Subconscious mind - descision maker

[the infinite one]

After watching the project camlot interview icke.

I heard icke say that 95% or even a 100% of our descision making is from the subconscious mind, while our conscious mind is the observer/experiencer. That's incredible!

But, where is free will?

Your thoughts?

[ianw]

After watching the project camlot interview icke.

I heard icke say that 95% or even a 100% of our descision making is from the subconscious mind, while our conscious mind is the observer/experiencer. That's incredible!

But, where is free will?

Your thoughts?

If you go along with, when you sleep you enter your subconscious,and become one with the infinate conscious.There you can make your things to do list,infinate free will?
When you wake in the morning as a consciuos drop seperated from the infinate.You ´live the dream`
The more frequent we can jump between the two, the more we can understand the movie,and maybe influence it.
Keep running of to bed isn´t the answer,tho you may of noticed thats what people do when things aren´t going there way.
Getting into some zen brain state may help.But it must be acheived in our normal day to day life if possable.
Ive tryed it cross legged but it doesent work for me.
Doing boring tasks,Ive drifted there in a day dreamy way.:)

[steevo]

What is "free will" though ?

[branjo]

Free will is an illusion because no matter what choice you think you have in front of you, you have already chosen what you will do. It is an egotistical creation of the mind to feel like it has a real purpose in your survival when it plays basically no importance at all.

In a life and death situation, freewill is understood for what it is, completely pointless. If your intuition was a shark, the mind/ego/freewill would be one of those little fish that swim around its mouth looking for scraps to survive.

We shouldn't be so quick to defend the mind, you are not your mind, just like you are not your body. Consciousness is not mind, the mind and its doubts are a disease of consciousness. Mind is the reason people are so intolerable of other people, instead of understanding that we are not separate the mind creates the illusion of freewill that excuses separation and division. It is a tool and should be given no more respect or adoration than a screw driver in a toolbox. It helps you read this thread and form opinions, or what flavorful food it wants to eat, its not eating from a survival aspect it is merely eating out of "want", not "need".

The mind doesn't live in the present, it lives in the past and in the future. It lives in regret or in hope, both regret and hope are illusions that are based on the concept of time.

[ex_anser_ovo]

Traffic lights can't ultimately stop traffic from flowing, but they can regulate it.
There is a lot of traffic in our skulls. And we have developed a complicated network of traffic regulators, which are pretty neat in that they are also obligated to undergo further development through their use.

The more interesting question is where does the traffic come from.

[nectars]

Free will is an illusion because no matter what choice you think you have in front of you, you have already chosen what you will do. It is an egotistical creation of the mind to feel like it has a real purpose in your survival when it plays basically no importance at all.

In a life and death situation, freewill is understood for what it is, completely pointless. If your intuition was a shark, the mind/ego/freewill would be one of those little fish that swim around its mouth looking for scraps to survive.

We shouldn't be so quick to defend the mind, you are not your mind, just like you are not your body. Consciousness is not mind, the mind and its doubts are a disease of consciousness. Mind is the reason people are so intolerable of other people, instead of understanding that we are not separate the mind creates the illusion of freewill that excuses separation and division. It is a tool and should be given no more respect or adoration than a screw driver in a toolbox. It helps you read this thread and form opinions, or what flavorful food it wants to eat, its not eating from a survival aspect it is merely eating out of "want", not "need".

The mind doesn't live in the present, it lives in the past and in the future. It lives in regret or in hope, both regret and hope are illusions that are based on the concept of time.

The above is the most accurate I've seen regarding all this on this forum so far.

As for the thread title. The subconscious doesn't make decisions, it follows pre-programmed ones that have either gotten past the conscious mind or have been accepted by it as true.

Free will or Freedom of choice only extends so far, and only then if we wipe out or empty the mind completely. Personal Karma is an effect of all programming in the mind which manifests as a consequence of what we are and have become through our past choices. Once that programming is removed though, we still have the Karma of God to deal with(supposedly, as I've not experienced this as first hand -yet).

[ex_anser_ovo]

It is a nice post nectars.

We have as much free will as high pressure systems, being introduced to low pressure systems, have of avoiding energy transfer. Like a balloon filled with helium popping when it floats into the upper atmosphere. :D

Our internalization, and reaction processes are an attempt of establishing an equilibrium between all that has been constructed within, with what is being introduced from without.

[steevo]

Yes great post Branjo.
So where does our innate ability to know "right" from "wrong" come into the equation ? I think that our ego is probably 100% programmed. The programmed ego rationalises "right and wrong" (eg cognative dissonance), and any descision is based on that rationalisation.

So....is it the subconcious mind or is it the concious mind that is doing the rationalising ?:confused: I think that it's the concious mind that does the rationalising, and it is basing the rationalising on previously stored information (programmed info).

So that would mean that EVERY desiscion that we make is based on information AQUIRED. The people with the most USEFUL information (from different perspectives) are able to make better, INFORMED desiscions. A computer that has the most USEFUL programs installed, has a better ability to deal with more situations.

In today's society, we get so much shit thrown at us, that we have to keep updating ourselves with more and more information, just so that we can then make an INFORMED desiscion. A caveman would not have these problem and his intuition would be his primary influence in his descion making (but I could be wrong there lol).

[ex_anser_ovo]

You can think of the conscious mind as an integral part of a feedback loop.

Its job is to receive input from both the environment, and subconscious processes, then create an output that goes back into the subconscious, and through actuation, back into the environment. The loop continues through receiving new input based on what this output has changed in both the environment and subconscious.

Compressing the feedback loop can lead to a great deal of stress though. :(
Kind of like what this guy is doing. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkiDa_U20kQ

[branjo]

So where does our innate ability to know "right" from "wrong" come into the equation ?

That's just it though, it doesn't, you already know what right and wrong is, you don't need the mind or ego to tell you that, all the mind does is bring praise or blame after the fact, and fear or hope before it. Either we will constantly pat our selves on the back or we will feel guilt, based on what we have done. Without ego and mind fully making our decisions then we wouldn't depend on praise or blame, hope or fear to make them.

If there was such a thing as right and wrong for everyone then no one would be wrong, because really who truly wants to be wrong?, its still just a matter of perspective from the point of view of ego/mind.
If its possible to remove the ego and/or mind from any choice then there would be no disagreement in anything. The ego isn't our friend and neither is the mind although they both will defend their existence tooth and nail, just as we are not our bodies, we are also not our minds or ego.

At the moment, most of us are all locked into the belief that our ego/mind is "us" and we defend it like it is our true self, if the ego feels threatened it will react with more ego. The mind is not our identity but when we defend it like it is, all that comes after that, is conflict of some sort. So when you hear someone saying your mind/ego doesn't matter, where are you reacting from?, from the only place that feels "threatened". I am not saying "you" don't exist because that would require no argument from you because you wouldn't need to "think" about that one, you would just laugh, because you already know the answer and the truth.

We are given our ego's and mind from our environment, parents, friends, schools, workplace's, society and leaders. Its a long line of bad habits that we learned, some habits appear good some do not. Some people do things to aspire above another, whether consciously or unconsciously. They want more of this or that without even thinking how the things they want will affect someone else in the world.

I wanted this computer in front of me, the minerals needed to build the chips came from a mine in the Congo where kids are forced to mine it under slavery, the same with the chips in a cell phone or the diamond trade. If I had no ego or mind I wouldn't have bought this computer based on the misfortune of someone else, but my ego/mind said "oh well the PC is all ready here so me buying it won't change anything", its a tiny bit right and a whole lot of wrong.

The "hero" syndrome for instance, the daydream that you can make a difference and somehow save people from harm or tyranny is pure ego. If we were ever to come to the realization of "eternal life" and believe it, not just say it for sake of understanding, then there is no need to protect life at all, because it doesn't need protecting. Your family and friends are not "yours", they are each a fragment of the whole and are eternal just like you, the difference in age of a 3 year old to a 70 year old doesn't amount to much if the soul that resides in both is eternal and has had thousands if not millions of past lives.

No matter what, someone who needs saving once will constantly need saving again and again. Some threads on this forum for example try and find ways to save humanity, like its even under threat, because its not. It is ego to try and save anyone else but yourself, even if the appearance seem that the person or persons where saved, you took the power to save themselves away from them, its no different than what our governments have done to the to people, they started to think for them, they are the ego of the people. And ultimately somewhere down the line it falls apart, just like the times we are living in.

If a bomb goes off, what to people do first? They cover their eyes and protect there head, they cover what they perceive is "them" and where they think they reside is somewhere in their own heads. A person can be knocked unconscious, end up on a ventilator and be completely brain dead, but as long as the heart is still beating they are still alive, we are more our hearts than our heads.
In the womb when we were all being made the first thing to appear was the heart, not the brain, the brain is needed to control the body to deliver what the heart needs, not the other way around. The life that we are is based on a vortex, a singularity in our hearts that we give and receive love from, not just the greeting card or family wife /kids/husband kind of love, the undying, always forgiving, never hating kind of love, that our consciousness consists of.

Do you think that the Universe feels guilty when an earth quake or meteor kills a million people? no, because no matter what happens in the universe, consciousness never dies, because there is no ego in consciousness, and how amazing and wonderful is consciousness? so forgiving that it will allow the ego and mind to run rampant and do nothing to stop it, because no matter what comes from the mind or ego, its a storm in a teacup. If the universe sends things to test us then the hurdle of ego and mind is the hardest to overcome, I am certainly not there by any means but through everything the universe puts in front of me, it is my ultimate goal. Even if we fail miserably and die in a sea of egoistic negativity and regret, We still win, We still get to feel the unity of all consciousness without ego, We will get connection to pure love, no matter what happens in our lives. just like the Borg say in Star Trek, is the same thing consciousness says to ego/mind/good/evil/right/wrong, and that is "resistance is futile".

[steevo]

Personally, I dont try to "save" the earth or the people, I just spread information. What happens after that, happens.

The soul guides us, it tells us "right" from "wrong" (I have read your post above btw branjo), but defining what I believe to be "right" and "wrong" isnt an easy thing to do (especially cos it's late and I am tired which doesnt help). I believe that if we get into a meditative state, then we can "connect" to our true self (ie not our ego), and by doing this, the brain gets naturally "programmed", and our descisions that we will make will be based on subconcious knowledge stored in our brain that was put there by our intuition. Meditating is simply BEING, and just by BEING, you can follow your intuition/soul. That's what my ego thinks anyway lol

[branjo]

Personally, I dont try to "save" the earth or the people, I just spread information. What happens after that, happens.

The soul guides us, it tells us "right" from "wrong" (I have read your post above btw branjo), but defining what I believe to be "right" and "wrong" isnt an easy thing to do (especially cos it's late and I am tired which doesnt help). I believe that if we get into a meditative state, then we can "connect" to our true self (ie not our ego), and by doing this, the brain gets naturally "programmed", and our descisions that we will make will be based on subconcious knowledge stored in our brain that was put there by our intuition. Meditating is simply BEING, and just by BEING, you can follow your intuition/soul. That's what my ego thinks anyway lol


You are 100% right, the word is "being". Absolutely the most important thing of all. If meditation can get us into that part of ourselves then that is what we must do, but meditation has many many different forms, some close there eyes and sit in silence, some can build a house while others can do it while doing the dishes. When the mind is void of responsibility and the need for calculation we are our true self, we are simply "being".

Now how can you say in 1 paragraph what takes me 9 to explain?...lol :D

Peace brother :)

[steevo]

You are 100% right, the word is "being". Absolutely the most important thing of all. If meditation can get us into that part of ourselves then that is what we must do, but meditation has many many different forms, some close there eyes and sit in silence, some can build a house while others can do it while doing the dishes. When the mind is void of responsibility and the need for calculation we are our true self, we are simply "being".

Now how can you say in 1 paragraph what takes me 9 to explain?...lol :D

Peace brother :)

I agree Branjo. Like you have said we can get into a meditative state by just doing the washing up for example. The ego sort of switches off and we somehow go on auto pilot doing the washing up and "time" doesnt exist anymore in that moment. But if we are stressed (fearful), it doesnt seem to work. So maybe meditation is like connecting with love (or whatever you wanna call it) as opposed to fear. So maybe love is the natural state of being ?

[ex_anser_ovo]

I am having a hard time understanding your 2nd last post Branjo, and I think it is going to take some digging around to find some common ground where I can see why you are saying what you did. :(

[branjo]

I am having a hard time understanding your 2nd last post Branjo, and I think it is going to take some digging around to find some common ground where I can see why you are saying what you did. :(

Ok, let me put it like this,

Its like saying "the screwdriver is the most important tool in the toolbox", but its just a tool, you can't identify the whole toolbox around the one tool. So the ego/mind has become the screwdriver that is trying to dictate the existence of the toolbox. It needs taken down a peg or two for the sake of balance, maybe my post was too anti-mind/ego, that's not exactly how I meant it, I am talking from the experience of someone who has just recently noticed that the ego has ruled over me quite a bit in the past and lately while "being" the observer of my ego I can see where it is making decisions out of things like greed just to further its control.

This has the same implications with society, it works the same on crowd mentality as it does the individual, just in more obvious ways.
Have you ever been in a group or crowd of people and they all want to do something really stupid but your the only voice saying "that's dumb don't do it" and the crowd doesn't listen. The crowd is following the ego while the voice of reason is being drowned out by the ignorance of reason.

Its just that we need to tighten the reigns quite a bit on our ego's and how they operate so that our true self or spirit/soul is given the chance to show how bright it really is. I am not saying we need to be mindless robots that's more like having no soul. Basically we need to get over ourselves if progress is to be made.

You ever notice people saying in threads dealing with the spiritual awakening, "yeah yeah your kidding yourself if you ever think there is going to be a perfect world where every one lives in harmony"

I mean "WTF" are we existing for?, the same day everyday for the rest of our lives? What is under threat to those people is the sense of self attachment to the materialistic and mental things they have accumulated over their lives, they don't want to give up that connection so much that they would mentally and verbally sabotage the very thought of that better less materialistic and less self orientated world, just to satisfy the ego.

Why would a "sane" person not agree that even though they understand the concept of a better and more respectful world that doesn't cling to a materialistic way of life, then say "no, its a dumb idea and it will never work"? Because their ego see's only compromise and loss and no further benefit to them, they feel like they would loose their identity because they identify with the hardship of attaining all the crap that they own.

Like the guy who just went out and bought a brand new Ferrari with his life savings, is asked to vote against the using of fossil fuels, his ego will say "no way Jose, I just bought a Ferrari and I want to fill her up and burn some rubber", his life is only given meaning by owning the Ferrari and he is oblivious to the damage he is going to cause to the progress of clean free energy, completely out of the refusal to admit that, he won't ever see the "perfect" world because he is still a part of the self centered "imperfect" world.

This is what the marketers of such frivolous objects play on, the human ego, that's why there is a gorgeous looking girl in most car magazines, so the male ego starts to reign over reason and necessity.

[ex_anser_ovo]

Hey Branjo, thank you for the ferrari analogy. I went out and thought about it, and I think I get where you are coming from now.

I think the communication barrier I was having difficulty with, is that you have a very clear definition of the term ego, whereas I haven't gotten that yet. Plus my comprehension skills are pretty piss poor, and I need to break terms down into components, otherwise it is like I'm trying to read smoke.
So if it is cool I'm going to reflect back what you helped me to understand, as I have never considered the ego much, and sharing a different perspective might be cool.

The way the ego appears to me now, is as a mechanic that is functioning using priority structures, in order to preserve identity states.
Examples of identity states could be momentum and direction.


If this mechanic is prioritizing preservation of very local states (such as the direction/momentum of the thoughts/feelings of the self), it is functioning in an egocentric range.
ie. A person asserts that anothers perspective should be rejected, because the effort to accept it requires the amendment of one's own perspective.


If this mechanic is prioritizing a preservation of states the self has become entangled with, then it is functioning in a slightly less local fashion, but is still considered within the egocentric range.
ie. Attachment to an object that a person may not even need/use anymore.


Jumping to an extreme in the spectrum, If the mechanic is prioritizing preservation of states, that may even require self sacrifice, then it is functioning in an altruistic range, regardless of whether it is locally, communally or globally focused.
ie. An unconditional love, a devotion to the welfare of the whole, ect.


It's a pretty dry and mechanical perspective, but I'm obligated to try. :(

[branjo]

Jeese dude have you ever considered a career in law? :p

I'm pretty much the layman when it comes to my analogies I like the simple ones, but I'll give this a go. Now that I also have reread my post I should have added, "it is only what I am aware of in me" and for someone else its basically just that, "what I believe to be true", Otherwise It just sounds egotistical also and that's not to good either, but I do believe in what I am saying, and I humbly have to remind myself sometimes that I should be prepared to be wrong, this is definitely one of my own hurdles, I think about very little else these days, well with that being said, now I'll try and understand where your coming from..lol

"If this mechanic is prioritizing preservation of very local states (such as the direction/momentum of the thoughts/feelings of the self), it is functioning in an egocentric range.
ie. A person asserts that anothers perspective should be rejected, because the effort to accept it requires the amendment of one's own perspective."

Ego in my own understanding is the embodiment of stubbornness, the refusal to listen to reason, I would also say it is also where our vanity is rooted. If simply rejecting someone elses perspective on the bases of refusal to face the change in ones own perspective, then yes I would call that ego, because I have been there many times myself.

"If this mechanic is prioritizing a preservation of states the self has become entangled with, then it is functioning in a slightly less local fashion, but is still considered within the egocentric range.
ie. Attachment to an object that a person may not even need/use anymore.

I would say if I understand the question correctly, no, "if" indeed the person is willing to compromise ones ego for necessity, Once we have placed a trophy label on some object or even achievement that we spent a great deal of energy trying to achieve, it would take great control and "admirable" control at that, to let go of it, that I would say isn't ego. Over coming the need for the objects in our lives is a big step in the right direction, in my view.

But now, If it was whether or not to keep the 2 seater sports car when the person has a wife and kids and no other form of transport then it would be the ego holding the person back from selling it for a more practical vehicle.

"Jumping to an extreme in the spectrum, If the mechanic is prioritizing preservation of states, that may even require self sacrifice, then it is functioning in an altruistic range, regardless of whether it is locally, communally or globally focused."

I would say yes but not an automatic yes, the ego isn't really associated with self sacrifice as a rule, as long as the intention is a genuine reduction in the self serving aspect of ego and not just taking the rough with the promise of more smooth, does that make any sense? Like throwing a boxing match where your punishment to pride will be rewarded with a bundle of cash behind closed doors.

You made me work for for my dinner there, maybe I'll still end up hungry :D

[ex_anser_ovo]

I got some sleep, and did some other things before coming back.
I needed to clear my head.
I think what I tried to do there actually shallowed the concept of the ego. :(

Is probably just best that I think about it as a non-specific set of functions that attempt to separate an individual from what they are a part of, in order to focus on how something is affecting them.

Does that sound closer? :confused:

[branjo]

Spot on actually, and the very fact that you are consciously aware of it, is how you control it.

You know in reality,you shouldn't feel bad or confused, I can see my ego because I noticed that I have been an egotistical prick in the past so much so that it is obvious to me now...lol and lately I am trying my best to not let it affect the future by living in the present without fear of whats to come, or indeed the hope of whats to come.

People who are genuinely concerned of other people's feelings have less ego so it will be harder to pin point and much less of a concern at all, and actually people who are in that "love the world for what it is" stage, probably have unknowingly brought their ego into line, and are enjoying the benefits from that, ie the peace "from" mind/ego.

That's why if I ever see a person in that positive conscious state, I never mention the nwo or conspiracy theories to them. Ruining that kind of innocent positive vibration is a very negative thing to do, why introduce them to fear and hope when they are already living in the present moment and loving it, ya know.