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luciferhorus

15-05-2009, 02:18 AM

I'm posting this as a new thread in response to The Auschwitz 'Gas Chamber' Illusion thread, since it is quite comprehensive and I'd rather it didn't get lost in endless pages of rants. There are quite a number of Holocaust FAQ's on the Internet which respond to Holocaust Revisionism of the ilk of the nizkor.org response below.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/85/Conspiracy-film.jpg/200px-Conspiracy-film.jpg

The minutes of the 1942 Wannsee Conference (Wannsee Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) were made into the movie 'Conspiracy;' the official minutes should be read in conjuntion with Eichmann's testimony during his trial in Israel. Eichmann is often referred to as the 'Architect' of the Holocaust.

"There were, however, significant omissions in the minutes. These were not fully elucidated until the interrogation and trial of Eichmann in Israel in 1962. Eichmann told his questioners that towards the end of the meeting cognac was served, and that after that the conversation became less restrained.[32] "The gentlemen were standing together, or sitting together", he said, "and were discussing the subject quite bluntly, quite differently from the language which I had to use later in the record. During the conversation they minced no words about it at all...they spoke about methods of killing, about liquidation, about extermination".

...At the conclusion of the meeting Heydrich gave Eichmann firm instructions about what was to appear in the minutes. They were not to be verbatim: Eichmann would "clean them up" so that nothing too explicit appeared in them. He said at his trial: "How shall I put it—certain over-plain talk and jargon expressions had to be rendered into office language by me".

As a result, the last twenty minutes of the meeting, in which, as Eichmann recalled, words like "liquidation" and "extermination" were freely used, were summed up in one bland sentence: "In conclusion the different types of possible solutions were discussed". Thus the minutes must be read in conjunction with Eichmann's testimony to get as near as is possible to a full account of what took place.
Wannsee Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even in the official German transcript which was heavily censored, Reinhard Heydrich who was hosting the meeting made the ultimate fate intended for Jewish evacuees clear:

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes. The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as the seed of a new Jewish revival
Ibid.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2007/04/02/holocaust00.jpg

The evidence for the Holocaust can be summed up in the following way:

1: Written documents—hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.

2: Eyewitness testimony—accounts from survivors, Jewish Sonderkommandos (who were forced to help load bodies from the gas chambers into the crematoria in exchange for the promise of survival), SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even high-ranking Nazis who spoke openly about the mass murder of the Jews

3: Photographs—including official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, unofficial photographs taken by the German military.

4: The camps themselves—concentration camps, work camps, and extermination camps that still exist in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction

5: Inferential evidence—population demographics, reconstructed from the pre-World War II era; if six million Jews were not killed, what happened to them all?

Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41353000/jpg/_41353082_irving-ap203.jpg
Abive: David Irving

Even one of the most famous Holocaust Revisionists, the historican David Irving who was prosectuted in Austria for denying the holocaust has this to say:

After he was arrested, Irving claimed in his plea that he changed his opinions on the Holocaust, "I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."[

Holocaust revisionists often point to evidence which has been altered or manufactured and post-war testimonies which were extracted from Nazis under torture and which they later retracted, and in this respect it is indisputable that 'some' evidence was altered, manufactured or extracted by torture, but never the less, this does not constitute a case for the Holocaust not having occurred. It is simply not credible to disbelieve the testimonies of every survivor of the concentration camps and the numerous post-war testimonies of the Nazis themselves.

http://www.rlsmart.net/uploads/46/7202/rcast/holocaust_1.jpg

Hitler was quite clear about the matter anyway:

"Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe." January 30, 1939 speech to the Reichstag,

Holocaust Denialism II: Who financed the Nazis?

One of the great cover-ups which is often ignored is the fact that International Capital financed the Nazis; there was no economic miracle in Germany; it was paid for by American bankers whose institutions today still rule the world.

http://ecosyn.us/Bush-Hitler/Blogspot/industrialists/Wall_Street_And_The_Rise_of_Hitler.jpg

The entire text of Sutton's classic work can be read online

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

See also the German Marxist historian Lenni Brenner's Zionism in the Age of the Dictators: A Reappraisal (1983) on collaboration between the Nazis and the Zionists.

http://kildare.ie/kpsc/occupationinfo/images/main/sidelinks/books/zionismdictators.jpg

Full text of Zionism in the Age of the Dictators: A Reappraisal on:
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner

See also: George Bush:The Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, particularly chapter two which goes into the American Financing of the Nazis by the Harriman / Bush crime families.

http://www.tarpley.net/bcover05.gif

Full text on:

http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm

Lucifer
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
For Apocalyptic War and World Communist Revolution
No mercy on they who deserve none.
_________________

HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (Extract)

From: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/auschwitz/part01/

Gas Chambers

"There was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see,
they are bringing children now'. They opened the door, threw
the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry.
A member of the SS climbed on the roof. The people went on
crying for about ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the
doors. Everything was in disorder and contorted. Heat was
given off. the bodies were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to
a ditch. The next batch were already undressing in the huts.
After that I didn't look at my wife for four weeks." (From the
testimony of SS private Boeck (Langbein, quoted in Pressac, 181))

2.1 Krema I - The Experimental Gas Chamber

David Cole has produced a videotape which filmed the director of the
Auschwitz State Museum apparently admitting that the gas-chamber
known as "Krema I" was constructed after the war ended, on the direct
order of Stalin. In a letter to Nizkor's Ken McVay, Dr. Piper explicitly
denies making any such statement. Foner (Foner, Samuel P. "Major
Historical Fact Uncovered" SPOTLIGHT Vol. XIX, Number 2, January 11,
1993) tells us:

The videotape on which Piper makes his revelations was taken in
mid-1992 by a young Jewish investigator, David Cole. It has
just been released, on January 1, 1993, although Cole announced
his project at the 11th International Revisionist Conference at
Irvine, California last October.

The small gas chamber of Krema I was used for gassing for a short
time, and then converted into an air-raid shelter; after the war,
it was reconstructed to look as it did when it was used for
gassing, as Dr. Piper notes in his letter of response to the Cole
video. The text of Piper's letter is a bit stilted, as Polish is
his native language, but his intent, and the facts, are quite
clear:

Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
unknown fact the Nazis adapted the crematorium in question
in which the gas chamber were located for air-raid shelter,
the fact allegedly unknown even for Museum guides. It is
un truth. See enclosed copies of pages from the books
which constitute the fundamental reading for Auschwitz
guides. In book by T-an Sehn "Concentrat Camp
Ogwiqcim-Brzezinka (Auschwitz-Birkenau)Warsaw 1957, You may
read on the page 152-"In May 1944 the old Crematorium I in
the base camp was adapted for use as an air raid shelter.

The Fact is also confirmed in the book by Jean Claude
Pressac "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
chambers, published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New
York 1989(515 Madison Avenue. On the page 157 you may
read: "With part of the building converted to an air raid
shelter, this is the state in which the SS abandoned
Krematorium I in January 1945" Repeating what Pressac had
written I told what was the nature of the adaptation works
carried out by the Nazis and what one had to do to remove
those changes in order to regain the previous appearance.

They are all "Pipers revelations." In spite of the fact
that such secondary restoration works had to be done there
is an undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question
is housed in the same building which has been existed from
prewar times till now.

(get pub/people/p/piper.franciszec/press/daily.texan.1093
for the entire letter from Dr. Piper to the Daily Texan
regarding the Cole video; Dr. Piper was never the director
of the Auschwitz State Museum.)

Breitman offers the following as background information to the
development of Zyklon B as a killing device, and (more specifically)
to the early use to which Block 11 was put:

Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet commissars and
other POW's who were subject to liquidation. Hoess's men had
shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but on September 3
Hoess's enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmfuehrer Fritsch
thought of an expedient new method based on the camp's own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow to get rid of them. Two experts had fumigated
particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a
crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous when
exposed to the air. (Hoess, "Commandant of Auschwitz," 175.
Interrogation of Hoess, 14 May 1946, NA RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)

On September 3 Fritsch decided to experiment. First he crammed
five or six hundred Russians and another 250 sick prisoners from
the camp hospital into an underground detention cell. Then the
windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas masks
opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like blue
chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of poison
gas. After they left, the doors were sealed.(Hoess, Commandant
at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer, "Auschwitz," in
Jaeckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Hoess
wrote later that death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what
he was told. But he was not present to witness the event; he
was away on a business trip. Other sources indicate that even
the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had to
release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When Hoess returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful
experiment. On Eichmann's next visit to Auschwitz, Hoess told
him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to
Hoess, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant
farmstead for extermination.(Hoess, Commandant, 175. From the
History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)

SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad described a gassing in Krema I while
giving testimony (Museum, 176):

".... The `disinfectors' were at work. One of them was
SS-Unterscharfuehrer Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War
Merit. With a chisel and a hammer they opened a few
innocuously looking tins which bore the inscription `Cyclon, to
be used against vermin. Attention, poison! to be opened by
trained personnel only!'. The tins were filled to the brim
with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after opening
the tins, their contents were thrown into the holes which were
then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the
driver of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium.
The driver started the motor and its deafening noise was louder
than the death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being
gassed to death."

Mu"llers eyewitness account of gassings in Krema I, in April, 1942, is
recounted in Hilberg's "The Destruction of the European Jews,":

The Auschwitz procedure evolved in stages. In April 1942,
Slovak Jews were gassed in Crematorium I, apparently with their
clothes on. Later, deportees from nearby Sosnowiec were told
to undress in the yard. The victims, faced by the peremptory
order to remove their clothes, men in front of women and women
in front of men, became apprehensive. The SS men, shouting at
them, then drove the naked men, women and children into the gas
chamber.

In The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Jozef Buszko (Jagiellonian
University, Krakow) writes: "The first, relatively small gas chamber was
built in Auschwitz I. Here the experimental gassing using Zyklon B gas
first took place, on September 3, 1941. The victims were 600 Soviet
prisoners of war and 250 other prisoners. After that experiment, the
firm J. A. Topf and Sons received a contract to build much larger,
permanent gas chambers connected with very large crematoria in
Auschwitz-Birkenau, where the mass exterminations were mainly carried
out. Altogether four such installations -- II, III, IV, and V -- were
built in Birkenau." (Encyclopedia, Vol. I, 113)

2.2 Krema II, III, IV, and V - The Birkenau Gas Chambers

Foner continues: "What Piper said, in effect - and on camera - was that
the explosive Leuchter Report was correct: No homicidal gassings took
place in the buildings designated `homicidal gas chambers' at
Auschwitz."

(As to the "Leuchter report", we refer you to the Leuchter Report FAQ,
- http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/.

Foner omits mention of the larger gas chambers of Kremas II-V, in which
over a million people were murdered. Hilberg (Destruction) provides the
following:

At Birkenau, illusion was the rule. It was not always simple
or possible, inasmuch as at least some of the deportees had
observed the sign "Auschwitz" as the train passed through the
railway yards, (Wiesel, 36) or had seen flames belching from
the chimneys, or had smelled the strange, sickening odor of the
crematoria. (Lengyel, 22) Most of them, however, like a group
from Salonika, were funneled through the undressing rooms, were
told to hang their clothes on hooks and remember the number,
and promised food after the shower and work after the food.
The unsuspecting Greek Jews, clutching soap and towels, rushed
into the gas chambers. (Mu"ller, 80-81) Nothing was allowed to
disturb this precarious synchronization. When a Jewish inmate
revealed to newly arrived people what was in store for them, he
was cremated alive. (Mu"ller, 80) Only in the case of victims
who were brought in from nearby ghettos in upper Silesia
(Sosnowiec and Bedzin) and who had had intimations of Auschwitz
was speed alone essential. These people were told to undress
quickly in their "own best interest." (Mu"ller, 69-71)

And finally, consider these remarks, from the SS Doctor Kremer, made
during a hearing held on 18 July, 1947. (Klee, 258)

I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these
groups of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot
say how big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw
them sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they
were wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the
undressing hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded
from the behavior of these women that they had no doubt what
fate awaited them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to
spare them their lives. However, they were herded into the gas
chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I have seen a lot of
terrible things: I had had a lot of experience with dead bodies,
and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had ever seen
before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote on
my diary on 5 September 1942: "The most dreadful of horrors.
Hauptscharfuherer Thilo was right when he said to me today that
this is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world". I
used this image because I could not imagine anything more
disgusting and horrific.
2.3 Zyklon B

Two German firms, Tesch/Stabenow and Degesch, produced Cyclone
B gas after they acquired the patent from Farben. Tesch
supplied two tons a month, and Degesch three quarters of a ton.
The firms that produced the gas already had extensive experience
in fumigation. "In short, this industry used very powerful
gases to exterminate rodents and insects in enclosed spaces;
that it should now have become involved in an operation to kill
off Jews by the hundreds of thousands is not mere accident."
(Hilberg, Commandant, 567) A

After the war the directors of the
firms insisted that they had sold their products for fumigation
purposes and did not know they were being used on humans. But
the prosecutors found letters from Tesch not only offering to
supply the gas crystals but also advising how to use the
ventilating and heating equipment. Hoess testified that the
Tesch directors could not help but know of the use for their
product because they sold him enough to annihilate two million
people. Two Tesch partners were sentenced to death in 1946 and
hanged. The director of Degesch recieved five years in prison."
(Feig) (See also Breitman, 203-204, for a discussion of the early
involvement of Heerdt-Lingler)

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals,
Auschwitz (Klee, 255):

At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner*
ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one
medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to
be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the
same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews,
once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B -- as
already mentioned -- was in granular form, it trickled down over
the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry
out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I
did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as
soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes
there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been
ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead
lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful
sight. * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz

Zyklon-B is a powerful insecticide which serves as a carrier for the
gas Hydrocyanic acid, or HCN. It usually comes in the shape of small
pellets or disks. (See Breitman, 203, for more detail about the
early use of the gas at Auschwitz) HCN is the cause of death
following the application of Zyklon-B. While interacting with iron
and concrete, it creates Hydrocyanic compounds, which Leuchter
admitted were found in the ruins of the gas chamber in Krematoria II.
His finding was confirmed by findings of the Polish government.

HCN is *extremely poisonous* to humans. It is used in execution gas
chambers in the US; the first was built in Arizona in 1920.
Holocaust denial often includes the claim that Germany in the 1940's
could not handle the "technical difficulties" inherent in using HCN
for execution - "difficulties" that were easily solved in 1920.
Moreover, the Germans had a lot of experience with HCN, as it was
extensively used for delousing.

There were two types of gas chambers in Auschwitz: those used for
delousing clothes ("delousing gas chambers") and those used for
killing people on a massive scale ("extermination gas chambers").

The delousing gas chambers were a standard feature, and were left
intact by the SS (the extermination gas chambers were dynamited in an
effort to conceal criminal traces).

Holocaust denial asserts that because more Hydrocyanic compounds were
found in the delousing chambers in Auschwitz than in the ruins of the
extermination gas chambers, mass murder using the gas could not have
taken took place within, because the reverse would be true.

HCN is much more effective on warm-blooded animals, including humans,
than it is on insects. The exposure period (to HCN) is much greater
in delousing operations than in homicidal gassings. This means that
a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people than to get
rid of lice, etc. In delousing, concentrations of up to 16,000 ppm
(parts per million) are sometimes used, and exposure time can be up
to 72 hours; while 300 ppm will kill people in fifteen minutes or so.

Therefore, the HCN in the extermination chambers hardly had time to
form compounds on the walls. While some claim that the gas
would need a lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all
over the chamber, it simply is not true; the gas chambers were not
that large (those in Krematoria II and III were about 210 square
meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from four openings (still
visible in the ruins of the gas chambers). Since the concentration
used was higher than the lethal one, death was very swift.

Furthermore, the delousing chambers are intact while the
extermination chambers were blown up (a .GIF picture of the one of
Krema II is available). Therefore, their walls have been exposed to
the elements for the last 50 years. The ruins of the gas chamber of
Krema II are covered with about 3 feet of water during certain
periods of the year; HCN compounds easily dissolve in these
surroundings. Nonetheless, so much gassing took place that some of
the compound remained.

Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in
contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing
chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings
which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not.
Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in
them.

This fact - that all, or most, of the compounds would vanish during
45 years of exposure - is clearly stated in the report written by the
experts of the Cracow Institute of Forensic Research.

Holocaust deniers once claimed that the gas chamber in Krema I was
left intact, and therefore its walls were not exposed to the
elements. But - as they admit themselves - the gas chamber of Krema
I was used only for a short time, and than it was changed to an
air-raid shelter. After the liberation of the camp, it was
reconstructed to its original shape. This, and the fact that "only"
about 10,000 people were murdered inside it (compared to 350,000 and
400,000 in Kremas II and III) explain why relatively small amounts of
cyanide compounds remain. As for Kremas IV and V, they were
completely destroyed by the SS before the Soviets liberated the camp.

Finally, cyanide compounds were found on the ventilation grills of
the extermination chambers, proving beyond doubt that gassing did
take place inside them.

The claim that it would have been impossible to use the gas chambers
for killing, because they were too close to the furnaces, and the gas
would explode, is often found in Holocaust denial literature, and is
one of the assertions of the Leuchter report.

The concentration of HCN necessary to cause death is nearly 200 times
lower than that which causes explosion. Although the SS used a
concentration higher than the lethal one, it was far below that
causing explosion.

As a reference, one can look at "The Merck Index" and the "CRC
handbook of Chemistry and Physics", or consult any manual dealing
with toxicity and flammability of chemicals. For HCN, a
concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a
few minutes, while the minimal concentration that can result in an
explosion is 56,000 ppm.

Another common claim is that it takes 20 hours to air a room which
has been disinfected with Zyklon-B, and therefore the eyewitness
accounts giving a time of 20-30 minutes from when the gassing started
to when the bodies where carried out is impossible, because the
people carrying out the bodies would perish.

If one disinfects a building in ordinary commercial use, it should
not be reentered within 20 hours. That figure, however, has no
meaning in relation to the extermination chambers, because they were
forcibly ventilated. Fifteen minutes were enough to replace the air.
When ventilation was not used, the Sonderkommando (prisoners used as
forced labor) who took the bodies out had gas masks on. The Germans
had plenty of experience with gas, especially HCN, which was widely
used for delousing. They knew how to work with it without getting
hurt. It is absurd to use the 20 hour figure in this context, which
does not assume forced ventilation and takes a huge safety factor
into account. The SS didn't care much for the safety of the
Sonderkommando who had to enter the gas chambers to take the corpses
out.

Furthermore, what makes ventilation difficult and lengthy is the
presence of rugs, furniture, curtains, etc. Needless to say, these
were not present in the gas chambers - there was just bare concrete,
making ventilation fast and efficient.

If the "20 hours ventilation period" above was true, this would mean
that the corpses of people executed using cyanide gas in US gas
chambers would remain tied to the chair 20 hours after they were
killed...

Another common claim is that the "alleged" extermination chambers are
actually morgues, and that Zyklon-B was used in them as a disinfectant.

This claim stems from the fact that Hydrocyanic compounds were found
on the ventilation grills of the gas chambers in Krematoria II and
III (the chemical analysis was carried out by Dr. Jan Robel of the
Cracow Forensic Institute in December 1945, and was part of the
evidence in the trial of Auschwitz commander Hoess). This proves
that gassing did take place in that chamber. Zyklon-B cannot kill
anaerobic bacteria - it kills only aerobic organisms. That means it
would be useless for disinfecting corpses.

In closing, consider the testimony of SS private Hoeblinger:
(Langbein)

I was detailed to the transport service and I drove the Sanka
[abbreviation for Sanitatskraftwagon/medical truck] which was to
carry the prisoners....

Then we drove to the gas chambers. The medical orderlies
climbed a ladder, they had gas masks up there, and emptied the
cans. I was able to observe the prisoners while they were
undressing. It always proceeded quitely and without them
suspecting anything. It happened very quickly.

Note Pvt. Hoeblinger's mention of gas masks - some Holocaust deniers
insist that the SS-men dropping the gas would be killed by it, which
leads one to speculate about their reading ability.

Finally, the undeniable evidence that the SS ordered Degesch to
remove the indicator odor, mandated under German law, which was added
to the Zyklon B in order to provide a warning to human beings that
the lethal stuff was nearby. I believe this demonstrated clear
criminal intent - the SS would hardly have removed the indicator odor
if they had intended, as the denial set insists, to use the gas only
on insects and corpses... (get pub/orgs/german/farben.ig/farben.001 for
more information about this demand from the SS. Borkin, 123)

Recommended reading:

Barrington,J.H., ed. The Zyklon B Trial: Trial of Bruno Tesch and
Two Others. London, 1948, and Borkin (see Work Cited).

Harmon, Brian. Technical Aspects of the Holocaust: Cyanide, Zyklon-B,
aand Mass Murder. (get pub/camps/auschwitz/cyanide.001), 1994

United Nations War Crimes Commission. Law Reports of Trials of War
Criminals. Vol. 1, London, 1947. See pp. 93-104

3.0 Crematoria

Konnilyn Feig provides an overview of the operation of the
crematoria, and describes the process by which the stoking gangs
sorted bodies into combustability catagories as the result of earlier
experiments by the SS staff to reduce fuel consumption. In this
effort, they had the assistance of the firm of Topf and Sons, who had
built the crematoria.
(http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/auschwitz.01)

In essence, well-nourished corpses were burned with emaciated ones in
order to determine the most efficient combination. Three to four
bodies were burned at a time, and different kinds of coke were used,
then the results were recorded:

Afterwards, all corpses were divided into the above-mentioned
catagories, the criterion being the amount of coke required to
reduce them to ashes. Thus it was decreed that the most
economical and fuel-saving procedure would be to burn the bodies
of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa,
together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had
established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the
dead would continue to burn without any further coke being
required. (Mu"ller, 60-61; Klarsfield, 99-100)

The need for large-scale efficiency, to cope with the astounding
number of corpses produced by the gas chambers, eventually led to the
design and construction of new crematoria, and daily capacity rose
from as low as six hundred forty eight per day (Mu"ller's 1942
figure) to a high of over ten thousand (Hoess, Gricksch), but, as
Feig tells us, the SS eventually had to employ large pyres and pits
to dispose of the mounting pile of corpses:

As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new
installation. ... Eventually the ovens seemed to
fall apart. Crematorium Four failed completely after a short
time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down repeatedly. (TWC,
V:624) (Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found five
manuscripts written by Sonderkommando members before their
deaths. The published manuscripts and documents relate to the
specific process of extermination at Birkenau, and provide
detailed descriptions of the crematoria and gas chambers.)

The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to
handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex
had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five
persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It
took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically
possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or
4,380,000 a year. But the well-constructed crematoria fell far
behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in
1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of
24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities
needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they
again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old
pits in the wood. Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the
chief method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at
one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits
burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities
of boiling human fat over the bodies.

4.0 Compiling Estimates of the Numbers Exterminated

When the extermination camps failed to achieve their objective, the
total extermination of European Jewry, by the end of 1942, Heinrich
Himmler commissioned a statistical report in order to determine what
'progress' had been made.

In January of 1943, Dr. Richard Korherr, a noted statistician who was
outside SS circles, working with Adolf Eichmann and camp commanders,
began compiling reports and figures to present to Himmler. As
Breitman relates,

Korherr's job was complicated by the fact that, even in a report
designed for Himmler, he was not supposed to spell out the facts
in black and white. It was easier to state how many Jews were
still alive than what had happened to the others. To be sure,
Korherr could state that through various means the Jewish
population in the Reich and the Government General had
diminished by 3.1 million between 1933 and 1942. In spite of
his generous use of the term "evacuation," however, which
Himmler seconded, to mislead those who would read the document
in later years, Himmler had to correct Korherr's wording in one
place. Where Korherr had written of the "special treatment" of
the Jews, Himmler had insisted on either the "transportation of
the Jews from the Eastern provinces to the Russian East" or the
"sifting of the Jews through the camps." These were among the
officially approved terms to camouflage the realities of the
Final Solution. (Korherr's reports in NA RG 238, NO-5193 and
5194, Himmler's correction of wording in Brandt to Korherr, 20
April 1943. NA RG 238, NO-5196. Raul Hilberg, The Destruction
of the European Jews {Chicago, 1961}, 2nd expanded ed., 3 vols.
{New York, 1985},I, 322-23, reviews the whole range of Nazi
terms that veiled the realities.) (Breitman, 242)

Note that Himmler was successful in his attempts to camouflage
reality to the degree that present-day Holocaust denial insists that
Jews were simply "relocated to the East," and not exterminated.
Eichmann's interrogation regarding the total number of victims
supports Fleming's figure of about five million killed
(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/e/eichmann.adolf/eichmann.005),
while figures compiled by Yehuda Bauer, of Yad Vashem, Jerusalem,
are somewhat higher.

Bauer's figures are in the right-most column:

German Reich (boundaries of 1938) 130,000 125,000
Austria 58,000 65,000
Belgium 26,000
Belgium & Luxembourg 24,700
Bulgaria 7,000
Czechoslovakia (boundaries of 1938) 245,000 277,000
France 64,000 83,000
Greece 58,000 65,000
Hungary & Carpatho-Ukraine 300,000 402,000*
Italy 8,000 7,500*
Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia 200,000
Luxembourg 3,000
Netherlands 101,800 106,000
Norway 677 760
Poland (boundaries of 1939) 2,700,000
Polish-Soviet area 4,565,000
Romania (boundaries prior to 1940) 220,000 40,000
USSR (boundaries prior to 1939) 800,000
Yugoslavia 54,000 60,000*
-----------------
4,975,477 5,820,960
* May be underestimated

4.1 How many people died at Auschwitz?

Foner's Spotlight article makes the following assertions regarding the
number of people killed at the camp:

Like most Americans, since his youth Cole had been instructed
in the "irrefutable fact" that homicidal gassings had taken
place at Auschwitz. The number of those so executed - also
declared irrefutable - was 4.1 million.

Then came the Leuchter Report in 1988. This was followed by a
"re-evaluation" of the total deaths at Auschwitz (down to 1.1
million). As a budding historian - and a Jew - Cole was
intrigued.

Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million
"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least). Quietly, because of
revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1
million. No mention of that missing 3 million.

Foner's assertions are simply not true; although it is correct to note
that the Polish Communist government did claim that four million people
were exterminated at Auschwitz, historians (Feig, Reitlinger, Hilberg,
et al.) have never supported that figure. Consider the estimates
provided by Buszko at the end of his article on Auschwitz, which appeared
in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust:

Of the 405,000 registered prisoners, 65,000 survived
Of the 16,000 Soviet POW's, 96 survived
Various estimates suggest 1.6 million were murdered

Buszko's article, and the above estimates, appeared in the 1990 edition
of the Encyclopedia, which clearly puts the lie to Foner's comment that
"anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million ..." figure "previous to
1992..." was "...labeled an anti-Semite..." Buszko is not only a Jewish
historian, but Polish as well.

Leon Poliakov, the author of the well-documented "Harvest of
Hate," which was, we note, first published in _1956_, provides
the following information, which clearly demonstrates that Foner's
contention, cited above, is an outright lie:

After some thirty months of intense activity, the Auschwitz
balance sheet showed close to two million immediate
exterminations (this figure can never be fixed exactly), (8) to
which one must add the deaths of some 300,000 registered
prisoners - Jews for the most part, but not entirely - for whom
the gas chamber was only one of any number of ways by which they
might have perished. (Poliakov, 202)

(8) In his affidavits, Hoess spoke of two and a half million,
'a figure set officially,' he wrote, under the signature of
[Eichmann], in a report to Himmler. This figure has been
accepted by several authors, and it appears in the verdict at
the trial of the major war criminals. However, there is no
reason for accepting without question the statistics attributed
to Eichmann, which may err on either side. Adding the number of
victims to those deported from different countries gives a lower
figure, although we have little data, for example, on the number
of Polish Jews sent to Auschwitz. An approximate figure in the
neighborhood of two million seems closer to the truth."
(Ibid.)

Feig also provides evidence of the false nature of Foner's comment when
she notes that `Hoess testified that the Tesch directors could not help
but know of the use for their product because they sold him enough to
annihilate two million people.' Feig's book was published in 1981.

luciferhorus

15-05-2009, 03:06 AM

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/30/holocaust.jpg

HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (2/2) (Extract)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/auschwitz/part02/

According to Snyder, Adolf Eichmann reported to Himmler, in 1944, that
four million had been killed in the camps, and another million had been
shot or killed by mobile units. (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich.
1989) Eichmann's report, which referenced _all_ the camps (most of which
were in Nazi-occupied Poland), may have been the source of the Polish
Communist government's figures. (Snyder is a Professor of History at
the City College and the City University of New York.)

During the war crimes trials, Hoess was asked if it was true that
he had no exact numbers because he had been forbidden to compile them,
and he agreed. He also agreed that Adolf Eichmann had told him that
two and one half million people had been exterminated there.
(von Lang, 120, and 'Wspomnienia Rudolfa Hoessa komendanta obozu
oswiecimskiego,' Warsaw, 1965.)

The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschichte, Munich, provided the following
capsulated paragraph about Auschwitz in a March, 1992, letter of
inquiry.
(http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/ifz/ifz.report)

The extermination camp in Birkenau, established in the second
half of 1941, was joined to the concentration camp Auschwitz,
existing since May 1940. From January 1942 on in five gas
chambers and from the end of June 1943 in four additional large
gassing-rooms gassings with Zyklon B have been undertaken. Up
until November 1944 more than one million Jews and at least 4000
gypsies have been murdered by gas. (IFZ)

While it is admittedly difficult to compile exact figures, since the
Nazis did not maintain registration records for those who were to be
exterminated immediately upon arrival at Auschwitz, it seems accurate
to assert that the number of Jews killed fell somewhere between one
and one-point-six million.

Jews were not the only victims of the Auschwitz killing machine -
estimates that from 200,000 (Gilbert, 22, Kendrick, 184) to 500,000
(Bubenickova, 190, Yoors, 34) Gypsies were ultimately destroyed are
noted by Laska. Himmler signed the decree sending all of them to
Auschwitz in 1942. In addition, an unknown number of homosexuals were
sent to Auschwitz and executed.

The Leuchter Report, which Foner alludes to extensively in his Spotlight
article, has been thoroughly refuted. For detailed information about the
report, see the Leuchter FAQ, published regularly in this newsgroup.
(http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/)

4.2 Estimates of dead by nationality [Work in progress]

4.2.3 Polish Christians

The number of Polish Christians registered at Auschwitz is
given as at 137,000, and "at least" 10,000 more were put
murdered without registration. (Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death
Camp, 69-70) Lucas tells us that historians disagree with
regard to the total number of Polish Christians killed by
the Nazis, Lukas, 88-95) and Bauer reportedly puts the figure
at 83,000. (Steinfels, Peter. "Auschwitz Revisionism: An
Israeli Scholar's Case," New York Times, 12 Nov. 1989

5.0 Administration
5.1 Command Staff

Fritsch, Hauptsturmfu"hrer (Credited with the first use of Zyklon-B
as means of exterminating human subjects. See Breitman, 202)

Grabner, Maximillian. Head of Political Department

[Auschwitz] [Page 16]

Hoess, Rudolf Franz (1900-1947). Hoess joined the Nazi party in
1922. In 1923, he was implicated in a murder and imprisoned to serve
a life sentence. He was released as a result of a general
amnesty, in 1928. After training during service at Dachau and
Sachsenhausen, he was rewarded for his loyalty with a promotion to the
rank of SS-Hauptsturmfu"hrer (see Glossary) and the commandant's job
at Auschwitz, where he remained until December of 1943, when he was
promoted to chief of the Central Administration for Camps. (Sachar.
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/hoess.01
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/hoess.02
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/hoess.03)
According to Snyder, " He performed his job so well that he was
commended in a 1944 SS report that called him "a true pioneer in this
area because of his new ideas and educational methods."

Hoess was captured on March 11, 1946, and was a key witness at Nuremberg
(Kaltenbrunner, I.G. Farben et al). On May 25, he was extradited
to Poland. During this period, he wrote his autobiography, "Commandant
of Auschwitz: Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess." (Cleveland: World
Publishing, 1959) His statement is available in the original German
text, and in English translation. (Get
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/hoess.statemen)

According to Sachar, he, "...took pride in his exemplary family life,
the devotion to his children and his pets. He recalled, wistfully,
how he had been obliged to tear himself away from a Christmas
gathering to attend to duties at the gas chambers. The daily death
quota then was still a mere 1,500, but he was eager to make sure it
was met. When one of his lieutenants was condemned to death for his
part in the Auschwitz murders, Hoess and his family lamented `Such a
compassionate man, too. When his pet canary died, he tenderly put
the body in a small box, covered it with a rose, and buried it under
a rose bush in the garden.'(Hoess, 25)(Sachar)

During his trial, the evidence "...repeated...what he had written..."
in his autobiography. "He described, with the dispassion of a robot,
how he had gradually stepped up executions, beginning with a few
hundred a day and then, as methods were perfected, rising to 1,200.
By mid-1942, facilities had been sufficiently enlarged to dispatch
1,500 people over a twenty-four-hour period for the smaller ovens,
and up to 2,500 for the larger ones. By 1943, ... a new daily peak
of 12,000 was achieved. Hoess described the final routines of the
extermination process. These were assigned to squads of Jewish
prisoners, the Sondercommandos. They marched the victims to the gas
chambers, helped to undress them, removed the corpses after the
gassing, extracted gold from their teeth and rings from their
fingers, searched the orifices of their bodies for hidden jewelry,
cut off the hair of the women, and then carted the bodies to the
crematoria. Usually after several weeks of such service they were
executed, first because they were Jews but also so that they would
not be witnesses if ever testimony were required." (Sachar)

Hoess was tried in Warsaw, in March, 1947, and condemned to death.
(Hanged on April 16, 1947, at Auschwitz.)

5.2 Medical Staff

Testimony from German court records relating to the trials of SS men
charged with medical killing at Auschwitz is now available from our
archives. The source for this data, Nauman, is listed in Section 6.1,
Recommended Reading.
(http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/auschwitz.010)

Clauberg, Karl. Pursued his experiments on live specimens in
Auschwitz. Involved in sterilization projects there. (Laska, 222)

Dr. Wladyslav Dering. Dering was a Polish prisoner
Dr. Entress

Gebhardt, Karl. Involved in vivisection projects at both Ravensbruck
and Auschwitz. Shot as war criminal in 1948. (Laska, 225)

Hantl
Klehr

Kremer, Johannes Paul. Vivisection. Sentenced to death in a Crakov
trial, but later recieved amnesty.

Mengele, Josef (1911- ?). Mengele was appointed chief doctor at
Birkenau by the Camp Garrison Doctor in 1943. He joined Drs. Klein,
Koenig, and Thilon in running the selection process. Bibliography:
Gerald L. Posner and John Ware, "Mengele: The Complete Story", New York,
McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1986.(Snyder) Mengele is believed dead,
but his fate remains unknown. (See the 1991 "Children of the Flames,"
for citations regarding Mengele's experimentation on twins)

Muench, Hans. SS Untersturmfuehrer.

The doctor and former SS-Untersturmfuehrer Hans Muench was among
the 40 members of the Auschwitz camp personnel indicted and tried
in Krakow in Poland 1946-1947. The trial led to some 20 death
sentences, but Muench was acquitted.

He had taken part in gassings but had refused to assist in the
so-called selections. Some ex-prisoners also testified in his
favour. After his release, Muench returned to Germany where he
continued his medical practice. In 1964 he testified at the
Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt am Main. He agreed to an interview
with Swedish television in 1981, against the wish of his family.
It has been broadcasted twice on Swedish TV, in 1982 and 1992.
A translation of this television interview may be found at
ftp.nizkor.org, in the directory pub/people/m/muench.hans, as
swedish-television-interview (our thanks to a Swedish user for
providing this text). Snippets from court testimony are
also available in the same directory.

Oberhauser, Herta.

Scherpe

Schumann, Horst.

5.3 Selection

In a report entitled "Resettlement of Jews," SS-Sturmbannfu"hrer
Gricksch provided the following information for SS-Col. von Herff
and Reichsfu"hrer-SS Himmler, after inspection between the 14th. and
16th. of May, 1943. (Fleming, 142)

The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the
Jewish question. The most advance methods permit the execution
of the Fuehrer-order in the shortest possible time and without
arousing much attention. The so-called "resettlement action"
runs the following course: The Jews arrive in special trains
(freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks
to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose.

There the Jews are unloaded and examined for their fitness to
work by a team of doctors, in the presence of the camp
commandant and several SS officers. At this point anyone who
can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a
special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical
camp and are restored to health through a special diet. The
basic principle behind everything is: conserve all manpower for
work. The previous type of "resettlement action" has been
thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to destroy precious
work energy on a continual basis.

The report then describes the fate of those unlucky enough to have
been considered incurably ill or unfit for slave labour, and provides
some details with regard to the killing process.

The results of this "resettlement action" to date: 500,000 Jews.
Current capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in
24 hours.

5.4 Tattooing

Buszko (see above), writing in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust,
explains why some prisoners were tattooed, while others were not:

Prisoners were registered and received numbers tattooed on
their left arm upon leaving the quarantine in Birkenau for
forced labor in Auschwitz or in one of the subcamps. The same
procedure applied to those prisoners who were directed straight
to Auschwitz I: 405,000 prisoners were registered in this way.
[Ed. Note: Buszko later notes that only 65,000 of those so
registered and tattooed survived. knm] Not included in any
form of registration were the vast majority of the Auschwitz
victims, those men and women who, upon arrival in Auschwitz II,
were led to the gas chambers and killed there immediately.
Also not included in the registration were those prisoners who
were sent to work in other concentration camps not belonging to
the Auschwitz system. ... Still another group of unregistered
prisoners were those who were designated for execution after a
short stay in the camp. That group consisted mainly of
hostages, Soviet army officers, and partisans." (Encyclopedia,
Vol. I, 110-111)

5.5 Medical Experimentation

Several of the seventy or more medical-research projects conducted by
the Nazis between the fall of 1939 and spring of 1945 were conducted
at Auschwitz. These projects involved experiments conducted with
human beings against their will, and at least seven thousand were so
treated, based upon existing documents and personal testimonies;
there were undoubtedly many more for which no documentation or
personal testimony remains.

About two hundred German medical doctors were involved in the
concentration camp experiments, conducting 'Selektionen,' medical
services, and research. They maintained close professional ties with
the German medical establishment, and used the universities and
research institutes in Germany and Austria in their work.

Dr. Ernst Robert Grawitz, SS Chief Medical Officer, received all
requests for authority to perform experimentation, and obtained two
opinions before passing them to Himmler with his recommendation.

Grawitz used Dr. Karl Gebhardt, Himmler's personal physician, for
one opinion, and Richard Glu"cks and Arthur Nebe for the other. He
then passed his report to Himmler, who took great interest in the
experiments and often interfered with them.

There were three broad classes of experiments. The German Air Force
conducted experiments at Dachau (and elsewhere) dealing with survival
and rescue, including research into the effects of high altitude,
freezing temperatures, and the ingestion of seawater.

Medical treatment constituted a second class, and involved research
into the treatment of battle injuries, gas attacks, and the
formulation of immunization compounds to treat contageous and
epidemic diseases.

Finally, there were racial experiments, including research into
dwarfs and twins, serological research, and skeletal examination. It
is this class of horrors that returns us to Auschwitz.
(Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, 957-958)

During his interrogation of Adolf Eichmann, Israeli police Captain
Avner Less brought up the subject of Eichmann's complicity in medical
'research' projects which had been approved by the Reichsfu"hrer-SS,
Heinrich Himmler, and read three documents to him. What follows is
the text of Less's interrogation at that point...

LESS: I have some photostats of documents that were submitted in
the first Nuremberg war crimes trial, the trial of the
physicians. The sender of this letter is the business manager
of Ahnenerbe. I'll read it to you. "Berlin, November 2, 1942.
Secret. To SS-Obersturmbannfu"hrer Dr. Brandt. Dear Comrade
Brandt: As you know, the Reichsfu"hrer-SS gave orders some time
ago to the effect that SS-Hauptsturmfu"hrer Prof. Dr. Hirt
should be supplied with everything he requires for his research.
For certain anthropological investigations -- I have already
reported to the Reichsfu"hrer-SS on the subject -- 150 skeletons
of prisoners or Jews are needed, and these are to be made
available by the Auschwitz concentration camp." Etc. etc. It's
signed: "With comradely greetings, Heil Hitler, Yours, Sievers."

The second document is a report by this Professor Hirt. "Re:
Procurement of the skulls of Jewish-Bolshevistic commissars for
scientific research at the University of Strassburg." I quote:
"Extensive skull collections from nearly all races and people
are in existence. It is only of Jews that so few skulls are
available to science that work on them admits of no secure
findings. The war in the East now offers us an opportunity to
make good this deficiency. In the Jewish-Bolshevistic
commissars, who embody a repulsive and characteristic type of
subhuman, we have the possibility of acquiring a reliable
scientific document by acquiring their skulls. The smoothest
and most expeditious way of obtaining and securing this
provision of skulls would be to instruct the Wehrmacht to hand
over all Jewish-Bolshevistic commissars immediately to the
military police. The person charged with securing this material
(a young physician or medical student belonging to the Werhmacht
or better still to the military police) is to prepare a
previously specified series of photographs and anthropoligical
measurements. After the subsequently induced death of the Jew,
whose head must not be injured, he will separate the head from
the trunk and send it, immersed in a preserving fluid, in
well-sealed lead containers made especially for this purpose, to
the designated address."

And now the next document. A letter of June 21, 1943. From
Ahnenerbe. Top secret. "To Reich Security Headquarters IVB4,
Attention: SS-Obersturmfu"hrer Eichmann. Re: Skeleton
collection. With reference to your letter of September 25,
1942, and the consultations held since then regarding the
above-mentioned matter, we wish to inform you that Dr. Bruno
Beger, our staff member charged with the above-mentioned special
mission, terminated his work in the Auschwitz concentration camp
on June 15, 1943, because of the danger of an epidemic. In all,
115 persons, 79 male Jews, 2 Poles, 4 Central Asians, and 30
Jewesses, were processed. These inmates have been placed, men
and women separately, in the concentration-camp sick quarters,
and quarantined. For the further processing of these selected
persons, immediate transfer to Natzweiler concentration camp is
desirable and should be effected as quickly as possible in view
of the danger of infection in Auschwitz. A list of the selected
persons is appended. You are requested to send the necessary
instructions."

And now for the last document. "The Reichsfu"hrer-SS Personal
Staff, Field Headquarters, November 6, 1942. Secret. To Reich
Security Headquarters IVB4. Attention: SS-Obersturmfu"hrer
Eichmann. The Reichsfu"hrer-SS has ordered that Dr. Hirt, head
of the Anatomy Department in Strassburg, should be supplied with
everything needed for his research. In the name of the
Reichsfu"hrer-SS, I therefore request you to help establish the
projected skeleton collection. per. proc.
SS-Obersturmbannfu"hrer Brandt." (von Lang, 169-171)

Thus the German government's full complicity in the crimes committed
at Auschwitz under the guise of "medical research" is clear, with a
chain of evidence reaching all the way to Himmler.

5.5.1 Clauberg

Professor Carl Clauberg performed experiments into sterilization at
both Auschwitz and Ravensbru"ck. This was done on Hitler's
initiative, as he had been convinced by several doctors that mass
sterilization could provide a powerful weapon against Germany's
enemies during total war.

Clauberg injected chemical substances into wombs during normal
gynochological examinations. Thousands of Jewish and Gypsy women were
subjected to this treatment. Clauberg sought to answer Himmler's
query about how long it would take to sterilize one thousand women,
and eventually informed him that, using methods he developed, a staff
of one doctor and ten assistants could do the job in a single day.
The injections totally destroyed the lining membrane of the womb and
seriously damaged the ovaries of the victims, which were then removed
and sent to Berlin to test the effectiveness of the method.
(Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, 964)

5.5.2 Mandel

... after Ravensbruck ... was the head of the women's camp at
Auschwitz; the prisoners referred to her as `the beast.' For her
share in the selections for the gas chambers and medical
experiments and for her torture of countless prisoners, she was
condemned to death in 1947 as a war criminal. (Laska)

5.5.3 Mengele

Mengele promoted medical experimentation on inmates, especially
dwarfs and twins. He is said to have supervised an operation by
which two Gypsy children were sewn together to create Siamses twins;
the hands of the children became badly infected where the veins had
been resected. (Snyder)

Cohen tells us: "The only firsthand evidence on these experiments
comes from a handful of survivors and from a Jewish doctor, Miklos
Nyiszli, who worked under Mengele as a pathologist. Mengele subjected
his victims - twins and dwarfs aged two and above - to clinical
examinations, blood tests, X rays, and anthropological measurements.
In the case of the twins, he drew sketches of each twin, for
comparison. He also injected his victims with various substances,
dripping chemicals into their eyes (apparently in an attempt to
change their color). He then killed them himself by injecting
chloroform into their hearts, so as to carry out comparative
pathological examinations of their internal organs. Mengele's
purpose, according to Dr. Nyiszli, was to establish the genetic cause
for the birth of twins, in order to facilitate the formulation of a
program for doubling the birthrate of the 'Aryan' race. The
experiments on twins affected 180 persons, adults and children.

Mengele also carried out a large number of experiments in the field
of contageous diseases, (typhoid and tuberculosis) to find out how
human beings of different races withstood these diseases. He used
Gypsy twins for this purpose. Mengele's experiments combined

scientific (perhaps even important) research with the racist and
ideological aims of the Nazi regime. which made use of government
offices, scientific institutions, and concentration camps. From the
scanty information available, it appears that his research differed
from the other medical experiments in that the victims' death was
programmed into his experiments and formed a central element in it." (Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, 964)

5.5.4 Oberhauser

Dr. Herta Oberhauser killed prisoners with oil and evipan
injections, removed their limbs and vital organs, rubbed ground
glass and sawdust into wounds. She drew a twenty-year sentence
as a war criminal, but was released in 1952 and became a family
doctor at Stocksee in Germany. Her license to practice medicine
was revoked in 1960. (Laska, 223)

5.5.5 Schumann

Himmler, writing to SS-Oberfu"hrer Brack, on August 11, 1942,
expressed an interest in sterilization experiments involving
the use of x-rays (Get pub/camps/auschwitz/sterilization). In April
of 1944, he received a report of the work of Dr. Horst Schumann
"on the influence of X-rays on human genital glands" at Auschwitz.
The report included the following statement:

Previously you have asked Oberfuehrer Brack to perform this
work, and you supported it by providing the adequate material in
the concentration camp Auschwitz. I point especially to the
second part of this work, which shows that by those means
castration of males is almost impossible or requires an effort
which does not pay. As I have convinced myself, operative
castration requires not more than 6 to 7 minutes, and therefore
can be performed more reliably and quicker than castration by
X-rays.

Schumann set up an X ray station at Auschwitz in 1942, in the woman's
camp Bla. Here men and women were forcibly sterilized by being
positioned repeatedly for several minutes between two x-ray machines,
the rays aiming at their sexual organs. Most subjects died after
great suffering, or were gassed immediately because the radiation
burns from which they suffered rendered them unfit for work. Men's
testicles were removed and sent to Breslau for histopathological
examination. The frequently following ovariotomies were performed
also by the Polish prisoner, Dr. Wladyslav Dering. Dering once bet
with an SS man that he could perform ten ovariotomies in an
afternoon, and won his bet. Some of his victims survived. Dering
was declared a war criminal but eluded justice and for a time
practiced medicine in British Somaliland. (Laska, 223. Encyclopedia,
Vol. 3, 965)

6.0 Research Materials & Sources

Vera Laska notes that there are over ten-thousand printed sources
relating to Auschwitz alone, and offers this guidance for those pursuing
Holocaust research:

Yad Vashem Martyrs' and Heroes' Memorial Authority in Jerusalem
is a depository of documents and memoirs on the Holocaust,
mostly in German, Hebrew and Yiddish. It also issues the Yad
Vashem Studies on the European Jewish Catastrophe and
Resistance. (The 1991 Yad Vashem English publications guide is
now included in the Holocaust Almanac bibliographies. Get
pub/holocaust/bibliography/biblio.05)

The Centre de Documentation Juive Contemporaine in Paris and
the Wiener Library in London are major sources of information.
The Wiener Library's catalogue series published a bibliography,
Persecution and Resistance Under the Nazis (London: Valentine,
Mitchell, 1960). ...

In the United States the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research
(1048 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10028) houses several
collections of ghetto documents and related primary source
materials. It publishes the YIVO Annual of Jewish Social
Science. Since 1960, Yad Vashem* and the YIVO** Institute have
been engaged in preparing a multivolume bibliographical series
on the Holocaust; one of the volumes, Jacob Robinson, ed., The
Holocaust and After: Sources and Literature in English
(Jerusalem: Israel University Press, 1973) is most helpful.

* (URL: http:/yvs.shani.net/)
** (URL: http://www.ort.org/communit/yivo/start.html)

The Library of Congress and the National Archives are rich
sources for researchers, containing among others the
transcripts of war crime trials. This in itself is an immense
documentation; for instance, the Nuremberg Doctors' Trial of
twenty-three defendents alone takes up 11,538 pages in nineteen
volumes. Indexes can be consulted about various concentration
camps. ...

In addition to the massive amount of information Laska notes, additional
bibliographic sources are available through the Holocaust bibliographic
files available on http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?bibliographies and
elsewhere. In particluar, see the list of major research centres listed in
EDUCATION RESEARCH.CNTRS, which was added to our archives in December, 1994.
http://romaniroots.webs.com/holocaust.jpg
________

The entire article with further references and bibliography can be read on:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/auschwitz/part02/

luciferhorus

15-05-2009, 03:27 AM

Addendum

Since this is the David Icke forum, I suspect that in common with myself, very few of you believe the Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorist propaganda regarding 9/11, 7/7 and numerous other black operations / false flag operations, etc; however the evidence of the history of state terrorist false flag operations is in my judgement overwhelming, as I am sure that most of you will concur.

It is one thing entirely to dismiss the state terrorist propaganda on such issues and it is another matter entirely to dismiss the overwhelming evidence of Nazi atrocities and genocide.

Generally on debating forums of the political left it is virtually impossible to mention David Icke without his 'reptilian' theories being ridiculed and more importantly the raising of the issue that his views do appeal to many of the Far Right; this is very much a shame, since it is view that the Left in general fail to understand that the world is not only ruled by Capitalist devils, but by powerful religous cultists; a perspective which Icke appears to fully understand.

Personally I do not believe that the world is ruled by shape-shifting reptiles and I consider this to be total nonsense; the shape-shifting reptile idea simply destroys Icke's credibility, as does the fact that he has many supporters of the Far Political Right, though in the latter case I would defend him, since the views expressed in his writings make it clear that he is certainly not cut from the same ideological cloth as the Far Right.

It is one thing entirely to seek to expose the propaganda and false flag operations of the state terrorists and it is another thing entirely to tar yourselves with the brush of Holocaust Revisionism and Neo-Nazi propaganda; these are entirely separate matters and should not and need not be confused and lumped together.

Holocaust Revisionism is further a distraction from the the true historical revisionism that should be taking place regarding the financing of Nazi Germany; the Nazis were financed with American Capital; Capitalists whose descendents today continue to profit from their wars and Capitalist revolutions and where food is considered a Capitalist commodity, in a world where a billion people are constantly hungry and where 20,000 children die each day from the effects of poverty; that is Capitalism's current holocaust and the yearly death imposed by Capitalism on humanity far exceeds 6 million victims.

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/jesus_bush.gif

nambo

16-05-2009, 04:11 PM

dogsmilk

16-05-2009, 05:07 PM

luciferhorus

17-05-2009, 01:49 AM

Now I dont see discussion about the Holocaust as a distraction.
I see it as part of the overall conspiracy, namely, for the Jews to reclaim Palestine as thier Holy land, with the intention of running thier New World Order, Jewish supremecy from Jerusalem.

Lucifer

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

I have dealt with some of the general issues raised by anti-Jewish propagandists in my essay on this forum, on 'Zion.'

It is simply ridiculous to group all the millions of Jewish people together as if a 'gang;' they are as ideologically divided as are the Europeans and indeed the world in general.

They range from religious fanatics, the synagogue religionists who are generally the minority to the vast majority of atheists, leftists, socialists and communists; particularly this is the case among the younger generation who have absorbed themselves into the European culture and dissasociated themselves from any religious identity and particularly from the ramblings of the religious fanatics, the Torah, the Talmud, etc.

There are 7 million people in Occupied Palestine; a third of them are Arabs; the Israeli Jews are a tiny minority surrounded by a billion Muslims; there is simply no hope of this tiny nation surviving the onslaught of apocalyptic war.

The concept of global slave revolution or 'Communist' revolution cannot be confined to such a state; one nation is not enough, the liberation of the entire world from the diseases of Capitalism, racism and nationalism is the common agenda, and this includes the eradication of 'Judeao-Capitalism.'

With regards to 'Judeao-Communism,' this is a major part of the revolution and within that you shall find the Vanguard of Revolution; the mythical 144,000 righteous of Israel, who are as genocidal, if not more so than the nationalists, racists, Christians and Capitalists, etc.

Thier numerological interpretation of a Leviticus scripture told them 6 million must perish in order for them to return to the Holy Land from where God told them they would rule all the nations.
They where going to make sure that happened, they tried the 6 million figure in the first world war, but couldnt make it stick, it is this fact that makes me doubt all the evidence "they" present that it did happen 25 years later, something that was so important to them to happen.

I think I could speak collectively for the Judaeo Communists, Marxists, Socialists and Anarchists, that whatever is written in Leviticus is simply the ramblings of our overtly superstitious ancestors and has long been superceded by modern intellectuals and socialist political writers and prophets such as Marx, Trotsky, Chomsky and do forth.

With regards to World War One, there is a Scottish joke which I often retell, that it is a good thing that the Scots fought in World War One and Two or they would be ruled by Germans.

Those who are aware of the German lineage of the current British monarch will understand this.

World War Two may have been an ideological War and a war of Capital, but the previous war (WWI) was, as Bertrand Russell (who opposed WW1) pointed out, simply a war between the European aristocracy which had nothing to do with the European proletariat who were the ones sent to fight for the false cause of nationalism.

What would it matter if the Wilhelm dynasty or their relatives the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (aka Windsor) dynasty ruled the British? The British anyway are Capitalist slaves who worship a Germanic monarch and psychophantically are willing to kill an be killed for her and her Israelite Communist, anti-propertyist, anti-monetarist god (Jesus).

The fact Hitler was financed by American Elite, does not change the conspirac, for the high level Jews are quite happy to sacrifice the ordinary Jew to get thier Kingdom.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1569802351.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

I don't dispute this point, and I refer you to Lenni Brenner's Zionism in the Age of the Dictators A Reappraisal (1983) Full text on.
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

I previously mistakenly described Brenner on this forum as a German Marxist; rather he is an American Marxist.

As Bremmer himself stated

"During the world war, Zionism showed its real meaning: for the sake of its ambitions, it sacrificed the blood of millions of Jews."

Another view is that the Jews have given up waiting for the Messiah to rule from Israel, so have become thier own Messiah, the death and suffering of themselves fullfilling the sciptures that point to the fate of the Messiah.

Just as Russia was destroyed for standing up against the international Bankers, Prussia was such a powerfull empire it had to be got rid of, the Jew Churchill said as such in 1933, and the ethnic cleansing of Germans before and after the reign of Hitler confirms this.

Churchill's mother was of Jewish descent, but he himself allied himself with the Hertzl Zionists (the Captialists) against the Communist Zionists, and I am for the latter and against the former.

From Churchill's pen in "Zionism versus Bolshevism: A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People." ILLUSTRATED SUNDAY HERALD, London, February 8, 1920:

"In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish efforts rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide revolutionary conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster has ably shown, a definite recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworlds of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of the enormous empire.

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creating of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It is certainly the very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders... In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astounding. And the prominent if not the principal part in the system of terrorism applied by the extraordinary Commissions for combating Counter Revolution has been take by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many nonJews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.

("Zionism versus Bolshevism: A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People." ILLUSTRATED SUNDAY HERALD, London, February 8, 1920.)

I must point out further however that Churchill's assertion that Lenin was 'not' Jewish is incorrect.

Most people have diverse ancestry, but select certain features of it with which to identify. This subjective factor - in the mind - far outweighs race. Ten generations back, each of us has 1024 ancestors; to select one (eg the bearer of our surname or religion) to identify with, is arbitary, but meaningful in cultural terms.

In Volkogonov's biography of Lenin (Volkoganov was Director of the Institute For Military History in the USSR), he writes of Lenin's Jewish self-identity: Lenin's sister Anna confirmed it in a letter to Stalin.

In her letter to Stalin, Anna wrote, 'It's probably no secret for you that the research on our grandfather shows that he came from a poor Jewish family ... she also asserted ... that Lenin's Jewish origins 'are further confirmation of the exceptional abilities of the Semitic tribe, [confirmation] always shared by Ilyich [Lenin] ... Ilyich always valued the Jews highly'. ... Anna's claim explains, for instance, why Lenin frequently recommended giving foreigners, especially Jews, intellectually demanding tasks, and leaving the elementary work to the 'Russian fools'.. .' But Stalin, the Russified Georgian, could not allow it to be known that Lenin had Jewish roots, and his strict prohibition remained firmly in place."

http://www.mailstar.net/lenin-trotsky.html

An integral part of this is demonisation of the victim country in the minds of the populous of the aggressors, we see it today with 911 and so called terrorism demonising Islam and by the same people who back then wanted Germany out of the way.

The "Holocaust" has brought much to the Elie Zionists, Palestine for a start, a heck of a lot of money, especially from Germany, and most dangerously, emotional blackmail due to the suffering of the poor Jews that laws can be passed so that nobody can ever dare try and complain as they establish thier world Governmnet and turn us human cattle into the slaves they belive God has promised for them.

I do not know this god of the bible and I care not for him; on the contrary I will not be satisfied until the last of the blood of those who claim to be his adherents and collaborators are purged from the face of the earth and from below the earth.

My robes, the sword of my mouth and my pen are already dipped in his blood of his cultists and I will not be satisfied until the last of them are eradicated.

The Judaeo Capitalists are in my judgement morally subhuman and the chaff and useless eaters ('untermensche') fit only for the the ovens of the Final Holocaust, but I shall not have their blood mixed with the Judaeo-Communists of whom I have long been their 'defensor fides,' and of whose blood I am innocent, though I willingly accept responsibility for the blood of their enemies and seek vengeance against their persecutors.

Rivers of blood I demand; war, revolution, holocaust, anything good but strong

Apocalyptic War shall ensure; the kingdoms of Capital shall fall.

Lucifer

No mercy on they who deserve none.
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

onourwayto2012

17-05-2009, 02:45 AM

Speaking of "bullshit detectors"...... my starting point is: if it's an "Official Story"...it's bullshit. And then I work from there.

luciferhorus

17-05-2009, 10:08 AM

Speaking of "bullshit detectors"...... my starting point is: if it's an "Official Story"...it's bullshit. And then I work from there.

"All propaganda is a lie even when its telling the truth."--G Orwell
"Liars when they speak the truth are not believed." --Aristotle

I think that there is a general disbelief of any propaganda which the Anglo-American state terrorists put out, and that it is entirely healthy to 'question everything,' but it simply does not follow that any 'official' position is unfactual; an effective propagandist of state terrorism may tell 99 truths before they tell you the first lie, which is usually a 'big lie.'

As previously stated, the evidence of Nazi genocide does include fabricated evidence and exaggerated or false testimony from Nazis extracted under torture at the end of WW2; an example of this would be the claim by the Russian prosecutors at Nuremberg, who accused the Nazis on trial of having ordered the infamous massacre of 15,000 Polish oficers at the Katyn forest. It is known to be a fact today that it was not the Nazis who executed these officers but the Russians themselves.

Further consider:

Many years after the war...British military intelligence sergeant Bernard Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former commandant (Hoess) to obtain his "confession."

Hoess himself privately explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not.

Although the source of Clark and Hoess's words are in dispute, as are the statistics of the death camps, consider also:

Hoess' memoirs, written _after_ sentence had been passed
(and while there was certainly no torture going on), provide much more
valuable insight. In them, he recounts episodes of gassing, gives his
rationale for the death figures he cites, whines about how stupid his
captors are, blames everyone but himself and his family, indulges in
antisemitic and anti-Polish stereotypes, and generally writes pretty much
what you'd expect a condemned Nazi leader of a death camp to write -- if
he weren't being tortured.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/ftp.py?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/on-torture

We understand today that confessions from Muslims of involvement in 9/11 which have been extracted under torture by the Anglo-American Christian state terrorists are simply worthless by virtue of the fact that they are the confessions of torture victims, some who have been tortured for years and are thus likely to sign anything which their captors put in front of them; however there is further a massive array of overwhelming evidence that 9/11 was an American black military operation which earned vast sums of money for the priesthood of Capital (google 911 'put options,' for example) who place bets on the rise and fall of share prices, and who had foreknowledge of the meticulously pre-planned event; whereas with the Nazi's genocides there does not exist an overwhleming array of evidence to show that such genocides were merely fictitious.

With regards to Nazi genocides, this is not quite the same scenario as 911; if Hoess and others were tortured to provide false statistics of Nazi genocides, it does not follow that such genocides did not occur, particularly since Hoess later admitted to them in his memoirs, which were 'not' confessions obtained under torture and are confirmed by the numerous post-war testimonies of other Nazis and victims of the Nazis.

Operation Paperclip and the Nurenberg Show trials.

It is clear that after WW2 many Nazis scientists were airlifted out of Europe to safe havens, but so also were many ideological Nazis who had no scientific value to America; these Nazis often ended up in Latin America on CIA payrolls and were the instigators of further revolutions of the far Right with the backing of their CIA paymasters; a good example of this would be the Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie who was a CIA employee, and was involved in the Boloivan cocaine coup, where as late as 1973 soldiers with Nazis armbands took over the government and went on a rampage of torture and murder.

The Nuerenberg trials were merely show trials much like show-trials of U.S. soldiers for torture in the CIA controlled wing of Abu Ghirab in Iraq where such solders, acting under orders, were made scapegoats for policies approved at high levels.

The actual financiers of the Nazis were never put on trial and their legacy remains today the dross of international Capital who are the financiers and masters of war of Wall St and the City of London. A war is not over until victory is won and the masters and financiers of war are fully eradicated.

Lux

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

novymir

17-05-2009, 02:16 PM

There was no "Holocaust"(tm). There was no "Nazi genocide".
Luciferhorus posts a fake-doctored photo as proof... one of countless frauds.
Luciferhorus posts a link to A.Suttons book about Wallstreet and Hitler, but fails to mention another one: WALL STREET AND THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION.
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/ArticleDisplay.php?Article=BolshevikRev

Luciferhorus is decieved, and spreads deception.
Luciferhorus twists the Truth. Luciferhorus spreads disinformation for "them". He/it is an agent of "them". An agent of Error.
He/it desires to use/exploit the raised consciousness here and to hijack it, to detour it from TRUTH, to use the energy to feed the Anti-TRUTH consciousness... That which profits and expands from fear, hate, suffering, ignorance, and conflict.

All your energy expended will be for nought, your vision will not materialize, in the end you will feel an overwhelming sorrow for what you have tried to manifest--
your magic is nothing, but a cheap trick to decieve others into giving their creative energy to you to use against the Creative Spirit within.
Because you deny/reject IT within yourself.

Your "communism" is a product of "them" as much as any other thought-control device, it's just another program of the Matrix.

novymir

17-05-2009, 04:06 PM

By the way, the "elite" and "illuminati" is not "Them". "They" are not of this realm. "They" use us, like we use other life-forms like cattle or bees. But, "they" do not harvest flesh or honey... they harvest our creative energy, the essence of our being, they seek to manifest a mass-harvest, when the time comes. To provide for the thought-of requirement to absorb our being within itself, and expand it's own being in the place of the True Being. "They" are separation from True Spirit, they are of erroroneous identity, which is why they are predatory and parasitical-- they reject/deny the Free Life Source, so must steal and intimidate and decieve to sustain themselves.

Their weapon is deception and projection. The TRUTH IS ALWAYS, move away from the lies, and you move closer to the Truth.
It wishes to see itself as "I" alone, at the expense of the Earth consciousness and all within it. Then it it repeats the process...
But it won't.
It is blind, ignorant. It cannot percieve that which is above it anymore than most can percieve "them",
but they will.

The cure to the ill will not come through destruction, though much destruction may come, the cure will come when True Identity is REALIZED.

I Am,,,,Creative Energy Being,,,I Am. Now Eternal.

torus

18-05-2009, 12:00 AM

One might be permitted to ask:

(a) whether there is any such thing as an "amethyst-blue crystal of hydrogen cyanide" (Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 160; Shirer, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, p. 970);

(b) whether hydrogen cyanide can be solidified at room temperature in an ordinary tin can (Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, p. 566, "The hydrogen cyanide, solidified into pellets, immediately passed into the gaseous state");

(c) whether hydrogen cyanide can be made to crystallize in a vacuum and become gaseous upon exposure to air ("I used Zyklon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid", Rudolf Hoess at Nuremberg, quoted in Shirer, p. 968); (1)

(d) whether potassium cyanide becomes immediately gaseous upon exposure to air '"The use of special chemicals, such as Zyklon B [potassium cyanide] ...... from a special opening in the ceiling, Zyklon B crystals were introduced, becoming immediately gaseous". Moshe Pearlmann, The Capture and Trial of Adolph Eichmann, pp. 375, 385) (Note: Is potassium cyanide a crystal?);

(e) whether any salt of cyanide in the absence of an acid could release lethal quantities of poisonous gas in 30 seconds ("He gave me a bottle containing about half a pint of salts. I think they were salts of cyanide... I introduced a certain quantity of salt through a tube... they breathed for about half a minute before they fell to the floor". Joseph Kramer at the Belsen Trial, quoted in Shirer, p. 981);

(f) whether humidity is an antidote to cyanide poisoning ("The subject, a girl aged 15, was saved by contact with the humidity of the cement floor", Reitlinger, p. 157;

(g) whether victims of cyanide poisoning retain consciousness ("We knew when the people were dead, because their screaming stopped". Rudolf Hoess, former Auschwitz commander, at Nuremberg, quoted in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, p. 968);
(1) This is medically impossible. The Merck Index of Dangerous Properties of Industrial Chemicals (p. 623) describes the symptoms of cyanide poisoning as "unconsciousness, convulsions and respiratory arrest". Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products (Gleason, p. 76) lists them as "unconsciousness followed promptly by violent convulsions". The Encyclopedia Britannica ("Prussic Acid", 1911) says, "The patient is quite unconscious". Legal Medicine and Toxicology (Peterson, Haines and Webster, 2nd Edition) remarks (Vol. 2, p. 678), "The patient falls to the ground insensible", and mentions a case history in which the victim was unconscious for six hours! The same standard reference work contains numerous case histories of accidental or suicidal cyanide poisoning.
P. 682: "... fell to the ground insensible... died quietly without any further struggle 15 or 20 minutes after taking the poison... he did not scream... fell to the ground completely insensible, he died in about 10 minutes";
p. 681: "... loss of consciousness... complete insensibility... signs of returning consciousness in two hours after admission...";
p. 679: ... "a healthy woman... died in 15 to 20 minutes. ... in another case a man took a similar dose and was insensible for four hours, but recovered";
p. 677: "In some cases the patient staggers a few steps, and then falls down and dies in five minutes or less without sound or convulsion".

Hoess could only ascertain death by entering the chamber and taking pulse or heartbeat. Cyanide is not practical for mass killing in concentrations less than that required to cause instant death ("Poison Gas Warfare", 1922 Supplement, Encyclopedia Britannica).
(2) The concentrations required to kill quickly are extremely high and must be exactly known - not guessed at by listening to unconscious people.

(h) whether anything can be a crystal, a pellet, a "gas crystal" (?) (Shirer, p. 971), a salt and a gas all at the same time, as well as two different chemicals at once ("this dangerous gas", etc, "these tins of gas". Rudolf Hoess in Poland six months later, according to the Communist ghost-written autobiography, Commandant at Auschwitz, p. 208);

(i) whether any solid of cyanide intended to kill fleas and lice would be an efficient instrument for purposes of mass murder, compared to the ethyl cyanide or cyanic acid used in the manufacture of fulminate of mercury (Leschke, Clinical Toxicology, p. 56) or the acrylonitrile used to make Buna nitrile (GBR) rubber ("Organically bound cyanides, i.e., acrylonitrile, are sometimes used as fumigant gases, especially for grains", Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, p. 74; "Also developed by the Germans (GBR) ... manufactured in large tonnage during the war... copolymerized with acrylonitrile... up to 40% acrylonitrile by volume". Colliers Encyclopedia, "Rubber", 1965);

Please note: the Monowitz Rubber Plant at Auschwitz was one of the largest in the world, established by I.G. Farben. Farben held the patient for Zyklon B, and was supposedly cooperating in the mass gassings. Krupp established a huge munitions plant at Auschwitz. Fulminate of mercury is a primary explosive related chemically to the cyanides (Encyclopedia Britannica, "Fulminic Acid"). Hydrocyanic acid is explosive (Sax, Dangerous Properties of Industrial Chemicals, p. 764);

(j) whether cyanide gas is heavier than air, since it was supposedly released from the ceiling, ("... looking up at the shower heads, from which no water came... realized the gas was coming out of the vents..." Shirer, p. 970).

(k) whether "powerful fans" are a smart way to get rid of cyanide gas in an industrial complex housing 200,000 people, etc.
(3) Needless to say, the answer to every one of these questions is "No". Zyklon B was a commercially manufactured fumigant intended for fleas and lice packed in a 200-gram tin can. Since 200 grams of pure hydrocyanic acid could kill at least 2,000 people, it was evidently highly diluted
(4). Hydrocyanic acid "in the pure state is said to kill with a lightning-like rapidity. It is met with in commerce only in a diluted state..." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, "Poisons"). "A stout, muscular man, aged 40, drank by mistake half an ounce of 1.48 percent solution of hydrocyanic acid... fell suddenly, completely insensible... he died... in about ten minutes" (Legal Medicine and Toxicology, Vol. 2, p. 682).

At the rate of 60-100 milligrams per person, the manufacture of 1,000 tons of nitrile rubber could require enough pure hydrocyanic acid for the preparation of acrylonitrile to "gas" the entire world!
(Note: In practice, as opposed to theory, "mass gassings" require huge amounts of poison, because the air acts as a dilutant and filter. The liquid must evaporate and fill the entire chamber to an extremely high concentration, which takes time. To kill 2000 people in 2 minutes would probably require a ton of pure cyanide).

(5) According to pre-Nuremberg technical literature, the active ingredient in Zyklon B was a liquid "absorbed in granular diatomite" (Encyclopedia Britannica, "Hydrocyanic Acid", 1943). A single inhalation of pure hydrocyanic acid (60 milligrams) produces near instantaneous unconsciousness followed by death in several minutes. Zyklon B (which the "Holocaust experts" claim was used to gas the Jews), in contrast, was so fantastically weak that to kill clothes moths with Zyklon required 16 grams per cubic meter over a 24-hour exposure. (Source: Document NI-9912, Office of the Chief Counsel for War Crimes, 1947, a translation of directions issued by the Health Institute of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in Prague, p. 6).
A Polish Communist, Pelagia Lewinska (Twenty Months at Auschwitz, p. 55), has remarked: "The gas [Zyklon] was too weak, did not always kill the lice and did no harm whatsoever against the nits".

According to post-Nuremberg Jewish "historians", Zyklon B was a commercial bug-bomb packed in a tin can which apparently no one ever opened, containing non-existent crystals, salts or pellets compressed to kill fleas, reacting in an impossible way and releasing fumes which went down instead of up, producing impossible symptoms, and that this dilute mixture was used in preference to tons of an extremely powerful poison which was readily available!

THE OVENS
The German edition of Shirer's Rise and Fall (p. 1025 in the Knaur paperback edition) contains a footnote which is apparently the result of a legal action brought against the German publishers by the manufacturer of the crematory ovens at Belgrade (the Didier-Werke). The note observes that the "dimensions are those which are standard for crematory ovens of a not-very-modern design intended for smaller cemeteries, and would be unsuitable for mass burnings".
Anyone who has ever tried to burn magazines in a trash can will immediately recognize that the technical problems involved in designing a crematory oven capable of burning several thousand corpses a day would be practically insurmountable. Such an oven would have to be equipped with giant mechanical arms to keep the bodies stirred up as well as an apparatus to keep the fuel and air evenly distributed.
Photographs of German ovens taken immediately after the war show 18-inch doors about two feet off the floor. Those at Buchenwald have even been photographed with the doors open, showing back and side walls, grid and grate, very clearly. The story according to Hilberg, Shirer and others is that the ovens proved "inefficient", and the bodies were finally burned in the open using wood and petroleum for fuel. The buildings were razed and the landscape altered by planting trees (!) thus conveniently destroying all real evidence.
(Source of "information": The Soviet Union at Nuremberg). Legal Medicine and Toxicology observes (Vol. 2, pp. 881-883) that it requires 40 hours to burn a human body using wood as fuel.
"A body of ordinary size is completely cremated when gas is used as a fuel in one hour; when petroleum is used, from one and a half to two hours are required. The ash which remains, which consists entirely of mineral substances, all organic compounds having been destroyed, weighs from five to nine pounds, depending on the size of the body".
This means 15,000 to 27,000 tons of ashes for six million people. Where is it? As usual, we are left with only the Communists to tell us how it all came to disappear.
The cremation of 16,000 bodies a day (according to Rudolf Hoess) using petroleum as fuel would require over 1,000 ovens. Where are they?
The larger camps have four or five; the smaller camps have one or two; and they are coal-fired. What kind of murder program is this?
When one considers that there are
no oversize ovens;
no "gas chambers" which have not repeatedly been proven to be merely shower baths, which is what they were supposed to have been in the first place ("See those shower heads? This is a gas chamber. Two dollars, please".);
no significant quantity of ashes or skeletons;
no documents which are not Zionist or Communist forgeries;
that the chemical reactions, symptoms and crematory processes described are impossible;
and that Jews have never cooperated with a census at any time in history (see I Chronicles: 21 and II Samuel: 24),

one is tempted to ask: if millions of them really disappeared during the war, how would we know it? By believing what we see on TV? Surely not.

The slaughter of 1.5 million Cambodians by the Communists was given an average of 20-seconds evening network-news coverage per month. By contrast an imaginary atrocity involving Jews 40 years ago gets nine and one-half hours in one week! Is this lack of proportion coincidental?

Notes:
(1) The "confession" referred to in (c) and (g) was written entirely in English by Lt. Col. Smith W. Brookhart Jr. (reportedly still living at 18 Hillside Drive, Denver, Colorado USA 80215). There is no proof that Hoess understood English. The translation into German dated 3 days later was never signed. Brookhart was the son of a Senator from Washington, Iowa. A person who knows the family well is Rev. George McDaniel of St. Ambrose University, 518 Locust St., Davenport, Iowa.
(2) What the article actually says is: "A gas is classed as immediately fatal when death follows exposure for a period of two minutes to a certain concentration (i.e., a certain proportion of the air breathed). A higher concentration may cause instantaneous death. The only known compounds which, in concentrations practically obtainable, produce immediate death are those containing cyanogen. The chief disadvantage of these compounds is that when the concentration is not sufficient to cause death, they have no effect at all... the specific lethal gases will only produce their effect in very high concentrations, which means that a large number of shells must be used simultaneously over a certain area..."
(3) These fans never existed. See the Leuchter Report.
(4) This is an error. See the Leuchter Report.
(5) American prisons have been known use up to 2 pounds of cyanide salt in acid to generate the gas required to kill one convict in a very small chamber in much longer than 2 minutes. The convict is unconscious in 40 seconds, but may take 15 minutes to die. See "Until You Are Dead: Executions in America" by Frederick Drimmer, pp. 57-59. See also page 12, column 1 of the Leuchter Report, Focal Point edition. This essay was written in 1978 and revised in 1985. It has been rendered obsolete by the Leuchter Report published in 1988.

I continue to make the essay available despite its shortcomings because it was only the impossibility of the chemical reactions which first convinced me that the Holocaust was a lie.

See also R.J. Copeland on the Chemistry of the Hoaxoco$t (with Comment by Germar Rudolf) under "Letters"

torus

18-05-2009, 12:08 AM

According to my paperback edition of Five Chimneys, First Academy Chicago Edition 1995, the following words appear on page 81:

"After June, 1943, the gas chamber was reserved exclusively for Jews and Gypsies.."

The following words appear on page 82:

"Three hundred and sixty corpses every half-hour, which was all the time it took to reduce human flesh to ashes, made 720 per hour, or 17,280 corpses per twenty-four hour shift. And the ovens, with murderous efficiency, functioned day and night. However, one must also reckon the death pits, which could destroy another 8,000 cadavers a day. In round numbers, about 24,000 corpses were handled each day. An admirable production record, one that speaks well for German industry." appear on page 82.

Just after the Table of Contents, a page appears with the following:

Quote:
From a letter to Olga Lengyel
from Albert Einstein

"...Thank you for your very frank, very well written book. You have done a real service by letting the ones who are now silent and most forgotten speak...
With best regards and wishes,
A.Einstein."

The New Yorker called the book a "surprisingly dispassionate account of life in the Nazi murder camps at Auschwitz and Birkenau . . . ."

One HAS to wonder what they secretly thought of Einstein.

tothestars

18-05-2009, 06:49 PM

novymir

19-05-2009, 12:37 AM

Some very good points there. I wish everyone would read and understand it.

Thanks friend. Maintain faith, the problem is being corrected.
I am proof of it. They targeted me very young, but they never killed my Spirit.
The Spirit of Truth-Love-Forgiveness-Life.

luciferhorus

16-06-2009, 05:38 AM

There was no "Holocaust"(tm). There was no "Nazi genocide".
Luciferhorus posts a fake-doctored photo as proof... one of countless frauds.
.....
Luciferhorus is decieved, and spreads deception.
Luciferhorus twists the Truth. Luciferhorus spreads disinformation for "them". He/it is an agent of "them". An agent of Error.
He/it desires to use/exploit the raised consciousness here and to hijack it, to detour it from TRUTH, to use the energy to feed the Anti-TRUTH consciousness... ......

I see that on the Summa Dialectica thread on http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68697 that you describe yourself as:

I Am my own Savior. I'm not afraid of "death", and I'm not so in love with this physical existence here and now that I would reject the True Spirit of the CREATOR to play this stupid game.
I Am,,, Creative Energy Being,,, I Am, Eternal. One, of THE ONE, with THE ONE.
The Spirit of LOVE-FORGIVENESS-LIFE, is my guide and Source.
Your program conflicts with IT, therefore it is ERROR.
pretty simple ,huh? Too simple, hmmm?

Might I suggest that this 'Creator' whom you represent and who lives inside you is the same Creator that the one whom Hitler referred to when he stated:“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator”

LL

Lux

http://romaniroots.webs.com/holocaust.jpg

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/30/holocaust.jpg

http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/Holidays/images/a6b.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l159/fotomalaysia/Artikel/holocaust-nazi.jpg

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/holocaust.jpg

http://trendsupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/holocaust.jpg

novymir

16-06-2009, 07:16 PM

I see that on the Summa Dialectica thread on http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68697 that you describe yourself as:

Might I suggest that this 'Creator' whom you represent and who lives inside you is the same Creator that the one whom Hitler referred to when he stated:“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator”

LL

Lux

More projection, and deception. Of Course. And exploitation of victims for your own sick agenda.

You solution is sold as the True FINAL SOLUTION.

It makes "The Hoax of the 20th Century" look like a picnic.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/

You really must think there are alot of idiots on the D.I. forum.

BTW, I'm finished with you, I've had my say, it's floating in the consciousness now.
You have helped to further validate that I am on the correct path, and that the Spirit within will not lead me astray,
Thank you.

newspresenter

16-06-2009, 09:38 PM

I'd love to see gas chambers that the nasty nazis apparently used to kill people. Can't be arsed to read what the 2 lefties allowed on their wikipedia website.

luciferhorus

10-07-2009, 01:58 AM

More projection, and deception. Of Course. And exploitation of victims for your own sick agenda.

You solution is sold as the True FINAL SOLUTION.

It makes "The Hoax of the 20th Century" look like a picnic.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/.

So true; the Final Apocalyptic War, Holocaust and global anti-Capitalist revolution will make the Nazi Holocaust appear as if a comparatively insignificant detail of history.

Currently the billion people with no food, the 200 million on the verge of starvation and the millions who die each year due to the effects of poverty have already placed the victims of the Holocaust in a category of a 'minority' of victims.

You really must think there are alot of idiots on the D.I. forum.

Absolutely, it is full of Christians, Muslims, Neo-Nazis, Holocaust revisionists and so forth, but there are also a great many intelligent and educated opponents of the Capitalist elites here.

I have a love / hate relationship with this forum.

LL

Lux

ladybird

20-10-2010, 10:26 PM

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/30/holocaust.jpg

This picture has been proven to be a FAKE long time ago.
The soldier is in fact protecting the woman with the child and other people.
You are spreading lies and hate propaganda.

http://de.metapedia.org/w/images/3/33/F%C3%A4lschung_Bild_2.jpg

http://de.metapedia.org/w/images/8/82/Bildf%C3%A4lschung_Spiegel_aus_JF_5.2.2010.jpg

Shame on you!

.

white rabbit

21-10-2010, 03:46 AM

The evidence for the Holocaust can be summed up in the following way:

1: Written documents—hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.

2: Eyewitness testimony—accounts from survivors, Jewish Sonderkommandos (who were forced to help load bodies from the gas chambers into the crematoria in exchange for the promise of survival), SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even high-ranking Nazis who spoke openly about the mass murder of the Jews

3: Photographs—including official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, unofficial photographs taken by the German military.

4: The camps themselves—concentration camps, work camps, and extermination camps that still exist in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction

5: Inferential evidence—population demographics, reconstructed from the pre-World War II era; if six million Jews were not killed, what happened to them all?

nop

you can try to find somethin in

Churchill's Second World War
Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe
Gaulle's three-volume Memoires de guerre

if you want or simply check what Professor Van Pelt says about "holocaust"

the holocaust in ww2 was the death of more or less 50 millions people not that lie of 6 millions jews killed in gas chambers that MSM pushes with fake images like most images in your sources , there are other real "holocaust" victims from coumunism from lenin and mao who are much more millions if combined

and of course we have an holocaust happening in palestina

if you want more information I recomend you check the topic "Holocaust a hoax?", if you ignore all the garbage posts you can find very interesting evidence about the topic that discredit the lies of the MSM

luciferhorus

21-10-2010, 11:03 AM

Just to restate from the OP (original Post).

Even one of the most famous Holocaust Revisionists, the historican David Irving who was prosectuted in Austria for denying the holocaust has this to say:

After he was arrested, Irving claimed in his plea that he changed his opinions on the Holocaust, "I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."

If a prosecutor in a genocide / war crimes trial produces 100 pieces of evidence in court, and it turns out that 10 of those pieces of evidence have been fabricated, it does not automatically make the remaining 90 pieces of evidence invalid. It does however mean that all evidence should be "suspect" and throroughly investigated.

Similarly with the Holocaust; there is so much evidence of mass executions and internment for slave labour by the Nazis that it would be unsurprising if "some" of this evidence had been fabricated for propaganda purposes.

Similarly if someone produces fabricated evidence about some aspect of World War One, it would not automatically mean that World War One did not occur.

Clearly however, the whole "US are the good guys and the Nazis were the bad guys" position which has been promoted in numerous US Hollywood propaganda films is simply propganda; the Americans were primarily responsible for financing the Nazis. World War Two was essentially a war between Russia and Germany and they were "both" the losers in the sense that their nations were destroyed and around 25 million and 9 million respectively of their populations were killed. World War Two was just another war situation manipulated by the Capitalist elites, just like the current imperialistic wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lux

"Immense sums belonging to our national-bank depositors have been given to Germany on no collateral security whatever. The Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve banks have issued United States currency on mere finance drafts drawn by Germans. Billions upon billions of our money has been pumped into Germany and money is still being pumped into Germany by the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve banks. Her worthless paper is still being negotiated here and renewed here on the public credit of the United States Government and at the expense of the American people. On April 27, 1932, the Federal Reserve outfit sent $750,000, belonging to American bank depositors, in gold to Germany. A week later, another $300,000 in gold was shipped to Germany in the same way. About the middle of May $12,000,000 in gold was shipped to Germany by the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve banks. Almost every week there is a shipment of gold to Germany. These shipments are not made for profit on the exchange since the German marks are below parity with the dollar. " Louis T. McFadden's Speech in the House of Representatives, 10 June 1932

http://www.afn.org/~govern/mcfadden_speech_1932.html

ladybird

21-10-2010, 11:17 AM

ladybird

21-10-2010, 11:42 AM

World War Two was essentially a war between Russia and Germany

No. This is wrong.
And WWII did not yet end.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059318294#post1059318294

There is much more to it than meets the eye at first sight.

.

luciferhorus

21-10-2010, 12:04 PM

Your vicious, fabricated antigermanic hate propaganda has yet partially been exposed as
malignant lies
and you prefer to ignore it and switch the topic.

With regards to the photo in question, I had no idea that it had been proven to be a fake; however this does highlight the point I was making; if there are numerous photographs and evidence of mass executions and one of these pieces of evidence is shown to be a fake, it does not negate all the other evidence.

Holocaust Revisionism is an important historical process and "historical revisionism" is a process which all historians should be engaged in, of re-assessing the evidence of the past; similarly with "Holocaust Revisionism," however any person who challenges any aspect of the "official" version of the Holocaust is technically an historical revisionist; this is not quite the same as "Holocaust Denial" since the Denialists are not really historians; they are conspiracy theorists who jump on a few pieces of questionable evidence and then leap to the conclusion that "all" evidence of the holocaust has been fabricated.

Stalin killed 10.000.000 of Russians in the HOLODOMOR and you just prefer to sweep it under
the carpet. Was he a capitalist?

Stalin was certainly a military ally of the International Capitalists, however with regards to Stalin's genocides, you will have to take the matter up with the Stalinists, however it seems to me that 99% or more of modern Socialists, Anarchists, Marxists and the various brands of Communism are entirely anti-Stalinist and consider him to have betrayed the revolution.

Similarly just because you are an ideological Capitalist and anti-Communist, it does not automatically follow that you support the genocide and enslavement of the population currently occurring in Sudan, just because it has a Capitalist government.

Where is the gold of Fort Knox?
Where is the gold of the Reichsbank?

"At the end of 2009, it was estimated that all the gold ever mined totaled 165,000 tonnes. This can be represented by a cube with an edge length of about 20.28 meters. The value of this is very limited; at $1200 per ounce, 165,000 tons of gold would have a value of only 6.6 trillion dollars."
Gold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The currencies of the Central Banks of Europe and America are "fiat" currencies; they are not linked to "gold." Only a very limited amount of gold has ever been mined; it is an extremely rate commodity and most of the gold ever mined has been used in Jewellry manufacture and the various forms of production of luxury objects. Even today 25% of all the gold mined is sold to India for the production of jewellry. This current obsession with gold and the price of gold is merely based on the price which jewellry manufacturers pay for gold; every single contract for the purchase of gold on the world's commodity markets is merely for the purchase of a piece of paper linked to the price of gold, thus even purchasing gold on the commodity exchanges is simply the purchase of a fiat currency.

Further the "gold" which is stored by bankers and never actually used for any other purpose than keeping it as an asset is entirely unlikley to be totally genuine, and some gold bars have been shown to be nothing more than gold plated tungsten, since tungsten is about the same weight of gold.

http://www.viewzone2.com/fakegold.top.jpg
More on: http://viewzone2.com/fakegoldx.html

The mind of an ideological Capitalist attaches great value to gold, but it is just a Capitalist commodity known for it's rarity; the most precious commodities have always been the commodities necessary for survival, specifically food, shelter, security, etc., which have much more value to most of the 6 billion people here than a piece of shiny metal or a piece of paper supposedly linked to the value of that metal.

"the dark LORD gave, and the dark LORD hath taken away"

It is "offenkundig" (evident) which side you are on, luciferhorus.
Nomen est omen.

When examining historical evidence, it is not necessary to chose sides "ideologically" or "politically;" however this is essentially what the Holocaust deniers do; they collect pieces of fabricated evidence and make their conclusions based on that alone. It is one matter entirely to challenge the "official" version of events and to challenge testimonials of Nazis which were extracted under torture by the US or British military, and it is quite another to make the case that there were no mass executions under the Nazis.

No. This is wrong.
And WWII did not yet end.

.

In "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism" Lenin correctly predicted the demise of the European aristocracy and the landed classes and the rise of the banker "Capitalists" whose entire enterprise was based on the issuance of Capital, the export of Capital and of debt slavery; this is exactly what has occurred in the 20th century.

Wars are usually always fought for economic reasons. In the 20th century we see the expansion of armed, violent World Capitalist Revolution, the holocaust of all militant enemies and the attempt to enslave the human population under the International Dictatorship of Capitalism; wars and Capitalist revolutions have been conducted relentlessly for this purpose and their Capitalist crusade is still ongoing in the attempt to enslave all nations under the debt slavery of the Capitalist elites.

On is either for or against this Capitalist revolution, and unfortunately most of the conspiracy theorists on the Internet, although they claim to oppose the current NWO (The International Dictatorship of Capitalism), when examined usually tend to turn out to be ideological Capitalists and anti-Communists themselves. Given the massive resources of the military allies and the military intelligence of the International Dictatorship of Capitalism, it would not surprise me if they have a role in the manufacturing of this "false opposition" of their ideological and anti-Communist allies.

Lux

ladybird

21-10-2010, 12:27 PM

With regards to the photo in question, I had no idea that it had been proven to be a fake; however this does highlight the point I was making; if there are numerous photographs and evidence of mass executions and one of these pieces of evidence is shown to be a fake, it does not negate all the other evidence.

By implication it does not prove that most evidence presented by the "victors" is authentic and non-faked
if there is authentic evidence of killings during the war.

Holocuast Revisionism is an important historical process and "historical revisionism" is a process which all historians should be engaged in, of re-assessing the evidence of the past; similarly with "Holocaust Revisionism," however any person who challenges any aspect of the "official" version of the Holocaust is technically an historical revisionist; this is not quite the same as "Holocaust Denial" since the Denialists are not really historians; they are conspiracy theorists who jump on a few pieces of questionable evidence and then leap to the conclusion that "all" evidence of the holocaust has been fabricated.

I have to refrain from going into details on this topic because I am subjected to Holocaust Denial Laws
which do not differentiate between "revisionists" and "deniers". Both of them are thought criminals.

Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Further the "gold" which is stored by bankers and never actually used for any other purpose than keeping it as an asset is entirely unlikley to be totally genuine, and some gold bars have been shown to be nothing more than gold plated tungsten, since tungsten is about the same weight of gold.

[url]http://www.viewzone2.com/fakegold.top.jpg[/IMG]
More on: http://viewzone2.com/fakegoldx.html

That is common knowledge by now.
So where is it?

The mind of an ideological Capitalist attaches great value to gold, but it is just a Capitalist commodity known for it's rarity; the most precious commodities have always been the commodities necessary for survival, specifically food, shelter, security, etc., which have much more value to most of the 6 billion people here than a piece of shiny metal or a piece of paper supposedly linked to the value of that metal.

Exactly!
But how will you get food, shelter, security ... in an induced, forced upon system that is controlled
by those who crave for nothing but ever increasing power and wealth?

Did it ever come to your mind that WWI and WWII were only incited to install this system and that the so-called WWIII (you know that WWII did not yet end)
will only be incited to replace this system by an even more suppressive one?

Where is the gold of Fort Knox?
Where is the gold of the Reichsbank?

"the dark LORD gave, and the dark LORD hath taken away"

It is "offenkundig" (evident) which side you are on, luciferhorus.
Nomen est omen.

When examining historical evidence, it is not necessary to chose sides "ideologically" or "politically;" however this is essentially what the Holocaust deniers do; they collect pieces of fabricated evidence and make their conclusions based on that alone. It is one matter entirely to challenge the "official" version of events and to challenge testimonials of Nazis which were extracted under torture by the US or British military, and it is quite another to make the case that there were no mass executions under the Nazis.

Lux

I was talking about

good - bad
truth - lie
love - hate ...

and not about "ideologies" and "politics"
for I am not interested in those tools of the "elite" to DIVIDE ET IMPERA.

---

Have to go now and will revert to your edited/added comments later.

.

luciferhorus

21-10-2010, 01:06 PM

By implication it does not prove that most evidence presented by the "victors" is authentic and non-faked
if there is authentic evidence of killings during the war.

I refer you to the OP (original post) here; there is overwhelming evidence, testimonials and even admissions by the Nazis themsleves that they carried out mass executions and mass internments for slave labour.

I have to refrain from going into details on this topic because I am subjected to Holocaust Denial Laws
which do not differentiate between "revisionists" and "deniers". Both of them are thought criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Yes I agree that such laws are simply ridiculous, but my agreement is as an historican (a student of history), not as a Holocaust Denier. It is as if it were made a crime in the US to question the government's "official" version of 911 or to question any form of US state terrorist / narco-terrorist propaganda.

As I have previously stated "historical revisionism" is a progressive process of questioning alleged historical facts and evidence and revising our analysis of the past; it is part of "historical methodology" and even "epistemology (which asks the question of what knowledge we can say we are objectively certain of);" clearly to make the claim that something must be true, just because the official government position is that it is true, is both historically and epistemologically fraudulent, and it simply stifles the process of historical research. As indicated in the hyperlinked article above, numerous historians and academics who are not in any way whatsoever "Holocaust Deniers" such as Christopher Hitchens and Noam Chomsky also openly oppose such Laws which restrict freedom of speech when it comes to discussing the facts of the Holocaust.

That is common knowledge by now.
So where is it?

Well as stated prior, most of the gold ever mined in history has been and is used in jewellry manufacture, the manufacture of luxury goods and in various industrial processes. The idea that the various Central Banks' right to issue credit is based upon the bars of gold plated tungsten in their depositaries is simply incorrect; our currencies are pure "fiat" currencies; that is to say "money without intrinsic value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money);" clearly an ounce of gold has a value in the Capitalist market place, but a $100 bill has no value in itself, it is just a piece of paper; it is merely that it is accepted as a token of exchange. Every day the world central bankers issue as debt (loaned at interest) billions of dollars of new currency which never existed before; this has absolutely nothing to do with the mining of billions of dollars of new gold (or tungsten) or indeed any tangible "thing." Thus they saying that "banking is a lisence to print money," especially when it concerned the elite banks such as the central banks of Capitalism.

Exactly!
But how will you get food, shelter, security ... in an induced, forced upon system that is controlled
by those who crave for nothing but ever increasing power and wealth?

Well since you are an ideological Capitalist and anti-Communist, it would seem to me that such a situation describes the current Capitalist dictatorship; perhaps you might explain what your counterproposal to the current dictatorship of Capitalism is?

The system has to come down and it will do so very soon. Then the latter will have to learn
that they cannot eat their gold.

Well the system which has to "come down" eventually is the Capitalist system, but surely that would not be part of your agenda, since a non-Capitalist system would ultimately in the modern world, I suspect lead to Communism / collectivism.

I was talking about

good - bad
truth - lie
love - hate ...

and not about "ideologies" and "politics"
for I am not interested in those tools of the "elite" to DIVIDE ET IMPERA.

In other words, you have no political ideology. You are "against" the current system but you have no economic counterproposal or solution to it. I suppose that is a common form of Anarchism (Aganist the Archons; Against authority, government) expressed by many of the anti-NWO crowd however it is a rather "negative" form of Anarchism, in that they wish to tear down the current establishment, but they have no economic and political counterproposal in place to replace it; it is rather like the youth who enjoys to destroy property but never creates anything in it's place; that really has nothing to do with Anarchism as a political ideology.

Lux

ladybird

21-10-2010, 10:44 PM

Yes I agree that such laws are simply ridiculous, but my agreement is as an historican (a student of history), not as a Holocaust Denier. It is as if it were made a crime in the US to question the government's "official" version of 911 or to question any form of US state terrorist / narco-terrorist propaganda.

I am quite convinced that the next step - after the Holocaust Denial Laws will be established all over Europe - will be WTC Denial Laws.

Many lawyers are getting increasingly suspicious and aware of the "bending" of human rights.
That is the positive aspect about the impending aggravation of the de jure increasingly tightening situation.
Alas, only few dare to speak up yet because those who did before ended up in prison.

As I have previously stated "historical revisionism" is a progressive process of questioning alleged historical facts and evidence and revising our analysis of the past; it is part of "historical methodology" and even "epistemology (which asks the question of what knowledge we can say we are objectively certain of);" clearly to make the claim that something must be true, just because the official government position is that it is true, is both historically and epistemologically fraudulent, and it simply stifles the process of historical research. As indicated in the hyperlinked article above, numerous historians and academics who are not in any way whatsoever "Holocaust Deniers" such as Christopher Hitchens and Noam Chomsky also openly oppose such Laws which restrict freedom of speech when it comes to discussing the facts of the Holocaust.

As I have previously stated, any kind of "revisionism" is thought crime in many European countries
according to the singular Holocaust Denial Laws.

Well as stated prior, most of the gold ever mined in history has been and is used in jewellry manufacture, the manufacture of luxury goods and in various industrial processes. The idea that the various Central Banks' right to issue credit is based upon the bars of gold plated tungsten in their depositaries is simply incorrect; our currencies are pure "fiat" currencies; that is to say "money without intrinsic value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money);" clearly an ounce of gold has a value in the Capitalist market place, but a $100 bill has no value in itself, it is just a piece of paper; it is merely that it is accepted as a token of exchange. Every day the world central bankers issue as debt (loaned at interest) billions of dollars of new currency which never existed before; this has absolutely nothing to do with the mining of billions of dollars of new gold (or tungsten) or indeed any tangible "thing." Thus they saying that "banking is a lisence to print money," especially when it concerned the elite banks such as the central banks of Capitalism.

I agree with everything, except the boldfaced parts, which sound ridiculous and naive, IMHO.

Well since you are an ideological Capitalist and anti-Communist, it would seem to me that such a situation describes the current Capitalist dictatorship; perhaps you might explain what your counterproposal to the current dictatorship of Capitalism is?

How come that you pigeonhole without knowing me?
From my point of view "Capitalism" ist just another catchphrase created by the self-chosen "elite"
to CONQUER AND DIVIDE. I am not interested, as stated before, in becoming involved with any of their tools.

Well the system which has to "come down" eventually is the Capitalist system, but surely that would not be part of your agenda, since a non-Capitalist system would ultimately in the modern world, I suspect lead to Communism / collectivism.

This is a description of your weltanschauung.
Refer to my recent comment on "Capitalism" for -> "Communism/Collectivism". Same deception.

In other words, you have no political ideology. You are "against" the current system but you have no economic counterproposal or solution to it. I suppose that is a common form of Anarchism (Aganist the Archons; Against authority, government) expressed by many of the anti-NWO crowd however it is a rather "negative" form of Anarchism, in that they wish to tear down the current establishment, but they have no economic and political counterproposal in place to replace it; it is rather like the youth who enjoys to destroy property but never creates anything in it's place; that really has nothing to do with Anarchism as a political ideology.

Lux

Once again ad hominem pigeonholing while lacking evidence and knowledge.
Refer to my statement on "Capitalism" for -> "Anarchism".

Please understand that I no longer tolerate being buttonholed when it comes to the most obvious DIVIDE ET IMPERA tools
of the current rulers.
I rather start digging for oil in my front yard :rolleyes:

.

rodin

22-10-2010, 08:46 AM

"All propaganda is a lie even when its telling the truth."--G Orwell
"Liars when they speak the truth are not believed." --Aristotle

Some stories are true that never happened - Elie Weisel

The 5 planks of evidence cited in the OP have all been shown to be bullshit

1) Pop stats never showed 6 mil negative til they were fiddled

2+3) Witness testimony is very weak and the German officers had their testicles crushed and warned families would suffer if they did not confess

3) Jewish holocaust stories fall apart under scrutiny - many are simply ludicrous and it has to be said MALEVOLENT inventions

4) Forensic evidence proves the camps were not mass extermination centres

5) Photographs were faked and/or used out of context

We see here an avowed Satanist coming down on the side of the Holocaust.

luciferhorus

25-10-2010, 06:13 AM

On Holocaust Denial.

Lucifer 2010

http://www.holocaustinfo.net/images/massegrav.jpg

Some stories are true that never happened - Elie Weisel

The 5 planks of evidence cited in the OP have all been shown to be bullshit

1) Pop stats never showed 6 mil negative til they were fiddled

2+3) Witness testimony is very weak and the German officers had their testicles crushed and warned families would suffer if they did not confess

3) Jewish holocaust stories fall apart under scrutiny - many are simply ludicrous and it has to be said MALEVOLENT inventions

4) Forensic evidence proves the camps were not mass extermination centres

5) Photographs were faked and/or used out of context

We see here an avowed Satanist coming down on the side of the Holocaust.

Since such claims keep being alleged, refuted, alleged again, refuted again, etc., etc., I though it would be more appropriate to make a new thread ("Holocaust Denial") with responses to these claims.

Historical Revisionism and the "Holocaust Denial" laws

http://www.holocaustinfo.net/images/engelskmann.jpg

"Historical Revisionism" is the process of researching and analysing historical events and revising established views of such events. In the traditional method of teaching history in the past, children were often forced to memorise established times, dates and events, the established view of the history of kings, monarchs and religions, and impress examiners by repeating such perspectives almost verbatim; this made "history" a rather boring subject for many students.

For the example the view that the American Capitalists were the good guys of WW2 and that the Nazis were the bad guys is simply political propaganda and is rather refuted by the fact that the Americans financed the Nazis in the first place. Similarly the 9/11 & 7/7 truth movement is a "historical revisionist" movement which challenges Anglo-American state terrorist / narco-terrorist propaganda and reassesses the evidence, accusing the world's leading terrorists (the British and American military) of such actions.

Even Ken McVay of the Nikzor Project (http://www.nizkor.org/), Noam Chomsky, Christopher Hitchens and many other academics and historians have voiced opposition to the "Holocaust Denial" laws, despite being opponents of "Holocaust Denial," since such laws clearly constitute a denial of free speech and academic freedoms; in nations where such laws are in force, historians, academics and professors cannot even question the establishment version of events without risking prosecution.

Historical Methodology.

http://www.holocaustinfo.net/images/germans_beat_a_jew_in_the_street.jpg

The historian is very much like a juror in a court who assesses the evidence of numerous expert witnesses. For example in a court case where a person was poisoned with hydrogen cyanide (Zyklon B is "the trademarked name for a substance, usually wood chips" which were impregnated hydrogen cyanide (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar27.html)) the juror may not be a chemist who fully understands the nature and effect of hydrogen cyanide, but he will have to listen to the expert witnesses for the prosecution and the defence who "are" expert witnesses. The purpose of the juror is not to "take sides" ideologically but to come to an impartial and objective decision based upon the evidence.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/Zirkle.jpg

Similarly with the evidence of Nazi executions. It seems to me that the Holocaust Denialists are, in general, really not historians at all; they are simply ideologically motivated conspiracy theorists. It is one matter entirely to point to the various flaws in some of the established evidence and it is another matter to reach the conclusion that the Nazis were innocent of mass executions. Similarly in a court case against a person accused of mass executions, a prosecutor may present an abundance of evidence and testimonials, all of which the defence has to refute; it is simply not sufficient to refute "some" aspects of the prosecutors' evidence.

The Central Fallacious (False) Argument of Holocaust Denialists.

An example of a fallacious argument

1: "Some" testimonials and "confessions" which have been cited as evidence of mass executions by the Nazis were extracted under torture by the British and Americans after the defeat of the Nazis.

2: Therefore "all" testimonials and evidence of mass executions by the Nazis must be false.

It is certainly the case that when the vast amount of "evidence," including testimonial evidence of Nazi mass executions is considered, that doubts must be cast over "some" of the evidence presented; this is entirely unsurprising considering the vast array of evidence and considering the nature of US military propaganda.

Probably most of us who are familiar with the evidence of the 9/11 & 7/7 state terrorist attacks, NATO's covert terrorist organisation, Operation Gladio, and the long history of Anglo-American state terrorism / narco-terrorism, covert military operations, military coups, assassinations and deception in general are fully aware that Anglo-American state terrorist propaganda cannot be trusted, and that they have a tendency to fabricate evidence. However it is quite another matter to claim that the entirety of the evidence of Nazi mass executions is simply false.

Obviously evidence of mass executions by the Nazis would be a golden opportunity for US state terrorist propagandists to demonise the Nazi regime whom they financed and assisted in their rise to power and to portray themselves as the "good guys," however it certainly does not mean that such mass executions did not occur.

If a Neo-Nazi or an Anglo-American state terrorist / narco-terrorist propagandist claims that 1 + 1 = 2 or that the earth orbits the sun, it does not necessarily follow that simply because these persons are ideologically motivated propagandists with a genocidal history that all claims made by them must be untrue, though certainly it would be wise to treat their analysis of history with scepticism and critical thinking.

The Institute for Historical Review's 66 Questions And Answers About the Holocaust," and the Nizkor Project's response.

The 5 planks of evidence cited in the OP have all been shown to be bullshit

Since these 5 planks are only "part" of the Holocaust debate, I would refer readers to the "66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust."

The document is simply to large to post here and can be read on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/

To summarise the nature of the document:

"66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust
Nizkor's response to the Institute for Historical Review & Ernst Zündel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pamphlet
The Institute for Historical Review, or IHR, publishes many small pamphlets designed to misinform people about the Holocaust. One of the most-persistent has been a pamphlet called "66 Questions And Answers About the Holocaust," or simply "66 Q&A."

This pamphlet neatly summarizes many of the most common arguments used by Holocaust-deniers. Refuting these 66 claims strikes directly at the core of Holocaust-denial.

Readers of the Usenet newsgroup revisionism will notice claims and arguments below which may seem familiar. This is because this material, and its derivatives, have been presented and discussed on Usenet many times before. These web pages contain more in-depth replies than previous postings, however, and the links to other information put the technology of the web to good use.

The pamphlet itself has been put up on the world-wide web by at least two separate Holocaust-deniers: Greg Raven, head of the IHR, and Ernst Zündel, described by Canada's Security Intelligence Review Committee as "a Holocaust denier and prolific publisher of hate literature," and the sponsor and promoter of a "1991 neo-Nazi conference in Germany." Both the IHR's and Zündel's publishing houses distribute the Q&A in print form.

What follows is a point-by-point refutation of its half-truths and untruths. The full text of the original pamphlet is included, with the IHR's questions and answers reproduced unaltered, but if you would like to see their material for yourself, you may examine Greg Raven's copy on the IHR web site, or Ernst Zündel's copy on his web site. "http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/pamphlet.html

Rather than just repeating the same arguments over and over, I think it probably better just to quote the Nizkor response, since it is the product of years of research and debating on revisionism.

Six Million (estimated) Jewish VIctims of the Holocaust

1) Pop stats never showed 6 mil negative til they were fiddled

I refer to the Nizkor response to this:

What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews?

The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined):

None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual "survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and no "survivor" claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics.

Nizkor replies:

Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof.

This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this.

Let's look at their claims one at a time:

Supposedly the only evidence, "the postwar testimony of individual survivors."
First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.

This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.

The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)

In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?

As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.

Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark.)

Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?

Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.

The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims -- in fifty years, not one -- has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.

On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck, Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?

Holocaust-deniers point to small discrepancies in testimonies to try to discredit them. The assumption, unstated, is that the reader will accept minor discrepancies as evidence of a vast, over-reaching Jewish conspiracy. This is clearly ludicrous.

In fact, the discrepancies and minor errors in detail argue against, not for, the conspiracy theory. Why would the conspirators have given different information to different Nazis? In fact, if all the testimonies, from the Nazis' to the inmates', sounded too similar, it is certain that the Holocaust-deniers would cite that as evidence of a conspiracy.

What supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch to give an interview, against the will of his family, on Swedish television? In the 1981 interview, he talked about Auschwitz:

Interviewer: Isn't the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor's ethical values?

Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn't confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp's doctors were overloaded and couldn't cope with it.

Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that "special treatment" could mean anything. It didn't have to be extermination.

Münch: "Special treatment" in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.

Interviewer: "Special treatment" was gassing?

Münch: Yes, absolutely.

And what supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel into giving an interview for the film Shoah? Speaking under (false) promises of anonymity, he told of the crimes committed at the Treblinka death camp (from the book Shoah, Claude Lanzmann, 1985, p. 54):

Interviewer: You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.

Suchomel: But don't use my name.

Interviewer: No, I promised. All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.

Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women.

Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!

Ask the deniers why they shrug off the testimony of Franz Suchomel. Greg Raven will tell you that "it is not evidence...bring me some evidence, please." Others will tell you that Suchomel and Münch were crazy, or hallucinating, or fantasizing.

But the fantasy is obviously in the minds of those who choose to ignore the mass of evidence and believe instead in a hypothetical conspiracy, supported by nothing but their imaginations.

That total lack of evidence is why the "conspiracy assumption" almost always remains an unspoken assumption. To our knowledge, there has not been one single solitary "revisionist" paper, article, speech, pamphlet, book, audiotape, videotape, or newsletter which provides any details about this supposed Jewish/Zionist conspiracy which did all the dirty work. Not one.

At best, the denial literature makes veiled references to the World Jewish Congress perpetuating a "hoax" (in Butz, 1976) -- no details are provided. Yet the entire case of Holocaust-denial rests on this supposed conspiracy.

As for the testimony of the survivors, which the "revisionists" claim is the only evidence, there are indeed numerous testimonies to gassings and other forms of atrocities, from Jewish inmates who survived the camps, and also from other inmates like POWs. Many of the prisoners that testified about the gassing are not Jewish, of course. Look for instance at the testimony of Polish officer Zenon Rozansky about the first homicidal gassing in Auschwitz, in which 850 Russian POWs were gassed to death, in Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 154:

Those who were propped against the door leant with a curious stiffness and then fell right at our feet, striking their faces hard against the concrete floor. Corpses! Corpses standing bolt upright and filling the entire corridor of the bunker, till they were packed so tight that it was impossible for more to fall.

Which of the "revisionists" will deny this? Which of them was there? Which of them has the authority to tell Rozansky what he did or did not see?

The statement that "no 'survivor' claims to have actually witnessed any gassing" is clearly false; this was changed to "few survivors" in later versions, which is close to the truth.

But we do not need to rely solely on testimony, from the survivors, Nazis, or otherwise. Many wartime documents, not postwar descriptions, specifically regarding gassings and other atrocities, were seized by the U.S. armed forces. Most are in the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; some are in Germany.

Regarding the gassing vans, precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):

If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. ...

The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.

And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both "top secret" and "only copy". This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as "processing" and the victims as "subjects" and "the load." (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. ...

The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. ...

Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness.

Slip-ups occurred in written correspondence regarding the gas chambers themselves, some of which, fortunately, escaped destruction and were found after the war. A memo written to SS man Karl Bischoff on November 27, 1942 describes the gas chamber in Krema II not with the usual mundane name of "Leichenkeller," but rather as the "Sonderkeller" "special cellar."

And two months later, on January 29, 1943, Bischoff wrote a memo to Kammler, referring to that same chamber as the "Vergasungskeller." (See Gutman, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, 1994, pp. 223, 227.) "Vergasungskeller" means exactly what it sounds like: "gassing cellar," an underground gas chamber.

Holocaust-deniers turn to Arthur Butz, who provides a specious explanation for the Vergasungskeller: "Vergasung," he says, cannot refer to killing people with gas, but only to the process of converting a solid or liquid into gas. Therefore, he says the "Vergasungskeller," must have been a special room where the fuel for the Auschwitz ovens was converted into gas -- a "gasification cellar."

There are three problems with this explanation. First, "Vergasung" certainly can refer to killing people with gas; Butz does not speak German and he should not try to lecture about the language. Second, there is no room that could possibly serve this function which Butz describes -- years after writing his book, he admitted this, and helplessly suggested that there might be another building somewhere in the camp that might house a gasification cellar. Third, the type of oven used at Auschwitz did not require any gasification process! The ovens burned solid fuel. (See Gutman, op. cit., pp. 184-193.)

So what does the term "gassing cellar" refer to? Holocaust-deniers have yet to offer any believable explanation.

An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)

A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):

We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent....

Why would morgues have urgently needed peepholes made out of a double layer of third-of-an-inch-thick glass?

The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report, for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):

Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.

Bischoff and Prüfer turned out to be wrong, and a metal fan ended up working acceptably well. But the fact that they thought it necessary demonstrates that cyanide was to be routinely used in the rooms which deniers call morgues. (Cyanide is useless for disinfecting morgues, as it does not kill bacteria.)

Other captured documents, even if they don't refer directly to some part of the extermination process, refer to it by implication. A captured memo to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler reveals that the expected incineration capacity of the Auschwitz ovens was a combined total of 4,756 corpses per day (see a photograph of the document or Kogon, op. cit., p. 157).

Deniers often claim that this total could not be achieved in practice (see question 45). That's not the point. These crematoria were carefully designed, in 1942, to have sufficient capacity to dispose of 140,000 corpses per month -- in a camp that housed only 125,000. We can conclude that massive deaths were predicted, indeed planned-for, as early as mid-1942. A camp designed to incinerate its full capacity of inmates every four weeks is not merely a detention center.

Finally, apart from the abundant testimonies, confessions, and physical evidence of the extermination process, there is certainly no want of evidence of the Nazis' intentions and plans.

Here are just a few examples. Hans Frank's diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):

But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland' [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reichkommissariat.' So liquidate them yourself.

Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. ...

We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation....

That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.

Himmler's speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):

I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it."

The extermination effort was even mentioned in at least one official Nazi court verdict. In May 1943, a Munich court wrote in its decision against SS-Untersturmführer Max Taubner that:

The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.

And Hitler spoke quite clearly in public on no fewer than three occasions. On January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland, he spoke publicly to the Reichstag (transcribed from Skeptic magazine, Vol. 2, No. 4, p. 50):

Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.

By the way, this last phrase is, in German, "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa," which German-speakers will realize is quite unambiguous.

In September, 1942:

...if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan people which would be exterminated but Jewry...

On November 8, 1942:

You will recall the session of the Reichstag during which I declared: if Jewry should imagine that it could bring about an international world war to exterminate the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of Jewry in Europe. People always laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps no longer laugh a short time from now.

There are many other examples of documents and testimonies that could be presented.

Keep in mind that the IHR's answer to "what proof exists?" is "none." It has certainly been demonstrated already that this pat answer is totally dishonest. And this is the main point we wish to communicate: that Holocaust-denial is dishonest.

We continue by analyzing the remaining, more-specific, claims about what evidence supposedly does not exist.

"No mounds of ashes" is an internal contradiction. In an article in the journal published by the same IHR that publishes these Q&A, the Journal's editor reported that a Polish commission in 1946 found human ash at the Treblinka death camp to a depth of over twenty feet. This article is available on The IHR's web site.
(Apparently some survivors claimed that the corpses were always thoroughly cremated. Because uncremated human remains were mixed with the ash, the editor suggested that the testimonies were false. Amazingly, he had no comment on how a twenty-foot layer of human ashes came to be there in the first place. Perhaps he felt that to be unworthy of mention.)

There are also piles of ashes at Maidanek. At Auschwitz-Birkenau, ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers' fields.

"No crematoria" capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis' own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 and 45.

"No piles of clothes"? Apparently, the IHR considers piles of clothes to be "hard evidence"! This is strange, because they do not deny the other sorts of piles found at Nazi camps: piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes (at Auschwitz, Belzec, and Maidanek), piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs (see Swiebocka, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, 1993, p. 210), piles of human hair (ibid, p. 211), piles of ransacked luggage (ibid, p. 213), piles of shaving-brushes (ibid, p. 215), piles of combs (ibid), piles of pots and pans (ibid), and yes, even the piles of clothes (ibid, p. 214) that the IHR claims do not exist.
Perhaps the authors of the 66 Q&A realized that it was dangerous for them to admit that these piles were hard evidence, because then they would also be forced to admit a number of other things as "hard evidence." Perhaps this is why they removed this phrase from the revised 66 Q&A.

If items were not generally found in mass quantities, it is only because the Nazis distributed them to the German population. A memo on this was captured, revealing that they even redistributed women's underwear.

"No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.

"No lamp shades made of human skin?" False -- lampshades and other human-skin "ornaments" were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)

"No records"? This is nonsense (which may explain why this claim was removed from the "revised" versions of the 66 Q&A). True, extermination by gassing was always referred to with code-words, and those victims who arrived at death camps only to be immediately gassed were not recorded in any books. But there are slip-ups in the code-word usage that reveal the true meanings, as already described. There are inventories and requisitions for the Krema which reveal items anomalous with ordinary use but perfect for mass homicidal gassing. There are deportation train records which, pieced together, speak clearly. And so on. Several examples have been given above.

"No credible demographic statistics"? This is the second internal contradiction -- see question 2 and question 15. The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country:
Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500

(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available -- for instance, a separate file with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).

Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude in question. In an article in CMU's student newspaper, the head of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that newly discovered documents -- especially in the former USSR -- indicate that the number of victims is higher than six million. Other historians claim not much over five million. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust uses 5,596,000 as a minimum and 5,860,000 as a maximum (Gutman, 1990, p. 1799).

In summary:
"Revisionists" often claim, correctly, that the burden of proof is on historians. The proof, of course, has been a matter of public record since late 1945, and is available in libraries around the world. The burden has been met, many, many times over. You've just seen a brief presentation of some of the highlights of that immense body of proof; much more is readily available.

To even argue that the Holocaust never happened is ludicrous. To claim straight-faced that none of this proof even exists is beyond ludicrous, and it is a clear example of "revisionist" dishonesty.

_______________

2+3) Witness testimony is very weak and the German officers had their testicles crushed and warned families would suffer if they did not confess

Well the phrase "Witness testimony is very weak" is simply not an argument; it is really more of an accusation of lying with regards to all testimonies of mass executions, including those of the Nazis themselves and of concentration camp survivors who claim that mass executions were carried out. I would further allege that if large amounts of people were deliberately worked to death with very short mortality once imprisoned, this also constitutes genocide; irrespective of whether they were executed by firing squad, CO2 suffocation, hydrogen cyanide, starvation, being worked to death or whatever, it is still genocide.

With regards to confessions extracted by torture, there is absolutely no question that the Anglo-American state terrorists tortured prisoners and that they still do so today in Iraq and Afghanistan. All such confessions are absolutely worthless as it is commonly held that under extreme pain, persons will usually confess to just about anything a torturer requests. However it does not follow that because "some" confessions regarding mass executions were extracted under torture that all testimonials, confessions and evidence of mass executions are fraudulent.

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/hoess_rudolf-COM-Auschwitz.GIF

A central argument by the IHR is that the Auschwitz commandant, Rudolf Hoess (sometimes spelled in English as “Hoss,” and not to be confused with Hitler's deputy with a similar name, Rudolf Hess) was forced to confess that Auschwitz was an extermination camp, a fact that he later never denied.

"In the notes titled by Hoss' "The Solution to the Jewish Question in
Auschwitz Concentration Camp," he writes the following: "In the autumn of
1941 a secret order was issued instructing the Gestapo to weed out the
Russian _politruks_, commissars, and certain political officials from the
prisoner-of-war camps, and to transfer them to the nearest concentration
camps for liquidation. Small transports of these prisoners were
continually arriving in Auschwitz and they were shot in the gravel pit
near the Tobacco Monopoly buildings or in the courtyard of Block 11.

http://www.holocaustinfo.net/images/zyklon_box.jpg

When I was absent on duty, my deputy, Captain Fritzsch, on his own initiative
used gas for killing those Russian prisoners of war. He crammed the
underground detention cells with Russians and, protected by a gas mask,
discharged Zyklon B gas into the cells, killing the victims instantly"
(Ho"ss, _Commandant in Auschwitz_, pp. 125ff.,159). Hoss' mentions neither
the number of the murdered Russian prisoners of war nor the place were
Zyclon B is used."

More on: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand/ftp.py?people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand//second-block11-gassing

Further the Nizkor response:

"If Auschwitz was not an extermination camp, why did the commandant, Rudolf Hoss, confess that it was?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

19. If Auschwitz was not an extermination camp, why did the commandant, Rudolf Hoss, confess that it was?

The IHR says (original):

He was tortured by Jewish interrogators in British uniform, as one of them has subsequently admitted.

The IHR says (revised):

He was tortured by British military police, as one of his interrogators later admitted.

The Samisdat version says:

Time-honored methods were used to get him to tell his captors what they wanted to hear.

Nizkor replies:

Wait a minute! The story gets more and more vague with each revision.

What exactly did this torturer admit? The IHR's first claim was that the interrogaters were Jewish operatives wearing (phony) British uniforms. If one of these interrogators supposedly admitted this, why did the IHR change things around and make these phony Jewish operatives into real British military police?

The real answer is that this claim of "Jewish interrogators in British uniform" appears nowhere else in Holocaust-denier literature. This claim appears only in the "Q&A." There is no evidence whatsoever to support it.

In other words, someone just made it up. Later, someone else decided they'd better quietly drop the whole thing. How many of the other 65 Q&A are similar? We can't know, because they don't provide any evidence to back any of them up.

Regarding the Höss confession:

We must consider all information in context. There are numerous other testimonies which confirm the essential facts of Höss' confession. There are captured documents which speak very clearly of gassing and mass shooting. The list goes on and on; for just a few examples, see the answer to question 1.

Deniers depend very heavily upon Hosss supposedly being coerced and fed a story. But they only have two pieces of evidence:

A lurid book by one Rupert Butler called Legions of Death. Butler tells of seeing Hoess beaten when he was first found. He makes no mention of the interrogators being Jewish agents in British uniform, of course.
And most importantly, Butler's version of what happened contradicts the deniers' hypothesis that Hoess was fed a story. Butler's book nowhere mentions Hoess being given a particular story to tell, it simply says Hoess was beaten.

A piece of hearsay that is supposedly contained in a secret document which the "revisionist" Robert Faurisson is not at liberty to reveal. (And even if it were revealed, it would be the first time the deniers ever accepted hearsay as being valid...)
(See footnote 2 of Mark Weber's essay, titled "Let's Hear Both Sides" on the IHR's web site and "Different Views on the Holocaust" on Ernst Zündel's web site.)

On this pair of flimsy excuses, the deniers dismiss and ignore Hoess' confession, his testimony, his memoirs, and everything else he said and wrote about the gassings and the extermination program. Excerpts from his testimony and memoirs are available."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar19.html

3) Jewish holocaust stories fall apart under scrutiny - many are simply ludicrous and it has to be said MALEVOLENT inventions

http://www.topnews.in/files/Australian-Holocaust.jpg

The literature and testimonials which can be described as "Jewish holocaust stories" are quite abundant. There were around 200,000 Jewish survivors from all the German concentration camps. It would be unsurprising if some of their accounts were not elaborated, however to claim that all such persons who were death camp inmates simply fabricated their stories is just ridiculous.

4) Forensic evidence proves the camps were not mass extermination centres

Well that is not really an argument; it is an "appeal to authority;" the authority of uncited scientists. There is no forensic evidence which "proves" anything of the sort.

5) Photographs were faked and/or used out of context

http://romaniroots.webs.com/holocaust.jpg

Again this is just another fallacious argument which implies that "all" photographs were faked and used out of context..

"Fallacy: Biased Sample

Also Known as: Biased Statistics, Loaded Sample, Prejudiced Statistics, Prejudiced Sample, Loaded Statistics, Biased Induction, Biased Generalization." http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html

Yes indeed it can be established that "some" photographs have been faked and used out of context, however consider the following argument.

1: "Some" photographs have been faked and used out of context regarding Nazi genocide.

2: Therefore "all" photographs must have been faked and used out of context which relate to Nazi genocides.

This is simply a false conclusion.

We see here an avowed Satanist coming down on the side of the Holocaust.

Taking Sides.

http://www.holocaustinfo.net/images/tostjerner.jpg

It is not a question of taking ideological sides; the Soviets, the Nazis, the British and Americans all committed genocide, and the Anglo-American state terrorists / narco-terrorists continue to do so today; it is a question of historical methodology and of researching both sides of an issue and attempting to come to anunbiasedd conclusion. There are usually always around 200 million people in the world today on the brink of starvation; this is a deliberate genocide caused by ideological Capitalists who insist on the basic needs for human survival (i.e., food) being used as a commodity; the genocide caused by modern Capitalism far surpasses all of human history's genocidal mass murderers.

Satanist.

Further the term "Satanist" is simply a term used by religious fanatics to describe a person who does not adhere to their own particular brand name of religious fanaticism or who is openly anti-religious (an enemy / adversary of religion) and by such a definition I am a militant evangelical Satanist, however I certainly do not worship a deity named "Satan" or indeed "any" deity or ancestral spirit. I suppose that for my political enemies and the vast array of religious fanatics, I try my best to be "Satan (enemy)" personified; however I recognise no higher moral authority than myself and this is a position commonly taken by all humanists, rationalists, Thelemites, Anarchists, etc. As far as I am concerned "I" am the judge of the living and the dead.

Communist

"During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals." United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

Since Capitalism is a militant and genocidal ideology which has contributed the human suffering, starvation and deaths through war of billions of people, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the mass executions of anti-Communists such as the "Jehovah Witnesses" and other Christian Capitalist religious fanatics; the ideological Capitalists and collaborators with the International Dictatorship of Capitalism have no problems with the genocide of their enemies and victims; we live in a state of constant war and the purpose of war is the defeat of one's enemies; the Capitalists employ an "end justifies the means" strategy, which forces their enemies to have to justify the same strategy in order to defeat them; what goes around comes around.

In Summary.

http://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-100/1049-1/%7B83C41296-05A1-41EB-83BC-706C7ED4D93A%7DImg100.jpg

Historical Revisionism is a process which "all" historians should be engaged in of researching, questioning and re-evaluating the evidence of past history; it is simply part of historical methodology and demands the critical thinking of an investigative journalist; this is also entirely necessary to counter the propaganda and decpetion of particularly the world's leading terrorist regimes such as that of the Anglo-American state terrorists / narco-terrorists. Holocaust Denial on the other hand is simply an ideologically motivated position which is generally promoted by Neonazis and their sympathisers.

Lucifer
Blasphemy, Heresy, War, Revolution, etc.

"I am not Christ or a philanthropist, ... I am all the contrary of a Christ.... I fight for the things I believe in, with all the weapons at my disposal and try to leave the other man dead so that I don't get nailed to a cross or any other place. .........

If the rockets (Soviet nuclear weapons) had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York, in our defense against aggression.............

Hate as a factor in the struggle, intransigent hatred for the enemy that takes one beyond the natural limitations of a human being and converts one into an effective, violent, selective, cold killing machine. Our soldiers must be like that; a people without hate cannot triumph over a brutal enemy." Che Guevara.

boots

25-10-2010, 07:12 AM

Long post luciferhorus unfortunately rodin wont read it, it's beyond his comprehension.

Originally Posted by rodin http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059348553#post1059348553)
Some stories are true that never happened - Elie Weisel

A few of the holocaust deniers have used this quote as evidence to discredit Elie Weisel and if you do a quick Google search the first 2 pages turn up this same quote under the same assumption.

It is totally false and has been taken out of context.

#3509 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1059344643&postcount=3509)

It has nothing to do with the holocaust. The book is called "The Storyteller Sholem Aleichem and Elie Wiesel."

It is about judistic philosophy. This is the quote in it's context.

"The introduction to the book is an encounter between Wiesel and his Rebbe from before the war. The author no longer fits into the traditional mode, because he "was no longer his [the Rebbe's] disciple (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/disciple) disciple: see apostle.
..... Click the link for more information.,"(34) now being his own Rebbe. Wiesel tells the Rebbe that he has been writing, and the Rebbe questions the importance of that act, trying to understand this new path. Wiesel responds by saying that "some writings could sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds."(35) They discuss the nature of fiction, the Rebbe insisting that Wiesel writes lies. No, is the reply, "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are - although they never occurred."(36) The Rebbe should know this, should understand that stories function to communicate meaning, because he is familiar with the old Aggadic tradition and the new Hasidic tradition of storytelling. Stories function to build connections between people and to provide meaning in a seemingly meaningless world. Wiesel tries to place his storytelling into context as a meaningful Jewish act by drawing on the older traditions and re-telling them in modern ways. The Rebbe's failure to respond is a failure of traditional Judaism, evoking the same critique of ineffective and sterile leadership that Sholem Aleichem uses. Wiesel seeks to re-open Aggadic creativity despite the objections of the Rebbe, or, rather, because of them."

ladybird

25-10-2010, 12:43 PM

This thread - as many others - was started to back the system, just repeating "information" created by the system.
Posting the relevant links instead of c & p the stuff would have been enough, but would of course not fill the thread.

Nothing left to discuss here because there is no sense in discussing MSM-"information" and in fact
the discussion here

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102754

is much more interesting, at least for those who agree with my previous sentences.

.

tinyint

25-10-2010, 02:44 PM

post in order to rate the thread.

luciferhorus

25-10-2010, 03:22 PM

Long post luciferhorus unfortunately rodin wont read it, it's beyond his comprehension.

Yes Boots, I do realise that the Holocaust Denialists are unable to comprehend or consider any evidence or testimonials (even those of the Nazis themselves) which does not support their ideological perspective, however these forums are picked up by seach engine spiders and most people here are simply passive observers and researchers / students.

Some of the debaters here would be more at home on Neonazi discussion groups such as http://www.stormfront.org, however unfortunately I have long ago been excommunicated from Stormfront; the DI forum fortunately seems to have a policy of open and free debating, including participants who are Neonazis, racists, Christians, Muslims and assorted religious fanatics including even open opponents of David Icke; that is an entirely healthy aspect of the DI forum which is not replicated on some of the pro-Nazi discussion groups which are mostly Neonazis ranting and preaching to the already converted.

Lux

tinyint

25-10-2010, 05:16 PM

Yes Boots, I do realise that the Holocaust Denialists are unable to comprehend or consider any evidence or testimonials (even those of the Nazis themselves) which does not support their ideological perspective, however these forums are picked up by seach engine spiders and most people here are simply passive observers and researchers / students.

Some of the debaters here would be more at home on Neonazi discussion groups such as http://www.stormfront.org, however unfortunately I have long ago been excommunicated from Stormfront; the DI forum fortunately seems to have a policy of open and free debating, including participants who are Neonazis, racists, Christians, Muslims and assorted religious fanatics including even open opponents of David Icke; that is an entirely healthy aspect of the DI forum which is not replicated on some of the pro-Nazi discussion groups which are mostly Neonazis ranting and preaching to the already converted.

Lux

*yawn*
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Q52ocPPGJy0-BM:http://static.vouchercodes.co.uk/images/vouchers/expired_printable.png&t=1

How did the showers technically work with solid Zyklon B?

No nizkor temple hoax please.

boots

26-10-2010, 07:47 AM

Yes Boots, I do realise that the Holocaust Denialists are unable to comprehend or consider any evidence or testimonials (even those of the Nazis themselves) which does not support their ideological perspective, however these forums are picked up by seach engine spiders and most people here are simply passive observers and researchers / students.

The Holocaust deniers think that any evidence which is put out by historians has to be propaganda which is blatantly untrue. Historians are academics who seek facts, not Zionist plants.

The trouble with Google and other search engines is that misinformation can become truth to those who only want to see what they want to see. Then you have the added 'bonus' of people who's job it is to sign up to forums to help spread an ideology.

Some of the debaters here would be more at home on Neonazi discussion groups such as http://www.stormfront.org, however unfortunately I have long ago been excommunicated from Stormfront; the DI forum fortunately seems to have a policy of open and free debating, including participants who are Neonazis, racists, Christians, Muslims and assorted religious fanatics including even open opponents of David Icke; that is an entirely healthy aspect of the DI forum which is not replicated on some of the pro-Nazi discussion groups which are mostly Neonazis ranting and preaching to the already converted.

Lux

Yes the DI forum is good in that it allows the expression of thought. It's a microcosm of the macrocosm. Unfortunately the foolhearty will see what the uninformed write and believe it to be true.

.

boots

26-10-2010, 07:54 AM

*yawn*
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Q52ocPPGJy0-BM:http://static.vouchercodes.co.uk/images/vouchers/expired_printable.png&t=1

How did the showers technically work with solid Zyklon B?

No nizkor temple hoax please.

The Zyklon B was poured into the Dachua gassing chamber from the outside. The methods used at Auschwitz were different the Zyklon B was lowered into the chamber from the roof.

I just love how you have locked onto this "how did the showers work" bit because flickflack got it wrong. Now you erroneously use this as a method of denial.

As your other Neo Nazi friend amarlsright likes to say "bizarre".

.

ladybird

26-10-2010, 08:09 AM

The Zyklon B was poured into the Dachua gassing chamber from the outside. The methods used at Auschwitz were different the Zyklon B was lowered into the chamber from the roof.

I just love how you have locked onto this "how did the showers work" bit because flickflack got it wrong. Now you erroneously use this as a method of denial.

As your other Neo Nazi friend amarlsright likes to say "bizarre".

.

There were no gassings at Dachau.
I still wonder, how they could get the deadly pellets

http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Zyklon-B.jpg

through the tiny holes of the shower heads

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/Majdanek/fullsize/IMG_0205.jpg

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/dachaue011.jpg

http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/auschwitz/JPG/ZyklonB.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/199568050_f17297e8fd.jpg?v=0

:confused:

boots

26-10-2010, 10:20 AM

There were no gassings at Dachau.
I still wonder, how they could get the deadly pellets

http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Zyklon-B.jpg

through the tiny holes of the shower heads

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/Majdanek/fullsize/IMG_0205.jpg

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/dachaue011.jpg

http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/auschwitz/JPG/ZyklonB.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/199568050_f17297e8fd.jpg?v=0

:confused:

Gassing were carried out at Dachau for only a sort period on time, then they were sent to Linx for experimentation before being gassed there.

Zyklon B was poured through in bins .

The Dachau Gas Chambers
Photograph 40

Close-up view of interior of bin-like drawer showing protection grating. (Photo by Dr. Daniel Keren.)
http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/images/photo40.jpg

ladybird

26-10-2010, 10:38 AM

Gassing were carried out at Dachau for only a sort period on time, then they were sent to Linx for experimentation before being gassed there.

As you are recurrently spreading lies I can only recommend to every reader
who is really interested in the truth, to do the same what I did:

Visit and/or call Dachau Memorial site
or write an e-mail:

KZ-Gedenkstätte Dachau
Dr. Gabriele Hammermann
Leiterin der KZ-Gedenkstätte Dachau
Alte Römerstraße 75
D - 85221 Dachau

Tel: +49 (0)8131 - 66 99 70
E-Mail: info@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de
Internet: www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de

boots

26-10-2010, 11:06 AM

As you are recurrently spreading lies I can only recommend to every reader
who is really interested in the truth, to do the same what I did:

Visit and/or call Dachau Memorial site
or write an e-mail:

If you want to be hypnotized thats your problem.

This thread is about Auschwitz gas chambers.

Crematory I at the Stammlager

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz02.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz02.jpg) Gas Chamber I http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz03.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz03.jpg) Crematory I * The gas chamber was installed in the mortuary of the crematory, and could contain between 700 and 800 persons (17 x 4.5 m). The Zyklon B was poured into the gas chamber through openings in the roof. This gas chamber had no dummy shower fittings on the ceiling. The use of the mortuary had an additional benefit in that it possessed a strong ventilation system, in contrast to the cellar of Block 11.
The gas chamber was put into operation in autumn 1941. The last killings were carried out in December 1942 when the Sonderkommando, which had removed the corpses of the first mass graves in Birkenau, was gassed.
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz04.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz04.jpg) The Roof of Gas Chamber I The number of victims who perished in this gas chamber is unknown. Filip Müller, who belonged to the Sonderkommando of Crematory I for about one year, estimated the number of victims at some ten thousand while Jean-Claude Pressac calculated a maximum of 10,000.
After its use as a gas chamber the SS used the building as an execution site. Following completion of the four large crematories at Birkenau the gas chamber was used for other purposes, and in 1944 it was converted into an air-raid bunker.
After the liberation of Auschwitz the building was partly re-constructed into its original state. So today's visitor sees a re-construction with original parts.

boots

26-10-2010, 11:09 AM

The provisional Gas Chambers Bunker 1 and Bunker 2 in Birkenau

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz05.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz05.jpg) Location of Bunker 1 and 2 Because the capacity of Crematory I was not sufficient for the increasing number who were to be killed if Auschwitz was to play a key role in the extermination of the European Jews, and because the location was too near to the Stammlager, the camp administration found an alternative solution at the Birkenau camp site. Two empty houses belonging to expelled Poles were converted into gas chambers.

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz07.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz07.jpg) Location of Bunker 1 Bunker 1, also called the "Red House" because of its red, unplastered walls, was located at the north border of the Birkenau camp, at the later construction section III. The building measured about 15 x 6 m and originally had four rooms, which were now converted into two gas chambers. Each room had a door, and the windows were sealed with bricks. For the introduction of the gas, each of the two rooms had two openings (about 30 x 40 cm) in the outer walls which could be closed with gas-tight flaps. The doors were made air-tight with felt, and could be additionally tightened with screws. Signs ("to disinfection") were posted at the doors. Inside the gas chambers the walls were painted white, and the floor was covered with sawdust after each gassing. Because a ventilation system was not installed, the aeration took a long time. In the beginning, the gassings were carried out at night, later in the daytime as well because of too many and too unpunctual transports. Each gas chamber could contain up to 400 victims. The corpses were buried in mass graves nearby.
It is not clear when Bunker 1 was put into operation. Danuta Czech mentions late March 1942, other researchers (van Pelt and Pressac) think that it happened in May. Probably it was in March because it was then that the big extermination actions of the Jews from Upper Silesia (Oberschlesien) started.
When the large crematories at Birkenau were put into operation in spring and summer 1943, the primitive and provisional gas chambers of Bunker 1 were no longer necessary, and the building was demolished probably in March 1943.

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz08.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz08.jpg) Remnants of Bunker 2 Bunker 2, also called the "White House" because of its colour, was located at the west end of the Birkenau camp, some hundred metres behind the later "Zentralsauna". It was put into action as a gas chamber building, probably in June 1942. This house measured 17 x 8 m. Its rooms were converted into four gas chambers of different sizes. In contrast to Bunker 1 all gas chambers had two doors which provided a more rapid ventilation after the gassings. The other installations were similar to Bunker 1. The daily killing quota was higher than in Bunker 1 because of the "two doors system" and the larger gas chambers.
The SS camp physician Johann Kremer wrote in his diaries on 12 October 1942:
“... Nevertheless being present in the night during a special action against a Dutch transport (1,600 persons). Horrible scene in front of the last Bunker! That was the 10th special action."
At the margin he added the name Hössler because SS-Obersturmführer Franz Hössler was responsible for the gassings at the "Bunkers". Hössler had tried to gass all victims together. A last man he couldn't press into the gas chamber, so he shot him. However Kremer made a mistake in his diary, speaking of Dutch Jews. There is every indication that they were Jews from Belgium who came from Mechelen and arrived on 12. Oktober in Auschwitz (transports no. 12 and 13 from Mechelen had been joined together and left Mechelen on 10. Oktober). 28 men and 88 women were accommodated in the camp, the rest of 1,673 persons were gassed.

Bunker 2 was no longer used when the large crematories were put into action. The wooden barracks which were used as undressing rooms, were demolished. The brick building remained unused until summer 1944 when it was used again as a gassing facility for Hungarian Jews. During this "Hungarian Action" the building was called Bunker 5. It was demolished in November 1944.

Rudolf Höß:
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz21.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz21.jpg) Old "Judenrampe" "Two farm-houses which were in a secluded part of Birkenau area were sealed and converted into gas chambers with strong wooden doors, and the windows bricked up. The transports themselves were unloaded at a side-track in Birkenau, outside of the camp. The prisoners fit for work were selected and marched off to the camps; all the luggage was put down and later brought to the securities warehouses. The others, destined for gassing, went by foot to the facility 1 km away. The ill and those who could't walk were transported to the farm-houses on lorries. When transports arrived at night all were transported there by lorries.
In front of the farm-houses all had to undress behind erected walls made from brushwood. On the doors "Desinfektionsraum" (Disinfection room") was painted. The Unterscharführers on duty had to tell the people by interpreters that they had to have a close eye on their belongings so that they can be found again after the delousing. This calmed the people, and they were fooled into thinking, they really were going to be deloused. Then the naked entered the rooms, according to the size between 200-300 people. The doors were screwed shut and 1-2 cans Zyklon B scattered in through small openings. This was a grainy mass of prussic acid. The gassing lasted 3-10 minutes, depending on the weather. After half an hour the doors were opened and the corpses were pulled out by a prisoners command which permanently worked there; then the corpses were cremated in pits. Prior to the burning the gold teeth and rings were removed; between the corpses firewood was laid, and when 100 corpses were piled up, the firewood was set on fire with rags soaked with paraffin. When the fire was well burning the other corpses were added. That fat which assembled at the bottom of the pits was added to the fire by use of buckets to accelerate the burning, especially during bad weather. The cremation process took 6-7 hours. One could smell the stench of the burning corpses even in the camp, when the wind blew from the west. After clearing of the pits the ashes were pulverized. This happened on a concrete slab where prisoners crushed the bone remnants with wooden crashers. These residues were brought with lorries to a secluded site and thrown into the Vistula (Weichsel) River."

boots

26-10-2010, 11:12 AM

:www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers

The provisional Gas Chambers Bunker 1 and Bunker 2 in Birkenau

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz05.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz05.jpg) Location of Bunker 1 and 2 Because the capacity of Crematory I was not sufficient for the increasing number who were to be killed if Auschwitz was to play a key role in the extermination of the European Jews, and because the location was too near to the Stammlager, the camp administration found an alternative solution at the Birkenau camp site. Two empty houses belonging to expelled Poles were converted into gas chambers.

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz07.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz07.jpg) Location of Bunker 1 Bunker 1, also called the "Red House" because of its red, unplastered walls, was located at the north border of the Birkenau camp, at the later construction section III. The building measured about 15 x 6 m and originally had four rooms, which were now converted into two gas chambers. Each room had a door, and the windows were sealed with bricks. For the introduction of the gas, each of the two rooms had two openings (about 30 x 40 cm) in the outer walls which could be closed with gas-tight flaps. The doors were made air-tight with felt, and could be additionally tightened with screws. Signs ("to disinfection") were posted at the doors. Inside the gas chambers the walls were painted white, and the floor was covered with sawdust after each gassing. Because a ventilation system was not installed, the aeration took a long time. In the beginning, the gassings were carried out at night, later in the daytime as well because of too many and too unpunctual transports. Each gas chamber could contain up to 400 victims. The corpses were buried in mass graves nearby.
It is not clear when Bunker 1 was put into operation. Danuta Czech mentions late March 1942, other researchers (van Pelt and Pressac) think that it happened in May. Probably it was in March because it was then that the big extermination actions of the Jews from Upper Silesia (Oberschlesien) started.
When the large crematories at Birkenau were put into operation in spring and summer 1943, the primitive and provisional gas chambers of Bunker 1 were no longer necessary, and the building was demolished probably in March 1943.

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz08.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz08.jpg) Remnants of Bunker 2 Bunker 2, also called the "White House" because of its colour, was located at the west end of the Birkenau camp, some hundred metres behind the later "Zentralsauna". It was put into action as a gas chamber building, probably in June 1942. This house measured 17 x 8 m. Its rooms were converted into four gas chambers of different sizes. In contrast to Bunker 1 all gas chambers had two doors which provided a more rapid ventilation after the gassings. The other installations were similar to Bunker 1. The daily killing quota was higher than in Bunker 1 because of the "two doors system" and the larger gas chambers.
The SS camp physician Johann Kremer wrote in his diaries on 12 October 1942:
“... Nevertheless being present in the night during a special action against a Dutch transport (1,600 persons). Horrible scene in front of the last Bunker! That was the 10th special action."
At the margin he added the name Hössler because SS-Obersturmführer Franz Hössler was responsible for the gassings at the "Bunkers". Hössler had tried to gass all victims together. A last man he couldn't press into the gas chamber, so he shot him. However Kremer made a mistake in his diary, speaking of Dutch Jews. There is every indication that they were Jews from Belgium who came from Mechelen and arrived on 12. Oktober in Auschwitz (transports no. 12 and 13 from Mechelen had been joined together and left Mechelen on 10. Oktober). 28 men and 88 women were accommodated in the camp, the rest of 1,673 persons were gassed.

Bunker 2 was no longer used when the large crematories were put into action. The wooden barracks which were used as undressing rooms, were demolished. The brick building remained unused until summer 1944 when it was used again as a gassing facility for Hungarian Jews. During this "Hungarian Action" the building was called Bunker 5. It was demolished in November 1944.

Rudolf Höß:
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/auschwitz21.jpg (http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/pic/bigauschwitz21.jpg) Old "Judenrampe" "Two farm-houses which were in a secluded part of Birkenau area were sealed and converted into gas chambers with strong wooden doors, and the windows bricked up. The transports themselves were unloaded at a side-track in Birkenau, outside of the camp. The prisoners fit for work were selected and marched off to the camps; all the luggage was put down and later brought to the securities warehouses. The others, destined for gassing, went by foot to the facility 1 km away. The ill and those who could't walk were transported to the farm-houses on lorries. When transports arrived at night all were transported there by lorries.
In front of the farm-houses all had to undress behind erected walls made from brushwood. On the doors "Desinfektionsraum" (Disinfection room") was painted. The Unterscharführers on duty had to tell the people by interpreters that they had to have a close eye on their belongings so that they can be found again after the delousing. This calmed the people, and they were fooled into thinking, they really were going to be deloused. Then the naked entered the rooms, according to the size between 200-300 people. The doors were screwed shut and 1-2 cans Zyklon B scattered in through small openings. This was a grainy mass of prussic acid. The gassing lasted 3-10 minutes, depending on the weather. After half an hour the doors were opened and the corpses were pulled out by a prisoners command which permanently worked there; then the corpses were cremated in pits. Prior to the burning the gold teeth and rings were removed; between the corpses firewood was laid, and when 100 corpses were piled up, the firewood was set on fire with rags soaked with paraffin. When the fire was well burning the other corpses were added. That fat which assembled at the bottom of the pits was added to the fire by use of buckets to accelerate the burning, especially during bad weather. The cremation process took 6-7 hours. One could smell the stench of the burning corpses even in the camp, when the wind blew from the west. After clearing of the pits the ashes were pulverized. This happened on a concrete slab where prisoners crushed the bone remnants with wooden crashers. These residues were brought with lorries to a secluded site and thrown into the Vistula (Weichsel) River."

ladybird

26-10-2010, 11:26 AM

If you want to be hypnotized thats your problem.

So you claim that those who run DCCMS and work there are liars?

http://www.comiteinternationaldachau.com/

http://www.stiftung-bayerische-gedenkstaetten.de/pdf/gesetz.pdf
http://www.stiftung-bayerische-gedenkstaetten.de/pdf/satzung.pdf

Contact them:

Email: General Requests info@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de
Educational Department bildung@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de
Historical Department wissenschaft@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de
Archive archiv@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de
Press presse@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de
Phone: +49(0)8131 - 66997 - 125
CID Bookshop cid-buchverkauf@kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de

The Memorial Site is open Tuesday to Sunday from 9:00 am to 5:00 pm and on all public holidays. On Mondays the Memorial Site is closed.

No prior appointment is necessary and entry is free.

Die Stiftung hat ihre Geschäftsräume in den Räumen der Bayerischen Landeszentrale für politische Bildungsarbeit.

Impressum

Stiftung Bayerische Gedenkstätten
c/o Bayerische Landeszentrale für politische Bildungsarbeit
vertreten durch den Stiftungsdirektor Karl Freller
Praterinsel 2
80538 München

Tel.: (089) 2186-2123
Fax: (089) 2186-2180
E-Mail: info@stiftung-bayerische-gedenkstaetten.de

Grafische Gestaltung, Programmierung, Hosting:
Aaron Schweiger, Dachau
E-Mail: mail@aaron-schweiger.de
Homepage: www.aaron-schweiger.de

or one of their cooperation partners, multiplicators and Dachau organizations:

http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/information/partners.html
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/multiplikatoren/index.html
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/information/links.html

When the Concentration Camp Memorial Site was opened in 1965, an archive and library were also created. Both are open to the public and may be used by appointment.

The archive contains materials of varying types and origins:

* Written documents
* Photos (current count over 6,000)
* Plans (Maps, Blueprints, Layouts)
* Original 3-Dimensional relics
* Phonograms (current count 350)
* Films (current count 1,200)

luciferhorus

27-10-2010, 07:04 PM

So you claim that those who run DCCMS and work there are liars?

http://www.comiteinternationaldachau.com/

http://www.stiftung-bayerische-gedenkstaetten.de/pdf/gesetz.pdf
http://www.stiftung-bayerische-gedenkstaetten.de/pdf/satzung.pdf

Contact them:

or one of their cooperation partners, multiplicators and Dachau organizations:

http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/information/partners.html
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/multiplikatoren/index.html
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/information/links.html

When the Concentration Camp Memorial Site was opened in 1965, an archive and library were also created. Both are open to the public and may be used by appointment.

The archive contains materials of varying types and origins:

* Written documents
* Photos (current count over 6,000)
* Plans (Maps, Blueprints, Layouts)
* Original 3-Dimensional relics
* Phonograms (current count 350)
* Films (current count 1,200)

The argument thus far.

Points are raised which refute the Holocaust Deniers position.
The Holocuast Deniers instead of refuting such points with argument and evidence, just jump to other points, then when refuted, they just jump to other points, etc.
If claims are made about Auschwitz, the deniers then jump to Dachau (where there is no evidence of mass gassings apart from false reports by the US military which have since been refuted).
If cyanide residue is found in buildings the Deniers claim that it was for delousing (which was allegedly what the vast majority of the hydrogen cyanide was used for); if no residue is found in a building then the Deniers claim that the Nazi genocides did not occur.
Zyklon B could not have been used in the "shower heads" and I am not aware of anyone here who makes this claim apart from the Deniers, but this argument is also used to claim that there were no genocides.

And on, and on and on.

Holocaust Denialism is not an historical position; the position that the Nazis did not commit genocides / mass executions is a purely ideological and non historical position which even Holocaust revisionists such as the historian David Irving refutes.

"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."[ David Irving.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41353000/jpg/_41353082_irving-ap203.jpg

The Eichmann Papers.
http://www.codoh.com/irving/irveichgoebb.html

Extracts from David Irving's speech to the Institute for Historical Review 1992

"Eichmann inspected Auschwitz. He went to Auschwitz several times, as he recounts in his memoirs. He describes being met by Rudolf Höss, the commandant, and he describes several grisly scenes. He describes going past an open pit where bodies were being burned, and he says it was an infernal sight, the likes of which he would never forget. He describes how the commandant, Höss, tells him that they are doing these things on Himmler's orders and that it is a sacred task that has been imposed on the SS.
........
He doesn't try to avoid describing what he's seen. He describes the pits in Auschwitz, he describes the crematoria, just the same as Albert Hoffmann. Four or five years ago, while going through the records of the National Archives in Suitland, Maryland, I came across the interrogation report of Albert Hoffmann, who was the deputy Gauleiter of Silesia, the Gau where Auschwitz was situated. I thought he was an unimportant man, because I didn't realize he was in Silesia, but the British, interrogating Hoffmann, asked him if he'd ever visited a concentration camp. Hoffmann's reply was, "Yes, I've visited two concentration camps in my life, one at Dachau in 1936, which was organized, clean, decent and disciplined, and the prisoners were well fed. Then again," he said, "in 1941 (or 1942: I think, in fact, in both years), I visited Auschwitz concentration camp with my Gauleiter, Bracht, and with the Reichsführer SS, Heinrich Himmler."

Hoffmann went on, "Auschwitz was totally different from Dachau. The scenes I saw there beggar description. Brutality on the worst possible scale. I saw prisoners being beaten, I saw cadavers being cremated in the crematorium..."

Now you probably know that I'm a Revisionist to a degree, but I'm not a Revisionist to the extent that I say that there were no murders of Jews. I think we have to accept that there were My Lai-type massacres where SS officers -- the Einsatzkommandos -- did machine-gun hundreds if not thousand of Jews into pits. On the Eastern Front, at Riga, at Minsk, and at other locations, this kind of thing did happen.

Eichmann himself -- and I wasn't surprised to find it in his papers -- actually witnessed this. He went to see one at Minsk, and being a proper SS officer he went right to the front to make sure that everything was being carried out. He got so close, in fact, that he saw with his very own eyes how the victims were being made to go into the pits and stand there waiting to be shot. (We've all heard these descriptions of it, and I've seen some terrible descriptions from sources that I find credible.) He says he saw that one woman was holding a little child in her arms, petrified, and she held the child out to him, and he writes in his memoirs: "I was a parent too, and I instinctively stepped forward as though to take the child. But at that very moment the salvo of shots rang out. Both were killed only a few feet away from me. The child's brains were spattered over my leather greatcoat, and my driver had to clean the mess off."

Lux

disorder2k8

27-10-2010, 07:15 PM

very interesting lucifer, thanks

ladybird

29-10-2010, 03:54 PM

@ luciferhorus

I decline the commonly accepted mainstream denier-newspeak.

You are using nothing else but pc propaganda, thus exposing all your weakness and ignorance
and which side you are on.

1. There are people who believe in the holocaust because they simply believe everything they get told.
They are just not interested in thinking on their own. Ignorants.

2. There are people who believe in parts of the holocaust, this is by far the biggest group.
Most of those are just too lazy and too ignorant to get themselves informed and go deeper
down the rabbit hole.

3. There are people who do not believe in the holocaust because they some day realised that there
are inconsistencies. They became interested and worked their way through the masses of
contradictory statements, conflicting rumours and incompatible opinions and finally - in the best case -
are able to seperate lies from the truth.

4. There are people who know the truth and deny it. Those are the only real deniers according to the
sense of denier, Leugner in German. In fact they are liars.

From my point of view revisionism, non-believing and research must by no means be illegal.

From my point of view the Holocaust Denial Laws are inhumane and racist, because they
deprive parts of mankind of their human right of free speech on the alleged basis of protecting
the feelings of another part of mankind, which claims to be chosen by God.

This is WRONG and INJUST.

Who knows about Nemmersdorf massacre for example?

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&expIds=17259,18167,25980,26637,27113,27182,27284&xhr=t&q=nemmersdorf&cp=5&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=yt_KTNK7IMvLswaqsdGpAQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQsAQwAw&biw=1203&bih=603

An eye for an eye is WRONG!

.

stelios

29-10-2010, 04:17 PM

great just what we needed
yet another Holocaust™ promotion thread
still at least there are many enlightened people here who can seperate the propaganda from the truth

tinyint

29-10-2010, 04:58 PM

great just what we needed
yet another Holocaust™ promotion thread
still at least there are many enlightened people here who can seperate the propaganda from the truth

We should ask the mods to create a commemoration efforts whine sub forum. They could snivel and insult there all day long.

luciferhorus

29-10-2010, 05:04 PM

@ luciferhorus

I decline the commonly accepted mainstream denier-newspeak.

You are using nothing else but pc propaganda,

I have a graduate degree in Religious Studies / History and a post graduate degree in education (PGCE); I am quite familiar with the process of marking student's papers on "history."

You yourself have admitted that you do not have sufficient reading comprehension to read the posts on this forum and that you do not even bother to read posts which refute your claims. I on the other hand go out of my way to read and consider "both sides" of the Holocaust debate and I consider that to be an "objective" method.

Since I am ideologically a Communist, I am not here to "take sides" with regards to either Anglo-American-Israeli State terrorist propaganda, since they are part of the International Dictatorship of Capitalism and their current Capitalist Dictatorship is responsible for the annual holocuast, though poverty and war, of more victims than the entiretly of WW2; however neither will simply accept the non-historical, non scientific Neonazi propaganda which is being pushed on this forums and on many other similar forums. It is an historical matter, not a matter of political ideology.

From my point of view revisionism, non-believing and research must by no means be illegal.

From my point of view the Holocaust Denial Laws are inhumane ......
This is WRONG and INJUST.

Well you keep raising this point with me and I can only assume that this is because of a lack of reading comprehension on your part or because of your admission that you do not read the posts which you respond to.

I entirely oppose the Holocaust Laws as they interfere with the historical process of research, analysis and revisionism, which is a matter for historians, not a matter for governments to legislate. The kind of police state mindset / attitudes which created such laws is entirely Orwellian and a precursor to the criminalisation of persons who do not accept Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorist / narco-terrorist propaganda and who question events such as 9/11, 7/7, and the history of the Imperialist war crimes, assassinations, military coups and other terrorist activities by the militant proponents of the International Dictatorship of Capitalism.

Who knows about Nemmersdorf massacre for example?

The Soviets, the British, the Americans, the Germans, the Japanese, all commited genocide in WW2 and the Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorists / narco-terrrorists continue to do so today, and frankly since the Germans still have over 5000 military personell in Afghanistan, the Germans must also be included in this list of modern terrorists. .

Lux

ladybird

29-10-2010, 05:23 PM

I have a graduate degree in Religious Studies / History and a post graduate degree in education (PGCE); I am quite familiar with the process of marking student's papers on "history."

So how are they made?

You yourself have admitted that you do not have sufficient reading comprehension to read the posts on this forum and that you do not even bother to read posts which refute your claims. I on the other hand go out of my way to read and consider "both sides" of the Holocaust debate and I consider that to be an "objective" method.

1. There is no such thing as "objectivity". There is only truth and lie.

2. I must decline to read pages and pages of copy & paste pc mainstream propaganda.

3. This is because I got extremely allergic and suffer from heavy seizure when doing so -> early childhood holocaust trauma inflicted by 24/7 HOLOCAUST EDUCATION from kindergarten on, as I told you multiple times before.

4. I only started to realise that there is another "side" when I read a book which is prohibited in Germany, but you can find it on the web, "Secret Societies and Their Power in The 20th Century" by Jan van Helsing. Although I felt all of my life that there IS something totally wrong.

Well you keep raising this point with me and I can only assume that this is because of a lack of reading comprehension on your part or because of your admission that you do not read the posts which you respond to.

I entirely oppose the Holocaust Laws as they interfere with the historical process of research, analysis and revisionism, which is a matter for historians, not a matter for governments to legislate. The kind of police state mindset / attitudes which created such laws is entirely Orwellian and a precursor to the criminalisation of persons who do not accept Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorist / narco-terrorist propaganda and who question events such as 9/11, 7/7, and the history of the Imperialist war crimes, assassinations, military coups and other terrorist activities by the militant proponents of the International Dictatorship of Capitalism.

Are you suggesting I should omit to talk about THE INHUMANE AND RACIST HOLOCAUST DENIAL LAWS only
because you admitted that you agree?

The Soviets, the British, the Americans, the Germans, the Japanese, all commited genocide in WW2 and the Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorists / narco-terrrorists continue to do so today, and frankly since the Germans still have over 5000 military personell in Afghanistan, the Germans must also be included in this list of modern terrorists. .

Lux

The FRG LTD army is nothing but a mercenary army of the occupants.

There is no peace treaty with Germany or the German Reich.
The FRG LTD does not have a constitution.

The common German people vehemently opposes the ILLEGAL military intervention of the FRG LTD mercenary army
in Afghanistan!

We know that the soldiers are only protecting the poppy fields, the drug barons and their masters.

Did you realise that you again did not comment on the main contents of my previous post?

luciferhorus

30-10-2010, 07:27 PM

This picture has been proven to be a FAKE long time ago.
The soldier is in fact protecting the woman with the child and other people.
You are spreading lies and hate propaganda.

http://de.metapedia.org/w/images/3/33/F%C3%A4lschung_Bild_2.jpg

http://de.metapedia.org/w/images/8/82/Bildf%C3%A4lschung_Spiegel_aus_JF_5.2.2010.jpg

Shame on you!

.

On further analysis, although I have seen fake and photoshopped photographs from the Holocaust, including the addition of smoking chimneys, the above photo has never been "proven" to be fake. It has simply been subjected to doubt as to who the soldiers are shooting at; on some reconsideration, I don't think that the soldier(s) are "defending" the civillians; they are certainly not running for cover,as the civilians are, and indeed the civillans are moving "away" from the soldier(s), not running behind them for protection.

Lux

From the axis history forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=313533

"The photograph posted by Tavi R has been much discussed in various fora.

He is correct in saying that it is almost always reproduced in a cropped form, showing only the man in a German Order Police uniform aiming his rifle and the cringing woman to his right holding a child.

As I understand it, the photograph was first published by Soviet sources, with the statement that it had been taken from a German prisoner (which is the most probable explanation). It is claimed that the word "Judenaktion" was written on the back of the photograph, but if that is indeed the case, we have no way of knowing for certain who wrote that word.

The full photograph does not resemble a conventional execution scene. It is difficult to determine what the group of three (?) persons on the extreme right are doing. They appear to be taking cover, or ducking to avoid fire. Some digging implements are on the ground next to them.

It might be claimed that the digging implements were present for the purpose of excavating a grave for the bodies of persons being executed. But no grave is visible, and it seems unlikely that a detachment carrying out executions would start shooting the victims until the grave had been prepared.

Two rifles in firing position appear on the extreme left. It is difficult to determine what they are aiming at. Their target does not appear to be either the standing woman or the group of people on the right, although the angle of the shot makes it very difficult to tell.

At the same time, the scene does not appear to show a conventional fire-fight, since the men with the rifles have not taken cover. What appears to be a fallen body lies near the feet of the man aiming the rifle. That might be a person he has just shot, or a person hit by incoming fire.

I think it impossible to be absolutely certain what the photograph is showing. But what is certain is that the reproduction of the photograph in its cropped form is deliberately deceptive."

ladybird

30-10-2010, 07:37 PM

.

This picture was verifiably faked and abused to stir up hatred against Germans
and to divert the focus away from the real villains.

You abused it here on this forum for exactly the same reason!

And now - on top of it all - you have the brass to cook up the same old lie with a new recipe?

You are disgusting!

.

white rabbit

31-10-2010, 04:54 AM

I think it impossible to be absolutely certain what the photograph is showing. But what is certain is that the reproduction of the photograph in its cropped form is deliberately deceptive."[/i]

there are a LOT of deceptive "evidence" in this "holocaust" and in history about war in general

the "holocaust" is a lie, is very clear now for everyone, its a sick justification to make a real holocaust against palestine and to take money from USA to build it, even with USA in economic crisis they still give money to them

boots

31-10-2010, 05:48 AM

there are a LOT of deceptive "evidence" in this "holocaust" and in history about war in general

the "holocaust" is a lie, is very clear now for everyone, its a sick justification to make a real holocaust against palestine and to take money from USA to build it, even with USA in economic crisis they still give money to them

How do you determine that the Holocaust is a lie and what is the deceptive evidence? How is that clear for everyone?

How about some examples of that lie or is it just your speculation.

.

white rabbit

31-10-2010, 07:14 AM

How do you determine that the Holocaust is a lie and what is the deceptive evidence? How is that clear for everyone?

its easy, the evidence tha points the holocaust is false is the lack of evicedence of the holocaust to begin with, there is no data that points to the supposed 6 million jews killed with gas, when hapenned ths holocaust, where is the proof, you can use a simple formula if you dont want to check a lot of data or in doubt

if the MSM pushes it everywhere, and put it in your face all time then you can be sure its a complete lie(specially if enforced by law in certain countries), if they dont push it to much then can be false or true but exagerated in favour of an agenda , if they dont care and dont mention it then it can be true, if they attack it, is true, and you can be sure

never fails

How about some examples of that lie or is it just your speculation.
.

no speculation here, there is no enough gas to effectively kill 6 millions and certainly no the poison you have ben discussing pages behind, no traces of the disposal of the bodies, supresed data from the oficial sources like the counting from red cross should tell you something, no?, there is no evidence to point to specific killing of 6 millios of a certain group with gas, none, nothing, NADA

no convinced is a lie? you can also see the guy who supported hitler with money, not fishy enough?

also the propaganda, movie after movie, book after book, is fishy like the supposed diary of anne frank, you can count at least 4 diferent styles and diferent opinions some of them very mature for the supposed age of the girl like if 4 diferent persons wrote that supposed diary of a little girls from the 40`s, where is the diary of a little japanese girl? a diary of a palestine girl? or what about the diary of a german girl suffering famine? nothing? nada?

no surprise :rolleyes:

there where inocent people who died back then, jews, christians(more deaths than any group), gipsies, germans, rusians, americans, french, etc but certainly no 6 million jews died by gas and certainly that is not an holocaust, all the inocent people who died(40 millions? 50? or more), that is an holocaust because is something terrible that happened to lot of people like what happended in comunist soviet union, china and what is happening in palestine

you dont believe or dont want to believe what I said, and what all evidence points to?.... its ok I know you wont "belive it", you are not here searching truth after all, and you didnt ask me because you where curious, most people here knows that from your past coments :)

luciferhorus

31-10-2010, 07:39 AM

.

This picture was verifiably faked and abused to stir up hatred against Germans
and to divert the focus away from the real villains.

Then provide evidence that it was a fake. Contradiction is a poor substitute for argument and evidence.

"Eyewitness descriptions of shootings by German SS and police units describe naked victims being herded into prepared pits where they are forced to lie down and be shot. Other descriptions, and also genuine photographic evidence, have the victims being lined up at the edge of a pit, and then shot by a firing squad.

Nothing in this photograph resembles those descriptions, or other photographic evidence. The civilians are not naked. There is no pit for the bodies. The whole scene seems fairly chaotic, unlike the usual situation, where brutal control over the victims was exerted in order to keep the whole process running smoothly.

It is possible that the photograph shows a small, ad hoc shooting of a small number of persons, without the usual preparations. But the upshot is that we cannot be sure................

As I understand it, the photograph was first published by Soviet sources, with the statement that it had been taken from a German prisoner (which is the most probable explanation). It is claimed that the word "Judenaktion" was written on the back of the photograph, but if that is indeed the case, we have no way of knowing for certain who wrote that word
" http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=313533

I think that the most we can say about the photo is that we "cannot be certain" of the details of the event depicted.

its easy, the evidence tha points the holocaust is false is the lack of evicedence of the holocaust to begin with, there is no data that points to the supposed 6 million jews killed with gas, when hapenned ths holocaust, where is the proof, you can use a simple formula if you dont want to check a lot of data or in doubt

This is essentially a straw man argument (you are inventing a position which your opponent does not hold, which is a product of your imagination and you are then attacking your own fabricated argument which you yourself have created). I don't know of any historian who claims that 6 million Jewish people were "gassed" by the Nazis; the means of genocide were various, including shooting, starvation, various types of exposure (freezing to death), forced marching, drowning, lethal injection (as in the "Aktion T 4," euthanasia program), hanging, disease which spread rather quickly through camps of hungry imaciated prisioners and various other types of killings; gassing with CO2 (suffocation with exhaust fumes) and hydrogen cyanide were only "two" of the methods which the Nazis used.

if they attack it, is true, and you can be sure

never fails

Ah. OK. So make a false statement. Someone "attacks (criticises)" you for it and claims that your statement is false, and on this basis, you deduce that it must be true. The sheer lack of intelligence of the Holocaust conspiracy Denialists never ceases to amaze me. It is as if the gods have given birth to a race of "untermenschen (under men / sumhumans)" as Nazi apologists; it gives a whole new meaning to the term "Lebensunwertes Leben (life unworthy of life)."

http://learnsomethingnewtoday.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/inbreeding.jpg

no speculation here, there is no enough gas to effectively kill 6 millions

It is not alleged by historians that 6 million people were killed by gas. The two main types of gas which were used were "exhaust fumes" form petrol and deisel engines and "hydrogen cyanide." Perhaps you can provide evidence that the Nazis could not produce enough exhaust fumes or "hydrogen cyanide;" the latter of which was, and still is produced on an industrial scale and has numerous applications for various purposes (see Hydrogen cyanide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

and certainly no the poison you have ben discussing pages behind,

Shall we just take your word for this?

no traces of the disposal of the bodies,

Even most Holocaust Deniers don't dispute that there were crematoriums which disposed of the bodies; they simply claim that the deaths were due to starvation (which is still genocide) and disease which spread through the crowded and rather filthy camps (which is still genocide, if you round up people into filthy prision camps).

supresed data from the oficial sources like the counting from red cross should tell you something, no?,

This has already been dealt with here. The Red Cross were not able to access all areas in Nazi Germany. Similarly today in Iraq, we cannot access all Iraqi police stations and photograph all torture victims.

also the propaganda, movie after movie, book after book, is fishy like the supposed diary of anne frank, you can count at least 4 diferent styles and diferent opinions some of them very mature for the supposed age of the girl like if 4 diferent persons wrote that supposed diary of a little girls from the 40`s,

The "Diary of Anne Frank" was subject to post war editing to prepare the diary for publication; this is not disputed. There are similarly numerous biographies which litter the bookshops of various celebrities who are themselves barely literate and who employed a "ghost writer" to write their biographies and yet the author of the biography is credited as the celebrity; it does not mean that those biographies are fraudulent. The "Diary of Anne" Frank does not anyway deal with the concentration camps; it simply deals with life in occupied Holland and there is nothing I know of in the diary which is in any way contrary to the historical situation in Nazi occupied Holland.

where is the diary of a little japanese girl?

The Japanese Imperialists also committed genocide and also mass gang rape in WW2, particularly in Korea and China; however there does not appear to be a movement of historical denialists alleging that the Japanese did "not" commit genocide; "genocide denial" is a particular specialist of both Nazi apologists and Anglo-American state terrorist collaborators.

Lux

boots

31-10-2010, 07:58 AM

its easy, the evidence tha points the holocaust is false is the lack of evicedence of the holocaust to begin with, there is no data that points to the supposed 6 million jews killed with gas, when hapenned ths holocaust, where is the proof, you can use a simple formula if you dont want to check a lot of data or in doubt

So you have no evidence.
Your lack of research in saying " 6 million killed by gas" is a misrepresentation. Not all were killed with Zyklon B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boots http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059356309#post1059356309)
Interesting.

The Leuchter Report:
There were not enough Jews in Europe to
account for the number of 6 million victims.

Claim:

There were not enough Jews in Europe to account for the number of 6 million victims .

This claim is ridiculous, as attested to by all population statistics of that time, including the numbers of Jews appearing in many original Nazi documents... for instance:
Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/places/germany/wannsee/wannsee-english.html), January 20 1942, regarding the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953., Vol. XIII, p. 210]
II. At the beginning of the meeting the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich, reported his appointment by the Reich Marshal [Goering] to service as Commissioner for the preparation of the Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem....
In the course of this final solution of the European Jewish Problem, approximately 11 million Jews are involved. They are distributed among individual countries as follows:

A. Original Reich Territory [Altreich] 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
Government General [Nazi occupied Poland] 2,284,000
The Netherlands 160,800
Rumania, including Bessarabia 342,000

Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000 ..

White Russia, excluding Bialystok 446,484
[Many countries deleted for brevity]

TOTAL over 11,000,000

Under proper direction the Jews should now in the course of the Final Solution be brought to the East in a suitable way for use as labor. In big labor gangs, with separation of the sexes, the Jews capable of work are brought to these areas and employed in road building, in which task undoubtedly a great part will fall out through natural diminution.

The remnant that finally is able to survive all this - since this is undoubtedly the part with the strongest resistance - must be treated accordingly since these people, representing a natural selection, are to be regarded as the germ cell of a new Jewish development. (See the experience of history).
In the program of the practical execution of the Final Solution, Europe is combed through from the West to the East.
The claims often made by Holocaust deniers about emigration of Jews after the war are preposterous. For instance, there were 370,000 Jews in Palestine in 1937, and 600,000 in 1948. The numbers arrived at by the Anglo-American committee for studying the Holocaust are the following:
(Conclusions of the Anglo-American committee for studying the Nazi genocide inflicted on the Jews of Europe, with exact breakdown, country by country.)

Numbers of missing Jews (post-war minus pre-war):

Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,0001
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Jugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)

Total number of Jews that were exterminated 5,721,500

Originally Posted by boots http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059356321#post1059356321)

The World Almanac Gambit.

Editor: Ken McVay
Authors: Annie Alpert, John Morris (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.py?people//m/morris.john/world-almanac) In August of 1997, an author identifying himself as Bob Djurdjevic, the founder of "Truth in Media," included the following paragraph in a letter to The Arizona Republic: "The World Almanac for 1940 gives the world's Jewish population as 15,319,359. The World Almanac for 1949 puts the number of Jews in the world at 15,713,638."If the World Almanac figures are correct, "the world's Jewish population did not decrease in the war decade, but showed a small increase."
The 1949 figure offered by Mr. Djurdjevic was, as you're about to see, an outright lie, as was the conclusion drawn.

When citing the World Almanac as a source for data "proving" that there was no Jewish population decline during World War II, Holocaust deniers are simply propagating one of the standard denier myths that has recurred regularly for more than a decade.

The problem has nothing whatever to do with rates of population increase or anything like that. It has to do with how frequently the World Almanac's sources had access to fresh estimates of religious populations.

Whoever first started propagating World Almanac figures neglected to mention that all figures before
1949 were from 1938 estimates. Since the year of estimate is given at the top of the chart it is difficult to believe that the originator did not intentionally mean to deceive by neglecting this key piece of information.
I have posted the following correction several times: The University of Alberta library has the World Almanac issues for the pertinent period for 1941, 1944, 1947, 1948, and 1949. The figures listed for total world Jewish population are as follows:
1941 15,748,091
1944 15,192,089
1947 15,688,259
1948 15,688,259
1949 11,266,600
Now you may be wondering what happened to all those Jews in 1948-49. No fresh estimates were made between 1938 and 1947. The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given, and the numbers are listed differently than in other years. In 1944, the numbers are given as a part of a list of various world religions rather than standing on their own with a country-by-country breakdown as in the other years.
Only in 1949 are postwar estimates employed, the figures given are for estimates made in 1948. A year or two lag seems to be common for various other population estimates given by the World Almanac.
The difference between the 1938 and 1948 figures is thus 4,481,491.
In 1949, however, the World Almanac gives a revised 1939 population of 16,643,120 giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Where the extra population between 1938 and 1939 came from is not cited, though one might speculate that it was based upon the Nazi estimates made in 1942 for the Wannsee Conference.
Despite the apparent exactness of the numbers listed, the World Almanac warns that all numbers listed are estimates.
The World Almanac estimates figured prominently in another instance of the Gambit when the New York Times published inflated estimates of the post-war Jewish population in 1948, and early deniers used the story to dismiss claims of 6 million Jewish deaths. i
The Times later explained that their data had come from the 1948 World Almanac in this letter to Morris Kominsky from the author of the piece: "Dear Mr. Kominsky,
"Thank you for your letter of inquiry of January 6.
"The world Jewish population figures printed in this
story came from the 1948 edition of the World Almanac.
Later we checked it with the American Jewish Committee and
other sources and said in the correction, as I noted to you
in my previous letter, that the authorities agree that
Hitler's wholesale massacre of Jews during the war reduced
the Jewish population to perhaps 12 million today (2/26/48).
"If Mr. Freedman met with me I do not remember it.
The problem is of course, that you are talking about events
that took place 19 years ago. I see hundreds of people per
year, many of them only for a few minutes so I could not
swear that I did not see Mr. Freedman but if I did it made
no impression either upon me or upon my assistant.
"I do not know what Mr. Freedman means by examination
of documents but to my knowledge we had no particular
documents bearing on the issue in question.
"I hope this answers your questions; if there is
anything else you wish to know please do not hesitate to
write again.
"Sincerely, Hanson W. Baldwin (Military Editor)" For the complete story, see this article from Annie Alpert (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.py?people//f/freedman.benjamin/background-data), posted in 1996.

if the MSM pushes it everywhere, and put it in your face all time then you can be sure its a complete lie(specially if enforced by law in certain countries), if they dont push it to much then can be true but exagerated if they supress info then is true

never fails

Historians academics and chemist who dont have an agenda and are not linked to MSM newspapers etc have studied this for 65 years.

no speculation here, there is no enough gas to effectively kill 6 millions and certainly no the poison you have ben discussing pages behind, no traces of the disposal of the bodies, supresed data from the oficial sources like the counting form red cross, there is no evidence to pint to specific killing of 6 millios of a certain group with gas, no, nothing, NADA, not enough for you?

There is evidence from survivors and the Nazis themselves also there is documentation left behind by the Nazis which proves the intention of the Final solution again not all were gassed the main gassing took place in Auschwitz.

Did you read the OP ?

you can also see the guy who are behind hitler money, not fishy enough?

The money that backed the war wasn't the same as the intentions of the Nazi regime to exterminate over 7 million people

also the propaganda movie after movie, book after book, is fishy like the supposed diary of anne frank, you can count at least 4 diferent styles and diferent opinions some of them very mature for the supposed age of the girl like if 4 diferent persons wrote that supposed diary of a little girls from the 40`s, where is the diary of a little japanese girl? a diary of a palestine girl? or what about the diary of a german girl suffering famine? nothing? nada?

no surprise :rolleyes:

Conjecture.

there where inocent people who died back then, jews, christians(more deaths than any group), gipsies, germans, rusians, americans, french, etc but certainly no 6 million jews died by gas and certainly that is not an holocaust, all the inocent people who died(40 millions? 50? or more), that is an holocaust because is something terrible that happened to lot of people like what happended in comunist soviet union, china and what is happening in palestine

you dont believe or dont want to believe what I said, and what all evidence points to?.... ok :)

70 million

I dont think you understand the meaning of the term Holocaust?

It has been proven that 5.7 million Jews died in death camps set up by the Nazis.

More should focus on the Roma's and the disabled and mentally disabled people that the Nazi's exterminated.

Nazi Germany was a racist backed Ideology which had all the hallmarks of the NWO. Eugenics being one of them.

.

ladybird

31-10-2010, 08:48 AM

Then provide evidence that it was a fake.

Everybody can see it with his own eyes in my previous posts.

In fact I start to realise, that "disgusting" was not the right word.
Too weak.

.

stelios

31-10-2010, 05:42 PM

Historians are academics who seek facts, not Zionist plants.

some are zionists
they get all the media coverage
because over 90% of the media is zionist controlled

Yes the DI forum is good in that it allows the expression of thought. It's a microcosm of the macrocosm. Unfortunately the foolhearty will see what the uninformed write and believe it to be true.

which is exactly why we need to counter the lies

luciferhorus

01-11-2010, 01:50 AM

some are zionists
they get all the media coverage
because over 90% of the media is zionist controlled

On Mass Media Propaganda and the Internet Revolution

Lucifer 2010.

It does seem to be the case that the establishment media are almost universally Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorist collaborators.

http://adscam.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/2008/01/16/fuck_off.jpg

What are the alternatives?

http://www.beppegrillo.it/immagini/immagini/Putin_Stalin.jpg

RTV: The 24 hour Russian government news channel in English.

Well for those of us in Europe with cable or satellite, there is also RTV. Certainly it is an anti-Zionist channel, but then what is it "pro?" It seems to me also to be a propaganda channel of the Putin and Dmitry Medvedev personality cults. There is about as much chance of listening to a program critical of Putin, Medvedev and Russian Capitalism on RTV as there is of the head of the Church of England (who is also head of state) giving all her money to the poor, abandoning monetarism and ceasing to wear shoes or possess property.

Press TV: The 24 hour Iranian State news channel in English

http://www.abna.ir/a/uploads/76/1/76102.jpg

This is probably IMO the best of the alternative 24 hour news channels. I am currently watching it as I write as they are airing a documentary on the effects of bombing and shelling Iraq and Afghanistan with nuclear weapons (mostly but not exclusively, depleted uranium). It is evangelically and militantly opposed to Anglo-American-State terrorism and has in the past aired documentaries on the New York 9/11 and London 7/7 bombings which accuse the Anglo-American state terrorists of such actions. However it is also a propaganda channel for the personality cults of their current president Rafsanjani and the "Leader of the Islamic Revolution" Imam Seyed Ali Khamenei.

Al Jazeera (the 24 hour News channel of the Emir of Quatar)

http://merryabla64.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/abughraibleash-lynndie-england.jpg

Although financed by the the Emir of Qatar, it's news' reports thankfully have almost nothing to do with the domestic news of the tiny state of Quatar. Among the News channels of the world it is probably the most popular and most widely watched of the news channels which oppose Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorism.

It is however "conservative" and "diplomatic" when it comes to Islamic tyrannies such as Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc., though the News channel has recently been thrown out of the Islamic dictatorship (monarchy) of Morocco, and the head of Al Jazeera's bureau in Rabat has been charged with with "broadcasting false information and conspiracy," over news reports on anti-Moroccan government demonstrations. However "Morocco has severed diplomatic relations with Iran, accusing the Iranian diplomatic mission in Rabat of seeking to spread Shia Islam in the predominantly Sunni Muslim kingdom." http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2009/03/2009370303221419.html

CCTV News: 24 hour news channel of the People's Republic of China

http://www.puppetgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/abughraib_mudchrist.jpg

While CCTV certainly to a degree is pro-Iranian, pro-Cuban and opposed to Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorism, though certainly not in any radical way; in fact it is probably the most diplomatic of the alternative news channels. it is also a propaganda network for the Chinese government.

Edge Media: a case in point.

We also had Edge Media for a while broadcasting throughout Europe, which aired documentaries b David Icke, Alex Jones and Amy Goodman's anti-Capitalist, anti-war, anto-Zionist, "Democracy Now." Edge Media simply stopped broadcasting due to their inability to attract advertising revenue or major financing.

http://cdn.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2007/07/murdoch.jpg
Above: Rupert Murdoch.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/11/03/gal_villain_22_carver.jpg
Above: The bad guy, Elliot "Rupert Murdoch" Carver, who runs a billion dollar media empire that makes its money creating and exploiting conflict around the world, in the 1997 James Bond film, Tomorrow Never Dies..

The problem with the "Mass Media" is not simply that it is pro-Putin or pro-Zionist or pro-Islamic, but that mass broadcasting is expensive and requires sponsorship or advertising revenue. The fact that virtually all of the mass media in Western Capitalism is pro-Anglo-American-Israeli-state-terrorism, is simply due to the nature of Capitalism, since advertising revenues can hardly be expected to pour in from Capitalist corporations for an anti-Capitalist channel which exposes and opposes the International dictatorship of Capitalism.

The Internet: the apotheosis of the communications revolution. The Free Press.

Fortunately we still have the Internet. Nobody really has much of an advantage over anyone else here, where alternative, independent documentaries on web video and web sites can become more popular and more widely read than regional and national news channels and newspapers.
If you google New York 9/11 or London 7/7 the revisionist sites appear on the front page and the BBC, FOX News and other Capitalist "mass media" are entirely marginalised despite their multi-million dollar budgets. In fact I often notice links to this David Icke discussion forum on the front page of Google; here there is not simply a one page news article or analysis of a subject; there are endless debates which are continually being added to and threads which contain 100's of posts. A professional or amateur promoter of state terrorist propaganda simply has not advantage in the arena of Internet debate.

We are the global mass media.

"We" who debate these issues in the sky, speak to all peoples and nations as the lightening flashes from the east to the west. "We" are the mass media.

http://www.capveterans.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fuck_the_troops.jpg

Lux

Words are Weapons. Revolutionary Propaganda is the first stage of Revolutionary War.
_________________

"We must carry the war into every corner the enemy happens to carry it: to his home, to his centers of entertainment; a total war. It is necessary to prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment outside his barracks or even inside; we must attack him wherever he may be, make him feel like a cornered beast wherever he may move........."

"While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is no other than the United States of America..........."

"The great lesson of the guerrillas' invincibility is taking hold among the masses of the dispossessed. The galvanization of the national spirit; the preparation for more difficult tasks, for resistance to more violent repression. Hate as a factor in the struggle, intransigent hatred for the enemy that takes one beyond the natural limitations of a human being and converts one into an effective, violent, selective, cold killing machine. Our soldiers must be like that; a people without hate cannot triumph over a brutal enemy."
Che Guevara.

stelios

03-11-2010, 03:22 AM

i watch RT on Sky channel 512

boots

04-04-2011, 10:42 PM

I'm posting this as a new thread in response to The Auschwitz 'Gas Chamber' Illusion thread, since it is quite comprehensive and I'd rather it didn't get lost in endless pages of rants. There are quite a number of Holocaust FAQ's on the Internet which respond to Holocaust Revisionism of the ilk of the nizkor.org response below.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/85/Conspiracy-film.jpg/200px-Conspiracy-film.jpg

The minutes of the 1942 Wannsee Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference) were made into the movie 'Conspiracy;' the official minutes should be read in conjuntion with Eichmann's testimony during his trial in Israel. Eichmann is often referred to as the 'Architect' of the Holocaust.

"There were, however, significant omissions in the minutes. These were not fully elucidated until the interrogation and trial of Eichmann in Israel in 1962. Eichmann told his questioners that towards the end of the meeting cognac was served, and that after that the conversation became less restrained.[32] "The gentlemen were standing together, or sitting together", he said, "and were discussing the subject quite bluntly, quite differently from the language which I had to use later in the record. During the conversation they minced no words about it at all...they spoke about methods of killing, about liquidation, about extermination".

...At the conclusion of the meeting Heydrich gave Eichmann firm instructions about what was to appear in the minutes. They were not to be verbatim: Eichmann would "clean them up" so that nothing too explicit appeared in them. He said at his trial: "How shall I put it—certain over-plain talk and jargon expressions had to be rendered into office language by me".

As a result, the last twenty minutes of the meeting, in which, as Eichmann recalled, words like "liquidation" and "extermination" were freely used, were summed up in one bland sentence: "In conclusion the different types of possible solutions were discussed". Thus the minutes must be read in conjunction with Eichmann's testimony to get as near as is possible to a full account of what took place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

Even in the official German transcript which was heavily censored, Reinhard Heydrich who was hosting the meeting made the ultimate fate intended for Jewish evacuees clear:

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes. The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as the seed of a new Jewish revival
Ibid.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2007/04/02/holocaust00.jpg

The evidence for the Holocaust can be summed up in the following way:

1: Written documents—hundreds of thousands of letters, memos, blueprints, orders, bills, speeches, articles, memoirs, and confessions.

2: Eyewitness testimony—accounts from survivors, Jewish Sonderkommandos (who were forced to help load bodies from the gas chambers into the crematoria in exchange for the promise of survival), SS guards, commandants, local townspeople, and even high-ranking Nazis who spoke openly about the mass murder of the Jews

3: Photographs—including official military and press photographs, civilian photographs, secret photographs taken by survivors, aerial photographs, German and Allied film footage, unofficial photographs taken by the German military.

4: The camps themselves—concentration camps, work camps, and extermination camps that still exist in varying degrees of originality and reconstruction

5: Inferential evidence—population demographics, reconstructed from the pre-World War II era; if six million Jews were not killed, what happened to them all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41353000/jpg/_41353082_irving-ap203.jpg
Abive: David Irving

Even one of the most famous Holocaust Revisionists, the historican David Irving who was prosectuted in Austria for denying the holocaust has this to say:

After he was arrested, Irving claimed in his plea that he changed his opinions on the Holocaust, "I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."[

Holocaust revisionists often point to evidence which has been altered or manufactured and post-war testimonies which were extracted from Nazis under torture and which they later retracted, and in this respect it is indisputable that 'some' evidence was altered, manufactured or extracted by torture, but never the less, this does not constitute a case for the Holocaust not having occurred. It is simply not credible to disbelieve the testimonies of every survivor of the concentration camps and the numerous post-war testimonies of the Nazis themselves.

http://www.rlsmart.net/uploads/46/7202/rcast/holocaust_1.jpg

Hitler was quite clear about the matter anyway:

"Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe." January 30, 1939 speech to the Reichstag,

Holocaust Denialism II: Who financed the Nazis?

One of the great cover-ups which is often ignored is the fact that International Capital financed the Nazis; there was no economic miracle in Germany; it was paid for by American bankers whose institutions today still rule the world.

http://ecosyn.us/Bush-Hitler/Blogspot/industrialists/Wall_Street_And_The_Rise_of_Hitler.jpg

The entire text of Sutton's classic work can be read online

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

See also the German Marxist historian Lenni Brenner's Zionism in the Age of the Dictators: A Reappraisal (1983) on collaboration between the Nazis and the Zionists.

http://kildare.ie/kpsc/occupationinfo/images/main/sidelinks/books/zionismdictators.jpg

Full text of Zionism in the Age of the Dictators: A Reappraisal on:
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner

See also: George Bush:The Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, particularly chapter two which goes into the American Financing of the Nazis by the Harriman / Bush crime families.

http://www.tarpley.net/bcover05.gif

Full text on:

http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm

Lucifer
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
For Apocalyptic War and World Communist Revolution
No mercy on they who deserve none.
_________________

HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's Guide (Extract)

From: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/auschwitz/part01/

Gas Chambers

"There was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see,
they are bringing children now'. They opened the door, threw
the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry.
A member of the SS climbed on the roof. The people went on
crying for about ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the
doors. Everything was in disorder and contorted. Heat was
given off. the bodies were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to
a ditch. The next batch were already undressing in the huts.
After that I didn't look at my wife for four weeks." (From the
testimony of SS private Boeck (Langbein, quoted in Pressac, 181))

2.1 Krema I - The Experimental Gas Chamber

David Cole has produced a videotape which filmed the director of the
Auschwitz State Museum apparently admitting that the gas-chamber
known as "Krema I" was constructed after the war ended, on the direct
order of Stalin. In a letter to Nizkor's Ken McVay, Dr. Piper explicitly
denies making any such statement. Foner (Foner, Samuel P. "Major
Historical Fact Uncovered" SPOTLIGHT Vol. XIX, Number 2, January 11,
1993) tells us:

The videotape on which Piper makes his revelations was taken in
mid-1992 by a young Jewish investigator, David Cole. It has
just been released, on January 1, 1993, although Cole announced
his project at the 11th International Revisionist Conference at
Irvine, California last October.

The small gas chamber of Krema I was used for gassing for a short
time, and then converted into an air-raid shelter; after the war,
it was reconstructed to look as it did when it was used for
gassing, as Dr. Piper notes in his letter of response to the Cole
video. The text of Piper's letter is a bit stilted, as Polish is
his native language, but his intent, and the facts, are quite
clear:

Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
unknown fact the Nazis adapted the crematorium in question
in which the gas chamber were located for air-raid shelter,
the fact allegedly unknown even for Museum guides. It is
un truth. See enclosed copies of pages from the books
which constitute the fundamental reading for Auschwitz
guides. In book by T-an Sehn "Concentrat Camp
Ogwiqcim-Brzezinka (Auschwitz-Birkenau)Warsaw 1957, You may
read on the page 152-"In May 1944 the old Crematorium I in
the base camp was adapted for use as an air raid shelter.

The Fact is also confirmed in the book by Jean Claude
Pressac "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
chambers, published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New
York 1989(515 Madison Avenue. On the page 157 you may
read: "With part of the building converted to an air raid
shelter, this is the state in which the SS abandoned
Krematorium I in January 1945" Repeating what Pressac had
written I told what was the nature of the adaptation works
carried out by the Nazis and what one had to do to remove
those changes in order to regain the previous appearance.

They are all "Pipers revelations." In spite of the fact
that such secondary restoration works had to be done there
is an undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question
is housed in the same building which has been existed from
prewar times till now.

(get pub/people/p/piper.franciszec/press/daily.texan.1093
for the entire letter from Dr. Piper to the Daily Texan
regarding the Cole video; Dr. Piper was never the director
of the Auschwitz State Museum.)

Breitman offers the following as background information to the
development of Zyklon B as a killing device, and (more specifically)
to the early use to which Block 11 was put:

Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet commissars and
other POW's who were subject to liquidation. Hoess's men had
shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but on September 3
Hoess's enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmfuehrer Fritsch
thought of an expedient new method based on the camp's own
experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army
barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had
previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and
Stabenow to get rid of them. Two experts had fumigated
particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a
crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous when
exposed to the air. (Hoess, "Commandant of Auschwitz," 175.
Interrogation of Hoess, 14 May 1946, NA RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)

On September 3 Fritsch decided to experiment. First he crammed
five or six hundred Russians and another 250 sick prisoners from
the camp hospital into an underground detention cell. Then the
windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas masks
opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like blue
chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of poison
gas. After they left, the doors were sealed.(Hoess, Commandant
at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer, "Auschwitz," in
Jaeckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Hoess
wrote later that death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what
he was told. But he was not present to witness the event; he
was away on a business trip. Other sources indicate that even
the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had to
release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died.
When Hoess returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful
experiment. On Eichmann's next visit to Auschwitz, Hoess told
him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to
Hoess, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant
farmstead for extermination.(Hoess, Commandant, 175. From the
History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)

SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad described a gassing in Krema I while
giving testimony (Museum, 176):

".... The `disinfectors' were at work. One of them was
SS-Unterscharfuehrer Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War
Merit. With a chisel and a hammer they opened a few
innocuously looking tins which bore the inscription `Cyclon, to
be used against vermin. Attention, poison! to be opened by
trained personnel only!'. The tins were filled to the brim
with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after opening
the tins, their contents were thrown into the holes which were
then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the
driver of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium.
The driver started the motor and its deafening noise was louder
than the death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being
gassed to death."

Mu"llers eyewitness account of gassings in Krema I, in April, 1942, is
recounted in Hilberg's "The Destruction of the European Jews,":

The Auschwitz procedure evolved in stages. In April 1942,
Slovak Jews were gassed in Crematorium I, apparently with their
clothes on. Later, deportees from nearby Sosnowiec were told
to undress in the yard. The victims, faced by the peremptory
order to remove their clothes, men in front of women and women
in front of men, became apprehensive. The SS men, shouting at
them, then drove the naked men, women and children into the gas
chamber.

In The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Jozef Buszko (Jagiellonian
University, Krakow) writes: "The first, relatively small gas chamber was
built in Auschwitz I. Here the experimental gassing using Zyklon B gas
first took place, on September 3, 1941. The victims were 600 Soviet
prisoners of war and 250 other prisoners. After that experiment, the
firm J. A. Topf and Sons received a contract to build much larger,
permanent gas chambers connected with very large crematoria in
Auschwitz-Birkenau, where the mass exterminations were mainly carried
out. Altogether four such installations -- II, III, IV, and V -- were
built in Birkenau." (Encyclopedia, Vol. I, 113)

2.2 Krema II, III, IV, and V - The Birkenau Gas Chambers

Foner continues: "What Piper said, in effect - and on camera - was that
the explosive Leuchter Report was correct: No homicidal gassings took
place in the buildings designated `homicidal gas chambers' at
Auschwitz."

(As to the "Leuchter report", we refer you to the Leuchter Report FAQ,
- http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/.

Foner omits mention of the larger gas chambers of Kremas II-V, in which
over a million people were murdered. Hilberg (Destruction) provides the
following:

At Birkenau, illusion was the rule. It was not always simple
or possible, inasmuch as at least some of the deportees had
observed the sign "Auschwitz" as the train passed through the
railway yards, (Wiesel, 36) or had seen flames belching from
the chimneys, or had smelled the strange, sickening odor of the
crematoria. (Lengyel, 22) Most of them, however, like a group
from Salonika, were funneled through the undressing rooms, were
told to hang their clothes on hooks and remember the number,
and promised food after the shower and work after the food.
The unsuspecting Greek Jews, clutching soap and towels, rushed
into the gas chambers. (Mu"ller, 80-81) Nothing was allowed to
disturb this precarious synchronization. When a Jewish inmate
revealed to newly arrived people what was in store for them, he
was cremated alive. (Mu"ller, 80) Only in the case of victims
who were brought in from nearby ghettos in upper Silesia
(Sosnowiec and Bedzin) and who had had intimations of Auschwitz
was speed alone essential. These people were told to undress
quickly in their "own best interest." (Mu"ller, 69-71)

And finally, consider these remarks, from the SS Doctor Kremer, made
during a hearing held on 18 July, 1947. (Klee, 258)

I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these
groups of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot
say how big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw
them sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they
were wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the
undressing hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded
from the behavior of these women that they had no doubt what
fate awaited them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to
spare them their lives. However, they were herded into the gas
chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I have seen a lot of
terrible things: I had had a lot of experience with dead bodies,
and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had ever seen
before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote on
my diary on 5 September 1942: "The most dreadful of horrors.
Hauptscharfuherer Thilo was right when he said to me today that
this is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world". I
used this image because I could not imagine anything more
disgusting and horrific.
2.3 Zyklon B

Two German firms, Tesch/Stabenow and Degesch, produced Cyclone
B gas after they acquired the patent from Farben. Tesch
supplied two tons a month, and Degesch three quarters of a ton.
The firms that produced the gas already had extensive experience
in fumigation. "In short, this industry used very powerful
gases to exterminate rodents and insects in enclosed spaces;
that it should now have become involved in an operation to kill
off Jews by the hundreds of thousands is not mere accident."
(Hilberg, Commandant, 567) A

After the war the directors of the
firms insisted that they had sold their products for fumigation
purposes and did not know they were being used on humans. But
the prosecutors found letters from Tesch not only offering to
supply the gas crystals but also advising how to use the
ventilating and heating equipment. Hoess testified that the
Tesch directors could not help but know of the use for their
product because they sold him enough to annihilate two million
people. Two Tesch partners were sentenced to death in 1946 and
hanged. The director of Degesch recieved five years in prison."
(Feig) (See also Breitman, 203-204, for a discussion of the early
involvement of Heerdt-Lingler)

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals,
Auschwitz (Klee, 255):

At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner*
ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one
medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to
be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the
same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews,
once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B -- as
already mentioned -- was in granular form, it trickled down over
the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry
out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I
did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as
soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes
there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been
ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead
lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful
sight. * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz

Zyklon-B is a powerful insecticide which serves as a carrier for the
gas Hydrocyanic acid, or HCN. It usually comes in the shape of small
pellets or disks. (See Breitman, 203, for more detail about the
early use of the gas at Auschwitz) HCN is the cause of death
following the application of Zyklon-B. While interacting with iron
and concrete, it creates Hydrocyanic compounds, which Leuchter
admitted were found in the ruins of the gas chamber in Krematoria II.
His finding was confirmed by findings of the Polish government.

HCN is *extremely poisonous* to humans. It is used in execution gas
chambers in the US; the first was built in Arizona in 1920.
Holocaust denial often includes the claim that Germany in the 1940's
could not handle the "technical difficulties" inherent in using HCN
for execution - "difficulties" that were easily solved in 1920.
Moreover, the Germans had a lot of experience with HCN, as it was
extensively used for delousing.

There were two types of gas chambers in Auschwitz: those used for
delousing clothes ("delousing gas chambers") and those used for
killing people on a massive scale ("extermination gas chambers").

The delousing gas chambers were a standard feature, and were left
intact by the SS (the extermination gas chambers were dynamited in an
effort to conceal criminal traces).

Holocaust denial asserts that because more Hydrocyanic compounds were
found in the delousing chambers in Auschwitz than in the ruins of the
extermination gas chambers, mass murder using the gas could not have
taken took place within, because the reverse would be true.

HCN is much more effective on warm-blooded animals, including humans,
than it is on insects. The exposure period (to HCN) is much greater
in delousing operations than in homicidal gassings. This means that
a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people than to get
rid of lice, etc. In delousing, concentrations of up to 16,000 ppm
(parts per million) are sometimes used, and exposure time can be up
to 72 hours; while 300 ppm will kill people in fifteen minutes or so.

Therefore, the HCN in the extermination chambers hardly had time to
form compounds on the walls. While some claim that the gas
would need a lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all
over the chamber, it simply is not true; the gas chambers were not
that large (those in Krematoria II and III were about 210 square
meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from four openings (still
visible in the ruins of the gas chambers). Since the concentration
used was higher than the lethal one, death was very swift.

Furthermore, the delousing chambers are intact while the
extermination chambers were blown up (a .GIF picture of the one of
Krema II is available). Therefore, their walls have been exposed to
the elements for the last 50 years. The ruins of the gas chamber of
Krema II are covered with about 3 feet of water during certain
periods of the year; HCN compounds easily dissolve in these
surroundings. Nonetheless, so much gassing took place that some of
the compound remained.

Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in
contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing
chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings
which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not.
Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in
them.

This fact - that all, or most, of the compounds would vanish during
45 years of exposure - is clearly stated in the report written by the
experts of the Cracow Institute of Forensic Research.

Holocaust deniers once claimed that the gas chamber in Krema I was
left intact, and therefore its walls were not exposed to the
elements. But - as they admit themselves - the gas chamber of Krema
I was used only for a short time, and than it was changed to an
air-raid shelter. After the liberation of the camp, it was
reconstructed to its original shape. This, and the fact that "only"
about 10,000 people were murdered inside it (compared to 350,000 and
400,000 in Kremas II and III) explain why relatively small amounts of
cyanide compounds remain. As for Kremas IV and V, they were
completely destroyed by the SS before the Soviets liberated the camp.

Finally, cyanide compounds were found on the ventilation grills of
the extermination chambers, proving beyond doubt that gassing did
take place inside them.

The claim that it would have been impossible to use the gas chambers
for killing, because they were too close to the furnaces, and the gas
would explode, is often found in Holocaust denial literature, and is
one of the assertions of the Leuchter report.

The concentration of HCN necessary to cause death is nearly 200 times
lower than that which causes explosion. Although the SS used a
concentration higher than the lethal one, it was far below that
causing explosion.

As a reference, one can look at "The Merck Index" and the "CRC
handbook of Chemistry and Physics", or consult any manual dealing
with toxicity and flammability of chemicals. For HCN, a
concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a
few minutes, while the minimal concentration that can result in an
explosion is 56,000 ppm.

Another common claim is that it takes 20 hours to air a room which
has been disinfected with Zyklon-B, and therefore the eyewitness
accounts giving a time of 20-30 minutes from when the gassing started
to when the bodies where carried out is impossible, because the
people carrying out the bodies would perish.

If one disinfects a building in ordinary commercial use, it should
not be reentered within 20 hours. That figure, however, has no
meaning in relation to the extermination chambers, because they were
forcibly ventilated. Fifteen minutes were enough to replace the air.
When ventilation was not used, the Sonderkommando (prisoners used as
forced labor) who took the bodies out had gas masks on. The Germans
had plenty of experience with gas, especially HCN, which was widely
used for delousing. They knew how to work with it without getting
hurt. It is absurd to use the 20 hour figure in this context, which
does not assume forced ventilation and takes a huge safety factor
into account. The SS didn't care much for the safety of the
Sonderkommando who had to enter the gas chambers to take the corpses
out.

Furthermore, what makes ventilation difficult and lengthy is the
presence of rugs, furniture, curtains, etc. Needless to say, these
were not present in the gas chambers - there was just bare concrete,
making ventilation fast and efficient.

If the "20 hours ventilation period" above was true, this would mean
that the corpses of people executed using cyanide gas in US gas
chambers would remain tied to the chair 20 hours after they were
killed...

Another common claim is that the "alleged" extermination chambers are
actually morgues, and that Zyklon-B was used in them as a disinfectant.

This claim stems from the fact that Hydrocyanic compounds were found
on the ventilation grills of the gas chambers in Krematoria II and
III (the chemical analysis was carried out by Dr. Jan Robel of the
Cracow Forensic Institute in December 1945, and was part of the
evidence in the trial of Auschwitz commander Hoess). This proves
that gassing did take place in that chamber. Zyklon-B cannot kill
anaerobic bacteria - it kills only aerobic organisms. That means it
would be useless for disinfecting corpses.

In closing, consider the testimony of SS private Hoeblinger:
(Langbein)

I was detailed to the transport service and I drove the Sanka
[abbreviation for Sanitatskraftwagon/medical truck] which was to
carry the prisoners....

Then we drove to the gas chambers. The medical orderlies
climbed a ladder, they had gas masks up there, and emptied the
cans. I was able to observe the prisoners while they were
undressing. It always proceeded quitely and without them
suspecting anything. It happened very quickly.

Note Pvt. Hoeblinger's mention of gas masks - some Holocaust deniers
insist that the SS-men dropping the gas would be killed by it, which
leads one to speculate about their reading ability.

Finally, the undeniable evidence that the SS ordered Degesch to
remove the indicator odor, mandated under German law, which was added
to the Zyklon B in order to provide a warning to human beings that
the lethal stuff was nearby. I believe this demonstrated clear
criminal intent - the SS would hardly have removed the indicator odor
if they had intended, as the denial set insists, to use the gas only
on insects and corpses... (get pub/orgs/german/farben.ig/farben.001 for
more information about this demand from the SS. Borkin, 123)

Recommended reading:

Barrington,J.H., ed. The Zyklon B Trial: Trial of Bruno Tesch and
Two Others. London, 1948, and Borkin (see Work Cited).

Harmon, Brian. Technical Aspects of the Holocaust: Cyanide, Zyklon-B,
aand Mass Murder. (get pub/camps/auschwitz/cyanide.001), 1994

United Nations War Crimes Commission. Law Reports of Trials of War
Criminals. Vol. 1, London, 1947. See pp. 93-104

3.0 Crematoria

Konnilyn Feig provides an overview of the operation of the
crematoria, and describes the process by which the stoking gangs
sorted bodies into combustability catagories as the result of earlier
experiments by the SS staff to reduce fuel consumption. In this
effort, they had the assistance of the firm of Topf and Sons, who had
built the crematoria.
(http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/auschwitz.01)

In essence, well-nourished corpses were burned with emaciated ones in
order to determine the most efficient combination. Three to four
bodies were burned at a time, and different kinds of coke were used,
then the results were recorded:

Afterwards, all corpses were divided into the above-mentioned
catagories, the criterion being the amount of coke required to
reduce them to ashes. Thus it was decreed that the most
economical and fuel-saving procedure would be to burn the bodies
of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa,
together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had
established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the
dead would continue to burn without any further coke being
required. (Mu"ller, 60-61; Klarsfield, 99-100)

The need for large-scale efficiency, to cope with the astounding
number of corpses produced by the gas chambers, eventually led to the
design and construction of new crematoria, and daily capacity rose
from as low as six hundred forty eight per day (Mu"ller's 1942
figure) to a high of over ten thousand (Hoess, Gricksch), but, as
Feig tells us, the SS eventually had to employ large pyres and pits
to dispose of the mounting pile of corpses:

As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new
installation. ... Eventually the ovens seemed to
fall apart. Crematorium Four failed completely after a short
time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down repeatedly. (TWC,
V:624) (Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found five
manuscripts written by Sonderkommando members before their
deaths. The published manuscripts and documents relate to the
specific process of extermination at Birkenau, and provide
detailed descriptions of the crematoria and gas chambers.)

The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to
handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex
had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five
persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It
took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically
possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or
4,380,000 a year. But the well-constructed crematoria fell far
behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in
1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of
24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities
needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they
again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old
pits in the wood. Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the
chief method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at
one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits
burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities
of boiling human fat over the bodies.

4.0 Compiling Estimates of the Numbers Exterminated

When the extermination camps failed to achieve their objective, the
total extermination of European Jewry, by the end of 1942, Heinrich
Himmler commissioned a statistical report in order to determine what
'progress' had been made.

In January of 1943, Dr. Richard Korherr, a noted statistician who was
outside SS circles, working with Adolf Eichmann and camp commanders,
began compiling reports and figures to present to Himmler. As
Breitman relates,

Korherr's job was complicated by the fact that, even in a report
designed for Himmler, he was not supposed to spell out the facts
in black and white. It was easier to state how many Jews were
still alive than what had happened to the others. To be sure,
Korherr could state that through various means the Jewish
population in the Reich and the Government General had
diminished by 3.1 million between 1933 and 1942. In spite of
his generous use of the term "evacuation," however, which
Himmler seconded, to mislead those who would read the document
in later years, Himmler had to correct Korherr's wording in one
place. Where Korherr had written of the "special treatment" of
the Jews, Himmler had insisted on either the "transportation of
the Jews from the Eastern provinces to the Russian East" or the
"sifting of the Jews through the camps." These were among the
officially approved terms to camouflage the realities of the
Final Solution. (Korherr's reports in NA RG 238, NO-5193 and
5194, Himmler's correction of wording in Brandt to Korherr, 20
April 1943. NA RG 238, NO-5196. Raul Hilberg, The Destruction
of the European Jews {Chicago, 1961}, 2nd expanded ed., 3 vols.
{New York, 1985},I, 322-23, reviews the whole range of Nazi
terms that veiled the realities.) (Breitman, 242)

Note that Himmler was successful in his attempts to camouflage
reality to the degree that present-day Holocaust denial insists that
Jews were simply "relocated to the East," and not exterminated.
Eichmann's interrogation regarding the total number of victims
supports Fleming's figure of about five million killed
(http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/e/eichmann.adolf/eichmann.005),
while figures compiled by Yehuda Bauer, of Yad Vashem, Jerusalem,
are somewhat higher.

Bauer's figures are in the right-most column:

German Reich (boundaries of 1938) 130,000 125,000
Austria 58,000 65,000
Belgium 26,000
Belgium & Luxembourg 24,700
Bulgaria 7,000
Czechoslovakia (boundaries of 1938) 245,000 277,000
France 64,000 83,000
Greece 58,000 65,000
Hungary & Carpatho-Ukraine 300,000 402,000*
Italy 8,000 7,500*
Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia 200,000
Luxembourg 3,000
Netherlands 101,800 106,000
Norway 677 760
Poland (boundaries of 1939) 2,700,000
Polish-Soviet area 4,565,000
Romania (boundaries prior to 1940) 220,000 40,000
USSR (boundaries prior to 1939) 800,000
Yugoslavia 54,000 60,000*
-----------------
4,975,477 5,820,960
* May be underestimated

4.1 How many people died at Auschwitz?

Foner's Spotlight article makes the following assertions regarding the
number of people killed at the camp:

Like most Americans, since his youth Cole had been instructed
in the "irrefutable fact" that homicidal gassings had taken
place at Auschwitz. The number of those so executed - also
declared irrefutable - was 4.1 million.

Then came the Leuchter Report in 1988. This was followed by a
"re-evaluation" of the total deaths at Auschwitz (down to 1.1
million). As a budding historian - and a Jew - Cole was
intrigued.

Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million
"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least). Quietly, because of
revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1
million. No mention of that missing 3 million.

Foner's assertions are simply not true; although it is correct to note
that the Polish Communist government did claim that four million people
were exterminated at Auschwitz, historians (Feig, Reitlinger, Hilberg,
et al.) have never supported that figure. Consider the estimates
provided by Buszko at the end of his article on Auschwitz, which appeared
in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust:

Of the 405,000 registered prisoners, 65,000 survived
Of the 16,000 Soviet POW's, 96 survived
Various estimates suggest 1.6 million were murdered

Buszko's article, and the above estimates, appeared in the 1990 edition
of the Encyclopedia, which clearly puts the lie to Foner's comment that
"anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million ..." figure "previous to
1992..." was "...labeled an anti-Semite..." Buszko is not only a Jewish
historian, but Polish as well.

Leon Poliakov, the author of the well-documented "Harvest of
Hate," which was, we note, first published in _1956_, provides
the following information, which clearly demonstrates that Foner's
contention, cited above, is an outright lie:

After some thirty months of intense activity, the Auschwitz
balance sheet showed close to two million immediate
exterminations (this figure can never be fixed exactly), (8) to
which one must add the deaths of some 300,000 registered
prisoners - Jews for the most part, but not entirely - for whom
the gas chamber was only one of any number of ways by which they
might have perished. (Poliakov, 202)

(8) In his affidavits, Hoess spoke of two and a half million,
'a figure set officially,' he wrote, under the signature of
[Eichmann], in a report to Himmler. This figure has been
accepted by several authors, and it appears in the verdict at
the trial of the major war criminals. However, there is no
reason for accepting without question the statistics attributed
to Eichmann, which may err on either side. Adding the number of
victims to those deported from different countries gives a lower
figure, although we have little data, for example, on the number
of Polish Jews sent to Auschwitz. An approximate figure in the
neighborhood of two million seems closer to the truth."
(Ibid.)

Feig also provides evidence of the false nature of Foner's comment when
she notes that `Hoess testified that the Tesch directors could not help
but know of the use for their product because they sold him enough to
annihilate two million people.' Feig's book was published in 1981.

Bump for the truth.

dusthead

05-04-2011, 01:25 AM

Oh good grief is this still going on?

Haven't you heard? Apparently the gas chambers weren't big enough to kill six million Jews. Except Hitler didn't gas them all in a mass execution and their murders did not occur in one location. DUH!

The figure of six million may be a rough estimate, but it's pretty close.

Why don't these people fuck off and join the Westboro Baptist Church?

luciferhorus

06-04-2011, 08:24 AM

Oh good grief is this still going on?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qUFDMUpk9jE/TMm_ZSKyXEI/AAAAAAAAnHo/johUWx_UT_E/s1600/bush_propaganda.jpg

Well what the Holocaust deniers, Neonazis and Nazi apologists do is repeat all the same nonsense, over and over; it is then refuted and discredited, and then they just go quite for a while, then they start new threads repeating all the same nonsense again, and again and again..... I suspect that the only cure for them is the firing sqaud.

Lux

disorder2k8

06-04-2011, 09:18 AM

repetition is how people learn anyway, that's why in school you never got told sums and stuff only once;) DUH!

luciferhorus

06-04-2011, 11:28 AM

repetition is how people learn anyway, that's why in school you never got told sums and stuff only once;) DUH!

There is a difference between holocaust denilialsm and mathematics.

The same old, same old Holocaust Denial nonsense gets copied and pasted into this forum, it get's refuted, and then it just gets reposted again in a new thread.

If one is doing "Holocaust Studies" as a serious academic study, then it is important to consider both the positions of the Holocaust Denialists and positions of the armies of historians and academics who have researched the matter and who have responded to the Holocaust Denialists; however the Holocaust Denialists do not have this ability; if a Holocaust Denialist posts something on a website, for the brainless idiots here, it must be true. If there was sufficient evidence that the Nazis never committed genocide, I am quite sure that every history department at every university would be promoting that view, but rather such a perspective is considered to be ahistorical.

Lux

"I said that then (that the Holocaust did not occur) based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews." David Irving (who "was" perhaps the world's most infamous ex-Holocaust Denier)

disorder2k8

06-04-2011, 12:36 PM

There is a difference between holocaust denilialsm and mathematics.

The same old, same old Holocaust Denial nonsense gets copied and pasted into this forum, it get's refuted, and then it just gets reposted again in a new thread.

If one is doing "Holocaust Studies" as a serious academic study, then it is important to consider both the positions of the Holocaust Denialists and positions of the armies of historians and academics who have researched the matter and who have responded to the Holocaust Denialists; however the Holocaust Denialists do not have this ability; if a Holocaust Denialist posts something on a website, for the brainless idiots here, it must be true. If there was sufficient evidence that the Nazis never committed genocide, I am quite sure that every history department at every university would be promoting that view, but rather such a perspective is considered to be ahistorical.

Lux

"I said that then (that the Holocaust did not occur) based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews." David Irving (who "was" perhaps the world's most infamous ex-Holocaust Denier)

how many months/years have you spent reading up on this stuff?

eternal_spirit

06-04-2011, 12:45 PM

MASS EXTERMINATION BY GAS CHAMBERS—HOW THE JEWS SAY IT WAS DONE
At this point it might be well to refresh our memories of what the promoters of the ‘Holocaust’ legend claim, for it is only when we bear in mind the essential details of their account that we can appreciate the enormous importance of Leuchter’s evidence:

They claim that many hundreds of Jews [and others—but mostly Jews] were crammed naked into gas chambers. Once inside and the door shut, a quantity of Zyklon B [chalk pellets containing hydrocyanic acid which give off lethal cyanide gas when exposed to the air] was tipped inside through a roof hatch. After an hour or so the door of the gas chamber would be opened and the bodies dragged out. The mouths of the corpses were immediately searched for gold fillings and extractions performed. Other orifices were also searched for hidden valuables. This work was carried out by camp inmates under the immediate supervision of their SS guards. Neither the inmates nor the SS men wore any breathing apparatus or any other kind of protective clothing; indeed, the guards often callously smoked and ate during the gruesome process. Thereafter, the corpses would be sent to the crematoria where they would be reduced to ashes in conventional coke-fired cremation ovens. On days that the ovens were too busy to cope with the workload, pits would be dug, corpses thrown in and incinerated. This process continued 24-hours a day for a period of years. In the case of Birkenau, in the Auschwitz complex of camps, this ‘mass production’ method was supposed to have sustained an extermination/incineration rate of 1,000 an hour—24,000 a day.

Even before we turn to the detail of Leuchter’s evidence to the Canadian Court, the preposterous impudence of the Jewish ‘Holocaust’ story must be self-evident to those who can perform a little simple arithmetic: If Birkenau-Auschwitz exterminated 1,000 Jews an hour for a year that would result in 8,760,000 Jewish dead. [1,000 x 24 x 365]. As that “death factory” was supposed to be functional for about four years, we arrive at a figure of 35,040,000!

Suppose we allow for just a little Levantine exaggeration, and cut the projected Birkenau-Auschwitz figure by 75%, that still leaves a total of 8,760,000. That number is nearly half the claimed Jewish population of the entire world in 1938! And let us not forget that gas chambers at other “Death Camps”—Treblinka, Chelmno, Sobibor, etc., were also supposed to have accounted for “millions” of Jews.

WHAT FRED LEUCHTER’S EVIDENCE REVEALED
Fred Leuchter explained to the Court that the technology of execution gas chambers employing cyanide gas had been fully developed in the United States by the early 1920s. Literature concerning this technology circulated the globe thereafter and all of the relevant technical information would have been available to the Germans. In particular, they would have been aware:
A. That cyanide gas is so dangerous that if it is not to injure or kill those operating the gas chamber as well as the condemned person, the chamber must be specially constructed to be airtight and, specifically, the entry door must be gasketted.
B. Cyanide gas is persistent, that is, it clings in corners and holes—and in hair, in body folds and orifices for many hours after it has been released. Hence, after the condemned person has died it is necessary to have a ventilation system which can expel as much of the gas as possible from the chamber to a height where the gas can diffuse in the air without posing any danger to persons in the vicinity.

In the interests of safety, the body should be left in the ventilated chamber for 24 hours before the gasketted door is opened. Only staff wearing breathing apparatus and protective clothing should be in the room in which the gas chamber is situated when the door is opened. Thereafter, staff should hose down the body and the entire chamber to disperse the final, potentially fatal, traces of the gas.

C. Cyanide gas had been used by the German and French armies in WW1 to delouse buildings and clothing. Both armies would post armed guards around—but a good distance away from—the building being used for this purpose. After 24 hours troops wearing breathing apparatus would open the doors and windows of the building, but retreat to a safe distance for a ventilation period of not less than 24 hours.

Thereafter clothing, blankets, carpets, etc., from the building would be put on lines and beaten by personnel wearing breathing apparatus to dispel the final traces of the gas. Cyanide gas is potentially explosive and personnel connected with operations involving it were routinely searched for matches and lighters before commencing any delousing operation.

Leuchter told the Court that he and his team of experts had visited Birkenau-Auschwitz and other alleged “Death Camps” in Poland and had seen the buildings which are described as having been “gas chambers”; had taken samples from the walls of rooms said to have been “gas chambers” for later forensic analysis in the United States; had inspected the crematoria facilities and had inspected other buildings in—and the land surrounding—the camps. He reported as follows:
1. None of the rooms said to have been “gas chambers” had gasketted doors or were in any other aspect of airtight construction. Had cyanide gas been released in any of the alleged “gas chambers” the camp staff would themselves quickly have fallen victim to it. Indeed, at Auschwitz the “gas chamber” was directly adjacent to the SS hospital. A channel ran between the two buildings along which the gas would have accumulated, causing fatalities among the hospital patients, either by gassing or an explosion.

2. The rooms described as “gas chambers” were far too small to accommodate the hundreds of persons who were supposed to have been packed into them. Had it been possible to cram the rooms as claimed, the occupants would have died of asphyxiation, even though the doors were not gasketted, long before cyanide gas could have permeated the remaining space in the room not taken up by people. Had people been crammed in the rooms in the numbers claimed, and had the rooms been filled with cyanide gas, then the job of extracting the corpses without preliminary intensive ventilation would have led to the deaths of those performing the work—and those supervising it—if they wore no breathing apparatus, especially if searches of the corpses’ orifices were conducted immediately on removal.

4. The crematoria at all camp sites were of the conventional type, fired by coke. Some cremation chambers (retorts) could accommodate two corpses, most only one. Such retorts could only reduce cadavers to a few bones (which thereafter would have to be pulverised) after a period of hours. None of the “extermination” sites had anything like the number of crematoria retorts capable of reducing to ashes the huge number of corpses which were allegedly being produced by the “gas chambers”. Each of the camps examined had a necessary number of crematoria retorts in relationship to the camps’ populations and the likely death rate from all of the usual natural causes (not including severe epidemics like typhus).

5. Any attempt to burn corpses in deep pits would be quite futile as all of the camps examined were built on marshland with a water table about 18 inches below the surface. Any hole deeper than that would quickly become a pond. Corpses cannot be burned under water, even with the assistance of petrol.
6. Leuchter’s team had not only taken samples from the walls of alleged “gas chambers” at the camps visited, but also samples from rooms where all agree that clothes had been subjected to cyanide gas for delousing purposes. These samples bad been given to a reputable firm of forensic scientists who regularly undertake work for American Courts.

They were not told where the samples had come from nor the reason for the examination. They were merely asked to report on the content of cyanide in the various samples. The forensic scientists’ report, in the form of a sworn affidavit, indicated that the content of cyanide in the samples which came from the walls of rooms used to delouse clothes was extremely high, but the samples taken from rooms where supposedly millions of people over a period of years had been gassed to death, showed almost no cyanide content whatsoever.

The very small amount of cyanide to register from the samples taken from the walls of the alleged “gas chambers” was due to the universally acknowledged fact that those rooms, along with all other rooms in these camps, were periodically deloused by means of cyanide gas in an attempt (eventually in vain, as we have discussed earlier) to protect the inmates from outbreaks of typhus.

ANNE FRANK’S STORY
As a footnote to the twin subjects of the reputation of Auschwitz as an “Extermination Camp” and the fatalities caused by typhus, we might observe that the tragic Anne Frank of Anne Frank’s Diary fame was sent to Auschwitz after she and her family were captured by the Germans in Holland. If the ‘Holocaust’ horror story accounts of Auschwitz are to be believed, Anne would have been an early candidate for the “gas chamber” as she was too young and not strong enough to perform hard physical work.

Yet even as publisher’s postscripts to ‘her’ book, statements made by her by her father after the war (another member of the legion of ‘Survivors’), and statements made by the ‘Anne Frank Foundation’ readily concede, Anne did not get gassed at Auschwitz. She did not even die at Auschwitz.

For some reason, the cruel Third Reich, having built an “Extermination Camp” for just such hapless victims as she, and having sent her there at some expense by train, they added to it by keeping her alive and healthy and then, unaccountably, went to the yet further expense of sending her on another train journey, this time to Germany (to Belsen, in fact) where, near the end of the war she, along with so many of her fellow inmates, contracted typhus and died, with not a gas chamber in sight. (There were no “gas chambers” in Belsen, as even Jewish propagandists admit nowadays.)

Anne’s end was tragic, but we think the events which immediately preceded it provide some additional perspectives by which we can judge the worth of ‘Holocaust’ fable.
[We think it right to state at this stage that the information which we have given above concerning the evidence supplied given by Fred Leuchter to the second trial of Ernst Zuendel in Canada, constitutes only a very abbreviated digest of the facts which he put on record under oath.

However, we believe we have given sufficient of his evidence to indicate, when it is compared with the horror stories highlighted in Jewish propaganda, that the fundamental proposition of the ‘Holocaust’ legend: that the German Nazis set about the “systematic extermination” of the Jewish race on a mass production basis by means of “gas chambers” in “Death Camps” such as Auschwitz, has no foundation in fact and is, on the contrary, a propaganda invention designed morally to intimidate Gentiles and thus provide the Jews with a carte blanche to behave as the Lords of the Earth which they believe that they are—or are destined by their God to become. Those who wish to study Fred Leuchter’s evidence in greater detail should obtain a copy of The Leuchter Report at £5 from: Focal Point Publications, Duke Street London, W1M 5DJ]
Leuchter’s revelations caused high anxiety among Jewish ‘Holocaust’ propagandists, though they were quick to use their power to ensure that nowhere in the world did the mass media report any aspect of his evidence and have now set about trying to destroy his company and his livelihood. But despite their evil and subversive hounding of this honest and brave man the truth about the ‘Holocaust’ lie is leaking out. It is essential that it be exposed for it is the greatest single propaganda weapon in Jewry’s arsenal.

This big lie, together with the monopoly control which Jewish bankers exert over the mass media, constitute the principal means whereby the majority of Gentiles is kept in a passive trance of guilt, fear and ignorance.

THE TRUTH REVERSED IN ‘HOLOCAUST’ HOAX (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/hatred.htm#HH) | Mass Extermination By Gas Chambers—How The Jews Say It Was Done (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/hatred.htm#ME) | What Fred Leuchter’s Evidence Revealed Was Done (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/hatred.htm#fl) | Anne Frank’s Story (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/hatred.htm#af)

eternal_spirit

06-04-2011, 12:47 PM

repetition is how people learn anyway, that's why in school you never got told sums and stuff only once;) DUH!
When you read the other side of the story the official versions mathematics simply do not add up to reality.

disorder2k8

06-04-2011, 01:02 PM

When you read the other side of the story the official versions mathematics simply do not add up to reality.

that's probably because there are so many differing opinions, of course some numbers will be wrong compared to others. It is a type of bias if you are inclined to one set of beliefs about how/why/when it happened.

edelweiss

06-04-2011, 01:18 PM

It's a shame that videos like these do not get deleted by youtube!!!

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3FPZn83pFg

whale

07-04-2011, 07:57 AM

[IMG]Well what the Holocaust deniers, Neonazis and Nazi apologists do is repeat all the same nonsense, over and over; it is then refuted and discredited, and then they just go quite for a while, then they start new threads repeating all the same nonsense again, and again and again..... I suspect that the only cure for them is the firing sqaud.Lux

That sums up you lot, and the holohoax is a luciferian/horus conspiracy, so figures!

Some questions for you so we can actullay see this process of refuting in action.

1). why didn't they mention the holocaust in their memoirs:

'Three of the best known works on the Second World War are General Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe (New York, Doubleday [Country Life Press], 1948), Winston Churchill's The Second World War (London, Cassell, 6 vol., 1948-1954), and the Mémoires de guerre of General de Gaulle (Paris, Plon, 3 vol., 1954-1959). In these three works not the least mention of the Nazi gas chambers is to be found.'

and we have pics of Eisenhower touring some camps

http://whale.to/b/ViewingBodies.jpg

Now, that would have made a great few chapters don't you think? Maybe it was amnesia?

2). Can you name the death camps in Germany?

3). Why is there no written evidence of a final solution?

4). Why did ther Germans use a lice killer, Zyclon B, instead of a gas designed for humans--Tabun? Now, I'm really interested to know the answere to that one

5). Why are there large scientifically proven traces of zyclon B in the lice killing buildings but just a trace in the alleged gas chambers?

6). Why are there no holes in the roof of Auschwitz 2 'gas' chambers? Holes needed to put in gas pellets?

7). Why did the Russians have to make holes in the roof of Auschwitz 1 gas chamber after the war?

8). Why are there a swimming pool, brothel, hospital, band at a death camp like auschwitz? And next to the 'gas' chamber?

Close-up slides of the aerial photographs indicated that the alleged gas chamber in Auschwitz I was about 30 metres from the SS hospital building. (18-4260) Felderer was told by people in the town of Auschwitz that during the war people could obtain special permission to take tours of the camp on special days.

30 metres!

9). Why is Auschwitz placed next to a town? 2km. With open views into the camp.

10). Why do the doors of the Auschwitz 1 gas chamber open inwards? Love to know the answer to that one.

11). Why didn't the Soviets open Auschwitz to viewing straight after the war? Why did they wait for at least 10 years?

Have you actually met Lucifer? And why did he hide out as Horus all those years back? Is Lucifer his real name? What is the difference between satanism and luciferianism?

answer those and I'll give you some more.

mrunhappy

07-04-2011, 08:37 AM

whale

07-04-2011, 12:24 PM

a Luciferian defending the Luciferian Zionist holocaust hoax using material from Zionist Wikipedia http://whale.to/b/wikipedia7.html

very strange. Yeah, you are going to convince me!

"Satanism and Luciferianism and other similar cults are blood cults that require blood to be sacrificed to pull in certain demons. For instance, blood may be taken from both the tongue and the genital area and mixed in a certain ceremony to invoke a particular demon. Demons are not bought with gold or silver, they are bought with blood. Some spirits are invoked by placing alcoholic enemas into the child. These children get totally intoxicated with alcohol, some to the point that they even die from the ceremony. This is all done to bring in particular demons. The Spirit Choronzon and Typhon are critical spirits to place into a person for the Mind-Control to work."-- http://whale.to/b/sp/f10.html

My use of the term Satanism has nothing to do with the Christian version of Satan. I use it only to describe a system of ritual sacrifice and torture which, staggering as it may seem; to most people, is commonplace all over the world today. Satanism is just another name for the worship of a highly destructive, negative force which has been given endless names over the centuries. Nimrod, Baal, Moloch or Molech, Set, the Devil, Lucifer, there is no end to them. Satanism perverts everything positive in the same way that the Nazis took a positive symbol, the swastika, and turned it around to symbolise the negative.
.....Satanism is based on the manipulation of energy and consciousness. These deeply sick rituals create an energy field, a vibrational frequency, which connects the consciousness of the participants to the reptilians and other consciousness of, the lower fourth dimension. This is the dimensional field, also known as the lower astral to many people, which resonates to the frequency of low vibrational emotions like fear, guilt, hate and so on. When a ritual focuses these emotions, as Satanism does, a powerful connection is made with the lower fourth dimension, the reptilians. These are some of the 'demons' which these rituals have been designed to summon since this whole sad story began thousands of years ago. This is when so much possession takes place and the reptilians take over the initiate's physical body. The leading Satanists are full-blood reptilians cloaked in human form. ---THE REPTILIAN BLOOD LEGACY by Andrew Hennessey

tinyint

07-04-2011, 12:45 PM

...the Devil, Lucifer, there is no end to them. Satanism perverts everything positive in the same way that the Nazis took a positive symbol, the swastika, and turned it around to symbolise the negative.

Not true on both accounts.

First, Satan is not equal to lucifer.

Read Steiner for example.

Second, the swastika:

http://www.tibetartwork.com/image/swastika-wheel.jpg

http://swastika-info.com/

Btw, where is the evidence for Hitler being Rothschild?
There exists none.

edelweiss

07-04-2011, 05:41 PM

a Luciferian defending the Luciferian Zionist holocaust hoax using material from Zionist Wikipedia

This description sounds quite reasonable.

And a picture says more than a thousand words

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/baphomet666.gif

I think I should add a warning.
This intimate family picture may offend or shock some of you for it is quite explicit.
I found it on this forum where the initiator of this thread posted it some time ago.
Let's hope it is at least not his daughter.

whale

07-04-2011, 08:44 PM

Not true on both accounts. First, Satan is not equal to lucifer. Read Steiner for example. Second, the swastika: http://www.tibetartwork.com/image/swastika-wheel.jpg http://swastika-info.com/ Btw, where is the evidence for Hitler being Rothschild? There exists none.

I have, http://whale.to/b/steiner_h.html

who said Steiner was an authority anyway?

Quote: Rudolf Steiner: Not only was Steiner a member of the Thule Society, he had been a Freemason for many years, a member of the Theosophical Society and a grandmaster in the lodge "MYSTICA AETERNA." This lodge belonged to the Memphis and Misraim Rite masonry, which was open for both men and women. The future butcher of Russia, Vladimir Lenin, was a Freemason and lived for many years in Switzerland. From the year 1909 and on, Steiner was in frequent contact with Lenin, while he still resided in Switzerland. Steiner was also a member in another occult Masonic order, Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) which claimed to be the heirs to the KNIGHTS TEMPLAR, an order specializing in ritual sexual orgies. http://okkulte-nazis.blogspot.com/2011/02/it-began-in-germany_24.html

Not exactly encouraging is it?

Lucifer/Satanism, at the very least same team, both evil, and then some. Of course, you can provide some evidence otherwise, but I wont hold my breath.

there is plenty of evidence Luciferianism is Satanism, huge amount.

and where is your evidence the swastika was an evil sign originally? You need that for your argument

and there is plenty of evidence Hitler was a Roschild, read http://whale.to/b/hallet_b.html for starters

If i was a luciferian I'd keep quiet about it like the majority do. Baby sacrifice isn't exactly a good calling card is it.

http://www.luciferia.tv/3seal_files/image001.jpg

Not exactly a happy bunny IMO

you want to watch out you don't end up like Crowley, with a demon or two hitching a ride

Before and after
http://whale.to/b/pz2uie9jaa.jpghttp://whale.to/b/13skx3iuzz.jpg

that is the whole point of satanism, possession by demons and/or reptilians. I can understand the reptoids being into it.

Glastonbury--not a good town to live in, feels ok on visting.

tinyint

07-04-2011, 08:52 PM

I have, http://whale.to/b/steiner_h.html

who said Steiner was an authority anyway?

I'd trust Steiner more than you. Its not about authority, but differentiation.
Do you think you are an authority?

edelweiss

07-04-2011, 09:10 PM

@ whale

I agree. Luciferiansm and Satanism come from the same pit and we need not discuss the details. Pfui Teufel!

There is no evidence that Hitler was a Rothschild and I think this rumour was spread by the latter.

Came across a thread today about this topic http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=147354

tinyint

07-04-2011, 09:14 PM

I agree. Luciferiansm and Satanism come from the same pit and we need not discuss the details. Pfui Teufel!

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Listen to his latest work, "Das Globale Drama"... nice. :)

dogsmilk

07-04-2011, 09:20 PM

Hate to point this out....

But wasn't Hitler a truther? Wasn't he in effect on our side? Didn't he have a point?

"Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe." January 30, 1939 speech to the Reichstag,

Yeah annihilating a minority group on the basis of some mental notion is always a great idea. this is after you've destroyed their livelihoods, legislated about who they can have sex with, banned them from park benches, cafes, owning a radio, keeping a pet etc etc etc.

Didn't you say on another thread you're a teacher?

If so,.that's fucking scary.

edelweiss

07-04-2011, 09:21 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlR-jJHzu4o

Listen to his latest work, "Das Globale Drama"... nice. :)

:D Jägermeister.

Thanks, will watch it, but you should know that I do not always agree with him on everything.

;)

dogsmilk

07-04-2011, 09:21 PM

a Luciferian defending the Luciferian Zionist holocaust hoax using material from Zionist Wikipedia http://whale.to/b/wikipedia7.html

Just out of interest, who is supposed to have orchestrated this "hoax" and how? Did Satan just pull it out of his non-existent ass?

edelweiss

07-04-2011, 09:23 PM

Just out of interest, who is supposed to have orchestrated this "hoax" and how? Did Satan just pull it out of his non-existent ass?

That sounds quite convincing and unexpectedly straight from this direction.

tinyint

07-04-2011, 09:24 PM

:D Jägermeister.

Thanks, will watch it, but you should know that I do not always agree with him on everything.

;)

Me too, but its usually well researched and sourced.
Just his conclusions are not always my thing. :)

ferryman to the dead

07-04-2011, 09:32 PM