illuminati and freemasonry

[xxxx]

correct me if i'm wrong but i thought that the illuminati was a group that split from the masons with the idea of sharing the 'hidden knowledge' with the rest of the world. and they've been painted badly by the freemasons.

[mike martin]

From what I've read, the modern day "conspiracy Illuminati" is mainly an imagined descendant of the Order of Perfectibilists (aka Bavarian Illuminati) founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776.

After he was initiated into a Masonic Lodge in 1777, he decided that he could turn the Bavarian Grand Lodge of Freemasons towards his own goals and ambitions. Unfortunately, for him, this led to his downfall and in 1784 the Illuminati was banned and he fled from Bavaria.

There are some groups claiming to be the Illuminati nowadays but looking at what they claim to be about they bear no similarities to Weishaupt's creation.

Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to get hold of any proper history of it, mainly because it was so short lived and didn't really achieve much apart from getting the imagination going. In the books where I've seen it mentioned it is just as a sidenote.

Mike

[boots]

From what I've read, the modern day "conspiracy Illuminati" is mainly an imagined descendant of the Order of Perfectibilists (aka Bavarian Illuminati) founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776.

After he was initiated into a Masonic Lodge in 1777, he decided that he could turn the Bavarian Grand Lodge of Freemasons towards his own goals and ambitions. Unfortunately, for him, this led to his downfall and in 1784 the Illuminati was banned and he fled from Bavaria.

There are some groups claiming to be the Illuminati nowadays but looking at what they claim to be about they bear no similarities to Weishaupt's creation.

Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to get hold of any proper history of it, mainly because it was so short lived and didn't really achieve much apart from getting the imagination going. In the books where I've seen it mentioned it is just as a sidenote.

Mike

The illuminati was a separate creation from the Freemasons. They used freemasonry to further the agenda for total control of the world and still are.

To label it "conspiracy illuminati" is ludicrous and shows that you have not looked into any thing that has been written about the global elite.


To think that the illuminati died out with the expulsion from Bavaria is just plain silly. These group of rich elitist and royalty dont give up there power that easliy with the control of finances and banking the can manipulate governments and the world economies.

Mayer Amschel Rothschild states, "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws."


Weishaupt also recruits 2,000 paid followers including the most intelligent men in the field of arts and letters, education, science, finance,and industry. They were instructed to follow the following methods in order to control people.
1) Use monetary and sex bribery to obtain control of men already in high places, in the various levels of all governments and other fields of endeavour. Once influential persons had fallen for the lies, deceits, and temptations of the Illuminati they were to be held in bondage by application of political and other forms of blackmail, threats of financial ruin, public exposure, and fiscal harm, even death to themselves and loved members of their families. 2) The faculties of colleges and universities were to cultivate students possessing exceptional mental ability belonging to well-bred families with international leanings, and recommend them for special training in internationalism, or rather the notion that only a one-world government can put an end to recurring wars and strife. Such training was to be provided by granting scholarships to those selected by the Illuminati.
3) All influential people trapped into coming under the control of the Illuminati, plus the students who had been specially educated and trained, were to be used as agents and placed behind the scenes of all governments as experts and specialists. This was so they would advise the top executives to adopt policies which would in the long-run serve the secret plans of the Illuminati one-world conspiracy and bring about the destruction of the governments and religions they were elected or appointed to serve.
4) To obtain absolute-control of the press, at that time the only mass-communications media which distributed information to the public, so that all news and information could be slanted in order to make the masses believe that a one-world government is the only solution to our many and varied problems.


.

[flyermay]

I think that the term "conspiracy illuminati" is quite accurate; after all, it refers to the enlighten ones (the elite) conspiring against the rest of humanity.

I'm also with Mike about the modern illuminati having almost nothing to do with Weishaupt secret underground organisation, which was banned by the Bavarian authorities almost 250 years ago. However, their spirit and principles of such organisation are still well alive, and even visible in modern organisations as the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), and the Bilderberg Group.

[boots]

I think that the term "conspiracy illuminati" is quite accurate; after all, it refers to the enlighten ones (the elite) conspiring against the rest of humanity.

I'm also with Mike about the modern illuminati having almost nothing to do with Weishaupt secret underground organisation, which was banned by the Bavarian authorities almost 250 years ago. However, their spirit and principles of such organisation are still well alive, and even visible in modern organisations as the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), and the Bilderberg Group.

Funny analogy there.

You agree with him that they have nothing to do with Weishaupt but agree that the spirit and principals still live on. Weishaupt was used to further the agenda through the freemasonic movement, although the masonic organization is just another arm of the octopus that has existed for hidden purposes.

That is what the Illuminati is about Their principals have been there for time memorial, their spirit has existed since the Sumerian times and it still lives on, as you say through the CFR the Bilderbergs and the Trilateral commission.

There is a french saying that go's like this.


"The more things change the more they stay the same".


Wise words.

.

[flyermay]

You agree with him that they have nothing to do with Weishaupt but agree that the spirit and principals still live on. Weishaupt was used to further the agenda through the freemasonic movement, although the masonic organization is just another arm of the octopus that has existed for hidden purposes.

I never said they are not related to the original "illuminati", I just said it is not the same secret underground organisation that Weishaupt created (following orders from the Rothschild). Now it is visible, and openly funded and supported by the elite.

[boots]

I never said they are not related to the original "illuminati", I just said it is not the same secret underground organisation that Weishaupt created (following orders from the Rothschild). Now it is visible, and openly funded and supported by the elite.


OK fair enough.

Do believe that the freemasonry is a tool of the illuminati?

.

[flyermay]

OK fair enough.

Do believe that the freemasonry is a tool of the illuminati?

Yes, they are. But, in the same sense that we are all used and manipulated by the elite.

Obviously, any freemasons will deny it; as well as 98% of the population. But in one way or another, each of us has its part and role inside the pyramid.

[boots]

Yes, they are. But, in the same sense that we are all used and manipulated by the elite.

Obviously, any freemasons will deny it; as well as 98% of the population. But in one way or another, each of us has its part and role inside the pyramid.

So we are really talking about how we use our energy or thoughts?

Or you could say. How our heart is used?

Do you use any symbols or rituals that give energy to those that use them ie: the Illuminati.

.

[thelonious]

correct me if i'm wrong but i thought that the illuminati was a group that split from the masons with the idea of sharing the 'hidden knowledge' with the rest of the world. and they've been painted badly by the freemasons.

The Illuminati didn't actually split from the Masons. It all started when Adam Weishaupt was fired from his job as a university professor because he was a liberal and a Deist. Weishaupt and his supporters believed in the concepts of freedom of speech and religion, and that the only way to secure those rights was by separating church and state. Because it was illegal to publicize such opinions, they had to form a secret society.

Speaking of the Illuminati, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

As Weishaupt lived under the tyranny of a despot & priests, he knew that caution was necessary even in spreading information, & the principles of pure morality. He proposed therefore to lead the Free masons to adopt this object & to make the objects of their institution the diffusion of science & virtue. He proposed to initiate new members into his body by gradations proportioned to his fears of the thunderbolts of tyranny.

This has given an air of mystery to his views, was the foundation of his banishment, the subversion of the masonic order, & is the colour for the ravings against him of Robinson, Barruel & Morse, whose real fears are that the craft would be endangered by the spreading of information, reason, & natural morality among men.

[mike martin]

Weishaupt was used to further the agenda through the freemasonic movement,
I'd be interested to read your opinion of how you think he managed to do this, seeing as he failed in his attempt to infiltrate the Bavarian Grand Lodge let alone all the rest of the Grand Lodges around the world.

I think I'd also be interested in how you reconcile the BI's intention to overthrow the religious controlled governments of the time with what Freemasonry does.

Mike

[ph0neyprophet]

Everyone on Sgt. Pepper was a Free Mason.

Makes you wonder if Paul really was dead, or they were building an agenda to start the hippie revolution.

[flyermay]

So we are really talking about how we use our energy or thoughts?

Or you could say. How our heart is used?

I was rather talking about physical resources, support and funding. But either way, it also applies to how we use our energy and thoughts, or were we put our heart.

Most people simply try to get on with their life and fit as best as they can in the system (regardless of who controls it or in which direction it’s going). We all learned that compliance with the system leads to rewards and non-compliance to punishment, so we are all forced to put our hearts into trying to make the best out of it.

Unfortunately, the pyramid of power has been really well engineered, and it’s been working under the same simple principle for thousands of years.

Do you use any symbols or rituals that give energy to those that use them ie: the Illuminati.

I think that we all use symbols in different ways, and each of us gives each symbol a different meaning. The power of each symbol depends on the power that each of us wants to put into it. For example: pick any religious symbol; it can causes at the same time: joy (to the followers of that religion), hate (to the followers of another religion), and indifference (to any atheist); it’s the same symbol, but it has a completely different effect on each of those subjects.

About the rituals... I do agree that they have a great power of suggestion, but that power only affects the participants (and even though, it depends quite a lot on their individual suggestibility).

[watson_k]

I think that we all use symbols in different ways, and each of us gives each symbol a different meaning. The power of each symbol depends on the power that each of us wants to put into it. For example: pick any religious symbol; it can causes at the same time: joy (to the followers of that religion), hate (to the followers of another religion), and indifference (to any atheist); it’s the same symbol, but it has a completely different effect on each of those subjects.

That's why there is a key to the symbols, to remove personal beliefs and interpretations.

[abcnick]

From what I've read, the modern day "conspiracy Illuminati" is mainly an imagined descendant of the Order of Perfectibilists (aka Bavarian Illuminati) founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776.

You seem to be a mason, but you also seem to understand nothing about this topic.

Let's just say that it would be more correct to call the Bavarian Illuminati an offshoot of the TRUE Illuminati (which is much much more secretive), than the other way around.

There's so many who think Weishaupts Illuminati was the original and the true Illuminati, this is far from the whole story though. As usual, it seems academia messes this story up and confuses the picture. It is academia who sticks to this story - probably just to avoid both conspiracy thinking and more non-scientific, "magickal" ways of thinking.

The real Illuminati has existed basically since time immemorial, or round about the time of the Sumerians like another poster here said. Some also say they go back to Atlantis.

However, it should be said that a LOT also indicates that there is a "good" and "bad" side to the true "Hidden Hand," equal to the right and left hand path of magick. And similar to the fact that the "chi" or original "foundational" energy of the universe (which goes by several names - orgone, ether and manna are other terms that comes to mind) may be "bent" in either direction (yes, like the concept of The Force in Star Wars, really ;)). However, some could probably argue that this is just the good old "bad cop, good cop" scenario, I'm not really sure what I should make of that. Although I'd probably tend to agree, to a certain extent.

However, in a sort of defense for Weishaupts Illuminati somehow being connected to the real deal, Germany seems to have a lot to do with all of this, theres so much of both magick and secret societies that seems to have either originated or had important centers in Germany or close to it, so it (Bavarian Illuminati) probably was somewhat important as well, however as we know, it was closed down not terribly long after it started, so to think that that was the only true Illuminati ever seems ridiculous to me.

I could say a couple more things about this, but I mainly wanted to clear up the common misunderstanding that Illuminati originated with Weishaupt, so I think this will suffice.

Oh, and I'd say that one element of "Illuminati" are those so called "ruling" families, but theres also another element of the even more hidden masters.... And to make it even more weird/insane or whatever, a lot of things indicate that at least some of them possess something we could call "the secret to eternal life," although it's probably not actually eternal, just really really long.

[boots]

I'd be interested to read your opinion of how you think he managed to do this, seeing as he failed in his attempt to infiltrate the Bavarian Grand Lodge let alone all the rest of the Grand Lodges around the world.

I think I'd also be interested in how you reconcile the BI's intention to overthrow the religious controlled governments of the time with what Freemasonry does.

Mike

He didn't fail to infiltrate the Bavarian freemasons he did it effectively and then was found out. This when the Barvarian government decided to ban it.

Weishaupt had the backing of the Rothschilds who of course had money and power. Maybe you missed this bit.

Weishaupt also recruits 2,000 paid followers including the most intelligent men in the field of arts and letters, education, science, finance,and industry. They were instructed to follow the following methods in order to control people. 1) Use monetary and sex bribery to obtain control of men already in high places, in the various levels of all governments and other fields of endeavour. Once influential persons had fallen for the lies, deceits, and temptations of the Illuminati they were to be held in bondage by application of political and other forms of blackmail, threats of financial ruin, public exposure, and fiscal harm, even death to themselves and loved members of their families. 2) The faculties of colleges and universities were to cultivate students possessing exceptional mental ability belonging to well-bred families with international leanings, and recommend them for special training in internationalism, or rather the notion that only a one-world government can put an end to recurring wars and strife. Such training was to be provided by granting scholarships to those selected by the Illuminati.
3) All influential people trapped into coming under the control of the Illuminati, plus the students who had been specially educated and trained, were to be used as agents and placed behind the scenes of all governments as experts and specialists. This was so they would advise the top executives to adopt policies which would in the long-run serve the secret plans of the Illuminati one-world conspiracy and bring about the destruction of the governments and religions they were elected or appointed to serve.
4) To obtain absolute-control of the press, at that time the only mass-communications media which distributed information to the public, so that all news and information could be slanted in order to make the masses believe that a one-world government is the only solution to our many and varied problems.

No solid proof regarding it. But it would have been one of the plans of the elite bloodlines to infiltrate the religious governments of the day. When looking into the P2 and the masonic influences there, then it's not hard to see that the infiltration has worked.

.

[flyermay]

That's why there is a key to the symbols, to remove personal beliefs and interpretations.

I think that the only key to any symbol is the one that a group wants to give to it; no interpretation of a symbol is more accurate than other, as interpretations are subjective (even if they are ancient).

[watson_k]

I think that the only key to any symbol is the one that a group wants to give to it; no interpretation of a symbol is more accurate than other, as interpretations are subjective (even if they are ancient).

Please flyermay, don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. There is only one original purpose for the symbols. There is only one real interpretation...One meaning. I'm on about the original creators of the symbols not the interpreters of the last few hundred years trying to make heads or tails of them.

After all, you don't write something in the hope that many different people understand them differently do you? The reason you have symbols is because they go beyond mere language. It would defeat the purpose if there were many meanings behind them.

[flyermay]

Please flyermay, don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. There is only one original purpose for the symbols. There is only one real interpretation...One meaning. I'm on about the original creators of the symbols not the interpreters of the last few hundred years trying to make heads or tails of them.

After all, you don't write something in the hope that many different people understand them differently do you? The reason you have symbols is because they go beyond mere language. It would defeat the purpose if there were many meanings behind them.

I understood what you meant, and I do agree that when someone places a symbol for a definite purpose, it shouldn't be misinterpreted by any of its variant meanings, as you would be losing the whole point of what he meant.

But we were talking about the power of symbols and how people are influenced by them.

Symbols are constantly adopted and its meaning changed by multitude of collectives and purposes, and the original meaning of those symbol is absolutely irrelevant in those cases; as the meaning of a symbol is subjective to each person. Therefore, the power of a symbol, as such, is in the eye of the beholder.

[watson_k]

Symbols are constantly adopted and its meaning changed by multitude of collectives and purposes, and the original meaning of those symbol is absolutely irrelevant in those cases; as the meaning of a symbol is subjective to each person. Therefore, the power of a symbol, as such, is in the eye of the beholder.

Only because they lack the knowledge of the original creators though, right? The original creators said "Read from the book of Nature", since we are all subject to the same laws of nature, I'm not sure how you can misinterpret nature wrongly. There's also the silver key of Masonry, which people who try to interpret the symbols have no knowledge of or just ignore it, to suit their own agenda.

[flyermay]

Only because they lack the knowledge or the original creators though, right?

Not necessarily, I might know what a symbol originally meant but also be conscious that it will have a different meaning and effect to most people. And therefore give purposly that symbol a different meaning from the original.

Obviously, when you are trying to interpret a symbol it is absolutely necessary to know what those symbols meant for the author and in which context. But that's exactly my point; many symbols have many different meanings for different authors.

[boots]

The symbols used by the Illuminati/freemasons are to seek control over those who view them. They give their power by accepting them as part of their philosophy.


.

[xxxx]

so is there a group thats the anti-masons? or whatever you want to call them? the anti-bad guys? i'm find it hard to believe that in the millenia scince babylon, or the centuries scince the masons got together, or the decades the nwo's been going, or whomever you think is the baddies. that there hasn't been a group of enlightened people who see whats going on and want to try and stop it. like the people on this forum but with more cash and better organised. y'know the pyramid of manipulation? well a pyramid of emancipation or something and we're at the bottom. is this making sense?
please nobody say jesus.

[thelonious]

that there hasn't been a group of enlightened people who see whats going on and want to try and stop it.

Ironically, that group was called the Illuminati.

[boots]

so is there a group thats the anti-masons? or whatever you want to call them? the anti-bad guys? i'm find it hard to believe that in the millenia scince babylon, or the centuries scince the masons got together, or the decades the nwo's been going, or whomever you think is the baddies. that there hasn't been a group of enlightened people who see whats going on and want to try and stop it. like the people on this forum but with more cash and better organised. y'know the pyramid of manipulation? well a pyramid of emancipation or something and we're at the bottom. is this making sense?
please nobody say jesus.

There are factions within the illuminati who are apposed to the domination of society.

There are also those in the Military who are working against the corruption.


There are also those in the banking sector who are working to make the system more just.

I dont think you will find one group that stands out as this would be to dangerous and not productive. You have to work behind the curtains.;).


Ironically, that group was called the Illuminati.

I cant believe how dumb some people are :rolleyes:

You have not done any research but have be feed disinfo by some wankers.


.

[xxxx]

right so, is it not 13 bad guy bloodlines being nasty and 8 secret masters being good guys? the baddies live in america and europe while the goodies live in tibet?
i'm sorry to be putting it so simply but alot of people disagree on little details, but everyone knows what i mean about goodies and baddies.
just so angry people know, i do spend alot of time researching this stuff. i just want to ask questions.

[abcnick]

right so, is it not 13 bad guy bloodlines being nasty and 8 secret masters being good guys? the baddies live in america and europe while the goodies live in tibet?
i'm sorry to be putting it so simply but alot of people disagree on little details, but everyone knows what i mean about goodies and baddies.
just so angry people know, i do spend alot of time researching this stuff. i just want to ask questions.

Sorry but, did you or anyone here actually read the thread?

In my post in this thread, I said that the Illuminati has a left and a right hand just like in magick with the left and the right hand path. The left is the more evil side and the right is the more good side.

However, the question remains whether this is just like f.ex. the democrats and the republicans - two sides of the same coin that ultimately works towards the same objectives. That's the question.

By the way, we also have something that's been described as the "templar faction" (yes, even today) and I'm under the impression that they work against the "evil" Illuminati agenda.

PS. And by the way, there's also the fact that good and evil ultimately don't exist - sort of - as they're both subjective values, i.e. what's good for me, might not be good for you, and vice versa.

Like for example, for the christians or the muslims, it's good if their religion gets a lot more power, or the ultimate power, but to any other religion (including christians if muslims get more power, and muslims if christians get more power) it's not that good. So in many ways, good and evil could be said to be illusions. Or at the very least, the distinctions between good and evil are not as clear as many like to think they are.

[stewart edwards]

Or at the very least, the distinctions between good and evil are not as clear as many like to think they are.Indeed, and remember everyone has both goodd and evil within them. You, me, fred flinstone, and the bloke next door.

[xxxx]

Sorry but, did you or anyone here actually read the thread?

In my post in this thread, I said that the Illuminati has a left and a right hand just like in magick with the left and the right hand path. The left is the more evil side and the right is the more good side.

However, the question remains whether this is just like f.ex. the democrats and the republicans - two sides of the same coin that ultimately works towards the same objectives. That's the question.

By the way, we also have something that's been described as the "templar faction" (yes, even today) and I'm under the impression that they work against the "evil" Illuminati agenda.

PS. And by the way, there's also the fact that good and evil ultimately don't exist - sort of - as they're both subjective values, i.e. what's good for me, might not be good for you, and vice versa.

Like for example, for the christians or the muslims, it's good if their religion gets a lot more power, or the ultimate power, but to any other religion (including christians if muslims get more power, and muslims if christians get more power) it's not that good. So in many ways, good and evil could be said to be illusions. Or at the very least, the distinctions between good and evil are not as clear as many like to think they are.

yeah i read the thread. i did start it off asking for info, it'd be rude of me not to of read what people said. i explictly asked about the bloodlines and the secret masters, and are they connected to the whole freemasons drama? but i don't know why i bother cause there's never any agreement with you people.

[watson_k]

so is there a group thats the anti-masons? or whatever you want to call them? the anti-bad guys? i'm find it hard to believe that in the millenia scince babylon, or the centuries scince the masons got together, or the decades the nwo's been going, or whomever you think is the baddies. that there hasn't been a group of enlightened people who see whats going on and want to try and stop it. like the people on this forum but with more cash and better organised. y'know the pyramid of manipulation? well a pyramid of emancipation or something and we're at the bottom. is this making sense?
please nobody say jesus.

"The Great White/Light Brotherhood" - Light...Illuminating the way, get it?