What’s wrong about freemasonry?

[flyermay]

For the 2 months I’ve been visiting this forum, I read a lot of theories about freemasonry; many of them backed up by researchers, such as David Icke, and even some developed by the users of this forum. It is true that I read a lot of accusations; but on the other hand, I also read good defences against those accusations. At the end, one thing is clear: that not everyone agrees and has the same opinion about what is the problem with freemasonry (if any).

For example: some people say that freemasonry secretly controls the world’s economy and politics; through a legion of loyal followers situated in key positions of power.

Others claim that freemasons control the world through magik rituals, demonic possessions and contacts with spiritual beings and from other dimensions. It is also said that freemasonry hypnotise and use mind control techniques by spreading their magik symbols throughout the world.

However, there are those who assure that freemasons are not the architects of any plot or conspiracy, but that they are simply used an instrument by higher secret societies, like the illuminati.

But yet there are those who just accuse them of being Luciferians; some even holding them responsible for trying to abolish all religions.

The most moderate detractors say that freemasonry is no more than a social club populated by people who just want to progress in their careers, by benefiting from the obligations of all freemasons to help each other before any other non-mason.

Finally, I even heard many say that they are not completely sure about what freemasonry is or what they are involved in; but that freemasonry is definitely something sinister.

What about you: do you think there is really something wrong with freemasonry?

[watson_k]

I voted other. The Freemasons of present times are a philanthropic organisation. From what I've found on this forum, most of them have no idea of the so-called 'secrets' underlying their pass-time, if there are any.

Whether they know where the money goes when they've donated it, is also another question.

[flyermay]

I voted other. The Freemasons of present times are a philanthropic organisation. From what I've found on this forum, most of them have no idea of the so-called 'secrets' underlying their pass-time, if there are any.

Whether they know where the money goes when they've donated it, is also another question.

So... that would be like saying saying "there's nothing wrong with freemasonry" (it's fine with me; I'm just asking).

[chris_com283]

They are used by other societies to control the world

Seems the best answer for me. I don't really know much about the Masons, but I'm sure their organisation has probably been used many time to carry out certain agendas. Infiltration was supposed to be how they (Illuminati) got so big in the first place.

[flyermay]

Seems the best answer for me. I don't really know much about the Masons, but I'm sure their organisation has probably been used many time to carry out certain agendas. Infiltration was supposed to be how they (Illuminati) got so big in the first place.

Yes… for now, that seem to be the winning option (though I thought there would be more masons and anti-masons voting).

I think that there is no doubt that freemasonry has been infiltrated many times, and used for other purposes beyond those attributed to the craft. I recently read an article about the KGB infiltrating the UGLE during the cold war just to spy on the British government (which they though would be full of freemasons).

There are also evidences that the illuminati did effectively infiltrated American freemasonry; though I’m sure no freemason will agree with me on this one (as the evidences are rather vague).

[stewart edwards]

I think that there is no doubt that freemasonry has been infiltrated many times, and used for other purposes beyond those attributed to the craft.Have a look around masonic forums and you will very occassionally find masons complaining about this.

I recently read an article about the KGB infiltrating the UGLE during the cold war just to spy on the British government (which they though would be full of freemasons).I have seen a politician deny and look disgusted at the thought of being a Freemason. It seems that he, and I understand others, are afraid that their reputation will be tarnished and that people wont trust them if they were masons. Which doesnt really say much for masons, given the MP scandals just now.:eek::D Though if they were to become true masons (as opposed to simply fraternally initiated ones) they would be much better politicians.


There are also evidences that the illuminati did effectively infiltrated American freemasonry; though I’m sure no freemason will agree with me on this one (as the evidences are rather vague).If you can get Freemasons to agree on anything you would be doing well. Remember it has become anything to anybody (well me excluded obviously - probably the only bloke ugle has rejected in years:)).

[stewart edwards]

Now to explain my other vote:-

1. Freemasonry has simply let darkness sneak in silently. It is no criticism of Freemasonry, for the same happened to me over a decade ago. Once it is willing to admit to this it will be able to deal with it and become a much more positive force.

2. A lot of its problems are its own doing. Things that were once strengths like huge global differences are now major weaknesses. Strength in diversity yes, but just now you appear to have a muddle, a mess, a lack of global direction. Some fraternities appear to be addressing this better than others.

Once it can find the inner courage to admit that it is ill it will find the cure standing in plain sight, and it will reilluminate like a phoenix. But as different fraternities are moving at different speeds the masonic landscape is rapidly (in masonic terms) shifting. And that is causing frictional burns.

[thelonious]

Whether they know where the money goes when they've donated it, is also another question.

For what it's worth, most Masons don't even donate money. There is an annual membership fee, but in the USA it's very low, and often doesn't even cover expenses, which requires Lodges to hold fundraisers.

Any Mason who wants to know where the money goes can simply attend the monthly Lodge meeting, and make himself familiar with the Treasurer's report.

[fromthatshow]

Nothing wrong with it!

[watson_k]

Yes… for now, that seem to be the winning option (though I thought there would be more masons and anti-masons voting).

I think that there is no doubt that freemasonry has been infiltrated many times, and used for other purposes beyond those attributed to the craft. I recently read an article about the KGB infiltrating the UGLE during the cold war just to spy on the British government (which they though would be full of freemasons).

There are also evidences that the illuminati did effectively infiltrated American freemasonry; though I’m sure no freemason will agree with me on this one (as the evidences are rather vague).

Look at almost everything that started out for a Good purpose and has been infiltrated by greedy pillocks out for an extra 'buck' or that extra ounce of gold, including the American Government, no matter what anyone says.

[flyermay]

So far, 1 in 3 voters think that “there is nothing wrong with freemasonry”; and with 6 votes, it doubles the next choice.

I’m also surprised that no one has voted for option 3 – “They control the world through rituals and magick”, as this one seems to be the favourite of some researchers and forum members.

For those of you who didn't vote yet, mention that you are not limited to just one option; it is a multiple option poll, which allows you to mix and match as you like.

Note: I would appreciate if the freemasons from this forum refrained from using multiple accounts to influence the results. :rolleyes:

Look at almost everything that started out for a Good purpose and has been infiltrated by greedy pillocks out for an extra 'buck' or that extra ounce of gold, including the American Government, no matter what anyone says.

It seems that infiltration (which we talked about before) is not exclusive to freemasonry; David Icke’s forum is a good example of the contrary. Who said that freemasons don’t control every organisation in Britain? ;)

[grandsecretary]

So far, 1 in 3 voters think that “there is nothing wrong with freemasonry”; and with 6 votes, it doubles the next choice.

I’m also surprised that no one has voted for option 3 – “They control the world through rituals and magick”, as this one seems to be the favourite of some researchers and forum members.

For those of you who didn't vote yet, mention that you are not limited to just one option; it is a multiple option poll, which allows you to mix and match as you like.

Note: I would appreciate if the freemasons from this forum refrained from using multiple accounts to influence the results. :rolleyes:



It seems that infiltration (which we talked about before) is not exclusive to freemasonry; David Icke’s forum is a good example of the contrary. Who said that freemasons don’t control every organisation in Britain? ;)

I haven't voted and have no intention of doing do.

[flyermay]

I haven't voted and have no intention of doing do.

No need!

According to the poll it seems that there's nothing wrong with freemasonry (though I just read in another thread that you hide symbols in movies; like triangles, moons and torches). :eek:

[catfood]

Nothing wrong with it.
The more I look in to it the less sinister it seems.
All the masons I have had any contact with seem reasonable down to earth people. That sed I do think it can be and in some cases is used for unsavory purposes.

[mike martin]

For those of you who didn't vote yet, mention that you are not limited to just one option; it is a multiple option poll, which allows you to mix and match as you like.

Note: I would appreciate if the freemasons from this forum refrained from using multiple accounts to influence the results. :rolleyes:
I had already assumed that you didn't want Freemasons to vote, hence the fact that I haven't.

Oh and the crack about multiple user IDs has been done before, IIRC the Mods, at the time checked and confirmed that we don't have them.

It seems that infiltration (which we talked about before) is not exclusive to freemasonry; David Icke’s forum is a good example of the contrary. Who said that freemasons don’t control every organisation in Britain? ;)
What the hell does that mean? Are you saying that Freemasons control the David Icke Forum? Or is it a sort of a shocked outburst cos even here a lot of people just aren't all that bothered about Freemasons?:D

Mike

[flyermay]

I had already assumed that you didn't want Freemasons to vote, hence the fact that I haven't.

What the hell does that mean? Are you saying that Freemasons control the David Icke Forum? Or is it a sort of a shocked outburst cos even here a lot of people just aren't all that bothered about Freemasons?:D

Calm down Mike, they were only meant as jokes. But either way, what makes you think that I have any interest on this poll resulting against freemasonry? :)

[flyermay]

42% in favour of "nothing wrong with freemasonry".


Well, to be fair, if I count the votes in the "other" category, we could say that in the David Icke's forum there are the same number of people how think that there is nothing wrong with freemasonry as the ones who think there is.

[mike martin]

Calm down Mike, they were only meant as jokes. But either way, what makes you think that I have any interest on this poll resulting against freemasonry? :)

Well we are on the DI Forum, otherwise why post the poll?

Mike

[flyermay]

Well we are on the DI Forum, otherwise why post the poll?

But you are a regular on the DI forum, and I doubt you have anything against freemasonry.

Unless you can find any inpartial statement posted by me on this thread, or on the poll itself (apart from the description of each option and the jokes followed by 'smilies'), there would be no reason for you to think I created the poll to attack freemasonry.

What I'm trying to say is: what would be the point of doing a poll if I was planning on influencing the result?

[luciferhorus]

They are only Luciferians

They are most certainly not; on the contrary

[flyermay]

They are most certainly not; on the contrary

Sorry Lucifer, I didn't intend to offend you; I simply listed all the theories I could find (whether they are true or no). ;)

[paolo]

Nothing wrong with it.
The more I look in to it the less sinister it seems.
All the masons I have had any contact with seem reasonable down to earth people. That sed I do think it can be and in some cases is used for unsavory purposes.
That's what they want you to think.
That's why there's Masons here trying to appear reasonable and down to earth
I always find it incredible that master masons, general secretaries, and other low high ranking or plain high ranking are accepted as honest posters who would waste their time on forums such as these
They hold secrets by oath and thus are bound to lie
You cant hold a secret holder (closed) to be honest (open)
They must be liars (closed) rather than truth seekers (open) by definition
This isn't an ad hominem attack on the individuals, just pointing out the dissonance of their position

[phemohilia]

There's just something very wrong with a secret fraternity that people (men) join in order to further their careers or placement in society. As if they can't attain the goals they desire without a "secret gang" giving them a leg up over others. It just smacks of weak-ass bullshit. Instead of buddying up to other losers maybe actually DO something, like take courses or get job/career training and advance your place in the world the way Real People do it!! But the allure of joining a "secret club house" and getting spoonfed your way through life with secret handshakes, oaths and "brotherly love" well, I guess it's just too easy and tempting for some....

[grandsecretary]

That's what they want you to think.
That's why there's Masons here trying to appear reasonable and down to earth
I always find it incredible that master masons, general secretaries, and other low high ranking or plain high ranking are accepted as honest posters who would waste their time on forums such as these
They hold secrets by oath and thus are bound to lie
You cant hold a secret holder (closed) to be honest (open)
They must be liars (closed) rather than truth seekers (open) by definition
This isn't an ad hominem attack on the individuals, just pointing out the dissonance of their position

False logic based in paranoia.

[boots]

That's what they want you to think.
That's why there's Masons here trying to appear reasonable and down to earth
I always find it incredible that master masons, general secretaries, and other low high ranking or plain high ranking are accepted as honest posters who would waste their time on forums such as these
They hold secrets by oath and thus are bound to lie
You cant hold a secret holder (closed) to be honest (open)
They must be liars (closed) rather than truth seekers (open) by definition
This isn't an ad hominem attack on the individuals, just pointing out the dissonance of their position

So very true. Why would they waste time on a site like this??? Is their life that boring?

.

[flyermay]

False logic based in paranoia.

Not at all!

I can assure you that I caught various freemasons lying to me on this forum (though I prefer to keep the details for myself). And even though I didn’t caught you yet lying, it doesn’t mean that you are not only telling half-truths or even basing your answers in wrong assumptions.

[grandsecretary]

Not at all!

I can assure you that I caught various freemasons lying to me on this forum.

Me too.

[flyermay]

Me too.

I guess you cannot trust freemasons anymore these days. ;)

[paolo]

False logic based in paranoia.
Bollocks. If you hold secrets, as you say you do, then if any question hits the mark, then you must lie about it unless you want the secret revealed as the truth, which would destroy your position as that holder of the particular secret
It's not paranoia, and it's not false logic
It's a complete and obvious truism, however you want to spin it
If freemasons hold secrets under oath, then any comments that even hint at those secrets must be denied
You Freemasons, if you admit you hold secrets in your heart, must be here as liars and distorters
That can be your only role
QED

ps please note, I'm not here to criticise any freemason here personally.I'm sure you're perfectly, - well not so perfect- nice guys It just seems to me that their whole purpose here is untenable

[thelonious]

Bollocks. If you hold secrets, as you say you do, then if any question hits the mark, then you must lie about it unless you want the secret revealed as the truth, which would destroy your position as that holder of the particular secret
It's not paranoia, and it's not false logic

It absolutely *is* false logic.

1. You ask me about something that I, as a Mason, have vowed to keep secret.
2. I tell you that I cannot reveal the secrets of Masonry unlawfully.

Obviously, that's not lying, that's just simply remaining true to the vows I took upon my own honor.


ps please note, I'm not here to criticise any freemason here personally.I'm sure you're perfectly, - well not so perfect- nice guys It just seems to me that their whole purpose here is untenable

You say we're liars, but then that we're nice guys. But again, keeping a secret has nothing to do with lying. If you ask a Mason a question about Masonic secrets, and he tells you he won't tell you because it's a secret, how exactly is he lying?

Obviously, this is just a hypothetical example. Much of Freemasonry isn't secret at all, and is discussed in depth, both here and in a million other places.

[flyermay]

It absolutely *is* false logic.
You say we're liars, but then that we're nice guys. But again, keeping a secret has nothing to do with lying. If you ask a Mason a question about Masonic secrets, and he tells you he won't tell you because it's a secret, how exactly is he lying?

But the problem is that none of the freemasons who regularly visit this forum have ever said: "I won't tell you because it's a secret".

So, from that basis, we know that many of the questions asked should be a secret, but we *do* get a direct answer.

Therefore, we have a situation where:

The mason is lying (as I observed, and GS confirmed)
He is revealing secrets in a public forum (quite unlikely)


False logic? I don't think so...

[mike martin]

But the problem is that none of the freemasons who regularly visit this forum have ever said: "I won't tell you because it's a secret".

So, from that basis, we know that many of the questions asked should be a secret, but we *do* get a direct answer.

Therefore, we have a situation where:

The mason is lying
He is revealing secrets in a public forum (quite unlikely)


False logic? I don't think so...
The false logic is grounded in the fact that many here disbelieve the Masons who tell them repeatedly that the "secrets" are the tokens, words and signs by which we prove our membership.

In my time here only once or twice has some one asked what they are to be told I can't tell you that. However they have been revealed by non-Masons in the past but I gave my word not to reveal them.

Mike

[flyermay]

The false logic is grounded in the fact that many here disbelieve the Masons who tell them repeatedly that the "secrets" are the tokens, words and signs by which we prove our membership.

In my time here only once or twice has some one asked what they are to be told I can't tell you that. However they have been revealed by non-Masons in the past but I gave my word not to reveal them.

Mike

Let's see how GS would answer to that statement:
You make the basic of mistakes by suggesting that the signs, tokens, and words which are used by some freemasons merely to gain admission to a Mason's lodge are the secrets of freemasonry. Far from it.

But my doubt is whether or not:
Moderns believe that the secrets of Free Masonry are the signs, tokens, words, and their Rosicrucian rituals, just like the non-Masons here.

And either way, there would be no point on lying about the signs, tokens and worlds, because:
As you know these are ALL freely available at good bookshops.

So, allow me to maintain my position:
False logic? I don't think so...

[mike martin]

Let's see how GS would answer to that
Peter can answer which ever way he wants, as he is no longer a member of the Grand Lodge that I am, his answer will differ, that's real logic.

I won't go into all the muck slinging but GS resigned from the UGLE around 4 years ago to (he says to re) start the Grand Lodge of All England at York, it operates differently from the UGLE as he is at great pains to constantly point out. I'm suprised that you've missed that bit.

The fact that he wishes to bolster most any accusation thrown against the UGLE doesn't make him more trustable it makes him a different opinion. The problem is that he knows which bits are true and which are not, sadly he doesn't want to differentiate as he has his very own Grand Lodge to look after nowadays.

nd either way, there would be no point on lying about the signs, tokens and worlds, because:

Correct! So who exactly is lying?

In my Grand Lodge, the United Grand Lodge of England which traces its history back to 1717 (that's the one that people here are talking about, not Peter's) the "secrets" are the signs, tokens and words.

Mike

[the guy in pink]

Whether they know where the money goes when they've donated it, is also another question.

Yes we do, my Lodge secretary gives an accurate account of all income and expenditure of the lodge every month, My District Grand lodge, and our district charity publish audited accounts each year, available to all who attend the annual meeting, and that goes for Our Grand lodge and Grand charity. Every cent of what is collected is accounted for and available to each and every Freemason to verify and querie if they wish.
If you show any interest in these matters aqt all you will soon be asked to serve on a committee to help oversee allocation of the funds.

[rydeon]

I ticked not sure.

I've met Freemasons who are princes amongst men (I count one as a friend who is a 3rd degree).

But I've met others that are absolute shits and certainly let the side down.

I think it depends on the lodge and who is the main man there.

So my answer is 'Some are up to no good, some aren't evil and are trying to help out and some are just doing their own thing' :D

[grandsecretary]

But the problem is that none of the freemasons who regularly visit this forum have ever said: "I won't tell you because it's a secret".


I have done exactly this on several occasions.

[grandsecretary]

Peter can answer which ever way he wants, as he is no longer a member of the Grand Lodge that I am, his answer will differ, that's real logic.

I won't go into all the muck slinging but GS resigned from the UGLE around 4 years ago to (he says to re) start the Grand Lodge of All England at York, it operates differently from the UGLE as he is at great pains to constantly point out. I'm suprised that you've missed that bit.

The fact that he wishes to bolster most any accusation thrown against the UGLE doesn't make him more trustable it makes him a different opinion. The problem is that he knows which bits are true and which are not, sadly he doesn't want to differentiate as he has his very own Grand Lodge to look after nowadays.


Correct! So who exactly is lying?

In my Grand Lodge, the United Grand Lodge of England which traces its history back to 1717 (that's the one that people here are talking about, not Peter's) the "secrets" are the signs, tokens and words.

Mike

You are quite right Mike, I resigned from the United Grand Lodge of England in order to assist in the revival of The Grand Lodge of All England, there is no "muck slinging" involved in stating that fact.

Your posting makes my point entirely Mike.

The foot soldiers in your form of Moderns freemasonry actually do believe in many things. The MOst surprising are these:

1) The only secrets of freemasonry are the Modern's signs, tokens, and words.

All available in any good bookshop, so no masonic secrets there then.

2) Organised freemasonry began in the back room of a pub in London in 1717.

"... the first Annual Assembly of the four London Lodges that came together on 24th June 1717 did not constitute in any sense a regulatory body." (SOURCE: Jeremy Pemberton, President of the Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England, at the Centenary Conference of the Grand Lodge of Adelaide, June 1984)

Now this quotation is not from just anybody. At the time, Jeremy was the President of The Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England (its most powerful committee), and Grand Marshal of The Ancient and Accepted Rite.

"The 1717 movement was not a "revival," as Anderson has it, and recent writers contend it to have been. REVOLUTION is the proper term, as it was the culmination of revolutionary movements commenced more than one hundred and fifty years prior, and continued through all those years to gain the end aimed at. The movements subsequent to 1717 prove it, as the course pursued by the new Grand Lodge towards the York Grand Lodge was of the same character as before the revolution. The York Grand Lodge cannot be ignored, as Anderson and some writers of the present day aim to do. It has a record prior to 1717 and subsequent ..." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, London Grand Lodges, p.17, by Leon Hyneman, 1877)

What happened in 1717 was the misappropriation of Anglo-Saxon Free-Masonry, in London, by the Rosicrucian Brotherhood, "the culmination of revolutionary movements".

[flyermay]

Peter can answer which ever way he wants, as he is no longer a member of the Grand Lodge that I am, his answer will differ, that's real logic.

I’m sorry, but I really can’t see any logic on that statement. The fact that GS was for many years the Assistant Grand Secretary General of the Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales fully qualifies him to have far more than a simple opinion about the UGLE.

I won't go into all the muck slinging but GS resigned from the UGLE around 4 years ago to (he says to re) start the Grand Lodge of All England at York, it operates differently from the UGLE as he is at great pains to constantly point out. I'm suprised that you've missed that bit.

At the contrary, the only reason I quoted GS is precisely because I didn’t miss that bit; which as I said, is exactly what validates his statements.

The fact that he wishes to bolster most any accusation thrown against the UGLE doesn't make him more trustable it makes him a different opinion. The problem is that he knows which bits are true and which are not, sadly he doesn't want to differentiate as he has his very own Grand Lodge to look after nowadays.

In my Grand Lodge, the United Grand Lodge of England which traces its history back to 1717 (that's the one that people here are talking about, not Peter's) the "secrets" are the signs, tokens and words.

You just talked a lot about having different opinions and bolstering accusations and then you simply end up confirm GS’s statement.

There is no doubt that GS is right when he affirms that most freemasons believe that the signs, tokens and words are the secrets of freemasonry (as you just confirmed). However, he also happens to be right when he stated that those are not the real “secrets” of freemasonry; and whether or not you and other masons here agree with him is another matter.

[thelonious]

There is no doubt that GS is right when he affirms that most freemasons believe that the signs, tokens and words are the secrets of freemasonry (as you just confirmed). However, he also happens to be right when he stated that those are not the real “secrets” of freemasonry; and whether or not you and other masons here agree with him is another matter.

Maybe there is a confusion brought on by semantics. When people use the term "Freemasonry", they are generally speaking of the fraternity of which folks like Mike and I are members. This is fraternity is completely different from GS's organization.

Therefore, whatever secrets may or may not belong to GS's organization has no bearing on (and is completely irrelevant to) mainstream Freemasonry.

[monkeyboy]

Federal Reserve Act
was passed by
Freemasonry

while the same
Freemasonry was planning
World War One
!!!

no nothing wrong with freemasonary :eek:

[watson_k]

In my Grand Lodge, the United Grand Lodge of England which traces its history back to 1717 (that's the one that people here are talking about, not Peter's) the "secrets" are the signs, tokens and words.

Mike how can these things be the Secrets of Masonry? Wouldn't the meaning behind these signs, tokens and words be the big Secret? I'm told the (hand?) Signs and Tokens change every so often anyway. (Unless you mean symbols as in the glyphs that are used)

And the words will change when Language changes, so how can this be the 'Big Secret'? It's all out in public domain and has been for the last 80 or so years.

[grandsecretary]

Maybe there is a confusion brought on by semantics. When people use the term "Freemasonry", they are generally speaking of the fraternity of which folks like Mike and I are members. This is fraternity is completely different from GS's organization.

Therefore, whatever secrets may or may not belong to GS's organization has no bearing on (and is completely irrelevant to) mainstream Freemasonry.

Oh, it has a crucial bearing? How can any organisation that does not possess the secrets of Free Masonry claim to be mainstream freemasonry?

I could teach you your "secrets" in about 15 minutes flat - what then?

[flyermay]

Mike how can these things be the Secrets of Masonry? Wouldn't the meaning behind these signs, tokens and words be the big Secret? I'm told the (hand?) Signs and Tokens change every so often anyway. (Unless you mean symbols as in the glyphs that are used)

Exactly, that was going to be my point as soon as any mason answered. But never mind, I still have more on "freemasonic secrets" comming up.

Oh, it has a crucial bearing? How can any organisation that does not possess the secrets of Free Masonry claim to be mainstream freemasonry?

Exactly, that was also going to be my answer. It doesn't matter if GS, Mike and you Thelonious are from different "branches" of freemasonry, you are all supposed to be freemasons and you all are supposed of be learning what freemasonry is about (regardless of signs, tokens and words).

[mike martin]

1) The only secrets of freemasonry are the Modern's signs, tokens, and words.
You know as well as I do that is true. Your Grand Lodge may have different "secrets", however, your Grand Lodge is not the one that people here are lambasting.

2) Organised freemasonry began in the back room of a pub in London in 1717.
Again with the 1717 thing?? Why do you do this? If we believe Freemasonry began in 1717, why oh why would we ever refer to Elias Ashmole as most of the Masonic History books produced by members of my Grand Lodge tend to do?

Now this quotation is not from just anybody. At the time, Jeremy was the President of The Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England (its most powerful committee), and Grand Marshal of The Ancient and Accepted Rite.

What happened in 1717 was the misappropriation of Anglo-Saxon Free-Masonry, in London, by the Rosicrucian Brotherhood, "the culmination of revolutionary movements".
To be frank, who really cares other than you. Whether accurate or not, there is nothing that can be done to change history, unless Dr Who has joined you. 300 years is 300 years.

Mike

[catfood]

I have a question about the Freemasons secrets. If it is more then tokens, what then are the secrets concerning? I find it quit a sinister concept that it might be politics or finance as these affect us all.

[flyermay]

You know as well as I do that is true. Your Grand Lodge may have different "secrets", however, your Grand Lodge is not the one that people here are lambasting.

Just to clarify, if there is any doubt, the poll refers to freemasonry in general, and not to any specific grand lodge.

[mike martin]

I’m sorry, but I really can’t see any logic on that statement. The fact that GS was for many years the Assistant Grand Secretary General of the Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales fully qualifies him to have far more than a simple opinion about the UGLE.
So what you're saying is that his opinion comes across to you in a balanced and objective fashion? You don't detect the slightest bit of chagrin directed at the UGLE? Hmmm, you've either missed more than I thought or you just prefer his form of Freemasonry.

You just talked a lot about having different opinions and bolstering accusations and then you simply end up confirm GS’s statement.
Really/

There is no doubt that GS is right when he affirms that most freemasons believe that the signs, tokens and words are the secrets of freemasonry (as you just confirmed). However, he also happens to be right when he stated that those are not the real “secrets” of freemasonry; and whether or not you and other masons here agree with him is another matter.
He is, in some respects, like the degree peddlers of the 18th and 19th Centuries, his Freemasonry is older, more authentic, more religious, more secret more everything than the UGLE, including more expensive.

Mike

[flyermay]

I have a question about the Freemasons secrets. If it is more then tokens, what then are the secrets concerning? I find it quit a sinister concept that it might be politics or finance as these affect us all.

That's why they are called "secrets", because freemasons are not allowed to reveal them. ;)

[grandsecretary]

I have a question about the Freemasons secrets. If it is more then tokens, what then are the secrets concerning? I find it quit a sinister concept that it might be politics or finance as these affect us all.

No, they are religious.

[mike martin]

Mike how can these things be the Secrets of Masonry? Wouldn't the meaning behind these signs, tokens and words be the big Secret? I'm told the (hand?) Signs and Tokens change every so often anyway. (Unless you mean symbols as in the glyphs that are used)

And the words will change when Language changes, so how can this be the 'Big Secret'? It's all out in public domain and has been for the last 80 or so years.
The words have a very old source and that source is unlikley to be edited regardless of time. I don't know who told you that the signs and tokens are changed every so often but it is probably a misunderstanding of events from the mid 1700 that led to a change and again in the 1980s. Hardly every so often, I would say. Glyphs?

Who, other than our detractors say we have any "big secrets"?

Mike

[grandsecretary]

So what you're saying is that his opinion comes across to you in a balanced and objective fashion? You don't detect the slightest bit of chagrin directed at the UGLE? Hmmm, you've either missed more than I thought or you just prefer his form of Freemasonry.


Really/


He is, in some respects, like the degree peddlers of the 18th and 19th Centuries, his Freemasonry is older, more authentic, more religious, more secret more everything than the UGLE, including more expensive.

Mike

This, of course, is Mike doing what he has condemned previously, diverting attention away from the real issues.

Organised Freemasonry became established on 24 June 1717 when four London lodges came together at the Goose and Gridiron Ale House, St Paul’s Churchyard, formed themselves into a Grand Lodge and elected Anthony Sayer, Gentleman, as their Grand Master – the first Grand Lodge in the world. (SOURCE: Current website of The United Grand Lodge of England)

This is the absurd claim made by his Moderns form of freemasonry.

Mike, I went through exactly the same crisis before I resigned, on my own volition, an action that I am eminently comfortable with. You know now that there IS more to Free Masonry than just knowing which knuckle to press, behind or in front of a camera, it matters not. Try not to be bitter.

If you are happy with that, then good luck to you, but this is simply not credible, here or anywhere else.

"Hiram Abiff was probably never heard of in a Lodge until after 1717 ... The legend of the Third Degree was introduced by the newcomers into Masonry ... - Albert Pike 1886 (SOURCE: Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry by Charles Sumner Lobingier)

And here is a quote that I have not used here before:

"In 1738 Anderson brought out a second edition (Book of Constitutions) which was intended to replace the earlier one altogether, but it was a slovenly performance and the regulations were printed in so confused a manner, being all mixed up with notes and endorsements (many inaccurately stated), that it was difficult to make head or tail of them and to ascertain what was the law of the Craft. He also re-wrote the history entirely and greatly expanded it, introducing so many absurdities that Gould has suggested that he was deliberately fooling the Grand Lodge, or in the alternative he was in himself in his dotage. He died very shortly after. But this same ridiculous history has done duty in all seriousness till comparatively recent years, being brought up to date by Preston and others who were apparently quite unconscious of its true value. Unfortunately that portion of the history which professed to give an account of the proceedings of Grand Lodge and for which the official minutes were at Anderson's disposal is full of what one must consider wilful inaccuracies and misstatements." (SOURCE: Anderson's Constitutions of 1723 by Lionel Vibert)

Nothing changes.

[catfood]

That's why they are called "secrets", because freemasons are not allowed to reveal them. ;)

Yes, I don't expect an adequate answer.
Just expressing my concern.

[flyermay]

So what you're saying is that his opinion comes across to you in a balanced and objective fashion? You don't detect the slightest bit of chagrin directed at the UGLE? Hmmm, you've either missed more than I thought or you just prefer his form of Freemasonry.

He is, in some respects, like the degree peddlers of the 18th and 19th Centuries, his Freemasonry is older, more authentic, more religious, more secret more everything than the UGLE, including more expensive.

He is obviously doing free advertising for his new grand lodge, I will not deny that. But that doesn't mean that he is lying in any of his statements; and you have to admit that just because he was a member of the UGLE for many years qualifies him to know what the UGLE is about.

[mike martin]

Just to clarify, if there is any doubt, the poll refers to freemasonry in general, and not to any specific grand lodge.

Now you have a got a job on your hands because there are hundreds of obscure Grand Lodges and Orients whose members number in the hundreds (like GS's) that you're going to have find out about now. Not to mention people actually bothering to learn about the women-only and mixed branches of Freemasonry.

That'll make a nice change.

Mike

[mike martin]

He is obviously doing free advertising for his new grand lodge, I will not deny that. But that doesn't mean that he is lying in any of his statements; and you have to admit that just because he was a member of the UGLE for many years qualifies him to know what the UGLE is about.

Ah but so have I, what does that qualify me for then?

For those that want to, about 5 years as a member (attending Lodge meetings, visiting other Lodges, attending the Quarterly Communications of Grand Lodge and of course actually working there helps) is sufficient to get a grip on the UGLE.

Mike

[catfood]

No, they are religious.

Brings me to my next question. If they are religious then there must be some form of tangible evidence to support them or they would not be secrets, and would not be something Freemasons could hold in common with each other. As all prospective Freemasons already hold there own belief structure.

[mike martin]

This, of course, is Mike doing what he has condemned previously, divertin attention from the real issues.
Actually answering points made.

Mike, you are only going through the denial phase where you realise that there MUST be more to Free Masonry than just knowing which knuckle to press and how much to give to the Lifeboats.
Oh I know there is more to Freemasonry than that but that is neither secret nor a "secret".

Mike

[flyermay]

Now you have a got a job on your hands because there are hundreds of obscure Grand Lodges and Orients whose members number in the hundreds (like GS's) that you're going to have find out about now. Not to mention people actually bothering to learn about the women-only and mixed branches of Freemasonry.

Too late, I can't change the poll once it has been posted. Either way, I think all the main options are available to vote for. Now it's time for the forum member to make their own judgment.

As I said before, I’m trying not to influence the poll beyond what other members say.

[flyermay]

Ah but so have I, what does that qualify me for then?

Yes, you too qualify, but it happens that both of you gave the same answer: That UGLE freemasons believe that the signs, tokens and words are the secrets of freemasonry.

[deem]

I voted 'All of the above'. Everything wrong with the world, started with good intentions.

[flyermay]

I voted 'All of the above'. Everything wrong with the world, started with good intentions.

It seems that "all of the above" has been slowly climbing to the the 3rd place.

However, do you also think that freemasonry has/had good intentions?

[mike martin]

Yes, you too qualify, but it happens that both of you gave the same answer: That UGLE freemasons believe that the signs, tokens and words are the secrets of freemasonry.

Actually I write that Freemasons under the UGLE [b]know[/] that they are the "secrets" and unlike Peter there is no hint of sarcasm when I do so.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Brings me to my next question. If they are religious then there must be some form of tangible evidence to support them or they would not be secrets, and would not be something Freemasons could hold in common with each other. As all prospective Freemasons already hold there own belief structure.

Our Free Masons hold our belief structure, a belief in God and the immortality of the soul.

[grandsecretary]

Actually I write that Freemasons under the UGLE [b]know[/] that they are the "secrets" and unlike Peter there is no hint of sarcasm when I do so.

Mike

It is not sarcasm to point out that there is far more to Free Masonry than just knowing the signs, tokens (which knuckle to press), and the passwords. They can all be taught, to anyone, in about 15 minutes flat.

Pointless nonsense.

[catfood]

God, Gods
Satan, Saturn
1717

what's the day for?
to see in.
what's the night for?
To hear.
How blows the wind?
Due east and west.
What's o'clock?
High twelve.

My head is spinning with Freemason babel don't know whats true or false:confused:.
hoodwinked springs to mind:(.
Im off to bed.:D

[flyermay]

Actually I write that Freemasons under the UGLE [b]know[/] that they are the "secrets" and unlike Peter there is no hint of sarcasm when I do so.

Mike

Well, here are your two statements. You are free to interpret them as you like; it makes no difference to me:
In my Grand Lodge, the United Grand Lodge of England which traces its history back to 1717 (that's the one that people here are talking about, not Peter's) the "secrets" are the signs, tokens and words.
Moderns believe that the secrets of Free Masonry are the signs, tokens, words...

[strt]

Actually I write that Freemasons under the UGLE [b]know[/] that they are the "secrets" and unlike Peter there is no hint of sarcasm when I do so.

Mike

Our Free Masons hold our belief structure, a belief in God and the immortality of the soul.

Mike and GS, can you please clarify about secrets, there is something not quite right:

-Does UGLE has other secrets than mentioned ones (signs etc...)?
-This is probably more question for grandsecretary: Did you know about other secrets while you were UGLE member? This confuses me because if so then there are not mentioned secrets but UGLE members know about them (depending on rank I guess). If you know them but they don't, how you could learn them after leaving UGLE?

Thanks.

[flyermay]

God, Gods
Satan, Saturn
1717

what's the day for?
to see in.
what's the night for?
To hear.
How blows the wind?
Due east and west.
What's o'clock?
High twelve.

My head is spinning with Freemason babel don't know whats true or false:confused:.
hoodwinked springs to mind:(.
Im off to bed.:D

I see you are having a hard time, so I'm going to reveal one of the secrets of freemasonry: you have to join to understand.

[monkeyboy]

I see you are having a hard time, so I'm going to reveal one of the secrets of freemasonry: you have to join to understand.

is that the same as stand-under in leagaleese?

[flyermay]

is that the same as stand-under in leagaleese?

That seems to be part of the process, indeed. :D

Disclaimer: that was a joke, and should not be considered as a negative influence to the poll

[monkeyboy]

that seems to be part of the process, indeed. :d

disclaimer: That was a joke, and should not be considered as a negative influence to the poll

118 :d ;)

[grandsecretary]

Mike and GS, can you please clarify about secrets, there is something not quite right:

-Does UGLE has other secrets than mentioned ones (signs etc...)?
-This is probably more question for grandsecretary: Did you know about other secrets while you were UGLE member? This confuses me because if so then there are not mentioned secrets but UGLE members know about them (depending on rank I guess). If you know them but they don't, how you could learn them after leaving UGLE?

Thanks.

The United Grand Lodge of England has many secrets not known to their Craft Masons, men like Mike Martin. I have pointed out many to him, here, but he, and others refuse to listen.

None of these are "Masonic secrets" which the UGLE has never known, but are secrets about its religious, historical and political roles in society which it keeps hidden.

The Orders of the Holy and Royal Arch, which is where the secrets of Free Masonry are held, have never been practiced by the United Grand Lodge of England. The Grand Lodge of All England along with its Orders were forced underground and into exile, by the Moderns (the Hanoverians) by use of Parliamentary legislation.

"The 1717 movement was not a "revival," as Anderson has it, and recent writers contend it to have been. REVOLUTION is the proper term, as it was the culmination of revolutionary movements commenced more than one hundred and fifty years prior, and continued through all those years to gain the end aimed at. The movements subsequent to 1717 prove it, as the course pursued by the new Grand Lodge towards the York Grand Lodge was of the same character as before the revolution. The York Grand Lodge cannot be ignored, as Anderson and some writers of the present day aim to do. It has a record prior to 1717 and subsequent ..." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, London Grand Lodges, p.17, by Leon Hyneman, 1877)

The end aimed at, the misappropriation of English Free Masonry started with the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act (1794) and culminated in the Combination Acts of 1799 and 1800. This legislation included the: Treasonable Practices Act (1795); Seditious Meetings Act (1795); Unlawful Oaths Act (1797); Newspaper Publications Act (1797); Corresponding Societies Act (1799); Unlawful Societies Act (1799).

"The other thing that we have to remember is that Catholics, in those days, could be Freemasons. In fact, it was the only organization in England that afforded them equality within society since the day King James VII of the Scots (James II of England) had been deposed. (He had wanted everyone within the boudaries of his kingdoms to worship according to their own conscience.) With the Stewarts out of the political picture in Britain, "liberty of conscience" and the concept of equality were firmly ousted. This meant that politics reverted back to the status quo, and no one but Anglicans had any rights at all. In order to retain this status quo, all lodges in England, or as many as possible, were to be taken over, subverted, even eradicated if necessary. Although 1717 saw a new, London-based Masonic impetus, working to restore the Stewarts to their rightful inheritance, the plan was foiled after the failure of the Atterbury plot to overthrow George I in 1722. In 1723, at the end of the Duke of Wharton's grand mastership, the Grand Lodge of England was taken over by Hanoverian infiltrators. (... It is interesting to note, in passing, that the lodge's archival records, from its inception in 1717 to June 24, 1723, have totally vanished.) (SOURCE: The Knights Templar of the Middle East by Michael James Alexander Stewart and Walid Amine Salhab, published by Weiser, 2007)

The last of this repressive anti-Masonic legislation was not repealed until soon after the Second World War, 1945.

I learned certain things due to information that was supplied to me due to my own diligent researches, and the researches of others.

[meksar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9GAZxTLyNQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9GAZxTLyNQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwhVrSsBTxs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRWkoE_ePsM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbgMUKQ1JU4&feature=related

[grandsecretary]

Just to be ABSOLUTELY clear meksar, these videos are strictly in reference to the Moderns form of freemasonry.

[flyermay]

Just to be ABSOLUTELY clear meksar, these videos are strictly in reference to the Moderns form of freemasonry.

But I guess that all the members of the GLAE were once moderns, so what is the difference???

[grandsecretary]

But I guess that all the members of the GLAE were once moderns, so what is the difference???

No. Just shows you how unreliable guessing is.

[flyermay]

No. Just shows you how unreliable guessing is.

Obviously, I meant the grand masters, not the newcommers.

The point is, if all of you were moderns at one time or another, what exactly are you doing differently (apart from claiming older origins)?

[grandsecretary]

Obviously, I meant the grand masters, not the newcommers.

The point is, if all of you were moderns at one time or another, what exactly are you doing differently (apart from claiming older origins)?

We were not all Moderns. There is a total of 3 members only who were former members of The United Grand Lodge of England.

What are we doing differently? Everything. Does not compare in any way. For instance, there is only one Grand Master. His seat is in York.

Read the website.

[slartibartfast]

We were not all Moderns. There is a total of 3 members only who were former members of The United Grand Lodge of England.

What are we doing differently? Everything. Does not compare in any way. For instance, there is only one Grand Master. His seat is in York.

Read the website.

So why didn't you call it something else?

[grandsecretary]

So why didn't you call it something else?

It is called something else:

United Grand Lodge of England - the Moderns form of freemasonry;

The Grand Lodge of All England - Genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry in its Original Purity.

We are quite happy with this.

[triad]

Please, this is spam. Get your own site, for Jah-Bul-On sake!! :)

[luciferhorus]

It is called something else:

United Grand Lodge of England - the Moderns form of freemasonry;

The Grand Lodge of All England - Genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry in its Original Purity.

We are quite happy with this.

On Competing Masonic Brand names in the Religious Marketplace.

Lucifer

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uD6bOXlMx_g/RtZa7_YnvvI/AAAAAAAAC3A/elRvleXS-gE/s400/Divine+Heresy+-++Bleed+The+Fifth.jpg


The United Grand Lodge of England was allegedly formed by a few drunks in a London pub in 1717 and is today a Capitalist cult with 4-5 million members internationally.

http://www.clansinclairsc.org/smotj12.jpg
Above: Masonic Christian Capitalist "Knight's Templars."

United Grand Lodge of England according to the Masonic info site (see http://www.masonicinfo.com/allengland.htm) represents an ancient heritage of, as GS states, "genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry in its Original Purity" with an ancient legacy stretching far back into the annals of human history to December 2005, when it was allegedly also formed by a few guys in a pub (or wherever). This is a competing brand of Capitalist Christianity which attempts to utilise the Masonic name brand to promote it's religious product. Armed with an unknown secret membership which is estimated at two persons, the are obviously dangerous heretics and a threat to established Masonry, so much so that there is an entire page dedicated to ridiculing them at Masonicinfo.com.

I have attempted to convert the The Grand Lodge of All England Grand Secretary to Anarchist Communism and given him express orders to execute all United Grand Lodge of England Masons on sight, and given him a Papal mandate (an infallible order) to tear out their hearts, tongues and disembowel them upon the altars of their Temples, in order to prove himself as a dangerous heretic and revolutionary, but he has not complied with my wishes and I have had to excommunicate him from Luciferian heaven and consigned him to spend all eternity with the Christians in Capitalist Hell.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/images/alleng1.jpg

Under the laws of religious freedom, any drunk in a pub can start a religious cult, lay claim to an ancient heritage (which essentially all modern Christian cults do) and charge anything they wish for salvation, degrees of knowledge or whatever.

http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/sunrise/back/laban.jpg
Above: happy O.T.O. members. Certainly looks more fun than the various "male only" lodges.

"The history of the Ordo Templi Orientis is extremely complicated (rival claims to "apostolic" succession, mutual recriminations, and expulsions). Overlappings and interconnections are inevitable."
More on the History of the O.T.O on: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/intro.htm

If we were consider that there are only these two forms of Masonry in the world, this is patently ridiculous as there are numerous competing Masonic type lodges with substantiual memberships which are much older and more established Capitalist gangs than Peter Clatworthy's new religious movement (The Grand Lodge of All England) and yet are not recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England Masons. This includes the O.T.O and a myriad of other groups around the world such as the "Regular Grand Lodge of England" (see http://www.masonicinfo.com/rgle.htm, which is a separate organisation to the Grand Lodge of All England and the United Grand Lodge of England; it is merely that we don't have any known proponents of the RGLE and have to make do with the UGLE and GLAE conflicts on this forum. Like the Grand Lodge of All England, the "Regular Grand Lodge of England" also boasts of an ancient heritage stretching back to it's establishment on 5th of March 2005.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EQ5NSnnJZCw/SwHNJXq6HFI/AAAAAAAAAdA/JRRevzf6yEw/s1600/front_3.jpg

It is all very Monty Pythonesque and bizzare, much like the conflict between the People's Front of Judea, the Popular Front of Judea and the People's Judean Front in "Life of Brian"

"The various Grand Lodges recognise each other, or not, based upon adherence to landmarks (a Grand Lodge will usually deem other Grand Lodges who share common landmarks to be regular, and those that do not to be "irregular" or "clandestine")." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

In other words, cults not recognised by UGLE are heretics; it is rather like the Roman Catholics declaring all non Catholic Christians to be heretics, while the non Catholic Christians declare the Catholic Christians to be heretics.

If the various competing Masonic gangs would only move to the suburbs of Los Angeles, they could settle matters the "usual" way with drive by shootings and knife fights, but unfortunately these cultists generally tend to be "armchair" warriors who are simply accusing each other of heresy, and we will probably have to put up with their incessant ramblings and claims of orthodoxy on the Internet and we probably be unable to incite them to kill each other off.

There is much more hope in the Christians (Masonry is a competing brand of Capitalist Christianity) and Muslims attempting to wipe each other out with apocalyptic weapons than the competing Masonic Capitalist brands.

Lucifer
Judean Peoples Front Crack Genocide Squad (JPFGSS).
Please note that I have nothing to do with the Judean Peoples Front Crack Suicide Squad (JPFCSS) who are heretics and splitters.

[stewart edwards]

Luciferhorus

Dont forget the various, and not insubstantial French fraternities with a global reach, or the many many other European based lodges and fraternities.

[luciferhorus]

Luciferhorus

Dont forget the various, and not insubstantial French fraternities with a global reach, or the many many other European based lodges and fraternities.


Yes Stewart I am of course entirely aware of this, and I have mentioned in the above response that there are numerous Masonic groups internationally which are not recognised by the UGLE cult.

I was merely responding to GS's entirely fraudulent claim that there are "two" competing brands of Masonry (or even "English Masonry").

Of course, if the Grand Secretary had responded to my divine and sacred commands:

I have attempted to convert the The Grand Lodge of All England Grand Secretary to Anarchist Communism and given him express orders to execute all United Grand Lodge of England Masons on sight, and given him a Papal mandate (an infallible order) to tear out their hearts, tongues and disembowel them upon the altars of their Temples, in order to prove himself as a dangerous heretic and revolutionary, but he has not complied with my wishes and I have had to excommunicate him from Luciferian heaven and consigned him to spend all eternity with the Christians in Capitalist Hell.

Had he complied, I would be only too happy to recognise his cult as the "orthodox" Masons, and refer to the UGLE Masons as damnable heretics, however sadly it has not been the case and GS has been entirely disobedient.

Lux
Blasphemy, Heresy, War, Revolution, etc.

http://johnmichaelboling.com/artforgeorgelucas/wp-content/original/2009_09/political-pictures-darth-vader-blasphemy-style.jpg
http://www.uncommondescent.com/images/Blasphemy_Challenge.jpg

[stewart edwards]

Apologies Luciferhorus, it has been a busy day and I guess that I read your post too quickly. Sorry.