Legal notices returned

[aryan57]

Can anyone give a heads up as to what is going on with my situation please?

I served a Power of Attorney and a notice Request for Clarification on the council prior to a meeting. I enclosed a letter asking for evidence of Benefit Fraud to be placed before us at a scheduled meeting. We offered to present answers and swear the answers in Affidavit form. At the meeting, their representative refused to sit in the same room as us and a go between was employed. No written evidence was shown to us. We were threated with PACE and a formal process, whatever that means and I was told that I myself would become the subject of an investigation unless I left the room. We stood our ground and the council representative left the building.

This morning, the legal notices served on the council were returned to us. They were sent to the council Recorded delivery so they cannot claim the notices were not served on them. They were in a plain brown envelope, with two compliments slips and included the original envelope which had been opened but not the covering letter sent in with the notices.

Is the council sending us a subtle meassage here? Are they saying, This matter is now closed, or, are they saying, we reject your paperwork?

In case anyone asks, we were not bluffing and we can prove that neither my son nor myself has commited Benefit Fraud. Everyone has the right to see the evidence against them and the council declined to show any evidence at all.

Anyone have any idea please what is going on here?

[yozhik]

Side issue ... send the 2nd Notice of your paperwork, recorded/registered delivery (again)
Also serve Notice that the first Notice was received and returned unanswered (dishonoured)

Do not get sucked into their process.
Proceed with your own LAWFUL process.

Keep to your standing.
Keep to your timelines.
If there are further accusation or allegations; continue to ask for "proof of claim" ... again, your LAWFUL right.

[aryan57]

Yozhik,

Thank you so much. I was wondering if I could now just sit back and relax as I am stressed out by all this but perhaps not. I will do as you sugest and keep plugging away at them. I have a second letter to send to them regarding the meeting we attended all ready to go and I will resubmit my notices with that. Will keep posting as the situation develops.

[yozhik]

Yozhik,

Thank you so much. I was wondering if I could now just sit back and relax as I am stressed out by all this but perhaps not. I will do as you sugest and keep plugging away at them. I have a second letter to send to them regarding the meeting we attended all ready to go and I will resubmit my notices with that. Will keep posting as the situation develops.

Always look at the "endgame" to determine your next step.
IF ... big if ... this was to be taken to court, the judge would be duty bound to look at the issue in terms of which party had acted honourably and which party had caused the dispute.

Dispute = dishonour.

As long as you demonstrate a willingness to communicate, to lawfully request further information, to lawfully request any proof of claim or for verification of accusations, then you will be shown as acting in honour and not halting discussions and bringing the matter into dispute.

Just focus on the foundations of law.

If some one or some thing accuses you of a wrong, it is your RIGHT to ask for proof of the claimed wrong ... is it not?

If you ask for proof and this request is met with unlawful threats or intimidation ... does this seem logical, reasonable or acceptable?

If you serve Notice asking for proof, as is your LAWFUL RIGHT; are you then not entitled to send a second Notice, pointing to your initial Notice and insisting on a reply? Referring to the initial Notice in your Second Notice, including the reference code/number of its delivery and the fact that the Notice had been opened, might also be prudent. Again, if you make a claim and it is not rebutted in reasonable time, it is affirmed.

They will try to divert you onto their path.
They will try to intimidate, threaten, bluff, coerce and deceive.
Stay focused, calm, respectful and stick to your rights and your timelines :)

[bsmurph83]

maybe if you aren't already doing it, send your notices by registered mail (or the equivalent wherever you are) and get delivery confirmation as well.

When they fail to respond adequately and rebut your points or provide any proof of claim you can start looking at Notices of Fault, then Notice of Dishonour and Default and start having stuff notarised I guess. That's my 2 cents worth. I'm no expert in these processes tho :D

[bsmurph83]

oh yeh, maybe at some point it would be appropriate to Notice them of your fee schedule for further meetings. Your time is valuable after all. Say, about as valuable as $1000 per meeting in future? Perhaps I'm being stingy though haha :cool:

[biblegirl]

I served a Power of Attorney and a notice Request for Clarification on the council prior to a meeting. I enclosed a letter asking for evidence of Benefit Fraud to be placed before us at a scheduled meeting. We offered to present answers and swear the answers in Affidavit form. At the meeting, their representative refused to sit in the same room as us and a go between was employed. No written evidence was shown to us. We were threated with PACE and a formal process, whatever that means and I was told that I myself would become the subject of an investigation unless I left the room. We stood our ground and the council representative left the building.


*round of applause*

that's great aryan57, please keep us updated on this issue :)

[boots]

Good stuff aryan57

These bastards will try all their tricks on you, because they have no case.

I would suggest you take in a Dictaphone so you can record what they say. Let them know that you are recording them and watch them squirm.

.

[tom bombadil]

Good stuff aryan57

These bastards will try all he tricks on you because they have no case.

I would suggest you take in a Dictaphone so you can record all what they say. Let them no that you are recording them and watch them squirm.

.

I have done this at work. They will instantly say that there is no need for it. You reply that it is this way or no way as you 'find it difficult' to remember dates and the like. If they still say no then they are being unreasonable. You then show them a pre-prepared slip of paper that indicated that you were denied this. Get them to sign it. They wont. But that is fine cos you have been recording up to this point and made it known. So even in 'their' courts you are acting legaly

Also. There is nothing that says that you (acting under common law) are not alowed to record the interview in secret or on the table. You are being denied. Put it in your pocket at the start and tell them when you are leaving!! This also shows you mean bussiness.


Tom.

[yozhik]

Good stuff aryan57

These bastards will try all he tricks on you because they have no case.

I would suggest you take in a Dictaphone so you can record all what they say. Let them no that you are recording them and watch them squirm.

.

Great suggestion.

If they try to bullshit you and claim their rights not to be recorded, simply accept their right, tell them you have no desire to deny them of their right not to be recorded and advise them that the easiest way to exercise their right to not to be recorded is to simply exercise their right to remain silent.

If they exercise their right to remain silent, you can guarantee they will also be exercising their right to not be recorded.

However, if they choose to surrender their right to remain silent then you will exercise your right to record everything they say and that you also claim the right to use whatever they say, as evidence, against them, should the need arise.

Why not then really fuck with their heads and ask; "do you understand"?
:D

No biggie.
They have a choice.
You wish them no harm and observe and respect their unalienable rights.
Whether or not to exercise them is their choice; as is your right to exercise yours.

Should they wish to remain silent, then again, they have choice; they can either dismiss the investigation and rescind all allegations, or they can put everything in writing. Either way, you're happy. If they choose the "in writing" option, then kindly and calmly remind them that you are still awaiting proof of claim of the allegations and you would expect these to be included in any written communication.

:D ... have fun.

[aryan57]

A big thanks to all you people out there who responded to my thread, all advice was deeply appreciated. Going down this road, even when you know you are correct can sometimes feel very lonely.

I am determined to follow the Freeman way and will always stay in honour. My Notices where taken to a Notary Public and signed with a red ink signature. My view was that its stupid to go to a gunfight without a loaded gun. In my covering letter, we undertook upon sight of the evidence to provide replies to any accusations in writing and to swear the answers in Affidavit form so that they would be admissable in any court proceeding. I also said in the letter that if they later brought up accusations after the meeting, they would not be considered. It would be considered "that you have made a claim upon which no relief can be granted". I demanded full disclosure but at the meeting, no written evidence was shown to us, it was all hearsay. Looking back and thinking about why the Council representative refused to be in the room with myself and my son, I think it was a matter of jurisdiction. The premises we were in are not Council owned. Although it was hard to do, we stood up to them and refused to back down, even when it was threatened that I would also be investigated as well as my son.

They returned my Notices and dishonoured me. They may have taken a decision that since we were very robust in our defense and they could not shake us, then it is best to let the matter drop. I am sure there are not many people who when threatened, would behave as we have done. These people are our servants but the servants seem to be getting above themselves. I take the view that is not before time that we stand up to tyrrany and reassert our ancient rights and freedoms. No one else will do it for us.

Yozhik said, "Follow your own lawfull process" Great advice. I called my M.P.'s constituency office and made an appointment to see him. Cant see him until 12th June, he is very busy with Euro elections but his secretary said that he can handle correspondence. Hopefully, my son's Housing Benefit will restart, but if not restarted, then I will ask my M.P. to find out why. The council may take the view that, "We cant shake them, OK, let them come after us"

My intuition says to wait and see if the Council want to make another move on this. I have a plan A and a plan B. Maybe the the Council does to so I must stay vigillant

Thanks again for all the great advice.

[aryan57]

just had my post delivered and there was one from the Council, from the assistant manager (Fraud and Recovery) It says:

"Thank you for your undated letter that I have recieved on todays date.

Your letter is recieving our attention and we will contact you shortly"

I did not send them an undated letter. I never send undated letters.They are up to something, thats for sure. Watch this space.

[yozhik]

just had my post delivered and there was one from the Council, from the assistant manager (Fraud and Recovery) It says:

"Thank you for your undated letter that I have recieved on todays date.

Your letter is recieving our attention and we will contact you shortly"

I did not send them an undated letter. I never send undated letters.They are up to something, thats for sure. Watch this space.

Question 1:
Do you have a copy?
What date did you have on it?

Question 2:
Was it a letter or was it a Notice?

Again; important distinctions to make.
Don't play their little games.

If it was a dated Notice; affirm your standing to them.
What they have done in their reply is made a counter-offer.
If you leave their counter-offer unanswered; it stands as affirmed.
A simple reply to them, pointing out the errors, will put it back on your standing on your terms.

[tracker]

just had my post delivered and there was one from the Council, from the assistant manager (Fraud and Recovery) It says:

"Thank you for your undated letter that I have recieved on todays date.

Your letter is recieving our attention and we will contact you shortly"

I did not send them an undated letter. I never send undated letters.They are up to something, thats for sure. Watch this space.


Yes but even if it was undated , the recorded delivery will be and can there for prove date it was recieved .

be carefull , even if you didnt date it , the "IDEA" of phocusing on the DATE , is to ( as some one else has mentioned ) to take your phocus away from the issue that they refuse to show you proof etc and have been very unreasonable , unprofesional and even threatening , intimidating etc .

they have mentioned the missing date on the letter for a phocus point ,

be aware !

they may try to turn the coggs somewhere else .:cool:

[pipsicle]

just had my post delivered and there was one from the Council, from the assistant manager (Fraud and Recovery) It says:

"Thank you for your undated letter that I have recieved on todays date.

Your letter is recieving our attention and we will contact you shortly"

I did not send them an undated letter. I never send undated letters.They are up to something, thats for sure. Watch this space.

What are you fighting for aryan? Freeman status?

[girlgye]

just had my post delivered and there was one from the Council, from the assistant manager (Fraud and Recovery) It says:

"Thank you for your undated letter that I have recieved on todays date.

Your letter is recieving our attention and we will contact you shortly"

I did not send them an undated letter. I never send undated letters.They are up to something, thats for sure. Watch this space.

This is why it is important to have it legally recognised by a notary. You can charge the council for all the fees incurred.
That's Z list 'liars' for you.

[aryan57]

Pipsicle, I do not have to fight to be a Freeman, I already am, I just forgot who I was and to reclaim my ancient rights.

Thanks to excellent advice from Yozhik, I almost overlooked the claim from the Council that I had sent them an undated letter. I always date my letters so if they have an undated letter, it certainly did not come from me and yes, I always keep copies and send them recorded delivery. I sent them Notice that I never send undated letters and to please send me a copy. They will have a hard time doing that unless they wish to resort to forgery and I would not put it past them! I also asked them to stop refering to me as Mr, as this was a legal status that I was forced to assume but have now lawfully revoked.

It now looks to me that they are seeking to claim that I did not Notice them before the Tuesday meeting. In my covering letter, again sent recorded delivery, I made it clear that we expected written evidence to be put on the table, we expected full disclosure. We offered to swear any answers in the form of an Affidavit. I also said, "If you do not bring up something that you later bring up, it will be considered that you have made a claim upon which no relief can be grated.

Two questions if anyone can help please to expand my knowledge. How many people comprise a Common Law jury? Is it 12 or 13. I may Notice the Council and ask them to appear before a jury of peers from my community in a Common Law court. Its just an idea but it would certainly create some publicity.

Is the King James version of The Bible still a usefull document in a court? I mean does it carry any weight at all? It was after all used in court rooms for a few hundred years.

I cant get every document I send to the Council Notarised as for me as its a 20 mile trip. How about if I get three people to witness my letters? The Bible says "Out of the mouths of two or three shall a thing be established".

Thanks to Boots for the great tip. First thing tomorrow, I am off to Argos to buy a Diktaphone.

I now feel that there may be some way to go before this thing is settled and I will post an update when there are more developments.

[aryan57]

A letter has come my way from the go between, from Housing Benefit. They still say they will interview my son under PACE and caution in two weeks time and in bold they state: "His father will not be allowed to be there"

My question is: Can my son go to the meeting and refuse to be cautioned? If so, what form of words can he use? They say nothing about a solicitor being present.

[biblegirl]

wow in bold letters, eh? sounds like you made quite an impression ;)


sorry i can't be of more help to your question there, just wanted to say keep up the good work, soon you'll be able to look back on all of this and smile :)

[yozhik]

A letter has come my way from the go between, from Housing Benefit. They still say they will interview my son under PACE and caution in two weeks time and in bold they state: "His father will not be allowed to be there"

My question is: Can my son go to the meeting and refuse to be cautioned? If so, what form of words can he use? They say nothing about a solicitor being present.

Excuse me?

Housing Benefit has stated they will interview your son and that "his father is not allowed to be there"?

Ummmm ... just a couple of questions;

1. Who or what gave them the authority to tell your son what and when he would do anything?

2. Who or what gave them the authority to dictate who your son would have as his representative?

3. When and how did your son ever give his consent to this process?

4. Is it a "letter" or a "notice"? How is it specifically named? Remember, whilst purposefully intimidating, even a "court summons" is still just an invitation. Is this merely a dressed up invitation (offer) with intimidatory tactics?

5. By "PACE", are you referring to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act? So does this mean the Housing Benefit people are citing PACE as their authority? Or is the letter from the Police?

[sindakit]

Thanks to excellent advice from Yozhik, I almost overlooked the claim from the Council that I had sent them an undated letter. I always date my letters so if they have an undated letter, it certainly did not come from me and yes, I always keep copies and send them recorded delivery. I sent them Notice that I never send undated letters and to please send me a copy. They will have a hard time doing that unless they wish to resort to forgery and I would not put it past them! I also asked them to stop refering to me as Mr, as this was a legal status that I was forced to assume but have now lawfully revoked.

just a thought over the bold sentence above: did you ever actually assume the legal status or were you tricked into believing that the 'person' was you? ;)

But to back what yozhik said, question the authority of their apparent demands and why you cannot attend such an interview should you wish to go along.

[aryan57]

Thanks Biblegirl for your support. The letter is addressed to my son from a woman who calls herself an investigations officer. The letter said, picking out relevant bits:

RE:INTERVIEW UNDER CAUTION.

Need to interview you, believe you have savings/capital, not declared, your support worker will be with you, Investigations are governed by The Police and Criminal evidence act, you will have the right to ask questions, (What have we been doing?) YOUR FATHER WILL NOT BE PRESENT. (In other words, we do not accept a Power of Attorney served on us) We need to protect the Authority and public money etc. Failure to attend will not stop the investigation and we will take whatever action we deem appropriate. It probably is just an offer with intimidatory tactics (thanks Yozhik) I am not intimidated but my son definitly is.

Completely arrogant in tone. We do what we like. We dont recognise that lawful notices served on us have any power, etc.

Went today to drop all the papers in at my M.P's office to ask for help in getting accusations put in writing. Hope he is not too busy filling out expenses forms!

Also bought a Diktaphone (Thanks Boots)

[yozhik]

Thanks Biblegirl for your support. The letter is addressed to my son from a woman who calls herself an investigations officer. The letter said, picking out relevant bits:

RE:INTERVIEW UNDER CAUTION.

Need to interview you, believe you have savings/capital, not declared, your support worker will be with you, Investigations are governed by The Police and Criminal evidence act, you will have the right to ask questions, (What have we been doing?) YOUR FATHER WILL NOT BE PRESENT. (In other words, we do not accept a Power of Attorney served on us) We need to protect the Authority and public money etc. Failure to attend will not stop the investigation and we will take whatever action we deem appropriate. It probably is just an offer with intimidatory tactics (thanks Yozhik) I am not intimidated but my son definitly is.

Completely arrogant in tone. We do what we like. We dont recognise that lawful notices served on us have any power, etc.

Went today to drop all the papers in at my M.P's office to ask for help in getting accusations put in writing. Hope he is not too busy filling out expenses forms!

Also bought a Diktaphone (Thanks Boots)

Its an invitation to attend.

Failure to attend will not stop the investigation and we will take whatever action we deem appropriate.
This confirms that there is a choice.
If you do not atend, blah blah blah ... means there is no obligation to attend.

We need to protect the Authority and public money etc.
Of course they do; that is their duty.
However, they are also obliged to observe the Law and due process.

YOUR FATHER WILL NOT BE PRESENT.
Correct. Your son's lawfully appointed Power of Attorney and independent witness WILL attend.


RE:INTERVIEW UNDER CAUTION.
Under caution of what? By whom/what?

Need to interview you, believe you have savings/capital, not declared,
Proof of claim? Basis of "beliefs"?
Does their "need" overide unalienable rights?

your support worker will be with you,
Says who?
Was this agreed to?
Who is the support worker?
Appointed by whom/what?
Where is the consent/agreement?
No consent = no contract.

Intimidation, bullying, bluff, buster and bullshit.

Do not ignore the "invitation"; to do so would be to tacitly agree to it and the offered conditions.

Serve your 2nd Notice, according to your timelines.
Insist on proof of claim.

[aryan57]

That letter was brilliantly disected by Yozhik. Yes, it is an invitation. Dont know why I didnt see it!

My son is now beginnig to crumble under the pressure and wants to hire a solicitor to sit with him during the meeting. He just wants the whole thing over and done with.

Yozhik, can you please give me some guidance as to what should be in my Second Notice. I feel we have come too far to just roll over and play dead. I am pretty tired of the whole miserable business myself but I am NOT inclined to give up. A maxim of law: He who falis to assert his rights, has none

[yozhik]

That letter was brilliantly disected by Yozhik. Yes, it is an invitation. Dont know why I didnt see it!

My son is now beginnig to crumble under the pressure and wants to hire a solicitor to sit with him during the meeting. He just wants the whole thing over and done with.

Yozhik, can you please give me some guidance as to what should be in my Second Notice. I feel we have come too far to just roll over and play dead. I am pretty tired of the whole miserable business myself but I am NOT inclined to give up. A maxim of law: He who falis to assert his rights, has none

In simple terms, your second Notice is an affirmation of your first Notice; mostly in part, due to the fact they have ignored it and are still in dishonour of a perfectly lawful process and lawful request for "proof of claim".

Break this down into bite size chunks; what have you actually asked them for?

They have made a claim ... "we believe your son has committed benefit fraud and has claimed money he is not entitled to."

You have said ... "ok - fair enough ... we will accept your belief and accusation, on the condition that you prove your claim ... so that it isn't a baseless claim, could you please provide us with the evidence or proof so that we can fully answer your accusations."

Do you see anything "unreasonable" or "unlawful" in that?
I sure as hell don't.
In fact, this is the lawful process.
Accusation ... evidence (proof of claim) ... judgement.

You can not be "rushed to judgement". (big mistake)
You can not be found guilty if there is no proof.

If I was in your shoes, I would simply construct a 2nd Notice, directly referring to your 1st Notice. I would state early in the 2nd that "following your lack of response to the 1st Notice, dated XX/XX/XXXX, sent to your office by recorded delivery, ref no. XXXXXXXXX, I have no option but to send you this 2nd Notice in recognition of the fact that your lack of response is a default of that initial Notice and has placed you in a status of being in dishonour.

However, I now serve you a Second Notice, restating the conditions of the first Notice and give you a further XX days to reply."

I would make a point of also acknowledging their letter and rebutting the points that I could not tacitly comply with ... but at all times ensuring that MY Notice was the timeline and ensuring that I kept control of the process and was the party acting honourably. I would be ensuring that in this "I can pee higher than you can" tug-of-war, they were the party in dishonour.

Their tactics to wrestle control and timeline would be rejected, in writing, and the process would be brought back to my terms and my timeline.

Any offer to contract would be rejected; all claims would be challenged for proof and validation. Also, any presumptions or assertions would immediately be rejected so as not to give tacit compliance or acquiescence.

[biblegirl]

don't know if you've seen this already, but it's pretty inspirational for this venture we're on:

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-3981-0-8-8--.html

(a man videotaped asserting his rights with border patrol officers, its worth watching to the end :D)

[Ian2day]

That letter was brilliantly disected by Yozhik. Yes, it is an invitation. Dont know why I didnt see it!

My son is now beginnig to crumble under the pressure and wants to hire a solicitor to sit with him during the meeting. He just wants the whole thing over and done with.

Yozhik, can you please give me some guidance as to what should be in my Second Notice. I feel we have come too far to just roll over and play dead. I am pretty tired of the whole miserable business myself but I am NOT inclined to give up. A maxim of law: He who falis to assert his rights, has none

Is this more about you proving a point or about you supporting your son. We each have to fight our own battles. Or not, depends on your view of your sons ability to live his life and not have him refight your battles with tptb. I'm not saying don't do it. Just be sure of the reasons why this is going ahead. Your son might not want to tell you that he wants to just do it the conventional way. I'm not trying to dissude him or you from standing up to tptb via Freeman. Just maybe suggesting that you be sure of what you're both trying to achieve with this.

[deem]

When sending correspondants by registered letter, ask the post office for a 'proof of receipt - registered letter service'. When it arrives at its destination the postman gets them to sign a little pink slip of paper, which is the P.O.s proof of delivery. and the posty also gets them to sign a card which is then sent back to you. its expensive, probably around £7 these days, but it tells you the date, the time it was delivered, and wo signed for it in print and signature. Iv used it a number of times in the nineties, they should still do it.

[deem]

don't know if you've seen this already, but it's pretty inspirational for this venture we're on:

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-3981-0-8-8--.html

(a man videotaped asserting his rights with border patrol officers, its worth watching to the end :D)

Yeh i agree, but the bastards got their revenge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJVAX13BPQ

[the worm that turned]

Yeh i agree, but the bastards got their revenge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJVAX13BPQ

Now if that situation doesn't make you start thinking about Nazi germany then I don't know what will. Instead of a luger they use a tazer. If they don't feel like they have the power they get upset and start using unnecessary force.

That is the world we are living in and if anyone ever says to you that following Freeman and trying to live a fair free life is wrong then just show them these two videos.

BTW - what was the outcome of this. Did the guy sue these jumped-up wimps asses?

I wonder if they were bullied at school, or more likely by their siblings or wives?

[aryan57]

To add a little more information about my son:

He suffered a severe depressive illness after leaving school. For almost 4 years, he stayed in his room,would not eat together with us and would only leave the house with a social worker 3 or 4 times a year. This was a very sticky period for us, dont know how we got through it. He moved out two years ago to a flat and with support, he is now almost recovered. He came with us to see John Harris at the Totnes talk and he found the experience very inspirational. His Housing Benefit claim was submitted by his social worker and it seems there are mistakes on that form for which he is now responsible. I think my son and I are both on the same page but if he really does want to do it their way, then I will step aside and let him do it his way.

Thanks to deem for info on registered letters, I did not have that information.

Good point about not trying to live someones life for them, that is not what I am trying to do. I am in a position as his father to know most things about his financial affairs and can document most things in this area.

Thanks again to Yozhik for tips on my Second notice, I am working on it now. They are still not talking to me and regard me as a 3rd party interloper. I will submit (No, better not use that word) send my 2nd Notice on Friday and refuse the invitation, on behalf of my son, to the June 3rd meeting and offer them a meeting on neutral ground somewhere else where they can present their evidence to us. Wednesday today so I expect tomorrow to have my resent Notices returned.

Right, going out to lunch now with my son so will ask him what he wants to do next. Really, I am only trying the best way I know how to support him and get this matter concluded.

[yozhik]

I was curious, so did a little dictionary digging ... :rolleyes:

Their phrase "INTERVIEW UNDER CAUTION" started making some sounds on my bullshit meter, so thought it worthy of a little time ...

CAUTION. A term of the Roman civil law, which is used in various senses. It
signifies, sometimes, security, or security promised. Generally every
writing is called cautio, a caution by which any object is provided for.
Vicat, ad verb. In the common law a distinction is made between a contract
and the security. The contract may be good and the security void. The
contract may be divisible, and the security entire and indivisible. 2 Burr,
1082. The securities or cautions judicially required of the defendant, are,
judicio sisti, to attend and appear during the pendency of the suit; de
rato, to confirm the acts of his attorney or proctor; judicium solvi, to pay
the sum adjudged against him. Coop. Just. 647; Hall's Admiralty Practice,
12; 2 Brown, Civ. Law, 356.

Bouvier's 1856 Edition

CAUTION. In Scotch law, and in admiralty law. Surety; security; bail; an undertaking by way of surety. 6 Mod. 162. See Cautio.

CAUTIO. In the civil and French law. Security given for the performance of any thing; bail; a bond or undertaking by way of surety. Also the person who becomes a surety.

In Scotch law. A pledge, bond, or other security for the performance of all obligation, or completion of the satisfaction to be obtained by a judicial process. Bell.

Black's 2nd Edition, page 179

Now, this to me would seem that your son has been offered a contract, to be used as surety for an obligation, for which a judicial process will be used for satisfaction of the obligation.

In other words ... the statute requires a financial judgement. Your son has been offered a contract to put himself up as the surety for that financial judgement. An "interview under caution" means, we will interview you "under" the conditions of "caution" ... we will speak to you and interview you with agreement that you are surety/security/have been bonded.

This must be clarified, comprehended and either accepted or rejected.
Remember; tacit agreement is considered consent.

I would have some questions re: the letter :rolleyes: ... I would also support it with some of my own understandings on the matter.

"It is my understanding that to be party to a contract for an "interview under caution" is to agree to the person becoming surety for an obligation, for which a judicial process will be used to satisfy the obligation. If not rebutted in reasonable time, it is AFFIRMED."

"I do not understand the subject of the letter; that being, "interview under caution". Please explain this expression to me and give full disclosure of its legal definition and full disclosure of its implications, in plain English. i.e. not legalese."

"It is my understanding that for a contract to be valid it requires; a meeting of minds between the parties, an agreement to enter into the contract, legal competence of each party and consideration. If not rebutted in reasonable time, it is AFFIRMED."

"Is your letter an offer to contract "under caution"?
If it is, then please give full disclosure of the consideration within the offer. If it is an offer to contract, then please detail the "meeting of minds" you presume exists."


NOTES:

judicio sisti, to attend and appear during the pendency of the suit
pendency: The quality or state of being undecided, or in continuance; suspense; as, the pendency of a suit.


A thing or a person can be bonded or held as surety. A man can not.

[aryan57]

Yozhik, you are correct, your bull**** meter has not let you down. The unforunate fact is that my son has entered a contract and the Council is on the other side. He may have entered that contract under duress simply because it was government policy to drive up property prices and make a basic right, a roof over you head, unaffordable for many. So Housing Benfit is your only chance to pay your rent. Access to shelter is a basic right laid down in UN charters, signed by the UK. But I dont see any success in argueing that point with the Council. I think the person who is pursuing him is just a worker drone, she is just going through the process she has been told to follow with no room for distractions, and has no appreciation of a lawful process. She is just carrying out public policy and thinks she is acting lawfully.

Saw my son today and he looked terrible, the pressure is really getting to him. There are clear signs to my eyes that he is slipping back into mental instability. He expressed concern about being turfed out of his flat because the rent is not being paid. He wanted me to look into having a solicitor represent him at the meeting in two weeks time. He is now ready to lie down and let the steamroller go over him, even though we have told him many times that he has done nothing wrong.

The pressure is now getting to me too. I find myself walking around the house, talking to myself and rehearsing in my mind how we got here. It is my choice to be a Christian and I pray a lot.

Unless I get a new development, I plan to rest for two days and then send off my 2nd Notice on Friday. Love and light to you all.

P.S. My wife just asked me what an investigations officer did so I said she looked for evidence. She replied: "But there isnt any" So I said; "That's why they cant find it" LOL.

[zhenshanren]

I'm sorry to hear about your (son's) situation. You seem to have a good ability to examine and reflect on the issues and results.

If it helps, try to remember 2 things:


When you take a step back, you'll find the skies and seas boundless

Proper Planning Prevents(Piss)Poor Performance

[Ian2day]

Perhaps contact the Social Worker who filled the HB form out for your son and explain to them what is going on.

[esse]

Hope you can stick to your guns Aryan... understand the stress caused by pressure, but from reading this thread it sounds like you are doing all the right things and that the stress is mostly just mental and not based on any actual penalty or eviction. Keep going mate - they have got to contend with the law and you are getting excellent advice from Yozik! You're son is prone to stress anyway, don't let that sway you - seems like that is why you're doing what yr doing to help him.
I think you've got all the ball in yr court here

[yozhik]

P.S. My wife just asked me what an investigations officer did so I said she looked for evidence. She replied: "But there isnt any" So I said; "That's why they cant find it" LOL.

It's probably the reason they have so far ignored your lawful requests for proof of claim :rolleyes:

[aryan57]

Thanks for all the kind comments, this is a great community here and I am pleased I joined. Today was supposed to be a day of rest.

Today had a letter from the Council. They aknowledge receiving my "purported Power of Attorney and my Request for Clarification" They claim that: "We are exempt from having to provide, on demand, any proof, documents, qualifications or explanations to you or your son prior to the interview under caution"

This is a pretty breathtaking statement for anyone to make and obviously, I need to ask them from where they get their exemption.

"Further, we will proceed in accordance with lawful procedure in any way we need to, in order to fully and lawfully, investigate the case"

It goes on; "Although you would normally be alllowed to be with your son, in this case, it will not be allowed, since you yourself may need to be interviewed at a later stage in this investigation. Under the circumstances, it would be neither fair nor ethical for you to be present"

They then go on to say: "We understand the burden you have had to carry over the years with your son and understand that he is vulnerable" No they bloody well dont! If they had they would have done more to help me and not just fob me off when I asked for help when I was at my witts end. Dealing with someone who at that time was extremely violent. As a result of this violence I will for the rest of my days need to walk with a stick and need regular Chiropratic care. I have the following health care advice in writing from the Patient Advice Line Sevice (PALS). Their advice:

"Provoke your son to violence, call the police, have him arrested, refuse to take him back into the house. Social serrvices will then step in and care for him" This is what passes for professional health care in England. I would not even dream of throwing a sick animal out onto the street, let alone a human being.

I forgave my son for all this, a long time ago. He was genuinely sick and and out of his mind.

Next step has to be sending them my 2nd Notice and asking from whence their authority comes to ignore basic and just demands.

[esse]

They sure are rattling their sabers... I'd stick to the advice given earlier to be present not as father but as POA or freeman or what have you... I'd like to point out that they really are breathing heavy and trying to bully with scare tactics and power trips now and as such you must have them rattled... I doubt very much what they have said has any legal weight... Stick to it, it all tells me yr getting somewhere when the monkeys dance gets so much more showy :)

[biblegirl]

They sure are rattling their sabers... I'd stick to the advice given earlier to be present not as father but as POA or freeman or what have you... I'd like to point out that they really are breathing heavy and trying to bully with scare tactics and power trips now and as such you must have them rattled... I doubt very much what they have said has any legal weight... Stick to it, it all tells me yr getting somewhere when the monkeys dance gets so much more showy :)

this is exactly what it sounds like aryan, you must be getting somewhere! :)

[yozhik]

Today had a letter from the Council. They aknowledge receiving my "purported Power of Attorney and my Request for Clarification" They claim that: "We are exempt from having to provide, on demand, any proof, documents, qualifications or explanations to you or your son prior to the interview under caution"
No one is above the law.

... and again, this phrase "interview under caution" ... and offer which I am confident, has been rejected. :)


This is a pretty breathtaking statement for anyone to make and obviously, I need to ask them from where they get their exemption.
Breathtaking?
I would say arrogantly lawless.

"Further, we will proceed in accordance with lawful procedure in any way we need to, in order to fully and lawfully, investigate the case"
Great. That is all you ask; that they proceed lawfully.
To proceed lawfully, providing proof of claim, as has been lawfully requested, would be a good start. ;)

It goes on; "Although you would normally be alllowed to be with your son, in this case, it will not be allowed, since you yourself may need to be interviewed at a later stage in this investigation. Under the circumstances, it would be neither fair nor ethical for you to be present"
Allowed?
ALLOWED???
Sounds like a mother or father telling their child off ... (which it is, actually).
... and what exactly does "normally be allowed, but in this case, you're not allowed ..."

Of course you are "allowed" ... it is the LAW!!! ... actually, being allowed has nothing to do with it; you have a right to be there. Period.


Next step has to be sending them my 2nd Notice and asking from whence their authority comes to ignore basic and just demands.
Send 2nd Notice.
Re-ask the questions they have ignored.
Reject any presumption they make, which you do not want to contract to.
Rebut/reject an "interview under caution", after asking for clarification of this term, in plain English, with full disclosure of the phrase "under caution".

[aryan57]

I have drafted a letter to the council. Anyone see how it can be improved please? I am very tired of having to fight these people who claim exemption from lawful behavior:

I refer to your letter of **/**/**** which contained much of interest to me. I am pleased that we are communicating and on the same page, but on different lines. Please accept that I bear none at **** any ill will, although I consider that **** has trespassed many times against me and continues to do so But as the prayer commands:” forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”.

You claim that you are exempt from having to comply with certain common, centuries old, basic laws of justice. I should be obliged if you can direct me to a document, an Act, a Statute Law, a Common Law, or anything that gives you this claimed exemption. I accept conditionally what you say, just please direct me to where I can find this information? Nothing in law can override the 1215 Magna Carta, for it predates all Parliaments. Can you prove your claim to be above the law? You say you will proceed lawfully. To provide Proof of Claim, as has been demanded lawfully, would be a very good start.

I am actually very happy for you to interview me under caution, using PACE and making a recording. I shall respond on that day as the spirit commands me so to do. Math. 10:17. I, the flesh and blood living soul will attend that interview, not the legal fiction going by the name **** **** *** Jesus Christ has already paid the price for all my sins.

I am gratified that you say you will take an ethical approach. I intend to do the same, and I will assist your enquiry in any way open to me. However, you make this very difficult by not putting written evidence on the table, as I have lawfully demanded. I am able to provide you with certain easily verifiable information. But I forget again: you are exempt. Things are actually very different to how they appear to be.

I am grateful that the Council at last recognises the burden that my wife and I have had to carry. However your recognition would be much greater had you had had the experience of being thrown down stairs? In my wife’s case, physically being assaulted. For myself, I must go through the rest of my life with the aid of a walking stick. And being subject to constant pain. We forgave **** for all this long ago, for he was genuinely ill in his mind.

Would you mind clarifying for me how you understand the word CAUTION? My understanding is that the word CAUTION refers to becoming a surety for a thing of value. To bond someone or something. It is my understanding that to be a party to a contract to an “interview under caution” is to agree to the person becoming surety for an obligation, for which a judicial process will be used to satisfy the obligation. But then, how silly of me to ask you to explain this when you are exempted from giving any explanation.

Note:I have already rejected the PACE meeting via a seperate notice, sent yesterday.

[ex sheep]

I think you are fantastic aryan57, I wish I could give you advice but I am new to all this, but learning.
I give you moral support, and I can see you making progress, don't give up, and all the best.

[aryan57]

As the day has drawn to a close, I have felt a quiet smoldering anger within me. No letter that I have ever recieved has upset me more. When I first read the letter where it said. We are exempt, my jaw dropped and I was speechless. Time to stop playing by their rules I think.

In my Power of Attorney notice, the right was claimed to convene a Common Law Court to hear the allegations made. It is time to make good on my words.

We, the people are sovereign in this land and have given our power away. We must reclaim that power. This is a work in progress. Lets see if I have the stamina, the willpower to do something or just remain a keyboard commando. Freedom is not free, it comes at a price. I think I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. I will be chaged by the choices i am making at this time, I hope for the better. This thing has to start somewhere, I wish it could start with someone else because the enormity of what I plan to do frightens me.

From tomorrow morning, I shall be placing posters all over town inviting men and women over 18 of good will and good character to contact me with a view to finding the people I need to convene a Common Law Court. This is an entirely lawful process. Lets see how the Council react to being on the wrong end of a peoples court. It is possible to place liens on council; property to enforce any judgements a Common Law Court makes. Its our country. Time some of us stood up.

[yozhik]

Respect to you.

Every man and woman has a "line in the sand".
It would seem, from your passion, your line has been crossed.

[esse]

noble letter aryan - so refreshing to hear. I've been through the mill once badly with the tribunal and guardianship boards in a family matter in Australia which has devastated my family and basically had all our wealth stolen from us and my mother incarcerated as a ward of the state for the last 8 years where everything from her medication to her money and where and how she lives, what she eats, you name it is controlled and dictated. All of this was done unlawfully, and at the time I was only 27 years old and had no idea how to fight them... It's a long and painful story :(

My advice to you having been through this is don't give up - I wish I'd known these things about representing myself and common law etc then, I did what I knew to fight it at the time and we left the state all the orders were being made in... that resulted in a very bizarre nation wide man hunt for us (we had committed no crime, based on slander of her ex partner and ex mother in law who had a lot of money to hide our lives were interrupted, my mother taken away and forced to live in an institute in another state and I have only been allowed to have an accompainied visit with her once in 8 years. They stole and sold all our possessions including mine which they had no right to and basically treated us worse than dogs.) They told me I would have only the option to fight this at the Supreme Court level which would cost me at least 50,000$ to even start to do - as these Guardianship Boards have been given such far reaching powers as to be made the appeals body for their own decision making process and Supreme Court is the only other option if not satisfied with their decision on their decision when you complain. Hows that for fair. And these people have the ability to by law so they say dictate every aspect of any of our lives if there is a family dispute or medical issue.

???

Criminal

Anyway... I'm going on... sigh

but what I wanted to say to you, is to guard you energy carefully and take it slow my friend - it is too easy for them to play tennis with these ridiculous letters and treat you like rubbish so I want to remind you of the dark energy they are basically coming from and to step back from it while you are playing the chess game. I think you are well equipped to win this game, I have no doubt of it from what I see - and it is wonderful to know the law and to know that it actually empowers those who recognize it. Mostly they operate on fear and ignorance and poverty and grinding people down, bullying them or just plain kidding them into believing they have no way out. You know better - just take care of yourself and don't get emotional about it - yes, they are evil snakes and will act disgustingly.... expect that, be cool and deal with it simply without letting yourself get emotionally or energetically drained. You sound like a spiritual man, stick with your faith and meditate a lot through this and try to see above it - enjoy it even, it's a dance and right now you are leading that and that in itself is a very beautiful and empowering thing.

Some freemason lawyer once told me this quote they love:

"don't fight with pigs... you'll get dirty and they will love it"

so I think that applies - in the sense that I find the agenda of these curmudgeons is to drag us down in any way they can. But the great thing is - you have to let them. Don't invite the vampire in, just see it for what it is and get that stake good and ready!

Peace, love and all the best with your dance of victory
:)

[aryan57]

Esse, your story made me feel so sad. My wife and I will say prayers for you and keep you in our thoughts and send you good vibrations. I know exactlly what you mean about dark vibrations and being watchfull.

My internet connection has become very unstable so I must make this a quick message. God bless you Esse.

[free_soul]

Ive read it all and i feel for you man, keep at it the ending to the thread so far looks promising.

I know what it is like to live with someone who is surverely suffering from a mental illness as i am myself. I was lucky enough to gain the forgiveness from my mum and sister just not the rest of the family (who needs em :P)

Much love and carry on what your are doing :)

[esse]

thanks aryan - don't know what happened with the triple up on my post there... computer doing funny things. Well, the experience certainly made me want to help others and wake up pretty quick to what can happen to people when they get their claws in you - I wouldn't have believed it could have happened to us - now I know better. How rotten our system truly is and all that is beneath it

[zhenshanren]

I'm in agreement with the past few posts but wish to point out one very small thing.

But I forget again: you are exempt.

IMO even this little mild sarcasm really has no place in this type of letter and would be even more powerful with something something a bit more poetic and robust.

I haven't come up with anything specific yet but it's just a thought.

Peace

[kanz]

Yeh i agree, but the bastards got their revenge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJVAX13BPQ

Unreal , thats so bad I can't help but think it's fake. Thinking that can happen is crazy and something that would make your methods of fighting the system change as quick as the wind.

[esse]

Ugh.. thats disgusting... scary

Certainly makes one feel like what can you do when these thugs pull you over but not talk back etc.... It's so wrong. As time goes on and they get used to having this power of the taser and no real limit on it's use... the abuses are sure to spread like a plague.

Damn... what a vid to wake up to. :eek:

[aryan57]

My internet connection went off suddenly for 24 hours so have not been online.

Have just written a supportive letter to a Freeman who is in jail, in Docaster Marshgate. Apparently, he was remanded in custody becuse he refused to accept a psychiatric examination, which he obviously did not need. He has a wife and child who are suffering through this. Full details can be found on the tpuc.com forum for those interested. Why not send him a letter, the full address is on the thread.

Had a letter from my M.P. He was after all not busy filling out his expense forms LOL. He urges me to let the formal process go ahead and says there is no reason that my son,s Housing Benefit can not be restarted once this is done and dicrepancies cleared up. My son now wants to go down this road and wants a solicitor to be with him so there is little more I can do.

Once this is done, no doubt they will turn their attention to investigating me.
Little busybodies, the lot of them. I try hard to mind my own business. I just wish other people thought that way too.

[yozhik]

Don't see it as defeat; look upon it as first hand experience of the corrupt system and how intimidation and bullying overrides justice and law.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

[zhenshanren]

...and smarter too. ;)

[free_soul]

Don't see it as defeat; look upon it as first hand experience of the corrupt system and how intimidation and bullying overrides justice and law.

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

I agree use your first hand knowledge to get more freemen to do the same. Fuck all the counsil etc they just follow orders we need to take this higher and higher :)

[aryan57]

Agreed, Free Soul, we have have to keep doing what we know deep down inside is right. Follow the intuition that we were born with. It was covered up by alll the school indroctrination we had stuffed down our throats when we were younger.

My son is now having second thoughts about going to this meeting and it looks like he is retreating into illness, the very thing that I feared. I can see it in his eyes. Anyone who has had to care for a mentally ill person will tell you that the eyes give you a sign of what is to come.

It's true, as Yozhik said, that what does not kill you, makes you stronger. I definitely feel more able to cope with things better after my experiences.
Yes, **** all the Councils and their drones. The fight is not over until the last man falls.

[lhaull]

aryan57, My thoughts are with you and your family.
Surely if the councils action are placing undue stress upon your son, leading to illness, then they must let up?
I heard one of the ONLY True Laws, was 'Never to hurt or hinder...'
If they're process is hurting him, surely it is something they need to cease?

Anyone have any info on that thought?

[yozhik]

My feeling is that the Council is acting inhumanely.
They have evidence of his mental illness.
A case worker had been appointed which is proof that they were aware of his mental illness.
They have also acknowledged the presence of a lawful Power of Attorney document, again evidencing that the son is not mentally competent to manage his own legal affairs.

To ignore both their own evidence and lawful documents supporting the incompetence; to then act in a manner which intentionally places stress and duress on the son, is both gross negligence and premeditated infliction of harm and injury.

Certainly grounds for legal action.

Just my layman's opinion ... :rolleyes:

[aryan57]

Things have turned around for me again. My son has now decided that he is too stressed to go to the intended meeting under caution. Do I now write to the council and say he cant go because he feels too stressed? I think I have to do something. He feels that whatever he might say at an interview under caution will be twisted and used against him. He may be right on that.

Any helpful tips are welcomed.

[esse]

Sounds like a good thing aryan, I didn't think him going to that meeting alone was a good vibe - one can always stall for time with these things. I think it's unreasonable for them to expect someone in his state mentally/emotionally to go through something like this. They don't recognize the stress it puts him thru - no because they are without question the angelic choir of reason and compassion... me thinks not somehow though from experience :eek:

[yozhik]

Things have turned around for me again. My son has now decided that he is too stressed to go to the intended meeting under caution. Do I now write to the council and say he cant go because he feels too stressed? I think I have to do something. He feels that whatever he might say at an interview under caution will be twisted and used against him. He may be right on that.

Any helpful tips are welcomed.

Every cloud has a silver lining.
Maybe, this is a blessing in disguise.

If your son is too ill to attend, it shouldn't take much of an effort to acquire a medical certificate stating the same.
This would then make your Power of Attorney extremely relevant.
Armed with a medical certificate stating attendance is not possible for your son and a POA document evidencing that you (legally speaking) are your son, then you would lawfully be authorised to attend the hearing on his behalf.

You son's instincts are correct.
If he attends this interview under caution, I have no doubt in my mind that they would try and use the situation to their benefit and twist, distort and manipulate the conditions to have your son put himself into a situation they would try to take advantage of.

His survival instincts must be very strong. :rolleyes:

[aryan57]

Thank you Esse for your kind message, my thoughts go out to you from time to time.

Yozhik, I have often wondered about the reasons for my sons illness. As you so rightly say, many of us have instincts that we should follow. Just suppose that a persons instincts are crushed by the modern school system. This would create something called cognitive dissonance and lead to illness. Before this storm in a teacup blew up, my son seemed to be the boy my wife had always suspected he was, kind and attentive and full of consideration for others. Now he is back where he was 3-4 years ago, completely paranoid and suspicous of others.

Had a letter today from the Council in which the person actully seems to recognise that I have a lawful power of attorney for my son. They seem to be thawing. Gradually, they are releasing the information I have been looking for. This letter claims my son has two accounts with the Nationwide which contain in excess of £10,000. He does not. No account numbers given!

I have now had more than enough of all this. I have writen back claiming my Fee Schedule of £200 per letter and £250 for every documents I am required to supply. I seem to have done little else for three weeks than to write letters, photocopy letters, dig out old documents and relive what is past. It has destroyed my family life. My family always comes first.