Should I become a Catholic again?

[neworderhorizon]

Hello.
I was raised as a catholic but converted to buddhism and I am thinking of become catholic again.
I know David thinks all religion is bull-honkey, but he refers to the Bible and Jesus allot to back-up some of his claims. Also some of his theoies of the after life are similar to buddhism.
I know most religions are corrupt, mainly catholicism, but I have also been hearing allot about the whole "anti-chirst" illuminati theories, which David also talks about.
I am very confused about what to believe.
Heres some videos to do with the Anti-Christ Illuminati theory including David...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTZzDP5Lm4&feature=related
What do you think?
:confused:

[tracker]

Hello.
I was raised as a catholic but converted to buddhism and I am thinking of become catholic again.
I know David thinks all religion is bull-honkey, but he refers to the Bible and Jesus allot to back-up some of his claims. Also some of his theoies of the after life are similar to buddhism.
I know most religions are corrupt, mainly catholicism, but I have also been hearing allot about the whole "anti-chirst" illuminati theories, which David also talks about.
I am very confused about what to believe.
Heres some videos to do with the Anti-Christ Illuminati theory including David...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTZzDP5Lm4&feature=related
What do you think?
:confused:

never listen to others , only trust your self , and if your self be wrong , atleast you know you chose the right to freedom to make that chioce .

stand tall , be strong
and if you decide
make sure you like it .

:cool:

[neworderhorizon]

never listen to others , only trust your self , and if your self be wrong , atleast you know you chose the right to freedom to make that chioce .

stand tall , be strong
and if you decide
make sure you like it .

:cool:

Thanks for the advice, but I have bounced around allot of religions and I don't know if I have been brain washed.
I would love facts, but unfortunately science and religion don't mix.

[tracker]

Thanks for the advice, but I have bounced around allot of religions and I don't know if I have been brain washed.
I would love facts, but unfortunately science and religion don't mix.

they do , all you have to do is loose the dogma .

being an independant respectfull human being on a spititual quest ?
im sure God would forgive you for that , even if it did mean breaking the chains that bind you just to find out .

go where your heart feels right , it can there for be -----------not wrong .:cool:

[uncia]

Thanks for the advice, but I have bounced around allot of religions and I don't know if I have been brain washed.
I would love facts, but unfortunately science and religion don't mix.
You'll probably have a better love life as a Catholic, as Catholic girls are so cute. At least, better than new age hippies who have been around a lot.

[belfast atheist]

You'll probably have a better love life as a Catholic, as Catholic girls are so cute. At least, better than new age hippies who have been around a lot.

i live in a catholic area, are you taking the piss?:rolleyes:

[zetetic0void]

Here's my opinion.


I like to browse various religions and philosophies and even mythologies (people aften use the word 'myth' meaning an 'untruth' but many myths contain symbolic truths for human experience and even though they are literally fantastical, contain truths).

My prime concern is symbolic content from these things. I'm not concerned with literal occurance of things in religions (eg... I don't think the Garden of Eden occured in hiostory as described but has much deeper symbolic meaning people can delve into ... including a cultural remembered reference to pre-agricultural organized society). Even our so called official history is written by people from specific points of view.

--------

I like a lot about Buddhism but like many human things, there are many forms now with much cultural attachments. Personally I feel as long as practicers see these decorations as decorations and not absolute things, there isn't a problem.

The Buddha is said to have said roughly not to believe everything people say he said (maybe he knew throughout time, religions eventually distort and exaggerate wise peoples words) ... find out for yourself.

---------------
There's also a phrase in Buddhism

"if you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him"


So if you find yourself following the Buddha as an idol, that is a problem. The image of the Buddha is not a God to bow down to. Ideally, it should all be forgotten.

It's easy for many people to sit at the feet of a guru and not do any thinking for themselves. Are they working on their own minds though or just clinging?


One writer suggested to extend this phrase to say 'kill Buddhism'(not to be taken literally or violently LOL). I somewhat agree. To many people, it is a thing they continuously cling to ... it has become an idol to many people. Clinging to things like that is actually counter to the Buddhist ideas of freeing the mind from clinging to temporary things.

------------

As far as Roman Catholic religion (or any Christianity goes), my opinion is that it has ben distorted from the start. It was not Jesus who started this religion ...... in my opinion it was guided early on by the Roman Empire. This religion took the place of the Roman Empire and I feel had tactical reasoning for it (ie, to secure the influence of the Empire even if the name and functionality changed from a literal owned territory to a realm of psychological influence of many regions.)


My view of Jesus is as an enlightened man like a Buddha but he was killed for blasphemy and being an annoyance to the powers-that-be (actually I have doubts he was actually killed ... the duration of crucifiction was short and I wonder if the shrine in Kashmir does really contain the human Jesus - the one with the plaque with feet with nail marks in it). The powers-that-be often kill off annoying people who are collecting too much attention from the masses.

I feel that the Roman Catholic Church took his popularity, and altered it by making him the one son of "God" (when in the Greek text, Jesus said at least in one part, he was "a" son of "God" ... not "the"). They created a religion where "becoming like" Jesus was inaccessible. In fact, in centuries to come, many mystic Christian who experienced 'Oneness with Reality' (Cosmic Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, "One with the Father" - Father being a biased patriarchal term holding the place of what we might now call 'the fundamental ground of all' ... 'that from which all manifestations are parts of' ... although some would argue that this 'fundamental ground is seperate from us and the Universe, it still wouldn't be as biased as being a "human male parent in the sky" ;-) ) was seen as a heratic and burnt at the stake for saying such blasphemies.


In my opinion, some texts within the banned "Gospel of Thomas" (many Christians will say these are rightfully banned and written later ... but research shows they were very likely early texts and I feel the Roman Catholic Church banned them because they didn't fit their agenda) point to a Jesus saying the so-called "Kingdom of Heaven" was a state of being ... a mental state like the Buddhists are concerned with. I don't feel it means a place.

-------
"22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom.""
--------

What's that mean? The babies are unpolluted by culture's biases and trainings. They are clear-minded unlike adults who have been altered by their society (and have tons of issues buzzing around in their minds - all caused by being attached to the temporary manifestations). I see that as a sign Jesus was talking more of a Buddhist/Toaist idea. The "Father's Kingdom" is not a place and is not ruled by a male sky god. Father is a patriacrhcl culturally biased word he used in the context of his society.

[I would add that the babies are still biased by human biology ... but within the human experience, babies are the closest to the "Kingdom of Heaven" or in Buddhist terms, the centre of the wheel. As we get older we are trained and get further out on the wheel to the rim. Then we are attached going around and around ... emotions swayed this way and that on the spinning wheel. If only we could see we are on the rim and see there is a centre of calm that does not move, then we could get to the centre and see the moving rim is clinging to temporary things while the centre is the 'Kingdom of the Father'. Notice how anaology works well in explaining things. There is no literal 'wheel' but the visualization helps explain. This is how I feel people should view Christian stories .... Garden of Eden should not be insisted upon as a literal historic event IMHO]


In Toaist text, it is stressed that that which cannot be named is given the word Tao but it is only a human label (all text labels are biasing ...so it must be stressed. Similarly to saying "God" should not be given a name because the very doing so, biases one to see the all-inclusive in limited terms)


----------

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

------


Personally, I don't think it's needed to claim oneself to "belong" to any religion or philosophy. You can root through the various debris of cultural history and dig up bits of wisdom.

I think of some religions and mythologies as like a garden. There are lots of rocks & weeds (ie , cultural baggage, racist & sexist rules, violent societal outdated punishments for infrinegments like Moses stoning the man on the Sabbath for picking up sticks) and even when you dig up the potatoes you want, you still have to wash off all the dirt of cultural baggage of religions' attempt at adjusting old texts to fit their agendas ;-)

(Remember that even the story of the great flood is seen in the Sumarian epic of Gilgamesh well before the Old Testament story .... to say you are going to fully cling to a particular religion's rules is to cause endless trouble justifying such details because a religion will say it's text is the word of "God", then how can it be related to some old dead religion that is seen as not the word. You can see a related evolution of religions blending together)

--------



I could see becoming a symbolic Christian (ie, to see it as symbolic) but not a literal one (in fact I thik people who cling to having to believe certain literal events occured spend more effort believing that than actually finding out the symbolic content). Humans are a relative manifestation of Reality. We see and have limited abilities and so Ultimate Reality ("God"?) is so far beyond our comprehension that the Old Testament idea of an angry Sky Father (Deus comes from Vedic Dyaus Pita for Sky Father...and also seen in the Greek's Zeus Pater and Ju+piter of the Romans) is so very limited in scope compared to the immensity of the Universe.


I wonder if the Buddha would say he was a Buddhist?

Would Jesus say he was a Christian?


Why are the labels needed? Would the Buddha want huge gold images and temples and would Jesus want gold and ceremony and dogma filled powerful churches?

----------
Just my ideas on the matter.

[uncia]

i live in a catholic area, are you taking the piss?:rolleyes:
I've only met English Catholics. I don't know about Irish ones. But I am talking about serious Catholics anyway - not nominal ones. In Ireland I guess everyone's a Catholic so its not saying much about your belief system, more about your infant baptismal rite.

[zetetic0void]

"I would love facts, but unfortunately science and religion don't mix."
-----------

Science seems to claim authority in explaining Reality. Personally I see it as a tool with a certain "resolution" (that resoution appears to be getting finer and finer... but we then see how much more detail there is to resolve so are we just having the distance to zero on a yard stick with each step? We still will never reach zero by doubling resolution of science's little boxes of resolution it divided Reality up into). It also contains within it base assumptions (the very basic assumptions are because at some level , science is from the point of view of a limited biological manifestation we label 'human').


I'm not saying science is "wrong" but it can explain 'things' to certain accuracy from certain points of view.
-------------

Lets look at the Sun. We all agree that the Sun is an object with an apparent certain diameter (even that is vage though and when you get down to it, the real definition of an object is arbitrary in the grey zone of the edges). Why do we describe it that way? Because our biology favours viewing reality that way.


If we were intelligent creatures on a planet where (for sake of argument) we never biologically developed eyes, our "Sun" would be described as a generally increased direction of warmth. As we rotate, we could measure the general direction of the most intense warmth in a certain direction but it would still be warm behind us. We would deduce that we were inside the "Sun" which had a region of greater intensity that revolved around our ground once a day.

So in this culture, their entire 'science' might have totally different base level assumptions.



I haven't seen science explain Reality any better than religion (both claiming they can explain Reality are off but in different directions. They both claim to be able to explain Reality using symbolic placeholders of words and numbers.... I have yet to see the explanation though). It can predict bits of Reality to varying degress of accuracy using interacting models of various compatability. Certain elements could be said to be more or less true in concept (eg... there is some aspect of Reality which has an effect we label 'gravity') but other things are somewhat approximations (even something predictable to 10000 decimal places is approximate. If the same science were used in the conditions of 1/1000000 second after the so-called "Big Bang" , the predictions might not have the mathematical precision to be useful at all.


Science and religion both have limits ... people who believe either can explain Reality are why the two don't mix ;-)


Just some ideas.

[hellosatellites]

Yes, you should become a catholic again. Good luck.

[darketernal]

I think you should follow your heart and do what you think is right, rather than allowing others to make your choices for you.

Now if you are asking me to chose for you, I would say absolutely do not join any religion. Religions and belief in god(s) are a scourge upon humanity, and have no place in a truely free world. The concept of worshiping a god is fundimentally negative and complete spiritual enslavement from my perspective.

[neworderhorizon]

cheers for all the replies.
But I have another question.
Can you believe in both Catholicism and David Icke?
I mean he talks about Jesus and the Bible, but he also says we were made by reptilian aliens.

[neworderhorizon]

I think you should follow your heart and do what you think is right, rather than allowing others to make your choices for you.

Now if you are asking me to chose for you, I would say absolutely do not join any religion. Religions and belief in god(s) are a scourge upon humanity, and have no place in a truely free world. The concept of worshiping a god is fundimentally negative and complete spiritual enslavement from my perspective.

very good point. but I also believe that the illuminati are satanic which kinda effects my decision.

[zero1]

No.

I was raised as a catholic but converted to buddhism and I am thinking of become catholic again.

I went through a similar transition. There is no going back to Catholicism really, it'd just be a regression.

[uncia]

cheers for all the replies.
But I have another question.
Can you believe in both Catholicism and David Icke?
I mean he talks about Jesus and the Bible, but he also says we were made by reptilian aliens.
As I see it, being a Catholic is not about believing in "Catholicism" or even believing in the Pope. There are as many shades of opinion within Catholicism as outside of it. There are complete hypocrites, free masons, and semi-satanists, but there are also goldly people who discard the dross and stick with the biblical essentials. As a Protestant I see Catholic traditions being akin to oral traditions of the Pharisees - deeply in error and lacking in biblical justification. However many Catholics discard them. I can't advocate Protestantism in general as the term has come to include many churches that are far worse than Catholic churches, the very dregs of religion itself. It is I think ultimately a question of who you chose to associate / socialize with; and I think associating with Catholics is more beneficial to one than not, espcially if you are unsure of your beliefs as you obviously are, and have been brought up in that tradition.

David Icke is more aligned to Christianity than he realizes, because in opposing the illuminati, he is opposing Satanism in all its forms, and one of those forms is buddhism, which is atheism, and an erroneous system commonly adapted by new agers to suit their pagan lifestyles. David Icke is clearly incorrect in referencing space aliens, for which no reliable evidence has ever been produced. However he is correct in exposing satanism, which is where every other religion but Christianity will lead you in the end.

[neworderhorizon]

As I see it, being a Catholic is not about believing in "Catholicism" or even believing in the Pope. There are as many shades of opinion within Catholicism as outside of it. There are complete hypocrites, free masons, and semi-satanists, but there are also goldly people who discard the dross and stick with the biblical essentials. As a Protestant I see Catholic traditions being akin to oral traditions of the Pharisees - deeply in error and lacking in biblical justification. However many Catholics discard them. I can't advocate Protestantism in general as the term has come to include many churches that are far worse than Catholic churches, the very dregs of religion itself. It is I think ultimately a question of who you chose to associate / socialize with; and I think associating with Catholics is more beneficial to one than not, espcially if you are unsure of your beliefs as you obviously are, and have been brought up in that tradition.

David Icke is more aligned to Christianity than he realizes, because in opposing the illuminati, he is opposing Satanism in all its forms, and one of those forms is buddhism, which is atheism, and an erroneous system commonly adapted by new agers to suit their pagan lifestyles. David Icke is clearly incorrect in referencing space aliens, for which no reliable evidence has ever been produced. However he is correct in exposing satanism, which is where every other religion but Christianity will lead you in the end.

Thanks for the reply.
The main problem I have is that its all just what people say. Theres no real evidence, just interpretations of history. David looks at a ancient image of a man up a tree and sees aliens in a ufo and Christians see God in heaven.
Its also down to if the Bible is true, which I know its has been heavily edited, so...
Also the main reason I stuck with Catholicism was fear and that seems to still be a factor in returning.
Its all rather confusing :D.

[miracles]

You dont have to join an organisation to read the bible and find the way the truth and the life. :)

[cafetimes1991]

I go to a local Protestant church here in Ireland for the sense of peace and love.
However, what I wonder about almost everyday is: "Were the Marian apparitions real?". I'm talking about Lourdes, Fatima etc. I mean, if they were they are certainly creating a sense of love (healings, goodwill etc)...

[manxboz]

Why don't you try prayer, then listen carefully for the answer to where you should go. The Lord will guide you by the Holy Ghost that i promise you, he answers all prayers.

[emerald]

U want an honest answer? NO. Dont go back to the illusion. But after all its who u de(i)cide...:D

[uncia]

Thanks for the reply.
The main problem I have is that its all just what people say. Theres no real evidence, just interpretations of history. David looks at a ancient image of a man up a tree and sees aliens in a ufo and Christians see God in heaven.

The apostles when they looked at Christ crucified all fell away and disbelieved, as Christ himself foretold:
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
They only believed again when they saw the risen Christ. This is the point that no atheist or sceptic can answer. It defies logic that those who have relapsed into a state of unbelief after seeing their lord crucified could invent a story about his resurrection.


Its also down to if the Bible is true, which I know its has been heavily edited, so...

Most of the prophets and the New Testament have come down to us unedited.


Also the main reason I stuck with Catholicism was fear and that seems to still be a factor in returning.
Its all rather confusing :D.
Fear of offending God is natural. The bible condemns those who have no fear of God as fools.

[darketernal]

very good point. but I also believe that the illuminati are satanic which kinda effects my decision.

They are as Christian as they are Satanic. They are both and neither in the traditional sense. You don't understand the Illuminati at all if you think they are about Satanism vs. Christianity. The two religions are two sides of the same coin... a coin which they own. Both religions are their creation and property. Anyone who follows either is their rightful property as well.

[infin8_possibility]

Yes, you should become a catholic again. Good luck.

Thats a joke right? :confused:

[uncia]

They are as Christian as they are Satanic. They are both and neither in the traditional sense. You don't understand the Illuminati at all if you think they are about Satanism vs. Christianity. The two religions are two sides of the same coin... a coin which they own. Both religions are their creation and property. Anyone who follows either is their rightful property as well.
Dualism was always regarded as a heresy in Christianity. Mani was a proto-dualist. Christianity owns the legitimacy of no other religion which seeks to differentiate itself.

[hellosatellites]

Thats a joke right? :confused:


No. it's not a joke. It's intuitive support for the part of the OP that is wondering if there may be some insight for him/her that can best be revealed through contact with catholicism. Who knows? Sometimes we just need to check out certain situations to confirm whether there is still something of value there or if we are really 'done' with it and ready to move on to more approriate learning situations.

It's just support for the personal path. Not an official endorsement of catholicism ;) if that was what surprised you, infin8? I'm not catholic :p

[phildee3]

Should I become a Catholic again?



I think you should first ask yourself if you recognise the validity and efficaciousness of the sacraments when administered, in particular, by a priest who is ordained within the apostolic succession.

If the answer is yes, then you are already a Catholic.
The question then is:
should you become a practicing Catholic again?

If you feel it would help you develop spritually, then yes.

(If the answer is no, then absolutely not!)

[uncia]

I think you should first ask yourself if you recognise the validity and efficaciousness of the sacraments when administered, in particular, by a priest who is ordained within the apostolic succession.

If the answer is yes, then you are already a Catholic.

I thought it was a matter of baptismal rite & not your personal views (at least from their point of view). Also need to distinguish Roman Catholic from Catholic. I am guilty of that too. I think all true Christians are Catholics, but not necessarily Roman Catholics.

[phildee3]

I thought it was a matter of baptismal rite & not your personal views (at least from their point of view).



Who are "they"?
I think there are bigots in every sect who think that baptism is an initiation of membership into their particular sect!
I don't know of any sect that holds that as a fundamental tenet of their own faith. Do you?

[uncia]

Who are "they"?
I think there are bigots in every sect who think that baptism is an initiation of membership into their particular sect!
I don't know of any sect that holds that as a fundamental tenet of their own faith. Do you?
The Roman Catholicism certainly does. It holds that it is the one true church, and it equates its own baptism as the only valid baptism and baptism by heretics (such as myself) as ineffectual. See Council of Trent


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm)

Baptism is the essential legal rite whereby a person becomes a member of the Roman Catholic church. If you are not baptized you cannot receive any other sacrement, but if you are baptized they will never let you go (they need your money) unless you do something really bad like usurp the Pope. However I am not sure that infant baptism is scriptural, as there is no cognition involved. Closely associated with infant baptism is the superstitious nonsense that an unbaptized baby has no place in God's kingdom. Yet the thief on the cross did, and he was not baptized.

[dedicate]

phildee... The Mormons do,-- if I understand your question. Once you are Baptised in the Mormon church, you have been initiated into their sect. You are a Mormon.

I think the same is true for Roman Catholics.

I maybe wrong, though. And I may misunderstand your question.

[phildee3]

phildee... The Mormons do,-- if I understand your question. Once you are Baptised in the Mormon church, you have been initiated into their sect. You are a Mormon.

I think the same is true for Roman Catholics.

I maybe wrong, though. And I may misunderstand your question.



I think you do understand my question.
It doesn't surprise me about Mormons!
I've been Catholic (independent) since 1983, and studied alot, but I've never seen anything official that states that this is true for RC.s -
and I would be very surprised to see it.

[neworderhorizon]

Hello again.
Thank you all very much. I have decided to join the dark side :D and go back to Catholicism.
Here is an interesting video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNykJk6v_oQ
Its not why I converted back, just found it interesting.
Thank you all!
Bye.

[uncia]

I've never seen anything official that states that this is true for RC.s -
and I would be very surprised to see it.
Try digesting the whole of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

[delamo1999]

They are as Christian as they are Satanic. They are both and neither in the traditional sense. You don't understand the Illuminati at all if you think they are about Satanism vs. Christianity. The two religions are two sides of the same coin... a coin which they own. Both religions are their creation and property. Anyone who follows either is their rightful property as well.


Well said Darketernal. I myself rejected catholism as a young child even though I did not understand why. The only reason why I continued to practice is because my parents literally had to drag me to church each Sunday. Now as an adult and having done my own research, I am not going to rejoin an organization that has a hidden covert agenda.

[uncia]

Well said Darketernal. I myself rejected catholism as a young child even though I did not understand why. The only reason why I continued to practice is because my parents literally had to drag me to church each Sunday. Now as an adult and having done my own research, I am not going to rejoin an organization that has a hidden covert agenda.
You think the illuminatii don't have a hidden agenda?

[remium]

You think the illuminatii don't have a hidden agenda?

omg ( <<< pretty ironic lol) .... Did you read any part of this thread, IMO and the opinion of many, many others....organized religion of any persuasion, good or bad, is all a form of control set in motion by the illuminati for the masses. It is all the same agenda, hidden in many guises!!!

[phildee3]

Try digesting the whole of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm



Why don't you quote the relevent section?

[delamo1999]

You think the illuminatii don't have a hidden agenda?


Oh the illuminati have an agenda all right and they have done a real good job at fooling us all. However slowly the truth is leaking out.

:D

[armoured_amazon]

Thanks for the advice, but I have bounced around allot of religions and I don't know if I have been brain washed.
I would love facts, but unfortunately science and religion don't mix.

Perhaps you could follow the path of Jesus without leaning toward a man-made sect? This is something I am figuring out myself atm.

[phildee3]

Perhaps you could follow the path of Jesus without leaning toward a man-made sect?



Catholicism is "the path of Jesus."

Roman Catholicism is a sect.

[dedicate]

you're probably right, phildee. I may have just assumed from what I know of R.C. and Momonism -- not a lot, that when you are Baptised this makes you a member. Come to think of it, that doesn't make sense.

[miracles]

They are as Christian as they are Satanic. They are both and neither in the traditional sense. You don't understand the Illuminati at all if you think they are about Satanism vs. Christianity. The two religions are two sides of the same coin... a coin which they own. Both religions are their creation and property. Anyone who follows either is their rightful property as well.

What's the solution then DE? Im intersted to hear your point of view. If you have laid it out on other threads, I will be happy to read your take on things.

You do realise the bible has been proven to have been written by a supernatural force don't you? Yes that's irrefuteably proven. Which means whilst human beings where used to pen it, the words where supernaturally supplied. The illuminati have nothing to do with the writing of the bible, only the plagurizing of it. You cant explain that one away unless you want to suggest that the supernatural force was satan or an alien.

[remium]

You do realise the bible has been proven to have been written by a supernatural force don't you? Yes that's irrefuteably proven.

Well go on then ... prove it!!!

[miracles]

Well go on then ... prove it!!!

Ivan Panin's work in discovering the numeric patterns of sevens and nines in the original greek language. He spent 40 years restoring the New testament bible to it's original format first delivered by God through the original scribes.

Again, this evidence is irrefuteable, the scoundrels on the web trying to debunk it don't even come close.

Not that anyone with their spiritual eyes open already can't see the truth in it with out that discovery mind. I mean to say, Revelations, written over 2000years ago is practially being fulfilled before our very eyes.

Jesus is the way the truth and the life bro. Get saved. Read the Gopsel of John first.

God Bless you :)

[uncia]

Oh the illuminati have an agenda all right and they have done a real good job at fooling us all. However slowly the truth is leaking out.

:D
If you do not become a Christian, you will always be an Illuminati pawn.

[phildee3]

you're probably right, phildee. I may have just assumed from what I know of R.C. and Momonism -- not a lot, that when you are Baptised this makes you a member. Come to think of it, that doesn't make sense.



What does make sense, though, is to see it as membership in the one, universal (catholic with a small 'c'), undivided church.

However, one's membership (baptism) is not complete until confirmation, which involves a conscious, reponsible commitment.
Until then, baptism, lacking the consent of the initiate, can only reserve the candidate for membership proper.

[eternal_spirit]

1) Why do kids get confirmed in the Catholic Church at such a young age?

Tradition. Not so long ago, sexual maturity was equated with adulthood (still is in many parts of the world). The Roman Catholic Confirmation is undeniably similar in intent to the Jewish Bar/Bat Mitzvah. 150 years ago in many places around the world (including much of the U.S.), 13 *was* adulthood.

Maybe someday they'll change it to coincide with legal adulthood - but I wouldn't hold my breath.


2) Why can't confirmation happen when a person is at LEAST 16, and preferably 18, when they are older and more mature, and able to fully understand their decision?

It can - of course. There is no official Roman Catholic doctrine designating a particular age. Adults are confirmed all of the time.

I *do* think that some at age 13 are already devoted to their faith (whatever that faith might be). 13 is certainly not too early for everyone - but it probably *is* too early for the average Westerner.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090425172210AAbXJkA

[indigo28]

I think you are free to believe what you want to believe. Only you know what belief system is right for you. If it makes you happy being a catholic then by all means. If not, then I would keep searching. Listen to your heart. When your in a place that you feel like "home" and it makes you happy being there and you like the people there, then you've found the right place.

[neworderhorizon]

hello again.
Well I tried it out, it didn't feel right. too many inconsistencies. I think I'll just stick with Ickeism for now :D.
Still abit curious about the whole anti-christ thing, and I appreciate the help from "darketernal", but I don't fully understand what you mean. If they created the religions, then why are they so into Satan and Anti-Christ?
Also, whats up with the hooded robe in your pic? :D

[lhaull]

Come on folks FFS...

We get an idea about something and think, Hey wouldn't it be nice to reform all my thought processes to coincide with this idea or this doctrine?

For what?

Like its going to make you turn into something you're not already or reveal hidden truths?

The same consciousness is flowing through you regardless if your using the language of maths or art or some wierd God fearing religion to explain that you have consciousness flowing through you.

This is so dumb.

And to all those who bleat on like...

'Oh my understanding of my indoctrinated mental thought process is the only right and true porcess of uinderstanding, all other processes are incorrect and you will burn in hellfire for all eternity blah blah fucking blah because you dont use the same process of labelling consciousness as I do and there is only one true God because Blah Blah fucking Blah.'

STFU, we know already you attend spiritual kindergarden, please try to remember there are others out here attending spiritual university.

[manxboz]

phildee... The Mormons do,-- if I understand your question. Once you are Baptised in the Mormon church, you have been initiated into their sect. You are a Mormon.

I think the same is true for Roman Catholics.

I maybe wrong, though. And I may misunderstand your question.

No there are many other tasks to do become you become a full Mormon, Baptism is just one of the many things one the path to full mormonism.

[darketernal]

hello again.
Well I tried it out, it didn't feel right. too many inconsistencies. I think I'll just stick with Ickeism for now :D.
Still abit curious about the whole anti-christ thing, and I appreciate the help from "darketernal", but I don't fully understand what you mean. If they created the religions, then why are they so into Satan and Anti-Christ?
Also, whats up with the hooded robe in your pic? :D

Honestly I think David uses the term Satanism when discussing the brotherhood, as a negative catchall, and has illuded to this in a couple of his presentations I've seen, rather than them being Satanist in the way most think of Satanism.

I've never seen any indication that those of any station within the "Illuminati" were into Satan, and the anti-Christ is only a term I have heard uttered by Christians. A lot of the lower-ranking Illuminists consider themselves Christians (or Muslim, or Jewish), at least in their conscious mind (front alter).

The picture in my avatar is a picture of me 6 years ago. I use it (and my name) as a subliminal to reinforce an idea for psychics, or psyops, who might read the site and seek to interact with me energetically.

[darketernal]

If you do not become a Christian, you will always be an Illuminati pawn.

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.

[miracles]

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.

Save us Dark Eternal, please save us from our ignorance.

Are you aware that you come accross as extremly anti Christian more so than anyone else on this site. Why might that be? I wont go into the type of energy you give off at this point, but I can feel it.

You also make out that you are very knowledgeable about the elite and the powers that be, and when asked how you know this you dont answer, and when asked about what you belive you dont answer that either. You just seem to take some pleasure in mocking people of faith. I find it quite distasteful.

[miracles]

Come on folks FFS...

We get an idea about something and think, Hey wouldn't it be nice to reform all my thought processes to coincide with this idea or this doctrine?

For what?

Like its going to make you turn into something you're not already or reveal hidden truths?

The same consciousness is flowing through you regardless if your using the language of maths or art or some wierd God fearing religion to explain that you have consciousness flowing through you.

This is so dumb.

And to all those who bleat on like...

'Oh my understanding of my indoctrinated mental thought process is the only right and true porcess of uinderstanding, all other processes are incorrect and you will burn in hellfire for all eternity blah blah fucking blah because you dont use the same process of labelling consciousness as I do and there is only one true God because Blah Blah fucking Blah.'

STFU, we know already you attend spiritual kindergarden, please try to remember there are others out here attending spiritual university.

What mystery School do you attend and what do you belive, so then we can mock that? Very spritiual, you must be in the junior class. Blah fucking blah. I suggest you start practising what you preach. That's lesson one.

[uncia]

War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.
Knowledge is delusion.
1Cr 8:2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

[darketernal]

Save us Dark Eternal, please save us from our ignorance.

Are you aware that you come accross as extremly anti Christian more so than anyone else on this site. Why might that be? I wont go into the type of energy you give off at this point, but I can feel it.

You also make out that you are very knowledgeable about the elite and the powers that be, and when asked how you know this you dont answer, and when asked about what you belive you dont answer that either. You just seem to take some pleasure in mocking people of faith. I find it quite distasteful.


Miracles my background has not been kept a secret from the forum. I come from an "elite" or "Illuminati" line as you might term it. I left the brotherhood 12 years ago.

[miracles]

Miracles my background has not been kept a secret from the forum. I come from an "elite" or "Illuminati" line as you might term it. I left the brotherhood 12 years ago.

Oh my appologies DE, sorry I didn't realise that. Please forgive me. Good on you for getting out of it, that would not have been easy for you. Was it Masonic or something like that? If it was, then it's quite well known that the junior or lower members dont really know what's going on at the top, isn't that right? They are gnerally quite well meaning people who think they are serving their communities, my father was a very low 3rd degree mason. He would never renounce it in a million years. He even encouraged me to join (recently). He is not an evil man, he is a better man than me in my opinion. He isnt a raving bibe basher like me either.

[lhaull]

What mystery School do you attend and what do you belive, so then we can mock that? Very spritiual, you must be in the junior class. Blah fucking blah. I suggest you start practising what you preach. That's lesson one.

*Grin
You think I was mocking you personally?
So you identify yourself as the hypothetical voice I scripted below?

'Oh my understanding of my indoctrinated mental thought process is the only right and true process of understanding, all other processes are incorrect and you will burn in hellfire for all eternity blah blah fucking blah because you dont use the same process of labelling consciousness as I do and there is only one true God because Blah Blah fucking Blah.'

Whow, I am amazed you can see yourself reflected in such an exagerated characature but ok I can work from that point if it suits the need.

What do I believe, I believe that practising what you preach is only lesson one for those who have yet to understand that it is the quality and nature of what one preaches and that which one practices which is important, over the act of merely preaching and practicing itself.
For if one was practicing and preaching cruelty, hatred and racism, which there are those who do and have done, by your own words they must be fullfilling what you deem as the first and therefor I imagine a greatly important spiritual lesson.
Which I must take issue with, for I see nothing Spiritual in said practices myself.

As for which Mystery School do I attend, thats easy.
Its called Me.

Please feel free to mock all you will, nothing I hold as valuable is ever in danger from external sources.

Here I'll start the ball rolling for you...
I am going to burn in hell, I am a blasphemer, the only salvation is through the one true religion, I am deluded, I am a sinner, I am bald.

Actually the last bit about being bald was a lie.

I am a liar.


Carry on from there Miricles, enjoy. *Smile.

[uncia]

I am a liar.
Oh dear.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[lhaull]

Yip, apparently only good Christian folks have the magic get out of hell card.

Imagine the odds, the whole universe, the multiverse even and only those on a small blue green planet in the arse end of thier universe, in infinite space which is chock full of other universes, and only then those who believe a certain thing in a certain way are the special chosen ones, seems like a bit of a limited thing for an Unlimited God to create no?

Still, not to worry.
Perhaps one day someone wil show me the error of my ways and I will be suddenly saved and be welcomed into the Christian Hereafter.

*Cough.

Ok ... there's no chance of that.
Actually can you imagine if the hell card wasn't there to be played?
I wonder how many people would follow a doctrine if there was salvation for all regardless if they followed a certain religion or not.

Oh but again, that can't happen because apparently there is only one true way to know and interact with God.
Silly me for knowing otherwise.

[miracles]

Yip, apparently only good Christian folks have the magic get out of hell card.

Imagine the odds, the whole universe, the multiverse even and only those on a small blue green planet in the arse end of thier universe, in infinite space which is chock full of other universes, and only then those who believe a certain thing in a certain way are the special chosen ones, seems like a bit of a limited thing for an Unlimited God to create no?

Still, not to worry.

Right! No!

[miracles]

*Grin
You think I was mocking you personally?
So you identify yourself as the hypothetical voice I scripted below?

'Oh my understanding of my indoctrinated mental thought process is the only right and true process of understanding, all other processes are incorrect and you will burn in hellfire for all eternity blah blah fucking blah because you dont use the same process of labelling consciousness as I do and there is only one true God because Blah Blah fucking Blah.'

Whow, I am amazed you can see yourself reflected in such an exagerated characature but ok I can work from that point if it suits the need.

What do I believe, I believe that practising what you preach is only lesson one for those who have yet to understand that it is the quality and nature of what one preaches and that which one practices which is important, over the act of merely preaching and practicing itself.
For if one was practicing and preaching cruelty, hatred and racism, which there are those who do and have done, by your own words they must be fullfilling what you deem as the first and therefor I imagine a greatly important spiritual lesson.
Which I must take issue with, for I see nothing Spiritual in said practices myself.

As for which Mystery School do I attend, thats easy.
Its called Me.

Please feel free to mock all you will, nothing I hold as valuable is ever in danger from external sources.

Here I'll start the ball rolling for you...
I am going to burn in hell, I am a blasphemer, the only salvation is through the one true religion, I am deluded, I am a sinner, I am bald.

Actually the last bit about being bald was a lie.

I am a liar.


Carry on from there Miricles, enjoy. *Smile.

Not at all, I just responded to you personally. Is that a problem?:)

'Oh my understanding of my indoctrinated mental thought process is the only right and true porcess of uinderstanding, all other processes are incorrect

Your understanding is your understanding. If you practised what you preached, you wouldnt even have written this!

[jojo]

Yip, apparently only good Christian folks have the magic get out of hell card.

Imagine the odds, the whole universe, the multiverse even and only those on a small blue green planet in the arse end of thier universe, in infinite space which is chock full of other universes, and only then those who believe a certain thing in a certain way are the special chosen ones, seems like a bit of a limited thing for an Unlimited God to create no?

Still, not to worry.


this is how i see it too. orgonised religion is a controling farse. it really makes me laugh when im told i will burn in ever lasting hell because i do not believe in the biblical god and jesus combo.

come on, we live in a back water of the milkyway... one of billions of galaxy's within this universe. as if an all knowing all loving god would suggest such a thing... lol.... and if it does, i want nothing to do with it.

[lhaull]

Well Im actually off to a Christian BBQ.
No Lies, I'v been invited and I am going right this second.
I have a church next door to my business.
They like to chat with me about God, even though I'm apparently damned to hell,
May as well get some hot sauce to go with it huh.


Be back once I have eaten.

Oh Hi Jo.
*Grin
Nice to see you.

[jojo]

Oh Hi Jo.
*Grin
Nice to see you.
:);)

[miracles]

Well Im actually off to a Christian BBQ.
No Lies, I'v been invited and I am going right this second.
I have a church next door to my business.
They like to chat with me about God, even though I'm apparently damned to hell,
May as well get some hot sauce to go with it huh.


Be back once I have eaten.

Oh Hi Jo.
*Grin
Nice to see you.

It would appear that God doesnt want you to be damned to hell then wouldnt it. :)

[manxboz]

Well Im actually off to a Christian BBQ.
No Lies, I'v been invited and I am going right this second.
I have a church next door to my business.
They like to chat with me about God, even though I'm apparently damned to hell,
May as well get some hot sauce to go with it huh.


Be back once I have eaten.

Oh Hi Jo.
*Grin
Nice to see you.

The Lord helps by sending messengers, your not dammed to hell. The Lord and the Holy Ghost can come into your life and redeem you. Hope it went well and you enjoyed it.

[lhaull]

The potato salad was heavenly.

[eternal_spirit]

Well Im actually off to a Christian BBQ.
No Lies, I'v been invited and I am going right this second.
I have a church next door to my business.
They like to chat with me about God, even though I'm apparently damned to hell,
May as well get some hot sauce to
Hope it's not the Jesus Army? They tried to convert me, I was also asked to a BQ, never went (but I was really skint 100's of miles from my home village and busking at the time (that's a street musician to you Americans) so guess they where doing me a good deed)

I jammed guitars with one of them, in the middle of Town, and this girl said I needed to let Jesus into my heart and started doing some kind of healing like Reiki on me, I got nervous and said No I don't need Jesus blah blah, plus my girl was at home and wouldn't have been to happy if I'd have gone to this BQ with the Jesus army.

(the girl who done the healing was really beautiful looking and I was falling for her and that would have been the reason for me to go to a BQ)

I seen a programme on TV years later about the "Jesus Army" and it described Christian Evangelists doing something known as "flirty fishing" which is sending good looking people out to convert.

Someone I knew a neighbour in a block of bedsits/flats) went to live with them, they had a huge house and lived like a commune.

He took me for a pint down the pub and started speaking in tongues and adding bible quotes. I told him to leave them, but he said he was happy. I left that Town many years ago, so have no idea what happened to him etc. I didn't know him long or well.

I'm in two minds about this, because they do help people out who are hungry, homeless etc. But you know, the word "cult" and "brainwashing" comes to mind.
Also there are alot of Occult groups some who follow Crowley's teachings set up by Alex Sanders round that region. (which there's evidence to suggest they are psyops set up by intelligence agencies, Masons, culture creators) Crowley = MI6 a Rothschild agent.

There's a guy on the forum who is either in the Jesus Army or hangs out with them and has only good thing to say.

I know its a bit off topic but you mentioned BQ and Christians reminded me of my past.

[lhaull]

They are missionaries, here in Thailand to dig wells and stuff for the hill tribes.
Nice folks, Kids mostly.
Some are a bit...whats the word.....Stiff.
Others like the guy I was talking with tonight, allowed me to ask him 'if he was to remove his mental understanding of Christianity, would he still have a connection to GOD.' He smiled and told me he would.
I oppted out of the singing and dancing, prefering to talk to this guy about conscioussness and energy and how mental understanding is merely one level of understanding which while we are only based in that level, seems to be all there is. But once we begin to know and experience through other levels, the notions which we held fast to in the mental realm, no longer seem to be as important or completely unalterably correct as they once were, as now we have a greater (bigger) source to draw from.

He seems and I feel is a good egg.

I enjoyed it.
Some really hot women there to. Which was nice as my wife stayed home.

*Chuckle

[manxboz]

Glad you enjoyed it, see us Christians aren't all bad people :p

[eternal_spirit]

Okay Ihaull good to know you know where you stand and can talk about beliefs etc, and that you had a nice time at the BQ :)

I was born Catholic but don't do bible, church or worship Christ etc or practice the faith.
If I look back thought my life them guess I'd be labeled more of a Pagan or Occultist or something along those lines. But my true religon would be a musician sounds like Magician lol.

[eternal_spirit]

I also went to a Catholic school.

I eventually got expelled myself. One reason was for drinking the communion wine and playing frizbee with the the communion hosts, throwing them at each other and trying to catch them in our mouths in the RE room.

The headmaster walked in lol. He was very old school and used to wear a black cape his nick name was bat man, if we where up to know good the code word was someone would hum the batman theme tune du du du du du du du du etc...

Problem was he used to wear co doroy slippers and sneak up on us. Although some say he floated with his cape :D

The irony Poor guy died from alcoholism years later, maybe that's why he was annoyed because he wanted the communion wine for himself. Of course that was for the teachers not the pupils.

[uncia]

But you know, the word "cult" and "brainwashing" comes to mind.
Is not that ultimately true of anything, including masons, occultists, even Icke'ites and their reptilian nonsense? Its best to join the "cult" that gives you most truth.

I never come across the Jesus Army where I live but I guess its OK for young people. If you live in Ireland, and you don't like Catholics, you could always go the Free Presbyterian church.

[eternal_spirit]

Is not that ultimately true of anything, including masons, occultists, even Icke'ites and their reptilian nonsense? Its best to join the "cult" that gives you most truth

True. But I'm a one man band and not part of anything and don't want to be.

I never come across the Jesus Army where I live but I guess its OK for young people. If you live in Ireland, and you don't like Catholics, you could always go the Free Presbyterian church.

I got both Catholic/Protestant Irish ancestry, but I doubt they would have got married in Ireland at the time, it was either frowned up on or damn risky to one's well being, but they did marry in England.

No conversion for me thanks :D

[lhaull]

Glad you enjoyed it, see us Christians aren't all bad people :p

Oh Manxboz, my friend, I agree.
I have met some lovely people who use Christianity as a vehicle to know God and they are kind, giving, caring folks with good hearts, eager to share laugh and learn. I have met people who use Christianity for other reasons to. The understanding and application is as different and varied as those who embrace it as a common identification.

The doctrine itself to me has flaws, the biggest as I have earlier written being Hell for those who do not submit to the religion.

I have some old shoes which I love.
I wear them when I walk in the country, they are well worn and comfortable and I feel better when I have them on.
When I was a worker in the UK I was asked not to wear them to work as they were not in keeping with the company dress code. They were shabby apparently.
I kept wearing them. I no longer have that job.

I still have the shoes.

[lhaull]

Okay Ihaull good to know you know where you stand and can talk about beliefs etc, and that you had a nice time at the BQ :)

I was born Catholic but don't do bible, church or worship Christ etc or practice the faith.
If I look back thought my life them guess I'd be labeled more of a Pagan or Occultist or something along those lines. But my true religon would be a musician sounds like Magician lol.

If music be the food of love...
I am in awe of those who create music and art.
Pure brilliance.

[uncia]

I got both Catholic/Protestant Irish ancestry, but I doubt they would have got married in Ireland at the time, it was either frowned up on or damn risky to one's well being, but they did marry in England.

No conversion for me thanks :D
What are you doing on this sub- forum then?

[eternal_spirit]

What are you doing on this sub- forum then?
Thats a question many religious people have asked. A none religious person is as entitled to a POV too. I'm not asking anyone to give up their faith. Religion is a fascinating topic.

[eternal_spirit]

If music be the food of love...
I am in awe of those who create music and art.
Pure brilliance.
http://www.myspace.com/futureguitar
:)
Played and recorded at home on limited equipment.

[danceswithbunnies]

Then again, maybe the Bible is actually inspired by Satan.

What better way to fool all of mankind than to destroy the knowledge of any real creator or spirit through worshiping some lying vengeful deity who insists on ignorance and the slaughter of the innocent to propitiate its bloodlust...

Interestingly as a sidenote, the idea of satisfaction theory (anselem 1100 CE) led to the later idea of Vicarious Atonement which now seems to dominate the fundamentalist landscape.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone10.htm

[realy]

just join the hopi cause!

[uncia]

Then again, maybe the Bible is actually inspired by Satan.

What better way to fool all of mankind than to destroy the knowledge of any real creator or spirit through worshiping some lying vengeful deity who insists on ignorance and the slaughter of the innocent to propitiate its bloodlust...

Interestingly as a sidenote, the idea of satisfaction theory (anselem 1100 CE) led to the later idea of Vicarious Atonement which now seems to dominate the fundamentalist landscape.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone10.htm
It is true to say that he was cursed vicariously, but his blood was not shed vicariously, but only by way of satisfaction for our sins. That is to say, even if our own blood had been shed and we had suffered as he had, it would not have procured our remission:

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

[miracles]

just join the hopi cause!

In their spiritual life, the Hopi Indian tribe recognizes a force they call "the Gambler" as a pernicious spirit. Arizona Public Radio's Daniel Kraker reports the Hopi may be trying to harness that spirit -- a depressed local economy is leading the Hopi to consider opening a new casino.

[eternal_spirit]

Thought they believed in some snake God/creator thing that lived under ground and they are to scared to even mention it by name. Or maybe that's from the past their anscetors/mytholgy.

[danceswithbunnies]

It is true to say that he was cursed vicariously, but his blood was not shed vicariously, but only by way of satisfaction for our sins. That is to say, even if our own blood had been shed and we had suffered as he had, it would not have procured our remission:

Again that is interpretation...

[lhaull]

http://www.myspace.com/futureguitar
:)
Played and recorded at home on limited equipment.

Oh I love it.
Its fab!

You know a friend of mine once put a slice of half eaten pizza in the hand bag of Robert Fripps wife, Toyah Willcox.
He was very drunk apparently, and I believe showed amazing clarity of judgement to manage such a feat.

Don't know why that is relivent, maybe I was thinking of Fripp while listening to your guitar.

I prefer your playing to his.

[uncia]

Again that is interpretation...
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
.
.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

[phildee3]

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



Paul again! Preaching Yahwism to the Yahwists!

The evangelists, however, (who were apostles - authorised by Jesus) tell us of John's revolutionary Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

[uncia]

Paul again! Preaching Yahwism to the Yahwists!

The evangelists, however, (who were apostles - authorised by Jesus) tell us of John's revolutionary Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Repentance involves the appropriation of God's gift, not the reason for it.

[phildee3]

Repentance involves the appropriation of God's gift, not the reason for it.



Quite so.
The omnipresent all-that-is does not reason, it simply is - pure Love.
By repentance, we remove the wall between us and it.

[danceswithbunnies]

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
.
.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:


I can cherry pick the bible too to support whatever view i want, just like the christians do...

So you whip out a verse that has to do with anyone hanging on a tree being cursed...where in the Old Testament does it say that people hanging on trees are cursed?

Of course most of the "bible prophecies" were written AFTER the fact (or interpolated as most jewish people will point out) like most of the "predictions" in the new testament about the fall of jerusalem.

By most christian standard of proof, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn are prophets of God, look at how accurately they predicted history....
(of course the wrote about the history AFTER it happened, but that shouldn't matter to the die hard believer who will insist they wrote it before.)

[roscoe91]

Infallible Constitution of Catholic Church(1870)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM#4 and #6

This is not an endorsement of EWTN

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Anyone contemplating Catholicism without realising that Cardinl Siri was actually elected true Pope in 1958 will be sucked into the v2, anti-christ, judeo-masonic anti-church filled with anti-popes-- beware.

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com

http://www.cathinfo.com

[roscoe91]

Also

http://www.thepopeinred.com

[uncia]

Infallible Constitution of Catholic Church(1870)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM#4 and #6

This is not an endorsement of EWTN

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Anyone contemplating Catholicism without realising that Cardinl Siri was actually elected true Pope in 1958 will be sucked into the v2, anti-christ, judeo-masonic anti-church filled with anti-popes-- beware.

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com

http://www.cathinfo.com
Problem for you guys is that the Pope by definition, is the bishop of Rome, so whoever holds Rome holds the papacy. It was by insisting on the primacy of the Roman bishop that the Pope lay claim to his pretensions.

Anyone who sets themselves up as Pope in the Vatican is the Pope, by definition. Although you might say he was incorrectly ordained, he is always able to assert, as with Paul the Apostle, that he required no lineage of ordainment to be Pope.

[phildee3]

Anyone contemplating Catholicism without realising that Cardinl Siri was actually elected true Pope in 1958 will be sucked into the v2, anti-christ, judeo-masonic anti-church filled with anti-popes-- beware.



This only applies to Roman Catholicism.
Nowhere does neworderhorizon state that s/he is specifically interested in that particular sect.
Even if one is, though, one might ignore all the politics and modern rules and regulations and just avail oneself of the sacraments and their associated graces.
Many RCs do just that, and their numbers are increasing rapidly.