar system around the Milky Way's centre
- each expansion and contraction of a part of the Universe.

Like a series of countless russian dolls all within each other in endless layers.