Atheist Vs. Agnostic [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

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archangel

10-07-2007, 11:48 PM

john white

11-07-2007, 12:08 AM

cheeb

11-07-2007, 12:10 AM

what exactly is the the definition of each?

I was under the impression that Atheiests belive there is no God, No after life, Nothing after you die. You live on earth, Then you die and it is simply lights out.

And I thought Agnostic meant that you you don't really believe in religion but believe there is some higher power/GOD/ or an after life.

The thing I'm confused about is I hear people on here say there are atheist but then talk about the supernatural/afterlife, etc. Isn't this contradictory to what an atheist is?

what am I missing here.

I was gonna put this somewhere else, but here cropped up,
a good a place as any

Being an atheist, christian, jew,muslim,buddist ,biker or badass
It's a choice that we/you make
It is a little label that we put on ourselves'
To identify/give substance to who we think we are

But ultimateley it doesn't matter
It's our actions/deeds that define us

I can't speak for other people
I only know my own experiences of this world'
So for me anecdotal evidence is important.
(Today-Tommorow it will be scientific and quantative)

My Anectdote:

Aethism is a great religion ,when things are running smoothly,
When things go "tits up"
thats when God comes in handy

For me I take my God ,in the form of Catholicsm
Because of the ritual,
For most of the time,
I can take it, or leave it

But he does ,a bloody good christening
and an excellent funeral

For the jews, he does a good barmitzvah
For Muslims he does a bloody good Haaj'

For Atheists, bit of a dour funeral,
Not worth the effort.

It's a choice.

POE

PTTP

anoninnyc

11-07-2007, 01:43 AM

an atheist believes that god does not exist

an agnostic does not know whether god exists or not. i am an agnostic i suppose as how can i truly know? i will find out when i die perhaps.

deists believe in a god/higher power/whatever you call it but also believe that this god created and then abandoned its creation. a deist believes it is pointless to pray.

cheeb

11-07-2007, 02:11 AM

archangel

11-07-2007, 02:56 AM

confusing

Free Masons claim to be atheists but then refer to the "great architect of the Universe" and "GOD"...

so how are they atheists?

anoninnyc

11-07-2007, 09:04 PM

Pick and mix
what does it really matter'
labels,
the definition of ones place in the world,
nice pidgeonhole you got there.
POE
PTtP

well archangel asked for the definition of each.

it does not really matter to me.......... and i am not so presumptuous to think that i have any of the answers. that is why if i must be labeled it would be as an agnostic.......... meaning i do not know and know that i do not know.

anoninnyc

11-07-2007, 09:07 PM

confusing

Free Masons claim to be atheists but then refer to the "great architect of the Universe" and "GOD"...

so how are they atheists?

they are most definitely not atheists. they are liars.

titurel

11-07-2007, 09:43 PM

I know this is an obvious question but why not look in the dictionary to find out what the words 'atheism' and 'agnostic' means?

seanx

11-07-2007, 10:24 PM

anoninnyc

11-07-2007, 10:35 PM

john white

11-07-2007, 10:42 PM

i completely agree. it is so funny just how similar the religous people and the atheists are.

They are opposames, in as much as they both read scripture literally

titurel

11-07-2007, 10:57 PM

Both the God-believers and the atheists share one thing in common:
incredible arrogance.

The Christians, the Muslims, Jews etc believe there is a God ..and only
they understand and have direct access to him.

The atheists , even though at present humanity has direct knowledge
of less than 1% of reality - can still claim there is no God, no
overriding, slient intelligence creating our reality.

Surely the only reasonable position - at this stage of humanity
development, ( we're only about 1 or 2 years old, in relative terms!)
is to keep an open mind.
That is a very silimar argument to John White's argument that one belief sytem shouldn't offend another. I agree but it depends what side of the fence one is sitting on. Here's the gist of what I wrote to John in another thread...

"How might an orthodox Jew feel about a Christian claiming the Old Testament as their own?" John asks.

But he twists what I think....

I have never, claimed to own the Bible. I discuss the Bible which is there on the table for anyone.

The Bible doesn't even have to be directly paid for these days with the apocalyptic advent of the Internet.

Therefore, the claim that Christians claim the OT as their own, only applies to those inhabiting the brain-washing apparatus that is Christendom, which acts like an umbrella organised for religions. It was she that argued that the book was her own. It is also she that argues today, through the Ecumenical Movement and the World Council of Churches that all these denominational religions should be ONE because it's an offense that one of her Religions should be more supreme than another.

Freemasonry and the New Age Movement has an identical argument to the Harlot of Christendom.

In fact, this argument that we should not offend other faiths is identical to the argument that argument people with one set of beliefs shouldn't disagree with another. All sides in the meantime, insight they are right, including those of the atheist and Gnostic belief systems.

Prince Charles, heir to the House of Windsor and descendant of the Merovingian blood-line, also holds the same argument. It's an argument that underpins a plank of the political NWO agenda orchestrated by the Reptilians, for the purposes of keeping us all in the Matrix of illusion that David Icke goes on about and which I thoroughly agree is a major psychological problem for a lot of people.

It is the pro political NWO agenda argument that we should all not offend other religions.

Therefore, it's that argument that is dividing humanity, and it's those that follow it who are helping the "divide and rule" agenda along, and it won't be acknowledged by many because because they're trapped in the mind control Matrix that descends on some people like a trance. The best people to control are those that believe they are free.

john white

11-07-2007, 11:12 PM

titurel, if you are going to mix responses across threads and misrepresent me, can you at least try to quote accurately? These cheap attempts at point scoring are only demeaning to yourself

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3857

You know it’s a funny thing Titurel, because you are not apparently aware how consistently insulting your own attitude to scripture is

How might an orthodox Jew feel about a Christian claiming the Old Testament as their own? How might a Muslim feel about a Christian dismissing the Koran when it preserves more of the original Christian writings than the New Testament does? How should a Hindu feel about Christians arrogantly asserting the primacy of their cultural tradition of understanding God than their own? How should a Buddhist feel about a Christian dismissing the sutra's as "oneness crap?" How might a Maori feel about a western failing to recognise the popal vu? Can you not see that this is an implicit insult to the diversity of human God consciousness?

You recognise yourself as not flawless: therefore, as having flaws. If God tapped you on the shoulder and inspired you and you struggled with your mind to find the words to express the glories your soul beheld, would you be able to do so flawlessly? Would the words you used not be dependant on the words you knew to use, or could find to use? Would not the perspectives you expressed by dependent on the perspectives you are capable of understanding? Would you, therefore, be able to create flawless scripture to honour your contact with the divine? And if you could not, why should anyone else?

I am suggesting that rather than fight over whose translation of contact with God is superior, which allows the illuminati to divide and rule us, we should be celebrating the diversity of experiences with God that mankind has had, and be at least open to finding the glory of God within all of them

What is the alternative? My way is the only way? Everyone else is going to burn? Conformity or death?

Well, that’s hardly the path of defending against the New world Order: that’s the path of facilitating the New World Order

You condemn me for your belief that what I am saying is what Princes Charles says, about not insulting people: when what I am saying is that we should develop understading and empathy for people: therefore, you condemn me for saying understanding and empathy are qualities we need?

The twist in the reply is yours, becuase you avoid stating that you DO respect Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists and so on

Well DO You?

Do you respect them?

Do you hold their books to be their own scripture?

Do you hold these books to be inspired by God?

Or do you not?

Yet, if you do not hold these texts to be scripture, on what basis can you expect others to uphold what YOU beleive?

The flaw of scripture is all to apparent in your own responses: the flaw it inspires in mans ego to so limit God as to believe he is NOT in all the books, that God is so limited to be contained only in one!

Frankly: how dare you so insult "him"! Open your heart to "his" magnificence!

titurel

11-07-2007, 11:59 PM

titurel, if you are going to mix responses across threads and misrepresent me, can you at least try to quote accurately? These cheap attempts at point scoring are only demeaning to yourself
I mixed responses because I was replying to a poster who making similar points as you. I did alter the text considerably to compensate too. Anyhow, you are trying to point score, but here is my reply to the reply you put in quotes above. I shall do the same:

You condemn me for your belief that what I am saying is what Princes Charles says, about not insulting people: when what I am saying is that we should develop understading and empathy for people: therefore, you condemn me for saying understanding and empathy are qualities we need?
I'm not condemning you... I'm disagreeing with you. Big difference! I agree with you that we should promote understanding and empathy, but there are still issues we disagree on, such as your accusation that scripture is flawed. You have not proved that pertinent scripture is not inspired by God who is not flawed.

It would be far, far better if we could agree to disagree, rather than to agree on something one of us isn't going to believe in. Agreeing to disagree does not have to involve one side offending another, even!

The twist in the reply is yours, becuase you avoid stating that you DO respect Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists and so on

Well DO You?

Do you respect them?
Yes, I also respect the illuminati in the sense that I do not criminally abuse them. It's just that I disagree with their philosophy. I exercise my right of FREE SPEECH within the bounds of what is acceptable. We can always agree to disagree and maintain respect. No need for physical fighting or war. The pen is mightier than the sword.

Do you hold their books to be their own scripture?
Of course it is their own scripture. Mother Babylon has dictated that that should be so but she is now changing her tune and demanding that all religions be united as one... for the political NWO.

Do you hold these books to be inspired by God?

Or do you not?
No I do not. That is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Agree to disagree and maintain respect.

Yet, if you do not hold these texts to be scripture, on what basis can you expect others to uphold what YOU beleive?
Some agree with me, others not. That's life John and you have to learn live with it. One day we may all be ONE but the NWO agenda, which I'm not in favour of, has to be set aside first and for me that does not involve taking sides with what Mother Babylon preaches that all her religions should be one under her umbrella. I choose another umbrella and that is God's. If one has no umbrella at all... one will get wet until one decides.

The flaw of scripture is all to apparent in your own responses: the flaw it inspires in mans ego to so limit God as to believe he is NOT in all the books, that God is so limited to be contained only in one!

I happen to agree with you that there is truth, and therefore echoes of God, in all religious texts, except the most Satanic, but I happen to take the view that only the books of the Bible, and may be a few extra related ones that the Vatican left out, are inspired by God. The rest were, IMO, inspired by the Reptilians, the fallen host of heaven. Yes, even the Reptilians can project images of God and that's what they do... they mix truths with deceptions, whilst posing as beings of light and claiming to be comforters and protectors of humanity. Reptilians are very crafty Beings. That's my opinion. We can agree to disagree.

cheeb

12-07-2007, 12:33 AM

i completely agree. it is so funny just how similar the religous people and the atheists are.

Why tar all aetheists with the same brush
Joseph Stalin.>>>>>>>>> John Lennon
I see no similarity
Why tar all Christians with a bigger brush
Jesus(was he a christian)>>>>>>>>>> Jehovas Witnesses
Jim Jones>>>>>>>>That mad baker family in America,Protesting,
At servicemens funerals against gays>>>>>>>>>Donny Osmond

Atheism is a broad field
Christianity, well thats even broader
Catholics
Protestants
J.W's
Mormons
&th Day etc..............

I'm sure Titurel is far removed from David Koresh
Although they both profess to know Christ

As is Adolph Hitler is from Mahatma Ghandi
Although they both were vegitarians!

Opposames

Thats a kop out soundbite

Bland Sloganeering!!!

POE
T
T
PeOPLE

titurel

12-07-2007, 12:56 AM

Why tar all aetheists with the same brush
Joseph Stalin.>>>>>>>>> John Lennon
I see no similarity
Why tar all Christians with a bigger brush
Jesus(was he a christian)>>>>>>>>>> Jehovas Witnesses
Jim Jones>>>>>>>>That mad baker family in America,Protesting,
At servicemens funerals against gays>>>>>>>>>Donny Osmond

Atheism is a broad field
Christianity, well thats even broader
Catholics
Protestants
J.W's
Mormons
&th Day etc..............

I'm sure Titurel is far removed from David Koresh
Although they both profess to know Christ

As is Adolph Hitler is from Mahatma Ghandi
Although they both were vegitarians!

Opposames

Thats a kop out soundbite

Bland Sloganeering!!!

POE
T
T
PeOPLE
That knocks things into shape somewhat, but one thing you left off your list was those CHristians who try not belong and do not want to belong anywhere in man's kingdom, whether it be in this or that organised religion, secretive society (for those that say Freemasonry isn't a secret society but a socity with secrets), cults, special interest groups, polical parties, etc. I, for example, want to be out and stayt out of all of those aspects of so-called civilisation. I don't even readily accept "Christian" as a label. I follow "The Way". It's "My Way", like the Frank Sinatra song.

And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, Ill say it clear,
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life thats full.
I've traveled each and evry highway;
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets, I've had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it my way.

I've loved, Ive laughed and cried.
I've had my fill; my share of losing.
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that;
And may I say - not in a shy way,
No, oh no not me,
I did it my way.

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!

cheeb

12-07-2007, 01:09 AM

Titurel,
You are probably onto something there,
why store up treasures in this place,
save them for a better day,
come the Glorious day,

Rejoice

anoninnyc

12-07-2007, 02:24 AM

december

12-07-2007, 02:27 AM

Free Masons claim to be atheists but then refer to the "great architect of the Universe" and "GOD"...

Where did you read such thing? I know some Freemasons personally and they told me that they are NOT atheists...

titurel

12-07-2007, 02:30 AM

My point is that anyone who claims that they know for certain if God exists, what god is, etc. is presumptuous. i am not so arrogant as to claim to know the truth about the origin of the world etc........ atheists and religious folk are both set in their views. i don't see the value in being wedded to a belief in something that you cannot know for sure.
It is also presumptious to say that anyone cannot know God. Gnosis is about knowing and it doesn't have to be justified to anyone, as long as criminality is not involved. Instead of complaining about others being set in their ways, ask yourself if you are set in yours. I ask myself that all the time, and adjust accordingly. We've each got to do it Our Way, like the Sinatra song, "MY WAY". This just egg throwing contest. Let's have a slightly higher standard of debate and move forwards, instead back.

anoninnyc

12-07-2007, 02:42 AM

It is also presumptious to say that anyone cannot know God. Gnosis is about knowing and it doesn't have to be justified to anyone, as long as criminality is not involved. Instead of complaining about others being set in their ways, ask yourself if you are set in yours. I ask myself that all the time, and adjust accordingly. We've each got to do it Our Way, like the Sinatra song, "MY WAY". This just egg throwing contest. Let's have a slightly higher standard of debate and move forwards, instead back.

i did not come here for a debate, i came here for a discussion, though that is not what you and cheeb seem to have in mind. i did not say that noone can know god...... but how do they truly know that their god experience is god and not their brain, chemicals, etc? knowing god is an experience, not a belief system. and i am sure that i am set in my ways but i do try to keep an open mind as best i can. i have no interest in a debate with you, you are free to think whatever you like as am i.

cheeb

12-07-2007, 02:49 AM

have you been listening to the american song book titurel,
fair play to you,
good stuff in them lyrics,

come the glorious day,

deliverance

titurel

12-07-2007, 02:52 AM

but how do they truly know that their god experience is god and not their brain, chemicals, etc?
That is what I am here to discuss (I accept that debate isn't always necessary, depending on your point of view). It's just that we have differing points of view, so I don't know what in every case. That's why I think it's more productive to focus on more tangible things that are more directly affecting us, like those in the organised religions, secretive societies, special interest groups, and political parties. Individuals who do not want to be part of Man's order of things and live peacefully with others, are not really the problem. We can also discuss God, or no God, even though the NWO people are not out of the way. The NWO people want to get God out of the way so they can have the world for themselves.

titurel

12-07-2007, 02:56 AM

have you been listening to the american song book titurel,
fair play to you,
good stuff in them lyrics,

come the glorious day,

deliverance
I love Sinatra's rendition of "My Way", which can still be to listen to others and be empathetic and comapssionate towards them as much as we can and yes, I love the american song book. It's an amazing collection. Another fab one is in the still of the night

In the still of the night
as I gaze from my window
at the moon in its flight
my thoughts all stray to you.

In the still of the night
while the world is in slumber,
oh, the times without number,
darling, when I say to you

"Do you love me as I love you?
Are you my life-to-be, my dream come true?"
Or will this dream of mine
fade out of sight

like the moon growing dim
on the rim of the hill
in the chill still of the night?

i am all i am

12-07-2007, 03:16 AM

You have not proved that pertinent scripture is not inspired by God who is not flawed.

G'day Titurel.

Proof is the burden of the one making the claim that any scripture is "inspired by God", or the 'Word of God'. There has never been any proof that God exists from any scripture, let alone from christians.

If you read the link below you may find that you gain some understanding...

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5129

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

titurel

12-07-2007, 03:44 AM

G'day Titurel.

Proof is the burden of the one making the claim that any scripture is "inspired by God", or the 'Word of God'. There has never been any proof that God exists from any scripture, let alone from christians.

If you read the link below you may find that you gain some understanding...

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5129

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

The burden of proof lies with any person making a positive claim, and you are positively claiming that God does not exist, but you have no proof. I do not claim to have proof because I claim that it's a personal inner experience and no one should be thought police to police like a policeman what is going on in personal mind, as long as it is not criminal. In that case, one gets probation and psychological reports and all that lark. So we should not police other's thoughts and act like the Catholic Inquisition and demand answers and proof under the intense heat of the noon day sun, in the desert. That's what one gets for breaking Masonic rules, but they are just rules of men.

WITH LOTS OF LOVE!

* with wavy arms flapping all over the palce *

i am all i am

12-07-2007, 04:55 AM

The burden of proof lies with any person making a positive claim, and you are positively claiming that God does not exist, but you have no proof. I do not claim to have proof because I claim that it's a personal inner experience and no one should be thought police to police like a policeman what is going on in personal mind, as long as it is not criminal. In that case, one gets probation and psychological reports and all that lark. So we should not police other's thoughts and act like the Catholic Inquisition and demand answers and proof under the intense heat of the noon day sun, in the desert. That's what one gets for breaking Masonic rules, but they are just rules of men.

WITH LOTS OF LOVE!

* with wavy arms flapping all over the palce *

G'day Titurel.

Your reasoning is flawed. You have made the "positive claim" that God exists, therefore the burden of proof is upon you.

To claim that something "does not exist" is a negative claim.

You claim that the bible was inspired by God through the writers of the bible...do you know who wrote the bible and what their thoughts were when they were writing it ???

Or are you merely being the "thought police" of others when you make your judgement as to others thoughts being inspired by your God ???

If so, the comment of "we should not police other's thoughts" is merely a self projection of what you are doing and are attempting to claim that others are doing by using the inclusive "we".

LOVE is qualifiable, not quantifiable, as it is infinite...how can you have "LOTS OF" something that is infinite ???

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

titurel

12-07-2007, 05:05 AM

G'day Titurel.

Your reasoning is flawed. You have made the "positive claim" that God exists, therefore the burden of proof is upon you.

To claim that something "does not exist" is a negative claim.

You claim that the bible was inspired by God through the writers of the bible...do you know who wrote the bible and what their thoughts were when they were writing it ???

Or are you merely being the "thought police" of others when you make your judgement as to others thoughts being inspired by your God ???

If so, the comment of "we should not police other's thoughts" is merely a self projection of what you are doing and are attempting to claim that others are doing by using the inclusive "we".

LOVE is qualifiable, not quantifiable, as it is infinite...how can you have "LOTS OF" something that is infinite ???

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

Unlimitless love, if you want be pedantic is the spirit of what I meant. I have always stated that God exists, IMO. Whenever I state that God exists, I say it in the spirit of my opinion. Therefore I am not trying to prove that God exists to anyone. It's simply called discussion. It's your opinion that God does not exist also, but if you want to assert as fact, then you need proof. I am not trying to thought police others. Unlimitless love, remember?

UNLIMITLESS LOVE!

* with wavy arms flapping all over the palce *

i am all i am

12-07-2007, 06:09 AM

Unlimitless love, if you want be pedantic is the spirit of what I meant. I have always stated that God exists, IMO. Whenever I state that God exists, I say it in the spirit of my opinion. Therefore I am not trying to prove that God exists to anyone. It's simply called discussion. It's your opinion that God does not exist also, but if you want to assert as fact, then you need proof. I am not trying to thought police others. Unlimitless love, remember?

UNLIMITLESS LOVE!

* with wavy arms flapping all over the palce *

G'day Titurel.

UN- prefix. not.

LIMITLESS adj. without limit or size.

Yes, I can see the "spirit of what" you "meant".

I offered no opinion on whether God exists or not.

There has never been any proof that God exists from any scripture, let alone from christians.

The above was my statement about the existence of God.

Apart from not understanding clearly what was written, you have failed to answer the questions that I asked.

Below is the post again so that you can see the questions without having to scroll back up the page.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

G'day Titurel.

Your reasoning is flawed. You have made the "positive claim" that God exists, therefore the burden of proof is upon you.

To claim that something "does not exist" is a negative claim.

You claim that the bible was inspired by God through the writers of the bible...do you know who wrote the bible and what their thoughts were when they were writing it ???

Or are you merely being the "thought police" of others when you make your judgement as to others thoughts being inspired by your God ???

If so, the comment of "we should not police other's thoughts" is merely a self projection of what you are doing and are attempting to claim that others are doing by using the inclusive "we".

LOVE is qualifiable, not quantifiable, as it is infinite...how can you have "LOTS OF" something that is infinite ???

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

titurel

12-07-2007, 04:06 PM

G'day Titurel.

UN- prefix. not.

LIMITLESS adj. without limit or size.

Yes, I can see the "spirit of what" you "meant".

I offered no opinion on whether God exists or not.

The above was my statement about the existence of God.

Apart from not understanding clearly what was written, you have failed to answer the questions that I asked.

Below is the post again so that you can see the questions without having to scroll back up the page.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

I think this discussion is being honed well! My view that God exists is based on personal experience rather than scientific proof because science can only prove that is which is only detectable through the five physical senses. So, I've never claimed to have proof, but regardig the scriptures, a part of my evidence is that the many, many prophecies have been fulfilled and many are being fulfuilled today, and many more are yet to take place, like the fall of the Churches, which will free up a lot of energy for those that seek it. Seek and we shall find! This is how I feel today..., so,

LIMITLESS LOVE!

* with wavy arms flapping all over the palce *

i am all i am

12-07-2007, 04:34 PM

.....a part of my evidence is that the many, many prophecies have been fulfilled.....

G'day Titurel.

What about the unfulfilled prophecies of the "messiah"...

Prophecies to Identify the Messiah, Which Jesus Does Not Fulfill:

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

Does this mean that you follow the teachings of a false messiah/prophet, as described in the book of Revelation ???

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titurel

12-07-2007, 05:09 PM

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.
But Jesus Christ did come to known, through his words and actions throughout the NT as, "God with us". That fact is more important than the word "Emmanuel", which was obviously used by Matthew to refer just to the meaning, rather than the name.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

The NT gives the genealogy for Jesus descending from David through both his mother and father, namely Mary and Joseph. By blood, Jesus was descended from David, through his mother, Mary... whilst on the other side, Jesus' genealogy through his father, Joseph, establishes his legal right to David's throne. Luke lists the maternal genealogy of Jesus going right back to Adam.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.[/quote]
I shall reply to this, about Isaiah 7:16, later tonight, as I have to go out.

informationx

12-07-2007, 05:49 PM

I dont label myself any designation anymore. Ive found it hinders the approach to knowledge. People end up getting defined rigidly by the titles they use.

People seem to consistently end up defending the labels, instead of looking into the matter at hand.

"Id better not read that book, because it contradicts my position, and defending my position is really important"

Dont have a position then all knowledge will be available to see. Then you can put the puzzle together.

If anyone asks me what I am, I just say "I'm me".

The desire to label things is so strong people just cant understand someone saying "I'm me"

But we get pulled all over the place by culture, society, the need to belong to a group etc, etc.

Cheers!

i am all i am

12-07-2007, 06:23 PM

[/COLOR][/B]
But Jesus Christ did come to known, through his words and actions throughout the NT as, "God with us". That fact is more important than the word "Emmanuel", which was obviously used by Matthew to refer just to the meaning, rather than the name.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

The NT gives the genealogy for Jesus descending from David through both his mother and father, namely Mary and Joseph. By blood, Jesus was descended from David, through his mother, Mary... whilst on the other side, Jesus' genealogy through his father, Joseph, establishes his legal right to David's throne. Luke lists the maternal genealogy of Jesus going right back to Adam.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.
I shall reply to this, about Isaiah 7:16, later tonight, as I have to go out.[/QUOTE]

G'day Titurel.

Immanuel was the name prophesised for the messiah, not Jesus.

Why are you attempting to change what you believe to be the inspired words of God to suit your own belief system ???

How do you know what Matthew was refering to and that it is not THE name of the messiah ???

Is it merely because Jesus is never once refered to as Immanuel throughout the bible ???

One of the self proclaimed names of Jesus was the 'Morning Star', also the same name used to describe Lucifer.

How do you reason out that Jesus and Lucifer have the same name as declared by Jesus in the bible ???

If the NT translation does describe the genealogy I am sure that you can give the quote. Whether the NT does or not is of little relevance, as the Mount Sinai bible is the oldest known bible and there are over 14,800 contradictions and mistakes with the bibles in circulation today comparing them to the Mount Sinai bible. It also doesn't deal with the fact that Joseph was not the father of Jesus, as Mary supposedly immaculately conceived.

So, who wrote the bible ???

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titurel

13-07-2007, 02:44 AM

Immanuel was the name prophesised for the messiah, not Jesus.
It was a descriptive name used to describe what Christ would represent. IMO, you're trying to make a mountain out of a little molehill!

Why are you attempting to change what you believe to be the inspired words of God to suit your own belief system ???
I'm not changing what I believe. You're imagining it!

One of the self proclaimed names of Jesus was the 'Morning Star', also the same name used to describe Lucifer. How do you reason out that Jesus and Lucifer have the same name as declared by Jesus in the bible ???
Yes, Jesus Christ is the true morning star and Satan is the imposter!

If the NT translation does describe the genealogy I am sure that you can give the quote.
The NT gives two genealogies, one is given in Matthew I, for the ancestry of Jesus through Joseph and the other is given in Luke 3, for the ancestry of Jesus through Mary.

Whether the NT does or not is of little relevance
Yes, it is relevant because you asked the questionand I answered it.

as the Mount Sinai bible is the oldest known bible and there are over 14,800 contradictions and mistakes with the bibles in circulation today comparing them to the Mount Sinai bible.
It used to be said that the Bible couldn't possible accurately transmit its message through time, because of copying errors and scribal political insertions. This was a prevalent academic (i.e. "Bible scholar") belief in the 19th century and early 20th century. Then the dead sea scrolls were discovered, with an entirely intact "Book of Isaiah". (23 foot long leather scroll.) In fact, every book in the OT except the Esther is there in varying degrees of intactness. And guess what. The Qumran Isaiah text was almost identical to the Masoretic texts of the 10th century which map to the OT. The "errors" are primarily either spelling or style, with occasional "lacunae" which are small holes in the leather that obliterate a single letter where they occur. Matching the Qumran Isaiah to the Masoretic text, which is nearly identical, the occasional lacunae caused missing letter could be mapped. In no case -- zero % -- did any of the trivial differences change the message of Isaiah at all. Nada. Zip. A detailed scholarly (and nitpicky) analysis of the Qumran Isaiah can be found here:

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-1.htm

Therefore, based on what we know of oral cultures, plus what we now know about the accuracy of written transmission based on comparison to the Qumran texts, it is no longer a valid academic view that we can't know what they originally meant.

God promised to preserve his Word:

"The words of the LORD are pure words,
Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
Purified seven times.
You shall keep them, O LORD,
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.
The wicked prowl on every side,
When vileness is exalted among the sons of men." - Psalm 12:6-8

It also doesn't deal with the fact that Joseph was not the father of Jesus, as Mary supposedly immaculately conceived.
This following article by O.E. Bernhardt explains that Mary's conception was immaculate in the spiritual sense of the word, rather than the physical...

The Virgin Birth

We must realise that Mary was prenatally chosen to be the earthly mother of Jesus and already brought with her all the qualities that would help her in fulfilling her role and when the time drew near for her to conceive, she experienced the Annunciation. From that moment onwards her life changed and it was only concentrated in one direction "to be allowed to experience a Divine grace."

Through the Annunciation the Light wanted to bring about this condition of her soul so as to drive back from the very outset all base instincts, and create the soil upon which a pure physical vessel (the child's body) could come into being for the Immaculate spiritual conception. Through this exceptionally strong psychic adjustment Mary's physical conception, in accordance with the Laws of Nature, became an "immaculate one." Every conception arising out of pure love and a heartfelt looking upwards to the Creator, in which the sensual instinct is only an adjunct and not the basis, is an immaculate conception in the physical sense. In reality this occurs so seldom that there was every justification for laying special stress upon it. The relegation of sensual instincts into the background was assured by the fact of the Annunciation, which for this reason was especially mentioned.

This event had the effect that whatever Mary was doing was completely out of pure love of soul because her intuitions were completely pure. Her joys after the Annunciation can be gleaned from the Bible in the Magnificat; Luke 2:46-55. The developing body in her womb therefore was conceived out of pure love of soul. This made her conception physically immaculate. With purity of thought reigning, nothing else could be the result.

If two people of opposite sex come together with the purest love of the heart for each other and with purity of thoughts on both sides then the product of their coming together or rather the process of their coming together is immaculate. Surely it cannot occur to us that the coming together of every woman and man is a sin and as such is dirty. If two people of opposite sex come together with the purest love of the heart for each other surely that cannot be a sin and everyone should consider it and judge whether this is a sin or not, otherwise every motherhood would have to be considered as sinful and every meeting between two people of opposite sex, even if these two have the purest love for each other, would also be a sin.

Mary's immaculate physical conception provided the basis for an immaculate spiritual conception. Before going further however, the concept of incarnation must be explained. Incarnation simply means the entrance of a soul into a body. The soul enters into a body meant for it and takes full possession. For those who believe in the after-life and in the existence of a soul this should not be difficult to understand.

Incarnation occurs roughly in the middle of pregnancy and this corresponds to the first movements of the developing body in the womb. In the case of the human soul, the latter stays in the vicinity of the expectant mother and at the appropriate time it enters into the developing child's body and this process gives the first shocks to the baby's body which makes it move and which the mother can feel. This movement continues from this moment onwards until the child is born.

The Incarnation of Jesus was an Immaculate Spiritual one because it was an incarnation from out of the Light, out of God, not just any incarnation.

In the case of Jesus, it was not a question of the incarnation of one of the many waiting human souls or spirit-sparks who wish or are compelled for the sake of development to live a life on earth. Here it was a process of radiation from God, given out of love to mankind erring in darkness, which was strong enough to prevent the direct connection with Primordial Light ever being broken.

Jesus therefore went through a normal process of birth. There was therefore no need to change any of the Laws. His physical growth was normal, His appearance and everything else was normal. The nature of Jesus therefore should not have been a matter for much debate. His nature did not lie in His physical body which was just a tool He needed but in His essence, His core which He had derived from God. This was what allowed Him to do all He did, though He did not look different from any other man. He had even said that He had not come to overthrow the Laws but to fulfil them which meant that He had come to adjust Himself to the existing Laws in Creation (Matthew 5:17). If the Laws of God stipulated a normal process of birth and development then He was ready to adjust Himself to that.

So, who wrote the bible ???
The Bible was written by men and inspired by God, IMO!

john white

13-07-2007, 02:50 AM

The Bible was written by men and inspired by God, IMO!

Which is both the beauty and the flaw of scripture!

titurel

13-07-2007, 02:57 AM

Which is both the beauty and the flaw of scripture!
Scripture is not flawed because God is not flawed!

john white

13-07-2007, 02:58 AM

Scripture is not flawed because God is not flawed!

Therefore man is not flawed becuase god is not flawed, therefore original sin is a false doctrine...

However, back in reality....

titurel

13-07-2007, 03:01 AM

Therefore man is not flawed becuase god is not flawed, therefore original sin is a false doctrine...

However, back in reality....
I agree that God is not flawed but man is. That is why we live in the world of so many delusions, what Icke calls the Matrix.

john white

13-07-2007, 03:12 AM

I agree that God is not flawed but man is. That is why we live in the world of so many delusions, what Icke calls the Matrix.

And therefore flawed man cannot perfectly translate The Infinate One: all scripture is the attempt to understand: no scripture is the complete understanding: hence all scripture is flawed, yet profoundly beautiful. Here is the unity of all Religion beyond the division and manipulation of the illuminati: there is a God, and "He" does talk to us, pushing the limits of what we can understand throughout time

Still, i'll save further comment for the scripture thread. Sorry, been tied up today. I did you a huge reply last night but it fubared and I havn't got round to remaking it

titurel

13-07-2007, 03:16 AM

And therefore flawed man cannot perfectly translate The Infinate One: all scripture is the attempt to understand: no scripture is the complete understanding: hence all scripture is flawed, yet profoundly beautiful. Here is the unity of all Religion beyond the division and manipulation of the illuminati: there is a God, and "He" does talk to us, pushing the limits of what we can understand throughout time
You're pedling the old new Age nonsense about ONENESS again without recognising that dogma is part of the NWO agenda. The Prophets were instructed what to write, they didn't "translate God". You're ideas are pure waffle, IMO.

john white

13-07-2007, 03:30 AM

You're pedling the old new Age nonsense about ONENESS again without recognising that dogma is part of the NWO agenda. The Prophets were instructed what to write, they didn't "translate God". You're ideas are pure waffle, IMO.

Here's a thought for you titurel:

I'm sure you have satisfied yourself that Oneness is a part of the New World Order Agenda: though how deep a process you went through to make that conclusion is another question...

But you see, you show the limit of your ability to comprehend... of course Oneness appears to be a part of the NWO agenda...but in fact, the NWO agenda is just a part of Oneness

How could it be otherwise?

The Oneness of Consciousness is the totality of everything: there is no false division: there is no duality of manipulation: there is no forced rejection preventing harmony

Another thought for you:

Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden

Eve munches the apple, gains (well, if you can call it gains) the knowledge of Good AND Evil

What consciouness did she have before hand, where she saw no duality?

Therefore:

What consciousness did man have BEFORE the fall?

Threeness? Do you think?

Or was it... Oneness

The grace of the lost paradise

My eternity is My creation, I have created it for thee. Make it the garment of thy temple. My Unity is My handiwork; I have wrought it for thee; clothe thyself therewith, that thou mayest be to all eternity the revelation of My everlasting being

titurel

13-07-2007, 04:20 AM

Here's a thought for you titurel:

I'm sure you have satisfied yourself that Oneness is a part of the New World Order Agenda: though how deep a process you went through to make that conclusion is another question...

But you see, you show the limit of your ability to comprehend... of course Oneness appears to be a part of the NWO agenda...but in fact, the NWO agenda is just a part of Oneness

How could it be otherwise?

The Oneness of Consciousness is the totality of everything: there is no false division: there is no duality of manipulation: there is no forced rejection preventing harmony
I beg to differ! The political NWO agenda is an agenda in and of itself. You are either for it or against. Your option is to embrace it in so-called ONENESS, a ONENESS that I wish to be no part of because I don't support the Elite's NWO agenda.

Another thought for you:

Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden

Eve munches the apple, gains (well, if you can call it gains) the knowledge of Good AND Evil

What consciouness did she have before hand, where she saw no duality?

Therefore:

What consciousness did man have BEFORE the fall?

Threeness? Do you think?

Or was it... Oneness

The grace of the lost paradise
There was ONENESS in Eden, but that was before the Fall. I've nothing against ONENESS and returning to a state of innocence, but in our world of subsequent polarity, I choose not to be part of the negative polarity... I choose not to be part of the Reptilian's NWO agenda!

john white

13-07-2007, 04:39 AM

I beg to differ! The political NWO agenda is an agenda in and of itself. You are either for it or against. Your option is to embrace it in so-called ONENESS, a ONENESS that I wish to be no part of because I don't support the Elite's NWO agenda.

Ah but titurel, this is not about fighting... it is about healing Heal the imbalance: heal the sickness. And to do that, those who wish to opress must learn that to opress another is to opress oneself

There was ONENESS in Eden, but that was before the Fall. I've nothing against ONENESS and returning to a state of innocence, but in our world of subsequent polarity, I choose not to be part of the negative polarity... I choose not to be part of the Reptilian's NWO agenda!

Well that's some important progress we have made. I'll let you contemplate the wisdom of the creators original design. What changed in that time from the moment before Eve bit the apple till the moment after Eve bit the apple?

Why only Eve herself of course: the fall was a shift in perception, nothing more... and a shift in perception brings us back

Understand that it is not the spoon that moves: it is you that bends

Why did God cast them out of the Garden? Why did God not let them back?

Could it have been becuase man has to learn that it is up to him to restore the inner grace he cast away? Oh the beauty of free will...

titurel

13-07-2007, 04:46 AM

Ah but titurel, this is not about fighting... it is about healing Heal the imbalance: heal the sickness. And to do that, those who wish to opress must learn that to opress another is to opress oneself
LOL! John... I agree it's not about fighting... it's about using words to expose the Reptilian's agenda to the Light, so that it can no longer advance in darkness in order to oppress us. You should focus yourself on bringing light to people, instead of uniting them with the political NWO agenda.

Well that's some important progress we have made. I'll let you contemplate the wisdom of the creators original design. What changed in that time from the moment before Eve bit the apple till the moment after Eve bit the apple?

Why only Eve herself of course: the fall was a shift in perception, nothing more...
It was more than a "shift of perception". It was the beginning when darkness and corruption entered the world.

and a shift in perception brings us back

Why did God cast them out of the Garden? Why did God not let them back?

Could it have been becuase man has to learn that it is up to him to restore the inner grace he cast away? Oh the beauty of free will...
We have to unlearn what has been programmed into us. We have to break free from the mind control that is keeping us locked in the Matrix and that can only be done through us being no part of the NWO agenda and not being ONE with it.

john white

13-07-2007, 04:57 AM

Heres another thought for you (last for tonight):

From our finite perspective of being stood on a single point on the earth, we experiance a time of light followed by a time of darkness, day then night, day then night...

But from the perspective of the whole of the earth, it is perpetual day AND perpetual darkness: an unending day and an unending night... for half the planet is always bathed in the sun: to say "I embrace the day!" is to deny the night: to say "I embrace the night" is to deny the day: to embrace either is to never be whole: and yet the polarities exist in perfect harmony

Yet from a higher perception of that harmony, Light and Dark themselves are absolutely illusions, defined only by the instrument of the body... white light is simply vibrations higher than our body can decode... darkness is simply vibrations slower than our body can decode

But you may say "Hah! I have seen the daylight, I have seen the Son in the Sky"

Yet you never have: they are recreations in your brain of electrical signals, nothing more: the same brain contained within your skull, where no light has ever penetrated, and never will... and yet we live in a world which is a riot of colours, hues and tones

The mind is fooled by duality... consciousness knows only clarity

We have to unlearn what has been programmed into us. We have to break free from the mind control that is keeping us locked in the Matrix and that can only be done through us being no part of the NWO agenda and not being ONE with it.

Unlearning to be a robot seems like the path to return to Grace to me

You must unlearn what you have learned... only then will you KNOW

Anders Lindman

13-07-2007, 05:03 AM

an atheist believes that god does not exist

an agnostic does not know whether god exists or not. i am an agnostic i suppose as how can i truly know? i will find out when i die perhaps.

Yes, an agnostic doesn't know. I know that there is something driving the universe, or at least the universe is animating itself somehow. That in itself is a kind of 'God'.

People are trapped in belief systems. Many people for example have the FIRM and ABSOLUTE belief that they are going to die at some older age. I don't have that firm belief. Almost all people seem to be certain that they are going to die. They talk about "When I die..." and "I will know at the moment of my death". That's just a belief! No one actually knows whether he or she will ever die. If we use the past to predict the future, then sure, it certainly seems certain that we are all going to die. But it's an incomplete observation to merely extrapolate the past to predict the future.

i am all i am

13-07-2007, 08:49 AM

i am all i am

13-07-2007, 01:16 PM

Winning isn't the reason that I posted what I did. It was posted to see what common ground we have so that we can move beyond the debate instead of merely circling around each others personal perspective.

I agree that nothing can be proven because of subjectivity. Proof is merely a way of saying that this is the way that I view things. Also, everything is in a constant state of change, so it merely becomes a perspective of how I see things at this moment, which will change in the next moment, and the description that I used would become redundant.

Here's a quote from Heretics of Dune by Frank Herbert that sums this up perfectly...

By your belief in singularities, in granular absolutes, you deny movement, even the movement of evolution! While you cause a granular universe to persist in your awareness, you are blind to movement. When things change, your absolute universe vanishes, no longer accessible to your self-limiting perceptions. The universe has moved on beyond you.

First Draft, Atreides Manifesto:
Bene Gesserit Archives.

Thanks for your thoughts Miles an it's great to see you around the forum again. I love you, be well brother.

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titurel

13-07-2007, 03:59 PM

G'day Titurel.

Perhaps we can approach this in a different manner as your reply to me shows that you either didn't understand what I had written, or are merely being defensive and reacting with your reply.

Here is what I believe God or whatever name you would like to use is...

ALL THAT IS.

There is nothing that is not a part of ALL THAT IS. It is the Sum Totality of everything that was, is, or ever will be.

ALL THAT IS is infinite and the only thing that is impossible for ALL THAT IS, is that there is something that is impossible. All is possible because ALL THAT IS already is, and there is nothing seperate from the infinite ALL THAT IS.

ALL THAT IS is LOVE.

ALL THAT IS/LOVE is expressed and experienced within the our 'reality' through a triune aspest. That is...

Past / Present / Future

Here / In Between / There

Action / Word / Thought

Body / Soul / Mind

Joy / Love / Truth

This would correlate with your understanding from the bible for example, as, in the begining was the Word...Love / Soul / In between / Present...and also, here is the time for wisdom and intellect, let him that have understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man, and his number is 666...6 being the creative number in numerology, when lived positively it is creative, when lived neagtively it is destructive, Joy / Love / Truth being the positive aspects and Pain / Fear / Lies being the negative aspects. 6 + 6 + 6 = 18, 1 + 8 = 9, and nine is the three-fold number that represents humanity through idealism, responsibility and ambition.

Now, can you tell me that the 'God' that I know and understand is different from the 'God' that you know and understand ???

If so, how ???

If not, can you please explain why you require something that is outside of yourself (eg, the bible) to be connected to the infinite ALL THAT IS/LOVE ???

Whichever translation that you read from, the bible is completely unnecessary to communicate with ALL THAT IS/LOVE.

For what purpose would ALL THAT IS/LOVE restrict itself from communicating directly with a part of itself ???

How can one part of ALL THAT IS/LOVE ever be 'more', 'better', etc., than any other part of ALL THAT IS/LOVE, when each and every part is ALL THAT IS/LOVE expressing and experiencing itself ???

For I say to you, that whatever you do unto the least of me, you do unto me.

This is because we are ALL ONE, for we are all individuated aspects of ALL THAT IS/LOVE. The only 'disconnection', or 'fall', is from attempting to perceive ALL THAT IS/LOVE from only one source, when it is ALL sources, both the external and internal and all In Between, for ALL THAT IS/LOVE is the Source of All Creation.

ALL THAT IS/LOVE is communicating with you NOW.

Do you have eyes to see and ears to here ???

Are you aware that you always were, always are and always will be communicating with ALL THAT IS/LOVE, moment to moment, as you express and experience that part of ALL THAT IS/LOVE that you have chosen to BE ???

For I say to you that I AM, the TRUTH and the WAY, that I have chosen to express and experience ALL THAT IS/LOVE by BEING, ALL I AM, for I AM ALL I AM, and this is true for each and every ONE of us, for we are ALL individuated aspects of ALL THAT IS/LOVE.

You are part of the Sum Totality that makes up ALL THAT IS/LOVE Titurel.

What part are you BEING that adds to the Sum Totality of ALL THAT IS/LOVE ???
I disagree that God is all that is because man has sufficient free will to go his own way and create his own reality and that reality may not be fitting with God's. Therefore, he will have no option, when the time comes, to spew out all that man has created that is rotten and corrupt in the world and that includes those that are the architects of those rotten and corrupt works because they are attached to them by their own thoughts and deeds. Therefore, you forgot the matter of free will, in your equation, even though man does not have total free will. God will bring everything to light and everything shall be revealed by fire:

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." - 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

"Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?" - 1 Corinthians 4:18-21

"Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." - 2 Corinthians 5:5
"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." - 2 Peter 3:3-13

i am all i am

13-07-2007, 04:19 PM

I disagree that God is all that is because man has sufficient free will to go his own way and create his own reality and that reality may not be fitting with God's. Therefore, he will have no option, when the time comes, to spew out all that man has created that is rotten and corrupt in the world and that includes those that are the architects of those rotten and corrupt works because they are attached to them by their own thoughts and deeds. Therefore, you forgot the matter of free will, in your equation, even though man does not have total free will. God will bring everything to light and everything shall be revealed by fire:

G'day Titurel.

Mmmmmm...on one hand you say that man has free will and on the other hand you say that man doesn't have free will, which is it ???

You say that God is a "he", and that "he will have no option"...wow, now God doesn't have free will either huh.

Nope, you either didn't understand or didn't read the part about the choice between Truth / Love / Joy and Lies / Fear / Pain. Choice denotes free will.

Now, you say that you do not follow organised religion, but you continually quote from the bible, which was put together by organised religion. What do you know from your own experience ???

Oh, you also missed some questions in the post as well.

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titurel

13-07-2007, 04:44 PM

Mmmmmm...on one hand you say that man has free will and on the other hand you say that man doesn't have free will, which is it ???
I did not say, in my post that man does not have free will. I said that man has a certain degree of free will. Read what I wrote again.

You say that God is a "he", and that "he will have no option"...wow, now God doesn't have free will either huh.
By God "having no option", I mean that if the world is going to be rid of rottenness and corruption. The operative word being the word "if". In other words, what I wrote was not absolute because I'm sure God could ignore the corruption in the world if he wanted to, and leave it to the devices of Reptilians, but he has said otherwise.

Now, you say that you do not follow organised religion, but you continually quote from the bible, which was put together by organised religion. What do you know from your own experience ???
I do sometimes write what I know from personal experience but you're wrong to state the Bible is an organised religion. It is not an organised religion because, in the Bible, organised religion is adversely judged, just as you adversely judge it. Organised religion is the product of the Reptilian agenda and they have used the Bible in order to desecrate it and misrepresent what it says. For example, God says, in the Bible that he does not live in any building built by man, and yet man erects buildings and calls them "houses of God", and that in itself goes against the Bible.

i am all i am

13-07-2007, 05:16 PM

I did not say, in my post that man does not have free will. I said that man has a certain degree of free will. Read what I wrote again.

.....man has sufficient free will to go his own way and create his own reality.....even though man does not have total free will.....

Maybe you should read your own words again and realise what it is that you wrote.

By God "having no option", I mean that if the world is going to be rid of rottenness and corruption. The operative word being the word "if". In other words, what I wrote was not absolute because I'm sure God could ignore the corruption in the world if he wanted to, and leave it to the devices of Reptilians, but he has said otherwise.

Therefore, he will have no option, when the time comes, to spew out all that man has created that is rotten and corrupt in the world and that includes those that are the architects of those rotten and corrupt works because they are attached to them by their own thoughts and deeds.

Nope, you didn't write the word "if" there.

I do sometimes write what I know from personal experience but you're wrong to state the Bible is an organised religion. It is not an organised religion because, in the Bible, organised religion is adversely judged, just as you adversely judge it. Organised religion is the product of the Reptilian agenda and they have used the Bible in order to desecrate it and misrepresent what it says. For example, God says, in the Bible that he does not live in any building built by man, and yet man erects buildings and calls them "houses of God", and that in itself goes against the Bible.

Do you actually read what others write ???

I said that the bible was put together by organised religion.

G'day Titurel.

You still haven't answered the questions and continue to make references to the bible and not from personal experience.

If the bible is so important to you and you believe the words written in it to be the words of God, why do you bother to come on the forum and read words that you do not believe are the words of God ???

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titurel

14-07-2007, 04:03 AM

You still haven't answered the questions and continue to make references to the bible and not from personal experience.

If the bible is so important to you and you believe the words written in it to be the words of God, why do you bother to come on the forum and read words that you do not believe are the words of God ???

The books of the Bible were collated by organised religion, yes, but the Bible was not written by organised religion and that is the pertinent point.

Regarding the "if" word... it was implicit in what I wrote, as I explained because what I wrote was based on the premise of God fulfilling his promises to rid the world of rottenness and corruption. God fulfills what he promises but only time will tell about that. Like I said, there's no other way other dimensional beings that are ruling over our planet can be gotten rid of and I can tell you that from personal experience. You haven't produced an alternative solution to the problem. Do you have one? If so, please explain in detail how it can be achieved.

As I explained in another thread, I come to this forum primarily to glean and share information about the NWO agenda. However, if I see falsehoods or misleading comments, intentional or unintentional, written about the Bible, or on any subject, for that matter, I will comment!

i am all i am

14-07-2007, 06:50 AM

The books of the Bible were collated by organised religion, yes, but the Bible was not written by organised religion and that is the pertinent point.

I have already asked you who wrote the bible. You haven't answered the question.

So if you do not know, how can you declare that it was not written by organised religion ???

If you do know, who was it that wrote the bible ???

Regarding the "if" word... it was implicit in what I wrote, as I explained because what I wrote was based on the premise of God fulfilling his promises to rid the world of rottenness and corruption.

I disagree that God is all that is because man has sufficient free will to go his own way and create his own reality and that reality may not be fitting with God's. Therefore, he will have no option, when the time comes, to spew out all that man has created that is rotten and corrupt in the world and that includes those that are the architects of those rotten and corrupt works because they are attached to them by their own thoughts and deeds.

Nope. You didn't use the word "if" and you didn't base it on "God fulfilling his promises". You based it on man having free will and "that reality may not be fitting with God's".

You are either lying or do not read what you yourself write.

God fulfills what he promises but only time will tell about that. Like I said, there's no other way other dimensional beings that are ruling over our planet can be gotten rid of and I can tell you that from personal experience.

And what is your personal experience that you have had that makes you declare that "there's no other way" out of the infinite possibilities that we have to create with ???

it's about using words to expose the Reptilian's agenda to the Light, so that it can no longer advance in darkness in order to oppress us.

If you believe that "there's no other way" except "the premise of God fulfilling what he promises", then why would you have declared that "it's about using words to expose the Reptilian's agenda" ???

You haven't produced an alternative solution to the problem. Do you have one? If so, please explain in detail how it can be achieved.

What would be the point of explaining to you another possible way when you have already declared that you believe that "there's no other way" ???

As I explained in another thread, I come to this forum primarily to glean and share information about the NWO agenda. However, if I see falsehoods or misleading comments, intentional or unintentional, written about the Bible, or on any subject, for that matter, I will comment!

And what makes you the authority upon matters pertaining to the bible ???

Once again, do you know who wrote it ???

Do you have an understanding of numerology ???

If not, how can you understand the section of the bible called 'Numbers' ???

You made contradictory statements about man having free will, one or both of those are obviously "falsehoods or misleading comments". Will you comment about the "falsehoods or misleading comments" that you have made as readily as you will about what you judge others to have written ???

Will you also comment upon the contradictory statements that are written within the bible ???

Scripture is not flawed because God is not flawed!

Perfection, by definition, would create perfectly, so, if God is perfect, how can God create something that is imperfect ???

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james777

14-07-2007, 07:15 AM

I've been gone for quite some time and this is the first post that I've read since I last was logged in. I have come to a very interesting and somewhat important conclusion. It is; All this talk, debate, arguing...ect....is 100% pointless!! We are alll just humans born here, on earth, and we believe what we believe. It doesn't matter what you think or I think because no one knows anything except that they are here in this present moment. Past and Future mean nothing and are nothing. Knowledge is nothing except what others have thought and thought comes from humans and humans know nothing because we're very simple, self-centered beings. If anyone really cared about anything, we would show it through our love for each other, but we don't. This is an evil world, full of evil people and evil thoughts and evil actions. All we do is doom ourselves and hope that our belief is the one that is going to take us through to the other-side.

Life is nothing but a drop in the ocean. Death is nothing but the end of life, what happens next is completely unknowable in our physical sense. We have to use our spirits and our authority here on this planet to discern for ourselves what is what and even when we do that, we still know nothing.

titurel

14-07-2007, 03:08 PM

I have already asked you who wrote the bible. You haven't answered the question.

So if you do not know, how can you declare that it was not written by organised religion ???

If you do know, who was it that wrote the bible ???

Nope. You didn't use the word "if" and you didn't base it on "God fulfilling his promises". You based it on man having free will and "that reality may not be fitting with God's".

You are either lying or do not read what you yourself write.

And what is your personal experience that you have had that makes you declare that "there's no other way" out of the infinite possibilities that we have to create with ???

If you believe that "there's no other way" except "the premise of God fulfilling what he promises", then why would you have declared that "it's about using words to expose the Reptilian's agenda" ???

What would be the point of explaining to you another possible way when you have already declared that you believe that "there's no other way" ???

And what makes you the authority upon matters pertaining to the bible ???

Once again, do you know who wrote it ???

Do you have an understanding of numerology ???

If not, how can you understand the section of the bible called 'Numbers' ???

You made contradictory statements about man having free will, one or both of those are obviously "falsehoods or misleading comments". Will you comment about the "falsehoods or misleading comments" that you have made as readily as you will about what you judge others to have written ???

Will you also comment upon the contradictory statements that are written within the bible ???

Perfection, by definition, would create perfectly, so, if God is perfect, how can God create something that is imperfect ???

Yes, I have answered the question about who wrote the Bible. The Bible was written by chosen men who were inspired by God.

Regarding the "if" word"... as I stated, it was premised on the promise that God has given, and he fulfils his promise. That is why I said God has no option because if he subsequently chooses to remove the Reptilians from the world scene,, then he will not have kept his word.

You wrote:

"What would be the point of explaining to you another possible way when you have already declared that you believe that "there's no other way" ???"

Because I know that you disagree with my view on this issue, so I want to know what your alternative view is in respect to how nefarious other-dimensional beings can be dealt with, but you're using poor excuses to avoid answering the difficult question.

You wrote:

"Do you have an understanding of numerology ???"

Yes, I do. I'm not saying I can answer any question on the subject but please fire away if you have a point to raise in respect to it...

And to recap, no, I have not made any contradictory comments, and as of yet, I have found no contradictory comments in the Bible.

You wrote:

"Perfection, by definition, would create perfectly, so, if God is perfect, how can God create something that is imperfect ???"

Because man has used what free will he has to create his own false realities.

i am all i am

14-07-2007, 05:14 PM

.....and as of yet, I have found no contradictory comments in the Bible.....

G'day Titurel.

Here are a few of the contradictions within the bible...

Should we kill?

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."

Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."

I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."

Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."

Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.

Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."

Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."

Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."

Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

vs.

Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."

John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Shall we make graven images?

Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."

Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."

Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."

I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."

Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

vs.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?

Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."

I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

vs.

Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."

Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

Should we own slaves?

Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."

Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."

Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."

Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."

Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.

Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."

Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."

Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)

Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."

Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."

Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.

Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."

Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."

Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."

Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."

Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."

Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

vs.

John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]

Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."

Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."

I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."

Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."

Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."

I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.

Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."

Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?

II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

vs.

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."

Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."

Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."

See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

vs.

John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."

It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."

Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

vs.

Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."

Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."

Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

vs.

Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

vs.

Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

vs.

Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

vs.

II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

vs.

II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

vs.

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?"

Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

vs.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."

Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."

Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

vs.

I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)

II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."

Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."

Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

vs.

Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."

Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."

II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."

Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."

I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

If you would like more contradictions pointed out that you have missed in the bible then I will be happy to provide you with them.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

i am all i am

14-07-2007, 05:52 PM

Yes, I have answered the question about who wrote the Bible. The Bible was written by chosen men who were inspired by God.

And who were these men ???

You do not know who they were.

Who told you that they were "chosen men inspired by God" ???

Did God speak to you and tell you this ???

Regarding the "if" word"... as I stated, it was premised on the promise that God has given, and he fulfils his promise. That is why I said God has no option because if he subsequently chooses to remove the Reptilians from the world scene,, then he will not have kept his word.

You are repeating yourself and this is a lie. Read the words that you originally wrote.

You wrote:

"What would be the point of explaining to you another possible way when you have already declared that you believe that "there's no other way" ???"

Because I know that you disagree with my view on this issue, so I want to know what your alternative view is in respect to how nefarious other-dimensional beings can be dealt with, but you're using poor excuses to avoid answering the difficult question.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!

You haven't answered questions continually.

Here's a tip for you...infinity has infinite ways.

So your statement of "there's no other way" shows your lack of understanding of what constitutes infinity.

You wrote:

"Do you have an understanding of numerology ???"

Yes, I do. I'm not saying I can answer any question on the subject but please fire away if you have a point to raise in respect to it...

Excellent. Then you understand what the book of Numbers really means then and can describe what it means.

You wrote:

"Perfection, by definition, would create perfectly, so, if God is perfect, how can God create something that is imperfect ???"

Because man has used what free will he has to create his own false realities.

If you reread the question you will realise that you haven't addressed how a perfect God can create something that is imperfect, you have said how you believe man does.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

titurel

15-07-2007, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by titurel http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=76499#post76499)
Yes, I have answered the question about who wrote the Bible. The Bible was written by chosen men who were inspired by God.

And who were these men ???

You do not know who they were.

Who told you that they were "chosen men inspired by God" ???

Did God speak to you and tell you this ???
The men were obviously the various named writers of the Bible and IMO, they were inspired by God. It's the only book that comprehensibly exposes the Reptilian agenda in such depth from the beginning to the end, and from every conceivable angle.

Regarding the "if" word"... as I stated, it was premised on the promise that God has given, and he fulfils his promise. That is why I said God has no option because if he subsequently chooses to remove the Reptilians from the world scene,, then he will not have kept his word.

You are repeating yourself and this is a lie. Read the words that you originally wrote.
It's not a lie and the reasons you've given so far have not proved otherwise!

You wrote:

"What would be the point of explaining to you another possible way when you have already declared that you believe that "there's no other way" ???"

Because I know that you disagree with my view on this issue, so I want to know what your alternative view is in respect to how nefarious other-dimensional beings can be dealt with, but you're using poor excuses to avoid answering the difficult question.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha !!!

You haven't answered questions continually.

Here's a tip for you...infinity has infinite ways.

So your statement of "there's no other way" shows your lack of understanding of what constitutes infinity.
LOL, you're still trying to avoid the question! Answering that "infinity has infinite ways" is utterly meaningless. What do you mean by infinity? How, in your opinion, can infinity remove other-dimensional Reptilian Beings from influencing men on earth trying to fulfil the politial NWO agenda? Go on... answer the question properly!

You wrote:

"Do you have an understanding of numerology ???"

Yes, I do. I'm not saying I can answer any question on the subject but please fire away if you have a point to raise in respect to it...

Excellent. Then you understand what the book of Numbers really means then and can describe what it means.
I haven't a clue what you're talking about... you'll have to be more specific...

You wrote:

"Perfection, by definition, would create perfectly, so, if God is perfect, how can God create something that is imperfect ???"

Because man has used what free will he has to create his own false realities.

If you reread the question you will realise that you haven't addressed how a perfect God can create something that is imperfect, you have said how you believe man does.
I answered your question and your reply failed to counter what I wrote, which is why you've replied with utter garbage! :)

titurel

15-07-2007, 01:20 AM

G'day Titurel.

Here are a few of the contradictions within the bible...

Should we kill?

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."

Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."

I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."

Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."

Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.

Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."

Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."

Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."

Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

vs.

Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."

John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Shall we make graven images?

Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."

Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."

Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."

I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."

Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

vs.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?

Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."

I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

vs.

Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."

Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

Should we own slaves?

Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."

Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."

Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."

Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."

Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.

Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."

Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."

Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)

Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."

Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."

Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.

Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."

Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."

Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."

Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."

Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."

Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

vs.

John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]

Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."

Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."

I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."

Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."

Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."

I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.

Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."

Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?

II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

vs.

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."

Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."

Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."

See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

vs.

John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."

It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."

Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

vs.

Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."

Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."

Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

vs.

Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

vs.

Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

vs.

Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

vs.

II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

vs.

II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

vs.

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?"

Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

vs.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."

Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."

Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

vs.

I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)

II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."

Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."

Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

vs.

Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."

Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."

II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."

Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."

I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

If you would like more contradictions pointed out that you have missed in the bible then I will be happy to provide you with them.

If you want to spam the thread with a litany of quotes taken out of context that you've lazily copied and pasted from another Web site, then you deserve to have have fallen for the delusion so that you believe the lies expressed above. If you had of produced may be two or three of your apparent contradictions as examples, I could have responded and shown you why they aren't contradictions at all. It's patently clear you've done absolutely no in depth research yourself to cross check the above information is true and accurate because with simple searches with Google, you can find solutions to all the above propaganda you posted. Let's take one example from above:

Is God omnipotent?

Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?"

The above is a rehetorical question to which the answer is simply no! No where does the verse say anything is too hard for God and that is confirmed by Christ's words that "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

All you've proved is how gullible and prejudiced you are!

i am all i am

15-07-2007, 06:01 AM

I haven't a clue what you're talking about

G'day Titurel.

The fact that you have stated you "haven't a clue" is your first step to removing the spell of dogma that entraps you. May your awakening continue and understanding finally reach past the spell that you are under.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

titurel

15-07-2007, 03:50 PM

The fact that you have stated you "haven't a clue" is your first step to removing the spell of dogma that entraps you.
I said I hadn't a clue what you were talking about. It's you that brought up Numbers with no explanation of what you're getting at.

May your awakening continue and understanding finally reach past the spell that you are under.
It's you that are under the spell of mind control. May your awakening continue.

james777

16-07-2007, 06:03 AM

I said I hadn't a clue what you were talking about. It's you that brought up Numbers with no explanation of what you're getting at.

It's you that are under the spell of mind control. May your awakening continue.

Ya, don't waste your time with this 'I Am All I Am' guy, he's just a prejudiced bigot that only enjoys cut and paste conclusions and dodges 'direct' questions repeatedly. This is one of those 'don't cast your pearls before swine' things..........just 'wipe your feet as a testimony against him' and move on. You'll be beatin this 'dead horse' forever.

i am all i am

16-07-2007, 06:16 AM

WHEN PAIRED OPPOSITES DEFINE YOUR BELIEFS,
YOUR BELIEFS WILL IMPRISON YOU.

What is TRUTH ? . . . .THAT THE ONENESS IS ALL !!!

What is JOY ? . . . . . .ALL THAT THE ONENESS IS !!!

What is LOVE ? . . . . .THE ONENESS THAT IS ALL !!!

What is LIFE ? . . . . . ALL THAT IS THE ONENESS !!!

WHO AM I ? . . . . . . .THE ONENESS THAT ALL IS !!!

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

fuknut

17-07-2007, 08:00 PM

Ya, don't waste your time with this 'I Am All I Am' guy, he's just a prejudiced bigot that only enjoys cut and paste conclusions and dodges 'direct' questions repeatedly. This is one of those 'don't cast your pearls before swine' things..........just 'wipe your feet as a testimony against him' and move on. You'll be beatin this 'dead horse' forever.

G'Day James

Seems to me like a personal attack on IAAIA

Not good at all

Rather stick to the topic and ask intelligent questions :confused:

With Love

:D

james777

18-07-2007, 04:40 AM

G'Day James

Seems to me like a personal attack on IAAIA

Not good at all

Rather stick to the topic and ask intelligent questions :confused:

With Love

:D

Hey....sounds like you're attempting to tell me what to do. I'm just passing advice based on wisdom I've gained through experience. If it was a personal attack on IAAIA it woulda been more like, "FUCK IAAIA, he's a fuckin asshole that doesn't know what the fuck his dumbass is talking about".....but clearly it wasn't that, so perhaps you can just mind your own business and follow your own advice.

i am all i am

18-07-2007, 07:35 AM

G'Day James

Seems to me like a personal attack on IAAIA

Not good at all

Rather stick to the topic and ask intelligent questions :confused:

With Love

:D

G'day Fuknut.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Well, as he says he follows the 'Word of God' as written in the bible, then it would be no great surprise that he acts in the way that he does considering the above quote of the 'Word of God', which is hardly a one off occurence within the bible.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

fuknut

18-07-2007, 08:28 AM

Well, as he says he follows the 'Word of God' as written in the bible, then it would be no great surprise that he acts in the way that he does considering the above quote of the 'Word of God', which is hardly a one off occurence within the bible.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

G'Day IAAIA

Well up to now no one has answered the question of "Who wrote the B.I.B.L.E."

Clearly he is following a blind leader ..........

With Love

:D