Jesus as the Sun Throughout History

[vinnyharris]

David Icke has posted this in his "Latest Headlines"

Tuesday, 12 May 2009

Jesus as the Sun Throughout History

"In my books and articles, I present the evidence that many aspects of the gospel story about Jesus Christ, and of Christian tradition in general, represent motifs from older astrotheology and solar mythology, specifically reflecting legends and myths regarding the sun gods of antiquity. There remains much confusion concerning this subject, including erroneous claims that this equation of Jesus with the sun only started to be expressed during the 19th century.

This contention that connecting Jesus to the sun constitutes a "modern" phenomenon is easily demonstrated to be false, through the study of ancient texts, including the Bible and works of the early Church fathers, as well as Christian traditions, rituals, architecture and artifacts. From a wide variety of sources, it is clear that associating, identifying and equating Christ with the sun began in ancient times and has continued abundantly over the many centuries since then....."

http://www.davidicke.com/content/blogcategory/30/82/

Here's the excerpt -
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

There's also a "37-page ebook" which I am going to get
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesusasthesun.html

[vinnyharris]

I just found this ...

"Jesus as the Sun God?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4rrYzCZ64&feature=channel_page

[uncia]

Here's the excerpt -
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

I read this excerpt. Its quite informative but the main thing to note is that it is always skirting round the fringes of Christianity, inevitably focusing on the gnostic traditions who were always condemned as heretical, but also the misconceived attempt by the early church to fuse Christianity with pagan festivals, so as to produce a sort of continuiy of religion.

Unfortunately for the hypothesis, not a single iota of proof or reasonable evidence from those acknowledged as central to the Christian faith is produced as evidence of sun worship. The New Testament knows nothing of it.

[disorder2k8]

this is what Zeitgeist part 1 makes a claim for

[1977]

Augustine was a Platonist and understood the distinction that Plato made between the physical sun and the Intellectual Sun, of which the physical sun was only a reflection. Thus his condemnation of the Manichaeans and his exhortation, "There is therefore a Light which made this light of the sun: let us love this Light."—that is, the Logos. The same distinction was expressly made by Akhenaten, who made sure to insert the hieroglyphic equivalent of a footnote next to his inscriptions, clarifying that he was worshipping the power that gave light to the sun.

Murdock seems to have omitted a lot of material that would help her case. Here's a passage from Epiphanius (http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesus_live_100/ch19.html) ("Haer.," li. 22) that I have never seen her mention, despite its immense interest:

"The Saviour was born in the forty-second year of Augustus, King of the Romans, in the consulship of the same Octavi[an]us Augustus (for the thirteenth time) and of Sil[v]anus, according to the consular calendar among the Romans. For it is recorded in it as follows: When these were consuls (I mean Octavi[an]us for the thirteenth time and Sil[v]anus), Christ was born on the sixth day of January after thirteen days of the winter solstice and of the increase of the light and day. This day [of the solstice] the Greeks, I mean the Idolaters, celebrate on the twenty-fifth day of December, a feast called Saturnalia among the Romans, Kronia among the Egyptians, and Kikellia among the Alexandrians.[1] For on the twenty-fifth day of December the division takes place which is the solstice, and the day begins to lengthen its light, receiving an increase, and there are thirteen days of it up to the sixth day of January, until the day of the birth of Christ (a thirtieth of an hour being added to each day), as the wise Ephraim among the Syrians bore witness by this inspired passage (logos) in his commentaries, where he says: ' The advent of our Lord Jesus Christ was thus appointed: [first] his birth according to the flesh, then his perfect incarnation among men, which is called Epiphany, at a distance of thirteen days from the increase of the light; for it needs must have been that this should be a figure of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and of His twelve disciples, who made up the number of the thirteen days of the increase of the light.'

"How many other things in the past and present support and bear witness to this proposition, I mean the Resurrection birth of Christ! Indeed, the leaders of the idol-cults, filled with wiles to deceive the idol-worshippers who believe in them, in many places keep highest festival on this same night of Epiphany, so that they whose hopes are in error may not seek the truth. For instance, at Alexandria, in the Koreion[1] as it is called--an immense temple--that is to say, the Precinct of the Virgin; after they have kept all-night vigil with songs and music, chanting to their idol, when the vigil is over, at cockcrow, they descend with lights into an underground crypt, and carry up a wooden image lying naked on a litter, with the seal of a cross made in gold on its forehead, and on either hand two other similar seals, and on both knees two others, all five seals being similarly made in gold. And they carry round the image itself, circumambulating seven times the innermost temple, to the accompaniment of pipes, tabors and hymns, and with merry-making they carry it down again underground. And if they are asked the meaning of this mystery, they answer and say: 'To-day at this hour the Maiden (Kore), that is, the Virgin, gave birth to the aeon.'

"In the city of Petra also--the metropolis of Arabia which is called Edom in the Scriptures--the same is done, and they sing the praises of the Virgin in the Arab tongue, calling her in Arabic Chaamou, that is, Maiden (Kore), and the Virgin, and him who is born from her Dusares, that is, Alone-begotten (monogenes) of the Lord. This also takes place in the city of Elousa [? Eleusis][1] on the same night just as at Petra and at Alexandria."

[vinnyharris]

1977 "Murdock seems to have omitted a lot of material that would help her case."

That article is pretty long, but, of course, it doesn't contain everything about the subject - the ebook is longer, and Acharya's other books have plenty on the subject. She has 4 books to date totally nearly 2,000 pages. In "Christ in Egypt" (84ff), Acharya not only quotes that passage from Epiphanius, she also dug up the original Greek and showed how it had been edited out of the Migne edition. I wonder where you found that long excerpt, because you didn't cite your source.

[vinnyharris]

this is what Zeitgeist part 1 makes a claim for

You're aware that the author IS a major source for Zeitgeist part 1, right?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/videos.html

[vinnyharris]

She doesn't just focus on "gnostic traditions." She provides data from the Bible and early Church fathers. The point is that regardless of whether or not they were "heretical" Christians were "accused" of worshipping the sun long ago.

uncia "Unfortunately for the hypothesis, not a single iota of proof or reasonable evidence from those acknowledged as central to the Christian faith is produced as evidence of sun worship. The New Testament knows nothing of it."

It appears you didn't even read the excerpt or any other resources about this issue. Your claim is false, as Acharya shows, because the New Testament DOES note something of it. Your argument is also a straw man, because that's not the point of the article, which was to show that, regardless of whether YOU believe Christianity is sun worship, Christians from the earliest times were "accused" of it so much so that they had to attempt to refute it throughout history.

[1977]

That article is pretty long, but, of course, it doesn't contain everything about the subject - the ebook is longer, and Acharya's other books have plenty on the subject. She has 4 books to date totally nearly 2,000 pages. In "Christ in Egypt" (84ff), Acharya not only quotes that passage from Epiphanius, she also dug up the original Greek and showed how it had been edited out of the Migne edition.
Well, then I'm glad she did, because I find it immensely interesting in a number of ways. :) Historically, Epiphanius' Panarion has been completely blacklisted from ever being translated into English, probably because it gives away all of the secrets of sex magick. An English translation (http://www.amazon.com/Panarion-Epiphanius-Salamis-Hammadi-Manichaean/dp/9004170170/) recently came out, but it is so difficult to obtain and expensive ($216 for an excerpt!) that it's almost just as useless.
I wonder where you found that long excerpt, because you didn't cite your source.
Yes, I did cite my source, it was provided in the link: http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesus_live_100/ch19.html

[uncia]

Your claim is false, as Acharya shows, because the New Testament DOES note something of it. Your argument is also a straw man, because that's not the point of the article, which was to show that, regardless of whether YOU believe Christianity is sun worship, Christians from the earliest times were "accused" of it so much so that they had to attempt to refute it throughout history.
The references to Christ as the light of the world, or the "bright morning star" that is a reference to the earlier OT prophecies, are clearly not intended to promote or infer solar worship. The author is just clutching at straws, in fact at any reference whatever to "light" in the bible, which is plainly ridiculous. I found the whole thesis devoid of any insight.

[vinnyharris]

1977 "Yes, I did cite my source"

Yes you did, my bad I missed it.


uncia, I don't think you're understanding the point of the article, if you did actually read it. She is not "grasping at straws" at all, so that comment is ridiculous.

She's tracing the history of the perception of Christ the sun and of Christianity as sun worship - thus, the title "Jesus as the Sun throughout History." It's a SCIENTIFIC STUDY of testimony dating back to the early Church fathers and where the impression was gotten from. You don't seem to be comprehending those facts. - Not an attack just an observation.

If you had actually read the work at hand, you would have come across the evidence she provides regarding the Native traditions, for example, that equate Christ with the sun, as a SUN GOD. Here's a quote from the ebook:

Citing the work of anthropologists Dr. Gary H. Gossen, Dr. Eva Hunt, Dr. James Taggart and Dr. Evon Vogt, Burkhart also relates, “It is widely known that present-day Mesoamerican Indians view Christ as a solar deity... For Christ to become identified with the sun was a logical response...." It may be surprising to many to realize that it is widely known that the Central Americans to this day perceive Jesus as a “solar deity” or sun god. Burkhart continues:

"The late-medieval Christ had obvious solar characteristics, some of which derived directly from Old World solar cults...."

She next explores at length the texts used by the Christian monks in order to teach the natives about Christianity and Christ, using various solar scriptures and symbols.

"It is widely known that present-day Mesoamerican Indians view Christ as a solar deity" - THAT'S the point, to chronicle in a scientific study all of these instances of identifying Christ as the sun and "solar deity."

This all seems to be going over your head and under your feet from where I stand.

[uncia]

"It is widely known that present-day Mesoamerican Indians view Christ as a solar deity" - THAT'S the point, to chronicle in a scientific study all of these instances of identifying Christ as the sun and "solar deity."

This all seems to be going over your head and under your feet from where I stand.
Its well known that when Christ was adopted by various pagans, he became wrongfully admixed with their local gods (due to incomplete missionary work) rather than fully supplanting them as he ought. However the author tries to also portray the bible as inferring Christ was some sort of solar deity which is ludicrous.

[phildee3]

Unfortunately for the hypothesis, not a single iota of proof or reasonable evidence from those acknowledged as central to the Christian faith is produced as evidence of sun worship.



All Christian altars are properly oriented towards the east.
Likewise, a proper Christian burial also faces the sunrise!

Reason:
when Christ comes, he comes from the east.

[uncia]

All Christian altars are properly oriented towards the east.
Likewise, a proper Christian burial also faces the sunrise!

Reason:
when Christ comes, he comes from the east.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
They'll be making Christ the god of thunder next. BTW, most protestant churches of any repute don't have altars, nor do they have burial grounds.

[pri01]

All Christian altars are properly oriented towards the east.
Likewise, a proper Christian burial also faces the sunrise!

Reason:
when Christ comes, he comes from the east.

Absolutely correct. I am very much aware of my surroundings whenever I go about my daily business and often take an interest in looking at buildings and trying to read their story. I often wondered why, churches when observed in relation to their neighbouring buildings appeared to be at odds with the general direction. Now I can't pass a church on a sunny morning without smiling, knowing the reason why.
I don't think that the orientation of the church is exclusive though as I think that the same applies to ancient temples.

[uncia]

The reason that altars in Anglican/Catholic churches face east is because they face towards Jerusalem. Nothing to do with the sun.

Speaking of orientation, churches are nearly always oriented so that the main altar is at the east end of the church, facing Jerusalem, and, not coincidentally, the rising sun. Even if the altar end of the church is not literally in the east, it is called the "east end". In theory at least, the east end of an English parish church could face west!
Source (http://www.britainexpress.com/History/english-parish-churches.htm)

[phildee3]

The reason that altars in Anglican/Catholic churches face east is because they face towards Jerusalem. Nothing to do with the sun.

Source (http://www.britainexpress.com/History/english-parish-churches.htm)



This is modern, Anglican watering down of ancient tradition -
gradually taking Christ out of the Church (a mission which their successors, the Amerikan fundievangelists, have completed).

All Churches in Russia face east!

[phildee3]

"A distinctive liturgy, called the Liturgy of Mar Addai and Mar Mari, developed around 200. The call to worship was made by striking hammers on wooden boards, rather than sounding a bell. Although icons and images of the saints were employed in the early days of the church, simple crosses later replaced crucifixes (by the time of the Mongols) and images came to be prohibited. Worshippers prayed standing, with outstretched hands, facing east" (my emphasis).

http://www.oxuscom.com/ch-of-east.htm

[phildee3]

"It is the Eastern Christian tradition to worship God, who is the light of the world, facing East where the Sun rises and spreads its light. Our belief is also that the second coming of Christ is from the East. As such the sanctuary or the Nadubha must be on the eastern end of the church so that the worshipers face East and the main entrance on the West."

http://home1.inet.tele.dk/moebjerg/en-oriental.htm

[phildee3]

Written by Msgr. Ronald Beshara, S.T.L., J.C.L.

This aerial view of an earlier temple floor plan highlights the three focal points of worship in the Maronite Qurbono – namely:

Bema: originally located in the middle of the temple nave around which the people of God gathered to hear the Scriptures read.

Altar: originally concealed by curtains and located in the east-end of the temple at which the Eucharist was offered with the celebrant facing East.

East Wall: originally apsed and arched to suggest the heavenly kingdom from which Christ, the Light of the world, at the second coming will call the human family to glory.

http://www.vineyardofthelord.com/maronitevocations/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=2&limitstart=8

[vinnyharris]

uncia "However the author tries to also portray the bible as inferring Christ was some sort of solar deity which is ludicrous."

uncia "The reason that altars in Anglican/Catholic churches face east is because they face towards Jerusalem. Nothing to do with the sun."

"Ezekiel (c. 586 BCE) related that the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews continued to worship the sun, as at 8:16:

"And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east."

In this scripture, it is not just the common people but the very priests themselves who are engaging in sun worship."
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

"Christ is the Morning Light, the rising Sun, Mal. 4:2."

Even Tertullian had to respond:

Tertullian's discussion of purported Christian sun worship was so clear that under its entry for "Tertullian" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:

"The 'Ad nationes' has for its entire object the refutation of calumnies against Christians [such as] You say we worship the sun; so do you." (CE, XIV, 521.)

In Ad Nationes (I, XIII, 1), Tertullian writes:

"THE CHARGE OF WORSHIPPING THE SUN MET BY A RETORT.

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity." (Roberts, ANCL, XI, 449-450.)

If Christians weren't being accused of worshipping the sun then, there would be no reason to refute it!! Again, the author traces the history of the perception of Christ the sun and of Christianity as sun worship - thus, the title "Jesus as the Sun throughout History." It's a SCIENTIFIC STUDY of testimony dating back to the early Church fathers and where the impression came from. You don't seem to be comprehending those facts. - Not an attack just an observation.

The author has properly chronicled in a scientific study many instances of identifying Christ as the sun and "solar deity."

You are free to be as biased against these facts and evidence as you wish but, nobody can deny their existence. It's well documented. The fact remains that Jesus was equated with the sun throughout history as the excerpt and e-book demonstrates. There's no refutation against this evidence that will ever suffice.

[1977]

Christ is the productive and beneficent power of nature as Light and Life, of which the Sun is its most potent visible symbol. To dispute this would be to brand the very words of the Apostle as lies when he declares of the Logos, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

Josephus (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/josephus/l/bl_josephus_JW_essenes.htm) also mentions this of the Essenes—who, of course, were not Christians, although many scholars speculate that Jesus himself as a member:

And as for their piety towards God, it is very extraordinary; for before sun-rising they speak not a word about profane matters, but put up certain prayers which they have received from their forefathers, as if they made a supplication for its rising.

Edit: Oh man, I thought of another one. Has this been mentioned? From the Clementine Homilies (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_VIII/Pseudo-Clementine_Literature/The_Clementine_Homilies/Homily_II/Chapter_23):

There was one John, a day-baptist,[1] who was also, according to the method of combination, the forerunner of our Lord Jesus; and as the Lord had twelve apostles, bearing the number of the twelve months of the sun, so also he, John, had thirty chief men, fulfilling the monthly reckoning of the moon, in which number was a certain woman called Helena,[2] that not even this might be without a dispensational significance. For a woman, being half a man, made up the imperfect number of the triacontad; as also in the case of the moon, whose revolution does not make the complete course of the month.

[uncia]

The fact remains that Jesus was equated with the sun throughout history as the excerpt and e-book demonstrates. There's no refutation against this evidence that will ever suffice.

If you read the verse immediately preceding Ezekiel 8:16 that you cited it says this:

Eze 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man? turn thee yet again, [and] thou shalt see greater abominations than these

Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, [were] about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Eze 8:17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

It all goes to show that anyone who asserts that Jesus is a solar deity is a willful calumniator. Those in NT times who practiced it did it out of ignorance.

You said: "If Christians weren't being accused of worshipping the sun then, there would be no reason to refute it." However all you are doing is citing the refutation and trying to make out that there is no "smoke without fire." There is smoke without fire - when it comes out of the mouth of Satan.

[phildee3]

The fact remains that Jesus was equated with the sun throughout history as the excerpt and e-book demonstrates. There's no refutation against this evidence that will ever suffice.






Christ is the productive and beneficent power of nature as Light and Life, of which the Sun is its most potent visible symbol. To dispute this would be to brand the very words of the Apostle as lies when he declares of the Logos, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."



Well said 1077.

Just because we face the sunrise does not mean we are worshipping the sun itself, nor even it's light, but the life-force which is transmitted through it - which is the logos.

[uncia]

Well said 1077.
... but the life-force which is transmitted through it - which is the logos.
Pardon? The logos is not transmitted by the sun, nor does the sun given off anything other than electromagnetic radiation.

[phildee3]

The logos is not transmitted by the sun,



If you were to "turn off" the sun there would be no life on Earth, even if you were to maintain temperature.

"I am the way the truth and the life "- Jesus Christ (as the logos).



nor does the sun given off anything other than electromagnetic radiation.



Electromagnetic radiation, at a particular frequency, is light -
and in that light is life.

[marpat]

David Icke has posted this in his "Latest Headlines"



http://www.davidicke.com/content/blogcategory/30/82/

Here's the excerpt -
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

There's also a "37-page ebook" which I am going to get
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesusasthesun.html

Hardly the latest headlines. People knew this a very long time ago.

[phildee3]

The liturgical colour, used during ordinary time in the Church calender, is green - the colour of vegetation rich in chlorophyll, produced by photosynthesis.

[uncia]

If you were to "turn off" the sun there would be no life on Earth, even if you were to maintain temperature.

"I am the way the truth and the life "- Jesus Christ (as the logos).



Electromagnetic radiation, at a particular frequency, is light -
and in that light is life.
You are confusing what is created by God to sustain life, and life itself. The logos is that Spirit that gives life to our spirits. Our spirit is what gives life to our bodies.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

[phildee3]

You are confusing what is created by God to sustain life, and life itself.



No I'm not.
Those who think that Christianity is literally sun worship are doing that.
The sun is a physical, temporal, created thing.



The logos is that Spirit that gives life to our spirits.



No.
Our spirits are not created things. They are eternal.



Our spirit is what gives life to our bodies.



Yes, the infinite enlivens the finite,
but how does infinite spirit (ie. life-force itself) cross the divide between the immortal and the mortal realms?

What is the vehicle?

Electromagnetic radiation, -
photons!

[uncia]

Our spirits are not created things. They are eternal.

One must distinguish soul and spirit here.
Ecc 12:7 .... and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Our souls survive our death. However they are certainly created, and they can also be destroyed in hell.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Yes, the infinite enlivens the finite,
but how does infinite spirit (ie. life-force itself) cross the divide between the immortal and the mortal realms?

What is the vehicle?

Electromagnetic radiation!
No. The life is in the blood.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

The blood does not depend on electromagnetic radiation, but upon the body. The body depends upon the sun, but the spirit, which is in the blood, is itself made alive unto God by the logos.

The identification of God with his creation is idolatry. It is the very sun-worship which allegation of gave rise to this thread.

[phildee3]

life is in the blood.



...and how does it get into the blood?

It is transported across the "great divide" by photons and is absorbed by plants through photosynthesis which is the basis of our food chain!

[uncia]

...and how does it get into the blood?

It is transported across the "great divide" by photons and is absorbed by plants through photosynthesis which is the basis of our food chain!
Eh? Photons travel from the sun to earth. They don't cross any "great divide". I have no idea what you are talking out.

[phildee3]

Photons travel from the sun to earth. They don't cross any "great divide".



Yes, you are right.
but they do carry life-force energy from the sun to the earth.
Spiritual science tells us that it actually comes through the central, galactic sun and that our sol is only a relay station.
I can see that the means of transport between them could be a modified photon but the actual crossing over must be a "quantum leap" - Einstein's "folding of spacetime."


While sun worship would be idolatry, the sun is worthy of veneration.
It is quite easy for an outsider to mistake veneration for worship.

[uncia]

Yes, you are right.
but they do carry life-force energy from the sun to the earth.
Spiritual science tells us that it actually comes through the central, galactic sun and that our sol is only a relay station.
I can see that the means of transport between them could be a modified photon but the actual crossing over must be a "quantum leap" - Einstein's "folding of spacetime."


While sun worship would be idolatry, the sun is worthy of veneration.
It is quite easy for an outsider to mistake veneration for worship.
ven⋅er⋅ate
  /ˈvɛnəˌreɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ven-uh-reyt] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -at⋅ed, -at⋅ing.
to regard or treat with reverence; revere.

revere

re⋅vere
1  /rɪˈvɪər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-veer] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -vered, -ver⋅ing.
to regard with respect tinged with awe; venerate: The child revered her mother.

You are engaging in sophistry, I think. You need to work out what you are trying to communicate. The only use of the word venerate is connected with persons. "Venerating" artefacts is sheer idolatry, although one could be in awe of them. Furthermore, your physics is incomprehensible.

[phildee3]

"Venerating" artefacts is sheer idolatry.



The word idolatry comes (by haplology) from the Greek word eidololatria, a compound of eidolon, "image" or "figure", and latreia, "worship." - Wikipedia.

Only worship can be idolatrous.
"To regard with respect tinged with awe" is not idolatry.

And if veneration is worship then how can one venerate another person without committing idolatry?



your physics is incomprehensible.



To you, perhaps, at the present time.

[phildee3]

You need to work out what you are trying to communicate.



Why?
I'm not trying to communicate anything. I don't have an agenda.
I'm just exploring the connection (and possible connections) between the sun and Christianity.

The sophist, obviously, would be the one to "work out what you s/he is trying to communicate."

[uncia]

And if veneration is worship then how can one venerate another person without committing idolatry?

I did not say veneration was worship. I said it was only used in connection with persons. To venerate an object is to attribute animacy to it. OK, if I was only venerating my car, no one would think anything of it. But to "venerate the sun" is to invite the allegation of solar worship.

[phildee3]

if I was only venerating my car, no one would think anything of it.



Only in a culture where car veneration is common and thus well-understood.
In a sun-venerating culture, you would be seen as the idolator!

To "venerate your car" is to invite the allegation of car worship from all but 20th/21st century westerners - a tiny fraction of the world's people over the past 2000 years!

[phildee3]

I did not say veneration was worship. I said it was only used in connection with persons.



Where did you get this idea from?
Icons and artifacts are venerated.
Would you not venerate the Turin shroud if you were convinced of it's authenticity?
Do you not venerate Jerusalem?
If you have ever used the phrase "the Holy Land" you have venerated a non-person.

[phildee3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPEY9G6Y2w

[vinnyharris]

uncia in post 23, all you've demonstrated is that you are a Christian who rigidly adheres to your biases attempting to use your beliefs and euphoria to trump evidence throughout history that actually exists. No amount of denial will ever change the fact that Jesus and Christianity have been equated with the sun throughout history as the excerpt and e-book demonstrates. There's no refutation against this evidence that will ever suffice.

The argument that Christians worshipped the sun out of ignorance isn't a strong argument since they're still doing it to this day i.e. Christmas and Easter are the most popular holidays for Christianity and yet both are well known to be astrotheological celebrations popular in Pagan religion thousands of years before Christianity.

The evidence that Christianity is rooted in astrotheology is overwhelming and no amount of denial will suffice - not even blaming it all on Satan as Christians can't even provide valid evidence to substantiate claims for Jesus and they don't even try to substantiate claims for a supernatural being named Satan or Lucifer or God. The mountain of evidence that actually exists, much of it from Christians themselves, demonstrates that Christianity is rooted in astrotheology.

[vinnyharris]

uncia "The logos is not transmitted by the sun, nor does the sun given off anything other than electromagnetic radiation."

Acharya goes into great detail in "Christ in Egypt" (http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html) (and all of her works) concerning "The Word/ Logos" and how it was used 4,400 years ago in Egypt on the walls on the Pyramid Texts. "The Word/ Logos" did not originate with Christianity - same as almost everything else about it.

Anyway, I always find it amusing when Christians go to great lengths to down play the sun's role in our lives in any way they can - it's a desperate attempt at hand-waving dismissals.

That is the tactics a Catholic Bishop tried to use in a radio show with Acharya calling the sun "a giant ball of gas" - she didn't put up with it. Here's a short youtube video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP3g66IdSVQ&feature=channel

First of all, the sun is far more interesting than Mose's bogus burning bush that only Moses could see as we can ALL see the sun. The sun has been burning and creating light, heat, photosynthesis & LIFE on planet earth for 4.5 billion years. And, as if photosynthesis wasn't enough for life on the planet it also gives us the air to breathe. So, it quickly becomes clear that without the sun life on earth would not exist as we know it. The ancients understood this on some level thousands of years ago which is why they VENERATED the sun.

uncia "One must distinguish soul and spirit here."

Lets actually make an attempt to substantiate the claim that a soul and spirit exists with valid evidence before anyone goes off on a tangent making un-substantiated claims.

[uncia]

Only in a culture where car veneration is common and thus well-understood.

It is in this culture. What it means is, that it has served you well throughout the years.


To "venerate your car" is to invite the allegation of car worship from all but 20th/21st century westerners - a tiny fraction of the world's people over the past 2000 years!
I disagree. See above.

[uncia]

Icons and artifacts are venerated.

Only by Idolators. I am an iconoclast.

[phildee3]

4098

On the ceiling of the Coptic Christian church in Aswan, Egypt Jesus assumes his role as the guardian of the (star) gate of the Sun, which is surrounded by 12 portals (apostles). Jesus as guardian or initiator of the Sun-Door to Everything.
http://www.williamhenry.net/stargatesurfing.html

[uncia]

uncia "The logos is not transmitted by the sun, nor does the sun given off anything other than electromagnetic radiation."

Acharya goes into great detail in "Christ in Egypt" (http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html) (and all of her works) concerning "The Word/ Logos" and how it was used 4,400 years ago in Egypt on the walls on the Pyramid Texts. "The Word/ Logos" did not originate with Christianity - same as almost everything else about it.
The son of God, Christ, was only properly taught about by the prophets in the second century BC - see Enoch and Daniel - although revealed down the ages by other prophets previously in the Old Testament. The word "logos" being an ordinary Greek word was probably frequently used. The Eqyptians had a lot of interaction with the Greeks down through the ages, so I can well understand it.

[phildee3]

I am an iconoclast.



Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword -
and you have chosen the path of destruction.

[phildee3]

4099

[phildee3]

"Consciousness does not shine by itself. It shines by a light beyond it in which it appears, which gives it being."

http://kyotoobserver.vox.com/library/post/gnostic-jesus-or-jesus-the-sun-behind-the-sun.html

[uncia]

Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword -
and you have chosen the path of destruction.
So what? Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers in the temple. That's what these idolatrous churches do: take in your money and build idols. My preferred way of dying is at the hands of the state: such a death would be accounted martyrdom.

[phildee3]

That's what these idolatrous churches do: take in your money and build idols.



There are many poor churches that use icons,
there are many rich ones that don't.

This argument is a non-starter!!

[uncia]

There are many poor churches that use icons,
there are many rich ones that don't.

This argument is a non-starter!!
Wherever there is an icon, it took someone to pay for it. If in a poor church, it means the poor man's donation was used.

[phildee3]

Wherever there is an icon, it took someone to pay for it. If in a poor church, it means the poor man's donation was used.



No. It means that the "poor man" painted it!
You've never experienced poverty, have you?
Until you experience the total renunciation of worldly values, you have not experienced true Christianity.

[uncia]

No. It means that the "poor man" painted it!
You've never experienced poverty, have you?
Until you experience the total renunciation of worldly values, you have not experienced true Christianity.
Eh? Jesus never said you had to give away ALL your possessions. Even the apostles kept their fishing boats and their houses. When I was young some ministers tried to get me to forsake my job for the sake of Christianity. What BS! I did not go through 18 years of education not to get a job. Fact is that the amount of money you have is irrelevant. What counts is that your heart is the right place.

[phildee3]

Even the apostles kept their fishing boats and their houses.



Really? I don't think so!
Where did you get this from?

Read Matthew ch. 10.



When I was young some ministers tried to get me to forsake my job for the sake of Christianity. What BS! I did not go through 18 years of education not to get a job.

Fact is that the amount of money you have is irrelevant.



Having, and working in, a job is irrelevant.
How much money you retain for yourself is.

[uncia]

Really? I don't think so!
Where did you get this from?

Read Matthew ch. 10.

Read John 21.


Having, and working in, a job is irrelevant.
How much money you retain for yourself is.
Not necessarily so. What counts is what you spend on yourself in the way of frivolities etc. I spend almost nothing on myself - in fact most people on the dole spend more money on themselves than me. Most Catholics I see at the Catholic church have far more money than me. If you are criticizing me, think again.

[vinnyharris]

Well, lets make an effort to get back on topic here ...

The author is tracing the history of the perception of Christ as the sun and of Christianity as sun worship - thus, the title "Jesus as the Sun throughout History." It's a SCIENTIFIC STUDY of testimony dating back to the early Church fathers and where the impression came from.

The Bible

In the present analysis of Judeo-Christian astrotheological underpinnings, let us start therefore with the Old Testament, in which God is depicted as the creator of and power behind the sun, thus making the solar orb an expression of the Lord's divinity - a notion that was not lost on the Israelitish peoples.

In the book of Job, traditionally considered one of the oldest texts in the Bible, we find God reiterated as the power behind the sun, as at 9:7, which refers to him "who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars..." Job contains other astronomical, astrological or astrotheological knowledge, as in the discussion of the "Mazzaroth" or Zodiac at 38:22:

"Can you lead forth the Maz'zaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?"

Strong's Concordance (H4216) defines mazzaroth or mazzarah as "the 12 signs of the Zodiac and their 36 associated constellations." The "Bear with its children" refers to the constellation of Arcturus or Ursa Major and the three stars in its tail. (McClintock, 381)
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

[uncia]

God reiterated as the power behind the sun
Case in point. What is your point?

[vinnyharris]

Case in point. What is your point?

If you read the full excerpt you'd already know the point. All you've demonstrated here thus far is your inability to comprehend the point of the excerpt - even the title should give you a hint: Jesus as the Sun
throughout History.

I recommend reading the book, Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel, by Glen Taylor, Continuum International Publishing Group, 1993.

[uncia]

If you read the full excerpt you'd already know the point. All you've demonstrated here thus far is your inability to comprehend the point of the excerpt - even the title should give you a hint: Jesus as the Sun
throughout History.
Well why are you quoting a passage from the bible that says that God is the power behind the sun? No-one is denying that the ancient Israelites relapsed into idolatry of the sun. The bible admits as much. It seems that you are doing here is trying to infer that it was part of orthodox Jewish or Christian doctrine.

All manner of heresy may be attributed to heretics, but you have to prove not only that people worshipped the sun, but that they were counted amongst the orthodox.

[kidsarocker]

If you read the verse immediately preceding Ezekiel 8:16 that you cited it says this:



It all goes to show that anyone who asserts that Jesus is a solar deity is a willful calumniator. Those in NT times who practiced it did it out of ignorance.

You said: "If Christians weren't being accused of worshipping the sun then, there would be no reason to refute it." However all you are doing is citing the refutation and trying to make out that there is no "smoke without fire." There is smoke without fire - when it comes out of the mouth of Satan.

Yeah Satan the Great Deceiver

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist

[kidsarocker]

Well, lets make an effort to get back on topic here ...

The author is tracing the history of the perception of Christ as the sun and of Christianity as sun worship - thus, the title "Jesus as the Sun throughout History." It's a SCIENTIFIC STUDY of testimony dating back to the early Church fathers and where the impression came from.

Let me ask a non believer a question

What created the universe? was it an accident? if so then how can something created by chance have every single property and functions working as it should - did you know that if just one molecule was a degree out, the whole universe would not exist.

Now answer another question - what do you think is keeping the universe working? Science only answers HOW things work but it never answers WHY it works this way or where the power/control comes from

[brainfreeze]

Let me ask a non believer a question

What created the universe? was it an accident? if so then how can something created by chance have every single property and functions working as it should - did you know that if just one molecule was a degree out, the whole universe would not exist.

Now answer another question - what do you think is keeping the universe working? Science only answers HOW things work but it never answers WHY it works this way or where the power/control comes from

I can't remember the guys name, but Limelady started a thread on him awhile back. In that thread is an explanation about the force created with the big bang which scientist have now proved as a true existing force which governs us. Some people call that force God. I'm sorry, I don't have it in me to be the teacher, I don't have the patience or the know how to delivery information so that it's understandable without a conflict ensuing on forums. Jeff someone was the guys name, I think. Have a look through some of limeladys threads she started on her profile, you're bound to find it.

[danceswithbunnies]

Interesting..

Some resources that you all might enjoy:

Jesus Christ Sun of God (book will have to see if this is on scribd)
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Sun-God-Cosmology/dp/0835606961/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242743928&sr=8-8


Online:

Former fundamentalist pastor concludes that
Jesus is the Sun:
http://jesusastrotheology.netfirms.com/cover_page_jesus_path_sun.htm

Website demonstrating "Sacred" Geometry
http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/index.htm
(main site)
http://www.jesus8880.com/index.htm

[kidsarocker]

I can't remember the guys name, but Limelady started a thread on him awhile back. In that thread is an explanation about the force created with the big bang which scientist have now proved as a true existing force which governs us. Some people call that force God. I'm sorry, I don't have it in me to be the teacher, I don't have the patience or the know how to delivery information so that it's understandable without a conflict ensuing on forums. Jeff someone was the guys name, I think. Have a look through some of limeladys threads she started on her profile, you're bound to find it.

Thanks I'll check it out

[vinnyharris]

Well why are you quoting a passage from the bible that says that God is the power behind the sun? No-one is denying that the ancient Israelites relapsed into idolatry of the sun. The bible admits as much. It seems that you are doing here is trying to infer that it was part of orthodox Jewish or Christian doctrine.

All manner of heresy may be attributed to heretics, but you have to prove not only that people worshipped the sun, but that they were counted amongst the orthodox.

If you actually read the article you would've seen it in the 2nd paragraph:

"The exploration of Christ as a solar figure includes a study of ancient sun worship not only in the Pagan world but also in Israel, as exhibited by the solar nature of Jesus’s purported Father, the Israelite god Yahweh. Demonstrating the copious substantiation for Israelite sun worship, especially as concerns the main Jewish god, in Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel, Rev. Dr. J. Glen Taylor, a theologian and professor of Old Testament and Biblical Proclamation at Wycliffe College, remarks:

"This book is a slightly revised version of my doctoral dissertation entitled 'Solar Worship in the Biblical World' which was submitted to the Graduate School of Yale University in the Spring of 1989. As may be judged from the title of that work, I had at one time planned to cover more territory than sun worship in ancient Israel, but found the material pertaining to ancient Israel so vast that I never got beyond it." (Taylor, 7)
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

[kidsarocker]

uncia in post 23, all you've demonstrated is that you are a Christian who rigidly adheres to your biases attempting to use your beliefs and euphoria to trump evidence throughout history that actually exists. No amount of denial will ever change the fact that Jesus and Christianity have been equated with the sun throughout history as the excerpt and e-book demonstrates. There's no refutation against this evidence that will ever suffice.

The argument that Christians worshipped the sun out of ignorance isn't a strong argument since they're still doing it to this day i.e. Christmas and Easter are the most popular holidays for Christianity and yet both are well known to be astrotheological celebrations popular in Pagan religion thousands of years before Christianity.

The evidence that Christianity is rooted in astrotheology is overwhelming and no amount of denial will suffice - not even blaming it all on Satan as Christians can't even provide valid evidence to substantiate claims for Jesus and they don't even try to substantiate claims for a supernatural being named Satan or Lucifer or God. The mountain of evidence that actually exists, much of it from Christians themselves, demonstrates that Christianity is rooted in astrotheology.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1038172125692
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Arrivals/40497487822?v=app_2392950137&viewas=0#/video/video.php?v=1038175565778