Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?

[kasalt]

We all know that Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but few of us know or understand the reasons why. The purpose of this thread is not to cast doubt upon Christianity or Judaism, but rather to promote understanding and clarity regarding why the differences between the Christian and Jewish faiths regarding Jesus exist.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

Orthodox Rabbi Shraga Simmmons explains why Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

Source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

Question

Why did the majority of the Jewish world reject Jesus as the Messiah, and why did the first Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Answer

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David.!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!" (see also: John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus. Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

[stfd]

We all know that Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but few of us know or understand the reasons why.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

Orthodox Rabbi Shraga Simmmons explains why Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

Source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

Question

Why did the majority of the Jewish world reject Jesus as the Messiah, and why did the first Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Answer

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David.!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!" (see also: John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus. Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

So are you asking for opinions on this or are you asking that your opinion be accepted as fact ?

[element]

Very interesting post, Kasalt.

Some things were new for me, here's more about the 'virgin' part..http://www.outreachjudaism.org/alma.htm

[kasalt]

So are you asking for opinions on this or are you asking that your opinion be accepted as fact ?

It is not my opinion that I am presenting here. I am not Jewish. My purpose in posting this thread is to explain the Jewish view of Jesus.

[luciferhorus]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1360/613625474_045f89df10.jpg?v=0

Among the Jewish Youth, who are in general highly educated, literate and tend to be very active on the Internet, the Communists, Anarchists, Socialists and freethinkers who are generally humanist, New Age or Neo-Pagan vastly outnumber the tiny majority of Jewish religionists obsessed with the ramblings of their ancestors.

http://21stcenturysocialism.com/files/normal_DovKheninSpeaking.jpg

While Jesus is considered in general a Jewish anti-Capitalist, it is merely Christianity which the Jewish people generally despise; it is after all a religion based upon Judaism and a Jewish prophet which has been responsible for centuries of anti-Judaism, and their numerous wars, inquisitions, crusades, holocausts and religious hypocrisy in general.

http://www.socialistunity.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dov-khenin-anti-war-protest.jpg
______________


Jesus: The Last Communist

June 26, 2007 by Bruno Somerset


Since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Soviet Union nearly two decades ago, it has been widely assumed that communism is dead. With North Korea in shambles, the Castro era ending in Cuba, and the move to a free market in China, this does appear true. In fact, most attempts at instituting the ideals of communism have failed, mainly because they were instituted by megalomaniacal despots.

However, there is one model of pure communism that has over a billion followers, although most don't practice it the way their founder taught them to. That model is Christianity. Forget Marx and Lenin and Mao; if you want an example of a true Communist leader, Jesus is your man.

Sure, it sounds crazy, and maybe even a little blasphemous to some, but before you judge, consider Webster's definition of communism: "a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed." Now let's look at the guide all Christians use as the basis of their belief, and that some consider infallible: the Bible.

The second and fourth chapters of the Book of Acts give a clear example, too seldom followed in Christian churches today, of what most would consider communism:

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts." (Acts 2:44-46 NIV)

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need." (Acts 4:32-35 NIV)

The Gospels are filled with teachings by Jesus or his followers that encourage, and even demand, a social and economic equality foreign to us today:

"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." (Luke 14:13 NIV)

[kasalt]

Further understanding of why the Jews in general do not accept Jesus as Messiah comes from the "Jews & Hasidic Gentiles" website: http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htmThe following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":

Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel's strict adherence to kashrus, in Daniel chapter 1.]
He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).
He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).
He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man's arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d's view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]
Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).

The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d:

"G-d is not a man, who can lie, nor the son of man, who relents... He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen perverseness in Israel" (Numbers 23:19).
Speaking prophetically of the Christian church, Moses declared, "For their 'rock' is not like our Rock... Where is their god, in whom they trusted?" (Deut. 32:31, 37).
"'See now that I, only I, am He, and there is no god with Me. I kill, and I bring to life; I wound, and I heal, and there is none who can rescue from My Hand...' Sing songs of joy, gentiles, with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will take vengeance on His enemies, and will forgive His land and His people" (Deut. 32:39, 43).
"I, only I am Hashem (the L-rd), and besides Me there is no savior" (Isaiah 43:11).
"I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god... Is there a god besides Me? There is no rock; I do not know any" (Isaiah 44:6).
"Israel is saved in Hashem with an eternal salvation... Assemble yourselves and come, come near together, you gentiles who have escaped [the judgment]. (They have no knowledge, those who carry wooden sculptures and who pray to a god that does not save.) Announce and bring near, even take counsel together: Who declared this from ancient times, and announced it from then? Is it not I, Hashem? And there are no other gods beside Me, nor any righteous and saving god other than Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all ends of the earth, for I am G-d and there is none else. By Myself I swore, a righteous word went out of my mouth and it will not be withdrawn, that to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear" (Isaiah 45:17, 20-23).

This next quote comes from Wikipedia's article, Judaism's View of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_view_of_Jesus#Judaism.27s_view_of_the_Messi ah):According to the Torah (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Deuteronomy&verse=13:1-5&src=HE) and 18:18-22 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Deuteronomy&verse=18:18-22&src=HE)), the criteria for a person to be considered a prophet or speak for God in Judaism are that they must follow the God of Israel (and no other God), they must not describe God differently than he is known to be from Scripture, they must not advocate change to God's word or state that God has changed his mind and wishes things that contradict his already-stated eternal word, and the things they do speak of must come to pass.

Additionally, there are two types of "false prophet" recognized in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh): the one who claims to be a prophet in the name of idolatry, and the one who claims to be a prophet in the name of the God of Israel, but declares that any word or commandment (mitzvah) which God has said no longer applies, or makes false statements in the name of God. As Judaism believes that God's word is true eternally, one who claims to speak in God's name but diverges in any way from what God himself has said, logically cannot be inspired by divine authority. Deuteronomy 13:1 states simply, "Be careful to observe only that which I enjoin upon you; neither add to it nor take away from it."

Even if someone who appears to be a prophet can perform supernatural acts or signs, no prophet or dreamer can contradict the laws already stated in the Bible.

Thus, any divergence from the tenets of Biblical Judaism espoused by Jesus would disqualify him from being considered a prophet in Judaism. This was the view adopted by Jesus' contemporaries, as according to rabbinical tradition as stated in the Talmud (Sotah48b) "when Malachi died the Prophecy departed from Israel." As Malachi lived centuries before Jesus it is clear that the rabbis of Talmudic times did not view Jesus as a divinely-inspired prophet.

[kasalt]

Very interesting post, Kasalt.

Some things were new for me, here's more about the 'virgin' part..http://www.outreachjudaism.org/alma.htm

Yes, this debate springs from the differences between the Greek Septuagint and the Hebrew text of the Old Testament.

The Greek Septuagint was translated by Jewish scholars in the 2nd-3rd centuries BC for use by diaspora Jews who no longer spoke Hebrew due to the fact that they were dispersed into Greek-speaking areas of the world. It was also used by the earliest Christians who, being Gentiles, obviously spoke Greek and did not know Hebrew.

According to scholar V.S. Herrell (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=456757&postcount=2):In Isaiah 7:14 of the Greek Septuagint, the word parthenos is used, and it literally means a virgin. In the Masoretic Text, however, the word is almah which means a young girl. The usual Hebrew word for virgin, and the word in every case translated virgin in the Revised Version, is bethuwlah. This verse is quoted from Isaiah in the Christian Scriptures in Matthew 1:23. The Jews attacked the Septuagint from the beginning because they claimed that it had been corrupted by the Christians and that the Christians changed the word in the Septuagint to read virgin instead of young woman so that it would support the reading in Matthew.
Jews claim that Christians inserted the word parthenos into the Greek Septuagint in order to create a messianic prophecy which the Christians then claimed was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The Christians, for their part, claim that the original Hebrew wording was corrupted by the Jews so as to deprive the Christians of a key fulfillment of messianic prophecy regarding the virgin birth of Jesus.

In answer to the question of who is right and who is wrong in this case, I'd say it is simply another case of "You decide".

There is much more regarding the debate over the Septuagint v. the Hebrew text of the Old Testament in my thread entitled "The Septuagint v. the Masoretic Text", linked here:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32990

[mephibosheth]

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

Since when did God talk to the whole nation? As I recall, he spoke directly to Moses, giving him the commandments, and then Moses went and passed them along to the people who were busy doing their own thing below. And then, throughout history, God spoke directly to single prophets, individual persons, and not the whole nation. So this claim doesn't make much sense to me.

But the other stuff, yeah, there's no mystery there.

All this assuming Jesus was a real person annoying the traditional Jews with his rebellious ways.

8)

[kasalt]

Since when did God talk to the whole nation? As I recall, he spoke directly to Moses, giving him the commandments, and then Moses went and passed them along to the people who were busy doing their own thing below. And then, throughout history, God spoke directly to single prophets, individual persons, and not the whole nation. So this claim doesn't make much sense to me.

I think you have a point. Exodus chapters 19 and 20 clearly state that God spoke only with Moses (and perhaps Aaron) while the people "stood afar off" (Ex. 20:21). Exodus 19:16 states that all the people saw was "thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud". Exodus 19:19 does state that at one point, "Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice", but this is all that the people saw and heard. From then on, it was only God and Moses at the top of Mount Sinai. The people were left out of the loop, so in my opinion that hardly qualifies as a "national revelation". It was more of a personal revelation to Moses with the people witnessing some smoke and mirrors from a distance.

[danceswithbunnies]

Yes some of the best anti-conversion literature out there is written by Rabbis.
Some of them have websites with downloadable books on the subject...if you want i can look for that link.

No one can deny that most jews and the more liberal rabbis are some of the most erudite and intelligent people one can meet.

However, about those noachide laws....
I have read that there is legislation signed in by executive order by Bush Sr. ordering "Education Day" and the honoring of Rabbi Schneerson..that the US is in fact ushering the one world religion in and it will in fact be the Noachide laws.

Now i am not sure how accurate these reports are, because i tend to take everything with a grain of salt...i do know that several people who know more than i do about it, have remarked that Universal Commercial Code resemble talmudic law.
At any rate the penalty for breaking Noachide alw if it is instituted is beheading.
By this law all christians could be beheaded.(please take note christians) as well as people who are agnostic, muslim or any other religion, for blasphemy.

The noachide laws are talmudic in origin.

Here is a non christian source:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_oneworldreligion.htm

Here is a christian source:
http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/comingjewishutopia.html

Take it with a grain of salt...but bear it in mind

[kasalt]

What Will the Moshiach Do?

Source: http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16).

The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

What About Jesus?

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

[kasalt]

This may be the single biggest reason why Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah:Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeconiah) (Matthew 1:11 (http://bible.cc/matthew/1-11.htm)) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30 (http://bible.cc/jeremiah/22-30.htm); 36:30 (http://bible.cc/jeremiah/36-30.htm))
Link to source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp
According to Matthew 1:11, Jesus was descended from Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiakin), who was the son of Jehoiakim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoiakim). But regarding Jeconiah (aka Jehoiakin) Jeremiah 22:30 clearly states:"No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."
If we are to take Jeremiah 22:30 and 36:30 literally, it would hardly seem possible that Jesus could be the Messiah, the "lion of the tribe of Judah", and heir to the throne of King David.

[uncia]

This may be the single biggest reason why Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah:Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeconiah) (Matthew 1:11 (http://bible.cc/matthew/1-11.htm)) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30 (http://bible.cc/jeremiah/22-30.htm); 36:30 (http://bible.cc/jeremiah/36-30.htm))
Link to source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp
According to Matthew 1:11, Jesus was descended from Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiakin), who was the son of Jehoiakim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoiakim). But regarding Jeconiah (aka Jehoiakin) Jeremiah 22:30 clearly states:"No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."
If we are to take Jeremiah 22:30 and 36:30 literally, it would hardly seem possible that Jesus could be the Messiah, the "lion of the tribe of Judah", and heir to the throne of King David.
Interesting point you have, which I think ties in with the nationalist aspirations of the Jews. Orthodox Jews continue to see in the Messiah a national hero, who will lead the Jews to the supremacy of the whole world. Although Jesus was descended from David, clearly he was not a King in human terms. This shows how deluded the Jews are: they still imagine that the Messiah will cause them to rule over the world. They simply don't understand what the Kingdom of Heaven is about.

[phildee3]

Although Jesus was descended from David, clearly he was not a King in human terms. This shows how deluded the Jews are: they still imagine that the Messiah will cause them to rule over the world. They simply don't understand what the Kingdom of Heaven is about.



What an arrogant and condescending remark!

Fact is, some Jews do believe in Jesus,
and among those who don't, very few "imagine that the Messiah will cause them to rule over the world."

The proportion of Jews who "believe in Jesus" is about the same as the proportion of non-Jews who do!
More, if anything!
So why not start a thread entitled "Why don't non-Jews believe in Jesus?"?

[uncia]

What an arrogant and condescending remark!

Fact is, some Jews do believe in Jesus,
and among those who don't, very few "imagine that the Messiah will cause them to rule over the world."

The proportion of Jews who "believe in Jesus" is about the same as the proportion of non-Jews who do!
More, if anything!
So why not start a thread entitled "Why don't non-Jews believe in Jesus?"?
I think it was obvious that I was referring to non-Christian Jews who reject Jesus, being the subject of this thread. What a condescending post you have there.

[phildee3]

I think it was obvious that I was referring to non-Christian Jews who reject Jesus, being the subject of this thread.



Well, it seems to me that kasalt is referring to Jews as a whole...
and that you did too.

[manxboz]

There are Jews who beleive in Christ as the Messiah, and alot of Jews beleive in Jesus as a man and nothing more. There are many refs to the second coming.

[mephibosheth]

Although Jesus was descended from David, clearly he was not a King in human terms.


If Jesus is who Christians claim then he is absolute not 'descended from David' or any other human being. That should be pretty plain. So any claim to the contrary is utterly false.

8)

[armoured_amazon]

Good thread. :)

[kasalt]

Fact is, some Jews do believe in Jesus...

Of course, some Jews do believe in Jesus. They are called "Messianic Jews", but they are very few in number. Furthermore, Jews who do believe in Jesus are not regarded as Jews by the majority who do not:
Although many Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish and argue that Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism, the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism. Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.
"The central characteristic defining the Messianic Jewish movement as Christian, rather than Jewish, is its belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ. This central tenet of belief is seen by the great majority of Christians and Jews as being the defining distinction between the two religions. This is also the opinion of the Supreme Court of Israel regarding immediate and automatic eligibility for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return)...[T]he various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism. Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews
Law of Return: Messianic Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Messianic_Jews)
"The Supreme Court of Israel ruled in 1989 that Messianic Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism) constituted another religion, and that Jews who had become Messianic Jews were not therefore eligible for Aliyah under the law. The government of Israel used this ruling to exclude anyone who was a Messianic Jew."
...and among those who don't, very few "imagine that the Messiah will cause them to rule over the world."

I'm not so sure about that...
What Will the Moshiach Do?
The messiah... "will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles" (Isaiah 2:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa%202:2-4&version=9;); 11:10 (http://bible.cc/isaiah/11-10.htm); 42:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:1;&version=9;)).
Source: http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

See also: Jewish messianism--Scriptural requirements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism#Scriptural_requirements)

The proportion of Jews who "believe in Jesus" is about the same as the proportion of non-Jews who do!
More, if anything!

That is an absurdly erroneous claim, Phil. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity#Demographics), "The Christian share of the world's population has stood at around 33 per cent for the last hundred years." I guarantee you, you are not going to find 1/3 of Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Not even close.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

lulz!! :D

When Babylon is unsuccessful in Transforming Yahshua HaMashiyach into some kind of lecherous Torahless pagan diety, they refer to their Babylonish Pagan Playbook for their Fallback Position. IE:He never existed.

There has been currently a massive recognition of Yahshua by orthodox believers. The Torah Conscious and Observant Messiah. They still reject the westernized Greco/Roman Torahless Pagan Deity.

Here's whats happenin'!

http://www.yahshua.net/prophChrist.htm

And what is coming:

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=home&type=2

too many errors in OP to respond now.

Beware of Darkness

[turbine]

Yeah, they only killed him after all.

[kevincent]

ok i just read that like all that, here's my 2 cents.

GOD IS THE LORD.
THE LORD IS KING.
Jesus IS KING. and A King RULES A KINGDOM. (thats Heaven) 2BCONTINUED....












He WAS FULLY GOD/FULLY MAN. He died a man's death nailed to the cross (and 1 tough mother f#$%r I might add)


Mary was sinless probaly up until the day Jesus was physiclly born,
he was born from Mary, so there's his mom, he had no physical dad, but yet he always referred to "his Father" )(GOD ALMIGHTY!)( .....so how is'nt he a descendent of King David? EVERY HUMAN BEING WHO EVER EXISTED NOW, BACK THEN, OR A ZILLION YEARS FROM NOW ON EARTH IS RELATED TO ADAM & EVE. King David was related to them, Mary was related to King David (yeah maybe not on Jesus' Father's side since his dad IS God who's a spirit, and he's the one who breathed his breathe of life into the 1st human being. they're all of our greatest grandparents. it gets no greater than Adam&Eve. because of those 2 having kids and so on...somehow i'm related to the blackest person on earth and im white as a ghost.

im not totally right obviously, nobody is. no one is perfect but HIM. just my opinion on this. ahhhhhh peace out.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Since when did God talk to the whole nation? As I recall, he spoke directly to Moses, giving him the commandments, and then Moses went and passed them along to the people who were busy doing their own thing below. And then, throughout history, God spoke directly to single prophets, individual persons, and not the whole nation. So this claim doesn't make much sense to me.


Hi, this may help:


http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_faith.htm

Scripturally:Exodus-20:1-20 definitive.

Yahwehs Thunderings, Lightnings, and Heavenly Shofar Blasts unnerved the Mixed Multitude. The 12 Tribes and the Gentiles who accompanied them.

After the first ten commandments, the peeps got nervous and shitty and begged that Yahweh not speak to them directly. In essence, the children are still audibly present, but the orator now directs His Focus upon Moshe. The children can still hear, after all there were 603 more Judgements, Statutes and Commandments to go through. Also all the curses.

Exodus 34:10 'in front of all your peeps', supports the National Revelation.

Also, Deuteronomy 5:4 [Mosheh to the peeps]: 'Yahweh spoke to you Face to Face out of the midst of fire'.

Yahweh originall worked with Individuals, then a Group, and finally with all Earthlings.

Yahweh, before this National Revelation, offered this info to Edom/Esau, who declined, then to the 12 Nations of the sons of Ishmael, they also demurred.


So the Hebrew and Gentiles with them at Hoereb/Sinai received the Torah.

:cool:


Torah
http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=26&type=12

sons of Ishmael
http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=24&type=12


And a special Bonus fo kaSalt :)

children of salt
http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=27&type=12

Definitly a very unique occurence

[kasalt]

Yahwehs Thunderings, Lightnings, and Heavenly Shofar Blasts unnerved the Mixed Multitude. The 12 Tribes and the Gentiles who accompanied them.

After the first ten commandments, the peeps got nervous and shitty and begged that Yahweh not speak to them directly. In essence, the children are still audibly present, but the orator now directs His Focus upon Moshe. The children can still hear, after all there were 603 more Judgements, Statutes and Commandments to go through. Also all the curses.

According to the book of Exodus, the Israelites heard only the "Ten Commandments". The rest was delivered privately to Moses who then passed the information on to the people. The text is clear on this. Exodus 20:22 (http://kingjbible.com/exodus/20.htm) states, "the LORD said unto Moses, 'Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel...'" Then Exodus 21:1 (http://kingjbible.com/exodus/21.htm) states, "Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.'" Finally, Exodus 24:3 (http://kingjbible.com/exodus/24.htm) says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments..."

...which is clear indication according to the text that the Israelites could no longer hear what was being said.

[foobar]

If Jesus is who Christians claim then he is absolute not 'descended from David' or any other human being. That should be pretty plain. So any claim to the contrary is utterly false.

8)

Other than the fact he was supposed to have a human mother.

[eternal_spirit]

According to the book of Exodus, the Israelites heard only the "Ten Commandments". The rest was delivered privately to Moses who then passed the information on to the people. The text is clear on this. Exodus 20:22 (http://kingjbible.com/exodus/20.htm) states, "the LORD said unto Moses, 'Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel...'" Then Exodus 21:1 (http://kingjbible.com/exodus/21.htm) states, "Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.'" Finally, Exodus 24:3 (http://kingjbible.com/exodus/24.htm) says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments..."

...which is clear indication according to the text that the Israelites could no longer hear what was being said.

Good post. So the "National revelation" (all the people of Israel hearing the laws spoken by God) they only actually heard 10 laws/commandments not 613.

So Moses was probably given the rest of the laws by some mysterious person or persons (Priesthood) (or God lol) Or, he pulled the rest of the laws out of thin air.

No way did God the creator speak the laws on that day (I'll never believe it was God) Maybe it was some Priesthood speaking, hiding in a cave or behind rocks, a ventriloquist who could throw his voice and make it bounce off the Mountain.

Hidden technologies like a proto type Alex Jones bullhorn :D.

People where easily fooled in those days and probably overly superstitious, "seeing is believing, hearing is hearing etc."
Mass hypnosis, hallucinations, did they check if Moses spiked their food/drink with some Hallucinogenic plants.

[eternal_spirit]

Why would the people believe it was God giving out the laws? Why would they want to follow the laws? how where the laws enforced?

How did someone or group of people get the other people to believe in such things?

Sounds more like a made up story than something that took place in reality.

[always_rebel]

It is not my opinion that I am presenting here. I am not Jewish. My purpose in posting this thread is to explain the Jewish view of Jesus.

They view him as a bastard that now is boiled in hot excrements in hell.

Any questions?

also:

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Jews are Divine, Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Says Jesus was a Sorcerer, Sanhedrin 43a . Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Gittin 57a . Says Jesus ( see footnote #4) is being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a . Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jews1.htm

[always_rebel]

The proportion of Jews who "believe in Jesus" is about the same as the proportion of non-Jews who do

Source for that please.

And also tell us please, HOW do they believe?

[mephibosheth]

Other than the fact he was supposed to have a human mother.


Other than the fact that this is completely irrelevant to any claim of descent regarding a rightful title to kingship (not determined by mother's lineage).

Other than the fact that immaculate conception suggests that Jesus is not genetically linked to Mary, but only 'born of Mary', ie, carried and delivered by Mary. Mary is, at best, a surrogate, a host. God didn't bone Mary, folks, so there is no divine semen fusing with Mary's eggs. This is immaculate. Magical.





He WAS FULLY GOD/FULLY MAN. He died a man's death nailed to the cross (and 1 tough mother f#$%r I might add)


God can't die. God was not created and cannot be uncreated.





Mary was sinless probaly up until the day Jesus was physiclly born,


LOL, there's absolutely no reason to believe this. Mary wasn't special other than the fact that she was chosen to carry the implanted Jesus fetus. She wasn't like Jesus, who supposedly never sinned.





he was born from Mary, so there's his mom, he had no physical dad, but yet he always referred to "his Father" )(GOD ALMIGHTY!)( .....so how is'nt he a descendent of King David?


Jesus did not have a 'mother' if he did not have a 'father' in the human sense. If he magically manifest himself in Mary's womb, there's absolutely no reason to think that, for some reason, he needed to use any part of Mary to do so, including her eggs and genetic material. So no, Jesus isn't descended from anyone, if he is immaculately conceived. He just appears ex nihlo, deus ex Maryna.

8)

[kasalt]

No way did God the creator speak the laws on that day (I'll never believe it was God) Maybe it was some Priesthood speaking, hiding in a cave or behind rocks, a ventriloquist who could throw his voice and make it bounce off the Mountain.

BWHAHAHAHA! :D

I don't know if that was the case, but Deuteronomy 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%204:15%20;&version=9;) does say that the Israelites did not see who was speaking:Deuteronomy 4:15 - "You did not see the Lord’s form on the day he spoke to you from the heart of the fire at Mount Sinai."
People where easily fooled in those days and probably overly superstitious, "seeing is believing, hearing is hearing etc."
Mass hypnosis, hallucinations, did they check if Moses spiked their food/drink with some Hallucinogenic plants.

Who knows... That theory has been put forward before:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21333

[kasalt]

The following are a few quotes from an online book about the Jewish view of Jesus and the Messiah. Some of the information has been posted before but much of it is new...

Source: The Jewish Response to Missionaries (http://jewsforjudaism.org/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=5&Itemid=47), by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz, pp. 29-32 (PDF format)

THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2017:15;&version=9;), Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2049:10;&version=9;)) and a direct male descendant of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=II%20Chronicles%207:12-18;&version=9;))
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2011:12;&version=9;))
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Micah%204:1;&version=9;))
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%202:4;&version=9;), Isaiah 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2011:6;&version=9;), Micah 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Micah%204:3;&version=9;))
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2011:9;&version=9;), Isaiah 40:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2040:5;&version=9;), Zephaniah 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zephaniah%203:9;&version=9;))

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.

WHY JESUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE JEWISH MESSIAH

A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that, although Jesus was Jewish, he did not fulfill any of the other criteria. An examination of the contradictory accounts of Jesus’ genealogy demonstrates a number of difficulties with the fulfillment of the second criterion. Specifically, the New Testament claims that Jesus did not have a physical father. The Jewish Scriptures, however, clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s physical father (Numbers 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%201:18;&version=9;), Jeremiah 33:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2033:17;&version=9;)). Therefore, Jesus cannot possibly be a descendant of the tribe of Judah nor of King David and King Solomon.

There are even further problems with any attempts to use the Jewish Scriptures to prove Jesus’ genealogy through Joseph, the husband of Mary (Jesus’ mother). For the New Testament claims that Joseph was a descendant of King Jeconiah, who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendant “sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2022:30;&version=9;)). Joseph’s genealogy, even if it were transmittable to Jesus, would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.

Finally, there is the problem of the contradictory accounts of Jesus’ genealogy in Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3. The common Christian explanation of this contradiction claims that Luke’s genealogy is that of Jesus’ mother, Mary. However, this is unfounded, even according to the Greek original. In addition, it has already been established that genealogy is transferred solely through the father, making this attempted explanation completely irrelevant. Even if one could trace one’s genealogy through one’s mother, there would be the additional problem that Luke 3:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203:31%20;&version=9;) lists Mary as a descendant of David through Nathan, Solomon’s brother, and not through Solomon himself as required according to the prophesy in I Chronicles 22:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:5-10%20;&version=9;) of the Jewish Bible.

The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled—neither during Jesus’ time nor since. Any Christian
claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a “Second Coming” are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.

To summarize, we cannot know that someone is the Messiah until he fulfills all of the above criteria.

The Messiah was never meant to be an object of worship. His primary mission and accomplishment is to bring world peace and to fill the world with the knowledge and awareness of one G-d.

[uncia]

He WAS FULLY GOD/FULLY MAN.

Christ was not "fully God" because he did not have the form of God. In fact it would be wrong to refer to the human Jesus as God, because if he was God, he could not be human at the same time.

It is logically impossible to be fully God and fully human. That's why Paul says when the word was made flesh, he gave up the form of God, whilst retaining the identity or personality of God.


Mary was sinless probaly up until the day Jesus was physiclly born,

No. There is nothing in the bible that says that.


... he had no physical dad,

It's reasonable to assume that when he was conceived, he took of the human characteristics also of Joseph, who would have been his father.

[miracles]

Christ was not "fully God" because he did not have the form of God. In fact it would be wrong to refer to the human Jesus as God, because if he was God, he could not be human at the same time.

It is logically impossible to be fully God and fully human. That's why Paul says when the word was made flesh, he gave up the form of God, whilst retaining the identity or personality of God.


No. There is nothing in the bible that says that.


It's reasonable to assume that when he was conceived, he took of the human characteristics also of Joseph, who would have been his father.

Christ was fully God and Fully man. John said, In the beginning was the word, and word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh (God became flesh) and dwelt among us, and was the light of all men. Are you saying the God, can not be God the Father, God the Son and God the spirit all at the same time? In that case he isn't God.

It is unreasonable, if you state that you are Christian, to state also that Christ was and is not fully God.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Good post. So the "National revelation" (all the people of Israel hearing the laws spoken by God) they only actually heard 10 laws/commandments not 613.

So Moses was probably given the rest of the laws by some mysterious person or persons (Priesthood) (or God lol) Or, he pulled the rest of the laws out of thin air.

No way did God the creator speak the laws on that day (I'll never believe it was God) Maybe it was some Priesthood speaking, hiding in a cave or behind rocks, a ventriloquist who could throw his voice and make it bounce off the Mountain.

Hidden technologies like a proto type Alex Jones bullhorn :D.

People where easily fooled in those days and probably overly superstitious, "seeing is believing, hearing is hearing etc."
Mass hypnosis, hallucinations, did they check if Moses spiked their food/drink with some Hallucinogenic plants.

I disagree: Read my Post again CAREFULLY; Yahweh merely directed His attention directly to Mosheh.

His voice was still audible to the quaking mass.

You also diregard all the TANGIBLE BENEFITS that benefit ALL humans, individually and enmass.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/hollymick/Macht1953.pdf

Prevention of STDs:

http://www.cdc.gov/std/

http://www.cdc.gov/std/dstdp/


Laws concerning Animal Husbandry, Environmental Husbandry.

Fair & Equal Measures in Business Dealings, Personal Relationships.

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=26&type=12

THE SMOKING MOUNTAIN

Scripture teaches that quaking, smoking, light, and thunderings accompanied the giving of Torah according to Shemot/Exodus 20:18-19. All of the people of Israel gathered at Sinai saw the lighting, fire, and smoke, and heard the shofar. This is the only kind of smoking Yahweh approves of. When all Israel saw this smoking, they backed off, and stood at a distance from fear. In verse 18 the word thunderings is used rather than the singular thunder. The assembly at Sinai when the ecclesia was first born in 1500 BCE, was gathered to see this light and fire show, so they in turn could turn to the nations, and let Yahweh’s light shine forth. Among the many manifestations was the ongoing thunderings (plural)! According to the understanding of Jewish-Israel, the thunderings were given in the plural form, so that the living oracles of Torah would be given in many tongues or languages, and that all 70 known nations at the time of the exodus would and could receive the grace that Israel was receiving at Sinai. It was Yahweh’s purpose to deliver His Word in tongues, so that all known nations could and should walk in the light of Torah, as a lamp to their feet, and a light to their path (Tehillim 119:105). The thunderings represented Yahweh's affirmation that it was always His desire for all nations to hear His Word, not merely the immediate recipients at the base of Sinai. In fact at Sinai, Psalm 138:4 began to take place, as the Torah was given in the tongues of all the earth’s rulers, who in turn would also teach it to their peoples. It was for this reason that the nation heard thunderings not merely thunder!

A TORAH OF TONGUES OF FIRE

The idea and concept that Yahweh split His voice in 70 tongues, is a Hebraic concept based on both tradition and Torah. His split His voice in order to signify that Torah was for all nations of the earth, not just for the people today known as the Jews or Jewish-Israel. To signify this desire, He split His voice in a supernatural manifestation in 70 differing ways, so that all nations would have an inward desire to hear, walk, and receive the truths of Torah. In due course, they all would receive the exact same chesesd/grace that Israel His son was receiving in person on Sinai, through the nation of Israel. When Yahweh birthed the ecclesia at Sinai circa 1500 BCE, He supernaturally ordained the thunderings, so as to signify that the sound of Torah was to encompass the globe, and not be limited to that one particular place, time or nation. Israel’s task was to take that same Torah to the nations that had previously rejected Torah, when Yahweh came personally knocking on their door.


Absolutely the mixed multitude; Israelites and Gentiles heard the entire speech whether they wanted to or not.

These were not primitive people, in many ways the 'thinking' was much more sophisticated then it is today.

A good example of current thought is the pervasiveness of 'Adult Adolescence', immature and sophmoric analysis of subjects not studied, or lacking necessary prerequisites.

Subject to personal Biases and Prejudices.

The Book of Yahweh; not surprisingly, is a favourite subject of many 'Adult Adolescents'.

I've made several Challenges to the Body of Pagans assembled here:

Show me the Math; Show me the Science of your Pagan gods, and I will show you Babylon.


Yahweh delivered very important Scientific Information that day, to 70 Nations.

I, for one, am favourably impressed. :)

Who else has shown more concern for Humanbeings in such a specific manner? :confused:

According to Hebraic understanding, there are actually three Adams. There is Adam the first husband of Chavah, the nation of Israel, and the promised Moshaich. Scripture calls Messiah Yahshua the second Adam. But the second physical Adam is actually the personification of the second corporate Adam known as the nation of Israel. This concept can be fully grasped from such scriptures as Hosea 11:1 and Shemot 4:22-23. These scriptures speak of Yahweh’s three sons as Adam, Israel, and Messiah Yahshua. The second son was to be a light to the nations, as they were called, and ordained to take the light, and liberating truth of Torah to all nations. For that evangelical purpose, all Israel was betrothed to Almighty Yahweh. Israel was delivered by chesed/grace from Mitzrayim to fulfill Yahweh’s purpose, as well as to fulfill covenant to the patriarchs. Sadly Israel did not fulfill their divine mission, due to rabbinical fences placed around the Torah to prevent others from enjoying its light, and grace. These manmade additions, and fences designed to keep non-Israelites out of Torah light, was distasteful and displeasing to our Heavenly Abba. Surely He would need to address this issue in the future.

the 'Rabbi' is absolutely wrong about the 'curse' on King Jeconiah, as there were three 'curses' and scripturally, all three curses were rescinded.

Also the geneology dispute is unnecessary. Like the critics claim of two creation accounts. there is one account; two perspectives.

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/genealogy/

Alleged Discrepancies
A discussion of the genealogies would be incomplete without considering some of the apparent discrepancies between the records. Some of the most common objections are raised here.
Those which are addressed in greater detail in the preceding information, are briefly recapped.

1. If Matthew indicated there were 42 generations from Abraham to Jesus, why do only 41 names appear in his genealogy?
This is a common objection, which a cursory look at Matthew 1:17 would seem to justify.
However, careful examination shows that Matthew broke the genealogy down into three historic divisions, each of which contained fourteen generations. David's name was repeated because he was alive when the first division ended, and the second division began.

2. Matthew's genealogy is inconsistent with Old Testament records, that show Matthew skipped generations.
Matthew's genealogy was deliberately abridged. This may have been to aid in memorization of the tables. Old Testament writers also abridged their genealogical records, so Matthew had scriptural precedent to do so (compare Ezra 7:3 with 1 Chronicles 6:7-10).

3. Comparison shows that Matthew and Luke did not record the same names in their genealogies. Since they are not in harmony with each other, one or both of them must be erroneous.
Matthew and Luke traced two family histories. Matthew recorded the ancestors of Joseph, the legal father of Jesus. Luke recorded the ancestors of Mary, the biological mother of Jesus. The divergence of names is natural, given the fact that both authors presented two different family trees.

4. Luke stated that Joseph was the son of Heli, while Matthew stated he was the son of Jacob.
The Jerusalem Talmud shows that Joseph was the son-in-law of Heli. Joseph's father was Jacob. It was customary to refer to a son-in-law as a son in the first century. So Luke's statement was culturally correct.

[eternal_spirit]

snoopsnuffleopagus

The idea and concept that Yahweh split His voice in 70 tongues, is a Hebraic concept based on both tradition and Torah. His split His voice in order to signify that Torah was for all nations of the earth, not just for the people today known as the Jews or Jewish-Israel. To signify this desire, He split His voice in a supernatural manifestation in 70 differing ways, so that all nations would have an inward desire to hear, walk, and receive the truths of Torah.Broadcast Worldwide on Yahweh TV channels. :D

[uncia]

Christ was fully God and Fully man. John said, In the beginning was the word, and word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh (God became flesh) and dwelt among us, and was the light of all men. Are you saying the God, can not be God the Father, God the Son and God the spirit all at the same time? In that case he isn't God.

It is unreasonable, if you state that you are Christian, to state also that Christ was and is not fully God.
I will say again it's not a matter of belief, but a matter of etymology. The word God is used in contradistinction to man to emphasize the distinctness of God. After all, man is made in the image of God so we need some distinguishing feature. But then the word became flesh, and so it ceased to be fully God, just because it was flesh, although retaining the identity of God. It really is not very clever to try to portray the Son as fully God, because if he were, then he would have had no need to communicate with or depend on his father on earth, because he would have been God.

[element]

It really is not very clever to try to portray the Son as fully God, because if he were, then he would have had no need to communicate with or depend on his father on earth, because he would have been God.
Exactly.

[kasalt]

this is completely irrelevant to any claim of descent regarding a rightful title to kingship (not determined by mother's lineage).

Then what was the point of presenting genealogies for Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke?

Those genealogies were obviously presented in order to give the reader the impression that Jesus had a legal right to the claim of Messiah based upon his lineage, but the fact of the matter is that in both of the genealogies presented, Mary and Joseph are disqualified from being either the legal or the biological parents of the messiah.

Matthew and Luke traced two family histories. Matthew recorded the ancestors of Joseph, the legal father of Jesus. Luke recorded the ancestors of Mary, the biological mother of Jesus.

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/genealogy/

If Joseph was "the legal father of Jesus", then Jesus is legally invalidated from being the messiah because Joseph was legally invalidated from being the father of the messiah. Joseph cannot be the legal father of the messiah because according to Matthew 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:11;&version=51;), Joseph was descended from Jeconiah. This legally invalidates Joseph from being the father of the messiah because according to Jeremiah 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2022:28-30;&version=64;), "none of Jeconiah's offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah." So Joseph is disqualified from being either the legal or biological father of the messiah.

Likewise with Mary, Jesus is disqualified from being the messiah because Mary was disqualified from being either the legal or biological mother of the messiah. In Luke 3:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203:31%20;&version=51;), we find that Mary was descended from King David through his son Nathan, but according to I Chronicles 22:6-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:6-10;&version=51;), the messiah must be descended from King David through his son Solomon.

Based on their geneologies, both Joseph and Mary were disqualified from being either the legal or biological parents of the messiah.

[mephibosheth]

Based on their geneologies, both Joseph and Mary were disqualified from being either the legal or biological parents of the messiah.

And that leaves us with...the character decribed does not fit the bill for the Hebrew messiah.

And Christians, from the start, sought--in a typical paradoxical fashion--to legitimatize their claims by 'showing' how their messiah character fulfills certain old prophesies, which he doesn't.

But it begs the question, unless the people who wrote the NT were actually ignorant of the OT and the rules for what constitutes a messiah. If those people just made up the Jesus character, why not make us a perfect back-story too? It sounds more like someone who was existent, but was straining (or his followers were straining) to fit him into a box where he just didn't fit. Or, its a sloppy mishmash concocted by the Romans to serve political purposes. We see that all the time, when people try to connect themselves to some older tradition but are basically 'outsiders' and lack the careful and practiced knowledge of that tradition, and only use a smattering of it to make it look authentic to the unwary on the surface.

8)

[uncia]

Based on their geneologies, both Joseph and Mary were disqualified from being either the legal or biological parents of the messiah.
The Jews never understood that the Messiah's kingdom would be the kingdom of heaven; and that "Israel" meaning "God prevails" did not only infer the Jewish race. The problem with the Jews has always been their failure to understand which kingdom the Messiah would claim.

The Messiah was not interested in sitting on "the throne of David" because it had ceased to exist at the time of the Babylonian exile. Descent is the only material aspect, and Jesus fulfilled the criteria.

[kasalt]

Descent is the only material aspect, and Jesus fulfilled the criteria.

What criteria did Jesus fulfill?

Are you saying that Jesus was not the biological son of Mary? Because if he was, how can it be claimed that he was the messiah when Mary was descended from Nathan instead of from Solomon? According to scripture, the messiah is supposed to be a descendant of David through Solomon (I Chronicles 22:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:6-10;&version=64;)).

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

[QUOTE=kasalt;1015745]What criteria did Jesus fulfill?
QUOTE]

He is: Shiloh

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=21&type=12

I'd like to see the credentials of this "Rabbi"

[uncia]

What criteria did Jesus fulfill?

Are you saying that Jesus was not the biological son of Mary? Because if he was, how can it be claimed that he was the messiah when Mary was descended from Nathan instead of from Solomon? According to scripture, the messiah is supposed to be a descendant of David through Solomon (I Chronicles 22:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:6-10;&version=64;)).
The passage you refer to seems to be referring specifically to a covenant that God made with Solomon to establish "the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever."

Unfortunately there is a clear conflict between this passage and Psalm 132:

11 The LORD swore an oath to David,
a sure oath that he will not revoke:
"One of your own descendants
I will place on your throne-

12 if your sons keep my covenant
and the statutes I teach them,
then their sons will sit
on your throne for ever and ever.

As for Solomon, we know that God changed his mind due to Solomon's sins. The kingdom quickly became split up between Judea and Israel, over which David's descendants did not reign. There is a possibility that Chronicles will have to give way to the Psalms here. In any event, Chronicles is a much later post-Babylonian-exile work and is in conflict with other parts of the bible, especially Kings, in various respects. The answer is "we don't have to rely on this passage from Chronicles exclusively and we know the accuracy of Chronicles is sometimes suspect"

[kasalt]

The passage you refer to seems to be referring specifically to a covenant that God made with Solomon to establish "the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever."

Unfortunately there is a clear conflict between this passage and Psalm 132...

As for Solomon, we know that God changed his mind due to Solomon's sins. The kingdom quickly became split up between Judea and Israel, over which David's descendants did not reign.

I see no conflict between I Chronicles 22:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:6-10;&version=64;) and Psalm 132 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20132;&version=64;) and here is why:

1 Kings 11:28-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:28-36;&version=64;) states that the kingdom of Judah (including the city of Jerusalem, i.e. Zion) was given to a son of Solomon. Therefore the messianic line of descent through Solomon was not invalidated.

[uncia]

I see no conflict between I Chronicles 22:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:6-10;&version=64;) and Psalm 132 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20132;&version=64;) and here is why:

1 Kings 11:28-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2011:28-36;&version=64;) states that the kingdom of Judah (including the city of Jerusalem, i.e. Zion) was given to a son of Solomon. Therefore the messianic line of descent through Solomon was not invalidated.
I think it was invalidated. God revoked the covenant with Solomon and so Solomon's line did not give rise to the Messiah. You have to go back to Psalm 132.

[kasalt]

I think it was invalidated. God revoked the covenant with Solomon and so Solomon's line did not give rise to the Messiah. You have to go back to Psalm 132.

Psalm 132 does not invalidate the messianic line of descent through Solomon. The following scriptures prove that the line of descent for the messiah went from David on to Solomon and through to Solomon's son Rehoboam:
1 Kings 11:36
Yet to Solomon's son Rehoboam I will give one tribe, that David My servant may always have a light before Me in Jerusalem, the city where I have chosen to put My Name.

1 Kings 15:4
Nevertheless, for David's sake the Lord his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, setting up his son Rehoboam after him and establishing Jerusalem,

2 Chronicles 21:7
But the Lord would not destroy the house of David, because He had made a covenant with David and promised to give a light to him and to his sons forever.
And then, claiming fulfillment of the above quotes, the New Testament applies those prophecies to Jesus:
Luke 1:69
He has raised up a Horn of salvation for us in the house of David His servant.
Biblically speaking, there is no doubt about it. The messiah must be a descendant of Solomon.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Then what was the point of presenting genealogies for Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke?

Those genealogies were obviously presented in order to give the reader the impression that Jesus had a legal right to the claim of Messiah based upon his lineage, but the fact of the matter is that in both of the genealogies presented, Mary and Joseph are disqualified from being either the legal or the biological parents of the messiah.

If Joseph was "the legal father of Jesus", then Jesus is legally invalidated from being the messiah because Joseph was legally invalidated from being the father of the messiah. Joseph cannot be the legal father of the messiah because according to Matthew 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:11;&version=51;), Joseph was descended from Jeconiah. This legally invalidates Joseph from being the father of the messiah because according to Jeremiah 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2022:28-30;&version=64;), "none of Jeconiah's offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah." So Joseph is disqualified from being either the legal or biological father of the messiah.Likewise with Mary, Jesus is disqualified from being the messiah because Mary was disqualified from being either the legal or biological mother of the messiah. In Luke 3:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203:31%20;&version=51;), we find that Mary was descended from King David through his son Nathan, but according to I Chronicles 22:6-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2022:6-10;&version=51;), the messiah must be descended from King David through his son Solomon.

Based on their geneologies, both Joseph and Mary were disqualified from being either the legal or biological parents of the messiah.

kasalt: why do you disregard the evidence I provided which countered ALL these arguments and more.

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/genealogy/

The Curse of Jehoiakim
An unusual curse in Jeremiah 36:1-32 gives new insight into the virgin birth of Jesus.

The Curse
Jehoiakim was a king of Israel. He angered God by burning a scroll that Jeremiah the prophet wrote. God cursed Jehoiakim by indicating that none of his children would sit on the throne of David (Jeremiah 36:29-31). And although Jehoiakim had children, scripture shows that none of them ever reigned as King David had.

The Problem
Joseph, the father of Jesus, was one of Jehoiakim's descendants (through Jeconiah). Joseph's offspring could not claim David's throne because of the curse. Jesus laid claim to the throne of David (Luke 1:32, Acts 2:30, Hebrews 12:2). If Jesus had been born of Joseph, the curse would have been contradicted.
Also, God had promised David that one of his physical descendants would reign on the throne of his kingdom forever (2 Samuel 7:12-13). As explained above, Joseph was excluded from being the genetic father of the future king of Israel.
It was impossible to fulfill the requirements of both curse and promise by natural means. One man had to be both heir to and offspring of David, without being the genetic descendant of Jehoiakim. This problem required a divine solution.

The Solution
God created a solution through the miracle of the virgin birth. Although Joseph was one of Jehoiakim's offspring (through Solomon), Mary was not. She was a descendant of Nathan, one of David's other sons (Luke 3:31). God's promise to David was fulfilled because Mary was the biological parent of Jesus.
The virgin birth also addressed the curse God had pronounced upon Jehoiakim. Kingship was an inherited right. By Joseph, Jesus inherited a legal claim to the throne of David. However, he was exempt from the curse of Jehoiakim because Joseph was not his genetic father.
So the miracle of the virgin birth accomplished God's will in two ways. First, it granted Jesus a legal claim to the throne of David. And second, it maintained the integrity of the curse God had pronounced upon Jehoiakim. Indeed, Jesus was not one of Jehoiakim's offspring.

All the arguments presented by the 'Rabbi' are baffling, as they are not founded in scripture, rather, Malice of Intent.

Malice of Intent is a principle foundation of Fraud, an ugly aspect of Carnal Humans character.

The Messiah would have had to come before the Second Temple was destroyed. Furthermore the prophecy of rebuilding the walls in turbulent times provides a precise chronological 'Clock' as to Messiahs arrival, on a Donkey in Yerushalayim.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy

More than 300 prophecies from the Tanach[ot] were fulfilled.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/genealogy

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/jeconiah

Historocity:

http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.html

Are you familiar with this Apologetics Site?

It will aide the Bivlical Critics to raise their arguments from the Trailerpark Scholarships Level they currently produce>http://www.tektonics.org/

And this Site covers the full restoration of Both Houses of Israel: Which is currently occuring.

http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/

I have noticed the OP article spread all over the 'Net, with different 'Rabbis' cited. hmm

The Tribe of Judah is but one of the Twelve Tribes, and very often they have been wrong.

Also the Sceptre has departed from Judah to Gad, and the Levitical Priesthood is now second echalon, below the Priesthood of Melekh Tzedekh!
http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=13&type=12

[uncia]

The messiah must be a descendant of Solomon.
Descendant of David, yes. Solomon, no. God made a covenant with Solomon regarding the throne, we are led to believe in Chronicles, but it was revoked for obvious reasons. Once revoked, that was the end of it, as far as Solomon was concerned. The covenant with David himself still stood.

[kasalt]

I'd like to see the credentials of this "Rabbi"

Be my guest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shraga_Simmons

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Thank You, this is for you. :)

http://bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf

The Orthodox Rabbinical denial of Yahshua haMashiach is 2,000 years old. Back then, Yahshuas mere presence was problamatical for the Orthodox Rabbinate.

They feared He would arouse conflict between the Hebrew Population and their Roman Occupiers, perhaps incite revolt that would lead to the Hebrews destruction.

They feared He would upset their petty/carnal 'Locus of Perceived Power.

Much of which came to pass about 70 CE and Later around 150 CE.

It is quite telling that His original Followers, Apostles and Disciples were for the most part Orthodox Hebrews: Torah Conscious and Torah Observant.

Hardly the 'type' to be duped by a 'Pretender to the Throne'.

The Apostle Shaul/paul; had been 'Groomed' since childhood to become the Cohan haGadol/High Priest of Judea. He was Tutored by Gamiliel for many, many years and was in fact a Pharisic Rabbi.

What do you make of Matthew 15:24? :confused:

A pivotal verse of great importance.

I say: We have fully and successfully refuted and rebuked the 'Rabbis' Fog Job.

What say you? :confused:

What I have informed you of in prior Posts is the Current Sit-Rep.

Both the Orthodox Jews and the Christians are partially blinded.

The Orthodox Jews will become Messiah Conscious, and expunge themselves of Pagan Doctrines, and likewise, the Christians will become Torah Conscious and Observant and expunge their Pagan Doctrines.

What is your understanding of:

Yahwehs Plan?

How many years are allotted to accomplish said Plan?

The Divine Council/Heavenly Court/the Assembly of the gods?

Yahshua haMasiach?

the Ruach haKodesh? (YHWHS Holy, Set Apart Spirit)


and a Super Double Happy :) :) Bonus Link!! Wheeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

[kasalt]

Hi, this may help:


http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_faith.htm

Incidentally, Snoops, that "helpful" article you linked to was written by none other than Rabbi Shraga Simmons--the same rabbi who you accuse of having "Malice of Intent" for writing the article in the original post.

P.S.: I am working on replies to your other posts...

[thetonic]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50469

[danceswithbunnies]

I can almost guarantee that no one here is going to see the humor of the following..

The original question seems to implicitly assume that by "believe in Jesus" the author is meaning "belief" in terms of Messiah?
Or "belief" in terms of Jesus' divinity?
Probably both.

If both then clearly, jews do not believe in jesus because then they would be "christians"

(never mind.. i have a bizarre sense of humor please continue)

[kasalt]

I can almost guarantee that no one here is going to see the humor of the following..

...jews do not believe in jesus because then they would be "christians"

Your point does not require a sense of humour so much as it requires common sense.

In fact, I had to reiterate that point already in this thread, which I did in post #20. Here's the link:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1006699&postcount=20

The Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 1989 that belief in Jesus as the messiah "constituted another religion" -- a religion that is separate and apart from Judaism. Hence, whenever I refer to "Jews" (using no further qualifiers), I am referring by default to people who do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

hi kasalt; That article was in Context of Torah Examination. On that point I agree with him. He loses power with an admission of Messianic Authority to Yahshua.

Face it: according to many Prophecies, The Moshiach would have had to come before the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.


Your Chassidic pals in Brooklyn thought their Rabbi Schneeerson was Moshiac in the 1990s.

Inexplicable.

Like the Mormons claim of a Third Private Revelation.

Both Positions: Non-Messiah, and third book of scriptures are scripturally non supported.

It is very interesting how much 'weight' and 'authority' you grant the Orthodox Rabbinate.

This is the issue: with the Advent of Yahshua haMashiach, the Rabbinate lost its perceived temporal power, along with the perceived power of the Levitical Priesthood becoming second echalon to the Priesthood of the Order of Melekh Tsedekh.



Argue the evidence I provided, if you can.

The Rabbis wrong on this issue.

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=13&type=12

[kasalt]

(One of the most important Old Testament quotes used by Christians to support the claim that Jesus is the Messiah is Psalm 110:1. In fact, we are told in the Gospel of Matthew that when Jesus cited this verse to the Pharisees, "No one was able to answer him a word, neither did any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

In reply, Rabbi Tovia Singer wrote the following article which addresses the claim that Psalm 110:1 is a messianic prophecy that refers to Jesus Christ.)

Source: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/psalm110.html

"The Lord Said to My Lord. . . ." To Whom Was the Lord Speaking in Psalm 110:1?

by Rabbi Tovia Singer

Psalm 110 represents one of the New Testament's most stunning, yet clever mistranslations of the Jewish scriptures. Moreover, the confusion created by the Christianization of this verse was further perpetuated and promulgated by numerous Christian translators of the Bible as well. As you will soon see, some Christian translators, to their credit, refrain from rewriting this text in Psalm 110.

The story of the church's tampering with Psalm 110 is so old that it begins in the Christian canon itself. In the Gospels we find the church's first use of Psalm 110, and it begins with a question. In Matthew 22:41-44 Matthew's Jesus turns to the Pharisees and asks them,What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?
(The question in laymen's terms is, "Of whom is the messiah supposed to be a descendant?")They said to him, "The son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the spirit call him 'Lord,' saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool"?' If David then called him Lord, how is he his son?" No one was able to answer him a word, neither did any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Although the above conversation could never have occurred, I am certain this narrative has been replayed over and over again in the imagination of countless Christians for nearly 1,900 years.

It's an inspiring story to the Christian believer. Jesus really showed those Pharisees how little they knew! Yet, this is precisely why this story could never have transpired. No Jew who had even a superficial knowledge of the Jewish scriptures would have ever found Jesus' argument compelling, let alone a conversation stopper. The depth of knowledge that the Pharisees possessed of Tanach was astounding.

Let's take a closer look at the original verse from which Matthew's Jesus quoted so that you have a sense of how the original Hebrew text was masked. The New American Standard Bible (NASB), one of the most widely read Christian Bibles in use today, translates Psalm 110:1 in the following manner,The Lord said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet."
It appears from the NASB translation that the "Lord," which is God, "said unto to my Lord" -- who missionaries would have you believe is Jesus (David's "Lord") -- "Sit thou on my right hand, till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet."

Is the above verse speaking about Jesus? Not at all, yet look at the first word "Lord" in the verse. Now look at the second word "Lord" (they are only three words apart). Did you notice any difference between them? You didn't because the Christian translator carefully masked what it actually says in the text of the original Hebrew.

Although the two English words in the NASB translation are carefully made to appear identical, in the original Hebrew text they are entirely different. Whereas the first word "Lord" in the Hebrew is a correct translation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), the ineffable name of God, the second word "Lord" is a complete and deliberate mistranslation of the text. The second word "Lord" in the verse is an appalling translation of the Hebrew word (pronounced ladonee). The correct translation of ladonee is "to my master" or "to my lord." The Hebrew word adonee never refers to God anywhere in the Bible. It is only used for the profane, never the sacred. That is to say, God, the Creator of the universe, is never called adonee in the Bible. There are many words reserved for God in the Bible; adonee, however, is not one of them.

To illustrate this, let's look for a completely different place in the Bible where the exact same Hebrew word appears and find out how the same New American Standard Bible translates it there.

For example, we find the same word, (ladonee), used in the following two verses which have been translated by the same New American Standard Bible where the identical word is used as in Psalm 110:Then he and the men who were with him ate and drank and spent the night. When they arose in the morning, he said, "Send me away to my master (ladonee)." (Genesis 24:54, New American Standard Bible)
He also commanded them saying, "Thus you shall say to my lord (ladonee) Esau, 'Thus says your servant Jacob, "I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed until now." ' " (Genesis 32:4, New American Standard Bible)
The Hebrew word ladonee used in the above two verses is referring to Abraham and Esau, respectively. Notice that the Hebrew word used in both verses is identical to the Hebrew word in Psalm 110:1. Why did the New American Standard Bible translate ladonee correctly in Genesis 24:54 as "to my master," or in Genesis 32:4 as "to my lord," yet, for some reason, in Psalm 110:1 mistranslate it as "Lord"?

The answer is obvious. Both Genesis 24:54 and Genesis 32:4 are not texts used by the church to "prove" Jesus from the Jewish scriptures and therefore they had no reason to tamper with them. Psalm 110:1, on the other hand, is a verse that is flaunted by the New Testament and its missionaries as a verse that evangelicals insist "unquestionably points only to Jesus," and it therefore was deliberately mistranslated.

Some Christian translations are more transparent in their rendering of Psalm 110 than the New American Standard Bible. For example, the King James Version and a few other Bibles still render the second "Lord" as if it were sacred; however, they translate the first "LORD" in upper case. This is a helpful hint to the keen observer that there is a distinction between them. Of course, it's up to the curious Bible student to then look up the second "Lord" in a Hebrew Bible. Only such a deliberate and thorough investigation would uncover how the text was doctored.

It should be noted that while many Christian translators indulge in this manipulation of Psalm 110:1, some do not. Numerous modern Christian Bibles have corrected Matthew's mistranslation. For example, the Revised Standard Version and the New English Bible correctly render the Hebrew word ladonee as "to my lord," in Psalm 110:1, indicating that it is not speaking of God.

As mentioned above, this tampering with Psalm 110:1 began long ago in the Christian Bible itself. The Christian translators, who would later also mistranslate this verse, simply followed in the footsteps of the author of the first Gospel. If we look at the original Greek of Matthew 22:44 we find the same doctoring of the text in later Christian translations of the Book of Psalms. When Matthew has Jesus quote Psalm 110:1 to the Pharisees, the identical Greek word kurios (pronounced koo-re-os) is used both times the word "Lord" appears in Matthew 22:44.

Finally, it is essential that I explain the meaning of Psalm 110:1. Of whom is this Psalm really speaking? To whom are the words "my master" or "my lord" referring?

The Psalm begins with the opening Hebrew words "Mizmor l'David." The word "Mizmor" means "a song," and thus the opening phrase of this Psalm is, "A Song of David." In fact, the word Psalms comes from the Greek word psalmos, which means "a song." This is unknown to many Bible readers.

Why would King David be writing these songs? For whom was he writing them? By whom were they to be sung? With these questions in mind, we can begin to understand the intent of Psalm 110.

One of the great disappointments in King David's illustrious life occurred when God refused his request to build the first Temple in Jerusalem. Although David's son Solomon undertook that task and eventually constructed the first Temple, David's connection to it was significant.

For example, David founded the city of Jerusalem, the city where the Temple was built. In fact, both the city and the Temple were called after him, the City and Temple of David. Moreover, he made preparations for the building of the Temple, and even arranged for the Temple service (II Samuel 7; I Chronicles 14-17, 22-26). This is where the Book of Psalms played its central role. King David was a faithful servant of God who possessed extraordinary skills as a teacher, musician, and poet. In fact, King David authored most of the Book of Psalms. The original purpose for which King David composed the Book of Psalms was for the Levites to sing them in the Temple. The Levites would stand on a platform and joyfully chant these spiritually exhilarating Psalms to an inspired people. King David composed Psalm 110 for liturgical recitation by the Levites in the Temple years after his death. Therefore, the Levites would read this lyric,The Lord [God] said to my master [King David] "Sit thou at my right hand . . . ."
For the church, however, the Psalmist's original intent was superseded by its interest in Christianizing this verse. Thus, the opening verse in Psalm 110 was altered in order to paint Jesus into the Jewish scriptures.

Here is some advice. The only way to recognize such rampant Christian tampering of the Bible is to be able to read it in the original, without the aid of the Christian translator. Therefore, give your children a good Jewish education.

Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer

[kasalt]

He is: Shiloh

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=21&type=12

Rebuttal courtesy of the "Jews for Judaism" website:

http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=360

Written by Gerald Segal

The text of Genesis 49:10, "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him shall be the obedience of peoples," appears to say that a Jewish sovereign authority will end, following the coming of the Messiah. Since the termination of Jewish self-government occurred in 70 C.E. does this imply that the Messiah came prior to this time?

Answer: Christians often use this verse as a prooftext for their messianic claims. But if this text is taken to mean that the scepter shall not depart from Judah until the Messiah comes, as the Christians assert, we are faced with an insoluble historical inaccuracy. The last king from the tribe of Judah, Zedekiah, was taken captive about 586 B.C.E. Following the return to Zion from the Babylonian exile, the Jews were continually subject to foreign domination--Persian, Greek, Roman--with only a brief interlude of independence during the Maccabean period (165 B.C.E. to 63 B.C.E.), whose rulers were members of the tribe of Levi. Thus, there was a period of some six hundred years, prior to the birth of Jesus, during which the scepter of leadership had departed from the tribe of Judah.

In view of this incontrovertible fact, we are compelled to interpret the verse under discussion somewhat differently from the reinterpretation imposed upon it by Christian theology. What is meant by the phrase "the scepter shall not depart" is that the right to the scepter of leadership shall always remain within the tribe of Judah, regardless of who is actually exercising authority over Israel at any given time. What is meant by the phrase "until Shiloh comes" is not that at this time the scepter of leadership will depart from Judah, but, on the contrary, from that time on, the scepter will remain in actuality within the tribe of Judah.

The adverb 'ad ("until") is used in a similar sense in a number of instances; for example: "For I will not leave you until I have done that which I have spoken to you" (Genesis 28:15), and "No man shall be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them" (Deuteronomy 7:24). Did God leave Jacob after doing all that He promised him? Were the enemies of Israel who were killed able to stand after they were destroyed?

Even after the Messiah comes the scepter will still belong to Judah. The right to the scepter will never depart from Judah until the Messiah comes, at which time his scepter will be wielded over all nations (Isaiah 11); up to that time it was wielded over Israel alone. That this Messiah is not Jesus can best be seen from the investigation of the various messianic claims made by Christians on his behalf. As for Genesis 49:10, there is nothing in it to suggest that it applies to Jesus.

[kasalt]

Quoted from "The Real Messiah? A Jewish Response to Missionaries", pp. 27-32, Source url: http://jewsforjudaism.org/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=2&Itemid=47

WAS JESUS THE MESSIAH? LET’S EXAMINE THE FACTS

By Pinchas Stolper

The Missionaries claim that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies pertaining to the Messiah. The truth, however, is that he did not fulfill even one of the important prophecies. All the things that he fulfilled were in reality quite trivial.

If Christians merely believed that Jesus was their messiah, this belief would be of little concern to us as Jews. Their claim, however, is not that he is the Christian Messiah, but our Messiah, the Messiah of the Jews, the Messiah foretold by the Jewish Prophets. Christians then attempt to prove this belief by quoting our Bible.

Certain Christian missionary groups have now set up a front organization called “Jews for Jesus,” through which they entice naive Jews to Christianity with an old and discredited argument. “Don’t become a Christian,” they will argue, “remain a Jew--however, while you remain a loyal Jew, accept Jesus as your “Messiah.”

In view of the confusion created by the many false claims of missionary groups, Jews must be armed with the facts to substantiate our conviction that everything Christians claim for Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is false.

The following few “items” will point out some of the glaring discrepancies and inconsistencies in the missionaries’ arguments:

Item: The Jewish Messiah is to be a human being born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth, as the Christians claim.

Nowhere does our Bible say that the Messiah would be a god or G-d-like. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d alone is to be worshiped, not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the Messiah himself.

Nowhere does the Bible predict that the Messiah will be born to a virgin. In fact, virgins never give birth anywhere in the Bible. This idea is to be found only in pagan mythology. To the Jewish mind, the very idea that G-d would plant a seed in a woman is unnecessary and unnatural. After all,—what is accomplished by this claim? What positive purpose does it serve? The claim that Mary did not have natural relations with her husband must have made the Jews of that time suspect her of wrongdoing.

The New Testament (the Christian Bible) admits as much when it says (Matthew 1,19), “Then Joseph her (Mary’s) husband, being a just man, and not willing to shame her in public, decided to divorce her quietly.” The whole idea of virgin birth serves no purpose, except to attract pagans to Christianity.

Item: The Jewish Messiah is expected to return the Jews to their land.

Item: The true Messiah is to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

Item: The Jewish Bible says that the Messiah will redeem Israel. In the case of Jesus, the very opposite took place. Not long after his death, the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900 year long night of persecution -- largely at the hands of the followers of this self-styled “Messiah”!

Item: The Prophets in the Bible foretold (Isaiah 45 and Zafania 3) that when the Messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge and worship the one true G-d. “The knowledge of G-d will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the seas” (Isaiah 11:9). Nothing of this nature took place following the death of Jesus. On the contrary, Islam developed and became the religion of the Arabs and many other nations, Christianity broke up into many conflicting sects which were constantly at war with each other, and a large part of the world continued to worship idols. Even today the world is far from the worship of one G-d.

Item: When the true Messiah comes, his influence will extend over all peoples who will worship G-d at the Temple in Jerusalem. The Prophet says, “For My House will become the House of Prayer for all the Nations.” This has obviously not yet taken place, and, therefore, the Messiah has not yet come.

Item: During the time of the Messiah a new spirit will rule the world, and man will cease committing sins and crimes; this will especially apply to the Jews. The Torah (in Deuteronomy 30,6) says that “G-d will circumcise your heart and the heart of your children to love G-d.” The Prophets taught: “And your people are all righteous, they will inherit the earth forever.” (Isaiah 60, 21); “In that day I will seek the sins of Israel and there will be none.” (Jeremiah 50,20); “I will give you a new heart and a new spirit—and you will obey my laws and commandments and do them.” (Ezekiel 36,21). Soon after the time of Jesus, ignorance of G-d and even ignorance of science and philosophy filled the earth, as the “Dark Ages” overtook the world.

Item: The true Messiah is to reign as King of the Jews. Jesus’ career as described in the New Testament lasted all of three years, at the end of which he was crucified by the Romans as a common criminal. He never functioned as anything but a wandering preacher and “faith healer;” certainly, he held no official position or exercised any rule of any kind.

Item: During the time of the Messiah, prophecy will return to the Jewish people and the presence of G-d will dwell amongst us. (Ezekiel 37:27) “And after that I will pour my spirit on all of mankind and your sons and daughters will prophesy.” These predictions, too, are yet to be fulfilled.

Item: One of the Messiah’s major tasks is to bring peace to the entire world. In the time of the Messiah, there are to be no more wars, and the manufacture of arms will cease. The Prophet Isaiah (2,4) says, “And they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” Yet, Christian nations are very war-like, and wars have been going on almost non-stop since the time of Jesus up to and including today.

Item: The New Testament itself claims that the prophecies concerning the Messiah were to be realized in Jesus’ own generation. Mark 13:30 clearly says, “Truthfully I say unto you that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.” In Matthew 4, Jesus is quoted as saying that “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” 2,000 years have passed and still nothing has been accomplished.

Item: Nowhere does the Jewish Bible say that the Messiah would come once, be killed, and return again in a “second coming.” The idea of a second coming is a pure rationalization of Jesus’ failure to function in any way as a messiah, or to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Torah or the Prophets. The idea is purely a Christian invention, with no foundation in the Bible.

Item: The Bible says that the Messiah would be descended in a direct line from King David. However, if G-d was Jesus’ “father,” is it not somewhat ridiculous to claim that he is descended from King David on his father’s side?

Item: Why do some Missionaries insist on distorting the meaning of the words of the prophets in order to substantiate their claims? (An example: the Hebrew term in Isaiah “almah” which means a “young woman” is mistranslated as “virgin.”) Honest Christian scholars now acknowledge that this is “a pious fraud” and now (see the new Protestant “Revised Standard Version” of the Bible) translate the word correctly. This is but one of many mistranslations or forced translations.

Item: While on the cross Jesus is quoted as saying, “Forgive them Father, for they (the Jews) know not what they do.” Why do some Christians insist on persecuting the Jews if Jesus himself gave instructions to forgive them? But further—if his rising from the dead was so crucial to demonstrate who he was, why did this take place in secret and not in the presence of his “thousands” of devotees?

Item: Jesus claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses: “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law (Torah) and the Prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.” (Matthew 5). Later on, he himself abrogated some of the laws, while his followers eventually abolished or changed nearly all of them.

However, the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished. And even the Christians acknowledge that the Jewish Bible is the word of G-d. If the Torah is eternal and Jesus himself claims to have no intention of abolishing or changing it, why do the Christians celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday when G-d clearly calls the Saturday-Sabbath an Eternal Covenant? Why do Christians eat pig when the Torah forbids it? What reason can Christians give for not celebrating Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur which are clearly spelled out in the Torah? This same argument applies to hundreds of other Torah laws that are ignored by Christians.

On the other hand, Christmas and Easter are not mentioned in either the Jewish Bible or the Christian “New Testament,”—these festivals are pagan in origin, adapted for Christian use. But Pesach, Sukkos and Shavuos are clearly spoken of in the Bible. On top of which, Jesus nowhere requests that the Biblical festivals no longer be observed.

Item: Christians teach the philosophy of “turning the other cheek” and “loving your enemy.” Do you know of any Christian nations that live by this impractical ethic, or even take it seriously?

Item: The many Christian statements about G-d being “Love” have been borrowed from the Jewish Bible and the Jewish religion. Among many such quotations from our Torah are: “Love thy neighbor as thyself”; “Love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt”; “And you shall love the L-rd thy G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

If G-d is “Love,” how can Christians explain the silence and indifference of the Church and most Christian nations while six million Jews were being gassed and burned by the Germans? Why the stone-like silence during the Six Day War? Where was Christian love during the Spanish Inquisition and the hundreds of pogroms inspired by priests and monks?

Item: Judaism believes that G-d is eternal, above and beyond time. G-d cannot be born, He cannot die, He cannot suffer, He cannot “become flesh”, nor can He be divided into sections. (“Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”) These are pagan notions. Certainly no “G-d” or “Son of G-d” could have called out on the cross, as Jesus is supposed to have said, “My G-d, my G-d, why have you abandoned me?”

Item: If Jesus was really the Messiah, why does the New Testament admit that all the rabbis of the time, without one exception, rejected his claim? Why was there not one man of learning, nor one prominent leader who accepted him?

Item: If Jesus was the Messiah, why did the overwhelming majority of his own people, the Jews living at that time, reject him? Why did his followers consist of a handful of people, almost all of whom were poorly educated? Why did his own family turn against him?

Who was in a position to judge if he was or was not the Messiah--his own people, who anxiously awaited the arrival of the Messiah, or pagan peoples who had no understanding of what the concept really meant?

Item: Jesus commanded his disciples to preach to the Jews only and not to the Gentiles (Matthew 10), yet his disciples disobeyed him and did just the opposite. He clearly thought of himself as the Messiah of the Jews and of no one else. Yet, he was accepted by foreign nations and not by the Jews.

Item: If God has “rejected” the Jews for not “accepting Jesus” as Christians claim, why have we managed to survive 2,000 years of Christian persecution? How do Christians explain the miracle of Jewish survival? Why has G-d restored the city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel to His “rejected” people?

How do they explain the fact that the Jewish people has re-established its national life in its ancient homeland, and is in possession of the City of Jerusalem? These are living historic facts without parallel. Must not the Christians now acknowledge that the re-emergence of a Jewish State is indeed an unfolding and realization of Bible prophesy in our day? Does this not demonstrate that the many Biblical prophecies that speak of the return of the Jew to his land refers to the Jews and not to anyone else? (The Christians often refer to themselves as the “real Jews”—the “New Israel,” i.e. G-d chose them because the Jews rejected Jesus.) Isn’t this theological “slap in the face” the reason for the Pope’s refusal to recognize Israel, and for Christian silence during the Six Day War?

Item: The Prophets contain many prophecies concerning the end of days and the time of the Messiah that have not yet taken place. These will all take place when the Messiah comes.

Why do we need a Messiah in the first place? In order to teach the Torah to the world and to establish “The Kingdom of G-d on Earth.” If the Christians have done away with the laws of the Torah, if they no longer regard the Torah as valid, what is left to teach mankind? Nowhere does the Torah suggest that it is to be abolished by the Messiah. On the contrary, the Torah is eternal, and the purpose of the Messiah is to bring us to the day when all of the Jewish people will observe the Torah and all of mankind will acknowledge its truths.

Item: Nowhere does the Torah state that someone else’s death can bring forgiveness to a person’s sins. On the contrary, each man will be punished for his sins, and each man must repent for his sins alone. “The soul that sinneth it shall die”; “Sons will not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” The idea that someone else’s death 1,900 years ago can somehow bring forgiveness from G-d for my sins is absurd and unfounded. Each person must return to G-d, each sinner must change his own ways and seek G-d’s forgiveness.

Jews firmly believe that the Messiah will come. We believe that man will not self-destruct, that we will not disappear in a gigantic atomic blast. Man is basically good, and G-d’s Kingdom will be established. However, it is not enough to believe in G-d. Faith alone is not adequate--G-d demands deeds and action. G-d’s revelation on Mount Sinai demands obedience to the 613 commandments spelled out in the written and unwritten Torah. G-d wants discipline, loyalty, and practice; not pious statements and magical formulas. Jews wait for the day when “G-d will be King over all the earth and on that day He will be One and His name One.” (Zacharia 14,9).

[kasalt]

Why do you clame and coverup that todays jews really are bibical jews when they not? But White Gentile that has the stolen Jewish faith Judaism and the culture.

Religious Jews who are true racial Semites are even less inclined than their Europeanized counterparts to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Religious Jews who are true racial Semites are even less inclined than their Europeanized counterparts to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, so I'm not sure what your point is.


Except you do not have the authority or the credentials and bona-fides to make such a sweeping statement.

Fact is: Orthodox Judaism is diminishing, and Meesianic/Nazarene Judaism is increasing.

You have not responded to arguments of over 300 Prophecies fulfilled, or the Testimony of the Apostles and Disciples. The Geneologies, or the reversal of Johicans curses.

Nor the Socio/Political factors involved.



You are way behind the Curve.

As a Hindu, are you aware Bhudda Prophecied of the coming Messiah, and conceded the Oriental Paths, his included, Hinduism, Pantheism, etc.

Were ineffective? Virtually Meritless.

An objective observation of the society of India confirms this.

http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm

For a hindu, you spend a great deal of time trying to cast the Bible in a negative light. Do you consider this to be meritorious behaviour?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews

http://www.ketuvim.org/index.htm

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_home.html

What don't you understand about the Prophecies?

Either the Moshiach appeared before the Temple was destroyed, or He never existed.

What is your opinion of the Apostles opinions?

[kasalt]

You have not responded to arguments of over 300 Prophecies fulfilled, or the Testimony of the Apostles and Disciples.

Patience, give it time. I'm very busy...

This is from the "What Jews Believe (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/)" website:

1. Jews believe that one person cannot die for the sins of another person. HERE IS WHY! (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation01.html)

2. Jews believe that we do not need a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. HERE IS WHY! (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation02.html)

3. Jews believe that Jesus was not the messiah. HERE IS WHY! (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation03.html)

4. Jews believe that God hates the very idea of human sacrifice. HERE IS WHY! (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation04.html)

5. Jews believe that "Jews for Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and "Hebrew Christians" are no longer Jews, even if they were once Jews. HERE IS WHY! (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation09.html)

[eternal_spirit]

The oldest known Rothschild went by the name of Uri Feibesch who lived in the early 16th century. His descendants lived in the House of Red Shield. His great, great, great, great Grandson was Moses Bauer, who lived in the early 18th century
Several of their ancestors have been rabbis, so the occultism probably came in the form of Jewish Cabalism, Sabbatism, or Frankism. The House of Rothschild practices gnostic-satanism (the Rothschilds would probably not call themselves satanists, but by our standards they are, considering the sacrificial and spiritual worship involved). The truth is sometimes hard to tell. The stories the family weave are hard to distinguish from the truth. Myths are one of their best weapons, and a researcher must be wary

Mayer Amschel Bauer was a well-off coin trader in Frankfort. In front of his house hung a sign with the family’s symbol, which was a red hexagram. The hexagram (also known as the Seal of Solomon, the Magden David, or the Star of David) is very occultic. It is used today as the symbol of Israel, but It is not "Jewish.” In his excellent book THE SIX-POINTED STAR, O.J. Graham explains that the hexagram was used in the ancient mystery religions. It was the symbol of Moloch, Ashtoreth, and others. In fact, the hexagram was used to represent Saturn, which earlier newsletters have discussed. The six-pointed star is considered the equivalent of the Oriental Yin-and-Yang symbol, which is the Luciferian concept of balancing good and evil. The symbol appears to have been used by King Solomon when he apostasized, and was thereafter called the Seal of Solomon. Later on, Jewish Cabalism (or Occultism - different name, same game) picked it up as a magic symbol. Through the promotion of the Cabalists and the Zionists it has become the symbol of Jewish identity, although the occult circles know better.

The Bauer’s use of a hexagram as their family sign points to their involvement in Jewish Cabalism. In fact, the six-pointed star was so significant to them that Mayer Amschel Bauer decided to adopt it as his new name - Mayer Amschel Rothschild (Rot-schildt = Red Shield). I believe this was done to identify his family with occultism and the likes of Saturn or Ashtoreth (whom the Astors are named after). Mayer was sent to be a rabbi when he was 10, in 1753. A year and a half later his parents died. Mayer was brilliant and was encouraged by relatives to continue his studies but coin trading was his love. He left the school and when 13 was sent to Hanover to be an apprentice at the Illuminati Oppenheimer bank

It was Mayer Amschel Rothschild who convinced Weishaupt to wholly accept the Frankist Cabbalist doctrine and who afterwards financed the Illuminati. Rothschild had given Weishaupt the task of restablishin the old Alumbrado movement for the Cabbalist Jews

Theoretical Cabbal embraces only secret teachings about God and nature. But practical Cabbala (such as Frankism) attempts to affect earthly matters. It involves the use of amulets and magic numbers as well as the conjuring of evil spirits. Both the Talmud and Midrash contain Cabbalist information. ("Ancient Oriental and Jewish Secret Doctrines, Leipzig, 1805.)

Jakob Frank (1726-1791) was the most frightening phenomenon in Jewish history, according to the Jewish professor Gershom Scholem. His actions were totally immoral. Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman shows in his book "To Eliminate the Opiate" (New York, 1974) that there was a clear connection between Frankism and Weishaupt's Illuminism. The goal of the Frankists was to work in secret to establish Jewish world supremacy. Professor Scholem has clearly documented that they achived extensive political power.

Jakob Frank (actually Leibowicz) was born in 1726, in Polish Galicia. He officially converted to Catholicism but this was just camouflage. Jakob Frank was jailed in 1760 for continuing to teach the Cabbala (Zohar) and for practising secret Jewish rituals. In 173, the Russians attacked the region of Poland where Frank was held prisoner. He was released and moved to Offenbach (near Frankfurt am Main) in Germany where he began to lead a luxurious and wild life. His deeds were evil, his personality nefarous. This information comes from Scholem's books "Cabbala" (New York and Scarborough, 1974) "Sabbatai Zevi" (New Jersey, 1973) and "The Messianic Idea in Judaism" (New York, 1971).

Jakob Frank summed up his doctrine in his book "The Words of the Lord". He asserted that the creator God was not the same as the one who had revealed himself to the Israelites. He believed God was evil. Frank proclaimed himself the true Messiah. He vowed to not tell the truth, rejected every moral law, and declared that the only way to a new society was through a total destruction of the present civilization. Murder, rape, incest and drinking of blood were perfectly acceptable actions and necessary rituals.

Frank was one of those refractory Jews who worshipped devils. The extremist Jews were particularly fond of a devil called Sammael. (C.M. Ekbohrn, "100000 frammande ord", Stockholm, 1936, p. 1173.)

[eternal_spirit]

But my point was that these Ashkenazi Jews, that represent the world jewish community today. Are not jewish at all not, but infact they are white gentile europeans. But very few on this board are telling truth about this.



They are a mix of races, always where.

As William Guy Carr points out in Pawns in the Game, both Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange were funded by Jewish bankers. The English Revolution (1649) was the first in a series of revolutions designed to give them world hegemony. The establishment of the Bank of England by William in 1694 was the next crucial step. Behind the facade, England has been a "Jewish" state for over 300 years. (pp.20-24)

The Jewish banking families made it a practice to marry their female offspring to spendthrift European aristocrats. In Jewish law, the mixed offspring of a Jewish mother is Jewish. (The male heirs marry Jews although the Victor and Jacob Rothschild are exceptions .)

For example, in 1878 Hannah Rothschild married Lord Rosebery. who later became Prime Minister. In 1922 Louis Mountbatten, the uncle of Prince Philip and cousin of the Queen married the granddaughter of Jewish banker Ernest Cassel, one of the wealthiest men in the world. Winston Churchill's mother, Jenny (Jacobson) Jerome, was Jewish. By the beginning of the 1900s, there were very few English aristocrat families left that hadn't intermarried with Jews.

It was said that, when they visited the Continent, Europeans were surprised to see Jewish looking persons with English titles and accents.

According to L.G. Pine, the Editor of Burke's Peerage , Jews "have made themselves so closely connected with the British peerage that the two classes are unlikely to suffer loss which is not mutual. So closely linked are the Jews and the lords that a blow against the Jews in this country would not be possible without injuring the aristocracy also." (Tales of the British Aristocracy1957, p.219.)
If they aren't Jewish by intermarriage, many European aristocrats consider themselves descendents of Biblical Hebrews. The Hapsburgs are related by marriage to the Merovingians who claim to be descendents of the Tribe of Benjam.

The Queen of England may also be related to the Islamic prophet Mohammed apparantly it's well known to the Islamic Elite (afterall leaders and people in positions of power, inlcuding political and religious of Islamic countries also claim to be from Mohammed's seed.

[mephibosheth]

As a Hindu, are you aware Bhudda Prophecied of the coming Messiah, and conceded the Oriental Paths, his included, Hinduism, Pantheism, etc.

Were ineffective? Virtually Meritless.

An objective observation of the society of India confirms this.

http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm




What a bunch of crap.

Buddhism is not focussed on 'achieving merit' through works or money. What nonsense. All good deeds produce good merits, but all deeds, good and bad, are still producing karma, which is precisely what Buddhism strives to liberate beings from. A million lives of good deeds may get you to a heavenly realm, but never to final liberation from karma and the wheel of birth-death.


And as for the monk-back-from-the-dead (that nobody but some questionable Christian group called 'Asian Harvest' has ever heard of)...


http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/faq01.htm

What a laugh this nonsense is. For one thing, hell doesn't even exist yet, since the lake of fire isn't a place that souls are sent at death, and since only Satan and his cronies are sent there, and since even that only happens after the events described in Revelation. And that's according to the New Testament. Souls dying and immediately 'going to hell' is straight out of Dante, not the NT.

Meanwhile, I'd say kasalt's postings of Jewish beliefs seems to pretty clearly indicate that Christians have been busy deliberately mistranslating and misinterpreting the Hebrew scriptures to support their own wild magical claims. So what of that snoops?

---

LOL, bewareth the six-hundred and sixty-sixth post of the exterminator of shame, for therein was his avatar transformed, and shoneth there the new light of the golden boat.

[kasalt]

And as for the monk-back-from-the-dead (that nobody but some questionable Christian group called 'Asian Harvest' has ever heard of)...

http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/faq01.htm

The thing that confuses me is that this site appears to promote a brand of religion that Snoops has condemned in other threads as "pagan Xtianity".

Meanwhile, I'd say kasalt's postings of Jewish beliefs seems to pretty clearly indicate that Christians have been busy deliberately mistranslating and misinterpreting the Hebrew scriptures to support their own wild magical claims.

That certainly does appear to be the case, as hard as that is for even me to admit.

I should say that I began this thread entirely out of curiosity. Having been raised in the Christian faith (Roman Catholic upbringing), I wanted to understand directly from the Jews themselves why they do not believe that Jesus is their messiah. Since there are apparently no Jews on this forum to explain that for us, I decided I'd do the job myself by going to Jewish sites run by Jewish rabbis and posting their views here. So, I wish to reiterate once again that I am not posting my own personal views here. Unless I explicitly state otherwise, I am posting the views of Jewish leaders who represent the mainstream of Jewish religious thought.

Throughout the New Testament, we see that those Jews who did not accept the claim that Jesus was the messiah were condemned and demonized. Jesus himself is quoted as saying to the Jewish rabbis that the reason they did not believe in him was because they did not believe in the writings of Moses (John 5:46-47). In John 8:44, Jesus said of those Jews who did not believe in him that the devil was their father. The author of Revelation 2:9 called the Jewish synagogue "the synagogue of Satan".

Based on the information that has been presented thus far, I think that those condemnations were unwarranted. How could the Jews have been expected to believe that Jesus was the messiah when he had not fulfilled the messianic prophecies?

I realize this information is very challenging to some people. It shakes the very foundations of what they believe--not only about religion, but about their entire view of existence. This can be very difficult for some people to accept. In fact, even I am massively reevaluating my own understanding of Christianity and Judaism as this thread progresses.

Truth is the goal; truth and understanding.

[kasalt]

You have not responded to arguments of over 300 Prophecies fulfilled, or the Testimony of the Apostles and Disciples.

Tell you what, snoops...Pick out your top 10 prophecies that you think Jesus fulfilled and I'll see what I can find on them. Fair enough?

Regarding the testimony of the apostles and disciples, it has been estimated that up to 90% of the population during the time of Jesus was illiterate and uneducated, so most of the believers as well as many of the disciples would have come from this segment of the population, though at least several of the Apostles were literate and educated. We know that the rabbinate were much more representative of the literate class, and having been well educated in the Torah more than any other segment of the population, they rejected Jesus' messianic claims.

Secondly, did you know that St. Paul was never accepted as a true apostle by the Twelve? For example, Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Tim%20%201:15;&version=64;) that all the believers in Asia abandoned him. Note that he does not say that the believers in Asia abandoned the Christian faith, and he does not say that they abandoned the original Apostles of Jesus. Paul says only that the believers in Asia abandoned him. Ephesus was the capital of Asia (http://members.tripod.com/Romeartlover/Efeso.html), so therefore all of the believers in Ephesus abandoned him, and in Revelation 2:2, the author commends the Ephesians for having done so! Revelation 2:2 states: "I know...that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false."

See this video for a quick overview of the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_ZzuZwR9AFor further information regarding this topic, see these two webpages written by a Yahwist believer in Yahshua:

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/The_Law_stands.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

[QUOTE=mephibosheth;1021315]
Meanwhile, I'd say kasalt's postings of Jewish beliefs seems to pretty clearly indicate that Christians have been busy deliberately mistranslating and misinterpreting the Hebrew scriptures to support their own wild magical claims. So what of that snoops?
QUOTE]

Superficial & Shallow


Notice he has no concept of YHWHs Plan, which leads to the many deficiencies in Pagan Analysis.

If you are not familiar with the Forest, the individual Trees often dismay the viewer.

This is why I inquired of kasalt certain questions which would have illuminated his, and most pagans ignorance of the very important and underlying principles and precepts of the Plan.

A more insightful Analytical Statement would be: 'Less than 20% of Israelites do not believe in Jesus'.

The 'Jews' represent less than 20% of the Commonwealth of Israel. Only one of 12 Tribes.

80% of Israelites Believe in Jesus

How about that?

Anyone understand this?

Galatians 3:29 says, "If you belong to Messiah (Christ), then you are Avraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (Avrahamic Covenant)," NIV.



This is why I asked kasalt about his knowledge of YHWHs Plan and Matthew 15:24

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id59.html

The Israelites will recover their relationship with Yahueh. The following Scriptures all speak of their recovery: Jeremiah 3:11-13, 31:18-20, 33:7-8, 14, 23-26, 50:4-6, 19- 20; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24-31.

Yahushua Came To Save the House of Israel

Matthew 10:6 says, "Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel," NIV.

Matthew 10:6 says, " But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," KJV.

Matthew 10:6 says, " But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," The Scriptures.

The NIV translation has left out the important word "house" in the above verse. The word "house" indicates that Yahushua gave His twelve talmidim (disciples) specific instructions to seek out the descendants of the House of Israel (ten tribes) to bring them the Good News.

Matthew 15:24 states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel," NIV.

Matthew 15:24 states, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel," KJV.


Matthew 15:24 states, " I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" The Scriptures.

Again the NIV translation leaves out the word "house" which clarifies that an important aspect of Yahushua's earthly ministry was to see that the ten tribes of Israel that were in exile beyond the borders of Eretz Israel were given the opportunity to hear the Good News. Yahushua wanted them to know that their time of exile was over and that they could return to their Elohim (God).

Matthew 18:11 further says, "For the Son of Adam (Messiah) has come to save what was lost," The Scriptures. That which is "lost" refers to the ten tribes of Israel, and their descendants down through their generations. The Great Commission is a seek, find, save, and restore mission (Matthew 28:18-20). The key word in Matthew 28:19 is "nations" for that is where the tribes were to be found and are to be found even today.

"....To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings," James 1:1, NIV.

The House of Israel, Ten Tribes of Northern Israel Are Known By Other Names


Hosea 1:7-11 allows us to understand that Yahueh does not leave the House of Judah out of the allegory given to Hosea. At the time of Yahueh's revelation regarding the House of Israel's future, the House of Judah was momentarily safe from Yahueh's punishment for its sins. During the years of 721 B.C.E. to 701 B.C.E., Judah was saved twice from Assyrian invasion. However, Judah's punishment came in 586 B.C.E. when they were taken captive into Babylon. The House of Judah's destiny for many following generations would be exile among the Gentile nations, the Holocaust of WW II, and Arab tensions over their present existence as the State of Israel.

Judah has suffered greatly for its sins, but their future will be equal to the House of Israel one day in the near future:

1. The House of Judah will reap salvation enmasse when the full number of the House of Israel who are among the Gentile Nations come into salvation; so all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26).

2. The House of Judah will be taken out from the four corners of the earth to be regathered to the House of Israel (Isaiah 11:2).

3. The House of Judah will be enjoined to the House of Israel under one ruler, Yahushua HaMashiach in the Land of Israel (Jeremiah 3:18; Ezekiel 37:15-28; Hosea 1:11).

4. The Jewish portion of the saved remnant of Israel will be resurrected from out of the earth along with the other saints at the time of Messiah's Return (I Thessalonians 4:16-17).

All Israel Shall Be Saved -- Romans 11: 25-27 states, "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel (House of Judah) has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (House of Israel, the ten tribes) has come in (to salvation). And so all Israel (the twelve tribes) will be saved, as it is written:

'The deliverer (Yahushua HaMashiach) will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob (the twelve tribes). And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins,' " NIV. Romans 11:25b is better translated in the King James Bible which states, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel (House of Judah), until the fullness of the Gentiles (House of Israel among the Gentiles) be come in." The "hardening or blindness in part" means that the House of Judah, Jewish Israel, in general will not be open to the Good News until all of the House of Israel, the Israelites, are spiritually returned from their exile through the salvation work of the Son of Yahueh, Yahushua HaMashiach, and then the house of Judah will acknowledge that He is Messiah. Judah's "saved" numbers today are small in comparison to the "saved" Israelites due to the overwhelming numbers of descendants of the ten tribes fulfilling the Avrahamic Covenant, and the timing factor of Yahueh's salvation enmasse for the House of Judah.

Hostilities Between the Two Houses Will End

Isaiah 11:13 states, "Ephraim's (House of Israel's) jealousy will vanish, and Judah's enemies will be cut off; Ephraim (House of Israel) will not be jealous of Judah, nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim," NIV.

The Two Houses Will Unite to Recover Eretz Israel

Isaiah 11:10-16 speaks of the future time when the scattered people of both Houses of Israel will return to the Land of Israel as a united army to recover the Land from their enemies.

Obadiah 17-21 tells us that at a future time the House of Jacob, the twelve united tribes of Israel will destroy the descendants of Esau living on the Land. The House of Joseph (comprised of Manasseh and Ephraim) will literally burn out (perhaps bomb) the House of Esau.



As you may begin to perceive, Yahwehs Plan has incorporated functions and designs which most Pagan Analysts are unaware of, thus a superficial view of a most complex Plan is offered by the Pagan.

To Wit: 'Most Jews don't believe in Jesus'

I say: Kewl! what about the other 12 Tribes?

BhuddA KNEW. ;)

NO EXCUSE FOR KASALT TO BE SO FAR BEHIND THE CURVE, LIKEWISE ES, AND YOURSELF. LOL

You're one step ahead, or you're three steps behind.

when y'all get tired of me eatin' your lunch and takin y'all to school, you'll wise up and get informed beyond the usual superficial Pagan Analysis which is so prevelant in these districts.

When you're done with the first essay, read these:


http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=home&type=2

Class Dismissed! :D

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

[QUOTE]Tell you what, snoops...Pick out your top 10 prophecies that you think Jesus fulfilled and I'll see what I can find on them. Fair enough?


I'll do that.

Regarding the testimony of the apostles and disciples, it has been estimated that up to 90% of the population during the time of Jesus was illiterate and uneducated, so most of the believers as well as many of the disciples would have come from this segment of the population, though at least several of the Apostles were literate and educated.

This is Patently False Supposition, in our discussion of the Language of the Original Texts I provided the Tables of Literacy for the ANE.

The Hebrew Tribes were well over 50% Functionaly Literate.

The Pagans, notsomuch.



We know that the rabbinate were much more representative of the literate class, and having been well educated in the Torah more than any other segment of the population, they rejected Jesus' messianic claims.

Paul had been Tutored by Gamiliel to become High Priest of Judea, Matthew and Luke were professionals, and there are several commandments of Torah that command the children be taught to read and write. Each Family was to acquire their own Torah, and study together.

Secondly, did you know that St. Paul was never accepted as a true apostle by the Twelve? For example, Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Tim%20%201:15;&version=64;) that all the believers in Asia abandoned him. Note that he does not say that the believers in Asia abandoned the Christian faith, and he does not say that they abandoned the original Apostles of Jesus. Paul says only that the believers in Asia abandoned him. Ephesus was the capital of Asia (http://members.tripod.com/Romeartlover/Efeso.html), so therefore all of the believers in Ephesus abandoned him, and in Revelation 2:2, the author commends the Ephesians for having done so! Revelation 2:2 states: "I know...that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false."


lol, another misunderstanding of Scripture. To the Torah and the Testimony, if they do not speak, there is no light in them. that the test kasalt. Thats how you Pagans get busted all the time. lol

You don't elevate the Torah and Testimony.


The only acceptance of Shaul that matters is Yahshua, who personally converted Shaul. Shaul used to be the leader of a group of Persecuters of the Nazarenes(no xtians), so yeah, he wasn't the apostles favourite. This also shows how Pagans cannot discern between the Nazarenes, which are Yahshua, the Apostles and Disciples.

And Christians, which was already an Apostate group.

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id61.html

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id62.html


QUOTE]


Lame-A-Rama; as always kasalt

:rolleyes:

[kasalt]

"Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus as the Messiah"

Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2005/03/Why-Jews-Dont-Accept-Jesus.aspx

Jewish author David Klinghoffer has long been a thought-provoking voice on Beliefnet, commenting on issues ranging from Jewish holidays to politics to Mel Gibson's "Passion." His new book, "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus," traces the history of the debate between Christians and Jews over Jesus, from the first century to modern days. Beliefnet editors Rebecca Phillips and Laura Sheahen, approaching the book from a Jewish perspective and a Christian perspective, respectively, joined Klinghoffer for a conversation about the meaning of Isaiah 53, would-be messiahs in ancient Palestine, why Christian evangelism is healthy for Jews, and contemporary Jewish-Christian relations.

LS: What's the general attitude toward Jesus in Judaism?

The reality is that Judaism doesn't regard Jesus as particularly important. He's not a big subject. I wrote this book mainly for non-Jews, because to them the Jewish view of Jesus is a much bigger deal.

[Jewish radio personality] Michael Medved has made the point that this is the one thing that all Jews have in common--that we don't accept Jesus as our savior. That's the one and only thing on which all Jews agree. For many Jews, tragically, that's where their Judaism ends. For them, Judaism means we don't believe in Jesus. That's really a sad, impoverished version of Judaism.

LS: In your book, you talk about meeting a window washer in Seattle who is sincerely puzzled that Jews don't accept Jesus. Many Christians feel there's this overwhelming stack of evidence--usually connections made between the New Testament and the Hebrew scriptures--"proving" that Jesus is the promised Messiah. What should both Christians and Jews know when a Christian says, "clearly Isaiah shows that Jesus is the one"?

One thing to know is that for every Christian claim about, for example, Isaiah 53 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah53.html) [which describes a "suffering servant" who is persecuted to redeem the sins of his people], there's a Jewish response.

You can make an intelligent case from Isaiah 53 on behalf of Jesus. You can construe the Hebrew prophets as if they pointed forward to Jesus. But you can construe them to mean lots of different things. Shabbatai Zevi (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Zvi.html), the false messiah of the 17th century--his followers used those very same texts, including Isaiah 53, to prove that Shabbatai Zevi had to undergo suffering as the Messiah. You can use these texts to prove virtually anything.

LS: And your book says first-century Palestine was full of would-be Messiahs--a lot of people going around [like Jesus] with healing powers and other things.

Right. For Jews to give up the unique relationship with God that we have on the basis of a plausible, but by no means the only plausible, interpretation of scripture, is asking a lot.

There are one or two verses in the Hebrew Bible that some Christians will point to as showing that the laws were going to be transcended or discarded. But if you look at the context, those verses, to my mind, don't indicate that.

But even if you thought the Christian interpretation was plausible, it's only a couple of verses. To base a decision to give up Torah on a couple of ambiguous verses in Jeremiah (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Jeremiah23.html) is not, to me, a serious response for a Jew. For a Christian, who defines his spirituality through the lens of the New Testament, it's different. The Christian prioritizes the new over the old.

LS: So the Christian interpretation of the rebuilt temple being Jesus' resurrection--that kind of symbolic, metaphorical reading--just doesn't work in terms of Jewish beliefs about the Messiah? You're saying the actual temple will be there. It will be an actual stone building?

There's no question. In the last chapter of Ezekiel (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Ezekiel48.html), he describes a temple in great detail, down to exact measurements. The measurements are all wrong if it's supposed to be the First or Second Temple. So either he's describing something that's never going to happen or something that will happen. Christians and Jews who take prophecy seriously can't understand his very architectural description as a metaphor. It clearly hasn't happened yet.

RP: I had never realized that Jesus was censored from the Talmud. You write that all mentions of Jesus were removed in the 16th century to avoid Christian wrath. I wonder if we would have been saved a lot of interfaith relations problems later if he had been left in. How did that happen and why?

There are a handful of references to Jesus in the pre-censored text of the Talmud. I struggled with whether to bring this up in my book, because some of them are off-color and offensive, certainly to Christians.

RP: Offensive because of the way Jesus is depicted?

The Talmud described his being punished after death--in a way that is clearly meant to be a metaphor. The story is a vision of villains suffering in hell, and one is of Jesus in hell [for 70 years]. It's clearly a metaphor, because Jews don't believe people suffer in hell longer than a year.

LS: So Jews believe people suffer in hell for a year?

Up to a year, if you've committed evils and haven't repented. In Jewish terms, it's not possible for Jesus to have been in hell 70 years after he died. It's clearly meant as a metaphor.
Nevertheless, I struggled with whether to bring things like that up at all. Why hurt the feelings of Christians? In many ways, it's the most religious Christians who are our very best friends--because they are friends of Israel and are on our side morally. But I ultimately decided that you can't write an honest history of the Jewish-Christian debate about Jesus without bringing up some disturbing things. The truth is, anti-Semites are already aware of this.

[thetonic]

LS: So Jews believe people suffer in hell for a year?[/B]

Up to a year, if you've committed evils and haven't repented. In Jewish terms, it's not possible for Jesus to have been in hell 70 years after he died. It's clearly meant as a metaphor.
Nevertheless, I struggled with whether to bring things like that up at all. Why hurt the feelings of Christians? In many ways, it's the most religious Christians who are our very best friends--because they are friends of Israel and are on our side morally. But I ultimately decided that you can't write an honest history of the Jewish-Christian debate about Jesus without bringing up some disturbing things. The truth is, anti-Semites are already aware of this.

lol... what a load of bullshit

you think the gatekeepers of hell keep track of time?

especially for somebody who spreads the truth to the masses?

[kasalt]

Again, I'm just posting this as info without bias; make of it what you will.

Have you read the Authority of Babylonian Talmud (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10703) thread, to which I have also posted a considerable amount? If not, it's worth checking out.

[mephibosheth]

When you're done with the first essay, read these:

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=1





Obviously through modern science we know that our solar system has trillions of stars and of course that other solar systems have many more trillions.

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=1


And here I was under the apparently bogus impression that our solar system had only one star.

By the by, humans can, in theory, count all the stars in existence, UNLESS the universe is infinitely large (ie, uncountable). But, an infinitely large universe poses problems for a discrete origin in time. So most theories suggest a finite universe. And a finite universe means a finite number of stars, and thus, the possibility of actually counting them.



In verse 18 we see that from this earth filling seed, will come one (Messiah), through whom all of the earth's families will be blessed.


So, does the Messiah have a virgin birth or not in this view? Because in Christianity, Jesus is born merely by God asserting his will, and certainly not as any descendent of any human being, not the least of all since Jesus, being God, is and never was a human being himself.



The Ishmaelite, Arab and Muslim peoples are the physical descendants of Abraham alone, not of the promised heirs Isaac and Jacob. They do not, I repeat do not, meet the standards set down by Yahweh when He stated that the promise of physical multiplicity would come through Abraham


Nonsensical splitting heirs. Unless Isaac was borne of Abraham, ie, popped out of Abraham, neither he nor his descendents were from 'Abraham alone', but represented just another common mingling of genetics of Abraham and Sarah. Abraham gave exactly 50% for Isaac--the same as he did for Ishmael.



Either you are going to believe Yahshua and scores of other prophets or you are going to make up your own theology. He said I have come only for all the lost sheep of the House of Israel. This includes the Jews but also includes the other house of Israel, who are my brothers in the flesh. Of course Paul, Peter and others were sharing the gospel with Gentiles because where else are you going to find the seed of Ephraim, except among the Gentiles filling the globe.


Well, it's good to know that this marvelous 'plan' doesn't include all human beings, just those descendents of Ephraim. So Jesus wasn't speaking to me, afterall, if I'm not a genetic descendent of these lost tribes. So the Christian claim that Jesus 'died for YOUR sins' is actually very sectarian and specific and exclusionary.



The gospel is not merely a proclamation of personal salvation. It is a message of national restoration to Israel from a divided family which manifested itself in two still separate houses of Israel.


So the rest of the world can bugger off then, eh.



Since He is faithful you can rest assured that almost everyone on this planet has a drop if Israelite blood since Yahweh' blessing of physical multiplicity would fill the globe through Ephraim's banishment and subsequent intermarriage and assimilation. If the earth is full of Israelite blood how much room is there left for any other types of peoples without some Israelite blood?


A perfectly rhetorical question whose answer cannot be answered or tested in any way. I can see the jews of tomorrow being jew-genicists, meticulously screening folks to see who has 'a drop of Israelite blood in them' and making slaves of all the others.



regardless of who you think you are, you are Abraham's sperm!


LOL, I was feeling a little spunky today...now I know why..!

8)

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Again, I'm just posting this as info without bias; make of it what you will.


what a load of crap, you are amongst the most biased. :rolleyes: X infinity

you are a pantheist and you have equated the zionist jews with nazis. That is not unbiased.

As I stated in my first Post in thios thread: If the pagans can't paganize Jesus, they attempt to make Him go away.


And now you are frolicking in bed with them.


PRICELESS

This does confirm my suspicion as to your 'Profession', now howzabout a 'Price Sheet'. lulz

'Prices' are negotiable! lol

jeesh kasalt; how many times have the orthodox talmudic zionist rabbinate been wrong on important issues? :rolleyes:

lol

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

And here I was under the apparently bogus impression that our solar system had only one star.

By the by, humans can, in theory, count all the stars in existence, UNLESS the universe is infinitely large (ie, uncountable). But, an infinitely large universe poses problems for a discrete origin in time. So most theories suggest a finite universe. And a finite universe means a finite number of stars, and thus, the possibility of actually counting them.

So, does the Messiah have a virgin birth or not in this view? Because in Christianity, Jesus is born merely by God asserting his will, and certainly not as any descendent of any human being, not the least of all since Jesus, being God, is and never was a human being himself.

Nonsensical splitting heirs. Unless Isaac was borne of Abraham, ie, popped out of Abraham, neither he nor his descendents were from 'Abraham alone', but represented just another common mingling of genetics of Abraham and Sarah. Abraham gave exactly 50% for Isaac--the same as he did for Ishmael.

Well, it's good to know that this marvelous 'plan' doesn't include all human beings, just those descendents of Ephraim. So Jesus wasn't speaking to me, afterall, if I'm not a genetic descendent of these lost tribes. So the Christian claim that Jesus 'died for YOUR sins' is actually very sectarian and specific and exclusionary.

So the rest of the world can bugger off then, eh.
A perfectly rhetorical question whose answer cannot be answered or tested in any way. I can see the jews of tomorrow being jew-genicists, meticulously screening folks to see who has 'a drop of Israelite blood in them' and making slaves of all the others.

LOL, I was feeling a little spunky today...now I know why..!

8)


it all just sorta 'goes by ya', don't it. ;)

stay tuned.

It's all about the Torah & Testimony, from Beresheeth to Revelation.

All intertwined and interlocked.

[kasalt]

Paul had been Tutored by Gamiliel to become High Priest of Judea,

First of all, you aren't reading my posts very thoroughly. I clearly stated that some of the apostles were educated.

Secondly, there is an interesting contradiction between Paul and Gamaliel. We are told in the book of Acts 5:34-42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:34-42;&version=9;) that Gamaliel warned against condemning the Apostles "lest haply ye be found even to fight against God" (to use his words as the are found in the King James Version).

If Gamaliel warned against persecuting Christians, and Saul supposedly was a strict student who learned "at the feet of Gamaliel", how was it possible that Saul found himself murdering Christians? (See Acts 7:57-60 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:57-8:1;&version=9;) and 22:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2022:3-4;&version=9;))

[kasalt]

Yahushua Came To Save the House of Israel

Matthew 10:6 says, " But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," The Scriptures.

The NIV translation has left out the important word "house" in the above verse. The word "house" indicates that Yahushua gave His twelve disciples specific instructions to seek out the descendants of the House of Israel (ten tribes) to bring them the Good News.

Matthew 15:24 states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel," NIV.

Again the NIV translation leaves out the word "house" which clarifies that an important aspect of Yahushua's earthly ministry was to see that the ten tribes of Israel that were in exile beyond the borders of Eretz Israel were given the opportunity to hear the Good News. Yahushua wanted them to know that their time of exile was over and that they could return to their Elohim (God).


Okay, you've quoted Matthew 10:6, in which Jesus says to preach "only to the house of Israel." The problem is that the Samaritans were of the house of Israel, and yet in Matthew 10:5, Jesus says, "Don't go to the Samaritans"! But Samaria was the capital of Israel:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=109&letter=S

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

There are no contradictions in Scripture, the deficiency is your 'Carnal' lens, and deficient translations. Like your recent offering of the Anti-Nomian Paul, which is Pagan Wishful Thinking.

http://yahweh.com/booklets/Shaul/DoAway.htm

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id64.html

On ALL 4 Levels of Scriptural Interpretation, the Book is Solid, Monolithic.

The Tragedy is occuring on multiple levels.

The Skeptics are ignorant of important information, thus unable to perceive the Beautiful Information that is clearly availiable by merely reading the Scripture without Biases and Prejudices.

Beyond Prophetic Declarations, the Book of Yahweh 'Pictures' the Messiah to come using the lives of various precedent Patriarchs. Mosheh and Yahsheph, the Dreamer of Dreams.

This is actually doubling the criteria.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Mashiach_ben_Yosef/mashiach_ben_yosef.html

http://www.mashiyach.com/Downloads/mashiachbenyoseph.pdf


http://www.mashiyach.com/kingdom/why.htm
.......Y'shua's "crime" according to religions of his day was that he came in the Name of YHWH and spoke the truth in love. That's about as radical as it gets. He didn't condemn but he gave opportunity for all to make teshuva (turn to YHWH) and realize our full potential in him. Y'shua's love for people and his teaching about Justice and the Kingdom of Elohim broke down the religious ideas of his day, the hearts of those who heard him were pierced, we could not deny his Love and self sacrifice. Let's face it, most of us are too busy with other things to take time to "major in Love." How many people do you know have a career in Love? How many people do you know have a degree in giving? How many? How many treat everyone on earth like equals, they just love the souls of people regardless of religion or externals. How many religious people love or give without strings attached? Most religious people want another convert, many of them really don't give a crap about you unless you're one of them... part of their following or you've evidently got some money (do you hear what I'm saying).........

And here is something you do not seem to be aware of:

http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=26&l=32



And concerning the removal of the Scepter, the Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin, folio 24, states,

"A little more than 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, the power of pronouncing capital sentences was taken away from the Jews."

As it says in the Babylonian Talmud, chapter 24, folio 37,

"When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general consternation took possession of them, and they covered their heads with ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, and exclaimed: 'Woe unto us for the scepter has departed from Y'hudah (Judah) and the Messiah
has not come'."

This was proclaimed at the time of Yeshua's coming when they recognized that the scepter had departed; but rather than accept Yeshua as that Messiah, that stated, "and the Messiah has not come", thereby denying the infallibility of prophecy, and denying the writings of the sages.

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id47.html

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id63.html

[kasalt]

And concerning the removal of the Scepter, the Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin, folio 24, states,

"A little more than 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, the power of pronouncing capital sentences was taken away from the Jews."

As it says in the Babylonian Talmud, chapter 24, folio 37,

"When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general consternation took possession of them, and they covered their heads with ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, and exclaimed: 'Woe unto us for the scepter has departed from Y'hudah (Judah) and the Messiah
has not come'."

This was proclaimed at the time of Yeshua's coming when they recognized that the scepter had departed; but rather than accept Yeshua as that Messiah, that stated, "and the Messiah has not come", thereby denying the infallibility of prophecy, and denying the writings of the sages.

Wishful Thinking.

The scepter first departed from Judah in 586 BC, when the Babylonians conquered the Kingdom of Judah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah):
In 586 BCE, the Babyloníans, under king Nebuchadnezzar II, captured Jerusalem. The First Temple was destroyed as was the city of Jerusalem. To this day, the destruction is remembered by Jews on the 9th of Av, or Tisha B'Av.

Following this conquest, much of the population of Judah was deported from the land and dispersed throughout the Babylonian Empire, and the independent Kingdom of Judah came to an end.
Furthermore, if "the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death", then what were they doing killing Christians?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Listen to the Music:

A Revelatory Vision I had recently was like the opening moments of the Movie: 2001 A Space Odyssey

The Large Black Monolith was towering over a squirming mass of carnal primates shreiking, shaking bones and sticks and flinging poo at it.

Much like contemporary carnal societies reaction of the Beautiful Music of the Book of Yahweh.

It Towers over you, your finite intelligence simply cannot comprehend the scope and depth of Beauty and Wisdom that lays before you.

Instead. it frightens you, its smooth, black surface is reflective and mirrors you, you 'see yourself', your '/carnal Self' and its fugly!!! :eek:

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/newtestproof.htm

[QUOTE]...Historically, especially in these last days, counter missionaries have used two primary approaches in their attack on Yeshua's clear hold on the title "Messiah."

First, they forcefully present alternate interpretations of Messianic prophecy presented in the Tanakh (Old Testament), prophecies which Christianity uses to support Messianic fulfillment in Yeshua.
Secondly, and with increased regularity and hostility, they attempt to completely destroy the credibility of the New Testament. Often the primary targets are the writings of the apostle Sha'ul (Saul, or Paul). Do not be deceived! Anyone who attacks Paul's epistles IS a counter missionary and enemy of Yeshua the Messiah! Such people are false Messianics!
Counter missionaries have also often attempted to prove that the historic character, Yeshua, is a myth - that he never actually existed. However, because of the ease at which Yeshua can be proven to be a legitimate historical figure, many counter missionaries have abandoned that approach. I won't waste time on that issue here. Suffice it to say that even Rabbinic Judaism proves Yeshua existed without a believer in Yeshua ever having to utter a sound. Thus, history's most outspoken opponents of Yeshua prove in their own historic writings that Yeshua was (and is) real. I will present proof of this in another article. Yeshua was a real person, and anyone that thinks otherwise is hopelessly deluded...........

........So, since we, unlike counter missionaries, do not wish to push our sincere interpretations on them, we recognize that using the Tanakh as the primary source of proof for Yeshua's Messiahship results in a deadlocked situation. If this be the case, what is the key to unlock the deadlock?

That leads us to the second issue.

Second: The REAL reason behind Counter missionary (CoMi) efforts against the New Testament
Counter missionaries thrive on partial understanding and bias. They are particularly despicable in the way they use half truth, hand-picked biased "scholarship," and take advantage of a person's already faltering, questioning feelings towards Christianity or the New Testament. They also present biased history, choosing ONLY the "history" that supports their position while ignoring just as credible history that refutes them. They are loathsome deceivers.

What they do is equivalent to finding a couple of rotten apples in a barrel of apples and then using that minor "evidence" to prove the entire barrel is rotten. That is EXACTLY the tactic they use with ALL their arguments. They greatly extrapolate a few bits of evidence into alleged "proof" for their arguments. They use sparse circumstantial evidence, biased history, quotes from biased "scholars," etc. In short they "stack the deck" of "proof" to lead others into rejecting the New Testament completely, with their ultimate goal being rejection of Yeshua.......QUOTE]


:)

[kasalt]

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/newtestproof.htm


Funny thing about that link...I couldn't find any real substance in it, just a bunch of accusations with no proof presented.

I'm still waiting for you to present a list of 10 Old Testament prophecies which prove Jesus is the Messiah.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Funny thing about that link...I couldn't find any real substance in it, just a bunch of accusations with no proof presented.

I'm still waiting for you to present a list of 10 Old Testament prophecies which prove Jesus is the Messiah.

Funny thing, it wasn't offering 'Proofs', rather it clearly stated that the Tanach could neither Prove nor Disprove 'Messiah'.

Only provide Evidence.

It also reinforced my information that you have presented a Minority Opinion/Position,refuting your presumption that 'It is the Majority Position, when it is not. That the Orthodox Judaic Rabbinate is partially 'blind'.
remains to be the case. Likewise the majority of Christians.

Examine this. 456 citations of the Messiah in the Tanach, indexed to major Rabbinical writings.(no kabbala). Talmud, Midrash, Talkut...

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/edersheim9.htm

NOTE FROM TORAH OF MESSIAH WEBMASTER! I do not necessarily agree with the implicit understandings of the passages cited in this writing. I supply this for informational purposes only to show that counter missionaries - those teaching Yahshua is NOT Messiah or that promote Messianic meanings that make it difficult for Yahshua to be Messiah - are NOT adequately representing Judaic thought. Virtually all counter missionary groups present a limited understanding of passages that are messianic or potentially messianic. They never supply the COMPLETE listing of Judaic opinions. Instead, they promote the falsehood that their understanding - or modern Rabbinic Judaism's understanding - of various passages are the only "Judaic" interpretations. Such an implicit presentation is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. The FACT is, there were MANY sects of Judaism during the first century and they often held widely varying views, particularly with regard to Messiah. Unfortunately, almost all of these sects, with the exception of the Pharisees, were wiped out by the Romans or eventually died away. So, what Rabbinic Judaism presents is most certainly NOT the complete picture, and they know it! Since only one sect survived and that sect eventually evolved into modern Rabbinic Judaism, most Jews are often lead astray by their Rabbinic leaders by being shown limited and biased (against Yahshua the Messiah) opinions. The truth is that prior to the defeat of Israel by Rome in the second century, Judaism was a very pluralistic religion composed of numerous "denominations" (sects) that often held views different from what is presented today within Rabbinic Judaism and by counter missionaries that deceptively fail to present ALL the messianic views. I suggest to those in Rabbinic Judaism the same thing I suggest to Christians, DON'T BELIEVE ALL YOU ARE TOLD BY YOUR LEADERS!!! STUDY FOR YOURSELF!!

So as you, and everybody can see, the Orthodox Rabbinate Opinion is of a miniscule Minority.

Deserves to be heard, yet I find it to be so deficient in Reason and Analysis to embrace.

Rather, these are the descendants of those who sat in Judgement of Yahshua haMashiyach on the day of His betrayal, these of the descendants of the Rabbinate that Yahshua chastened and rebuked.

Today, as then, the Rabbinate is seeking to preserve its own Power Base/Cash Cow.

Carnality Rules/Truth be damned.

I used to think of the 12 Tribes as failures, then I realised they are the 'Tip of the Spear' in Yahwehs Plan.

Now I see them as inept.

1 Samuel 8


[COLOR="Indigo"]Rabbi Chija said, that Rabbi Jochanan said: All the prophets have only prophesied in regard of the days of the Messiah; but in regard to the world to come, eye has not seen, O God, beside Thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for Him (Is. lxiv. COLOR]

examine this Timeline:

http://www.tntrevealed.org/booklets.cfm?c=39&l=46

then read this:


http://www.torahofmessiah.com/messiahresume.html


And this:

http://hope-of-israel.org/judaism.htm
The Rabbis, one- to four-hundred years after the Messiah, did not dare discuss the origin of the traditional laws nor how the Pharisees came to teach without using the Scripture. These later Rabbis knew quite well where the traditional laws had come from, but they did not want the lay people to know that these laws, which had been falsely taught to the lay people as coming from Moses, were not originally from Moses at all. It would have been disastrous to Judaism to teach that the traditional laws were really not from Moses and that the commandments of the Pharisees were nothing more than the commandments of men, because THE WHOLE FOUNDATION OF JUDAISM rested on these fallacious laws.

Thus, among the 34 volumes of the English translation of the Talmud wherein are recorded these traditional laws, there is no mention whatever of how these traditional laws came to be accepted.

"The history of the development of the Mishnah-form REFLECTS UNFAVORABLY upon the TRADITIONAL CHARACTER of the Pharisaic teachings. THIS IS THE REASON FOR THE TALMUDIC SILENCE ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF THE MISHNAH-FORM" (Lauterbach, Rabbinic Essays, p. 248).

From this, we should have no difficulty in understanding why thousands of Jews were brought to the truth of Christianity in the First Century. They were told the truth about the laws of the Pharisees by the true ministers of Yeshua the Messiah. Once the Jews came to a knowledge of the truth in this matter, many of them abandoned the commandments of men for the truth of YEHOVAH God. This is one of the main reasons the Pharisees, and the later Jews, had such an abhorrence for Christianity. The acceptance of Christianity meant the rejection of the teachings of the Pharisees in Judaism, and a return to YEHOVAH God and His commandments.

[kasalt]

Funny thing, it wasn't offering 'Proofs', rather it clearly stated that the Tanach could neither Prove nor Disprove 'Messiah'.

Only provide Evidence.

What evidence?

As per usual, all I can see in your posts is a lot of bloviating with very little point to it other than to express your opinion, but your opinion isn't evidence.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

'The Proof of the Pudding is in the Eating'

;)

[kasalt]

That's not a phrase I haven't heard many times before, and it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.

Tell me something I haven't heard before and don't already know.

You haven't actually even tried to refute much of what I've posted on this thread, and that's because you can't refute facts.

I've given you facts, now you give me facts. Not opinions, not beliefs, not theories. I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

That's not a phrase I haven't heard many times before, and it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.
Tell me something I haven't heard before and don't already know.
You haven't actually even tried to refute much of what I've posted on this thread, and that's because you can't refute facts.
I've given you facts, now you give me facts. Not opinions, not beliefs, not theories. I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Everything I have ever Posted you did not 'Know Before'

I will take your mewlings as your: Concession :)

As always, I have provided a plethora of Facts.

It is you that have provided opinions.

Let the readers Judge for themselves.


'The Proof of the Pudding is in the Eating'

[kasalt]

Everything I have ever Posted you did not 'Know Before'

First you: Misrepresent what I Said, and Then you: Reply to your Misrepresentation of what I Said. That is a: 'Dishonest Tactic'.

I will take your mewlings as your: Concession

Wishful Thinking: which is: in your mind only. You snooze: you loose.

[kasalt]

http://bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf


According to this list you posted a link to, Zechariah 13:6 is a prophecy of the messiah, and this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus Christ:

Zechariah 13:6 written: 487 BC (Before Christ)
"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with
which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

Question: Do you agree that Zechariah 13:6 is a messianic prophecy, and that this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus Christ?

Yes, or no?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

lol :D


http://100prophecies.org/page3.htm


http://100prophecies.org/page2.htm

Do you have a better understanding of your original question now that I have Framed it in its Proper Perspective?

http://hope-of-israel.org/judaism.htm

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/PDFs/The%20King%20That%20Did%20It%208-18-07.pdf


Goal-Lets not look at this is a negative light, as warnings, as these verses usually
are presented; let’s look at it in a prophetic light and apply it only to Yahshua,
Yisrael’s only true righteous King.

Are you attempting to 'prove' Yahshua haMashiyach is not the Prophecied Messiah?

silly goose

lol

:D

[kasalt]

I'll take your non-reply as a "yes", especially since you linked to a list of messianic prophecies that included it.

From the "Hope for Israel" website: http://www.uhcg.org/Scriptures/wounds.htmlAsk almost any 'Christian' to read Zechariah 13:6 aloud and ask, "Who is this Scripture referring to?" They will look at you in shock and amazement and say, "Why this is obviously referring to 'Jesus Christ,' whose hands were pierced during his crucifixion!"

This verse from Zechariah is one of the most often misquoted texts used by 'Christian's to uphold their claim that 'Jesus' is the Messiah. Unfortunately for them, it is also one of the easiest to prove false.

A very popular method used by 'Christian's to attempt to prove any particular doctrine is to read an excerpt or part of a verse, usually completely out of context without any explanation to try to "prove" their point. This practice is called proof-texting.

The doctrine in question is the "Christian's" claim that 'Jesus Christ' was the Messiah of Israel. However, an examination of the entire thirteenth chapter of Zechariah is required in order to understand the storyflow of what is being stated. When the verses prior to verse 6 are read, the meaning of verse six becomes crystal clear.

We will begin by quoting the first six verses of Zechariah 13 in order to get an overview, and then examine each verse more closely: 1 "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for purification and for sprinkling.
2 "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith YHWH of hosts, That I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered; and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3 "And it shall come to pass that, when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begot him shall say unto him: 'Thou shalt not live, for thou speakest lies in the name of YHWH and his father and his mother that begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be brought to shame every one through his vision, when he prophesieth; neither shall they wear a hairy mantle to deceive;
5 "but he shall say: 'I am no prophet, I am a tiller of the ground; for I have been made a bondman from my youth.'
6 "And one shall say unto him: 'What are these wounds between thy hands?' Then he shall answer: 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zec. 13:1-6 JPSA 1917)
The general time setting of this prophecy is given in verse one. The clue is the phrase "in that day." In other examples where this phrase is used (Hosea 2:16-17), most serious students of the Bible understand "in that day" to refer generally to the time of the Messianic age. One significant event that will occur during this coming age of peace and perfection is that the knowledge and understanding "of who the One True Creator of Israel is" will saturate the entire earth (Hab. 2:14). This will be accompanied by the removal of false understanding and the wrongful worship of false gods. It will also mean that the priests and prophets of the false religions will essentially be out of a job.

This concept is expounded further in verse two by stating that names of false gods (idols) will be cut off out of the land. To be "cut off out of the land" means to be destroyed or consumed. The names of these false gods will not even be allowed to be spoken (Hosea 2:17). After a time, their memory will even be forgotten. The prophets of these false religions will also be removed along with the unclean spirits which cause abnormal human behavior.

The penalty for someone who tries to teach others about false gods is stated in verse three. If anyone attempts to sway others away from the Holy One of Israel, that person should be put to death by his own parents.

Verse four tells how very embarrassed and ashamed every prophet or teacher of the world's false religious systems will feel. The words "hairy mantle" possibly have some reference to prophet to Elijah.

The false teachers, in verse five, will deny they taught others to embrace a false and useless religion. Remember that all five verses here are referring to false prophets, i.e. teachers and proponents of a false religion. A religion that teaches men to worship any god other than the Holy One of Israel is a false religion. This brings us to verse six, the verse in question: 6 "And one shall say unto him: 'What are these wounds between thy hands?' Then he shall answer: 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zec. 13:6 JPSA1917)
First, who is the "him" that is being referred to here? It is the same "him" who in verse 5 claimed not to be a prophet, but a farmer. It is the same "him" in verse 4 who is ashamed to have taught a false religion and a false god to the people. It is the same "him" as in verse 3 who is in danger of being put to death by his parents for trying to sway others away from Israel's Holy One. It is the same "him" in verse two who was cut off from the land because of his abominable teachings. In other words, the "him" in verse six is a false prophet, a teacher of myths and fables which have deceived the people of the earth and who is to be given the label of false teacher in due time. Now I ask you, is this the 'Jesus Christ' portrayed in the New Testament?

Furthermore, "wounds in thine hands" is a mistranslation. The Hebrew word for "wounds" is "makkah:"Strong's (#H4347) and is more accurately translated "to be smitten or stricken," i.e. "beaten."

The word for hands is "yad:" (#H3027) and can also mean "between the hands, i.e. "the breast or back." So another way to understand this verse is, "Why have you been beaten on your back?"

The answer to this question is given in the last part of verse six: "...I was wounded in the house of my friends," for being a false teacher which will simply not be tolerated during the Messianic age.

When these verses are read in context, it becomes very clear that verse six is not a reference to 'Jesus Christ' at all. In fact, this verse is not even a Messianic verse for that matter. It is simply a description of the fate of those false teachers who have deceived people into believing in a false god.

When the so-called prophecies, of the Old Testament which seem to point to 'Jesus' as the Messiah of Israel, are examined in context and in the original Hebrew; they can usually be put to rest rather quickly.

[rwederfoort]

I my self thanks to the TALMUD of IMMANUEL, i understand why, but who are we to JUDGE them, what they think, ONLY our father in Heaven can Judge them for their actions.

We have to PRAY fpr them because they are BLIND,

http://www.geocities.com/esuimmanuel/index.html

Follow this link, and you would know the TRUTH,

Namaste

[kasalt]

I my self thanks to the TALMUD of IMMANUEL, i understand why...

I think I'll let forum member Cheeb do my replying to you for me:

Is This The Same Jmmanuel That Turns Up In UFO Contactee Billy Meieres "Stuff"...???

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8215/jmmabeam.gif

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6824/meiernavealca1zt0.jpg

Seen above, a shot of Billy Meier’s “weddingcake” craft, allegedly an extraterrestrial device. A strange appendage is circled in blue. What could it possibly be?

According to The Billy Meier case: more conclusive “smoking gun” proof of deception, that’s just the handle of a garbage can lid that can be found on Meier’s farm:

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5371/meiertampalacakl4.jpg

Read the full analysis for much more details. But maybe the best part is the “explanation” given by Meier (or his aliens) for why the lower part of an alleged alien craft looks exactly like a garbage can lid, complete with a handle. From Meier’s 254th Contact Report, November 28, 1995:

Ptaah: “. . . As far back as the 1920s we worked with flying devices you have named the ‘Wedding Cake Ship,’ … we endeavored to transmit all of the necessary data regarding the vehicles’ shape to terrestrial scientists, in the form of telepathic impulses, to assist them in developing flying disks on Earth … We thoroughly investigated the entire situation and discovered that the old, newly re-emerged drawings were used for the design and production of these receptacle covers. … This, then, is how the shape of the container covers came about, which, as I mentioned earlier, strikingly resemble the lower rim section and undercarriage on our flying devices.”

It’s more ridiculous than his excuses as to why his photos of the pretty Pleiadian girls were exactly like dancers from the Dean Martin show.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9426/ding8avq4.jpg

Photographing an American show on TV and claiming it was a real contact with aliens is also not much different from photographing a book illustration and claiming it was from a time travel trip. Compare the images below:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6176/meierdinosaurhoax2qhgjkao0.jpg


http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2605/iwanttobelievebillt.jpg

Not...!!!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I'll take your non-reply as a "yes", especially since you linked to a list of messianic prophecies that included it.
When the so-called prophecies, of the Old Testament which seem to point to 'Jesus' as the Messiah of Israel, are examined in context and in the original Hebrew; they can usually be put to rest rather quickly.
[/INDENT]

Notice how they cede that some of the Prophecies are True. You have to read more carefully kasalt. This is a major cause of your deficient reading comprehension.

kasalt, all these 500+/- Prophecies are 'debatable'. I do not cede authority in this matter to the Talmudic Zionist Orthodox Rabbinate as you do.

kasalt, I asked you: How often, many times has this selfsame Zionist Talmudic Orthodox Rabbinate been wrong on major issues?

I would say quite often. Matters both Biblical and secular.

Their opinion doesn't hold much weight with me personally.

There remains hundreds of Prophecies which Yahshua did fulfill.

So what is your point/agenda?

I informed you how scripture not only Prophecies Literally about Yahshua, but allegorically Pictures Yahshua as Messiah:
http://www.mashiyach.com/Downloads/mashiachbenyoseph.pdf

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I should say that I began this thread entirely out of curiosity. Having been raised in the Christian faith (Roman Catholic upbringing), I wanted to understand directly from the Jews themselves why they do not believe that Jesus is their messiah. Since there are apparently no Jews on this forum to explain that for us, I decided I'd do the job myself by going to Jewish sites run by Jewish rabbis and posting their views here. So, I wish to reiterate once again that I am not posting my own personal views here. Unless I explicitly state otherwise, I am posting the views of Jewish leaders who represent the mainstream of Jewish religious thought.

Throughout the New Testament, we see that those Jews who did not accept the claim that Jesus was the messiah were condemned and demonized. Jesus himself is quoted as saying to the Jewish rabbis that the reason they did not believe in him was because they did not believe in the writings of Moses (John 5:46-47). In John 8:44, Jesus said of those Jews who did not believe in him that the devil was their father. The author of Revelation 2:9 called the Jewish synagogue "the synagogue of Satan".

Based on the information that has been presented thus far, I think that those condemnations were unwarranted. How could the Jews have been expected to believe that Jesus was the messiah when he had not fulfilled the messianic prophecies?

I realize this information is very challenging to some people. It shakes the very foundations of what they believe--not only about religion, but about their entire view of existence. This can be very difficult for some people to accept. In fact, even I am massively reevaluating my own understanding of Christianity and Judaism as this thread progresses.

Truth is the goal; truth and understanding.

Truth is far from your goal, you seek only to mislead.

Here is why the 'jews' are wrong:

http://hope-of-israel.org/judaism.htm

Read this ^ and inform us how much authority you give to their opinion.


Here is why the christians are wrong:

http://www.thepathtolife.com/PathtoLife.pdf


Yahshua not only literally fulfilled hundreds of Prophecies, He succesfully 'Walked the Path', and when He spoke, People recognised the Authority He spoke with.

Because He 'Walked the Talk'.

The Nazarenes, being a Minority Group never persecuted any other group of Jews, rather they were persecuted, and eventually put out of the Synogogues.

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/

Evidence
http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id63.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/baduseot.html

It is utterly amazing how you distort and twist that which is obvious to the unbiased Sojourner.

[kasalt]

Notice how they cede that some of the Prophecies are True. You have to read more carefully kasalt. This is a major cause of your deficient reading comprehension.


One of Moses' Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not lie". Why is it, then, that those who promote religion so often tell lies in the process of promoting it?

They do not "cede that some of the Prophecies are True", as you falsely claim. They clearly state that most of the alleged prophecies can "be put to rest rather quickly" but a few do require a greater amount of analysis and explanation before they can "be put to rest". That is all they "ceded".


Yahshua not only literally fulfilled hundreds of Prophecies

Which prophecies did he fulfill?

Give me one, just one.

A week ago I asked you for a list of 10, to which you replied:

I'll do that.

...but you never delivered. Now I'm only asking for one. Can you deliver on that?

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.letusteachkids.com/Music/Music/hoedown.jpg

Who's the cowboy and who has the truth? :D

I'm just reading along good thread.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

One of Moses' Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not lie". Why is it, then, that those who promote religion so often tell lies in the process of promoting it?

They do not "cede that some of the Prophecies are True", as you falsely claim. They clearly state that most of the alleged prophecies can "be put to rest rather quickly" but a few do require a greater amount of analysis and explanation before they can "be put to rest". That is all they "ceded".



Which prophecies did he fulfill?

Give me one, just one.

A week ago I asked you for a list of 10, to which you replied:



...but you never delivered. Now I'm only asking for one. Can you deliver on that?

kasalt, only you, yourself can tell us why you have been so deceitful.

I consider you to be seriously deranged.

You and es have Posted 1,000s of deceitful Posts about the Bible, to promote your own agendas.

There are some Adults here yaknow. ;)

Pick any of the hundreds of Prophecies I have provided.
And present your 'Authorities' 'opinion'.

proves nothing, rather examine the Way Yahshua is presented.

Torah Conscious and Torah Observant.

You and es never realised that until informed you of these qualities.

I have provided ample evidence for any unbiased reader to draw an informed opinion, you have not.
Excuse me, I must Shower now.

[kasalt]

Pick any of the hundreds of Prophecies I have provided.
And present your 'Authorities' 'opinion'.

I have already provided you with analysis of some of the prophecies on the lists you have provided. You have not refuted or responded in any way to the analyses I have presented.

For example, take Zechariah 13:6. It is absolutely shocking that Zechariah 13:6 would be presented by a believer as evidence of a messianic prophecy, because the passage in question, when viewed in context, clearly refers to a false prophet.

What you have done is you have provided us with a passage that describes a false prophet and called it a messianic prophecy.

And you call me "deranged"? You are way out of order. Once again, it is time for you to look in the mirror in order to discover the true source of that accusation.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I have already provided you with analysis of some of the prophecies on the lists you have provided. You have not refuted or responded in any way to the analyses I have presented.

For example, take Zechariah 13:6. It is absolutely shocking that Zechariah 13:6 would be presented by a believer as evidence of a messianic prophecy, because the passage in question, when viewed in context, clearly refers to a false prophet.

What you have done is you have provided us with a passage that describes a false prophet and called it a messianic prophecy.

And you call me "deranged"? You are way out of order. Once again, it is time for you to look in the mirror in order to discover the true source of that accusation.

kasalt: I declare you DERANGED due to your declaration that there is no difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. You have detached from Reality and abandoned Rationality. You are deranged.

kasalt: your habit of stretching reality boggles the mind.
I certainly do not endorse every Prophetic example I have provided; 500+/-. In the Posts in my Thread where I mention Prophecy, I cite there are about about 100+/-. Messianic Prophecies.

much more conservative. :)

The onus is upon you to refute all 500+/- Prophecies, along the way you will notice over a Hundred of them are irrefutable.

This is your Sojourn, should you accept it. :)

Let's look at some facts. You made an appeal to an Authority (orthodox rabbis), that is Anemic at best. A group of 'Thinkers', 'Leaders' renowned for making some of the largest blunders in History.
http://hope-of-israel.org/judaism.htm

Here are some Cultural Facts.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/baduseot.html

B]SUMMARY: [/B]Overall then, I am forced to conclude that the NT authors were not in any way departing in radical fashion from their non-Christian counterparts in 1st century Judaism, in the areas of (1) textual usage or (2) exegetical practice. Instead, they were squarely within acceptable praxis, and indeed, may have constituted the most exegetically conservative of the groups at the time.

The THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

Here the question is: Do they use similar theological understandings of the text? In other words, do the other Jews of the period (list above) understand messianic texts and overall theological themes in the same ways?

The approach here will be to see if:

1. Non-Christian Jewry accepted the same OT passages as being messianic;
2. Non-Christian Jewry identified specific humans with some messianic figure;

3. Non-Christian Jewry had their OWN problem of 'plurality in the Godhead' and/or with a supra-human messiah;

4. Non-Christian Jewry used 'typological' exegesis;

5. Non-Christian Jewry accepted Jesus as Messiah.

In this case, the obvious answer to ALL of these is CLEARLY "yes".

1. Acceptance of the same OT passages as being messianic: I have demonstrated (in detail) that this was indeed the case elsewhere.

But let me make a couple of additional comments:

First, the Rabbinical material refers to three times as many messianic passages as does the NT! The NT writers could have tapped into a massive 'gold mine' of messianic traditions, but only used a small subset of these (perhaps controlled by the teaching of Jesus, cf. Luke 24.25-27). The rabbi's saw MANY more 'messianic' interpretations than did the NT Christians (even though some of the passages indeed differ).

Second, the Psalms were routinely seen as messianic by ALL 1st century "Judaism." The rabbinical citations alone show this for rabbinical Judaism. For Qumran, this is obvious from their use of the pesher method on them:

"Like the New Testament, some Qumran documents view the Psalms, as well as the Prophets, as prophetic in content. This perspective is attested, for example, in the reference to David as having uttered his psalms as 'prophecy' (see 11QPs(a) 27.11) as well as in the composition of pesharim devoted to some of the Psalms and Prophets." [HI:EMDSS:23]
"As for the Psalms, their use [in the NT] is primarily in line with the Scrolls' view of them as prophetic texts in need of fulfillment." [[HI:SASQ50:262].

In other words, the common objection that Christians twisted purely historical references in the Psalms into messianic prophecies is simply misguided. The rabbi's, the Covenanters, and the Messianic believers ALL shared these common understandings of messianic traditions in the Old Testament.


2. Did non-Christian Jewry identify specific humans with some messianic figure? Absolutely!

As I documented earlier, the range of messianic expectation was very, very wide--from a strictly human nationalist hero to a veritable "God-man" (Neusner's phrase). But most of them had a conception in mind, as they identified specific human individuals as 'candidates'.

This is very obvious from the string of messianic figures that arose (and were accepted by large segments of the population!) for two centuries on either side of Jesus of Nazareth. Messianic and semi-messianic Prophetic figures abounded in this period, and can be documented from the sources of the day.
Josephus (see [HI:PFLST] for full details) describes the following prophetic figures:

Essene Prophets:
Judas (War 1.78-80; Anti 13.311-13)
Menahem (Ant 15.373-79)
Simon (War 2.112-13; Ant 17.345-48)
Sign Prophets:
Theudas (Ant 20.97ff)
The Egyptian (War 2.261-63; Ant 20.169ff)
Unnamed figures under Felix (War 2.258-60; Ant 20.167-68)
Unnamed Prophet of 70 CE (War 6.283-87)
Jonathan the Sicarius (War 7.437-50; Life 424-25)
Unnamed Figure under Festus (Ant 20.188)
Other Figures:
Onias (Ant 14.22-24)
Jesus Son of Ananias (war 6.300-309)
Pharisees Pollion and Samaias (Ant 14.172-76)
There were also messianic "kings" that show up, and that attracted followers from the Jewish populace. [This material is available in detail in NWNTI:242-252, and BPM:chapter 3]:

1. Judas (of Sepphoris, Galilee), son of Hezekiah the "brigand chief".
2. Simon of Perea, a former royal servant.
3. Athronges the shepherd of Judea.
4. Judas (of Gamala) the Galilean (mentioned in Acts 5.37).
5. Menahem (grand)son of Judas the Galilean.
6. John of Gischala son of Levi.
7. Simon bar Giora of Gerasa.
And to show that the Rabbi's were not exempt from this (apart from their involvement in prophecy as noted in Josephus above), let me cite the famous rabbinic passages in which the tradition of R. Aqiba ascribes messiah-hood to Bar Kovia:
"R. Simeon b. Yohai taught, 'My teacher Aqiba used to expound, 'There shall step forth a star out of Jacob [Num 24.17]--thus Koziva steps forth out of Jacob! When R. Aqiba beheld Bar Koziva, he exclaimed, 'This is the king Messiah'" [y.Taan. 4.8]
"R. Yohanan said, 'My teacher used to expound, 'There shall step forth a star out of Jacob [Num 24.17]--thus, read not kokab [star], but kozeb [liar]'". 'When R. Aqiva beheld Bar Koziva, he exclaimed, 'This is the king Messiah'" (Lam. R. 2.4)

In both passages, Aqiba is disagreed with by R. Torta, but the point is still obvious: one of the most famous rabbi's in early Jewish history called a human being (not the nation Israel or the 'elect remnant') the "messiah".

Early Jewish Christians were simply NOT the only ones that identified a human individual with the messianic promises--the rabbi's did, Qumran did, the general Jewish populace did. [/QUOTE]

Furthermore:

]........4. Did non-Christian Jewry use 'typological' exegesis in the same ways NT Christian Jews did? [/B]

Absolutely!

And I have documented this elsewhere as being present throughout the Tanaakh and other Judaica of the times.

We were (again) not unique in this at all.

5. Did any Non-Christian Jewry find NT arguments persuasive and exegesis 'acceptable'? ("As measured by" accepting Jesus as Messiah?!)

Obviously so! [Or we would not be having this conversation, now would we? (smile)]
If the New Testament can be trusted at all, we know:


1. Every author in the NT (with the POSSIBLE exception of Luke) was a Palestinian Jew.
2. Large numbers of Palestinian and Diaspora Jewry accepted Jesus as Messiah within the first 10 years of the resurrection.
3. Many Priests became believers (Acts 6.7).
4. There were Pharisees among the believers, including Rabbi Saul of Tarsus, (Act 15).
5. The Jerusalem church (and its geographical successor) continued as a vital community for centuries.
6. The NT church continued its practice and belief WITHIN Judaism for decades and decades (e.g., temple worship, circumcision of Jews, vows), until they were "liturgically expelled" from the synagogue.
In fact, every social strata of Jewry around is represented in the early Jewish church!

Fiensy lists some of the various classes of folk known to be in that group:

1. The Wealthy or Semi-wealthy (Simon of Cyrene, Barnabas, Ananias & Sapphira, Mary mother of John Mark, Manaen,
Levi/Matthew)

2. The lower class (some of the disciples, James)

3. Ordinary temple priests (but not from High Priestly family)

4. One Levite (Joseph Barnabas, Acts 4.36)

5. Submerged classes (e.g. beggars, impoverished widows, and healed people)

6. Women of various classes

7. Hebraists (Jews who spoke both Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek) and Hellenists (Jews who only spoke Greek).

8. Pharisees (Acts 15.5)


So, we can safely say that at least some Jews found the NT-type arguments persuasive and the methods 'acceptable', and this phrase 'some Jews' would have included those from all of the other "Judaisms" of the day.[/QUOTE]

And to conclude, Facts which totally refutes your uninformed assertions!

[QUOTE]Let me quickly summarize the above pieces, before moving on to the next of your questions. What we have seen so far:

1. The Jewish believers reflected an awareness of a mixture of text types--just as ALL of their contemporaries did.
2. The Jewish believers reflected a usage of a mixture of text types--just as ALL of their contemporaries did.

3. The Jewish believers used the same interpretive approaches that ALL of their contemporaries did.

4. The Jewish believers used the same exegetical rules as the Rabbi's.

5. The Jewish believers were probably more 'conservative' and 'uncreative' in their Tanakh/OT exegesis than their contemporaries, including the rabbi's.

6. The Jewish Christians believed in the prophetic significance of the Psalms--shared with the major contemporary groups of the day.

7. The Jewish believers had views on the main messianic passages that were shared by some or all of their contemporaries.

8. The Jewish believers saw the messianic prophecies fulfilled in a specific human being--and their contemporaries were willing to make similar identifications.

9. The Jewish believers had a 'plurality problem'--that was inherited from Judaism and indeed, shared with the other 'Judaisms' of the day (and actually, later as well).

10. The Jewish believers used typological exegesis on occasion--just like their contemporaries.

11. The NT authors saw in Jesus of Nazareth the promised Messiah, as did many of their fellow Jews from all walks of life.

To be sure, Jewish believers in Jesus in the first century WERE DIFFERENT from their counterparts--but the difference was NOT due to radical discontinuities in reverence for the bible or in exegetical methods. [We shall note at the end of this article where the difference lay, and we will see that it was similar to the differences between the Pharisees and the Qumran covenanters.]
But at this point, we can simply conclude that the early Jewish Christians were as faithful to their heritage and as honest with their religious background as ANY of the other Jewish groups of the day.


Now, what I have tried to demonstrate so far---from primary and secondary sources--was that the early Jewish believers were in no way treating the Tanakh/OT inappropriately. They used the same methods, same approaches, same textual mix, same religious guidelines toward God's word.

But they did 'end up at' a different place from the other peer-Judaisms of the day. We must now try to characterize WHAT differences emerged, and HOW such a distinctive 'flavor' of pre-Talmudic Judaism could have developed given the strong continuities and similar worldviews between Jewish Christianity and non-Christian Jewry (1st century).

[B]To this we turn now...

In a nutshell, the main difference between the early Jewish messianic believers and other Jews of "other Judaisms" was their personal experience of God's in-breaking in the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth.

Another way of putting this would be that the Jewish people of the Land who encountered Jesus in his salvific ministry, recognized in that encounter that YHWH had 'visited His people'. Out of the many, many "possible messianic scenarios" afforded by the messianic prophecies in the Tanakh/OT, they saw one materialize--concretely, specifically, powerfully, authoritatively, vividly-- in front of their very eyes and in the middle of their troubled lives. They encountered their Awesome Covenant God, "meek and bearing salvation", in this brash and powerful figure from Nazareth.

They were never the same again.

They experienced the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God. They saw how Israel would be delivered. They understood why 'making an end of unrighteousness' (Dan 9) was first in the eschatological program. They knew that God had begun to fulfill his many promises to His people, in this strange and wonderful Visitor. They experienced the "aftershocks of love" in the community created by the outpouring of the promised Spirit from the prophet Joel.

History had been split in half for them.


R. T. France points out that this element was the critical difference between these Jews and their peers [JSOTGP3:123]:

"Foremost among the distinctive elements of early Christianity was its sense of history. Other Jews might locate the decisive acts of God in the distant past of sacred history, or, with the apocalyptists and the men of Qumran, in the imminent future; but for the Christians the decisive work of God was in Jesus the Messiah, whose recent life, death and resurrection many of them had witnessed, and whose deeds and words were the basis of their faith and the subject of those writings they called 'gospels'. So while other Jews looked to the scriptures to discover and interpret the distant past, or to understand their present situation with a view to discerning what God was about to do, the Christians turned to those same scriptures as the pattern and promise which had already and recently been fulfilled. Their interest, then, was not in the Old Testament in itself, but in the Old Testament as it is fulfilled in Jesus.
And this was not a function of their being particularly 'clever' or 'creative' at all! Indeed, the picture we get in the NT is very uncomplimentary of those early followers. But they watched Jesus, and His approaches to Scripture and His approaches to matters of interpretation, and His approach to matters of practice, and they learned and passed this on to others. It was, accordingly, not THEIR action or approaches that created this difference--it was Jesus'. So, Ellis [OTEC:101]:
"It has been argued above that, in terms of method, the early Christian use of the Old Testament was thoroughly Jewish and had much in common with other Jewish groups. Much more significant than method, however, was the interpretation of Scripture offered by Jesus and his followers. In some respects this also agrees with previous Jewish interpretation, but in others it displays an innovative and unique departure. Sometimes the New Testament writers (to whom we shall limit this survey), and Jesus as he is represented by them, set forth their distinctive views in a biblical exegesis; sometimes they appear, at least to us, simply to presuppose a 'Christian' exegetical conclusion. They apparently derive their particular understanding of Scripture both from Jesus' teaching and from implications drawn from his resurrection from the dead.
Longenecker points to both this continuity and this starting point of Jesus :
"[T]he early Christians used many of the same exegetical procedures as were common within the various branches of then contemporary Judaism, and that they did so quite naturally and unconsciously...that they seem to have looked to Jesus' own use of Scripture as the source and initial paradigm for their own use
[B]It was Jesus who pointed His hearers and followers to the inspired text, and who explained that HE was the hermeneutical center of this awesome revelation: "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5.39)
The issue began with Jesus...

..and it will continue to be Jesus.


I have surveyed in other places the radical character, offers of divine renewal, and authoritative claims of this Jewish Jesus, son of David, son of Man, Son of God. But it is quite clear today, that this Jesus spoke as if He were the very authority of God. Indeed, no one has seen this more clearly than Neusner:

"Here is a Torah-teacher who says in his own name what the Torah says in God's name...For what kind of torah is it that improves upon the teachings of the Torah without acknowledging the source--and it is God who is the Source--of those teachings? I am troubled not so much by the message, though I might take exception to this or that, as I am by the messenger...Sages...say things in their own names, but without claiming to improve upon the Torah. The prophet, Moses, speaks not in his own name but in God's name, saying what God has told him to say. Jesus speaks not as a sage nor as a prophet...So we find ourselves...with the difficulty of making sense, within the framework of the Torah, of a teacher who stands apart from, perhaps above, the Torah...We now recognize that at issue is the figure of Jesus, not the teachings at all." [A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, p.30f]
The early Jewish messianic believers were not wild-eyed fanatics. Nor were they opportunistic schemers. Nor were they even interested in such things. They had experienced first-hand the hope of Israel! They tried to share this access to the God of the Tanakh/OT with their loved ones. Paul can write:
"Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (2 Cor 4.2)
Ellis draws much of this together in OTEC:121, and his words bear repeating:
"Biblical interpretation in the New Testament church shows in a remarkable way the Jewishness of earliest Christianity. It followed exegetical methods common to Judaism and drew its perspective and presuppositions from Jewish backgrounds. However, in one fundamental respect the early Christian hermeneutic differed from that of other religious parties and theologies in Judaism, that is, in the christological exposition of the Scripture totally focused upon Jesus as the Messiah. This different focus decisively influences both the perspective from which they expound the Old Testament and the way in which their presuppositions are brought to bear upon the specific biblical texts. Their perspective and presuppositions provide, in turn, the theological framework for the development of their exegetical themes and for the whole of New Testament theology.
"First-century Judaism was a highly diverse phenomenon, as becomes apparent from a comparison of the writings of Philo, Josephus, Qumran, the (traditions of the) rabbis and the early Christians. The New Testament, which as far as I can see was written altogether by Jews, is a part of that diversity but also a part of that Judaism. Its writers were Jews, but Jews who differed from the majority of the nation and who in time found the greater number of their company of faith not among their own people but among the Gentiles. And still today, apart from a continuing Judeo-Christian minority, the church remains a community of Gentiles, but Gentiles with a difference. For as long as Gentile Christians give attention to their charter documents, they can never forget that as those who are joined to a Jewish Messiah they are in a manner of speaking 'adopted Jews' or, in Paul's imagery, branches engrafted into the ancient tree of Israel and a people who have their hope in the promise given to Abraham. The centrality of the Old Testament in the message of Jesus and his apostles and prophets underscores that fact.

This is what the early Jewish Christians were "all about." We may use fancy theological words like 'christological exposition' or 'Christian exegetical conclusions', but all that is being said is that these precious Jews had been touched by the Exalted God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--through the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth, and the renewed humanity that was created by that work. Nothing else was as real, and as true, and as life-changing as this experience of God's intervention in history.
And they--using the tools of their peers, the texts of their peers, and the methods of their peers--could see this reality in the messianic passages and themes of their shared Mikra/Scripture...and this 'visitation of good news' had been promised by their God, and fulfilled in the appearing of the long-awaited Messiah--Son of David, Son of Man, Son of God.

Glenn Miller,
April, 1998


What do you think of your Hasidic pals in Brooklyn, they thought their Rabbi Shneerson was the messiah in the 1990s?

[kasalt]

kasalt: I declare you DERANGED due to your declaration that there is no difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. You have detached from Reality and abandoned Rationality. You are deranged.

Of course there is a difference of scale, but the mentality is very much the same. The proof of the pudding is in the eating...

GERMANY 1940 - ISRAEL 2009 - Shocking Pictures
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50700&highlight=israel

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1, url: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-israel-orders-tough-measures-against-militant-settlers.html ]

"The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as Displaced Persons as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog." --US President Harry Truman, who presided over the end of WWII and its aftermath: From Truman's personal diary, 1947

"The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah. It will attain world domination by the dissolution of other races...and by the establishment of a world republic in which everywhere the Jews will exercise the privilege of citizenship. In this New World Order the Children of Israel...will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition..." --Karl Marx in a letter to Baruch Levy, quoted in Review de Paris, June 1, 1928, p. 574

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Of course there is a difference of scale, but the mentality is very much the same. The proof of the pudding is in the eating

SuperBullshit with free lollipops!

I can help you kasalt, but until you realise you desparately need help, my efforts would be futile. :(

There is a difference between you and I.

You are very Guileful, I am not.

You have Malice of Intent, I do not.

You are very Carnal, I am not.

Until you, yourself, realise the difference, you will remain ignorant.

[kasalt]

There are some Adults here yaknow. ;)

And you clearly are not one of them:

SuperBullshit with free lollipops!

:rolleyes:

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Calumny & Innuendo, the Bigots most useful tools, for now. ;)

Let's put HSTs babble into context, shall we:

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/2517.htm

Truman's tirade about the Jews came about because Morgenthau called him to intervene and alleviate the peril facing a Jewish ship in Palestine being refused entry by the British, then rulers of that land.

Truman wrote: "He'd no business, whatever to call me. The Jews have no sense of proportion nor do they have any judgment on world affairs. Henry brought a thousand Jews to New York on supposedly temporary basis and they stayed."

At that point in the diary Truman rants about the Jews: "The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as Displaced Persons as long as Jews get special treatment..."


Back to Yahshua as Messiah. Do you still 'believe' there was fraud and deceit amongst the Apostle and Disciples?

[kasalt]

Calumny & Innuendo, the Bigots most useful tools, for now. ;)

You mean calumny & innuendo like this?

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=96077#post96077)
Asshole...

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=96077#post96077)
Lying Asshole, I now add the qualifier 'Chickenshit'...Lying Chickenshit Asshole.

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=96077#post96077)
'Take it on the arches' you Lying,Chickenshit Asshole Hump.

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=95271#post95271)
Bloated & Inflamed Asshole

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=95503#post95503)
As for deeming you a 'Bloated & Inflamed Asshole' and your Proxy(other than you)Army of Anti-Yahwists,'Dim-Witted Assholes', I am well within my rights, The entire 'Milieu' of the Book ofYahweh is 'Iron Fist within a Velvet Glove'.


Who's the bigot now? :confused:

[eternal_spirit]

You mean calumny & innuendo like this?


Who's the bigot now? :confused:



A common theme amongst the religious zealouts round here, seen him slagging both of us off on another thread tonight.

And him complimenting another of our resident Islamic religious zealouts, who exhibits the same behaviour as himself.

They start with the insults.

[raven200]

We all know that Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but few of us know or understand the reasons why. The purpose of this thread is not to cast doubt upon Christianity or Judaism, but rather to promote understanding and clarity regarding why the differences between the Christian and Jewish faiths regarding Jesus exist.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

Orthodox Rabbi Shraga Simmmons explains why Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

Source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

Question

Why did the majority of the Jewish world reject Jesus as the Messiah, and why did the first Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Answer

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David.!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!" (see also: John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus. Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

As expected you see yourselves as the best people alive and better then all. What is is stuff about national revelation??

Have you been given devine revelation as yet, what about your Jewish neighbour have they been formaly told by God to beleive that they are the best of all people and have the most unique faith?

Can you categorically say you have been told directly be god about your faith??

Jesus my friend was a Jewish man he never said anything other than that, he did not say that he came to bring a new faith. He came to reform the Jews, which unfortunately did not happen and his message totally got bewildered by the Jews and also the christians who then went further and made him into a GOD??

Judaism as a religion has many sects in it and very extremely different beliefs from one to another so which Judaism sect would you say is true? Has God not given you all national revelation about that yet?

I will make further posts on this subject and show you the truth about your faith and who Jesus really was!!

[raven200]

A common theme amongst the religious zealouts round here, seen him slagging both of us off on another thread tonight.

And him complimenting another of our resident Islamic religious zealouts, who exhibits the same behaviour as himself.

They start with the insults.







Why does all your comments end with Islam in them or something negative about Islam or you attempting to link Islam to something negative??

I think your slightly or maybe more than slightly mentally disturbed in relation to the efforts you putting in to show your negativity.

[eternal_spirit]

Why does all your comments end with Islam in them or something negative about Islam or you attempting to link Islam to something negative??

I think your slightly or maybe more than slightly mentally disturbed in relation to the efforts you putting in to show your negativity.

Thanks to adding weight and more proof to my previous post.
Many Muslims think they are right and everyone else is wrong. But in reality they are proven wrong time and time again. Pity they're to happy living in their delsuional states of mind.
And here's more proof.
quote raven200
I will make further posts on this subject and show you the truth about your faith and who Jesus really was!! Good, could do with a laugh!

[raven200]

Thanks to adding weight and more proof to my previous post.
Many Muslims think they are right and everyone else is wrong. But in reality they are proven wrong time and time again. Pity they're to happy living in their delsuional states of mind.
And here's more proof.
Good, could do with a laugh!

The argument works both ways, I would say you are delusional as you constantly make false accusation and back it up with lies that majority of muslims don't agree with.

Don't bother pasting tons of your crap here from various sources, because as you have been told before is that they are incorrect.

If ever you do use something that is correct you basically twist it to make it negative.

Like for example I can start a statement that you walk past childrens schools when going to the shops to Perv on kids!!

I could go on at it by saying you specifically choose that route because of your desire to perv.

I could further paste a number of various routes you could use instead of your usual one to prove my point.

It is this methadology that you use to try and spread your lies even if people are saying that you are incorrect.

Think about it!!

[eternal_spirit]

The argument works both ways, I would say you are delusional as you constantly make false accusation and back it up with lies that majority of muslims don't agree with.

Don't bother pasting tons of your crap here from various sources, because as you have been told before is that they are incorrect.

If ever you do use something that is correct you basically twist it to make it negative.

Like for example I can start a statement that you walk past childrens schools when going to the shops to Perv on kids!!

I could go on at it by saying you specifically choose that route because of your desire to perv.

I could further paste a number of various routes you could use instead of your usual one to prove my point.

It is this methadology that you use to try and spread your lies even if people are saying that you are incorrect.

Think about it!!
I think you made a typo with your forum name, it should have been raving not Raven! and number 2 not 200!

[raven200]

I think you made a typo with your forum name, it should have been raving not Raven! and number 2 not 200!

Yeh try and change the subject when you can't answer a simple anology.

Admit it you hav'nt got the capacity to think about what I put in my previous post! Your so into your rubbish that you can't think outside the box!!

Your completely locked in your box!

Your a limited human being unfortuantely!! your missing out on the world and its wonderful people!

[eternal_spirit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by raven200 http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1043959#post1043959)
Why does all your comments end with Islam in them or something negative about Islam or you attempting to link Islam to something negative??

I think your slightly or maybe more than slightly mentally disturbed in relation to the efforts you putting in to show your negativity.Muslims often include in their posts it was the CIA, the Zionists, and the evil satanic westerners! Or Jews dressed as Muslims pretending to be Muslims and doing bad things!

I'll leave it there, but will be back later to see your reply to this below which is related more to the threads topic.

Quote:
quote raven200
I will make further posts on this subject and show you the truth about your faith and who Jesus really was!!

[raven200]

Quote:
Originally Posted by raven200 http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1043959#post1043959)
Muslims often include in their posts it was the CIA, the Zionists, and the evil satanic westerners! Or Jews dressed as Muslims pretending to be Muslims and doing bad things!

I'll leave it there, but will be back later to see your reply to this below



So what if I wrote a statement about making further posts! when I say something that I beleive to be true I say it with an open mind, and I don't use foul and degrading information full of lies to put my point across! A lot can be said by the way one puts himself across not just in physical appearance but in words as well!!

I have never said satanic westerners and I don't think that! Your the one jumping to conclusions and throwing accusation from statements that have never been made! Show me a post of mine where I have said "Evil satanic westerners".

I could show you a whole range of your posts that are rascist and degrading to other people beliefs and religion and including lies within them!!

So first you answer my analogy about you perving on kids?

Would you not agree it is easy to start a false statment and start backing it up with bullshit evidence that can be made to look correct!

Bit like how the Iraq war was started!

Were you the master mind behind that as well?

[kasalt]

A common theme amongst the religious zealouts round here, seen him slagging both of us off on another thread tonight...

They start with the insults.

Yes, he is so convinced (indoctrinated) of his own rightness and virtue that he doesn't mind heaping false accusations and insults on anyone who dares to disagree.

What's funny is that he is guilty of the very things he falsely accuses me of doing. For example, he accuses me of "bigotry". I have to wonder if he even knows the meaning of the word:

bigotry (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigotry) - stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
Synonyms: narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

With that definition of bigotry in mind, here is what Snoops has called the Chabad-Lubavitch movement of Hasidic Jews:

a batshit crazy cult...

This, from a man who has promoted a "crazy cult" (the House of Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yahweh)) on this very forum.

And this is what he's said about Hasidic Jews for having beliefs which differ from his own:

the batshit crazy and stoooopid opinion of Talmudic Zionist Hasidics...

It's just sheer hypocrisy on his part, as blatant as can be (Romans 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:1;&version=9;)).

[drakul]

This may be the single biggest reason why Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah:Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeconiah) (Matthew 1:11 (http://bible.cc/matthew/1-11.htm)) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30 (http://bible.cc/jeremiah/22-30.htm); 36:30 (http://bible.cc/jeremiah/36-30.htm))
Link to source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp
According to Matthew 1:11, Jesus was descended from Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiakin), who was the son of Jehoiakim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoiakim). But regarding Jeconiah (aka Jehoiakin) Jeremiah 22:30 clearly states:"No man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."
If we are to take Jeremiah 22:30 and 36:30 literally, it would hardly seem possible that Jesus could be the Messiah, the "lion of the tribe of Judah", and heir to the throne of King David.

This is Totally irrelevant because Joseph was not Jesus' father.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

You mean calumny & innuendo like this?







Who's the bigot now? :confused:




I'll stand by every word I have Posted kasalt, as a matter of fact, you are all that and more. I based my judgements upon firsthand interaction with you.


If you don't want to be called an Asshole, don't act like like one.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

A common theme amongst the religious zealouts round here, seen him slagging both of us off on another thread tonight.

And him complimenting another of our resident Islamic religious zealouts, who exhibits the same behaviour as himself.

They start with the insults.







since I cannot personally put my hands upon any of you Bigots and Racists and Liars, it 'seems' to be the next best thing.

es; your shadowworld manifested in DC yesterday, Hero or Villain, only you know?

[kasalt]

I'll stand by every word I have Posted kasalt, as a matter of fact, you are all that and more. I based my judgements upon firsthand interaction with you.

If you don't want to be called an Asshole, don't act like like one.

Your "calumnies" in those quotes were not aimed at me. You directed them at another forum member who did nothing but hold to a view that differed from your own. You started with the vulgar insults, and the forum member to whom you directed your vile insults remained above it and did not respond to you in similar fashion.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Yes, he is so convinced (indoctrinated) of his own rightness and virtue that he doesn't mind heaping false accusations and insults on anyone who dares to disagree.

What's funny is that he is guilty of the very things he falsely accuses me of doing. For example, he accuses me of "bigotry". I have to wonder if he even knows the meaning of the word:

bigotry (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigotry) - stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
Synonyms: narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

With that definition of bigotry in mind, here is what Snoops has called the Chabad-Lubavitch movement of Hasidic Jews:



This, from a man who has promoted a "crazy cult" (the House of Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Yahweh)) on this very forum.

And this is what he's said about Hasidic Jews for having beliefs which differ from his own:



It's just sheer hypocrisy on his part, as blatant as can be (Romans 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:1;&version=9;)).



No hypocracy, that is your deranged assessment.

I have Promoted no cult, I presented information that no one else has presented, and the quality of that information is exponentialy greater than the information you have presented on the same subject.

Let's compare again:

House of Yahweh: http://yahweh.com/PWMags/DefaultPW12_2004.htm

http://yahweh.com/PWMags/DefaultPW12_2006.htm



Who's actually Posting garbage? Posted by kasalt:

http://www.lovewithoutend.com/

http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/62-more-on-christianity.html


Be honest now kasalt, whos' material is of higher quality?

I think it is quite telling how all of a sudden a bunch of snaggle toothed flearidden and fleabrained compadres have appeared.

is it because I was beating your ass like a one dollar drum?

I would say so.

Yo Bigots, Liars; your world manifested yesterday in DC, are you happy now?

[eternal_spirit]

since I cannot personally put my hands upon any of you Bigots and Racists and Liars, it 'seems' to be the next best thing.

es; your shadowworld manifested in DC yesterday, Hero or Villain, only you know?
You'll be needing more of these

http://www.nuk3.com/gallery/images/comedy/full/79.jpg

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Back to the original premise: As I Posted in my first Post in this Thread, I said 'SOME' of the Jews do not think Yahshua is Messiah, This I have proved. Some, not all the Jews.


http://www.mashiyach.com/
http://www.mashiyach.com/kingdom/kingdom.htm

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

John 7:24

The world has little or no knowledge of the office of Judges as required by YHWH. In a Torah based community, Judges were appointed to be examples of righteous conduct. A Judge of Israel is a righteous counselor who is both well versed in Righteousness and a mentor and disciplinarian, not an enterprising politician. If it were not for the Righteous Judgments of Torah there would be no need for Mashiyach, it is the Torah that established the Judgment to qualify Y'shua as haMashiyach. Torah provides the benchmark of Justice. The Jews proved Y'shua to be Mashiyach based on "Torah Consciousness", if it were not for the Disciples of Y'shua who came into agreement with the Messiahship of Y'shua we would not have heard the name or fame of Y'shua, there would be no such thing as a Christian or Messianic today. It is Torah that established the Messiahship of Y'shua firmly within the Jewish people. From this "group acceptance" of Y'shua as Mashiyach came forth the Kingdom of Elohim, but weak and carnal men only want you to remember the Jewish world for denying Y'shua, not establishing him.

Mashiyach is the active and progressive Righteous Judgment of Torah manifest to the world, he is the WORD of YHWH, the TORAH that set forth the criterion by which Mashiyach is proven, and is being proven by all who walk in him and even by those who deny him. The more we turn to Mashiyach, the more we stand judged as incomplete without Him! Y'shua is the Perfect Image of the invisible Elohim. Without Mashiyach there is nothing to live for in this life because all life is based on Mashiyach.

Case Closed!

I'm done here.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

You'll be needing more of these

http://www.nuk3.com/gallery/images/comedy/full/79.jpg


you really have nothing, don't you es?

You have nothing at all.

I have never met a happy bigot, racist or liar, it got to suk to be you.

[kasalt]

since I cannot personally put my hands upon any of you Bigots and Racists and Liars

Here he implies threats of physical violence, which is bigotry in action.

If there were any truth to his argument, he would be able to prove it in the process of polite dialogue and debate. When he sees that he cannot prove his case, he resorts to insults and threats, which is proof positive that he is in the wrong.

[luciferhorus]

Of course there is a difference of scale, but the mentality is very much the same. The proof of the pudding is in the eating...

GERMANY 1940 - ISRAEL 2009 - Shocking Pictures
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50700&highlight=israel



The Jewish Problem

Yes it is shocking; throwing people off their ancestral lands and treating them like subhumans is guaranteed to bring hatred and a militant response, however the situation in Israel in not caused by 'The' Jewish people, it is casued by 'some' Jewish people, and there are many others who consider the situation to be simply abhorrent. However, since you are a defender of Capitalism, what the British and Americans are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan and throughout their long history of imperialism is morally no different, it is just that the Christian Capitalist state terrorists have a much longer history of wars, crusades, inquisitions and genocides and their casualty list is much bigger and bloodier.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/51/Iraq_for_sale_poster.jpg/423px-Iraq_for_sale_poster.jpg

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1, url: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-israel-orders-tough-measures-against-militant-settlers.html ]

Such an attitude is representative only of a racist, xenophobic minority, particuarly among the Jewish Capitalists and religionists of the older generation and among the indoctrinated Israeli military; by far the vast majority of the Jewish youth do not think like that, they are entirely secular and probably have more in common with Bob Dylan than Theodore Hertzl.


"The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as Displaced Persons as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog." --US President Harry Truman, who presided over the end of WWII and its aftermath: From Truman's personal diary, 1947

I have no idea as to what Truman is referring to in 1947 by 'when they have power'; there certainly had been violence in Palestine for decades years prior to 1947 between Jewish and Arab factions due to the increase of Jewish migrants, but Israel was not established until 1948, and prior to that I cannot understand how he could compare them as being more cruel than Hitler or Stalin.

Since we are speaking of a diverse group of people with differing political perspectives who are far from united, to state 'The Jews' are selfish is much the same as saying 'Americans are selfish;' the latter is probably true due to conditioning in the Capitalist system, but within the global Jewish community there are numerous Leftists, Socialists, Communists etc., who are entirely idealistic, have a great concern for humanity who consider Capitalism (which you so devoutly defend), to be a system which breeds and encourages human selfishness.

Frankly I find that those who were raised in the Kibbutz, in common with most of the 'Left' have selfishness drilled out of them.


"The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah. It will attain world domination by the dissolution of other races...and by the establishment of a world republic in which everywhere the Jews will exercise the privilege of citizenship. In this New World Order the Children of Israel...will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition..." --Karl Marx in a letter to Baruch Levy, quoted in Review de Paris, June 1, 1928, p. 574

http://www.buzzflash.com/anderson/04/09/images/14MilitantFundamentalism.jpg

Such an attitude is hardly exclusive to 'some' of Jewish people; most Christians seem to think that 'they' are the chosen people, that they are saved and that the world is unsaved. Muslims think like this as well.

While Judaism is a religion, the term 'Jewish people' is really no more than a type of pseudo-nationalism, since there is no common religion or political ideology and there is no common 'race,' since there are black, Semitic and European Jews.

Nationalism is simply a disease; it is the 'my nation is better than your nation' attitude and has no place whatsoever in modern Communist thought.

If I were to say that 'All Americans want to take over the world,' this would be entirely incorrect, but if I said that 'Some Americans want to take over the world,' I think that is indisputable; similarly among the Jewish people.

Capitalism also encourages nationalist competition. Jewish people, even without a national border around them simply have to compete like anyone else and often consider their identity a 'cultural' identity, just like British or American nationalists do.

The history of Israel since 1948 is shameful, but the history of British and American imperialism is no different; this is what tyrannies (governments often do).

With regards to Judaism, Islam and Christianity, we can make valid generalisations and say that they are homphobic, paternalistic, misogynistic miltiant faiths, but these are religions and are fair game for attack; whereas the 'Jewish people' are as politically and religiously divided amongst themselves as the British or Americans are. Thus whenever I hear 'The Jews are....X, Y, Z' frankly usually such descriptions are almost always expressions of bigotry.


LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
World Communist Revolution


http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/91/91873.jpg
Nazi propaganda poster warning Germans about the dangers of "subhumans."

[lightgiver]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1360/613625474_045f89df10.jpg?v=0

Among the Jewish Youth, who are in general highly educated, literate and tend to be very active on the Internet, the Communists, Anarchists, Socialists and freethinkers who are generally humanist, New Age or Neo-Pagan vastly outnumber the tiny majority of Jewish religionists obsessed with the ramblings of their ancestors.

http://21stcenturysocialism.com/files/normal_DovKheninSpeaking.jpg

While Jesus is considered in general a Jewish anti-Capitalist, it is merely Christianity which the Jewish people generally despise; it is after all a religion based upon Judaism and a Jewish prophet which has been responsible for centuries of anti-Judaism, and their numerous wars, inquisitions, crusades, holocausts and religious hypocrisy in general.

http://www.socialistunity.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dov-khenin-anti-war-protest.jpg
______________


Jesus: The Last Communist


June 26, 2007 by Bruno Somerset


Since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Soviet Union nearly two decades ago, it has been widely assumed that communism is dead. With North Korea in shambles, the Castro era ending in Cuba, and the move to a free market in China, this does appear true. In fact, most attempts at instituting the ideals of communism have failed, mainly because they were instituted by megalomaniacal despots.

However, there is one model of pure communism that has over a billion followers, although most don't practice it the way their founder taught them to. That model is Christianity. Forget Marx and Lenin and Mao; if you want an example of a true Communist leader, Jesus is your man.

Sure, it sounds crazy, and maybe even a little blasphemous to some, but before you judge, consider Webster's definition of communism: "a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed." Now let's look at the guide all Christians use as the basis of their belief, and that some consider infallible: the Bible.

The second and fourth chapters of the Book of Acts give a clear example, too seldom followed in Christian churches today, of what most would consider communism:

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts." (Acts 2:44-46 NIV)

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need." (Acts 4:32-35 NIV)

The Gospels are filled with teachings by Jesus or his followers that encourage, and even demand, a social and economic equality foreign to us today:

"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." (Luke 14:13 NIV)

The Jewish youth are highly educated :confused:

watch vid on this thread link,

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67953

Must be the booze affecting their braincells.

[kasalt]

I have no idea as to what Truman is referring to in 1947 by 'when they have power'; there certainly had been violence in Palestine for decades years prior to 1947 between Jewish and Arab factions due to the increase of Jewish migrants, but Israel was not established until 1948, and prior to that I cannot understand how he could compare them as being more cruel than Hitler or Stalin.

I can't be sure myself. Perhaps he was referring to Jewish involvement in the establishment of Bolshevism and helping to bring about the Russian Revolution, but I don't think he meant to imply that they were more cruel. I think he was saying that they were equally as cruel.

I had to shake my head at this quote from the link (http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/2517.htm) that Snoops pasted in reply to the Truman quote:Truman went into a tizzy because he felt that Morgenthau had no right to approach him about a ship laden with war ravaged Jewish refugees hoping to enter Palestine. Its telling isn't it that we Jews are called selfish as we attempt to save the lives of our brethren. If Jews will not speak up for Jews who will?
What an ironic statement that is, in light of the comments made by top-ranking Zionists of Truman's day about Jewish immigrants who were trying to flee Europe and migrate to Israel during WW2. For example, consider this:As late as 1943, while the Jews of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine.

This is the same Rabbi Wise who, in 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American Jewish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable Jews to find refuge. He stated:"It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading Jewish organizations met in conference ... It was decided that no Jewish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws."
Source: "The Brutal Zionist Role in the Holocaust", http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/an...aust/index.cfm (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm)

See also: "Zionism and the Holocaust", http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust.htm

So it was with rabbinical support of US immigration policy that the European Jews on board the MS St. Louis were denied entry into the US, and the ship was sent back to Europe where at least 1/3 of the Jews on board eventually perished in the Holocaust. This voyage of the MS St. Louis has since come to be known as the "Voyage of the Damned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis#Voyage_of_the_Damned)".

The Zionist quotes continue...

David Ben-Gurion (quoted from his book Uniqueness and Purpose – Words to and on the IDF):"The dying exiles being rounded up in Israel are not yet tantamount to a nation, but to sub-human riffraff, with no language, no education, no roots. Transforming humanoid raw-material into a cultural nation is no easy task. The Land of Israel is in need of selective immigration. Zionism is not a philanthropy. Here we need Jews of the superior type, who'll develop the national home."
And these quotes from Hiam Breseeth:
"The old Jew in Zionist iconography was not dissimilar to the standard anti-Semitic portrait -- the 'inversion of what is productive,' 'the rootless, cosmopolitan, unproductive, and passive entity, inevitably attracting the hatred of its social environment, as it were. Zionism was to eradicate this type of Jewishness and replace it with the new Jew."

"The [European] ghetto Jew was doomed from the Zionist perspective -- human dust, as [former Israeli president] Weitzmann named him, a historical figure with a despicable past and no future. Thus, the ghetto Jew became the antithesis of the Israeli Jew, even before the creation of the Israeli state."
Source: http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/zionismlink.htm

The source goes on to list other quotes from notable Zionist leaders regarding their Jewish brethren, such as:Mikha Berdichevski: "Not a nation, not a people, not human."

A.D. Gordon: "Parasitism, people fundamentally useless."
Those Zionists sounded a lot like Hitler.

If these were the opinions of Zionist leaders regarding their Jewish brethren, no wonder the former were so reticent to facilitate the rescue of the latter.

Therefore, it seems clear that Zionism does not care about rank-and-file Jews, what to speak of non-Jews. Zionism cares only for Zionism.

[eternal_spirit]

you really have nothing, don't you es?

You have nothing at all.

I have never met a happy bigot, racist or liar, it got to suk to be you.

Slander and lies in your delusional cesspit addled brain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1044818#post1044818)
since I cannot personally put my hands upon any of you Bigots and Racists and Liars
Morgenthau are you and him related?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nambo http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1012537#post1012537)
Whilst I agree with the anti-Churchill views, and more, (Churchill was a Jew instrumental in the Jewish NWO plot to destroy the might of the Germanic peoples by pitting them against one another, Anglo, and Saxons are both Germanic, we lost the British Empire, the anti Jewish/anti Communist might of Prussia was totally distroyed, in fact Churchill was a part of the Morgenthau plan in 1947 to completely exterminate the German
race),


Churchill's mother was Jewish


http://www.jewwatch.com/images/Bush_M18.jpg
Jenny Jacobson Churchill's mother was Jenny Jerome. Her father was involved in theatre investment and changed his name from Jacobson to Jerome.
‘Cunning, no doubt, came to Churchill in the Jewish genes transmitted by his mother Lady Randolph Churchill , née Jenny Jacobson/Jerome.’ Moshe Kohn, Jerusalem Post

In England at the beginning of the 1900s commenting that there were very few English aristocrat families left that hadn't intermarried with aspiring Jews. It was said that, when they visited the Continent, Europeans were surprised to see Jewish looking persons with English titles and accents.
Churchill biography (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-churchill-biographical-information.html)
Spencer-Churchill Family Tree (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-churchill-family-tree.html)

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-...sh-mother.html (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-churchill-jewish-mother.html)

If you look at Frederick Banting who's held up as a hero in history for developing, amongst other things, insulin for diabetes control; he came from Alliston, Ontario, Canada but this man was the top bacteriologist for germ warfare during World War II. When you read his memoirs and what he was developing, he was developing diseases which would wipe out everybody with a German gene in their body, and he said in his own memoirs and anybody can go and find the memoirs of Banting. He said "I won't be happy until everyone with a German gene is extinct from this planet". This is a great hero who's got statues up to him for helping children in diabetes. Yes, and also he developed a disease which would be spread amongst cattle and the idea was to kill off the food production in Germany and strangely enough has all the same symptoms as what we call Mad Cow disease today. Isn't that a coincidence? Every major figure they give you in history is really one of the elite and they are mass murderers.

"Germany must be turned into a waste land, as happened there during the 30 year War." (Das Morgenthau Tagebuch,The Morgenthau Dairy, p. 11).

http://judicial-inc.biz/jame.s6.jpg
The Morgenthau Plan
Henry Morgenthau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_plan), a New York Cornell educated Jew, was International Jewry's point man advising Roosevelt. He felt Germans were genetically evil, and advocated mass executions, sterilization, breaking the German state into three sub states, and turning it's economy into an agrarian one.
Roosevelt is also quoted as saying to Morgenthau that "We have got to be tough with the Germany and I mean the German people not just the Nazis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazis). We either have to castrate the German people or you have got to treat them in such a manner so they can't just go on reproducing people who want to continue the way they have in the past.


After the war, Eisenhower dismissed Patton for his lack of barbarism to the German people; Patton treated them as human beings instead of mass murdering them and destroying their factories as demanded by the ever hateful Eisenhower and the Zionist-Jews. Patton was actually condemned by the Zionist-Jews and their media monopoly for this.

To their delight; however, Eisenhower demonstrated the same fanatical Zionist hatred we see in Palestine every day and at Waco but on a much, much larger scale.

Eisenhower took millions of German prisoners and murdered 1.5 million of them in peacetime (more than he had killed in wartime). German prisoners were herded into vast enclosures surrounded by barbed wire fences. Eisenhower, acting under Baruch/Morganthau instructions, ordered them starved to death and tortured by vast stores of food outside their fences. Any German bringing them food was to be shot.

Eisenhower did not like Patton, Patton did not share his Zionist-Jewish phobia about Germans

At the Battle of the Bulge, Patton wanted to let the whole German Army through then cut them off and annihilate them, ending the war, but was overruled by Eisenhower. When the Bulge was contained Patton wanted to attack the the Bulge, at its base from both sides, cutting off the German Army which was exhausted and out of supplies and ending the war. But no, it was "attack at all times on all fronts" again, prolonging the battle, the war and the casualties. One report said Eisenhower caused more American deaths at this one month battle than MacArthur did in his entire three year campaign against a fierce and dedicated Japanese Army. (What if MacArthur had commanded the European Allied Army and Patton, the Army in Italy?) Tens of thousands of young Americans lived, thanks to MacArthur, and tens of thousands did not, thanks to Eisenhower.


Eisenhower used this to replace Patton as commander of the Italian Campaign with fellow Jew, "bonehead" Mark Clark. Clark had a penchant for attacking in the wrong place at the wrong time and could destroy an American division faster than the Germans. Now two Jews, from a minority of less than two percent of the American people and less than two percent of their combat armed forces, commanded the Allied war effort in Europe, proving this was a secret Zionist-Jewish war. The agents of Rothschild brought about World War II l

The Goyim are always used as cannon fodder as the Jewish banking cabals fund both sides and control over the stock markets/price of gold can help create wars via economic manipulation, it's the same old con throughout history.
THE FILE ON ANTI-GERMAN RACISM

Compiled by Michael A. Hoffman II
(except where otherwise noted).

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...hlight=banting (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51107&highlight=banting)

[kasalt]

300 missionary Messianic prophecies: proofs or spoofs?
by Gavriel Aryeh Sanders:
http://jewsweek.net/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Article^l167&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Stories& (http://jewsweek.net/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Article%5El167&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Stories&)

Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive Refutation of Christian Missionaries
by Michael Drazin:
http://www.drazin.com/index.phtml

Old Testament "Prophecies" of Jesus Proven False
by Thomas Paine:
http://www.deism.com/paine_essay_false_prophecies_of_jesus_1.htm

The Anti-Jewish New Testament:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html

The Failure of Daniel's Prophecies
by Chris Sandoval:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html

[rwederfoort]

The Source of Evil Exposed!

IN THE first century, many of the Jews were awaiting the arrival of the promised Messiah.(John 6:14)

When Jesus came on the scene, he brought comfort and enlightenment. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, tamed the elements, even raised the dead. (Matthew 8:26;
14:14-21; 15:30, 31; Mark 5:38-43) He also spoke the sayings of Jehovah and held out the promise of everlasting life. (John 3:34)

By what he said and did, Jesus fully demonstrated
that he was the Messiah, the one to liberate mankind from sin and all its evil consequences. Logically, the Jewish religious leaders should have been the first to welcome Jesus, listen to him, and joyfully accept his direction. Yet, they did not. Instead, they hated him, persecuted
him, and conspired to kill him!—Mark 14:1; 15:1-3, 10-15.

Jesus rightly condemned those reprehensible men. (Matthew 23:33-35) However, he recognized that there was someone else who must share the blame for the evil in their
hearts. He said to them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own
disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.” (John 8:44)

Though Jesus acknowledged that humans are capable of wicked acts, he pointed to the very source of evil
—Satan the Devil.

By saying that Satan “did not stand fast in the truth,” Jesus revealed that this spirit creature was once a faithful servant of God but deviated from that right course. Why did Satan rebel against Jehovah?[b] Because he nurtured feelings of self-importance to the point that he
coveted worship that belongs only to God.—Matthew 4:8, 9.


Satan’s rebellion found expression in the garden of Eden when he deceived Eve into eating the forbidden fruit. By uttering the first lie ever spoken and by slandering Jehovah, Satan made himself “the father of the lie.” Furthermore, by luring Adam and Eve into disobedience, he caused sin to rule over them, leading ultimately to their death and the death of future generations. Thus, Satan also made himself “a manslayer”—indeed, the most monstrous murderer of all time!—Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12.

Satan’s evil influence even reached into the spirit realm, where he induced other angels to join him in rebellion. (2 Peter 2:4) Like Satan, these wicked spirits took an improper
interest in humans. In their case, however, it was a perverted sexual interest, with disastrous, evil consequences.

Namaste

[kasalt]

Why Jesus Christ Cannot be the Messiah

by Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed. (http://www.bibleorigins.net/WebsiteAuthorBackground.html)

David, one of the most famous of Israel's messiahs (messiah meaning "the anointed"), stated that he knew he was pleasing to God in that God gave him victory over his enemies; this observation aligns with Moses' statement that if Israel is "right" with her God, he will give them victory over their enemies. But if Israel is "wrong" with their God, their enemies will prevail over them, taking their lives.

Jesus, another messiah, turns David's observation upside down and on its ear. Jesus knows he is pleasing to God not because God has given him victory over his enemies, but because he was willing to let his enemies triumph over him and take his life. This is the very opposite of David's understanding.

The Jews of Jesus' days "knew" their Old Testament. They "knew" that God showed his favor to his people by giving them victory over their enemies. They also "knew" that God showed his disfavor by allowing one's enemies to take one's life.

The Jews rejected Christ because Christ had not triumphed over his enemies. Christ's enemies had succeeded in taking his life from him.

Ergo, Jesus could not be a Davidic Messiah, because the messianic texts understand that the longed-for Davidic Messiah will possess God's favor by triumphing over his enemies instead of his enemies triumphing over him (cf. Isa 60:10-14).

From a Jewish perspective (based on the teachings of Moses, David, Isaiah, and Jeremiah) Christ's death at his enemies' hands was "proof" that he did not possess God's favor, God held him in "disfavor."

David speaks of God delivering him from his enemies because David was "righteous," he obeyed God's statutes and ordinances. Had he been evil, God would not have delivered him from his enemies. God is to be praised for he rewards those he loves with victory over their enemies.

Psalm 18:17-50
He delivered me from my strong enemy,
and from those who hated me;
for they are too mighty for me.
They came upon me in the day of my calamity...
He delivered me, because he delighted in me.
The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness...
For I have kept the ways of the Lord...
all his ordinances were before me
and his statutes I did not put away from me.
I was blameless before him...
I pursued my enemies and overtook them:
and did not turn back till they were consumed.
I thrust them through, so that they were not able to rise;
they fell under my feet...
Thou didst make my enemies turn their backs to me,
and those who hated me I destroyed...
blessed be...God who gave me vengeance
and subdued peoples under me;
who delivered me from my enemies;
yea, thou didst exalt me above my adversaries;
thou didst deliver me from men of violence.
For this I extol thee O Lord...
and sing praises to thy name.
Great triumphs he gives to his king,
and shows steadfast love to his anointed,
to David and his descendants for ever.
...I kept myself from guilt.
Therefore the Lord has recompensed me
according to my righteousness..."
David understands that the righteous will not be slain by the wicked, nor will God allow the wicked to prevail over the righteous in trials. God delivers the righteous:

Psalm 37: 32
The wicked watches the righteous, and seeks to slay him.
The Lord will not abandon him to his power,
or let him be condemned when he is brought to trial...
The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord;
he is their refuge in the time of trouble.
The Lord helps them and delivers them;
he delivers them from the wicked,
and saves them, because they take refuge in him."
Moses on God's favor being shown by triumphing over enemies:

De 28:1, 7 RSV
"And if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments...all these blessings shall come upon you...The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you..."
Moses on God's disfavor being shown by allowing Israel's enemies to triumph over her, taking his people's lives:

Deut 28:15,25-26
"But if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you...The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies...and your dead body shall be food for all the birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth..."
Jeremiah in agreement with Moses and David understands that God shows his disfavor by allowing Judah's enemies to take their lives, destroy their land and carry them off into exile because they have sinned and refused to obey God's commands, statutes and laws. The Jews who have fled to Egypt after the fall of Jerusalem are complaining that since they have stopped worshipping the queen of heaven, misfortune has befallen them because the queen is unhappy and angry with them for no longer honoring her with sacrifices. Jeremiah "corrects" them: Their misfortunes are because they have failed to worship God. In other words God does not reward his faithful by allowing them to be destroyed by their enemies, he destroys the enemy, rescuing those he loves:

Jewish women in Egypt to Jeremiah (Jer 44:18):
"But since we left off burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out libations to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by sword and by famine."
Jeremiah's reply (Jer 44:23):
"It is because you burned incense, and because you sinned against the Lord and did not obey the voice of the Lord or walk in his statutes and in his testimonies, that this evil has befallen you."
From the above verses it is quite clear that Jesus does not qualify as possessing God's "favor" by the standards laid out in the Old Testament for God allowed this "messiah" to be publicly humiliated by being slapped, beaten, scourged, mocked, then executed upon a cross in a slow, painful, death.

The Old Testament texts understood that the Davidic Messiah would be a righteous man. Jesus' followers claimed that he was not only righteous but also without sin, thus he qualified as the Davidic messiah.

The problem?

Christ failed the "proof-test" for a righteous man.

Moses, David and Jeremiah had declared God would not allow a righteous man's enemies to defeat and kill him.

Christ's death was then "proof" that the claims of his followers that he was righteous and without sin were false, they were liars and deluded, for had Jesus truly been "without sin" God would have let the Jews know this by causing Jesus' enemies to defeated, sparing his life, and placing him on the throne of David at Jerusalem.

Jesus being a devout Jew and well-acquainted with scripture would have known Moses', David's and Jeremiah's teachings that God would not allow a righteous man's life to be taken from him by his enemies. Hence, apparently, the reason for Jesus' final words: "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

In the final moments before his death as his life force ebbed out of him he realized that God was not going to "defeat" his enemies as promised by Moses and David, his enemies had triumphed over him, taking his life.

As an observant Jew Jesus Christ "knew" that the sign of God's favor was that a righteous man would defeat and destroy his enemies while a sinner would be destroyed by his enemies.

The Jewish priests, scribes and elders "knew" their scripture, that Moses and David had said God's sign of favor for determining who is a righteous man was that his life would be spared and his enemies delivered into his hands to be destroyed, hence the reason they demanded a "sign" of Jesus: if he was truely rigtheous why was God allowing him to be executed by his enemies?

Matthew 27:41-50 RSV
"...the chief priests, with the scribes and elders mocked him, saying, "He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, "I am the Son of God."...about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" that is, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?"...And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit."
Rabbi Sandmel (1956) wrote a book for Jews to help them understand Christian beliefs by examining the teachings of the New Testament. He contrasted Jewish vs. Christian beliefs. He noted that Saint Paul acknowledged that Christ's execution was a "stumbling block" for Jews preventing them from accepting him as the longed-for post-exilic messiah (My note: Paul and the writers of the New Testament however, were "silent" about Ezekiel's portrayal of the messiah's nature, when he would appear, and what he would do). The Gentiles regarded the claims that Christ had been resurrected as folly or madness, dead people did not come back to life, Christian claims were absurd.

Rabbi Sandmel:
"That Christ was crucified was in part a difficult problem for Church apologetics, "a stumbling block to Jews and a folly to Gentiles" (I Cor 1:23). But Paul argues that it attests to the "power of God and the wisdom of God" (I Cor 1:24)...Crucifixion thus was not a defeat for Christ, but necessarily paved the way to the triumph of resurrection."
(p. 58. "Paul's doctrine of Christ." Rabbi Samuel Sandmel. A Jewish Understanding of the New Testament. Woodstock, Vermont. Jewish Lights Publishing. 1st edition 1956 Hebrew Union College. 3rd edition 2005)

Moses informs Israel that an executed criminal's body shall not hang all night upon a tree, for anyone hanged on a tree is ACCURSED BY GOD. So, God has shown His disfavor to Jesus by not only allowing his enemies to take his life from him, they have also hanged him on a tree (the cross) to show once again Jesus does not have God's favor, he is accursed by God:

Deuteronomy 21: 22 RSV
"And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is accursed by God, you shall not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance."
Christians freely admit Jesus was indeed accursed by God, but not because he personally sinned against God (He was without Sin and Righteous), but because he "took on symbolically" the sins of the world. Below, Peter addresses the Jewish Sanhedrin:

Acts 5:30
"...Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree."
Acts 10:39
"...They put him to death by hanging him on a tree..."
Acts 13:29
"...they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb..."
Saint Paul on Christ being "cursed" by God the Father:
Galatians 3:13
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us -for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree..."
We see now that Jesus Christ did fulfill some prophecies: Moses' prophecies about what would happen to those who taught that the Torah should not be observed: they were to be executed, hung on a tree, and considered accursed by God as a warning to His people to hold fast to and observe His Commandments, Statutes and Ordinances, that they might continue to remain in His good grace and favor.

Christian apologists of course understand Jesus had God's favor because he "allowed" his enemies to prevail in taking his life for this is "the inscrutable will" of God the Father who wants to reconcile sinful man to himself via his son's death and shed blood. The Jews found this Christian argument to be nonsensical. Their Torah quite clearly told them that once a year on Yom Kippur God would forgive the whole nation of all their sins, so there was no need for a savior to be born and killed to redeem man of his sins and reconcile man to God; notice also that this annual procedure for absolvement of "all sins" is declared to be "everlasting" and without end, for all of eternity. God does not say this statute is in force until the arrival of a post-exilic messiah, it is in force for all of eternity, even after the messiah's arrival, a notion repudiated by Christianity. So why would God contradict Himself by changing His mind ending Yom Kippur and replacing it with Christianity and a slain savior? It makes no sense.

Leviticus 16:30-34 RSV
"...for on this day ATONEMENT SHALL BE MADE FOR YOU, to cleanse you; from ALL YOUR SINS you shall be clean before the Lord...the priest...shall make atonement...for ALL THE PEOPLE of the assembly. And this shall be an EVERLASTING STATUTE for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of ALL THEIR SINS. And Moses did as the Lord commanded him."
Christians claim God has "blinded" the Jews in order to make salvation available to the gentiles who will believe that Christ is the Messiah, causing the Jews to erroneously think Christ was unrighteous and accursed by God because he did not deliver him from his enemies as prophecized by Moses, David and Jeremiah.

We have a dilemma here. If the Old Testament is the Word of God and God declared via Moses, David, and Jeremiah that he will deliver the righteous from the wicked and not allow their deaths to be accomplished by their enemies, then Christian claims are nullified and Christ's public humiliation and death is "proof" he was not righteous and thus he was unqualified to be a Messiah.

If Christian claims are correct, then the Holy Spirit that inspired Moses, David and Jeremiah to declare that the righteous will be protected and their lives will not be taken by the wicked erred most grievously.

The Holy Spirit is not supposed to contradict itself, but it did here in allowing a supposedly righteous man (Jesus Christ) to be slain by his wicked, evil, enemies.

As noted earlier, above, the Jews "knew" their sacred texts, they knew from the prophet Ezekiel that the longed-for messiah was not free of sin and Jesus' followers claims that Christ was "without any sin" was a slap-in-the-face to the Holy Spirit who had caused Ezekiel to understand that the messiah was a sinner, for the longed-for messiah offers the blood of slain bulls to expiate himself of his sins (Ez 45:22) and the sins of his people (Ez 45:23), a notion contradicting Christian claims of the messiah being free of sin, and that the blood of bulls as sin offerings has ended as Christ's shed blood ends sin offerings in the form of slain animals. This messiah would also insure that all of God's ordinances and statutes would be obeyed (Ez 37:24-26), a notion repudiated by Christians via Saint Paul's teachings who stated that Christ's death and shed blood had ended the observance of the Mosaic statutes and ordinances for Christians. The priests serving God under this longed-for messiah would not be uncircumcised gentiles (uncircumcised gentile Christians) but circumcised Levites (Ez 44:7-10).

Ezekiel 37:24-26 RSV
"My servant David shall be king over them; they shall have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes...David my servant shall be their PRINCE for ever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them..."
Ez 44:7-10 RSV
"O house of Israel, let there be an end to all your abominations, in admitting foreigners, UNCIRCUMCISED heart and FLESH, to be in my sanctuary, profaning it...No foreigner, UNCIRCUMCISED in heart and FLESH, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary."
Ezekiel on the PRINCE (messiah) offering a slain bull for his sins:
Ez 45:21-22 RSV
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall celebrate the feast of passover, and for seven days unleavened bread shall be eaten. On that day the PRINCE SHALL PROVIDE FOR HIMSELF and all the people of the land A YOUNG BULL FOR A SIN OFFERING."
That's right, read it again! The PRINCE (MESSIAH) will provide for HIMSELF a bull sin-offering for his sins!

Ezekiel on the longed-for post-exilic messiah offering slain animals as SIN OFFERINGS on behalf of his people _contra_ Christian notions that Christ's shed blood has done away with sin-offerings (note: "HE" is referring to the "PRINCE" or "MESSIAH" making SIN-OFFERINGS):
Ez 45:23-25 RSV
"And on the seven days of the festival HE SHALL PROVIDE AS A BURNT OFFERING to the Lord seven young bulls and seven rams without blemish, on each of the seven days; and a he-goat FOR A SIN OFFERING...In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month and for the seven days of the feast, HE SHALL MAKE THE SAME PROVISION FOR SIN OFFERINGS, burnt offerings, and cereal offerings, and for the oil."
That's right, read it again! The future Messiah will provide bulls and goats to be slain as sin-offerings for GOD'S PEOPLE in the Messianic Age contra Christian teachings!

As is quite clear from the Holy Spirit speaking through Ezekiel, the longed-for Davidic-Messiah will offer on a yearly basis for all of eternity the blood of slain bulls and other animals as a sin offering for (1) himself and (2) his people, a notion denied and repudiated by Christianity, who claims their messiah was without sin and that he (Jesus) does not offer the blood of slain bulls to expiate his followers (Christian's) sins in the Messianic age for it is his shed blood that has ended sin-offerings via slain animals.
...
Ezekiel is ignored and passed over with "silence" in Christianity's New Testament.

Perhaps the reason for this "silence" is that Christians realized that Ezekiel's portrayal of the longed-for post-exilic messiah contradicted and repudiated Christian teachings about Jesus Christ being righteous and without sin?

Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/WhyJesusChristCannotbetheMessiah.html

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

your source has ignored important Timelines, even the Orthodox Rabbinate is aware the Time for the Messiah has come....and gone:

Readers may find these responses VERY Illuminating:

Good question…why should we believe Jesus was the Messiah, if He didn’t fulfill all the prophecies when He was here?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/falsechrist.html


On...was Jesus a failure as a Messiah?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qjesus1.html


Was Jesus really fraudulent, dishonest, sacrilegious, and conspiratorial?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hnoblood2.html

Jesus, the hate-monger?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hhate.html

Any other questions? Try here:


http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hway.html

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/Is%20Judaism%20the%20Religion%20of%20Moses--April%2030%20%202000.pdf

......Moses said, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy
brethren, LIKE UNTO ME; unto him ye shall hearken." Then God says, "I will raise them up a
prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put mv words in his mouth; and he
shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever
will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Notice! There was to be another prophet like Moses, In other words, another lawgiver was to
arise. Why was this necessary? Because the people had not been given by Moses the complete
spiritual revelation of God! Isaiah 42:21 prophesied there was One coming who would
"MAGNIFY the Law and make it honourable."
By the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, that Prophet still had not come!
In New Testament times, the Jews were still looking for that prophet who was to be like a God
to Israel and have the power of being lawgiver, as Moses had been! When John the Baptist
appeared in Judea, he was questioned as to who he was. "And this is the record of John, when the
Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and
denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And when they asked him, What then? Art thou
Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou THAT PROPHET? And he answered, No" (John
1:19-21).
Who Was That Prophet?
There has been only One individual since the time of Moses to fulfill the role of Lawgiver and
God. This One is Jesus Christ! He fulfilled the role of THAT PROPHET to the letter. Even many
of the Jews themselves, after observing the mighty works done by Christ, recognized that He was
the One like unto Moses. Notice. "Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus
did, said, This is of a truth THAT PROPHET that should come into the world" (John 6:14).
And, by simply reviewing the "Sermon on the Mount" we can easily perceive that Jesus was
the lawgiver that was to come. Notice the successive statements of Jesus: "Ye have heard that it
hath been said ... but I say unto you" (Matt. 5:21, 22, 27, 28, 31, 32, etc.). Jesus gave the true
spiritual meaning of the Law. He, in effect, was giving new commandments (e.g., John 13:34)–
and commandments which magnified the ones given of old (Isa. 42:21).
The teaching of Jesus was also to complete the final written revelation of God–the Bible!

ALSO:

Response to...
"The Fabulous Prophecies of the Messiah"
There are various alleged genealogical prophecies about the ancestry of the Messiah. It is claimed that Genesis 22:18 and 12:2-3 are prophecies that the Messiah will be a descendent of Abraham, but these verses say nothing about the Messiah. They say simply that the descendants of Abraham will be blessed.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fabprof4.html

[kasalt]

your source has ignored important Timelines, even the Orthodox Rabbinate is aware the Time for the Messiah has come....and gone

You have come to this conclusion based on insufficient information. The source does deal with Timelines, albeit on another page of his website. Here is the link:

http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html

And here are the quotes dealing with the Timelines:

A Jewish apologist, David Klinghoffer recently authored a book (2005) explaining "why" the Jews rejected Jesus Christ as being the Messiah. His comments are worth quoting...But the Messiah's coming would not be a product of happenstance. The pre-eminent condition that would cause him to appear was repentance. The book of Deuteronomy said just this. There, Moses had spoken prophetically of a time when the people Israel were dispersed everywhere in the world but then repented, re-embraced God's commandments, and were subsequently were gathered together again. "It will be that when all these things come upon you -the blessing and the curse that I presented before you- then you will take it to heart among all the nations where the Lord, your God, has dispersed you; and you will return unto the Lord, your God, and listen to His voice, according to everything that I command you today...You shall return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and perform all His commandments that I command you today...The Lord will return to rejoice over you for good...when you listen to the voice of the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His decrees, that are written in this book of the Torah...God's rejoicing and the return of the exile were tied explicitly with the "commandments and...decrees that are written in this book of the Torah."
Klinghoffer cites Ezekiel as being helpful for establishing the preconditions that must be in place before the Messiah's appearance..."We found that Ezekiel, in his 36th and 37th chapters, may be the clearest and most detailed prophetic voice in laying out this sequence:

1) gathering of exiles;
2) reign of the Messianic king;
3) a new covenant characterized by scrupulous observance of the commandments;
4) eternal peace;
5) a new temple;
6) the nations recognize God..."
(p. 139. David Klinghoffer. Why the Jews Rejected Jesus. New York. Doubleday. 2005)


De 18:20-21 reveals that God's people are not to believe a prophet until the prophecy has been fulfilled and to this day the prophecies have never been fulfilled.

[kasalt]

In these videos, a Jewish college professor analyzes alleged messianic prophecies:

Link to Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx5EKaY1B8g)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx5EKaY1B8g

Link to Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv0pgcHkrP0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv0pgcHkrP0

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

So what do you think, kasalt? the apostles were liars?

Messianic Expectations in 1st Century Judaism
--Documentation From Non-Christian Sources

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/messiah.html

[kasalt]

This does confirm my suspicion as to your 'Profession', now howzabout a 'Price Sheet'. lulz

'Prices' are negotiable!

Acts 8:20-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:20-23;&version=64;)

[kasalt]

So what do you think, kasalt? the apostles were liars?

Response in 8 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh38ygMiY5I&feature=PlayList&p=8D71CEDB225E5AE0&index=0&playnext=1

[novymir]

Christ was not "the messiah", duh, because there is no "messiah" outside of yourself. And that was his message. And that's why "they" had to get rid of him, and corrupt the message. Christ was like Neo, showing us how to become what we already are.
"They" are slaves to "them". And "them" reside in a higher dimension. But most certainly, not the highest.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Christ was not "the messiah", duh, because there is no "messiah" outside of yourself. And that was his message. And that's why "they" had to get rid of him, and corrupt the message. Christ was like Neo, showing us how to become what we already are.
"They" are slaves to "them". And "them" reside in a higher dimension. But most certainly, not the highest.

well said, the first of many to be perfected.

Break on thru to the Other Side.

"The Fabulous Prophecies of the Messiah"

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fabprof0.html

Question--
Why doesn't God give us Proof?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Glenn,
If I am right in thinking that the factual certainty of the TRUTH of Jesus's deity, and of the TRUTH of the existence of God, is something we do not have (since even the highest PROBABILITY of a claim/belief's truth does not necessitate the IMPOSSIBILITY of that claim/belief actually being false), then,

(1) why does God not provide us with PROOF?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/adam01.html

[kasalt]

Christ was not "the messiah"

well said

Yes, well said.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Yes, well said.

Thank you; I think you are confused, but I thank you anyway. :)
Extracting Text from Context to create Pretext is puerile.



The Kingdom of Elohim is not of this World

The Kingdom of Elohim dwells inside His people

Babylon versus Zion

The Mashiyach bears the Name of YHWH Tsidkenu (YHWH our Righteousness), he is MalkiTzedek the King of Righteousness to whom Avraham tithed(debateable), Avraham, Yitzak and Ya'akov are "in Mashiyach" and were trained up by him. Mashiyach is the Righteous King, all who belong to him are in covenant and married to him, therefore we are required to apply our hearts to his goals and his values (Jeremiah 31:32). The Mashiyach requires everyone to be righteous and participate in righteous judgments, these are certainly not left to a minority, much less to a ruling class, heaven forbid!

Mashiyach is a Righteous Government, NOT a religion

To grow in righteousness we must apply the standards YHWH has established for mankind. We must also be able to distinguish the truth from the counterfeit ideas of man's dead religions. However the concept of Righteousness versus Justification has been one of the most heavily manipulated aspects of Truth to make humanism and false religion appear to be coming from Mashiyach.

"Tsadiq" is commonly translated as "righteous" as it refers to a person.

"Tsadaq" is commonly translated as "justify", but better translated "cleared" or "made righteous"

"Tsedaqah" is translated into the word "righteousness" or "acts of righteousness."

Mashiyach will never endorse man's religions, governments or economic systems, so why should we? Mashiyach uses no creed or religion to transform the hearts of man, he reveals his Attributes and manifests Righteousness in those who lay down their life to follow him. By experiencing the Character and Perfection of Mashiyach, we are transformed into the Image of Elohim, then we are free to build upon the Common Good for ourselves and others.

If you understand the Netzarim Faith that Paul and the Apostles followed then you can better understand why they were forced underground after the Fourth Century. The Netzarim (Nazarenes) stood between Rabbinical Judaism and Greek based Christianity, seeing people as YHWH's precious creation whether Jews, Christians, Black or White, or Islam or Hindu or Buddhist. Most Christians want solidarity of doctrine that demands a pointed finger at other non-Christians, putting them in hell, but Jews and Netzarim don't put people in burning hell, this was never part of the ideology of the First Century believer. Willful and premeditated sin cuts people off and destroys their future in the World to Come and this is certainly hell but on a much different level, than does not spawn animosity and resentments towards others of various "faiths."

The old boys schools of the Harlot Church system will never release their trump card of "burning hell" to keep their sheep coming back to church and keep the tithes and offerings flowing. The big-time Christian evangelists pull on heart strings of family who are devastated by losing loved ones to burning hell, their purse strings are an easy prey for "crusades" and strategies to get relatives saved. This is why it is referred to as the Harlot Church system because the the vast majority of the modern Church is Babylon, the hierarchy of the Church epitomizes Babylon, the daughters of Babylon are the Christian denominations who condemn the souls of others to hell and refuse to regard the Kingdom of Elohim as an alternative to their religious tyranny.

There is only one hope for mankind, Mashiyach is the author of Peace and Justice, the Kingdom of Mashiyach welcomes everyone who seeks him, none are excluded. Knowing Mashiyach changes our world view and transforms how we respond to our needs and those of others. Once we accept his Kingship and enter into his Kingdom, we begin to understand the meaning of life and love. The Mashiyach reveals to us that it is impossible to find Peace outside of his Justice and Righteousness. Certainly a majority desire to do good, multitudes join religious groups to become better people and do good things, but the atrocities of war, hatred and starvation are all around us, daily destroying the lives of many. Man cannot be trusted in himself, he was designed to co-labour and co-rule with Mashiyach, he was not designed to make up his own rules and do what is right in his own eyes. Consider the labels we wear as Jews, Christians or Moslems? How is it that people came to be identified by the names of religions, instead of through the One who Created life? How is it that man's religions have become more important than YHWH and Common Good?

http://www.mashiyach.com/kingdom/kingdom.htm

The Mashiyach bears the Name of YHWH Tsidkenu (YHWH our Righteousness), he is MalkiTzedek the King of Righteousness to whom Avraham tithed, (debateable) Avraham, Yitzak and Ya'akov are "in Mashiyach" and were trained up by him. Mashiyach is the Righteous King, all who belong to him are in covenant and married to him, therefore we are required to apply our hearts to his goals and his values (Jeremiah 31:32). The Mashiyach requires everyone to be righteous and participate in righteous judgments, these are certainly not left to a minority, much less to a ruling class, heaven forbid!



Mashiyach is a Righteous Government, NOT a religion



To grow in righteousness we must apply the standards YHWH has established for mankind. We must also be able to distinguish the truth from the counterfeit ideas of man's dead religions. However the concept of Righteousness versus Justification has been one of the most heavily manipulated aspects of Truth to make humanism and false religion appear to be coming from Mashiyach.



"Tsadiq" is commonly translated as "righteous" as it refers to a person.

"Tsadaq" is commonly translated as "justify", but better translated "cleared" or "made righteous"

"Tsedaqah" is translated into the word "righteousness" or "acts of righteousness."


We have been trained to know Tsiyon (Zion) from what it is, and what it isn't. Tsiyon is greater than any and all of man's religions on earth, there is no religion who has exclusive rights to Tsiyon. Tsiyon belongs to the people of Mashiyach regardless of religion, race, colour or creed. There are also two Israels, one is the Israel of Elohim and the other is the Israel of the flesh, not all who are Israel of the flesh are the Israel of Elohim. If you can look at a Jew, Christian or Muslim without judging them by their religion or race then you are closer to seeing ZION for how it is revealed in Mashiyach. The Kingdom of Elohim is a government, NOT a religion.

Your continual negative thrust based upon enormously anemic authorities leads to your over exaggerations.

Check Yourself; Don't wreck Yourself. :)

Shall I aggregate my evidence so that you may partake of the evidence in a cogent and coherent manner, thus making you more fully informed to be able to render a more informed analysis?

[kasalt]

Extracting Text from Context to create Pretext is puerile.

"Extracting text from context to create pretext" is exactly what the writers of the New Testament did when they applied isolated quotes from the Old Testament to Jesus in an attempt to portray him as the Messiah. In fact, were it not for their fabricated prophecies, tendentious misquotations, and misapplication of passages from the Hebrew scriptures, they would have had no basis at all for the claim that Jesus was the messiah of the Israelites.

Would you call the writers of the New Testament "puerile" for extracting text from context to create pretext? If not, why not?

Your continual negative thrust based upon enormously anemic authorities leads to your over exaggerations.

Shall I aggregate my evidence so that you may partake of the evidence in a cogent and coherent manner, thus making you more fully informed to be able to render a more informed analysis?

Your continual use of fancy talking with multisyllabic words leads to your exaggerations of yourself.

Shall I simplify my evidence so that you may partake of the evidence in a cogent and coherent manner, thus making you more fully informed to be able to render a more informed analysis?

Check Yourself; Don't wreck Yourself. :)

[bendoon]

The Jews wanted an Earthly King who would get rid of the Romans for them and allow them to rule the World.

Simple as that really.

They still do and are still trying to (rule the world)

[kasalt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFO2LPUmNfg

[kidsarocker]

We all know that Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but few of us know or understand the reasons why. The purpose of this thread is not to cast doubt upon Christianity or Judaism, but rather to promote understanding and clarity regarding why the differences between the Christian and Jewish faiths regarding Jesus exist.

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

Orthodox Rabbi Shraga Simmmons explains why Jews do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

Source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

Question

Why did the majority of the Jewish world reject Jesus as the Messiah, and why did the first Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Answer

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David.!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!" (see also: John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus. Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

The reason Jewish rabbis did not believe Jesus is the messiah because when he was "crucified" (in Islam it is written that Jesus/Isa sould was taken up into heaven before he "died" on the cross) the rabbis thought that he could not be the messiah because he had "died" and that he never fullfilled the prophecies before he died - Thiis prophecy is described below..

Jews believe thathe messiah would liberate and return the Jews to the holy land, in 1917 the balfour declaration was signed when the holy land was liberated from the ottoman empire and the Jews returned to the holy land in 1948 when Israel became independent - where was their messiah? what they do not know is that thier messaih will be the antichrist/dajjal because they rejected Jesus/Isa as the messiah.

The European white zionist jews are not descendent of the israelite jews and therefore have no claim to the land (Rockefella & Rothschild own 80% of the Israel - these famalies financed Hitler - without the holocaust there would be no state of Israel) and thus did not return in the first place

[kidsarocker]

There are Jews who beleive in Christ as the Messiah, and alot of Jews beleive in Jesus as a man and nothing more. There are many refs to the second coming.

When Jesus/Isa returns, the Christians and Muslims will bow to him and say to the non believers "We told you so" and the Jews will look at him an dask "what took you so long?"

[kasalt]

The question of why the Jews do not accept Jesus as their Messiah is a serious one because throughout the New Testament, Jews are demonized for their denial of Jesus' alleged messianic status. For example, in Matthew 27:26, we are told that a crowd of Jews at Jesus' trial before Pontius Pilate condemned Jesus to death by stating, "His blood be upon us and upon our children". The Gospels even go so far as to state that Pilate considered Jesus to be "a just man", and that he only acquiesced to the Jews' demand for Jesus to be executed out of fear that there would be a violent insurrection against him if he did not agree to their demand. We are even told that Pilate washed his hands before the crowd of Jews, declaring, "I am innocent of this just man's blood", only to hear the Jews reply, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children!" This unverifiable claim that a large group of Jews took responsibility for the execution of Jesus upon themselves and their offspring (presumably throughout all posterity) has led to charges of "deicide" (murdering God) being leveled at Jewish populations at various times and places throughout much of the last 2000 years.

"Saint" Paul echoed the deicide charge in his epistle to the Thessalonians:
"[The Jews] both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16)
As if that were not clear enough, Revelation 2:9 even goes so far as to refer to the Jewish synagogue as "the synagogue of Satan".

In light of these calumnies and their consequences over the centuries, it is surely of utmost importance for Christians to understand why it is that Judaism has refused to accept Christianity's claims that Jesus is the Messiah. After all, the Jews have had nearly 2000 years to think about it, and they still haven't reconsidered their decision. Clearly, their minds are made up. How about yours?

[orlibonurb]

As if that were not clear enough, Revelation 2:9 even goes so far as to refer to the Jewish synagogue as "the synagogue of Satan".



That's a lie. Let's read Rev 2:9 shall we.

Revelation {2:9} I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.


"which say they are Jews, and are not"


Jews who follow their, satanic inspired, Babylonian Talmud still reject the real Messiah (obviously, just read the book and see why). God will turn to Israel once again thou, after the spiritual Church of Jesus Christ gets raptured out of here.

The war we see almost starting in the middle east, which is prophesied in the Bible as the war of "Gog & Magog" (which is different than the last war of "Armageddon"), will wake up all Jews. God will intervene in favor of Israel, not letting the nation being utterly destroyed by Russia, Iran and other Islamic nations - that's when they will believe.


SATANIC TALMUD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quTXwTjgfc0

[old major]

Cause they sicked the Romans on poor Mr. J. Christ, now they are scared he will give them a spanking.

Or....the JOOS know their book is a bunch of fairy tales, at least that's what my JOO friends tell me.

[kasalt]

That's a lie. Let's read Rev 2:9 shall we.

Revelation {2:9} I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.


"which say they are Jews, and are not"

Who do you know that goes to synagogue but isn't Jewish?

[orlibonurb]

Who do you know that goes to synagogue but isn't Jewish?

God knows, not me.


Luke {12:7} But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

[1977]

In light of these calumnies and their consequences over the centuries, it is surely of utmost importance for Christians to understand why it is that Judaism has refused to accept Christianity's claims that Jesus is the Messiah. After all, the Jews have had nearly 2000 years to think about it, and they still haven't reconsidered their decision. Clearly, their minds are made up. How about yours?
If that isn't enough, the "Jews killed Jesus" meme is purely mythological. Typhon kills Osiris (the Logos) in the Egyptian Mystery-Myth. Typhon was said to be the father of the Jews. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/th1/th130.htm)

Moreover (http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&dq=qabbalah+myer&cd=1&pg=PA93&id=ojTIOf8LCIgC&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false),
The Hebrew periodical Bikku-reh Ha-ittim, i. e., The First Fruits of the Times, Ed. Vienna. 1829. p. 18, says: "As to the opinion that Moses occurs in the ancient history of Egypt under the name of Typhon, we are unable for the present to examine into the correctness of; we will however say, that Typhon was said to be red haired (Artapanus, Eusebius Prep. Ev. Ed. Paris, Vol. ii, p. 35), but we do not know from what source it has been taken, that Moses was red." If the writer had consulted the Zohar, he would have found, Vol. i, p. 28, B'sar d'Mosheh soomaq, i. e., the flesh of Moses was deep red, and to it refers the saying : The face of Moses was like the face of the sun. Nowhere else in Hebrew literature does this or a similar statement occur. The statement is a proof in favour of the asserted fact, that the Egyptians embodied the life of Moses in the history of their Typhon, and also shows the remote age from which the Zohar obtained its ideas.
In the Gnostic mythos, the God of the Jews traps the Logos of the Heavenly Adam in the body of clay, reducing him to slavery.

It's our choice as to whether we continue sticking our heads in the sand.

[ex_anser_ovo]

I know some Jewish people. They are not all alike in how they see their teachings. They examine and dispute over their own scriptures like many other religions do.

One Jewish person I met said Jesus had very wise teachings, but couldn't see him as the Messiah. That person told me that the way he practices his Jewish faith taught him that the Messiah was to be a man who brings the true word of god to the people, and the word of god was what brought the peace. If you looked out the window and saw world peace, that meant the Messiah was here.
He said it could be that simple.

[christ4life]

The jews, or should I say zionist jews wanted a king with who had money,and a royal family. The poor carpenter Jesus didn't fit that so therefore he wasn't taken seriously by these jews. Oviously there were some jews who accepted Jesus because Jesus grew up around jews. I believe the twelve tribes of Israel are scattered throughout the land, and are not necissarily in Israel, and they probably don't even know who they are.

[christ4life]

The romans killed Jesus most jews went along with it. Pontius Pilot was a roman.

[ex_anser_ovo]

I sometimes think certain Romans saw the appeal of Jesus' teachings, and sought to cash in on it to their own advantage.

I was brought up originally to be Roman Catholic, but when I look back on Roman Catholic tradition and history, it seems really messed up.

Did Jesus teach people to worship him and celebrate his birth and death in very Pagan-like traditions.
Did Jesus teach people to march across the land and force conversion onto people.
Those are very roman like behaviours, and I think Jesus would be very disappointed that an institution rose up to worship him, and did those things in his name. :(

[phildee3]

The romans killed Jesus most jews went along with it. Pontius Pilot was a roman.



Pontius Pilate washed his hands in innocency.
He let the Jews have their way for fear of a revolt which would have cost many more lives.

[marpat]

There are messianic jews living in Israel who think jesus was the messiah but these people are treated badly by orthodox jews. I saw a documentary following the lives of these people are they suffer all sorts of violence and abuse.

[phildee3]

I sometimes think certain Romans saw the appeal of Jesus' teachings, and sought to cash in on it to their own advantage.



That's exactly what happened!
The only way the Romans could defeat Christianity was to absorb and adulterate it.

Christ still lives, though, in the prison that the Romans have made,
but the people are waking up and will soon overpower the prison guards!

[ex_anser_ovo]

Christ still lives, though, in the prison that the Romans have made,
but the people are waking up and will soon overpower the prison guards!

Even though I am not religious, I sometimes think that as well. :eek:

[phildee3]

Even though I am not religious, I sometimes think that as well.



We do not choose Christ - he chooses us,
and you have been blessed with very clear-thinking.

Religious discipline can lead to the absolute knowledge of this truth that you have seen.
Perhaps he has chosen you not to be "religious," for a specific reason.
He sometimes works like that!

[christ4life]

Pontius Pilate washed his hands in innocency.
He let the Jews have their way for fear of a revolt which would have cost many more lives.

I saw that on the history channel. I don't believe that is exactly what happened since romans wanted power, and Jesus was in the way.

[phildee3]

I saw that on the history channel. I don't believe that is exactly what happened since romans wanted power, and Jesus was in the way.



Who knows what "exactly happened"?
but that's what is written in the Gospels.
That's the story that we've got.

Pontius Pilate was an individual.
He was not "the Romans."
He had a conscience.

Is Lord Monkton "the British Government"?

[raphael]

Religious discipline can lead to the absolute knowledge of this truth that you have seen.


really/
list the steps re: discipline that ewe as an official bible babbler incorporate into your daily bread?
go ahead make my fucking day.
I would love to know the secret?

tell me what 'disciplines' can be found in the BIBLE that I cannot find in Confucianism, Taoism or Buddhist doctrines.

Eh?
Unless you can suggest what disciplines your bible babble has, that others lack, you merely present yourself as the FUCKING PROBLEM.

Thanks for making that obvious.
Fuck off with your holier than stance.

namaste

[raphael]

I saw that on the history channel. I don't believe that is exactly what happened since romans wanted power, and Jesus was in the way.

Do the funnyANDmentalist folks ever discuss any real history?
Or only your contrived scripted HIS-story?

What about the 25,000 years of HER-story that ante-dates ALL of your self-serving BULLSHIT?

Do any of ewe ever like to discuss HER-story?
What chapter in your Bible Babble HIS-story novella discusses those miSSing 25,000 years?

EHHHHHHHHHHHHH?

Ignorant plebes start their HIS-story lessons around 4 B.C....sometimes going as far back as the EXODUS.
However the Egyptian history says the EXODUS DID NOT HAPPEN. (or at least they did not record it)

how can you possibly have a discussion with a fucking reBLEATing SOB that does refuses to recognize, acknowledge, or confirm the 25,000 of HER-story that precedes the PATRIARCHAL timeline...

patri-IDIOTS who have intercourse with judeao/christian plebes = IGNORANCE is bliSS in ameriKA.

not much more needs to be pointed out.
Just plain STUPIDITY.

namaste

[phildee3]

really/
list the steps re: discipline...

...Fuck off



Would you like to make up my mind for me which you would like me to do?

Flip-flop!

[raphael]

Would you like to make up my mind for me which you would like me to do?

Flip-flop!

no I am curious what your judeao/christian holier than thou daily regime looks like?

fill me in plebe.

do you pray 5 times a day like muslims?
do you follow the 613 commandants found in the old testament?

I mean what does a plebe like you do?
eh?

just curious how a wanker spends his holier than thou existence?
by loitering these forums and spreading IGNORANCE?

What a waste of a fucking life...being one of satan's messengers and not even being aware of it.

namaste

[phildee3]

I am curious...

...What a waste of a fucking life.



Still flip-flopping?

You ask for info, then say you already know the deal.



Send me your recipe for stroganoff, will you?
I know exactly what it is and I hate it.

[raphael]

Still flip-flopping?

You ask for info, then say you already know the deal.

Send me your recipe for stroganoff, will you?
I know exactly what it is and I hate it.

stroganoff?

The only one I know I found in a Christian cookbook.
But it was called Strokin'off

Essentially it instructs Christians NOT to PRAY but instead to become MASTER-baitors of their small pathetic realm. :p:p
It shows the jerks how to jerk off themselves and others.
One big circle jerk = christians

phildee IS JUST ANOTHER PLEBE EH?
CAN I PROVE IT?
No I do not need to.
These ignorant bible babblers ALWAYS expose themselves.

FOLKS note how ignorance always takes a holiday when the interesting questions get asked.
The religious christian shit and muslim shite will always trade jabs with me....

But answers to my questions that reveal them as shallow fucking spiritual HALs?
That is when their IGNORANCE becomes so apparent.

BACK to the questions the LIAR LIAR refuses to answer.
I am curious what your judeao/christian holier than thou daily regime looks like?

fill me in plebe.

do you pray 5 times a day like muslims?
do you follow the 613 commandants found in the old testament?

I mean what does a plebe like you do?
eh?

just curious how a wanker spends his holier than thou existence?
by loitering these forums and spreading IGNORANCE?

What a waste of a fucking life...being one of satan's messengers and not even being aware of it.

namaste

[phildee3]

I am curious...

...What a waste of a fucking life.



Still flip-flopping -
you know what I do but you don't.

Now we're adding repetitive going-around-in-circles.

[raphael]

Still flip-flopping -
you know what I do but you don't.

Now we're adding repetitive going-around-in-circles.

can you answer 1 OBVIOUS fucking question?

why did they give a BLIND CENTURION a spear to hold?

I mean what is the purpose of having a BLIND Soldier stand next to a crucified CHRIST?

Oops that was two questions.
Betcha I confused the pathetic bible babbler, watch him start chasing his fucking tale/tail again .......
:p:p

namaste

[phildee3]

What a waste of a fucking life...being one of satan's messengers and not even being aware of it.

namaste



Do you know what "namaste" means?
It means " I bow to the divine in you."

So do you bow to Satan's messengers, or is this an even bigger flip-flop?

[phildee3]

why did they give a BLIND CENTURION a spear to hold?

I mean what is the purpose of having a BLIND Soldier stand next to a crucified CHRIST?



First time I've heard this story. Where can I find it (so I can see it in context)?

Ah. I've found it.
There's a legend that says Longinus was blind in one eye. When he pierced the side of the crucified Christ, the blood from the wound touched Longinus’ blind eye and restored his eyesight.

What was your question again?

Oh yeh,
Obvious answer:
You don't send a tough, healthy soldier on such a crap mission.
He was almost dead and tied to a tree.
Not real difficult to guard, huh?

[raphael]

Do you know what "namaste" means?
It means " I bow to the divine in you."

So do you bow to Satan's messengers, or is this an even bigger flip-flop?

Satan's meSSengers?

here is how it works dude.
pay attention

I do NOT subscribe to your chosen bullshit...I have mine?
Fair enough?
My official story does not mention a satan or a santa.

About 1 billion folks subscribe to your version.
Another 5 billion do not.

EWE are in the minority :p
So could you stop trying to have your tale/tail wag the earthly dog/god?

namaste

[raphael]

First time I've heard this story. Where can I find it (so I can see it in context)?

Ah. I've found it.
There's a legend that says Longinus was blind in one eye. When he pierced the side of the crucified Christ, the blood from the wound touched Longinus’ blind eye and restored his eyesight.

What was your question again?

A legend?

No there is a statue of St. Longinus along with St. Peter and Moses in the Vatican...
So it must mean it all really really happened. :p:p

And Hitler really possessed his Spear of destiny?
Another artifact manufactured in the dark ages to fool the sheeple?

But my sources tell me that St. Longinus, the blind Centurion went by the nickname of Odin. :p

HERE is what a literal self-serving jesus plebe MISSES.

Longinus = longitude .... upright spear = north/south y axis.

namaste

[phildee3]

Longinus = longitude .... upright spear = north/south y axis.



Interesting.
Perhaps you missed the correspondance with Lugh's spear and the spear of St. Michael.

[phildee3]

And Hitler really possessed his Spear of destiny?
Another artifact manufactured in the dark ages?



Maybe.
Maybe not.
But it is more than an artifact, it is a relic,
and relics have power whether or not they are "authentic.".

[raphael]

relics have power whether or not they are "authentic.".

like jesus?

what is the difference between the relic jesus, shroud of turin, crown of thorns, or the spear of destiny?
none of which can be traced to the timeline claimed?

it is all a nice little archetypal script?
like gilgamesh?

duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

amen

[phildee3]

like jesus?



Yes,
'cept I spell it with a capital J.

And, yes, like Gilgamesh (as an archetypal script),
but he was more like Yahweh - a bit of a devil.

[raphael]

Yes,
'cept I spell it with a capital J.

why?
Proper names are capitalized.

But a stage prop is not.

namaste

[phildee3]

why?
Proper names are capitalized.

But a stage prop is not.



I beg to differ.
"Cinderella" is always capitalised.

[kasalt]

God knows, not me.

Then don't tell me it's a lie if you don't know!

[orlibonurb]

Then don't tell me it's a lie if you don't know!

What I refered to as being a lie, is what you said here,

As if that were not clear enough, Revelation 2:9 even goes so far as to refer to the Jewish synagogue as "the synagogue of Satan".

This is what the verse says,

Revelation {2:9} I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan

When I said God knows, not me.


Luke {12:7} [I]But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

I meant what is in red: "God knows them which say and are not".

It is quite clear, it says "them" ; "which say they are Jews" ; "and are not" - "but are the synagogue of Satan".

It does not say the Jewish synagogue is "the synagogue of Satan". Read and understand.

[kasalt]

You are missing the point entirely.

Throughout the New Testament, those Jews who don't accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah are demonized, while the Jews who do accept that claim are sanitized. The reference to "the synagogue of Satan" in Revelation 2:9 is obviously a reference to those Jews who do not accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Do you dispute this?

[raphael]

You are missing the point entirely.

Throughout the New Testament, those Jews who don't accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah are demonized, while the Jews who do accept that claim are sanitized. The reference to "the synagogue of Satan" in Revelation 2:9 is obviously a reference to those Jews who do not accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. Do you dispute this?

Only a religious plebe, who belongs to a CULT of belief, guilty of Crimes Against Humanity would try to dispute the OBVIOUS.
That is OBVIOUS too?

>>throughout the New Testament, those Jews who don't accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah are demonized:
That would be those sent to the gas chambers to be cleansed by FIRE?

>>while the Jews who do accept that claim are sanitized = judeao/christian plebe lost in spacetime

MORE proof of the bankrupt spiritual CHURCH and the RC Judeao/Christians they have beget.
http://2012forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16036

namaste

[raphael]

I beg to differ.
"Cinderella" is always capitalised.

The religious plebes will dispute nearly everything eh, just for the HELL of it?

Duh, isn't that what I said, Prince Charming?
Duh, why Cinderella would wanna do the tango with a wanker like you, I have no idea.
Unless Cinderella is a fella?

Proper names are names of persons, places, or certain special things. In English, these are typically capitalized nouns...


your IGNORANCE knows NO bounds...often ending up needing to be classified as just plain fucking STUPID. :D

amen

[orlibonurb]

By raphaHELL


"and the christian assholes like yourself"

"I know fuck all about you."

"why because I use the word Fuck?"

"because of the stupid fuckers who take things far too literally."


"what fucking world do EWE live in?"

"Christian wackos"

"you just going to take sides, make stupid comments"

"The reaction of the ignorant sheeple like yourself is ALWAYS to be expected."

"fucking caught in a lie again."

"NOW who the FUCK sounds like a threat to LIFE?"

"christians are immature punks with a short attention span."

"Clearly I HAVE CONTEMPT BECAUSE THE SHEEPLE PEOPLE ARE REALLY STUPID human beings"

"Is jesus sitting on a throne in one of those ewetube videos?
fuck off if he is dude...."

"RETURN of the KING?
Are you a fucking cartoon?"

"fucking tiresome bible babblers are."

"your IGNORANCE knows NO bounds"

"to be classified as just plain fucking STUPID."



John {8:44} Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of [your] father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. {8:45} And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. {8:46} Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Matthew {15:16} And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? {15:17} Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? {15:18} But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. {15:19} For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: {15:20} These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

1 John {2:18} Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John {2:22} Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. {2:23} Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Jesus loves you, and still wants to save your dirty and rotten sinful ass.

Romans {6:23} For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[raphael]

By raphaHELL

"and the christian assholes like yourself"

"I know fuck all about you."

"why because I use the word Fuck?"

"because of the stupid fuckers who take things far too literally."


"what fucking world do EWE live in?"

"Christian wackos"

"you just going to take sides, make stupid comments"

"The reaction of the ignorant sheeple like yourself is ALWAYS to be expected."

"fucking caught in a lie again."

"NOW who the FUCK sounds like a threat to LIFE?"

"christians are immature punks with a short attention span."

"Clearly I HAVE CONTEMPT BECAUSE THE SHEEPLE PEOPLE ARE REALLY STUPID human beings"

"Is jesus sitting on a throne in one of those ewetube videos?
fuck off if he is dude...."

"RETURN of the KING?
Are you a fucking cartoon?"

"fucking tiresome bible babblers are."

"your IGNORANCE knows NO bounds"

"to be classified as just plain fucking STUPID."


Hey thanks for collating a 'Best of List' ... thank-ewe
Here is another quote...feel free to use it.

Why does my bliSS appear to piSS off EWE?
Your SS Holy Spirit subtly eSpouSed by the bible VIEW.
Sadly it is unfortunate that an aSShole like EWE, YOU and U
Ignore the archetypal clues, like Horton Hears a Who?

And because my journey has taken me down the most bizarre journey, quite the hero really, having reverse engineered the REAL meanings behind the swastika, the maltese cross, the pentagram, all symbols, that ALL folks of all denominations said I should ignore and avoid, don't go there they ALL reBLEATed, but because I dare...I have been rewarded with TRUTH.
Truth or Dare Warriors always are. ;)

But I linked them all to profound LAWS of NATURE being veiled from the PAGANS, by the holier than thou Master PAGANs, operating veiled as the Catholic Church, who have taken poSSeSSion of a TRUTH.
And anybody who exposes this theft, is claimed to be poSSeSSed? :confused:

EVIL is using jeSuS to help VEIL the SwaStiKA is the TRUTH, that I can prove, something we need to understand if we will really want to learn how to LIVE.
the dEVIL, EVIL, VEIL and how to LIVE are all connected... :eek:

And because one of the TRUTHs I have recovered is that SS = Holy Spirit = 22/7 = pi
... what else can I conclude?

:p:p Thus I love the archetypal SS = jeSuS too, I want all the holier-than-thou aSSholes to realize, just as much as moSeS, iSiS, oSiriS, dionySuS, etc...the list of SS meSSengers is quite extensive.
Look into it and tell me what you find...
Maybe I will let you script the SS chapter of my book.

ARCHetypes for Dummies

Just don't take the DARK AGES advertising camPAIN too literally.
Remember it was designed to increase Satan/Santa dEVIL market share. :eek:


Jesus loves you, and still wants to save your dirty and rotten sinful ass.

I do want to point out, as I proved on the "Prove Jesus Exists" thread, an obvious fact of life.
orlibonurb is just another pathetic judeao/christian plebe who does not take his own advice to heART.
It never takes long to expose these judgmental dEVIL worshipers, hiding behind their rehearsed cut and paste responses...

"forgive them lord religious plebes like orlibonurb do not know what they do..."

orlibonurb, is actually a god send.
His King James Bible babble version of 1611, coincides with the celestial TRUTHs I have been following.

King James Bible version 1611 was commiSSioned actually in 1604 and completed in 1611....a magical 7 years later.

Would this have anything to do with KEPLERs famous SuperNova witnessed in 1604 too?
http://www.crcsite.org/Images/Mons.h1.gif
'the Mountain of the Philosophers'
Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians
Note: the year 1604 in the lower right hand corner.

And the Rosicrucian took note of this celestial event linked to KEPLER too, in 1604 evidently, mentioning it in a manuscript published in 1785, called the Secret Symbols of the Rosicrucians.
And of course 17 and 85 have significance too. :p

:D It will soon become clear that ole' Raphael the archetypal archangel who knows the angles, has found the LOCK and KEY, ya bunch of religious plebes.

So you better come along willingly to the valley of TRUTH, or it will start to hurt so much more...

amen

[octopusrex]

Duh. They need the Messiah only on the End of Days.:D

[raphael]

Why don't jews believe in Jesus?

Here is a real good reason...

The seeds of Christian hatred for Jews begins from the readings of the New Testament and the persecutions began when the Church first held power to enforce its dogmas. The Biblical Paul, for example, put the blame of Jesus's death entirely on the Jews. In the first epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians (2:14-15), it says, "the Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets...." Also the gospel of John, makes it clear that the Jews represent an enemy (and John 8:44 puts the devil as the father of the Jews). Many prominent priests used Paul's epistles and the gospels as Biblical justification for Jewish persecution.

All these god damn racist bibles should be BURNED!!!! :mad:
2012 a bonfire of the vanities...

namaste

[kasalt]

All these god damn racist bibles should be BURNED!!!! :mad:
2012 a bonfire of the vanities...

I'm really not in favor of would-be thought police or their tactics.

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_Isurvived/Book-burning.gif

[raphael]

I'm really not in favor of would-be thought police or their tactics.



Fine maybe that is harsh.
They can keep their bedtime story that they use to frighten their wee ones with, to help keep them in line, just don't try to use it on the rest of us.
And these holier-than-thou righteous plebes can also apologize for their crimes against humanity since about 33 A.D.
Both the church and the christians need to step DOWN and apologize.
Time to come clean for killing all those jews, gypsies, tramps, heathens, indigenous non-believers.
How many tens of millions, maybe in the hundreds of millions, is just the Roman Catholic Church responsible for...christians and muslims and jews we add their kill count later.

Is banning the Buddhist/Jain swastika in germany the apology?
hahahahaha
what stupid non-christians we are.

Exactly what they wanted to happen.
duhhhhhhhh

The Confessing Church

Inevitably, whenever one questions the role of Christianity during WWII, Christians will quickly respond by providing examples of heroic Catholics or Protestants who saved lives, protested against Nazism, or had given their lives by dying in concentration camps. What appears most puzzling by these defenses comes from their complete lack of perspective of the history of their own faith-system.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm


amen

[orlibonurb]

Fine they can keep their bedtime story that they use to frighten their wee ones with, to help keep them in line, and just apologize for their crimes against humanity.
Both the church and the christians...
Time to come clean for killing all those jews, gypsies, tramps and thieves.

Is banning the Buddhist/Jain swastika in germany the apology?
hahahahaha
what stupid non-christians we are.

Exactly what they wanted to happen.
duhhhhhhhh



amen

What appears most puzzling by these defenses comes from their complete lack of perspective of the history of their own faith-system.

What ignorance, when that website you posted claims Roman Catholicism to be Christianity. It's all said there.

I've said over and over again on this forum, CHRISTianity stands for the death & resurrection and the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura). Anything else that is not scriptural is not Christianity.

You keep posting information about Roman Catholicism, it's all good. Just don't call them a Christian church. They are not, nor will they ever be.

The Papacy persecuted Christians during the inquisition, they still persecute everyone around the globe, be it Muslims, Hindus or even Roman Catholics. It's all for the coming spiritual & temporal power of the Pope.

I will start a thread called "[vid] Roman Empire Rules Today". Hopefully you'll get it for once and for all.

[raphael]

What ignorance, when that website you posted claims Roman Catholicism to be Christianity. It's all said there.



duh
EWE just don't get it.

there is no them and us...
ALL OF EWE religious funnyandmentalist are related.

EWE are ALL GUILTY by association.
Just like the Mafia.
I don't see good ones and bad ones.
All mafia are scum in my eyes...the wives too.
They know the score.
They all do the same work...
Just like the IGNORANT folk you break bread with dude.
All of the Christian witch hunting plebes like yourself who subscribe to one of the most racist pieces of literature ever written and adopted as a cult mantra.
;)

EWE should be asshamed, and racist christian scum should be at least flogged by other racist christian scum of a different stripe.
Watch them line up to do the job.
:p:p

amen

[raphael]

I've said over and over again on this forum, CHRISTianity stands for the death & resurrection and the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura). Anything else that is not scriptural is not Christianity.


fuck off hypocrite...I have been trying to debate the 4 gospels forever with you.

you always disappear.
this entitles me to call you an idiot.

unless you start discussing these 4 fellas...I will assume you know nothing of the scriptures or how christians are ignorant human beings that should learn to keep their fucking 'jesus theory' to themselves.

no proof = just a fucking theory

go worship jesus in your own fucking temple...your noise is annoying.
I have NO problem with that.
get lost.

jesus the serpent is just a theory.
AND THAT IS A FACT till you prove your theory. :p:p

shall we talk about those 4 Gospels, Irenaeus, a comment made in 185 AD, and a passing SUPERNOVA too?

anybody see the cut and paste bible babbler called orli?

mesatan

[orlibonurb]

fuck off hypocrite...I have been trying to debate the 4 gospels forever with you.


With you, I'll play this game.

You want to disprove the Bible ? Use the Bible alone and prove why it's not the Word of God.

You can start and go all you want, give your best shot. Then it'll be my turn.

[raphael]

With you, I'll play this game.

You want to disprove the Bible ? Use the Bible alone and prove why it's not the Word of God.

You can start and go all you want, give your best shot. Then it'll be my turn.

no I will use both the bible and science to show a middle road exists.

NOW you try to find a middle road between your witch/buddha hunting KJV1611 bible and science....
see I win already
duh
so shall we continue....
because I find IGNORANT PLEBES sport.

mesatan

who says there should be 4 gospels eh?
who decided?
were you a fly on the wall listening in when they decided which 4 Gospels to choose?
Why those 4?
Who decided?
Why those 4?
Eh?

Lets focus on those 4 canonical blah blahs
Answer all questions above...no science yet.

amen

[orlibonurb]

I'll take it that was your best shot.

[raphael]

I'll take it that was your best shot.

what a jerk.
we were going to discuss the 4 Evangelists remember, two posts ago EWE bleated baa baa yes?
baa baa ewe forgot already?
were you out hunting buddhas, and witches and anything not christian?
sad pathetic racist human being...

these questions are not tough.

what city is St. Paul from orginally?
who says there should be 4 gospels?
who decided on those 4?
are those in any way, I mean any way, even remotely related to the 4 Persian Royal Stars charted as far back by the Persians in 2500 BC.?

mesatan :mad: