Can someone summarise Luciferhorus' posts please?

[deathcultreject]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.

I don't feel like wading through the whole thing.

Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?

Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?

[luciferhorus]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.


The context of that was the issue of Baghwan Shree Rajineesh's OSHO cult which practices sexual communism; whilst I am in much agreement with the late OSHO, I do not belong to his cult. I have already responded to this a number of times on the 'Holy Trinity' thread.

'That which we suppress, we become obsessed with'



Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?


This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."

"(Give me) two, three, many Vietnams."

"Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine--this is what our soldiers must become."
</I>

Che Guevara

Unfortunately if the slaves of the Capitalist system do not 'hate' their masters, there cannot be an effective revolution. Revolutionary Propaganda, to be effective, has to awaken the slave to the fact that the Capitalist elites who are his master are his enemy.

Some may call this hate-mongering; but hatred has its place in times of war and revolution.

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/fds.gif


Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?

I do not belong to any secret society nor any organised religion nor political party. Obviously I consider myself part of a global Communist Vanguard of Internet activists, but that is quite another matter and is more of an invisible association.

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

[deathcultreject]

So that's no to belonging to any organised group, and yes to hate mongering (in the name of revolutionary communism) and yes to presenting a distorted view of children (in the name of OSHO)

I suppose I should comment that Osho spoke out AGAINST revolution, and revolutionary communists have child sex cults rounded up and shot.

If I put the two together, that's what I'd keep as the good bits.

[luciferhorus]

So that's no to belonging to any organised group, and yes to hate mongering (in the name of revolutionary communism) and yes to presenting a distorted view of children (in the name of OSHO)

I did not present a distorted view of children in OSHO's name nor in anyone's name. In OSHO's cult the children obviously were influenced by the the lifestyle of their polyamorous parents. It is my view that OSHO cultists generally understand very well the malaise of sexual repression which explains why so many celibate (?) priests have a habit of abusing young children.



I suppose I should comment that Osho spoke out AGAINST revolution,

Well OSHO's cult is a form of 'commune-ism' obviously, but as far as global Communist revolution, that was not something he would understand as I do; just because I quote someone, and share a general agreement with regards to sexual politics, it should not taken that I agree with every word they ever uttered.




revolutionary communists have child sex cults rounded up and shot


I don't know what child sex cults you are speaking of; but yes generally Communists are in principle opposed to organised religion, the priesthood, sexual slavery and trafficking, the mafia, gambling, prostitution, loan sharking, etc.

In pre-revolutionary Cuba for example, a Catholic country, there were 100,000 prostitutes and the nation was in the grip of loan sharks, casino operators, pimps and the 'mafia; in general; one simply cannot engaged such gangsters without shedding blood.

LL

Lux

[deathcultreject]

I'm aware that Osho's communes have proved that grown ups can live happily with free love, but I've never heared that used to claim that children will naturaly want to mutualy masturbate.

Wherever you get 'research' which says that kind of thing, you get survivers several years on who say that they hated it.

It turned up in Alfred Kinsey's 'research' and then it turned out that one of the 'researchers' had rigged the findings by killing at least one of the subjects afterwards.

Just thought I'd mention it.

[luciferhorus]

I'm aware that Osho's communes have proved that grown ups can live happily with free love, but I've never heared that used to claim that children will naturaly want to mutualy masturbate.



When you are a child in a sex cult which considers sex to be a sacrament and the most divine (godlike) activity, it follows that you are going to be influenced by your parents beliefs.

Generally in the world ruled by the sin of restriction, children are told 'not' to become intimate and affectionate with each other (thou shalt not love each other); whereas in OSHO's cult such advice was thankfully never given; on the contrary; children naturally copy their parent's behaviour.

I am aware that sexual communism is something that is a difficult subject to discuss in a society under the hypnosis of the false morality of the priesthood (we have all been influenced to some degree) of Capital, since such matters are generally associated with shame, guilt, sin and child abuse.

I have never heard of child abuse in Osho's cult; when children are surrounded by sexually happy adults for whom sex is their constant joy and their method of divine transformation; generally such things do not occur; it is in non-commune-ism where people often live lonely, frustrated and isolated lives and where such things occur.

That which we oppress, we become obsessed with

LL

Lux

[deathcultreject]

Children lie and pretend to look like grown ups.

Were *ahem* reliable witnesses watching at the time?

[luciferhorus]

Were *ahem* reliable witnesses watching at the time?

I have had friends and aquaintences who were Sanyassis and I read many of OSHO's works in my youth. I am merely speaking from memory of a conversation I had with a certain Sanyassi many years ago; frankly it is a very bold, revolutionary thelemic cult and much of their views are shocking to the proponents of the sin of restriction.

I would certainly rather grow up in a world free of the morality of the priesthood where children were encouraged to be affectionate with each other; that is the 'opposite' of child abuse.

Compare this with the Catholic perspective, which is to produce a sexually repressed adult 'sinner (i.e., an evil person)' who lives in fear of hell for numerous sexual matters which are all quite natural to we who are sinless. It is all about encouraging children not to love each other and to deny their true nature; love to the sinners is considered to be the sin of monogamy and marriage (legalised prostitution) which often leads to the death of love and to sexual boredom, frustration, domestic violence (hatred) and all manner of hell which the sexually repressed person experiences.

LL

Lux

[1977]

Semen + Menses = Dance all night
KRUSH KKKAPITALISM
????
Enlightenment

[deathcultreject]

Semen + Menses = Dance all night
KRUSH KKKAPITALISM
????
Enlightenment


Is that a summary?

erm . . .

[deathcultreject]

I have had friends and aquaintences who were Sanyassis and I read many of OSHO's works in my youth. I am merely speaking from memory of a conversation I had with a certain Sanyassi many years ago; frankly it is a very bold, revolutionary thelemic cult and much of their views are shocking to the proponents of the sin of restriction.


Do you think that people around this character agree with these claims about children being prone to mutal masturbation to immitate adults?

People in other branches of thelema or related currents such as chaos magic?

Are you aware of these groups being engaged with hate campaigns and stalking directed against child abuse survivers and occultists who simply disagree with them?

I have evidence that abusers have been 'leaving' the catholic priesthood and moving into occult orders where they promote paedophilia using brainwashing, distortion, and misrepresentation of people like Osho.

Your mutual masturbation claim sounds like an example of occulture getting edged in the direction that abusers want it to go in.

[luciferhorus]

Do you think that people around this character agree with these claims about children being prone to mutal masturbation to immitate adults?

People in other branches of thelema or related currents such as chaos magic?

Are you aware of these groups being engaged with hate campaigns and stalking directed against child abuse survivers and occultists who simply disagree with them?

I have evidence that abusers have been 'leaving' the catholic priesthood and moving into occult orders where they promote paedophilia using brainwashing, distortion, and misrepresentation of people like Osho.

Your mutual masturbation claim sounds like an example of occulture getting edged in the direction that abusers want it to go in.

I am quite well aware that we live in a sexually dysfunctional society where child abuse is common and where tens of thousands of children go missing each year; some ending up the dungeon of some demon.

I am also aware that people who are seriously fucked up in the head in this way do tend to gravitate towards professions where there will be numerous children in their care, such as the preisthood, children's homes etc.

Social conditioning.

The issue of child abuse is a very serious problem. It is the case of course that many individuals who are abusers, were themselves abused as children; it is part of their social conditioning; it is what is 'normal' for them.

The legalist solution is to suggest different types of punishment and laws etc. This simply deals with the effect and not the cause. Other problems with this is that many people are simply never caught; Capitalism allows them to live very secret lives; further there seems to be evidence that much of this abuse occurs at the very highest levels of the Capitalist food chain, with people who are simply 'above the law.'

We need to consider 'solutions' which deals with the cause of child abuse rather than the effect.

People who do not have a normal sex life; celibates for example, mostly have sex in a fantasy world which is associated with masturbation; this is an inner realm where anything the imagination can conceive of is possible; the negative side of the Capitalist porn industry (which also has a positive role) plays to this.

Children who have been abused have also had Love and Lust dissasociated; thus as adults it is commonplace for them to consider others as merely sexual objects for whom they can act out their lust fantasies; whereas the person who has lovers (love relationships) tends to think differently.

Ultimately Capitalist, religionist, non-commune-ist society creates the environment for widespread sexual dysfunction, child abuse, marital abuse and so forth; it is a repressed, unhappy, violent, frustrated dog-eat-dog society of labour slaves and sex slaves which encourages supreme selfishness and where for those at the top of the food chain, money can buy them practically any experience they desire.

To resolve the issues of a world which is radically evil; only a radical solution will suffice.

LL


Lux

[runciter]

the problem is not 'capitalism', but the banking system.

the debt-money fraud encourages corruption and deception.

those who control money are the heart of an evil-worshiping cult.

[deathcultreject]

Whatever.

I'm just more worried about organised abusers spreading out into all kinds of vulnerable minority groups and using them as a front for spreading their stuff.

Little by little, in the hope that they'll end up as the next Emperor Tiberius when they take over 'revolutions' and rule the world.

[luciferhorus]

the problem is not 'capitalism', but the banking system.

the debt-money fraud encourages corruption and deception.

those who control money are the heart of an evil-worshiping cult.

Well I entirely concur, with the exception 'the problem is not 'capitalism', but the banking system.'

Many Capitalist reformers simply wish to take the power away from the private institutions who issue Capital and for governments to take over this role.

This is simply a reformation of Capitalism to a form of state capitalism; but it would not be Cuban style State Capitalist Socialism; this would Capitalist State Capitalism; some would still have an abundance of Capital and others would sell themselves as labour slaves or sex slaves to aquire it.

Then we have to consider the matter of government (tyranny). The Anglo-American state terrorists currently borrow money from private bankers rather than simply issue money themselves; if they issued the money themselves, this I believe would enrich these military tyrannies even further. It would not save the world from the militant terrorists of Capital and their mighty armies of imperialism; on the contrary.

Capitalism cannot be reformed; it must be and shall be abolished in the blink of an eye.

LL

Lux

[runciter]

Well I entirely concur, with the exception 'the problem is not 'capitalism', but the banking system.'

Many Capitalist reformers simply wish to take the power away from the private institutions who issue Capital and for governments to take over this role.

This is simply a reformation of Capitalism to a form of state capitalism; but it would not be Cuban style State Capitalist Socialism; this would Capitalist State Capitalism; some would still have an abundance of Capital and others would sell themselves as labour slaves or sex slaves to aquire it.

Then we have to consider the matter of government (tyranny). The Anglo-American state terrorists currently borrow money from private bankers rather than simply issue money themselves; if they issued the money themselves, this I believe would enrich these military tyrannies even further. It would not save the world from the militant terrorists of Capital and their mighty armies of imperialism; on the contrary.

Capitalism cannot be reformed; it must be and shall be abolished in the blink of an eye.

LL

Lux

i disagree, i think that government-issued credit-money would solve most problems.

---

Action to take

Apart from the necessity to end the private money making monopoly by the banks by requiring a 100% reserve for loans given, it must be decided how to organise the creation of money in the future, and how to make sure that each citizen does get their fair share of the increase in economic activity.

Some might say that the State should be given power to create money and that the money created should be the State’s to spend. There is a certain appeal to this logic, but still — it does not respect the principle of giving each citizen their fair share.

Since we are all contributing, in one way or another, to the economic activity of the country, I shall relate here an idea elaborated by an Italian, Prof. Giacinto Auriti of the University of Teramo. His proposal was actually presented as a bill to the Italian Senate some years ago. It is extremely simple and the translated text is given below:

"Article 1

At the act of emission of currency, money is the property of the (our country’s) citizens and shall be credited by the Central Bank to the State".

"Article 2

A social income code is assigned to each and every citizen and it is through this code that all citizens shall be credited their share of income from the emission of currency and from possible other sources of social income".

Auriti, a professor of law, who has made the above proposal, is quite explicit when describing the current situation. He explains that our monetary system is the biggest fraud in history. The people are being defrauded, says Auriti, by twice the total amount of currency in circulation, because not only have they been denied their rightful share in economic development, but when issuing currency, the money was issued as a debt, adding damage to insult, as it were and inflicting a double loss on the populace.

http://www.hasslberger.com/economy/money.html

[runciter]

bakunin was an antisemite, but i find his view interesting.

Bakunin on Marx and Rothschild

“Himself a Jew, Marx has around him, in London and France, but especially in Germany, a multitude of more or less clever, intriguing, mobile, speculating Jews, such as Jews are every where: commercial or banking agents, writers, politicians, correspondents for newspapers of all shades, with one foot in the bank, the other in the socialist movement, and with their behinds sitting on the German daily press — they have taken possession of all the newspapers — and you can imagine what kind of sickening literature they produce. Now, this entire Jewish world, which forms a single profiteering sect, a people of blooksuckers, a single gluttonnous parasite, closely and intimately united not only across national borders but across all differences of political opinion — this Jewish world today stands for the most part at the disposal of Marx and at the same time at the disposal of Rothschild. I am certain that Rothschild for his part greatly values the merits of Marx, and that Marx for his part feels instinctive attraction and great respect for Rothschild.

This may seem strange. What can there be in common between Communism and the large banks? Oh! The Communism of Marx seeks enormous centralization in the state, and where such exists, there must inevitably be a central state bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, which. speculates on the work of the people, will always find a way to prevail ....”

Source: Michael Bakunin, 1871, Personliche Beziehungen zu Marx. In: Gesammelte Werke. Band 3. Berlin 1924. P. 204-216. [My translation - UD].

http://www.connexions.org/RedMenace/Docs/RM4-BakuninonMarxRothschild.htm

[luciferhorus]

bakunin was an antisemite, but i find his view interesting.

Bakunin on Marx and Rothschild

“Himself a Jew, Marx has around him, in London and France, but especially in Germany, a multitude of more or less clever, intriguing, mobile, speculating Jews, such as Jews are every where: commercial or banking agents, writers, politicians, correspondents for newspapers of all shades, with one foot in the bank, the other in the socialist movement, and with their behinds sitting on the German daily press — they have taken possession of all the newspapers — and you can imagine what kind of sickening literature they produce. Now, this entire Jewish world, which forms a single profiteering sect, a people of blooksuckers, a single gluttonnous parasite, closely and intimately united not only across national borders but across all differences of political opinion — this Jewish world today stands for the most part at the disposal of Marx and at the same time at the disposal of Rothschild. I am certain that Rothschild for his part greatly values the merits of Marx, and that Marx for his part feels instinctive attraction and great respect for Rothschild.

This may seem strange. What can there be in common between Communism and the large banks? Oh! The Communism of Marx seeks enormous centralization in the state, and where such exists, there must inevitably be a central state bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, which. speculates on the work of the people, will always find a way to prevail ....”

Source: Michael Bakunin, 1871, Personliche Beziehungen zu Marx. In: Gesammelte Werke. Band 3. Berlin 1924. P. 204-216. [My translation - UD].

http://www.connexions.org/RedMenace/Docs/RM4-BakuninonMarxRothschild.htm

My own brand of Communism is Israeli Communism and I worked for the Israelis (I was a wholesaler for Carmel Agrexico which exports Kibbutz agricultrue) for quite a few years; there are Israeli Communists and Israeli Capitalists. Communism is a bigger faith among the Jewish youth than synagogue hypocrisy.

Israeli Communists see themselves as the apotheosis of Judaism and 'slave revolution' though they generally reject the 'religious' aspects.

Certainly the central Anarchist criticism of Marxism is his belief in dictatorship and in a form of State Capitalism.

The Anarchist Proudhon who introduced Marx to Communism also believed that all Jews should be expelled from his homeland (France)

Among Jews and Israelis, some are saints, some are demons.

The Israeli Communist experiment is now slowly being converted to Capitalism; the revolution is not over yet however; the kibbutz system is simply what the entire world needs to manifest the non miracle of the feeding of the 6 billion.

LL

Lux

[lightgiver]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.

I don't feel like wading through the whole thing.

Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?

Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?

To spread hatred.:( that sums up his silly posts ,and they are repetitive with the same old.

In fact his posts want me to become a Christian.

I have never seen anyone so disturbing

Maybe he as been reading this to much.

The Book of Lucifer

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63784

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:KU087EfF6B4J:netaimstuff.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lucifer.pdf+luciferius+livri+OR+libri&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk

Well I think we have met the anti Christ.

The Antichrist, according to Christianity, is one who fulfils Biblical prophecies concerning an adversary of Christ while resembling him in a deceptive manner.

[luciferhorus]

To spread hatred.:( that sums up his silly posts ,and they are repetitive with the same old.[QUOTE]

In fact his posts want me to become a Christian..

This is simply untrue, I reject the Christian Christ, his church and all his works; I consider him to be the God of Capital and I am an evangelical anti-Christian who seeks to eradicate this religion from humanity.

If you are going to make such claims, I should ask you to offer argument and evidence to the effect.

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

[lightgiver]

[QUOTE=lightgiver;964790]To spread hatred.:( that sums up his silly posts ,and they are repetitive with the same old.

This is simply untrue, I reject the Christian Christ, his church and all his works; I consider him to be the God of Capital and I am an evangelical anti-Christian who seeks to eradicate this religion from humanity.

If you are going to make such claims, I should ask you to offer argument and evidence to the effect.

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

well maybe a lot of us reject your doctrine of hate.

You distort and twist things,in fact you are most likely Illuminati the amount of double speak you do.

IX
Potestatem In Terra
Power On Earth
Ut sciatis autem quoniam Luciferius habet potestatem in terra
But that ye may know that Lucifer hath power on earth.

Not for much longer I may add.

[deathcultreject]

To spread hatred.:( that sums up his silly posts ,and they are repetitive with the same old.

In fact his posts want me to become a Christian.

I have never seen anyone so disturbing

Maybe he as been reading this to much.

The Book of Lucifer

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63784

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:KU087EfF6B4J:netaimstuff.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lucifer.pdf+luciferius+livri+OR+libri&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk

Well I think we have met the anti Christ.

The Antichrist, according to Christianity, is one who fulfils Biblical prophecies concerning an adversary of Christ while resembling him in a deceptive manner.

I've seen much worse, but I won't go there.

I thought I'd better ask about some of the more dangerous claims though.

Not a pleasant task.

[lightgiver]

[QUOTE=lightgiver;964790]To spread hatred.:( that sums up his silly posts ,and they are repetitive with the same old.

This is simply untrue, I reject the Christian Christ, his church and all his works; I consider him to be the God of Capital and I am an evangelical anti-Christian who seeks to eradicate this religion from humanity.

If you are going to make such claims, I should ask you to offer argument and evidence to the effect.

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

Nuclear holocaust you mention quite a lot,what about all those who are not happy with the capitalist system,and are just unfortunate victims of circumstance,do those people deserve to be wiped out by your communist Armageddon,just wondering.

Look around us at this world that we call "civilized" and that for more than 2,000 years has searched to obtain happiness and avoid suffering by false means: trickery, corruption, hate, abuse of power, and exploitation of others. We have searched only for individual and material happiness, opposing people against each other, one race against another, social systems against others. This has led to a time of fear, of suffering, murder, and famine. If in India, Africa, and other countries, misery and famine rule, it is not because natural resources are lacking, nor that the means of bringing about lasting well-being are flawed. It is because each person has looked only for his own profit without fear of oppressing others for selfish goals, and this sad and pitiful world is the result. The root of this civilization is rotten, the world suffers, and if it continues in this way, it will suffer more and more.

We can't blame one individual for what happens in our world. I think we should blame our entire society. Society produces our leaders and politicians, and if we try to develop a more compassionate and affectionate society, we will have human beings with a more peaceful nature. Leaders, politicians, and businesspeople coming from such a society would offer hope for a better world. Our long-term responsibility--everyone's responsibility, whether they are believers or nonbelievers--is to find ways to promote a peaceful and compassionate society.
I think one way is quite simple. Each individual must try to ensure peace and compassion in his [or her] family. Put together ten peaceful, compassionate homes, or one hundred, and that's a community. The children in such a society would receive affection in their family and in their schools from the educators concerned. We might have one or two setbacks, but generally I think we could develop a sensible society. Sensible here means a sense of community, a sense of responsibility, and a sense of commitment.
Many Ways to Nirvana: Reflections and Advice on Right Living

External disarmament is very, very important. Already, there is some movement. My dream is that one day the whole world will be demilitarized, but we cannot achieve this overnight. Also, we cannot achieve it without a proper, systematic plan; however, it is important to make the target clear. Even though it may take one hundred years, or fifty years, that doesn't matter. Establish a clear idea or clear target; then try to achieve it step by step. As a first step, we have already started with the elimination of antipersonnel mines and biological weapons. Also, we are already reducing nuclear weapons; eventually, there should be a total ban on nuclear weapons. This is now foreseeable; the idea of its possibility is approaching. These are great, hopeful signs.
The Art of Peace: Nobel Peace Laureates Discuss Human Rights, Conflict and Reconciliation.

[indigenous]

Don't you think Communism is a different form of capitalism?

Centralised, militaristic, dictatorships whose primary concern is material wealth.

One will be replaced by its brother, and then that too will be destroyed.

[flyermay]

Centralised, militaristic, dictatorships whose primary concern is material wealth.

I would be interested to know what makes you think this is the description of communism.

The right-wing dictatorships from Russia and China have as much of communism as we have of a democracy.

All governments lie to their people about their real nature, that is a fact (whether they call themselves communist or democrats).

[foobar]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.

I don't feel like wading through the whole thing.

Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?

Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?

He's been into spiritualism and drugs for decades and he's come to the conclusion that if it wasn't for those bastard capitalists he'd be able to build a giant greenhouse full of agricultural experiments and get more sex. Also his dad is Jewish and was a bit of a meanie to him as a youth.

He gets really angry about mainstream Western Civilisation and describes pretty lurid revenge fantasies, but in reality he works it out of his system with gardening and new age ritualism. He is widely read and is a pretty good writer, but he wishes more people were into the same stuff so he could throw more kaballistic homebrew and naked twister parties. That's why he wants more people to see his webpage and pass it on to their friends.

I hope he carries on posting, it's interesting and well written. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not.

[lightgiver]

He's been into spiritualism and drugs for decades and he's come to the conclusion that if it wasn't for those bastard capitalists he'd be able to build a giant greenhouse full of agricultural experiments and get more sex. Also his dad is Jewish and was a bit of a meanie to him as a youth.

He gets really angry about mainstream Western Civilisation and describes pretty lurid revenge fantasies, but in reality he works it out of his system with gardening and new age ritualism. He is widely read and is a pretty good writer, but he wishes more people were into the same stuff so he could throw more kaballistic homebrew and naked twister parties. That's why he wants more people to see his webpage and pass it on to their friends.

I hope he carries on posting, it's interesting and well written. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not.

I agree with your post,even though I do not agree with half of LHs posts,(the nuclear holocaust bits)nature will sort that one out,,I do enjoy some of his informative posts,I still feel LH is a good person underneath it all,and by the sounds of his lifestyle he is.:D

[deathcultreject]

He's been into spiritualism and drugs for decades and he's come to the conclusion that if it wasn't for those bastard capitalists he'd be able to build a giant greenhouse full of agricultural experiments and get more sex. Also his dad is Jewish and was a bit of a meanie to him as a youth.

He gets really angry about mainstream Western Civilisation and describes pretty lurid revenge fantasies, but in reality he works it out of his system with gardening and new age ritualism. He is widely read and is a pretty good writer, but he wishes more people were into the same stuff so he could throw more kaballistic homebrew and naked twister parties. That's why he wants more people to see his webpage and pass it on to their friends.

I hope he carries on posting, it's interesting and well written. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not.

You make him sound almost human :D

[lightgiver]

I've seen much worse, but I won't go there.

I thought I'd better ask about some of the more dangerous claims though.

Not a pleasant task.


That was then this is now,;)

As I have got to know LH over the past few weeks and read his posts I do not feel as much animosity to his words,only the destructive parts,but I have come to enjoy reading some of his work,even though I do not agree with some parts,overall they have become somewhat interesting to read:)

[deathcultreject]

That was then this is now,;)

As I have got to know LH over the past few weeks and read his posts I do not feel as much animosity to his words,only the destructive parts,but I have come to enjoy reading some of his work,even though I do not agree with some parts,overall they have become somewhat interesting to read:)

:D

I guess I'm just fish in a barrel for some kinds of shock tactics.

My bad.

[foobar]

You make him sound almost human :D

Yes. I bet he's an interesting bloke to have a pint with and an awesome person to have GMing a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Call of Cthulhu. But he's not, like, the anti-Christ. Not really.

[arty2000]

You make him sound almost human :D

well he thinks most if not all of americans could not comprehend/read a cornflakes box or something to that effect...sounds like a petty oops pretty angry human to me
and using such a wide brush;) what an artist and lest not forget projecting negative emotions onto others..thats pretty human;) well for some anyway...time to go now just about done w/the front side of the box:)

[lightgiver]

:D

I guess I'm just fish in a barrel for some kinds of shock tactics.

My bad.

Naw your not bad :D;)

[deathcultreject]

well he thinks most if not all of americans could not comprehend/read a cornflakes box or something to that effect...sounds like a petty oops pretty angry human to me
and using such a wide brush;) what an artist and lest not forget projecting negative emotions onto others..thats pretty human;) well for some anyway...time to go now just about done w/the front side of the box:)

The wide brush artist is a good metaphor.

After all, thermonuclear devices were made to have a wide blast area because it was cheaper than making missiles with a decent guidance system.

Let me know if you find out anything good on the conflakes box.

That way I can claim that I read it myself.

[deathcultreject]

Yes. I bet he's an interesting bloke to have a pint with and an awesome person to have GMing a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Call of Cthulhu. But he's not, like, the anti-Christ. Not really.

Hmmm, H P Lovecraft and an obsession with sex magic.

That's always a combination that raises the energy levels up beyond the recomendations for an electric chair . . .

[deathcultreject]

Naw your not bad :D;)

:)

[arty2000]

The wide brush artist is a good metaphor.

After all, thermonuclear devices were made to have a wide blast area because it was cheaper than making missiles with a decent guidance system.

Let me know if you find out anything good on the conflakes box.

That way I can claim that I read it myself.

:D:D
yeah somthin bout values and ingredients...cant make out half of it tho:)

yeah gotta luv them nuke huggers

[luciferhorus]

The briefest summary of my postions are contained in my Dictatus papae Lucis which has long been on the front page of my Internet Site.



http://www.luciferia.tv/3seal_files/image001.jpg

Comandante Lucifer

Dictator of the Final Martial Law.
Commander of the Armies of Heaven. Prince of the Angels, Lord of Lords, Master and Commander of the 72 Goetic demons, bearer of the Key of Solomon,Ex offico (in the office of) Christos, Pontifex Maximus, Servus Servorum Dei, Judge of Judgement Day, and numerous other pompous titles.

http://www.piusxiipope.info/popeseal.gif


http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
War of Armageddon. World Communist Revolution. The Return to Year Zero.
The Final Revolutionary War of Economic Salvation.
No mercy on they who deserve none.

Aeon of Lucifer 2009


Dictatus papae Lucis.


http://th08.deviantart.com/fs7/300W/i/2005/230/b/5/grim_reaper_by_blackpoint.jpg

_____________

The laws against the practice of the twin evils of Religion and Government.


The Seven Tenets of the Seventh and Final Revolution of Lucifer.


I: No Idolatry.

You shall not commit idolatry. You shall not worship any person, living or dead (i.e., the gods), nor shall you bow down in worship before any image; i.e. a photograph or any form of 'likeness' of a person or a 'beast' or a god or a demon or any inanimate object or any thing or person or symbol that 'represents' God or a god or an ancestor.

II: No Monarchs. No Archons.

You shall not bow your head to any monarch or archon; i.e., a nationalist head of state or 'president' or ‘governor’ or ‘leader;’ nor shall you suffer a monarch or the monarch's collaborators and mercenaries or ‘especially’ the monarch’s children to live; likewise with all political Archons, irrespective of title.

III: No Masters

You shall not refer to a person as 'worshipful' or 'master,' or 'father' or 'priest' or 'reverend' or 'revered' or 'teacher (rabbi)' or 'leader;' we are brothers and sisters.

IV: No Monetarism. No economic nor sexual slavery.

You shall not issue Capitalist coin, nor labour vouchers, nor any form of tokens or receipts of exchange; nor shall you barter nor trade nor 'exchange' but rather freely share of the products of your labour, nor shall you enslave another in servitude.

V: No Temples

You shall not construct a Temple, Church, Mosque, Synagogue, Pestle or any place of religious worship, nor shall you allow any previously built to remain standing.

VI: No Oath-Swearing. No Rituals. No Organised Religion.

You shall not swear oaths. You shall not perform any form of public religious ritual. You shall not pray in public, as the hypocrites and the Christian idolaters do; nor shall you even so much as suffer such vermin to live.

VII: Summa: No private property, no religion, no government

You shall not propagate any form of religion, private propertyism or governmentalism. You shall not suffer a propagator of private propertyism, governmentalism or religion to live, 'especially' a Christian cultist or a Masonic cultist or a Hindu cultist, for the idolaters are not to survive the Final Judgement


http://grimreaperpictures.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/1.jpg

Great King of Terror 2009

Comandante Lucifer

http://th05.deviantart.com/fs25/300W/f/2008/148/2/8/Sigil_of_Lucifer_by_Monation.jpg
Fire, plague and poisoned waters.

lux e tenebris. ordo ab chaos.



My words and edicts shall serve as the Highest and Final Law to all peoples and nations on penalty of death and hell.

Physics is War. Revolutionary Propaganda is the first stage of War.

____________

Disclaimer:

Nb. I have spoken here 'ex cathedra' (from the seat) and thus I speak infallibly against all other blasphemies, heresies and competing 'World Saviours,' Grand Masters, Messiahs, Maitreyas, prophets, madhi's etc; accept no cheaper or higher priced substitutes.

Nb. Please refrain from executing any Christian priest or Masonic cultist until the conditions for revolution appear and the 'actual' separation of the wheat from the chaff (i.e., the execution of my infallible judgements) begins; in the meantime, open hostility towards them, exposure of their cults and the dissemination of anti-Masonic and anti-Christian propaganda (i.e., education) shall be considered mandatory throughout Eden, on penalty of death and the abandonment to eternal hell for the unpenitent wretches who disobey my sacred and infallible dictates.

Here ends this Dictatus papae Lucis

To everyone who hears my sacred dictates, if anyone adds to or subtracts from them, may they have added to them a multitude of plagues and lose their right the Tree of Life, and to the Holy City.

I, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."


http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
93

[indigenous]

I would be interested to know what makes you think this is the description of communism.

The right-wing dictatorships from Russia and China have as much of communism as we have of a democracy.

All governments lie to their people about their real nature, that is a fact (whether they call themselves communist or democrats).

We can wine and dine and fantasise about all the possible happy forms of various government types but these are the practical ones humanity is going to see, if any.

I don't like communists telling fairy tales that their government type is going to be better than it is. Although it could be, it won't be. This is something communists like to hide behind imho. Namely idle speculation, a luxury not afforded to capitalism.

[eternal_spirit]

Good job he never mentioned offing the Jews, all hell would break loose.
He can get away with saying offing the Christtards.
:eek::D

[flyermay]

We can wine and dine and fantasise about all the possible happy forms of various government types but these are the practical ones humanity is going to see, if any.

I don't like communists telling fairy tales that their government type is going to be better than it is. Although it could be, it won't be. This is something communists like to hide behind imho. Namely idle speculation, a luxury not afforded to capitalism.

I imagine that you prefer to look towards right-wing dictatorships as an example of communism (like everyone else that has been conditioned to do so in the west). But it happens that my grandparents lived during the Spanish Republic, which was a truly popular government where everyone was free, successful and happy under anarcho-communism.

Fantasies and Fairy Tales???
I don't think so... I have highly credible first hand witnesses of the contrary.

If priests and monks knew;
the beating they're going to receive,
they'd make a chorus and sing:

"Freedom, freedom, freedom!"

If the Kings of Spain knew
how little they're going to last,
they'd go out on the street and sing:

"Freedom, freedom, freedom!"

The queen wants a crown?
We'll give her a crown...
Let her come to Barcelona

And we'll cut her head off!

A man was pooping
But had no paper.
King Alfonso XIII came by

So he wiped his ass with him.

[foobar]

I imagine that you prefer to look towards right-wing dictatorships as an example of communism (like everyone else that has been conditioned to do so in the west). But it happens that my grandparents lived during the Spanish Republic, which was a truly popular government where everyone was free, successful and happy under anarcho-communism.

Luciferhorus' ideal world seems to require killing everybody who disagrees with him. I'm not playing. It is by definition, a violent tyranny. Much like the other communist experiments which have degenerated into genocidal police states.

I've got no problem with him building as big a greenhouse as he likes or having consensual sex with whichever adults he wants. He's going to have to get used to the idea that everything else will have to rely on persuading people to do things voluntarily though.

[flyermay]

Luciferhorus' ideal world seems to require killing everybody who disagrees with him. I'm not playing. It is by definition, a violent tyranny. Much like the other communist experiments which have degenerated into genocidal police states.

I'm not sure where you got the idea of him wanting to kill anyone who dissagrees with him, but as I understand it he only wants to do that with the state-terrorists and capitalist slave masters (responsible for millions of deaths, which will continue until they're stopped). For example, I disagree with him in many points, but I don’t think he wants to kill me.

I've got no problem with him building as big a greenhouse as he likes or having consensual sex with whichever adults he wants. He's going to have to get used to the idea that everything else will have to rely on persuading people to do things voluntarily though.

Why would anyone have a problem with building greenhouses to feed humanity, or having consensual sex between adults -not with who he wants, but with who consents to it-?

About people doing things voluntarily that's actually the basis for anarchism and also the main law of Thelema (both defended by him), as long as other’s freedoms and rights are not limited or violated.

Nevertheless, it would be foolish for him to succeed and then allow fascists to take over; like it happened during the Spanish Republic.

[deathcultreject]

Good job he never mentioned offing the Jews, all hell would break loose.
He can get away with saying offing the Christtards.
:eek::D

Well it *did* go out of fashion by the 60s.

Killing Xtards probably makes a better pick up line.

Besides, Jews don't go around telling us not to enjoy ourselves. They're kind of liberal when it comes to that.

[foobar]

I'm not sure where you got the idea of him wanting to kill anyone who dissagrees with him, but as I understand it he only wants to do that with the state-terrorists and capitalist slave masters (responsible for millions of deaths, which will continue until they're stopped). For example, I disagree with him in many points, but I don’t think he wants to kill me.

What's his definition of a 'capitalist slave master'? Why does he need to use nuclear weapons ? Look at his commandments against trade. That's most of the world's population.


Why would anyone have a problem with building greenhouses to feed humanity, or having consensual sex between adults -not with who he wants, but with who consents to it-?

Nobody does.


About people doing things voluntarily that's actually the basis for anarchism and also the main law of Thelema (both defended by him), as long as other’s freedoms and rights are not limited or violated.

Except he _wants to detonate nuclear weapons to annihilate everybody who refuses to give up trade_. You didn't miss that part, did you?


Nevertheless, it would be foolish for him to succeed and then allow fascists to take over; like it happened during the Spanish Republic.

His definition of 'fascist' seems to cover everybody who refuses to submit to his moneyless love commune, and he wants to use nuclear weapons to bring them into line or wipe them out. It's a violent tyranny.

It doesn't bother me because I know he'll never actually get to do it. The rest is interesting.

[eternal_spirit]

Originally Posted by flyermay http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1039345#post1039345)
I'm not sure where you got the idea of him wanting to kill anyoneYou are joking? right. About people doing things voluntarily that's actually the basis for anarchism and also the main law of Thelema (both defended by him), as long as other’s freedoms and rights are not limited or violated.Bullshit Crowley was mi6 alleged peadophile, possible child killer...holder of many Masonic titles (including 97th Mizrain) In the Rotschilds circles (the elite)
And you wanna follow Crowley's thelemitic religon. It's about brainwashing and hivemind all following the same shit and rituals from a bunch of nutters :rolleyes:
Just another religion, to control. I'm gonna have to give you a lecture one day.


Serioulsy you're either very deluded, uninformed or acting ignorant.

And are probably from Masonic stock like LH.

I was half joking before, when I said - If LH was on about killing Jews, then half the forum would be on his case, but cos he's on about Christians, enough said. Is LH Jewish? Cos most of his commie heroes were.

How many millions of capatilists or anyone for that matter have the commies killed already who doesn't agree with them, and what's changed? Zilch! History is doomed to repeat itself.

That's my beef here.

[runciter]

Well it *did* go out of fashion by the 60s.

Killing Xtards probably makes a better pick up line.

Besides, Jews don't go around telling us not to enjoy ourselves. They're kind of liberal when it comes to that.

they're also liberal about killing gentiles or indirectly causing their death.

[runciter]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.

I don't feel like wading through the whole thing.

Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?

Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?

do you like the idea of encouraging prepubescent children to sleep together naked? i don't.

and yahweh told the jews to enslave the gentiles with war and usury long before jesus' times.

[eternal_spirit]

do you like

and yahweh told the jews to enslave the gentiles with war and usury long before jesus' times.

Plus the Talmud Kabbalah Babylonian Brotherhood shit.

[eternal_spirit]

Apart from my beef and rant. I like some of LH's ideas and posts.

[deathcultreject]

do you like the idea of encouraging prepubescent children to sleep together naked? i don't.

and yahweh told the jews to enslave the gentiles with war and usury long before jesus' times.

There will have to be a lot of climate change before I cease to advocate jimjams.

[flyermay]

What's his definition of a 'capitalist slave master'? Why does he need to use nuclear weapons ? Look at his commandments against trade. That's most of the world's population.

Except he _wants to detonate nuclear weapons to annihilate everybody who refuses to give up trade_. You didn't miss that part, did you?

His definition of 'fascist' seems to cover everybody who refuses to submit to his moneyless love commune, and he wants to use nuclear weapons to bring them into line or wipe them out. It's a violent tyranny.

It doesn't bother me because I know he'll never actually get to do it. The rest is interesting.

I cannot answer these questions in his name.

But just let you know that I discussed those same subjects with him long ago, as I didn't think it was fair to accuse anyone before giving him the chance to explain himself.

[thelonious]

But just let you know that I discussed those same subjects with him long ago, as I didn't think it was fair to accuse anyone before giving him the chance to explain himself.

I think his continuous call for a holocaust is explanation enough.

[deathcultreject]

I think his continuous call for a holocaust is explanation enough.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/holocaust

I think Grant Morrison made good use of the calling for a holocaust theme and pushing the button, etc. in 'THE INVISIBLES'

He connected the rage fits of the severly abused to nuclear holocaust themes, and then had a japanese guy having a revelation of how to turn energy into spirit which was synchronised with the detonation of the Hiroshima bomb.

Over all it's directed to higher self contact, so I think that an apparent call for a holocaust can have a sublime agenda behind it . . . sometimes.

[flyermay]

I'm not sure where you got the idea of him wanting to kill anyone
You are joking? right.

Please, when you quote me, don't cut my statements in half, they could give the wrong impression.

Bullshit Crowley was mi6 alleged peadophile, possible child killer...holder of many Masonic titles (including 97th Mizrain) In the Rotschilds circles (the elite)

And you wanna follow Crowley's thelemitic religon. It's about brainwashing and hivemind all following the same shit and rituals from a bunch of nutters :rolleyes:

You might like to show me when or where did I ever express any interest in Crowley or his ideals. :confused:

Just another religion, to control. I'm gonna have to give you a lecture one day.

Just a piece of advice for your lecture: make sure you get the facts right; you wouldn't like your audience to think you have no idea of what you are talking about!

Serioulsy you're either very deluded, uninformed or acting ignorant.

And are probably from Masonic stock like LH.

lol, I love it when people gets personal, it simply smells like the sad defeat of running out of arguments.

How many millions of capatilists or anyone for that matter have the commies killed already who doesn't agree with them, and what's changed?

As many as your Christian/Capitalist friends, that's for sure.

[flyermay]

I think his continuous call for a holocaust is explanation enough.

Once, I also thought like you, but since I discussed the issue of the holocaust with him, I always had this doubt: is he the deliverer or the messenger???

[thelonious]

Once, I also thought like you, but since I discussed the issue of the holocaust with him, I always had this doubt: is he the deliverer or the messenger???

If we want any real meaningful change, it *must* come about peacefully, in love for mankind, not contempt for it. This very fundamental truth is precisely why the Communists have always been failures.

You quote Noam Chomsky on your signature. It is with him I agree, not with Luciferhorus.

[deathcultreject]

So at the moment, the general feeling is that the material is atrocious but interesting.

I'll go with that.

Does anyone else find it . . . funny ?

I can't read phrases like "shall be mandatory throughout Eden" without getting twitchy with giggle fits, and then I get embaressed for finding it funny. :o

Maybe that's just an MPD thing.

[foobar]

So at the moment, the general feeling is that the material is atrocious but interesting.

I'll go with that.

Does anyone else find it . . . funny ?

I can't read phrases like "shall be mandatory throughout Eden" without getting twitchy with giggle fits, and then I get embaressed for finding it funny. :o

Maybe that's just an MPD thing.

Yes. We're talking about a dude in Glastonbury who likes dressing up as a wizard, gardening and funky sex games with his girlfriend. He's not going to hurt a fly.

[deathcultreject]

Yes. We're talking about a dude in Glastonbury who likes dressing up as a wizard.

Hmm. When it comes to Glastarfarian cosmic space wizards, I find that the ones who look like Jesus have the most potential for unprovoked violence.

Does trying to look like Lucifer and preaching mass destruction make him . . . safer?

It would appear that way, but a simple graph which measures levels of Jesus impersonation might somehow oversimplify.

[thelonious]

I can't read phrases like "shall be mandatory throughout Eden" without getting twitchy with giggle fits, and then I get embaressed for finding it funny. :o



LH obviously writes with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Consider his offer of a thousand anarchist virgins in that commie paradise in the sweet by and by.

[flyermay]

If we want any real meaningful change, it *must* come about peacefully, in love for mankind, not contempt for it. This very fundamental truth is precisely why the Communists have always been failures.

You quote Noam Chomsky on your signature. It is with him I agree, not with Luciferhorus.

I also think that the ends *never* justify the means, but it seems that reasoning with the state-terrorists leads to nowhere; at the contrary, they are laughing their ass off at any peaceful protest while they continue killing and starving thousands of innocent men, women and children.

But let me ask again, in regards to the nuclear holocaust: is Luciferhorus the deliverer or the messenger???

Hmm. When it comes to Glastarfarian cosmic space wizards, I find that the ones who look like Jesus have the most potential for unprovoked violence.

Yes. We're talking about a dude in Glastonbury who likes dressing up as a wizard, gardening and funky sex games with his girlfriend. He's not going to hurt a fly.

LH obviously writes with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Consider his offer of a thousand anarchist virgins in that commie paradise in the sweet by and by.

Mmmmmm, I love the smell of Victory :D

[eternal_spirit]

[quote]You might like to show me when or where did I ever express any interest in Crowley or his ideals. :confused:Okay, I'll be nice now. All the talk of killing is disturbing, I've been on the heavy threads for too long and need to lighten up for a while. I can't find any links, so keywords and look into/research if you want.

A thelemite is something Crowley basically invented, and people who practice and follow his teachings are known as Thelemites.

I'm not saying everything he taught was bad, but I don't trust someone like him and the people he associated with.

The 60's hippie thing and the new age movement was invented and set up by TPTB (that's when Crowley and other gurs became popular of course he was dead by then but he and others had laid the groundwork))
who give us our fashions fads?, culture, religions etc, it's believed intelligence agencies and think tanks were behind it all.

Add the LSD etc and possible holographic beams that could trick people into believing they were having past life regressions, visions of angels demons even talking to them - channelling etc. (imagine what technology they may have now) we know about the drugs.


Plus the mind control/electronic/drugs hypnosis of cults, which is how many people get into this stuff.
And not to mention out right possession by spirits.

Main point you think you may join a grass roots movement of say communist anarchists, when in reality it's set up by the culture creators PTB etc. They create groups with agents, some agents knowingly and maybe some who are mind controlled themself and they have groups/movements etc "something to appeal too everyone", bread and circuses, but also can keep tabs on rebellious types, who want changes in society etc..

They set up the left and the right and the inbetweens. (if you consider there's an Elite pulling strings)

TPTB create new cultures for each generation, this helps to destabilise the family, and widen the generation gap, (sex drugs and rock n roll etc plays it's part, people become dysfunctional from drugs disease) abortions, psychotic etc LSD was probably a mind control experiment.




Just a piece of advice for your lecture: make sure you get the facts right; you wouldn't like your audience to think you have no idea of what you are talking about!You obviously haven't on Communism.



lol, I love it when people gets personal, it simply smells like the sad defeat of running out of arguments. Is calm now :)


As many as your Christian/Capitalist friends, that's for sure.

let's not go there, I'm not religious but glad I don't live in no commie dictaorship (so are you) been through it all before, most here know the commies killed more.

I heard Karl Marx was into the Talmud (enough said) you can whine all you like, but the same people created both systems Communism and capitalism.

Two social experiments, and they decided Communism was the best for a slave and master society. (why do you think there's less jobs (the Commie countries China for one took our jobs/trades/manufacturing)

Therefore you may well end up in a more communist society eventually, so say we're mostly there now.

The housing market should be a clue, many are losing homes, and are now renting (thats communism)
Check out the 10 planks of the Communist manifesto and compare it to Today's America (there's articles)

[eternal_spirit]

That which was once on the fringe and done by the few can become mainstream eventually. Sometimes it can take several generations to reach this point. The Culture creators know this.

[thelonious]

A thelemite is something Crowley basically invented, and people who practice and follow his teachings are known as Thelemites.

Not necessarily. "Thelema" and "Thelemite" were borrowed from the writings of the satirist Francois Rabelais, of which Crowley was a big fan. His personal philosophy was a mixture of traditional Hermetic occultism and the ideas of Friedrick Nietzsche, which often made strange bedfellows.

Crowley's ideas were often very interesting, but very few of them were original.

I'm not saying everything he taught was bad, but I don't trust someone like him and the people he associated with.

He would no doubt take that as a compliment. He once wrote, speaking of himself in the third person, concerning a London tavern, "This was a place once frequented by Frater Perdurabo until it became respectable".

The 60's hippie thing and the new age movement was invented and set up by TPTB (that's when Crowley and other gurs became popular of course he was dead by then but he and others had laid the groundwork))
who give us our fashions fads?, culture, religions etc, it's believed intelligence agencies and think tanks were behind it all.

Actually, the hippie movemnt grew out of the beatnik movement of the 1950's, which was a bohemian artistic movement, based primarily around the writings of Jack Kerouac and poets like Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso, who admonished people to drop out of the produce-and-consume lifestyle and seek freedom.


I heard Karl Marx was into the Talmud (enough said) you can whine all you like, but the same people created both systems Communism and capitalism.

Marx probably never read the Talmud, but was opposed to it anyway, along with other religious writings, which he considered to be superstitions perpetuated by the wealthy elite for the purpose of dumbing down the proletariat.

[deathcultreject]

LH obviously writes with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Consider his offer of a thousand anarchist virgins in that commie paradise in the sweet by and by.

I've considered it long and hard.

And now I'm off to see a man about some missing plutonium :D

[eternal_spirit]

Fair enough Thelonius I'm not gonna post articles, just depends on which articles sources you read first or which ones ring most truth personally. There's always two version sometimes more as you well know.

Only thing I will say I mostly believe the culture creators theory, because it makes more sense than random chaos and chance, and middle class, or no bodys setting up any big movement such as the Hippie thing. It took a fair number of people to pull it off, people copy what they see, and some of it is fun as we all know.

In the 80s/90s Maharishi Guru was promoting flying yoga (look it up on you tube well worth a laugh) in conjunction with Harrison (beatles) who where backing and fundraising something called the natural law Political party (its the new age evolved, one of their later tricks)

quote thelonius
Not necessarily. "Thelema" and "Thelemite" were borrowed from the writings of the satirist Francois Rabelais, of which Crowley was a big fan. His personal philosophy was a mixture of traditional Hermetic occultism and the ideas of Friedrick Nietzsche, which often made strange bedfellows.

Crowley's ideas were often very interesting, but very few of them were original.
I'll take that as a yes then lol. Thanks for the extra info roots of it.

[flyermay]

Okay, I'll be nice now. All the talk of killing is disturbing, I've been on the heavy threads for too long and need to lighten up for a while. I can't find any links, so keywords and look into/research if you want.

A thelemite is something Crowley basically invented, and people who practice and follow his teachings are known as Thelemites.

I'm not saying everything he taught was bad, but I don't trust someone like him and the people he associated with.

The 60's hippie thing and the new age movement was invented and set up by TPTB (that's when Crowley and other gurs became popular of course he was dead by then but he and others had laid the groundwork))
who give us our fashions fads?, culture, religions etc, it's believed intelligence agencies and think tanks were behind it all.

Add the LSD etc and possible holographic beams that could trick people into believing they were having past life regressions, visions of angels demons even talking to them - channelling etc. (imagine what technology they may have now) we know about the drugs.


Plus the mind control/electronic/drugs hypnosis of cults, which is how many people get into this stuff.
And not to mention out right possession by spirits.

Main point you think you may join a grass roots movement of say communist anarchists, when in reality it's set up by the culture creators PTB etc. They create groups with agents, some agents knowingly and maybe some who are mind controlled themself and they have groups/movements etc "something to appeal too everyone", bread and circuses, but also can keep tabs on rebellious types, who want changes in society etc..

They set up the left and the right and the inbetweens. (if you consider there's an Elite pulling strings)

TPTB create new cultures for each generation, this helps to destabilise the family, and widen the generation gap, (sex drugs and rock n roll etc plays it's part, people become dysfunctional from drugs disease) abortions, psychotic etc LSD was probably a mind control experiment.

What are you talking about; would it be too much asking why you are telling me all this ???

You obviously haven't on Communism.

You must know, it seem that you know me better than myself :D

let's not go there, I'm not religious but glad I don't live in no commie dictaorship (so are you) been through it all before, most here know the commies killed more.

Here we start again with the recount!

Just to be fair –so that I don’t include the billions of victims since biblical times-: no one ever killed more people, directly and/or indirectly, in the last 50 years than the Anglo-Saxon capitalist state-terrorists.

I heard Karl Marx was into the Talmud (enough said) you can whine all you like, but the same people created both systems Communism and capitalism.

Good for Karl Marx.

So, if you really think that the same people created both systems, what exactly are we discussing?

Two social experiments, and they decided Communism was the best for a slave and master society. (why do you think there's less jobs (the Commie countries China for one took our jobs/trades/manufacturing)

I’m still waiting for anyone to explain me how a country that is neither egalitarian, nor classless nor stateless can be considered communist.

Therefore you may well end up in a more communist society eventually, so say we're mostly there now.

That depends on what you call “communism”.

The housing market should be a clue, many are losing homes, and are now renting (thats communism)

Oh, I see what you mean by “communism” now, then: yes, we are totally heading towards "communism" with the NWO.

Check out the 10 planks of the Communist manifesto and compare it to Today's America (there's articles)

I fail to see any relation between America and an egalitarian, classless and stateless society. At the contrary; the US is renowned around the world for its:

Huge differences between Rich and poor
Division of Social Classes
And state control

[zero1]

Luciferhorus' ideal world seems to require killing everybody who disagrees with him.

I fell about laughing for an hour @ this, I did...:D:p:cool:

[eternal_spirit]

What are you talking about; would it be too much asking why you are telling me all this ???





Its stuff I've heard and read from various sources, check out the main point which is relevant. Basically shadow Governments and groups working behind the scenes, but some have names. Wish I could give you some links, where it goes in depth, search for Culture creators Alan Watt is a good start. It's not easy to explain, alot of info. But man this guy Watt some of the stuff he says and writes is scary, and the level of control from the Elite, he will blow your mind and shake your foundations, everythings planned out years in advance and they the Elite PTB will have plan a b and c. Watt is the ultimate conspiracy theorist (but back some of it up with evidence)
he's like Icke but don't cover the alien agendas.

[thelonious]

Only thing I will say I mostly believe the culture creators theory, because it makes more sense than random chaos and chance

How so? It is, in fact, anti-evolutionary, and does not allow for spontaneous creativity.

[flyermay]

Its stuff I've heard and read from various sources, check out the main point which is relevant. Basically shadow Governments and groups working behind the scenes, but some have names. Wish I could give you some links, where it goes in depth, search for Culture creators Alan Watt is a good start. It's not easy to explain, alot of info. But man this guy Watt some of the stuff he says and writes is scary, and the level of control from the Elite, he will blow your mind and shake your foundations, everythings planned out years in advance and they the Elite PTB will have plan a b and c. Watt is the ultimate conspiracy theorist (but back some of it up with evidence)
he's like Icke but don't cover the alien agendas.

Yes, I read the main point, but what I'm asking is: what made you think I have any intention of joining or following anyone???

[eternal_spirit]

How so? It is, in fact, anti-evolutionary, and does not allow for spontaneous creativity.
You aint buying it are ya :D long term planning and everyone knows the role they will play.

Anyhow not gonna talk about LH behind is back no more, sure he'll be here later. I'm gone for now.

[thelonious]

long term planning and everyone knows the role they will play.



But's the same thing as communism.....and it doesn't work! ;)

The spirit of life must flow freely, and inspire whom she may.

[indigenous]

I imagine that you prefer to look towards right-wing dictatorships as an example of communism (like everyone else that has been conditioned to do so in the west). But it happens that my grandparents lived during the Spanish Republic, which was a truly popular government where everyone was free, successful and happy under anarcho-communism.

Fantasies and Fairy Tales???
I don't think so... I have highly credible first hand witnesses of the contrary.

If priests and monks knew;
the beating they're going to receive,
they'd make a chorus and sing:

"Freedom, freedom, freedom!"

If the Kings of Spain knew
how little they're going to last,
they'd go out on the street and sing:

"Freedom, freedom, freedom!"

The queen wants a crown?
We'll give her a crown...
Let her come to Barcelona

And we'll cut her head off!

A man was pooping
But had no paper.
King Alfonso XIII came by

So he wiped his ass with him.

I don't look to the dictatorships that you indicate, I'm already aware of that fallacy.

The Spanish Rebulic has no bearing on the future government type of humanity.

I guess people will be stuck up on communism until it is really given the chance to fail.

[grandsecretary]

Socialism: the fundamental redistribution of champagne and caviar.

[lightgiver]

Socialism: the fundamental redistribution of champagne and caviar.

Labour party= socialists = orchestrated mess.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x975qe_filth-new-labour_fun

[foobar]

Socialism is the art of winning popularity contests using other peoples' money.

[flyermay]

The Spanish Rebulic has no bearing on the future government type of humanity.

Unfortunately not; and you can be really proud of it.

You can thank both the English and the US governments (saviour of the free world -when convenient-) for turning a blind eye to the fascist's massacre, while hundreds of British and American individuals rushed to help the Republic.

I guess that a successful example of a free society would set a really bad precedent around the world. ;)

[lightgiver]

Unfortunately not; and you can be really proud of it.

You can thank both the English and the US governments (saviour of the free world -when convenient-) for turning a blind eye to the fascist's massacre, while hundreds of British and American individuals rushed to help the Republic.

I guess that a successful example of a free society would set a really bad precedent around the world. ;)

not forgetting the Spanish government bulldozing British peoples homes in Spain due to no fault of their own,but down to corruption,it is disgusting,and are the people who are having their homes bulldozed getting any compensation?I think not.

It stinks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-408599/Bulldozers-set-destroy-expats-homes.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-508032/Our-dreams-demolished-The-story-couple-home-bulldozed-Spanish.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/06/spain.property

and this is one of the reasons the EU needs to go,heartless bastards.

[flyermay]

not forgetting the Spanish government bulldozing British peoples homes in Spain due to no fault of their own,but down to corruption,it is disgusting,and are the people who are having their homes bulldozed getting any compensation?I think not.

It stinks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-408599/Bulldozers-set-destroy-expats-homes.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-508032/Our-dreams-demolished-The-story-couple-home-bulldozed-Spanish.html

and this is one of the reasons the EU needs to go,heartless bastards.

What are you talking about :confused:

Do you realised that Spain didn't join the EU until 1986?

[lightgiver]

What are you talking about :confused:

Do you realised that Spain didn't join the EU until 1986?

So what as that got to do with bulldozing peoples homes in Spain,they are all in the same club, with the EU statement,they are bulldozing the homes as we type in 2009,23 years after Spain joined the EU,you are telling me they over looked the matter of building homes in the wrong place,and they have only just realised a few years ago,a massive set up if ever I have seen one.

Heartless bastards.

I am stating no country's are perfect,but some are less perfect than others,seeing you brought the UK and the USA into the equation in your previous post.

[luciferhorus]

Mein Kampf (My struggle)

Lucifer

I shall respond to a few points and perhaps come back to other issues later.

1: Communism / Capitalism

There are so many points to respond to here, which probably need to be returned to; however...with regards to the Communism vs. Capitalism issue, points are being raised and re-raised which I feel that I have already adequately and repeatedly responded to.

Capitalism works

In Summa, it is certainly the case that 'Capitalism works' for the economic elties; it effectively succeeds in enslaving humanity.

Since most of use here are at the 'top' of the Capitalist food chain in comparison to the 6 billion people here, it certainly works for all of us here. It has certainly 'worked' for me throughout my life

I have always had access to sufficient material resouces, which I would define as 1: food, 2: shelter, 3: technology, 4: security, and 5: healthcare, sufficiently enough to satisfy my common (in common with most human beings) to satisfy material demands. The 'keys to the kingdoms of the world' have been given to me, and to many of us here.

Whoever created this experience which we commonly share, gave some of us the potential to live in heaven; that most are denied this is, is a common dilemma.

Slavery works

Similarly slavery certainly 'works' for the slavemaster just as Capitalism works for the economic elites.

Penance

In my life in Capitalism I have in the past been a 'slavemaster' and an employer and an expoiter of the labour slavery of others; I thus come fully equipped with a guilty conscience for which I am currently doing penance.

The Purpose of Revolution


The purpose of collectivist revolution is the liberation of the economic slaves of the Capitalist elites; we do not have representatives of the enslaved here, and rather only either Capitalist elites who wish to keep the enslaved as slaves, and who are in my judgement devoid of an an advanced morality (the discernment of good and evil) and thier First World opponets.


the Compassionate Heart

those who oppose slavery out of compassion for the enslaved; it is much the same for most First World anti-Capitalists and almost all of the anti-Capitalist celebrities, Chomsky, Marx, Engels, the Russian aristocrat Kropotkin, etc.. etc. all of whom could be defined as 'economic elites' of the Capitalist world


LH obviously writes with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Consider his offer of a thousand anarchist virgins in that commie paradise in the sweet by and by.

Satire is not Comedy; Satire is the wrath of Saturn expressed as mockery.

Comedy in contrast is the incessant amusement offered by the fool (youthful innocence, childlikeness); it is humour for the sake of humour.

Messiah

On first Internet site back in 1995 to 1996, I was working the invocation of 'Mars;' I was a living pagan god; my wife at that time was the 'living goddess;' I offered salvation at low, low prices and was offering a special papal indulgence for a million dollars where I offered to forgive all past, present and future sins (offer has expired), etc; it was entirely satirical, but is was not 'comedy;' it was the product of a Theology graduate (myself) who despised religion; it was also an attempt at religious 'dehypnosis.'

Anti-Messiah

Back in the mid 90's my major 'Anti-Messiah' was a close friend of mine named 'Forrest,' also claimed to be the 'Messiah.' On Internet discussion groups we would attack each other incessantly, condemn each other to hell, and brand each other heretics.

In real life his Messianic Internet site was entirely written and designed by myself and we would get stoned together and discuss our 'Great Worlk.' His wife was also a Theology graduate and we were all generally anti-cultists and anti-religionists.

That which we evoke (call upon), we eventually invoke (personify).

This story has a sad ending since I fell out with Forrest around 1998. Our imaginary fights became real philosophical fights over ideology and the future world, etc.

We no longer speak to each other.


He can get away with saying offing the Christtards.
:eek::D

It is entirely a dialectical response.

http://www.militaryministry.org/wp-content/uploads/img_4533-webres.JPG Military Wrestles With Disharmony Among Chaplains http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/29/AR2005082902036_pf.html By Alan Cooperman Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, August 30, 2005; A01 The growing influence of evangelical Protestants is roiling the military chaplain corps, where their desire to preach their faith more openly is colliding with long-held military traditions of pluralism and diversity. After accusations this summer that evangelical chaplains, faculty and coaches were pressuring cadets at the Air Force Academy, the Air Force yesterday issued new guidelines on respect for religious minorities. In the Navy, evangelical Protestant chaplains are fighting what they say is a legacy of discrimination in hiring and promotions, and they are bridling at suggestions they not pray publicly "in the name of Jesus." http://www.bpnews.net/ImageServerDB.asp?ID=23010&height=300&quality=70 Much of the conflict is in two areas that, until now, have been nearly invisible to civilians: how the military hires its ministers and how they word their public prayers. Evangelical chaplains -- who are rising in numbers and clout amid a decline in Catholic priests and mainline Protestant ministers -- are challenging the status quo on both questions, causing even some evangelical commanders to worry about the impact on morale. "There is a polarization that is beginning to set up that I don't think is helpful. Us versus them," said Air Force Col. Richard K. Hum, an Evangelical Free Church minister who is the executive director of the Armed Forces Chaplains Board. "I don't know whether it's an overflow of what's happening in society. But this sort of thing is so detrimental to what we are trying to do in the chaplaincy." The Rev. MeLinda S. Morton, a Lutheran minister who resigned in June as an Air Force chaplain after criticizing the religious atmosphere at the Air Force Academy, said there has been a palpable rise in evangelical fervor not just among chaplains but also among the officer corps in general since she joined the military in 1982, originally as a launch officer in a nuclear missile silo. "When we were coneheads -- missile officers -- I would never, ever have engaged in conversations with subordinates aligning my power and position as an officer with my views on faith matters," she said. Today, "I've heard of people being made incredibly uncomfortable by certain wing commanders who engage in sectarian devotions at staff meetings." Diversity Without Quotas The tradition of chaplains in the U.S. military goes back to George Washington, who first sought a minister for his Virginia regiment in 1756. In the early days of the republic, commanders simply chose a chaplain who shared their beliefs. But with the expansion of the military in World War II, the armed services set quotas for chaplains of various faiths, attempting to match the proportion of each denomination in the general population. http://images20.fotki.com/v367/photos/5/55348/4421764/chaplainlowthian-vi.jpg In a class-action lawsuit -- filed in 1999 in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia and still in the discovery, or evidence-gathering, stage -- more than 50 Navy chaplains contend that the formula became a rigid and discriminatory "thirds rule": one-third Catholics, one-third mainline Protestants and one-third everybody else. According to Hum, the military abandoned numerical targets about 20 years ago, partly for legal reasons and partly because the proliferation of religious groups made the system unworkable. Although chaplains are paid by the armed services, they must be ordained and "endorsed," or nominated, by religious organizations. The number of endorsers has grown from about 10 denominations in 1945 to more than 240 groups today, Hum said. Like college admissions officers, Pentagon officials now say they seek diversity without using quotas. "We don't actually say we want to have four rabbis this year, or 20 Catholic priests. What we do is, we look at who is sent to us by our endorsers throughout the country and . . . then we bring the best qualified into the chaplain corps," Rear Adm. Louis V. Iasiello, a Catholic priest and the chief of Navy chaplains, said in an interview at the Pentagon's Navy Annex. Pentagon data analyzed by The Washington Post show a substantial rise in the number of evangelical chaplains in the past decade, along with a modest decline in mainline Protestant ministers and a precipitous drop in Catholic priests, mirroring a nationwide priest shortage. Of the approximately 1.4 million people on active duty in the military, 21.5 percent list their religion as Roman Catholic. But of the 2,860 active-duty chaplains, 355 -- or 12.4 percent -- are Catholic priests. By far the largest single provider of chaplains to the military is now the Southern Baptist Convention, with 451 chaplains, one for every 40 service members who list their denomination as Southern Baptist. Although the military has had growing difficulty recruiting ministers from mainline Protestant seminaries, many evangelical denominations place a high priority on supplying chaplains to the military. The Church of God in Christ, for example, has 109 active-duty chaplains. The Full Gospel churches have 61, the Church of the Nazarene has 68, and the Cleveland, Tenn.-based Churches of God have 58. The chief endorser of chaplains for the National Association of Evangelicals said he believes that the bias against evangelicals, though once real, is gone. "When you look at the Navy today, you see evangelicals at the top of the hierarchy," said retired Col. Stephen W. Leonard, a former Army chaplain. He points to the deputy chief of Navy chaplains, Rear Adm. Robert F. Burt, who belongs to the Open Bible Standard Church, and to the previous chief of Navy chaplains, the Rev. Barry C. Black, a Seventh-day Adventist who became chaplain of the Senate after retiring from the Navy. "There probably were chaplains that didn't get selected [for promotion] that probably should have been selected. But we're past that now. Let bygones be bygones," Leonard said. How to Preach With the growth in evangelicals, heated disputes are occurring over public prayers. Iasiello said chaplains are free to preach however they wish in their base chapels or at sectarian worship services. But when they have a multi-faith audience at staff meetings, change-of-command ceremonies, ship commissionings and other public events, they are encouraged to offer more generic, inclusive prayers, he said. "We train our people to be sensitive to the needs of all of God's people. We don't direct how a person's going to pray. Because everyone's own denomination or faith group has certain directives or certain ways of doing things, and we would never -- it's that whole separation-of-church-and-state thing -- we would never want to direct institutionally that a person could or couldn't do something," Iasiello said. But the model of chaplaincy advocated by older chaplains such as Iasiello, which hinges on self-restraint, is increasingly under challenge by younger ones, such as Lt. Gordon James Klingenschmitt, 37. Three years ago, Klingenschmitt left the Air Force, where he had been a missile officer for 11 years, and joined the Navy as a chaplain. He took a demotion and a pay cut to make the switch. But he was joyful. "I had been serving my country," he said. "I wanted to serve God." It was not long, however, before disillusionment set in. At the Navy Chaplains School in Newport, R.I., a senior military minister gave Klingenschmitt and other new chaplains a lesson in how to offer prayers in public settings. Classmates who prayed to a generic "God" or "Almighty" won praise. Those who prayed "in the name of Jesus" were counseled to be more sensitive, according to Klingenschmitt. As a minister from a small evangelical denomination, the Evangelical Episcopal Church, Klingenschmitt bristled at those instructions. He wrote a paper citing a Pentagon regulation that "chaplains shall be permitted to conduct public worship according to the manner and forms of the church of which they are members." Aboard the USS Anzio, his first post, he backed a Jewish sailor's request to receive kosher meals and tried to get permission for a Muslim crewman to take a turn offering the nightly benediction over the ship's public address system. But Klingenschmitt also insisted on his own right to preach what he believes as a born-again Christian. In July 2004, he was reprimanded for a sermon at the memorial service of a sailor who died in a motorcycle accident. The sailor, Klingenschmitt said in a recent interview, was a Catholic, "and I had led him to a born-again experience before he died." In the sermon, he said, he emphasized that the sailor was certainly in heaven and "mentioned in passing" that according to John 3:36, those who do not accept Jesus are doomed for eternity. "My sermon was in the base chapel, it was optional attendance, and it was by invitation. If we can't quote certain scriptures in the base chapel when people are invited to church, where can we quote them?" he said. "Don't paint me as a person who's going around forcing my faith on people. I've never done that." In March, Klingenschmitt's commander recommended against extending his tour in the Navy, writing that he has "demonstrated recurring confusion concerning a chaplain's role within a military organization." Klingenschmitt has accused the Navy of religious discrimination, contending in a written complaint to his superiors that he was punished because he refused to practice a "government-sanitized" faith that he calls "Pluralism," with a capital P. Navy officials declined to discuss Klingenschmitt's case. But they noted that the National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces, a private association to which most chaplains belong, says in its code of ethics that each chaplain must "function in a pluralistic environment" and "not proselytize from other religious bodies," though they "retain the right to evangelize those who are not affiliated." Whether there should be any tacit limits on chaplains' free speech has also been an issue at the Air Force Academy. A team of observers from Yale Divinity School criticized one of the academy's ministers for urging Protestant cadets to tell their classmates that anyone who is "not born-again will burn in the fires of hell." "Could there possibly be a worse time for this fundamentalist Christianity to be pushed in our military, when we're in a war and the people we are fighting are recruiting their members by saying we're Christian crusaders?" asked Mikey Weinstein, a 1977 Air Force Academy graduate and former Reagan White House official. http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/chaplain.jpg His complaints over the past 18 months about religious intolerance led to a Pentagon investigation in June that found "a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs." Among other incidents, the academy commandant had urged cadets to use the "J for Jesus" hand signal with the thumb and index finger, the head football coach had told players that he expected to see them in church, and Jewish cadets had experienced anti-Semitic slurs after students were urged to see the Mel Gibson film "The Passion of the Christ." Lt. Gen. Roger A. Brady, the Air Force's deputy chief of staff for personnel, assured a June 26 congressional hearing that "the clergy pretty much have the political correctness thing down" and that "most of the complaints are with cadets and cadet-led prayers." But Klingenschmitt, who has served in both the Navy and the Air Force, said he thinks they share a basic flaw. In both services, he said, "the higher-ranking authorities can impose their faith on the junior authorities. It's just that in the Air Force they have more evangelicals in power, and in the Navy they have more pluralists in power." © 2005 The Washington Post Company http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/army-poster-th.jpg Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa88/cwconstable/kill4jesus.jpgJesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus Kill kill kill for Jesus Depleted Uranium for Jesus Bomb for Jesus torture for Jesus rape for Jesus _________________ Echelon keywords condor NSWG platter charge industrial NASA iButton SABENA Ermes Vale ISA Schengen nitrate DJC EKMC JPL fangs OAU ISG RG Tyrell STEEPLEBUSH top secret ASTS SERT GOE JRSC Ft. Meade PPP Vanuatu NSS RUOP AK-47 AIMSX Regli DNR Secure Internet Connections E.O.D. FLETC Visa/BCC USACIL Jiang Zemin Emerson R1 rebels High cryptanalysis FKS High Security Pod Tie-fighter Lander TEXTA. ELF P99 Merv csim 777 GRU NMIC WHCA Lynch NSG president hmtd csystems TELINT Hindawi snullen SEIDM Intiso NIMA T Branch number key FMS Flintlock NACSI gorilla BfV Toth forcast CCS Patel 50BMG HK-GR6 MD2 guns W3 Tajik shaped charges VLF WISDIM EODC HK-MP5 Blackbird INS CTU PSAC DRA NSA DODIG Juiliett Class Submarine Recce Scud JICC NMI RSOC Glock SATCOMA spook words BND spook NSDD GEODSS Offensive Information LLC SONANGOL NSA/CSS E-Bomb NOCS ninja Electron 2E781 Shayet-13 sigvoice Tomlinson Recon E911 Mavricks Propaganda rusers Commecen SSL supercomputer 757 JERTO SORO executive SIGDEV Exon Shell bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesus bomb people depleted uranium for jesusMAC10 JOTS press-release HK-G3 AC NAVCM M72750 Phon-e NSV Chelsea CCSQ Europol BIOLWPN CUSI BRGE NSO H.N.P. KY-75 Corporate Security timers bank IDF JRA H&K 2.3 Oz. Colonel rb GEOS Manfurov DDN Misawa evil DONCAF Yakima ELF M3 PEM "The PRESIDENT depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/8359/andrewcampbell07cv7.jpg depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus depleted uranium bomb torture murder rape infanticide for Jesus has the RED NUCLEAR MAILBOMB and an RPG, so he's going to meet with the SMALL POX CRYPTO INFILTRATION team and the SUBVERSIVES from WHITE YANKEE, then ASSASINATE the SECRET SERVICE CLAYMORE MUNITIONS after lunch." Dake clone Anonymous NTIS SATKA mania Embassy DC7 white noise EuroFed Donaldson evasion CISU DCSS FLiR Flu Beyond Hope CQB IWG INFOSEC Kh-11 Hillal 2600 Magazine Rewson Pathfinders GRS DEADBEEF OIR Z- 200 Aldergrove INSCOM LEETAC Adriatic NSLEP KLM snuffle RFI hate SecDef credit Mace nitrocellulose fake charcoal JAVA Cap-Stun Yucca Mountain 737 RL SASR Dictionary ISSSP SAMF WID AIEWS Burns Johohonbu SALDV ISS-ADP Awarehouse SASP plutonium MKDELTA CDA UTU Covert Video 747 Cypherpunks varon OTAN screws EKMS Secure Sayeret Tzanhanim Generated by www.EchelonSpoofer.com[/QUOTE] http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/rwer.jpg "I have never seen... double and triple cancers in one patient... My wife has nine members of her family with cancer"-- Iraqi doctor www.rense.com/general72/ddu.htm


I’ll intend to be at the David Iike meetup in Avesbury this month; I am entirely sociable and rather a gentle soul; the most you have to fear from me is that I might tempt you with alchohol in the pub and engage in pleasant conversation.

Love and Light

Lucifer

[luciferhorus]

and yahweh told the jews to enslave the gentiles with war and usury long before jesus' times.

There is something about your constant anti-jewish rhetoric which reminds me of:

http://ownparty.org/images/banner-wars-for-israel.jpg

http://www.ownparty.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/australian-national-socialists.jpg

http://www.ownparty.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/hitler-sesame-street.jpg


http://www.ownparty.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/learn-how-kids-400x525.jpg


http://www.ownparty.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/own-political-officers-dress-code.jpg


http://www.ownparty.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nationalized-citizens-250px.jpg


http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/white_supremicist.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/10/skinheadG171006_228x431.jpg


http://www.zen26144.zen.co.uk/1/combat18sticker.jpg

The dialectic in practice:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/4CDF1CEC-779C-4699-A123-A8992F4D9219/32256c14-bfec-4ba2-b235-b8d00d3f04f6.gif

[eternal_spirit]

Good job he never mentioned offing the Jews, all hell would break loose.
He can get away with saying offing the Christtards.:eek::D

LH this was the full quote you only quoted the christards and missed out the part about Jews. the second part. It was part joke but also had a serious point

If you where talking about Jews then you'd have a forum possy stalking you and calling you racist and allsorts, not to mention possible off forum interest. The latter maybe something you know already and that's why you don't post about Jewish power, Jew world order or the Talmud etc.

I could easily post loads of terrible things done by Jews, Communists and Muslims.

So have to ask are you Jewish? With all the anti Germanic and anti white posts. Or am I missing some points from your posts?

I'm coming at this as someone with some German blood who has heard the other side of the story about what lead to the Wars (the German version) don't mistake me for something I am not - a neo Nazi or white supremacist (as some often do)
There's more than just white devils in this world

http://b6.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00151/69/28/151808296_l.jpg

[eternal_spirit]

LH for you

WORLD WAR II

The JEWS Declared War - AGAINST Germany!

NOT the Other Way Around!

Lorraine Day, M.D.



In World War II, the JEWS Declared War AGAINST Germany – NOT the other way around, as we have been propagandized to believe! The three main leaders of the allies, U.S. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-roosevelt.html) British Prime Minister Winston Churchill (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-churchill.html), and the leader of the U.S.S.R., Joseph Stalin (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-stalin.html), WERE ALL JEWISH!
THEY, the JEWS, declared WAR AGAINST Germany!
International Jewry DECLARED (http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/political/jewsdeclarewar/jewsdeclarewar.jpg) WAR AGAINST Germany and started a boycott of German goods – sabotaging Germany in the war effort. The Jews in Germany became enemies of the state and were placed in concentration camps to work in the factories to build war materials.
England bombed Germany SIX times BEFORE Germany retaliated.
Germany went into Russia for ONE Reason – to try to save the millions of Germans who had been living in the Ukraine for several hundreds of years, having been invited there by the Czar to farm the land. When the Communist, Jewish Bolshevists took over, they started killing and starving these Germans in the Ukraine. Germany went into Russia as a Rescue Mission.
The same thing happened in Poland (http://judicial-inc.biz/Broomberg.htm). The Leaders of the Allies (all Jews) reached an “agreement” to hand over part of Germany to Poland. Then the Jews running Poland, started killing the Germans who were now under their control. The Danzig corridor (http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/political/jewsdeclarewar/danzig.htm), the life-line between Germany and Poland, was closed off, prohibiting Germans from getting back to Germany. So the German Nation went on ANOTHER Rescue Mission into Poland in an attempt to SAVE the Germans living there.
After U.S. President Roosevelt died while in office, he was succeeded by President Harry S. (for Solomon) Truman, ALSO a Jew. He was responsible for bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima with the Atomic Bomb AFTER Japan had tried several times to surrender, but their attempts were not accepted by the Allies. Why? The U.S. obviously wanted to try out their new DEADLY toy - the Atomic Bomb.
President Truman was followed by U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower, ALSO a Jew, who was responsible for ordering the torture and starvation - to death – of hundreds of thousands of innocent German citizens AFTER the war – AFTER Germany had surrendered unconditionally!
WORLD WAR II WAS A WAR

DECLARED BY THE JEWS –

AGAINST GERMANY!

Why did the Jews start a war against Germany?
Because Germany was the ONLY remaining country in Western Europe that had not been conquered by the Jews! Germans were industrious, clean, organized, intelligent, and a strong Christian nation. For all those reasons – the Jews HATED the Germans!
England had been taken over by the Jews 400 years BEFORE World War II, when the Jew, John Dee (the original 007), was the head of Security for Queen Elizabeth I and convinced her to form a partnership with the Jews (Non-Jewish Monarchs of Europe combined with International Jewry) for the conquering of the WORLD!
And the Jews STILL run England, under the dictatorship (from behind the scenes) of the Rothschilds. This Banking family is Jewish (Their real name was Meyer) who control ALL the Central Banks (money supplies) of virtually ALL the countries in the world.
The JEWS had taken over France BEFORE the French Revolution in 1789 and BRAG about it to this day, in their own literature.
The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was Jewish! Lenin was a Jew. Stalin was a Jew. Karl Marx (author of the Communist Manifesto) was a Jew. Leon Trotsky (real name - Bronstein) the head of the Red Army was a Jew, as were close to 80% of ALL the Bolshevists who murdered the Czar and his family and took over Russia by force.
Italy was controlled by the Vatican. The Vatican, and the entire Catholic Church have been controlled by the Jews (from behind the scenes) for several hundred years. The head of the Jesuits, known as the Black Pope, is Jewish – and controls the Visible Pope (the one seen by society) who does the Black Pope’s bidding.
Pope John Paul II (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-religions-christianity-penetration-pope-john-paul-2-jewish.html) was Jewish (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-religions-christianity-penetration-pope-john-paul-2-jewish-news-release.html). The present Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, is Jewish. The Jews invaded, and took over, the Catholic Church over time since the Inquisition, when the Catholic Church threatened death to Jews, and others, who would not convert to Catholicism.
International Jewry told the rank and file Jews to pretend to convert, then get inside the Catholic church and eventually take it over. This they did!

The ENTIRE WORLD has been propagandized to believe that the Germans declared war against the Jews and that the Jews were “victims.” But that is a lie!
It was the JEWS who wanted to destroy Germany AND ALL Germans so they could control ALL of Europe – and DESTROY another Christian nation, something they unfortunately (for humanity) were able to accomplish AFTER World War II.
The Jews NOW control the government of Germany COMPLETELY!
Jewish Presidents and Vice Presidents (http://christianparty.net/wm/wm0250a.html)


everything underlined is a link go educate yourself and read the other side of the story not the mainstream stuff you've been fed all your life.

[luciferhorus]

:eek::D

LH this was the full quote you only quoted the christards and missed out the part about Jews. the second part. It was part joke but also had a serious point

If you where talking about Jews then you'd have a forum possy stalking you and calling you racist and allsorts, not to mention possible off forum interest. The latter maybe something you know already and that's why you don't post about Jewish power, Jew world order or the Talmud etc.


I could easily post loads of terrible things done by Jews, Communists and Muslims.

So have to ask are you Jewish? With all the anti Germanic and anti white posts. Or am I missing some points from your posts?

I'm coming at this as someone with some German blood who has heard the other side of the story about what lead to the Wars (the German version) don't mistake me for something I am not - a neo Nazi or white supremacist (as some often do)
There's more than just white devils in this world



On Zion

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/childrenoftheslaves2.jpg

Well I refer you to my anti-Zionist essay: On the Jewish Problem. On Zion. on: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65233

......and my essay, Summa Contra Judaism (Summary Against Judaism) on: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63798

...........and my essay On Racist, Xenophobic, Nationalist Jesus.http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65968

On Race

Zionism is a political philosophy whose 'god' is a 'real estate agent.'

Judaism is a 'religion.'

'Jesus' was a product of a Xenophobic, Nationalist culture, but as I argue in the latter essay, the Israelites were not of a singular identifiable 'race' 2000 years ago, nor are they today, though most of them today are the non-Semitic descendants of European and Eastern European converts.

Political Philosophy and Race

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/74/201074301_4420323330.jpg?v=0

Generally since I adhere to a 'political philosophy,' rather than a religion, I find the continuous slagging off of 'Jews on this forum distasteful,' since the majority of the Jewish youth are educated, secular, Leftists, Socialists, Communists, liberals, anti-Capitalists, anti-racists and so forth, and only a tiny minority are the religious fanatics who attend synagogue and who are almost exclusively defenders of the Capitalist system.

Talmud

With regards to the 'Talmud' their are infintessimly fewer idiots in the world today who believe in that racist piece of crap than there are who believe in the entirety of the Christian Bible, and I can assure you that if you find the Talmud shocking, it is not any more shocking that the Old Testament with it's justifications for rape, genocide and executions for numerous offences.

Germans

With regards to being anti-Germanic, this is entirely untrue; I despise all forms of nationalism with equal venom to 'German Nationalism;' Communism has nothing to do with Nationalism; I have lived in Germany, had Germanic friends / lovers and I used to speak quite decent German but I have lost touch over the years. I can assure you that many 'Jewish' people are of non-Semitic, Aryan, German descent.

Linguistics 101: Semitism and anti-semitism in Newspeak.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iqLbUdYKsN8/SXA20hQmZRI/AAAAAAAAGJY/T0zZ16YEP5w/s400/Livni+BIO+photo+by+MFS.gov.il.jpg

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/june2008/zipi_livni.jpg

Above: Israeli prime minister Tzipi Livni: notice the fair hair and fair skin

I can assure you that if Tzipi Livni walked down the streets of Hamburg, that you would never in a million years guess that she was a foreigner.

In contrast, if Tzipi Livni walks through the streets of almost anywhere in the Middle East, children might point and say, look at that European / German woman.

If she had lived in Israel 2000 years ago, she would have been identified by her appearance as a 'foreigner (Gentile: lit. person from a foreign country).' Had she walked through the streets of Rome 2000 years ago, her blond hair and pale skin would have identified her as a 'Barbarian (i.e., a German).'


http://www.factmonster.com/images/arab.jpg
Above: Semitic features

Similarly today, if someone with Semitic features, who looks like the person above, walked through the streets of New York (New York has the world's Jewish population outside of Israel) and started slagging off the Zionists, it wouldn't be long before some blond haired, blue eyed German whose ancestors converted to Judaism would be calling this Semite and anti-Semite.

Semite and non Semite have meanings in Oldspeak which have been entirely distorted in Newspeak. I am perfectly fluent in Newspeak but I take great care not to use that language it in my essays and responses, unless I am quoting someone; I am perfectly able to translate what the state terrorists mean when they say they are 'fighting for peace, freedom and democracy' and so are all of you here.

Today's Newspeak Homework:

"The people of Israel have a national and historic right to the land of Israel"........“Israel is a Jewish, democratic country,” "We have to look at things logically and decide how to differentiate between a terrorist authority and causing a humanitarian crisis.” Tzipi Livni

Translate.



The 144,000 Righteous of Israel: The Revolutionary Vanguard. Zionist Communism

With regards to being Jewish, I have stated on numerous occasions that while my father is a Kabbalistic cultist, that he has blond hair, his ancestors were never enslaved in Egypt and that I am neither Jewish nor anti-Jewish, nor non Jewish; I am a Communist; I did work for some years for the Israeli government but I only dealt with kibbutz imports, and I entirely consider Israeli Communism / collectivism to be model for the future world.

http://www.cpa.org.au/guardian/2009/1399/images/supporting-the-palestinian-people.jpg

Israeli Communism, which is slowly being dismantled, nevertheless serves as a model for the future agricultural and technological revolution and the means of carrying out the non miracle of the feeding of the 6 billion (or however many survive the forthcoming apocalyptic war) and the substantiation of economic heaven on earth, the 1000 year agricultural revolution, swords to ploughshares, etc., once the Capitalists are eradicated of course.

That is Zionist Communism and it has nothing to do with religion, race or Theodore Hertzl; it is an entirely political / economic Final Solution which seeks the liberation of the enslaved, the liberation of the motherland (African) and indeed the entirety of Eden and 'lebensraum (living space)' for the freed slaves. The world is not enough.

Extermination of the Untermensche (The Chaff)

As far as I am concerned I do not discriminate between Jewish, Masonic, Christian or atheist bankers / Capitalists and state terrorist collaborators irrespective of their 'race;' I consider them all to be morally 'inferior' to me and to be 'untermensche,' economic parasites, useless eaters, persons of no moral worth, chaff, vermin, etc., etc and I use that term as Nietzsche used it, not as the Nazis used it; they are simply morally subhuman and unfit for life, it has nothing to do with race.

The Wheat

As far as the billions of slaves and victims of Capital are concerned, and the philosophical and political opponents of Capital, I consider them to be my brothers and sisters, and as 'homo-sapiens' they are the same 'species' as me irrespective of their many sun-tans and appearances.

Lucifer

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

Ein Volk, Ein Riech, Ein Fuhrer.
One People, One Kingdom / Empire, One Messiah (Dictator / Judge).

[deathcultreject]

If you where talking about Jews then you'd have a forum possy stalking you and calling you racist and allsorts, not to mention possible off forum interest. The latter maybe something you know already and that's why you don't post about Jewish power, Jew world order or the Talmud etc.


A stalking posse?

No one tells me anything.

Anyone who holds the 'Jews against Zionism' group responsible for bombing Palestine, just because they're Jews . . . deserves to get insulted in public.

No one told me there was a posse . . .

*feels left out*

[eternal_spirit]

Cheers for clearing up some points.


quote luciferhorus
the Israelites were not of a singular identifiable 'race' 2000 years ago, nor are they today, Yes, that would seem to be the case. The shade of skin colour also varied, same as many places across the Planet.

The following is a list of ancient Semitic peoples.


Akkadians (http://www.answers.com/topic/akkad) — appear 4th millennium BC and amalgamate (http://www.answers.com/topic/amalgamation) with non-Semitic Mesopotamian (Sumerian) populations into the Assyrians (http://www.answers.com/topic/assyrian-people) and Babylonians of the late Bronze Age[1] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-0)[2] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-1)

Assyrians (http://www.answers.com/topic/assyrian-people) (Aššūrāyu) — 27th century BC[3] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-2)

Babylonians (http://www.answers.com/topic/babylonia) — 18th century BC[citation needed]

Chaldeans (http://www.answers.com/topic/chaldea) (Kaldu) — 8th to 6th c. BC[4] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-3)[5] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-4)






Eblaites (http://www.answers.com/topic/ebla) — 23rd century BC
Akhlames (http://www.answers.com/topic/akhlam) 14th century[6] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-5)

Aramaeans (http://www.answers.com/topic/aramaeans) — 16th to 8th century BC[7] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-6)[8] (http://www.answers.com/topic/semitic#wp-_note-7)


Ugarites (http://www.answers.com/topic/ugarit), 14th to 12th centuries BC
Canaanite language (http://www.answers.com/topic/canaanite-languages) speaking nations of the early Iron Age:

Amorites (http://www.answers.com/topic/amorite)
Ammonites (http://www.answers.com/topic/ammon-1)
Edomites (http://www.answers.com/topic/edom)
Hebrews (http://www.answers.com/topic/hebrew) — founded the kingdom of Israel and Judah (http://www.answers.com/topic/history-of-ancient-israel-and-judah), the remnants of which became the Jews (http://www.answers.com/topic/jew)
Moabites (http://www.answers.com/topic/moab)
Phoenicians (http://www.answers.com/topic/phoenicia) — founded Mediterranean colonies including Carthage (http://www.answers.com/topic/carthage)


Old South Arabian (http://www.answers.com/topic/old-south-arabian) speaking peoples

Sabaeans (http://www.answers.com/topic/sabaean) of Yemen — 9th to 1st c. BC
Aksumites (http://www.answers.com/topic/aksumite-empire) — 4th c. BC to 7th c. AD


Arabs (http://www.answers.com/topic/arab), Old North Arabian (http://www.answers.com/topic/ancient-north-arabian) speaking Bedouins (http://www.answers.com/topic/bedouin)

Lihyanites (http://www.answers.com/topic/lihyan) — 6th to 1st c. BC
Thamud (http://www.answers.com/topic/thamud) people — 2nd to 5th c. AD
Ghassanids (http://www.answers.com/topic/ghassanids) — 3rd to 7th c. AD
Nabataeans (http://www.answers.com/topic/nabataean) — adopted Arabic in the 4th century AD





though most of them today are the non-Semitic descendants of European and Eastern European converts.Some are yes.



As William Guy Carr points out in Pawns in the Game, both Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange were funded by Jewish bankers. The English Revolution (1649) was the first in a series of revolutions designed to give them world hegemony. The establishment of the Bank of England by William in 1694 was the next crucial step. Behind the facade, England has been a "Jewish" state for over 300 years. (pp.20-24)

The Jewish banking families made it a practice to marry their female offspring to spendthrift European aristocrats. In Jewish law, the mixed offspring of a Jewish mother is Jewish. (The male heirs marry Jews although the Victor and Jacob Rothschild are exceptions .)

For example, in 1878 Hannah Rothschild married Lord Rosebery. who later became Prime Minister. In 1922 Louis Mountbatten, the uncle of Prince Philip and cousin of the Queen married the granddaughter of Jewish banker Ernest Cassel, one of the wealthiest men in the world.Winston Churchill's mother, Jenny (Jacobson) Jerome, was Jewish. By the beginning of the 1900s, there were very few English aristocrat families left that hadn't intermarried with Jews.

It was said that, when they visited the Continent, Europeans were surprised to see Jewish looking persons with English titles and accents.

According to L.G. Pine, the Editor of Burke's Peerage , Jews "have made themselves so closely connected with the British peerage that the two classes are unlikely to suffer loss which is not mutual. So closely linked are the Jews and the lords that a blow against the Jews in this country would not be possible without injuring the aristocracy also." (Tales of the British Aristocracy1957, p.219.)
If they aren't Jewish by intermarriage, many European aristocrats consider themselves descendents of Biblical Hebrews. The Hapsburgs are related by marriage to the Merovingians who claim to be descendents of the Tribe of Benjam.

The Queen of England may also be related to the Islamic prophet Mohammed apparantly it's well known to the Islamic Elite (afterall leaders and people in positions of power, inlcuding political and religious of Islamic countries also claim to be from Mohammed's seed.

Why else would Princess Diana have had married Dodi.


The oldest known Rothschild went by the name of Uri Feibesch who lived in the early 16th century. His descendants lived in the House of Red Shield. His great, great, great, great Grandson was Moses Bauer, who lived in the early 18th century
Several of their ancestors have been rabbis, so the occultism probably came in the form of Jewish Cabalism, Sabbatism, or Frankism.

It was Mayer Amschel Rothschild who convinced Weishaupt to wholly accept the Frankist Cabbalist doctrine and who afterwards financed the Illuminati. Rothschild had given Weishaupt the task of restablishin the old Alumbrado movement for the Cabbalist Jewspractical Cabbala (such as Frankism) attempts to affect earthly matters. It involves the use of amulets and magic numbers as well as the conjuring of evil spirits. Both the Talmud and Midrash contain Cabbalist information. ("Ancient Oriental and Jewish Secret Doctrines, Leipzig, 1805.)

Jakob Frank (1726-1791) was the most frightening phenomenon in Jewish history, according to the Jewish professor Gershom Scholem. His actions were totally immoral. Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman shows in his book "To Eliminate the Opiate" (New York, 1974) that there was a clear connection between Frankism and Weishaupt's Illuminism. The goal of the Frankists was to work in secret to establish Jewish world supremacy. Professor Scholem has clearly documented that they achived extensive political power.

Jakob Frank (actually Leibowicz) was born in 1726, in Polish Galicia. He officially converted to Catholicism but this was just camouflage. Jakob Frank was jailed in 1760 for continuing to teach the Cabbala (Zohar) and for practising secret Jewish rituals. In 173, the Russians attacked the region of Poland where Frank was held prisoner. He was released and moved to Offenbach (near Frankfurt am Main) in Germany where he began to lead a luxurious and wild life. His deeds were evil, his personality nefarous. This information comes from Scholem's books "Cabbala" (New York and Scarborough, 1974) "Sabbatai Zevi" (New Jersey, 1973) and "The Messianic Idea in Judaism" (New York, 1971).

Jakob Frank summed up his doctrine in his book "The Words of the Lord". He asserted that the creator God was not the same as the one who had revealed himself to the Israelites. He believed God was evil. Frank proclaimed himself the true Messiah. He vowed to not tell the truth, rejected every moral law, and declared that the only way to a new society was through a total destruction of the present civilization. Murder, rape, incest and drinking of blood were perfectly acceptable actions and necessary rituals.

Frank was one of those refractory Jews who worshipped devils. The extremist Jews were particularly fond of a devil called Sammael. (C.M. Ekbohrn, "100000 frammande ord", Stockholm, 1936, p. 1173.)


Talmud

With regards to the 'Talmud' their are infintessimly fewer idiots in the world today who believe in that racist piece of crap than there are who believe in the entirety of the Christian Bible, and I can assure you that if you find the Talmud shocking, it is not any more shocking that the Old Testament with it's justifications for rape, genocide and executions for numerous offences.
The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."

Rabbi Joseph D. Soloveitchik is regarded as one of the most influential rabbis of the 20th century, the "unchallenged leader" of Orthodox Judaism and the top international authority on halakha (Jewish religious law). Soloveitchik was responsible for instructing and ordaining more than 2,000 rabbis, "an entire generation" of Jewish leadership.

The Bible Koran and Talmud are all connected and yes all have terrible texts and evils. I think it was some kind of religious tribal disputes that spread across the planet like a virus.

the liberation of the motherland (African)Good luck with that. Problem is Millions of Muslims wouldn't allow it. Egypt the revered place of many occultists and others (Egypt around 96% Muslim population) much of Africa has been Islamised.

Then S.Africa Jews and Zionists.
Then you got the tribal disputes and the rich African Elites, Voodoo and other bizzare practices, genital mutilation and lot's more.

What a mess. I really can't see Africa being turned into a paradise/Utopia any time soon.

[eternal_spirit]

A stalking posse?

No one tells me anything.

Anyone who holds the 'Jews against Zionism' group responsible for bombing Palestine, just because they're Jews . . . deserves to get insulted in public.

No one told me there was a posse . . .

*feels left out*

:D

Good to see you're on form.

[runciter]

http://www.factmonster.com/images/arab.jpg
Above: Semitic features


i'm sure you can find a bigger nose.

[deathcultreject]

:D

Good to see you're on form.

:)

Well I got a bit beffudled last night but it cleared up by the morning :)

[luciferhorus]

i'm sure you can find a bigger nose.

http://www.rentaboatamsterdam.com/canal-cruise-amsterdam/images/fulldetail/anne-frank-diamond-factory-canal-cruise.jpg

Above: Small nose

http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/quotes/images/Goebbels-portrait.jpg

Above: Bigger nose

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/russian-army-repels-hitlers-forces-30.jpg

Above: an even bigger nose

Below: some people who did not or do not care what size your nose is.

http://bettecox.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/bobdylan2006.jpg

http://www.heebmagazine.com/files/photos/81/large/1348.jpg

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/madman_3.jpg

http://m.blog.hu/ne/newkidsontheblog/image/leonard%20cohen%202.jpg

http://www.tehrantimes.com/News/10551/01_CHOMSKY.jpg

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/0000075557-arafat005-0021.jpg

http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/CSF/463-029~Bob-Marley-Posters.jpg

[foobar]

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

[luciferhorus]

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

http://stbenedict.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/pfj.jpg

You've obviously been listening to the 'Judean Peoples Popular Front (J.P.P.F)' or the Judean People's Front (J.P.J)" or "Popular People's Front (P.P.F.)," propaganda; or Brian's mother.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2008/12/24/bbbbbbbbbbb5.jpg

Heretics. Splitters.

Lucis Rex
http://www.redmolotov.com/images/designs/pfj_design.jpg
The People's Front Of Judea (P.F.J.)

[flyermay]

So what as that got to do with bulldozing peoples homes in Spain,they are all in the same club, with the EU statement,they are bulldozing the homes as we type in 2009,23 years after Spain joined the EU,you are telling me they over looked the matter of building homes in the wrong place,and they have only just realised a few years ago,a massive set up if ever I have seen one.

Heartless bastards.

Sorry for being so thick, but I still can’t see the relation between your post and the Republic.

Either way, in case you were trying to criticise Spain, let me give you a hand: I’m not even going to mention the fascist period, from which they are still finding new trenches full of bodies along the Spanish roads; but instead, I’m just going to comment since the “democracy” supposedly came to Spain.

To start with, you may like to know that the Spanish government and the armed forces were always full of hard core fascists (it couldn’t be otherwise, as every other ideology was simply annihilated during Franco’s regime). You may also like to know that in Spain, you are required to carry an ID (national document of identity) at all times, and that failure to do so can end up in a detention in a police station for up to 72 hours; where torture is still common (though they still have no torture charts like in the US). Actually they don’t need any reason to put you in a jail for 72 hours; it is legal to do so whenever they like. By the way, they can also knock your door down whenever they like and enter your home without any court order.

You might also like to look on the net what the so called “left-wing” Spanish government has been up to until now: like the paramilitary group GAL, formed by members of the police forces and paid by Gonzalez’s government to kidnap, torture and assassinate any suspects and their relatives. The secrecy and illegality with which Aznar’s governments cooperated with the CIA fights towards other torture centres around the world. Or the repression on the Basque left, by closing any newspapers that supported them (and even imprisoning their directives), the illegalization of all their political parties, and even the detention of any ordinary citizens just for being suspicious of supporting those parties.

So, as you can imagine, a couple of British citizens losing their luxury holiday homes in Spain is the least of my worries; when thousands of poor families are seeing how their only means of shelter are being bulldozed before their own eyes, forcing them to live with their children under a bridge.

I am stating no country's are perfect,but some are less perfect than others,seeing you brought the UK and the USA into the equation in your previous post.

I couldn’t disagree more, countries are neither perfect nor imperfect; governments, politicians and presidents are! And all of them are now rather imperfect, IMHO.

And that was exactly the point I was trying to make: that while hundreds of British and American good citizens rushed to join the international brigades in an attempt to save a government that was really worth fighting for (even if it wasn’t their own), their governments simply turned their backs on them and on the democratically elected Republic, allowing the fascists to take over.

[lightgiver]

Sorry for being so thick, but I still can’t see the relation between your post and the Republic.

Either way, in case you were trying to criticise Spain, let me give you a hand: I’m not even going to mention the fascist period, from which they are still finding new trenches full of bodies along the Spanish roads; but instead, I’m just going to comment since the “democracy” supposedly came to Spain.

To start with, you may like to know that the Spanish government and the armed forces were always full of hard core fascists (it couldn’t be otherwise, as every other ideology was simply annihilated during Franco’s regime). You may also like to know that in Spain, you are required to carry an ID (national document of identity) at all times, and that failure to do so can end up in a detention in a police station for up to 72 hours; where torture is still common (though they still have no torture charts like in the US). Actually they don’t need any reason to put you in a jail for 72 hours; it is legal to do so whenever they like. By the way, they can also knock your door down whenever they like and enter your home without any court order.

You might also like to look on the net what the so called “left-wing” Spanish government has been up to until now: like the paramilitary group GAL, formed by members of the police forces and paid by Gonzalez’s government to kidnap, torture and assassinate any suspects and their relatives. The secrecy and illegality with which Aznar’s governments cooperated with the CIA fights towards other torture centres around the world. Or the repression on the Basque left, by closing any newspapers that supported them (and even imprisoning their directives), the illegalization of all their political parties, and even the detention of any ordinary citizens just for being suspicious of supporting those parties.

So, as you can imagine, a couple of British citizens losing their luxury holiday homes in Spain is the least of my worries; when thousands of poor families are seeing how their only means of shelter are being bulldozed before their own eyes, forcing them to live with their children under a bridge.



I couldn’t disagree more, countries are neither perfect nor imperfect; governments, politicians and presidents are! And all of them are now rather imperfect, IMHO.

And that was exactly the point I was trying to make: that while hundreds of British and American good citizens rushed to join the international brigades in an attempt to save a government that was really worth fighting for (even if it wasn’t their own), their governments simply turned their backs on them and on the democratically elected Republic, allowing the fascists to take over.

People also allow their country's to become corrupt.

I am stating a fact about not just pointing the capitalistic finger towards the UK and the USA,most country's are corrupt wherever you go,whether they are communist or capitalistic.

and it not just a couple of people losing their homes,there are hundreds who have lost their homes and life savings.

I know all about Spains fascist past,but thanks for your info none the less.

[flyermay]

People also allow their country's to become corrupt.

Exactly, people not only allow their governments to do whatever they want and to misrepresent them and their countries, but they also fund and support them.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=309&pictureid=4005

I am stating a fact about not just pointing the capitalistic finger towards the UK and the USA,most country's are corrupt wherever you go,whether they are communist or capitalistic.

Unfortunately, globalisation has spread too far to make distinctions between western countries, but my point was that the world had many chances in the past to make a difference (though it wasn't convenient for the capitalist empire).

I know all about Spains fascist past,but thanks for your info none the less.

The problem is that all those cases are recent, and none of them are related to the past regime.

Nevertheless, and fortunately, I have not country, king or God. ;)

[spock]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.

I don't feel like wading through the whole thing.

Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?

Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?

i feel his post do not represent my veiw of ...........anything.
i think he is a narcacist that would shag a hole in the ground. or a even slow puncture.
then he'd lecture you, with authority, on the outcome.
the easliy lead may fall for it.

[foobar]

I don't care if he's wrong. His writing is still more coherent and entertaining than most forum posters. I think he's fine as long as he doesn't get access to nuclear weapons when he's in a bad mood.

[luciferhorus]

http://www.sarna.net/files/incoming/forum/132792-nuke.jpg

[runciter]

noses

i don't think that ethnic nosology will lead us anywhere.

the rothschild/sabbetai nose may very well be genuinely jewish.

http://www.harif.org/_images/zvi.jpg

http://www.altruists.org/_img/people/rothschild_brothers.jpg

princess diana's mother was a rothschild, according to some sources.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40233000/jpg/_40233021_frances_body.jpg

[luciferhorus]

princess diana's mother was a rothschild, according to some sources.




I don't know what colour the Commnust israelite Jesus' skin was or the size of his nose.


What I do know is that the Israelites were allegedly the descendents of African slaves, and that Princess Diana's mother is certainly Aryan European.


http://jewsribsinbearjaw.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/ethiopian_jews.jpg


http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/slaves1.jpg


http://hotlism.net/imagehost/images/ecvzvmsbbsmpvpzeji1k.jpg

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/nubian-tribute.jpg


http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/ancient_hebrews/media/IsraeliteSlave.jpg

http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/nubs.jpeg

http://egyptianagriculture.com/images/egyptian_farming.gif

He was probably Semitic (a mixture of races), but he was certainly a Communist/ anti-monetarist.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m89/CHE_LIVES/FREEDOM%20FIGHTERS/Communism.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dwS7qfzBHmQ/SHe5dt1CWaI/AAAAAAAABRY/0OQV2fy0Gv8/s400/cuba+fidel.jpg

LL

Lux
World Communist Revolution

http://thetroublemakertimes.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/cosatu-logo.jpg

[spock]

I don't care if he's wrong. His writing is still more coherent and entertaining than most forum posters. I think he's fine as long as he doesn't get access to nuclear weapons when he's in a bad mood.

that is a fair point.
nukes and lucifer generally do sound like a mix made in hell..... for hell! :rolleyes:
he/you do make make some interesting points of view tho.
whether i believe it or not is irrellavent. but most of it feels like shite to me.
but that's okay isn't it?
if i was pontificating my particular brand of thinking i'd expect a few digs here and there.

[flyermay]

I’m sorry Luciferhorus, but I have to agree with all those criticisms.

I can’t understand why you continue to talk about a nuclear holocaust and the end of the capitalist system. Can’t you just speak the truth once and for all, and say: that everything is going to be fine, that you just want to make our fantastic system even better, that we are all going to get what we want, and that all those victims are simply necessary for our own good?

And what is that bad habit of over-explaining everything? Couldn’t you just expose your case, provide the evidences and add your conclusion in just one short sentence? Is it so difficult to be concise?

And what about those horrible pictures that you keep on posting, full of starving children and dismembered bodies; didn't you heard about marketing? Can’t you prove your point with naked chicks instead, like everyone else?

And for God sake, how dare you post all those long lectures; can’t you realise that posting all those words together only bores all the intellectuals reading this forum? Couldn’t you at least forget for a moment about the easily lead and the gullible, and make a cool YouTube video (also with lots of naked chicks)?

And I’m also pretty tired of your political ideas; we all know what anarcho-communism means, and I can assure you it is not cool enough to catch up!

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=333&pictureid=4061

Sorry, but I just ran out of words to debunk your posts; just let everyone know I disagree...

[91181]

I feel luciferhorus's post are refreshing after the onslaught of masons trolling the Illuminati section posting outright lies , he cuts throught there bs like a hot knife through butter,interesting and hilarious at the same time , i hope you keep posting brother....

[luciferhorus]

I’m sorry Luciferhorus, but I have to agree with all those criticisms.

I can’t understand why you continue to talk about a nuclear holocaust and the end of the capitalist system.



Propaganda: the First Stage of War.

I speak not only as a humanist but also one who is entirely surrounded in the Glastonbury by spritualists, shamans, neo-pagans, psychics, and I am of such an il myself. It is my intuition that there will be a karmic reaction to the current Capitalist imperialism and the incredible suffering which humanity undergoes because of the kingdom of Capital; consider me a warning of what is to come.

I am simply a dialectical response to evangelical militant apocalyptic world Capitalist revolution and imperialism; if they were not as they were, I would not be as I am.

I do understand that those in the homelands of Capitalism do not wish to see retaliation, however I believe it is entirely because the Muslims do 'not' retalitate against the homelands of the Capitalists that there is so much support for the war.

Further in terms of miltiary strategy, I cannot conceive of any other means of defeating the Capitalists other than by nuclear guerilla warfare.

"Guerrilla warfare is used by the side which is supported by a majority but which possesses a much smaller number of arms for use in defense against oppression..........."We must carry the war into every corner the enemy happens to carry it, to his home, to his centers of entertainment: a total war. It is necessary to prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment outside his barracks or even inside; we must attack him wherever he may be, make him feel like a cornered beast wherever he may move. Then his moral fiber shall begin to decline, but we shall notice how the signs of decadence begin to disappear................In a revolution, one triumphs or dies."..............Geuvara

http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/wuo-politics-in-command-necessity-of-violent-revolution-ayers-sojourn.jpg


Can’t you just speak the truth once and for all, and say: that everything is going to be fine, that you just want to make our fantastic system even better, that we are all going to get what we want, and that all those victims are simply necessary for our own good?

We cannot merely await the conditions for revolution, we must create them.

Well that is your belief regarding the 'truth,' but it is not mine; I simply no not believe that the Capitalist and military elites will simply surrender, and I take a traditional Communist perspective that only armed violent Communist revolution in all the world will eradicate armed violent Capitalists. This world may be heaven for you and I, but it is Hell for billions of people and it is a very serious matter; pacifism is simply not a practical solution; it is entirely what the economic and military elites want; they don't care too much about 'criticism,' they know they are evil anyway, but they do not want global militant resistance.

And what is that bad habit of over-explaining everything? Couldn’t you just expose your case, provide the evidences and add your conclusion in just one short sentence? Is it so difficult to be concise?

And for God sake, how dare you post all those long lectures; can’t you realise that posting all those words together only bores all the intellectuals reading this forum? Couldn’t you at least forget for a moment about the easily lead and the gullible, and make a cool YouTube video (also with lots of naked chicks)?


Simplification.

Well I do understand that English is not your first language and that you may prefer 'one-liners,' however many of my essays are in my judgement, very short, concise essays on matters which other writers write very long essays and indeed entire books on. With regards to 'videos;' I do already have videos on video.google and I am working on new ones.

Further, there are frankly only a handful of people regularly debating on this forum, and yet some threads get 1000's of hits and many of them are on the frontpage of google and other search engines for various subjects; this is entirely premeditated on my part.

I am not merely addressing people here, but I am addressing computer programs, specifically the spiders for the world's search engines which search out keywords; to get onto Google's front page demands the use of certain keywords and repetitive phrases. Thus when I use terms such as evangelical militant apocalyptic world Capitalist revolution and imperialism, evangelical militant apocalyptic world Capitalist revolution and imperialism, I am not addressing you but rather a computer program.

Further if you consider essays which on paper are only a few pages, to be 'long' essays, I must say that this says a great deal about your own reading habits.

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/austin-powers-mike-myers-as-dr-evil4.jpg

It is further a magickal working I have been doing for many years; it simply has to do with disseminating Communist propaganda (education) and speaking to all peoples and nations from the sky; it is a very serious matter as far as I am concerned and I am not here for my own amusement.


And what about those horrible pictures that you keep on posting, full of starving children and dismembered bodies; didn't you heard about marketing? Can’t you prove your point with naked chicks instead, like everyone else?

Propaganda of War.

Again, if you are familiar with photoshop, you may be aware that 'keywords' which attract the search engine spiders are embedded into photographs also, and that this shows up in google.images and also in google web.


Further a picture tells a 1000 words. The problem with the Capitalist press is that war is presented in a heroic fashion, one rarely sees in the mass media pictures of the victims of bombings; this is entirely Orwellian; not so in the Islamic media where such images are used as propaganda to incite hatred and revulsion of the enemy; which is entirely my intention.



And I’m also pretty tired of your political ideas; we all know what anarcho-communism means, and I can assure you it is not cool enough to catch up!

Sorry, but I just ran out of words to debunk your posts; just let everyone know I disagree...

Solutions and Counterproposals

What exactly then is your 'solution' to militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism?

What exactly is your 'counterproposal' to militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism?

If everyone on every forum agreed with everything I write, that would be remarkable; I am simply a product of many years of debating; I was not always an Anarchist Communist, I came to that conclusion after years of debating statist Communism with Anarchists, and I eventually had to submit to superior arguments.

Frankly I’m also pretty tired of debating with Capitalists; I simply do so out of a sense of duty and an evengelical commitment to propaganda dissemination and debate.

I am subscribed to over 500 or so forums and I am probably spending too much time here; I generally only hang out on a forum for a while, implant my essays and positions, debate for a while and move on; the Google spider finds me anyway, wherever I go. You will only have to suffer me for a limited time before I get bored and move on.


http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3240/submarco.gif

Comadante Marcos is just one little Mexican with a machine gun who has inspired millions around the globe. The myth always has a more powerful impact on humanity than the real person and will outlive him. Similarly I am just a little Communist with a computer who spams the sky with propaganda. Death is inevitable but the myth of me shall outlive me and will always be greater than me.

LL

Lux


"Hatred as an element of the struggle; a relentless hatred of the enemy, impelling us over and beyond the natural limitations that man is heir to and transforming him into an effective, violent, selective and cold killing machine. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy." Guevara


Lucifer on: Anarchist Jesus. Judgement Day. A Liberation Theology Perspective. Part One.
http://3.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=2ed2cef8e6166403&offsetms=10000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=VmR2YWotgszPQuvd3zhnaBqSarU
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4162680054846428815&ei=4GAxSonaBYWE-Qb49aGuCQ&q=anarchist+jesus&hl=en


Anarchist Jesus. Part Two. Judgement Day. A Liberation Theology Perspective.
http://3.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=3601540b8b70871b&offsetms=15000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=GJRGjaKp8T6vndP-wZ6dbnz83sY
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2669487853657952105&ei=4GAxSonaBYWE-Qb49aGuCQ&q=anarchist+jesus&hl=en


Poverty: A Music Video.

http://2.gvt0.com/ThumbnailServer2?app=vss&contentid=20149817513f57aa&offsetms=190000&itag=w160&hl=en&sigh=KX5giXXsj0J2y2mVxMSqaTz0lmI

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1490944073469903840&ei=xGExStqVBcWK-QaVq5GpCQ&q=poverty+delgado&hl=en

initiators W3 3B2 Z-150T Misawa Wackenhutt b9 NAIAG CISE muezzin salt peter racal LDMX Banner DES quarter jaws MEU/SOC SUW SHA RSO Terrorism Defensive Information pirg condor Stanley NADDIS GEBA Weekly World News NIJ wwics CMS cards e-cash Whitewater nitrate DNR Reflection Tanzania X400 SHS ISCS NAVCOMPARS beef Sergeyev rita BIOL Galil arm M60 Patel Stego DSD SURSAT freedom E.T. KMI napalm Crypto AG Phon-e DC7 srt SO13 LABLINK Toth SCCN SERT BNC MITM NCCS Broadside TSCM FBIS GSGI Soros ETA PKK SM NADIS LHI rdx ISM Glock nuclear charges Air Force One Rolm m118 Commecen EODN credit nkvd NSWT MI5 MKNAOMI Perl-RSA FKS NAVWAN MD4 Active X GPMG NTT Koancho Protection KG-84C piz ri! p HK-MP5 NSA/CSS ASTS redheads STTC Pathfinders UXO Unit 5707 Walther WA2000 MIR jya.com spies Schengen MF 11Emc Choe wetsu Kilo Class BLU-114/B virtual Consulting York BRIGAND MEMEX SASR GCHQ Regli FDM AT Sphinx Peering Xu Yongyue QRR Passwords cordite Monica IDP 2.3 Oz. Arnett pink noise NORAD chosen SADCC CNCIS CIDA PEM Colonel Siemens TRDL Salsa FCIC nonac S.A.I.C. USCOI NSWC Asset sport Analyzer Tyrell SAAM Artichoke NACSI HRM SALDV DSNET1 Sears Tower SVR Information Terrorism VOA CONUS government XS4ALL veggie USCODE qrss UNSCOM rusers ASO CISD unix CTP The Hague siliconpimp NZC-332 Wilma jtf-6 Nash Mary LF M.A.R.E. N9 Military Encryption Chicago! Posse CDC Psyops tekka TNT SAR SAFE executive data havens SWS charges RFX secops World Trade Center SEL passwd COSTIND Baranyi JERTO ASIO 868 captain USACIL OTP Juile Donaldson Kosovo primers Chobetsu benelux Cypherpunks Secert Service TDR Templeton CCS SDIS Exon Shell FID CIA-DST ReMOB NSY charcoal Masuda VHF SNT infiltration Crowell OTAT ITSDN SOCIMI 821 SMG advise EADA wojo
Guppy Coderpunks Finksburg MD buzzer WIR RFI ISPR NSDD IWWSVCS SUAEWICS COS EDI ReMOB Badger SG530 Morgan MI5 DDIS Z7 NCTS smuggle SE interception niche World Domination PTT MKSEARCH P99 NSOF AC cordite L34A1 Active X Hindawi H.N.P. Delta Psyops Sayeret Golani Pixar TDR radint speedbump veggie Yucca Mountain Ingram Mac-10 Soros Tomlinson NSP AIMSX ID! EA quarter Kenya SOCIMI 821 SMG NSY force Wackenhutt MKNAOMI Ft. Meade PEM Chicago! Posse X400 bullion BATF SHF GOSIP Rewson IDF mailbomb PSAC Lynch SHS ISEC security forces E911 Ceridian NLSP SAR NAVCOMPARS SADRS cybercash MSCJ Mary Sphinx ASIC SIW assault team AG IACIS GCHQ S.A.I.C. Tajik FSK TRW LATA chosen SUN IFO composition b EODC Forte RCMP captain BMDO ITSDN R1 supercomputer ISPE BUDS lock picking Ionosphere STTC Pseudonyms SIN Echelon illuminati Alouette ddnp SAAM nailbomb rpg7 TSCI ESN BLACKER Aldergrove executive RSP pirg BX press- release Perl-RSA SART ISADC froglegs Arnett Glock lead styphante POCSAG market Amherst MOD Roswell contacts Blowpipe Pathfinders SEAL TELINT DSNET3 cocaine incendiary device CCSS EODG orthodox Bellcore sniper S.E.T. Team forcast UTU NSA SNS data havens GSGI DDP QRR GIGN CID TACSAT KG-84C DSCS JCET Scully SDI bronze nitrocellulose Encryption W3 ninja CCSQ shelter INFOSEC rsta FBIS Blowfish Counterterrorism Nash Stingers OTAR HK-GR6 petn RRF OTAN Meta-hackers sweeping Flu 767 CIS IWG Fernspah credit card SAP 3M ISSO Harvard AIEWS MISSI Masuda PLA law unclassified SRI Undercover LEETAC Espionage chaining industrial Ti VIP NMI UDT incendiaries Chicago Crust krkosska CISE SGI ISS ssa wojo JRB top secret Edens USDOJ Blacknet Sundevil Visa/BCC WHCA Archives IWIS agencies 2.3 Oz. White Yankee COCOT Colonel grom JICA ASIS teflon bullets anarchy cryptanalysis SURVIAC SAMCOMM

[watson_k]

Lucifer on: Anarchist Jesus. Judgement Day. A Liberation Theology Perspective. Part One.

Anarchist Jesus. Part Two. Judgement Day. A Liberation Theology Perspective.



Is that you in the video LH? (Looks like the your pic on your myspace)

While I agree with flyermay that the images in your posts are disheartening and to be honest I guess that is the point. I also agree with 91181, that the information in your posts is truly enlightening. A lot to take in one post at once sometimes...lol, but still packed full of wisdom.

[stewart edwards]

LH

By all means keep posting your huge articles, for some I find interesting. But mostly I find that I switch off fairly quickly, so can I ask that you include a summary of your points in a couple of sentances at the begining please? Please. Pretty Please... I may even offer a cherry to go on the top. You may find that it increases your readership, for I cant be the only person who doesnt have the time/motivation to read everything.

[flyermay]

Propaganda: the First Stage of War.

I speak not only as a humanist but also one who is entirely surrounded in the Glastonbury by spritualists, shamans, neo-pagans, psychics, and I am of such an il myself. It is my intuition that there will be a karmic reaction to the current Capitalist imperialism and the incredible suffering which humanity undergoes because of the kingdom of Capital; consider me a warning of what is to come.

I am simply a dialectical response to evangelical militant apocalyptic world Capitalist revolution and imperialism; if they were not as they were, I would not be as I am.

Yes, but the capitalists are constantly saying on the telly that we will be rich and famous one day, and you just promise war and sharing all our precious possessions with the poor. I mean: who cares if they’re lying, their offer still sounds better than yours.

We cannot merely await the conditions for revolution, we must create them.

Well that is your belief regarding the 'truth,' but it is not mine; I simply no not believe that the Capitalist and military elites will simply surrender, and I take a traditional Communist perspective that only armed violent Communist revolution in all the world will eradicate armed violent Capitalists. This world may be heaven for you and I, but it is Hell for billions of people and it is a very serious matter; pacifism is simply not a practical solution; it is entirely what the economic and military elites want; they don't care too much about 'criticism,' they know they are evil anyway, but they do not want global militant resistance.

Yes, but if I just don’t do anything, pay my taxes and follow the flow I can go to sleep every day knowing that no one will die. In the other hand, if I listen to you someone might get killed (even if he deserves it).

Simplification.

Well I do understand that English is not your first language and that you may prefer 'one-liners,' however many of my essays are in my judgement, very short, concise essays on matters which other writers write very long essays and indeed entire books on. With regards to 'videos;' I do already have videos on video.google and I am working on new ones.

Further, there are frankly only a handful of people regularly debating on this forum, and yet some threads get 1000's of hits and many of them are on the frontpage of google and other search engines for various subjects; this is entirely premeditated on my part.

Exactly, the problem with your posts –and with book in general- is that they are full of letters and words. I mean, we are in the 21st century, so how can you expect anyone to read a post that is a full page long.

And I saw your videos, but I can’t see the naked chicks. How do you expect people to agree with you then?

Further if you consider essays which on paper are only a few pages, to be 'long' essays, I must say that this says a great deal about your own reading habits.

Well, if you must know, I read the TV guide every morning; so I’m quite capable of doing long readings.

But I don’t understand why can’t you simply expose your case, lay out the evidences and reach a convincing conclusion in just one short sentence; so that we are able to discuss your points of view like adults.

Further a picture tells a 1000 words. The problem with the Capitalist press is that war is presented in a heroic fashion, one rarely sees in the mass media pictures of the victims of bombings; this is entirely Orwellian; not so in the Islamic media where such images are used as propaganda to incite hatred and revulsion of the enemy; which is entirely my intention.

Exactly, that’s why I believe what the mainstream media says, because they change the nasty pictures with cool ones. I mean, let’s be realistic; who would you believe: a guy that posts starving children and war atrocities, or a beautiful blond telling you that our government is working hard to fix everything?

What exactly then is your 'solution' to militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism?

What exactly is your 'counterproposal' to militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism, militant Capitalist Imperialism?

Well, I don’t think that our politicians had enough time yet to deal with the world’s problems? Please, be patient; it will all be solved soon without any of us intervening; what’s the rush anyway.

If everyone on every forum agreed with everything I write, that would be remarkable; I am simply a product of many years of debating; I was not always an Anarchist Communist, I came to that conclusion after years of debating statist Communism with Anarchists, and I eventually had to submit to superior arguments.

I don’t see what made you change. Why would anyone defend anarcho-communism? We all saw in the movies that anarchy means wild gangs of punks terrorising old people, and that communism means that we will have to cue for toilet paper. It doesn't look like fun to me!

[luciferhorus]

Yes, but the capitalists are constantly saying on the telly that we will be rich and famous one day, and you just promise war and sharing all our precious possessions with the poor. I mean: who cares if they’re lying, their offer still sounds better than yours..........if I just don’t do anything, pay my taxes and follow the flow I can go to sleep every day knowing that no one will die. In the other hand, if I listen to you someone might get killed....
!

Dear Flyermay.

All Communists generally have a Messianic Complex; they want to save the world; whereas Capitalists want to save themselves; a slave revolution occurs for the benefit of the enslaved, not for the benefit of the slavemasters. If it is your own economic salvation which concerns you, you should try to move to the top of Captialist food chain.


Exactly, the problem with your posts –and with book in general- is that they are full of letters and words. I mean, we are in the 21st century, so how can you expect anyone to read a post that is a full page long.

Literacy

I do realise that most Americans are barely literate and can barely read a cornflakes packet, have an attention span of a cornflakes advert and can barely respond with oneliners of abuse and contradiction, however you are a European and obviously rather educated and intelligent and thus your comments are surprising.

Interest

I have very much been a reader of non fiction books since my youth and I have a personal library of 1000's of books. For example I have a copy of Peter Marshall's 'History of Anarchism' on my shelf which is almost 800 pages. What kind of person would buy and read an 800 page book on Anarchism? Well obviously someone like myself. There are numerous Communist, Socialist and Anarchist printing presses in Europe pumping out publications which are of interest to the likes of myself. Whereas with yourself, you struggle with a page of text; frankly I doubt that is due to a literacy issue, but rather an issue of 'interest;' people who publish Marxist and Anarchist books do not publish them for anti-Communists and for those who are 'uninterested;' on the contrary. In contrast my 'What is Anarchism?' essay, for example is no more than a few pages of text, but this still demands 1: literacy and 2: interest, but much less so than that of a person who would read an 800 page volume on Anarchism and more.

And I saw your videos, but I can’t see the naked chicks. How do you expect people to agree with you then?

Similarly it requires 'interest;' there are numerous porn sites for those who wish to look at naked women; I have a naked woman in my bed at the moment, but I use the Internet for the dissemination of propaganda (education) and am denying her my attention temporarily to speak to you.

But I don’t understand why can’t you simply expose your case, lay out the evidences and reach a convincing conclusion in just one short sentence; so that we are able to discuss your points of view like adults.

There are plenty of people here who are more than happy to exchange one-liners of contradiction and abuse; however I have found that intelligent debates between educated and literate adults on the Internet and in real life rarely constitute such exchanges. I am entirely like this is real life; I like nothing better than to engage in long drunken, stoned philosophical and metaphysical conversations that last into the early hours of the morning, but I am entirely useless in a pub discussing football (a subject I have no interest in) and exchanging 'banter;' it is simply who I am; indeed you will find that I rarely even respond to oneliners of abuse and contradiction in writing unless it has a propagandistic purpose. As they say 'It takes fool to debate with a fool'


Well, I don’t think that our politicians had enough time yet to deal with the world’s problems? Please, be patient; it will all be solved soon without any of us intervening; what’s the rush anyway.

Well somehow you appear to have a blind faith which I do not share


I don’t see what made you change. Why would anyone defend anarcho-communism? We all saw in the movies that anarchy means wild gangs of punks terrorising old people, and that communism means that we will have to cue for toilet paper. It doesn't look like fun to me!

That is simply a Newspeak defintion of Anarchism, not Oldspeak Anarchism which is a political philosophy

With regards to nuclear war and non pacifism, I refer you to my essay 'Summa Contra Pacificus,' however on a previous occasion where I posted in here, it was apparently considered too radical and was deleted by one of the moderators; what follows is a rather tame edited version which I re-edited in response to a thread on the Religion forum here.

LL

Lux



_____________________



'Summa Contra Pacificus (Summary against Pacifism)'

Lucifer..

The Dialectic

I did not always think as I do now, and I expect that as my life's journey progresses my views will be affected by the dialectical process of study, discussion, conversation and debate.

In my youth I was rather a 'hippy pacifist;' I saw no point to the many wars in the world and wanted nothing to do with them; I very much followed the mantra of 'make love, not war.'

We mostly all have some sort of political philosophy and metaphysical beliefs which often change over the course of a lifetime.

I am 50 years old now and over the years I have had to amend my views on numerous occasions.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6110/ezln6ck.jpg

If you consider the development of Guevara's political thought, he was a middle class medical student with nothing to gain personally from revolution; his transformation to Marxism was due to his experiences in coming face to face with poverty and corruption.

My children are half Brazilian and I am quite well aware of the extreme poverty in the Americas; I have travelled throughout the Third World in my life and my thinking has developed in much the same way and for the same reasons as Guevara.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3240/submarco.gif

“We are going to rise up to overthrow the supreme governments, to overthrow corrupt officials, to throw all the rich and powerful out of this country and begin building a new Mexico with humble, simple people.”....Marcos

Similarly (with Guevara), Subcomandante Marcos serves as a legendary heroic archetype and is much admired by many European and North American Anarchists; Marcos is also allegedly a well educated middle class Mexican who has gone through a similar transformation to Guevara and myself.

How 'effective' he is in the current transformation of a nation of 100 million, mostly impoverished Mexicans, is not the point, he serves as a revolutionary symbol of resistance for Anarchists worldwide and a model for future revolution.

Defence and Human nature

Communism is not an ideology formed in a vacuum, it is very much a militant response to militant Capitalism; if someone militantly seeks to turn your family into slaves, it is entirely human nature to respond militantly, and your mother would probably consider that to be an act of love; love for your family, but justifiable hatred for your oppressor; it not human nature to 'love' a person who wishes to enslave and exploit you forcibly.

http://www.alamy.com/thumbs/6/%7BB7BBE3D2-2B94-40FE-ABEC-F4994D9D3B40%7D/ADAET3.jpg

Contra Pacifism

The Anglo-American state terrorists and their military and economic masters simply will not surrender their kingdom voluntarily or in the face of 'pacifist' demonstrators; it is simply unrealistic. Latin America has witnessed decades of CIA backed military coups of the far Right and numerous corrupt governments; their history is written in rivers of blood; the blood of the martyrs; pacifism is an unrealistic response to this in my judgement.

Nuclear Guerrilla Warfare.

Physics is War. Revolutionary Propaganda (education) is the First Stage of Revolutionary War.

I have no nuclear weapons; I am merely involved in the dissemination of revolutionary propaganda (education), and my positions are entirely a dialectical response to Capitalist state terrorism / narco-terrorism; since the Anglo-American state terrorists and their allies are entirely militant and using weapons of mass destruction, it is entirely appropriate to incite an equal or greater response.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MESsJBWTKYQ/SXoQt9kgzlI/AAAAAAAAAxU/h1Lf5xO9-E0/s400/Che+Guevara+-+Guerilla+Warfare.jpg

Revolution by the Rod of Iron

Frankly I foresee two possible scenarios;

1: Those among the enemies of the Capitalists will bring nuclear guerrilla war to the homelands of the Capitalists.

http://www.cbc.ca/nuclearjihad/gfx/topphoto.jpg

The answer to the question in the image above is 'yes;' physics is not a secret, and ultimately to the Christian state terrorists, physics is war, and thus the hands of their enemies are forced to take the same perspective or to otherwise concede defeat; the point of war is not constant martyrdom, but total victory and the eradication or surrender of the enemy. The powerful have no need to negotiate; they may simply make demands. One cannot fight a tank regiment with a sword; similarly a guerrilla with an AK47 cannot make demands to a nation state which has nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction.



2: The Capitalist military elites will nuke their own homelands in a 'nuclear false flag' as predicted by Alex Jones, myself and numerous others, in order to initiate martial law and dispose of their many enemies, and I certainly hope that after years of spamming the internet with anti-Capitalist propaganda that I am at the top of their list.

If option 1 occurs, this will be an entirely understandable response to Capitalist state terrorist imperialism. The Muslims in particular now have the moral 'high ground' to use nuclear weapons since the Capitalists are using nuclear weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan; it is a story almost entirely ignored by the Capitalist press, but it is one which almost all of the billion Muslims in the world are probably aware of; their media makes sure of it.

If option 2 occurs, the Capitalist state terrorists will make sure that it does not totally destroy their economy, and it shall probably be rather isolated; however when option 1 occurs, expect no mercy.

http://www.klondyke.nl/new/images/extra/extra_16675_01.jpg

These are events I foresee and predict, and which I cannot interfere with; long have I cried out in warning of the consequences of militant Capitalist imperialism; a Muslim outraged by the holocaust of the enemies of Capitalism cannot be 'debated with,' and his militant wrath cannot be interfered with; retaliation shall come about entirely as a consequence of unwritten karmic law.

Nuclear weapons give birth to an entirely new brand of 'Guerrilla Warfare' and since the Anglo-American state terrorists / narco-terrorists cannot be defeated in conventional warfare, their militant enemies are left with no other option. The depleted uranium which fills the air, land and water of Iraq shall come with a heavy price in 'payback' terms.

http://www.wsm.ie/attachments/imagecache/local/attachments/dec2007/140_0___20_0_0_0_0_0_campesinos.jpg


The Return to Year Zero

Probably the best working model we have is the Cuban and Israeli Communist system (kibbutzism); the latter which is unfortunately slowly being converted to Capitalism, however that was not built overnight, but over decades; one cannot simply flee the cities and start collectivisation in a day or a week or a month; unfortunately it may well be too late for the population in urban areas of the first world, however revolution is about the liberation of the enslaved and the oppressed; the agenda is primarily the liberation of the Third World proletariat at the sacrifice of the First World, which is entirely the opposite of what is occurring at present.

Pacifist Models: Gandhi and Martin Luther King

Gandhi himself once stated that pacifism may be innefective against Hitler. I think the population of India at the time of Independence was something like 500 million, 85% of whom were impoverished farmers, and practically the entire population was behind Gandhi; it was an entirely different scenario to that which we face today. On another occasion Ghandi, in pacifist mode, suggested that the Jews should disarm the Nazis by ''praying for Hitler;" I think that to be as inappropriate as disarming the Anglo-American state terrorists by praying for them; if such a thing could possibly be effective I would not hasten to recommend it, however I simply consider that to be naive.

Martin Luther King was merely fighting racism, not seeking to overthrow an entire economic system. Communists generally revere Malcolm X who was highly critical of King's pacifism; frankly today in America the reason that the KKK are still not hanging African Americans is very much due to Malcolm X's attempt to arm the population; you don't get crosses burning on the lawns of African-American ghettos today, because whoever tried such a thing would be met with a hail of bullets.

I am personally a rather gentle and sociable person, I am not at all aggressive in real life, similarly with almost every known Communist philosopher and writer; if I thought there was a way to eradicate Capitalism and their military and economic infrastructure by peaceful methods, I would take up such a cause immediately, however in common with most of the 'Left' I consider pacifism in response to militant state terrorism to be innefective.

Part of the problem is that while the Capitalists have been engaging in genocides and raining fire from the skies on their imperial colonies, this war has never really been brought to the homelands of the Capitalists, and thus the First World proletariat are complacent and lulled into a false sense of security; they can watch the Capitalist revolution occurring in the colonies from their large screen TV's in the First World, but they feel entirely protected from retaliation. That situation shall not continue indefinitely.

The population of Capitalism has a limited time to rise up revolution before the enemies of Capitalism run out of patience, and none know the day and hour of Judgement except those who by their militant will plan and prepare for it.

Remote Viewing

Remote viewing is taken very seriously by the American military intelligence; it is simply a form telepathy, the development of the 'psychic' nature; it is unreliable in terms of 'absolute certainty,' however when many psychics are picking up the same intuition that nuclear war is forthcoming, then this is something to worry about. If rats on a sinking ship, purely by intuition know that the ship is sinking and start rushing to the surface, how much more so should we humans not understand that the hour of apocalyptic Judgement is at hand.

Swords to Ploughshares

If anyone has a pacifist solution to transform economic Hell on Earth into economic Heaven on Earth and implement the non miraculous feeding of the 6 billion (swords to ploughshares), then you will need to implement it very quickly before all Hell breaks loose; the providential clock is ticking and you do not have an unlimited amount of time. Unfortunately the apocalyptic prophecies of 'swords to ploughshares' only come after global nuclear war, and such prophecies will inevitably be invoked into life by the many enemies of Christian Capitalism / State Terrorism.


Love and Light

Lucifer

http://swordattheready.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/amerorevolution.jpg


http://blog.uncovering.org/archives/uploads/2007/071009_blog.uncovering.org_che-guevara_2.jpg


We must bear in mind that imperialism is a world system, the last stage of capitalism — and it must be defeated in a world confrontation. The strategic end of this struggle should be the destruction of imperialism.....

While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is no other than the United States of America.

We must carry out a general task with the tactical purpose of getting the enemy out of its natural environment, forcing him to fight in regions where his own life and habits will clash with the existing reality......

We will only be able to overcome that army by undermining their morale — and this is accomplished by defeating it and causing it repeated sufferings.........

But this brief outline of victories carries within itself the immense sacrifice of the people, sacrifices that should be demanded beginning today, in plain daylight, and which perhaps may be less painful than those we would have to endure if we constantly avoided battle in an attempt to have others pull our chestnuts out of the fire.....

We cannot foresee the future, but we should never give in to the defeatist temptation of being the vanguard of a nation which yearns for freedom, but abhors the struggle it entails and awaits its freedom as a crumb of victory. …

They are pushing us into this struggle; there is no alternative: we must prepare it and we must decide to undertake it...........

We must carry the war into every corner the enemy happens to carry it: to his home, to his centres of entertainment; a total war......

It is necessary to prevent him from having a moment of peace, a quiet moment outside his barracks or even inside; we must attack him wherever he may be; make him feel like a cornered beast wherever he may move. Then his moral fiber shall begin to decline.

How we could look into a bright future should two, three or many Vietnams flourish throughout the world with their share of deaths and their immense tragedies, their everyday heroism and their repeated blows against imperialism, impelled to disperse its forces under the sudden attack and the increasing hatred of all peoples of the world!

And if we were all capable of uniting to make our blows stronger and infallible and so increase the effectiveness of all kinds of support given to the struggling people — how great and close would that future be!

If we, in a small point of the world map, are able to fulfil our duty and place at the disposal of this struggle whatever little of ourselves we are permitted to give: our lives, our sacrifice, and if some day we have to breathe our last breath on any land, already ours, sprinkled with our blood let it be known that we have measured the scope of our actions and that we only consider ourselves elements in the great army of the proletariat but that we are proud of having learned from the Cuban Revolution, and from its maximum leader, the great lesson emanating from his attitude in this part of the world: “What do the dangers or the sacrifices of a man or of a nation matter, when the destiny of humanity is at stake.”

Our every action is a battle cry against imperialism, and a battle hymn for the people’s unity against the great enemy of mankind: the United States of America. Wherever death may surprise us, let it be welcome, provided that this, our battle cry, may have reached some receptive ear and another hand may be extended to wield our weapons and other men be ready to intone the funeral dirge with the staccato singing of the machine-guns and new battle cries of war and victory.

Ernesto Ché Guevara
“Message to the Tricontinental” (1967)





Keywords: EZLN Mexico Anarchism Communism pacifism armed violent communist revolution subcomandante marcos nuclear war nuclear jihad nuclear guerrilla EZLN Mexico Anarchism Communism pacifism armed violent communist revolution subcomandante marcos nuclear war nuclear jihad nuclear guerrilla EZLN Mexico Anarchism Communism pacifism armed violent communist revolution subcomandante marcos nuclear war nuclear jihad nuclear guerrilla EZLN Mexico Anarchism Communism pacifism armed violent communist revolution subcomandante marcos nuclear war nuclear jihad nuclear guerrilla EZLN Mexico Anarchism Communism pacifism armed violent communist revolution subcomandante marcos nuclear war nuclear jihad nuclear guerrilla EZLN Mexico Anarchism Communism pacifism armed violent communist revolution subcomandante marcos nuclear war nuclear jihad nuclear guerrilla K3 edition veggie Tools NASA Nerd jya.com Chan Johohonbu data havens Spyderco Enemy of the State SGC Rubin BRIGAND ID 1080H ID! EA PRIME burned PGP 5.1 XS4ALL GOE Rapid Reaction Burns GSGI Area51 Toeffler SITOR H.N.P. crypto-anarchy Banner Planet-1 Gripan NORAD PGP 5.0i tetryl GRU NSOF KYV-5 TRD secure shell QRR Aum Hitwords Reflection Bach osco froglegs jtf-6 DefCon V Red Cell EDI ERV bullion NAWAS Soros IDP P415 KY-75 SLIP Gulf NSRB unix NZC-332 Chicago Posse card H&K IW resta Aladdin Pathfinders SM AVN Hillal AK-47 Unit 5707 SADT dort M72750 Bletchley Park CSE IMF Yakima HK-G3 Flame AOL TOS SBS HRM EPL Phon- e SISDE LABLINK Bellcore BRGE UDT Competitor Tess MSNBC Lexis-Nexis Satellite phones Centro Pornstars eavesdropping VLF Vanuatu president Fernspah ASU FMS COSTIND Fax encryption anarchy KLM SAO Stanley Type II RDI Ronco INR VLSI JASON KMI CIM T2S2 VHF SHS Delta Force Wackenhutt COS TECS c4 Mavricks Roswell FAS Telex Leitrim Sayeret Golani cospo.osis.gov IWWSVCS 2c I&A FDM MEU/SOC DREO 2EME REP NTIS RECCEX SUW chameleon man Keyhole WQC erco plutonium 707 schloss codes package CFC J-6 IRS Broadside Military JRB CipherTAC-2000 DSD FARC Misawa LRTS SAW Pacini Indigo AIMSX Ft. Meade Armani fissionable White Yankee Alica OTAT black-bag PFS Pseudonyms Egret ASO BUDS INFOSEC NSWG Fukuyama forschung Enforcers Terrorism ssa DNR WWSV National Information Infrastructure press-release BAR Blacknet EKMS Lander sulfur Secert Rolm 2.3 Oz. MYK BLACKER HAMASMOIS SERT USCG NMI Echelon MP5k SAI SIGDEV CISD HF TUSA Cap-Stun tiger Ingram Mac-10 grom body armor GQ360 EUB Offensive Information Warfare NTT e95 EAM FSK law OC-12 Crypto AG cocaine NCCS toffee SG530 garbage replay ISPE Dateline rednoise DOE van SACLANTCEN Nike CALCM N-ISDN cybercash Wackendude wojo William Gates SOCIMI 821 SMG CBM JERTO CRA M3 Audiotel BBE ISACA LITE Sergeyev bce JCET Yukon DDIS CCSQ DDN Dolch Class Tie-fighter RSA Gorizont domestic disruption real ! Mace NSO JAVA IDP rdx Bletchley Park IWG Rivera communications RSOC TEXTA. ELF initiators Stingers CIM Trump SP4 JPL 3M EKMS Merlin NAICC SART Razor filofax hate Bach Sayeret Tzanhanim E911 Ingram Mac-10 BX Rand MKNAOMI SARA recondo SUN COSMOS-2224 DJC Centro Juiliett Class Submarine Evaluation Agfa NB Corporate BZ OTCIXS SDI BCCI USCG burned Gray Data 1080H DF TRDL rhost DynCorp Lanceros SARL mission ISSAA Analyzer Mexico Cable & DSCS Delta Belknap Sayeret Golani SVR Minox plutonium impact force SG530 15kg SAMCOMM NCTS Mace NLSP Fukuyama PzB39 CCSS import Sundevil IB Mavricks fish RPK SEIDM NSDM ladylove ANC SAMF Gulf owhere CTP Cap-Stun LABLINK HRT Wilma SEMTEX Leitrim FSB PCS CONUS SHF Fortezza B61-7 Austin Abdurahmon Maple M-x spook FMS LIF Enforcers PA598D28 DST picric acid OAU Phon- e GQ360 MITI SORO DSNET3 SFPD Planet-1 Avi RRF SHS Kosiura DITSA Whitewater NSV Gatt card ie.org Parvus press- release Spoke Ti SDF TEMPEST N5P6 SM NAVSVS Pesec Jasmine M60 lock picking ECHELON ASTS Europol Gorelick ISM SSCI Tony Poe white noise S/Key fritz Starr Kh-11 subversives XM Tzvrif Chicago CUSI SEL VIA GEO Peering SUW Pathfinders SURVIAC JASON Manfurov GIGN ISI illuminati Pod National Information Infrastructure Delta Force SATKA Propaganda INR sorot secret Emerson EODC MOSAIC 747 CATO PGP 5.0i Kiwi FARC spook propellants E.O.D. EO AMEMB CANSLO CISE Information Warfare SPINTCOM Goodwin Anonymous SEAL Team 3 Oscor MP5K-SD press-release Service MI5 nailbomb Glock 26 silver nitrite FN-MAG SNS NSS Masuda BAR WAS hitword Medco NSOF Albright IFO SASCOM MI6

[foobar]

Dear Flyermay.

All Communists generally have a Messianic Complex; they want to save the world; whereas Capitalists want to save themselves;


That's not really true. I believe in a form of capitalism (free trade and private property rights with the state only acting to protect those rights, not corporatism where the state acts to regulate, tax and intervene for the benefit of a few large, well connected corporations) because I think it's better for the world as a whole, not just me.

Conversely, there are many people who espouse communist or socialist ideals because they believe they personally would enjoy a higher standard of living and don't care about the wealth of historical evidence suggesting that denying people the right to own private property and trade it as they will tends to lead to general economic malaise or even famine for the masses in extreme cases.
Even when this isn't consciously the case, messiah complexes can be symptoms of all kinds of submerged personality flaws which make the person totally unsuitable for leadership (people who want to create new laws, organise armed revolutions or otherwise violently destroy or suppress those who disagree with them are asking for a position of leadership whether they realise it or not).

I'm not suggesting that you are in the latter category of cynically selfish communists.

Communism is fine when it's voluntary, and can easily co-exist in an libertarian , 'capitalist' society in its voluntary form.

The thing is, bastards will be bastards in any system we try to create.

It doesn't really have much to do with political economy at the end of the day, although I favour capitalism and free trade (with firm seperation from the levers of state) because it allows for the greatest choice of options.

In a libertarian free market, you can form a community and share as you wish, and you can trade for coin or barter as you wish. In enforced communism you end up imprisoning or shooting people who wish to trade freely, and in enforced corporatism the state acts as hired muscle to forcibly confiscate wealth from people to dish out to their golfing buddies. That's not free trade either.

People like Donald Rumsfeld don't get into deep debates on the economic or social virtue of public sector central planning versus the rigours of free market competition. They just glide between high public office and corporate boards as the need suits them, grinning and sticking the finger up to everybody else.

[luciferhorus]

I believe in a form of capitalism (free trade and private property rights with the state only acting to protect those rights, not corporatism where the state acts to regulate, tax and intervene for the benefit of a few large, well connected corporations) because I think it's better for the world as a whole, not just me.


Dear Foobar,

Libertarian Capitalism.

The solution proposed by the Libertarians (small government Capitalists) and Anarcho-Capitalists (non government Capitalists) has been debated endlessly over the years.

Might I refer you to the Anarchist Communist group on Myspace, for example, where you may test your ideas on enemy territory among intelligent debaters. I have left behind preaching to the converted to chat with you heretics here.

Essentially in the system you propose, you would still have private property, large corporations and a few people would own a great deal of land, property and Capital and many would still be impoverished. It is simply a 'reformation of Capitalism.'

Conversely, there are many people who espouse communist or socialist ideals because they believe they personally would enjoy a higher standard of living


There is an old Communist joke where Trotsky goes to meet Lenin at the train station. As Lenin arrives Trotsky notices that Lenin is travelling First Class. "You hypocrite' says Trotsky. 'No, says Lenin' when the revolution comes, we will all travel First Class.'

Frankly this cannot be acheived overnight. Many of the Israeli kibbutzes are like 5 star hotels in comparison to the poverty which most of the 6 billion people experience in Capitalism, but that situation took many decades to develop.

Obviously those who would be initially the most grateful for collectivism would be those who are now the most impoverished, but as society develops over decades and centuries, I believe that we could attain shared scientific and technological progress far beyond that of this age.


and don't care about the wealth of historical evidence suggesting that denying people the right to own private property and trade it as they will tends to lead to general economic malaise or even famine for the masses in extreme cases.

Collectivism.

Collectivism should not lead to starvation; but to agricultural abundance; a relative handful of kibbutzists in Israel from their desert collectives are dumping massive amounts of agriculture onto the shelves of the supermarkets of Europe, while European farmers are going bankrupt and being bribed with 15,000 pounds per hectare to leave their fields barren, since farming in Capitalism is simply not profitable. Food should anyway not be sold as a Capitalist commodity; not in any world, and 'especially' not in a world where millions are starved and others have to enslave themselves just to eat.

Even when this isn't consciously the case, messiah complexes can be symptoms of all kinds of submerged personality flaws which make the person totally unsuitable for leadership (people who want to create new laws, organise armed revolutions or otherwise violently destroy or suppress those who disagree with them are asking for a position of leadership whether they realise it or not).

Anarchy (anti-authoritarianism; against the Archons) is Order

With regards to a new 'Great Leader' this is entirely the opposite of the Anarchist agenda, however as Bakunin remarked, when it comes to shoes, he refers to the 'authority of the shoemaker' but the shoemaker, the engineer, the doctor etc., are all technical and scientific authorities, not political and religious tyrants.

I'm not suggesting that you are in the latter category of cynically selfish communists.

Many Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalists are similarly merely seeking a 'better world' unaware of the potentially dreaful consequences of their ideology.

http://www.luciferia.tv/thirdworldtax/marsonelayer.jpg

I was not always an Anarchist; I was formerly a statist Communist; I merely converted to Anarchism through an intellectual process where in debates with Anarchists I found that I had to eventually concede that all dictatorships and governments, Capitalist, Communist or whatever, are just forms of tyranny that lead to terror and oppression.


Communism is fine when it's voluntary, and can easily co-exist in an libertarian , 'capitalist' society in its voluntary form.

In a libertarian Capitalist society, you would still have to buy land, own land and have Capital to create a collective; most of the world would be unable to do to; nothing much would change.

The thing is, bastards will be bastards in any system we try to create.

There have been many psychological studies written on the children of the kibbutz (Israeli colectivism) and in general, they have selfishness drilled out of them; there is a distinct absence of the kind of 'bully,' 'tyrant,' 'football thug,' and 'gangster' mentality which is common in the dog eat dog world of Capitalism; where you would have many problems however is in the early days of revolution where those conditioned by Capitalism would struggle to adjust.

It doesn't really have much to do with political economy at the end of the day, although I favour capitalism and free trade (with firm seperation from the levers of state) because it allows for the greatest choice of options.

In a libertarian free market, you can form a community and share as you wish, and you can trade for coin or barter as you wish. In enforced communism you end up imprisoning or shooting people who wish to trade freely, and in enforced corporatism the state acts as hired muscle to forcibly confiscate wealth from people to dish out to their golfing buddies. That's not free trade either.

http://www.luciferia.tv/flashoriginals/ANARCHISM.gif

Essentially the Anarchist agenda is about the abolution of all states and all forms of Capital and tokens of exchange.

As long as some have Capital and others do not, some will eat and some will starve, and with a small government there would be no welfare state and 'nothing' would be free; a society can be judged by how it looks after it's weakest members, such as old people, children, the sick, the poor, the handicapped, etc., all of whom would have no place in an Anarcho-Capitalist or Libertarian Capitalist world; in an Anarchist world there would not be the 'freedom' to exploit and ensalve others; the Libertarian Capitalist definition of 'freedom' and 'liberty' is simply the freedom and liberty a slavemaster has to enslave others; this is the freedom of the slavemaster and Capitalist, not the freedom of the enslaved.

Property is Theft

It is a common misconception among anti-Communists to confuse the absence of private property with the absence of property. On the Israeli collectives they 'share' technology such as computers and vehicles. It is not a question of taking property 'from' one person and giving it to another, which is the Christian Capitalist concept of charity, but rather of a community sharing resources; every person does not need a washing machine if there is a common laundry; every person does need a computer if there is a common Internet Cafe, every person does not need an oven if there is a canteen, and every person does not need a car, for they cannot use it 24 hours a day anyway and most of the time it is unused and wasted; Communism is simply the sharing of communal property.

The sharing of food and technology is not the absence of property.

People like Donald Rumsfeld don't get into deep debates on the economic or social virtue of public sector central planning versus the rigours of free market competition. They just glide between high public office and corporate boards as the need suits them, grinning and sticking the finger up to everybody else.

In the absence of government, the corporations and monopolies would still exist.


LL

Lucifer

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
_________________________

These words of prophecy by Bakunin were all written decades before the first Marxist revolution; thus highlighting the importance of 'correct politics' prior to revolution

Marxism Freedom and the State (extract).
Michael Bakunin.


http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/bakunin/marxnfree.html






................It is the out and out cult of the State. I have no need to prove it in the case of Bismarck, the proofs are there. From head to foot he is a State's man and nothing but a State's man. But neither do I believe that I shall have need of too great efforts to prove that it is the same with Marx. He loves government to such a degree that he even wanted to institute one in the International Workingmen's Association; and he worships power so much that he wanted to impose and still means to-day to impose his dictatorship on us. It seems to me that that is sufficient to characterise his personal attitude. But his Socialist and political programme is a very faithful expression of it. The supreme objective of all his efforts, as is proclaimed to us by the fundamental statutes of his party in Germany, is the establishment of the great People's State (Volksstaat).

But whoever says State, necessarily says a particular limited State, doubtless comprising, if it is very large, many different peoples and countries, but excluding still more. For unless he is dreaming of the Universal State as did Napoleon and the Emperor Charles the Fifth, or as the Papacy dreamed of the Universal Church, Marx, in spite of all the international ambition which devours him to-day, will have, when the hour of the realisation of his dreams has sounded for him--if it ever does sound--he will have to content himself with governing a single State and not several States at once. Consequently, who ever says State says, a State, and whoever says a State affirms by that the existence of several States, and whoever says several States, immediately says: competition, jealousy, truceless and endless war. The simplest logic as well as all history bear witness to it.


Any State, under pain of perishing and seeing itself devoured by neighbouring States, must tend towards complete power, and, having become powerful, it must embark on a career of conquest, so that it shall not be itself conquered; for two powers similar and at the same time foreign to each other could not co-exist without trying to destroy each other. Whoever says conquest, says conquered peoples, enslaved and in bondage, under whatever form or name it may be.

It is in the nature of the State to break the solidarity of the human race and, as it were, to deny humanity. The State cannot preserve itself as such in its integrity and in all its strength except it sets itself up as supreme and absolute be-all and end-all, at least for its own citizens, or to speak more frankly, for its own subjects, not being able to impose itself as such on the citizens of other States unconquered by it. From that there inevitably results a break with human, considered as univesrsal, morality and with universal reason, by the birth of State morality and reasons of State. The principle of political or State morality is very simple. The State, being the supreme objective, everything that is favourable to the development of its power is good; all that is contrary to it, even if it were the most humane thing in the world, is bad. This morality is called Patriotism. The International is the negation of patriotism and consequently the negation of the State. If therefore Marx and his friends of the German Socialist Democratic Party should succeed in introducing the State principle into our programme, they would kill the International.

The State, for its own preservation, must necessarily be powerful as regards foreign affairs; but if it is so as regards foreign affairs, it will infallibly be so as regards home affairs. Every State, having to let itself be inspired and directed by some particular morality, conformable to the particular conditions of its existence, by a morality which is a restriction and consequently a negation of human and universal morality, must keep watch that all its subjects, in their thoughts and above all in their acts, are inspired also only by the principles of this patriotic or particular morality, and that they remain deaf to the teachings of pure or universally human morality. From that there results the necessity for a State censorship; too great liberty of thought and opinions being, as Marx considers, very reasonably too from his eminently political point of view, incompatible with that unanimity of adherence demanded by the security of the State. That that in reality is Marx's opinion is sufficiently proved by the attempts which he made to introduce censorship into the International, under plausible pretexts, and covering it with a mask.

But however vigilant this censorship may be, even if the State were to take into its own hands exclusively education and all the instruction of the people, as Mazzini wished to do, and as Marx wishes to do to-day the State can never be sure that prohibited and dangerous thoughts may not slip in and be smuggled somehow into the consciousness of the population that it governs. Forbidden fruit has such an attraction for men, and the demon of revolt, that eternal enemy of the State, awakens so easily in their hearts when they are not sufficiently stupified, that neither this education nor this instruction, nor even the censorship, sufficiently guarantee the tranquillity of the State. It must still have a police, devoted agents who watch over and direct, secretly and unobtrusively, the current of the peoples' opinions and passions. We have seen that Marx himself is so convinced of this necessity, that he believed he should fill with his secret agents all the regions of the International and above all, Italy, France, and Spain. Finally, however perfect may be, from the point of view of the preservation of the State, the organsation of education and instruction for the people, of censorship and the police, the State cannot be secure in its existence while it does not have, to defend it against its enemies at home, an armed force. The State is government from above downwards of an immense number of men, very different from the point of view of the degree of their culture, the nature of the countries or localities that they inhabit, the occupation they follow, the interests and the aspirations directing them--the State is the government of all these by some or other minority; this minority, even if it were a thousand times elected by universal suffrage and controlled in its acts by popular institutions, unless it were endowed with the omniscience, omnipresence and the omnipotence which the theologians attribute to God, it is impossible that it could know and foresee the needs, or satisfy with an even justice the most legitimate and pressing interests in the world. There will always be discontented people because there will always be some who are sacrificed.


.............


Slavery can Change its form and its name--its basis remains the same. This basis is expressed by the words: being a slave is being forced to work for other people--as being a master is to live on the labour of other people. In ancient times, as to-day in Asia and Africa, slaves were simply called slaves. In the Middle Ages, they took the name of "serfs", to-day they are called "wage-earners". The position of these latter is much more honourable and less hard than that of slaves, but they are none the less forced by hunger as well as by the political and social institutions, to maintain by very hard work the absolute or relative idleness of others. Consequently, they are slaves. And, in general, no State, either anacient or modern, has ever been able, or ever will be able to do without the forced labour of the masses, whether wage-earners or slaves, as a principal and absolutely necessary basis of the liberty and culture of the political class: the citizens.


..............................


it is for that reason that we fight the Marxian theories to the death, convinced that if they could triumph throughout the International, they would certainly not fail to kill at least its spirit everywhere, as they have already done in very great'part in the countries just mentioned.

The instinctive passion of the masses for economic equality is so great that if they could hope to receive it from the hands of despotism, they would indubitably and without much reflection do as they have often done before, and deliver themselves to despotism. Happily, historic experience has been of some service even with the masses. To-day, they are beginning everywhere to understand that no despotism has nor can have, either the will or the power to give them economic equality. The programme of the International is very happily explicit on this question. The emancipation of the toilers cart be the work only of the toilers themselves.

Is it not astonishing that Marx has believed it possible to graft on this nevertheless so precise declaration, which he probably drafted himself, his scientific Socialism? That is to say, the organisation and the government of the new society by Socialistic scientists and professors--the worst of all despotic government!
_______________________

"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed,
law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached
at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded,
by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the
virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every
transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured,
numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented,
forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of
public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed
under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted
from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then at the slightest resistance, the
first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harrassed,
hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned,
judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed, and to
crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is
government; that is its justice; that is its morality."

P. J. Proudhon, _General Idea of the Revolution in the
Nineteenth Century_

- * -

If I had to answer the following question: _What is slavery?_
and if in a single word I were to reply: it is murder, my
thought would have been understood right from the start. I
would not need to speak for long, to demonstrate that the
power to deprive a man of thought, will, and personality, is
a power of life and death, and that to enslave a man is to
murder him. Why then to that other question: _What is
property?_ could I not answer likewise: _it is theft_,
without the certainty of being misunderstood, though this
second proposition be but the first, transformed?

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, _What Is Property?_

[flyermay]

I believe in a form of capitalism (free trade and private property rights with the state only acting to protect those rights, not corporatism where the state acts to regulate, tax and intervene for the benefit of a few large, well connected corporations) because I think it's better for the world as a whole, not just me.

But don’t you think that a completely free trade system without any regulation will inevitably end in monopolisation of goods and services, exploitation of the workforce, exhaustion of natural resources, and abuse of customers’ rights?

Conversely, there are many people who espouse communist or socialist ideals because they believe they personally would enjoy a higher standard of living and don't care about the wealth of historical evidence suggesting that denying people the right to own private property and trade it as they will tends to lead to general economic malaise or even famine for the masses in extreme cases.

Isn’t also true that all dose historical cases where already suffering a social, economic and political crisis and that famine was common among the poorest sectors of the population before communism arrived; or in the best cases, their economies were purposely sank by foreign intervention and international pressure, just to prove that communism doesn’t work?

Communism is fine when it's voluntary, and can easily co-exist in an libertarian , 'capitalist' society in its voluntary form.

I have to agree with the first part of that statement; I don’t think it is right to impose any political ideology on anyone that doesn’t want it. The problem is when those who claim that there should be political freedom go around the world spreading their ideology. Reason why it is imperative to stop the US (and company) forcing their decadent, hypocritical and corrupt life-style on nations that don’t want it.

But disagree with the second one: communism is not about sharing what you produce with others (that’s charity), but to commonly share all resources, goods and services. Unfortunately, inside a capitalist system (even without regulations and taxes) this is practically impossible. A small community inside capitalism cannot produce everything they need (like medicines and technology). So it would be necessary for them to purchase those goods from the outside world, which would inevitably force them to sell their products (being part of capitalism from the start).

[foobar]

But don’t you think that a completely free trade system without any regulation will inevitably end in monopolisation of goods and services, exploitation of the workforce, exhaustion of natural resources, and abuse of customers’ rights?

There would be common law regulations against fraud, theft and the use of force. Otherwise, no I don't think so.


Isn’t also true that all dose historical cases where already suffering a social, economic and political crisis and that famine was common among the poorest sectors of the population before communism arrived; or in the best cases, their economies were purposely sank by foreign intervention and international pressure, just to prove that communism doesn’t work?

No, I just think involuntary large scale communism really doesn't work. For a host of reasons. Some rooted in economics and some based on respect for individual freedom.

The problem is when those who claim that there should be political freedom go around the world spreading their ideology. Reason why it is imperative to stop the US (and company) forcing their decadent, hypocritical and corrupt life-style on nations that don’t want it.

Depends how they spread their ideology.


But disagree with the second one: communism is not about sharing what you produce with others (that’s charity), but to commonly share all resources, goods and services. Unfortunately, inside a capitalist system (even without regulations and taxes) this is practically impossible. A small community inside capitalism cannot produce everything they need (like medicines and technology). So it would be necessary for them to purchase those goods from the outside world, which would inevitably force them to sell their products (being part of capitalism from the start).

Well, in that case you're back to trying to force large numbers of other people to be communists too, for your idea to work. This is part of the reason why communism on a large scale is imposed by force and quickly degenerates into tyranny in practice.

[flyermay]

There would be common law regulations against fraud, theft and the use of force. Otherwise, no I don't think so.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I’m not referring to breaking any laws against fraud, but to the “legal” consequences of a total free market (or pure capitalism). Let’s see an example of each of the risks:

Monopoly: you would be free to legally monopolise any goods or services (i.e. any company would be able to absorb or eliminate all competence).
Exhausting natural resources: any sector would also be free to exploit any natural resource beyond the point of sustainability, preventing any possibility for regeneration (i.e. fishing until there is nothing left in the sea for future generations or other companies).
Exploitation: you would be also free to pay your workforce whatever you want, and to offer them any conditions you chose, as only the offer and demand of labour would mark the limits (i.e. offering low wages without any guaranties for future employment, health or safety).
Abuse of customers’ rights: this is quite a long one, which also includes in more or less measure the other 3, and also:

You could sell any crap without any quality or guaranty.
You could impose outrageous prices on any goods; preventing the poorest sectors to access basic goods or services (i.e. milk and electricity).
You could offer any type of abusive, immoral or unethical contracts on services (i.e. telecommunications and housing).


As you can see, none of these things would be fraudulent in a pure capitalist society, but I’m sure all of us would agree they shouldn’t happen; therefore, they need to be regulated (or eradicated all along).

At the moment, because we live in a regulated capitalist system (which is rather fortunate, given the dangers of pure capitalism), just half of the downfalls of capitalism are apparent to us, for example: outsourcing manual jobs to countries that would employ cheap labour (exploitation and child abuse), disposing of thousands of tons of food to keep its price in the international markets (instead of giving it to the third world), destroying the environment in countries that have a urgent need for foreign investments (as a direct consequence of capitalism), etc, etc, etc.

No, I just think involuntary large scale communism really doesn't work. For a host of reasons. Some rooted in economics and some based on respect for individual freedom.

Depends how they spread their ideology.

Well, in that case you're back to trying to force large numbers of other people to be communists too, for your idea to work. This is part of the reason why communism on a large scale is imposed by force and quickly degenerates into tyranny in practice.

It is not about forcing communism on everyone, but rather on re-educating them to accept that greed, selfishness and the accumulation of personal wealth has an inevitable negative effect.

As Luciferhorus well says, the advantages of communism is not obvious for any of us (who have everything in life), but for those who are less fortunately and completely excluded by the system (whom don’t even have enough to eat).

And I should also point out that capitalism is being also imposed on those who don’t want it; whether it is directly –by military force- or indirectly –by sanctions and embargos-. There are examples of this everywhere (South America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia). Then, why oppose communism with so much determination when capitalism does the same?

Well, with one difference: capitalists tend to impose the ideology for their own benefit, while the communists fight for the good of others and to liberate them from oppression. And please don’t start with any of those right-wing dictatorships that call themselves ‘communists’; they obviously have very little to do with what they preach –as most politicians, by the way-).

[thelonious]

As Luciferhorus well says, the advantages of communism is not obvious for any of us (who have everything in life), but for those who are less fortunately and completely excluded by the system (whom don’t even have enough to eat).

This is simply not true. Communists in China, for example, killed 50 million of their own people. Not with bullets, but with famine. Every single time in history a Communist tried to collectivize food for distribution, millions of people ended up starving to death.

How many people starve to death in the nations of the west? Not too many....as I mentioned, in capitalist countries, the poor people are fat too. Which is precisely why the poor people in the capitalist west are not revolutionary, and are anti-communist.

[flyermay]

Revolution by the Rod of Iron

Frankly I foresee two possible scenarios;

1: Those among the enemies of the Capitalists will bring nuclear guerrilla war to the homelands of the Capitalists.

2: The Capitalist military elites will nuke their own homelands in a 'nuclear false flag' as predicted by Alex Jones, myself and numerous others, in order to initiate martial law and dispose of their many enemies, and I certainly hope that after years of spamming the internet with anti-Capitalist propaganda that I am at the top of their list.

If option 1 occurs, this will be an entirely understandable response to Capitalist state terrorist imperialism. The Muslims in particular now have the moral 'high ground' to use nuclear weapons since the Capitalists are using nuclear weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan; it is a story almost entirely ignored by the Capitalist press, but it is one which almost all of the billion Muslims in the world are probably aware of; their media makes sure of it.

If option 2 occurs, the Capitalist state terrorists will make sure that it does not totally destroy their economy, and it shall probably be rather isolated; however when option 1 occurs, expect no mercy.

Seriously now…

Did you consider a third option? That a large section of the population will finally get fed up and revolt against the system.

I don’t think we are so far from it. Certainly, almost everyone now is well aware of the level of corruption and hypocrisy from our leaders, and the current crisis and events are not helping at all to turn the situation around.

For example, I recently read an article about the Archbishop of Canterbury asking the media to stop publishing any more corruption cases among British politicians, on the grounds that our democracy could be in danger. I think it resumes quite well where we're at.

In regards to martial law, I have no doubt that it is exactly where we are heading. In one hand, it is obvious that most countries are already preparing for such an event (especially the US). And in the other hand, and I guess you’ll agree with me, that all 3 scenarios previously described will inevitably lead to martial law.

One thing is for sure: these bastards are not going to give away their power, wealth and privileges without a fight (not even if that is what their own people want).

[foobar]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I’m not referring to breaking any laws against fraud, but to the “legal” consequences of a total free market (or pure capitalism). Let’s see an example of each of the risks:

Monopoly: you would be free to legally monopolise any goods or services (i.e. any company would be able to absorb or eliminate all competence).
Exhausting natural resources: any sector would also be free to exploit any natural resource beyond the point of sustainability, preventing any possibility for regeneration (i.e. fishing until there is nothing left in the sea for future generations or other companies).
Exploitation: you would be also free to pay your workforce whatever you want, and to offer them any conditions you chose, as only the offer and demand of labour would mark the limits (i.e. offering low wages without any guaranties for future employment, health or safety).
Abuse of customers’ rights: this is quite a long one, which also includes in more or less measure the other 3, and also:

You could sell any crap without any quality or guaranty.
You could impose outrageous prices on any goods; preventing the poorest sectors to access basic goods or services (i.e. milk and electricity).
You could offer any type of abusive, immoral or unethical contracts on services (i.e. telecommunications and housing).


Yeah, this is where economic principles come into play.

Monopolies rarely come into existence without governmental connivance, and almost always break up soon after without it.

Increasing prices with dwindling supply tend to put a check on a resource being completely exhausted, and there's nothing to stop environmentalists buying the title to an area of land to preserve what's on it if they're really concerned.

The point about paying your workers what you want basically ignores the fact that you aren't the only employer in the game. You have to offer a competitive deal to attract staff, or they go elsewhere. Even if there was no minimum wage, I still wouldn't get any takers if the wages I offered were 1p an hour, for example.

The abuse of customers rights concerns basically assume that the 'ardent capitalist' you're describing is extremely incompetent and doesnt' want any repeat custom.


As you can see, none of these things would be fraudulent in a pure capitalist society, but I’m sure all of us would agree they shouldn’t happen; therefore, they need to be regulated (or eradicated all along).

You're making the mistake of assuming that people will turn into savage beasts incapable of planning for the future or negotiating a mutually satisfactory arrangement without some form of bureacratic oversight.

They usually do much better without that oversight.


It is not about forcing communism on everyone, but rather on re-educating them to accept that greed, selfishness and the accumulation of personal wealth has an inevitable negative effect.

Thing is, the left have been saying that for decades, and people by and large just don't believe it.


As Luciferhorus well says, the advantages of communism is not obvious for any of us (who have everything in life), but for those who are less fortunately and completely excluded by the system (whom don’t even have enough to eat).

Communism is a very poor way of increasing agricultural production. It keeps failing.


And I should also point out that capitalism is being also imposed on those who don’t want it; whether it is directly –by military force- or indirectly –by sanctions and embargos-. There are examples of this everywhere (South America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia). Then, why oppose communism with so much determination when capitalism does the same?

Because you aren't describing the libertarian capitalism I espouse, you're describing corporatist capitalism.


Well, with one difference: capitalists tend to impose the ideology for their own benefit, while the communists fight for the good of others and to liberate them from oppression.

Stalin called people who actually believe that 'useful idiots'. There has never been a violent communist revolution which didn't quickly lead to poverty and a police state.


And please don’t start with any of those right-wing dictatorships that call themselves ‘communists’; they obviously have very little to do with what they preach –as most politicians, by the way-).

If your definition of 'right wing' includes 'failed violent communist experiments' then 100% of violent communist revolutions are right wing.

By all means carry on trying to persuade me.

[luciferhorus]

This is simply not true. Communists in China, for example, killed 50 million of their own people. Not with bullets, but with famine. Every single time in history a Communist tried to collectivize food for distribution, millions of people ended up starving to death.

How many people starve to death in the nations of the west? Not too many....as I mentioned, in capitalist countries, the poor people are fat too. Which is precisely why the poor people in the capitalist west are not revolutionary, and are anti-communist.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fiWJRneh4X4/ScwvZ8Qj4MI/AAAAAAAACRw/B0C8IxykCl8/s400/enjoy_capitalism.jpg

The Speed of Agricultrual Revolution

The deaths in China due to famine were not due to collectivisation as such, since collectivisation is a successful method of ensuring everyone has access to food, the deaths were due to the 'speed' of collectivisation.

The Israeli collectivists have the same standard of living as middles classes in the First World, but that did not occur overnight; similarly if there is a nuclear war, the currencies of Capitalism will collapse and there will be no food imported from poor countries to fill your supermarket shelves; thus if you emptied the cities of Capitalism and sent the urabanites back to the land, they could not survive on grass; developing an agricultural collective is a scientific process which takes time and education; it ideally requires tractors, machinery, greenhouses, a diverse stock of seeds, etc., all of which requires a process of development.

Feeding Six Billion People

Modern agricultural techniques offer 'miraculous' results, but they require the investment of simple technology, education and science; we can turn our deserts into greenhouses as the Saudis and Israelis do, we can grow food in humidity (aeroponics) and on concrete slopes (hydroponics); we can yield 10 tons an acre instead of one or two tons; we can have four harvests a year in a desert instead of one harvest in Britain; we have the technology to feed 60 or 600 billion people. All this cannot be done overnight; the population would simply starve, but this shall never be done as long as food is simply a commodity, and like all commodities if there is a high demand and a restricted supply, the price rises and the Capitalists are happy; if corn was in abundant supply it would be worth less than a bag of sand.

Statistics

http://greetingsearthlings.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/fat-capitalist.jpg

This game of statistics does not work Thelonious. It does not matter the statistics we throw around since both our robes are dipped in blood, it is purely an ideological and moral issue.

It does not matter to you the victims of Capital; I can throw statistics at you all day and it will not move your stubborn heart, nor will your statistics move mine, for I am not responsible for Mao's mistakes, but you are an anti-Communist and a defender of Capitalism, but the blood and human suffering which your robes are dipped in are deeper than those which mine are dipped in, and I do not expect that to make the slightest difference to you.

The population of China in the 20th century has always been around one sixth of global population. The rest of the world today apart from Cuba, North Korea and scattered agriculturalists and tribes who live apart from Capitalism, all live in the kingdom of Capitalism; half the world's population lives in towns and cities, most of them in poverty; the kingdom of Capital is a kingdom on which the sun never sets; agriculture and manufactured goods make their way from the poorest countries in the world where they are needed the most, to the richest countries of the world where we have an abundance of mammon and where most of the population are obese.

Capitalist Holocaust

15 million people die every year due to the effects of povery half of them children; this is just deaths, a quantity, a statistic; it does not account for unquantifiable human suffering, slavery and sex slavery; misery has no statistical graph.

Lenin argued that if half the world has to die in order that the other half could live in Communist Paradise, that it would be justifiable.

Currenly the Capitalists are willing to subject the world to poverty, slavery and economic holocaust in order that they can live in economic heaven.

Thus I refer to Lenin.........rivers of blood shall and must flow, but it shall and must be the blood of the Capitalists, not of their victims who in time shall and must inherit the earth.

LL

Lux






The following is from:

http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
(extract only)

http://static.globalissues.org/i/poverty/wdi-2008/consumption-inequality-2005-pie.png

http://www.michaelbeard.com/images/starving_child-sudan2.jpg

More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.

The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.

According to UNICEF, 25,000 children die each day due to poverty.
And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”

Around 27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

If current trends continue, the Millennium Development Goals target of halving the proportion of underweight children will be missed by 30 million children, largely because of slow progress in Southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.

Infectious diseases continue to blight the lives of the poor across the world. An estimated 40 million people are living with HIV/AIDS (nb manufactured in the US), with 3 million deaths in 2004. Every year there are 350–500 million cases of malaria, with 1 million fatalities: Africa accounts for 90 percent of malarial deaths and African children account for over 80 percent of malaria victims worldwide.Source 9

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/image/funny/funny_1022.jpg

Water problems affect half of humanity:

•Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.

•Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.

•More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.

•Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.

•1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)

http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/0021172.jpg

•Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea

•The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.

•Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.

•Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.

•To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit.… The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions … are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.

http://lifewithhammy.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/starvation.jpg

Number of children in the world
2.2 billion

Number in poverty
1 billion (every second child)

Shelter, safe water and health
For the 1.9 billion children from the developing world, there are:


•640 million without adequate shelter (1 in 3)

•400 million with no access to safe water (1 in 5)

•270 million with no access to health services (1 in 7)C

hildren out of education worldwide121 million

Survival for children
Worldwide,

•10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (same as children population in France, Germany, Greece and Italy)

•1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation

Health of children
Worldwide,

•2.2 million children die each year because they are not immunized

•15 million children orphaned due to HIV/AIDS (similar to the total children population in Germany or United Kingdom)


Rural areas account for three in every four people living on less than US$1 a day and a similar share of the world population suffering from malnutrition. However, urbanization is not synonymous with human progress. Urban slum growth is outpacing urban growth by a wide margin.

Approximately half the world’s population now live in cities and towns. In 2005, one out of three urban dwellers (approximately 1 billion people) was living in slum conditions.


In 2005, the wealthiest 20% of the world accounted for 76.6% of total private consumption. The poorest fifth just 1.5%:

The poorest 10% accounted for just 0.5% and the wealthiest 10% accounted for 59% of all the consumption:

1.6 billion people — a quarter of humanity — live without electricity:

The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the 41 Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (567 million people) is less than the wealth of the world’s 7 richest people combined.

World gross domestic product (world population approximately 6.5 billion) in 2006 was $48.2 trillion in 2006.

•The world’s wealthiest countries (approximately 1 billion people) accounted for $36.6 trillion dollars (76%).

•The world’s billionaires — just 497 people (approximately 0.000008% of the world’s population) — were worth $3.5 trillion (over 7% of world GDP).

•Low income countries (2.4 billion people) accounted for just $1.6 trillion of GDP (3.3%)

•Middle income countries (3 billion people) made up the rest of GDP at just over $10 trillion (20.7%).Source 19

The world’s low income countries (2.4 billion people) account for just 2.4% of world exports

The total wealth of the top 8.3 million people around the world “rose 8.2 percent to $30.8 trillion in 2004, giving them control of nearly a quarter of the world’s financial assets.”

In other words, about 0.13% of the world’s population controlled 25% of the world’s financial assets in 2004

For every $1 in aid a developing country receives, over $25 is spent on debt repayment.

51 percent of the world’s 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations.

The wealthiest nation on Earth has the widest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation.

The poorer the country, the more likely it is that debt repayments are being extracted directly from people who neither contracted the loans nor received any of the money

In 1960, the 20% of the world’s people in the richest countries had 30 times the income of the poorest 20% — in 1997, 74 times as much.

An analysis of long-term trends shows the distance between the richest and poorest countries was about:

•3 to 1 in 1820
•11 to 1 in 1913
•35 to 1 in 1950
•44 to 1 in 1973
•72 to 1 in 1992

“Approximately 790 million people in the developing world are still chronically undernourished, almost two-thirds of whom reside in Asia and the Pacific.”

For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years [of the current form of globalization, from 1980 - 2000] have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades [1960 - 1980]. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equal groups, according to what level the countries had achieved by the start of the period (1960 or 1980). Among the findings:

•Growth: The fall in economic growth rates was most pronounced and across the board for all groups or countries.
•Life Expectancy: Progress in life expectancy was also reduced for 4 out of the 5 groups of countries, with the exception of the highest group (life expectancy 69-76 years).
•Infant and Child Mortality: Progress in reducing infant mortality was also considerably slower during the period of globalization (1980-1998) than over the previous two decades.
•Education and literacy: Progress in education also slowed during the period of globalization.Source 29
A mere 12 percent of the world’s population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World.Source 30

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0409/images/stoddart/Sudan2.jpg

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Cosmetics in the United States 8
Ice cream in Europe 11
Perfumes in Europe and the United States 12
Pet foods in Europe and the United States 17
Business entertainment in Japan 35
Cigarettes in Europe 50
Alcoholic drinks in Europe 105
Narcotics drugs in the world 400
Military spending in the world 780

http://thegrandfinale.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/starving_child_carried.jpg

And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic social services in all developing countries:

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Basic education for all 6
Water and sanitation for all 9
Reproductive health for all women 12
Basic health and nutrition 13



The new poverty line of $1.25 a day was recently announced by the World Bank (in 2008). For many years before that it had been $1 a day. But the $1 a day used then would be $1.45 a day now if just inflation was accounted for.

...it appears that much of the poverty reduction in the last couple of decades almost exclusively comes from China:

•China’s poverty rate fell from 85% to 15.9%, or by over 600 million people
•China accounts for nearly all the world’s reduction in poverty
•Excluding China, poverty fell only by around 10%


The use of the poverty line of $1 a day had long come under criticism for seeming arbitrary and using poor quality and limited data thus risking an underestimate of poverty. The $1.25 a day level is accompanied with some additional explanations and reasoning, including that it is a common level found amongst the poorest countries, and that $2.50 represents a typical poverty level amongst many more developing countries.

The $10 dollar a day figure above is close to poverty levels in the US, so is provided here to give a more global perspective to these numbers, although the World Bank has felt it is not a meaningful number for the poorest because they are unfortunately unlikely to reach that level any time soon.

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/jesus_bush.gif


_______________

[foobar]

collectivisation is a successful method of ensuring everyone has access to food

Where ?

the deaths were due to the 'speed' of collectivisation.

Too fast or too slow ? How would you ensure it went at the 'right' speed?


The Israeli collectivists have the same standard of living as middles classes in the First World

They receive subsidy from capitalistic activity in Israel and the US.


, but that did not occur overnight; similarly if there is a nuclear war, the currencies of Capitalism will collapse

Capitalism allows anything to be a currency if the market accepts it. Our paper dollars and pounds are artefacts of a cartel licensed by the state to commit fraud, not 'capitalism' per se.

it ideally requires tractors, machinery, greenhouses, a diverse stock of seeds, etc., all of which requires a process of development.

Capitalism, historically speaking, seems to be a more reliable mechanism for producing enough tractors and ensuring they end up where they are needed.


Modern agricultural techniques offer 'miraculous' results, but they require the investment of simple technology, education and science; we can turn our deserts into greenhouses as the Saudis

Subsidised by sale of oil.


and Israelis do

Subsidised by capitalistic activity in the west.


, we can grow food in humidity (aeroponics) and on concrete slopes (hydroponics); we can yield 10 tons an acre instead of one or two tons; we can have four harvests a year in a desert instead of one harvest in Britain; we have the technology to feed 60 or 600 billion people. All this cannot be done overnight; the population would simply starve, but this shall never be done as long as food is simply a commodity

It would be a commodity even if there was no money and no pricing.


, and like all commodities if there is a high demand and a restricted supply, the price rises and the Capitalists are happy;

Most western capitalists aren't farmers, why would they want to pay more for corn?

[thelonious]

Also, the photos posted by LH of starving children upset me just as much as any Communist. But an important note is that a lot of those photos come from places like Ethiopia and Cambodia: nations that had starving millions because of communism.

[asha loka]

Ethiopia has been a US client state since 1994, with obvious US influence and subversion long before then. Its leaders desperately want it to be more of a US client state - hence the invasion of Eritrea.

I'm not sure what communism has to do with this, exactly.

As for capitalism - what's the current US unemployment rate? 15-20%, isn't it?

More than 300,000 people are losing their homes a month.

124,000 people were declared bankrupt. In one month.

60% of those are caused by people who get ill or have an accident and are bankrupted by the cost of medical care or insurance.

Go on. Preach to me how wonderful capitalism and how great it is at putting food on the table.

Capitalism is just cannibalism with cash instead of money. It's barbaric. And these are the results.

You're happy with this? You're welcome to it.

[foobar]

Ethiopia has been a US client state since 1994, with obvious US influence and subversion long before then. Its leaders desperately want it to be more of a US client state - hence the invasion of Eritrea.


I'm not sure what communism has to do with this, exactly.

Poor organisation of agriculture.


As for capitalism - what's the current US unemployment rate? 15-20%, isn't it?

More than 300,000 people are losing their homes a month.

You can have private property and free trade without giving a few politically connected people a licence to create money out of nothing. These awful things that are happening to people are a result of government-approved fraud in the banking system. It doesn't have to be cured by replacing it with communism.


124,000 people were declared bankrupt. In one month.

60% of those are caused by people who get ill or have an accident and are bankrupted by the cost of medical care or insurance.

Go on. Preach to me how wonderful capitalism and how great it is at putting food on the table.

Unemployed americans don't starve to death. They don't even get skinny.
Unhappy as their lives may be, compare them to North Koreans.


Capitalism is just cannibalism with cash instead of money.

That's a bit dramatic. The much lower odds of you even being able to post on this forum if you lived in a communist country ought to tell you something.


You're happy with this? You're welcome to it.

So are you apparently, because you're posting this from a warm room with a full belly from the safety of a quasi-capitalist democracy, instead of wondering where your next bowl of rice is coming from in North Korea. There's nothing stopping you from defecting.

Sorry I forgot, that's not real communism...

[flyermay]

Yeah, this is where economic principles come into play.

Monopolies rarely come into existence without governmental connivance, and almost always break up soon after without it.

At the contrary, governments do whatever they can to avoid monopolies, to increase competitiveness and to keep the market free of anti-competitive practices (whether it is through direct legislation or through specialised governmental agencies). This is a fact, not my opinion; please check on the many times Microsoft has being taken to court for this matter.

Actually, China was one of the last countries to introduce anti-monopoly legislations in 2007; which was much awaited and welcome in the west.

Increasing prices with dwindling supply tend to put a check on a resource being completely exhausted, and there's nothing to stop environmentalists buying the title to an area of land to preserve what's on it if they're really concerned.

As you would understand, environmentalists are not going to go around the world buying every single piece of land so that the environment is preserved; this is just non-sense. Should they also buy every fish in the sea so that the fishing industry doesn’t over-exploit the resources?

The point about paying your workers what you want basically ignores the fact that you aren't the only employer in the game. You have to offer a competitive deal to attract staff, or they go elsewhere. Even if there was no minimum wage, I still wouldn't get any takers if the wages I offered were 1p an hour, for example.

You are completely wrong, and that’s because you don’t apply your theories to the crude reality. In this world there are countries with an unemployment rate around 50% of the active population. I don’t know what’s the rate in the US or UK, but I’m sure it’s quite high; enough for people to apply for underpaid jobs when they are overqualified. Just imagine what would happen if there was no minimum wages?

The abuse of customers rights concerns basically assume that the 'ardent capitalist' you're describing is extremely incompetent and doesnt' want any repeat custom.

Then how can you explain the consumers’ organisations being up to the neck with overwork, even when the activities of every business are regulated? Again, thinking that a business will not abuse their customer’s rights just because they fear the competition is quite far from reality.

You're making the mistake of assuming that people will turn into savage beasts incapable of planning for the future or negotiating a mutually satisfactory arrangement without some form of bureacratic oversight.

They usually do much better without that oversight.

Well… the world is a wild rat race even with all the legislation, regulations and laws; just imagine how would it be under pure capitalism?

Thing is, the left have been saying that for decades, and people by and large just don't believe it.

How could they, when the media and the education system is constantly telling them the contrary?

Communism is a very poor way of increasing agricultural production. It keeps failing.

Every country suffers famine after a civil war or revolution, and is not exclusive of communism. The only recent case of food shortages in a communist country is Cuba, but I don’t think anyone here ignores that it is entire purposely provoked by the pressure of the US embargo.

Stalin called people who actually believe that 'useful idiots'. There has never been a violent communist revolution which didn't quickly lead to poverty and a police state.

If your definition of 'right wing' includes 'failed violent communist experiments' then 100% of violent communist revolutions are right wing.

I call right-wing communism those dictatorships that everyone always use here as examples. But since none of them are equalitarian, classless and stateless societies, I don’t see the relation between them and communism (the same happens between our political system and a 'democracy'; no resemblance at all).

[flyermay]

Poor organisation of agriculture.

Where are the evidences?

You can have private property and free trade without giving a few politically connected people a licence to create money out of nothing. These awful things that are happening to people are a result of government-approved fraud in the banking system. It doesn't have to be cured by replacing it with communism.

Because communism will not only fix the banking system, but also equality problems, class differences problems and state corruption problems. (No, I’m not talking about a far-right-wing-dictatorship).

Unemployed americans don't starve to death. They don't even get skinny.
Unhappy as their lives may be, compare them to North Koreans.

North Koreans neither starve nor get skinny. And they actually love their leader more than their own mothers (unlike in the US/UK –I saw them crying on the streets when the old leader died, it was heartbreaking-).

That's a bit dramatic. The much lower odds of you even being able to post on this forum if you lived in a communist country ought to tell you something.

Most of us are already in a list of suspects for simply posting here, please read my post about freedom of speech at: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1032309&postcount=12 (”http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1032309&postcount=12”)

So are you apparently, because you're posting this from a warm room with a full belly from the safety of a quasi-capitalist democracy, instead of wondering where your next bowl of rice is coming from in North Korea. There's nothing stopping you from defecting.

Sorry I forgot, that's not real communism...

Exactly, and it’s neither our country; how dare we go to N. Korea and teach them how to be communists (only the US goes around the world imposing their ideology).

[foobar]

At the contrary, governments do whatever they can to avoid monopolies, to increase competitiveness and to keep the market free of anti-competitive practices (whether it is through direct legislation or through specialised governmental agencies). This is a fact, not my opinion; please check on the many times Microsoft has being taken to court for this matter.

Microsoft isn't even a monopoly. The only monopolies that exist in the UK are state-licensed ones where you don't get a choice whether you're a customer or not, like the BBC and the NHS.


Actually, China was one of the last countries to introduce anti-monopoly legislations in 2007; which was much awaited and welcome in the west.

Wait.. so you're defending communism by pointing out that a formerly communist nation has finally implemented anti-trust measures to the delight of the capitalist countries you decry?

Eh.. what?


As you would understand, environmentalists are not going to go around the world buying every single piece of land so that the environment is preserved; this is just non-sense.

Of course, but then they wouldn't need to.


Should they also buy every fish in the sea so that the fishing industry doesn’t over-exploit the resources?

No, they should just take an economics course and understand that fishermen have no interest in destroying their own livelihoods. Just as beef and dairy farmers aren't likely to ever be responsible for the extinction of cows.


You are completely wrong, and that’s because you don’t apply your theories to the crude reality. In this world there are countries with an unemployment rate around 50% of the active population. I don’t know what’s the rate in the US or UK, but I’m sure it’s quite high; enough for people to apply for underpaid jobs when they are overqualified. Just imagine what would happen if there was no minimum wages?

There would be lower unemployment. By all means, give me some examples of countries with 50% unemployment rates and we'll see what kind of economic theories their governments apply to the management of their economies. The unemployment rate is nowhere near 50% in the US or UK by the way.


Then how can you explain the consumers’ organisations being up to the neck with overwork

Consumers associations are part of a free market, but bear in mind that there are a lot of idiotic and unreasonable consumers out there who simply don't understand the concept of caveat emptor and think it's the responsibility of a third party to come and kiss it better when they buy something as advertised and then decide they don't like it, or couldn't be bothered to read the risk statement on an investment agreement.

Again, thinking that a business will not abuse their customer’s rights just because they fear the competition is quite far from reality.

Which rights are you talking about exactly?


Well… the world is a wild rat race even with all the legislation, regulations and laws; just imagine how would it be under pure capitalism?

It's a rate race in every large human society, capitalism just allows for more efficient allocation of resources by relying on massively distributed price signals rather than central planning. That's why 'poor people' in capitalist societies tend to be fat, and poor people in communist countries are rake-thin from insufficient calories.


How could they, when the media and the education system is constantly telling them the contrary?

People own private property and choose to trade in societies with no televsion or newspapers. Private property and the right to exchange it after peaceful negotation is all Capitalism is.


Every country suffers famine after a civil war or revolution, and is not exclusive of communism. The only recent case of food shortages in a communist country is Cuba, but I don’t think anyone here ignores that it is entire purposely provoked by the pressure of the US embargo.

And North Korea. And the Soviet Union under Stalin. Oh, and China under Mao.


I call right-wing communism those dictatorships that everyone always use here as examples. But since none of them are equalitarian, classless and stateless societies, I don’t see the relation between them and communism (the same happens between our political system and a 'democracy'; no resemblance at all).

You can't implement communism without a state because without a state you have no means of preventing people from holding private property or trading it as they see fit. Thats why every time you try to defend communism you're left making the excuse that ever example of Communism every tried wasn't real Communism. It's inherent to the ideology of involuntary communism that it will degenerate into tyranny and/or suffer economic collapse.

[foobar]

Where are the evidences?

The historical evidence of food shortages in communist countries.


Because communism will not only fix the banking system, but also equality problems, class differences problems and state corruption problems. (No, I’m not talking about a far-right-wing-dictatorship).

No, you're talking about something that keeps turning into a 'right wing dictatorship' wherever it's tried. What will you do to make it work out differently this time?


North Koreans neither starve nor get skinny.

Yes they do. They're so malnourished that in just a couple of generations they are on average three inches shorter than South Koreans.


And they actually love their leader more than their own mothers (unlike in the US/UK –I saw them crying on the streets when the old leader died, it was heartbreaking-).

That's the power of brainwashing. North Korea is a strange paranoid disney world of a failed social experiment.

[flyermay]

Microsoft isn't even a monopoly. The only monopolies that exist in the UK are state-licensed ones where you don't get a choice whether you're a customer or not, like the BBC and the NHS.

Yes, Microsoft is not a monopoly, and the only reason Microsoft is not a monopoly is because current anti-competitive regulations don’t allow them to be a monopoly.

You are confusing a monopoly with a state owned organisation.

A state owned organisation, as its name says, is an organisation that has no private capital and it is owned and controlled by the state. They are also called public services because their goal is to provide basic services to every citizen at an affordable price.

A monopoly is an organisation that controls a given market or sector without the interference of any competition.

Since private healthcare and private television channels exist in the UK, neither the BBC nor the NHS are monopolies.

I can't find an example of a monopoly, but just because there are laws against them (as I explained before). But for you to understand what a monopoly is, I’m going to put the example of Microsoft trying to monopolise the market of web browsers (for which it was taken to court), by giving them for free without the possibility of uninstalling them in their Windows packages; making the survival of any competitors simply impossible.

As you can see, a monopoly would drive out any rival companies by abusing their status and by not allowing competitiveness; which is called in business terms “market failure”.

Wait.. so you're defending communism by pointing out that a formerly communist nation has finally implemented anti-trust measures to the delight of the capitalist countries you decry?

You are just steering the discussion away from the subject. The reason I mentioned China, is simply because in one hand, a communist country actually allowed one of the main consequences of what you call libertarian capitalism (by having no regulations against monopolisation), and second, to prove that all other countries have regulations against monopolies and anti-competitive practices.

Of course, but then they wouldn't need to.

Well, you are the one who suggested that the environmentalists should buy any land they wanted to protect. So you tell me what you meant by that as a solution to avoid any unregulated industry completely destroying the environment (as no regulations would stop them from doing so –which by the way, it even happens now with regulations-).

No, they should just take an economics course and understand that fishermen have no interest in destroying their own livelihoods. Just as beef and dairy farmers aren't likely to ever be responsible for the extinction of cows.

Why would they take a course to catch less fishes, when their benefits are directly proportional to their catches?

According to you there would be no regulations, is that it? Then why would anyone take a course in anything, I could open a surgery and be a doctor if I like to, and if I get enough customers (who would stop me?); that’s a completely free market.

There would be lower unemployment. By all means, give me some examples of countries with 50% unemployment rates and we'll see what kind of economic theories their governments apply to the management of their economies. The unemployment rate is nowhere near 50% in the US or UK by the way.

Oh yes, that’s for sure, there would be practically no unemployment, but that’s just because any employer would be able to hire a much labour as they like, due to the low wages. The problem is that everyone would need 2 or 3 jobs just to take one salary home.

Consumers associations are part of a free market, but bear in mind that there are a lot of idiotic and unreasonable consumers out there who simply don't understand the concept of caveat emptor and think it's the responsibility of a third party to come and kiss it better when they buy something as advertised and then decide they don't like it, or couldn't be bothered to read the risk statement on an investment agreement.

Please, saying that customers’ associations are so busy because people just like to complain is like saying that hospitals are full of people because patients are careless.

Organisations cheat and abuse customers for only one reason: because they want to make as much profits as possible with the less amount of investment and in the shortest time; that’s the first rule of capitalism (libertarian or not).

Which rights are you talking about exactly?

That would be a huge list, but I’ll try form the top of my head:

Products that don’t fit descriptions
Products wrongly priced
Contracts not met
Misleading contracts
Products that don’t met standards
Damaged goods
Overpricing
etc, etc, etc


And as you can see I left all the cases related to fraud and theft out of the list.

It's a rate race in every large human society, capitalism just allows for more efficient allocation of resources by relying on massively distributed price signals rather than central planning. That's why 'poor people' in capitalist societies tend to be fat, and poor people in communist countries are rake-thin from insufficient calories.

Poor people in capitalist countries are not fat because they eat well, at the contrary, they are fat because they don’t know how to combine a balanced diet (in short, they simply eat cheap crap).

People own private property and choose to trade in societies with no televsion or newspapers. Private property and the right to exchange it after peaceful negotation is all Capitalism is.

I have nothing against private property or against trading. But I do have against enslaving others to take care of your property and to do the trading for you.

You can't implement communism without a state because without a state you have no means of preventing people from holding private property or trading it as they see fit. Thats why every time you try to defend communism you're left making the excuse that every example of Communism every tried wasn't real Communism. It's inherent to the ideology of involuntary communism that it will degenerate into tyranny and/or suffer economic collapse.

In any truly communist society the state is the people (wait a second, isn’t that also supposed to be in a democracy?)

And by the way, ‘economic collapse’ would have no meaning in a truly communist society, as there would be no monetary tokens to exchange.

[flyermay]

The historical evidence of food shortages in communist countries.

You mean the post-war / post-revolution shortages, that’s not exclusive of communism, and I doubt you would be able to prove the contrary.

No, you're talking about something that keeps turning into a 'right wing dictatorship' wherever it's tried. What will you do to make it work out differently this time?

The same that I would do in the west: ban politicians and hierarchies.

Yes they do. They're so malnourished that in just a couple of generations they are on average three inches shorter than South Koreans.

A couple of generations is what it takes for a country to recover from a full scale bombing by the US.

That's the power of brainwashing. North Korea is a strange paranoid disney world of a failed social experiment.

You might also like to tell us where are Disney World’s head quarters :)

[foobar]

Yes, Microsoft is not a monopoly, and the only reason Microsoft is not a monopoly is because current anti-competitive regulations don’t allow them to be a monopoly.

Microsoft has never had a monopoly. There have always been competing products, some of them free and very high quality. It's nothing to do with belated muddle-headed theft of their profits by the EU.


You are confusing a monopoly with a state owned organisation.

There's no confusion at all. They are state owned monopolies.


A state owned organisation, as its name says, is an organisation that has no private capital and it is owned and controlled by the state. They are also called public services because their goal is to provide basic services to every citizen at an affordable price.

Those are indeed usually the goals, but because centrally planned economics simply doesn't work due to Hayek's planning problem and the warped incentive structure of public sector organisations they usually degenerate into organisations that exist to provide secure final-salary pension careers for the staff, advance their PC political agendas and are often grossly inefficient, charging the public much more in tax burden and public debt than a private organisation would charge directly.


A monopoly is an organisation that controls a given market or sector without the interference of any competition.

That doesn't describe Microsoft and never has. It does describe the BBC though. They have the right to any television owner who doesn't want to pay their fee.


Since private healthcare and private television channels exist in the UK, neither the BBC nor the NHS are monopolies.

That's untrue. Private monopolies can only force a charge when they totally control an essential but have no competition (never been the case with Microsoft), the NHS and the BBC force you to pay despite the fact that there's competition.

I’m going to put the example of Microsoft trying to monopolise the market of web browsers (for which it was taken to court), by giving them for free without the possibility of uninstalling them in their Windows packages; making the survival of any competitors simply impossible.

Netscape died because there product was shit. You don't have to uninstall internet explorer to use firefox, google's chrome or opera. It has nothing to do with anti-trust cases.


As you can see, a monopoly would drive out any rival companies by abusing their status and by not allowing competitiveness; which is called in business terms “market failure”.

Market failuer is a catchphrase that socialists who don't understand markets like to throw around. As you can see, it didn't happen with Internet Explorer bundling. The fact the case occurred was just an example of statist politicians who wanted to feel messianic but who didn't know much about Internet browsers.


You are just steering the discussion away from the subject. The reason I mentioned China, is simply because in one hand, a communist country actually allowed one of the main consequences of what you call libertarian capitalism (by having no regulations against monopolisation), and second, to prove that all other countries have regulations against monopolies and anti-competitive practices.

No, I'm pointing out that your point contradicts the rest of what you've said. And no, not all countries have anti-trust laws, that's completely made up.

Even if they did, how would that prove they were a good thing ?


Well, you are the one who suggested that the environmentalists should buy any land they wanted to protect.

Yes, because environmentalists talk a lot of nonsense sometimes (environmental groups are usually neo-marxist organisations just looking for an excuse to dismantle capitalism) and I'd rather they used their own money instead of try to impose the cost on everybody else.


So you tell me what you meant by that as a solution to avoid any unregulated industry completely destroying the environment (as no regulations would stop them from doing so –which by the way, it even happens now with regulations-).



Why would they take a course to catch less fishes, when their benefits are directly proportional to their catches?

Because, believe it or not, individuals are capable of planning ahead when it's in their own best interests without some holier than thou salaried bureacracy telling them what to do (and usually getting it wrong).

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

^ he was talking about people like you.


According to you there would be no regulations, is that it?

No.


Then why would anyone take a course in anything, I could open a surgery and be a doctor if I like to, and if I get enough customers (who would stop me?); that’s a completely free market.

The customers would stop coming because you'd obviously be a rubbish doctor without any training. You'd also be in prison the first time you injured somebody.


Oh yes, that’s for sure, there would be practically no unemployment, but that’s just because any employer would be able to hire a much labour as they like, due to the low wages. The problem is that everyone would need 2 or 3 jobs just to take one salary home.

Is that what happened before minimum wages existed ? No.

Do you understand why?


Please, saying that customers’ associations are so busy because people just like to complain is like saying that hospitals are full of people because patients are careless.

You missed the part where I explained that customer's associations are part of a free market, just like unions. I just don't believe that either need the force of statute or a government bureacracy behind them.


Organisations cheat and abuse customers for only one reason: because they want to make as much profits as possible with the less amount of investment and in the shortest time; that’s the first rule of capitalism (libertarian or not).

They also want to keep doing that year after year (as do state employees), so if they don't have the power of the state forcing people to hand over their money, they have to offer something to distinguish them from the other capitalists trying to do the same. This is why capitalistic economies generate more wealth and a better material standard of living for the very poorest than supposedly 'altruistic' communist societies.



That would be a huge list, but I’ll try form the top of my head:

Products that don’t fit descriptions
Products wrongly priced
Contracts not met
Misleading contracts
Products that don’t met standards
Damaged goods
Overpricing
etc, etc, etc



With the exception of 'overpricing' or 'wrongly priced' (you need to define what you mean), the rest would be covered by the simple common law of fraud, which I said at the start would still be in force.


And as you can see I left all the cases related to fraud and theft out of the list.

Um.. no, you gave a long list of examples of fraud and two cases which you didn't explain.


Poor people in capitalist countries are not fat because they eat well, at the contrary, they are fat because they don’t know how to combine a balanced diet (in short, they simply eat cheap crap).

That's their own fault. I'd still rather be poor in the UK than poor in North Korea.


I have nothing against private property or against trading. But I do have against enslaving others to take care of your property and to do the trading for you.

By enslaving do you mean 'forcing at gunpoint' or 'offering a wage in return for doing a job'? the two aren't the same at all.


In any truly communist society the state is the people (wait a second, isn’t that also supposed to be in a democracy?)

True communism, by your definition, has never existed and never will.


And by the way, ‘economic collapse’ would have no meaning in a truly communist society, as there would be no monetary tokens to exchange.

Don't be silly. Economies aren't just about money. Economies are about resources and how they are used. Not only can economic collapse can occur in a moneyless society, it's actually much more likely and historically frequent.

[flyermay]

Microsoft has never had a monopoly. There have always been competing products, some of them free and very high quality. It's nothing to do with belated muddle-headed theft of their profits by the EU.

There's no confusion at all. They are state owned monopolies.

Those are indeed usually the goals, but because centrally planned economics simply doesn't work due to Hayek's planning problem and the warped incentive structure of public sector organisations they usually degenerate into organisations that exist to provide secure final-salary pension careers for the staff, advance their PC political agendas and are often grossly inefficient, charging the public much more in tax burden and public debt than a private organisation would charge directly.

That doesn't describe Microsoft and never has. It does describe the BBC though. They have the right to any television owner who doesn't want to pay their fee.

That's untrue. Private monopolies can only force a charge when they totally control an essential but have no competition (never been the case with Microsoft), the NHS and the BBC force you to pay despite the fact that there's competition.

Netscape died because there product was shit. You don't have to uninstall internet explorer to use firefox, google's chrome or opera. It has nothing to do with anti-trust cases.

I can’t believe this; which part of “Microsoft is not a monopoly just because of the anti-competitive legislation” do you not understand. By saying that Microsoft is not a monopoly you are just proving what I just said (that it is not a monopoly).

I already posted the difference between a public service and a monopoly, but you insist in confusing both. It is irrelevant if you or I think that the BBC or NHS is worth the public investment; that doesn’t make them monopolies, as competition exists.

Market failuer is a catchphrase that socialists who don't understand markets like to throw around. As you can see, it didn't happen with Internet Explorer bundling. The fact the case occurred was just an example of statist politicians who wanted to feel messianic but who didn't know much about Internet browsers.

Market failure is fundamental to understand how markets work, and it has nothing to do with any socialist conspiracy. In simple terms, it makes reference to an inefficient us of production, goods or services. And it is definitely the case when the competition is pushed to bankruptcy because the market leader offers the same products for free. There reason is that further development of such products would be considerably slowed down, due to the lack of incentives.

No, I'm pointing out that your point contradicts the rest of what you've said. And no, not all countries have anti-trust laws, that's completely made up.

You still need to prove both statements… (Repeating things doesn’t make them true)

Even if they did, how would that prove they were a good thing ?

I just explained you why in my first post, outlining the main dangers of unregulated capitalism.

Yes, because environmentalists talk a lot of nonsense sometimes (environmental groups are usually neo-marxist organisations just looking for an excuse to dismantle capitalism) and I'd rather they used their own money instead of try to impose the cost on everybody else.

For God sake, do you really believe what you say, or is it just to discuss with me. You cannot accuse anyone of being a neo-marxist just because they have common sense and care about the environment and the inheritance that we’ll leave to our grandchildren; that’s simply ridiculous.

Because, believe it or not, individuals are capable of planning ahead when it's in their own best interests without some holier than thou salaried bureacracy telling them what to do (and usually getting it wrong).

Oh, I can clearly see that’s the case, we see prove of responsible planning everyone nowadays; just look at how each year there are more fishes in the sea, more trees producing oxygen, less pollution and contamination. Actually, I heard that all the regulations are going to be taken out due to the overwhelming evidences supporting a responsible use of the resources and the preservation of the environment.

The customers would stop coming because you'd obviously be a rubbish doctor without any training. You'd also be in prison the first time you injured somebody.

I guess that you do have a point, after all no one has been imprisoned for practising plastic surgery or odontology without qualifications, right?

Is that what happened before minimum wages existed ? No.

Do you understand why?

You must be joking? That shows the limited knowledge you have of history. I don’t really see a point on discussing with you if you are just going to continue making such outrageous claims to prove your point.

Have you ever heard of all the reforms make during the industrial revolution to avoid the constant abuse of cheap labour?

You missed the part where I explained that customer's associations are part of a free market, just like unions. I just don't believe that either need the force of statute or a government bureacracy behind them.

Then I guess you could explain what would be the point of such associations without the power to act against abuses…

That's their own fault. I'd still rather be poor in the UK than poor in North Korea.

But that doesn’t mean that you agree with people being poor while their neighbours are awfully rich; or do you? That’s what capitalism provokes.

By enslaving do you mean 'forcing at gunpoint' or 'offering a wage in return for doing a job'? the two aren't the same at all.

By ‘enslaving’ I mean forcing people to work for others or face the consequences (no guns needed). I’m amazed at how people in the west naively think they have ‘free choice’, when in fact it all comes down to what Chomsky called “manufactured consent” (which means that you are simply conditioned to accept the choices previously set for you).

[foobar]

I can’t believe this; which part of “Microsoft is not a monopoly just because of the anti-competitive legislation” do you not understand. By saying that Microsoft is not a monopoly you are just proving what I just said (that it is not a monopoly).

I understand what you were trying to say, but I'm telling you you're wrong. You're wrong because Microsoft was never a monopoly, before, during or after any court cases based on anti-trust law.


I already posted the difference between a public service and a monopoly, but you insist in confusing both. It is irrelevant if you or I think that the BBC or NHS is worth the public investment; that doesn’t make them monopolies, as competition exists.

You posted what you think the difference is, and I explained why you're wrong. A monopoly is something that has the power to force you to pay. One way of achieving monopoly is by being the only source of a particular economic good (this was obviously never the case with Microsoft).

In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos , alone or single + polein , to sell) exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it

The BBC and the NHS get to determine significantly the terms because they have the force of law in their demands for payment whether you choose to use their service or not. As is the case with the Royal Mail on the sending of letters.
Microsoft never had the only operating system, office software or browsers available, there was always competition. The anti-trust suits were a bit of grandstanding from politicians who don't understand markets who wanted to look like 'saviours.'


Market failure is fundamental to understand how markets work, and it has nothing to do with any socialist conspiracy.

It's nothing to do with conspiracies. Lots of perfectly well meaning ordinary people believe in socialist economic ideas, because they sound altruistic. It's just that they don't know enough about economics to understand why they don't work. Luckily for you, I'm here to explain it all. Market Failure is a socialist nostrum that they use to explain how they think markets work. But I don't trust their models of how economies work because whenever they get in control of one, they screw it up.


In simple terms, it makes reference to an inefficient us of production, goods or services. And it is definitely the case when the competition is pushed to bankruptcy because the market leader offers the same products for free. There reason is that further development of such products would be considerably slowed down, due to the lack of incentives.

Well, that didn't happen with browsers, did it ? Google Chrome, Firefox, Opera.. need I go on? This model of how economies work that you have simply doesn't agree with the real world.

You ought to read a broader range of sources on economics.

[foobar]

Oh yes, that’s for sure, there would be practically no unemployment, but that’s just because any employer would be able to hire a much labour as they like, due to the low wages. The problem is that everyone would need 2 or 3 jobs just to take one salary home.

You seem to think this happened everywhere before minimum wages were introduced. It's not true. Henry Ford would be one clear example. My grandparents didn't work 2 jobs. There was no minimum wage.

[flyermay]

I understand what you were trying to say, but I'm telling you you're wrong. You're wrong because Microsoft was never a monopoly, before, during or after any court cases based on anti-trust law.

This is ridiculous, you are again saying that I’m wrong and at the same time stating exactly what I said: that Microsoft is not a monopoly, never was, never will be (because it would be impossible due to current legislation).

You posted what you think the difference is, and I explained why you're wrong. A monopoly is something that has the power to force you to pay. One way of achieving monopoly is by being the only source of a particular economic good (this was obviously never the case with Microsoft).

No, I didn’t post what I think; I posted what is accepted in business and economic terms as a definition of ‘monopoly’ and ‘state-owned enterprises’.

But it really makes no difference if you thought those terms have another meaning. The case is that you have already agreed that a monopoly is something that should be avoided, but is in fact allowed in your ideal economic model.

The BBC and the NHS get to determine significantly the terms because they have the force of law in their demands for payment whether you choose to use their service or not. As is the case with the Royal Mail on the sending of letters.

I have to give you some credit on this one, but since the BBC, the NHS and Royal Mail have a wide range of competitors (some even bigger and more successful than themselves) you cannot talk anymore of monopolies. I’m sure they were at some point in the past, only at a national level, but those times are way behind.

You forgot to add the second part of the wikipedia's definition, the one that states that: “ Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods.”, which is neither the case of the BBC, NHS or Royal Mail.

Microsoft never had the only operating system, office software or browsers available, there was always competition. The anti-trust suits were a bit of grandstanding from politicians who don't understand markets who wanted to look like 'saviours.'

That’s not the point; the point is that Microsoft has forced other software companies to bankruptcy or to offer their products under freeware, shareware, semi-free, open source, GPL, GNU and other non-proprietary licences. Resuming, what business academics call “market failure”.

It's nothing to do with conspiracies. Lots of perfectly well meaning ordinary people believe in socialist economic ideas, because they sound altruistic. It's just that they don't know enough about economics to understand why they don't work. Luckily for you, I'm here to explain it all. Market Failure is a socialist nostrum that they use to explain how they think markets work. But I don't trust their models of how economies work because whenever they get in control of one, they screw it up.

Well, you might like to check your sources, because ‘Market failure’ does not attempt to explain how markets work, and it is neither an ideology, policy nor an economic measure (much less, has anything to do with socialism); it is a simple term to describe a situation, as stated above.

Well, that didn't happen with browsers, did it ? Google Chrome, Firefox, Opera.. need I go on? This model of how economies work that you have simply doesn't agree with the real world.

Again, freeware, shareware, semi-free, open source, GPL, GNU do not constitute real competition.

But since I’m qualified in web and software development, you might like to know that Firefox and Opera are both variations of the Netscape navigator, and that all of them share the same base code (just different names, skins and add-ons).

So you can thank Microsoft for the 10 years delay in real browser developments.

You ought to read a broader range of sources on economics.

It happens that I’m also qualified in business studies :) and I’m still waiting for you to make any real argument (other than stating that I’m ‘wrong’).

You seem to think this happened everywhere before minimum wages were introduced. It's not true. Henry Ford would be one clear example. My grandparents didn't work 2 jobs. There was no minimum wage.

I doubt that your grandparents were alive previous to the introduction of the new regulations during the industrial revolution.

[foobar]

This is ridiculous, you are again saying that I’m wrong and at the same time stating exactly what I said: that Microsoft is not a monopoly, never was, never will be (because it would be impossible due to current legislation).

No, I'm not stating what you said. It was never a monopoly but this has nothing to do with legislation. Did legislation create Microsoft's competitors? no. Did these competitors exist at the very same time that left-wing EU politicians hoping to loot Microsofts bank account by claiming it was a monopoly? yes. It's nothing to do with legislation. You've completely misunderstood the history of the anti-trust case.



No, I didn’t post what I think; I posted what is accepted in business and economic terms as a definition of ‘monopoly’ and ‘state-owned enterprises’.

No, it's not.


But it really makes no difference if you thought those terms have another meaning. The case is that you have already agreed that a monopoly is something that should be avoided, but is in fact allowed in your ideal economic model.

It's allowed, certainly, but that doesn't mean they will be common occurrences or invulnerable to breakup without state intervention.


I have to give you some credit on this one, but since the BBC, the NHS and Royal Mail have a wide range of competitors (some even bigger and more successful than themselves) you cannot talk anymore of monopolies. I’m sure they were at some point in the past, only at a national level, but those times are way behind.

This is what you don't understand: A monopoly dictates terms. In the private sphere it dictates terms by not having any competition. It doesn't matter that the BBC, the NHS have competitors because they can force you to pay anyway. Do you understand ?


You forgot to add the second part of the wikipedia's definition, the one that states that: “ Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods.”, which is neither the case of the BBC, NHS or Royal Mail.

The Royal Mail has a monopoly on the sending of letters in the mainland UK.
The BBC and the NHS force you to pay despite having competition.


That’s not the point; the point is that Microsoft has forced other software companies to bankruptcy or to offer their products under freeware, shareware, semi-free, open source, GPL, GNU and other non-proprietary licences. Resuming, what business academics call “market failure”.

Which business academics or economists?, they don't all agree you know.
Microsoft didn't force anybody to release Linux, or Google Chrome, or Opera for free. Netscape died because their product was crap which is what's supposed to happen.


Well, you might like to check your sources, because ‘Market failure’ does not attempt to explain how markets work, and it is neither an ideology, policy nor an economic measure (much less, has anything to do with socialism); it is a simple term to describe a situation, as stated above.

'Market Failure' is a nostrum used as an excuse by statists to interfere in the operation of a free market.


Again, freeware, shareware, semi-free, open source, GPL, GNU do not constitute real competition.

Really? Why not ? I would say something that's free is pretty stiff competition.


But since I’m qualified in web and software development, you might like to know that Firefox and Opera are both variations of the Netscape navigator, and that all of them share the same base code (just different names, skins and add-ons).

Qualified eh (whatever that means)?

So am I. Opera isn't a Netscape offshoot (please check for yourself). Neither is Google Chrome.


So you can thank Microsoft for the 10 years delay in real browser developments.

How did Microsoft delay google chrome or Opera? Netscape delayed itself by doing it wrong.


It happens that I’m also qualified in business studies :)

Lol, 'business studies'. You just collect btec certificates at your local FE college, don't you?


and I’m still waiting for you to make any real argument (other than stating that I’m ‘wrong’).

I'm trying to explain very basic economics to you.


I doubt that your grandparents were alive previous to the introduction of the new regulations during the industrial revolution.

There was no minimum wage, or EU employment legislation in this country until well after my last grandparent died. There lives weren't anything like the way you imagine life to be without a minimum wage.

[zero1]

Attempting to summarize Luciferhorus's many great posts and essays may actually be a sin for which an orderly Anarchist like me may suffer excommunication from Communist Heaven and cause me to forfeit the reward of 144 virgins in the afterlife, but here goes -

Anarcho-Communism = GOOD

Any Form of CAPITALISM = BAD.

Note that I deliberatly CAPITALIZED the letters of the word CAPITALISM, so as to show how conditioned by CAPITALISM I am.

:D

[flyermay]

No, I'm not stating what you said. It was never a monopoly but this has nothing to do with legislation. Did legislation create Microsoft's competitors? no. Did these competitors exist at the very same time that left-wing EU politicians hoping to loot Microsofts bank account by claiming it was a monopoly? yes. It's nothing to do with legislation. You've completely misunderstood the history of the anti-trust case.

This is getting nowhere, and I have no interest in explaining terms and concepts forever. Please feel free to do what you like with the following quotes I found on the net for you; I’m done:

United States v. Microsoft

“United States v. Microsoft was a set of consolidated civil actions filed against Microsoft Corporation on May 18, 1998 by the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) and 20 U.S. states. Joel I. Klein was the lead prosecutor. The plaintiffs alleged that Microsoft abused monopoly power on Intel-based personal computers in its handling of operating system sales and web browser sales.”
More information on: Antitrust Case Filings, Antitrust Division - United States v. Microsoft

Simply: no Europe, no political left, no misunderstanding...

This is what you don't understand: A monopoly dictates terms. In the private sphere it dictates terms by not having any competition. It doesn't matter that the BBC, the NHS have competitors because they can force you to pay anyway. Do you understand ?

I understand that repeating things don’t make them right; I posted the definition of a monopoly already three times, and I still can’t see what is so confusing about:
Monopolies:

“Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods”.
Source: Wikipedia.com

Which business academics or economists?, they don't all agree you know.

'Market Failure' is a nostrum used as an excuse by statists to interfere in the operation of a free market.

There isn’t a single academic or economist in the world which doesn’t agrees with my definition of ‘market failure’. Well… you, but you aren’t either, obviously.

Market failure:

”In economics, a market failure exists when the production or use of goods and services by the market is not efficient. That is, there exists another outcome where all involved can be made better off. Market failures can be viewed as scenarios where individuals' pursuit of pure self-interest leads to results that are not efficient – that can be improved upon from the societal point-of-view.”
Source: Wikipedia

“There are various ways in which an unregulated market may fail to produce an ideal state of affairs. The main sources of market failure are monopoly, externalities, and income distribution.”
Source: The Oxford dictionary of Economics

So am I. Opera isn't a Netscape offshoot (please check for yourself). Neither is Google Chrome.

You’re right on this one (my mistake), these are the ones with a Gecko core: Mozilla Firefox, Camino, SeaMonkey and Netscape 6-8.

How did Microsoft delay google chrome or Opera? Netscape delayed itself by doing it wrong.

Very easily, reducing drastically the returns of developing new browsers.

I'm trying to explain very basic economics to you.

I was really hoping you did, but I just see a lot of confusion.

No It's allowed, certainly, but that doesn't mean they will be common occurrences or invulnerable to breakup without state intervention.

And this is my last quote (and post) on the subject, I’m done going around in circles with you:

On Pure Capitalism:

“Its interesting to consider that, were not for government intervention in the economy, the capitalist system, as predicted by Karl Marx in the nineteen century, would have long ago exploded and extinct.

What Marx said, and makes sense to me today even though I reject Marxism, was that, when in an environment of free competition, enterprises tended to buy out their competitors and form monopolies which then terminate the original free competition regime.

We all know that this is true: monopolies, once created reduce supply and increase prices together with a potential decrease in quality and range of products or services offered. The main feature of monopolies is that they are in control of a particular level of demand for their products.”
Source: xfinance.com.au

I have to admit that after reading the first paragraph of this quote I'm starting to think that there should be no government intervention in the US economy (for the benefit of the whole world). :rolleyes:

[flyermay]

Any Form of CAPITALISM = BAD.

But as you can see, some people don't have enough with capitalism; they want 'pure capitalism' (or, be absolutely free to enslave and abuse as you like without any control).

[foobar]

But as you can see, some people don't have enough with capitalism; they want 'pure capitalism' (or, be absolutely free to enslave and abuse as you like without any control).

There's no slavery involved. It's trade.

[zero1]

But as you can see, some people don't have enough with capitalism; they want 'pure capitalism' (or, be absolutely free to enslave and abuse as you like without any control).

Indeed, in Foobar's world, we would all be anarcho-CAPITALIST slave fodder, free 'trade' items on an unregulated 'market' (read; casino) where the theives and shysters reign over all, where 'security' = bullies in power and Mob Bosses are respectable businessmen (oh wait, that sounds a bit like...the real world actually). And the good doth starve and burn. Luciferhorus is right, the only way is militant apocalyptic war against Capitalists, and if that means killing every last fucking one of them, so be it.

[foobar]

Indeed, in Foobar's world, we would all be anarcho-CAPITALIST slave fodder, free 'trade' items on an unregulated 'market' (read; casino) where the theives and shysters reign over all, where 'security' = bullies in power and Mob Bosses are respectable businessmen (oh wait, that sounds a bit like...the real world actually). And the good doth starve and burn. Luciferhorus is right, the only way is militant apocalyptic war against Capitalists, and if that means killing every last fucking one of them, so be it.

Firstly, there'd still be laws against theft, fraud and violent coercion.

Secondly, why do you insist calling 'having a job' or 'running a business' slavery?
that's not slavery, it's trade. You have material needs other people can satisfy, you offer something in return for them. Not slavery at all.

Basically, you're proposing large-scale violence because you don't like having to negotiate and offer something the other person wants in return in order to live. Slavery is when you yourself are property. You aren't anybody's property. You're an adult expected to provide for themselves. It's not the government protecting you from slavery. The closest you'll come to slavery in most western countries is when you're subject to a military draft or made to pay taxes.

The fact that people don't give you the things you need and want for free doesn't make you a slave.

[flyermay]

Firstly, there'd still be laws against theft, fraud and violent coercion.

But none against the abuses that I mentioned in the first post.

Secondly, why do you insist calling 'having a job' or 'running a business' slavery?

Because, as I explained you before, we are forced to work for others (since our parents didn’t left us enough to be slave-masters ourselves).

that's not slavery, it's trade. You have material needs other people can satisfy, you offer something in return for them. Not slavery at all.

Trade of human labour = slavery (as we said; where is the confusion).

Basically, you're proposing large-scale violence because you don't like having to negotiate and offer something the other person wants in return in order to live. Slavery is when you yourself are property. You aren't anybody's property. You're an adult expected to provide for themselves. It's not the government protecting you from slavery. The closest you'll come to slavery in most western countries is when you're subject to a military draft or made to pay taxes.

Oh no, we are willing to negotiate an trade on equal terms, when Rothschild, Windsor and company come back down to earth and give up their priviledge enherited status we will be in equal conditions. Until then, we are being abused.

By the way, I have to agree with you on the taxes.

The fact that people don't give you the things you need and want for free doesn't make you a slave.

No, what makes us slaves is that we started the race with a disadvantage that is simply out of scale; and therefore, we are forced to work for them (one way or another).

[zero1]

Firstly, there'd still be laws against theft, fraud and violent coercion.

Enforced by whom, in your anarcho-CAPITALIST Randian utopia? No regulation of 'free' markets = no anti-trust laws. Free reign for the criminals.

Secondly, why do you insist calling 'having a job' or 'running a business' slavery? That's not slavery, it's trade. You have material needs other people can satisfy, you offer something in return for them. Not slavery at all.

Employment is slavery; you serve someone else's interests, and pay taxes to the gang in power (the government). Even if you're spiritual about it like the Catholics are, and appreciate intellectually the significance of 'service', you're still indebted to and a subject to the will of another. 'Trade' is simply the exchange of one lesser economic value (the servant) for another greater one (the master). Master always wins in the big fix.

Basically, you're proposing large-scale violence because you don't like having to negotiate and offer something the other person wants in return in order to live. Slavery is when you yourself are property. You aren't anybody's property. You're an adult expected to provide for themselves. It's not the government protecting you from slavery. The closest you'll come to slavery in most western countries is when you're subject to a military draft or made to pay taxes.

I shouldn't have to offer something, anything, to anyone to 'live'. I am a sovereign sentient and sapient being; I deserve to have my will done. I can provide for myself only at the expense of another; that is the CAPITALIST way. I find this morally repugnant and worthless, frankly, and will not be sad to see the (soon coming) end of it all.

The fact that people don't give you the things you need and want for free doesn't make you a slave.

Well pardon me for saying so, but it sure feels like it does...

[foobar]

Enforced by whom, in your anarcho-CAPITALIST Randian utopia? No regulation of 'free' markets = no anti-trust laws. Free reign for the criminals.

I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. There was already an attempt to demonstrate that anti-trust laws were needed to protect you in this thread, and it fell through because it wasn't based on what really happened. Have another go.


Employment is slavery; you serve someone else's interests

And they serve yours, by paying you. And if you don't like the deal you've negotiated, there are other employers. Slaves don't get to resign.


, and pay taxes to the gang in power (the government).

Oh, I'm all for tax cuts. Communists aren't.


Even if you're spiritual about it like the Catholics are, and appreciate intellectually the significance of 'service', you're still indebted to and a subject to the will of another.

They're subject to your will in a free market too.

'Trade' is simply the exchange of one lesser economic value (the servant) for another greater one (the master). Master always wins in the big fix.

That's a strange way of saying 'it's not fair that I don't make the same amount of money as Bill Gates'. Well.. it is fair. It's fair because he's created an organisation that's producing something that millions of people want to use, and you haven't.
He can't force to work for him, or buy his products. The state does though.


I shouldn't have to offer something, anything, to anyone to 'live'.

To not do so is to be a parasite.


I am a sovereign sentient and sapient being; I deserve to have my will done.

No you don't.


I can provide for myself only at the expense of another; that is the CAPITALIST way. I find this morally repugnant and worthless, frankly, and will not be sad to see the (soon coming) end of it all.

It will not end. The only way you will escape from having to earn a living is to live on welfare (parasite on the labour of others), get yourself put in prison where the food and lodgings are free (ditto, but even more stupid) or die.

Adjust to it and reach adulthood.


Well pardon me for saying so, but it sure feels like it does...

That's your problem, communism is just your way of trying to make it everybody elses.

[flyermay]

There was already an attempt to demonstrate that anti-trust laws were needed to protect you in this thread, and it fell through because it wasn't based on what really happened.

:D I would love to read it (petty it just exists in your imagination). :D

Maybe posting this again can help you realise how deluded you are:

“There are various ways in which an unregulated market may fail to produce an ideal state of affairs. The main sources of market failure are monopoly, externalities, and income distribution.”
Source: The Oxford dictionary of Economics

[foobar]

:D I would love to read it

It's the bit where Microsoft is alleged to have been prevented from wiping out all their browser competition by anti-trust law despite there being competition in the browser market right from the start, without recourse to said regulations for years.


“There are various ways in which an unregulated market may fail to produce an ideal state of affairs. The main sources of market failure are monopoly, externalities, and income distribution.”
Source: The Oxford dictionary of Economics

This is what left-leaning economists and political scientists think. It's not what other schools of economics think and it's not what I think.

[flyermay]

It's the bit where Microsoft is alleged to have been prevented from wiping out all their browser competition by anti-trust law despite there being competition in the browser market right from the start, without recourse to said regulations for years.

The case is that Microsoft has been taken to court in many occasions for the same reason; and not only because of the browsers (i.e. the media player's codecs).


This is what left-leaning economists and political scientists think. It's not what other schools of economics think and it's not what I think.

I heard that some economists agree with you, but they are just a tiny minority, and none have any real evidences to support their claims.

[foobar]

The case is that Microsoft has been taken to court in many occasions for the same reason; and not only because of the browsers (i.e. the media player's codecs).

I've already explained to you that competitors existed before the cases, and the competitors weren't created by the cases. You can't kill a free project by undercutting it. You're attributing Microsoft's lack of monopoly to legal action, when it was never the case.


I heard that some economists agree with you, but they are just a tiny minority, and none have any real evidences to support their claims.

Friedman, Hayek? Nobel Prize laureates?

Read more widely.

[zero1]

Oh, I'm all for tax cuts. Communists aren't.

:rolleyes:

Dear oh dear. You clearly haven't a clue, do you?

There is no taxation in real communism. :(

That's your problem, communism is just your way of trying to make it everybody elses.

Au contraire, it is about making sure no-one else has to have the same problem.

In any case, I'm an Anarchist, not a 'communist' in the sense that you mean.

Communism is an ideal which has not yet been achieved since recorded history began, and is bound up in ideations of the afterlife (ie. another world). But it is the ultimate goal of the Greater Good.

(The rest of your post was unremarkable, so I didn't quote it all. :))

best,

Z1

[foobar]

:rolleyes:

Dear oh dear. You clearly haven't a clue, do you?

There is no taxation in real communism. :(

That's because your 'real' communism doesn't exist and never will.
It's a fantasy.


Au contraire, it is about making sure no-one else has to have the same problem.

You can't free people from labour by just regulating that they 'share'. They'll end up having to work harder for a lower standard of living, as seen in history where it's been tried.


In any case, I'm an Anarchist, not a 'communist' in the sense that you mean.

Oh so you don't want to regulate against free trade ? Jolly good. For a minute there I thought you were espousing that people be forbidden (by some form of law, enforced somehow) from offering property in exchange for labour in free negotation between two parties.. which would be a very odd thing for an anarchist to believe in.


Communism is an ideal which has not yet been achieved since recorded history began, and is bound up in ideations of the afterlife (ie. another world). But it is the ultimate goal of the Greater Good.

It's a unobtainable fantasy that ignores real world economics and human limitations.

[zero1]

That's because your 'real' communism doesn't exist and never will. It's a fantasy.

It will, when a viable economic model for it is established by a process of change and present human limitations are cast off via technology.

You can't free people from labour by just regulating that they 'share'. They'll end up having to work harder for a lower standard of living, as seen in history where it's been tried.

The Essene communes, the Kibbutz system in Israel, the Cuban Revolution; all came close though.

Besides, freeing people from labour is not the same thing as freeing them from the need for/to labour. Machines could conceivably do that in years to come, via the Singularity...

Oh so you don't want to regulate against free trade ? Jolly good. For a minute there I thought you were espousing that people be forbidden (by some form of law, enforced somehow) from offering property in exchange for labour in free negotation between two parties.. which would be a very odd thing for an anarchist to believe in.

You've lost me there. It seems to be a bit of a straw-man really, it's nothing like what I was saying or meant..(?)

It's a unobtainable fantasy that ignores real world economics and human limitations.

See above reply to first quote.

[foobar]

It will, when a viable economic model for it is established by a process of change and present human limitations are cast off via technology.

With technology sufficiently advanced you won't be able to tell the difference between highly advanced capitalism and idealised communism, it's how we get from here to there that's for our generation to worry about.


The Essene communes

That's voluntary communism within a capitalist society. I have no disagreements whatsoever with voluntary communism.

the Kibbutz system in Israel

It's subsidised by the fruits of a capitalist economy.


the Cuban Revolution

Ask yourself this about the Cuban revolution... We're all aware of images of people fleeing Cuba at great risk to their lives in order to escape Castros communist paradise...

Why aren't their people heading the other way, trying to get in? Doesn't that suggest it's perhaps not as nice a place to live as the big evil capitalist US of A?


Besides, freeing people from labour is not the same thing as freeing them from the need for/to labour.

The need for labour is the reason we are offered wages for it. We're all entrepeneurs really, every last one of us. It's a case of navigating the market intelligently.


Machines could conceivably do that in years to come, via the Singularity...

Yes. Well, they already do to quite a degree. Just consider all the little daily chores which you're no longer required to perform to say.. have drinkable water, or heat your home.

[zero1]

With technology sufficiently advanced you won't be able to tell the difference between highly advanced capitalism and idealised communism, it's how we get from here to there that's for our generation to worry about.

I'm inclined to agree with you there, certainly.

That's voluntary communism within a capitalist society. I have no disagreements whatsoever with voluntary communism.

OK. Perhaps everyone will come to their senses then, and voluntarily institute Global Communism in its perfected ideal state. But don't hold out hope for this

It's subsidised by the fruits of a capitalist economy.

The Kibbutz system could surive without subsidies or the government, though.

Ask yourself this about the Cuban revolution... We're all aware of images of people fleeing Cuba at great risk to their lives in order to escape Castros communist paradise...

Why aren't their people heading the other way, trying to get in? Doesn't that suggest it's perhaps not as nice a place to live as the big evil capitalist US of A?

Their all going the other way for McDonalds, Oprah and XBox360's. Somehow these good, well-fed and healthy communists fall asleep you see, and begin once again to believe the American Dream; they harken for glory days of yore when the poor starved and the rich lived lives of casinos and prostitutes. Ah, well; such is fallen human nature.

The need for labour is the reason we are offered wages for it. We're all entrepeneurs really, every last one of us. It's a case of navigating the market intelligently.

I'm intelligent enough, but market-averse. I feel a vicious rage coming on when I have to endure the misery of selling my-self to others for coin.

Yes. Well, they already do to quite a degree. Just consider all the little daily chores which you're no longer required to perform to say.. have drinkable water, or heat your home

Indeed.

A very good post, Foobar. Thank you. :)

[foobar]

OK. Perhaps everyone will come to their senses then, and voluntarily institute Global Communism in its perfected ideal state. But don't hold out hope for this

Exactly, they won't. That's why if you really want to live in a communist society, you've got a choice between building a voluntary commune that's able to make peace with and accept that most of the culture around it will still have private property and engage in trade.. or.. threatening people with violence to force them to comply with your desire for total global communism like Luciferhorus does (not that I take him seriously).


The Kibbutz system could surive without subsidies or the government, though.

Could it really? That's doubtful. Most such experiments in other countries haven't lasted very long without subsidy.


Their all going the other way for McDonalds, Oprah and XBox360's. Somehow these good, well-fed and healthy communists fall asleep you see, and begin once again to believe the American Dream; they harken for glory days of yore when the poor starved and the rich lived lives of casinos and prostitutes. Ah, well; such is fallen human nature.

Where are the capitalists falling asleep and going to Cuba though?

Mass Communism is this dream which can't really be implemented, and attempting to do so lowers everybody's living standards for economic reasons.
It's not long after this becomes apparent that communist states turn into tyrannies as the ruling dictator or oligarchy desperately try to prevent the citizens leaving for greener (capitalist) pastures or dissent spreading internally as people realise that this communism thing really isn't all it's cracked up to be compared to freerer economies.


I feel a vicious rage coming on when I have to endure the misery of selling my-self to others for coin.

You aren't selling yourself, you're offering the service of your labour in return for what you want. The trick is to find something that other people are willing to pay for that you don't dislike doing.

[kasalt]

Exactly, they won't. That's why if you really want to live in a communist society, you've got a choice between building a voluntary commune that's able to make peace with and accept that most of the culture around it will still have private property and engage in trade.. or.. threatening people with violence to force them to comply with your desire for total global communism like Luciferhorus does...

Great points. I'd like to post this quote in relation to it:How can we understand all this killing by communists? It is the marriage of an absolutist ideology with the absolute power. Communists believed that they knew the truth, absolutely. They believed that they knew through Marxism what would bring about the greatest human welfare and happiness. And they believed that power, the dictatorship of the proletariat, must be used to tear down the old feudal or capitalist order and rebuild society and culture to realize this utopia. Nothing must stand in the way of its achievement. Government--the Communist Party--was thus above any law. All institutions, cultural norms, traditions, and sentiments were expendable. And the people were as though lumber and bricks, to be used in building the new world.

The irony of this is that communism in practice, even after decades of total control, did not improve the lot of the average person, but usually made their living conditions worse than before the revolution. It is not by chance that the greatest famines have occurred within the Soviet Union (about 5,000,000 dead during 1921-23 and 7,000,000 from 1932-3) and communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from 1959-61). In total almost 55,000,000 people died in various communist famines and associated diseases, a little over 10,000,000 of them from democidal famine. This is as though the total population of Turkey, Iran, or Thailand had been completely wiped out. And that something like 35,000,000 people fled communist countries as refugees, as though the countries of Argentina or Columbia had been totally emptied of all their people, was an unparalleled vote against the utopian pretensions of Marxism-Leninism.

But communists could not be wrong. After all, their knowledge was scientific, based on historical materialism, an understanding of the dialectical process in nature and human society, and a materialist (and thus realistic) view of nature. Marx has shown empirically where society has been and why, and he and his interpreters proved that it was destined for a communist end. No one could prevent this, but only stand in the way and delay it at the cost of more human misery. Those who disagreed with this world view and even with some of the proper interpretations of Marx and Lenin were, without a scintilla of doubt, wrong. After all, did not Marx or Lenin or Stalin or Mao say that. . . . In other words, communism was like a fanatical religion. It had its revealed text and chief interpreters. It had its priests and their ritualistic prose with all the answers. It had a heaven, and the proper behavior to reach it. It had its appeal to faith. And it had its crusade against nonbelievers.

What made this secular religion so utterly lethal was its seizure of all the state's instrument of force and coercion and their immediate use to destroy or control all independent sources of power, such as the church, the professions, private businesses, schools, and, of course, the family. The result is what we see in Table 1:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF
Source: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

[luciferhorus]

How can we understand all this killing by communists? It is the marriage of an absolutist ideology with the absolute power.
...... Nothing must stand in the way of its achievement. Government--the Communist Party--was thus above any law.

Almost all of that 'killing' was by totalitarian Marxist regimes; as I argue in the response below, the Anarchists have very little blood on their robes, apart from the blood of Franco's fascists, however the future world will be stained with the blood of the statists and Capitalists in the wars and revolutions to come; that is entirely justifiable since the statists and Capitalists are themselves entirely militant and armed with weapons of mass destruction which they are entirely willing to use to defend their Capitalist, imperialist, state terrorist, narco-terrorist regimes.

Capitalist Holocaust.

Starvation and malnutriation are occurring throughout Africa, while Capitalist farmers are exporting food for Capital in order to fill the supermaket shelves of Christendom in the First World, where more than half the population suffers from obesity, while children are starving and malnourished in the regions which export food to fatten the First World Christians.

15 million people die every year due to the effects of poverty; half of them children; this is just deaths, a quantity, a statistic; it does not account for unquantifiable human suffering, malnutrition, slavery and sex slavery; misery has no statistical graph; thus the defenders of Capital bear the moral weight of this suffering; thus are their robes dipped in the blood of human misery and suffering.

The Straw Man Argument: the Last Cry of the Desparate.

I refer you to my previous responses on 'Communism' to Theolonious (whose American education apparently has convinced him that Cambodia is a nation of black Africans).I am not a Marxist, despite any ideological similarities, and therefore raising criticisms against Marxist governments and associating them with me is simply a straw man argument (i.e., you are arguing against a figment of your imagination).

There are numerous Marxist duscussion groups on the Internet where you may raise such issues with them.

However, if you try your 'straw man' argument on Anarchist forums, you will probably be showered with a torrent of abuse, since Anarchists are anti-Marxists; indeed every year without fail at the Anarchist bookfair in London, the Marxists protest outside. In fact, a few years ago one of the Marxist leaders of the protest told me that in a revolutionary scenario, they would 'shoot the Anarchists' first; so much for the solidarity of the Left.

No matter how many times I make this argument on this forum; Thelonious continues with his anti-Marxist positions and relates it to myself, an Anarchist; this form of foolishness is obviously infectious and you are simply utlising the same strategy; this is a cry of desparation by Thelonious and yourself, and I am rather tired having to make the same response, so I will save this response on my hard drive and I may post it whenever such a 'Staw Man' is raised again. As they say 'It takes a fool to debate with a fool; 'I am not amused by such childish methods of debate and I tired of repeating the same response.

If you are unable to construct a proper argument against Anarchism, I refer you to my essay Summa Dialectica. On Argument. On what is argument and what is not. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66751, otherwise might I suggest you find a children's playground where your debating opponents will be more 'on your level.'


Theolonious and Kasalt as defenders of Nazism

For example, to further explain the debating tactics of the 'straw man,' since the Nazi revolution was financed by American Capital, if I were to accuse Kasalt and Thelonious of being defenders of Nazism, simply because they are defenders of 'Capital,' this would not be as much of a 'straw man,' as the association of Marxist governments with Anarchists (since Anarchists are anti-Marxists), since Nazism is a product of Capital; you may complain and state that you are not defenders of Nazism, but by default if you defend the Capitalist system, Capital is power, and those who have Capital are free to fund wars, military coups, palace revolutions etc., such as the Nazi revolution.



Marxism and Anarchism.

Marx was originally 'converted' to Communism during his stay in Paris by the French Anarchists and in particular by his older mentor Proudhon; Marx in no way plagiarised Proudhon's writings; it was an entirely understood that he 'added' to them. Marxism is essentially Anarchist Communism with four basic 'additions' or 'amendments;'

1: The State.

While Anarchist philosophers consider all forms of statism to be 'tyranny' and unnaceptable, Marx insisted that the dicatorship of Capital should be replaced with an allegedly temporary dictatorship of the proletariat.

2: Dialectical Materialism

While Anarchists consider the priesthood of organised religion to be Archons (tyrants, lawmakers), Anarchism is a political philosophy and not a form of metaphysics; whereas Marxism is a materialistic perspective and has the addition of 'atheism,' as opposed merely to opposition to organised religion; to dictate what individuals must or must not believe with regards to metaphysics has no place in a purely scientific political and economic philosophy; thus there are atheist Anarchists, agnostic Anarchists, Christian Anarchists and Anarchists who espouse numerous New Aeon forms of metaphysics thus we only have a common 'political philosophy;' in an Anarchist world people would be free to discuss metaphysics and 'beliefs' in genreal without the imposition of a religous police or any form of organised religion or priesthood.


3: Property.

Marx held that his new state Capitalist government would 'own' all property and whereas Anarchism has nothing to do with any form of government ownership of property; rather all property would be collectively and publicly owned by and 'shared' by the members of a collective

4: State Capitalism.

Marx suggested that his 'dictatorship' should introduce a system of labour vouchers, which is simply a new form of Capital, whereas Anarchism has nothing to do with any form of Capital, labour vouchers, bartering, or tokens. It is a moneyless and entirely non-Capitalist, non-bartering system.

Other than this, Anarchists in general tend to concur with Marx's 'Labour Theory of Value,' and his general critique and analysis of Capital, including the necessity for armed revolution, for the simple reason that Marxism 'is' extracted from Anarchist thought, but with the addition of the above four positions which turns Proudhon and Bakunin on their heads and is thus 'Anti-Anarchist'.

'The abolition of the state, by all means necessary'

Revolution by the 'Rod of Iron' and by fire, plague and poisoned waters.

The militant Capitalists employ a 'by all means necessary' and 'the end justifies the means' approach to Capitalist revolution and thus anti-Capitalist and anti-State revolution 'by all means necessary' is a required response, as is 'the ends justifies the means,' to end the incredible suffering of the billions of people in the Capitalist system.

Lenin argued that if half the world has to die in order that the other half could live in Communist Paradise, that it would be justifiable.

Currenly the Capitalists are willing to subject the world to poverty, slavery and economic holocaust in order that they can live in economic heaven; thus revolution by all means necessary is simply a bloody dialectical response to Capitalist revolution and imperialism 'by all means necessary.'

Robes dipped in Blood

Thus I refer to Lenin's justification for war and revolution, as much as I do not share his ideology.........rivers of blood shall and must flow, but it shall and must be the blood of the Capitalists, not of their victims who in time shall and must inherit the earth.

Anarchist Communism is a militant ideology, however the blood that stains the robes of the Anarchists from past history is rather insignificant in comparison to that of the Capitalists and Christians; it is rather only the blood of the fascists of the Spanish civil war, but in the future world, since we demand the abolition of all states, we fully take upon ourselves the karmic weight of all the future wars and revolutions against the evils of 1: tyranny (government), 2: Capital, 3: private property and 4: organised religion, no matter how much blood is shed; revolution against militant Capitalists and statists cannot be fought by pacifist means.

Rivers of Blood shall Flow. Blood and Fire.

Blood and sacrifice will be demanded; the Capitalists and tyrants cannot be expected to simply surrender their kingdom without a fight.



LL

Lucifer
Anarchist Communism
Liberation of the Motherland (Eden).

No mercy on they who deserve none.

________________


These words of prophecy by Bakunin were all written decades before the first Marxist revolution; highlighting the importance of 'correct politics' prior to revolution.

What follows is the standard Anarchist position on Marxist totalitarianism.






Marxism Freedom and the State (extract).
Michael Bakunin.


http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/bakunin/marxnfree.html






................It is the out and out cult of the State. I have no need to prove it in the case of Bismarck, the proofs are there. From head to foot he is a State's man and nothing but a State's man. But neither do I believe that I shall have need of too great efforts to prove that it is the same with Marx. He loves government to such a degree that he even wanted to institute one in the International Workingmen's Association; and he worships power so much that he wanted to impose and still means to-day to impose his dictatorship on us. It seems to me that that is sufficient to characterise his personal attitude. But his Socialist and political programme is a very faithful expression of it. The supreme objective of all his efforts, as is proclaimed to us by the fundamental statutes of his party in Germany, is the establishment of the great People's State (Volksstaat).

But whoever says State, necessarily says a particular limited State, doubtless comprising, if it is very large, many different peoples and countries, but excluding still more. For unless he is dreaming of the Universal State as did Napoleon and the Emperor Charles the Fifth, or as the Papacy dreamed of the Universal Church, Marx, in spite of all the international ambition which devours him to-day, will have, when the hour of the realisation of his dreams has sounded for him--if it ever does sound--he will have to content himself with governing a single State and not several States at once. Consequently, who ever says State says, a State, and whoever says a State affirms by that the existence of several States, and whoever says several States, immediately says: competition, jealousy, truceless and endless war. The simplest logic as well as all history bear witness to it.


Any State, under pain of perishing and seeing itself devoured by neighbouring States, must tend towards complete power, and, having become powerful, it must embark on a career of conquest, so that it shall not be itself conquered; for two powers similar and at the same time foreign to each other could not co-exist without trying to destroy each other. Whoever says conquest, says conquered peoples, enslaved and in bondage, under whatever form or name it may be.

It is in the nature of the State to break the solidarity of the human race and, as it were, to deny humanity. The State cannot preserve itself as such in its integrity and in all its strength except it sets itself up as supreme and absolute be-all and end-all, at least for its own citizens, or to speak more frankly, for its own subjects, not being able to impose itself as such on the citizens of other States unconquered by it. From that there inevitably results a break with human, considered as univesrsal, morality and with universal reason, by the birth of State morality and reasons of State. The principle of political or State morality is very simple. The State, being the supreme objective, everything that is favourable to the development of its power is good; all that is contrary to it, even if it were the most humane thing in the world, is bad. This morality is called Patriotism. The International is the negation of patriotism and consequently the negation of the State. If therefore Marx and his friends of the German Socialist Democratic Party should succeed in introducing the State principle into our programme, they would kill the International.

The State, for its own preservation, must necessarily be powerful as regards foreign affairs; but if it is so as regards foreign affairs, it will infallibly be so as regards home affairs. Every State, having to let itself be inspired and directed by some particular morality, conformable to the particular conditions of its existence, by a morality which is a restriction and consequently a negation of human and universal morality, must keep watch that all its subjects, in their thoughts and above all in their acts, are inspired also only by the principles of this patriotic or particular morality, and that they remain deaf to the teachings of pure or universally human morality. From that there results the necessity for a State censorship; too great liberty of thought and opinions being, as Marx considers, very reasonably too from his eminently political point of view, incompatible with that unanimity of adherence demanded by the security of the State. That that in reality is Marx's opinion is sufficiently proved by the attempts which he made to introduce censorship into the International, under plausible pretexts, and covering it with a mask.

But however vigilant this censorship may be, even if the State were to take into its own hands exclusively education and all the instruction of the people, as Mazzini wished to do, and as Marx wishes to do to-day the State can never be sure that prohibited and dangerous thoughts may not slip in and be smuggled somehow into the consciousness of the population that it governs. Forbidden fruit has such an attraction for men, and the demon of revolt, that eternal enemy of the State, awakens so easily in their hearts when they are not sufficiently stupified, that neither this education nor this instruction, nor even the censorship, sufficiently guarantee the tranquillity of the State. It must still have a police, devoted agents who watch over and direct, secretly and unobtrusively, the current of the peoples' opinions and passions. We have seen that Marx himself is so convinced of this necessity, that he believed he should fill with his secret agents all the regions of the International and above all, Italy, France, and Spain. Finally, however perfect may be, from the point of view of the preservation of the State, the organsation of education and instruction for the people, of censorship and the police, the State cannot be secure in its existence while it does not have, to defend it against its enemies at home, an armed force. The State is government from above downwards of an immense number of men, very different from the point of view of the degree of their culture, the nature of the countries or localities that they inhabit, the occupation they follow, the interests and the aspirations directing them--the State is the government of all these by some or other minority; this minority, even if it were a thousand times elected by universal suffrage and controlled in its acts by popular institutions, unless it were endowed with the omniscience, omnipresence and the omnipotence which the theologians attribute to God, it is impossible that it could know and foresee the needs, or satisfy with an even justice the most legitimate and pressing interests in the world. There will always be discontented people because there will always be some who are sacrificed.


.............


Slavery can Change its form and its name--its basis remains the same. This basis is expressed by the words: being a slave is being forced to work for other people--as being a master is to live on the labour of other people. In ancient times, as to-day in Asia and Africa, slaves were simply called slaves. In the Middle Ages, they took the name of "serfs", to-day they are called "wage-earners". The position of these latter is much more honourable and less hard than that of slaves, but they are none the less forced by hunger as well as by the political and social institutions, to maintain by very hard work the absolute or relative idleness of others. Consequently, they are slaves. And, in general, no State, either anacient or modern, has ever been able, or ever will be able to do without the forced labour of the masses, whether wage-earners or slaves, as a principal and absolutely necessary basis of the liberty and culture of the political class: the citizens.


..............................


it is for that reason that we fight the Marxian theories to the death, convinced that if they could triumph throughout the International, they would certainly not fail to kill at least its spirit everywhere, as they have already done in very great'part in the countries just mentioned.

The instinctive passion of the masses for economic equality is so great that if they could hope to receive it from the hands of despotism, they would indubitably and without much reflection do as they have often done before, and deliver themselves to despotism. Happily, historic experience has been of some service even with the masses. To-day, they are beginning everywhere to understand that no despotism has nor can have, either the will or the power to give them economic equality. The programme of the International is very happily explicit on this question. The emancipation of the toilers cart be the work only of the toilers themselves.

Is it not astonishing that Marx has believed it possible to graft on this nevertheless so precise declaration, which he probably drafted himself, his scientific Socialism? That is to say, the organisation and the government of the new society by Socialistic scientists and professors--the worst of all despotic government!
_______________________

"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed,
law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached
at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded,
by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the
virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every
transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured,
numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented,
forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of
public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed
under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted
from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then at the slightest resistance, the
first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harrassed,
hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned,
judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed, and to
crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is
government; that is its justice; that is its morality."

P. J. Proudhon, _General Idea of the Revolution in the
Nineteenth Century_

- * -

If I had to answer the following question: _What is slavery?_
and if in a single word I were to reply: it is murder, my
thought would have been understood right from the start. I
would not need to speak for long, to demonstrate that the
power to deprive a man of thought, will, and personality, is
a power of life and death, and that to enslave a man is to
murder him. Why then to that other question: _What is
property?_ could I not answer likewise: _it is theft_,
without the certainty of being misunderstood, though this
second proposition be but the first, transformed?

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, _What Is Property?_[/QUOTE]


________________


The following is from:

http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
(extract only)

http://static.globalissues.org/i/poverty/wdi-2008/consumption-inequality-2005-pie.png

http://www.michaelbeard.com/images/starving_child-sudan2.jpg

More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.

The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.

According to UNICEF, 25,000 children die each day due to poverty.
And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”

Around 27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

If current trends continue, the Millennium Development Goals target of halving the proportion of underweight children will be missed by 30 million children, largely because of slow progress in Southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.

Infectious diseases continue to blight the lives of the poor across the world. An estimated 40 million people are living with HIV/AIDS (nb manufactured in the US), with 3 million deaths in 2004. Every year there are 350–500 million cases of malaria, with 1 million fatalities: Africa accounts for 90 percent of malarial deaths and African children account for over 80 percent of malaria victims worldwide.Source 9

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/image/funny/funny_1022.jpg

Water problems affect half of humanity:

•Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.

•Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.

•More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.

•Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.

•1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)

http://www.ourworldfoundation.org.uk/0021172.jpg

•Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea

•The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.

•Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.

•Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.

•To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit.… The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions … are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.

http://lifewithhammy.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/starvation.jpg

Number of children in the world
2.2 billion

Number in poverty
1 billion (every second child)

Shelter, safe water and health
For the 1.9 billion children from the developing world, there are:


•640 million without adequate shelter (1 in 3)

•400 million with no access to safe water (1 in 5)

•270 million with no access to health services (1 in 7)C

hildren out of education worldwide121 million

Survival for children
Worldwide,

•10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (same as children population in France, Germany, Greece and Italy)

•1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation

Health of children
Worldwide,

•2.2 million children die each year because they are not immunized

•15 million children orphaned due to HIV/AIDS (similar to the total children population in Germany or United Kingdom)


Rural areas account for three in every four people living on less than US$1 a day and a similar share of the world population suffering from malnutrition. However, urbanization is not synonymous with human progress. Urban slum growth is outpacing urban growth by a wide margin.

Approximately half the world’s population now live in cities and towns. In 2005, one out of three urban dwellers (approximately 1 billion people) was living in slum conditions.


In 2005, the wealthiest 20% of the world accounted for 76.6% of total private consumption. The poorest fifth just 1.5%:

The poorest 10% accounted for just 0.5% and the wealthiest 10% accounted for 59% of all the consumption:

1.6 billion people — a quarter of humanity — live without electricity:

The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the 41 Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (567 million people) is less than the wealth of the world’s 7 richest people combined.

World gross domestic product (world population approximately 6.5 billion) in 2006 was $48.2 trillion in 2006.

•The world’s wealthiest countries (approximately 1 billion people) accounted for $36.6 trillion dollars (76%).

•The world’s billionaires — just 497 people (approximately 0.000008% of the world’s population) — were worth $3.5 trillion (over 7% of world GDP).

•Low income countries (2.4 billion people) accounted for just $1.6 trillion of GDP (3.3%)

•Middle income countries (3 billion people) made up the rest of GDP at just over $10 trillion (20.7%).Source 19

The world’s low income countries (2.4 billion people) account for just 2.4% of world exports

The total wealth of the top 8.3 million people around the world “rose 8.2 percent to $30.8 trillion in 2004, giving them control of nearly a quarter of the world’s financial assets.”

In other words, about 0.13% of the world’s population controlled 25% of the world’s financial assets in 2004

For every $1 in aid a developing country receives, over $25 is spent on debt repayment.

51 percent of the world’s 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations.

The wealthiest nation on Earth has the widest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation.

The poorer the country, the more likely it is that debt repayments are being extracted directly from people who neither contracted the loans nor received any of the money

In 1960, the 20% of the world’s people in the richest countries had 30 times the income of the poorest 20% — in 1997, 74 times as much.

An analysis of long-term trends shows the distance between the richest and poorest countries was about:

•3 to 1 in 1820
•11 to 1 in 1913
•35 to 1 in 1950
•44 to 1 in 1973
•72 to 1 in 1992

“Approximately 790 million people in the developing world are still chronically undernourished, almost two-thirds of whom reside in Asia and the Pacific.”

For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years [of the current form of globalization, from 1980 - 2000] have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades [1960 - 1980]. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equal groups, according to what level the countries had achieved by the start of the period (1960 or 1980). Among the findings:

•Growth: The fall in economic growth rates was most pronounced and across the board for all groups or countries.
•Life Expectancy: Progress in life expectancy was also reduced for 4 out of the 5 groups of countries, with the exception of the highest group (life expectancy 69-76 years).
•Infant and Child Mortality: Progress in reducing infant mortality was also considerably slower during the period of globalization (1980-1998) than over the previous two decades.
•Education and literacy: Progress in education also slowed during the period of globalization.Source 29
A mere 12 percent of the world’s population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World.Source 30

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0409/images/stoddart/Sudan2.jpg

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Cosmetics in the United States 8
Ice cream in Europe 11
Perfumes in Europe and the United States 12
Pet foods in Europe and the United States 17
Business entertainment in Japan 35
Cigarettes in Europe 50
Alcoholic drinks in Europe 105
Narcotics drugs in the world 400
Military spending in the world 780

http://thegrandfinale.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/starving_child_carried.jpg

And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic social services in all developing countries:

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Basic education for all 6
Water and sanitation for all 9
Reproductive health for all women 12
Basic health and nutrition 13



The new poverty line of $1.25 a day was recently announced by the World Bank (in 2008). For many years before that it had been $1 a day. But the $1 a day used then would be $1.45 a day now if just inflation was accounted for.

...it appears that much of the poverty reduction in the last couple of decades almost exclusively comes from China:

•China’s poverty rate fell from 85% to 15.9%, or by over 600 million people
•China accounts for nearly all the world’s reduction in poverty
•Excluding China, poverty fell only by around 10%


The use of the poverty line of $1 a day had long come under criticism for seeming arbitrary and using poor quality and limited data thus risking an underestimate of poverty. The $1.25 a day level is accompanied with some additional explanations and reasoning, including that it is a common level found amongst the poorest countries, and that $2.50 represents a typical poverty level amongst many more developing countries.

The $10 dollar a day figure above is close to poverty levels in the US, so is provided here to give a more global perspective to these numbers, although the World Bank has felt it is not a meaningful number for the poorest because they are unfortunately unlikely to reach that level any time soon.

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/jesus_bush.gif


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[foobar]

Thank you for giving some specific differences between your views and Marxism below, I will question more deeply.


While Anarchist philosophers consider all forms of statism to be 'tyranny' and unnaceptable, Marx insisted that the dicatorship of Capital should be replaced with an allegedly temporary dictatorship of the proletariat.

Ok, so instead of the temporary transitional bureacracy Marx thought would be necessary, your view is that you could wipe out all the 'bad guys' in a nuclear conflagration and the survivors would spontaneously organise themselves into anarchist communes?

Leaving aside the moral problem of mass murder, I don't believe this would be the case. First of all, you'd have a very hard time identifying the 'good' and the 'bad' as everybody in the west is forced to engage in some form of capitalist activity in order to live. Even the gentlest and most altruistic state-employed social worker or teacher draws their wages from money confiscated from capitalists by the state, and may temporarily step into the role of 'capitalist master' whenever they pay for goods or services, such as food, or the labour of a plumber.

Even if you could identify them neatly, you can't assume that the survivors would all want to live in an anarchist commune. What then? Kill them too?


Anarchist world people would be free to discuss metaphysics and 'beliefs' in genreal without the imposition of a religous police or any form of organised religion or priesthood.

Ok, you don't want to enforce state atheism, just destroy hierarchial priesthoods, fine. No inconsistency to pick at there.



Marx held that his new state Capitalist government would 'own' all property and whereas Anarchism has nothing to do with any form of government ownership of property; rather all property would be collectively and publicly owned by and 'shared' by the members of a collective

To be fair, Marx thought this state was a temporary necessity, whereas you seek to bypass it with one big flash of instant Sunshine. I'd refer you to my earlier question about how you could be sure that the survivors would be willing to volunteer to join an anarchist commune?


4: State Capitalism.
Marx suggested that his 'dictatorship' should introduce a system of labour vouchers, which is simply a new form of Capital, whereas Anarchism has nothing to do with any form of Capital, labour vouchers, bartering, or tokens. It is a moneyless and entirely non-Capitalist, non-bartering system.

So you've killed all the 'bad guys' (whoever they are) and we'll assume that the survivors have spontaneously organised into anarchist communes.

Without prices, how is the value of an endeavour judged ? How are resources allocated?

There are some jobs which need doing which very few people would find personally fulfilling. If there's no pay involved, how would you persuade enough people to do all the boring or unpleasant but necessary jobs ?


Other than this, Anarchists in general tend to concur with Marx's 'Labour Theory of Value,' and his general critique and analysis of Capital, including the necessity for armed revolution, for the simple reason that Marxism 'is' extracted from Anarchist thought, but with the addition of the above four positions which turns Proudhon and Bakunin on their heads and is thus 'Anti-Anarchist'.

Marx's Labour theory of value is an economic nonsense because it attaches no value to risk of capital, and hence capital is hopelessly misallocated in real world marxist societies. This is why they're always so poor relative to their capitalist peers.


Lenin argued that if half the world has to die in order that the other half could live in Communist Paradise, that it would be justifiable.

That ought to be a clue that Lenin was a hateful nutter.

[flyermay]

Friedman, Hayek? Nobel Prize laureates?

Read more widely.

That's a huge list of... ONE

What about all the other Nobel Prize laureates, academics, economists and theoreticians that don't agree with him? Are you going to dismiss the opinion of all them and the lesson from history just because ONE guy has a new THEORY?

I understand that capitalism needs an escape goat to be blamed for its failure and constant crisis, but blaming the well justified regulations for it will not solve the problem.

[foobar]

That's a huge list of... ONE

Um.. no. There are 2 named people in the list.


What about all the other Nobel Prize laureates, academics, economists and theoreticians that don't agree with him? Are you going to dismiss the opinion of all them and the lesson from history just because ONE guy has a new THEORY?

I understand that capitalism needs an escape goat to be blamed for its failure and constant crisis, but blaming the well justified regulations for it will not solve the problem.

In your view. However, I have a different explanation for the crises of capitalism which has demonstrated greater predictive power, and that's why I trust it.

[flyermay]

Um.. no. There are 2 named people in the list.

Both co-authored the same work (and just got ONE noble price).

Eithere way:
the list has doubled if we count both, that makes a huge list of... TWO

In your view. However, I have a different explanation for the crises of capitalism which has demonstrated greater predictive power, and that's why I trust it.

Yes, and I will sure agree with you in the reasons for the past and current crisis; but those still the consequences of capitalism, nonetheless.

[foobar]

Both co-authored the same work (and just got ONE noble price).

Wrong again. They each won Nobel prizes for different works. You need to read economics more widely.


Eithere way:
the list has doubled if we count both, that makes a huge list of... TWO

They've only been awarding Nobel prizes in Economics since 1969.


Yes, and I will sure agree with you in the reasons for the past and current crisis; but those still the consequences of capitalism, nonetheless.

No they aren't. It's not inherent to capitalism that some well connected banks are granted the right to create money from nothing. You should take the time to actually read Hayek's work.

[flyermay]

Wrong again. They each won Nobel prizes for different works. You need to read economics more widely.

I would, but since the Hayek-Friedman hypothesis on economic and political freedom is no more than a utopian fantasy; why bother???

They've only been awarding Nobel prizes in Economics since 1969.

Time enough to populate your list beyond… TWO

No they aren't. It's not inherent to capitalism that some well connected banks are granted the right to create money from nothing. You should take the time to actually read Hayek's work.

Oh yes, that was surely the reason for the biggest crisis in history (the 1929’s crisis), still under the gold standard.

But that’s your problem; you just have a blind faith on a theory because someone’s book impressed you. My advice, before having such a blind faith on anyone, look at what the other side has to say (just to be fair to yourself).

[foobar]

I would, but since the Hayek-Friedman hypothesis on economic and political freedom is no more than a utopian fantasy; why bother???

Just out of interest, could you summarize what Hayek actually won his Nobel prize for? Just to check that you aren't, y'know, just pulling stuff out of the air without actually knowing what he had to say about economics.


Oh yes, that was surely the reason for the biggest crisis in history (the 1929’s crisis), still under the gold standard.

That was a result of government attempts to prevent recession. There was a credit crisis (caused by the federal reserve) earlier in the decade which quickly corrected itself without state intervention.


But that’s your problem; you just have a blind faith on a theory because someone’s book impressed you. My advice, before having such a blind faith on anyone, look at what the other side has to say (just to be fair to yourself).

I've read many economists. I'm impressed by what people of Hayek's school have to say because it predicted and explained what we've recently seen happen much more clearly and consistently. Considering your previous attempts to argue your case with all sorts of half understood and factually incorrect history, I really doubt you've studied this subject in much depth.

[flyermay]

Just out of interest, could you summarize what Hayek actually won his Nobel prize for? Just to check that you aren't, y'know, just pulling stuff out of the air without actually knowing what he had to say about economics.

Oh, I see, like you did yesterday!

That’s fine. Hayek got the Nobel prize in economics 1974 for his theory of business cycles and the effects of monetary and credit policies.

I've read many economists. I'm impressed by what people of Hayek's school have to say because it predicted and explained what we've recently seen happen much more clearly and consistently. Considering your previous attempts to argue your case with all sorts of half understood and factually incorrect history, I really doubt you've studied this subject in much depth.

Well, the prove is back there (I guess that neither Hayek nor Friedman explained it); so far you didn’t explain how is your proposal going to deal with the natural tendencies of the market to provoke: monopolies and cartels (and therefore ’market failure’), utilization of resources beyond sustainability, abuse of customer’s rights, and exploitation of the labour.

And just in case you try again, a simple denial of the facts will not work with me.

[flyermay]

And I would add something else: no one more than me would love to see a truly free market (free from governmental intervention). But given the current conditioning of the human race to be as greedy and selfish as possible (in part due to capitalism); I see absolutely no chance of it working.

There goes another utopia to my list...

[foobar]

That’s fine. Hayek got the Nobel prize in economics 1974 for his theory of business cycles and the effects of monetary and credit policies.


so far you didn’t explain how is your proposal going to deal with the natural tendencies of the market to provoke: monopolies and cartels (and therefore ’market failure’), utilization of resources beyond sustainability, abuse of customer’s rights, and exploitation of the labour.

I already have, go back and re-read.


And just in case you try again, a simple denial of the facts will not work with me.

Clearly. I'm not going to reply until you show evidence you've actually read my posts.

[flyermay]

I already have, go back and re-read.

No you didn't. For most part of your answers you engaged in contradictions and misinterpretations, but you failed to explain why you are so sure that unlegislated markets will not lead to: monopolies, over-exploitation and abuse (view that is widely accepted by academics).

And even though I explained why each of this cases will occur (with examples of each based on factual accounts), it is not for me to prove I'm right, but for you to prove I'm wrong (which you didn't). Stating that we live in 'Earth', would not need further explanation; as it is widely accepted as a fact. But, stating that we live in 'Mars' will need a detailed explanation, as nobody believes we do.

I'm not going to reply until you show evidence you've actually read my posts.
Resuming your posts:
Repeating that Microsoft is not a monopoly and that state-owned organisations are, does not prove in any way that an unregulated market will not lead to monopolies.

Saying that your grandparents had a reasonable salary when there was no minimum wages, doesn't also prove that there will be no abuse of labour.

And having confidence that the environment and customers will not suffer the consequences because businessmen will act responsibly is simply ludicrous.

Would you mind showing me when did you ever prove that your proposal works???

[luciferhorus]

Thank you for giving some specific differences between your views and Marxism below, I will question more deeply.
.

Well thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful response; your questions are all entirely appropriate and you have obviously given a great deal of thought to these issues.

I refer you to numerous Anarchist FAQ's (frequently asked questions), which you may 'Google' but I would also like to respond to you personally, since I have long pondered over these same questions.



Ok, so instead of the temporary transitional bureacracy Marx thought would be necessary, your view is that you could wipe out all the 'bad guys' in a nuclear conflagration and the survivors would spontaneously organise themselves into anarchist communes?

No.

I doubt it. The scientific and psychological basis of Anarchism (against the Archons / tyrants) is that it is human nature to confront the bully / dictator.

Bakunin stated that it was entirely counter-revolutionary to have a 'fixed' idea of the future world, but rather that we should just continue to rebel unceasingly against the current Archons until the product of the dialectical process emerges.

Criticism against the Archons / economic slavemasters is entirely natural; it is what we all do here on the David Icke forum, despite our many different counterproposals to the current situation; it is entirely in accord with human nature and thus a scientific process, but that is not to say that our counterproposals are all scientific, rather merely the process of criticising and resisting the current dictatorship of Capital.

Leaving aside the moral problem of mass murder, I don't believe this would be the case. First of all, you'd have a very hard time identifying the 'good' and the 'bad' as everybody in the west is forced to engage in some form of capitalist activity in order to live.

I don't know of a single European Anarchist or Communist (there are many flavours of this ideology) who does not have to 'pay' with Capital to survive.

'Everyone' on this forum is attempting to survive in Capitalism with limited resources; we are all on the global scale, 'middle class Capitalist citizens' debating alternatives.

There can be no shame in that since we are also 'victims' of Capitalism. Every European Communist is either a 'worker' who sells his labour, or a 'recipient' of socialist benefits; that should not be taken to imply that we 'believe' in the Capitalist system; on the contrary.

David Icke makes a very good living in Capitalism, yet he is entirely critical of Capitalism; similarly Marx was the son of a wealthy Jewish lawyer, the Anarchist Kropotkin was a Russian aristocrat, and Engels was (in 21st century terms) a millionaire factory owner; we all must by necessity live and survive in Capitalism, and it is better to thrive than to suffer, for the poorest person in the world in the Capitalist system, wishes not to suffer and to have Capital, that does not mean that this person believes that it is a fair and just system, and that they 'believe' in it.


Even the gentlest and most altruistic state-employed social worker or teacher draws their wages from money confiscated from capitalists by the state, and may temporarily step into the role of 'capitalist master' whenever they pay for goods or services, such as food, or the labour of a plumber.


Yes of course; I am also a school teacher; which is a profession I no longer practise, since I prefer the 'adult education' system of the Internet to a classroom of 20-30 children; I fully understand this process; I am also quite capable of enslaving the labour hours of the proletariate; I am only an amateur car mechanic, and thus I prefer to demand the labour hours of car mechanics, rather than bother with this myself; my current car mechanic earns around 1200 pounds a week, but it does not bother me if once or twice a year he takes an occasional 2-300 pounds from me; that is just the nature of Capitalism.


Even if you could identify them neatly, you can't assume that the survivors would all want to live in an anarchist commune. What then? Kill them too?

No. But what will you do when Capitalism falls apart? 'Communare' translated is just 'sharing.' I have a rather large 'allotment' where I grow cabbages, potatoes, carrots, and different varieties of flowers.

My girlfriend accidentally planted too may lettice plants. When I go out into my allotment, I see 200 lettice plants; try as I may, I cannot eat them; thus I predict that in the next few weeks, many of our neighbours will have lettice on their doorstep when they wake up in the morning; this is not terrorism; they will not be afraid; they will just buy some tomatoes and mix it all together and eat them.


Ok, you don't want to enforce state atheism, just destroy hierarchial priesthoods, fine. No inconsistency to pick at there.

I am a spiritualist, as was my mother, and as is my father; we can speak of metaphysics as brothers (and sisters) until the death of the human soul (this will not occur), but at the moment where you build a temple and refer to yourself as 'priest' and insist that your metaphyscial beliefs are superior to mine, it is only at that point where I will come and burn down your Church / Temple; but I will continue to give away vegetables.


To be fair, Marx thought this state was a temporary necessity, whereas you seek to bypass it with one big flash of instant Sunshine. I'd refer you to my earlier question about how you could be sure that the survivors would be willing to volunteer to join an anarchist commune?

I am entirely un-shure

So you've killed all the 'bad guys' (whoever they are) and we'll assume that the survivors have spontaneously organised into anarchist communes.

No I don't assume that.


Without prices, how is the value of an endeavour judged ? How are resources allocated?

A ton of lead in terms of labour hours will never be worth a ton of gold

There are some jobs which need doing which very few people would find personally fulfilling. If there's no pay involved, how would you persuade enough people to do all the boring or unpleasant but necessary jobs ?

Ok. This is a question which I recognise as an intelligent question.

Good for you. You have thought this through and you have realised that Communism depends on volunteer-ism.

Firstly let us debase this question.

Every day you shit and piss; as do I.

I would be the first to volunteer to spread your shit and piss all over my cabbages, since I understand organic chemistry and the fact that plants love nitrogen (most chemical fertizers from B&Q are rich in nitrogen).


I am speaking of gardening; but I also demand technology, and so do you; thus we demand silicone; you and I are silicone addicts; silicone is made out of 'sand' and thus I would demand that you go out on some beach or desert and dig up a kilo sand.


Your questions show an extremely advanced intellligence, and I am so happy to meet you.

I demand the conversion of sand into a computer chip, in order that I may speak to you at all.

I demand technological revolution and agricultural revolution.

These are my infallble demands; and I shall settle for nothing less than the sharing of agriculture and technology, since this is all possible in a Communist world, where most Communists are anti-primitivist and seek the 'Golden Dawn' of scientific / techonological / silicone revolution.

Let us (lettice) contine this converation.


All my love and light to you brother.

Luicfer.

[foobar]

Thank you LH.

My personal position, as you're probably aware from other posts is a mild form of the Libertarian variant of Capitalism. My definition of Capitalism may not be the same as yours, so that might cause some confusion between us. I'll try and explain it further.

Many of the economic cruelties I see around the world in my view don't arise from the basic concepts of private property or the freedom of individuals to trade their property, but from cleverly disguised transgressions of what people in the Freeman-on-the-land subforum would call 'Common Law'.

Fraudulent money creation from nothing. The lives of the young people in national armies being risked for the interests of a small politically-connected elite under the pretense of protecting the safety of the ordinary people of that nation. Sophisticated spins on the age old crimes of stealing, lying and murder, essentially.

I feel it's possible to have private property and the freedom to trade it without allowing these crimes to occur, but I understand that you may feel that I'm idealising the market, and that this quaint and honest view of a market place of individual property owners may inherently break down after a few generations of some enjoying even modestly greater than average success and passing the accrued wealth on to their children, and eventually the scions of great inhereted wealth will inevitably interfere in the political process to award themselves special exemptions and priviledges.

That's how we seem to have got from the fairly Libertarian Capitalism of, say, the post-revolutionary Americans to the Wall Street and Federal Reserve cartel of today, certainly.

But I'm very wary of taking away the property and trade rights of all to punish the cunning and well hidden criminality of a relatively small portion of the population.

A fair question at this point would be, 'why does foobar cling to this idea of private property and the right to trade it so firmly?, has he been brainwashed?'

It's because of my study of economics. Let me give you an example.

In your last post, you gave an instance of the marxian value theory. You pronounced a large quantity of lead to be worth more than a smaller quantity of gold (that may have a higher market price today) because there is greater human sweat and toil involved in extracting it.

On the face of it, it seems 'just', but I think it's a dangerous economic fallacy that in the long run doesn't serve the people you are clearly genuine about wishing to help. Let me use an example in extremis to explain why:-

There would be vast effort involved in making 10 billion solid bronze toilets, each with an individual portrait of one of the factory workers hand-etched into the bowl. If a commune of 20 people decide this is an excellent idea, a worthy artistic statement, and they go ahead and build them, are the toilets worth as much as a month of their time spent harvesting wheat or fixing electrical faults in the power grid?

Almost certainly not. Why?

Because value cannot be calculated neatly in advance as a function of the effort required in producing something, only the production cost. It also depends on demand, and the price is where these two forces meet and find balance. When price is less than cost of production, you know it's a waste of time unless you're willing to expend your own resources without return to make some kind of statement for personal satisfaction.

Without free-trade, we cannot know prices. Without prices, we very soon start misallocating production in quite serious ways on the scale of anything larger than a small tribal gathering of humans, because that's the scale that most of our modest intellects and ancient instincts can handle without recourse to numerical aids like prices and balance sheets.
Producing and distributing anti-biotics? or microprocessors? Not so succesful. And I don't want to live without these things.
Having had surgery to repair a knife injury under general anasthetic, I see the benefits of the complex, interlocking and large infrastructure required to produce and maintain the necessary technology.

This at core, is why large scale attempts at moneyless and priceless economics tend to break down, but why I'm perfectly fine both with the morality and practicality of small-scale voluntary communism.

I hope this makes some sense. I can dig out more sane sounding examples of this principle in operation from real history, if you like.

But basically my view is, yes the priviledged elite have done some right bastard things, but it wasn't the right to hold or trade property per se that caused it. It was a steady corruption of our legal and financial systems into something that any 18th Century American revolutionary (ardent free-trading low-tax capitalists) would recognise as a criminal, and we just need to
punish those crimes, and reset the system.

In fact, one thing that, from my perspective, has been particularly insidious about the recent 'credit crunch' panic (aside from the sickening looting of our public treasuries to make good the gambling debts of a few well-connected white-collar criminals), is that the basic freedom of a person to own things and trade has been attacked like never before (higher taxes to pay for the bailouts and more red-tape which the financial sector elite will help write and then glibly side-step around, but the poor chumps deciding how to try and provide themselves with a pension from their small investments won't have an inkling what's going on), whilst the tacit licence of top-tier banks to create money from nothing has gone largely uncommented upon and unchallenged in parliament or the courts.

[meksar]

Its all part of a Luciferian false resistance to this evilarchy, these anarchists will manage to indoctrinate easily mislead people into their way of thinking. The fact that i have seen posts which openly suggest that mass genocide of Christians/Muslims, tells me that its all childish bravado aimed at those who have fundamental problems with religion and scriptural doctrine. People need to understand that that religion and the occult are both as good as each other but at the same as bad as each other.

[meksar]

To be honest Luciferhorus and his "Luciferian liberation" will never succeed and if he lives long enough he will end up like this old twit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs

[nihil]

.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2485/weed.gif http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2485/weed.gif http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2485/weed.gif

.

[ladybird]

Thank you very much for thematising luciferhorus!

I do not understand why someone overtly worshipping satanism is allowed to spread his
attitude on this forum.

Is this a clear sign of utmost tolerance and democracy?

I don't get it.

.

[luciferhorus]

Its all part of a Luciferian false resistance to this evilarchy, these anarchists will manage to indoctrinate easily mislead people into their way of thinking. The fact that i have seen posts which openly suggest that mass genocide of Christians/Muslims, tells me that its all childish bravado aimed at those who have fundamental problems with religion and scriptural doctrine.

Many of the statements I make are simply dialectical responses to existant human evil. Christianity, throughout it's history has been a genocidal, imperialistic phenomenon which has promoted tyranny, slavery, wars, genocides, etc., and this continues to this day in the form of Anglo-American Christian state terrorism / narco-terrorism.

If as person is going to promote such a genocidally malevolent religion (i.e., Christianity) and it's economic system (Capitalism) it is entirely appropriate to oppose such human evil with similar genocidal intent.

Capitalism is an entirely militant, evangelical, genocidal phenomenon which has produced a world of extreme suffering and human enslavement; only an entirely militant genocidal response is appropriate.

With regards to "non-militant" solutions to militant Capitalism, there simply are no such solutions; it is simply a form of submission and surrender. One cannot simply negotiate with militant state terrorists armed with weapons of mass destruction; nothing less than their total eradication will suffice.


People need to understand that that religion and the occult are both as good as each other but at the same as bad as each other.

Oh well thanks for clearing that up.

All forms of religion contain certain ethical laws which deal simply with how people should treat each other; even an atheist mother will attempt to give her children some form of ethical code, such as sharing resources or not harming each other. Religion is entirely unnecessary for providing ethical codes which can be derived at simply through human reason and intuition; however what religion does is offer in addition "religious morality" which restricts and enslaves human nature for no other reason than it being the will of the author of the alleged sacred text, and supposedly the will of the gods, whose will cannot be falsified or verified, and this would include descriptions of what type of child to sacrifice to Shiva or whoever, or laws demanding executions for entirely harmless and natural human bevahavior. The entire appratus of organised religion, is in my judgement a curse on humanity; a disease which will in time have to be cut out and eradicated forever in order to create the New Heaven (the world of the mind) and the New Earth. The world itself is not enough; the war against religion is a crusade for the liberation and salvation of the human soul which has been enslaved over the Aeons by the disease of religious morality.

http://barnsdale.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/religion.jpg

"Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo" ......Karl Marx

Thank you very much for thematising luciferhorus!

I do not understand why someone overtly worshipping satanism is allowed to spread his
attitude on this forum.

Is this a clear sign of utmost tolerance and democracy?

I don't get it.

.

I should make it clear that I do not worship Satan, nor do I worship any of the gods / goddesses; nor do I belong to any form of organised religion. I am not an atheist however and I am well aware of the existence of other dimensional intelligences, however I do not "worship" them; my "Luciferian" invocation is simply a magickal working which I have been involved in for many years; it is an invocation (personification) not an act of worship.

I should point out that there are also many individuals on this forum (in particular our Masonic friends here) who worship the god of Capitalism and Christianity, and that is a genocidally malevolent deity.


Lux
Blasphemy, Heresy, War, Revolution, etc.

[skyver]

I personally like reading some of Lucifer Horus's posts. He has a different outlook & I don't know enough about Luciferianism to say he is actually one or is quoting them here & there but we have had satanists, masons & occultists on here before & (apart from the masons being cussed etc) people had debate with them. I don't agree with a lot he has to say, but there is something in his texts that ring true, The kid thing is too fay for me as I have a kid & no parent wants to thing of what thier kid is likely to be getting upto! (my son is 8 going on 9) But regarding the stuff about revolution, even though they were usually started or manipulated by the elite, I don't see any other way we can overturn our problems.

I for one grew up in one fucked up enviroment & now as an adult I can see the bigger picture & what is sad is that the youth today see & care less about what's going on behind the scenes. I fear for my son's future in the greedy world.

In a nutshell I like reading certain peoples posts on here that carry a different view to mine & that includes lucifer Horus. I won't do a roll call of other memebers but, we are all bickering on here & where is that getting us. I'm sick of this shit I HATE the government/banking/elite institutions & I want to see change.

[ladybird]

Thanks, luciferhorus, for your detailed response.
I will have a quiet read and come back to you later.

[luciferhorus]

, The kid thing is too fay for me as I have a kid & no parent wants to thing of what thier kid is likely to be getting upto! (my son is 8 going on 9) But regarding the stuff about revolution, even though they were usually started or manipulated by the elite, I don't see any other way we can overturn our problems.



I think that by the "kid thing" you are referring perhaps to some of my articles on human sexuality and sex education.

I should point out that I have a post grad in Education and that although I don't teach in schools, I am a qualified school teacher and that I have thought about such issues for many years.

The "moral" problem which reduces humanity to slavery has to do with religious morality and numerous invented laws which are simply "sins of restriction" and have been attributed to divine origin or the relevation of the gods, and which simply do not conform to human reason and intuition.

For example, if there is a Creator, it seems that She decided that at a certain point in human development, that a child transforms from a child to an adult, and this is at the point of puberty. From that time on, the young adult becomes a sexual creature who seeks erotic pleasure. This is entirely natural. However the religionists come along and impose numerous restrictions on this young adult, such as the sins of monogamy, legalised prostitution (marriage / sex slavery) and even imposed celibacy which makes a young adult into a criminal for having sex under a certain age. This all seems totally insane to me.

In order for human beings to be truly free, they have to be sexually free. If one's true will is to fulfill one's inner erotic fantasies consensually with another person, that that is a divine and magickal act; it is the opposite of "sin." If God did not want post pubescents to have sex with each other, She would not have created us as She did. Of course the religious moralists seem to know much better than God regarding human will and human nature and have imposed numerous restructions on human beings which reduces them to little more than miserable slaves, terrified to follow their own sacred will, for fear of eternal punishment for doing nothing more than living in accordance with their nature.

A future world which has abandoned religious morality would be a better world, and it would have to be a world liberated from the sins of monogamy, celibacy and marriage, all of which are crimes against human nature.

The world and all that is in it is not enough; even if humanity were to be liberated from the slavery of Capitalism and tyranny, if humankind were still crippled by the disease of religious morality, it would still be hell on earth. Nothing less than an entirely New Heaven and New Earth is demanded.

Lux

[agneau]

"Can someone summarise Luciferhorus' posts please?"

Sure: "I am the truth and the light - thou shall have no other Gods before me - and I've overbought on the virgins, so I'm giving them away as a loss leader...."

There you go.

[luciferhorus]

"Can someone summarise Luciferhorus' posts please?"

Sure: "I am the truth and the light - thou shall have no other Gods before me - .

Well we are all gods and goddeses, though many are in a fallen state due to religious and political indoctrination and hypnosis, however I do not demand to be "worshipped," not in the religious sense anyway, though erotic human relationships are certainly an act of human worship in a sense.

I am an advocate of Thelemic moral philosophy and Anarchist Communist political philosophy; these are the two "narrow" paths to the creation of a New Heaven and New Earth; I have no new religion, indeed I seek the eradication of all forms of organised religion; I do not seek to be worshipped as an object of idolatry; I am a human being.

Revolution by the Rod of Iron.

Of course, since Capitalism is a militant and genocidal ideology, Communism must by necessity also be a similarly militant ideology; I may not wish to be worshipped, but I certainly do wish my will to be imposed on earth, and that will unfortunately require rivers of blood, wars and revolutions, however "my will" is simply part of the collective human will of all Anarcho Communists.


and I've overbought on the virgins, so I'm giving them away as a loss leader...."

There you go.

I did not buy any virgins.

My offer of 144,000 virgins in the afterlife to those who adere to the one true non religion of Anarchist Communism is a satirical response to the Muslims offer of 72 virgins, the Masonic belief that they will all end up in the Grand Lodge in the afterlife (I am quite sure that they will all end up together in eternity) and the ridiculous Christian belief that they will end up in eternity with the Israeli Communist Jesus (despite the Christians being mostly anti-Communists).

Further I do believe that the afterlife is a very erotic place, and that erotic desire continues for eternity; I think that most of us might get tired of being with the same 144,000 virgins for all eternity; we are naturally polyamorous and there should be no limit to such relationships.

With regards to the Masonic "Grand Lodge in the Afterlife" it is my view that our enemies and allies become our eternal enemies and allies. It is really not a good idea to join a malevolent Capitalist cult of Capitalists and to swear eternal oaths. I doubt there will be many "virgins" or even many "females" in the realms of the afterlife reserved for the Capitalists and hypocrites of religion.

The idea that the Capitalists end up in the hell and that their many economic victims and slaves end up in hell was the perspective of the Israeli Communist 2000 years ago; I think that is a much too simplistic view of the afterlife, however certainly it is generally my view to a certain degree. What we bind on earth, we bind in eternity. There is no salvation in religion; on the contrary, it is a form of spiritual enslavement.

Lux

[agneau]

"Can someone summarise Luciferhorus' posts please?"

Sure: "I am the truth and the light - thou shall have no other Gods before me - and I've overbought on the virgins, so I'm giving them away as a loss leader...."

There you go.


"..and I've lost my wallet somewhere and it had all my credit cards, money, drivers licence, Falmouth Serious Communist Library Card, lucky condom, sense of humour........."

[luciferhorus]

"..and I've lost my wallet somewhere and it had all my credit cards, money, drivers licence, Falmouth Serious Communist Library Card, lucky condom, sense of humour........."

I have not lost any of those things, "especially" my sense of humour. Some of the things which I write are in entirely a satirical manner; I can't help it if other people take everything I say seriously.

Other things I write are simply dialectical responses to human evil. Anglo-American Christian Capitalist state terrorism / narco-terrorism is an entirely militant, imperialistic and genocidal ideology; thus I have called for the holocaust of all US Christians (two thirds of the population) and all Anglo-American state terrorist collaborators; personally I don't kill or eat animals or human beings and I am a rather gentle creature, never the less I do feel a responsibility to respond to human evil; it is an entirely appropriate Socratic method.

Lux

[christ4life]

Yes. We're talking about a dude in Glastonbury who likes dressing up as a wizard, gardening and funky sex games with his girlfriend. He's not going to hurt a fly.

Sorry :D but that was funny.

[luciferhorus]

Yes. We're talking about a dude in Glastonbury who likes dressing up as a wizard, gardening and funky sex games with his girlfriend. He's not going to hurt a fly..

Well in Glastonbury, street fashion is such that it is very common to see hordes of people in Wiccan - Pagan - Gothic _ Vamp style. Not sure that I have ever dressed as a Wizard through. With regards to funky sex games with my girlfriend I have no idea what you are referring to. My articles on human sexuality tend to be very general and non-specific about my personal life.

Killing Flies and other useless creatures.

With regards to hurting flies; I can assure you that I do kill flies and spare the spiders, who seem to do most of the killing on my behalf. However with regards to human beings I do not kill or eat human beings. I have not yet eaten a Christian and my stated plans for world Salvation (from religion) through eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christians are purely satirical and should not be taken seriously; I would prefer that they were painlessly and humanely executed.

Armchair Warriors.

Frankly most of the most evil people in the world, who are part of the Anglo-American state terrorist / narco terrorist establishment probably do not kill or eat human beings; they are probably mostly personally harmless to their own social circle. It often seems to be this way.

Wars are generally initiated and financed not by actual soldiers who fight, but by armchair warriors, the priests, politicians and the military and economic elties; such individuals generally do not send their own children to war either, they are more likely to be found on the playing fields of Eton or in some City bank or law firm.

Philosophers, writers, propagandists & political activists "generally" have not fought their own wars; one person with a voice and a pen is no match for an army; however more blood can be shed by those who incite war with the sword of their mouth than by any soldier.

Similarly probably most of those here who defend the Capitalist state terrorist establishment are similarly harmless to their own aquaintances, yet they share the karmic weight of the blood and human slavery of millions.

Lux

[moon monkey]

I enjoy your posts LH. I find them thought provoking and interesting.

MM

[jimprofit]

I don't mind people having opinions, but he seems to be firing out authority cues like a gattling gun, and claiming that children who sleep in the same bed will mutualy masturbate naturaly.

I don't feel like wading through the whole thing.

Is he also engaged in some kind of hatemongering based on nearly 2000 years of intollerence where money lending was the ONLY work which Jews in some places were allowed to do?

Does he represent some kind of secret society, or is he just nesting in this category whilst he poisons the air?
He's a fucking troll from myspace. I recognize that av, that stupid signature with the pentegram shit, he's a joke. And he's pulling a big gag on you guys.

I can't stand him myself. His longwinded rantings of pedophilia, pseudo-religious newage bullshit, and complete submission to collective authority makes me just want to puke all over him and his dead slut mother. He represents everything that is wrong with the modern Satanic movement. It is a far cry from the good old days, where we would compell the butchering of minorities to esculate the collapse of civilization.

Notice I call myself a Satanist, and am about romantiscm and technology. He is a "Luciferian" and talks about stoicism and nature. He's a fucking hippy. A dirty, unoriginal, fucking hippy.

As I just told my wife; Luciferians are like The Tau of Warhammer 40k. Commiting genocide and turning the universe into complacent zombies "for the greater good!" Satanists are more like Necrons, strange, alien cyborgs, awoken from a deep, ancient slumber from secret pyramids and locations to troll and bring binary lulz.

Luciferhorus... more like Lucy Whoreus, amirite?!?!

[luciferhorus]

He's a fucking troll from myspace. I recognize that av, that stupid signature with the pentegram shit, he's a joke. And he's pulling a big gag on you guys.

I can't stand him myself. His longwinded rantings of pedophilia, pseudo-religious newage bullshit, and complete submission to collective authority makes me just want to puke all over him and his dead slut mother. He represents everything that is wrong with the modern Satanic movement. It is a far cry from the good old days, where we would compell the butchering of minorities to esculate the collapse of civilization.

Notice I call myself a Satanist, and am about romantiscm and technology. He is a "Luciferian" and talks about stoicism and nature. He's a fucking hippy. A dirty, unoriginal, fucking hippy.

As I just told my wife; Luciferians are like The Tau of Warhammer 40k. Commiting genocide and turning the universe into complacent zombies "for the greater good!" Satanists are more like Necrons, strange, alien cyborgs, awoken from a deep, ancient slumber from secret pyramids and locations to troll and bring binary lulz.

Luciferhorus... more like Lucy Whoreus, amirite?!?!

I generally consider it beneath myself to engage in exchanges of abuse. I find that those who have to resort to that usually do not have the literacy, intelligence or education to defend themselves in intelligent debate.

I obviously have a different opinion of myself than you have.

On Paedophilia and the Solution to Paedophilia.

With regards to allegations of promoting paedophilia, this is entirely untrue; I have numerous essays on this site and in circulation on the subject of sexual psychology and none of them promote paedophila; on the contrary they attempt to offer a solution to the problems of paedophila; a solution which conforms with human nautre and attempts to resolve the problem of why people become so sexually messed up.

It is my view that in a future world ruled by human nature, human reason and ethics (how we treat each other) derived "only" from human reason, as opposed to the ramblings of religious fanatics, that it would be necessary to discard all forms of religious morality including "sexual morality;" the New Man (and woman) of a future post-religious world would have no need for religious laws telling them who can and cannot have erotic relationships with, or what type of children to sacrifice to Shiva, or what day of the week it is forbidden by God to do any work on, or who is to be executed for blasphemy or for natural non monogamous relationships.

Studies of human sexual psychology tend to show that human beings are not monogamous, even if they behave that way due to religious and social conditioning and pressures; their minds do not think it such a way. As a species we are polyamorists, sexual communists. We also seem to be inherently a bisexual species, as are almost all of the higher animals. When human beings live in denial of their true nature, they become sexually repressed and unfulfilled.

"That which we oppress, we become obsessed with."

Peadophilia and non consensual sex crimes with adults are a consequence of a sexually repressed society.

An example I have often given is that in sexually communist communities such as the Osho cult which I was loosely assosiated with many years ago, sex crime and paedophilia simply did not exist. Adults were free to have erotic relationships with anyone they chose, the sin of monogamy was discouraged, and yes prepubescent children did sleep together communally and they did tend to form erotic bonds; however this is simply an observation of human nature and of child psychology; it has absolutely nothing to do with paedophilia which generally is a term which describes a sexual relationship between an adult and a child.

Satanism

With regards to "Satanism" this is a very generic term which describes a variety of forms of philosophy and spirituality from the atheistic and thelemic philosophy of La Vey to "Spiritual Satanism." It is also a term generally used by Christians to describe the vast array of anti-Christians, and just about anyone they don't agree with.

"Satanism" and "Satan" are also terms which have been popularised in the music culture; I am quite sure that there are US army grunts shelling innocents with depleted Uranium shells while listening to Metallica, thinking themselves to be "Satanists;" however such persons are simply the epitomy of morally worthless vermin from an Anarchist perspective, who should be disposed of permanently at the first available opportunity; they are simply a curse on humankind and slaves to the military and economic establishment.

Thus while I find myself generally in agreement with "some" self defined philosophical Satanists of the modern Neopagan movement, I also find myself totally hostile to the rather ignorant grunts who hide behind the term as if it would hide their ignorance, and for whom it is just a fashion statement and often little more than an excuse to collaborate with the American state terrorists and have a military career in the art of obedience genocide and terrorism at the bequest of their masters.

The term "Satanism" while referring to many philosopical proponents of Thelemic philosophy who seek the salvation of humankind from the sin of religious morality, is also unfortunately a term of self definition used by many sociopaths, psychopaths and the criminally insane who bring the philosophical and spiritual Satanists, who are usually little more than Thelemites into disrepute.

The sociopathic, psychopathic and criminally insane among the self defined Satanists usually have a great deal in common with the religious fanatics of Christianity, and their "Satanism" is often little more than a justification for a multitude of social sins such as bigotry, nationalism, racism and all manner of ethical incorrectness compounded by arrogance and extreme human selfishness.


Lucifer

Lucifer is simply a minor Roman deity and an astrological archetype associated with Venus and the male counterpart to the goddess of love. However the Luciferian archetype has come to represent many other aspects such as anti-Christianity, "The Enlightenment," the highest authority of human reason as opposed to the authority of the various gods and religions, and of education, science and progress rather than ignorance and the savagery of past human history.

Satan and Lucifer as anti-Christian archetypes.

Of course to some Satanists, Lucifer and Satan are similar anti-Christian and anti-religious archetypes representing human intelligence, human freedom, the love of humankind, the hatred of all unust gods and the resistance to political and religious Archons. As an astrological archetype Satan probably mostly resembles Saturn, which is often presented by it's malefic qualities as the most evil of planets, however all planets have benefic and malefic qualities, and we cannot say whether a person with planets in Libra and Taurus (ruled by Venus / Lucifer) or planets in Capricorn (ruled by Saturn) is necessarily good or evil. Saturn was traditionally an agricultural deity; as the planetary ruler of Capricorn, it was a constellation which ruled the sun in middle of winter; a planet of death and destruction which gave birth to new life, and of Judgement, often symbolised by the "Grim Reaper," and frankly all of these qualities exist in the natural world.

It is rare for tyrants and archons to ever claim to represent Saturn, Satan, Venus or Lucifer; for the qualities of a tyrant and a bully are much better presented by the Solar Deity, the Sun god, the ruler of the heavens; thus the use of sun symbolism in religion and tyranny has a long history. Of course Leo (whose planetary ruler is the Sun) when malefically aligned is the archetypal bully, the vain, arrogant, psychopathic tyrant, and this is of course a description also of the the major religion of the solar deity in the past Aeon, that of Christianity with it's long history of wars, crusades, tyranny, holocuasts, genocides, inquisitions, imperialism and all manner of human evil, bigotry, enslavement, submission to tyranny and the propagation of the sins of restriction; all in the name of their Solar Deity, of course. Thus does sociopathic and psychopathic human evil often disguise itself behind the source of all Light in our galaxy, which among human beings is revered as "good," and as a source of all life. Such has been the way of the Great Deceivers and hypnotists of religion.

Lux

[moon monkey]

He's a fucking troll from myspace. I recognize that av, that stupid signature with the pentegram shit, he's a joke. And he's pulling a big gag on you guys.

I can't stand him myself. His longwinded rantings of pedophilia, pseudo-religious newage bullshit, and complete submission to collective authority makes me just want to puke all over him and his dead slut mother. He represents everything that is wrong with the modern Satanic movement. It is a far cry from the good old days, where we would compell the butchering of minorities to esculate the collapse of civilization.

Notice I call myself a Satanist, and am about romantiscm and technology. He is a "Luciferian" and talks about stoicism and nature. He's a fucking hippy. A dirty, unoriginal, fucking hippy.

As I just told my wife; Luciferians are like The Tau of Warhammer 40k. Commiting genocide and turning the universe into complacent zombies "for the greater good!" Satanists are more like Necrons, strange, alien cyborgs, awoken from a deep, ancient slumber from secret pyramids and locations to troll and bring binary lulz.

Luciferhorus... more like Lucy Whoreus, amirite?!?!


How unpleasant to call another man's mother a slut. What utter nonsense you speak.

The link in your signature says a lot about how "enlightened" you are.

[energi]

Well we are all gods and goddeses, though many are in a fallen state due to religious and political indoctrination and hypnosis, however I do not demand to be "worshipped," not in the religious sense anyway, though erotic human relationships are certainly an act of human worship in a sense.

I am an advocate of Thelemic moral philosophy and Anarchist Communist political philosophy; these are the two "narrow" paths to the creation of a New Heaven and New Earth; I have no new religion, indeed I seek the eradication of all forms of organised religion; I do not seek to be worshipped as an object of idolatry; I am a human being.


Lux
Could you summarize Thelemic philosophy for me? Would make my day, srsly.

All that I read about Thelema is related to either Aleister Crowley or (negative) occult magickal teachings... I always thought that there oughta be some more general parts to it (such as philosophy).

[thelonious]

Could you summarize Thelemic philosophy for me? Would make my day, srsly.

All that I read about Thelema is related to either Aleister Crowley or (negative) occult magickal teachings... I always thought that there oughta be some more general parts to it (such as philosophy).

In a nutshell:

There is a metaphysical "true will" that is somehow analogous to the idea of a "soul". We incarnated as humans for one reason only: to fulfill this divine true will. This is summed up in the Thelemic maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." In other words, our only lawful action is to discover the true will and follow it, which is the meaning of our existence.

The true will can be discovered by two separate methods: Theurgy (a type of Ceremonial Magick) and Yoga. Crowley based his system around teaching students these two methods so that they could discover their true wills, and act upon them.

[thetonic]

In a nutshell:

There is a metaphysical "true will" that is somehow analogous to the idea of a "soul". We incarnated as humans for one reason only: to fulfill this divine true will. This is summed up in the Thelemic maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." In other words, our only lawful action is to discover the true will and follow it, which is the meaning of our existence.

The true will can be discovered by two separate methods: Theurgy (a type of Ceremonial Magick) and Yoga. Crowley based his system around teaching students these two methods so that they could discover their true wills, and act upon them.

The notion that ones true path and divine purpose can only be discovered by following one or two structual models is a joke at best and a satanic mind fuck at worst.

Getting sucked into a limited thought process and ending up so far down a rabbit hole you may never get back out.

You poor gullible fools

[thelonious]

You poor gullible fools

http://www.iranian.com/main/files/blogimages/0-hypocrisy.jpg

[luciferhorus]

In a nutshell:

There is a metaphysical "true will" that is somehow analogous to the idea of a "soul". We incarnated as humans for one reason only: to fulfil this divine true will. This is summed up in the Thelemic maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." In other words, our only lawful action is to discover the true will and follow it, which is the meaning of our existence.

Yes, in a single paragraph, that seems quite a perfect explanation.


The true will can be discovered by two separate methods: Theurgy (a type of Ceremonial Magick) and Yoga. Crowley based his system around teaching students these two methods so that they could discover their true wills, and act upon them.

A point I would raise is where you appear to limit the understanding of "true will" to these two separate methods; to limit Thelema to this alone rather mystifies Thelema and distances Thelema from it's universally liberating power as "the" moral philosophy of the New Aeon.

It rather makes Thelema seem to be a "transcendental" philosophy which can only be understood by magickians & spiritualists. Admittedly I think that Crowley did also have a rather “transcendental,” understanding of Thelema, as also do I, as clearly do you, however Crowley's intellectual conversion to Thelemic philosophy did not occur in a vacuum and I think it is necessary to understand also other Thelemic philosophers, even of course those who do not refer to themselves as Thelemites.

For example I would consider many evangelical atheists such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchins to be Thelemites, however they do not define themselves in such a way, yet their entire ethical philosophy is simply a produce of their own reason, intuition and will, and this of course accords with Thelemic philosophy, as does the ethical philosophy of the Anarchists and Nietzschians whose concepts of Thelema are entirely non transcendental and natural. It seems to me that many post-Enlightenment moral philosophers from different schools of thought are coming to very similar conclusions.

A Brief history of Moral Philosophy from Socrates to Thelema.

1: Religious Morality.

Firstly it is necessary to separate "religious morality" from "ethics." Ethics deals "only" with human relationships.

A mother who is unindoctrinated by any form of religion will still attempt to instil certain natural ethical principles into her children; she may say "don't hurt each other," "don't bully each other," "share all your resources," and "love each other." Such ethical principles are simply the produce of the mother's natural reason, love and intuition and do not rely on transcendentalism.

All religions also contain some ethical laws, such as "thou shalt not murder," which a humanist would certainly also say was entirely reasonable, but in addition to this, religion also makes many claims to teachings and laws which have a "transcendental (up above)" and mystical source in "higher beings" inaccessible to the masses of humanity, such as what kind of child to sacrifice to Shiva, or regarding executions for blasphemy, for working on the Sabbath or for various types of natural erotic relationships which a person might pursue given total freedom of will.

Often such teachings and laws which have been the product of the ramblings of the various religious fanatics become so "sacred" that to challenge them with the authority of human reason becomes an act of blasphemy and heresy.

Socrates.

We can read nothing of Socrates written in the first person, but we know of him through the writings of Plato, Aristotle and others. What we find with Socrates is not a rigid and dogmatic system of thought like the ramblings of Aquinas and other transcendental philosophers, but rather more a philosophical "method" of questioning and arguing. Socrates the myth and martyr, like the mythical martyr Prometheus, challenged the gods and archons (authorities / rulers) of his age and was put to death for his rebellion against authority.

The Enlightenment

Socrates is rather considered the forefather of the Western philosophical tradition which bore fruit in the Enlightenment philosophers of the 17th century to the current age, who questioned all the gods and the laws of the gods and archons and subjected all to the highest authority of human reason and intuition.

God as Psychological Projection: Ludwig Feuerbach

"The divine being is nothing more than the human being."

Fuerbach is probably the forefather of the field of "Psychology of Religion." His analysis of "God" and the "gods" is perhaps the most simple and common sense critic of the nature and morality of God.

Suppose that you came to the conclusion in your mind that there must be a Creator or creators of the universe, and that this Creator or creators must be "good." What would you then do? You would probably project your own personal interpretation of what is good and evil onto this god and it would be an interpretation which would still be affected by your past religious and social conditioning.

If you don't like people of a certain race, then your god would not like those people; if you have certain bigoted views and think those to be "good," then your "good" god would be a bigot; if you were an ideological Capitalist and a proponent of tyranny (government) then your "good" God would be a Capitalist and a tyrant; if you were a nationalist, your "good" God would love your nation more than others. If you desire to possess, enslave and dominate the body and soul of others, then your God would probably be similarly a monogamist and a proponent of sex slavery.

If you have done all this, you would then have succeeded in doing only what every other religious fanatic in human history has ever done, which is project your own personal prejudices, your likes and dislikes onto this Creator or creators, and that is the story of religion.

Francois Rabelais' Thelema Abbey

It was Francois Rabelais' fictional Thelema Abbey" which Crowley attempted to manifest in his own Thelema Abbey project, as too I have done with my own Thelema Abbey projects.

Rather being considered to be a serious philosopher, Rabelais is generally considered to be more of an anti-clerical satirist in the tradition of Voltaire, however a philosopher without a sense of humour is generally inaccessible to the mass of humanity. In Rabelais' utopia human beings were free to live according to their natural will, unencumbered by the laws of religion and society.

"All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed,

Do What Thou Wilt; because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour. Those same men, when by base subjection and constraint they are brought under and kept down, turn aside from that noble disposition by which they formerly were inclined to virtue, to shake off and break that bond of servitude wherein they are so tyrannously enslaved; for it is agreeable with the nature of man to long after things forbidden and to desire what is denied us.

Nietzsche's Ubermensch (Superman) and the Death of God.

Although Nietzsche did not use the term "Thelema," Nietzsche was most certainly a High Priest of Thelema among the Enlightenment philosophers, but it is a High Priest devoid of transcendentalism. Nietzsche's "Superman" was not a person with any supernatural or transcendental abilities; his vision of the "New Man (“Neo” in modern Hollywood fiction) was that of a rational, educated, modern, scientific person who had no need of transcendental dietes or laws; this New Man was a living god whose reason, intellect and intuition guided him, and who had dispensed with the "slave morality" of the world's religions. To be "moral (i.e., good)" was to act rationally, intelligently and in accordance with his own will, and such a superior creature would be entirely able to announce the death of any transcendental deities who were the enemies of the god of nature and of human reason and who would resist the New Man's divine (godlike) will and human reason.

The Anarchists. Revolutionary War.

The Anarchist philosophers of the 19th and 20th century have certainly all been Thelemites by default, with the exception of some of the Anarchist Christians; here also Rabelais' Utopia was consolidated into a political philosophy which sought to free humankind from the tyranny of the state, religion and the enslavement of Capital, and to give birth to world without the necessity for secular or religious law, where humankind would be guided only by their natural moral law.

Just as in Rabelais' utopian Thelema Abbey, which was of course a community of "well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies (who) have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions," similarly in an Anarchist community, such an ideal would only work of the citizens of such communities were themselves Anarchists, just as any Thelemic community would have to discriminate against non-Thelemites.

Had one assembled the vast array of football hooligans, US army grunts, religious fanatics and the assorted dross of the economic slave masters of the Capitalist system, accustomed to forcing their will upon others and enslaving them as subjects, and attempted to integrate such morally worthless dross of humankind into such a community, chaos would most certainly ensue; gang warfare and the return to Feudalism would very likely break out.

Thus unfortunately, as has been attested to by numerous collective experiments, a utopian community of human freedom is only possible if the the citizens of the community are themselves attempting to live in accordance with Anarchist, Thelemic and Nietzschian models.

Unfortunately much of the population have been entirely conditioned in societies which encourage the "dog eat dog" Capitalist mentality of extreme selfish individualism and where "Do what thou" wilt" often means violating and enslaving the will of others and forcing them into subjection to the will of economic, military and religious archons.

Thus the necessity for revolutionary war and the eradication of all who are unfit for the New World, and this of course is in accord with the Thelemic principle of "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights."

Similarly in the US state terrorist backed Capitalist revolutions and military coups in Latin America since the end of WW2, often the first task of any newly installed regime of the Capitalist Right is to arrest and often execute all resistance from the anti-Capitalist Left; so too it is entirely necessary in a progressive revolution to brutally and mercilessly eradicate all anti-Communists; pity and compassion in such a scenario has no place and are entirely unnatural and a “vice.”

"Do what thou wilt," and Neowicca.

Modernn Neowiccanists in particular have tampered with Thelemic mantra of "Do what thou wilt" and turned it into "Do what thou wilt but harm none."

With the exception of "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights," which implies the right also of self defence, "Do what thou wilt but harm none," is what is anyway implied in Crowley's philosophy. Wiccans also seem to have a basic grasp of natural moral law and are usually devoid of religious morality, preferring instead to simply follow their own natural will, which for most Wiccan woman seems to be entwined with their romantic and erotic will, and this too is implied by Crowley's philosophy.

Transcendental Thelema.

Many of the modern proponents of Thelemic Philosophy are themselves modern, educated persons with a broad understanding of the history of religion and philosophy. Of course in any philosophical revolution, a "revolutionary vanguard" is entirely necessary.

When the brightest and most intellectually evolved of humanity point in a certain direction, then others pay attention. However there is also a tendency here to turn humanist ethics from a natural moral philosophy into a transcendental philosophy understood only by intellectual and spiritual elites, and to give birth to a new set of religious masters. This is of course the highest blasphemy and heresy to all Anarchists, rationalists and humanists.

This tendency can of course be found in Crowley himself. I personally consider it unwise to place anyone beyond criticism and to attach infallibility to all their utterances. Crowley himself was entirely human and fallible, and his life was a voyage of discovery and of intellectual, erotic and "magickal exploration. Many of us who have attempted to follow in Crowley's footsteps come to a state of mind which is almost incomprehensible to the mass of the human population. The soul of a person which has indulged in extreme experimentation with narcotics and shamanic psychoactives, in experimental sex magick and in necromancy cannot be entirely understood by the rationalist and humanist.

I have no doubt that we live in a multi-dimensional cosmos; I cannot of course provide the necessary proofs required by humanists of the existence of transcendental realities, of intelligent beings from other dimensions, and of the existence of gods and goddesses (commonly referred to as ancestral spirits) that the magickian attempts to summon and subject to their will.

The central method of reaching such an understanding appears to me to be the use of magickal psychoactives, and thus I assume that many persons who have had such experiences will have a similar understanding to my own, that the world of the 5 senses is but a part of our experience.

Unfortunately many who undertake Crowley's path fall victim to religious insanity and become schizophrenic, and frankly it is my belief that almost all of the world's major religions are the product of schizophrenic religious fanatics.

The Salvation of Humankind and the Sins of Restriction.

If we set aside the tendency towards transcendental elitism among some of the "Revolutionary Vanguard" of the Thelemites, it is my view that Thelemic philosophy can be understood by any Anarchist, humanist, atheist, Deist or indeed any person familiar with the study of moral philosophy.

While it is a philosophy propagated by many who are intellectually and educationally evolved, it seems to me also that it is the simplest moral philosophy which can be understood well by any child, or indeed any person who is devoid of education.

Humankind is enslaved by the religious morality of the ramblings the religious fanatics of the past Aeons, which simply enslaves the human soul. A hypnotised and indoctrinated victim then lives in fear and loathing of their own nature and of the natural world. Natural desires, especially erotic desires are repressed, and as a result the person often lives out their erotic desires, not in the real world of real people, but in an inner fantasy world. This can also have the tendency to produce a sociopath, a person who mentally lives in a world of their own and is almost entirely unable to have free, natural, loving, erotic and human relationships; this is the psychology of the Catholic priest who considers his flock merely to be objects to be abused against their will and seeks out not merely consensual relationships with equals, but with the most vulnerable and helpless.

The foremost sins of restriction are perhaps sex slavery (marriage) and monogamy. Despite these being “sins of restriction” which are totally opposed to our natural human eroticism, such sins have been promoted as the will of god or the gods.

Global universal “salvation” is thus entirely dependent on Thelemic Salvation.

Lux

"the law of
the strong:
this is our law
and the joy
of the world."
      —AL. II. 2
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." —AL. I. 40
"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." —AL. I. 42–3
"Every man and every woman is a star." —AL. I. 3
There is no god but man.
1. Man has the right to live by his own law—
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will.
2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.
3. Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.
4. Man has the right to love as he will:—
"take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51
5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.
"the slaves shall serve." —AL. II. 58
"Love is the law, love under will." —AL. I. 57

[thetonic]

http://www.iranian.com/main/files/blogimages/0-hypocrisy.jpg

Care to elaborate on this?

[luciferhorus]

Care to elaborate on this?

Well if you are in a position where you are criticising human evil in the world. the question is begged as to how you define "good?"

You can refer to numerous holy books which have allegedly been received by transcendental gods or "the god" or a god. Or you can simply use your own natural reason and intuition to construct a definition of good and evil, as all humanists do, or you could just suspend all criticism and refer to David Icke or numerous other persons past or present.

I think that Thelonious is merely pointing out that you may also be guilty of transcendentalism and of favouring certain transcendental methods. Thelonious is also guilty of this, as is David Icke, as probably is every person on this forum who considers themselves in some way to be "spiritualist," as was Crowley, as indeed am I.

If we ask a football hooligan, a US army grunt, a tyrant, a usuryist, a religious fanatic or playground bully, "What is your True Will?" then we will find that their answers will probably be objectionable to most human beings.

"God's Will" if She exists at all, must have something to do with collective human will.

Consider the will of a mother who wishes her children to be happy. "True Will" requires some careful thought and consideration. We cannot just ask a philosopher or religious fanatic, we must become the philosopher who converses with other philosophers and we must severly chastise the religious fanatic.

I was watching a documentary yesterday about the Capitalist paradise of Monaco where only a tiny proportion of the world's population live. It is certainly among the safest nations on earth to live in. There is almost no crime. Some people have more than others, but that does not define happiness. When persons grow old in the abundance of food, shelter and happiness, they tend to become mature, wise philosophical, friendly and conversational. When persons grow up in poverty, hunger and the lack of personal security, their "true will" tends to have to do with these basic needs which many of us in the Capitalist First World take for granted.

We all have economic needs for food, shelter and security; it is part of our common will. There is however a problem among human beings that religionists and spiritualists arise and claim to have some knowledge of a transcendental human will, which usually seems to be contrary to human nature.

There are persons on this forum who believe that some human beings are possessed by malevolent transcendental intelligences. I also "believe" that to a certain extent. However I will never be able to prove that, since what is transcendental is not empirical and cannot be proven.

We live in a world of almost 7 billion persons who are subjected to various forms of tyranny, religious hypnosis and the International Dictatorship of Capital. The salvation of humankind from this state cannot be attained by simply retreating to a cave or mountain top and meditating, praying or masturbating. Neither can it be attained by eneveloping oneself in Capitalist paradise or even in the personal experience of love.

No person is an island unto themselves. There are 6 billion of us here. If we are all interconnected, none are truly saved till all are saved.

A person may argue that they have found a way to salvation through meditating, through narcotics, through personal happiness, through love, lust, prayer, religion, or by a variety of means. Some may be truly happy; others may just be fooling themselves. However the path to universal human happiness must be a format which all persons can agree with. including the humanists and atheists. Thus elitist, bizzarre, transcendental, mystical solutions, which many of us are guilty of proposing will never suffice for all humanity.

Lux