Point of masonry?

[getmeout]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?
Would you consider it some sort of spiritual path? Explain please.

[sukyspook]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?
Would you consider it some sort of spiritual path? Explain please.


My own perceptions of Masonry thus far - and I mean no offence with this:

Freemasonry appears to be an 'enabling' tool of those who would 'rule the world'....

it appears to work on false ego manipulation/rewards/awards to enable the organisation to be 'used' by occult/rich/power hungry men to capture total control of and rule the world. I can hear British Masons roar with laughter at that - but I believe it is possible for any Mason to attend any lodge around the world and hence, peer to peer networking lol??

It appears to be a mutual appreciation society/'old boys' network for local, national and international corporate aspirants - you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours...(a very important part of the global control agenda).

It appears to enable secret agendas/deals to be implemented under the noses of the 'profane' ie non masons at local, national and international level. It's a society with secrets, remember....false ego rewards for no questions asked maybe???

and a society with secrets is surely to enable an advantage to be maintained over non-members aka profane??

Behind the front of charity and good works, which I believe many Masons probably primarily join for in the first place....

If I was a bloke I wouldn't touch Masonry with a barge pole. I believe in a Divine Creator of all things aka a Most High God, not an Architect.....who in the 'job description'/contract should ultimately be answerable to his superior as in any hierarchy surely?

No offence to Masons but those are some perceptions I have that I can't ignore....and I'm no saint - even by buying and selling within the Maritime Admiralty Law/Mystery Babylon system I'm as damned as the next person lol!!

Truth is though, to join Masonry requires a conscious decision.

Humanity, however, has been tricked into Babylon....and I hope trying to extricate oneself and others will count for something when I go to meet my Maker!!

Revelation 18:3-5 (KJV)

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

[elirien]

I'm not a mason. But as far as I have read and researched it looks like a slowed down version of learning how to summon spirits like King Solomon did years before and being a cash cow for the lodge (at least today).

What's the point? I can't see even one. If you want to read about such things there is scribd.com and loads of torrents with their literature. You want to hang out with men who make rituals? Go to a lodge. I prefer to read at home and go to the Bosphorus to have myself some coffee with some of my buddies. You want to "go spiritual"? Fast for some days and meditate (in any form). You don't need a place that you pay for.

[slartibartfast]

... and being a cash cow for the lodge (at least today).

Now that is good.....:D

[boots]

I'm not a mason. But as far as I have read and researched it looks like a slowed down version of learning how to summon spirits like King Solomon did years before and being a cash cow for the lodge (at least today).

What's the point? I can't see even one. If you want to read about such things there is scribd.com and loads of torrents with their literature. You want to hang out with men who make rituals? Go to a lodge. I prefer to read at home and go to the Bosphorus to have myself some coffee with some of my buddies. You want to "go spiritual"? Fast for some days and meditate (in any form). You don't need a place that you pay for.

Exactly elirien, what's the pont of trying to find your spirituality in something outside of yourself. When it is all within.

OMG it's just like any organized religion of today.. Pass the collection plate please. Crude but true.

[thelonious]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?
Would you consider it some sort of spiritual path? Explain please.

The original point of Freemasonry seems to have been to create a safe place where freethinkers could come together to explore spiritual and philosophical questions outside of the jurisdiction and domain of the established and ruling church.

Today, it has evolved into a charitable social club.

[boots]

]The original point of Freemasonry seems to have been to create a safe place where freethinkers could come together to explore spiritual and philosophical questions outside of the jurisdiction and domain of the established and ruling church.
[/B]
Today, it has evolved into a charitable social club.


Shit that sounds like this forum and guess what!! No organized religion involved here either and fuck me it's free.

.

[thelonious]

Shit that sounds like this forum and guess what!! No organized religion involved here either and fuck me it's free.




That's true. But there wasn't any Internet in the 1600's, and the church's insistence on torturing people that disagreed with them created the necessity of secret clubs if there was to be any interaction between people like those who are members of this forum.

[grandsecretary]

Thank God, Free Masonry remains a religious fraternity. If it is not, then it is merely an aimless and expensive social club, of little or no use to either man or beast.

[thelonious]

Thank God, Free Masonry remains a religious fraternity. If it is not, then it is merely an aimless and expensive social club, of little or no use to either man or beast.

I disagree (surprise!).

While traditional Freemasonry is quasi-religious, Grand Orient style Freemasonry is secular, but certainly not aimless. Instead of taking obligations to keep traditions and rules of the Grand Lodge, Grand Orient Masons take obligations to promote the causes of liberty, justice, environmental awareness, equality, etc., which is hardly aimless or a waste of time.

[grandsecretary]

I disagree (surprise!).

While traditional Freemasonry is quasi-religious, Grand Orient style Freemasonry is secular, but certainly not aimless. Instead of taking obligations to keep traditions and rules of the Grand Lodge, Grand Orient Masons take obligations to promote the causes of liberty, justice, environmental awareness, equality, etc., which is hardly aimless or a waste of time.

When you say traditional freemasonry I assume that you mean the Moderns form of freemasonry? What does "quasi-religious" mean please?

"Take obligations?" What does this mean please?

[thelonious]

When you say traditional freemasonry I assume that you mean the Moderns form of freemasonry? What does "quasi-religious" mean please?

"Quasi-religious" in that potential candidates are required to affirm belief in the existence of God, religious allusions occuring in the rites of initiation including readings from Scripture, Lodges being opened and closed in prayer, and so forth.


"Take obligations?" What does this mean please?

In Freemasonry, candidates place their hands upon the Holy Book and obligate themselves to perform certain duties, and abstain from certain vices.

[elirien]

Now that is good.....:D

thank you :D

Exactly elirien, what's the pont of trying to find your spirituality in something outside of yourself. When it is all within.

OMG it's just like any organized religion of today.. Pass the collection plate please. Crude but true.

It's a nice paradox and so simple too.

[grandsecretary]

"Quasi-religious" in that potential candidates are required to affirm belief in the existence of God, religious allusions occuring in the rites of initiation including readings from Scripture, Lodges being opened and closed in prayer, and so forth.

In Freemasonry, candidates place their hands upon the Holy Book and obligate themselves to perform certain duties, and abstain from certain vices.

But that is not what happens in what you call traditional Freemasonry (and I am still assuming that you mean the Moderns form of freemasonry here unless you correct me, please do so if I am making a wrong assumption).

Moderns candidates have not been obliged to affirm a belief in God since the Anderson Constitutions of 1723. As just one recent example, Lord Northampton, Immediate Past Pro Grand Master, a leading Buddhist who does not believe in God, at all.

As a matter of fact, Anderson requires a belief in "a supreme being", not "The Supreme Being" i.e. God. He requires the use of a "Volume of the Sacred Law", not a Holy Bible. Candidates do not swear Sacred Masonic Oaths, but "take an obligation" which is merely a promise with no guarantee or sanction, and their promises are merely to keep inviolate the secrets of the 1720/1730 Moderns rituals, nothing whatsoever to do with the environment (no mention of it) equality, justice or anything else so worthy.

The Orients have watered the religious content down even further, practically to nothing, but do refer to justice equality etc., very good too. But, no Supreme Being, no God, no Bible, no Oaths, no Religion, no sanctions. In other words, IMHO, not Freemasonry. A social club.

I accept that the Orients club is made up of men and women who promise certain things that benefit society at large, but there is no system of policing or sanctions if promises are not kept.

Our Free Masonry, traditional Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry is, as a matter of fact, a religious fraternity requiring two key things:

Strict adherence to the Ancient Landmarks of a Free Mason traditionally handed down to us since time immemorial;
the swearing of Sacred Religious Masonic Oaths that the Landmarks of a Free Mason will be applied and adhered to, calling upon God as witness and the loss of the immortal soul as the penalty.

That is what we consider to be Free Masonry. I hope that this explains where we are coming from.

[thelonious]

As a matter of fact, Anderson requires a belief in "a supreme being", not "The Supreme Being" i.e. God.

There obviously cannot be more than one "supreme being", lest the word "supreme" be meaningless.



the swearing of Sacred Religious Masonic Oaths that the Landmarks of a Free Mason will be applied and adhered to, calling upon God as witness and the loss of the immortal soul as the penalty.



I am here reminded of something written by Waite in his encyclopedia. He denounced an order (I don't remember which one) for imposing an obligatory penalty involving the loss of the immortal soul. Waite's reasoning was that traditional Freemasonry carries symbolic physical penalties, not immortal ones, and issued the verdict that any Order requiring the candidate to assent to sacrifice the immortal soul is by that very nature a dangerous fraud.

I heartily concur.

[grandsecretary]

There obviously cannot be more than one "supreme being", lest the word "supreme" be meaningless.





I am here reminded of something written by Waite in his encyclopedia. He denounced an order (I don't remember which one) for imposing an obligatory penalty involving the loss of the immortal soul. Waite's reasoning was that traditional Freemasonry carries symbolic physical penalties, not immortal ones, and issued the verdict that any Order requiring the candidate to assent to sacrifice the immortal soul is by that very nature a dangerous fraud.

I heartily concur.

But Waite is a Moderns Freemason trying to justify Anderson and his freemasonry. We should not be surprised at this.

The physical penalties are graphic illustrations of situations where the immortal soul is lost. For instance:

"... having the throat cut across ... the body buried in the sands of the sea where the tide regularly ebbs and flows twice in the twenty four hours, and not in consecrated ground ... "

is not an actual threat of a physical assault and death, it is a graphic illustration of a situation where the soul is lost forever, never buried in consecrated ground but washed back and forth by the tide until it disappears forever. It could not be clearer, that is what the penalty in the obligation actually tells you, and Waite, in words of one syllable.

No Sacred Oaths,with the penalties that you obviously promised without any consideration of what they really mean - no Free Masonry.

[watson_k]

The word comes from:
The Chaldean word 'imga' means wise, holy and learned. The Semites, who came after transformed the word "imga" to "mag" to suit their articulation. From the word "mag" (belonging to the Assyrian branch) you get the words, Mason, Magic and Imagination. So the first Masons were wise, priest like and revered men.

Mason now means builder, but these arn't of the hard labour kind. They are mental builders. Construction wrought by thought imagination. Magic is the skillful use of the imaginative faculty, so the original Masons were Magicians.

In connection with the Scottish Rite, and the York rite Masonry, by Albert Churchward 'Arcana of Freemasonry':

Chevalier Ramsay stated that modern Masonry had its beginning in the Society of Architects founded in Scotland under the protection of King Robert Bruce, and the title of ‘Ancient and Accepted Masons of the Scottish Rite’ may have possibly been formed in Scotland there and then; but if that is so, we must trace the origin of this to the Order of Knights Templar, who fled to Scotland, and through them to the ancient Mysteries practiced in the East. From whence did these Templars receive them? It is well known that one of the charges made against Jacques de Molay and his associates was that ‘they used sacred rites in their initiation.” Their four oaths are well known, but who knew their rites of initiation? The aim of the Society of Architects was to perpetuate the ancient order of the Temple, and they continued to use their initiations of members, symbols, signs, and some parts of the initiatory rites, which had been obtained in the East, but they only knew three degrees out of the seven lesser and ten greater. The next question is: From whence did the Templars receive those symbols, and their esoteric meaning, in which we plainly trace the doctrines of the old Egyptians? No doubt from the Christians, who, like the Emperor Julian, the Bishop Sinnesius, Clement of Alexandria, and many other philosophers, had been initiated into some of the mysteries by the Priests of Egypt before being converted to Christianity. In this way we can trace how part of the religious mysteries of Egypt, signs and symbols, etc., came to Scotland.

About the York Rite Masonry:

"As regards the origin from the Druids, I have given in ‘Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man’ the proofs of the origin of the Druids, and where they came from. They were High Priests of Egypt, who left the mother country at the early part of the Solar Cult, and were therefore well versed both in the seven Lesser Mysteries and the ten Greater Mysteries; and these practiced their religious rites in England until the edict of Canute prohibited their open worship. Canute reigned from 1015 to 1036. To evade persecution they resorted to private meetings and secret celebrations. I do not entertain any doubt that they formed the first so-called ‘Lodges’ in England, as a cloak to screen their religious rites and ceremonies, and to keep them as pure as they had received them originally from their parent sources in Egypt. Many of these old Druid Priests joined the Christian Church, and were the so-called Culdees, but although they had joined the Christian Church, they kept themselves very much aloof for a long period, up to the twelfth century."

"These were the last remnants of the old Druid Priests—descendants of their Egyptian brethren—who practiced the pure Eschatology of their forefathers. Gradually they all died out as a separate and distinct class, and those who remained were merged into Christianity; but up to the twelfth century at least they brought all their doctrines with them, and practiced them in secret places, in so-called Lodges. “Here we have one source of the origin of Freemasonry, both in the Lesser Mysteries (seven degrees) and in the Greater Mysteries—so-called Higher Degrees in this country."

"The Druids, in Gaul, were mostly put to the sword, others fled to this country for protection, when the Roman Christian doctrines were brought to them. In America it was the same. As soon as the Spanish Priests arrived there they persecuted all the Solar and Stellar people, murdered their priests, overthrew their Temples, and scattered them with fire and sword. Yet there is sufficient evidence left in their Signs, Symbols, and writings on the wall which may prove my contention that all these had the same Eschatology, signs, symbols, and rites as the Old Egyptians, from whence they came, and that all these are analogous to our own with really very little innovation, considering the many thousands of years that these have been handed down from country to country, and generation to generation, as we must acknowledge to be the case if we study the history of the human past."

[thetonic]

so the original Masons were Magicians.


bingo!

[grandsecretary]

The word comes from:
The Chaldean word 'imga' means wise, holy and learned. The Semites, who came after transformed the word "imga" to "mag" to suit their articulation. From the word "mag" (belonging to the Assyrian branch) you get the words, Mason, Magic and Imagination. So the first Masons were wise, priest like and revered men.

Thank you for your references to Free Masonry pre-Moderns (Anderson Constitutions of 1723), and your references to the wise, holy and learned Priesthood, which provides information from a basis of independently expressed knowledge, and not self-interested prejudice.

Unlike the Moderns form of freemasonry, post 1723, The Grand Lodge at York has re-instated, maintains and promulgates the original Anglo-Saxon Masonic Priesthood with its religious Masonic Rituals not available elsewhere.

To answer the original questions:

A Free Mason is a man who is deeply religious, truly believing in God and the immortality of souls, without evasion, equivocation or mental reservation of any kind. Free Masons swear Sacred Oaths of Masonic secrecy calling upon God as their witness to the truth of the Oaths, the penalties for falsehood being, without question, the loss of the immortal soul, something that no true religious Free Mason would even dare to contemplate.

For this reason a true Free Mason knows that he can trust the word of his Fellow Free Mason implicitly and without question. He also knows that his Fellows are tested at every step along the road to Masonic Priesthood, and throughout their religious life. Any less, and a man cannot be considered to be a true and trusty Free Mason.

No Sacred Oaths, plus the original rituals of a Free Mason, including the Masonic Priesthood - no Free Masonry.

No Sacred Masonic Oaths - no Priesthood; no Masonic Priesthood - no Free Masonry. This is clearly in the history and rituals but many choose to ignore what is not convenient to their raison d'etre.

Free Masonry = absolute trust in your Fellows, guaranteed by a sincere belief in God Himself and the absolute fear of the consequences of a betrayal.

The benefits are obvious.

That is true Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, as it was, is and shall be. I hope that this answers the question, truthfully.

PS: Suggested research: The pre and post Druidic Christian Céli Dé Masonic Monks at York, Christian Priests to King Athelstane, who built the Abbey of St Peter, the forerunner of the York Minster.

[elirien]

"... having the throat cut across ... the body buried in the sands of the sea where the tide regularly ebbs and flows twice in the twenty four hours, and not in consecrated ground ... "

grandsecretary; isn't this the most basic form of fear mongering? better question: would you let your children or any loved one take such oaths of (mental) death?

[grandsecretary]

"... having the throat cut across ... the body buried in the sands of the sea where the tide regularly ebbs and flows twice in the twenty four hours, and not in consecrated ground ... "

grandsecretary; isn't this the most basic form of fear mongering? better question: would you let your children or any loved one take such oaths of (mental) death?

Yes, and yes.

Genesis 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

Exodus 1:21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

14:31 And when the Israelites saw the great power the Lord displayed against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord and put their trust in him and in Moses his servant.

20:18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

Leviticus 19:14 "'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 5:29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

6:1,2 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.

6:13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.

6:24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.

9:19 I feared the anger and wrath of the Lord, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the Lord listened to me.

10:12-13 And now, O Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

10:20 Fear the Lord your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name.

31:12 Assemble the people--men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns--so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.

31:13 Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."

Joshua 4:23,24 For the Lord your God dried up the Jordan before you until you had crossed over. The Lord your God did to the Jordan just what he had done to the Red Sea when he dried it up before us until we had crossed over. He did this so that all the peoples of the earth might know that the hand of the Lord is powerful and so that you might always fear the Lord your God."

24:14 "Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.

1 Samuel 12:14,15 If you fear the Lord and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God--good! But if you do not obey the Lord, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

12:24 But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you.

2 Samuel 23:3-4 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,

23:4 he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

1 Chronicles 16:25-26 For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

2 Chronicles 17:9,10 They taught throughout Judah, taking with them the Book of the Law of the Lord; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people. The fear of the Lord fell on all the kingdoms of the lands surrounding Judah, so that they did not make war with Jehoshaphat.

20:29 The fear of God came upon all the kingdoms of the countries when they heard how the Lord had fought against the enemies of Israel.

Nehemiah 5:9 So I continued, "What you are doing is not right. Shouldn't you walk in the fear of our God to avoid the reproach of our Gentile enemies?

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

1:8-9 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.

2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

23:13-15 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him.

28:28 And he said to man, 'The fear of the Lord--that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.'"

Psalms 2:11 Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling.

15:1-4 Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary? Who may live on your holy hill? He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, ... who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord,

19:9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous.

22:23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

25:12-14 Who, then, is the man that fears the Lord? He will instruct him in the way chosen for him. He will spend his days in prosperity, and his descendants will inherit the land. The Lord confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.

31:19 How great is your goodness, which you have stored up for those who fear you, which you bestow in the sight of men on those who take refuge in you.

33:8-9 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the people of the world revere him. For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

33:18-19 But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love, to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine.

34:7-11 The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them. Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him. Fear the Lord, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing. The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing. Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

36:1-2 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.

40:3 He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the Lord.

52:5-7 Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin: He will snatch you up and tear you from your tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living. The righteous will see and fear; they will laugh at him, saying, "Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others!"

55:18-19 He ransoms me unharmed from the battle waged against me, even though many oppose me. God, who is enthroned forever, will hear them and afflict them - men who never change their ways and have no fear of God.

60:4 But for those who fear you, you have raised a banner to be unfurled against the bow.

61:5 For you have heard my vows, O God; you have given me the heritage of those who fear your name.

65:8 Those living far away fear your wonders; where morning dawns and evening fades you call forth songs of joy.

76:7-8 You alone are to be feared. Who can stand before you when you are angry? From heaven you pronounced judgment, and the land feared and was quiet -

76:11-12 Make vows to the Lord your God and fulfill them; let all the neighboring lands bring gifts to the One to be feared. He breaks the spirit of rulers; he is feared by the kings of the earth.

85:9 Surely his salvation is near those who fear him, that his glory may dwell in our land.

86:11Teach me your way, O Lord, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name.

89:7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.

90:11 Who knows the power of your anger? For your wrath is as great as the fear that is due you.

96:4-5 For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;

103:13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;

103:17-18 But from everlasting to everlasting the Lord's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children - with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey his precepts.

111:5 He provides food for those who fear him; he remembers his covenant forever.

111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

112:1-2 Praise the Lord. [b] Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who finds great delight in his commands. His children will be mighty in the land; the generation of the upright will be blessed.

115:11 You who fear him, trust in the Lord-- he is their help and shield.

115:13 he will bless those who fear the Lord-- small and great alike.

119:120 My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws.

128:1-4 Blessed are all who fear the Lord, who walk in his ways. You will eat the fruit of your labor; blessings and prosperity will be yours. Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your sons will be like olive shoots around your table. Thus is the man blessed who fears the Lord.

130:3-4 If you, O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared.

145:19-20 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them. The Lord watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.

147:11 the Lord delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

1:29-31 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord, since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.

2:1-5 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

3:7-8 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.

8:13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

10:27 The fear of the Lord adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short.

14:2 He whose walk is upright fears the Lord, but he whose ways are devious despises him.

14:16 A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless.

14:26-27 He who fears the Lord has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.

15:16 Better a little with the fear of the Lord than great wealth with turmoil.

15:33 The fear of the Lord teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honour.

16:6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil.

19:23 The fear of the Lord leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

22:4 Humility and the fear of the Lord bring wealth and honor and life.

23:17-18 Do not let your heart envy sinners, but always be zealous for the fear of the Lord. There is surely a future hope for you, and your hope will not be cut off.

24:21-22 Fear the Lord and the king, my son, and do not join with the rebellious, for those two will send sudden destruction upon them, and who knows what calamities they can bring?

28:14 Blessed is the man who always fears the Lord, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.

29:25 Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe.

31:30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.

Ecclesiastes 7:16-18 Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise-- why destroy yourself? Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool-- why die before your time? It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.

8:12-13 Although a wicked man commits a hundred crimes and still lives a long time, I know that it will go better with God-fearing men, who are reverent before God. Yet because the wicked do not fear God, it will not go well with them, and their days will not lengthen like a shadow.

12:13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

Isaiah 8:12-13 Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy [f]; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread,

11:2-3 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him -- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord -- and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.

33:6 He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the Lord is the key to this treasure.

50:10 Who among you fears the Lord and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God.

59:19 From the west, men will fear the name of the Lord, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the Lord drives along.

Jeremiah 5:22-24 Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence? I made the sand a boundary for the sea, an everlasting barrier it cannot cross. The waves may roll, but they cannot prevail; they may roar, but they cannot cross it. But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away. They do not say to themselves, 'Let us fear the Lord our God, who gives autumn and spring rains in season, who assures us of the regular weeks of harvest.'

26:19 Did not Hezekiah fear the Lord and seek his favor? And did not the Lord relent, so that he did not bring the disaster he pronounced against them?

32:39-40 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

Daniel 6:26-27 "I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel. "For he is the living God and he endures forever; his kingdom will not be destroyed, his dominion will never end. He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions."

Jonah 1:15-16 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm. At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to him.

Zephaniah 3:7 I said to the city, 'Surely you will fear me and accept correction!' Then her dwelling would not be cut off, nor all my punishments come upon her. But they were still eager to act corruptly in all they did.

Malachi 1:14 For I am a great king," says the Lord Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.

3:5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty.

Luke 1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.

8:24-25 He got up and rebuked the wind and the raging waters; the storm subsided, and all was calm. "Where is your faith?" he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him."

12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?

Acts 7:30-32 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.

10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Phillipians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.

12:21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."

1 Peter 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

3:14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."

Revelation 14:6-7 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: "Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great!"

Religious peoples, not just Christians, are God fearing every minute of every day. That is what religion requires. Religion is a set of God's moral rules laid down by Him in the Holy Book, with severe consequences when the rules are broken. Not a very modern view, but true nonetheless. Less religion means fewer true Free Masons or alternatively the progressive liberalisation of the rules of freemasonry to such an extent that it has become completely meaningless.

I do have respect for the position of the Orients because at least they are honest in their stated views. They make promises to be good people within a secular moral framework. This is on a similar level to the promises made by the Boy Scouts.

"Quasi" - seemingly but not really. (SOURCE: Oxford English Dictionary)

Now I agree with thelonious here. What he calls "traditional" freemasonry, meaning the Moderns, is clearly quasi-religious. That means pretending to be religious when it is not.

Our contention is this. If true Free Masonry was and is also truly religious, without evasion, equivocation or mental reservation of any kind, then watering it down to become quasi-religious means that it is also watered down to become quasi-Masonic.

"Deuteronomy 6:13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name."

[spock]

a true Free Mason knows that he can trust the word of his Fellow Free Mason implicitly and without question.

stick your hand in the fire ..............it won't hurt...........honest. :D

how hard is it to get promoted from the "Charity" division to the full on satanist leauge?

[grandsecretary]

stick your hand in the fire ..............it won't hurt...........honest. :D

how hard is it to get promoted from the "Charity" division to the full on satanist leauge?

Do I detect just the teeniest measure of cynicism here? Try reading and understanding the postings, and then try again. :(

[boots]

"... having the throat cut across ... the body buried in the sands of the sea where the tide regularly ebbs and flows twice in the twenty four hours, and not in consecrated ground ... "

grandsecretary; isn't this the most basic form of fear mongering? better question: would you let your children or any loved one take such oaths of (mental) death?

Freemasonary in ALL it's forms is pure mind control. I have to laugh at the little children attitude "yes,and yes" :rolleyes:

God fearing, Geezz :rolleyes:

[grandsecretary]

Freemasonary in ALL it's forms is pure mind control. I have to laugh at the little children attitude "yes,and yes" :rolleyes:

God fearing, Geezz :rolleyes:

Your second sentence sums up your level of intellect. "God fearing" immediately followed by a blasphemous expletive. What a pillock!

[spock]

Do I detect just the teeniest measure of cynicism here? Try reading and understanding the postings, and then try again. :(

yea no and no :D

[grandsecretary]

yea no and no :D

Too much exercise?

[elirien]

Your second sentence sums up your level of intellect. "God fearing" immediately followed by a blasphemous expletive. What a pillock!

well at least he doesn't point sharp objects at peoples throats in the name of God.

couldn't resist and was quite too easy.

[lightgiver]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?
Would you consider it some sort of spiritual path? Explain please.

To protect secrets;) and Bloodlines.

In fact have you noticed GSs Pupils on his pic.?:D A bit reppie if you ask me.Ha Ha.

[boots]

Your second sentence sums up your level of intellect. "God fearing" immediately followed by a blasphemous expletive. What a pillock!

WTF "Geezzz" A blasphemous expletive. Your a fruitcake. I guess that's what happens eventually to pillocks like you Blandsecretary. It's all the symbols that Freemasons surround themselves with, it soon turns you into a raving lunatic.

This makes a good case for not becoming a freemason. Thats the point. It's mind control.

.

.

[bornagain]

In my honest opinion it's a bunch of boys who are bored with their lives so they join a club to feel special about themselves, to feel that they are in control, and rule everything. After the "cool" initiation ceremonies they join more clubs that practice interesting sexual fetishes and they believe that they are spiritually higher than the rest of us. PATHETIC!!!!!! :rolleyes:

btw...do not waste your time attacking me I have researched enough about freemasonry to come up with my own conclusion that it is BULLSHIT, but I must admit in the albert pikes book they have SOME nice ideas, but honestly what good have they done for us?

:)


~Born Again

[grandsecretary]

well at least he doesn't point sharp objects at peoples throats in the name of God.

couldn't resist and was quite too easy.

One is a cheap, gratuitous insult towards people who hold sincere religious beliefs and the other has a sincere religious purpose in order to illustrate the importance of being truthful, and trusted. Too easy, may tell you something.

[grandsecretary]

In my honest opinion it's a bunch of boys who are bored with their lives so they join a club to feel special about themselves, to feel that they are in control, and rule everything. After the "cool" initiation ceremonies they join more clubs that practice interesting sexual fetishes and they believe that they are spiritually higher than the rest of us. PATHETIC!!!!!! :rolleyes:

btw...do not waste your time attacking me I have researched enough about freemasonry to come up with my own conclusion that it is BULLSHIT, but I must admit in the albert pikes book they have SOME nice ideas, but honestly what good have they done for us?

:)


~Born Again

I say the same to you. Please read threads before you comment.

You have been told, in words that nobody with any intelligence could misunderstand, that Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, as represented by The Grand Lodge at York (formally constituted AD 926), is a deeply religious brotherhood which includes a religious Priesthood.

You then use a one word profanity to describe it and then, by mentioning Albert Pike, go on to demonstrate that you know less than nothing about this serious subject.

Unless you are prepared to read and digest even the most basic information about Free Masonry, which has been freely posted here now for several months, why would you wish to embarrass yourself so publicly by demonstrating such a woeful level of ignorance? Researched freemasonry? Where from, a junior grade lunatic asylum?

Free Masonry is a religious brotherhood dating back to time immemorial which has contributed massively to the building of great nations, including that of The United States of America.

What have you done? Wasted the brain that God gave you.

[elirien]

One is a cheap, gratuitous insult towards people who hold sincere religious beliefs and the other has a sincere religious purpose in order to illustrate the importance of being truthful, and trusted. Too easy, may tell you something.

Which one is a good willed religious belief? You saw that as an insult. I just see it as a sound and an expression (with no context). You know that real Christianity is not the idolization of Jesus of Nazareth. I also recall that Jesus of Nazareth didn't intentionally point a sharp object at helpless and ignorant people.

Look, you see this topic as an attempt to change your mind which is quite obvious. Do you really believe that people do care that much about you? This is not an attack or insult. Just a query or question. Do you really believe that when you die that you will go to another lodge where they point astral sharp objects at your astral body?

It is simple. That's why it is beautiful. Every lodge has a door where you can go out or in. Every oath can be made or rebuked. Choice my friend. You can see the Creator/Allah/God in everything. Or you can see it just in fancy pictures and feminine dressed people. The important point here is why you are doing what you are doing. I can see no building or social organization that could better myself. Only myself can better myself. It is again choice given by the Creator.

The most important point in this topic is why masonry right now and not why masonry for you right now.

As a wise man told me and others years before "take yourself out of the picture and there only remains the creator" (it sounds better Turkish though I have to admit :D).

[stewart edwards]

Only myself can better myself.Indeed. This is a fundamental truth.

The most important point in this topic is why masonry right nowEasy piezy - I have done it on my own, but having more immediate access to others who have been there, done that and got the t-shirt would have been handy. Though I sadly accept that this is alien to many lodges and masons. Sadly the new age has few true inspirers and people who truly understand metaphysics, while the martial arts is seen by many in the west as a mere self defense sport. Masonry, or at least those parts of it that have a genuine interest in such matters, are perhaps best placed to help those who seek it, at this point in time, in the West.

Elirien your own culture must have its own metaphysical societies, most cultures do in one form or another. And there is a good reason for that.

[elirien]

Indeed. This is a fundamental truth.

Easy piezy - I have done it on my own, but having more immediate access to others who have been there, done that and got the t-shirt would have been handy. Though I sadly accept that this is alien to many lodges and masons. Sadly the new age has few true inspirers and people who truly understand metaphysics, while the martial arts is seen by many in the west as a mere self defense sport. Masonry, or at least those parts of it that have a genuine interest in such matters, are perhaps best placed to help those who seek it, at this point in time, in the West.

Elirien your own culture must have its own metaphysical societies, most cultures do in one form or another. And there is a good reason for that.

Oh yes man. But I know what they make out of people if you mean the branches of the one we are speaking of right now. The local originated ones are as diverse as any. but most are centralized for more control.

stewart you shouldn't assess these topics with yourself in it. Be "the third eye" in this matter. objectify the subject.

[thelonious]

btw...do not waste your time attacking me I have researched enough about freemasonry to come up with my own conclusion that it is BULLSHIT, but I must admit in the albert pikes book they have SOME nice ideas, but honestly what good have they done for us?



Actually, instead of attacking you, I will say that for the most part I agree with you. The main problem with Masonry is that too many Masons ignore the Masonic teachings. When they do that, they don't do anyone any good, including themselves.

Another problem is that people (non-Masons0 tend to group Masons together, which is understandable, but leads to misunderstandings. It's not fair to lump together people who try to follow those teachings with other people who are just membership-card-carriers, but act in opposition to the teachings. Even though Masonry is a "group", the Way is solitary, and one must walk it alone.

[grandsecretary]

Which one is a good willed religious belief? You saw that as an insult. I just see it as a sound and an expression (with no context). You know that real Christianity is not the idolization of Jesus of Nazareth. I also recall that Jesus of Nazareth didn't intentionally point a sharp object at helpless and ignorant people.

Look, you see this topic as an attempt to change your mind which is quite obvious. Do you really believe that people do care that much about you? This is not an attack or insult. Just a query or question. Do you really believe that when you die that you will go to another lodge where they point astral sharp objects at your astral body?

It is simple. That's why it is beautiful. Every lodge has a door where you can go out or in. Every oath can be made or rebuked. Choice my friend. You can see the Creator/Allah/God in everything. Or you can see it just in fancy pictures and feminine dressed people. The important point here is why you are doing what you are doing. I can see no building or social organization that could better myself. Only myself can better myself. It is again choice given by the Creator.

The most important point in this topic is why masonry right now and not why masonry for you right now.

As a wise man told me and others years before "take yourself out of the picture and there only remains the creator" (it sounds better Turkish though I have to admit :D).

You asked me to compare the comment "God fearing" immediately followed by a blasphemous expletive, with the Masonic practices used in the Oath of an apprentice.

I answered your question. Nothing mentioned about me.

[grandsecretary]

The main problem with Masonry is that too many Masons ignore the Masonic teachings. When they do that, they don't do anyone any good, including themselves.

Totally agree with you.

[boots]

Which one is a good willed religious belief? You saw that as an insult. I just see it as a sound and an expression (with no context). .

The guy was just looking for an excuse to be insulted.:rolleyes:




You know that real Christianity is not the idolization of Jesus of Nazareth. I also recall that Jesus of Nazareth didn't intentionally point a sharp object at helpless and ignorant people..



No he didn't. SO it amazes me that Freemasons do these mind control ritual's which fly's in the face of Christianity. It's hypocritical. Dont you think?



As a wise man told me and others years before "take yourself out of the picture and there only remains the creator" (it sounds better Turkish though I have to admit :D).

Does he mean dont have FALSE idol.

.

[grandsecretary]

The guy was just looking for an excuse to be insulted.:rolleyes:






No he didn't. SO it amazes me that Freemasons do these mind control ritual's which fly's in the face of Christianity. It's hypocritical. Dont you think?





Does he mean dont have FALSE idol.

.

Not at all. I answered the question that I was asked. Nothing to do with me personally.

[thelonious]

No he didn't. SO it amazes me that Freemasons do these mind control ritual's which fly's in the face of Christianity. It's hypocritical. Dont you think?




What does Masonic ritual have to do with "mind control"? And why should freemasonry be compared with Christianity, instead of Hinduism or Sikhism? In other words, why use Christianity as a standard instead of something else?

[grandsecretary]

What does Masonic ritual have to do with "mind control"? And why should freemasonry be compared with Christianity, instead of Hinduism or Sikhism? In other words, why use Christianity as a standard instead of something else?

We must face essential truths even if these essential truths are open to interpretation, exaggeration, and misuse by those who are malevolent towards freemasonry per se.

MIND CONTROL:

Of course, freemasonry of all types alters, or should do, the way freemasons think (the mind) and feel about themselves, and their relationship with and towards the profane world. All types of freemasonry demand conformity with a "peculiar system of morality", and this requires changes in behaviour as well.

CHRISTIANITY

Until VERY recently (I believe the 1930's) the Holy Bible was the only Holy Book allowed to be used by all English freemasons as their "Volume of the Sacred Law". This rule was changed by the Moderns during the Raj in order to accommodate the initiation of Hindus and Sikhs.

Although the Moderns form of freemasonry was essentially de-Christianisation, the following was their prevailing attitude prior to the Raj liberalisation:

The Builder Magazine, June 1927 - Volume XIII - Number 6

Article: The Most High of the Craft

MASONIC MORALITY DERIVED FROM CHRISTIANITY

Without any doubt, our morality is Christian, and is only universal in the sense of our belief that it could be universal. That does not mean that it repudiates all other faiths, but on the contrary, it takes all that is good and great from every faith even as Christ did, and infinitely transcends them with Love. Then if we would know the complete nature of our Most High we should search the mind of Jesus of the Gospels.

It is very clear that our brethren of 1717 were not at all in doubt about the particular God whom Masons adore. They show this in four ways, first, by accepting, or inventing, the drama of King Solomon's Temple, secondly, by the specific signs they use for the Most High, thirdly, by the expression of their prayers, and lastly, by the acceptance of a system of morality which will only conform to the former ideas.

I hope that this puts it into context for you.

[thelonious]

MIND CONTROL:

Of course, freemasonry of all types alters, or should do, the way freemasons think (the mind) and feel about themselves, and their relationship with and towards the profane world.

I agree with you that should, but it most often doesn't, and the claim that Masonic ritual introduces "mind control" is beyond ridiculous.


All types of freemasonry demand conformity with a "peculiar system of morality", and this requires changes in behaviour as well.

Theoretically, yes. Realistically, not so much.

CHRISTIANITY

Until VERY recently (I believe the 1930's) the Holy Bible was the only Holy Book allowed to be used by all English freemasons as their "Volume of the Sacred Law". This rule was changed by the Moderns during the Raj in order to accommodate the initiation of Hindus and Sikhs.

Just for the record, I'm a proponent of "Bible only", not because I'm trying to promote sectarian Christianity in the Lodge, but simply because the legends of the Craft are derived from the Bible.

[mike martin]

Just for the record, I'm a proponent of "Bible only", not because I'm trying to promote sectarian Christianity in the Lodge, but simply because the legends of the Craft are derived from the Bible.

Interesting as the story of KST is from the Old Testament, which is taken from the Pentateuch, which is of course like Jesus, Jewish.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Interesting as the story of KST is from the Old Testament, which is taken from the Pentateuch, which is of course like Jesus, Jewish.

Mike

Yes Mike, but this might lead to confusion.

The legend of Hiram Abiff and his raising is not part of the story of King Solomon's Temple in the Old Testament, it was made up, or more accurately borrowed from elsewhere.

This allegory, and not the Temple itself, is a major key to the Moderns form of freemasonry (the Master Mason's third degree) leading on to the Royal Arch Degree, and the discovery of the "Mason's Word".

The legend of Hiram Abiff, being a Masonic addition, and not appearing in scripture, in King Solomon's Temple or elsewhere, could not therefore be considered to be either Jewish OR Christian.

[mike martin]

The legend of Hiram Abiff, being a Masonic addition, and not appearing in scripture, in King Solomon's Temple or elsewhere, could not therefore be considered to be either Jewish OR Christian.
True enough but I was only really answering thelonious's point about the Bible being Christian.

The fact that many so called masonic historians have tried to identify the Masonic allegorical character of Hiram Abiff with Biblical characters is a whole other story.

Mike

[boots]

I agree with you that should, but it most often doesn't, and the claim that Masonic ritual introduces "mind control" is beyond ridiculous.


LOL, Let's say I come around to your house on the pretext that I going to get you to give me your time and energy;) Oh yeah, and support some worthy causes:p.

AND guess what!!! your willing to do it:D Sucker. But I dont really want your money. I want your time and energy to support my cause, my religion. BUT I have a grading system for YOU to follow.

Now you come willingly knowing full well what I'm going to do....OMG this is to easy. lol.... So I stick a knife to your throat with a black hood over your head. lead you around with a noose around your neck and get you to BOW DOWN before me and swear allegiance to ME and MY god. as you see the light which is MY god. ( I have control). Along with this little ritual I'll have some symbols around which directly act on your sub conscious. You dont realize it, but I DO. Now your playing MY game, you look up to me for guidance. I have part of your thoughts in my control, Hahah and you gave them willingly.

You are supseptable to MY ideologies, intent, and ego.







Just for the record, I'm a proponent of "Bible only", not because I'm trying to promote sectarian Christianity in the Lodge, but simply because the legends of the Craft are derived from the Bible.


See above.:rolleyes:

[elirien]

No he didn't. SO it amazes me that Freemasons do these mind control ritual's which fly's in the face of Christianity. It's hypocritical. Dont you think?


And very very obvious to say the least. as far as I can see it anchors fear in disobedience like many other mind control methods. basic example from another topic: "don't lose your job or the credit card companies will get you!"



Does he mean dont have FALSE idol.

.

yes. and the most false is the "worldly cocoon" so to speak. a.k.a. "I am a banker; a wizard; a teacher; a mason" some people and sadly myself out of necessity must refer to the persona while talking about themselves.

[grandsecretary]

see above:

thelonius this is what I meant:

We must face essential truths even if these essential truths are open to interpretation, exaggeration, and misuse by those who are malevolent towards freemasonry per se.

... and they can't resist it can they?

[thelonious]

Now you come willingly knowing full well what I'm going to do....OMG this is to easy. lol.... So I stick a knife to your throat with a black hood over your head. lead you around with a noose around your neck and get you to BOW DOWN before me and swear allegiance to ME and MY god.

But I wouldn't do that, and I doubt anyone else would either. That's why I think you have a fallacy in your argument. While it is true that the ritual you describe could be defined as a type of mind control, or at least an attempt at it, what you describe is not a Masonic ritual.

In Masonry, I didn't swear allegiance to any mortal, and certainly am not going to bow down before one; I simply promised to fulfill my moral duties to myself and my fellows, which I was going to do anyway regardless of becoming a Mason.

[grandsecretary]

So I stick a knife to your throat with a black hood over your head. lead you around with a noose around your neck and get you to BOW DOWN before me and swear allegiance to ME and MY god.

No. False premise.

[lightgiver]

Point of masons= to become EVIL

[grandsecretary]

Point of masons= to become EVIL

Nah nah nah nah nah!

Very impressive.

[lightgiver]

Nah nah nah nah nah!

Very impressive.

I know it is,I actually know a Ian brown song called NAH NAH NAH.:D:D

Well the pike masons are well evil,and the other ones are not so savoury.

Not exactly setting a good example is it now.

Greed Can Never Be Satisfied.

A key aspect of greed is that greed is never satisfied no matter how much material goods are accumulated by a person. The Bible says we are but “greedy dogs” who are obsessed with material things. Greed has no purpose because it can never be satisfied. Only God can give us true purpose, true peace, and true satisfaction.

[kenny_bubb]

Only God can give us true purpose, true peace, and true satisfaction.

Simple theological question, but humour me: If God is all knowing and all powerful, how can evil exist?

[grandsecretary]

I know it is,I actually know a Ian brown song called NAH NAH NAH.:D:D

Well the pike masons are well evil,and the other ones are not so savoury.

Not exactly setting a good example is it now.

Greed Can Never Be Satisfied.

A key aspect of greed is that greed is never satisfied no matter how much material goods are accumulated by a person. The Bible says we are but “greedy dogs” who are obsessed with material things. Greed has no purpose because it can never be satisfied. Only God can give us true purpose, true peace, and true satisfaction.

You will never find me defending the odious Pike, or his freemasons, and I agree 100% with your last sentence.

[lightgiver]

Simple theological question, but humour me: If God is all knowing and all powerful, how can evil exist?

Ever heard of free will.Of course Evil exists stop typing wind up statements.

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

[luciferhorus]

Ever heard of free will.Of course Evil exists stop typing wind up statements.

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"


The Devil essentially offers the keys to the kingdoms of the world.

1; Power 2: Money and 3: esoteric knowledge,

I have all this already and share it as much as I can, however I do also have demands; I do also (just like my father, the Devil) require total submision to my will.

Domination and Submission have sexual meanings to me, which I cannot fully explain in language but which I understand experientally.

Sexually I do understand the experience of total dominaition, but I also understand total submission.

I demand nothing less than heaven on earth.

I will not negotiate; I only make demands.

The Devil has already offered me the keys to his kingdom.

I shall anyway take them by force and by the power of my will and my magick.

I am not the Devil's slave but his master.

His kingdom shall fall.

Lucifer
Fire, plague and poisoned waters

[boots]

No. False premise.


Bollocks.

[boots]

But I wouldn't do that, and I doubt anyone else would either. That's why I think you have a fallacy in your argument. While it is true that the ritual you describe could be defined as a type of mind control, or at least an attempt at it, what you describe is not a Masonic ritual.

In Masonry, I didn't swear allegiance to any mortal, and certainly am not going to bow down before one; I simply promised to fulfill my moral duties to myself and my fellows, which I was going to do anyway regardless of becoming a Mason.

Yeah right:rolleyes:


Rites and rituals of Freemasonry
The deceptive nature of Freemasonry begins with induction and membership in the lodge. When a member of the lodge wants to get someone to join the lodge, he is not allowed to ask that person to join. Instead he has his wife ask that person’s wife to have him to ask the member about the lodge. This is deliberate in order to give the devil a legal right to torment that person and his family. He opened the door himself by asking about membership in the lodge. When they join the lodge they go through an initiation ceremony. In that ceremony the initiate is bare-chested and blindfolded with a noose around his neck. He is then taken outside the lodge, they knock on the door and a person inside asks the initiate what he wants? He then answers by saying, “I want to come out of the darkness and enter into the light of freemasonry.” The initiate is then brought into the lodge still blindfolded and a dagger or sword or other sharp object is placed against his bare chest. He then swears the first of many blood oaths and curses over himself and his family. He agrees to be murdered or mutilated if the oath of the degree is violated.




Properly Prepared

http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/images/man.jpg
The Masonic Candidate
(prepared identical to the Arch Purple initiate apart from the rope)
re-produced by kind permission
After securing the initiate's undivided loyalty, the Royal Arch Purple candidate is 'made up' for initiation in a practice known within secret societies and the occult world as being 'properly prepared'. In 'The Meaning of Masonry', prominent Freemason W.L. Wilmshurst explains the significance of such a practice, saying, "If he be truly a worthy candidate, 'properly prepared' in his heart and an earnest seeker for the light, the mere fact of his entering such an atmosphere will so impress and awaken his dormant soul faculties as in itself to constitute an initiation and an indelible memory" (p. 117).
This custom is, in reality, the state of readiness the initiate obtains before receiving mystical enlightenment into a secret body. The candidate could justly be described as being properly prepared for his (counterfeit) new birth experience. Occultist Fredrick Goodman in his book 'Magical Symbols' contends: "When a man has so prepared himself as to achieve insight into the nature of the spiritual realm, then he is said to be an initiate."
The oath-bound Royal Arch Purple aspirant is prepared for initiation in typically Masonic manner, by being stripped of much of his clothes. He is divested of his coat and vest, collar and tie, shoes and socks. One shoe is then placed on candidate's left bare foot, and the legs of his trousers rolled up above the knee, his left breast being bare. The candidate is then blindfolded, and a piece of purple ribbon is fastened to the front of the candidate's shirt or other garment.
The Arch Purple lecture states: "I was neither naked nor clothed, barefooted nor shod, deprived of all moneys, means, and minerals, blindfolded, and led by the hand of a friend to a door."
SEMI-NAKED AND BAREFOOTED
This peculiar practice of stripping the candidate before initiation, whilst overtly humiliating, has a deep spiritual significance. The custom itself goes back to the time of Nimrod, the father of the ancient mysteries. The Rev. Alexander Hislop in his book 'The Two Babylons' (p. 183) explains how Nimrod, before he was cut in pieces, was "necessarily stripped" in what was "a voluntary humiliation." He then states, "When, therefore, his suffering was over, and his humiliation past, the clothing in which he was invested was regarded as a meritorious clothing, available not only for himself, but for all who were initiated in the mysteries."
This obscene rite, consequently, took on great importance within the mysteries and the occult world. Hislop, referring to a typical initiation, states, "after being duly prepared by magic rites and ceremonies, they were ushered, in a state of absolute nudity, into the innermost recesses of the temple" (p. 183).

[runciter]

I demand nothing less than heaven on earth.

I will not negotiate; I only make demands.


why make demands? just watch it happen.

there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.

[grandsecretary]

The rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry are all openly available, and in the public domain. This includes all passwords, tokens (handshakes), and words, including the Mason's Word.

So, it is pretty pointless trying to demonstrate cleverness, when it is only a matter of googleing "Masonic ritual", or visiting Toye, Kenning and Spencer's in Great Queen Street, London, or many other Masonic shops around the world, where they are freely on sale.

[kenny_bubb]

Bollocks.

It's with such rapier wit, sharp analytical thought, and eloquent debating skills, Boots shall one day rule the world.

I bow before you, my master.:)

[grandsecretary]

It's with such rapier wit, sharp analytical thought, and eloquent debating skills, Boots shall one day rule the world.

I bow before you, my master.:)

Could you imagine? :eek:

[thelonious]

The rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry are all openly available, and in the public domain. This includes all passwords, tokens (handshakes), and words, including the Mason's Word.

So, it is pretty pointless trying to demonstrate cleverness, when it is only a matter of googleing "Masonic ritual", or visiting Toye, Kenning and Spencer's in Great Queen Street, London, or many other Masonic shops around the world, where they are freely on sale.

Agreed.

Also, Boots kept talking about "Royal Arch Purple", which is not even Masonic. It's a degree in the non-Masonic Orange Order. More proof that he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

[grandsecretary]

Agreed.

Also, Boots kept talking about "Royal Arch Purple", which is not even Masonic. It's a degree in the non-Masonic Orange Order. More proof that he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

Empty vessels make the most noise I am afraid.

[thelonious]

Empty vessels make the most noise I am afraid.

True.

To get back on topic, I'm no longer convinced that there *is* a point, or at least an important one. Obviously, the biggest "point of Masonry" these days is to "get together with guys", have a good meal, and sit around smoking cigars and talking. Once in a while, have a degree, the meanings of which have long since been forgotten.

I am no longer convinced that Freemasonry is relevant. While it can be fun, and even educational at times.....I just don't think it's going to continue for much longer. Fraternal organizations like Freemasonry are an endangered species.

[grandsecretary]

True.

To get back on topic, I'm no longer convinced that there *is* a point, or at least an important one. Obviously, the biggest "point of Masonry" these days is to "get together with guys", have a good meal, and sit around smoking cigars and talking. Once in a while, have a degree, the meanings of which have long since been forgotten.

I am no longer convinced that Freemasonry is relevant. While it can be fun, and even educational at times.....I just don't think it's going to continue for much longer. Fraternal organizations like Freemasonry are an endangered species.

I was totally unconvinced, which is why we revived ... the point. We meet in Cathedral and Church premises thelonius and our Festival, where we eat together, is part of the Masonic ceremony itself. The Lodge remains open during the Festival.

I should say that ... the point ... is found within the Orders of The Holy and Royal Arch.

[thelonious]

I should say that ... the point ... is found within the Orders of The Holy and Royal Arch.

Here I agree with Crowley, he ponted out that the author of the Royal Arch was a "Kabalistic Jew"; inasmuch as there is real knowledge there, I agree with you that there is a "point"....but these days, it seems more convenient (not to mention more practical) to discover such knowledge elsewhere.

[grandsecretary]

Here I agree with Crowley, he ponted out that the author of the Royal Arch was a "Kabalistic Jew"; inasmuch as there is real knowledge there, I agree with you that there is a "point"....but these days, it seems more convenient (not to mention more practical) to discover such knowledge elsewhere.

thelonius, you are thinking of the Royal Arch degree ceremony of the Moderns here. This Moderns ritual was invented by a Roscirucian (Theophilus Desaguliers) around 1730 in order to include a discovery of a "Mason's Word" following on from it's loss in the third or Master Masons degree (also invented by the same person).

The Moderns do not have a Holy and Royal Arch (the Arch itself) or the Orders therein, which are definitely not Kabalistic.

[thelonious]

thelonius, you are thinking of the Royal Arch degree ceremony of the Moderns here. This Moderns ritual was invented by a Roscirucian (Theophilus Desaguliers) around 1730 in order to include a discovery of a "Mason's Word" following on from it's loss in the third or Master Masons degree (also invented by the same person).

The Moderns do not have a Holy and Royal Arch (the Arch itself) or the Orders therein, which are definitely not Kabalistic.

If in your estimation the Work is not Kabalistic, and does not correspond with the ancient mode of initiation into the mysteries.....what, in your opinion, would the point be?

[grandsecretary]

If in your estimation the Work is not Kabalistic, and does not correspond with the ancient mode of initiation into the mysteries.....what, in your opinion, would the point be?

All I may tell you is that it is Architecture comprising geometry. The key to eternal life.

[humito]

Freemasonry is a ritual-based organization, meaning each activity, from closed meetings to new member induction, is a performance of specific actions with value assigned by its membership.

From a psychological perspective, individuals who feel compelled to participate in elitist ritualistic activities do so to affirm self worth. It is for this reason that Freemasonry attracts individuals who lack a sense of unconditional acceptance within mainstream society, identifiable by the desire to be "free" and "accepted" individuals within a private "society."

A group of individuals seeking affirmation of self value is likely to share other related emotional disorders, therefore resulting in, even if unintentionally, patterns of unhealthy behavior or actions that are accepted by the group.

Interaction with peers outside of traditional work and family environments can be an enriching, rewarding way to improve quality of life while promoting unity and the fulfillment of worthwhile community causes. Though Freemasonry’s marketed organizational construct conveys this, the goals and objectives integrated into its following reflect an obscure secondary motive: to ensure the well-being of its members through mutual assistance. Providing a support network of mutual assistance to an emotionally deprived group of individuals seeking affirmation of value may be the aspect of a seemingly typical fraternal organization that has associated Freemasonry with a spectrum of malicious activities including organized crime, pedophilia, and murder.

Those who engage in criminal activity do so for a myriad of reasons. Psychological fulfillment of a crime is generally defined by the previous experiences or emotional status of the perpetrator. While not all criminals are considered mentally ill, many exhibit psychological traits or characteristics that may lend to a mindset more conducive to criminal behavior.

Relative to Freemasonry, traits such as self esteem issues and a desire to feel "understood" by similar individuals within a peer group may create and perpetuate an environment accepting of otherwise traditionally inappropriate behaviors. In seeking to "self medicate" through interaction with like-minded individuals, the organization may actually be increasing the participants’ desire to engage in inappropriate behaviors deemed acceptable by the group.

[lightgiver]

All I may tell you is that it is Architecture comprising geometry. The key to eternal life.

Its not done you much good as it now:D

[grandsecretary]

Its not done you much good as it now:D

You know very little about me, but I am the freest of Free Masons, and I am fortunate enough to be able to do exactly what I want to do in my life.

I am not a self-confessed miwwionaire with the added bonus of living on state benefits like you Wodney, but I always seem to have a penny more than I need.

Very happy, AND the cricket season start tomorrow. Who could possibly ask for more?

Aaaaah! Now for a nice glass of chilled wine, a film on the box, take the dog for a walk along the banks of the River Wharfe in the glorious Yorkshire Dales, followed by a good nights sleep.

[lightgiver]

You know very little about me, but I am the freest of Free Masons, and I am fortunate enough to be able to do exactly what I want to do in my life.

I am not a self-confessed miwwionaire with the added bonus of living on state benefits like you Wodney, but I always seem to have a penny more than I need.

Very happy, AND the cricket season start tomorrow. Who could possibly ask for more?

Aaaaah.

How can I live on benefits when I do not even live in the UK, ST peter of York:rolleyes:

yes I know what it feels like to have one penny more than I need but I make sure my extras go to the needy,not like the Vatican in all its splendour, pomp and ceremony,They even have shops to buy the latest robes on offer,Ha Ha,now that's what I call rather sick,and they have the audacity to walk around with Jesus on a crucifix.

and cricket is a bit boring and over hyped for my liking another distraction for the masses,a lot like the popes masses.

I will not be giving my location,put it this way it is a lot like Yorkshire but cleaner, greener and the Vino is of better quality,cheaper and is drunk like fizzy pop over here,but I do not drink so matters not to me.

and the vineyards go on for miles and miles.:D:D

[grandsecretary]

How can I live on benefits when I do not even live in the UK, ST peter of York:rolleyes:

yes I know what it feels like to have one penny more than I need but I make sure my extras go to the needy,not like the Vatican in all its splendour, pomp and ceremony,They even have shops to buy the latest robes on offer,Ha Ha,now that's what I call rather sick,and they have the audacity to walk around with Jesus on a crucifix.

and cricket is a bit boring and over hyped for my liking another distraction for the masses,a lot like the popes masses.

You crease me up lightgiver. You are so easy to wind up. Don't take it personally, you do ask for it.

[lightgiver]

You crease me up lightgiver. You are so easy to wind up. Don't take it personally, you do ask for it.

How can I be wound up,its not in my nature,I am here to fight tyranny.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

At least I amuse some one.

[boots]

All I may tell you is that it is Architecture comprising geometry. The key to eternal life.


The key to eternal satanism.

Freemasonary is mind control. For negative energy.

[ongoing_journey]

All I may tell you is that it is Architecture comprising geometry. The key to eternal life.

What bullshit! If you needed that for eternal life u would be born with a compass and square in your hand! Have you not heard anything David has said thus far? You are merely receiving that which keeps the intellectual mind busy so u can't hear your soul!

[grandsecretary]

What bullshit! If you needed that for eternal life u would be born with a compass and square in your hand! Have you not heard anything David has said thus far? You are merely receiving that which keeps the intellectual mind busy so u can't hear your soul!

So David is your God then is he? Whatever David says is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nobody dare express an opinion?

[zyphus]

Freemasonry is painfully outdated anyway. I think the huge downturn in numbers paints its own picture..

Just ask yourself: Does God read the bible?

[humito]

So David is your God then is he? Whatever David says is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nobody dare express an opinion?

I dont think anyone on the forum sees david as god or takes everything he says at face value, but he is superb at connecting dots and has helped a lot of people break free of conditioned thought and reasearch for themselves what he propounds in his theories ...............many people have done that and have discovered for themselves how the network of masonry is used worldwide by the elite............argueing the toss on its occult value and the ins and out of it is a pointless pursuit especially with 3rd degree or lower members of any of its guises as they are deliberatly mislead and because of the pschcology involved with it ( a very old mind controll trick!!)......cannot see that they are just being conditioned and trapped and ACTUALLY FEEL!
that they are bettering themseleves and that they ARE better then everyone else somehow!!!
It is annother mental prison ,but masons will defend it to the death because of their conditioning and oaths etc.....................therefore you cannot have a true discussion with them............Gransecretary you only seem to be on the forum to defend your brand of masonry............ALL you ever do is argue with people who express an alternative view to you and your brainwashed masonic mind! It is in fact you who are saying ( and do so tirelessly here,day and night!!!) that no one else should have a difference of opinion!
how hypocritical are you? lol............So masonry is your god is it with all the answers and truth??? and nobody dare question it right?

David ike among many many others!! have shown how easily our minds can be controlled and manipulated in all sorts of ways .........especially by the occcult forces used in a negative way, he urges people to discover things and think for themselves?..........does masonry ? no it tells you to follow its doctrines and perform rituals and keep its (false)"secrets"............etc etc and convinces you that there is no bigger picture ................However if you could teach yourself to think differently you could allow yourself acsess to the raising of conciousness on the planet at present..........this raising of conciousness is allowing many more people to "connect the dots" as Ike says,and its becomming obvious now to many people how we are controlled and by whom!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..........this together with the explosion of the internet is exposing masonry and how the global elite use it in its many guises .................a poor 3rd degree mason like yourself who has been brainwashed for years by it and has had nothing to offer it are amongst the thousands "worker ants" in its hive who are just there trapped in a game of so called spiritual development and are the perfect cover for them!


be free think for yourself

[grandsecretary]

Freemasonry is painfully outdated anyway. I think the huge downturn in numbers paints its own picture..

Just ask yourself: Does God read the bible?

The Grand Lodge of All England at York takes this view.

We believe that the reason for the decline of freemasonry per se, is that it has been stripped of all meaning and purpose by the Moderns form of freemasonry. We seek to replace what has been missing.

Under the jurisdiction of The United Grand Lodge of England it has reached its current low point. What some here call "mainstream" masonry now languishes at around 15% of the size that it was in 1960, in terms of membership, and the decline continues apace. It is not old-fashioned or out of date. It has simply lost its way. We need to go back to its original principles.

The answer to your question is obvious. He does not need to read what He already knows.

[grandsecretary]

I dont think anyone on the forum sees david as god or takes everything he says at face value, but he is superb at connecting dots and has helped a lot of people break free of conditioned thought and reasearch for themselves what he propounds in his theories ...............many people have done that and have discovered for themselves how the network of masonry is used worldwide by the elite............argueing the toss on its occult value and the ins and out of it is a pointless pursuit especially with 3rd degree or lower members of any of its guises as they are deliberatly mislead and because of the pschcology involved with it ( a very old mind controll trick!!)......cannot see that they are just being conditioned and trapped and ACTUALLY FEEL!
that they are bettering themseleves and that they ARE better then everyone else somehow!!!
It is annother mental prison ,but masons will defend it to the death because of their conditioning and oaths etc.....................therefore you cannot have a true discussion with them............Gransecretary you only seem to be on the forum to defend your brand of masonry............ALL you ever do is argue with people who express an alternative view to you and your brainwashed masonic mind! It is in fact you who are saying ( and do so tirelessly here,day and night!!!) that no one else should have a difference of opinion!
how hypocritical are you? lol............So masonry is your god is it with all the answers and truth??? and nobody dare question it right?

David ike among many many others!! have shown how easily our minds can be controlled and manipulated in all sorts of ways .........especially by the occcult forces used in a negative way, he urges people to discover things and think for themselves?..........does masonry ? no it tells you to follow its doctrines and perform rituals and keep its (false)"secrets"............etc etc and convinces you that there is no bigger picture ................However if you could teach yourself to think differently you could allow yourself acsess to the raising of conciousness on the planet at present..........this raising of conciousness is allowing many more people to "connect the dots" as Ike says,and its becomming obvious now to many people how we are controlled and by whom!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..........this together with the explosion of the internet is exposing masonry and how the global elite use it in its many guises .................a poor 3rd degree mason like yourself who has been brainwashed for years by it and has had nothing to offer it are amongst the thousands "worker ants" in its hive who are just there trapped in a game of so called spiritual development and are the perfect cover for them!


be free think for yourself

I am, and if we can agree on this as a principle, then we can both debate, discuss and disagree without calling upon any idols for the final unquestionable word.

[flyermay]

I am, and if we can agree on this as a principle, then we can both debate, discuss and disagree without calling upon any idols for the final unquestionable word.

David Icke is probably not saying anything new after all, he is just expanding and spreading (and he does it really well) ideas proposed by pioneers like Anthony J. Hilder, Jordan Maxwell and Milton William Cooper (killed on duty).

David Icke does not ask for anyone to blindly believe in what he says, but to look at certain facts and issues, research and contrast them, to think for yourself and to come up with your own conclusions; as opposed to a blind faith in mainstream media, unconditional acceptance of the establishment, submission to hierarchical systems and complacency with popular believes.

All I may tell you is that it is Architecture comprising geometry. The key to eternal life.

I'm really interested in this concept, but I don't really understand it. Do you think that eternal life is only achievable through the acquisition of certain knowledge? Could expand on it please?

[zyphus]

The Grand Lodge of All England at York takes this view.

We believe that the reason for the decline of freemasonry per se, is that it has been stripped of all meaning and purpose by the Moderns form of freemasonry. We seek to replace what has been missing.

You seem to get a lot of stick on here grandsecretary for one reason or another, but from what I've read from you, you seem to at least embody the positive aspects of masonry.

Under the jurisdiction of The United Grand Lodge of England it has reached its current low point. What some here call "mainstream" masonry now languishes at around 15% of the size that it was in 1960, in terms of membership, and the decline continues apace. It is not old-fashioned or out of date. It has simply lost its way. We need to go back to its original principles.

I didn't realise it had diminished to such an extent, and to be fair, I can never see it reclaiming its glory days anytime in the near future. I'm sticking to my guns by saying that its [ethos] is outdated and/or old fashioned. It stands to reason as it has been around [As we know it] for roughly 1200 years and has barely changed in its moral conduct. The one inclination I've had from (almost) every mason I've met or corresponded with, is in-flexibility. And that's the first thing that's comes to mind when I think of masonry in general. They say that a tree that flows with the wind is less likely to snap.

The answer to your question is obvious. He does not need to read what He already knows.

Has it never occured to you that you might be a droplet in the ocean? And that's a serious question..

[grandsecretary]

David Icke is probably not saying anything new after all, he is just expanding and spreading (and he does it really well) ideas proposed by pioneers like Anthony J. Hilder, Jordan Maxwell and Milton William Cooper (killed on duty).

David Icke does not ask for anyone to blindly believe in what he says, but to look at certain facts and issues, research and contrast them, to think for yourself and to come up with your own conclusions; as opposed to a blind faith in mainstream media, unconditional acceptance of the establishment, submission to hierarchical systems and complacency with popular believes.



I'm really interested in this concept, but I don't really understand it. Do you think that eternal life is only achievable through the acquisition of certain knowledge? Could expand on it please?

Yes, that is our belief, and it is fundamentally religious belief. It is a path that our Free Masons tread. It requires knowledge and works along the way. There are 7 steps. That is what I am free to tell you.

[grandsecretary]

You seem to get a lot of stick on here grandsecretary for one reason or another, but from what I've read from you, you seem to at least embody the positive aspects of masonry.



I didn't realise it had diminished to such an extent, and to be fair, I can never see it reclaiming its glory days anytime in the near future. I'm sticking to my guns by saying that its [ethos] is outdated and/or old fashioned. It stands to reason as it has been around [As we know it] for roughly 1200 years and has barely changed in its moral conduct. The one inclination I've had from (almost) every mason I've met or corresponded with, is in-flexibility. And that's the first thing that's comes to mind when I think of masonry in general. They say that a tree that flows with the wind is less likely to snap.

Has it never occured to you that you might be a droplet in the ocean? And that's a serious question..

The entire basis for moral conduct was changed drastically in 1723, the cause of its downfall. We have gone back to time immemorial, as old as time itself.

Oh yes, I am reminded of my own individual insignificance every single day.

[zyphus]

The entire basis for moral conduct was changed drastically in 1723, the cause of its downfall. We have gone back to time immemorial, as old as time itself.

Could you elaborate on that, or at least a link to research?

Oh yes, I am reminded of my own individual insignificance every single day.

God isn't insignificant..

[stewart edwards]

We have gone back to time immemorial, as old as time itself.That would be around 4000 years ago then around the time that I was helping to establish the ancient mystery schools in Egypt then?;)

[grandsecretary]

That would be around 4000 years ago then around the time that I was helping to establish the ancient mystery schools in Egypt then?;)

Stewart I cannot elaborate any further, but certainly pre-Davidic.

[grandsecretary]

Could you elaborate on that, or at least a link to research?

God isn't insignificant..

The rabidly anti-Catholic Anderson Constitutions of 1723 deliberately separated itself from the Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry that preceded it and it was de-Christianised. It became a new, and what its own members call, "product of The Enlightenment years".

The chronology may be found here.

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=30

It is fully sourced and attributed if you wish to follow it up.

In fact, Free Masonry in England was formally recognised at York in AD 926 by Royal command of King Athelstan. He granted a Royal Charter which conferred upon the Free Masons of England the right of assembly at York. He appointed his brother Prince Edwin of York to be their Grand Master. The City of York remains the location of the Chair of the Grand Master, as required by the Royal Charter, which was granted in perpetuity. Of course there were Free Masons in England prior to AD 926. King Athelstan provided them with the invaluable right of congregation as a single body. Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry cannot be separated from its religious context, which has existed since time immemorial. The religious context of genuine Free Masonry remains an essential mark of the true Free Mason.

[zyphus]

Thanks GS, bookmarked for after tea!

So it is fair to say that your lodge is more of a preservation of 'original' masonry so to speak, and not actively considered true (modern) masonry? As I have seen more than one person who claims to be a mason, claim that you are not one.

Could you clear this up for me please?

[stewart edwards]

Stewart I cannot elaborate any further, but certainly pre-Davidic.Thats ok Peter, but your response has helped me understand one issue that I couldnt get my head around re GLAE, which has now nicely fallen into place. Perhaps incorrectly into place, but it seems to fit, and I am happy to leave it there for the moment.

Just guard the old crystal(s) well.:eek: (and if I am now babbling nonsense to you Peter just put it down to middle age crisis.)

Ode to the Crystal

I was once thrown down the majestic incline,
and left dull and forgotten.
Hidden away for many a year,
ready, waiting, patiently, and begotten.

I waited patiently and silently for majesty to return,
in a dusty forgotten trunk.
Walked passed and ignored for many a year,
ready, waiting, patiently, and pure.

I sensed a tingle of delight and began to brighten once again
still trapped in my protective prison.
My guards did not know what to do with me for many a year,
as I shone out now and then, touching hearts.

They moved me here, they moved me there,
as I intermittently shone.
Slowly, silently, connecting to my ancient grid,
leaving myguards in despair.

But when the time came, my Arthur touched my soul,
and I radiated out balancing the darkness away.
My guards were now proud, my enemies friends,
as I reminded myself of the circles of life.

(c)Stewart Edwards 2009.

[flyermay]

Yes, that is our belief, and it is fundamentally religious belief. It is a path that our Free Masons tread. It requires knowledge and works along the way. There are 7 steps. That is what I am free to tell you.

Thanks GS,

By any chance, do you know if I can find more information about those 7 steps?

[grandsecretary]

Thanks GS, bookmarked for after tea!

So it is fair to say that your lodge is more of a preservation of 'original' masonry so to speak, and not actively considered true (modern) masonry? As I have seen more than one person who claims to be a mason, claim that you are not one.

Could you clear this up for me please?

Our Free Masonry is a revival of the original dating from time immemorial, and what we consider to be the true and genuine form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry. We do not concern ourselves with the opinions of others, except when they seek to publicly interfere in our private internal affairs.

English history is English history and we cannot allow The Grand Lodge of All England to be airbrushed out of history and heritage just for the convenience of the Moderns United Grand Lodge of England (1813).

[grandsecretary]

Thanks GS,

By any chance, do you know if I can find more information about those 7 steps?

Apprentice; Fellow of the Craft of Free Masonry; Mark Mason; Passed Master; Installed Master; Ark Mason; Holy Order of the Grand High Priest. It takes approximately 10 years to complete the journey in this life.

[serpentseed]

Genesis 15

8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Now look at this again as a composite symbol
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Baphomet.png

A female goat with rams legs and doves wings....But also note the reptilian scales around the mid section...As above so below in Heaven as it is on Earth....


Lucifer is the lord of the old testament thats why we say amen at the end of prayer.

The word Amen (Standard Amen Tiberian ’Amen ; Arabic: ’Amin ; “So be it; truly”) is a declaration of affirmation found in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Its use in Judaism dates back to its earliest texts. It has been generally adopted in Christian worship as a concluding formula for prayers and hymns. In Islam, it is the standard ending to Dua (supplication). Common English translations of the word amen include: “Verily”, “Truly”, “So be it”, and “Let it be”. It can also be used colloquially to express strong agreement, as in, for instance, amen to that.

There is annother meaning that goes back to Egypt:
Egypt or “Khemit” to use is proper name or "Alchem" (Alchemy or the science of spirit in matter is a derivitive from the Arabic), practised some form of sprituality that was linked to the properites of light itself. The priesthoods were the scientists and spirituality and science were seen as the same thing. To explain this it is necessary to explain all five of the stages of the sun that were linked to consciousness. From the school of Ankhnaten/Moses.

1.”Kheper” - The Driller - DAWN
2.”Ra” - The Stubborn - NOON
3.”Oon” - The Wise - AFTERNOON
4.”Aten” - The Wiser - TWILIGHT
5.”Amen” - The Hidden - DARKNESS

So let it be in darkness or so let it be done in darkness.

I was tricked into invokation by a mason.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56110

[grandsecretary]

Genesis 15

8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

Now look at this again as a composite symbol
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Baphomet.png

A female goat with rams legs and doves wings....But also note the reptilian scales around the mid section...As above so below in Heaven as it is on Earth....


Lucifer is the lord of the old testament thats why we say amen at the end of prayer.

The word Amen (Standard Amen Tiberian ’Amen ; Arabic: ’Amin ; “So be it; truly”) is a declaration of affirmation found in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Its use in Judaism dates back to its earliest texts. It has been generally adopted in Christian worship as a concluding formula for prayers and hymns. In Islam, it is the standard ending to Dua (supplication). Common English translations of the word amen include: “Verily”, “Truly”, “So be it”, and “Let it be”. It can also be used colloquially to express strong agreement, as in, for instance, amen to that.

There is annother meaning that goes back to Egypt:
Egypt or “Khemit” to use is proper name or "Alchem" (Alchemy or the science of spirit in matter is a derivitive from the Arabic), practised some form of sprituality that was linked to the properites of light itself. The priesthoods were the scientists and spirituality and science were seen as the same thing. To explain this it is necessary to explain all five of the stages of the sun that were linked to consciousness. From the school of Ankhnaten/Moses.

1.”Kheper” - The Driller - DAWN
2.”Ra” - The Stubborn - NOON
3.”Oon” - The Wise - AFTERNOON
4.”Aten” - The Wiser - TWILIGHT
5.”Amen” - The Hidden - DARKNESS

So let it be in darkness or so let it be done in darkness.

I was tricked into invokation by a mason.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56110

May we have the details? How were you tricked, by whom and where?

[watson_k]

Lucifer is the lord of the old testament thats why we say amen at the end of prayer.

You say Amen, because it's originally from the Single God worship of Amen-Ra.
Obviously without the Sun, nothing would survive and flourish on Earth. The Sun is a Light giver (just look at it).

Amen-Ra (Egyptian), Ammon-Ra (Greek). In other words when you say Amen at the end of a prayer, you invoke the God that represents the Sun. The Light-Giver (Lucifer).

Edit: I mean light-bringer, not giver...sorry (Hope you're not offended Lightgiver)

[zyphus]

Our Free Masonry is a revival of the original dating from time immemorial, and what we consider to be the true and genuine form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry. We do not concern ourselves with the opinions of others, except when they seek to publicly interfere in our private internal affairs.

English history is English history and we cannot allow The Grand Lodge of All England to be airbrushed out of history and heritage just for the convenience of the Moderns United Grand Lodge of England (1813).

O.k. Thanks for clearing that up..

But that just creates another dilemma on who to trust to express the true history of Masonry as there are clearly different motives at work here.

[runciter]

You say Amen, because it's originally from the Single God worship of Amen-Ra.
Obviously without the Sun, nothing would survive and flourish on Earth. The Sun is a Light giver (just look at it).

Amen-Ra (Egyptian), Ammon-Ra (Greek). In other words when you say Amen at the end of a prayer, you invoke the God that represents the Sun. The Light-Giver (Lucifer).

Edit: I mean light-bringer, not giver...sorry (Hope you're not offended Lightgiver)

you say only amen, not amen ra.

ra is the sun, not amon, who was associated with it only later.

amon represented "the essential and hidden", according to wikipedia.

hidden knowledge, i guess, and this leads us to the difference between bringer and giver.

i think the cathars were on the right track, the god of the old testament is satan.

[flyermay]

Apprentice; Fellow of the Craft of Free Masonry; Mark Mason; Passed Master; Installed Master; Ark Mason; Holy Order of the Grand High Priest. It takes approximately 10 years to complete the journey in this life.

Thanks again,

By the way, I was thinking about it yesterday night, and I was wondering: Doens't this believe contradicts the christian believe about eternal life?

I mean, according to your masonic believe you need to acquire certain knowledge to achieve eternal life. However, christians believe that all human beings are born with an inmortal soul, regardless of how much they know or what they practice and that they will all enjoy/suffer eternal life (some in heaven some in hell).

(Don't shoot me, it's just an honest doubt, I'm not attacking you or your believes).

[humito]

The rabidly anti-Catholic Anderson Constitutions of 1723 deliberately separated itself from the Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry that preceded it and it was de-Christianised. It became a new, and what its own members call, "product of The Enlightenment years".

The chronology may be found here.

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=30

It is fully sourced and attributed if you wish to follow it up.

In fact, Free Masonry in England was formally recognised at York in AD 926 by Royal command of King Athelstan. He granted a Royal Charter which conferred upon the Free Masons of England the right of assembly at York. He appointed his brother Prince Edwin of York to be their Grand Master. The City of York remains the location of the Chair of the Grand Master, as required by the Royal Charter, which was granted in perpetuity. Of course there were Free Masons in England prior to AD 926. King Athelstan provided them with the invaluable right of congregation as a single body. Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry cannot be separated from its religious context, which has existed since time immemorial. The religious context of genuine Free Masonry remains an essential mark of the true Free Mason.

shame you cant be a catholic anymore then ! lol

[thelonious]

I mean, according to your masonic believe you need to acquire certain knowledge to achieve eternal life.

Just for the record, there is no Masonic belief that one needs to acquire any particular type of knowledge to attain eternal life. There are probably some individual Masons who believe that, but many non-Masons believe that as well.

[flyermay]

Just for the record, there is no Masonic belief that one needs to acquire any particular type of knowledge to attain eternal life. There are probably some individual Masons who believe that, but many non-Masons believe that as well.

Thanks Thelonious. I now try to adapt each question to especific lodges or masonic practices (trying to keep away from generalistions); reason why I wrote to SG "according to your masonic believe ...", as refering to "his" believes and not to "masonic" believes in general.

So, as a mason, you don't believe that's the case?

Do you personally (outside of freemasonry)?

[watson_k]

you say only amen, not amen ra.

ra is the sun, not amon, who was associated with it only later.

amon represented "the essential and hidden", according to wikipedia.

hidden knowledge, i guess, and this leads us to the difference between bringer and giver.

i think the cathars were on the right track, the god of the old testament is satan.

Damn it. I didn't see that, lol. You're right, thanks for pointing that out. I got different opinion of whether the old testament god is satan or not, but that's just my opinion.

[watson_k]

Just for the record, there is no Masonic belief that one needs to acquire any particular type of knowledge to attain eternal life. There are probably some individual Masons who believe that, but many non-Masons believe that as well.

Is this Eternal life in there hereafter? Like a forever existing soul, or is it eternal human life?

[thelonious]

So, as a mason, you don't believe that's the case?

Do you personally (outside of freemasonry)?

I do not believe that knowledge, in itself, has anything to do with eternal life. That's not to understate the importance of acquiring knowledge. The more knowledge we have, the better people we will be if we put that knowledge into practice, and the better the world will be.

But in the big picture, in regards to eternal life, there is no fundamental difference between the wisest philosopher and the African bushman in a grass skirt with a bone in his nose. Both are people, and both are an image of the Godhead.

What we do is more important than what we think.

[thelonious]

Is this Eternal life in there hereafter? Like a forever existing soul, or is it eternal human life?

I do not believe in eternal human life because everything that has a beginning must eventually have an ending. Human life is the product of billions of years of evolution, so it in itself is not a static state of being. Humanity continues to evolve, and eventually our species (if we don't kill each other off first in our childish and foolish wars and environmental holocausts) will evolve into a more advanced species.

I personally believe in the immortality of the soul, which is not limited to the biological species through which it manifests.

[flyermay]

I do not believe that knowledge, in itself, has anything to do with eternal life. That's not to understate the importance of acquiring knowledge. The more knowledge we have, the better people we will be if we put that knowledge into practice, and the better the world will be.

But in the big picture, in regards to eternal life, there is no fundamental difference between the wisest philosopher and the African bushman in a grass skirt with a bone in his nose. Both are people, and both are an image of the Godhead.

What we do is more important than what we think.

I agree with you completely in both statements; and I wish more people thinked like you.

I have to say that as an atheist, I have my doubts about the whole concept of eternal life (though I'm currently looking at the possibility of agnosticism -and from there, how knows ;)-)

[runciter]

Damn it. I didn't see that, lol. You're right, thanks for pointing that out. I got different opinion of whether the old testament god is satan or not, but that's just my opinion.

a tribal god of war, who asks for blind obeyance and commands to exterminate other nations.

[watson_k]

a tribal god of war, who asks for blind obeyance and commands to exterminate other nations.

Isn't that Jehovah? My opinion was on Yod-He-Vau-He not that Tribal god.

[runciter]

Isn't that Jehovah? My opinion was on Yod-He-Vau-He not that Tribal god.

does he suffer of multiple personality disorder?

[watson_k]

does he suffer of multiple personality disorder?

It's the same thing as the Devil and Lucifer, they're two different things. Yod-He-Vau-He, isn't a 'He'.

[runciter]

It's the same thing as the Devil and Lucifer, they're two different things. Yod-He-Vau-He, isn't a 'He'.

i think the god of the old testament is an impostor.

both of them.

[watson_k]

i think the god of the old testament is an impostor.

both of them.

You have your opinion, I have mine. You're entitled to it. Since an impostor is someone who pretends to be someone else, Who is the real 'God' of the old testament? As I've tried to say before, YHVH is not a 'God' nor is it a 'He'or a 'She'.

[runciter]

You have your opinion, I have mine. You're entitled to it. Since an impostor is someone who pretends to be someone else, Who is the real 'God' of the old testament? As I've tried to say before, YHVH is not a 'God' nor is it a 'He'or a 'She'.

yahweh is the god of moses, yes maybe he/she/it was an hermaphrodite, i don't know.

[watson_k]

yahweh is the god of moses, yes maybe he/she/it was an hermaphrodite, i don't know.

According to Egyptian records, there was no Moses. There's examples of YHVH long before the creation of the Hebrew religion.

From Evolution of Religion:
Yod-He-Vau-He signifies the belief that there is a Super-Intelligence Who interpenetrates and exercises a guiding power over, the whole universe, but sets forth by four universal principles through which this Super-Intelligence, instead of being moved by whim or prejudice, always operates.

[runciter]

According to Egyptian records, there was no Moses. There's examples of YHVH long before the creation of the Hebrew religion.

From Evolution of Religion:

we were talking about the old testament, not egyptian records.

[watson_k]

we were talking about the old testament, not egyptian records.

You were talking about Moses. The story of Moses was that he was an Egyptian prince before helping his brothers and sisters to be saved, yet there is no record of him. Whereas there is record for the principle of YHVH, in many civilizations.

You originally said you think the Old testament God is an Impostor. I'm not disagreeing with you.

[runciter]

You were talking about Moses. The story of Moses was that he was an Egyptian prince before helping his brothers and sisters to be saved, yet there is no record of him. Whereas there is record for the principle of YHVH, in many civilizations.


we were talking about the god of the old testament, the entity that spoke to moses.

yeah it's a fairy tale, but it still influences a lot of people.


You originally said you think the Old testament God is an Impostor. I'm not disagreeing with you.


ok!

[watson_k]

we were talking about the god of the old testament, the entity that spoke to moses.

yeah it's a fairy tale, but it still influences a lot of people.

Yeah, you're right.

[stewart edwards]

Grandsecretary recently posed the question somewhere on thsi forum of what the Holy Royal Arch is. Funnily enough it is something that I have never really given much thought to. Anyhow I have just finsihed reading "The Secret Scroll" by Andrew Sinclair. It talks about the 'great heresy' of personal knowledge of God and on p242 it explains that a Royal arch mason is also initiated into the Order of Melchizedek, annoited and declared a priest. Then Sinclair (and yes we are talking Rosslyn/Kingight Templar et all here) gets interesting such an annointed person is reported "he now had the power to speak with the Word of God as Christ did, and to understand the Divine purpose."

Apologies to those masons that I am going to upset. But, lets strip this down a bit:-

1. You are only going to get the power to speak with the word of God if you really have Mastered yourself. OK they may be other ways that I dont know about, but I find it very hard to believe that you can get this simply by writing a cheque and going through a ritual.

2. And re understanding the divine purpose, well even more so, you really do have to know yourself and have passed through the veils in life to touch this.

I am probably not the most popular person in vatican circles for I know that you can touch the Divine directly (torture him, burn him I hear some say:eek:) [Do you think this qualifies me for the Popes job?;)] but it has taken me a decade of very hard and initially often painful daily inner work. It is not something that I can imagine you can "buy" or be "awarded", though clearly I could be wrong, for the path that I took is but one of many.

But I can now appreciate a bit better why the Vatican has had serious issue with Freemaons, if Freemasons have in effect been selling such degrees to anyone with money. Though I also appreciate that historically, through the inquisition that the vatican has not liked competition (side thought I wonder how it feels about the other major religions?).

Gee, if what Sinclair writes is accurate I am quite shocked, and upset given that I have been told time and time again that if you have the chequebook you can get into most oders (including HRA). Though I do appreciate that as with all things masonic, fraternal differences are likely to be huge.

geepers.

[watson_k]

Grandsecretary recently posed the question somewhere on thsi forum of what the Holy Royal Arch is. Funnily enough it is something that I have never really given much thought to. Anyhow I have just finsihed reading "The Secret Scroll" by Andrew Sinclair. It talks about the 'great heresy' of personal knowledge of God and on p242 it explains that a Royal arch mason is also initiated into the Order of Melchizedek, annoited and declared a priest. Then Sinclair (and yes we are talking Rosslyn/Kingight Templar et all here) gets interesting such an annointed person is reported "he now had the power to speak with the Word of God as Christ did, and to understand the Divine purpose."

Apologies to those masons that I am going to upset. But, lets strip this down a bit:-

1. You are only going to get the power to speak with the word of God if you really have Mastered yourself. OK they may be other ways that I dont know about, but I find it very hard to believe that you can get this simply by writing a cheque and going through a ritual.

2. And re understanding the divine purpose, well even more so, you really do have to know yourself and have passed through the veils in life to touch this.

I am probably not the most popular person in vatican circles for I know that you can touch the Divine directly (torture him, burn him I hear some say:eek:) [Do you think this qualifies me for the Popes job?;)] but it has taken me a decade of very hard and initially often painful daily inner work. It is not something that I can imagine you can "buy" or be "awarded", though clearly I could be wrong, for the path that I took is but one of many.

But I can now appreciate a bit better why the Vatican has had serious issue with Freemaons, if Freemasons have in effect been selling such degrees to anyone with money. Though I also appreciate that historically, through the inquisition that the vatican has not liked competition (side thought I wonder how it feels about the other major religions?).

Gee, if what Sinclair writes is accurate I am quite shocked, and upset given that I have been told time and time again that if you have the chequebook you can get into most oders (including HRA). Though I do appreciate that as with all things masonic, fraternal differences are likely to be huge.

geepers.


Just like a lot of Modern secret societies, they only base their Initiations, pomp and ritual off accounts of memories of Rituals and trails that are meant to be kept secret, yet they have the information of them in their books which of course they sell for a price. The whole don't throw pearls before swine thing, hasn't seemed to come in to account.

Royal arch mason is also initiated into the Order of Melchizedek, annoited and declared a priest

I don't know about that but I do know that during the Royal Arch initiation, the Mason is initiated by a Priest reading the Bible. While the initiates are kneeling around him in a circle, called a living arch.

The password of this degree is 'Raboni' signifying the Mason to overcome, and indicating the determination to overcome all all barriers of Spiritual Progress.

This is from Ancient Masonry though... Whether rich sods have taken this and manipulated it for their own reason, is another question entirely.

WHETHER the legend and history of this Degree are historically true, or but an allegory, containing in itself a deeper truth and a profounder meaning, we shall not now debate. If it be but a legendary myth, you must find out for yourself what it means. From Morals and Dogma.

[runciter]

Yeah, you're right.

i prefered the unedited version :(

i'm curious about your understanding of yhwh, i think it resembles to philip dick's valis/zebra.

[grandsecretary]

Just like a lot of Modern secret societies, they only base their Initiations, pomp and ritual off accounts of memories of Rituals and trails that are meant to be kept secret, yet they have the information of them in their books which of course they sell for a price. The whole don't throw pearls before swine thing, hasn't seemed to come in to account.



I don't know about that but I do know that during the Royal Arch initiation, the Mason is initiated by a Priest reading the Bible. While the initiates are kneeling around him in a circle, called a living arch.

The password of this degree is 'Raboni' signifying the Mason to overcome, and indicating the determination to overcome all all barriers of Spiritual Progress.

This is from Ancient Masonry though... Whether rich sods have taken this and manipulated it for their own reason, is another question entirely.

From Morals and Dogma.

The Moderns do not have a Holy Royal Arch. They have what they call the Royal Arch Degree which is an extension of the Master Mason Degree where the word of a Master Mason, lost in the third degree is re-discovered in the crypt of King Solomon's Temple. This ritual did not exist prior to c.1725/1730 when it was invented by the Rosicrucian Dr Theophilus Desaguliers.

Without the Orders of the Holy and Royal Arch there cannot be Free Masonry, in truth.

I am still waiting, and have been now for many months for a Moderns mason to tell me what the Holy and Royal Arch is? Why it is Holy? Why it is Royal? What it is? And where it may be found?

Silence.

[thelonious]

The Moderns do not have a Holy Royal Arch. They have what they call the Royal Arch Degree which is an extension of the Master Mason Degree where the word of a Master Mason, lost in the third degree is re-discovered in the crypt of King Solomon's Temple. This ritual did not exist prior to c.1725/1730 when it was invented by the Rosicrucian Dr Theophilus Desaguliers.

I must point out here that this almost certainly incorrect. Desaguliers was Grand Master of the Premiere Grand Lodge, which did not recognize the Royal Arch degree. It was the Athol Lodges who worked in the Royal Arch.

Most Masonic historians believe that the Royal Arch originated in France, which is a likely theory.



I am still waiting, and have been now for many months for a Moderns mason to tell me what the Holy and Royal Arch is? Why it is Holy? Why it is Royal? What it is? And where it may be found?

Silence.

I have already indicated that the Royal Arch is an exemplification of Kabalistic cosmogony.

[grandsecretary]

I must point out here that this almost certainly incorrect. Desaguliers was Grand Master of the Premiere Grand Lodge, which did not recognize the Royal Arch degree. It was the Athol Lodges who worked in the Royal Arch.

Most Masonic historians believe that the Royal Arch originated in France, which is a likely theory.




I have already indicated that the Royal Arch is an exemplification of Kabalistic cosmogony.

Quite right, the Moderns rejected the Orders of The Holy Royal Arch, and that remains the status quo.

We (The Grand Lodge at York) knows EXACTLY where the Holy and Royal Arch is, and it is definitely NOT in France. Your source for this guess please?

The Royal Arch Degree of the Moderns might be Kabbalistic but this is Moderns Rosicrucian Freemasonry, a ritual ceremony and nothing else. It has no meaning whatsoever except that it provides another step in your hirearchy.

Your feet are still firmly glued to the floor of that tiny back room in the Goose and Gridiron. It is no use guessing. Your Grand Lodge does not even have the rituals of a Passed Master. Because not one single person attending the meeting on the 24th June 1717 was even a Master of a Lodge they did not have the rituals and had to make them up. Well documented.

One day you will do some serious research, and then face up to the obvious.

[thelonious]

Good try. Nope. We know EXACTLY where the Holy and Royal Arch is, and it is NOT in France.

If you were not aware that Desaguliers was not an Athol, and therefore did not practice the Royal Arch (much less write it), you'll forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt.

Your source please?

Pretty much all of them. See the various essays on the Royal Arch from Ars Quatuor Coronati, as well as the works of Gould, Mackey, Coil, Waite, etc.

[stewart edwards]

Peter can I have a profane stab at this?I am still waiting, and have been now for many months for a Moderns mason to tell me what the Holy and Royal Arch is?See below

Why it is Holy?Because most people would be people who serve God. The priesthood for example. People who have a "calling".

Why it is Royal?Because it is something that Royalty can also achieve being at least at one time considered to be Divine representatives on Earth.

What it is?A link with the divine. Or for conspiracy theorists Neo connecting with God in the matrix.

And where it may be found?In your heart.

You must be true of heart and voice to access it.


Peter, please tell me that I am mistaken in my profane view.

[watson_k]

i prefered the unedited version :(

i'm curious about your understanding of yhwh, i think it resembles to philip dick's valis/zebra.

That's simply cos I can't explain it to give it proper justification, plus I have no proof, Just my minor unsubstantiated utterances :)



I have already indicated that the Royal Arch is an exemplification of Kabalistic cosmogony.

I agree, you'd need to understand the Astrological symbology behind the Kaballa, in order to see how it affects the Royal Arch Degree. I was told that the Royal Arch represents the Tabernacle erected near the ruins of the Temple. It is an
oblong square(we call this a parallelogram in the 21 century) divided into separate compartments by four veils.

The real Royal Arch may be a myth, but a myth constructed for symbolical purposes.

[runciter]

That's simply cos I can't explain it to give it proper justification, plus I have no proof, Just my minor unsubstantiated utterances :)


valis = vast active living intelligence system

zebra because of its mimetic abilities: it's everywhere, but we can't see it.

[grandsecretary]

If you were not aware that Desaguliers was not an Athol, and therefore did not practice the Royal Arch (much less write it), you'll forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt.



Pretty much all of them. See the various essays on the Royal Arch from Ars Quatuor Coronati, as well as the works of Gould, Mackey, Coil, Waite, etc.

thelonius you just do not know the answer to the questions posed, not at all. Ars Quatuor Coronati; Gould; Mackay; Coil; Waite; all Moderns with an agenda to establish the supremacy of the Rosicrucian Moderns form of freemasonry which has no history whatsoever prior to 1717, by its own admission, and YOUR insistence. The Holy and Royal Arch pre-dates the UGLE by hundreds and hundreds of years, even pre-926.

Freemasonry and its ritual connections to King Solomon's Temple is an invention of the Moderns system (including the Antients Grand Lodge which post-dated the Moderns).

[grandsecretary]

Peter can I have a profane stab at this?See below

Because most people would be people who serve God. The priesthood for example. People who have a "calling".

Because it is something that Royalty can also achieve being at least at one time considered to be Divine representatives on Earth.

A link with the divine. Or for conspiracy theorists Neo connecting with God in the matrix.

In your heart.

You must be true of heart and voice to access it.


Peter, please tell me that I am mistaken in my profane view.

Stewart, you are still using the UGLE as a yardstick where they say that freemasonry is about "knowing yourself" and where the answer to the question "Where were you first made a Mason?" is "In my heart". This is not true.

[stewart edwards]

Stewart, you are still using the UGLE as a yardstick where they say that freemasonry is about "knowing yourself" and where the answer to the question "Where were you first made a Mason?" is "In my heart". This is not true.This is what my heart has always told me Peter, long before I had any interaction with UGLE.

The path that I have taken as I stumbled and bumbled to where I am today tells me that you really do have to have that itch in your heart. Perhaps the best person to explain it is MacNulty, his words in some pages of "The Way of the Craftsman" reflect my experience pretty well.

[terrier]

hi everybody,





Grandsecretary wrote:

thelonius you just do not know the answer to the questions posed, not at all. Ars Quatuor Coronati; Gould; Mackay; Coil; Waite; all Moderns with an agenda to establish the supremacy of the Rosicrucian Moderns form of freemasonry which has no history whatsoever prior to 1717, by its own admission, and YOUR insistence. The Holy and Royal Arch pre-dates the UGLE by hundreds and hundreds of years, even pre-926.

Freemasonry and its ritual connections to King Solomon's Temple is an invention of the Moderns system (including the Antients Grand Lodge which post-dated the Moderns)

what is for you personally the difference for this two ways of masonry ?
i am a fellowcraft in spain and pretty new in masonry.did investigate for 3 years ,everything negative i could find on the net about freemasonry.
did read books and i still wanted to become one.
now i am and i got to admit,that not many masons are interested in the masonic spiritual meanings.
looking foward for your answer since the name of this thread is
point of masonry

[terrier]

to watson:
no,everybody gets out of it ,waht he wants to.
yes,for me masonry is a spiritual path and everybody is allowed to
walk him,how he wants.

to grandsecretary:
sorry,just found that on the net.

2. An organization calling itself the Grand Lodge of All England is presenting itself as a legitimate Masonic Grand Lodge in England. It claims to trace its roots to a Lodge at York, founded in 1705, which later styled itself a Grand Lodge in 1725, first named the Old Grand Lodge at York, and later the Grand Lodge of All England at York. This Grand Lodge went dormant in 1740, was revived in 1761, and went dormant again in 1791, never to meet again. On December 23, 2005, an assembly of Masons met and “reclaimed English Freemasonry on behalf of its rightful custodians.” The Grand Lodge of All England emerged and is said to be a revival of the Grand Lodge that went dormant in 1791.

It must again be stated that the Commission does not determine the regularity of a Grand Lodge; it only evaluates the facts available to determine if the entity meets the standards for recognition, as adopted by the Conference of Grand Masters of North America, and reports those findings to the member Grand Lodges of this Conference for their use.

The Commission cannot validate the claimed legitimacy of origin of the Grand Lodge of All England, since no documentation has been presented that this Grand Lodge was reinstated or reconstituted in 2005 by a recognized Masonic authority. In addition, it cannot claim exclusive territorial jurisdiction since a pact or treaty does not exist to share the jurisdiction with the United Grand Lodge of England. It is therefore the opinion of the Commission that the Grand Lodge of All England does not meet the standards for recognition.
full text at:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/allengland.htm

[oiram]

Point of masonry? = Monopoly status for a corrupt system!

[boots]

Point of masonry? = Monopoly status for a corrupt system!










:D

The sheep feed the system.

.

[terrier]

what ever,
but there is a deep spiritual meaning within masonry!

[boots]

what ever,
but there is a deep spiritual meaning within masonry!


There is deep spiritual meaning in lot's of thing's, not just freemasonry. Which is controlled by the illuminati.

Your conscious has deep spiritual meaning if you follow it. Living life has deep spiritual meaning too.

.What do you want power or to understand yourself???

.

[terrier]

no,
the craftlodge is niether controlled by the illuminati ( scottish rite maid all be or not) niether it gives me any power
it is something much older and much deeper then many people
(and many mason) imagine.

[oiram]

no,
the craftlodge is niether controlled by the illuminati ( scottish rite maid all be or not) niether it gives me any power
it is something much older and much deeper then many people
(and many mason) imagine.
Could you detail this some more could be interesting for all.

Don't keep it just for you to know let it out we all ears.

[boots]

Im all

http://www.allparty.co.uk/store/media/body_parts/22450_Ears_Jumbo_Rubber.jpg

[boots]

That's a real big shame. It's also a reason why Freemasonry isn't a threat to society as conspiracy theorists will have you believe.


You've got a lot to learn:mad:

Energy goes where the intent flow's.

.

[stewart edwards]

Energy goes where the intent flow's.
Indeed which is why it is sad to watch people here act with negative energy towards others, for it feeds darkness and draws more darkness here. As I am fairly certain David Icke has said somewhere in his books (I have only read 3 or 4 - From Biggest Secret to the 911/Matrix ones) you cant defeat evil by being evil/war to stop war/etc, for you are just feeding it. Compassion, understanding, guiding, helping are much more fruitful ways of defeating darkness. Explained well on telly last night when a general from the French Foreign Legion was saying something to the effect of when you take people with troubled backgrounds and offer them a hand of help they become better people. It is true.

Masonry is not bad, it is a fundamental force of good, but it has sadly been misused as is now all to often a drain of darkness as opposed to an institution of light. The sad bit is that darkness has been clever and has silenty and slowly penetrated and hence remains invisible to many within, and those who see it tend to be forced out one way or another. Heart wrenchingly sad to witness, which is why I have spent the past few years helping the masonic world see the darkness within, making it visible, so that it can choose to deal with it or ignore it as it so chooses. But the new age is in no better a position for it is full of dark people pretending to be beacons of light preying on others, and has others who are crearly broken themselves who are trying to lead like the blind leading the blind.

If anyone wants to make a difference rise above petty darkness and lead by positive example.

Just some opinions and thoughts.

[luciferhorus]

you cant defeat evil by being evil/war to stop war/etc, for you are just feeding it. Compassion, understanding, guiding, helping are much more fruitful ways of defeating darkness. ....Just some opinions and thoughts.

Triumph of the Will.

As much as I sympathise with the pacifists; I cannot agree with them.

The traditional anti-Capitalist view is that only by the masses rising up in armed violent revolution can the dictatorship of Capital be overthrown.

Take Cuba for example, which was run by the American gangsters and corporations and was full of casinos, brothels and banks and where the masses were impoverished and only a few were at the top of the Capitalist food chain. Prior to the revolution there were allegedly 100,000 prostitutes on that tiny island; that is what the proletariat had to do to survive; the future daughters of the revolution had to have sex with rich old Americans just to survive in Capitalism.

If you want to get rid of the organised crime which constitutes 'Capital,' you cannot do so with a peace flag since the Capitalists are evangelical, imperialistic, ruthless, aporaclyptic and genocidal; a pacifist response from their enemies and victims is what they want.

Castro, Che, Raul etc., were only successful because they militantly took on the gangsters, the police state and the militiary.

As Che remarked (I paraphrase) 'I we refuse to use the same weapons as our enemies, we are defeated before the revolution has even begun.'

Unfortunately in the forthcoming war, since the Anglo-American Christian state terrorists have weapons of mass destruction and are willing to use them, have used them and are using them to advance Capitalist Imperialism, it will require a totally different type of guerilla warfare utilising the same weapons as the Capitalist enemy, but with the strategy of the 'hidden hand (guerilla warfare) of course.

Unfortunately this is the conclusion that many of the militant enemies of the Capitalist State terrorists (such as myself) have come to, and thus the outcome of Armageddon and the Final Revolutionary War of Economic Salvation will not be decided by the pacifists, it shall be entirely out of their hands.

There are 6 billion people here. If the masses pray, meditate and wave flags for peace, it will not be sufficient to interfere with the will of even a handful of dedicated angels (servants) of war who decide to nuke the financial command and control centres of Capitalism back to hell where they came from.

Britain and America by their agression, their imperialism, their casting of fire down from the sky and their use of advanced weapons including nuclear weapons (such as depleted uranium) on civillians have given their enemies the moral conviction to use the same weapons against them. Whereas in the past the idea of using nuclear weapons on the financial Capitals of the state terrorists was conceivable only by a few, now the moral justification for that is written in the hearts of a billion Muslims and all militant anti-Capitalists.

What goes around comes around; all the evil that have done shall come back on them 7 times 77; one cannot escape Karmic retribution.

In the absence of the possibility of a peaceful uprising by the masses and the overthrowal of the Christian state terrorists, all I forsee is war, genocide and rivers of blood.

The Capitalist State terrorists above and below the earth are unlikely to surrender their kingdom without a fight. I wish it were otherwise and that they would simply surrender to their executioners, and to the ovens of the Final Holocaust, but I doubt if it shall be so; it is not in their nature.

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled.......I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
Fire, plague and poisoned waters.
Revolution in all the world.

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/fds.gif


" A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate…..Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine--this is what our soldiers must become.".........Guevara

[zero1]

Triumph of the Will.

As much as I sympathise with the pacifists; I cannot agree with them.

The traditional anti-Capitalist view is that only by the masses rising up in armed violent revolution can the dictatorship of Capital be overthrown.

Take Cuba for example, which was run by the American gangsters and corporations and was full of casinos, brothels and banks and where the masses were impoverished and only a few were at the top of the Capitalist food chain. Prior to the revolution there were allegedly 100,000 prostitutes on that tiny island; that is what the proletariat had to do to survive; the future daughters of the revolution had to have sex with rich old Americans just to survive in Capitalism.

If you want to get rid of the organised crime which constitutes 'Capital,' you cannot do so with a peace flag since the Capitalists are evangelical, imperialistic, ruthless, aporaclyptic and genocidal; a pacifist response from their enemies and victims is what they want.

Castro, Che, Raul etc., were only successful because they militantly took on the gangsters, the police state and the militiary.

As Che remarked (I paraphrase) 'I we refuse to use the same weapons as our enemies, we are defeated before the revolution has even begun.'

Unfortunately in the forthcoming war, since the Anglo-American Christian state terrorists have weapons of mass destruction and are willing to use them, have used them and are using them to advance Capitalist Imperialism, it will require a totally different type of guerilla warfare utilising the same weapons as the Capitalist enemy, but with the strategy of the 'hidden hand (guerilla warfare) of course.

Unfortunately this is the conclusion that many of the militant enemies of the Capitalist State terrorists (such as myself) have come to, and thus the outcome of Armageddon and the Final Revolutionary War of Economic Salvation will not be decided by the pacifists, it shall be entirely out of their hands.

There are 6 billion people here. If the masses pray, meditate and wave flags for peace, it will not be sufficient to interfere with the will of even a handful of dedicated angels (servants) of war who decide to nuke the financial command and control centres of Capitalism back to hell where they came from.

Britain and America by their agression, their imperialism, their casting of fire down from the sky and their use of advanced weapons including nuclear weapons (such as depleted uranium) on civillians have given their enemies the moral conviction to use the same weapons against them. Whereas in the past the idea of using nuclear weapons on the financial Capitals of the state terrorists was conceivable only by a few, now the moral justification for that is written in the hearts of a billion Muslims and all militant anti-Capitalists.

What goes around comes around; all the evil that have done shall come back on them 7 times 77; one cannot escape Karmic retribution.

In the absence of the possibility of a peaceful uprising by the masses and the overthrowal of the Christian state terrorists, all I forsee is war, genocide and rivers of blood.

The Capitalist State terrorists above and below the earth are unlikely to surrender their kingdom without a fight. I wish it were otherwise and that they would simply surrender to their executioners, and to the ovens of the Final Holocaust, but I doubt if it shall be so; it is not in their nature.

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled.......I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
Fire, plague and poisoned waters.
Revolution in all the world.

http://www.luciferia.tv/1ChildrenOftheSlaves/fds.gif


" A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate…..Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine--this is what our soldiers must become.".........Guevara

Great post; it speaks to my heart, directly. Truly, I mean that. :)

[terrier]

Indeed which is why it is sad to watch people here act with negative energy towards others, for it feeds darkness and draws more darkness here. As I am fairly certain David Icke has said somewhere in his books (I have only read 3 or 4 - From Biggest Secret to the 911/Matrix ones) you cant defeat evil by being evil/war to stop war/etc, for you are just feeding it. Compassion, understanding, guiding, helping are much more fruitful ways of defeating darkness. Explained well on telly last night when a general from the French Foreign Legion was saying something to the effect of when you take people with troubled backgrounds and offer them a hand of help they become better people. It is true.

Masonry is not bad, it is a fundamental force of good, but it has sadly been misused as is now all to often a drain of darkness as opposed to an institution of light. The sad bit is that darkness has been clever and has silenty and slowly penetrated and hence remains invisible to many within, and those who see it tend to be forced out one way or another. Heart wrenchingly sad to witness, which is why I have spent the past few years helping the masonic world see the darkness within, making it visible, so that it can choose to deal with it or ignore it as it so chooses. But the new age is in no better a position for it is full of dark people pretending to be beacons of light preying on others, and has others who are crearly broken themselves who are trying to lead like the blind leading the blind.

If anyone wants to make a difference rise above petty darkness and lead by positive example.

Just some opinions and thoughts.

with the darkness,you re absolutly right. but this is not freemasonry,just certain people who joined. niether it is 300 years old,like the grand lodge likes to state. it is the old mystery school, masonry is just a name.
it has nothing at whole to do with christianity,more agyptian or from atlantis if you want.what everybody pulls out of it,is intierely up to him.for me it is an old sun cult.of course nobody has to join,in order to study old misteries,no. 20 years ago i had the possibility to become an apprentice of a brujo(masculine witch),after a while i found out,that this is not my way.
christianity as a dogma,for me not acceptable. but did love jesus way of seeing thing:" dont believe me a word,try it yourself " a course in miracles.
or vasulla reyden: true life in god, or conversations with god.this is all information,wich can bring the best out of man.
but still i wanted a bit more,this is the reason i did join.well, i personally think that 95 % of masons do not know what there doing there(not that i know it all) why do we always step of with the left or why is the sun always at its meridian ,with respect to freemasonry?
for most people it is now a gentlemen club,well it is certanly a bit more than that.
but this are just my 5 cents, just valueble for me.
saludos

[luciferhorus]

with the darkness,you re absolutly right. but this is not freemasonry,just certain people who joined. niether it is 300 years old,like the grand lodge likes to state. it is the old mystery school, masonry is just a name.


OK



it has nothing at whole to do with christianity,


The Knight's of Solomon's Temple represent the swansong (the last dying breath) of Christian Capitalism; they cannot and will not deny that they are Christians, since only Christians are admitted, and they cannot deny they are Capitalists, since the behaviour of their slaves (cultists) shows their commitment to World Capitalist Revolution, whatever the cost in human blood and toil; and that defines Christian Capitalism.


more agyptian or from atlantis if you want.



Well allegedly the highest Masonic rites are spoken in the Egyptian language, which is probably a remnant of the Atlantean language, but we cannot prove that it is Atlantean due to the last deluge (lit. to wash down) where almost all remnant of the pre-deluge age has been eradicated.


for me it is an old sun cult.


Yes of course; just as the Christians worship Jesus but despise and hate those who are like him, the Masons despise all manifestations of Love and Light, for the truth is not in them; hatred and ignorance always hides behind the mask of love and light; how else could they survive?

In reality they represent Saturn, death, the sin of restriction, slavery, the worship of the god of Capital, and just as Saturn devoured his own children, their Capitalist militants cast fire down from the sky and devour women and children, innocents, torture, rape, murder, genocide...they care not for the victims of god of Capital.

We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.

But fear not; their days are numbered; not one will remain; no mercy or compassion shall be shown them or to their children, or to their children's children; rivers of blood shall be demanded from all who collaborate with these vermin; yea even those who fill their inkwells or who so much as offer these useless eaters even so much as a glass of water, or a sentence of praise or flattery, 7 times 77 in blood shall be demanded.

Fire and blood I demand, and I shall not be satisfied until all is fulfilled.



christianity as a dogma,for me not acceptable.


Christianity is a form of black magick which propagates the anti-thesis of the ideas of the Communist / anti-propertyist / anti-Capitalist martyr Jesus; of course it is not acceptable and must be eradicated from the face of the earth and from below the earth; not even one of these vermin must be spared, or the revolution will have to begin all over again and rivers of blood will flow; of course it is not acceptable.

i personally think that 95 % of masons do not know what there doing there


I tell you that 100% of Masons understand that their god is the god of Capital and of Christian Capitalist state terrorism / narco-terrorism / global Capitalist imperialism etc; if there is even one who misunderstands this, the only excuse must be some form of mental retardation and a lack of common intelligence.


but this are just my 5 cents


Well it is 3 dollars for a cup of coffee in Capitalism; it was worth more than that.


saludos

Likewise


Love and Light to you brother.

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

Lux

No mercy or quarter on they who deserve none.

Apocalyptic guerrilla war, fire, plague, poisoned waters, revolution, genocide... anything good but strong

[stewart edwards]

Well allegedly the highest Masonic rites are spoken in the Egyptian language, which is probably a remnant of the Atlantean language, but we cannot prove that it is Atlantean due to the last deluge..I hadnt realised that there was anyone alive today who can speak ancient Egyptian. This facinates me luciferhorus. Do you know which dialect/historic periods language structure is allegedly spoken?

I do know from masonic forums masons who firmly belive that masonry does go back to ancient Egypt and then further back to Atlantis, so what you say in this respect is possible. But your precise wording here intrigues me luciferhorus.

Also which rites do you think are the highest? And do you think that it is spoken using a genuine dialect carefully preserved, or do you think that it has been formed from one of the translitteration schemes, and if so in which language do you think that it was learnt from?

[terrier]

OK



The Knight's of Solomon's Temple represent the swansong (the last dying breath) of Christian Capitalism; they cannot and will not deny that they are Christians, since only Christians are admitted, and they cannot deny they are Capitalists, since the behaviour of their slaves (cultists) shows their commitment to World Capitalist Revolution, whatever the cost in human blood and toil; and that defines Christian Capitalism.




Well allegedly the highest Masonic rites are spoken in the Egyptian language, which is probably a remnant of the Atlantean language, but we cannot prove that it is Atlantean due to the last deluge (lit. to wash down) where almost all remnant of the pre-deluge age has been eradicated.



Yes of course; just as the Christians worship Jesus but despise and hate those who are like him, the Masons despise all manifestations of Love and Light, for the truth is not in them; hatred and ignorance always hides behind the mask of love and light; how else could they survive?

In reality they represent Saturn, death, the sin of restriction, slavery, the worship of the god of Capital, and just as Saturn devoured his own children, their Capitalist militants cast fire down from the sky and devour women and children, innocents, torture, rape, murder, genocide...they care not for the victims of god of Capital.

We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.

But fear not; their days are numbered; not one will remain; no mercy or compassion shall be shown them or to their children, or to their children's children; rivers of blood shall be demanded from all who collaborate with these vermin; yea even those who fill their inkwells or who so much as offer these useless eaters even so much as a glass of water, or a sentence of praise or flattery, 7 times 77 in blood shall be demanded.

Fire and blood I demand, and I shall not be satisfied until all is fulfilled.




Christianity is a form of black magick which propagates the anti-thesis of the ideas of the Communist / anti-propertyist / anti-Capitalist martyr Jesus; of course it is not acceptable and must be eradicated from the face of the earth and from below the earth; not even one of these vermin must be spared, or the revolution will have to begin all over again and rivers of blood will flow; of course it is not acceptable.



I tell you that 100% of Masons understand that their god is the god of Capital and of Christian Capitalist state terrorism / narco-terrorism / global Capitalist imperialism etc; if there is even one who misunderstands this, the only excuse must be some form of mental retardation and a lack of common intelligence.



Well it is 3 dollars for a cup of coffee in Capitalism; it was worth more than that.



Likewise


Love and Light to you brother.

http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

Lux

No mercy or quarter on they who deserve none.

Apocalyptic guerrilla war, fire, plague, poisoned waters, revolution, genocide... anything good but strong

i do agree with nearly all you wrote,did enjoy other threads from you as well,
admire your way of understanding and expressing this to others,

love and light to you too my brother

saludos

a "cortado" is here one euro

[luciferhorus]

I hadnt realised that there was anyone alive today who can speak ancient Egyptian. This facinates me luciferhorus. Do you know which dialect/historic periods language structure is allegedly spoken?

I do know from masonic forums masons who firmly belive that masonry does go back to ancient Egypt and then further back to Atlantis, so what you say in this respect is possible. But your precise wording here intrigues me luciferhorus.

Also which rites do you think are the highest?

Blood


'Worship me with fire and blood...........Obey my prophet! follow out the ordeals of my knowledge! seek me only! Then the joys of my love will redeem ye from all pain. This is so: I swear it by the vault of my body; by my sacred heart and tongue; by all I can give, by all I desire of ye all'


http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

Well Stuart I think I should deal with your last question first. The term ritua (rite / ritual) is derived from an ancient term meaning 'blood' or 'red,' and I think I have made it clear that I demand the blood and flesh of the priesthood of the god of Capital ( 'outcast and... unfit: let them die in their misery) and all who collaborate with this demon, and that this demand represents the most sacred and highest 'ritua' on earth in this time; all other rituals being not only unnecessary but also heresy and blasphemy; only the fulfillment of my sacred will and the blood I demand is the 'Highest' and most pure and holy sacred rite....narrow is the path to economic heaven on earth.


We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery.........Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them...

I refer of course to the morally worthless devotees of the god of Capital, who are totally unworthy of life, and not to the innocent children of humanity who suffer from illness.


Regarding Egypt



I do know from masonic forums masons who firmly belive that masonry does go back to ancient Egypt and then further back to Atlantis, so what you say in this respect is possible. But your precise wording here intrigues me luciferhorus.

Well my precise wording was ‘allegedly.’


Over here in Europe we have such rituals as the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis and Mizraim (named after cities in Egypt), and we must consider Crowley and his invocation of Horus’ priest, and the image of him dressed as an Egyptian priest and his fascination with all matters Egyptian, and of course his 'Book of the Law,' which has allegedly been given to us by my once disobedient slave Aiwass.


Of course the Masonic cultists often allege that they are merely cultists in a NRM (New Religious Movement) which has nothing to do with the ‘Knights of Solomon’s Temple,’ or indeed with Rosslyn Chapel, or the history of Scotland until recently, or indeed with Solomon and his mythical Phoenician / Egyptian High Priest and Grand Architect (who according to the best selling Masonic cult conspiracy theorists Knight and Lomas, was Egyptian, not Phoenecian).


Then of course the Masonic cultists often claim that they are not pseudo-Kabbalists (i.e., heretics). If they were of course this would bring us to the study of the Hebrew language, and of course the Hebrews were allegedly slaves in Egypt, and like all slave languages we would expect to find Egyptian words and roots of words in Hebrew, which in fact we do.

So it is very much a myth that the Kabbalistic teachings are derived from the wisdom of the masters of the Egyptian slaves, but then with regards to Freemasonry we are dealing allegedly (according to their cultists / slaves) with a new Capitalist Messianic cult of slaves unrelated to the ancient world and to the ancient mysteries who are only interested in prostrating themselves before the masters (priests) of the god of Capital.

Since the past is shrouded in mystery, this is why I use the word ‘allegedly.’

And as for me, I am much further advanced than those primitive Egyptians and their silly superstitions, and their slavery and tyranny, so any relationship between my username and the Egyptian Sun god must be taken not as an act of worship but of invocation.

As an Anarchist and Communist I sacrifice to no god; I merely demand they (the gods) sacrifice to me with blood and fire.

I hope that answers your questions to your satisfaction.

LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif

__________________


The Study of Mythology Part One: The Atlanteans and the Legends of the Flood.

Lucifer

Aeon of Lucifer 2009

In simple language.

On the problems of studying ancient history and especially 'pre-history, and by the latter term I refer approximately to the pre-agriculture era or pre-cataclysm (Gr. to wash down) era or pre-flood era of around 10,000 B.C.'

One of the major problems in pre-history and in ancient history is the abundance of myths and the propaganda of tyrants and prophets; none of which can be trusted.

There are generally three responses to this.

1: Literalism.

This is generally a view held by many of our relatively illiterate, uneducated and overly superstitious ancestors who held that certain myths are literally true; in Christendom today this is generally the view that the Bible is literally true; in India it is generally the view that the Hindu myths are true; in ancient Greece, it was the view that the numerous tales of the gods were literally true; throughout the world, shamans and witch doctors spread numerous tales and legends of ancient gods and miracle working ancestors.

2: Myth as invented.

This is generally the view that any ancient myth is simply nonsense and has no historical meaning or truth.

3: Myth as 'Chinese Whispers.'

This is generally the view that our relatively illiterate ancestors orally passed down tales and legends which changed over time and to which tales of gods and miracle men were added, but which may have some historical basis.

The Deluge.

There are around 200 different legends of a historical cataclysm; there are also legends of regional localised flooding. Since these tales are often told in the form of myth, there is a tendency to discredit them.

However, there have been numerous underwater temples photographed, some 100's of feet deep in the oceans; it is clear that the waters of the oceans of the earth were once much shallower.

Atlantis.

There are numerous legends of this and numerous speculations as to the location of Atlantis. Probably the most popular is the 'North Atlantic Ridge' which is more of a large continent than an 'island;' it is quite simply the relatively shallow water that one crosses when sailing across the Atlantic which would have been a land mass if the waters of Eden were lower..

Velikovsky: World's in collision, Magnetism and Planet X..

It is clear that our solar system has not always been as it is today. A brief glimpse at the surface of the Moon and Mars shows the impact of numerous objects. There are numerous theories about the existence of an 11th large planet in our solar system, but astronomers have discovered approximately 200 other distant 'objects in orbit around our sun, so it is more a question of 'Planets (plural)' X, Y. Z, and so forth.

Magnetism.

Planets tend to rotate elliptically around our sun as opposed to circularly. Distant planets or 'objects' on an elliptical orbit are so far away and moving so slowly (from our perspective) that their orbits are virtually impossible to calculate.

Think of the Sun as a positive magnet and all other objects and planets in orbit as negative magnets.

If one were to spin numerous negative magnets around a positive magnet, orbits would appear. Once the orbits had 'settled' into position, if one where to throw another large negative magnet (the equivalent of a large planet) into this arrangement, it would affect the orbit of all other negative magnets and it may even collide with some. Since this is much the way our solar system works, there is no good reason to assume that the orbits of our planets and our distance from the sun have always been as they are now, and further that they will always be this way.

We cannot go back in time and speak empirically about what happened during the most recent cataclysm, we can only study myths and legends, however the prevailing Velikovskian theory is as follows.

Any large object coming in from outer space would be incredibly 'cold.' If there was water / ice on that planet, it would start to melt as it's elliptical orbit brought it closer to the sun. The recent cataclysm was most probably caused by the impact of 'ice.'

At the North and South poles, the earth is 'squashed' as if hit by billions of tons of ice; this ice is not frozen salt water but fresh water, which begs the question of how it got there. The prevailing theory is that ice approaching earth would be magnetised by the Van Halen belt, and instead of maintaining a 'straight' trajectory, would be attracted to the magnetic poles; thus the existence of huge freshwater deposits here.

Temperature.

Scientists know that the temperature of the earth has not been constant; there are two two major theories which explain this. 1: That the Sun cools down and heats up; this is a fact; it is currently heating up. 2: That the distance between the earth and the sun is not constant, but is occasionally changed by the magnetism of the elliptical orbit of an 11th giant planet which occasionally visits our tiny region close to the sun.


The Legend of the Atlanteans.

Unfortunately I can now only speak of 'myths and legends.' I live near 'Glastonbury' in England where the Druids and Wiccans are obsessed with the Arthurian legends of the ancient kingdom of Camelot in the same way that Americans are obsessed with their biblical legends. They may be myths and legends, but unfortunately that is how history has been passed down to us by our ancestors; it does not mean that there is not an iota of truth to them.

Once upon a time, prior to the great Cataclysm, there was an ancient island culture called Atlantis. It was a scientifically advanced culture, but ruled by an ancient priesthood. Generally it is a 'Lord of the Rings’ type tale where magicians (ancient scientists and spiritualists) were divided into good and evil. Nuclear War ensued. Of course this was all washed away by the Cataclysm. From the remnants of the Atlanteans, according to the myth, those who were evil reappeared again in Egypt and began to reconstruct their ancient culture, language, architecture / masonry, science and religion. From the remnant of the Atlanteans who waged war against evil, we have the Arthurian myths and the ancient Druids.

Unfortunately history (as seen through myths and legends) seems to be repeating itself. The world gears up for nuclear war between the magi of good and evil. The prophets of old seem to indicate that in this age, Sauron will be defeated, but unfortunately not without global war, but this will not be a consequence of merely natural phenomena, but of militant, genocidal human will; we live in such times. .

We probably have a limited time before the next cataclysm, but we must here consider ‘limited time’ in terms of numerous Aeons, which is a relatively short time period in contrast to our universe which has witnessed billions of years of cataclysms.

The period between cataclysms is what human beings call 'history.'

What was before the last cataclysm is what scientists often consider a 'primitive age.' To future generations who survive the next great cataclysm, the myths and legends of our age will possibly survive and a new set of scientists and religionists will come along and dismiss their pre-history as myths and legend.


And so it goes on...

I am however unconcerned with the coming cataclysm; that has nothing to do with my mission on earth which is to demand the sacrifice of the devotees of the god of Capital; all I demand is their flesh and blood and the blood of their children, and their children’s children, and that their cities are swiftly turned to dust and that their Temples run red with the blood of their priests (Masters); that is a very trivial matter in comparison to the matter of the unending cataclysms which constantly and naturally afflict out universe; it is in comparison a mere insignificant detail of history.

Love and Light

Lux-
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
The 1000 Year revolution of Light

'Apres moi le deluge (of fire and blood).'

War, revolution, genocide....... anything good but strong

More on: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6056789081969524094 ...Michael Tsarion: "The Destruction Of Atlantis - Was Atlantis a Center Of Advanced Civilization." Lecture on Video. 120 minutes.

[watson_k]

And as for me, I am much further advanced than those primitive Egyptians and their silly superstitions, and their slavery and tyranny, so any relationship between my username and the Egyptian Sun god must be taken not as an act of worship but of invocation.

Sorry, It may just be that it's 2 in the morning, but that sounds like a tad of Egotism.


I hadnt realised that there was anyone alive today who can speak ancient Egyptian. This facinates me luciferhorus. Do you know which dialect/historic periods language structure is allegedly spoken?

You can find traces of knowledge from Ancient Masonry all over the world, not just to Egypt. Even if you knew the language you'd be running in circles.
I could write you Zadok the Priest in Arabic and tell you it's an Ancient Egyptian poem for Mason Initiations, and you'd be non the wiser.

[luciferhorus]

Sorry, It may just be that it's 2 in the morning, but that sounds like a tad of Egotism.


I do speak fluent psyco-babble and Neo-Freudian, but I tend to reject such language in favour of the simple language of Jung and Reich.

I am I. Narcissus probably loved himself, but when he met another soul, his love would have to be confirmed; you may possibly be used to the state of fear and self-loathing as a state of normality, as a result of conditioning, but I do not suffer from this disease.


You can find traces of knowledge from Ancient Masonry all over the world, not just to Egypt. Even if you knew the language you'd be running in circles.
I could write you Zadok the Priest in Arabic and tell you it's an Ancient Egyptian poem for Mason Initiations, and you'd be non the wiser.

Fortunately I come fully equipped with an expertise in linguistics which would put even Chomsky to shame, much as I love and admire him.

LL

Lux

[ongoing_journey]

So David is your God then is he? Whatever David says is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and nobody dare express an opinion?

Nope... I used his name for seeing you are in a forum of his then u maybe read his works or at least gained from his communication that we are eternal Light beings. So where does eternal life...freemasonry fit into that scheme? An Inner Being resides in each individual and the individual's path in coming to that realization is a unique journey. And we know truth when we hear it.

[stewart edwards]

Luciferhorus

Thank you.


WatsonK

I have often been ridiculed in the masonic world for it but to me the ancient energy streams, while weak, are clearly visible in the masonic world. There strength varies from temple/lodge to temple/lodge from strong to non existant.

It is facinating touring lodges/temples on open days etc to feel these differences.

If you have any knowledge of the ancient energy crystals see if you can feel your lodges connection to them. Over recent years I feel that the old gristal grid has been slowly and steadily rejuvinating, slowly clearing the ancient arteries and pathways. Very weak at the moment yes but the old grid does seem to be coming back to life. Many lodges still have a bit of spring clening to do to clear their connections with it.

Actually has anyone in the now age movement felt this? Or is this just the ramblings of a mad man in middle age crisis?:eek:

[bowtiedaddy]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?
Would you consider it some sort of spiritual path? Explain please.

Freemasonry is: Compartmentalized wild goose chase.

[stewart edwards]

Freemasonry is: Compartmentalized wild goose chase.Bowtiedaddy in some ways I agree with you but in others I disagree. let me explain.

I agree with you in that I have had to help some Freemasons and if lodges were working properly perhaps should not have required an outsider to help.

But I disagree in that even from the outside I have found Freemasonry to be a very valuable tool in helping me find my way through life. There have been a handful of small little things that have helped me, acting like signposts and refuges. Now I answered the eternal questions myself but my interaction with Freemasonry most ceratinly helped me get there. And that was from the outside. So I can only image how effective a good lodge could be. Though I appreciate that many/most lodges are but social clubs nowadays in which case tehir members probably think that I am a bit daft. And who knows they may be right.:D

Yes there are various agendas going on within the masonic system, and yes the left hand doesnt seem to even want to know the right hand, while one degree may be bought for money in one country while take a lifetime of service in another etc etc. Some may say that Freemasonry is about helping humanity others may baulk at the thought. Some say that it is an individual thing, while in other countries it is I understand actively part of the political process. So it is all a bit of a muddle. So while it may appear to be a wild goose chase it is I would suggest just lost. And it became lost because darkness was allowed to slowly and silently sneak in over the decades. But few within the masonic system seem to have the b@@@s to stand up and reilluminate the system. And those that try to can appear to get ground down by the darkness within.

Sadly the masonic world does not appear to have found the inner courage to face the darkness far less deal with it. Though clearly my perception may be incorrect being on the outside.

Makes me want to put the masonic powers that be in a room and knock their heads together. But I am told, rightly or wrongly, that too often they cant even sit in a room together without squabbling and walking out.

Makes me shed more than a few tears for the masonic world.

[watson_k]

Luciferhorus

Thank you.


WatsonK

I have often been ridiculed in the masonic world for it but to me the ancient energy streams, while weak, are clearly visible in the masonic world. There strength varies from temple/lodge to temple/lodge from strong to non existant.

It is facinating touring lodges/temples on open days etc to feel these differences.

If you have any knowledge of the ancient energy crystals see if you can feel your lodges connection to them. Over recent years I feel that the old gristal grid has been slowly and steadily rejuvinating, slowly clearing the ancient arteries and pathways. Very weak at the moment yes but the old grid does seem to be coming back to life. Many lodges still have a bit of spring clening to do to clear their connections with it.

Actually has anyone in the now age movement felt this? Or is this just the ramblings of a mad man in middle age crisis?:eek:

I could hope nothing better for that to be true. Even if it is, we still have pillocks in power that wont do anything about it, but I can tell you it's not just a mad mans middle age crisis, lol.

About visiting the Masonic lodges, they tend not to let in the 'hoody' generation without a parent, so that's hard for me.

[eastbeast]

About visiting the Masonic lodges, they tend not to let in the 'hoody' generation without a parent, so that's hard for me.



That would probably be the case for most places you went, sadly our perceptions of people are based upon thier appearance. Mine included.

If you really wish to visit a Lodge I suggest getting hold of the Secretary and arranging to meet him, dress smart or smart casual to show you respect yourself, him and the establishment you are visiting and I am sure you will be welcome.

Where abouts are you geographically?

[stewart edwards]

Eastbeat i normally agree with you wholeheartedly but not on this occassion sadly our perceptions of people are based upon thier appearance.Form over substance. Will break any organisation in the end. Proven time and time again throughout history.


dress smart or smart casual to show you respect yourself,Sorry Eastbeat this is nonsense. Pure prejudice.

himPerhaps in his eyes. But see above.

and the establishment you are visitingOk possibly, if it is a church.

It is the man or woman that matters to me, their heart, not what they choose or can afford to wear. That is but a covering that too many use to hide behind.

[mike martin]

About visiting the Masonic lodges, they tend not to let in the 'hoody' generation without a parent, so that's hard for me.
Only if you insist on keeping the hood up and looking all mean and scary.

Mike

[stewart edwards]

Only if you insist on keeping the hood up and looking all mean and scary.

MikeMike

Immagine the conspiracy theorists reaction if UGLE started to hold lodges where people turned up in hoodies!! I would guess that some Conspiracy theorists would see it as good training for the 33rd etc.:eek:

[mike martin]

Immagine the conspiracy theorists reaction if UGLE started to hold lodges where people turned up in hoodies!! I would guess that some Conspiracy theorists would see it as good training for the 33rd etc.:eek:
As he's talking about a visit to a Masonic Hall, I just gave him the facts.

At Great Queen Street we get hundreds of people a week just pop in to just look around, visit the Museum & Library or if they time it right do the tour. Someone who insisted on keeping their hood up and their face hidden would be likley to raise some suspicion.

Mike

[stewart edwards]

As he's talking about a visit to a Masonic Hall, I just gave him the facts.

At Great Queen Street we get hundreds of people a week just pop in to just look around, visit the Museum & Library or if they time it right do the tour. Someone who insisted on keeping their hood up and their face hidden would be likley to raise some suspicion.

MikeIndeed. The last time I did it, some years back now, I was very impressed by the inside of the Great Temple door.

[terrier]

hi,
grandsecretary,would you be so kind and explain your point,in the differences of the two ways of masonry. i am very interested,why just fellowcrafts?
and is it actually irregual masonry?
thank you for your answer

[grandsecretary]

hi,
grandsecretary,would you be so kind and explain your point,in the differences of the two ways of masonry. i am very interested,why just fellowcrafts?
and is it actually irregual masonry?
thank you for your answer

One is the religious ancient pre-Davidic form which came down to us from time immemorial via Celtic/Druidic/Christian roots; and the other is the Moderns system which has no real history prior to 1717 when it was self started by a very small number of Rosicrucian anti-Catholics, in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house. New system, new structure, new rituals.

The original system had no Master Mason's or any other "higher" degrees. These were the invention of Theophilus Desaguliers and his successors (Pike etc.) on behalf of a hierarchical, Moderns system.

A Fellow of the Craft of Freemasonry had "full and equal membership status" for want of a better description, in the same way as, a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, or a Fellow of the Royal Society was a full member of his society.

The Grand Lodge at York was known as The Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Free Masons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York. Its Fellows were its members. Even to this day, initiated members of the Society and Fraternity are Fellows of the Grand Lodge at York.

The Grand Lodge of All England does not use derogatory epithets such as "irregular" when describing other jurisdictions or their members. Freemasonry is an English word, not a property or a brand name to be owned by any particular organisation.

This is the last sentence of the the Statement of York which remains our position on this matter:

"If he wishes to partake of Masonry in its Original Purity, he will turn his attention to that source, where it hath been Inviolably maintained and continued for Successive Ages to this Day, and where the Legislature of Masonry for this Kingdom stands fixed by its true Title 'The Grand Lodge of All England, Established at the City of York.' " (SOURCE: Statement of York 1779)

I hope that this explains the situation in England today.

[boots]

In other words the control of freemasons has been going on for a very long time what ever form you call it.

Freemasons are being used to further the agenda of the NWO. Great:rolleyes:

.

[cheeney1]

Thats correct and when there use has ended the freemsons will be demonised by the MSM As corupt, and necrophiliacs :rolleyes:

[boots]

They will be used to bring in a one world religion and their great god will be Jabulon. The great deceiver.

.

[grandsecretary]

Thats correct and when there use has ended the freemsons will be demonised by the MSM As corupt, and necrophiliacs :rolleyes:

I am afraid that you are flogging a dead horse here cheeney. Does that make you a sadistic necrophiliac with a penchant for bestiality?

[watson_k]

They will be used to bring in a one world religion and their great god will be Jabulon. The great deceiver.

.

Isn't he an explorer that found a golden plate inside an ancient temple?

[thelonious]

Isn't he an explorer that found a golden plate inside an ancient temple?

Yes. However, both boots and lightgiver seem to think it's supposed to be a secret name of God, or something to that effect.

It's this, and other things, that show conclusively to real researches that have no idea what the hell they're talking about, and that's pretty much continuous.

[watson_k]

Yes. However, both boots and lightgiver seem to think it's supposed to be a secret name of God, or something to that effect.

It's this, and other things, that show conclusively to real researches that have no idea what the hell they're talking about, and that's pretty much continuous.

As far as I'm aware, he found a plate with the name of God written on it. I can see how that can be confused a little.

[eternal_spirit]

As far as I'm aware, he found a plate with the name of God written on it. I can see how that can be confused a little.
Settle the issue haha
Here's one thread about Jahbulon (varying opinions) and the topic causes commotion everytime it's brought up.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29553&highlight=jahbulon

[grandsecretary]

Yes. However, both boots and lightgiver seem to think it's supposed to be a secret name of God, or something to that effect.

It's this, and other things, that show conclusively to real researches that have no idea what the hell they're talking about, and that's pretty much continuous.

This word, or one very similar, was used by the Moderns form of freemasonry in their Royal Arch degree.

It was ditched a few years ago, but the secret name for God, which was to be found on the plate of gold on top of the altar in the crypt of King Solomon's Temple was Jahbulon.

The word Jehovah was also used at the same time, but since Jahbulon ceased to be used, the single word, Jehovah, known as "The Sacred Word" has been maintained.

The explanation of "The Sacred and Mysterious name", is that it is derived from the Chaldee word, Jah, meaning God, the Syriac word bul, meaning Lord, and the Egyptian word on, meaning Father of All.

[eternal_spirit]

Soulja posted this on the last page of the link (Jahbulon thread) It's a quote but he never left a link, so don't know where it came from

Quote:
The most 'secret name' of Royal Arch Freemasonry was:

JAHBULON

This manufactured name was a mixture of the different gods that they worshipped. The unholy trinity and worship of Satan. They had used Jewish/Arabic mysticism to research mind control.

See Egyptian Book of the Dead - also the Lesser Key of Solomon, although this book is a fake in terms of 'magic'. It was produced solely as a mind control manual and not for any other purpose i.e. the symbols are used to call up different 'alters' of mind control slaves.

They also experimented with 'time travel' i.e. the disembodied mind can be released from the constraints of time and space, under certain terrible conditions, to produce remote viewers.

What is the new 'password' of Royal Arch Freemasonry?

ALRAHYAH

Why have they changed it?

The first one got outed on the net years ago. It had been used to mainly recruit and train Judaeo-Christian mind control slaves.

The second one is specifically tailored to recruit and train Muslim mind control slaves. Therefore, appropriately enough, it begins with 'AL'.

[watson_k]

Settle the issue haha
Here's one thread about Jahbulon (varying opinions) and the topic causes commotion everytime it's brought up.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29553&highlight=jahbulon

Jah - shortened name for God. (YHVH) Jah is used in the Rastafari movement.

The Hebrew text has it that afflicted people are delivered "buh" (Hebrew word) their affliction. "Buh" is a preposition attached to a noun, and can be translated either as "in" or "by means of."

Lun- (in hebrew) "to pass the night" "to tarry"

Jah-Buh-Lun - God by the means of waiting..?

So If I was to interpret that, (through the translations of these Hebrew words) it would mean that God cannot be found through rashness and patience would need to be sought. After all the secrets of Diety wont just jump in your face.

Just like the letters in YHVH have quite a few meanings, it's not just a name.

But hey, that's just me...

Btw, in the other thread the person who quoted Zain missed out, that the password was Raboni (origin of Rabbi), meaning Master.

[mike martin]

Soulja posted this on the last page of the link (Jahbulon thread) It's a quote but he never left a link, so don't know where it came from
ALRAHYAH

Why have they changed it?

The first one got outed on the net years ago. It had been used to mainly recruit and train Judaeo-Christian mind control slaves.

I do hope you realise that it is total bullshit though?

The Jahbulon word was actually "outed" in 1875 by CW Heckethorn and even more widespread in 1952 by Walton Hannah and again by Stephen Knight in 1985 all way before the Internet took off in England.

The new word is neither Alrayah nor does it start with Al. It's easy enough to find on the Net just like the first word.

Mike

[mike martin]

Jah-Buh-Lun - God by the means of waiting..?
I do wonder sometimes! A copy of Walton Hannah's Darkness Visible reproduces the Ritual in full with all words.

It is a compound word, and the combination forms the word JAH-BUL-ON. It is in four languages, Chaldee, Hebrew, Syriac and Egyptian. JAH is the Chaldee name of God, signifying "His Essence and Majesty Incomprehensible". It is also a Hebrew word signifying "I am and shall be" thereby expressing the actual, future and eternal existence of the Most High. BUL is a Syriac word denoting Lord or Powerful, it is in itself a compound word, being formed from the proposition Beth, in or on, and Ul, Heaven or on High; therefore the meaning of the word is Lord in Heaven or on High. ON is an Egyptian word, signifying Father of all, thereby expressing the Omnipotence of the Father of All, as in that well-known prayer, Our Father, which art in Heaven. The various significations of the words may be thus collected: I am and shall be; Lord in Heaven or on High.

So why bother guessing or making it up?

Mike

[watson_k]

I do wonder sometimes! A copy of Walton Hannah's Darkness Visible reproduces the Ritual in full with all words.



So why bother guessing or making it up?

Mike

Never seen that, I was just guessing as I said. Thank you for posting it. Just like the word Solomon comes from many different languages, It looks like so does the word Jahbulon. Are there any other compound words?

[grandsecretary]

Just to make it quite clear, these words were introduced exclusively for the Moderns form of freemasonry. They are no longer secret, and have not been so for many decades.

[eternal_spirit]

I do hope you realise that it is total bullshit though?

The Jahbulon word was actually "outed" in 1875 by CW Heckethorn and even more widespread in 1952 by Walton Hannah and again by Stephen Knight in 1985 all way before the Internet took off in England.

The new word is neither Alrayah nor does it start with Al. It's easy enough to find on the Net just like the first word.

Mike

Mind control is a minefield and another topic that I don't want to get into here.

Okay, the internet gave it a wider audience.

How can it be easy to find? Have you found a link :D?
if so post and tell the new word?

[watson_k]

Just to make it quite clear, these words were introduced exclusively for the Moderns form of freemasonry. They are no longer secret, and have not been so for many decades.

Grandsecretary, is it true that the 'Grand Lodge of All England held at York' is separate from both The Antients and the Moderns? Also that most Freemasons never recognised the Premier Grand Lodge in the first place?

Sorry if it has been asked before.

[flyermay]

Grandsecretary, is it true that the 'Grand Lodge of All England held at York' is separate from both The Antients and the Moderns? Also that most Freemasons never recognised the Premier Grand Lodge in the first place?

Can I ask a question to GS and Mike, please?

Did you know the differences between these types of freemasonry before you joined in, or did you discovered it on your way (and maybe even changed to another one because of these differences)?

[mike martin]

Mind control is a minefield and another topic that I don't want to get into here.
Cool cos Freemasonry is not about mind control.

Okay, the internet gave it a wider audience.
I think you understand my point.

How can it be easy to find? Have you found a link :D?
if so post and tell the new word?
I posted links to a site that hosts the full unedited Rituals of many Masonic and other Orders about a year ago suggesting that anyone who wanted to know the truth should visit it and read for themselves.

You'll have to search cos I can't remember it now.

Mike

[mike martin]

Did you know the differences between these types of freemasonry before you joined in, or did you discovered it on your way (and maybe even changed to another one because of these differences)?
So as to avoid starting an argument with grandsecretary, I will put it this way.

When I joined an English Masonic Lodge in 1994 my only choices were the UGLE, Le Droit Humain (mixed Masonry) or a little known Lodge in London under the Grand Orient of France. If I was looking to become a Mason today I would have a further 3 choices.

Mike

[ingram0009]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?... Explain please.

If you have ever been around Free Masons or Jews you will notice one thing about them.

O.C.D.

'Right, you touch this twice with your right hand and then turn around anti clockwise and then touch it with your left, but only if it's tuesday'.

This is basically what their belief systems are based upon.

[stewart edwards]

I posted links to a site that hosts the full unedited Rituals of many Masonic and other Orders about a year ago suggesting that anyone who wanted to know the truth should visit it and read for themselves. MikeYou know I still cant bring myself to do this. I have thought about it, but it just does not seem right and proper somehow.

Some years back a chap in the UGLE shop (youngish chap) offered to sell me Emulation and I refused, and to this day I cannot open ritual. I did download emulation years ago but when I skim read it it just felt wrong to read it. Very difficult to explain. But neither right nor proper sums it up best.

Though the bits that I have chanced across on forums, or in books has lightened my heart. Somethings are best kept secret. Preserved for those who are duly entitled and ready for them. Conspiracy theorists dont worry I could introduce you to masons who think that I am mad in my attitude here.

[flyermay]

So as to avoid starting an argument with grandsecretary, I will put it this way.

When I joined an English Masonic Lodge in 1994 my only choices were the UGLE, Le Droit Humain (mixed Masonry) or a little known Lodge in London under the Grand Orient of France. If I was looking to become a Mason today I would have a further 3 choices.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

I was just curious about these differences and how they affect new members joining freemasonry. I mainly asked because it seems that some masons prefer one or another, and I wasn't sure if new candidates are supposed to research freemasonry before joining, they are told in their firsts meetings with the lodges, or if they become aware of these differences as they progress (and even change if appropriate).

Do you think these differences are evident and relevant in the blue degrees, or only about the 3rd degree?

[mike martin]

I was just curious about these differences and how they affect new members joining freemasonry. I mainly asked because it seems that some masons prefer one or another, and I wasn't sure if new candidates are supposed to research freemasonry before joining, they are told in their firsts meetings with the lodges, or if they become aware of these differences as they progress (and even change if appropriate).

Do you think these differences are evident and relevant in the blue degrees, or only about the 3rd degree?
It is quite possible to join one Obedience (as I call them) leave and join another. Grandsecretary has done that, a member of my Forum has left UGLE to join LDH another left LDH to join UGLE. Although they don't recognise each other you can leave one and join another.

As to learning before joining it is not an issue just many don't. I did and have never regretted it but then again I started out as an "Anti".

I posted this a long time ago, you might find it interesting: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=294627&postcount=108

Mike

[thelonious]

You know I still cant bring myself to do this. I have thought about it, but it just does not seem right and proper somehow.



Stewart, if it's any consolation, it was the Lodge that rejected your application who lost out, not you. You're more of a Mason than many, many men I've met in the Lodge.

[cheeney1]

I am afraid that you are flogging a dead horse here cheeney. Does that make you a sadistic necrophiliac with a penchant for bestiality?


Ha Ha That is So Funny FreeMason Wit, talk about a dead Horse More Like
Flogging Those Acting Classes You Drama Queen :rolleyes:

[grandsecretary]

So as to avoid starting an argument with grandsecretary, I will put it this way.

When I joined an English Masonic Lodge in 1994 my only choices were the UGLE, Le Droit Humain (mixed Masonry) or a little known Lodge in London under the Grand Orient of France. If I was looking to become a Mason today I would have a further 3 choices.

Mike

Thank you for your consideration Mike. For exactly the same reason, I joined the UGLE many years ago. The Grand Lodge of All England was revived in December 2005 in order to provide men with the opportunity to become Free Masons under the original system, which includes the religious Orders of the Holy and Royal Arch.

[terrier]

One is the religious ancient pre-Davidic form which came down to us from time immemorial via Celtic/Druidic/Christian roots; and the other is the Moderns system which has no real history prior to 1717 when it was self started by a very small number of Rosicrucian anti-Catholics, in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house. New system, new structure, new rituals.

The original system had no Master Mason's or any other "higher" degrees. These were the invention of Theophilus Desaguliers and his successors (Pike etc.) on behalf of a hierarchical, Moderns system.

A Fellow of the Craft of Freemasonry had "full and equal membership status" for want of a better description, in the same way as, a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, or a Fellow of the Royal Society was a full member of his society.

The Grand Lodge at York was known as The Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Free Masons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York. Its Fellows were its members. Even to this day, initiated members of the Society and Fraternity are Fellows of the Grand Lodge at York.

The Grand Lodge of All England does not use derogatory epithets such as "irregular" when describing other jurisdictions or their members. Freemasonry is an English word, not a property or a brand name to be owned by any particular organisation.

This is the last sentence of the the Statement of York which remains our position on this matter:



I hope that this explains the situation in England today.

yes it does,thank you.
saludos

[watson_k]

What exactly is the point of becoming a mason? What is it all about... and who is it for?
Would you consider it some sort of spiritual path? Explain please.

Since I don't think your questions have been answered, I'll attempt now.

As is obvious, we use words and speech to communicate. But this type of communication is only understandable to people of a particular region, even people of the same country have subtle differences.

We can use an example of 'Mate'. To anyone outside the British Isles or Australia, the words 'Mate' would mean lovers. So you were able to know exactly what I meant, If I was an Ancient Mason I'd use the following symbol:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6035/marsnvenus.jpg

From this you'd know exactly what I was talking about. Even when the English language is no longer used, the symbol will still mean the same thing.

The original purpose of becoming a Mason was the study of these Symbols from a more ancient past.
Make sure you realise this one thing, Masons are given the proper meaning behind their symbols. The uninitiated don't have the foggiest of the true meaning so they are unable to to testify their truthfulness or their falsity.
If I didn't tell you that it meant a mate. You could easily think I'm against 'Gays and Lesbians' because there is only the one male and female symbol, that are joined. (That's considering you knew each symbol meant male and female)

Who's it for:
Since we can trace Mason to the Chaldean word 'imga' meaning wise, holy and learned. If you consider yourself, a compassionate individual and consider yourself an intellectual (one that uses thought and reason) then Masonry is for you.

Now depending on your meaning of 'Spiritual' will depend on whether if it's a spiritual path. My definition of a Spiritual person, is one that helps others before themselves and contribute for the betterment of society, in that case Masonry for me would be a spiritual path.

Please note: This is my opinion, and it's what I consider the original purpose of Masonry. Whether they have been 'taken over' and turned against it's original purpose by bigots is another question entirely. I can't make it any easier than this to explain.

[flyermay]

Thanks Mike and GS,

I read your story into freemasonry Mike, and I'm curious, how did you find a freemason to recommend you to the lodge: did you knew other freemasons already, or did you went to the lodge directly seeking admission?

I have another question, please: yesterday I was watching a documentary about medieval cathedrals. As you probably know, many of them in Europe were made by freemasons, and some of those have Masonic symbols all around. Would a high degree freemason be able to understand those symbols (not only recognise them, but know what was meant by the mason that put them there)? What I mean is: are those symbols more than just Masonic decoration?

[watson_k]

Thanks Mike and GS,

I read your story into freemasonry Mike, and I'm curious, how did you find a freemason to recommend you to the lodge: did you knew other freemasons already, or did you went to the lodge directly seeking admission?

I have another question, please: yesterday I was watching a documentary about medieval cathedrals. As you probably know, many of them in Europe were made by freemasons, and some of those have Masonic symbols all around. Would a high degree freemason be able to understand those symbols (not only recognise them, but know what was meant by the mason that put them there)? What I mean is: are those symbols more than just Masonic decoration?

You understand the symbol language of English (written word) don't you?

[mike martin]

The original purpose of becoming a Mason was the study of these Symbols from a more ancient past.
Make sure you realise this one thing, Masons are given the proper meaning behind their symbols. The uninitiated don't have the foggiest of the true meaning so they are unable to to testify their truthfulness or their falsity.

Well almost. Symbols actually depict a whole idea. We don't sit in Lodge looking at symbols. We take part in ceremonies that explain certain things mainly to do with ideas of how our morals should be. These concepts are illustrated by the symbols. The symbols act as reminders.

Since we can trace Mason to the Chaldean word 'imga' meaning wise, holy and learned. If you consider yourself, a compassionate individual and consider yourself an intellectual (one that uses thought and reason) then Masonry is for you.
The whole thing about origins is that they are open to personal interpretation and there is no absolute right or wrong. I personally believe that our modern day Freemasonry can only trace its origin back to the medieval stone masons. The other theories are just too silly and i leave them for those who have a natural leaning toward mysticism.

Now depending on your meaning of 'Spiritual' will depend on whether if it's a spiritual path. My definition of a Spiritual person, is one that helps others before themselves and contribute for the betterment of society, in that case Masonry for me would be a spiritual path.
The lessons are not really spiritual, Freemasonry leaves that kind of thing to a person's own religious beliefs. The lessons are moral.

Mike

[flyermay]

You understand the symbol language of English (written word) don't you?

To a certain extent; I do.

But, what does this has to do with my question if medieval freemasons left symbols for decoration or as hidden messages for other Masons?

Wait, let me guess...

If I do undertand written English... then they do?
And if I don't undertand written English... then they don't?

I think I don't fully understand what your English symbols mean after all; they are too ambiguous!!!

[flyermay]

Ok, let me rephrase so that no one gets confused...

Do a series of symbols have a different meaning than just the sybology attached to each of them individually?

Did medieval freemasons, left messages (composed of various symbols, and not individual symbols) to other / future freemasons?

[mike martin]

I read your story into freemasonry Mike, and I'm curious, how did you find a freemason to recommend you to the lodge: did you knew other freemasons already, or did you went to the lodge directly seeking admission?
I personally sounded out people that I knew who I thought might be Freemasons. Bought it up in conversations etc. In the end and based on the oldest one in the book I worked my way through 8 Policemen that I came into contact with through work. One turned out to be a Mason and it went from there.

Nowadays it's far easier as every Grand Lodge has a website with contact emails. I was talking to a bloke the other day who truly believed that you had to be invited, he couldn't believe it when I explained the opposite was true.

I have another question, please: yesterday I was watching a documentary about medieval cathedrals. As you probably know, many of them in Europe were made by freemasons, and some of those have Masonic symbols all around. Would a high degree freemason be able to understand those symbols (not only recognise them, but know what was meant by the mason that put them there)? What I mean is: are those symbols more than just Masonic decoration?
Freemasonry is the evolution of the Stone Masons' guilds rather than a contiuation. The reality of Church and Cathedral bulding is that the symbolism in them was put there entirely as ordered by the Church. A lot of what people would like to believe is mysterious and Masonic is actually old Christian symbolism. Triangles, the No. 3, the No. 33, the No. 5, the all-seeing eye,etc etc

The church building stone Masons were Christians, the first Freemasons were all Christians, hence the majority of our symbolism is actually borrowed from Christianity and re-worked to have a Masonic lesson and meaning as well as their original Christian one. All the stuff that people talk about today (like egyptians and chaldeans etc) was just not around when the first Freemasons were doing their thing in the 15 and 1600s.

All the mystical ramblings were just added into the mix during the 18th and 19th Centuries, it's not genuine and half of it was added by non Masons.

Mike

[mike martin]

Do a series of symbols have a different meaning than just the sybology attached to each of them individually?
Symbolism is very confusing to people who don't actually have a real interest, I tried to do some basics in this Forum abou a year ago to help the misguided who see Masonic symbols everywhere.

My favourite way of trying to introduce the nebulous world of symbolism is with the swastika aka the Fylfot aka the gammadion aka the tetraskelion aka several other names as well.
The majority of people nowadays are fed their education through the television so they immediately assume that I am talking about one of the most evil symbols on the face of the planet. Unfortunately due to this form education they don't realise that it is over 4,000 years old and up until the 1930s it has been a very auspicious symbol in Hinduism and Buddhism etc. It has always symbolised good luck, good fortune, happiness and a myriad of other very good things. Unfortunately, for a brief period of time (about 15 years) it was borrowed by the Nazis who managed to completely destroy its true meaning in the West.

Symbols are movable, they do not hold a specific meaning. Their meanings are esoteric (means they have to be explained) and 15 different groups can use the same symbol and give it 15 different meanings.

Did medieval freemasons, left messages (composed of various symbols, and not individual symbols) to other / future freemasons?
No, they left whatever symbolism they were instructed to leave. The only symbols under their own control was there own "mark" which was their professional signature.

Mike

[terrier]

Since I don't think your questions have been answered, I'll attempt now.

As is obvious, we use words and speech to communicate. But this type of communication is only understandable to people of a particular region, even people of the same country have subtle differences.

We can use an example of 'Mate'. To anyone outside the British Isles or Australia, the words 'Mate' would mean lovers. So you were able to know exactly what I meant, If I was an Ancient Mason I'd use the following symbol:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6035/marsnvenus.jpg

From this you'd know exactly what I was talking about. Even when the English language is no longer used, the symbol will still mean the same thing.

The original purpose of becoming a Mason was the study of these Symbols from a more ancient past.
Make sure you realise this one thing, Masons are given the proper meaning behind their symbols. The uninitiated don't have the foggiest of the true meaning so they are unable to to testify their truthfulness or their falsity.
If I didn't tell you that it meant a mate. You could easily think I'm against 'Gays and Lesbians' because there is only the one male and female symbol, that are joined. (That's considering you knew each symbol meant male and female)

Who's it for:
Since we can trace Mason to the Chaldean word 'imga' meaning wise, holy and learned. If you consider yourself, a compassionate individual and consider yourself an intellectual (one that uses thought and reason) then Masonry is for you.

Now depending on your meaning of 'Spiritual' will depend on whether if it's a spiritual path. My definition of a Spiritual person, is one that helps others before themselves and contribute for the betterment of society, in that case Masonry for me would be a spiritual path.

Please note: This is my opinion, and it's what I consider the original purpose of Masonry. Whether they have been 'taken over' and turned against it's original purpose by bigots is another question entirely. I can't make it any easier than this to explain.

what a good post, thank you of your way of seeing it my brother
saludos chris

[flyermay]

I personally sounded out people that I knew who I thought might be Freemasons. Bought it up in conversations etc. In the end and based on the oldest one in the book I worked my way through 8 Policemen that I came into contact with through work. One turned out to be a Mason and it went from there.

:eek: What are you telling me!!!

And then you come and argue with me that 1 in 6 policemen are not freemasons? :mad:

Freemasonry is the evolution of the Stone Masons' guilds rather than a contiuation. The reality of Church and Cathedral bulding is that the symbolism in them was put there entirely as ordered by the Church. A lot of what people would like to believe is mysterious and Masonic is actually old Christian symbolism. Triangles, the No. 3, the No. 33, the No. 5, the all-seeing eye,etc etc

The church building stone Masons were Christians, the first Freemasons were all Christians, hence the majority of our symbolism is actually borrowed from Christianity and re-worked to have a Masonic lesson and meaning as well as their original Christian one. All the stuff that people talk about today was just not around when the first Freemasons were doing their thing in the 15 and 1600s.

All the mystical ramblings were just added into the mix during the 18th and 19th Centuries, it's not genuine and half of it was added by non Masons.

Mike

I'm wondering if any freemasons here heard about the Cross of Hendaye? It was built by an alchemist and freemason 350 years ago in Hendaye, South of France.

The reason I asked about the symbols is because this cross has four symbols on each of the four sides of the base, which match exactly four cards of the tarot (17, 18, 19 and 20). One of the faces has the symbol of the cross inside a circle with four "A".

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=333&pictureid=3527

If you notices the "A", they represent the 60º compass and the 90º square, commonly used by freemasons.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=333&pictureid=3528

I don't know if you are following me... I think you said you were not into esoterism, so I'm not sure if this question is relevant to you. Either way, it is supposed that those symbols in sequence can be understood by other alchemists or freemasons, and that in fact, that precise sequence has a specific meaning.

I'm not sure it makes any sense; maybe Thelonious knows what I'm talking about.

[flyermay]

Sorry, 60 and 90 degrees

[mike martin]

:eek: What are you telling me!!!

And then you come and argue with me that 1 in 6 policemen are not freemasons? :mad:
The thing was that I expected all of them to be on the square, i was still believing that at that point in time.

I'm wondering if any freemasons here heard about the Cross of Hendaye? It was built by an alchemist and freemason 350 years ago in Hendaye, South of France.

The reason I asked about the symbols is because this cross has four symbols on each of the four sides of the base, which match exactly four cards of the tarot (17, 18, 19 and 20). One of the faces has the symbol of the cross inside a circle with four "A".

If you notices the "A", they represent the 30º compass and the 45º square, commonly used by freemasons.
Nope not heard of it until you posted it. I'd be interested to hear who the man was? Unlikely he was a Freemason as Freemasonry didn't reach France until after the UGLE was formed in 1717. (Freemasonry is a peculiarly British thing, it started here and spread elsewhere during the days of the empire.) So if he was a Freemason it cannot be older than 300 years old.

Ok they are "A"s, they could almost be "squares" but the bit in the middle and the fact that they are not 90 degrees stops that from being true, the squares in that image are the actual cross within the circle, there are four. The cricle with the lines is more likley a "sun wheel".

A square must be 90 degrees and it also cannot have an obstruction as its internal angle was used to ensure that the edges of each stone were true. Also the bit in the middle is part of the "A" if it was the compasses (which don't have a particular angle BTW) they must be separate from the square, as the S&C is two distinct symbols that are conjoined.

My initial reaction is not Masonic most likely alchemist inspired. Unfortunately I know nothing about alchemy so couldn't even guess what it's supposed to mean.

I don't know if you are following me... I think you said you were not into esoterism, so I'm not sure if this question is relevant to you. Either way, it is supposed that those symbols in sequence can be understood by other alchemists or freemasons, and that in fact, that precise sequence has a specific meaning.
I said I was not into "mysticism", esotericism is my thing. They are not the same, or even close.

Just another thing, I just tried googling the cross to find a better picture. Have you ever noticed that the pictures of it change (ie completely different) depending on which website you look at.

Mike

[flyermay]

Nope not heard of it until you posted it. I'd be interested to hear who the man was? Unlikely he was a Freemason as Freemasonry didn't reach France until after the UGLE was formed in 1717. (Freemasonry is a peculiarly British thing, it started here and spread elsewhere during the days of the empire.) So if he was a Freemason it cannot be older than 300 years old.

Ok they are "A"s, they could almost be "squares" but the bit in the middle and the fact that they are not 90 degrees stops that from being true, the squares in that image are the actual cross within the circle, there are four. The cricle with the lines is more likley a "sun wheel".

A square must be 90 degrees and it also cannot have an obstruction as its internal angle was used to ensure that the edges of each stone were true. Also the bit in the middle is part of the "A" if it was the compasses (which don't have a particular angle BTW) they must be separate from the square, as the S&C is two distinct symbols that are conjoined.

My initial reaction is not Masonic most likely alchemist inspired. Unfortunately I know nothing about alchemy so couldn't even guess what it's supposed to mean.

I said I was not into "mysticism", esotericism is my thing. They are not the same, or even close.

Just another thing, I just tried googling the cross to find a better picture. Have you ever noticed that the pictures of it change (ie completely different) depending on which website you look at.

Mike

That's a petty, I've been quite intrigued since yesterday about what this guy Fulcanelli wrote. Either way, thanks for pointing out the web is full of info about the cross, I also had no idea it was so famous (though I was more interested in knowing if there could be more secret messages hidden in medieval cathedrals than in this one in particular piece -as Fulcanelli already revealed all its secrets-).

Yes, I have to agree with you, the outer side of the "A" is definitely not 60º (which was supposed to be the compass), though I still see the inner side at 90º (representing the square). You are probably right, and the guy was probably only alchemist; and though a mason, not a freemason.

I have a doubt: are freemasons familiar with the meaning of the tarot cards? (I mean, as freemasons not as a personal interest).

[watson_k]

The whole thing about origins is that they are open to personal interpretation and there is no absolute right or wrong. I personally believe that our modern day Freemasonry can only trace its origin back to the medieval stone masons. The other theories are just too silly and i leave them for those who have a natural leaning toward mysticism.

The only thing I interpreted was how Masons use Symbols and how people without the understanding of the Symbols can never know the true meaning behind it. Using an example I made up which was 'Mate'.

The rest including the History of the word Mason comes from a High Degree Mason named Brother Henry Melville, who wrote a book called 'Veritas', Published 1874, with 40 Years of work. Yet is never looked upon whereas Morals and Dogma is taken almost as Bible and it was only first Published 3 years previous.

[mike martin]

I have a doubt: are freemasons familiar with the meaning of the tarot cards? (I mean, as freemasons not as a personal interest).
Let me put it this way, in 15 years as a freemason I have never come across Tarot involved in any Masonic meeting.

During my own studies of Masonic History I have come across Manly Palmer Hall who was both a Theosophist and a Rosicrucian and he also had a big interest in Tarot. IIRC he commisioned a Tarot deck based on Masonic symbolism in 1929. However, didn't become a Freemason until 1953.

Mike

[mike martin]

The rest including the History of the word Mason comes from a High Degree Mason named Brother Henry Melville, who wrote a book called 'Veritas', Published 1874, with 40 Years of work. Yet is never looked upon whereas Morals and Dogma is taken almost as Bible and it was only first Published 3 years previous.

I have a book recommendation for you: "The Unlocked Secret" by James Dewar, you can buy it for about £1.50 on www.abebooks,co.uk . He wasn't a Mason, he didn't particularly like us and he rarely turns down the chance to slag us off but I have to admit he did do his research properly unlike others I could mention.

Mike

[watson_k]

I have a book recommendation for you: "The Unlocked Secret" by James Dewar, you can buy it for about £1.50 on www.abebooks,co.uk . He wasn't a Mason, he didn't particularly like us and he rarely turns down the chance to slag us off but I have to admit he did do his research properly unlike others I could mention.

Mike

Who are these others you mention?

[watson_k]

Let me put it this way, in 15 years as a freemason I have never come across Tarot involved in any Masonic meeting.



I'm beginning to question what exactly you do at Masonic lodges now. They obviously have no connection to their origins. It seems modern masons from what I've read of from your experience within your Lodge, has taken out everything of substance. I have a few uncles in Provincial Grand Lodge of Hampshire & Isle of Wight, hopefully they can set the record straight.
It really just seems like a working mans club that acts as a charity in modern times.

[mike martin]

Who are these others you mention?
I said could which kind of implies that I'm not going to. I am enjoying a bit of respite from the usual attacks I get round here:D

Mike

[watson_k]

I said could which kind of implies that I'm not going to. I am enjoying a bit of respite from the usual attacks I get round here:D

Mike

I wish I could say that to my college professors.

[mike martin]

I'm beginning to question what exactly you do at Masonic lodges now. They obviously have no connection to their origins. It seems modern masons from what I've read of from your experience within your Lodge, has taken out everything of substance. I have a few uncles in Provincial Grand Lodge of Hampshire & Isle of Wight, hopefully they can set the record straight.
It really just seems like a working mans club that acts as a charity in modern times.

I mentioned part of it a few posts back:
Well almost. Symbols actually depict a whole idea. We don't sit in Lodge looking at symbols. We take part in ceremonies that explain certain things mainly to do with ideas of how our morals should be. These concepts are illustrated by the symbols. The symbols act as reminders.

The lessons are not really spiritual, Freemasonry leaves that kind of thing to a person's own religious beliefs. The lessons are moral.

Add to that general business of the Lodge, sometimes having a guest speaker on topics of Masonic interest (we've got a guy at our next meeting doing a talk on Masonry during the War and had one a while ago about the Masonic llife of Rudyard Kipling) then we have a dinner where we can all catch up on what we've been doing since the last meeting.

Defo ask your uncles anyway, they'll be impressed that you're taking an interest and don't forget to ask them about the Grand Charity.

Mike

[watson_k]

I mentioned part of it a few posts back:


Add to that general business of the Lodge, sometimes having a guest speaker on topics of Masonic interest (we've got a guy at our next meeting doing a talk on Masonry during the War and had one a while ago about the Masonic llife of Rudyard Kipling) then we have a dinner where we can all catch up on what we've been doing since the last meeting.

Defo ask your uncles anyway, they'll be impressed that you're taking an interest and don't forget to ask them about the Grand Charity.

Mike

Sorry lol, I really should read more before just typing away mindlessly.

[stewart edwards]

esotericism is my thing.When did that happen Mike?:eek:

[grandsecretary]

Nope not heard of it until you posted it. I'd be interested to hear who the man was? Unlikely he was a Freemason as Freemasonry didn't reach France until after the UGLE was formed in 1717. (Freemasonry is a peculiarly British thing, it started here and spread elsewhere during the days of the empire.) So if he was a Freemason it cannot be older than 300 years old.

Mike, Free Masonry came to England from France in early medieval times. You really must stop making such sweeping statements based upon the modern history of The Grand Lodge of London which was self started in 1717. The UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England) was not formed until 1813.

This is misinformation if you do not differentiate between your Moderns system and what went on for many hundreds of years previously.

There is EVERY chance that this man was a Free Mason.

[flyermay]

Mike, Free Masonry came to England from France in early medieval times. You really must stop making such sweeping statements based upon the modern history of The Grand Lodge of London which was self started in 1717. The UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England) was not formed until 1813.

This is misinformation if you do not differentiate between your Moderns system and what went on for hundreds of years previously.

There is EVERY chance that this man was a Free Mason.

I really appreciate this bit of information GS.

[boots]

LOL

Freemasonry came to England via the Knights Templars. after they were rightfully disbanded by the french for being the heathens that they were.

They landed in Scotland and built Roslyn Chapel and eventually called themselves Freemasons after infiltrating the Stone masons.

The church saw them for what they were and have never allowed them to become Christians, which is a joke in it's self, as the Church is part of a plan for a NWO.

Then you have theses clowns who start up there own factions lol. thinking they have a better form of it. What a laugh. When all along they are being used by the illuminati satanists.

.Thats the point of freemasonry. THEY ARE TOOLS. to be used.

.

.

[eternal_spirit]

This word, or one very similar, was used by the Moderns form of freemasonry in their Royal Arch degree.

It was ditched a few years ago, but the secret name for God, which was to be found on the plate of gold on top of the altar in the crypt of King Solomon's Temple was Jahbulon.

The word Jehovah was also used at the same time, but since Jahbulon ceased to be used, the single word, Jehovah, known as "The Sacred Word" has been maintained.

The explanation of "The Sacred and Mysterious name", is that it is derived from the Chaldee word, Jah, meaning God, the Syriac word bul, meaning Lord, and the Egyptian word on, meaning Father of All.

Interesting Jehovah is Yahweh which brings us back to Kabbalah, which claims to give the hidden names of God which would be? Yahweh, or something else such as Jahbalon? hidden names being plural suggest more than one name for God, have read that Yahweh is actually Alah. - Kabba (geometry perfect ashlar) Kabbalah The dome on the rock Solomon's Temple, islam claims Salayman built the "dome", and tell the same story as the Jews about how Solomon built his Temple (Salayman is Solomon) the Dome may well be Solomon's temple.

The Egyptian Pyramids also relate to sacred numbers Geometry. Charles Taze Russel was buried under a Pyramid (he founded the Jehovahs Witnesses and was believed to be 33rd degree mason)

[grandsecretary]

LOL

Freemasonry came to England via the Knights Templars. after they were rightfully disbanded by the french for being the heathens that they were.

They landed in Scotland and built Roslyn Chapel and eventually called themselves Freemasons after infiltrating the Stone masons.

The church saw them for what they were and have never allowed them to become Christians, which is a joke in it's self, as the Church is part of a plan for a NWO.

Then you have theses clowns who start up there own factions lol. thinking they have a better form of it. What a laugh. When all along they are being used by the illuminati satanists.

.Thats the point of freemasonry. THEY ARE TOOLS. to be used.

.

.

Total cobblers posted by an ignoramus.

[grandsecretary]

Interesting Jehovah is Yahweh which brings us back to Kabbalah, which claims to give the hidden names of God which would be? Yahweh, or something else such as Jahbalon? hidden names being plural suggest more than one name for God, have read that Yahweh is actually Alah. - Kabba (geometry perfect ashlar) Kabbalah The dome on the rock Solomon's Temple, islam claims Salayman built the "dome", and tell the same story as the Jews about how Solomon built his Temple (Salayman is Solomon) the Dome may well be Solomon's temple.

The Egyptian Pyramids also relate to sacred numbers Geometry. Charles Taze Russel was buried under a Pyramid (he founded the Jehovahs Witnesses and was believed to be 33rd degree mason)

Don't forget that the founders of the Moderns system of freemasonry were Rosicrucians who called upon eastern mysticism for their ceremonies.

[boots]

Total cobblers posted by an ignoramus.

A beg your pardon.:rolleyes:

Did the FACTS touch a raw nerve??

You are here to NOT tell the truth but to mislead.

.

[boots]

Moderns are an abomination of freemasonry, which is an abomination in of it's self.

They are both being used by the secret cabal.


THINK


.

[grandsecretary]

A beg your pardon.:rolleyes:

Did the FACTS touch a raw nerve??

You are here to NOT tell the truth but to mislead.

.

You are misleading us all with your Enid Blyton version of English history, and so if I wanted to mislead, I would simply leave it to you.

Gormless, and deliberately gormless, which is worse. This man is very fortunate that reflex action saved his life. From the moment he was born he has been incapable of learning how to take a breath.

[boots]

You are misleading us all with your Enid Blyton version of English history, and so if I wanted to mislead, I would simply leave it to you.

Gormless, and deliberately gormless, which is worse. This man is very fortunate that reflex action saved his life. From the moment he was born he has been incapable of learning how to take a breath.

Oh how quaint :rolleyes:

Do you ever think out side the box? or is it all too hard for your ego to take.

I guess you believe all what the MSM tells you and the history that is has been promoted by the secret cabal?

.

[grandsecretary]

Oh how quaint :rolleyes:

Do you ever think out side the box? or is it all too hard for your ego to take.

I guess you believe all what the MSM tells you and the history that is has been promoted by the secret cabal?

.

No. Our Grand Lodge does its own research. This research is carried out by a team of very distinguished historians, and academics, Masonic and non-Masonic. I am but one member of this team.

You however, have an annoying habit of making ludicrously ignorant statements about English history and the history of Free Masonry, but steadfastly lack the humility to take advantage of what is freely offered to you, or to ask a question and then listen to the answer.

These are the actions of the true philistine.

[boots]

No. Our Grand Lodge does its own research. This research is carried out by a team of very distinguished historians, and academics, Masonic and non-Masonic. I am but one member of this team.

You however, have an annoying habit of making ludicrously ignorant statements about English history and the history of Free Masonry, but steadfastly lack the humility to take advantage of what is freely offered to you, or to ask a question and then listen to the answer.

These are the actions of the true philistine.

Oh right lol.

Do you think I'd take poison from a deceiver.

Your info is designed to falsify the truth. Your so called researches only learn form the disinfo feed to them.

Really, do you expect any one to believe your crap.

.

[thelonious]

Charles Taze Russel was buried under a Pyramid (he founded the Jehovahs Witnesses and was believed to be 33rd degree mason)

Just for the record, Russell is not "believed to be a 33rd degree mason". The two Supreme Councils in the United States have always published the recipents of the 33° in their bi-annual transactions, and Russell was never included in any list, nor does any Lodge have a record of him ever becoming a Freemason at all of any degree.

He was quoted as saying: "Although I have never been a Mason, I have heard that in Masonry they have something which very closely illustrates all of this".

http://www.cephas-library.com/jw_was_russell_a_mason.html

[eternal_spirit]

Just for the record, Russell is not "believed to be a 33rd degree mason". The two Supreme Councils in the United States have always published the recipents of the 33° in their bi-annual transactions, and Russell was never included in any list, nor does any Lodge have a record of him ever becoming a Freemason at all of any degree.

He was quoted as saying: "Although I have never been a Mason, I have heard that in Masonry they have something which very closely illustrates all of this".

http://www.cephas-library.com/jw_was_russell_a_mason.html
Not my words but sure you'll like this little lot. You can sort out the wheat from the chaff (challenge to any freemason reading)

Fritz Springmeier and Manly P hall make a few comments about them

This is where Charles Taze Russell, 33rd Degree Freemason and founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult is buried
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/3777/russelltomb3vf1.jpg

Charles Russell even gave a sermon in which he stated that Jesus Christ was the "Grand Master" of this Order to which Russell and the rest of the Jehovah's Witnesses belonged! He stated:

"...the Lord Jesus, the grand and everlasting Head and Master of this Order...the Grand Master....We are not hindered from telling the ultimate purposes of this grand Secret Order which our Lord organized..."

But this tactic of trying to make Jesus Christ of Nazareth the head of a Secret Order devoted to the occult is nothing new. Adam Weishaupt states exactly the same thing about his Secret Order of the Illuminati, which is devoted to the occult:

"Jesus of Nazareth, the Grand Master of our Order, appeared at a time when the world was in the utmost disorder...he took in the aid of Religion...and, in a very clever manner, he combined his secret doctrines with the popular religion...and they have been handed down to us...by the Free Masons."

So there is very little difference seen between the "Order" or the Jehovah's Witnesses church that Russell founded, and the Order which Weishaupt founded for the purpose of bringing in and ruling a New Age. In fact Russell frequently talked about this New Age--calling it a "Golden Age" to come. He preached a sermon on it entitled "Must We Abandon Hope of a Golden Age." He even established a paper called The Golden Age which is now called Awake.

But is this teaching of the "Golden Age to come" exclusively Charles Russell's and the Jehovah's Witnesses? No!

"...the 17,500 [Masonic] lodges of the U.S. and Canada...are to act as harbingers of that 'New Order of the Ages,' that Great Golden Age that is to come...May the Masonic Order become reoriented to make its peculiar contribution to that Glorious Objective."

But this hope of a "Golden Age to come" does not originate with the Masons either. It is an ancient Egyptian and Babylonian term specifying the time which "men and gods could live together happily." Hence we see that this great push towards a New World Order for the Ages, is nothing more than the ancient Plan for a One World System.

But these occultic and spiritualistic teachings of Russell's did not pass away when he died, but continue within the church of Jehovah's Witnesses. The church teaches the New Age belief that "Now we are in the end of this gospel age, and the kingdom [of Christ] is being established or set up." That this kingdom "will obtain full, universal control...in the earth, [and that] He whose right it is thus to take dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler" who will reign over "the new order of things on earth" in "His millennial kingdom."

They even teach that:

"...our minds [must be made] over so as to transform our lives in expectation of the approaching new world.... "Let us keep our minds new...[and then if] we live through this old world's complete end, we shall enter the new world with a mind made over...in tune with the glorious new world."

In fact they claim that the Society of Jehovah's Witnesses is "the New World society"! This society, ever since the days of Russell, is also involved in Pyramidology or the study of its geometric shape and measurements in order to predict future events. They even claim that it was the God of heaven that designed the pyramid!

"In the passages of the Great Pyramid [Cheops] of Giza...[when the measurements are combined with chronology] proves that the same God designed both pyramid and plan..."

But did God have anything to do with the plan or design of the Great Pyramids? No. Masonic leader Manly P. Hall writes:

"[To] the Egyptians the Great Pyramid was associated with Hermes, the god of wisdom and letters and the Divine Illuminator...the pyramid...was in reality the supreme temple of the Invisible and Supreme Deity....the first temple of the Mysteries, the first structure erected as a repository for those secret truths... "Through the mystic passageways and chambers of the Great Pyramid passed the illumined of antiquity. They entered its portals as men; they came forth as gods. It was the place of the 'second birth,' the 'womb of the Mysteries,' and ...Somewhere in the depths of its recesses there resided an unknown being who was called 'The Initiator,' or 'The Illustrious One..."

This "Initiator" into the Mysteries we know to be Lucifer, or Satan. So you can see that Jehovah's Witnesses are clearly involved with the teachings of Masonry, and hence the spiritualistic Luciferic doctrines of ancient Babylon.


What of our time? On Friday morning, October 2, 1914, Charles Taze Russell, who took the lead at that time among the Bible Students, strode into the dining room at Bethel in Brooklyn, New York. "Good morning, all," he said cheerily. Then, before taking his seat, he joyfully announced: "The Gentile times have ended; their kings have had their day." Once again, the time had come for Jehovah, the Sovereign of the universe, to act in behalf of his people. And act he did!

[grandsecretary]

Just for the record, Russell is not "believed to be a 33rd degree mason". The two Supreme Councils in the United States have always published the recipents of the 33° in their bi-annual transactions, and Russell was never included in any list, nor does any Lodge have a record of him ever becoming a Freemason at all of any degree.

He was quoted as saying: "Although I have never been a Mason, I have heard that in Masonry they have something which very closely illustrates all of this".

http://www.cephas-library.com/jw_was_russell_a_mason.html

Oh dear. How annoying. Next.

[boots]

Not my words but sure you'll like this little lot. You can sort out the wheat from the chaff (challenge to any freemason reading)

Fritz Springmeier and Manly P hall make a few comments about them

This is where Charles Taze Russell, 33rd Degree Freemason and founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult is buried
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/3777/russelltomb3vf1.jpg

!

Very good info ES


It go's to show that freemasonry has it's fingers in all the pie's.

Their biggest lever for domination is Zionist Israel.

.

[boots]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61813

A good thread explaining the Masonic control of Israel. Must have been to hot to handle for the masons not one of them posted on it Correction watson K who didn't know what the subject matter was.

.

[eternal_spirit]

trictly speaking, this ought to be rendered 'Yahweh,' which is familiar to modern readers in the erroneous form of 'Jehovah.' Were this a version intended for students of the original, there would be no hesitation whatever in printing 'Yahweh.'" (James Moffet's preface to his translation of the Bible)
The Jehovah's Witnesses acknowledge that the name "Jehovah" is improper. Their book, "Let Your Name Be Sanctified" freely admits on pages 16 and 18 that Yahweh is the superior translation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). This book has lately been withdrawn. However, in the preface of their "The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures," we find on page 23 the following admission:

Adonai Yahweh El Shaddai


Lord Yahweh God Almighty. For many years it was appropriate to say: "Well, we don't really know the correct and proper Name of God, as it has been lost, and we definitely don't know how to pronounce it." That is not true today, due to archeological finds, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and a better concept of history, and understanding of scripture and the Hebrew language. The Jews, also, are more open in admitting why the Masoretes hid the Name of God, a Name too sacred -- they believed -- for even Jews to pronounce, let alone heathen dogs. When you combine the Tetragrammaton with the vowels of "Adonai," you get a name "that cannot be pronounced!" Not because it is too holy, but because it is literally impossible to pronounce (in English it has been transliterated as "Jehovah")
http://www.truthseek.net/Yahweh.html

Originally Posted by eternal_spirit
Interesting Jehovah is Yahweh which brings us back to Kabbalah, which claims to give the hidden names of God which would be? Yahweh, or something else such as Jahbalon? hidden names being plural suggest more than one name for God, have read that Yahweh is actually Alah. - Kabba (geometry perfect ashlar) Kabbalah The dome on the rock Solomon's Temple, islam claims Salayman built the "dome", and tell the same story as the Jews about how Solomon built his Temple (Salayman is Solomon) the Dome may well be Solomon's temple.

The Egyptian Pyramids also relate to sacred numbers Geometry.