Destroying the mind

[mauviene]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

[maximumgravity1]

Is that not the question of the ages for all seeking enlightenment - to be able to think of....nothing

[ex_anser_ovo]

How much do we cling to what we breath in?

Every time we expand how we think, we are literally causing chemical, and electrical, processes to 'grease' our neural pathways. They become less and less resistant to information flow and conversion. Our thoughts become more like water gliding off a duck's back and onto a hot plate.

It is very hard to be attached to what is barely there long enough to even be quantified.

[mauviene]

How much do we cling to what we breath in?

Every time we expand how we think, we are literally causing chemical, and electrical, processes to 'grease' our neural pathways. They become less and less resistant to information flow and conversion. Our thoughts become more like water gliding off a duck's back and onto a hot plate.

It is very hard to be attached to what is barely there long enough to even be quantified.

That was boggling to my mind

but the boggling does nothing but cause more boggling:(

[mane]

Destroying the mind? The mind is a key, in the sense that we are sculpting every aspect of who we are from nothing to everything through functions of the mind. Thought is a tool for expressing one's existence, and when in harmony with that emptiness of mind, the beauty of mind is lucid, and reflected through infinity. The boggling is ultimately tension for growth through quantum leaps of vantage. The realization of void, or emptiness, as Osho says, "seeing, not thinking", and as I say, existing stringlessly, is the polar function as the contrast of something and nothing manifests an eternal predicament of oscillation for growth in vantage.

If anything at all, see that thought sculpts neural structures, reflecting one's reality. Mantras become focal points in the creation and destruction of mind. Nothing and everything becomes the eternal function of such, as one grows through oscillations, quantum leaping vantages, flowing; define MANE through the void of existence.

Ultimately, I am but a reflection of your self, and that is all.

[mauviene]

Destroying the mind? The mind is a key, in the sense that we are sculpting every aspect of who we are from nothing to everything through functions of the mind. Thought is a tool for expressing one's existence, and when in harmony with that emptiness of mind, the beauty of mind is lucid, and reflected through infinity. The boggling is ultimately tension for growth through quantum leaps of vantage. The realization of void, or emptiness, as Osho says, "seeing, not thinking", and as I say, existing stringlessly, is the polar function as the contrast of something and nothing manifests an eternal predicament of oscillation for growth in vantage.

If anything at all, see that thought sculpts neural structures, reflecting one's reality. Mantras become focal points in the creation and destruction of mind. Nothing and everything becomes the eternal function of such, as one grows through oscillations, quantum leaping vantages, flowing; define MANE through the void of existence.

Ultimately, I am but a reflection of your self, and that is all.

Thats crazy man, I've tried a mantra..but I always get deterred..when I mean mind of course I mean it's thinking aspect..the aspect of thought, turning what is mind (or thought) into simply thoughtless being.

[watson_k]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

I wouldn't say it's the epitome of all problems but... For a very long time, people have been in this situation, only practice makes perfect. (I know what a cliché) If it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing would it?

There is an old saying though, every time you get angry because you can't do it, it just makes the whole situation worse.

Like others have said, it's not about destroying the mind. It's about controlling your thoughts. So they're constructive instead of self gratifying.

You'll get there eventually mate. Good luck.

[mauviene]

I wouldn't say it's the epitome of all problems but... For a very long time, people have been in this situation, only practice makes perfect. (I know what a cliché) If it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing would it?

There is an old saying though, every time you get angry because you can't do it, it just makes the whole situation worse.

Like others have said, it's not about destroying the mind. It's about controlling your thoughts. So they're constructive instead of self gratifying.

You'll get there eventually mate. Good luck.

Well I actually want to end thought. But your right about the hard work part

[mane]

Thats crazy man, I've tried a mantra..but I always get deterred..when I mean mind of course I mean it's thinking aspect..the aspect of thought, turning what is mind (or thought) into simply thoughtless being.

Life is meditation. Think of mantra in terms of a sort of baseline rhythm of your thoughts[frequency], like recurring patterns, constantly shaping your experience. It is the degree of focus on a particular thought that determines the affect of a mantra-- thus conventional meditations are efficient approaches to mantras.

In order to 'turn off' thought, practice the art of seeing. Rather than thinking about an object, see into the asymptote of infinite detail. An artist strives to open that channel of seeing, allowing a heart to hand dynamic of interpretation.

I believe it begins with the art of letting go, learning to experience your thoughts rather have them, and begin to emphasize your role as an observer-- existing stringlessly, detached from all aspects of reality but void itself-- something words merely allude to. In letting go, energy is used efficiently, instead of gripping on to an imagined rope of reality, one flows in the bliss of stringless existence, happening, effortlessly gazing upon singularity. Things such as memory come and go, but something primal is at the heart of such organization, and seeing allows one to become more intimate with that essence.

The boggling of mind is but a stepping stone upon a journey devoid of footsteps.

Paradoxal paradigm is fanciful haze.

I'm going to post a piece of poetry of mine on that note--

Fanciful Haze

heaven's lathe hollows a fanciful haze,
following phase through figments I gaze,
wooden sculptures wink scars of weather,
wind and water,
watch an image gleam a lesson through faltering feathers,
stomachs flutter till flight happens upon night's
sight of one's self alight for dance unfettered,
pressures push and pull the observer, yet-
such a dawn of men beyond man manifest-
surfaces a soul's cry upon a canvas,
reflections script contours of vantage,
cresting an event horizon, I project-
through death into life by retrospect,
I am nothing for everything breath-
becomes in flux of phase from text-
to a thought wave actions reflect,
consciousness is but the sea I sail,
GOD is my gale, gander the whales-
conversing frequencies, telling tales,
Time exists for beauty like braille-
for the blind man to unveil, inhale-
a world of words waving silent scales-
of colors in octave of cradle to grave,
my mind mingles in a-maze of fractal,
Infinite from micro to macro,
Dreams ream a void to expand a land,
I create the vacuum my subtle hands-
alliterate signatures at the slight of man,
gaze within to beyond to understand,
each step rewrites the plan, which is the plan;
paradoxal paradigm is fanciful haze.

M1

[branjo]

Our minds at the moment are out of control, we think we are our minds and we are not. The mind has transformed into the ego and the ego is not us either.

I think you are right on the money mauviene, I have been reading Eckhart Tolle's "The power of Now" and he deals with this very dilemma beautifully. You would not regret reading it.

[hellosatellites]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

The mind is just a chatterbox - it can't even be trusted to tell the truth. It swings wildly from one extreme to the other, or repeat the same old same old for hours on end. It can be tricked very easily, so it's not even all that intelligent - although mind loves to tell us that it is synonymous with intelligence. It's not. Intelligence is something different altogether. The mind, unless you direct it to be more beautiful and creative, is a boring old fart. We are crediting it with way more importance than it warrants. But then we are conditioned to (our left brain worship societys have done their utmost to secure that) and we have been conditioned to identify with it, PRECISELY because it is untrustworthy and impressionable, and leaves us vulnerable to manipulation and exploitation by those that understands how to 'play on minds' (actually prey on minds).
Don't take your mind too seriously, is my advice. Listen to it, observe it and treat it like you would any old chatterbox who bangs on about stuff that is really not all that important; Let the thoughts go in one ear and out the other. And in moments of calm, you know the stretch of silence and serenity in the gaps between 2 thoughts - heave a sigh of relief and smile.
This is called meditation incidently. It works.
I don't think it's likely we will ever stop thinking completely (not as long as we have mind) but the gaps between thoughts can become longer, more joyful, more refreshing and healing. And the thoughts themselves can become more creative, compassionate, wild and fun.

Thoughts come and go. It's really no big deal. Imo. :)

Ps. you chose to say destroying the mind. There are so many other options; Ignoring the mind, laughing with the mind, massaging the mind, painting the mind, Dancing with the mind, observing the mind...and on and on.

[crying bee]

that which you (want to) distroy you become.

distroying the mind.

by the same token, all those who want to distroy my mind become it. those in society who do so will pay.

you cant kill anything.

to measure anything on our time span - human life, human civilisation and society, is laughable. for the infinite will reveal all in the end.

[size_of_light]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

While you have a mind you'll always have thoughts. Thoughts are the natural radiance of the mind like rays of light are the natural radiance of the sun, so the thoughts themselves are no problem.

You don't need to get rid of your thoughts, but if you can become less and less attached to them and not chase after them, then they still arise, but they also settle again and dissolve back into the nature of your mind of their own accord.

Or to put it another way: Learning to meditate is the answer to your question.

[thoughtonfire]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

The Mind is Like The Hand and Thoughts are Like Sign Language.

[thoughtonfire]

The Mind is Like The Hand and Thoughts are Like Sign Language.

Sign Language has no existence other than The Hand does.

[thoughtonfire]

Jiddu Krishnamurti
On Kundalini

The other question is what Pupulji raised about an endless journey. You want to discuss kundalini?
P: Yes, sir.
K: Sir, first of all, if you really want to discuss, have a dialogue about kundalini, would you forget everything you have heard about it? Would you? We are entering into a subject which is very serious. Are you willing to forget everything you have heard about it, what your gurus have told you about it, or your attempts to awaken it? Can you start with a completely empty state?
Then you have to enquire, really not knowing anything about kundalini. You know what is happening now in America, in Europe. Kundalini centres have been opened by people who say they have had the experience of the awakening of kundalini. Scientists are interested in it today. They feel that by doing certain forms of exercise, breathing, they will awaken the kundalini. It has all become a moneymaking concern, and it is being given to people who are terribly mischievous.
Q: We just want to know whether there is an energy that can wipe out conditioning.
K: So long as self-centred activity exists, you cannot touch it. That is why I object to any discussion on kundalini or whatever that energy is, because we have not done the spade work. We don’t lead a life of correctness and we want to add something new to it and so carry on our mischief.
VA: Even after awakening kundalini, self-centred activity continues.
K: I question whether the kundalini is awakened. I don’t know what you mean by it.
VA: Sir, we really want to understand this, because it is an actuality sometimes.
P: Do you know of an energy when self-centred activity ends? We assume that this is the source of this endless energy. It may not be.
K: Are you saying the ending of this movement from the centre to the circumference and from the circumference to the centre, the end of that …
P: Momentary ending of it …
K: No, the ending of it, the complete ending of it – is the release of that energy which is limitless?
P: I don’t say that.
K: I am saying that.
P: Which is a very different thing to me saying it.
K: Can we put kundalini energy in its right place? A number of people have the experience of what they call kundalini, which I question. I question whether it is an actual reality or some kind of physiological activity which is attributed to kundalini. You live an immoral life in the sense of a life of vanity, sex, etc. and then you say that your kundalini is awakened. But your daily life, which is a self-centred life, continues.
P: Sir, if we are going to examine it, let us see how it operates in one. The awakening of kundalini is linked to certain psychic centres located at certain physical parts of the body. That is what is said. The first question I would like to ask is whether that is so? Has the release of this energy, which as no end, anything to do with the psychic centres in the physical parts of the body?
A: Before we go into that, sir, is it not essential to enquire whether the person who acquires that energy is incapable of doing harm.
K: No, sir. Do be careful. How can we say somebody is incapable of doing harm? They say many Indian gurus have done tremendous harm misleading people.
A: That is what I say, sir. I feel that unless the person’s heart is cleansed of hate, and his thirst to do harm is completely transmuted, unless that has happened, then this energy can do nothing but more mischief.
K: Achyutji, what Pupulji is asking about is the standard acceptance of the power of this energy going through various centres and the releasing of energy and so on.
A: I say, sir, that before we ask that question, there is in the Indian tradition a word which I think is very valuable. That word is ‘adhikar’. Adhikar means that the person must cleanse himself sufficiently before he can pose this question to himself. It is a question of cleansing.
K: Are you saying that unless there is a stoppage of this movement from the centre to the circumference and from the circumference to the centre, that Pupulji’s question is not valid?
A: I think so. I will use another word, the Buddhist word is ‘sheela’. It is really the same. The word ‘adhikar’ used by the Hindus and the word ‘sheela’ used by the Buddhist really mean the same thing.
P: I take it that when one asks the question, there is a depth of self-knowing with which one asks. It is not possible to investigate the self which also releases energy, if one’s life has not gone through a degree of inner balance, otherwise what K says has no meaning. When one listens to Krishnaji, one receives at the depth to which one has exposed oneself, and therefore I think it is right to ask the question. Why is this question more dangerous than any other question? Why is it more dangerous than inquiring into what is thought, what is meditation, what is this, what is that? To the mind which will comprehend, it will comprehend this and that. To the mind which will not comprehend, it will comprehend neither. To the mind which wants to misuse, it will misuse anything.
K: Unless your life, your daily life is a completely nonself-centred way of living, the other cannot possibly come in.
VA: There is arising of energy – there is delight at first, then fear.
S: We would like to know why that energy creates fear.
VA: Fear comes later. One experiences death and everything vanishes. You are alive again and you are surprised that you are alive again. You find the world again, and your thoughts, and your possessions and desires and the whole world slowly come back.
K: Would you call that, sir, the awakening of kundalini?
VA: I don’t know, sir.
K: But why do you label it as the awakening of kundalini?
VA: For a few days after that, for a period of a month, the whole life changes. Sex vanishes, desires vanish.
K: Yes, sir, I understand. But you do come back to it again.
VA: One comes back to it because one doesn’t understand.
K: That is what I am saying, sir. When there is a coming back to something, I question whether you have had that energy.
P: Why has this question awakened so many ripples? Most people go through a great deal of psychic experiences in the process of self-knowing. One also understands, at least one has understood because one has listened to Krishnaji, that all psychic experience when they arise, have to be put aside.
K: Is that understood? Psychic experiences must be totally put aside.
A: We put them aside, not only give no importance to them.
VA: Some new passages do get opened in the body, and the energy keeps rising in those passages whenever it is required.
K: Sir, why do you call it something extraordinary? Why do we attribute something extraordinary to this? I am just suggesting, it may be that you have become very sensitive. That is all. Very acutely sensitive.
VA: I have more energy.
K: Sensitivity has more energy. But why do you call it extraordinary, kundalini this, that or the other?
P: The real problem is to what extent is your life totally changed. I mean the only meaning of awakening is if there is a totally new way of looking, a new way of living, a new way of relationship.
…
K: I live a life of torture, misery, confusion. That is my basic feeling and can that end? There is no motive.
…
Can that whole process end? Only then can I answer the other questions, which have tremendous significance.
P: What is the nature of the soil of the human mind which has to be cultivated to receive the other? You tell me that is also a wrong question. You say I am in conflict, I am suffering and I see that a life of conflict and suffering has no end.
K: That is all. If it cannot end, then the other enquiry and investigation, and the wanting to awaken the other in order to wipe this out is a wrong process.
P: Obviously.
K: It is asking an outside agency to come and clear up your house. I say in the process of clearing the house, this house, there are a great many things that are going to happen. You will have clairvoyance, the so-called ‘siddhis’ and all the rest of it. They will all happen. But if you are caught in them, you cannot proceed further. If you are not caught in them, the heavens are open to you. You are asking, Pupul, is there a soil that has to be prepared, not in order to receive that, but the soil has to be prepared? Prepare, work at that, clean the house so completely that there isn’t the shadow of escape. Then, we can ask, what is the state we are all talking about. If you are doing that, preparing, working at the ending of sorrow, not letting go, if you are working at that and you come along and say is there something known as kundalini power, then I am willing to listen.
A: Sir, the reason why I objected is that in the Hatha yoga Pradipika text we make a statement that this investigation into kundalini is in order to strengthen you in your search.
K: For God’s sake, Achyutji, are you working at clearing up the house?
A: Definitely.
K: Now, what is the question? Is there an energy which is non-mechanistic, which is endless, renewing itself? I say there is. Most definitely. But it is not what you call kundalini. The body must be sensitive. If you are working, clearing up the house, the body becomes very sensitive. The body then has its own intelligence, not the intelligence which the mind dictates to the body. Therefore, the body becomes extraordinarily sensitive, not sensitive to its desires, or sensitive to wanting something, but it becomes sensitive per se. Right? Then, what happens? If you really want me to go into it, I’ll do so. The people who speak of the awakening of kundalini, I question. They have not worked at the other, but say they have awakened kundalini. Therefore, I question their ability, their truth. I am not antagonistic, but I am questioning it. A man who eats meat, wants publicity, wants this and that and says his kundalini is awakened, I say it is nonsense. There must be a cleansing of this house all the time. Then Pupul says, ‘Can we talk about an energy which I feel must exist?’, not theoretically but of which she has had a glimpse, the feeling of it, an energy that is endless; and K comes along and says ‘yes’, there is such a thing. There is an energy which is renewing itself all the time, which is not mechanistic, which has no cause, which has no beginning and therefore no ending. It is an eternal movement. I say there is. What value has it to the listener? I say ‘yes’ and you listen to me. I say to myself what value has that to you? Will you go off into that and not clear up the house?
P: That means, sir, that to the person who enquires, it is the cultivation of the soil which is the ending of suffering, which is essential.
K: The only job. Nothing else. It is the most sacred thing, therefore you can’t invite it. And you are all inviting it.
Clearing up the house demands tremendous discipline, not the discipline of control, suppression and obedience, you follow? In itself it demands tremendous attention. When you give your complete attention, then you will see a totally different kind of thing taking place, an energy in which there is no repetition, an energy that isn’t coming and going. It is not as though I have it one day and a month later I don’t have it. It implies, keeping the mind completely empty. Can you do that?
VA: For a while.
K: No, no. I have asked: Can the mind keep itself empty? Then, there is that energy. You don’t even have to ask for it. When there is space, it is empty and therefore full of energy. So, in cleansing, in ending the things of the house, of sorrow, can the mind be completely empty, without any motive, without any desire? When you are working at this, keeping the house clean, other things come naturally. It isn’t you who are preparing the soil for that. That is meditation.
P: And the nature of that is the transformation of the human mind.
K: You see as Apa Saheb was saying, we are programmed to centuries of conditioning. When there is the stopping of it, there is an ending of it. If you pull the plug out of the computer, it can’t function any more. Now, the question is: Can that centre, which is selfishness, end? And not keep on and on? Can that centre end? When that ends, there is no movement of time. That is all. When the movement of the mind from the centre to the periphery stops, time stops. When there is no movement of selfishness, there is a totally different kind of movement.

Exploration into Insight, Bombay, 18th januari, 1977, p. 83- 92 (CD-Rom code EP79EI-07)

NAVRAS

From delusion lead me to truth

From darkness lead me to light

From death lead me to immortality

Let there be peace everywhere

When the five senses and the mind,

are still

and reason itself,

rests in silence

then begins the Path supreme.


- Brhadaranyaka Upanisad, 1.3.28 -

[unusual_suspect]

While you have a mind you'll always have thoughts. Thoughts are the natural radiance of the mind like rays of light are the natural radiance of the sun, so the thoughts themselves are no problem.

You don't need to get rid of your thoughts, but if you can become less and less attached to them and not chase after them, then they still arise, but they also settle again and dissolve back into the nature of your mind of their own accord.

Or to put it another way: Learning to meditate is the answer to your question.

My old martial arts teacher used to practise a form of meditation, I can't remember the name for it (it was some sort of buddhist meditation) and it involved pretty much what you are describing.

Just observing you thoughts letting them come, go, but being detached. He was a great bloke.

[thoughtonfire]

The impossible question is this: can the mind empty itself of the known?

[branjo]

Jiddu Krishnamurti's teachings are absolutely and profoundly correct even for today.

Even though he speaks of peace he shows real guts in what he is saying, for us all to just stop with the excuses of the past and the wants and needs of the future, we must change right now through conscious choice.

There is never a time in your life where you cannot change through choice, ever. Whether you are on your deathbed or in your cradle, consciousness is there to be used. Making the start is the most crucial thing to achieving anything, without a start nothing can be achieved.

The thoughts we have running through our heads are not wonderful and beautiful they are a waste of potential. Day dreaming may be a beautiful thing to us, and we all do it but if they never make it into actions of the real world then they are pointless.

We say we want a better world and just leave it at that, we think that fighting the nwo is worth anything, its not. Its just so the ego can say it tried when it knows its going to fail. "Well at least I tried to wake people up" or "At least I posted leaflets and screamed the loudest at a demonstration" doesn't mean a damn thing.

If your home is not running in perfection then how the hell can you expect to invade someone else's home with your recipes when they don't work for you first and foremost.

Unknowingly, the truth movement is its own worst enemy, we don't need to free the masses, we need to "show" the masses that we are free. Your not going to take fitness techniques from a fat dude that can't even run for the bus, so why would you take freedom advice from someone caught up in the fear and constant conflict of life?

Be the person who says good morning to you for no apparent reason and who lifts your expectations for the day, one random act of unselfish kindness can and will cause a ripple in the pond and there is no telling how far that can reach.

If I posted in someones mailbox every single piece of information about he Illuminati or nwo and they read it, they would feel either disbelief or fear, either way the person is reduced in power. If I post a leaflet with all the encouragement I can muster and tell that person they are so unique on this world that there will never be another like them and although we have never met, I know they are doing something good for the world just by living in it and doing their best. Then no harm has been done, and if that made them lift there head a little higher that day then that is the key to it all. If a cop starts some useless mind game with them then they will say "no im sorry but I don't have to take that from you" or a government official is trying to put them down, they are not going to be able too because that person has a little extra self worth and feels the power running through them, because they were treated like a human being instead of a person being told their life is a joke and a scam and how they need to open their eyes to the evil in the world.

Terrible things have been done with good intentions and people need to realize just what old Jiddu was on about, it all boils down to conflict, we should just turn our backs on conflict, not each other. In a war between good and evil, good does not fight, good does not kill for any reason, good will die standing to the end, and as long as it remains true to the end, good will win. Evil will always be looking for the fight and will use any excuse to get it, even good causes have been used for bad intentions.

It is a deep personal and spiritual choice that we each must come to terms with in our own consciousness, are you for the good or for the evil in the world? because there is very little time left to sit on the fence. You can't live in the middle forever anymore, your either part of the solution or you are adding to the problem, and "unconsciousness" is the problem we are facing.

By all means try and wake people up, but wake them up with the strength and beauty of them as human beings, don't wake them up with agendas of death and destruction or else your not empowering the spirit, your suffocating it. People will never overcome the evil in the world if they don't have the will to do it. Standing up against the tyranny won't work with doom in the back of your mind.

The mind is just a tool, it should be expressing what the true self wants to express, but its not doing that, for nearly all of us its expressing what the ego wants. The mind is a computer and the ego is at the moment the one who is sitting in front of the keyboard holding the mouse. We are not in control of our minds and haven't been for a long long time. Its time to take it back and let the materialistic ego fade and let your true nature shine through your mind onto the world.

Peace starts within and no where else.

[size_of_light]

My old martial arts teacher used to practise a form of meditation, I can't remember the name for it (it was some sort of buddhist meditation) and it involved pretty much what you are describing.

Just observing you thoughts letting them come, go, but being detached. He was a great bloke.

If you've never tried it you should give it a go. You'll be amazed to find that with practice it actually works!

[lenejento]

Nice, cheers Branjo :)

[mila]

from:
http://www.whale.to/w/mind.html#Stockholm_Syndrome
This is an article on brainwashing (through tv, church, cults) and there is this part about meditation which I find very interesting:

"The second thought stopping technique is MEDITATION. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad - if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat."



"I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana - which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non- thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here."

and: "You need to know that if you use these techniques to the degree of remaining continually in alpha that, although you'll be very mellow, you'll also be more suggestible." (by Dick Sutphen)




I personally think they, the ptb, want us to have a blank mind, keeping people in permanent hypnotic alpha-state through television,
because that way, no one will think, question things and eventually find out the truth about life and true creation.

[branjo]

Well I think Mr Sutphen's first name, is spot on :D

[mane]

from:
http://www.whale.to/w/mind.html#Stockholm_Syndrome
This is an article on brainwashing (through tv, church, cults) and there is this part about meditation which I find very interesting:

"The second thought stopping technique is MEDITATION. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad - if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat."



"I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana - which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non- thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here."

and: "You need to know that if you use these techniques to the degree of remaining continually in alpha that, although you'll be very mellow, you'll also be more suggestible." (by Dick Sutphen)




I personally think they, the ptb, want us to have a blank mind, keeping people in permanent hypnotic alpha-state through television,
because that way, no one will think, question things and eventually find out the truth about life and true creation.

The flatter your mind becomes? That's bullshit.

Brain waves become deeper and more resonant during meditation in respect of alpha, theta, and delta wave-states. In all profundity, gamma brain waves are of even higher frequencies than beta (sometimes regarded within beta), being recorded during super-cognitive states, and are regarded as the deepest states of meditation. Advanced meditators and peak performers experience gamma brain waves more often than others.

Information is not processed with bias during deeper alpha states and theta states, which could be utilized negatively or positively; respectively, brain washing or learning, which is one of the principles this article builds on, but fails to even realize-- emphasizing my claim to bullshit.

I am wary of calling meditation thought-stopping, because it is so much more than simply stopping thoughts. For the matter, thought stopping is a negative connotation of the phenomena-- think in positives.

Anything is everything and nothing; what is a thought?

Do your research.

[enga]

I've just been reading Tara Brach - Radical Acceptance and theres at least a chapter where she talks about a recurring thought coming to her she could not get rid of and how she dealt with it on a buddhist meditation retreat. Very good book.

[esse]

Life is meditation. Think of mantra in terms of a sort of baseline rhythm of your thoughts[frequency], like recurring patterns, constantly shaping your experience. It is the degree of focus on a particular thought that determines the affect of a mantra-- thus conventional meditations are efficient approaches to mantras.

In order to 'turn off' thought, practice the art of seeing. Rather than thinking about an object, see into the asymptote of infinite detail. An artist strives to open that channel of seeing, allowing a heart to hand dynamic of interpretation.

I believe it begins with the art of letting go, learning to experience your thoughts rather have them, and begin to emphasize your role as an observer-- existing stringlessly, detached from all aspects of reality but void itself-- something words merely allude to. In letting go, energy is used efficiently, instead of gripping on to an imagined rope of reality, one flows in the bliss of stringless existence, happening, effortlessly gazing upon singularity. Things such as memory come and go, but something primal is at the heart of such organization, and seeing allows one to become more intimate with that essence.

The boggling of mind is but a stepping stone upon a journey devoid of footsteps.

Paradoxal paradigm is fanciful haze.

I'm going to post a piece of poetry of mine on that note--

Fanciful Haze

heaven's lathe hollows a fanciful haze,
following phase through figments I gaze,
wooden sculptures wink scars of weather,
wind and water,
watch an image gleam a lesson through faltering feathers,
stomachs flutter till flight happens upon night's
sight of one's self alight for dance unfettered,
pressures push and pull the observer, yet-
such a dawn of men beyond man manifest-
surfaces a soul's cry upon a canvas,
reflections script contours of vantage,
cresting an event horizon, I project-
through death into life by retrospect,
I am nothing for everything breath-
becomes in flux of phase from text-
to a thought wave actions reflect,
consciousness is but the sea I sail,
GOD is my gale, gander the whales-
conversing frequencies, telling tales,
Time exists for beauty like braille-
for the blind man to unveil, inhale-
a world of words waving silent scales-
of colors in octave of cradle to grave,
my mind mingles in a-maze of fractal,
Infinite from micro to macro,
Dreams ream a void to expand a land,
I create the vacuum my subtle hands-
alliterate signatures at the slight of man,
gaze within to beyond to understand,
each step rewrites the plan, which is the plan;
paradoxal paradigm is fanciful haze.

M1

:) Nice stuff... loved this line:


Time exists for beauty like braille-
for the blind man to unveil, inhale-

SWOON!

[mane]

Thanks!

I find myself recurring these lines--

"Dreams ream a void to expand a land,
I create the vacuum my subtle hands-
alliterate signatures at the slight of man,
gaze within to beyond to understand,"

[nectars]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety


Look into Lester Levenson and David R.Hawkins work.

You can pretty much use any or all of the followings techniques to silence the bugger effectively(yes I know there are loads of methods out there but these are by far the fastest I've found by study, research and application). Understanding of the mind and consciousness through familiarity(Hawkins work); scortching it by using "What am I?" to identify with your Self of releasing the feelings/wants driving the thoughts themselves -which achieves the same as "what am I?" only by a different route(Levensons work).

Hope this helps

[esse]

Thanks!

I find myself recurring these lines--

"Dreams ream a void to expand a land,
I create the vacuum my subtle hands-
alliterate signatures at the slight of man,
gaze within to beyond to understand,"

Gaze within to beyond to understand.. yeah... that is sweet hafta admit :)

[sevenworlds]

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

Accept the fact that you cannot end thought and stop right there. Don't make one more move. Every movement we make to end thought is actually perpetuating it but we never realise this.

When you go to meditate, to try this technique, or read this book, or ask the question you have, you are using thought. So you are trying to use thought to end thought. See the absurdity of it?

It is the one who wants to end thought that must be elimintated. You, yourself, are a thought and when that is seen you will disappear. Then thought will still happen but never trouble you.

[branjo]

I don't really think that is what he means, of course you cannot stop all thoughts, per se, but you can learn to stop the thoughts that serve no purpose. Fear and hopes are the thoughts we should concentrate on stopping or greatly reducing in occurrence, both of those types of thoughts are either in the past or in the future and never in the present.

Meditation isn't to stop thoughts, its to stop thinking, stopping scrutinizing everything that serves no purpose to you the human being. We are told to think in every second of everyday about things that play absolutely no part in our lives. We hear all over the TV that the average human has something like 12,000 thoughts a day and if you hear this enough..lol it actually does make you think about what you are thinking about, which is completely pointless.

To meditate is to be the observer of your own presence, to experience everything around you in the present moment, you may stop thoughts but you do not stop feeling, some or most thoughts stop you from "feeling" and by doing this everyday of our lives we get disconnected from the very essence of being who we are.

The Mind is a tool, nothing more, it cannot save your life because apparently the mind operates on 24hz, which may sound fast until you get into a life and death situation and your mind "completely" shuts down and something else takes over that saves your life, people call this intuition or their true self. All it wants is for you to continue living, it plays no part in your everyday boring or exciting life, it doesn't care what way you fill your day but when push comes to shove, it will push the feeble mind aside and do what has to be done.

This is why I believe we don't exist in our brains and we don't exist in our bodies, we only operate them and I couldn't tell you from how far away. I believe we are basically remote viewing from somewhere else and just have control over our bodies, but the vessel we have has a very big problem, the brain/mind/ego it has slowly gotten into the habit of defining us. We think we are this body or this mind and we are far from that.

This egoic mind see's the body as the start and the end of existence and it fears and hopes, it is chained to the life expectancy of the body and it doesn't want to die, it will convince the operator of the body that certain things will need to be done to further life or comfort in life, and as we can see by the horrible acts of some people, it will do absolutely anything it can to remain in control.

This is very much a side of us that needs to be stopped in its tracks. No one is born bad, its other people that make us that way, and if we continue to let this happen then we are simply to blame for it. There is a loop going around in the life of us all in some respects and that loop is not a vicious circle it can be broken at any time or in any second simply by letting go of the things that serve no purpose in life, this is what enlightenment means (for me). To drop the weight of certain things that are simply baggage, money, clothes, cell phones, computers, Ipods, fancy tasteful foods, cars, cigarettes, drugs and alcohol.

We have maybe incarnated here for so long that we actually have given a sort of "AI" to the brain of the human body, and its starting to go in a completely contrary direction to where it should be, it is focusing on the self serving direction and not the self that is the part of the one true self. The operator is losing control of the machine because the machine is now "self" aware, it has lost belief in its purpose and is just our for itself now.

By touching base with oneness it keeps us going in the right direction, we are no where near true oneness, because we haven't even started yet, only a few people throughout our recorded history have achieved oneness and look at the mess that followed in the form of religion of that persons teachings.

If everyone wants a better world then we all need to stop useless thinking completely and spend some time not thinking at all, when we are centered with ourselves and in harmony with the rest of life on this planet and only from a personal perspective not a planet of people, one by one is fine and dandy, because every little helps. then we can start using the mind for what it is for, a problem solving tool to do whats right for all life, not just the individual.

Anyway, it was just a thought...:D

[sevenworlds]

Fear and hopes are the thoughts we should concentrate on stopping or greatly reducing in occurrence, both of those types of thoughts are either in the past or in the future and never in the present.

All thought is from the past. The future is only the past projected forward. What can you say about the future that isn't from the past? I would say its not the thoughts we should be trying to stop but looking at who or what is concerned with the thoughts. If that one (which is itself a thought) is identified the whole thing will fall into place.

Meditation in the sense 99.9% of people are using it is a form of concentration, like holding your breath. You are trying to hold your thoughts. You might manage it for some time if you concentrate long enough and then convince yourself you felt your own presence. As soon as you say to yourself "I am going to meditate" you are already in trouble.

To meditate is to be the observer of your own presence

That means there is two. An observer observing something it calls presence. It's a trick of the mind, of thought, splitting itself into two.

There is a loop going around in the life of us all in some respects and that loop is not a vicious circle it can be broken at any time or in any second simply by letting go of the things that serve no purpose in life, this is what enlightenment means (for me). To drop the weight of certain things that are simply baggage, money, clothes, cell phones, computers, Ipods, fancy tasteful foods, cars, cigarettes, drugs and alcohol.

Can it be dropped? Who is making the decision to drop it? You see, the second part of what you say there is a hint. We drop this and that, drop smoking, drop alcohol, cars, women, money, whatever. This tricks us into believing we are getting somewhere but while we are dropping one thing we're picking up another. So we might drop junk food and feel good. Yet what are we replacing it with? Health food. We stop smoking and start exercising. We don't see that it doesn't matter whether the habit is 'good' or 'bad', it is still a habit, still an idea, a thought. All of it must be dropped but how can you choose to drop everything? Can you do it?

Again, how can you "touch base with oneness"? If you even touch oneness for a split second you become it. No way back. That oneness you speak of in the right direction is a false mind created state, where there is very much two still in operation. What you call 'true oneness' you are already pushing it away. By saying "we are no where near true oneness" you put false limits on yourself. That is only a thought that seems to have a lot of weight behind it because of history and history itself is only a thought. If you see this totally and clearly for just a moment you will realise it's not this grand, elusive state that has been projected through time.

Sorry for jumping in there. I'm not trying to lecture you but this is very serious. You are always only a thought (which is distance) away from being yourself.

[branjo]

I don't think your getting what I mean by oneness.

Oneness to me is "connectedness". Its like swimming in the ocean and loving it, but you still have to get out and go home, but you can return at any time you want to. To me there is no finality to the concept of oneness its not a one way street. The reason I say its a long way of is because the length of the road to it doesn't matter, the enjoyment is the road itself and the road could be endless and that's still ok with me. There is only 2 direction to any road, forward or backwards.

Stopping and sitting down and refusing to go any further because you believe the road is an illusion is just like giving up, its looking at the length of the road and letting that determine the severity of the journey when the distance is irrelevant, the journey itself is what is important.

To be the "observer" to me doesn't mean there must be two, it is to not jump to any thoughts of predetermined judgment on anything you hear or see, but just to let whatever happens, happen. To witness everything the ego wants and to realize that the ego is what is trying to separate us from everything. To let go of the illusion of control, because we cannot control anything, all we can do is steer ourselves in a direction that is complementary to existence, when we do this we feel centered, we feel connected to more than just our selfish wants. When we give in to the shortcuts in life we do ourselves no favors because we are putting of the inevitable problem that will find us in the exact same manner sooner or later.

Yes thoughts are culminations of the past, like predetermined fears with or without experience, but hopes are expectations of the future, fear can also be projected into the future, and when no importance is placed on the present, things will always be tomorrow or next week or next year. Until we understand the importance of the moment we are in here and now then we will never be progressing through life, we will be regressing or halting it making it stagnant and when this happens we need all manner of useless things to quell this empty feeling we are left with, but all we are doing is again putting off the inevitable.

People (and I include myself) use all manner of excuses why they cannot do this or that because of past events or actions of other people. They hope things will change over time and one day they will feel better about themselves, all they are doing is letting "time" rule their lives.
By waiting for anything to come to you, you waste the present moment you are in. By reliving the past you waste the moment you are in also.

We don't exists anywhere else than in the present, you can never experience the past nor the future there is only the present. Even if you traveled back in time or into the future, you are still living in the present, you take it with you everywhere you go and you can never leave it behind.

There never was a start to life, it has always existed. Life is infinite and there is no beginning nor end to infinity. Until lately Science has not wanted to tackle the concept of infinity, but it exists as sure as anything else.

"In the beginning there was thought" is said by many a spiritual person or book like the bible, but this "beginning" is only the last emergence from singularity. Certain scientists are now not afraid to admit the "big bang" was not "the start" of anything. It was just a point in the cycle of infinity, nothing more nothing less. The "big bang" is the scientific explanation of creation where the spiritual explanation speak of the first "thought".

Things may have came from singularity or from no-thingness but they will not return to it any time soon, this (what I believe) is the true oneness of creation, the mid point between the black hole/white hole of the universal black hole we currently live in.

As far as not being able to drop things that do us no good, I don't see your reasoning there, what you are saying is that "you" cannot drop anything or you will pick up some other form of habit. To me a habit is something that is superfluous to necessity. To give up something unhealthy and dangerous to your well being in favor of something that is healthy is not swapping habits to me, it is adjusting yourself for a more harmonious existence, hardly a pointless exercise.

Now I am not saying I am without my faults, I am no way saying I am done with my journey in life but I can tell you I am done looking for direction to my life. I know exactly where I am going and that was for me and me alone to work out for myself, but there is a feeling of being centered and a certain clarity I feel theses days that had escaped me for so long. I get a sense of connectedness (oneness) and it is very uplifting.

Separation is the illusion, because we have never been separate from anything, oneness is and always has been right here for us to realize, its us who have been looking in the wrong direction thanks to the egotistical mind of mankind.

We as a species weren't always like that, but there is a stage in every cycle of civilization were life seems chaotic and random, and the ego culminates only to be overcome sooner or later if that civilization is to survive its own evolutionary path.

[hellosatellites]

The minute I heard my first love story

I started looking for you, not knowing

how blind that was.


Lovers don't finally meet somewhere.

They're in each other all along.


We are the mirror as well as the face in it.

We are tasting the taste this minute

of eternity. We are pain

and what cures pain, both. We are

the sweet cold water and the jar that pours.


I want to hold you close like a lute,

so we can cry out with loving.


You would rather throw stones at a mirror?

I am your mirror, and here are the stones.


--- Rumi

(from the poem Music Master)

[esse]

I think this poetry thing is really working guys...

Wish someone cute wd come over and whisper them to me :p

Shadows fall when light arrives
They hang on to vibrating light
In form materialized, relative, temporal, illusive
Not inherent substance at all
Truth be told
Light casts no shadow on no wall

If we could see not with our eyes,
Nay, but with our hearts…
The invisible – but we are blinded
So much brightness
Behind it all

Explain then, if you will
The tricks the light plays
Making endless kaleidoscopes,
Mere reflections of the whole
Like snowflakes, fingerprints, fractals

[esse]

the glass blower



at the instant of the forgery of a transparent thing
in the continuum of an ancient wish
the explosive inhalation


light, as delicate as the spectrum on a wing
what like force
spurred to shelters of suncore heat


got blood to the singed heart,
perfectly & efficiently hesitant,
stolen to life in the annealing furnace


I ask you, to what claim
are the tempers of body & breath
more simply attested
than in the transparent goblet,
the seed of water ….


concede then, that it is a link
precedes even
all imaginable links, mirroring
flarings of awareness - -


this is that you may
more than merely ablute & refresh,
salute extravagant deeds,


but as an astuteness in one’s sleep - -
or better still
to the intellect in the traveler
on lips at risk of a kiss


then expressed
to that membrane, third eyelid
between the locus of the
raptor -vigilant darkness
& the pupils that scan mathematics
like music


painstakingly designing the child
who will display this much-fractured world
as a whole of innumerable parts,
like a chalice of constellations, beings, codes



*

[hellosatellites]

The poetry thing :)

Until someone cute come along to whisper in your ear, esse, have a listen to coleman barks reading Rumi, in yet another breathtaking poem about that which can not be named

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0ya-4WuCb0

[sevenworlds]

branjo,

The oneness you are speaking of is an experience. It may be peaceful and bring you bliss here and there but you will always end up being troubled by something sooner or later. That oneness is no different to someone taking drugs and experiencing some amazing trip. They still have to come back down. That's why it becomes an addiction. It feeds the mind and they want more. Meditating and trying to achieve the oneness state you speak of also becomes an addiction in the same way, but more subtle. It is also feeding the mind because any time the mind experiences something it deems pleasant, it wants more of it. It's a time-based thing. You might meditate and feel connected to oneness for an hour or two but what are you doing the rest of the day?

What I am speaking of is outside of time. It is not an experience which can come and go. The meditation is happening always. You might be in a crowded city centre but still it is there. It is not a belief that all is an illusion but a realisation that the search takes you nowhere. That only has to be seen clearly and totally once for it to finish 'you'. When there is no 'you' it is a state of not knowing. It is not some permanent happiness or bliss state. It is the fact that there is no 'you' left to kid itself on it knows what happiness and sadness are. If you don't know what happiness is anymore how can you ever be sad?

About the habits... how do you KNOW for yourself, for an absolute certain fact, what is healthy? Do you know? We pick up so much information from others, most of it goes in without noticing. What your parents told you, what you heard at school, from others, from tv, papers, scientists, doctors, etc.. All these things build an image of what is 'healthy' and you fool yourself into believing you know what healthy is. That goes for everything. How is it some can eat the right foods, exercise, keep themselves fit and die of a heart attack in their 40s while others can smoke, drink, abuse the body and live until their 80? So obviously something else is defining how long we live for, how long before this body wears out.

It's like we operate in this little bubble called Knowledge, which is everything everyone has ever told us. So all our decisions are based on that. Like a pinball flying around a machine, jumping from this habit to that, this opinion to that one, believing it is us making our own decisions when in fact it is the limitations of the table. That machine or table in our case is the knowledge/thought, which is always from the past.

Even all of what you say in that post just sounds like you are repeating statements. You are talking of oneness and other things but you don't know it directly for yourself, it's all bits and pieces that you've picked up somewhere.

[branjo]

If I seem to be repeating statements its because your just not listening to anyone else but your own ego, you seem to get great enjoyment out of mincing words and little riddles. I tried in my last post to still explain my point of view and I had deleted a whole post much like the one you are about to read but I thought, no no I shouldn't be that confrontational, but again your ego wouldn't allow a shred of perspective difference.

The oneness you are speaking of is an experience

Did I "ever" say it wasn't an experience? Do you even read what people write before you come to a decision and commit it to text?, of course it was an experience what else could it be, do you think I as you put it "disappeared", had a little word or two with the divine consciousness of the universe and then popped back to feed the cat?

It is an experience that has done me good from the feeling of being "CENTERED", it doesn't frighten me and it didn't fill me with, how was it your said "Bliss". There is no sense of "bliss" as far as I can see in oneness its not about pleasure like you think its being interpreted, which you obviously just can't comprehend past your own ego.

"It may be peaceful and bring you bliss here and there but you will always end up being troubled by something sooner or later."

Again you are speaking from your own point of view, if you have troubles then deal with them, seeing them as "troubles" is exactly why you can't seem to get past the fact that other people don't look at "situations" and consider them "troubles". Did I ever mention that it was irrevocable and permanent? No, I didn't, so where the hell do you get the part where it was meant to be permanent. So what makes an occasional centering of the consciousness in a state of non thinking bad? to you it may be pointless but to me its not, now tell me why your right about "Me" and I'm not.

It seems to me you have no idea where to look or what to believe in so you think the best option is to choose no path, very brave of you, you speak of things like you know what your talking about and then express in the same sentence on how we can basically know nothing so stop trying. I don't think you should project your inadequacies onto me, they are for you and you alone to deal with, you can never posses my point of view so I think its pretty childish to think you can explain anything directly from my perspective.

Your not one of these people that thinks nothing really exists are you? That silly little line you gave in your post that we are all "thought and when you realize that you will disappear", was quite on the feeble side, so by your own interpretations there is no point to anything, you think therefore you are, and that's it then is it?

About habits, man you just talk yourself into more and more holes don't you, Every post I see you make comes across as some kind of correction to the post before it. Your attempt at intellectual superiority over people isn't so subtle you know, you have a hell of an ego bro, but if that's your trip, more power to ya, but its pretty obvious for all to see.

"How do I know whats healthy for me"?...lmao that's funny, really, well unlike "you" I am actually an expert of "me", I know what makes me feel unhealthy so you better believe I know what makes me healthy, its quite egotistical for you to assume otherwise.

"How is it some can eat the right foods, exercise, keep themselves fit and die of a heart attack in their 40s while others can smoke, drink, abuse the body and live until their 80? So obviously something else is defining how long we live for, how long before this body wears out."

I'm sorry, what? is that supposed to reveal something that the rest of us are not aware of, didn't I already state that I believe we are not our minds and we are not our body and we are somewhere else altogether?

What you said makes even less sense than the rest of your posts, you highlight the exception and ask me why it is the rule, to use your own words, "See the absurdity of it?

That's like saying why can some people cross the road with their eyes closed and not get hit by a car, when other people walk across looking both ways and still get killed.

"It's like we operate in this little bubble called Knowledge, which is everything everyone has ever told us. So all our decisions are based on that. Like a pinball flying around a machine, jumping from this habit to that, this opinion to that one, believing it is us making our own decisions when in fact it is the limitations of the table. That machine or table in our case is the knowledge/thought, which is always from the past.

What you seem to be saying to me is that "YOU" are still thinking in the box. You have your little area plotted out and you are unwilling or afraid to go beyond that boundary, ok cool, its your box.

The whole point of this thread is to explain why the mind isn't doing what it should, why isn't it happy why isn't it free, why it gets the world into "trouble". And you wade in with the most infantile statement I have heard yet, "So you are trying to use thought to end thought. See the absurdity of it?". Are you so wrapped in yourself that you think a statement like that will give the slightest bit of enlightenment to anyone, I mean seriously? I don't know about anyone else but when I read that all I could hear was "Duh!!, really?"

Like I said when I quoted you the first time, no one is trying to "end thoughts" so we all end up like vegetable on a couch, we are talking about having clarity to control what we are thinking in a way that is productive not chasing our tails like your little titbits of adolescent philosophy.

So ok, you think in the past, by your own definitions of "thought" that is, I mean that's what you said, correct?. So all the things you can think are culminations of past experiences, with me so far?

So what is the "present"?

[amercury]

We say we want a better world and just leave it at that, we think that fighting the nwo is worth anything, its not.

Unknowingly, the truth movement is its own worst enemy, we don't need to free the masses, we need to "show" the masses that we are free.

Peace starts within and no where else.

I dig your post branjo :D

[sevenworlds]

branjo,

It's fine by me. Say what you like. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. If you feel you are getting something from your experiences then by all means carry on. You are not listening to me anyway.

You admit your 'oneness' is an experience that comes and goes, that 'you' are still there, right? So, if that is the case, you must be still operating like everybody else on this planet. Good days, bad days, and so on? You might not choose to call them 'troubles' but from what I'm hearing, you seem to still be caught up in the dramas of this world to some degree. Correct me if I'm wrong? I mean, your very reaction here suggests something has touched a nerve.

I am only pointing out that as long as 'you' are still in operation, still the controller, no matter how much meditation, oneness experiences or whatever else you do, the world and people will still be able to get to you.

It seems to me you have no idea where to look or what to believe in so you think the best option is to choose no path, very brave of you, you speak of things like you know what your talking about and then express in the same sentence on how we can basically know nothing so stop trying.

It is not an option. It is not something that is chosen because the only one who can choose anything is 'you'/mind. Life is like electricity. If 'you' touches Life, 'you' gets destroyed. So obviously it doesn't want to touch Life. If accidently, it is clearly seen what that 'you' is for just a fraction of a second, it is all over.

So it is you who labels me as one who believes in nothing, in no path. I don't even believe in that. To say "I don't believe in anything" is itself just another belief. What are you left with when even that goes?

So in truth I know nothing. But even that statement sounds like a belief. This is a 'state' (it's not really a state but I have to use some word) where both "I know" and "I don't know" are not there.

It seems to you like I'm using a lot of words and sound like I know what I'm talking about but it is for the reader's benefit. None of these words mean a thing to me. Yet the only way I can try and point to this 'state' is by using words, because that's all we have. You seem to believe in them and so I have to use the knowledge you take for granted to point out that very knowledge is what is trapping you. It's all really a big joke. You have every right to throw it back in my face as you have done, to not listen, but still I will keep saying it. Whether it's to you or someone else, whether it's on this forum or anywhere... wherever a situation arises where this can be brought forward I am there. If you look at my posts I rarely post anything else. 99% of discussions I don't get involved in here, there are only certain ones and I think one entitled "Destroying the mind" is relative. It might sound odd to you but despite me saying that I'm not trying to help or save anyone cos I know they don't need my help. That's all I'm ever saying - you don't need my help or anyone elses.

Both "nothing really exists" and "everything exists" are redundant for me. It just is. Why do we need to place these theories on top of it? Yet again, you aren't listening to me so you assume I'm saying there is no point to anything. It is that 'you' that I'm talking about that keeps interpreting what I say, getting in the way and because that 'you' cannot understand Life, it always has to assume I'm saying this or that.

"How do I know whats healthy for me"?...lmao that's funny, really, well unlike "you" I am actually an expert of "me", I know what makes me feel unhealthy so you better believe I know what makes me healthy, its quite egotistical for you to assume otherwise.

Do you not realise that your feelings are also thoughts? That's what I'm saying, it's so subtle. We get brainwashed all our life about what is healthy and then we say "I feel healthier when I eat this or do that". You have to understand those feelings are just very subtle thoughts.

The whole point of this thread is to explain why the mind isn't doing what it should, why isn't it happy why isn't it free, why it gets the world into "trouble". And you wade in with the most infantile statement I have heard yet, "So you are trying to use thought to end thought. See the absurdity of it?". Are you so wrapped in yourself that you think a statement like that will give the slightest bit of enlightenment to anyone, I mean seriously? I don't know about anyone else but when I read that all I could hear was "Duh!!, really?"

I am just curious why this seems to have got you so heated. Why are you so defensive? It's ok for you to post on this topic with your views but something I am saying is needling you so much you want me out of the way. It's that very fear that causes all the wars and trouble in this world.

As I've said, I'm not aiming to give anyone anything. How can I give anyone enlightenment? LOL Enlightenment doesn't even exist. I know nobody needs anyone to give them anything, that's all I'm ever pointing out.

It is you who calls it a philosophy. What I say is not a structured thing, it's not a thought-out philosophy to life. It is all those philosophies that have got us in this mess. And that 'you' yet again cannot understand this so it has to distort and convince itself you will be a vegetable on a couch LOL You have no idea the amount of energy that is released when that 'you' comes to an end.

So ok, you think in the past, by your own definitions of "thought" that is, I mean that's what you said, correct?. So all the things you can think are culminations of past experiences, with me so far?

Every word I say is dead because it is from the past. Every idea, thought, feeling, statement is not original to me but I accept I have to use them so I can communicate in this world. I didn't invent the English language, it was programmed into me. I know this and accept this and that's why I don't need to defend whatever comes out of me. You seem to believe they are 'your ideas, your thoughts, your feelings' and that's why you get rattled when someone questions them. That's all 'you' are. All these things programmed into you that you believe yourself to be.

[branjo]

branjo,

It's fine by me. Say what you like. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. If you feel you are getting something from your experiences then by all means carry on. You are not listening to me anyway.

You admit your 'oneness' is an experience that comes and goes, that 'you' are still there, right? So, if that is the case, you must be still operating like everybody else on this planet. Good days, bad days, and so on? You might not choose to call them 'troubles' but from what I'm hearing, you seem to still be caught up in the dramas of this world to some degree. Correct me if I'm wrong? I mean, your very reaction here suggests something has touched a nerve.

I am only pointing out that as long as 'you' are still in operation, still the controller, no matter how much meditation, oneness experiences or whatever else you do, the world and people will still be able to get to you.



It is not an option. It is not something that is chosen because the only one who can choose anything is 'you'/mind. Life is like electricity. If 'you' touches Life, 'you' gets destroyed. So obviously it doesn't want to touch Life. If accidently, it is clearly seen what that 'you' is for just a fraction of a second, it is all over.

So it is you who labels me as one who believes in nothing, in no path. I don't even believe in that. To say "I don't believe in anything" is itself just another belief. What are you left with when even that goes?

So in truth I know nothing. But even that statement sounds like a belief. This is a 'state' (it's not really a state but I have to use some word) where both "I know" and "I don't know" are not there.

It seems to you like I'm using a lot of words and sound like I know what I'm talking about but it is for the reader's benefit. None of these words mean a thing to me. Yet the only way I can try and point to this 'state' is by using words, because that's all we have. You seem to believe in them and so I have to use the knowledge you take for granted to point out that very knowledge is what is trapping you. It's all really a big joke. You have every right to throw it back in my face as you have done, to not listen, but still I will keep saying it. Whether it's to you or someone else, whether it's on this forum or anywhere... wherever a situation arises where this can be brought forward I am there. If you look at my posts I rarely post anything else. 99% of discussions I don't get involved in here, there are only certain ones and I think one entitled "Destroying the mind" is relative. It might sound odd to you but despite me saying that I'm not trying to help or save anyone cos I know they don't need my help. That's all I'm ever saying - you don't need my help or anyone elses.

Both "nothing really exists" and "everything exists" are redundant for me. It just is. Why do we need to place these theories on top of it? Yet again, you aren't listening to me so you assume I'm saying there is no point to anything. It is that 'you' that I'm talking about that keeps interpreting what I say, getting in the way and because that 'you' cannot understand Life, it always has to assume I'm saying this or that.



Do you not realise that your feelings are also thoughts? That's what I'm saying, it's so subtle. We get brainwashed all our life about what is healthy and then we say "I feel healthier when I eat this or do that". You have to understand those feelings are just very subtle thoughts.



I am just curious why this seems to have got you so heated. Why are you so defensive? It's ok for you to post on this topic with your views but something I am saying is needling you so much you want me out of the way. It's that very fear that causes all the wars and trouble in this world.

As I've said, I'm not aiming to give anyone anything. How can I give anyone enlightenment? LOL Enlightenment doesn't even exist. I know nobody needs anyone to give them anything, that's all I'm ever pointing out.

It is you who calls it a philosophy. What I say is not a structured thing, it's not a thought-out philosophy to life. It is all those philosophies that have got us in this mess. And that 'you' yet again cannot understand this so it has to distort and convince itself you will be a vegetable on a couch LOL You have no idea the amount of energy that is released when that 'you' comes to an end.



Every word I say is dead because it is from the past. Every idea, thought, feeling, statement is not original to me but I accept I have to use them so I can communicate in this world. I didn't invent the English language, it was programmed into me. I know this and accept this and that's why I don't need to defend whatever comes out of me. You seem to believe they are 'your ideas, your thoughts, your feelings' and that's why you get rattled when someone questions them. That's all 'you' are. All these things programmed into you that you believe yourself to be.

There you go again trying to mince words so you can get out of the horseshit you keep saying, I have read posts by you from tons of threads and they all sound exactly the same, I just wasn't gonna take your crap in this one, you try to talk in circles and you think that explains absolutely any thing, you just come off as a little know it all who knows basically nothing other than your own view on things and yet you have the sheer nerve to talk down to everyone on this forum , not just on this thread, all them.


It is not an option. It is not something that is chosen because the only one who can choose anything is 'you'/mind. Life is like electricity. If 'you' touches Life, 'you' gets destroyed. So obviously it doesn't want to touch Life. If accidently, it is clearly seen what that 'you' is for just a fraction of a second, it is all over. <-------bullshit, pointless and explains absolutely nothing, another shortcut to thinking.

It seems to you like I'm using a lot of words and sound like I know what I'm talking about but it is for the reader's benefit. None of these words mean a thing to me. Yet the only way I can try and point to this 'state' is by using words, because that's all we have. You seem to believe in them and so I have to use the knowledge you take for granted to point out that very knowledge is what is trapping you.<------ you just cannot help it can you, you try your best to come off smart but you sound like a 15 year old after his first brush with a philosophy book, your choice and arrangement of theses "words that don't mean anything" are pathetic. If you believed that in any way shape or form then Why the hell are you still typing? Why are you still interacting with something you don't believe is happening.

You think im not listening but you refuse to try and make sense of anything, how can I or anyone interpret what your saying when you keep talking in little circles to make yourself seem some how brighter than the rest of us, you are a snob, no wonder your in a thread dealing with ego, you cannot see past your own, you seem to live for ego and to hell with what anyone else thinks right?


Do you not realise that your feelings are also thoughts? That's what I'm saying, it's so subtle. We get brainwashed all our life about what is healthy and then we say "I feel healthier when I eat this or do that". You have to understand those feelings are just very subtle thoughts.

Now when you are correcting someone else for being whatever, and you start a statement with that. You are immediately assuming we are all as thick as 2 short planks, I mean thoughts are feelings, really? Then in that statement you say we are all brainwashed, but I am guessing you don't mean you right? I mean you can see through this brainwashing of thought and language and say and feel what is really going on right?

I am just curious why this seems to have got you so heated. Why are you so defensive? It's ok for you to post on this topic with your views but something I am saying is needling you so much you want me out of the way. It's that very fear that causes all the wars and trouble in this world.

As I've said, I'm not aiming to give anyone anything. How can I give anyone enlightenment? LOL Enlightenment doesn't even exist. I know nobody needs anyone to give them anything, that's all I'm ever pointing out.

It is you who calls it a philosophy. What I say is not a structured thing, it's not a thought-out philosophy to life. It is all those philosophies that have got us in this mess. And that 'you' yet again cannot understand this so it has to distort and convince itself you will be a vegetable on a couch LOL You have no idea the amount of energy that is released when that 'you' comes to an end.

I called your little titbits a philosophy in sarcasm, you bet your ass its not structured, its pointless. You say one thing and then you negate it for sake balance, "we exist" and "we don't exist", does that do it for you? Does that make the world, reality, life, death and existence all clear to you. Don't think for one second that what your saying is confusing to me or I just cant get to grips with it, cause a 15 year old would be smirking at what you are saying.

Every word I say is dead because it is from the past. Every idea, thought, feeling, statement is not original to me but I accept I have to use them so I can communicate in this world. I didn't invent the English language, it was programmed into me. I know this and accept this and that's why I don't need to defend whatever comes out of me. You seem to believe they are 'your ideas, your thoughts, your feelings' and that's why you get rattled when someone questions them. That's all 'you' are. All these things programmed into you that you believe yourself to be.

I mean all I can say about a statement like that is....wow..lol. So you bare no responsibility for what comes out of you huh, There you go, in a nutshell, that's why I am annoyed at you. You say any old crap and expect people to read it and get something out of it, when its clear to the reader you never even place any importance on what you are trying to say, for anyone to make sense out of it. You may use the English alphabet but as far as expressing yourself with the English language, you might as well switch to Chinese.

You still haven't answered my question.

If everything is past, then explain "present"

[orbandsceptre27]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. If you feel you are getting something from your experiences then by all means carry on. You are not listening to me anyway.

You admit your 'oneness' is an experience that comes and goes, that 'you' are still there, right? So, if that is the case, you must be still operating like everybody else on this planet. Good days, bad days, and so on? You might not choose to call them 'troubles' but from what I'm hearing, you seem to still be caught up in the dramas of this world to some degree. Correct me if I'm wrong? I mean, your very reaction here suggests something has touched a nerve.

I am only pointing out that as long as 'you' are still in operation, still the controller, no matter how much meditation, oneness experiences or whatever else you do, the world and people will still be able to get to you.


It is not an option. It is not something that is chosen because the only one who can choose anything is 'you'/mind. Life is like electricity. If 'you' touches Life, 'you' gets destroyed. So obviously it doesn't want to touch Life. If accidently, it is clearly seen what that 'you' is for just a fraction of a second, it is all over.

So it is you who labels me as one who believes in nothing, in no path. I don't even believe in that. To say "I don't believe in anything" is itself just another belief. What are you left with when even that goes?

So in truth I know nothing. But even that statement sounds like a belief. This is a 'state' (it's not really a state but I have to use some word) where both "I know" and "I don't know" are not there.

It seems to you like I'm using a lot of words and sound like I know what I'm talking about but it is for the reader's benefit. None of these words mean a thing to me. Yet the only way I can try and point to this 'state' is by using words, because that's all we have. You seem to believe in them and so I have to use the knowledge you take for granted to point out that very knowledge is what is trapping you. It's all really a big joke. You have every right to throw it back in my face as you have done, to not listen, but still I will keep saying it. Whether it's to you or someone else, whether it's on this forum or anywhere... wherever a situation arises where this can be brought forward I am there. If you look at my posts I rarely post anything else. 99% of discussions I don't get involved in here, there are only certain ones and I think one entitled "Destroying the mind" is relative. It might sound odd to you but despite me saying that I'm not trying to help or save anyone cos I know they don't need my help. That's all I'm ever saying - you don't need my help or anyone elses.

Both "nothing really exists" and "everything exists" are redundant for me. It just is. Why do we need to place these theories on top of it? Yet again, you aren't listening to me so you assume I'm saying there is no point to anything. It is that 'you' that I'm talking about that keeps interpreting what I say, getting in the way and because that 'you' cannot understand Life, it always has to assume I'm saying this or that.



Do you not realise that your feelings are also thoughts? That's what I'm saying, it's so subtle. We get brainwashed all our life about what is healthy and then we say "I feel healthier when I eat this or do that". You have to understand those feelings are just very subtle thoughts.



I am just curious why this seems to have got you so heated. Why are you so defensive? It's ok for you to post on this topic with your views but something I am saying is needling you so much you want me out of the way. It's that very fear that causes all the wars and trouble in this world.

As I've said, I'm not aiming to give anyone anything. How can I give anyone enlightenment? LOL Enlightenment doesn't even exist. I know nobody needs anyone to give them anything, that's all I'm ever pointing out.

It is you who calls it a philosophy. What I say is not a structured thing, it's not a thought-out philosophy to life. It is all those philosophies that have got us in this mess. And that 'you' yet again cannot understand this so it has to distort and convince itself you will be a vegetable on a couch LOL You have no idea the amount of energy that is released when that 'you' comes to an end.

Every word I say is dead because it is from the past. Every idea, thought, feeling, statement is not original to me but I accept I have to use them so I can communicate in this world. I didn't invent the English language, it was programmed into me. I know this and accept this and that's why I don't need to defend whatever comes out of me. You seem to believe they are 'your ideas, your thoughts, your feelings' and that's why you get rattled when someone questions them. That's all 'you' are. All these things programmed into you that you believe yourself to be.

Excellent post Sevenworlds.

[sevenworlds]

If everything is past, then explain "present"

What you call "present" is also the past. Can you honestly tell me anything about the present moment? The moment you say a thing about it, you are already in the past.

The present moment is Life. Life is living. Life cannot be descibed, explained, conceptualised, it can only be lived. Nobody knows ANYTHING about Life. I don't know a thing about it. All this nonsense you read in your spiritual books about the "present moment" and the "now". It's rubbish. It's just some letters or if it's spoken, some noise, that is being placed on something that cannot be written or spoken about. Yet 'you' get hold of this and think you've got it, think you're experiencing oneness and all the rest of it.

You can throw as many insults as you like at me branjo, call me whatever you like, I really don't care. They are all dead words, meaningless. I know that everything I say and everything you say is just shitting out of our mouths. Making a noise for the sake of it. A fart has more meaning in it than all the words written on this forum. They don't touch Life at all. I also know one day you will realise this and burst out laughing at how you made it so complicated for so long. You might even remember this dialogue and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. Of that I am absolutely certain but how much longer do you want to delay?

[branjo]

lol, yeah I thought you would dodge that question.

Everyone knows EVERYTHING about life, how simple and how intricate. The present is the only thing that does exist, everything stems from it, it is all that matters. What you term as "past" is just memory, its not the deciding factor of life and its not worthless either. Everything has a place and everything has purposes, even this forum, even the language that you say is pointless yet you use it, all that spiritual "rubbish" as you so eloquently put it has purpose and has meaning.

The fact that I showed you what its like to be on the receiving end from the result of you not placing any importance on what you write is proof enough that what you write has an effect, that you should use those thoughts to make a coherent statement instead of saying nothing matters and giving nothing to a discussion other than arrogance and basic stubbornness.

You can't talk about life and say it doesn't matter what you do in it, there is always responsibility for everything we say, do and even intend to do, and that includes using language on a page.

Why would you think I make life so complicated, life is infinite. There is no stopping life, that is its purpose. What makes it complicated is the interaction people have with each other, when they place no importance on that interaction and they say and do any old thing and don't care how it effects others, then we have problems, then we don't have "communication".

You had your head in the clouds, you think the words you type are dead, well, maybe they are "for you" but the second someone comes across them they are present for that person, you bare "eternal" responsibility for what you write because you can never take it back. That's why words are the most important thing between people whether spoken or written, because its how we communicate with each other, to insult the meaning of words you insult the communication between every human being as pointless.

You call them insults, but I see them as a few home truths and quite ironic that they come in the form of words to you.

I have been were you are, and I had a rude awakening from it too. To progress through life is to learn about it, I don't have a "need" to learn about life, I "choose" to do it, I enjoy it and I want to know everything I can about it, no matter how simple or complicated it may appear.

I find it truly insulting when someone says there is no point in doing it, when actually there is no point in not doing it.

You will also take something from this dialogue, and that is a better understanding that communication has always been a two way street, not the one way system you have been using it for.

[torus]

I think Billy Preston was singing from his mind when he laid this down...

"nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin', but ya' gotta' have somethin'...if ya' wanna' be with me!!!!";)

[branjo]

Very poignant, Torus.

"freedom is an inside job"
That's an awesome sig :)

[sevenworlds]

You're clinging dearly to your world of words and meaning because without it there would be no 'you'.

The present is the only thing that does exist, everything stems from it, it is all that matters.

You say the present is all that matters and then you go on to defend your world of words and meaning. Where are the conversations you had last week, yesterday or even your last post here? They are gone. So why do you carry them and turn them into something precious?

The fact is 'you' are just a timeline of thoughts. You like to make statements like the one above but they do not operate in your life. When you say to me "I've read all your posts before... " where is your present moment then? Your perception of me is being clouded by your image of something I might have said a month ago. That is why you cannot make sense of it. You are trying to make sense of what I am saying NOW by referencing it to the PAST. You already have a judgment of me from the past before you even read what I am saying now.

You do this to me and others because you do it to yourself. To keep 'yourself' going you have to tell yourself little stories all the time. Remind yourself of your past. That means you cannot see anything fresh now.

Everything has a place and everything has purposes, even this forum, even the language that you say is pointless yet you use it, all that spiritual "rubbish" as you so eloquently put it has purpose and has meaning.

It's purpose is now, which means you will never really know what the purpose of anything is, because as soon as you start giving things purpose they are already gone. So when you are busy giving purpose to what just happened you're missing what is now going on.

You can't talk about life and say it doesn't matter what you do in it, there is always responsibility for everything we say, do and even intend to do, and that includes using language on a page.

You talk about 'life', the 'present' and 'you' as if they are separate things. Where is your oneness then? If all is one, who is taking responsibility for what? Who is this 'you' you claim has to take responsibility for 'life'? If the 'present' is all that exists, all that matters, who is taking responsibility for it? Your heart is beating, you're breathing... does this 'you' you speak of have to remember to take responsibility for that? You'd be in trouble when you went to sleep each night.

This 'you' is a troublemaker. It superimposes itself onto Life and kids itself on it is running the show. It likes to create purpose and meaning to everything so it can carry on deluding itself that it is in control when actually Life is doing it all. That is why I can say with total confidence and certainty that I do not have to take responsibility for anything I say or do. That does not mean I am irresponsible. The words I write only matter, are only 'alive', as they are being written. The very life force that brings them out of me in that instant is all there is. Why would I want to place importance on them after that? If you want to, that's your business.

I would also say, why do you believe communication is so important? Have you ever asked yourself why you are so interested in communicating with others? Most communication is because we want to persuade people onto our side. We are a bunch of walking beliefs and to keep reaffirming that we need others' reassurance. Doesn't matter whether it's sport, politics, music or grand matters regarding the universe... all the time we are trying to get others' approval. I'm not talking about communication for basic needs.

I have been were you are, and I had a rude awakening from it too. To progress through life is to learn about it, I don't have a "need" to learn about life, I "choose" to do it, I enjoy it and I want to know everything I can about it, no matter how simple or complicated it may appear.

I don't think you have. Where have I been? I don't even know. If you'd been you wouldn't be talking about it in past tense that's for sure.

Again you talk about life as if it is something separate from you. What have you found out about life in all your 'learning'? What can you say about it? Even the greatest scientists know nothing about life. They might THINK they do. They jump from one theory to another and call it progress but they are never any nearer because there is no nearness to it. We do the same in our own way.

Enjoy whatever you enjoy. If you like fixing cars, playing music, shopping, reading spiritual books, conspiracy theories, it's all there to be enjoyed but don't believe it is taking you closer to understanding life.

You will also take something from this dialogue, and that is a better understanding that communication has always been a two way street, not the one way system you have been using it for.

Communication is only ever a one way street. You talk your ideas and you listen through your ideas because 'you' yourself are an idea.

[turquoisefire777]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

i would highly suggest Echart Tolle's "A New Earth", along with his origional best seller "The Power Of Now".

those books would shed some important light on the matter that's bothering you.

[branjo]

You're clinging dearly to your world of words and meaning because without it there would be no 'you'.



You say the present is all that matters and then you go on to defend your world of words and meaning. Where are the conversations you had last week, yesterday or even your last post here? They are gone. So why do you carry them and turn them into something precious?

The fact is 'you' are just a timeline of thoughts. You like to make statements like the one above but they do not operate in your life. When you say to me "I've read all your posts before... " where is your present moment then? Your perception of me is being clouded by your image of something I might have said a month ago. That is why you cannot make sense of it. You are trying to make sense of what I am saying NOW by referencing it to the PAST. You already have a judgment of me from the past before you even read what I am saying now.

You do this to me and others because you do it to yourself. To keep 'yourself' going you have to tell yourself little stories all the time. Remind yourself of your past. That means you cannot see anything fresh now.



It's purpose is now, which means you will never really know what the purpose of anything is, because as soon as you start giving things purpose they are already gone. So when you are busy giving purpose to what just happened you're missing what is now going on.



You talk about 'life', the 'present' and 'you' as if they are separate things. Where is your oneness then? If all is one, who is taking responsibility for what? Who is this 'you' you claim has to take responsibility for 'life'? If the 'present' is all that exists, all that matters, who is taking responsibility for it? Your heart is beating, you're breathing... does this 'you' you speak of have to remember to take responsibility for that? You'd be in trouble when you went to sleep each night.

This 'you' is a troublemaker. It superimposes itself onto Life and kids itself on it is running the show. It likes to create purpose and meaning to everything so it can carry on deluding itself that it is in control when actually Life is doing it all. That is why I can say with total confidence and certainty that I do not have to take responsibility for anything I say or do. That does not mean I am irresponsible. The words I write only matter, are only 'alive', as they are being written. The very life force that brings them out of me in that instant is all there is. Why would I want to place importance on them after that? If you want to, that's your business.

I would also say, why do you believe communication is so important? Have you ever asked yourself why you are so interested in communicating with others? Most communication is because we want to persuade people onto our side. We are a bunch of walking beliefs and to keep reaffirming that we need others' reassurance. Doesn't matter whether it's sport, politics, music or grand matters regarding the universe... all the time we are trying to get others' approval. I'm not talking about communication for basic needs.



I don't think you have. Where have I been? I don't even know. If you'd been you wouldn't be talking about it in past tense that's for sure.

Again you talk about life as if it is something separate from you. What have you found out about life in all your 'learning'? What can you say about it? Even the greatest scientists know nothing about life. They might THINK they do. They jump from one theory to another and call it progress but they are never any nearer because there is no nearness to it. We do the same in our own way.

Enjoy whatever you enjoy. If you like fixing cars, playing music, shopping, reading spiritual books, conspiracy theories, it's all there to be enjoyed but don't believe it is taking you closer to understanding life.



Communication is only ever a one way street. You talk your ideas and you listen through your ideas because 'you' yourself are an idea.

Wow, lol that was utterly pathetic, seriously. Do you read things before you hit submit?

"World of words"...:rolleyes:, please, your nothing more than a little hypocrite trying to play grown up. Your annoying little attitude has been bugging me for a while, but I left well alone. Then there you were, all full of piss and opinions and no regard for another point of view other than your own. I'll agree on one thing of what you said, what "you" write doesn't really matter..lol. Quite sad really that you have let your irresponsible snobbish little ego convince you of the futility of knowledge.

I would say have a word with yourself, but we all know what good that would do...lol.

[sevenworlds]

Your annoying little attitude has been bugging me for a while, but I left well alone.

I would be looking closely at what in you is being bugged by me but it's too uncomfortable for you to take a look. Far easier to project it all on me. And again, where is your "present moment is all that exists" philosophy? Obviously not there for you to be bugged by me for so long.

I didn't say knowledge itself was futile. I said it was futile in understanding life. Knowledge has allowed us to create some amazing things... comfortable surroundings and technology. In terms of manipulating matter it serves its purpose. In terms of understanding life and living it is useless.

[dodie]

I would be looking closely at what in you is being bugged by me but it's too uncomfortable for you to take a look. Far easier to project it all on me. And again, where is your "present moment is all that exists" philosophy? Obviously not there for you to be bugged by me for so long.

I didn't say knowledge itself was futile. I said it was futile in understanding life. Knowledge has allowed us to create some amazing things... comfortable surroundings and technology. In terms of manipulating matter it serves its purpose. In terms of understanding life and living it is useless.

Excellent posts sevenworlds.

[hellosatellites]

i find the entire thread awesome, and all the posts so interesting to read. years and years of depth and personal reflection in here. Good stuff :)

But what happened to Mauvienne, who gave birth to this thread?

[arty2000]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

say "think whatever thoughts you like my friend the mind I will just observe and listen"...be aware of the thoughts then let them go whatever they are...listen to your heart...just be. :)


meditation is the art of doing nothing


peace and luv my friends:)

[branjo]

I would be looking closely at what in you is being bugged by me but it's too uncomfortable for you to take a look. Far easier to project it all on me. And again, where is your "present moment is all that exists" philosophy? Obviously not there for you to be bugged by me for so long.

I didn't say knowledge itself was futile. I said it was futile in understanding life. Knowledge has allowed us to create some amazing things... comfortable surroundings and technology. In terms of manipulating matter it serves its purpose. In terms of understanding life and living it is useless.

You were being a little snob, you thought you knew more than the rest of us and its quite clear you don't, you don't start your statements with any kind of "what I think" and I am not just talking about the grammar, you tell people to stop trying to do something they want to do, like get the ego or mind under control and you say "stop, you can't", no no at the moment "you" can't. You can stop trying to do it for yourself, that's your decision but don't tell other people to stop doing it.

Are you going for the little saying "we only are angered in others by what we see in ourselves" in that little post there? Well like I said before I have been there and I was doing and thinking like you and someone too had to take me down a notch in order to see that I only know about me, no one else because we are all in it together, its not for one person to dictate anything and to tell the rest of us not to bother trying because its "futile".

Your little saying World of words, well without that little world of words you would have no technology or knowledge to speak of. Understanding life is anything but futile, you seem to have no will to understand life so you don't even think its worth trying but you won't refuse the benefits that come from other people doing it though will you?, there is no harm in "understanding" anything whether it be life or how an engine works, they are both exactly the same, not knowing how an engine works doesn't prevent you driving the car, the same goes for life. But when the car runs out of fuel it stops and its no longer a means for transport is it? when there is no will to learn about life then life becomes stagnant and can manifest all manner of negativity then it becomes no life at all simply through the lack of the "will" to understand it.

No one is saying that life is completely explainable, the explanations could be infinite but every thought about it is a reason to live it, every time you ponder about life it is an opportunity to learn from it and improve it.

Science (not mainstream science) is making huge strides in explaining things that need to be explained about "life", yet you see that has somehow a waste of time, you do not practice what you preach or else you wouldn't constantly be using said words to try and explain anything, you are as I said a hypocrite and I called you on it. You were not trying to help the OP you were having the opposite effect, you were hindering the thread by attempting to negate the point of it.

You have offered nothing but little parables and mental circles, that stop you from having an attempt at explaining anything because you are afraid to be wrong, I am not the only person who has called you on it, like I said I have been in other threads you tried this on and other people have noticed it too.

I get angry at all snobs trying to seem all superior over other people and yet they couldn't explain a damn thing for themselves, this is what I have had done to me and its not enlightening or enriching to be talked down to and when ever I see it I am gonna make a point to address it. When these snobs are asked a direct question they avoid it and run around it but never deal with it, they dance around the subject like a politician afraid of saying something that can be reflected on at a later date, which seems to be the sole reason for your excuse of not being accountable for what you say in the form of words.

I would have more respect for you if you simply said "this is what I think" but you don't, you stand on the side of righteousness yet you don't or can't explain what you "think" your right about, you simply say its futile to try and understand life, where exactly do you get this mindset from? I guarantee it was from a book or a page on the internet or someone else told you about it, now to reflect on what you said way back "See the absurdity" of your original point, do you realize if everyone thought the way you do the species would have gone extinct a long time ago.

The reason for life "I THINK" really is to understand it and progress it to a point were it is explainable to people who are in a state of unhappiness simply because they do not understand it, or can't see how they can ever begin to understand it because to many other people tell them not to bother trying. The reality we perceive today is in a state of transition brought about "solely" by people thinking "what is life" and "why are we here", yes the subject of philosophy is as important as the subject of medical research, those people who think about life are pointing out the directions that can be traveled if people would only take the blinkers off. The thousand years before it were full of people just saying "live your life don't try and explain it, do this, do that but don't think about it" and nothing ever changed for the better it simply got worse and more mundane because no one is encouraged to improve it, they just accept it as matter of fact, they just sit in their house concerned with smaller and smaller technologies and and don't leave the house because whats left to explore in a world that is mapped to every inch by someone else? the point is people take to many other peoples truths as there own and don't bother doing it for themselves. So what if you don't think life is worth explaining or understanding, the vast majority of this forum love doing it, they feel it enriches their own life to define things for themselves.

What do I see in you that I don't like about myself?, Arrogance. But then I already know that about myself enough to want to change the perception of Mind and Ego by studying its effects which is why I posted in this thread in the first place, to me it seems like you came into this thread to inflate your ego, well sorry, your just not going to get that from me.

[sevenworlds]

No, I'm not going for the "we only get angered in others by what we see in ourselves" chestnut. That's too cliched, 'you' already know too many of these phrases. I am asking what is there to get hurt or to get annoyed the way you are. Have you actually looked at why, what it is, that is reacting to some words on a screen written by someone you don't know bringing out all these emotions? No, you won't look at it because you are afraid. Reaction is always in fear.

I know that 'you' are nothing but an image, a phantom, that you take yourself to be and that 'you' can't be reasoned with when we are speaking about this. It only knows time and logic, cause and effect, all of that, the stuff society is made of. So I am all the time speaking to what is real, bypassing this 'you'. You may not consciously realise it right now but something in you is hearing this and knows the truth of it. It will unfold in it's own time. Might be 10 years, might not be in this lifetime. As I say, it's up to you how long you delay. Life will eventually reveal this to you one way or another.

The benefits of mind, technology and so on, why shouldn't I enjoy them? I don't see anything wrong with them. Mind is great at that sort of thing and if others want to pursue this avenue I will accept. This is the world we live in. I'm not fussed either way. What I'm saying is they have nothing to do with what we're speaking of here. Mind, thought, knowledge, words, whatever you want to call it is all coming from Life, the source. How can it possibly understand? It's like asking a fish to explain the ocean.

You don't want to accept this because to accept it means your search, your game of playing, thinking you're getting somewhere, will come to an end. 'You' are terrified of that because it is the one thing you do not know. When you do come face to face with it, you throw insults, project it as a state of nothingness, meaningless, empty. It doesn't make you a vegetable or some lifeless thing with no point in this world. On the contrary, for the first time, life actually directly becomes rich and flows as it should because this 'you' is no longer obstructing. To realise this you must face your own fear without shirking but it's much easier to cover up that fear by strengthening this 'you' day after day with all your activities, all your words and ideas. Pretending to yourself you are getting closer all the time to understanding Life when in fact, you are pushing Life away.

Scientists are interested in their own career. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle they get stuck in. Like all these things. They get brainwashed at school to pick a career, and if they are intelligent enough by schooling standards, they can go on to uni and become a scientist. They swallow all this information they are fed about the science before them and then they go out into the world using that knowledge to try and make new discoveries. They get well-paid, awards, prizes and recognition for this. The whole thing is about sustaining the 'you' identity.

If you are so sure I'm talking shit why does what I say threaten you so much? You are taking authority of this topic, which wasn't even yours to begin with, deciding what is appropriate and what is helpful to the OP. I am not asking anyone to believe what I write or even suggesting it is helpful. It is for them to decide if it's true. I do not say "this is what I think" because it is not a reasoned, thought out philosophy I am offering. This is not some point of view or argument I'm putting across. This is a discovery that can only be made by you alone. It is the one thing you cannot get from a book or any other source. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. You will either see the truth of it directly or you won't. If you see the truth of it, it will be yours, nothing to do with me.

[ex_anser_ovo]

*pokes head out from under table*

Hai guyz. Hope you both don't latch unto each other forever.
Get a room already. :p

[esse]

LOL! Hey... what happened to the poetry?

[branjo]

No, I'm not going for the "we only get angered in others by what we see in ourselves" chestnut. That's too cliched, 'you' already know too many of these phrases. I am asking what is there to get hurt or to get annoyed the way you are. Have you actually looked at why, what it is, that is reacting to some words on a screen written by someone you don't know bringing out all these emotions? No, you won't look at it because you are afraid. Reaction is always in fear.

I know that 'you' are nothing but an image, a phantom, that you take yourself to be and that 'you' can't be reasoned with when we are speaking about this. It only knows time and logic, cause and effect, all of that, the stuff society is made of. So I am all the time speaking to what is real, bypassing this 'you'. You may not consciously realise it right now but something in you is hearing this and knows the truth of it. It will unfold in it's own time. Might be 10 years, might not be in this lifetime. As I say, it's up to you how long you delay. Life will eventually reveal this to you one way or another.

The benefits of mind, technology and so on, why shouldn't I enjoy them? I don't see anything wrong with them. Mind is great at that sort of thing and if others want to pursue this avenue I will accept. This is the world we live in. I'm not fussed either way. What I'm saying is they have nothing to do with what we're speaking of here. Mind, thought, knowledge, words, whatever you want to call it is all coming from Life, the source. How can it possibly understand? It's like asking a fish to explain the ocean.

You don't want to accept this because to accept it means your search, your game of playing, thinking you're getting somewhere, will come to an end. 'You' are terrified of that because it is the one thing you do not know. When you do come face to face with it, you throw insults, project it as a state of nothingness, meaningless, empty. It doesn't make you a vegetable or some lifeless thing with no point in this world. On the contrary, for the first time, life actually directly becomes rich and flows as it should because this 'you' is no longer obstructing. To realise this you must face your own fear without shirking but it's much easier to cover up that fear by strengthening this 'you' day after day with all your activities, all your words and ideas. Pretending to yourself you are getting closer all the time to understanding Life when in fact, you are pushing Life away.

Scientists are interested in their own career. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle they get stuck in. Like all these things. They get brainwashed at school to pick a career, and if they are intelligent enough by schooling standards, they can go on to uni and become a scientist. They swallow all this information they are fed about the science before them and then they go out into the world using that knowledge to try and make new discoveries. They get well-paid, awards, prizes and recognition for this. The whole thing is about sustaining the 'you' identity.

If you are so sure I'm talking shit why does what I say threaten you so much? You are taking authority of this topic, which wasn't even yours to begin with, deciding what is appropriate and what is helpful to the OP. I am not asking anyone to believe what I write or even suggesting it is helpful. It is for them to decide if it's true. I do not say "this is what I think" because it is not a reasoned, thought out philosophy I am offering. This is not some point of view or argument I'm putting across. This is a discovery that can only be made by you alone. It is the one thing you cannot get from a book or any other source. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing. You will either see the truth of it directly or you won't. If you see the truth of it, it will be yours, nothing to do with me.


The 'you' you speak of is the exact thing I have been saying all along, 'you' is ego, it needs to be quelled in order to see truth. Are you actually assuming that you are the realization of truth any more than every single entity on this planet already knows, that you alone are the bringer of this answer? this is no different to what we are already talking about, I am sorry I cannot help but feel amazed at your 'you', it has another ego all of its own.

You keep saying things like why do you threaten me, why am I so annoyed, why don't I look inside myself for the answer, can you see the egotistical nature of that? you are just inflating the very thing that you "sevenworlds" need to realize is making you sound like a complete snob when you know no more than anyone else here knows.

If your "idea" and quite frankly that's all it is by the way just an idea, is so fundamentally perfect then why play anymore part in the communication process, either believe what you are saying or consider everyone wrong about their own "personal" interpretation of life. Make a forum of your own and see how many people "don't" flock to it.

I think you are under some illusion of me sitting with a pen and paper trying to document life in forms of black and white, I see a huge problem with ego, which is exactly what is reciprocating between you and I. You didn't read what I said when I said in brackets (mainstream science) you just assumed I was talking about Nobel prize scientists or the "I want a PHD to impress the ladies" science, if you are not aware of the scientists that are advocating the presence of consciousness as an actual factor in science which is potentially trying to unify all form of science and spirituality so that there can be a basis for us all to begin to identify the mind as not being the entire "identity" then you are the one missing out, in fact you are years behind due to the stubborn snobbery of your 'you'.

This section of the forum is brimming with new light being shone on boring subjects of science that make learning about it fascinating, calling them all "brainwashed" is a very shallow minded thing for you to do. Would you call James Clerk Maxwell brainwashed? Nicoli Tesla brainwashed? Marko Rodin brainwashed? or Nassim Haramein brainwashed? (threads right on top of this very section.) take a look through them, say its all a pointless exercise and I will go away and bug you no more, and we can both let someone else get a word in here.

So let me get this straight, me being angry at your disregard for my opinions or explanations of my own existence, is me coming face to face with the end of my quest or search for truths that don't need to be sought out because you are right here and right now the bearer of the truth that is terrifying my ego so much it just wants to insult and lash out like a dying animal?, Dude lately you don't make me annoyed in the slightest you make me laugh.

Your entire philosophy in explaining anything to anyone on how things might potentially work, is basically "because it does". If that gets you through the day then that's what gets you through the day I guess, fair enough.

I have no virtually no problem about the fundamentals of what you are saying, I have a problem with the way you are saying it. You say 'you' a lot and how we should remove it because it is the obstruction to the flow of life, and I say we need to stop the "ego" because its out of control and only concerned with me me me and not focusing on the "concept" of oneness, unity or "life", its painfully clear we are talking about the same thing yet I am wrong and you are right, when your 'you' clicks into gear like a spoiled child.

Then you try and make yourself seem like the calm hard done by poster who is only trying to help, while making me out to be the one who is annoyed and slinging insults. To be completely honest, you are a fascinating display of ego unaware of the very thing you pretend to know about, which of course you will contradict me in explaining in a roundabout chase your own arse kind of way,that "I" is not really anything more than a 'you', and a false representation of actual consciousness into the form of an image where interaction is possible. "which we all already know Einstein".

But! and here is the fun part just for you. Your 'you' will try its best to insult from another angle of complexity thinking its hidden in a clever way, when all along my 'you' just won't play the "hide in words" game that your 'you' loves to do, even though your 'you' states time and time again that its words are past and people will just have to deal with them because your 'you' bares no responsibility for them, then I (the 'you' that is "me") just thinks your 'you' is a snob with a fundamental flaw of trying to offload its inadequacies of not being able to define the very thing it "thinks" that it has the right to talk in such a superior manner when the very fact of it is an obvious attempt at making your 'you' feel smarter or more aware than anyone else's 'you'. So why shouldn't my 'you' get annoyed at another 'you' (your 'you') trying to seem better at defining my 'you' as being not the real interpretation of the actual me behind the 'you' but merely an image in a false perception of reality projected onto an even larger perception of a community of images that don't already hold the key to understanding that "we" all need to set aside our 'you' in favour of oneness that we strive for and probably reach every time we die, but since we are not at that stage in the cycle just yet, my 'you' is confused why is it so important for your 'you' to not bother trying to explain anything other than what your 'you' is aware of from the perspective point of view of your own solitary 'you'? Its basically telling everyone else's 'you' that which we already know, but don't yet close the book on it just because we are all (including your 'you) in a process of learning, we leave it open to learn new things or else nothing would ever change on the path to potential oneness or the concept of oneness of which it is clear no one has the monopoly on explaining it, not even your 'you'. Now if your 'you' detects an air of sarcasm in the above statement your 'you' would be quite correct in that assumption.

So in the spirit of coming to a conclusion to a really pointless debate heading to nothing more than a further expression of "ego's or you's" I will say this, You are right from your own perspective. That's as far as I can go, so go ahead and respond to the above post and I will honestly read what you write but won't directly reply to it as its not really doing any good whatsoever in this tit for tat debate, I will keep my "you" in check for sake of civility. After I read what you write I will let bygones be bygones and someone else can comment on the ego's we are both displaying. Its not an attempt to take the higher road by the way, I am just bored as hell arguing about it as I am sure others are just as bored reading it.

[sevenworlds]

*pokes head out from under table*

Hai guyz. Hope you both don't latch unto each other forever.
Get a room already. :p

Yeah, I'm getting rather fond of this :) LOL

But all good things must come to an end...

branjo, all I can say is the 'you' I speak of is not the same as the 'ego' you talk of. You seem to think you can somehow stop the ego. I am asking what entity is stopping it? I am saying 'you' is inventing something called 'ego', convincing itself it is a separate entity, and strengthening itself by claiming it can stop it.

I am saying there is no answer, to give up looking for answers from me or anyone so how you jumped to the conclusion that I am the sole bringer of this non-existent answer is baffling. I couldn't even read the second last paragraph so I don't really know what that was about. It's a merry-go-round which you can't jump off. You get thrown off. That's why I can go on and on. I know these discussions are pointless if the one on the other end believes the purpose is to reach some conclusion where the answer to life will be revealed through letters on a screen. Anyway, so long.

Now for some poetry...

[ex_anser_ovo]

It is just too bad neither side in the disagreement used algebra on it.

Sometimes two very different expressions are really born from within the same thing. And in algebra an equal manipulation of properties is needed on both sides, in order to find how that equality can be expressed.

Then the matter is resolved... and something can be born within it.

I like to learn and dance and play, but now is time to go away.
I must go and skydive with the Cheshire cat!
*puts on parachute made of cheese, and crawls into own ear* :eek:

[ex_anser_ovo]

It is just too bad neither side in the disagreement used algebra on it.

Sometimes two very different expressions are really born from within the same thing. And in algebra an equal manipulation of properties is needed on both sides, in order to find how that equality can be expressed.

Then the matter is resolved... and something can be born within it.

I like to learn and dance and play, but now is time to go away.
I must go and skydive with the Cheshire cat!
*puts on parachute made of cheese, and crawls into own ear* :eek:

Dude, I have no idea what you are smoking, but can I have some. :confused:

[lagenese]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety
*note: the answer i give here may seem occult to some readers. So, don't believe a word of it. It is from personnal experience.

The mind is, to my view, like sort of a radio, capting a certain frequency. In other words, we "think" we're the ones thinking, but we're not. The manipulation of the mind has and still is omnipresent. Let me explain this in further detail. Starting with the concept that we're multidimensional, thoughts originate as a form of light energy sent by the higher mental sphere down to the lower mental aspect we call the mind. But before it reaches its destination, it is colored (manipulated) by entities of the astral plane (dead people). The reason for this is to test us in our emotivity. Also, it's the only way entities of that sphere can feel a sense of vitality (feeling alive).

Earth is a shcool for the souls, and this aspect of the game is necessary in order to keep mankind under the domination of the astral world, until we discover the game being played on our mind (awareness). When the experience of the soul is sufficient, the connection to our "source" (higher mental) is activated. Then, slowly, with the rise of consciousness, we start telepathic communication with our source. With time, the manipulation is less present, until the day we reach total consciousness. When we reach that goal, we graduate from this school, and move on to other levels of evolution.

[krixo]

*note: the answer i give here may seem occult to some readers. So, don't believe a word of it. It is from personnal experience.

The mind is, to my view, like sort of a radio, capting a certain frequency. In other words, we "think" we're the ones thinking, but we're not. The manipulation of the mind has and still is omnipresent. Let me explain this in further detail. Starting with the concept that we're multidimensional, thoughts originate as a form of light energy sent by the higher mental sphere down to the lower mental aspect we call the mind. But before it reaches its destination, it is colored (manipulated) by entities of the astral plane (dead people). The reason for this is to test us in our emotivity. Also, it's the only way entities of that sphere can feel a sense of vitality (feeling alive).

Earth is a shcool for the souls, and this aspect of the game is necessary in order to keep mankind under the domination of the astral world, until we discover the game being played on our mind (awareness). When the experience of the soul is sufficient, the connection to our "source" (higher mental) is activated. Then, slowly, with the rise of consciousness, we start telepathic communication with our source. With time, the manipulation is less present, until the day we reach total consciousness. When we reach that goal, we graduate from this school, and move on to other levels of evolution.

Lagenese from my own experience ive been able to notice that ther mind works more then a receiver for sure, then a server.

I agree with you on ALL except the school of souls thingy, its something more to it..i just feel it.

Just a thought, to be able to get to the top you have to start somewhere and will thus allow you to experience the growth in a completely different way. Since it might be different if you are born on another planet and might get under a different influence and either stay more connected to source or less for most/all of your life and here is a different type of connection occurring.

[hellosatellites]

Wow! This thread just keeps getting better and better. Excellent posts on here. :)

[lagenese]

To continue, i'd like to add that the manipulation of the mind is "the matrix". As long as we are part of the physical dimension, we are dominated in one way or another.

Throughout mankind’s experiences in the physical reality or if you prefer, the 3rd dimension, the manipulation of the mind is very real. The first manipulation we are subjected to is the education given to us by our parents or tutors. Then, by whatever we learn in school. Also, peer pressure is part of this manipulation. When we are of age to work, we are manipulated by a certain system that is called the monetary system. Another important aspect of the manipulation is the memory of the race we live in. That memory includes philosophy, theosophy, religion, and any other system of thoughts that are present. So basically, we are subject to domination on beliefs and customs from our past. In other words, we base our entire life on past events.

Freedom of the mind is the ultimate goal for humans. It's the key to consciousness, and higher levels of evolution. Until we realize, and know for sure, we're still trapped in the life and death cycles we go thru in this experiment of the physical realm. The first thing we need to do is to try and live our life in the present of our conscience. When we can start that process, the rest just follows naturally, not on the decision of our ego, but when our cosmic counterpart knows we are ready.

[finn234]

As many others do I suppose, I have the problem that is the epitome of all problems..that being that mangly little beast we call thought

Every fucking time I throw it away it comes crawling back..in one form or the other..I just can't put an end to its uselessness

what to do to thought..what is the trick...to end it for good

ANSWERS they come in all forms but there useless..only to the extent of their uselessness can I find usefulness in any manifestation

sentence sentence repeat repeat words and phrases have no retreat

but now seriously whats the deal..i need to undo cogitated mind anxiety

you might find this quote from david bohm interesting:

'What I mean by "thought" is the whole thing - thought, felt, the body, the whole society sharing thoughts - it's all one process. It is essential for me not to break that up, because it's all one process; somebody else's thoughts becomes my thoughts, and vice versa. Therefore it would be wrong and misleading to break it up into my thoughts, your thoughts, my feelings, these feelings, those feelings... I would say that thought makes what is often called in modern language a system. A system means a set of connected things or parts. But the way people commonly use the word nowadays it means something all of whose parts are mutually interdependent - not only for their mutual action, but for their meaning and for their existence. A corporation is organized as a system - it has this department, that department, that department. They don't have any meaning separately; they only can function together. And also the body is a system. Society is a system in some sense. And so on. Similarly, thought is a system. That system not only includes thoughts, "felts" and feelings, but it includes the state of the body; it includes the whole of society - as thought is passing back and forth between people in a process by which thought evolved from ancient times. A system is constantly engaged in a process of development, change, evolution and structure changes...although there are certain features of the system which become relatively fixed. We call this the structure.... Thought has been constantly evolving and we can't say when that structure began. But with the growth of civilization it has developed a great deal. It was probably very simple thought before civilization, and now it has become very complex and ramified and has much more incoherence than before. Now, I say that this system has a fault in it - a "systematic fault". It is not a fault here, there or here, but it is a fault that is all throughout the system. Can you picture that? It is everywhere and nowhere. You may say "I see a problem here, so I will bring my thoughts to bear on this problem". But "my" thought is part of the system. It has the same fault as the fault I'm trying to look at, or a similar fault. Thought is constantly creating problems that way and then trying to solve them. But as it tries to solve them it makes it worse because it doesn’t notice that it's creating them, and the more it thinks, the more problems it creates.'

or a more condensed version:

'What is the source of all this trouble? I'm saying that the source is basically in thought. Many people would think that such a statement is crazy, because thought is the one thing we have with which to solve our problems. That's part of our tradition. Yet it looks as if the thing we use to solve our problems with is the source of our problems. It's like going to the doctor and having him make you ill. In fact, in 20% of medical cases we do apparently have that going on. But in the case of thought, it's far over 20%.'

i got it from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm) but wiki is quoting from his book 'thought as a system'

if you are having trouble 'thinking' too much i would suggest meditation or something, whatever you do, dont try 'fighting' your thoughts because itll only make them worse :(

remember - 'infinite love is only truth, everything else is illusion', so learn to love your thoughts, since love is all thats ultimately real ;)

[mane]

^Indeed.

If anything is everything and nothing, what is a thought?

[mauviene]

Found some pretty relevant and helpful info in the posts..

It's become clear to me that meditation and mantra is the key to my deliverance.

Though I'm unsure about the nature of thought.

I agree with mane that changing thoughts into creative principles instead of keeping them neutral or negative certainly helps (cognitive therapy). But I'm also realizing that every thought you make simply tenses your muscles on your head and face..etc (think of bald spots). So I'm starting to question the validity of language in comparison to the natural bodily processes of the primate body.

Another curious thing about thought which coincides with the post made by lagenese is bringing up the possibility that the thought or the thinker is not "you" (very eckhart tolle). Bringing back the platonic "thought daemons"..or astral entities influencing material entities with thought.

Or more scientifically..the possibility that thought is influenced by the field of bacteria that we as material beings are enmeshed in.

[mane]

But I'm also realizing that every thought you make simply tenses your muscles on your head and face..etc (think of bald spots). So I'm starting to question the validity of language in comparison to the natural bodily processes of the primate body.

Does this explain why I'm 18 with a receding hairline? lol.

Speaking of the animal within, Parkour might be considered an "answer" to thought, as it challenges convention or any boarder set by thought, and depends on instinctive reaction to overcome obstacles in getting from point A to point B in the most timely and fluid fashion possible. Hip Hop might be considered an "answer" as well, as it is a means to collective thought and movement. But I'm working around the initial question really, because, is the point to really rid one's self of thought altogether? Or will thought cease when the time is right? Isn't thought the proper tool at this point in existence? Why should we resist that which we caused in the first place? We might simply become open to thought itself, and consciousness will shift into the proper form in accord with time. Maybe, to transcend thought we must first master it-- learning the skills necessary to thrive on the next plane in the evolution of consciousness.

[mauviene]

Does this explain why I'm 18 with a receding hairline? lol.

Speaking of the animal within, Parkour might be considered an "answer" to thought, as it challenges convention or any boarder set by thought, and depends on instinctive reaction to overcome obstacles in getting from point A to point B in the most timely and fluid fashion possible. Hip Hop might be considered an "answer" as well, as it is a means to collective thought and movement. But I'm working around the initial question really, because, is the point to really rid one's self of thought altogether? Or will thought cease when the time is right? Isn't thought the proper tool at this point in existence? Why should we resist that which we caused in the first place? We might simply become open to thought itself, and consciousness will shift into the proper form in accord with time. Maybe, to transcend thought we must first master it-- learning the skills necessary to thrive on the next plane in the evolution of consciousness.

I think the point is to rid the useless thought that torments one constantly bringing it under steady control when needed (though some sects of Buddhism say people who think at all are indeed stupid). But ya hip hop as mantra would probably be a lot easier than the traditional ones (I'll have to try that). I think the big thing about thought is it's created by the social/ego construct in order to justify the Socializtion of the id..which simply is our natural primate reactions without logic, conceptions of good or evil, ect.

Indeed I'm starting to realize that these bodies are nothing but domesticated primates..in correlation with ickes theory..domesticated by the serpent. (biblical satan giving the knowledge of good and evil to the men and women in the garden of eden?) So indeed the whole theory of enlightenment could be a huge fraud and "enlightenment" could simply be ones natural state pre- governmental socialization. But you seem to have a very transcendental view on thought which I couldn't comment on since I haven't read to much transcendental psychology myself. Buddhism really cuts to the chase of the transcendental aspect of thought..but I'm still skeptical of Buddhism since Gautama Buddha was from a ruling Hindu family..

[lagenese]

Found some pretty relevant and helpful info in the posts..



Another curious thing about thought which coincides with the post made by lagenese is bringing up the possibility that the thought or the thinker is not "you" (very eckhart tolle). Bringing back the platonic "thought daemons"..or astral entities influencing material entities with thought.


Hello mauviene, here's a quote from a very good book i'm reading at the moment. The name of the book is "Beyond the mind".
"The mind is an infinite communications network that processes conscious and unconscious thought energy emanating from a variaty of radiating center points. These points lie between the higher and lower dimensions of "being" intelligence evolving in nonphysical states throughout parallel universes. The mind fulfills a creative fonction, wich is to ensure the long term evolutionary development of a permanent fusion or bond between interdependant levels of consciousness. The mind is also a process, albeit unconscious for the greater part of humanity, through wich different intelligent worlds interact with the human brain. It creates a network of vibrating energy or thought wich is identified by the unconscious ego as a personal and subjective form of intelligence known as the intellect. The dynamics of the thought process must be fully comprehended in order to expose the subjective appearance of self-reality. Without such knowledge, the mind remains a mystery and the nature of its consciousness an enigma." BdM

[mauviene]

Hello mauviene, here's a quote from a very good book i'm reading at the moment. The name of the book is "Beyond the mind".

Pretty interesting quote. Seems like I should start looking into transcendental psychology.

[danster82]

You have got to realise that you cannot get rid of thoughts, the key to silence is to notice it amid the noise of thought... you see? That includes the anxiety also so amongst the thoughts and the thoughts of thoughts and the thoughts of not being able to get rid of thoughts and the feelings it causes ALL of it is noise the silence is noticed whilst all of that remains not when it dissapears.

Even the thoughts your having now whilst reading this just let it run, Its not you, let it run.

[mauviene]

you have got to realise that you cannot get rid of thoughts, the key to silence is to notice it amid the noise of thought... You see? That includes the anxiety also so amongst the thoughts and the thoughts of thoughts and the thoughts of not being able to get rid of thoughts and the feelings it causes all of it is noise the silence is noticed whilst all of that remains not when it dissapears.

Even the thoughts your having now whilst reading this just let it run, its not you, let it run.

language is boring

Language is your enemy

I have no conception of conceivable reality

[mane]

language is boring

Language is your enemy

I have no conception of conceivable reality

"Creation"

Fluttering wings unravel language,
MANE is ascending kingdom-
Pain is projection in stringlessness-
Sages sing soliloquy-
Rhyming ages upon infinity
I sail frequency, observing void
through earth's creation,
Allotting mantra to focus
Laser beam coherence,
Sculpting faces in a matrix,
Coding gleaming facets,
Perceiving oscillation
of one's and zero's;
Creation.

[haukipesukone]

language is boring

Language is your enemy

I have no conception of conceivable reality

Hey! Dems fightin' words.
Languages are fascinating.

But ultimately they're a useless toy. But I wouldn't call it an enemy, there is no enemy except thinking there is an enemy.

[mr_kiz]

language is boring

Language is your enemy

I have no conception of conceivable reality

You must have a very boring existance in the hell you are in then pal.

Why not accept that maybe your fucked and maybe your not and enjoy what is around you.

[mauviene]

You must have a very boring existance in the hell you are in then pal.

Why not accept that maybe your fucked and maybe your not and enjoy what is around you.

How does the markings on this computers screen shaped as boring have any connections with my states of being?

[haukipesukone]

How does the markings on this computers screen shaped as boring have any connections with my states of being?

Are you saying language is "markings on this computers screen"? That's more like one way of expressing language.

[mauviene]

Are you saying language is "markings on this computers screen"? That's more like one way of expressing language.

I'm just pointing out that the thing read or thought is never the state felt. So language has a limit in expression.

[solarwindspirit]

Our minds at the moment are out of control, we think we are our minds and we are not. The mind has transformed into the ego and the ego is not us either.

I think you are right on the money mauviene, I have been reading Eckhart Tolle's "The power of Now" and he deals with this very dilemma beautifully. You would not regret reading it.

That's when your will overcomes those boggling little 'thoughts'
You clear it out
then find that one voice which is yours

You can use a form of entropy
to show you whats happening...

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/therm/entrop.html

but in this case it's from disorder to order
meditation finding that clarity and space in mind