Is it time to allow assisted dying?

[bicycle]

SEVEN years ago, Roger Carr sat at his wife's bedside and watched as she swallowed a cocktail of drugs they both knew would kill her.

Alison Carr was suffering from cancer, was in constant pain and had made the decision to end her own life, and to end it with dignity.

She and Roger, who had been married for 30 years, had spoken many years before about what they would do if either of them became terminally ill. They had decided that suicide would be an option, and that should that day ever arrive, neither would act to prevent the other taking the fatal step.

Mrs Carr, then 55, had been diagnosed with cancer of the chest wall in 2001, which spread to her spine. When doctors could not tell her how long she had to live, she decided not to take chemotherapy treatment, but to be cared for at home by Roger with the help of his mother.

In November 2002, Alison decided that she wanted to put an end to her suffering. Mr Carr, now 62, from Haslingfield, knew she was "fading away", but says he tried to put her off by suggesting that the village bonfire night was coming up, and that they could have their grand-daughter, Tess, over to see it. His wife agreed, and they spent the evening with the little girl. But the following night, Mrs Carr decided the time had come. With Roger sitting nearby, she took an overdose of medication that included morphine tablets and Temazepam.

Mr Carr said: "I just accepted it when Alison said she had decided she had had enough. It must have been a terrible decision to make and it wasn't down to me to say it will be better tomorrow (Thursday, 19 March)."

The couple had agreed Roger would not call an ambulance until he was certain Alison had died, so he waited before he made the 999 call. He explained his wife had taken an overdose and that he sat with her while she did it. "The operator asked did I know what I was saying and I just said well, yes, I was there."

The call led to him being arrested, locked in a Cambridge police cell and questioned for six hours. In the end, no charges were brought.

In the next few days, 100 MPs - one of them Cambridge MP David Howarth - will seek to force a parliamentary debate on assisted dying, and Mr Carr is one of the many thousands of people backing their efforts. The MPs have signed an Early Day Motion (EDM), which expresses concern about the choices some terminally ill adults are being forced to make "due to a lack of safeguarded assisted dying legislation in the UK".

Sarah Wootton, chief executive of the organisation Dignity in Dying, said: "This call for a debate comes at a time when the Government is modernising the law on assisted suicide via the Coroners and Justice Bill.

"MPs will have the opportunity to debate the issue during the report stage of the bill next week, and peers will have the same opportunity after the Easter break. The Coroners and Justice Bill aims to modernise the 1961 Suicide Act, but crucially fails to make the distinction between maliciously encouraging a suicide and compassionately assisting a terminally ill person who wants to die.

"The 100 MPs who have signed the EDM agree there is a problem with the current law, which forces terminally ill adults to travel abroad to die, to ask loved ones or doctors to risk their liberty and help them to die, or to attempt to take their own lives."

Mr Carr said: "I'm absolutely behind what Dignity in Dying is trying to do. My wife and I had an agreement that should either of us become terminally ill, was in unbearable pain, and had no real quality of life, it would be a case of not interfering with their wishes.

"The concern people have about assisted dying is that it might be abused, and that people might be coerced. But at Dignitas, the Swiss clinic where people go to end their lives, they are only allowed to proceed after having been interviewed by a doctor there. Why can't we have the same system here?

"Another argument is that a cure may come along. But it's no good saying that at a time when one is simply not available.

"I'm not saying everyone should do this - only that if someone decides to do it, then they should have the right to do so. If people left their pets in the kind of suffering that some human beings are forced to endure, they would be prosecuted for cruelty."

Opinion polls have shown that four out of five people support a change in the law on assisted dying, Dying in Dignity says.

Mr Howarth said: "I am not in favour of euthanasia and I am not in favour of allowing assisted suicide in all circumstances, but I do believe that in the case of terminally ill people who are able to make their own decisions, the law ought to be more compassionate.

"I do not believe that families in those tragic circumstances should be threatened with prosecution."

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_cambridge/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=400534

[dlb2007]

for fuck sake, no.... no more fucking death laws please... i dont want to be assisted to die by my government, i want to make the bastards give me the best health service availible to keep alive

[moondancer]

for fuck sake, no.... no more fucking death laws please... i dont want to be assisted to die by my government, i want to make the bastards give me the best health service availible to keep alive

Yeah... good point.

Although, watching someone you love die slowly, drugged up and in immense pain, makes you want the choice

:confused:

[krakhead]

Is it time to allow assisted dying?

Yes.

[hunter77]

Yes.

amen

[moondancer]

Yes.

must admit.. in the those circumstances, I think I do agree. When you know all the treatment has to be stopped and they just get given increased levels of morphine n crap...you want to be able to help them on their way. traumatic

[simplify]

Its a very slippery slope.....it can be abused for selfish reason. How do we prevent that from happening. I have given the subject much thought over the years, & cannot come up with a definitive answer.

[moondancer]

Its a very slippery slope.....it can be abused for selfish reason. How do we prevent that from happening. I have given the subject much thought over the years, & cannot come up with a definitive answer.

I know what you mean too

:eek:

although at the time, if someone had asked me if I would ever question this, I would have said no, straight off.

I'll stop posting.. im not exactly helping :D

[lewi]

Would you see your pet suffer ? so why watch a Human suffer ?

[steevo]

Is it time to allow assisted dying?

Yes but only in extreme circumstances. And it must be done totally transparently. I have to say though, I dont like the idea of a bunch of evil bastards deciding if it's ok for a human being to be terminated. I dont really like the idea of assisting in the death of anyone REALLY to be honest.

[pri01]

As far as I believe from the moment we are born and are bonded into slavery (birth certificate), we are a financial resource until the day we die. Our health or lack of it provides a great financial contribution towards the world elite coffers. Charities such as cancer research would find their CEO out of a job if they actually found a cure for all cancers. That's not to dismiss the positive intentions of the people who raise money for them. However, I remember when my grandmother died of cancer when I was 14 years old my thinking that in 20 years time, they would find a cure. I'm very much an oldie now and as such, 34 years on and cancer is still a big killer. They will only allow us to die on their terms and only when they say so. We get no choice in the matter I'm afraid.

[metacomet]

If you have chronic illness and want to die to end the pain: stop taking your medication. Stop getting treatment. Stop eating. Let the body die.

Killing yourself is writing a massive check that your ass will be sorry to cash on the other side. You go to a very dark and lonely place and your soul takes a huge step back.

Die the right way. Swallowing pills or ending your life voluntarily is not the right way.

I would rather die breathing hot ashe in a tarpit, with all my bones broken, slowly burning and starving to death then kill myself. This is how strongly I believe in spiritual repercussions. It's about doing the right thing to pay your dues and get out of the system of karma... killing yourself does not pay any dues and throws you deep into karma.

I honestly don't mean to offend anyone when I say: suicide is a cowards way out.

It is perfectly fine for old women and frail human beings to be 'cowardly'. It's their decision. It's the wrong decision, in my opinion.

[anahata]

Yes I do. Imagine the paperwork though :eek:

[kblood]

for fuck sake, no.... no more fucking death laws please... i dont want to be assisted to die by my government, i want to make the bastards give me the best health service availible to keep alive

That option wont be going away. You still have the choice to live as a vegetable for several years or living a life of pain and lying in bed being kept alive only by machines. Those that dont want such an artificial life should have the choice not to though.

I dont mind people wanting to live or those that dont want to see loved ones die. Thats no excuse to support torture though. Especially when people cant stay alive without extreme health care, the choice to die ought to be there. Of course it shouldnt be the choice of anyone else than the person living the life in question.

When it comes to coma and being braindead, the the choice is for the family I guess. Probably isnt torture to keep someone braindead or in a coma alive though.

[dlb2007]

I would rather die breathing hot ashe in a tarpit, with all my bones broken, slowly burning and starving to death then kill myself.

agreed, how death is delt to us is part of the purification of the soul, we should accept our death as it is given us.

Better to be purified before death than after, thats what i say.

[dlb2007]

That option wont be going away

U sure about that, Govt wont have to pay pension, sickness benefit etc... few quid for a injection and the pension crisis is over, give the contract to a major pharmasutical company, creates jobs.. good for the ecconomy all round

[simplify]

agreed, how death is delt to us is part of the purification of the soul, we should accept our death as it is given us.

Better to be purified before death than after, thats what i say.

this is the Buddhist way......through enduring our dying days is purifying some aspect of our karma. This is the part that keeps me from agreeing to any law that says we should die, when someone else says so.

[moondancer]

If you have chronic illness and want to die to end the pain: stop taking your medication. Stop getting treatment. Stop eating. Let the body die.

Killing yourself is writing a massive check that your ass will be sorry to cash on the other side. You go to a very dark and lonely place and your soul takes a huge step back.

Die the right way. Swallowing pills or ending your life voluntarily is not the right way.

I would rather die breathing hot ashe in a tarpit, with all my bones broken, slowly burning and starving to death then kill myself. This is how strongly I believe in spiritual repercussions. It's about doing the right thing to pay your dues and get out of the system of karma... killing yourself does not pay any dues and throws you deep into karma.

I honestly don't mean to offend anyone when I say: suicide is a cowards way out.

It is perfectly fine for old women and frail human beings to be 'cowardly'. It's their decision. It's the wrong decision, in my opinion.

yes, ive read about this before... :( karma can be a bitch :rolleyes:

[krakhead]

If you have chronic illness and want to die to end the pain: stop taking your medication. Stop getting treatment. Stop eating. Let the body die.

Killing yourself is writing a massive check that your ass will be sorry to cash on the other side. You go to a very dark and lonely place and your soul takes a huge step back.

Die the right way. Swallowing pills or ending your life voluntarily is not the right way.

I would rather die breathing hot ashe in a tarpit, with all my bones broken, slowly burning and starving to death then kill myself. This is how strongly I believe in spiritual repercussions. It's about doing the right thing to pay your dues and get out of the system of karma... killing yourself does not pay any dues and throws you deep into karma.

I honestly don't mean to offend anyone when I say: suicide is a cowards way out.

It is perfectly fine for old women and frail human beings to be 'cowardly'. It's their decision. It's the wrong decision, in my opinion.

I can only assume you've never seen a loved one die slowly and painfully once treatment has been removed?

[grenadene]

Euthanasia and assisted suicide are different concepts.

The moral dilemma of 'is suicide right?' (karmic consequences etc) is an interesting discussion but the decision ultimately lies with the individual concerned - it is their body right?

[sk8erboi]

If you have chronic illness and want to die to end the pain: stop taking your medication. Stop getting treatment. Stop eating. Let the body die.

Wouldn't ceasing to take medication, ceasing treatment, and starving oneself effectively amount to suicide anyway? These actions involve making a decision to die sooner than you otherwise would, so does euthanasia. Starvation is a more unpleasant way to go about it than a lethal injection but it amounts to the same thing...

[dlb2007]

this is the Buddhist way......through enduring our dying days is purifying some aspect of our karma. This is the part that keeps me from agreeing to any law that says we should die, when someone else says so.

I dont know if its catholic theology also, it is a personal belief that does not oppose my Catholic faith, infact I believe it enhances it. Considering the Crucifixion of Christ and the redemption of mankind from this aspect helps my Catholic faith, it also alludes to Catholic Doctrine on purgatory that is the purification of the soul before going to heaven. Infact Catholics are encouraged to unite their physical sufferings throughout their entire life not only at death with the Crucified Christ for the remission of sins for those who are none believers.

I can only assume you've never seen a loved one die slowly and painfully once treatment has been removed?

Yes, my grandad, it took over a year for him to die, he was passing shit out of his penis, he was in exreeme pain, on higher and higher doses of morphene. He never asked to die, lying in bed, semi conscious or unconsicous for months on end, eventually he opened his eyes wide stared at the corner of the room pointed, smiled and died.

[krakhead]

With all due respect dlb, now I know you are Catholic, there is no point whatsoever in continuing any discussion on this matter due to us having reality tunnels that oppose each other in a most extreme manner.

[dlb2007]

Just saying, no need to get all pissy about it, ffs

[creamspyder]

Ok, so what is that?
A long time ago, I vaguely remember people used to 'die in their beds' at home, as a matter of course.

And, at the risk of being ridiculed for not researching this, -but hey, live dangerously sometimes ;), - isn't 'starving' a NATURAL response to an end of life situation?

The times in my life when I haven't eaten for days (various reasons!)... I have noticed a heightened sense of detachment/perspective shift, maybe, just guessing, like a 'high'?(have no experience of drugs).

Pain relief however is a different issue altogether in my opinion. Much of what we take as 'acceptable' from the 'medical profession' is barely disguised torture and cruelty.

So, my conclusion.... I would say 'no' to 'assisted death' as a 'society' thing.

[metacomet]

Wouldn't ceasing to take medication, ceasing treatment, and starving oneself effectively amount to suicide anyway?

Good point.

In my opinion - no. The body dies of it's own volition if you decide to stop eating or allow an illness to take over.

To swallow pills or pull a trigger or hand yourself etc. is to kill the body of your own volition, through an act of self-violence. This is an incredibly hefty topic when it comes to karma.

Starvation is a more unpleasant way to go about it than a lethal injection but it amounts to the same thing...

Starvation is one of the worst ways to die. The last week is terrible. But you become delirious and disconnected by that point anyway. As mentioned above by the fast... I have done it, others here have. It's not comparable to actually starving yourself to death :\ that is a serious experience.

Starvation is the the most natural way to die, though. I would much rather drown or fall off a cliff, however.

[antinwo]

As a previous poster said we don't allow dogs to suffer so why humans??? I think if someone has had enough and is very ill then they should have the choice whether to live or die. I know if I was terminally ill then I would want someone to switch me off. I certainly would not want to suffer.

[pepsirat]

I have mixed feelings about this. I think if your in extreame pain and your going to die whats wrong with ending the suffuring. But i know if it became law people will abuse it big time. Relatives talking these people into it and even doctors. And sometimes the doctor is wrong and you might recover but if you kill yourself you will never get the chance.

So im still thinking about it.

[kblood]

I dont know if its catholic theology also, it is a personal belief that does not oppose my Catholic faith, infact I believe it enhances it. Considering the Crucifixion of Christ and the redemption of mankind from this aspect helps my Catholic faith, it also alludes to Catholic Doctrine on purgatory that is the purification of the soul before going to heaven. Infact Catholics are encouraged to unite their physical sufferings throughout their entire life not only at death with the Crucified Christ for the remission of sins for those who are none believers.

Yes, my grandad, it took over a year for him to die, he was passing shit out of his penis, he was in exreeme pain, on higher and higher doses of morphene. He never asked to die, lying in bed, semi conscious or unconsicous for months on end, eventually he opened his eyes wide stared at the corner of the room pointed, smiled and died.

So if its possible to keep someone alive without his or her heart and lungs for years, it is the only right choice to make, to do so? In the future there will probably be even better artificial body parts. In the end it might only be our brains that needs sustenance and everything else could be artificial, we could live forever, and according to your faith then saying no would be asking for suicide?

Yes, you grow old, there are years of unpleasent living, but some people live in worse situtations than your granddad. All thanks to medical health care advancements. In my country there are just about no medical bills for anyone, instead we have much higher taxes. So when that day comes, most people would be obliged to live and artificial sustained life. Lung fails? Respirator, heart fails get an artificial one. Where does it stop?

[nofuture]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/390490/Mercy-killers-are-hijacking-the-suicide-bill-Lord-Carey.html

Mercy killers are hijacking the suicide bill
By Lord Carey, Former Archbishop of Canterbury

[cleopatraxxx]

for fuck sake, no.... no more fucking death laws please... i dont want to be assisted to die by my government, i want to make the bastards give me the best health service availible to keep alive

hello dlb2007 and everybody,

personally as i see it:

this comes very handy to the governments to pass such a law BECAUSE WITH THE FAKE SWINE FLU, THIS WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO SUICIED THEMSELVES AT HOME. once in a "terminal illness",(LIKE SWINE FLU) , this will make the illuminati WIPE their hands off any accusations of killing people. on the contrary, with the desperation of a pandemic, it saves the governments costs of giving any healthy solution to patients, instead they will now be allowed to kill themselves...
+with elecromagnetic beams sent via HAARP, making humans react to these waves abnormallyu by activating a specific frequency, the reaction to which is FEAR and PANIC, many groups of public can be easily domintaed and led to suicide. ...
anyway, the darkest times are approaching very fast from all the four corners of this ONE and ONLY blue planet.
:(

[limelady]

We're all grown-ups here to lets get honest. Compassionate doctors are assisting death ALL the time already.....nothing is said and 'nobody notices', it just happens when it needs to.

When a person is terminal, organs are starting to shut down, they're on morphine, and obviously only days away from dying a needlessly slow and agonising death, the morphine shunt gets a few extra pumps, and normally the patient and their family are all relieved of the burden of further horrendous and unnecessary suffering.

IMO, this is EXACTLY as it should be, and doctors should no longer have to carry the burden of a possible murder charge for doing the right thing by their patients. When a person has suffered long enough and is being mentally tortured by the extreme indignity of a decaying - yet still living - body, why would compassionate, loving people NOT give them that little bit of extra 'pain relief' to allow them to go in peace and with some remaining dignity? To do less than this when we have the means to prevent this sort of suffering, can hardly be consistent with infinite love and compassion......to allow futile suffering to continue is more in line with reptilian thinking, surely?

When you've watched a loved one slowly slipping away and suffering to this point, you know in your heart its the only humane thing to do.....anything less is unacceptable in a civilized society with spiritual values. I'm so very grateful to the doctors who looked at us family members knowingly as they called upon their own spiritual courage to give those few extra pumps to my loved ones so they could leave this realm without further ado. We all knew it was right - we all knew it was time. If I am suffering and it is my time, I can only hope somebody cares enough to call upon their own spiritual courage to do the right thing by me also.

Compassionate oversight and commonsense are the keys to humanity being free to die in dignity at the right time, and lest we forget we are all infinite consciousness, so its only our body 'shell' we are shedding prior to returning home.

[nesht]

An excellent post Limelady, I couldn't agree more.

[pri01]

I think doctors do this routinely Limelady as they know high doses of opioids cause breathing to stop. Personally, I remember my mother who was terminally ill was at the stage where she was never going to recover. I and my family wanted so much for her suffering to end, and it was when she was put on a morphine pump that her death accelerated. If I am ever in the same position, I would hope that they do the same for me.

[creamspyder]

There was a time when more often than not, people used to die a natural death, often in their own bed, "passed away, in their sleep".
Where does all this 'pain' come from - and need for 'assistance' as a matter of course???? I find it strange, and can't accept that this is as it should be. Pharmaceuticals may be an answer, but one thing I am sure about, they are supplying a "fast death" which is from the same stable as "fast food" - it is the wrong path, for the dying, and their loved ones.

[curtaincat]

when my sister was dying from cancer and full of chemo shit, she had a choice given by the doctors to come back for a few hours and then die permanently...

apparently, they could , with the use of life saving equipment and drugs bring her back for just a few hours? :confused::eek:

that was freaky, she chose to say no, so we said our 'goodbyes '
' to her, and , well, i just said 'seeya'

it was a horrible experience for the living left behind. the living are the ones freaking out and missing their loved ones.

the dying seem to know something. it was awful but i have seen her in my dreams heaps of times and she is fine and having a ball, in fact, having a laugh and telling us to laugh , too.

this is true what i just said.

[apekteina lordosis]

i doubt it is nothing more than a control issue for them aka it is just another way they stamp their authority on the masses.

[batou]

For me, asking if people should be allowed to choose to die is in the same league as asking if people should be allowed medicine to live. Neither is natural. You artificially prolong or shorten your lifespan. It's your choice, so do it. It's not an easy decision to make and any benevolent supernatural force should understand your choice.

[lauren_almighty]

We're all grown-ups here to lets get honest. Compassionate doctors are assisting death ALL the time already.....nothing is said and 'nobody notices', it just happens when it needs to.

When a person is terminal, organs are starting to shut down, they're on morphine, and obviously only days away from dying a needlessly slow and agonising death, the morphine shunt gets a few extra pumps, and normally the patient and their family are all relieved of the burden of further horrendous and unnecessary suffering.

IMO, this is EXACTLY as it should be, and doctors should no longer have to carry the burden of a possible murder charge for doing the right thing by their patients. When a person has suffered long enough and is being mentally tortured by the extreme indignity of a decaying - yet still living - body, why would compassionate, loving people NOT give them that little bit of extra 'pain relief' to allow them to go in peace and with some remaining dignity? To do less than this when we have the means to prevent this sort of suffering, can hardly be consistent with infinite love and compassion......to allow futile suffering to continue is more in line with reptilian thinking, surely?

When you've watched a loved one slowly slipping away and suffering to this point, you know in your heart its the only humane thing to do.....anything less is unacceptable in a civilized society with spiritual values. I'm so very grateful to the doctors who looked at us family members knowingly as they called upon their own spiritual courage to give those few extra pumps to my loved ones so they could leave this realm without further ado. We all knew it was right - we all knew it was time. If I am suffering and it is my time, I can only hope somebody cares enough to call upon their own spiritual courage to do the right thing by me also.

Compassionate oversight and commonsense are the keys to humanity being free to die in dignity at the right time, and lest we forget we are all infinite consciousness, so its only our body 'shell' we are shedding prior to returning home.

i agree with you, limelady but yet again, i feel that it's not our decision to make.
life is precious.

but i guess that when you have seen somebody you love dying and suffering unnecessarily that your perspective changes. my grandmother passed away a couple of years ago after battling cancer. i watched it destroy her personality and saw her body become weak and fragile. In the last week that she was alive i was hoping that her death would come soon because she was suffering and she was miserable. she died 5 days later and it was a relief. i always say that she died along time before she physically did because the cancer changed her in so many ways that she became unrecognisable. she wasn't the same person.

[limelady]

i agree with you, limelady but yet again, i feel that it's not our decision to make.
life is precious.

Well lauren, if its not our decision to make, whose is it? You see I believe we are all responsible for our own lives, and I don't give my personal sovereignty (right to control my own life/death) away to any personified (religious or otherwise) 'all knowing' god I don't believe in. I'd rather trust my family members to do what is right for me.

but i guess that when you have seen somebody you love dying and suffering unnecessarily that your perspective changes.

Absolutelt, its known as 'getting real' about what's real. :)


my grandmother passed away a couple of years ago after battling cancer. i watched it destroy her personality and saw her body become weak and fragile. In the last week that she was alive i was hoping that her death would come soon because she was suffering and she was miserable. she died 5 days later and it was a relief. i always say that she died along time before she physically did because the cancer changed her in so many ways that she became unrecognisable. she wasn't the same person.

Yes, this is what we observe when we watch a loved one we have known all our lives slowly dying from the ravages of physically debilitating terminal illness. You instinctively know when their spirit is trying desperately to be free of the body that holds them captive in this realm. There is nothing kind about allowing them to suffer on to the very end when the end is so inevitable and so often cruel. As has been mentioned already on this thread, we'd not knowingly allow a beloved pet to suffer in this way, so why should a beloved family member have to suffer so horribly?

IMO, when things get to end stage illness, the most loving thing we can do for them becomes our final gift to them in this life, that of setting their spirit free to go and be at peace. :)