PDA

View Full Version : Jim Shaw


zyphus
12-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Something doesn't sit right with me over Jim Shaws claims and I would like to know what the Masons think of him.

I read over an excerpt of his story about when he was (supposedly) interviewed by the Supreme Council In D.C. and the now almost infamous part of where he describes one of his fellow Mason's as going 'higher' than the 33 degrees. There's a glaring error in his story though..

INTERVIEWED BY THE SUPREME COUNCIL

The first day was devoted to registration, briefings and interviews. We were called into one of the offices, one at a time, and interviewed by three members of the Supreme Council.

When my turn came I was ushered into the office and seated. The very first question I was asked was, "Of what religion are you?" Not long before this I would have answered with something like, "I believe the Ancient Mysteries, the 'Old Religion,' and I believe in reincarnation." However, without thinking at all about how to answer, I found myself saying, "I am a Christian."

Then, to my sup rise and theirs, I asked them, "Are you men born again?" The man in charge quickly stopped me by saying, "We're not here to talk about that - we are here to ask you questions."

After they sent me back out I sat down and thought about it. When the next man came out, I asked him, "Did they ask you if you are a Christian?" He said, "Yes, they did."

"What did you tell them?" I asked, and he replied, "I told them 'Hell no, and I never intend to be!'"

Then he said a strange thing to me, "They said I'm going higher," and he left through a different door, looking pleased.

They didn't ask Jim Shaw if he was a Christian though, they asked him "Of what religion are you?".. Are the questions likely to change and would they specifically target one religion?

Can Jim Shaw actually prove he was at least a 32nd degree Mason?

luciferhorus
12-05-2009, 01:17 PM
Can Jim Shaw actually prove he was at least a 32nd degree Mason?

I have read his testimony and it is widely circulated on the Internet, I think that if he had not been a Mason that some Mason would have come up with this criticism by now; further since David Icke is being accused by the Mason Thelonious on another thread as being 'a somewhat colorful conman making a few bucks off the gullible (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64605&page=10.;' I must point out that duing the 33rd degree ceremony which Shaw desrcibes that he was asked for a very large amount of money in order to obtain the degree which he had to borrow off a fellow Mason.

Buying pompous degrees and titles is quite common in America, and I understand that you can buy a PhD degree for $100, but over here in Europe we tend to think that this is just the activities of colorful conmen 'making a few bucks off the gullible.'

One simply cannot purchase the Tree of Life, or buy one's way into the Holy City; this cannot be obtained by Capitalist coin.

LL

Lux



The Kaballah Simplified. Part 1: The Holy Trinity.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60278

The Kaballah Simplified. Part 2: The 33 and 38 degrees of knowledge
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60547

_________________

http://www.masonicproducts.com/masonic-supplies.gif

http://www.masonicsupplyshop.com/product_images/z/7052__52589_thumb.jpg

Above: $145

http://www.masonicsupplyshop.com/product_images/k/k071hweb__86655_thumb.jpg

Above: pointy hat $50

http://www.masonicsupplyshop.com/product_images/n/past_master_apron_309b__38711_thumb.jpg


Above: $120

http://www.masonicsupplyshop.com/product_images/g/mantle__34425_thumb.jpg

Dress: Price on application.

http://www.masonicsupplyshop.com/product_images/i/mas894bl__98179_thumb.jpg

Above: $995

____________

Or alternatively:


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0952614766.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Above $20 or download it free from numerous internet sites such as:

http://rapidshare.de/files/27526774/tbs.zip


___________

Comandante Lucifer

http://th05.deviantart.com/fs25/300W/f/2008/148/2/8/Sigil_of_Lucifer_by_Monation.jpg


Prince of the Angels, Lord of Lords, Master and Commander of the 72 Goetic demons, bearer of the Key of Solomon, etc., etc.

Ex offico (in the office of) Christos, Pontifex Maximus, Servus Servorum Dei, Judge of Judgement Day, Grand Commander on earth of the armies of Heaven and numerous other pompous titles.

http://www.piusxiipope.info/popeseal.gif

____________

To everyone who hears my sacred dictates, if anyone adds to or subtracts from them, may they have added to them a multitude of plagues and lose their right the Tree of Life, and to the Holy City.

stewart edwards
12-05-2009, 01:29 PM
One simply cannot purchase the Tree of Life, or buy one's way into the Holy City; this cannot be obtained by Capitalist coin.
On this we agree.

Re the buying rank thing you mentioned, there is a different slant to it under ugle. Mike or another ugle mason please correct me if I am misinformed. You have to work hard and wait a long time to get your honours, but when you do you have to pay about £500 for two aprons. Some only buy one due to the cost and it can be frowned upon by some. I was first introduced to this by two masons laughing about it in the pub how being honoured costs you £500. But it has a serious side to it. You work hard, your achievements get recognised, and then you can be faced with financial embarrisement. To me this is not an honour, it is were it would be free. It is a control mechanism. Plain white aprons all around is all that is required. Anything else is pure ego.

thelonious
12-05-2009, 02:14 PM
Can Jim Shaw actually prove he was at least a 32nd degree Mason?

Shaw was a 32° Scottish Rite Mason, and was a Knight Commander of the Court of Honour (KCCH).

He lied about being a 33° Mason, Past Master of All Scottish Rite Bodies, Past Master of the Blue Lodge, having to borrow money to pay for degrees, high degree costs, and many other things.

The story about going "higher" than the 33° is bogus. At the time Shaw resigned from Masonry, he was a 32° KCCH, and had never been invited to receive the 33°.

Please see this article (which is actually Chapter 5 of Bro. Arturo Dehoyos' book "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?"):

http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/deHoyos-chapter5.htm

The link also has photocopies of Shaw's membership record showing his fees and dues paid.

zyphus
12-05-2009, 02:38 PM
So he was at least a 32° Mason then.

Thanks for replies and the links Lux and Thelonius..

luciferhorus
12-05-2009, 03:28 PM
On this we agree.

Re the buying rank thing you mentioned, there is a different slant to it under ugle. Mike or another ugle mason please correct me if I am misinformed. You have to work hard and wait a long time to get your honours, but when you do you have to pay about £500 for two aprons. Some only buy one due to the cost and it can be frowned upon by some. I was first introduced to this by two masons laughing about it in the pub how being honoured costs you £500. But it has a serious side to it. You work hard, your achievements get recognised, and then you can be faced with financial embarrisement. To me this is not an honour, it is were it would be free. It is a control mechanism. Plain white aprons all around is all that is required. Anything else is pure ego.

Sicne we are discussing eating from the Tree of Life and entrance to the Holy City, and since these terms can only be understood gnostically and are thus entwined with the 'magickal experience,' which cannot be bought or sold, a few question are begged.

http://www.american-buddha.com/aeyes11d.jpg

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.".

1: Why all the strange (and expensive) uniforms and aprons to cover your loins?

Surely the act of covering one's loins is an act of shame (an indication of sin) which signifies that you have been barred from eating of the Tree and that you are thus recognised by the angel with the flaming sword (myself in this case) as being 'banned' from the Garden of Paradise. The path to the tree is of course forever barred to those who in shame cover their nakedness with aprons.

http://www.gnostic.org/gospel_thomas/selected/images/stuck_edward_400p.jpg

http://houseofecstasy.com/images/great_rite.jpg

2: Why are there only males in the Masonic rituals? Why do women have their separate lodges?


Since the gnostic understanding of the Tree of Life is hidden from those who do not partake in sex magick, surely it would be essential to 'also' include women in your magickal rituals 'as well' as men.

http://gayswithoutborders.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/gaypaganism.jpg

I am not at all condemning homosexual sex magick; in fact I would consider it to be is essential, but like Crowley I tend to consider exclusive homosexuality (as opposed to bisexuality) to only allow one a 'part' understanding of the Tree.

Further why are Masons so unsexy?

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/images/stories/viceregal/viceregal-010.jpg


Where I think that Crowley got it right is that both men and women were involved in his magickal workings, whereas Masonry is certainly a cult of men and having read many of their rituals, I consider them mumbo-jumbo, a total non-sense; I fail to find the correspondses with the paths of the tree, and frankly they appear to be entirely a-sexual. Boring in fact.

http://mediaphoto.doctissimo.fr/dossiers/s/o/sophiebelle/Photos-de-nue/IM-894517-Naked-Witch-II.jpg


I tend to think that Crowley was correct that the Masonic rituals are only useful as tiolet paper, and that no matter how much you pay for your rituals and uniforms, that you would be a lot better off avoiding the cult entirely and that your degrees are simply degrees of ignorance.

To use Thelonious' language Masons are simply the 'gullible' being sold nonsense by colorful con-men; and not even beautiful, sexy conmen at that; but rather a bunch of boring pompous old fools.

http://weiserantiquarian.com/catalogfortyseven/35388b.jpg


Frankly since this is the David Icke forum, I tend to get the impression that there are those (particularly) among the Christians who consider Masonry to be some form of wierd Satanic sex cult; if it were I can assure you that your membership would not be in decline and full of pompous, arrogant, boring old Capitalist devils obsessed with the god of Capital.

http://www.newprophecy.net/High_priestess_21.jpg

Much as I agree with Icke's analysis of Masonry being a Capitalist cult which includes many of the higher echelons of the police, military, loan-sharking and state terrorist, narco-terrorist militia, and is a totally malevolent cult, it certainly seems to represent the anti-thesis of sex magick; the simple fact that Masons swear oaths not to have sex with each others wives is a simple testament to their hatred of polyamoury.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z145/FestivalGB/Goth/HighPriestess.jpg

Why on earth would you not wish to share your partners? Frankly this shows that the Masons are iognorant of the gnostic and sexual understanding of the Tree and the Holy City, and are thus practitioners of the 'sin of restriction;' it is no wonder that you are forbidden to enter and that you wear aprons as a sign of your shame.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/aspencross/wicca-2.jpg

It is very common for those at the higher echelons of a cult religion to believe that 'nothing is forbidden' to them, but for their cult slaves, a different set of rules apply and everything that is 'good' is forbidden; these are simply control methods that a master imposes on a slave.

Regards


Comandante Lucifer
__________________
Prince of Angels, Bearer of the flaming sword.

stewart edwards
12-05-2009, 04:05 PM
2: Why are there only males in the Masonic rituals? Why do women have their separate lodges?There are various comasonic fraternities, and indeed there was some political rucus in France recently when some lodges in one fraternity initiated women. There are I understand further independent comasonic lodges.


Since the gnostic understanding of the Tree of Life is hidden from those who do not partake in sex magick,Dont think so luciferhorus. It may be the path that you took, but it is not the only path.


surely it would be essential to 'also' include women in your magickal rituals 'as well' as men. Would be the sensible option in my opinion.


I am not at all condemning homosexual sex magick; in fact I would consider it to be is essential,It isnt essential nor even necessary, see my reponnse two above.

Why on earth would you not wish to share your partners?Many possible reasons. One could be that it could dilute energy. Another could be that, lets think about this one, the partners made a promise to each other. And a third, love transcends sex. There are many paths luciferhorus.

What you write may have worked for you, but following it could also easily destabilise someone who was not internally secure and lead them to a breakdown or lonliness. To appreciate the power of sex magic you have to be a pretty advanced soul, and dabbling in it is not for everyone. And like the Eyes wide shut picture you posted what you describe does appear to be dark magic luciferhorus. Not a criticism for I recognise the importance of both dark and light, but the dark path is not for everyone, and at this specific time in human history is likely to lead to planetary resetting. Ask your master if he would prefer the planet to reset and have to rebuild from microscopic scratch or whether he would prefer to reach the next level while retaining his accumulated power base? If he prefers the latter then is he happy with what you recommend? I would be suprised.

mike martin
13-05-2009, 01:25 AM
Something doesn't sit right with me over Jim Shaws claims and I would like to know what the Masons think of him.
It may well be that American Masons know who he is but as an English Mason he is on the same level as Albert Pike for relevence, in other words "some bloke in America".

I only became aware of his name through sites like this one.

Mike

mike martin
13-05-2009, 01:39 AM
I have read his testimony and it is widely circulated on the Internet, I think that if he had not been a Mason that some Mason would have come up with this criticism by now; further since David Icke is being accused by the Mason Thelonious on another thread as being 'a somewhat colorful conman making a few bucks off the gullible (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64605&page=10.;' I must point out that duing the 33rd degree ceremony which Shaw desrcibes that he was asked for a very large amount of money in order to obtain the degree which he had to borrow off a fellow Mason.

well it appears that he was a Mason although not quite the Mason that he claims. Here are a couple of opinions I found about him from Masons in the States:
From: http://www.masonicinfo.com/shaw.htm

Jim Shaw was indeed a Mason and was active in the Scottish Rite bodies of Florida. He became a Mason in 1945 and demitted (requested that he be removed from active membership) in 1966. Despite the claims made in his book, he was NOT the Master of a Masonic lodge nor did he ever receive the honorary 33rd Degree of the Scottish Rite.

From: http://masonictraveler.blogspot.com/2006/02/jim-shaw-and-his-agenda.html

To the reader, I beseech you, do your homework. Ask a Scottish Rite Mason, ask a Mason. Knock on a door to a lodge and ask. Continuing slander like this to further another cause is beneath the believers in Christianity. I say this because Shaw's text is an overwhelming message of salvation through Christ, at the expense of lies made up about Freemasonry.

So he was a Mason in America, however, he was only "one of its top leaders" in his and the heads of people who know no better.

Mike

thetonic
13-05-2009, 06:24 AM
To the reader, I beseech you, do your homework. Ask a Scottish Rite Mason, ask a Mason. Knock on a door to a lodge and ask. Continuing slander like this to further another cause is beneath the believers in Christianity. I say this because Shaw's text is an overwhelming message of salvation through Christ, at the expense of lies made up about Freemasonry.



To this the average reader of David Icke website may do one of the following

a) Accept that the original article in question may contains some truth and some lies and recognize / understand some of the terms or words used in said article. In witch case will raise suspicion to Freemasonry, but not totally condemn it or condone it...

b) Accept the article written as the full truth and using prior experience or first hand knowledge have confirmed this information to be true and valid. In witch case the reader will have already embraced Freemasonry due to oaths or other circumstance or will have rejected Freemasonry due to the prior mentioned and confirmed experiences written about in said article.

c) Claim that the author of the article is incorrect or has no authority / experience / veracity and must be a liar that is purely attempting to mud sling and / or tarnish the organization of Freemasonry.

If your answer is C, then you have the most perplexing issue at hand.

And that is who / what / why is this deliberate campaign and effort being taken to attack and destroy Freemasonry? Do you honestly believe this is an attempt by the Catholic church to rub Freemasonry out? Or is it the almighty Protestants and their evangelical saintly like comrades? Or perhaps it is the Conspiracy Theorists after all... So desperate are they to recruit into their pseudo religiou cults of 'CONSPIRACY' that they detest the idea of these 'free thinking' men that dare to congregate in their Temples and 'share knowledge' and 'make donations'...

And what of the people who do 'do their homework'? Are they not entitled to an opinion? Oh no ... of course , you have to have been a Freemason, to accurately comment on the subject at all, otherwise you are 'slanderer' or 'misinformed' (which brings us back to the original question). So the 'misinformed' people will readily and openly join these organizations in hopes to 'get a perspective'...In which case you have already subjected yourself to 'blood oaths' which are of course only 'symbolic'...

Does any one else see a pattern here?

The masons here are more than likely on recruiting missions. Get that through your thick skulls and you will be much better off in the world!!!

This whole sub forum is a recruiting center! The Armies of the world couldnt have designed better infiltration / recruiting you fucking suckers!!!!

luciferhorus
13-05-2009, 08:29 AM
To this the average reader of David Icke website may do one of the following

a) Accept that the original article in question may contains some truth and some lies and recognize / understand some of the terms or words used in said article. In witch case will raise suspicion to Freemasonry, but not totally condemn it or condone it...

b) Accept the article written as the full truth and using prior experience or first hand knowledge have confirmed this information to be true and valid. In witch case the reader will have already embraced Freemasonry due to oaths or other circumstance or will have rejected Freemasonry due to the prior mentioned and confirmed experiences written about in said article.

c) Claim that the author of the article is incorrect or has no authority / experience / veracity and must be a liar that is purely attempting to mud sling and / or tarnish the organization of Freemasonry.

If your answer is C, then you have the most perplexing issue at hand.

And that is who / what / why is this deliberate campaign and effort being taken to attack and destroy Freemasonry? Do you honestly believe this is an attempt by the Catholic church to rub Freemasonry out? Or is it the almighty Protestants and their evangelical saintly like comrades? Or perhaps it is the Conspiracy Theorists after all... So desperate are they to recruit into their pseudo religiou cults of 'CONSPIRACY' that they detest the idea of these 'free thinking' men that dare to congregate in their Temples and 'share knowledge' and 'make donations'...

And what of the people who do 'do their homework'? Are they not entitled to an opinion? Oh no ... of course , you have to have been a Freemason, to accurately comment on the subject at all, otherwise you are 'slanderer' or 'misinformed' (which brings us back to the original question). So the 'misinformed' people will readily and openly join these organizations in hopes to 'get a perspective'...In which case you have already subjected yourself to 'blood oaths' which are of course only 'symbolic'...

Does any one else see a pattern here?

The masons here are more than likely on recruiting missions. Get that through your thick skulls and you will be much better off in the world!!!

This whole sub forum is a recruiting center! The Armies of the world couldnt have designed better infiltration / recruiting you fucking suckers!!!!


Dear Thetonic

Please allow me to introduce myself.

I have a graduate degree in religious studies. One of the groundrules in the study of cults (L. from 'cultus:' to worship) is that one should 'never' only study a cult via the proponents of that cult; one should also study the positions of ex-cultists and anti-cultists.

If one could only research a cult by joining it, the entire academic field of 'religious studies' would grind to a halt; it is rather like arguing that one cannot understand Nazism unless one becomes a Nazi.

I have listened to testimonies of ex-Hitler youth cultists and it is quite clear that their young minds were hypnotised by the constant barrage of exclusively positive propaganda about Nazism; similarly with a hypothetical Masonic cultist who never engages his opponents in debate; here at least you have Masonry's ideological vanguard who are prepared to debate with their enemies.

Generally on 'Masonic' Internet discussion groups, anti-cultists and anti-Capitalists such as myself are generally unwelcome and there is no 'debate;' rather when there are a majority of cultists, anti-cultists are generally met with a hail of abuse (which should not be confused with discussion / debate). I can give you a number of links to Myspace discussion groups, for example, where this is the case, and I have found this pattern to be consistent over many years of debating on the Internet.

I am a Communist, but over the years I have debated on major Nazi and Holocaust discussion groups (such as www.stormfront.org);; I am currently banned from Stormfront, not because I engage in abuse, but because they are simply not interested in debating with Communists; similarly with the major Hammas (militant Islam) group, I was apparently too radical for them; my Internet Site which is a militant Anarchist site has been banned by my ISP on two occassions and I am now forced to use the same ISP as Hammas (what irony).

I have a similar experience on Christian groups; it is usually not very long before I am either showered with abuse or excommunicated.

I don't consider exchanging abuse to be a form of intelligent 'debate / discussion.'

There are number of fairly intelligent Masons here to defend their cult, and frankly, though I share Icke's judgement on them that they are a malevolent force in the world and that their god is the god of Capital and religous hypocrisy, their presence here ensures that they have the opportunity to defend any attacks on their cult, otherwise we would only find a 'one-sided debate,' and we would quickly tire of flattering one another and the suspension of criticism which is not condusive to the dialectical process of education.

With regards to the Masonic cultists using this forum as a recruiting ground, I do not believe that to be the case, there are way too many willful, intelligent and educated opponents here; however it is the responsibility of the Masonic cultists' debating opponents to ensure that this does not occur; however showering them with abuse or denying them the freedom to engage in debate is not useful; generally when that occurs against myself on 'enemy territory,' I find it only strengthens my position and my convictions.

Further, debating with one's enemy, allows one to familiarise oneself with the way in which the enemy defends their ideology; it is one thing entirely to debate with a barely literate Neo-Nazi football hoolligan, and it is entirely another to debate with David Duke and the Nazi intellectuals; in Masonic terms one could compare this with the Mason who joins simply to advance his career in Capitalism and a Mason who is an educated devotee of the god of Capital. Debate is also a dialectical process which sharpens and develops the mind; it allows us to understand the weaknesses and strengths of our own ideology and also that of our enemies. The great general knows not only his own strengths and weaknesses but must also attempt to become an expert in the strengths and weaknesses of his enemies.

My father, who is a lifetime Mason is 86 years old now; he has throughout his life been an evangelical Capitalist and a militant anti-Communist (ideologically speakng) whose defintion of the god of Capital is my defintion of the Devil; despite him being highly educated, intelligent and an extremely effective Capitalist, he has had a couple of strokes and is becoming slightly senile due to his age; so I prefer to engage the younger and more cogent 'slaves' of the old master on forums such as this. I do love my father and have a great compassion for him; I think he is just a victim of the Masonic environment in which he was raised, much like a Nazi who has been raised a Nazi since childhood; however if he were to have his life over again now, he would have to deal with an entirely different set of anti-cultists whose knowledge of his cult surpasses that of previous generations.

With regards to:


The masons here are more than likely on recruiting missions. Get that through your thick skulls and you will be much better off in the world!!!

This whole sub forum is a recruiting center! The Armies of the world couldnt have designed better infiltration / recruiting you fucking suckers!!!!


I am rather new here, but if I understand you correctly Thetonic, you have been debating regularly on this forum for quite some time, and in general your posts give the impression that you are a Christian on a recruiting mission; generally I share Icke's view that the Christians and Masons are cut from the same cloth and that both religions are simply tools of the establishment to hypnotise the gullible masses.

Your thread "Why do the Jews hate 'Jesus of Nazareth'? is the usual anti-Jewish Christian nonsense, but you are as free to spread such nonsense as the Masons here are, and your ideological enemies are as free to attack you as they are to attack the masons; this all adds up to a healthy debate.

The following essay is not exclusively directed at you; it is just a general response which I post into forums where intelligent debate breaks down; not that this is generally occuring here; on the contrary; but it makes some points as to 'what is debate' and the importance of allowing freedom of expression to one's ideological enemies.


LL

Lux

_____________


On the Dialectic (Gr. Argument)



http://wwhwww.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/socrates2.jpg



Lucifer





I'd Like to make a general response to this which I hope will improve the 'form' of debating.



I have a prewritten essay on this which I often post into Internet forums where I am debating.



I think that we have to imagine ourselves as philosophers debating at the 'Oxford debating society;' we have to imagine Socrates and his pupils; we have to imagine Jesus debating with his enemies and Bhuddah with his critics; none of these souls spoke to an exclusively passive audience who simply agreed with everything they said, and were entirely unafraid to adress their critics and would challenge the established beliefs and ideas of Archons of their age.



http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp230/uncknowledge/tributepainting.jpg



It is important not to suspend criticism of anyone, for this is not how the free thinker thinks, but it is also important to concede our own positions when shown to be errant.



If a Nazi states 99 truths which we agree with and one flasehood which we do not agree with; the advanced soul should concede the 99 points and only take up the point of disagreement.



We often learn as much from listening to and debating with our ideological enemies as we do with our allies.





How to test one's belief system.



Lucifer

The 1000 Year Revolution of Light.



I also have a metaphysical belief system which makes the most sense of reality to me; it cannot be proven empirically however, this being a statement of the obvious, since there will never be empirical (objective, scientific) proof for the non empirical (metaphsycial, subjective, non-scientific), just as we cannot empirically prove the existence of love or beauty, yet they form part of our reality just as our ideas and beliefs do.



Witgenstein's Tree does not explain 'all of philosophy (the study of knowledge);' it is merely all of empistemology (which asks the question, 'how do we know what we know?' and 'what is objective knowledge?). If I say 'I know objectively' that the universe has a Creator and that she is a black, militant, Communist, Jewish lesbian' then the term 'know objectively' is an 'epistemic fallacy,' but it does not make the latter half of the statement false; in metaphysics we speak of what we cannot and do not know by the evidence of the 5 senses, but rather of our interpretations of reality and beliefs, which we can then test out in the arena of debate.



There are numerous Greek words for knowledge and 'epistem' is only one of them.



When we speak of grand metaphysical systems, we are speaking of subjective understandings of the universe. My own understanding is a modern 'syncretism (a mixture)' based upon understandings and inner experiences gleaned from the Kabbalah, necromancy, ritual magick, Neo-Paganism, shamanism, Crowleyanity, psychoactive usage, the study of all religions and shamanism in general etc., however unfortunately there is no scientific method of proving this or any other system.



So what are we left with? Since a scientific system of proving what is not scientific is not possible, we can only refer to the Socratic dialectic (see essay below); this is much better system of continuous non-scientific 'testing' than merely one person designing a ‘new’ Grand Metaphysical System and imposing that on every one else for the rest of history; or just sticking with the worn out systems; the dross of history.



Unfortunately the Socratic dialectic method requires a very open mind (a rarity among adults) and the willingness to test ones ideas, witness them being torn apart and to concede points in debate when shown to be errant.



However.. this method separates the intellectual and religious fascists (the Sophists) from the truly great souls of human history.



In the absence of a scientific method, there is simply no other way which does not lead to the abyss of dogmatism and religious extremism.



Narrow is the path...



Bear in mind of course that Socrates was sentenced to death for challenging and attacking the beliefs of the Archons (authorities) of his age. Using this system will not make you popular; for example any Christian priest who uses this simple method on his Bishops and their hierarchy is almost guaranteed excommunication. Try this in a Muslim country or as a CIA employee and await the lynch mob or the assassin.



The ‘only’ method for testing metaphysical ideas which in anyway parallels the continuous testing and experimentation methods of scientists is the Socratic method; this would be the only acceptable Anarchist model for considering non-scientific ‘truths’ in a future world.



The ’Cogers’



For some years when I lived in London I would attend the ’Coger’s Society’ which meets several times a month in a pub in different parts of London. All persons have 5 minutes to speak /debate on any subject they wish; mostly politics and religion.



There is always a moderator, however. Two of my Anarchist comrades were presidents (moderators) of the Cogers for a while, and no matter how extreme the views presented by Christians, Far-rightists, Muslims, Capitalists, whatever, no interruption or heckling was tolerated. A person could brutally atttack another speaker only during their ’5 minutes,’ or if the speaker took responses and questions from the floor.



That is why if you want to have an intelligent discussion with Christians, Nazis, Communists whatever, you need to either have a moderated discussion or the debaters need to follw certain ground-rules, since there are always those who confuse an argument between philosophers with an argument between drunks in a pub. As with the 'Cogers' the ideal 'moderator' however does not impose 'any' form of censorship of ideas, but rather is there to keep the 'rabble' at bay, to encourage debate and to cry 'order' if debate is confused with the hurling of ad hominems (lit 'against the man' as opposed to against the person's political and religious 'ideas' and 'beliefs;' i.e., personal abuse)'



I have been on the Internet almost since its beginnings; we know that it is a fact that there exists among us an army of professional spammers, bloggers and debaters, employed by the state terrorists, yet you will never find anyone who will admit to that; in addition we have to deal with children and others, lacking in education and whose intelligence is undeveloped, and who just like to make a lot of noise. Frankly most Americans are barely literate anyway and can just about read a cornflakes packet.



Anarchism.



Since Anarchism, unlike Marxism is a purely political solution, there is no rigid metaphysics; all beliefs may be considered as long as all forms of organised religion and the professional priesthood (authorites on ‘God’) are eradicated; the debates may thus continue until the end of the universe and the death of the soul, if such as thing be possible.



http://www.ricksiegel.com/images/hitler_cardinal4.jpg



If the day comes when a new ‘Great Leader’ convinces half the world that his form of political and religious truth is infallible, the revolution shall have to be begun all over again and rivers of blood shall flow. Few things are more offensive to the proponets of the Socratic method that a politician or religionist making a speech to an uncritical audience of psychopahants clapping incessantly at every sentence or crying out 'Amen;' for such is the sign of the psychophant, the gullible, the sheep, the lemming, the hypnotised and the soul who has suspended all criticism.



War



The point where all debates cease is the beginning of war and in the age we live in we can expect war like no other in human history, and this shall be the consequence of the few masters who refuse to listen to the will of the masses and who care not for their concerns or criticisms.





Love and Light.



Lux

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif





______________________________________



The Socratic Dialectic (Gr. Argument) 101



or:





‘Abuse, sophisty and contradiction (ASC) : the last cries of the desparate.’





What is ‘argument?

By Lucifer

For Anarchist Communism.



______________________________________



There are numerous groups on the Internet where debate is confused with 'exchanges' of abuse.



I was did not always think as I do, and in the future I expect my positions to modify as a consequence of study, debate, life experience etc.



Debate and discussion is always a good thing.



Our political and metaphysical beliefs must go through a dialectical testing process.



When tested, if they fail or are destroyed by superior arguments; the person who is intellectually honest should concede and modify his position.



That is how adults 'develop' intellectually, morally (the discernment of good and evil), spiritually, whatever.



Children just slag each other off.



______________



http://sorinplaton.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/skinheads.jpg



Thesis (idea), anti-thesis (opposing idea) and synthesis (a combination of two ideas).



An argument in the English language can mean a fight between two football hooligans but this has nothing to do with the Greek meaning of ‘dialectic, ’ with regards to the teaching and debating method Socrates. In Internet debates over the years I have often made many ‘arguments’ against the ‘ideas’ of other people who misunderstand the meaning of the term ‘dialectic, ’ and to simplify I have written the following explanation which I often post in response to my essays.





_____________________________________________



Abuse and contradiction are common and can be had from imbecile, football hooligan or a drunk at a bus stop and do not constitute argument.



Responses should follow certain standards or I will probably ignore you.

_________________________________



Argument (Gr. dialectic) according to Socrates, Hegel and John Cleese.





3 universally accepted ground rules of debating



1: Abuse.

Abuse does not constitute an argument.



2: Contradiction.

Contradiction is not an argument. ’I don’t agree with you’ is not an

argument. An Argument would state ‘why’ you disagree.



3: Sophistry (sophist: ’sophisticated / educated).



A Sophist generally avoids the question and rambles on about something else, often avoiding the argument made by the opponent and often utilising straw man arguments (attacking arguments and positions which the opponent does not hold) and creates confusion with language.



The use of the combination of 1, 2 and 3 is generally defined as ’arrogance’ and ‘avoidance of debate, ’ and by default ‘conceding the point to the opponent’



For those who do not understand the meaning of the term ‘argument, ’ for further information watch the 3 min video on the ground rules of debate on:



http://www.scottberkun.com/wp-content/themes/scottberkun/images/40-1.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/v/kQFKtI6gn9Y&hl=en&fs=1



(Monty Python Argument Sketch)



Note that this only covers abuse and contradiction.



If you cannot understand this, I suggest the removal of your brain.



See



http://www.physd.amu.edu.pl/~magik/pics/gumby1.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIlKiRPSNGA



(Monty Python: ’My Brian Hurts)



’An argument is not contradiction (or abuse); it is a series of connected statements which establish a proposition; a debate is a dialectical intellectual process’



__________





The Socratic and Sophist method of education



Socrates: intellectual and spiritual development through a dialectical process.



Socrates would encourage his students to ‘argue’ with him, but to restate, since the term ‘argue’ has a number of meanings in the English, we are speaking of a Socratic ‘dialectical’ process, not a punch up, nor the showering of abuse; we are speaking of challenging an idea (thesis) with another idea (anti-thesis) and in this way the ideas and debating skills of both parties evolve and develop.



This process is intended to produce an intellectually evolved and intellectually honest person who can admit points to the opponent when the opponent’s position seems to be better and who can also stand up for their own ideas when challenged by an authority whom they disagree with. This is how we evolve intellectually and spiritually; whereas an ‘arrogant; person engages in an argument (debate) in the same way that a boxer fights (to win). The purpose of dialectical argument is not to win even if one is shown to be errant, but to test and evolve (develop) ones’ ideas. This sometimes can involve using the ‘Devil’s advocate’ form of argument where one attacks the arguments of those one essentially agrees with in order to test them.



The Sophists: Intellectual fascism (Gr. Sophist: a sophisticated, educated, arrogant pseudo-intellectual).



The Sophist method of educating students, which has been taken up by the Catholic Church throughout it’s history, was to lecture them for hours, and if challenged by a student, the student might be told that they are arrogant, told off or burned at the state, tortured by the Inquisition’ or simply ‘murdered ’ and branded a heretic who dared to challenge authority. The Sophist method defines the term ‘arrogance. An arrogant person thinks that they are always correct, and even when shown to be incorrect, they will still hold fast to their position, since their purpose is to ‘win’ an argument by all means necessary. The Sophists of course despised Socrates as much as he despised them (he considered them to be educated fools) and like so many others who challenge existing authority, Socrates was martyred.



Lucifer

Light of the World.

Aeon of Lucifer 2008



___________________________





http://www.wgvu.org/wgvunews/images/2775_040609.jpg



Christopher Hitchens on 'debate' and freedom of expression, in defence of holocaust denialist David Irving.



Hitchens is referring to ’debate and discussion’ as an intellectual / philosopher.



The example he gives of his defence of the historian David Irving regards defending another intellectual’s right to make a dissenting argument.



What is occurring on many Interent forums however, is not a group of philosopher’s debating; on the contrary, there is an attempt to stop that and to interfere with this process.



I’m sure that while Hitchen would welcome debate with a person who denies the Holocaust (as he states in the video below), I am also sure that he would attempt to silence those who would attempt to silence the Holocaust denier and to drown him out with the noise of the rabble; that is not a debate.





http://www.youtube.com/v/X3Hg-Y7MugU&hl=en&fs=1









"My predecessors have invariably said, 'My belief is right and yours is wrong; my customs are worthy, yours are ignoble; my dress is decent, yours is not; think as I think, talk as I talk, do as I do, or you will be wretched, poor, sick, disgraced and dammed; besides which, I shall cut your head off, burn you alive, starve you, imprison you, ostracize you and otherwise make you sorry you did not agree to be a good boy.' The essence of every missionary message has been to assimilate the taught to the teacher; and it has always been accompanied by bribes and threats. My message is exactly opposed to any of this. I say to each man and woman, 'You are unique and sovereign, the centre of an universe........... My mission is, in short, to bring everyone to the realization and enjoyment of his own kingship.



Aleister Crowley.' Confessions.'



__________________



Arguement sketch

Monty Python





Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.



Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before?



Man: No, this is my first time.



Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.



Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No. Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.



Man: Thank you.



He enters room 12.



Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?



Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...



Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!



Man: What?



A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE!



YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!



M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!



A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!



M: Oh! Oh I see!



A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.



M: Oh...Sorry...



A: Not at all!



A: (under his breath) stupid git.



The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.



Man: Is this the right room for an argument?



Other Man:(pause) I've told you once.



Man: No you haven't!



Other Man: Yes I have.



M: When?



O: Just now.



M: No you didn't!



O: Yes I did!



M: You didn't!



O: I did!



M: You didn't!



O: I'm telling you, I did!



M: You didn't!



O: (breaking into the developing argument) Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?



M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.



O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.



Anyway, I did.



M: You most certainly did not!



O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!



M: Oh no you didn't!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: Oh no you didn't!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: Oh no you didn't!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: Oh no you didn't!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: Oh no you didn't!



O: Oh yes I did! (very fast)



M: Oh no you didn't!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: No you DIDN'T!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: No you DIDN'T!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: No you DIDN'T!



O: Oh yes I did!



M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!



(pause)



O: Yes it is!



M: No it isn't!



(pause)



M: It's just contradiction!



O: No it isn't!



M: It IS!



O: It is NOT!



M: You just contradicted me!



O: No I didn't!



M: You DID!



O: No no no!



M: You did just then!



O: Nonsense!



M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!



(pause)



O: No it isn't!



M: Yes it is!



(pause)



I came here for a good argument!



O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*!



M: An argument isn't just contradiction.



O: Well! it CAN be!



M: No it can't!



An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.



O: No it isn't!



M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.



O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!



M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".



O: Yes it is!



M: No it isn't!



O: Yes it is!



M: No it isn't!



O: Yes it is!



M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process.



Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.



O: It is NOT!



M: It is!



O: Not at all!



M: It is!



>DING!< The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.



O: Thank you, that's it.



M: (stunned) What?



O: That's it. Good morning.



M: But I was just getting interested!



O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.



M: That was never five minutes!!



O: I'm afraid it was.



M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....



(pause)



O: (dirty look) I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.



M: WHAT??



O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.



M: But that was never five minutes just now!



(pause... the Other Man raises his eyebrows)



Oh Come on!



Oh this is...



This is ridiculous!



O: I told you...



I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!



M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.)



There you are.



O: Thank you.



M: (clears throat) Well...



O: Well WHAT?



M: That was never five minutes just now.



O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!



M: Well I just paid!



O: No you didn't!



M: I DID!!!



O: YOU didn't!



M: I DID!!!



O: YOU didn't!



M: I DID!!!



O: YOU didn't!



M: I DID!!!



O: YOU didn't!



M: (unable to talk straight he's so mad) I don't want to argue about it!



O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!



M: Ah HAH!! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing???



Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!



O: (pause) No you haven't!



M: Yes I have!



If you're arguing, I must have paid.



O: Not necessarily.



I *could* be arguing in my spare time.



http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

thelonious
13-05-2009, 02:59 PM
It may well be that American Masons know who he is but as an English Mason he is on the same level as Albert Pike for relevence, in other words "some bloke in America".

I only became aware of his name through sites like this one.

Mike

There is a big difference between Pike and Shaw though.

Pike was a highly respected Masonic leader and author. He was a Past Master of his Lodge, Past Grand High Priest of the Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of Arkansas (equivalent to your First Grand Principal), Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, S.J., USA, Supreme Magus of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society of the United States, and Provincial Grand Master of the Provincial Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland For the United States.

Shaw was just a guy who resigned from Masonry and wrote a book about it filled with verifiable and documented lies. He was never a Masonic leader, and nobody outside his local area had ever heard of him until he wrote his book.

luciferhorus
13-05-2009, 03:34 PM
Pike was a highly respected Masonic leader and author. He was a Past Master of his Lodge, Past Grand High Priest of the Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of Arkansas (equivalent to your First Grand Principal), Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, S.J., USA, Supreme Magus of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society of the United States, and Provincial Grand Master of the Provincial Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland For the United States.



OK, so you wish to impress this forum with Pike's credentials.

However I have raised some questions regarding the:

Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England and First Grand Principal of the Supreme Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of England; Grand Master of the Order of St Michael and St George; Royal Knight of the Garter; Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order; Personal Aide-de-Camp to the Queen; Order of St George and St Constantine, 1st Class; The Most Illustrious Order of Tri Shakti Patta, 1st Class; Knight Grand Band; the Order of the Star of Africa, Grand Cordon; the Order of the Renaissance, Grand Cross; the Order of St Olav, Grand Cross; Colonel, of the Scots Guards; Colonel-in-Chief, of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers; Royal Colonel, of the 1st Battalion, The Rifles; Deputy Colonel-in-Chief, of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards; Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Leuchars; Honorary Air Chief Marshal, Royal Air Force; Colonel-in-Chief, of The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment); Chancellor of the University of Surrey
and 'President of The Scout Association'

http://www.keepmilitarymuseum.org/images/gallery/primary/rwg07144.jpg


And you have decline to respond

I must refer to current masters, since no person on this forum is yet in the grave.

Since we are all 'currently' alive. I hope you don't mind if we can keep the current topic relevant to currently 'alive' perons.

Pike can no longer speak for himself and respond to criticisms, but the psychophants of the illustious 'Duke' and indeed he himself, should he take an anonymous username, is welcome to explain his medals and his titles and his justification as the 'leader and grand Master of all boy scouts in England.

I speak as an ex-boy-scout, by the way.

http://badattitudes.com/MT/DaddyDickCheney.jpg.

eastbeast
13-05-2009, 05:13 PM
The masons here are more than likely on recruiting missions. Get that through your thick skulls and you will be much better off in the world!!!

This whole sub forum is a recruiting center! The Armies of the world couldnt have designed better infiltration / recruiting you fucking suckers!!!!


I very much doubt that any of us Masons are on recruiting missions generally, much less so on this or any other forum.
To know that someone is a suitable candidate for ANY club /org / whatever one needs to know that person. Forum 'friends' are probably not the same person in real life.

Generally a person has to be well known to his proposer and seconder, furthermore he should ask to join. This is because he is then joining 'of his own free will and accord'.

thetonic
13-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Dear Thetonic
[QUOTE]
Please allow me to introduce myself.

I have a graduate degree in religious studies. One of the groundrules in the study of cults (L. from 'cultus:' to worship) is that one should 'never' only study a cult via the proponents of that cult; one should also study the positions of ex-cultists and anti-cultists.

If one could only research a cult by joining it, the entire academic field of 'religious studies' would grind to a halt; it is rather like arguing that one cannot understand Nazism unless one becomes a Nazi.

I make no aims to stifle debate on this forum. In fact I very rarely engage in the Illuminati sub forum anymore... Its simply one of the more redundant areas of the David Icke dot com and its easy enough to escape the regular masonic commentary by stepping outside its borders




I am a Communist, but over the years I have debated on major Nazi and Holocaust discussion groups (such as www.stormfront.org);; I am currently banned from Stormfront, not because I engage in abuse, but because they are simply not interested in debating with Communists; similarly with the major Hammas (militant Islam) group, I was apparently too radical for them; my Internet Site which is a militant Anarchist site has been banned by my ISP on two occassions and I am now forced to use the same ISP as Hammas (what irony).

Anarchy is a tool to control the masses used by the oppressive Capitalist system that you so detest. In fact its one of their favorite 'ace up the sleeve' tricks that they have used since they took control... Yes , truly ironic

Do you worship the same Lucifer as our Capitalists oppressors as well? Or is this a different Lucifer altogether? One thats been tailored to your needs?



With regards to the Masonic cultists using this forum as a recruiting ground, I do not believe that to be the case, there are way too many willful, intelligent and educated opponents here; however it is the responsibility of the Masonic cultists' debating opponents to ensure that this does not occur; however showering them with abuse or denying them the freedom to engage in debate is not useful; generally when that occurs against myself on 'enemy territory,' I find it only strengthens my position and my convictions.

Whatever youre reasons for not believing this to be the case , I have seen it happen with my own eyes to several regular posters on the forum... People that shouldve known better imo. But the thirst for hand me down 'knowledge' has a way of enticing the naive


I am rather new here, but if I understand you correctly Thetonic, you have been debating regularly on this forum for quite some time, and in general your posts give the impression that you are a Christian on a recruiting mission; generally I share Icke's view that the Christians and Masons are cut from the same cloth and that both religions are simply tools of the establishment to hypnotise the gullible masses.


Not likely. In fact I regularly speak out against Christianity and all forms of organized religion. Im neither a 'christian' nor 'atheist'. Im not a communist and Im not pro capitalism either... Does that disturb you that you cannot paint me into one of your little ideological boxes?

Your thread "Why do the Jews hate 'Jesus of Nazareth'? is the usual anti-Jewish Christian nonsense, but you are as free to spread such nonsense as the Masons here are, and your ideological enemies are as free to attack you as they are to attack the masons; this all adds up to a healthy debate.

Actually , its an honest question with no 'pro christian' hang ups espoused from me. Can you answer the question Lucifer? Or are you saying that the Jews loved Jesus of Nazareth? That is something I might actually find interesting to debate with you

mike martin
13-05-2009, 09:01 PM
There is a big difference between Pike and Shaw though.
From your perspective as an American, yes there probably is but from mine as an Englishman no, not really. They were both Americans who wrote about Freemasonry and neither of their respective books have any resemblance to Freemasonry here in England.

Mike

stewart edwards
13-05-2009, 09:22 PM
From your perspective as an American, yes there probably is but from mine as an Englishman no, not really. They were both Americans who wrote about Freemasonry and neither of their respective books have any resemblance to Freemasonry here in England.

MikeMike, I assume that you mean UGLE Freemasonry here.

stewart edwards
13-05-2009, 09:40 PM
Luciferhorus your picture of the witch lying down has such a beautiful body yet such a sad face. Luciferhorus why, out of sheer curiosity, do you post so many nude pictures? Doesnt worry me, but I wonder if you are making a point that I am missing?

mike martin
13-05-2009, 10:39 PM
Mike, I assume that you mean UGLE Freemasonry here.
Well no not really, I mean UGLE, OWF, HFAF and the GL for Men & Women, the only obedience that may have some sympathy for Pike's theories may be LDH.

BTW it is probably better to ask me questions in new threads cos I get very bored looking at lucihors' magazine-like postings and often leave them before scrolling down two thirds of a web page to find out if anyone else has made any points.

Mike

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 10:15 AM
Luciferhorus your picture of the witch lying down has such a beautiful body yet such a sad face. Luciferhorus why, out of sheer curiosity, do you post so many nude pictures? Doesnt worry me, but I wonder if you are making a point that I am missing?


I am simply making a visual distiction between what and 'who' the devotees of the god of Capital can expect to experience and commune with as their eternal companions in Capitalist Hell:

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/files/images/stories/viceregal/viceregal-010.jpg

And in Communist Heaven, should you take up take up my offer of 144 virgins in the gardens of Paradise as a potential Communist martyr

http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/orgy-girls-busy.jpg

stewart edwards
14-05-2009, 10:51 AM
And in Communist Heaven, should you take up take up my offer of 144 virgins in the gardens of Paradise as a potential Communist martyrWhy?

Why would I want 144 virgins? Why would I want to be a communist martyr?

Luciferhorus, it matters not to me whether you belive me or not, but I have already found heaven. I have stood at the gates of heaven and had the gates open to me. I have passed successfully through the Hall of Judgement.

I am pretty liberal on my views on sex luciferhorus, and will even admit to having the odd fetish (women in sexy rubber dresses:eek::eek::eek: (not into the masks et all), but you seem absolutely obsessed by it. If you want the energy of virgins in such a manner that again is a sign of darkness luciferhorus.

Perhaps you should invite your friends to torture garden and have a philisophical chat in the midst of the performances?:D

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 11:04 AM
Dear Thetonic


I make no aims to stifle debate on this forum. In fact I very rarely engage in the Illuminati sub forum anymore... Its simply one of the more redundant areas of the David Icke dot com and its easy enough to escape the regular masonic commentary by stepping outside its borders



I must be subscribed to about 500 discussion forums; I don't find this forum redundant at all; indeed I currently seem to be spending most of my time on the Internet here; there is a strange attraction and a level of intelligence and interaction here which is rare.


Anarchy is a tool to control the masses used by the oppressive Capitalist system that you so detest. In fact its one of their favorite 'ace up the sleeve' tricks that they have used since they took control... Yes , truly ironic


I have absolutely no doubt that 'all' major political and religious ideologies are infiltrated by the agents of the economic elites and that there is the attempt to use them for their own ends; see my essay 'Dear Alex Jones' below where I respond to such matters of infiltration.


Do you worship the same Lucifer as our Capitalists oppressors as well? Or is this a different Lucifer altogether? One thats been tailored to your needs?


It is a magickal working which I have been engaged in for many years. If the Capitalist elites invoked 'Lucifer' we would be living a world of Love and Light; the world would be a Communist Paradise; the Lucifer archetype is used by the elites in the same way that Capitalist Christians exploit the Communist archetype Jesus.



Whatever youre reasons for not believing this to be the case , I have seen it happen with my own eyes to several regular posters on the forum... People that shouldve known better imo. But the thirst for hand me down 'knowledge' has a way of enticing the naive


If anyone is gullible enough to sell their soul to the god of capital after becoming familiar with knowledge of Masonry which David Icke has been disseminating. great and terrible and dreadful shall be their reward; they can hardly claim innocence and ignorance as an excuse.



Not likely. In fact I regularly speak out against Christianity and all forms of organized religion. Im neither a 'christian' nor 'atheist'. Im not a communist and Im not pro capitalism either... Does that disturb you that you cannot paint me into one of your little ideological boxes?


Well my apologies if I have misunderstood you, however you certainly have given the impression that you are a Christian. Since you claim to be neither a Capitalist (monetarist) nor a Communist (non-monetarist), might I ask you what your alternative solution is to the current economic hell which humanity finds itself in? Or are you merely 'confused' and have no solution?


Actually , its an honest question with no 'pro christian' hang ups espoused from me. Can you answer the question Lucifer? Or are you saying that the Jews loved Jesus of Nazareth? That is something I might actually find interesting to debate with you


With regards to the question of 'Jesus' and the 'Jews,' a basic understanding of 'Jewish / Israelite' history is required in order to discuss this matter further; see my 'Is David Icke and anti-Semite?' essay on http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60657


Love and Light to you

Comandante Lucifer.

________________


Dear Alex Jones. On Christian Capitalism: Critique and Counterproposal.

____________________





From Lucifer


Aeon of Lucifer 2007.

The 1000 Year revolution of Light.




______________________





Dear Alex



I was watching your show last week where you stated that when you see someone with a Communist flag that you want to beat them up. I’d also like to respond to your allegations that the state terrorists infiltrate and utilise Anarchist groups in order to initiate violence.



Firstly it is without a doubt that the state terrorists infiltrate political organisations; the Anarchist group ‘Class War’ in the UK, for example recently admitted that one of their members had been working for the military intelligence. This is the problem with ‘any’ political organisation and it is certainly not exclusive to the political Left.



The commonality of the critique against Capitalist state terrorism and the precedent of pre-Nazi Germany.



If you consider the ‘critiques’ of the current state terrorist elites, there is a general commonality among Leftists, Muslims, and even those of the political right such as yourself, Ron Paul and the various flavours of Capitalist Christians against the New World Order. We all consider the same evidence and the same empirical history of Anglo-American-Israeli state terrorism and thus our common ‘critique is essentially the same. If we consider Germany in the 1920’s you may notice that the critiques of the German economic elites by the Nazis and the various sects of Communists were also quite similar; both the radical Left and Right held that the country was being held to ransom by a small group of ‘banksters,’ both the radical left and the right sought in initiate a revolution against them, both claimed that they sought to better the lives of the working people; however the Left and Right had a variety of counterproposals.



The counterproposal. The importance of political correctness (correct politics).



If we do not have a counterproposal which represents correct politics, then even were there to be a revolution tomorrow, the resulting regime may lead to even greater suffering and carnage. If you are overcome with violent thoughts when you see someone with a Communist flag, then might I assume that should a person such as yourself or your admirers ever gain political power, the consequences for Cuba, Venezuela and Columbia, all of which have experienced a sharp turn to the Left would not be promising.



Pseudo Anti-Capitalism.


The problem with many alleged Marxists is that they are simply not anti-Capitalist, but rather state Capitalist; Marx suggested the closure of all banks and the introduction of a temporary system of rationing’ via labour vouchers (i.e., one hours labour = one labour voucher), whereas in the first ‘Marxist’ revolution, Lenin, funded by international bankers, merely continued to issue money, albeit via the state bank; this is simply not Marxism and it is not anti-Capitalism (anti-monetarism / anti-propertyism).



Christianity.



I do note that that you often refer to yourself as a Christian on the one hand, and yet on the other hand, you are an evangelical Capitalist, committed not to the eradication of Capital, but merely its reformation. This is quite simply hypocritical. I notice that the David Rothschild recently accused you having shares in oil companies; that is a trivial matter in my mind; even those committed to the eradication of Capital, must live in a Capitalist world and we must generate wealth that can be used in the creation of conditions for revolution; however the ‘Jesus’ issue is far from trivial, since it is a matter of mass hypnosis. To the Anarchist Christians (I am an evangelical anti-Christian by the way), Jesus is a figure, whom stripped of the mythology, miracles and astro-theology, still leaves an historical archetype who cried out against the rich, the religious establishment, the lawyers and tax collectors of his age and who stated ‘Carry neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, neither two robes, neither shoes, nor yet a staff. Mt 10’ and ‘And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand’ (Mt. 7). Since ‘carry no money’ is clearly an anti-capitalist (non-monetarist) position and you are an evangelical Capitalist, might I suggest that you cease and desist from claiming to be a follower of Jesus since it not only gives offence to the memory of the dead (i.e., Jesus) and other anti-Capitalist historical archetypes of his ilk, Anarchist Christians and liberation theologians, and instead you could perhaps offer eternal salvation in the name of Adam Smith or some other Capitalist like yourself; it would at least be honest.



The biblical prophecies of Judgement Day and Armageddon.



What is prophesied is an age where the revolutionary vanguard (the righteous of Israel) and the armies of 200 million shall bring about a Day of Judgement where the wheat will be separated from the chaff (i.e., the rich and the religious hypocrites / idolaters etc), and the chaff will be cast into the fires of the Final Holocaust (i.e., they shall be burnt), and that this wil lbe part of the end result of a global war in which most of the world’s population will die, where the armies of the Messiah will in an apocalyptic military struggle defeat the armies of the anti-Messiah, who is described as a person of great wealth with great and mighty armies. After this there will allegedly be a 1000 year agricultural revolution (swords to ploughshares) and the creation of the City of Light (the New Jerusalem) where there shall be no Temples (churches, mosques, synagogues etc) and no poverty, and where all past the idolatry (such as Christianity) and the worship of mammon (Capitalism) shall cease to exist.



City of Light.


When you fly over Holland at night, it looks like the City of Light; one sees miles of greenhouses lit up at night by artificial sunlight. You will see this also in the Kibbutz farms in the deserts of Israel and in the deserts of Saudi Arabia; this is modern agricultural revolution; this is what we can do; with poly-house farming, hydroponics and aeroponics, we could feed the world from a tiny corner of the Sahara the size of Texas with four harvests a year and up to 10 tons of crop per acre instead of two. The technology for the non-miracle of the feeding of the 6 billion is with us; the problem is Capitalism and statism.



The financing of Communist and Capitalist revolutions. Comparisons between Statist Communism and Christianity.


While I concede that international Capital has often been behind both forms of revolution, particularly in the case of Lenin and Hitler, if you conclude from this that all Communists are simply tools of international Capital, this argument could just as easily be taken with regards to Capitalist revolution. In Russia, the Bolsheviks were only one group of Communists among many, however it was they who managed to raise millions of dollars from American Capitalists in order to finance their revolution; much to the detriment of other Communist groups in Russia. Just as you utilise the memory of the anti-Capitalist Jesus in order to propagate Capitalism, so too did the Bolsheviks use the slogans of Communism to propagate state Capitalism. Non-monetarist, non statist collectivism (i.e., Anarcho-Communism or ‘Kibbutzism’) is not a political party; it is an idea which could never be successfully utilised by a state since it demands non-statism, nor could it be successfully utilised by Capitalists since it demands non-monetarism and non-propertyism (i.e., collectivism). There are of course a tiny minority among Anarchists who are Anarcho-Capitalists, whose ideology is little more than a defintion of ‘organised crime’ without government intervention and with a private police force to protect the criminals (the Capitalists), however that is a counterproposal to Capitalist state terrorism that would be little different to living under the rule of the mafia in Russia.



Capitalism cannot be reformed; it must be abolished.


As long as Capital exists, there will be corruption and there will be bribery and there will be an economic and military elite; some will have an abundance and others will starve. That hardly accords with the words of your anti-monetarist saviour Jesus. Allegedly Jesus held that the rich and the religious hypocrites will be tortured by demons in hell; that what we bind on earth, we bind in eternity. Since you seem to devote most of your time, and I assume a great deal of financial resources, to attacking the state terrorists, I don’t have a problem with you owning shares in oil companies or amassing wealth, since you clearly use your wealth to attack the enemies of the world’s proletariat, but religious hypocrisy is another matter, since your counterproposal to Capitalism (reformed Capitalism) is simply not anti-Capitalism or non-Capitalism, which was the position taken by the anti-Capitalist Israelite whom many Americans seem to worship as an object of idolatry and then propagate the anti-thesis of his teachings. Shame.



Regards



Lucifer



On Internet psy-op sites and the infiltration of anti-Capitalist organisations by the Intelligence agencies.




________________


A number of facts.

Just to cite one example, Andy Bryant of the London based Anarchist 'Class War' was an MI6 agent; 'Class War investigated and eventually admitted this to be true (see http://www.bluegreenearth.us/archive/article/2005/booth-1-2005.html)


To cite another example, a British television documentary a few years back proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the Socialist Worker's Party (SWP), Britain's largest Marxist political party was run for many years by an individual who was on the payroll of MI6. According to David Shayler there are still SWP activists who are on the payroll of MI6 and further Shayler alleges that there are numerous journalists in the mass media who are on the MI5 payroll.


According to MI6 officer Richard Tomlinson, the military intelligence services devotes considerable resources to lobbying its position in Whitehall, and has a specialised department whose role is to spin-doctor the media by wining and dining favoured journalists and editors.
(see http://www.variant.randomstate.org/7texts/Robin_Ramsay.html)



The view that Anglo-American state terrorist intelligence services have numerous paid employees within the mass media is so well testified to that I think it needs to be considered to be a fact.



There are many suspicious anti-Capitalist sites which are generally 'anti' the 911 truth movement (such as http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk, http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/,
http://www.borderland.co.uk/ and even the UK Anarchist Federation (see http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=22315714&blogID=186135645&MyToken=eddd892b-c305-4753-8a0d-e5219b894e78)


I am totally convinced by the argument and evidence that the view that New York 911, London 7/7, and even many of the so called British IRA bombings (google 'operation Gladio’) were black ops by the military, however there are elements within the Anarchist movement who consider this to be a conspiracy theory and spend a great deal of energy slagging off anyone who challenges the 'official' position as a conspiracy theorist.



The favourite targets of abuse among 911 activists admittedly appear to be individuals such as Alex Jones (a libertarian Christian), David Shayler (whose remarks on Israeli state terrorism have been falsely translated as 'anti-Semitism) and David Icke (who believes that the world is run by reptiles); however whether these people are Anarchists or not is irrelevant to the argument and evidence concerning the history of state terrorist black operations against their own people.

Why those of the Anarchist Left would be highly critical of the evidence presented by 911 7/7 researchers is quite beyond me.

________________

Based on my own sources in London as to how the intelligence services recruit, their strategy is to find people who are already in positions of influence and to put them on their payroll. Such individuals are not career military officers but simply the 'bribed.'

Are there Internet Sites run by Anglo-American psy-ops? Of course there are. Billions are spent on propaganda and misinformation.

I think that any Internet Site or publication where there is 'editorial control (i.e., a tyrant)' is suspect. Sites such as Indymedia on the other hand, where journalists are unpaid and independent offers a more 'Anarchist' model, but to be frank any large organisation can be infiltrated (bribed)





______________________________



Lucifer



An open letter to the media

cc: 911 activist sites.



A personal reference for Larry O'Hara and Paul Stott of http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk/


The site operators of the above a '911 was not a black op' psyop site clearly have set up this 'pseudo-Left' site to gain media attention for the cause of their state terrorist masters.



They claim to be ‘experts’ who can debate the issues and plead on their site to be given the opportunity in the media to 'counter' any '911 experts' who allege that 911 and London 7/7 were black operations by the Anglo American state terrorist police / military.



As can be seen from their form of 'debating the issue' on for example http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/2006/11/anarchist_feder.html#comment-25898971
they are clearly intellectual morons incapable of debate and quickly report to abuse, contradiction, straw man arguments, changing the subject and other methods of sophistry to avoid defending any of the claims made on their psy-op site.



I thus have no hesitation in recommending these defenders of state terrorism as being typical of the mentality of your police state masters and I fully encourage you to give these morons an opportunity to debate with those who have examined the evidence and argument that Sept 11th and London 7/7 were black operations by your state terrorist masters.



Kind regards



Lucifer
Great and terrible and dreadful shall be the Day of Judgement.



An extensive list of psyop Internet sites defending Anglo_American state terrorist black operations on:


http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk/911cult_011.htm



Psy-op: a practical definition:



(a) disinfo operation designed to attract young political dissidents, draw them into the community, document their beliefs, and moderate their opinions

Those without an education in the matter may wonder aloud how a website that provides “dissident” material could possibly be an agent of the state that it allegedly opposes;


…..in George Orwell’s magnus opus 1984, there are two notable parties seemingly at war with each other: the tyrannical state, which controls all of the mainstream media in a very obvious, overbearing way, and the “Brotherhood,” a band of anti-government rebels who subvert the state through open resistance and an underground literature trade. By the end of the book, it’s revealed that both the state and the Brotherhood are controlled by the same interests,

By creating an anti-government resistance movement, the government of 1984 – the original “Big Brother” – ensures its own complete control of its populace, for even those opposing it are simultaneously fighting for it, albeit unknowingly. Such is the case propaganda, .... it works because we are unaware that we are even exposed to it.

....Taking into account things like Operation Mockingbird – which turned over 400 domestic American journalists into CIA assets by the late 1960’s –

.... Thus are born the popular leftist “gate-keepers” of conspiracy lore; intelligence-connected institutions like the aforementioned Ford Foundation funnel money to moderate-left media establishments .... in the interests of drowning out radical or revolutionary thought and legitimizing moderate beliefs and opinions. The term “gate-keepers” refers to the power that moderate leftists ....can thus receive, as they are able to essentially decide what is or is not appropriate for discussion among contemporary leftists, and will thus essentially set the agenda for many in their audience.






Lucifer

For Anarchist Communism





http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/anarchism2sm.jpg

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/BakuninCW.html

Collected Works of Michael Bakunin


http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/KropotkinCW.html

Collected Works of Peter Kropotkin (The Prince)

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/GoldmanCW.html">

Collected Works of Emma Goldman </a>



http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/proudhon/ProudhonCW.html

Collected Works of Joseph Proudhon



Video: Numerous online Anarchist films.

<a href="http://www.londonfreetv.com/documents/menu.html">http://www.londonfreetv.com/documents/menu.html</a>



http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

For a world without nations, governments, money or any means of barter or exchange where all property is shared in common.
For kibbutzism (agricultural collectivism)

For the feeding of the 6 billion.

________________________________________

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/Bushishitler.jpg


On the Military Strategy of the State Terrorists. Sept 11th and other ‘false flag’ military operations.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947&q=alex+jones&hl=en

Alex Jones: Video archive:


http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=937">http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=937



http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/loosechange.jpg

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en

Sept 11th video: a black op by the US military: broadband



911 Truth: video archives

http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=939



http://www.belowgroundsurface.org/

____________________

Videos by Lucifer


http://3.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=2ed2cef8e6166403&offsetms=10000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=VmR2YWotgszPQuvd3zhnaBqSarU

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4162680054846428815&hl=en

Liberation Theology Video: Anarchist Jesus Part 1. Runtime: 2 minutes


http://3.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=3601540b8b70871b&offsetms=15000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=GJRGjaKp8T6vndP-wZ6dbnz83sY

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2669487853657952105&ei=5NkLStDrIZej-Aast8X8DA&q=liberation+theology+lucifer&hl=en

Liberation Theology Video: Anarchist Jesus: Part 2. Runtime: 2 minutes

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Why?

Why would I want 144 virgins?


Well you could have tea and polite conversation with them; you could discuss Freemasonry with them. And when you get bored with that, there is always 'sex.'


Why would I want to be a communist martyr?


Well my standing offer is 144,000 virgins for all Communist martyrs, whereas regular Communists only get 144. I think you might get rather bored with the same 144 virgins for all eternity.


Luciferhorus, it matters not to me whether you belive me or not, but I have already found heaven. I have stood at the gates of heaven and had the gates open to me. I have passed successfully through the Hall of Judgement.


As the Judge of Judgement Day, I must point out that it is 'my' Judgement which shall be final and which shall decide upon the soul's entrance to Communist Heaven.


I am pretty liberal on my views on sex luciferhorus, and will even admit to having the odd fetish (women in sexy rubber dresses:eek::eek::eek: (not into the masks et all), but you seem absolutely obsessed by it. If you want the energy of virgins in such a manner that again is a sign of darkness luciferhorus.


Heaven on earth cannot be reached without sexual revolution; heaven shall be a paradise of sexual Communism; sexual obsession shall replace the obsession with Capital and mammon; those who are not obsessed with sex shall not enter heaven but shall remain in the hell of their own making.



Perhaps you should invite your friends to torture garden and have a philisophical chat in the midst of the performances?:D


I haven't been to Torture Garden (yet) but I consider them to be sexual revolutionaries who are participating in the 'Great Work' by breaking down all barriers of sexual restriction and undermining the religious morality of the 'slaves.'

http://bp0.blogger.com/_IyDZgXq8QH0/SIHo2SysT4I/AAAAAAAABmk/AyJpcfjo5Rk/s400/Naked+City+(1989)+Torture+Garden.jpg

Love and Regards

grandsecretary
14-05-2009, 11:31 AM
Well you could have tea and polite conversation with them; you could discuss Freemasonry with them. And when you get bored with that, there is always 'sex.'

... regular Communists only get 144.

Truly gross.

stewart edwards
14-05-2009, 11:39 AM
As the Judge of Judgement Day, I must point out that it is 'my' Judgement which shall be final and which shall decide upon the soul's entrance to Communist Heaven.Well luciferhorus with this your credibility has taken a nosedive. I wonder for example what the Chinese leadership think of your claims?

Why you? What is special about you?

grandsecretary
14-05-2009, 01:13 PM
It is naked despotism Stewart, the same despotism exercised by his friends Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung and Nicolae Ceausescu.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2740178145033501763&ei=1vsLSrn8Ls34-Aad-a3UDw&q=nicolae+Ceaucescu

They were and are self-proclaimed uncrowned kings of a subjugated world which reaps death and destruction upon those who do not obey, without question.

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 01:58 PM
It is naked despotism Stewart, the same despotism exercised by his friends Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung and Nicolae Ceausescu.

They were and are self-proclaimed uncrowned kings of a subjugated world which reaps death and destruction upon those who do not obey, without question.

I have already dealt with this issue on the Buddhism thread.

It is common for those those who defend the despotism of Capital, Capitalist state terrorism, narco-terrorism and the impoverishment and suffering of billions of people, to create problems in the world, then having created such a problem, they point to that problem as if it were not their own creation.

For a defender of the Capitalist state terrorism to criticise Pol Pot, who would not have risen to power with the assistance of the American narco-terrorists, is rather like a foolish man who accuses everyone else of being fools.



____________________

On Pol Pot


The Friends of Pol Pot
by John Pilger
The Nation magazine, May 11, 1998



What is remarkable about the U.S. ..........is the omission of U.S. complicity in his (Pol Pot's) rise to power, a complicity that sustained him for almost two decades. For the truth is that Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge would be historical nonentities-and a great many people would be alive today- had Washington not helped bring them to power ....

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/Cambodia-Map.jpg

To hear Henry Kissinger deny recently that the United States and especially the Nixon Administration bore any responsibility for Cambodia's horror was to hear truth denigrated and our intelligence insulted. .....

For Cambodia's nightmare did not begin with Year Zero but on the eve of the U.S. land invasion of neutral Cambodia in 1970.....

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2002/06/09/csp_b52.jpg

Between 1969 and 1973, U.S. bombers killed perhaps three-quarters of a million Cambodian peasants in an attempt to destroy North Vietnamese supply bases, many of which did not exist.....

http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A3060/30601/300_30601.jpg

During one six-month period in 1973, B-52s dropped more bombs on Cambodians, living mostly in straw huts, than were dropped on Japan during all of World War II, the equivalent of five Hiroshimas.....

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/aag05.jpg

Evidence from U.S. official documents, declassified in 1987, leaves no doubt that this U.S. terror was critical in Pol Pot's drive for power.....

What Kissinger and Nixon began, Pol Pot completed. Had the United States and China allowed it, Cambodia's suffering could have stopped when the Vietnamese finally responded to years of Khmer Rouge attacks across their border and liberated the country in January 1979. ......

But almost immediately the United States began secretly backing Pol Pot in exile. Direct contact was made between the Reagan White House and the Khmer Rouge when Dr. Ray Cline, a former deputy director of the C.I.A., made a clandestine visit to Pol Pot's operational base inside Cambodia in November 1980. .....

http://lcmedia.typepad.com/photos/memorabilia/nixoncambodia.jpg

Cline was then a foreign policy adviser to President-elect Reagan. Within a year some fifty C.l.A. and other intelligence agents were running Washington's secret war against Cambodia from the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and along the Thai-Cambodian border. ....

Cambodia was now America's "last battle of the Vietnam War," as one U.S. official put it, "so that we can achieve a better result."
Two U.S. relief aid workers, Linda Mason and Roger Brown, later wrote, "The U.S. government insisted that the Khmer Rouge be fed.. .the U.S. preferred that the Khmer Rouge operation benefit from the credibility of an internationally known relief operation."..........

In 1980, under U.S. pressure, the World Food Program handed over food worth $12 million to pass on to the Khmer Rouge. In that year, I traveled on a U.N. convoy of forty trucks into Cambodia from Thailand and filmed a U.N. official handing the supplies over to a Khmer Rouge general, Nam Phan, known to Western aid officials as The Butcher........

.... If the U.S. bombing was the first phase of Cambodia's holocaust and Pol Pot's Year Zero the second, the third phase was the l use of the United Nations by Washington, its allies and China as the instrument of Cambodia's, and Vietnam's, punishment............

With Vietnamese troops preventing the return of the Khmer Rouge and a Hanoi-installed regime in Phnom Penh, a U.N. embargo barred Cambodia from all international agreements on trade and communications, even from the World Health Organization...........

The U.N. withheld development aid from only one Third World country: Cambodia, which lay unreconstituted from the years of bombing and neglect. For the United States the blockade was total. Not even Cuba and the Soviet Union were treated this way............

I watched Khmer Rouge officials welcomed back to Phnom Penh by U.N. officials who went to astonishing lengths not to offend them. Khieu Samphan, Pol Pot's henchman who once said that the only mistake the Khmer Rouge had made was not killing enough people, took the salute of U.S. and other U.N. troops as a guest of honor on United Nations Day in Phnom Penh.

.....Are the Khmer Rouge now finished? I doubt it. The more pertinent question is: Will those foreign governments that backed Pol Pot while wringing their hands now help rebuild the country they helped devastate? Henry Kissinger appeared to answer this when he said, "Why should we flagellate ourselves for what the Cambodians did to each other?"

John Pilger

John Pilger has twice won Britain's highest award for journalism. His documentary films have won awards in the United States and Britain.


Entire article on:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/Friends_PolPot.html


____________


http://funkhundd.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/nixon1.jpg


Perhaps the classic one-liner from Oliver Stone's 'Nixon (the dialogue was taken verbatim from the Nixon White House tapes)' is where Kissinger says to Nixon (I paraphrase from memory): 'If you start bombing Cambodia, the world will think you have gone totally insane.' Nixon replied 'That is exactly what I want them to think.'

The war is not over.

Commandante Lucifer

http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/students/cjr11/hoposter.gif

You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win.”
Ho Chi Minh

runciter
14-05-2009, 02:07 PM
I have already dealt with this issue on the Buddhism thread.

It is common for those those who defend the despotism of Capital, Capitalist state terrorism, narco-terrorism and the impoverishment and suffering of billions of people, to create problems in the world, then having created such a problem, they point to that problem as if it were not their own creation.

For a defender of the Capitalist state terrorism to criticise Pol Pot, who would not have risen to power with the assistance of the American narco-terrorists, is rather like a foolish man who accuses everyone else of being fools.

the solution is the dismantlement of the rothschild banking system, not your fake alternative :)

http://www.polo-master.com/polo_masters/megeve/photos_remisePrix07/Groupe_LCF_Rothschild.jpg

l-c-f-r, luciferothschild.. funny :)

thelonious
14-05-2009, 02:44 PM
For a defender of the Capitalist state terrorism to criticise Pol Pot, who would not have risen to power with the assistance of the American narco-terrorists, is rather like a foolish man who accuses everyone else of being fools.

The US were supporting the Khmer Peoples National Liberation Front. It was Communist China that was supporting Khmer Rouge (Pol Pot's communist party).


http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/students/cjr11/hoposter.gif

You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win.”
Ho Chi Minh

Mr. Smiley there, a/k/a Ho Chi Minh, like all Communist dictators, was a criminal. Just like the Maoists in neighboring China, Ho introduced "land reform" which collectivized farms, then stole the farmers' food, leaving them all to starve to death.

Further, anybody who complained about it would be denounced as a "landlord" and shot.

Orwell summed up the Communist ideal nicely:

WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Regardless, this thread about Jim Shaw, not communism. Please stick to the topic.

grandsecretary
14-05-2009, 03:07 PM
Where have I defended the Rothschilds or Capitalist State Terrorism exactly?

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 04:13 PM
Where have I defended the Rothschilds or Capitalist State Terrorism exactly?

I did not even mention the Rothschilds, however Masonry is very much the heart of the Capitalist state terrorist establishment. The numerous military titles of the current Grand Master, The Duke of Kent make that abundandtly clear:


Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England and First Grand Principal of the Supreme Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of England; Grand Master of the Order of St Michael and St George; Royal Knight of the Garter; Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order; Personal Aide-de-Camp to the Queen; Order of St George and St Constantine, 1st Class; The Most Illustrious Order of Tri Shakti Patta, 1st Class; Knight Grand Band; the Order of the Star of Africa, Grand Cordon; the Order of the Renaissance, Grand Cross; the Order of St Olav, Grand Cross; Colonel, of the Scots Guards; Colonel-in-Chief, of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers; Royal Colonel, of the 1st Battalion, The Rifles; Deputy Colonel-in-Chief, of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards; Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Leuchars; Honorary Air Chief Marshal, Royal Air Force; Colonel-in-Chief, of The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment); Chancellor of the University of Surrey
and 'President of The Scout Association'


http://bristol.indymedia.org/attachments/oct2007/major_tim_saunders_briefs_hrh_the_duke_of_kent.jpg

Above: The Duke of Kent: Cult Leader and Grand Master of York Rite Masonry.

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 04:26 PM
the solution is the dismantlement of the rothschild banking system, not your fake alternative :)

http://www.polo-master.com/polo_masters/megeve/photos_remisePrix07/Groupe_LCF_Rothschild.jpg

l-c-f-r, luciferothschild.. funny :)

Contra State Capitalism.

If one were to disempower the Rothschild banking dynasty and empower another dynasty, this would be much like a palace revolution where one tyrant is simply replaced with a new one.

The counterproposal to the current system suggested by David Icke, Alex Jones and other opponents of private Capital, including the Marxist/Leninists is a conversion to 'State Capitalism,' where only the government can issue Capital and not private banks; this is currently the system in place in China, Cuba, North Korea and it was the situation in the former Soviet Union.

With State Capitalism you would simply have a 'palace' revolution and a new set of masters; State Terrorism, narco-terrorism and world Capitalist revolution would continue; currently much of the budget of Europe and America goes to pay off debts to private Capital; this of course 'weakens' the Capitalist states, which is not entirely bad, however if the governments were to introduce state Capitalism, this could enrich the state terrorists even further and there is no good reason to think that their World Capitalist Revolution would not continue.

State Capitalism is still Capitalism; billions would continue to be impoverished and a few elites would still control the wealth of the world; it is just a 'shuffling' of power.

Since the Anglo-American state terrorists are militant and genocidal as it is, why on earth would you wish to see these narco-terrorist parasites further enriched by a State Capitalist solution? It would simply be a transference of power from the private bankers to the Christian state terrorists themselves.

Lux

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/IraqTorture.gif

runciter
14-05-2009, 04:32 PM
I did not even mention the Rothschilds, however Masonry is very much the heart of the Capitalist state terrorist establishment. The numerous military titles of the current Grand Master, The Duke of Kent make that abundandtly clear:

interest on lending should be abolished :)

anyway, the debt-money fraud is the real problem, communism would only be a different type of tyranny.

and i find your plan to put christians to death somewhat disappointing.

runciter
14-05-2009, 04:35 PM
If one were to disempower the Rothschild banking dynasty and empower another dynasty, this would be much like a palace revolution where one tyrant is simply replaced with a new one.


agreed, from my point of view it's the system itslef that must be changed.

from debt-money to credit-money :)

---

Credit money versus debit money

Today, when money is created, it is created in the form of credit for the banks, and is issued in the form of debit to whoever takes the loan, private citizen or government. Of course the debt must be repaid, the money is considered to be "the bank's money", and of course for that reason we must pay interest. I call that debit money and I have already pointed out that this debit money is the cause of much — if not all — of our economic suffering.

Credit money, on the other hand, does not have these drawbacks. The money should be issued and be given — yes, given not as a loan, but as a rightful share in the development of the economy, to each and every citizen. When money gets created, it was not the banks that worked for it, but the people, and so quite rightfully, the people should become the owners of the money once it is issued.

Social credit

One could call such a system a social credit system. In fact, the term "social credit" was coined by a certain Clifford Hugh Douglas, and has been promoted by a Canadian named Louis Even, who has founded a regular publication to bring the philosophy of social credit into public consciousness. Social credit is probably more than what I am describing here, but credit money would certainly be an important part of it.

So when money is issued by the central issuing institute, does it not belong rightfully to all of us who have contributed in one way or another in bringing about economic growth? We produce, we consume, we live, we have ideas, we have children, we teach, we learn. All those activities and others make up the country’s economic life and so it would seem quite logical that the benefit from the issuance of money should not go to a few private bankers, but to those who cause the economy to grow in the first place!

Action to take

Apart from the necessity to end the private money making monopoly by the banks by requiring a 100% reserve for loans given, it must be decided how to organise the creation of money in the future, and how to make sure that each citizen does get their fair share of the increase in economic activity.

Some might say that the State should be given power to create money and that the money created should be the State’s to spend. There is a certain appeal to this logic, but still — it does not respect the principle of giving each citizen their fair share.

Since we are all contributing, in one way or another, to the economic activity of the country, I shall relate here an idea elaborated by an Italian, Prof. Giacinto Auriti of the University of Teramo. His proposal was actually presented as a bill to the Italian Senate some years ago. It is extremely simple and the translated text is given below:

"Article 1

At the act of emission of currency, money is the property of the (our country’s) citizens and shall be credited by the Central Bank to the State".

"Article 2

A social income code is assigned to each and every citizen and it is through this code that all citizens shall be credited their share of income from the emission of currency and from possible other sources of social income".

Auriti, a professor of law, who has made the above proposal, is quite explicit when describing the current situation. He explains that our monetary system is the biggest fraud in history. The people are being defrauded, says Auriti, by twice the total amount of currency in circulation, because not only have they been denied their rightful share in economic development, but when issuing currency, the money was issued as a debt, adding damage to insult, as it were and inflicting a double loss on the populace.

http://www.hasslberger.com/economy/money.html

grandsecretary
14-05-2009, 04:40 PM
I did not even mention the Rothschilds, however Masonry is very much the heart of the Capitalist state terrorist establishment. The numerous military titles of the current Grand Master, The Duke of Kent make that abundandtly clear:


Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England and First Grand Principal of the Supreme Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of England; Grand Master of the Order of St Michael and St George; Royal Knight of the Garter; Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order; Personal Aide-de-Camp to the Queen; Order of St George and St Constantine, 1st Class; The Most Illustrious Order of Tri Shakti Patta, 1st Class; Knight Grand Band; the Order of the Star of Africa, Grand Cordon; the Order of the Renaissance, Grand Cross; the Order of St Olav, Grand Cross; Colonel, of the Scots Guards; Colonel-in-Chief, of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers; Royal Colonel, of the 1st Battalion, The Rifles; Deputy Colonel-in-Chief, of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards; Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Leuchars; Honorary Air Chief Marshal, Royal Air Force; Colonel-in-Chief, of The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment); Chancellor of the University of Surrey
and 'President of The Scout Association'

He is not our Grand Master, so please do not include us in your statements.

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 04:45 PM
and i find your plan to put christians to death somewhat disappointing.

Christians have been putting their enemies to death for centuries and this continues today in Iraq and Afghanistan; there is a war on after all and Christianity is a militant and apocalyptic phenomenon; and by the way I have explained that I refer only to the 'Capitalist Christians,' since many Christians are in fact Communists.


Bear in mind also that since this is an anti-Masonic forum, I should also point out that the highest levels of the York Rite (The Knight's Templars) are accessible 'only' to Christians and that it is a military order which sells military titles and that our monarch here in England is the head of the Christian church and the military and that by 'Christians' I generally refer to evangelical militant Capitalists who are devotees of the god of Capital (i.e., the Devil). Armed, violent, genocidal, apocalyptic Christian state-terrorists with weapons of mass destruction cannot be dealt with by pacifist means; it is unrealistic to expect them to surrender without a fight.

http://www.treehugger.com/nuke-war-h001.jpg

LL

Lux

thelonious
14-05-2009, 04:46 PM
interest on lending should be abolished

If it were to be abolished, it would be next to impossible to get a loan. If you have a hundred thousand bucks, you could invest it, and make money on it. Or you could let me borrow it.

If you decided to let me borrow, I would consider it only fair to pay you interest on it, which would make up for your lost earnings in not having invested it.


and i find your plan to put christians to death somewhat disappointing.

Typical communist act, execute everyone who disagrees with you, and then start executing your own friends to keep them from stealing your power.

Communism is pure evil.

runciter
14-05-2009, 05:00 PM
If it were to be abolished, it would be next to impossible to get a loan. If you have a hundred thousand bucks, you could invest it, and make money on it. Or you could let me borrow it.

If you decided to let me borrow, I would consider it only fair to pay you interest on it, which would make up for your lost earnings in not having invested it.


you're looking at things from a capitalistic point of view, human beings are also able to share without profit.

anyway, a credit-money system would change the entire scenario, we don't know what reality will look like :)

and the abolition of interest is only a personal idea of mine, i don't think social credit supporters talk about this.

runciter
14-05-2009, 05:08 PM
Christians have been putting their enemies to death for centuries and this continues today in Iraq and Afghanistan; there is a war on after all and Christianity is a militant and apocalyptic phenomenon; and by the way I have explained that I refer only to the 'Capitalist Christians,' since many Christians are in fact Communists.

excuse me sir, but the wars you mentioned, iraq and afghanistan, are both zionist wars.

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 06:15 PM
The US were supporting the Khmer Peoples National Liberation Front. It was Communist China that was supporting Khmer Rouge (Pol Pot's communist party).
.

I refer you to the previously cited article by John Pilger:


Evidence from U.S. official documents, declassified in 1987, leaves no doubt that this U.S. terror was critical in Pol Pot's drive for power.....

But almost immediately the United States began secretly backing Pol Pot in exile. Direct contact was made between the Reagan White House and the Khmer Rouge when Dr. Ray Cline, a former deputy director of the C.I.A., made a clandestine visit to Pol Pot's operational base inside Cambodia in November 1980. .....



Cline was then a foreign policy adviser to President-elect Reagan. Within a year some fifty C.l.A. and other intelligence agents were running Washington's secret war against Cambodia from the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and along the Thai-Cambodian border. ....


.
Mr. Smiley there, a/k/a Ho Chi Minh, like all Communist dictators, was a criminal. Just like the Maoists in neighboring China, Ho introduced "land reform" which collectivized farms, then stole the farmers' food, leaving them all to starve to death.

Further, anybody who complained about it would be denounced as a "landlord" and shot.
.

The future world must be and will be 'Communist,' and global collectivisation is the agenda of the 1000 year agricultural revolution (swords to ploughshares); the separation of the wheat from the caff, by executing those who resist this will be an insignificant detail of history in comparison to the 20,000 children who die each day due to the effects of poverty and the billion people who are constantly hungry. There are always problems with collectivisation but there are 6 billion people here and food is the priority of revolution whereas in Capitalism, food is a commodity which is bought and sold, and those with no Capital cannot eat; this is not acceptible; Capital 'executes' innocents, not just with depleted uranium but through starvation and poverty; thus it is entirely justifiable to execute reactionaries; Capitalism is after all a militant genocidal ideology; it simply cannot be eradicated with a pacifist solution.

.

Orwell summed up the Communist ideal nicely:

WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH



I think that you are obviously in a rather desperate corner if you have to quote Orwell as an anti-Communist.

http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/images/glasier300.jpg

Orwell was a Communist. He was a member of the ILP (Independent Labour Party) which was run for many years by a realtive of mine, the late James Maxton, M.P; the I.L.P. were Communists.

http://www.johngarforth.co.uk/IMAGES/PICS/maxton.jpg

'Animal Farm' was an anti-Stalinist critique written by a Communist, and '1984' was his vision of future totalitarian Capitalism. "WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" was a mantra of his Big Brother state which has striking parrallels to the way the current Capitalist state terrorists use language as propaganda.

http://www.fuenterrebollo.com/Gobiernos/poum/cartel-poum-171.jpg

Orwell and other I.L.P. activists volunteered to fight with POUM (United Marxist Workers Party) in the Spanish Revolution and his 'Homage to Catalonia' is a classic Communist work which covers his experiences in the war against Franco and the Spanish Christians; he later remarked that he wished he had fought alongside the C.M.T (i.e., the Anarchists) rather than the Marxists.

http://www.defenestrator.org/images/cnt.jpg

I find it rather incredible that you would cite a Communist as an anti-Communist; surely you have numerous 'actual' anti-communists whom you could dredge up; 'ignorance is strength' indeed.

Lux

http://www.jewcy.com/files/images/Homage-to-Catalonia-Dust-Jacket-pub-by-Secker-and-Warburg-1938.img_assist_custom.jpg


For five years I had been part of an oppressive system, and it had left me with a bad conscience. Innumerable remembered faces faces of prisoners in the dock, of men waiting in the condemned cells, of subordinates I had bullied and aged peasants I had snubbed, of servants and coolies I had hit with my fist in moments of rage (nearly everyone does these things in the East, at any rate occasionally: Orientals can be very provoking)--haunted me intolerably. I was conscious of an immense weight of guilt that I had got to expiate. I suppose that sounds exaggerated; but if you do for five years a job that you thoroughly disapprove of, you will probably feel the same. I had reduced everything to the simple theory that the oppressed are always right and the oppressors are always wrong: a mistaken theory, but the natural result of being one of the oppressors yourself. I felt I had got to escape not merely from imperialism but from every form of man's dominion over man. I wanted to submerge myself, to get right down among the oppressed, to be one of them and on their side against their tyrants.


It was the first time that I had ever been in a town where the working class was in the saddle. Practically every building of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or with the red and black flag of the Anarchists; every wall was scrawled with the hammer and sickle and with the initials of the revolutionary parties; almost every church had been gutted and its images burnt. Churches here and there were being systematically demolished by gangs of workmen. Every shop and cafe had an inscription saying that it had been collectivised; even the bootblacks had been collectivised and their boxes painted red and black. Waiters and shop-walkers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal... There were no private motor-cars, they had all been commandeered, and all the trams and taxis and much of the other transport were painted red and black... Down the Ramblas, the wide central artery of the town where crowds of people streamed constantly to and fro, the loudspeakers were bellowing revolutionary songs all day and far into the night. And it was the aspect of the crowds that was the queerest thing of all. In outward appearance it was a town in which the wealthy classes had practically ceased to exist... Practically everyone wore rough working-class clothes, or blue overalls, or some variant of the militia uniform. All this was queer and moving. There was much in it that I did not understand, in some ways I did not even like it, but I recognised it immediately as a state of affairs worth fighting for


There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilised life--snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England... to the vast majority of people Socialism means a classless society, or it means nothing at all. And it was here that those few months in the militia were valuable to me. For the Spanish militias, while they lasted, were a sort of microcosm of a classless society... The effect was to make my desire to see Socialism established much more actual than it had been before

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8510/homagecatalonia.jpg

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj62/newsinger.htm

watson_k
14-05-2009, 06:16 PM
Christians have been putting their enemies to death for centuries and this continues today in Iraq and Afghanistan; there is a war on after all and Christianity is a militant and apocalyptic phenomenon; and by the way I have explained that I refer only to the 'Capitalist Christians,' since many Christians are in fact Communists.


What do you term your self as LH? [Communist/Capitalist/Whatever?]

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 06:44 PM
What do you term your self as LH? [Communist/Capitalist/Whatever?]

Anarchist Communist


______________

“We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun…………. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy”-- Mao Tse-tung
.
What is Anarchism? On Capital, Property Will and Law. What is to be done?

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/66666666.gif

Lucifer
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
Light of the World.

The 1000 Year Agricultural and Scientific Revolution; the Revolution of Light
The Final Revolutionary War of Economic Salvation.

For a world without money, government or nations.
For Apocalyptic Guerrilla War against Christendom (i.e., Capitalism).
No mercy on they who deserve none.

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/nkorea_missile.gif

Gr. Anarchos. "without archons (rulers) and without arche (government)"


Firstly to simplify, Anarchist Communism is merely 'moneyless stateless collectivism (kibbutzim)' and it is as simple as that. No further defintion is required for those who understand this; however as Anarchism as a political philosophy is generally misunderstood, I will unpack and explain this further.

Primitivism and Syndicalism.

There are the primitivists who emphasise agricultural revolution and the non miracle of the feeding of the 6 billion and then there are the syndicalists who seek technological revolution also. The Israeli Communists (kibbutzists) for example are syndicalists since some kibbutzes manufacture arms and others manufacture food. I share the view of primitivists that agricultural revolution is a priority, however tractors, labour saving machines, computers, medical technology and other products of scientific revolution represent progress and would form part of a future Communist paradise; they are not merely products of Capitalism but of a new scientific and technological humanity; this however would require syndicalism and the division of labour into ‘specialist’ non agricultural fields.

Other types of Anarchists:

Anarcho-Capitalists and 'Libertarians'.

Well obviously Anarcho-Capitalists are not Anti-monetarists (Capital - money) and thus not traditional Anarchists; simply put they are pure Capitalists (monetarists) who don't want any state interfering with private Capitalism; which is pretty close to a definition of neo-conservatism. There would be private police and armies to protect the rich etc. All members of organised crime syndicates (i.e. the mafia) are by default Anarcho-Capitalists whether they define themselves as such or not; after all they want to be free to enslave, bully and oppress others without government interference. Russia today is pretty close to Anarcho-Capitalist (i.e., ruled by the mafia). Anarcho-Capitalism is essentially 'organised crime,' where the criminals don't have to bribe the government or the police since there would be no government and the police would be their employees.

Libertarianism is slightly different, however the consequences would be similar.



Anarcho-capitalism, in my opinion, is a doctrinal system which, if ever
implemented, would lead to forms of tyranny and oppression that have few
counterparts in human history. There isn't the slightest possibility that
its (in my view, horrendous) ideas would be implemented, because they would
quickly destroy any society that made this colossal error. The idea of "free
contract" between the potentate and his starving subject is a sick joke,
perhaps worth some moments in an academic seminar exploring the consequences
of (in my view, absurd) ideas, but nowhere else.

I should add, however, that I find myself in substantial agreement with
people who consider themselves anarcho-capitalists on a whole range of
issues; and for some years, was able to write only in their journals. And I
also admire their commitment to rationality -- which is rare -- though I do
not think they see the consequences of the doctrines they espouse, or their
profound moral failings.
….Noam Chomsky

Punk rockers.

They are mostly just music fans who despise all authority and are not all political Anarchists, however since some punk rockers such as the Sex Pistols defined themselves as Anarchists, in the mind of many, Anarchism is thus associated with them, however few of them in practice advocate Communist collectivism.

Marxists.

Marx who was converted to Communism by the Anarchist Proudhon, held that the Capitalist state must be replaced with a worker's state which would 'wither away' eventually into Anarchist, stateless,moneyless collectivism. Marx was not a total anti-Capitalist (anti-monetarist) since he did suggest replacing money with labour vouchers as a form of temporary rationing, which is still a form of money, however most Marxists do not seem to favour this.

Trotskyists / Leninists

They do not seem to believe that 'state' must wither away eventually, since they are neo-Marxists rather than fundamentalist Marxists, but they are not anti-Capitalists (anti-monetarists) but state capitalists who believe in the nationalisation of banking, as it is Cuba and North Korea today where there is still a money system.

Chomskyism

Chomsky defines himself as an Anarchist, but but when asked what type of system will replace Capitalism he tends to give confusing or vague answers to the effect of 'well we shall have to wait and see,' so strictly speaking he does not openly propose Anarchist Communism (stateless collectivism) and indeed often criticises Communism. Chomskyism is thus a rather vague and confused form of Anarchism and not traditional Anarchism.

National Anarchists

See for example http://www.folkandfaith.com National Anarchists are political Anarchists and do not believe in nation states but they describe themselves as ‘racial separatists’ and are essentially white supremacists and racists. Fortunately they represent only a tiny minority among the Anarchist movement, since the vast majority of Anarchists are also anti-racists.

Anarchists who believe in Anarchist government.

This is a relatively new phenomenon and not really a political movement; indeed I don’t know of any serious writings by a non statist statist, but I have come across such individuals in Internet debates. These are of course non-Anarchists and indeed the most confused kind among all the above groups who claim to be some sort of Anarchist. They are much like the Christians who propagate Capitalism in the name of Jesus (an anti-monetarist, anti-propertyist, anti-religionist, proto-Anarchist Communist) or the Trotskyists who claim to be anti-monetarists (anti-Capitalists) when in fact they are monetarists albeit state monetarists. Since the term Anarchist is defined in the political sense as the absence of government and Archon (rulers / tyrants), one cannot have a non-government government anymore than one can have an anti-Communist Communist, but this argument seems to mean very little to ‘pro-statist anti-statists (????)’ whatever that means.

Anarchist Christians.

Anarchist Christians tend to view Jesus as an anti-propertyist and an anti-monetarist. Since they are essentially anti-Capitalists, they tend to be viewed by Capitalist Christians as heretics who reject the Capitalist interpretation of Christianity , and by many Anarchists as genuine political Anarchists, though some Anarchists consider ‘god’ to be an ultimate ‘Archon (tyrant). Christian Anarchists reject organised religion, but are theists. Anarchist Communism is a purely political solution and unlike Marxism has no rigid dogmatic metaphysics so it appeals to non-religious Pagans, New Age spiritualists, agnostics ‘and’ atheists alike, however ‘organised religion’ or the rule of the priesthood (who are Archons / authority figures) has no place whatsoever in an Anarchist world.

Governments ‘withering away’

States (tyrannies) do not wither away; they have to be brought down by armed violent revolution.

Thelemites.

Thelemites disregard all laws of state and religion and pursue their own sacrd and natural will, without interfering with the will of others (unless they militantly resist thelemic revoution and in this case Crowley held that cuh heretics should be rightfully executed). While this is certainly Anarchist with regards to the rejection of all written laws, not all are Anarcho-Communists (collectivists), in fact very ferw are; indeed Crowley who was an anti-Communist foresaw a future world ‘ruled’ by a group of ‘spiritual masters,’ which pretty much describes the current world with it’s numerous organised religions which generally defend Capitalism. Never the less almost all Anarchists apart from religious Anarchists are Thelemites whether they define themselves as such or not, since they reject all the laws of the police states and religions and believe that humanity should be free to follow their own natural and therfore sacred intuition.

Anarchist political parties and infiltration by the State Terrorists.

Such organisations are easily infiltrated by the state terrorists, as has been the case for example with the Anarchist ‘Class War’ in the UK. Anarchism is a political philosophy not a ‘political party.’ I know many Anarchists in London and on the Internet but I don’t know anyone personally who belongs to a political party. For example the UK Anarchist Federation is a political cult with 66 members in the UK on the last (and only) time I attended a meeting and yet there are probably 10’s of thousands of Anarchists in London alone. The fact that the Anarchist Federation considers state terrorist black operations such as 911 and 7/7 to be ‘conspiracy theories’ and seems to go along with the government propaganda is entirely suspect.

I speak from a European perspective, and most anti-Capitalists in Europe among the young generation (I am 50) appear to be Anarchists who have rejected Marxist statism and materialistic dogmatism. If you are in London for a week you will find numerous Anarchist events, squat parties etc, but among the Marxists, you will have to look very hard for them. Take a look at myspace for example, there are more Anarchist groups than there are Marxist groups and there are more groups who are anti-Capitalist in general than there are groups who propagate Capitalism.

The World Socialist Movement

In London if one hangs out at Speakers Corner or attends anti-Capitalist rallies it is hard not to bump into the World Socialist Movement http://www.worldsocialism.org/ whom I would describe as 'puritanical Marxists and anti-Leninist Communists' who consider themselves to be Anarchists and consider Marx to have been ultimately an Anarchist (anti-statist), however this all hangs on Marx's 'the state shall wither away' position. I have been excommunicated from their Internet debating forum years ago, so it clear that they don't agree with my politics, nor me with theirs, however since I understand the arguments made by Marxist puritans, let me say this.

Marxist Labour vouchers vs. Anarchist Communist 'rationing.'

Marx claimed 'ultimately (in the end)' that he was a non-monetarist, as are all Anarchist Communists. The WSM rightfully defines all forms of 'State Capitalism (where the state takes over the issue of money) as Leninism and as anti-Marxism. Marx's position was that in the early stages of revolution, the people would starve (and probably revolt against the new proletarian dictatorship) unless 'labour vouchers' were introduced to replace money.

For example if the dictators (the economic masters) work 40 hours they would receive 40 labour vouchers and ditto for factory workers (the economic slaves). However this was merely meant to be temporary and transitionary since Marx was ultimately a non-monetarist. Of course in the Soviet Union the alleged proletarian dictatorship simply took over banking, avoided the introduction of 'labour vouchers' became corrupt and tyrannical and eventually some had more money than others (including dollar shops in Moscow), and you had to bribe an 'official' if you wanted a flat or a telephone etc. I really don't see how 'labour vouchers' would stop corruption any more than state Capitalism, since labour vouchers are still a form of money. Obviously in the early stages of revolution, some form of rationing would be necessary, leading to possible corruption among the rationers and their possible transition into a new police state which would have to be resisted.

Rationing in Capitalism through the use of 'money.'

In Capitalism of course the private Usuryists (loan sharks) are the 'rationers,' and this has led to a situation where something like 0.01% or less of the population are the rationers and the majority of the world starves and suffers extreme poverty, so this is 'extreme' corruption. We in the First World are mostly the beneficiaries of this system so we suffer less economically.


Marxist Statism. 'The state will wither away'

The 'contradiction:' if on one hand the police states of the armed violent monetarists (Capital=money or property that has a Capitalist value) can 'only' be overthrown by armed violent anti-monetarists, why then is it that it will not be necessary to overthrow the dictatorship of armed violent so called anti-monetarists? Realistically can you imagine Kim Jong Il's police state just 'withering away' into independent collectives? The Soviet Union did not 'wither away' into independent collectives, but into hardcore Capitalism and the rule of the bankers, pims and the mafia; Gorbachev is now a multi-millionaire (he was bribed); the state withered away into an elite of corrupt billionaires leaving the male proletariat often destitute and unemployed, and the women often fleeing economic hardship into a life a sex slavery in the brothels of Western Europe.

No, the state will not wither away. States will have to be eradicated.

Statists (tyrants) will have to be fought by armed violent revolutionaries, however in the age of nuclear guerrilla weapons where there exists a universal knowledge of practical physics, the anti-Statists should in the end always have the upper hand. The problem is not merely monetarism but statism (tyranny). There have been after all, non-monetarist systems which were simply 'slave societies' with a monarch, and though Marx ultimately believed in total non-monetarism, he had an unrealistic faith in the power of ‘temporal’ tyranny.

Materialism and non-spiritualism.

Dialectical Materialism is a 19th century pre-Einsteinian, pre-quantum physics position. Materialism in the philosophical sense is also a position of faith. Mass can be converted to Energy and Light, and it is by no means a fact that the ‘stuff’of the universe is mass (matter). Marxists insist on atheism, apart from some Liberation Theologians (Christian Communists) who accept Marxist economics and reject his atheism.

Marx's essential Communist beliefs (armed violent revolution and 'eventually' anti-monetarism and 'eventually' anti-statism) which all Anarchist Communists may sympathise with, Marx plagiarised from the Anarchist Communists anyway. Away with Marx; most young anti-Capitalists in Europe are now anti-Marxist Anarchists anyway; it is growing trend.

Ultimately in the aftermath of the inevitable forthcoming nuclear war, the Marxists, the Anarchists and even the Muslims may form ‘ad hoc’ alliances against the police / military / statists but in the end they are destined to clash.

The Anarchist Communist Kropotkin's three categories of Laws.

1: Laws to protect the government.

The definition of an Anarchist region is one where there would be no statists, thus there would be no need for laws to protect the tyrants and their mercenaries (their police state, military, tax collectors and assorted bureaucracy / useless eaters etc.).

2: Laws to protect private property.

Similarly with propertyism, one cannot be a propertyist unless one is militant and have mercenaries (police) to protect one's property. Since the masses will always in their hearts seek to disempower those who enslave them for the purposes of exploiting their labour, leaving the labour slaves impoverished at the expense of a few, and since private propertyism is a militant ideology, the propertyists would have to be eliminated, thus there would be no need to have laws to protect them.

3: Laws to protect the individual from harm (Natural Law).

This is simply common sense. There is no need to create written laws to this extent. This is as it would have been in the mythical Garden of Eden. For example in a world without religious, private property and statist laws, a mother will still demand ‘do not harm my children, do not enslave them, do not starve them, etc., etc., these are of course not the written laws of a police state, but never the less most mothers, unindoctrinated by religion and police statism would probably agree with them.

What is Authority (tyranny)?

The Anarchist (against the Archons / authority figures) Kropotkin once stated that he would never challenge the ‘authority’ of an engineer, since was not an engineer; he did not have that type of expertise and would rather leave bridge building and construction to the trained experts; an engineer is an expert in a certain type of science, not an Archon (tyrant) who claims to be an expert in enslaving people and ruling over them or an expert in God or religious morality

4: Sexual Laws

In addition to Kropotkin’s 3 types of law, we also have to consider the eradication of the millions of religious laws (I will not elaborate), and especially sexual laws; these are simply laws which produce an effective and miserable slave




Sex is the most powerful instinct in man. The politician and the priest have understood from the very beginning that sex is the most driving energy in man. It has to be curtailed, it has to be cut. If man is allowed total Freedom in sex, then there will be no possibility to dominate him. To make a slave out of him will be impossible.

Have you not seen it being done? When you want a bull to be yoked to a cart, what do you do? You castrate him, you destroy his sex energy. And have you seen the difference between a bull and an ox? What a difference! An ox is a poor phenomenon, a slave. A bull is a beauty; a bull is a glorious pheonomenon, a great splendor. See a bull walking, how he walks like an emperor! And see an ox pulling a cart.

The same has been done to man. The sex instinct has been curtailed, cut, crippled. Man does not exist as the bull now, he exists like the ox, and each man is pulling a thousand and one carts. Look and you will find behind you a thousand and one carts, and you are yoked to them.

Why can’t you yoke a bull? The bull is too powerful. If he sees a cow passing by, he will throw both you and the cart, and he will move to the cow! He will not bother a bit about who you are, and he will not listen. It will be impossible to control the bull. Sex energy is life energy; it is uncontrollable. And the politician and the priest are not interested in you, they are interested in channeling your energy into other directions. So there is a certain Mechanism behind it--it has to be understood.

Sex repression, tabooing sex, is the very foundation of human slavery. Man cannot be free unless sex is free. Man cannot be really free unless his sex energy is allowed natural growth.

These are the five tricks through which man has been turned into a slave, into an ugly phenomenon, a cripple.

The first is:
Keep man as weak as possible if you want to dominate him. If the priest wants to dominate you or the politician wants to dominate you, you have to be kept as weak as possible. And the best way to keep a man weak is not to give love total freedom. Love is nourishment..."

"...Second:
Keep man as ignorant and deluded as possible so that he can easily be deceived..."

"...The third secret:
Keep man as frightened as possible. And the sure way is not to allow him love, because love destroys fear--’love casteth out fear.’ When you are not in love you become more interested in security, in safety. When you are in love you are more interested in adventure, in exploration...."

"...The Fourth:
Keep man as miserable as possible--because a miserable man is confused, a miserable man has no self-worth, a miserable man is self-condemnatory, a miserable man feels that he must have done something wrong. A miserable man has no grounding--you can push him from here and there, he can be turned into driftwood very easily. And a miserable man is always ready to be commanded, to be ordered, to be disciplined, because he knows ’On my own I am simply miserable. Maybe someody else can discipline my life.’ He is a ready victim."

"And the fifth:
Keep men as alienated from each other as possible, so that they cannot band together for some purpose of which the priest and the politician may not approve. Keep people separate from each other. Don’t allow them too much intimacy. When people are separate, lonely, alienated from each other, they cannot band together. And there are a thousand and one tricks to keep them apart.

For example, if you are holding the hand of a man--you are a man and you are holding the hand of a man and walking down the road, singing--you will feel guilty because people will start looking at you. Are you gay, homosexual or something? Two men are not allowed to be happy together. They are condemned as homosexuals. Fear arises. If your friend comes and takes your hand in his hand, you look around: ’Is somebody looking or not?’ And you are just in a hurry to drop the hand..." Osho


Lucifer
Fire plague and poisoned waters

www.myspace.com/luciferhorus



Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
—AL. I. 40.
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no
other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3.
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3.
There is no god but man.
..>..>
..> 1. Man has the right to live by his own law—to live in the way that he wills to do:to work as he will:to play as he will:to rest as he will:to die when and how he will.
2. Man has the right to eat what he will:to drink what he will:to dwell where he will:to move as he will on the face of the earth.
3. Man has the right to think what he will:to speak what he will:to write what he will:to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:to dress as he will.
4. Man has the right to love as he will:—"take your fill and will of love as ye will,when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51.
5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights...>

"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57

____________________________



'The revolution will have to be (Anarchist) Communist or it will be drowned in blood and will have to begin all over again'


'Either the State forever, crushing individual and local life, taking over in all fields of human activity, bringing with it its wars and its domestic struggles for power, its palace revolutions which only replace one tyrant with another.....Or the destruction of all states and new life starting again in thousands of centres on the principle that the lively initiative of the individual and groups of that Free Arrangement The choice lies with you'.Kropotkin, 'Conquest of Bread'

On the Pan-German banner is written: Retention and strengthening of the State at any cost. On our banner, the social-revolutionary banner, on the contrary, are inscribed, in fiery and bloody letters: the destruction of all States, the annihilation of bourgeois civilization, free and spontaneous organization from below upward, by means of free associations, the organization of the unbridled rabble of toilers, of all emancipated humanity, and the creation of a new universally human world....Bakunin

ZEITGEIST 2:ADDENDUM The Money System

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en&fs=true


Addendum

Alternatives to Capitalism.


1: Labour Theory of Value.

There are fundamentalist Marxists who wish to see an allegedly temporary government introduce a form of rationing termed ’labour vouchers.’ Marx equated labour hours with value and went to great lengths calculating how much labour would go into a particular machine or a commodity; this became it’s calculatable ’value.’ Clearly, in ideal conditions you would not swap a kilo of marijuana for a kilo of potatoes (some people might if they were starving, but not in ideal conditions); neither would you swap a kilo of gold for a kilo of marijuana (well ’I’ certainly would if I had an abundance of gold, but not in ’ideal conditions).


2: Sharing and Bartering

Bartering certainly occurs on a primitive scale among farmers in the Somerset countryside where I live. Favours are exchanged and there is mutual co-operation.
I am not sure how many chickens you could get for a pig, or how many pigs for a horse, but it is quite an effective system on a primitive level. Two farmers might have two different machines that each wants to use occasionally, so they share.

This might work out quite well among agriculturalists sharing potatoes for carrots, but for other items, such a system would be much less straightforward.

Les us say you wish to buy a tractor or a combine harvester. You would have to pay the tractor dealer with something with which he could pay the manufacturer for the tractor, and this would have to be something with which the manufacturer would be able to pay his electricity bills, his workers in wages etc.

So at this point it all sounds very messy and quite unrealistic.

3: Anarcho-Capitalism.

So here we are again back to Anarcho-Capitalism.

Here there are no government regulations. No banking regulations. No banking licences. Anyone could theoretically start their own loan sharking institution and issue currency. It seems rather confusing.

In addition, there would still be private property, rich and poor, land owners and the landless and homeless. There would be those who would have to become labour slaves for food and those who would be labour masters and demand labour slavery in return for some form of Capital which could be exchanged for food.

But ultimately the question still has to be asked, how would a particular currency in a world of millions of currencies be considered valuable?

Capital as ’Promissary Notes’ for ’anything.’

A farmer in Texas who issues currency would have to state on the currency what the paper I.O.U. is exchangable for. His currency might state ’I promise to pay the bearer a ton of potatoes, ’ or a ’ton of beef’ or its equivalent in labour hours. This system is of course open to fraud, since he could simply write out more I.O.U’s that he is capable of producing. Further if a farmer in New York was offered this I.O.U, it would be a complex matter since he would have to ensure that the farmer in Texas was capable of making good his promissary notes. Further all persons and companies who supplied the farmer with electricity, phone, computers, tractors, labour would have to go through the same process and take the same risk of ending up with a ton of rotting potatoes dumped on their premises. It is a rather messy and impractical solution which I think most farmers and their suppliers would simply laugh at.

Capital as Precious metal promissary notes.

The current system we have is one where only a select few elite bankers can issue such promissary notes; originally they were backed by precious metals, but even this original system was subject to fraud and the creation of ’reserve banking, ’ where only a small percentage of the precious metals were held in reserve.

There are elite banks and non-elite banks. Today elite banks do not work on a reserve system, they simply issue currency at the touch of a computer mouse. Thus have the Capitalists taken over the world though ’confidence (a ’con’) in their paper and credit.

The Anarcho-Capitalist counterproposal to such a confidence trick by a few elite bankers would seem to lead to a world where there were millions of such confusing confidence tricks.

In summary, Anarcho-Communism is a rejection of forms of bartering, token-ism, Capitalism in any form or labour vouchers; it is quite simply about collectives sharing resources, much as it was in the early days of the Israeli kibbutz.

Love and Light

Lucifer
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

Fire, plague and poisoned waters.



___________

"Every man and every woman is a star." That is to say, every human being is intrinsically an independent individual with his own proper character and proper motion.

Every man and every woman has a course, depending partly on the self, and partly on the environment which is natural and necessary for each. Anyone who is forced from his own course, either through not understanding himself, or through external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the Universe, and suffers accordingly. Illustration: A man may think it his duty to act in a certain way, through having made a fancy picture of himself, instead of investigating his actual nature. For example, a woman may make herself miserable for life by thinking that she prefers love to social consideration, or "vice versa". One woman may stay with an unsympathetic husband when she would really be happy in an attic with a lover, while another may fool herself into a romantic elopement when her only true pleasures are those of presiding at fashionable functions. …….
A Man whose conscious will is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently. Illustration: When Civil War rages in a nation, it is in no condition to undertake the invasion of other countries….A man who is doing this True Will has the inertia of the Universe to assist him. Illustration: The first principle of success in evolution is that the individual should be true to his own nature, and at the same time adapt himself to his environment….. Man is ignorant of the nature of his own being and powers. Even his idea of his limitations is based on experience of the past, and every step in his progress extends his empire. There is therefore no reason to assign theoretical limits to what he may be, or to what he may do…. The question of Magick is a question of discovering and employing hitherto unknown forces in nature. We know that they exist, and we cannot doubt the possibility of mental or physical instruments capable of bringing us into relation with them.

Aleister Crowley
Magick In Theory And Practice

________________

Nb., I should point out that Mao, Crowley and Osho (cited in the above essay) were not Anarchists: I merely cite points of agreement.




http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
__________________

For Anarchist Communism
The 1000 Year Agricultural Revolution and the Revolution of Light.
The non-miraculous of the feeding of the 6 billion.




http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/anarchism2sm.jpg

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/BakuninCW.html

Collected Works of Michael Bakunin


http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/KropotkinCW.html

Collected Works of Peter Kropotkin (The Prince)

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/GoldmanCW.html">

Collected Works of Emma Goldman </a>



http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/proudhon/ProudhonCW.html

Collected Works of Joseph Proudhon



Video: Numerous online Anarchist films.

<a href="http://www.londonfreetv.com/documents/menu.html">http://www.londonfreetv.com/documents/menu.html</a>



http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

For a world without nations, governments, money or any means of barter or exchange where all property is shared in common.
For kibbutzism (agricultural collectivism)


________________________________________




On the Military Strategy of the State Terrorists. Sept 11th and other ‘false flag’ military operations.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947&q=alex+jones&hl=en

Alex Jones: Video archive:


http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=937">http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=937



http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/loosechange.jpg

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en

Sept 11th video: a black op by the US military: broadband



911 Truth: video archives

http://infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=939



http://www.belowgroundsurface.org/

____________________

Videos by Lucifer


http://3.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=2ed2cef8e6166403&offsetms=10000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=VmR2YWotgszPQuvd3zhnaBqSarU

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4162680054846428815&hl=en

Liberation Theology Video: Anarchist Jesus Part 1. Runtime: 2 minutes


http://3.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=3601540b8b70871b&offsetms=15000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=GJRGjaKp8T6vndP-wZ6dbnz83sY

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2669487853657952105&ei=5NkLStDrIZej-Aast8X8DA&q=liberation+theology+lucifer&hl=en

Liberation Theology Video: Anarchist Jesus: Part 2. Runtime: 2 minutes

thelonious
14-05-2009, 06:45 PM
I think that you are obviously in a rather desperate corner if you have to quote Orwell as an anti-Communist.


Orwell was a Communist.

Orwell was a Communist in his youth. Once he found out what the Communists were really about it, he became one of the leading anti-Communist authors of the 20th century. His two masterpieces "Animal Farm" and "1984" were written to warn the world about the dangers of Communism.

"1984" is a dystopian novel depicting a nightmare future world under the yoke of Communism. "Animal Farm" is an allegory of the Soviet Union.

From the time he left the Spanish Civil War until his death, Orwell had in no uncertain terms denounced Communism, and championed democratic socialism instead.

luciferhorus
14-05-2009, 07:13 PM
Orwell was a Communist in his youth. Once he found out what the Communists were really about it, he became one of the leading anti-Communist authors of the 20th century. His two masterpieces "Animal Farm" and "1984" were written to warn the world about the dangers of Communism..

"1984" is a dystopian novel depicting a nightmare future world under the yoke of Communism. "Animal Farm" is an allegory of the Soviet Union.

From the time he left the Spanish Civil War until his death, Orwell had in no uncertain terms denounced Communism, and championed democratic socialism instead.

Orwell had returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and anti-Communist, but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.

What utter nonsense.

With regards to being a Communist in his 'youth,' Homage to Catalonia (1938) was published when he was 35 years old, regarding his experiences of the previous year.

Orwell was dismayed over the betrayal of the Spanish Revolution and the fact that the Spanish Communist Party, aided by the Soviet Union seemed to be more intrested in fighting 'against' the Anarchists and the POUM (anti-Stalinist Marxists); he was never an anti-Communist; though he was highly critical of the corruption and totalitarianism of Stalinism and he was certainly not uncritical of many of his contermporary socialists; on the contrary.

The ILP also defined themselves as 'democratic socialists' but I can assure you they were Communists; further 1984 is not an 'anti-Communist' tale; it is rather an essay on totalitarianism.

"But since a classless, ownerless society is generally spoken of as "Socialism", we can give that name to the society towards which we are now moving....Orwell

A classless, ownerless society without private property has nothing to do with the current British Labour Party's Capitalist definition of socialism, but rather it is a Communist defintion. To define the current British Labour Party as 'Socialists' is simply Orwellian Newspeak and such 'Socialism' bears no resemblance to the Socialism of Orwell and the ILP.


Lux

More on: http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/opinion/essays/storgaard1.html
Essay: George Orwell, Socialist, Anarchist or what...?

The fight over Orwell continues. He has been (mis)quoted by Thatcher, John Major, Rupert Murdoch and a bizarre raft of conservatives.

http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/site/opinion/essays/chen.html

Essays George Orwell a Literary Trotskyist?



__________________



"In the end I worked out an anarchist theory that all government is evil...


"The thing that attracts ordinary men to Socialism and makes them willing to risk their skins for it, the 'mystique' of Socialism, is the idea of equality; to the vast majority of people Socialism means a classless society, or it means nothing at all."



"I have got to struggle against that, just as I have got to struggle against castor oil, rubber truncheons and concentration camps. And the only régime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a Socialist régime."

"One has to be actively a Socialist, not merely sympathetic to Socialism, or one plays into the hands of our always-active enemies."

thelonious
15-05-2009, 02:27 PM
What utter nonsense.



From george-orwell.org:

Orwell had returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and anti-Communist, but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.

In 1949 Orwell was approached by a friend, Celia Kirwan, who had just started working for a Foreign Office unit, the Information Research Department, which had been set up by the Labour government to publish pro-democratic and anti-communist propaganda. He gave her a list of 37 writers and artists he considered to be unsuitable as IRD authors because of their pro-communist leanings.

http://www.george-orwell.org/l_biography.htm

luciferhorus
15-05-2009, 03:45 PM
From george-orwell.org:

Orwell had returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and anti-Communist, but he remained to the end a man of the left and, in his own words, a 'democratic socialist'.

In 1949 Orwell was approached by a friend, Celia Kirwan, who had just started working for a Foreign Office unit, the Information Research Department, which had been set up by the Labour government to publish pro-democratic and anti-communist propaganda. He gave her a list of 37 writers and artists he considered to be unsuitable as IRD authors because of their pro-communist leanings.

http://www.george-orwell.org/l_biography.htm

Yes I have read that about Orwell, however he was highly critical of certain forms of toralitarian socialism, but I consider defining Orwell as an anti-Communist to be simply Orwellian newspeak, since his form of 'democratic socialism' was then what we would now define as a form of Communism, albeit a state Capitalist type of reformism similar to Trotskyism; it is a world very far removed from the Capitalist cultists of Masonry and their current Capitalist and loan-sharking system; obviously despite the I.L.P's sympathies for the Anarchist Revolution, I would say that their reformism does not go far enough, but it would certainly be a world which would be anti-thetical to the Masonic aristocrats and usuryists of the city of London and where the current Grand Master would find himself stripped of his ranks and inheritances and essentially dismepowered, and very far away from Crowley's vision of a future world ruled by a few cult masters over the many slaves.

The Independent Labour Party (I.L.P)

http://www.the-ilp.org.uk/landfr01.gif


From: http://www.the-ilp.org.uk/const3.htm



Democratic socialism

Democratic socialism exists and needs to exist, because contemporary capitalist societies are corrupt in fundamental ways: by the unjustifiable and unaccountable economic control by a small minority; by the consequent concentration of immense power in a few hands; by the disempowerment of the majority and the social exclusion of a significant sector of society; and by gross inequalities, exploitation and injustice.
Democratic socialism also stands in opposition to the centralised State and the command economy, which can too easily become a centralised despotism, oppressing the very people it is supposed to serve.

Democratic socialism is opposed to the needless destruction of scarce resources and the greed and irresponsibility that have pushed us towards an alarming environmental crisis. It sets its face against the global economic disorder, deepening world poverty, huge levels of indebtedness in the `third world', wanton resource depletion, environmental degradation and unsustainable development. For this reason the democratic socialist project is international.

Independent Labour Publications, as with the Labour Party and all democratic socialists, is committed to the defence and extension of the democratic principles that work against gross economic and social divisions and concentrations of power. It embraces democracy which logically challenges economic elites, class rule and unaccountable bureaucracies; undermines the very notion of undemocratic control of vast capital assets; encourages community enterprise, socially owned co-operative projects and underwrites the demand for civil liberties, freedom of information and the extension of democratic practice in all walks of life.

The ILP recognises that there is a core conflict of interest within contemporary society; a conflict between those who seek to maintain an essentially undemocratic society in which ownership or control of the commanding heights of the economy are in the hands of a powerful minority and, conversely, those who seek a democratic political economy and society, in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many and not the few; where people have a stake in society and have a say in determining their economic fate, where there is freedom of access to information and the effective democratic right to control, to challenge and change priorities and to challenge and change the decision makers and their decisions.

thelonious
15-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Yes I have read that about Orwell, however he was highly critical of certain forms of toralitarian socialism,

He was highly critical of *all* forms of totalitarianism, including the one that you're promoting, which stinks of 1984. It's no accident that the KGB referred to Communist sympathizers in non-communist countries as "useful idiots".

grandsecretary
15-05-2009, 06:09 PM
He was highly critical of *all* forms of totalitarianism, including the one that you're promoting, which stinks of 1984. It's no accident that the KGB referred to Communist sympathizers in non-communist countries as "useful idiots".

A gross exaggeration, they are useful neither to man nor beast.

luciferhorus
15-05-2009, 06:44 PM
He was highly critical of *all* forms of totalitarianism, including the one that you're promoting, which stinks of 1984. It's no accident that the KGB referred to Communist sympathizers in non-communist countries as "useful idiots".


Contradiction is often the last cry of the desparate and a poor substitute for argument; for example an argument would state 'why' you consider Anarchism (anti-authoritarianism / anti-totalitarianism / without Archons / leaders) to be a form of totalitarianism, and why the Anarchist sympathiser Orwell was highly critical of Anarchism, which of course is quite the opposite perspective to that expressed in the 'Road to Catalonia. With regards to the Anarchist agenda having similarlities to '1984' this is entirely incorrect; the similarities are much more with the current world of economic masters and slaves which your Capitalist cult / cult of Capitalists represents.

Further I would not define Orwell as an Anarchist anyway, but rather merely a sympathiser who chose a different socialist path; I am merely disgusted when he is cited by anti-Communist religious cultists such as yourself to defend your anti-Communist ideology.

Lux

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

One must choose between God and Man, and all "radicals" and "progressives", from the mildest liberal to the most extreme anarchist, have in effect chosen Man.-- George Orwell,

thelonious
15-05-2009, 07:16 PM
for example an argument would state 'why' you consider Anarchism (anti-authoritarianism / anti-totalitarianism / without Archons / leaders) to be a form of totalitarianism, and why the Anarchist sympathiser Orwell was highly critical of Anarchism

I have no problem with anarcho-syndicalism as a concept. I don't think it would work in reality, but I have no problem expressing sympathies with it.

However, your personal form of "anarchism" calls for a holocaust of millions of innocent people. In other words, same old communist song and dance.

I am merely disgusted when he is cited by anti-Communist religious cultists such as yourself to defend your anti-Communist ideology.

George Orwell was not only an anti-Communist, but anti-Communist informant as previously mentioned. He opposed Communism for the same reason I do; while you call capitalism, Masonry, etc. "religious cults", the fact of the matter is that the *real* religious cult is Communism, and its followers tend to be brainwashed dupes, until they themselves are purged and their eyes are opened.

Of course by then it's too late.

In 1984, the villains are Ingsoc, Newspeak for "Party of English Socialism". Their motto, as mentioned, captures the true spirit of communism: War Is Peace, Freedom Is Slavery, Ignorance Is Strength.

luciferhorus
15-05-2009, 08:43 PM
I have no problem with anarcho-syndicalism as a concept. I don't think it would work in reality, but I have no problem expressing sympathies with it.

However, your personal form of "anarchism" calls for a holocaust of millions of innocent people. In other words, same old communist song and dance.



With regards to Orwell, his brand of socialism 'was' what many, particularly the Trotskyists define as Communism, and I have referred you to the ILP manifesto which makes this clear; he merely attacked and despised 'other' brands of Communism which he disagreed with.

Since the Capitalists are evangical, militant, apocalyptic and committed to world Capitalist revolution and the impoverishment and holocaust of millions of people; how do you suppose we should eradicate them, or do I understand you correctly that you would prefer to just let them get on with it? What exactly is your counterproposal and solution to the current Capitalist system, if you have one?

You can go on about the millions of victims of Communism (very few of whom were victims of Anarchism and those who were were predominately fascists of the Spanish Revolution) and I can go on about the billions of victims throughout history and in the world today of Capitalism; but you have to bear in mind that Capitalism and Communism are both militant ideologies; it is not a quantitative matter.

I think that Lenin once stated that if half the world had to die in a revolutionary war in order that the other half could live in Communist paradise that it would be justifiable; similarly the current elites plan to reduce population by 90% in order that they and their descendents can live in a paradise of Capitalist slaves and masters; even if I 'upped' Lenin's strategy to sacrificing 90% of humanity that the other 10% could live in a Communist paradise (not that I suggest this) it is still not a quantitative matter but one of political ideology and moral philosophy; but quantitatively I doubt if Communist could ever compete with the rivers of blood and human suffering shed throughout history by the priesthood of Capital.

Lux

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

http://timesnewgloaming.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/starvation.jpg

stewart edwards
15-05-2009, 09:04 PM
the current elites plan to reduce population by 90% in order that they and their descendents can live in a paradise of Capitalist slaves and masters;Luciferhorus you are having a laugh arent you? Seriously you are having a laugh. If any powers taht be wanted to eradicate 90% of teh global population they could use nuclear, chemical or biuological warfare agents pretty easily. Not forgetting the more esoteric conspiracy theory weapons. The simple fact that they havent sort of suggests that your belief here is wrong.

In many countries you would most likely be arrested for your views. In some you would no doubt be tortured, and not in the playful way of the pictures you sometimes post of sex dungeons. I mean really tortured, slowly, painfully and enduringly. But here in Britain you have the freedom and right to hold your views, along with a nhs, free schools, welfare state, etc etc. yet you would rise up and overthrow it. You have no idea how lucky you are.

If you want to be a general as you sometimes allude to why not become a mercenary? Soldier of fortune is the magazine I think you need. Or why not stand for election? I hear that parliament may need some new MPs once the police probe starts.

boots
15-05-2009, 09:20 PM
They are trying to eradicate the populations. Where do think these swine flu, Sars, etc come from to you think they just popped up? If you bothered to checkout the information in the rest of this site then you might be informed. Not all of it is opinions. There is factual evidence coming straight out of the MSM.

As for Lucifer POV on Capital or Communism. Its just boxes to me.

.

luciferhorus
15-05-2009, 10:11 PM
Luciferhorus you are having a laugh arent you? Seriously you are having a laugh. If any powers taht be wanted to eradicate 90% of teh global population they could use nuclear, chemical or biuological warfare agents pretty easily. Not forgetting the more esoteric conspiracy theory weapons. The simple fact that they havent sort of suggests that your belief here is wrong..

One could just as easily argue that when Hitler spoke of eradicating the jews from Europe in 1939 that because it hadn't happened yet, that it would not occur, which is rather flowed logic.


http://www.radioliberty.com/gg3.gif
Georgia Guidestones.

THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.

Limiting the population of the earth to 500 million will require the extermination of nine-tenths of the world's people

See also

Population Control Agenda by Stanley K Monteith, M D
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2297537/Conspiracy-Population-Control-Agenda-by-Stanley-K-Monteith-M-D

The Illuminati Wants to Reduce the Population with 90%!!!
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/illuminati_reduce_population.htm

WORLD DEPOPULATION IS TOP NSA AGENDA: CLUB OF ROME
The Haig-Kissinger depopulation policy

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/world/depopulation.htm

Even if such policies are not carried out, the Capitalists are doing very well with their wars, starvations, mad made epidemics such as HIV and so forth.

However, to be fair, I must point out that I am 'also' an evangelical proponent of the depopulation of the useless eaters who are the 'elites' of Capitalism; however this is not for environmental purposes, since we could feed the 6 billion here from a corner of the Sahara the size of Texas; it is purely a culling of the moral untermensch who are clearly unworthy of life and must be considered to be 'inferiors' who are not fit for life.

In many countries you would most likely be arrested for your views. In some you would no doubt be tortured, and not in the playful way of the pictures you sometimes post of sex dungeons. I mean really tortured, slowly, painfully and enduringly.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7364/785/400/bootcamp.0.jpg

I just so happen to live in one of those countries (the UK) whose military have a long history of torturing their enemies; including current extrajudical deportations to foreign nations for the purposes of torture, and I so happen to have a long history of deliberately choosing forums (such as this one) to debate on, which would be prime targets for the army of professional bloggers in the employment of the Anglo-American state terrorists and the assortment of vermin who defend them purely for sport.

http://infowars.net/pictures/Sept06/260906centcom2.jpg

Of course there are also countries now and in the past where you would be arrested for your counterrevolutionary propaganda.

http://www.alternet.org/images/managed/blogimage_thumb_bushtort.jpg

Torture is generally a chosen method of the Capitalist vermin in their wars and revolutions to strike terror into the hearts of their enemies.

http://www.bendib.com/newones/2006/september/small/9-16-U.S.-Torture.jpg

I might point out that since I hold that Communists should have a higher moral standard than the Captialist untermenshce that I do not support the torture of Capitalists; merely their swift executions.

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060915/siers.gif

I should point out that allegedly according to the alleged Grand Master of Masonry in the afterlife (i.e., Jesus on whose words Masons commonly swear their oaths), it is the Capitalists, hypocrites of religion, and those who falsely claim to misrepresent him who are abandoned to the tortures of hell in the afterlife in the eternal kingdoms of my father (the Devil).


'What we bind one arth, we bind in eternity'

As I underestand the afterlife, your enemies and allies become your eternal enemies and allies; if you defend the priesthood of Capital on earth and their assortment of mercenaries and torturers, you get to spend eternity with such vermin.

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060915/sack.jpg

There is a great and dreedful and wrathful penalty which awaits the anti-communists and the assorted chaff of state terrorist collaborators in Capitalist 'heaven;' all the evil of the torture, murder, genocide and wars shall be required of you 7 times 777.

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060915/stein.jpg

But here in Britain you have the freedom and right to hold your views, along with a nhs, free schools, welfare state, etc etc. yet you would rise up and overthrow it. You have no idea how lucky you are.

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060913/corky.gif

I could say the same thing about you; much of this progress has not been a consequence of the will of the aristocracy and monarchy, but that of the trade union movement and the socialist movement in general; yet today Britain is still among the main state terrorist nations, the second largest arm's manufacturer and an exporter of Capital (usury) and Capitalist revolution; it is not by what is innocent about this nation that it shall be judged, but by all the evil that it has spread throughout humanity.


If you want to be a general as you sometimes allude to why not become a mercenary? Soldier of fortune is the magazine I think you need. Or why not stand for election? I hear that parliament may need some new MPs once the police probe starts.

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/060907/bennett.jpg

That would be more appropriate for you; if you believe in Capitalism so much why not sell your mother to a Cambodian or thai brothel and go and live in some shanty town in Africa, or perhaps you could get yourself a tin hat and go and torture and murder the Muslms, and inject yourself with HIV while you are at it.

With regards to 'parliament' I already ran as an independent communist parliamnetary candidate in the 2001 election for the Brixton / Lambeth area (my Masonic father, the devil, put up the depoist by the way); however unfortunately I did not have the financing and media power of the labour party

Lux

stewart edwards
15-05-2009, 11:11 PM
With regards to 'parliament' I already ran as an independent communist parliamnetary candidate in the 2001 election for the Brixton / Lambeth area (my Masonic father, the devil, put up the depoist by the way); however unfortunately I did not have the financing and media power of the labour partyDo you think that you will stand again?

Also I am going to try to save the £5k deposit to stand at the next but one(ie 5 years time) European elections. If you have any advice for me based on your experience I would appreciate your thoughts.

luciferhorus
15-05-2009, 11:59 PM
Do you think that you will stand again?

Also I am going to try to save the £5k deposit to stand at the next but one(ie 5 years time) European elections.
.

When I ran in Brixton / Lambeth it was £500 plus 10 signatures; I was essentially running against the SWP (Socialist Workers Party), not the labour, conservatives and lib dems. It was just an excuse to put up 1000's of propaganda posters with regards to the history of narco-terrorism by the police and military, since Brixton is London's drug capital and had a gay, marijuana smoking, chief of police whose politics leant towards Anarchism; he also lost his election when he ran for mayor of London

.
If you have any advice for me based on your experience I would appreciate your thoughts.

Yes, try to be conservative, don't speak the truth, don't oppose anglo-american narco-terrorism and state terrorism, sell out, lie as much as possible, forget radical politics and sell your soul to the god of Capital; don't try to chane anything or resist the Capitalist establishment; be a good state terrorist colaborator; support the war in Iraq; that is generally how everybody else gets elected; and await your reward in Capitalist heaven along with Bush, Blair, Pinochet and numerous other Capitalist devils.


Lux

stewart edwards
16-05-2009, 10:44 AM
Luciferhorus

Thank you. Yes uk elections are £500, European £5000, though there is talk that this may be reduced to allow more independents like me to stand. Hopefully it will be.

Having got all that I want out of life (though I would like to tour the world and base jump in a bat suit), and having found that I do have a fairly rare perspective and skillset that has inspired people to achieve more in various fields, and which has indeed been recognised through a small award, I just want to help others get more out of life. I can do this in my community, and I can do itglobally through the internet, as I have beenfor years now, but it would be nice to step up the United Nations level. Though prior to that I think that I could be of value at a European level. It is quite funny in a way as ever since I took a university course on the economic theory of politics(ians) twenty odd years ago, I have never really trusted politicians and now find that I want to be one. Though British politics would wear me down to quickly as I have no time for the old boys network or currying favour, much preferring to see results and transparency.

British politics would probably destroy me, whereas European politics is somewhere that I think I could make a real difference, both to the EU and more importantly to people here. Though I would remain the gentle guiding hand/pain in the behind depending on your perspective that I am today. Or at least I hope that I would, for it works.

Anyhow thanks again luciferhorus.